We recently had a discussion over here on the topic of how combat is best handled in a role playing game. As you know, Divine Divinity took the action approach and much as it may surprise you, this wasn't necessarily the preferred approach of several developers over here, me included. Personally, when it came to combat, Fallout was the game where I had the most fun but of course, Fallout combat was also turnbased. So the question is - which in your opinion was the RPG that had the best combat system ?

Lar

Fallout was really good, and I like both action-based and turn-based rpg's. Probably the most fun system for me is Strategy Rpgs, a la Final Fantasy Tactics or the Shining Force games.

For a regular rpg I think a turn-based system that utilized movement rate, terrain, cover from terrain, and pretty much everything around (within reason) would be pretty pimp. I like thinking and taking my time rather than twitch gameplay. And if I could duck behind that barrel and pop up to take shots with my crossbow it would do a world of good for my immersion into the game.

I really like DD too though, so as long as it's a good action game I have no problems with that.

This won't be a popular choice, but I love BG2. I loved that I could pick when and where it would stop...for example, after a spell was cast, so I could ready another. Or after a weapon became unusable. I think having all these options was more important because I had a large party I was dealing with. If you are only controlling one character, it's not so crucial, but controlling a whole party is virtually impossible in real time.

Worst was PoR2. Awkward combat, poor targeting, and yucky interface that made me feel like I was working with an MS Office application.

i haven't played many games, but i like the fighting style of games like divinity and diablo. the style of final fantasty (which i haven't played, but i have watched someone else play for hours) seemed boring and never made sense to me. no one takes turns in a real life battle.

For single character games, action-based combat is good. For parties, I liked the time-based combat of Grandia 2 / Final Fantasy VII. With options for when to pause or automatically continue, you can adjust turn/time based combat to cover a wide range of preferences.

I used to say I liked the RT style of gameplay because it kept you on your toes. This is still true but by playing games such as BG2, IWD1 & 2 I love the way you can pause combat there. Without the pause the complexity, coupled with my lack of dexterity would make the game very hard.
The control style of the combat system has to suit the game style. For the last 2 months I've been playing Age of Wonders 2. The turn-based combat is very well implemented there and makes it easy to control large armies.

Generally, as I get older, <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mage.gif" alt="" /> I prefer pausing the action.

For action: Diablo II. The fast action and overwhelming odds.
For turn based: Septerra Core. The need for learning your enemy.

For action i liked Divine Divinity(oh wait...i'm still playing it)
And for turnbased
i like Divine Divinity cuz....it's always my turn! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shame.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

I LOVED Fallouts TB combat. I am a big fan of turned based games. However Fallout's TB combat fit well for it. If Baldurs Gate or say Divine Divinity were turned based... I do not think they would have been much fun to play. Each battle system for each game seems to have worked well for each one.

I like turned based games, however the market just isn't all to accepting to turn based games. (I am still shocked that ToEE will be turn based) <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> Not that I am complaining.

So far I liked Baldurs Gate's real time + pause. But again that worked with the engine and the game very well.

I prefer turn based, too and like switching to real time if the monsters are easy (BG, NWN, IWD, Div). Though I found those movement points in Fallout a bother, specially when I was in trouble.

Septerra Core had turnbased with a time factor, I liked that

Wizardy 8 was great for me, I sometimes spent 15 min. pondering/discussing about the best combat tactic.

I'm a gamer more interested in the plot than in slaughtering, so turn-based takes out the pressure for me.
Kiya

If monsters don't come in herds I can manage realtime combat (Darkstone, Ultima series)

The only thing I really hate, has nothing to do with combat, are fix saving pts, bah.
Kiya

Considering, how "ancient" turn-based play is seen in some people's minds, I'm always surprised how much I like it ! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

The best classic games are turn-based. Can you imagine chess in RT? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

The best combat system is no combat at all. But I don't think that's a popular one <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />
I prefer turn-based combat over real-time combat, but it shouldn't take too long. If every fight takes endless time, I get bored, because I want the story to continue and not the fight.
I also liked the combat system of summoner (that chain thingie) but I don't know if it would fit to a game like divinity.
The system I like the least is the Diablo/Divinity approach. Either a tactical approach (i.e. turnbased), or something that does need "Real-Life-Skills" like in Daggerfall (and Silver I think), but just clicking isn't good. What does clicking have to do with fighting?

I loved the Fallout battle system, you had enough time to think about your next move. Also the ability to target bodyparts was a nice option as wel <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

You can combine Turn based with realtime though, Fallout : Brotherhood of steel tactics pulled that one off. You still had Action points and such but they regenerated during what they called Continious turn based.

I agree. I'm sick of RTSs that let you "build a civilization", but when you study the tech tree you find out that everything eventually supports your military. That's why I like Emperor. Your citizens are worth more than your army. The army is there to protect your people, not kill others (although it is an option).

I have always liked turn based games as long as there is not a long gap in between. Return to Krondor is definately up there as far as the combat system is concerned like to be close to the action,games that mix both TB and RT are the best. I loved BG and IWD because they could be made TB to a point. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/devil.gif" alt="" />

I love BG too, and this is the best combat sytem. And I like when I control a party.
BG RLZ.

I must say that I like strategy more than hack&slash. The best combat system for me was HOMM3's which you play turn based combat with a general and up to seven armies of monsters.
I like to think and find a way to defeat my opponent. I like it to be competitive.

for real time : diablo 2, i liked the combat of that game better than that of div div, because its way faster.
In div div it can be quite dangerous when larger groups attack you.

for TB : Fallout 2, but of course <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />
great game <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

i dunno which is better, maybe the way kiya said, intergrate both options and make it able to switch between them, but i think it will not be easy, nog in the style of fallout anyway.

I like the two ways, but in divinity and diablo case i don't like wait to kill the enemy, and it's good when you havy many enemies to kill in one second with your superior attack(high lvl) and your good things(armors, weapons, etc), once time i was playing final fantasy 5, and my friend saw that and told me: what is that? You put your enemy in the wall and trow rocks (when you have more personages) because of the turns. I said: Not exactly, the enemy is extra strong. And he said: don't had fun.

but the gameplay could be adapted so its tb..
but i cant really imangine a game like div div in turn based.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/offtopic.gif" alt="" /> in a next game you could ofcourse put more of those funny conversations, like the one in the wastelands, and more cool speech options like in fallout.
And maybe more control over your play style, like becming evil, because some players like that possibility <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/offtopic.gif" alt="" />

Would a more or less accurate (and obvious) summary be:

TB is cool but if the fight is easy, you have to be able to switch to real time - and TB only makes sense if you control more than one character ?

If that corresponds with your views, how would you then handle the switch to real time ? (E.g. regenerating action points)

Lar

The switch could be like in FFX where you see a single character whilst in real time and then when combat begins you are taken to a separate combat screen ie. the close up of the battle as was mentioned the Shining Force games on the Mega drive did this very well (for its day). <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/think.gif" alt="" />

I cannot imagine how this kind of "swithing" would / should work - because I don't remember having seen it ...

Maybe the press of one key, let's say F7 ?

maybe something you can insert in game options.
like : real time combat when opponents are in a number of # and # lvls lower then the playing character.

but i do agree that TB only works when you work with parties.
not like in div div 1 with a single heroe <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

turnbased is boring!!

my suggestion: advanced point and click, where when you click on the monster's legs you'll do a swing to the legs with yer sword if you click on the belly you will stab, doing different ways of damage.
With magic for example a low level freeze spell will only freeze the limb you clicked.

like in Dungeon Siege - it's real time and you have more than one character, and i like JVB idea - more funny conversations(it's so funny <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/freak.gif" alt="" /> )

Yes turn based games offer alot of strategy that is lacking in alot of games. And you DEFINATELY need to have an ability to switch to real time if you are in an easy battle. I still love turn based battle even if it is with multiple characters (i.e. Fallout, get the HELL out of the way from Tycho so he wont shoot you in the back <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" /> )

Switching to real time should just be an option in the game. A default of real time should be the default. For those that LIKE turn based, add that option. Even when you have turn based on, and you know you have an easy battle, allow the option to switch to real time easily.

Sound good?

But in all reality, any turned based RPG is I think a marketing disaster and doomed to failure. The majority of people who buy games want action action action! And would like to see lest story and cut scenes. WE who like the above are the small minority. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cry.gif" alt="" /> Thankfully we have a game like <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/div.gif" alt="" /> that atleast caters to both. (minus the turn based)

wow I need to shut up now... sorry. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Tuen-based is like Chess for me ! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/delight.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/badsmile2.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

i think azraell might have a point there..
but i still think TB should be intergrated <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />
just for the hardcore fans <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/silly.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wave.gif" alt="" />

I don't think that real-time / turn based should be switched in the options. Games that allow you to switch that in the options always give me the impression, that the developers didn't know what they wanted, or wanted to please everyone.
If you consider switching between real-time and turn-based (e.g. for a single character / an easy fight), you should somehow integrate the switching into the game. I don't know how to do this, the switching should feel natural, not like clicking on a "switch plate". If I have an example or an idea to illustrate what I'm talking about, I'll post again.

you mean something like you need a certain amount of points to be able to switch???

RAZE YOU PLAYED GRANDIA II that was the bes fighting system ever in an RPG...so far as I am concerned anyway. For multi character that is....if larian were to invent such a game *wink* that would be great...for one character the d2 style is awesome............

Did any of you play Arcanum? I believe it has combat system you are dreaming of <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

I have played BG, BG2, IWD, IWD2, Diablo, Diablo2, Planescape:Torment, Neverwinter Nights, Dungeon Seige and Morrowind ( to name a few of the CRPGs). And those all had action combat. I have never played a game that was turn based. I might be biased in that respect. But to me, even though in most of those games you can pause, it seems more realistic with the action based. You are playing a role, and in real life there is no pause.

That is just me, though. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

In the german community of this board, there is one game famous : The "Realms of Arcania" series.

It's a little bit older now (2nd half of the 90s), but it's well remembered here in the german part.

The combat there was indeed turn-based. It looked like a chess board to me - as I played it for the first time - because of the grid lines - and with it began my passion for RPG games.

Albion is turn-based, too.

i liked the diablo style <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />
only save when you exit.
so not that ppl can reload 1000000 of times to get the ultimate gear, just let them work with what they really found.
I agree that it might also has its disadvantages, like what happens if you die against a boss or something.
hmmm i just realise that i have some ideas which make the game maybe a bit TO diablo like.
i mean, wouldn't it be handy to have something like townportals.
Or that you can be revived after you die, which will cost experience..

the way i see it there are 2 possible ways:

being able to save all the time, but when youre dead, youre really dead.

and the other way which i have metnioned before (the diablo way)

i hope you like my ideas lar <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />

I'd like to see you aim that in the height of combat! Perhaps like in MechWarrior where you press a key-pad number, each representing a different part of the body, and all your attacks are aimed there.

What about a dis-arm option (I mean the weapon, not the flesh, but that would be good too)?

I was thinking that character must eat and sleep or suffer penalties. You can only save when you sleep. You can save and re-load as many times as you want, but you have to play for a whole game-day before you can save again, preventing the chance to re-load for ultimate weapons.

Also, if items found in barrels and on monsters are random, you might think twice about taking risks after finding that Wand of Eternal Napalm Rain. If you die before you next sleep, there goes the wand forever...

'I was thinking that character must eat and sleep or suffer penalties. You can only save when you sleep. You can save and re-load as many times as you want, but you have to play for a whole game-day before you can save again, preventing the chance to re-load for ultimate weapons.
"

Ya know that is something that is SADLY missing from CRPG.. and something I would like to see. But will never happen. *sigh*

See below:

Draghermosran:
"turnbased is boring!!"

*sigh*

handefood i really like your ideas <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

That's already implemented in the mentioned "Realms of Arcania" series.

Hell, it was implemented in the Fighting Fantasy and Lone Wolf books by Steve Jackson and Ian Livingston (Fighting Fantasy), and Joe Dever (Lone Wolf). Quest for Glory is the other game that springs to mind.

It doesn't need to be a big deal. You have an inventory item called Food where 10 units = 1 days food. You also get warnings when you about to miss a meal or a night's sleep.

Turn-Based all the way... just beware you might lose some "action" fans.

like me.
I'd just make the turnbased thing an option

i agree with viper.
IF its able to implement tat is <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Am I missing something, but why turn-based if there is already possibility to pause and issue all orders/commands to any number or characters? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/think.gif" alt="" />

because some ppl dont like pressing paue anytime <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />
tb is a totally different play style then non tb, even when there is a pauze function <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

turn based like in fallout, with perks and traits! 1337 cows say m00t!!!

sure, some people like tb, some don't.
My opinion, I liked it in Gorky18, in Jagged alliance and in F2, but I prefer to see DD2 in the same way in is, with pause.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/offtopic.gif" alt="" /> dont you mean gorky 17?? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/offtopic.gif" alt="" />

i played that game once, it was rather difficult IIRC <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/offtopic.gif" alt="" /> correct, localized version of Gorky 17 in Russia was Gorky 18. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/offtopic.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/offtopic.gif" alt="" /> didn't know that, ok then <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/offtopic.gif" alt="" />
to bad the game didn't work on my windows xp..

Why Gorky 18 ?

My guess is that Gorky 17 was a real Russian faction. Games like Wolfenstein were completely banned in Germany because of the Hitler and Nazi content.

Ok, original name of the game Gorky 17 (Odium)
Russian version of Gorky 17 was politically incorrect, and has pro-Nato storyline with awful translation into Russian.

Gorky 18 is russian interpretaion of the game, Game takes place in closed city Gorky 18 in northen Caucasus, where main characters are russian secret service agents. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/offtopic.gif" alt="" />

Interesting ! Thanks ! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/up.gif" alt="" />

indeed <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/offtopic.gif" alt="" />

to know how can turn based combat be combinated with real-time, i suggest everyone to get a demo of Arcanum - it has turn based AND real time combat and you can even swith during combat... (it has also combined weight-inventory-limit and space-inventory-limit, with a little compromise to that space [since some items could be grouped and you could also drag some items to hot-keys, reducing ammount of your hotkeys, if you don't use those as ietm-equip hotkey])

well, anyway, there IS a demo for Arcanum and you SHOULD get it <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

For a multi-character RPG, the Black Isle games have the best system - real time with pause to allow instruction to be given as needed.

For a single character RPG, Diablo 2 has the best system.

I truly dislike 'turn based' CRPGs. The whole flavour of the game is utterly ruined, and the gameplay slowed to a ridiculous pace.

The only way it works is with the FF8/Septerra Core idea of limited-scope combat, with no attempt made at a 'realistic' combat style whatsoever, and no way to lure opponents into ambush or draw them away from an area you don't want them in.

If Div had turn based combat in its current format, it would be unplayable.

Absolutely.

The only way you can make a single character RPG turn-based would be in the style of NetHack or Castle of the Winds or any of the others (too numerous to mention). In these games, everything is turn based. Every move you make (ie. Walk, fight, open a door, pick something up, etc.) takes time measaured in seconds (or milliseconds). Any creature (ruinning by the same rules as you) whose next turn lies between your, takes it as they see fit. This works surprisingly well. You have some time to think about what you are doing and still have access to all of your skills and spells. And movement speed still means something because it takes different creatures different time to move one square. You can outrun slow powerful creatures, but those bloody wolves will catch you no matter what.

I think turn based vs real time relates to the actual amount of independent battles you are going to fight. The amount of killing (every screen in fact) in DD reflects the fact that there is not a whole lot of strategy involved in the actual combat phase but more in what you do -before- the fight (weapons,eq,skills). Also even if there were strategy, the battles would have need to be reduced and "replaced" by stronger but less frequent mobs.

Wizardry 8 for example threw you into turn based combat -every- single battle.
Every battle did require alot of effort and thought and rarely it was a matter of hack and slash. You -had- to pull stunts like casting blindness and spelling yourself up before every encounter, things i only actually use on bosses in games like Baldur's gate, Diablo etc. Where Wizardry imho messed up was they gave you an encounter every screen almost, you would walk one step and you're in turn based combat, when you just want to run to the next town to get supplies. In the end it becomes a huge frustration.

Arcanum did an interesting move with the option of both turn based and real time. Problem was in real time it was actually just simply too fast, and basically they replaced the "pause" option with a turn based option, which in the end amounts to the exact same thing. I would press "space" and go into turn based, then click to do my specific spell, when i see i'm winning i would press space and let it continue in real time. Arcanum had alot of strategy involved mainly because every single battle you could possibly run out of stamina and fall uncounscious, even fighting a rat could cause it..falling uncounscious basically meant death if you didn't have other party members to revive you.

So it must be a balance between two big factors.
(1) Amount of encounters
(2) Amount of resources required during each encounter (This includes the party
vs solo grouped situation)

If it's mass destruction sprees where you can run around killing 100s of mobs without needing to heal, turn based will fail. If every battle is potentially a boss mob, which requires you to use even the smallest advantage, got then turn based will almost be required, although pause features is a nice midway.
So i'd say, as in Baldur's Gate where you had alot less encounters than in DD (imho) but still alot of encounters that were plain hack'n'slash would be perfect for the "pause" feature, turn based would be annoying there as there's not really enough "crunch" battles.

Only realtime RPG combat system i liked so far was in Blade of Darkness, although the game wasn't considered an RPG but more similar to Rune. Gothic
had a similar combat system going although not as complex, but was alot of fun.
(If you don't knwo what i'm talking about, in short, you went into combat mode just like DD, but then it became something like Mortal Kombat where you could make special moves, had to dodge attacks, shield blocking, ducking, and timing your attack) This requires 3D though, not sure how it can be applied on 2D without a Final Fantasy style of "switching" or "zooming" into battle. This obviously depends on amount of encounters too, less encounters but more life threatening encounteres are required.

Oh yea forgot too mention, DD has too many passive skills to make turn based combat worthwhile. What will you do if you're a warrior in turn based? All you can do is click to attack and do the odd potion drinking or freeze spell (which usually lasts the whole battle on most mobs anyway).

Although there is alot of spells on the mages side that is actually only good
in turn based and strong mobs. How many are casting blindness and curse on the one-hit-dead-orc ? I prolly should go check out these spells, but my first impression of them were that they're not really going to play a role on something that will die with 2-4 casts of another offensive spell anyway.
And as there's not really that many bosses or difficult encounters i don't know how often they can be used effectively. Most difficult encounters for me are those when i'm surrounded by hordes and hordes of mobs..and blind and withering curse etc won't help you diddly in that scenario....unless it affects an area. (not sure if it does, so correct me if i'm wrong :P)

Either way DD has a very addictive kind of way of play, which i enjoy immensely. Just very satisfying doing a warrior-spin move and killing 10 mobs around you in one shot :P

As much as I loved Septerra Core, the 30 to 50 turn based battles you had to go through just to get from Point A to Point B really started to become tiresome. It was the story that kept me going though that.

The action in Divine Divinity was mostly hack-and-slash because the skills and monsters were unbalanced. In Diablo II you did have to think stratagy sometimes. You couldn't afford to be surrounded, even as a Barbarian. As anything less, you had to make damn sure that you weren't going to get overwhelmed at any one time. You had to keep the monsters at bay and spend your mana wisely.

Try Castle of the Winds and see what you think of single-character, turn-based RPGing: http://vengeance.et.tudelft.nl/cow/
Note: This site offers both part 1 and 2 of the game. Part 1 is shareware. Part 2 is a comercial release, not shareware, so it is technically breach of licence to download this without purchasing it. But I'll leave your morals up to you.

I dislike turn-based combat with a passion. It's the reason that I couldn't stand playing Fallout and Arcanum for long. (Arcanum has real-time option, but my opinion of it is not repeatable in decent company.) My favourite approach is real-time, but can be paused at any time (ala the Infinity Engine games).

Seriously, if DD came as turn-based like Fallout, I'd have returned it to the store.

Real Time Combat is often too complex for me: Having 10.000 options (spells, for example), but in the heat of the battle only able to use 10 % or so, and mostly not the most effective ones ...

I like the chess-like approach : Have you ever played Chess "real time" ? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />

Generally speaking, any CRPG game with a huge complexity of combat options and multiple characters needs some kind of pause function to make it playable.

With a single character, I don't think there needs to be a pause key - especially when it is possible to set the F-keys to give you numerous different options if you so desire, as is the case in DD.

A fully turn based game is as undesirable in either case as a turn based RTS game, and for much the same reasons - the idea is to create, as far as is possible, a fully immersive experience that draws you into the world.

The idea of people taking turns in combat is so ridiculous that it only works for CRPGs where combat is NOT an important part of the game, but where the main emphasis is on strong characterisation and the development of the plot and the relationships between characters.

Any game such as DD, where there is a very strong emphasis on combat over characterisation, really requires a real-time combat system to work - the more so where there is only a single character to work with.

The only CRPG I have ever seen that gets the balance right between combat and characterisation is Planescape: Torment. Every other CRPG seems to strongly emphasise one over the other.

In games such as Final Fantasy 8 the combat exists only to give items and experience points to the characters. The main emphasis is on the developing story, and the way it affects the lives and relationships of the characters. The characters learn and grow as people, and their relationships with each other change and grow over time. Whole sections of the game are character-driven rather than plot driven.

In games such as Diablo 2, the plot only exists as an excuse for combat. As such, the combat system is far more fluid and sophisticated, and requires quicker reactions and a degree of tactical thinking alien to turn based games (Like: if I stand on this side of the river I can shoot them all without getting hit - as a very basic example)

Any game where the emphasis is primarily on combat over characterisation (As DD is, let's be honest) that is also turn based would be so tediously boring as to be unplayable.

With very few tactical options, no swift reactions required, and no characterisation, why would anyone want to play a CRPG at all?

i love to play chess "real time" over the internet... since i play as a guest and i can't save games, i can't play long games (people will just go away in the most interesting point and i've lost half an hour), so i play blitz, my favourite timing is 1 minute, 6 secs acceleration <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> well, that's "real time" chess - you can't think for long.

Talking about 10000 options to do - i hate that too, that's why i never played BG for long, but i played other RPGs with real time combat - i hate learning a gane's system for months just to play it a week, i like to master it in a day (max week) and enjoy for months. Good games don't get you confused, but still offer a lot of fun (probably much more than those that confuse you first - i hate hardcore RPGs where every detail is a must and where players hate their characters to remind them it's just a game), Divine Divinity isn't hard to master, but is very enjoyable - it's extraordinary game.

Real-time chess is where you play with one hand and you don't take turns. You just move and take pieces when you feel like it. It usually ends up with the table getting involved.

i don't really know most of the RPG games that all of u mentioned but what i can say is that glitch aside, DD now stands tall on its own. real-time: (diablo, nox, korean 'shadowflare') this combat system is nice for RPG-lite. a whole lot of action with not too much brainwork but enough to make it engaging. action's the main dish with RPG on the side. real-time with pause option: (dungeon siege, grom[they call it action adventure RPG], NWN) this is nice when things get too hairy. RPG elements have more emphasis but not to the extend of overshadowing action. turn-based: (fallout 1 & 2, odium, HOMM series) haven't tried turn-based but personally speaking, an argument with a colleague is more combative. want to take turns? how about chess? so it's just me & my lack of love for turn-based RPG. hybrid: (fallout tactics: BOS) my personal favourite. mainly because the experience system is totally different than the usual STR AGI INT CON. but we're talking about combat system. FOT:BOS is great as it has real-time(they call it continuous turn-based), squad-based, & true turn-based system. truthfully fallout purists don't like it but i do. i play it only in real-time. apart from combat system, another system that needs revamping is the experience system. dungeon siege has 'practise makes perfect' XP system, fallout uses S.P.E.C.I.A.L. (strength perception endurance constitution intelligence agility luck, i think). diablo was great when it first came out. now with too many clones, games that even look a tad like it will be looked down upon. in fact DD has been accused as a diablo clone upon first impression. let's not curse the poor idiots who judged at a glance but maybe the next DD can look more distinctive. whatever it is, none of us would want the next DD to be played like any other game that we've played before. that'll be a major rip-off. that's my half cents. yeah u can shoot me now.

nice.

Well, know I have a guess why Lar started this thread ... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

i really liked the combat system from severance:blade of darkness it is real-time but it needs more brain work and strategical decisions then baldur's gate and icewind dale put together...the enemies are VERY strong and that stops u from going around slaughtering everyone insted u had to learn from your foe u had to learn his tactics his reactions but in the same time u couldn't apply the same tactics every time because the enemy AI was so good that he always did something out of his usual pattern so most of the times the most important fighting decisions were taken like they should be taken---IN THE HEAT OF THE BATTLE.That was the most realistic and fun approach to a medieval fighting game i have ever seen,and this is not only my opinion,a lot of cool gaming sites out there say the same thing,and any gamer who played this great game can tell u that the battles are truly epic...so i think any future larian games should be real-time,with less monsters, but more powerful and smart...

a guess, eh, yeah...

Having never played Diablo but hearing some stuff about it, I can honestly say that Divine Divinity is probably a lot different from Diablo in many ways. Combat systems are mostly secondary for me. I like developing my characters or heroes, immersing in a storyline, reading funny dialogues, completing quests and looking out for details. Personally, Fallout just doesn't appeal to me despite its turn-based combat system. *shrug*

Diablo is mainly focused on combat and on collecting. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

mostly combat though

combat with a purpose will be great. a quest in itself. with war looming, one finds oneself fighting for whichever side, either by choice or just pure accident. if one really role-play, the purpose of combat can never be levelling up. it's character development. yeah that means character development has to be further refined. let blizzard do diablo, & have larian make DD more unique.

When it comes to spells, what do people think of a rock, paper, scissors approach where there is no one superior spell...where every spell, no matter how powerful it seems to be can be countered in one way or another? How about characters who are designed this way? Thief is weaker than fighter...fighter is weaker than wizard...wizard is weaker than thief....?

Absolutely. Although, that tends to work in multiplayer games. What you need in a single-player game are bosses and armies that require different tactics or spells to defeat. For example, have fire elementals and ice giants in the game. Wizards require both the fireball spell and the ice-bolt spell to kill them all. Warriors require ranged weapons for the elementals and heavy melee weapons for the giants. Thieves can't sneak past the fire elementals (because they emit light), so they have to find another way through, but they can sneak through the heavily guarded ice giant halls.

Thoughs?

In my opinion as a consultant, the future is for the Larian ACTION combat interface.
An artificial intelligence decision maker is demanded to construct a unit scenario for the immediate battle zone. Let us say the hero is a mage with a spell of shock wave at hand as a special move.
When surrounded by as many as six enemies crowding his immediate vicinity his special move could be that shock wave to throw his enemies far enough to give him more time to cast spells on one by one at choice.
So the mage may not only have a targeted spell to cast by left clicks but also a circularly non-targeted spell to hit the immediate zone. The main character need not be a mage but selecting a spell into the special move should be handled as non-targeted. Weapon selector box must be a separate issue related to the left mouse button directly. As in <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/div.gif" alt="" /> the CTL button allows auto targeting the weapon so the shift button could be used for auto targeting spells. The clicking of the right button of the mouse may have three modes as well.
For a melee weapon the result of a right click should depend on the number and distribution of enemies in the immediate circle (battle zone) and rather than swinging an axe or a sword haphazardly, the hero may perform an entertaining move that depends on his/ her level of experience with that weapon, such as a samurai with a sword at a high level would perform an exceptional series of moves to cut down his enemies.
A right click with a shift should apply the non targeted spell circularly outwards, while the right click with a CTRL button should allow a sleek move with a combination of spell casting and weapon application whichever is best for the hero. My suggestions here are based on my experience with <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/div.gif" alt="" /> and a futuristic outlook yet basically I am being concerned about giving commands to a single character.
If your game design shall allow a party command interface then the issue is much more complex than to decide blindly without having enough information about that party in number and characteristics.
Also I would like to see the mouse click on items being enhanced.
The left mouse button may be used for TAKE item command, while the right mouse button for USE item command.
The mouse cursor may be greatly enhanced by morphing appropriately to indicate the possible actions when it is coincident to an item or a location.
For example, when the mouse pointer is on a closed door it should morph to indicate if opening that door was possible and to use the left mouse button for opening a door while the right mouse button for closing it.
This means that if I am in the way of the door and I wish to close it, my hero character should automatically clear the way to close the door on a mouse right click.
The combat systems are diverse and depend on the level of ZOOMING in on the action.
In KARATE on the Commodore Amiga one would control the character to perform on of forty different moves which demanded a special game controller pad. This is not what DIVINITY II or RIFTRUNNER is planning on. So you basically have SIX alternative commands by combining either a shift or a control key with either of the mouse buttons, to keep things as simple as possible.
You could have two boxes rather than one for selecting the current weapon set so that one could use a ranged weapon along with a melee weapon. Similarly we could implement two boxes for selecting the targeted spell type and the non targeted spell type.
All passive skills should never show up in combat selection pallets but rather in the skills learned panel.
Good luck with your game design and I hope that you succeed this time. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

succeed this time? imho, they succeeded quite nicely with Divinity.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/up.gif" alt="" />
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />
Indeed, my sarcasm was a teaser.
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />
People who know me tease me by calling me Professor Perfection AKA P.P.
I am a sincere fan of <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/div.gif" alt="" /> and I wish its game design to be rather perfect.
Success was really meant to be for producing the perfect game not just 'a' game.

I think that Divinity II is such a perfection-contender [color:"red"] IFF [/color] the fan’s criticism was taken seriously but with a grain of salt.
My posting identity is DAD.
You may wish to consider my ID as initials for Drink AND Die. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />
Also Deadly And Dangerous is fine.
But really it is much better if you consider that it stands for Dungeons And Dragons. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />
If all fails, I am simply 'dad' due to my age and experience. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mage.gif" alt="" />
I never meant to sound rude if that is how you have taken it.
Cheers. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wave.gif" alt="" />

Bitter as alway, friend?

Highlight the sword and press CTRL+F1 and then highlight the bow and press CTRL+F2. If you have a shield and your sword is single handed, you'll automatically equip a shield in the offhand while pressing the bound F1.
Although I cannot argue I would't mind to have Passive Skills remouved from 2nd action choice. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/silly.gif" alt="" />

You drink a potion called Shadow or cast a spell for fading out of sight to travel unseen.
But if you were a survivor and you wish to drink the shadow potion to get the keys from the desk in a police station, the moment you issue any command every guard in the area shall be on your head because you are not allowed to do anything else than walk or run when you are invisible. Thieves hate this game you know. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />
So there must be a rule that drinking the shadow potion is for travelling unseen and undetected. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/question.gif" alt="" />
Nevertheless the game designer breaks that very rule when you are allowed to detonate a package of explosives and poison a well while being in a shadow mode. So this is what we call "game design as you go."
No rules set and no story to begin with. And Shrimpo might have been a stagnant design in the graphics stock that never found an application to include it.
The synchronisation of sound effects and the fabulous graphic animations saved the honour of this game.
The programming is very good indeed, so brain-storming-meetings must have been behind this final concoction of sub-quests and extra elements. Captain Alex sends you to Mitox who offers you the chance to be a hero but at that stage you are too weak to confront the Orcish hordes. So the only chance you have is to sneak in, so they add the mining tunnel out of no where mining tar without miners and putting some Orcs for you in your way to enjoy the hacking and slashing. You are not allowed to be a shadow across locations, so you must use the upper ground as a shadow or the underground tunnel as a kamikaze. Run, run and pause then apply the explosives and let the clip finish your job. You jump into the shaft and no one follows you of course. Therefore the alternative was to reach those two mission-locations as a shadow, so let us make a shadow-potion that could never be used elsewhere because it was created for those two scenes only.
GIVE ME A BREAK.
You are not allowed to use any spells inside the castle or Iona’s dungeon because THAT would spoil the tender rules of a want-to-be story.
While you and Zandalor may not use magic in evil places Janus and his faction could pop into holy grounds and cast electric spells and kill council members! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/question.gif" alt="" />
Yet when you return as a divine one you can cast spells in the darkest dungeons and the stronghold of the devil. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/question.gif" alt="" />
GIVE ME ANOTHER BREAK. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />
The rules of this game are as tight as a sieve. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/down.gif" alt="" />
It is called INCONSISTENCY. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/down.gif" alt="" />
And it sucks. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/down.gif" alt="" />
WARCRAFT III is a closed quest architecture, but <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/div.gif" alt="" /> is an open quest architecture so the confusion of forcing a bad story line on an open architecture is totally inconsistent and irritating.
Alternatively, if there was a story with multiple endings, the hero could have chosen to get married with the Elfish couple and abandon the quest until his/ her new home is attacked and his/ her spouse gets killed.
So in revenge, the hero returns to the story line of the Devine one if he/ she did not choose that line willingly.
Multiple sets of armour and weapons designed as a matching fashion could have been far more pleasing.
Rangers hate metal armour and prefer the light leather for greater agility and metal armour is seen to come enchanted with increased agility! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/question.gif" alt="" />
Colour and fashion matching of boots, leggings, belt and armour should be set up far from being at random as seen in this game. Why shouldn’t I find a complete set of an ancient ranger’s armour and long bows, or a complete set of a famous knight hardly earned but available?
I can go on and on but enough was said so let me be.
Cheers. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wave.gif" alt="" />

By your post's lenght, I can really see you're a game addict <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />.
However, Divine Divinity has many things inspired from Diablo. The items, for example: there are infinity of RANDOM, computer generated items. Was the computer told "hey, compy-dude, don't make plate which raise agility, ok?"? No he wasn't. Also if you don't want your ranger to wear plate, don't! Find yourself a nice suit of armor other than plate, maybe charm it a bit... It's not like someone imposes you to wear plate, no?
Now I agree it sucks that you cannot cast spells or attack people in Stormfist castle or such. I would've loved if you could try to kill Janus even if it was impossible (Janus phase out or something). Or, for example, I would've just kill the guards who don't want me to enter the cellar. But then again, compare DD to Diablo: Diablo sold like hot cakes during ice age, still you couldn't kill anyone who wasn't a foe. Also Diablo didn't have convesations. Oh, suuure, you could *listen* but you couldn't say anything!
There are sets of armor: for example you take Plate Mail + Plate Grieves + Closed Helm + Tournament Shield... Actually in Diablo you got bonuses if you weared an entire armor set. Can't say I will cry if Larian won't include that feature in <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/riftrunner.gif" alt="" />.
And Warcraft 3... No offence, DAD, but I don't think WIII had the charms WII could propose. I didn't like the game much. Note that it was an RTS with minor RPG elements, whereas Divine Divinity is a true RPG. You cannot compare the two, in my opinion. Yeah, I agree, there was some level when you explored a dungeon, but EVERYONE there was an enemy. It was like pointless clicking.
Anyway, be happy <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wave.gif" alt="" />

yes, how do Janus and his friends pop up, and that was the reason of the shadow potion??? stupid, could have spent the time for a flyin' potion, that makes ya' fly, and that would have been better then a shadow potion, 'cause I want to steal somethin' and I drink it, and then I crouch down, and i open the chest, and I put out my greedy littel' hands and try to stuff those jewels in my pockets, and like 7 guards come down on me screeaming at me and...
what about the dwarves? they don't know what is going on in the war, and they never fight,o r the soldiers, u go up to 'em, and they say, 'yeah, I'm worreid about the orcs'blahblahvlah, I just spent an hour killin' 'em all, they're ALL DEAD! d-e-a-d, dead. and they complain about the war. and no wonder they're worried, when I run back to camp, with 10 heavy orcs, 1 ginat heavy orc, 5 heavy orc archers, 10 heavy orcs, and stuff, and they run in and start attackin' the troops (casue I'm gone) there's like 40 soldiers there, and I go invisibble (thnx shadow potion, grr) and like 6 orcs go on one guy, and this soldier takes out 1 and dies, an this happens, so I'm fed up, this army sux!

then I see like 1 heavy orc, on one soldeir, oh, he'll win, simple, look back, a min later, he fricken' dies! I have to save the camp from diasteer, they suck! man, hte army couldn't have been better. uggh.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/party.gif" alt="" /> pb <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/party.gif" alt="" /> me <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/party.gif" alt="" /> yea <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/party.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/birthday.gif" alt="" /> (sorry, ahad to do that, just made p-b)

This is extremely serious now.
I mean, NO kidding.
Soccer is a game, and basketball is yet another game.
You can tell which game is it by something we call the rules and the set-up of the game.
In soccer pushing the ball with your hand is foul while in basket ball you must push it by hand but if you did with your foot it is foul.
OK.
So what makes a freaking GAME?
RULES.

NO RULES = NO GAME.

Now please play <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/div.gif" alt="" /> again and keep an eye on the freaking RULES then when you find out that what you believe to be the rules are broken too often you shall begin to understand my agony.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cry.gif" alt="" />

Hi DAD,

I think following the rules too much hampers creativity quite heavy. Maybe the reason why the Divine One can cast spells is because the Black Ring members contain a trait called "hubris." "Hubris" or overconfidence is the weakness of many evil characters. Their inflated ego causes them to make bad decisions. Perhaps that is why some people will not feel sorry for them when they come to a grisly end. Anyway, the Black Ring members did not ward the area to prevent the Divine One from casting spells because they thought they could destroy him/her easily in a fight...They thought wrong..That's one possible explanation I came up with. Who knows what the real reason is...

Thanks, <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/up.gif" alt="" />

Hi Lockmar.

Thank you for reading me and for your logical explanation.
I still hold on to my complaints concerning the rules of the game (not the rules of the alleged pseudo-story).
We may find whatever reasons for breaking the rules but it does not change the fact that the rules were broken.
After you kill the executioner, go to the end of the prison and find a guard.
Beside that guard there is a locked door.
Try opening that door and tell me what is upstairs or try to go to that DESIGNED place at all at any time.
Another location is that on the left side of the same screen behind the wall with the three chests.
If it was never intended, for us the players, to go there at all, then why was the trouble of creating them?
Let me guess.
There was a good story that had to be cut down many times to fit into three CDs or a single DVD.
Production decisions sucks.
If it was up to me, I would have sacrificed half of the silly weapons and armour to give space.
I would have made plates, spoons, dirks, water mugs and stone pots as well as flower pots all non selectable and inseparable from the background as much as many other scene objects to reduce item space.
I would have forsaken the silly Shrimpo ‘quest’ if we may call it a quest at all.
I should be able to investigate the castle, open doors, steel treasures and all, but if I decided to go into a critical area prematurely I should face the consequences of that scenario and perhaps die too early and reload the game to avoid such a mistake. The only reason I can think of that prevents Zandalor from casting spells and getting imprisoned is to investigate the sword of lies to the depth of finding where it should have been and getting trapped behind the magical door and within the magical walls that imprisoned the fragment of the soul of chaos all those years. The quest to free him should include finding a very tricky point to click on the wall after removing an item to reveal it to bypass the magic password. I did not invent this but rather concluded it from the written story that came with the game. There was a young mage called Ralph who died inside that magic chamber after being possessed by the demon of the sword. There was a wall section that was a heavy stone door that was locked by the duke Ferol at the request of his possessed childhood friend.
In Iona’s dungeon there was no need for the white cat to save my a.s.s. I could kill the two Orcs by magic spells and get the key by telekinesis.
While saving Gameou, there was no need to get frozen and get saved by Zandalor altogether as it makes no sense and no difference. I should have been able to find the morphing wand and the key and figure out how to restore him.
In that way, there was never a good reason to cripple the hero as it had been done and prevent the magic spells unfoundedly.
In that way of remedy the rules could have been set in a formidable manner.
The accumulation of spells is also imperative as a rule, because a mage has the power to cast combined spells to ensure hitting a weak point. And while being a shadow and casting spells a mage is most powerful against foes that have no magic powers of true-vision.
Just imagine the need to investigate a document under the nose of guards while being invisible and you should realise that action of ‘take and use’ item while a timed shadow spell is active should have been implemented.
Rule consistency makes the RPG a haven for RPG gamers not to mention addicts as myself.
Well enough ranting for today, I think. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

Cheers.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wave.gif" alt="" />

I prefer rules that allow me freedom in developing my char as I want her to be:
the armour/equipment/weapon I find best (my mage deserves the best plate armour <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> ) - not being regulated by a completion bonus
the class combo I want her to be - not being regulated again (I played as rogue/paladin in NWN, grinned all the time <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" /> = Machiavellistic approach)
Being able to pick skills from all classes was something I enjoyed tremendously in Div - same for armour/weapons = not the class but my stats defined if she could wear it.
Combat system: I prefer the turnbased mode, so Div was a good compromise IMO for action gamers and cautious ones like me (looking at monster resistances and then browsing my spell book in peace) - I'm playing this game the first time as warrior = it's boring for me, but I know others like it, that's ok for both sides, right? So, I hope, Div2 and RR will contribute to both fractions: action and sissies like me <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />

I am sorry for the agony you feel, DAD - but I've had a lot of frustration in games where I had to swallow class restrictions - let's call it even? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />

Inconsistency: Yes, I agree on that in general, but the double measure rule for Janus in the castle (no magic) and him entering sacred grounds was logical IMO. If the gamer could kill Janus, how would the Divination ritual work then afterwards? As you see, I don't question the storyline from an outer view, but try to find logic within the storyline = different approach, right?

A rule I'd recommend: Freedom - but this is impossible in toto IMO. It had really amazed me to which ideas gamers came in Div, specially those liking to play the "bad guy". Within this scale I then can create my own "rules/restrictions".

A rule I'd like: consequence, meaning this = if gamers prefer a certain gameplay and kill NPC's needlessly, busting quests then/not getting them: This should not be called a bug then, just logical consequence resulting out of own deeds and choice (e.g. Sword in the Stone, killing merchants, healers etc.)

Let's face it: Even if rules are there, gamers will always find a way to outwit them - even the best imagination of a programmer/developer/story writer team will not dream up all possibilities a gamer can come up with, hm? <whispering> Humans are imperfect <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />
Kiya, already practising dodge skill

Lacking knowledge in Anglo-american debate rules I don't contribute much - but I still enjoy reading your posts <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wave.gif" alt="" />

Hi DAD,


Game interaction was another important goal of the game designers. That's why they included so much.


Personally, I thought the Shrimpo quest was fine. I'm thinking that it was similar to the Easter Egg because the game designers wanted their names to be a part of the game. It adds a personal touch for them and as a player, I think it makes the game more interesting once you realize this.


Some other possible reasons why Zandalor is prevented from casting spells is because he is so powerful and also because of evil's very nature. The Black Ring likes to assert itself as being more powerful by disabling Zandalor's magic but the group would rather torture Zandalor at the right moment first before killing him as a way of mocking him to the extreme. I don't think Zandalor would have been foolish enough to get himself trapped within the magical walls.

What if someone doesn't have the poison cloud spell? I don't think it was the original intention of the game designers for you to be able to use poison cloud to kill the black dragon. Poison cloud was never meant to be a required spell. If it was, I don't think Arhu would have saved you. As a larger point, the game was designed to create a lot of freedom in my opinion. If you didn't have the means to escape because you were lacking certain skills or spells, then it was okay. Telekinesis is not required either. Again, there's no way for you to escape that special freeze spell. That spell was meant to show you that the Black Ring and evil forces at work in the game were as powerful or maybe even more powerful than the good forces. If evil does lose a war, it is almost always due to an excessive amount of ego rather than a lack of power. This is the theme in many stories where good and evil clash. These are just some more of my theories.

Thanks for the discussion, <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/up.gif" alt="" />

Hi Kiya.
It was a pleasure for me too to read your posts.
I also do respect the opinions of others even if we agree to differ.
We ARE different in general but we also seek our similarities that bring us together to become fans of this game, right? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />
Even though I am obviously a male, I prefer my hero to be a female.
Females are more Divine by nature. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />
Thus, I would love to see my hero in the best armour too. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />
A wish there was a very sexy armour-set that allows my hero to kill all male foes while they are busy leering. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

Restrictions:
I never meant to endorse any restrictions.
I only wished that rules come natural without forcing silly freedom that neither makes sense nor comes handy in the game itself.

Items:
In the real history of the Middle Ages, any warrior would wear a dagger or two along with the major melee weapon which was preferably a war axe or a sword of choice. Other weapons did exist of course but they were less popular for lonely rangers. Lances and spears are not for heroes but for war ranks standing side by side or mounted knights charging at full speed.

If the combat rules made the damage of weapons vary by proximity, then daggers could be most useful if a hero could lose a sword and be close enough to a foe.
Under the current rules of DD daggers are wimpy tools good only for pealing apples. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

Calling it even:
I like that. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/delight.gif" alt="" />
It is a very cute idea to wash my suffering by the idea of the suffering of others although it is not fair to either of us to suffer at all.

Inconsistency:
If you were reading all my posts, you would have noticed that I held exactly your opinion but in different words. I said that the current game design shortcomings are a logical consequence of the bad internal story line.
IOW you found logic concerning the design solutions to handle the bad story line. I agree on that, hence there is no different approach at all here.

Freedom and playing the bad guy:
Turnoff the lights Yanez, says the survivorett! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

Consequences:
Agreed.

Let's face it:
Visual and audio professionals produce the basic materials for inclusion by programmers into the game.
Programmers follow the directions set by a game director/designer whose job is to correlate the audiovisual material with the story line, which must be rewritten by a RPG scenarist.
The story itself is the backbone of the artistic product, but the scenarist is the most important mind in a game creation. It is the scenarist’s imagination that sets the background locations and the events that take place in the game. When a good story is converted to a scenario the director could order the graphics and the audio effects that make the material for the programmers to knit together into a marvel of simulation.
It is the primary responsibility of the GAME DIRECTOR to set the rules of the game to comply with the scenario and produce a consistent product.
Divine Divinity never had a well written story line, a clear and consistent scenario or ever had a dedicated Game Director, and I think that “Swen” (LAR) is an amateur genius/ tyrant who held all the teams captive in his dungeon to produce his half-cooked genius ideas.
No offence intended here, but I have the mental powers to read all this through my 36 completions of this game.
If I am wrong let Swen post a reply saying that I was wrong and correct me, but I am almost sure that if he reads my posts he shall be very surprised as to how I found out all this information.
The answer is very simple, I am DAD. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

Cheers. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wave.gif" alt="" />

Except for Textadventures - imagine by the Word.

Mmmm... Text adventures. Memories of Zork Zero.

Were you trapped in a cave since 1986[?]
If you mean the added feature of the ancient style with text windows having a multiple choice response text just like what we have in <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/div.gif" alt="" /> then I do not get your point because that part is a simple and direct compliance with the scenario, which includes a script of course.

Larian Studios obviously did a lot of scripting as well as a concocted scenario in which locations were decided. Aleroth, the farmlands, River-town, Verdisitis, black forest, the Dwarven Halls, the Imps’ deserted castle and all the dungeons of the major episode before divination. Then the wastelands and the final mazes came as an extension that stands alone. The choice of the scenery locations is a straight forward decision taken from the original story line events that took place before the game time period, which is quite satisfactory. It is also related to homelands of the seven races and the related teleporters, scrolls etcetera.
The story line that I did not have the honour of reading is related to the unfounded existence of your hero of choice and the development of such a character. We may all guess of course that once a healer brings in the hero into Aleroth the hero is subjected to mild quests for healing the two patients and curing Mardaneous.
But before the hero clears up her/ his small world she/ he encounters the murder of George, to which no answer could be found within Aleroth forcing our character to leave the gates. Then the hero is forced to communicate with Seth and take the order of the escort consequently.
So the concoction sets the hero to choose seeking the murder quest or assembling an escort which leads to the two famous branches of demolish and poison for Mitox.
Yet before the hero could reach the bridge, she/ he is forced once again to die and be saved by Zandalor and get acquainted. Zandalor adds two more destinations to the hero’s list of choices, the cursed abbey and the dwarven bread inn. Yet the one quest added there is finding all the teleporters leaving it quite open for other than Elfish and Human scrolls but the dwarven scroll was logically to be available at the dwarven inn.
A very simple story based on a mysterious marking of three characters is initiated here.
The minor episode of Aleroth is a stand alone story.
The hero is subjected to the knowledge of being a marked one.
Assume that the hero forgets about seeking teleporter scrolls, the murder, the plague and the abbey while seeking Zandalor to find out about being marked. The hero drops the side quests and seeks the major line.
Informed that Zandalor did not return from the Stormfist castle and trying to reach him the hero is rejected without an invitation forcing a minimum of two quests of heroism related to Mitox.
So let us follow this line.
The hero gets an invitation and enters the castle too early and loses the teleporting pyramids.
The hero then gets humiliated and kicked out.
From thence, seeking the sewers and entering the castle from below the sequence forces the hero to end up at the council and face the mission of gathering the six members.
For Kroxy, the hero must finish up the Crusade on the Orcish camp.
For Mardaneous, a skirmish at Aleroth.
For the Imp, an adventure in a magical realm.
For the lizard, a minor skirmish in Verdisitis.
For the Elves, a good quest in the south of the black forest.
For the dwarves, a rather complex quest that includes the dragon armour but mainly it is in the dwarven halls and the dwarven village.
So the whole idea was to fabricate a story line that subjects the hero to the six races after being extremely irritated by Janus.
The council members kill the hero to send him to the gods who reconstruct the divine one and send him back to the wastelands to fight the demons and save the world.
This is briefly the reticulated dependencies of the story line that has neither strong causality nor strong foundation but it works for this type of open architecture game some how.

The hero has no roots, only a destiny for no known reason else than the will of the gamer.
There is not a single sub-quest (else than mentioned) that dictates seeking for a profound relation to the simple story line.

Up to this point all is forgiven.
Now study in detail the implementation of the details and find out that too many events were illogically forced to keep that simple story line intact, and I ma very sure that most of it was modified during debugging and quality tests of the game because the crippling of spells occasionally (breaking the rules) and the inconsistency of domination of powers (unfounded events) and the forced cut scenes (very irritating out of thin air catastrophes) are all symptoms of problems related to keeping up with a very poor story line the details of which was constructed as the game was developed and never before.

Due to all of that, the dialogues and the multiple choice response texts came feeble and shallow aiming in the dark and I could never blame the editors of the text for such shallowness if they never had a high quality story to begin with and a professional scenario to work on. In fact, it reflected great talents due to the partial success achieved.

Cheers.
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wave.gif" alt="" />

I don't mean to offend you, friend, but WHY are you saying all this?
If I regroup all your posts, I could publish a book, why are you using your free time to write humongous posts about the flaws of a game which:
- You still like
- Many other people love
- Was published a while ago
- Will have a sequel soon.
I would propose to wait for <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/riftrunner.gif" alt="" /> and compare the 2 games later. Plus sometimes you seem to repeat your arguments. I am surprised that a professor would even play computer games, not only discuss them. Still, it's only my opinion and I am only a person. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wave.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/freak.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/alien.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/badsmile2.gif" alt="" />
A retired former professor please.
A freaking wealthy and retired former professor who is fed up with the imperfection of the real world and finds ultimate pleasure in RPG.
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/badsmile2.gif" alt="" />

I do go to a sports club occasionally to avoid building up fat. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />
I love chocolate, coffee and smoking.
So why do I say all this!
I need to guide the producers of my favourite games to make what my very selfish self demands, my good friend.
I can stop smoking and drinking coffee but I cannot stop playing fantasy games or eating the best chocolates. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />
One of the times in which I finished the game, I started it as a female warrior and did not stop or sleep until I finished the game.
Now spell CRAZY three times. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wave.gif" alt="" />

Haha!
Now I clearly see that some people never get old <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />.

Well met DAD!
hey dad do you use a voice translator to type all your posts...or not? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/up.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />
ya jest can't take the kid outa the man!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

Actually I am an old paralysed hermit on a desert island. 14 years ago I built a coconut-powered computer using only 7 crab leggs and a palm three. Now I cannot move and I have my faithful monkey typing for me, so if you see any grammatic errors, blame it on the Boogie (yeah, I call my monkey "Boogie). DAD can't be in a worse situation that I find myself in <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cry.gif" alt="" />.
At least the monkey bakes me turtle cookies!

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/offtopic.gif" alt="" />
Don’t we all <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/question.gif" alt="" />
First I hear those damned voices inside my head building up a tune.
Then I try very hard to make my fingers dance a keyboard dance that matches that tune.
So you may call it Shoulder translation with a shoulder jerk now and then between paragraphs. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

Watch out for Death on your door, he lives in Monkey Island. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/silly.gif" alt="" />

Paralysed, shoulder jerks <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> - you guys sure pay very dearly for your games devotion.
Aw, heroes of the technical age
Kiya, deeply concerned

Points at some ape: "THAT'S THE SECOND BIGGEST MONKEY I EVER SEEN! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />"
Oh, it's only a mirror!

You use paragraphs? Sorry, that's just been bugging me a little. Your posts can be very hard to read, simply from the big blocks of text.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/badsmile2.gif" alt="" />
Then most probably I have forgotten to jerk my shoulder during madness voices translations.
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/badsmile2.gif" alt="" />
Har-har-har.
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/alien.gif" alt="" />

I just made up a new <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/div.gif" alt="" /> cheerleaders’ cheer-song.

D. V. D. divinity.
Pleasure is a guarantee.
Play your movie and sit back while you sip your orange tea.

Give me a D
Give me a V
Touch my knee.
Drink my tea.
Divinity.
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/silly.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wave.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/silly.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />
Har-har-har.

Ahhhh....welcome my friend DAD, it has been a long journey......
but we knew you would arrive eventually..........

Time to Check in!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Blahahah he finally started posting short posts! He hath succumbed to the temptation! He hath!! Wahahahahhaha!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/silly.gif" alt="" />

Er, ahem, on that note, it seems like Riftrunner will be a lot closer to Baldur's Gate II in combat than it will be to Diablo II. Discuss. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/stupid.gif" alt="" />

I know! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cry.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cry.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cry.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cry.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cry.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cry.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cry.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cry.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cry.gif" alt="" />
I guess I won't buy the game, then. Not that I am a fan of Diablo 2, but <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/div.gif" alt="" /> was special because it was a good [color:"red"] action [/color] RPG. I guess I will buy Grayhawk: Temple of Elemental Evil, when it's out.

Do not believe every thing you read : ( <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/div.gif" alt="" /> )

If not for Joram and the white cat I'd be long dead by now. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

Why not? I like BG2's gameplay a lot, and I always did feel a little lonely in the big Divine world. I summoned some stuff a few times, but it just didn't feel too right. I liked the kitty companion but kitty never talked to me! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/disagree.gif" alt="" /> Well, I'm sure there will be a lot of action in RR, too, so don't fret. I'll be getting Greyhawk ToEE, too. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/delight.gif" alt="" />

Maybe I was too quick about the decision: I mean RR is not even out yet <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />. But what to expect from someone who slept for 4 or 3 hours per night this week <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" /> [well, ok, it's not my fault if Divinity kept me untill 4 AM...].Still I am unsure about <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/riftrunner.gif" alt="" />. After I saw [bought] Neverwinter Nights, I became sceptic of new RPG ideas. NWN was, as Bioware claimed, "The one game which will change the whole RPG idea!". Most reviewers gave NWN good scores, but the game was horrible! I swar, I won't buy a single Bioware game, ever! So I fear another NWN: <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/riftrunner.gif" alt="" />. I might be wrong, of course.

Not that I dislike Baldur's Gate engine or fighting system, but I have seen so many games made with that system. I wanted something like Morrowind (action) but... "cute-er", you might say. I got <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/div.gif" alt="" />, I am happy but I want a sequel!
When I played Baldur's Gate, I felt I was some commander: even if I made my in-game avatar, I never had the feeling that this bugger was really representing me. In Divine Divinity, the character is the player, and I felt that. Also I liked Diablo 2's combat (not Diablo itself, though) because it was different from Fallout 2, Baldur's Gate (and later Arcanum). Divinity is an action game and an RPG at the same time. Also I mourn the interface in RR. I liked the interface in BG, Fallout and Arcanum. I hated the semi-transparent, windows-like boxes in Morrowind and NWN, I always was a fan of fancy interface, because it also shows the effort used in the game.


EDIT: But I still hope Larian to make "center on character" command. I also pray for a good 2d interface and paperdoll: the ones in NWN and Morrowind sucked!

Both combat styles or good depending on if you have a party or single character. Being able to choose when the round ends is the best way to have it.

Ah, come on, this is not dungeons and dragons nor it is a turnbased.

I like that it's not D&D -- it means I can appreciate a non-D&D CRPG! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" /> Yes, I'm a big fan of D&D, but Divine Divinity was one of the first non-D&D game I got very addicted to... I think that the combat was somewhat lackluster at times, but that is mainly because the enemies were too many and I had to click and slash my way through every one of them. My favorite parts of the game were just running around solving quests, going to the merchants and continuing the story. Combat was secondary a lot of the time. Whereas in a D&D-based game, often the combat is cooler than the NPC interaction (*cough* NWN *cough*), so I guess I can see where you're coming from. Also, NWN was way too overhyped as well as having had a crappy single player because of the "Aurora Toolset" that stinked to no end (ate my modules several times, crashes, buggy, etc.), and Riftrunner will definitely be nothing like it. Riftrunner will be, if anything, awesome because the Larian guys actually listen to the forum members and the feedback.

Apologies for the lack of organization in this post. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ohh.gif" alt="" />

Strategy should be priority whether in turnbased or not. And I mean much more than what we had in divinty like a warrior drinking potions and using limb leads or mage doing some combo of spells is strategy but I am up to more than that. I mean when someone attacks you from the behind your armor and defense should be drastically decreased your shield should not count etc. And some way fr you when you attack from behind you should be more likely to hit and do more damage. You should be able to fire from roof tops or behind walls (but this requires that artifical intelligence should be very high so that instead of waiting as victims when a monster is not able to reach you it should run away or it should be able to turn over walls to reach you <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" /> Even if you implement 10000s of skills in the game if there is no strategy involved afterwhile it will get boring constantly doing the same stuff over and over.

Besides please don't add frost it is lame <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> And potions should not instantly heal but rather like be in diablo II heal you over 1-2 scs otherwise with a a stock of 1500 lb of potions you are almost invulnerable (that is until you run out of potions)

its not that lame, frost can be cool.

Frost is good as long as high-level monsters have immunity to frost.
Potions are good as they are. I remember that in Diablo it's the same thing.

Nay in diablo II when you drink a potion it doesn't instantly fill up your health it takes aprx. 3-4 seconds to do it and it does so by like regeneration lets say if a healing potion heals 40 hp in 4 seconds it heals 10hp per sec like that it is more realistic you don't just swallow down the whole potion

In Diablo II health potions have a delay, restoration potions do not (or did they change that in LOD?). I started a new character in LOD some time ago after not playing for awhile. I just about got myself killed because I was used to just using restoration potions, and wasn't taking the delay into account the first time I used a health potion.

Hmm it has been a while but I don't remember you may be right.

Though I have to say one of these two would be nice

1. Make the delay like diablo or
2. Or it restores health instantly but after you drank a potion(any) for 3 seconds you can not take any action but just move how about this? I mean make potions a little less powerful with no delay and instant heal and the alchemy skill potions rather become too powerful

I think the delayed reaction is good as in Diablo 2 and Thief. It makes sense that your body needs to absorb the potion first, no matter how magical.

There's a lot of balancing to be done on the transition from DD to RR. Charms is one, stack up on vitality charms and you can have over 3000 hps on your character. My 39 hero has like 30 constitution because there's always stamina potions. Points are best spent on agility and strength. (agility until your chance to hit and dodge is maxed or high enough) The item randomizer needs a big looking into as well. Upgrade your silver armor into something inferior? How about your Dragon Breastplate, I got an "upgrade" to a white texted piece with ZERO stats, just 190 armor was all I got, luckily we all have to use the save/load trick to get anything decent in the first place. That shouldn't even be possible!

Frost is lame. It's like a pause button that effects only the monsters. Polymorph is lame too, it's like playing a developer mode game and using your own "hack" spell to race through mobs to test quests and what not. Hopefully RR will be rendered with more challenge in mind. I love to let the boss monsters go full strength at me, toe to toe. That's what a hero is about imo, taking it like a man.

I know how hard balancing is, I've played Everquest for over 3 years and yet they still balance things with their patches, often adding content to break things all over again. It's neverending. It's a quest of keeping it fun while making it challenging. Some people want it more fun, some want the challenge, you're never going to please everyone. Trying to please everyone will only end up with a broken game.

Excellent! summation there, Clyston



<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/up.gif" alt="" />

About that "racing through mobs" :

I'm a non-fighter. I don't like fioghting that much. That's why I even stopped LOD.

I want to be able to finish quests without fighting. I consider it a broad cliché that an RPG game should mainly be based on combat. It's so heavy - this cliché - that almost no developing company has ever made a kind of effort to change that.

Icewind Dale, for example, has a very good athmosphere, but ios soo biased towards combat that I couldn't believe it. Less would have been more, in that case, I believe.

Another cliché is that "hardcore RPG player" LOVE difficult fights.

I am the exception from that rule : I consider myself a "hardcore RPG player" with the love for lots of detailed work - but I *don't* want difficult fights.

Some say tht difficult fights are a challenge - but from Icewind Dale II I heard it's maybe a fest of reloading.

I want to have fun without fighting - is that soo difficult for developing companies to learn ?

Not everywhere the idea of solving problems via combat is a generally accepted priinciple ...

Alrik, you're right. Though the hardcore RPG character is always a hulking fighter with a greatsword, there's no roleplaying in hacking orc's limbs off (no offence Jurak ;0)). Only Arcanum, Fallout 1, 2 and I think Planescape: Torment succeeded in non-combat solutions. Sometimes the pen is more powerful than the sword but when the pen's lacking...
I wonder if RR will have the "pen".

I don't have the time to read through the whole thread now, unfortunately, but I have some quick thoughts:

The fallout combat system is far superior to the now prevalent action rpg approach imo, (though I must say that the addition of a ctrl key lock on was very very welcome in DD, as it certainly decreased the twitch factor).

I'm not so sure that a fallout style combat system would suit DD though. In my mind the difference between a turn based system ala fallout and a real time twitch based system ala DD is the focus on roleplaying. No offense to DD, but fallout was a deeper rpg imo. DD is certainly more expansive, but it takes a more traditional dungeon romping style where you go to town to get a quest and trade then leave town to kill stuff. This style would be disrupted by a fallout style combat system because it is so much slower.

The beauty of the turn based system in fallout was that I was very attached to my character and I let my imagination fill in the blanks for me a bit. So, when I was playing fallout 2 and using the unarmed evasion skill, I could imagine my character going jet li, flipping about to evade bullets/melee strikes. This makes it so that the individual battles are more memorable, but this approach demands ALOT less combat. It's a trade off. Real time combat doesn't allow for all of the technique possible in turn based, but turn based is never going to be as exciting. No constant zig-zagging back and forth to avoid projectiles while you rush in to strike the killer blow with an axe.

I think these two different combat engines only fit in with entirely different game styles. The same type of player that loves the slow paced/strategic combat in fallout loves the endless dialogue puzzles of fallout and everything else that makes the pace of fallout snail like compared to a game like DD.

I am unable to play evil characters, I just don't tend to enjoy them. Nevertheless, I would occassionaly dabble in evil while playing FO, and this is another key difference. Imo the fallout combat engine isn't just fun because it's strategic, it's fun because it's evil. The first time I got into a fight in shady sands I ended up crippling Tandi, ("blowing her knee into the next town"), and then I approached her and finished her off with a bullet to the face as she lay helpless on the ground. This is where I think that the FO combat system involves more roleplaying, but I don't see room for this kinda action in DD really. The same is true when my character runs in front of a child during an urban gun fight to absorb the minigun spray that was directed at my companion, and that would've torn the kid to bits.

I guess I'm showing alot of bias here, though unintentionally. I think the DD universe could support a fallout type combat engine, but I think that you'd be missing out if all you went for were the increased strategic options that would be possible. I think a deeper game with more scripted events and quests for more character types, (not class based quests, but "karma based quests", if you will), would help make the turn based combat system much more poignant.

You have to include truly evil, not just "tough guy" dialogue options, and the quest/scripted events to go with, before you can fully enjoy the imaginative role playing options that a turn based combat system allows.

Morbo's final toughts:

(Got this from Jerry Springer and modified a bit, You'll hardly notice <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />)

It's never healty when the parents of a game fight to detirme whats best game, the game only suffers. The parent will have to learn to get along for the good of the game.

Now I like hack and slash and turn based combat systems. But I realy see it happening in the same game. So theire is only one option that remains. With <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/div.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/riftrunner.gif" alt="" /> and <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/div.gif" alt="" />2 we will have 3 hack and slash games, so to even things out theire should be 3 turnbased games. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" /> Maybe a prequel (Zandalor: The young years, That story in the PDF file, ...). Well I guess I am saying theire enough <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/div.gif" alt="" /> universe for us all <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> and is that not the important issue <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/question.gif" alt="" />

This is Morbo saying goodnight.


Keep up the good work Larian <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/up.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/up.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/up.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/delight.gif" alt="" /> good one, morbo. zandalor: the younger years. this reminds me much of wonder years series. what about janus the good boy turned bad? this will be similar to anakin skywalker @ darth vader in SW saga.

some more; breathing - story of jake, or the 3 jakes(there's a movie with this title, right?).

George goes trainspotting. "dude, u can put weed in there."

I thought [color:"yellow"]Divine[/color] <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/div.gif" alt="" /> was kool, easy to use, especially with the 'control key' for targeting the nearest enemy. Baldurs Gate 2 was ok for PS2 unless u had to use a bow which I found was pretty awkward. Didn't like the look of Baldurs Gate 1 for PC, too many options buttons filling up the screen. If the developers stick to their idea of a party of playable characters I'd rather not see it follow the style of the Final Fantasy series, though good games, I soon got sick of the combat, once you know how to defeat a certain monster there's little strategy to it. It was good how you could pause Divinity during combat too, though when surrounded by many different enemies, hence if you are using magic which is affective to some and not others and cannot run it was awkward. However to make this better it would perhaps have to be turnbased and would ruin the game that many of us have become to love. If you could set some of the characters to e.g. run if they became so low on health, or to use certain magic types against certain enemies in an options menu pre-battle and then change between characters of you own free will, this could prove quite useful.

welcome to the forums, yeah, in the new <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/riftrunner.gif" alt="" /> there is battlefield technology to make it harder.

Personally, I like the system used in Gothic or Jedi Knight 2 : Jedi Outcast the most where it is more skill based in real life than just hack and slash where as "oooh, look at me, I am higher level than you therefore I can automatically win". I like the approach where levels CAN help a lot, but a low level character can also beat a cocky high level character not really caring to fight seriously.

Although, that would be almost impossible to do with renderings and stuff which is currently what you are working with.

A higher level fighter doesn't necessarily win in an RPG. The lower level just has to understand how to use what he has and the environment to his advantage. You can get to a high level by picking on those smaller than you, but just because you don't have the prowess doesn't mean you haven't got the know-how. It's the whole David and Goliath thing.

heh, lol, I was just playing jedi outcast 5 minutes ago, in it, you just learn a new level (no choise) every level,p retty sweet game, though, even though it is RPS <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shame.gif" alt="" />

the compbat system i liked the most, was in a game called "secret of mana" (nintendo SNES)
it was an console game, ok..
but it was very nice to play. and i never saw the same sort of combat system again.

the combat is in real time. and you have a "fatigue" system. you bar is at 100% when you swing, the bar drops to 0% and recharge. you can eater wait until 100% to get the full damage or you can hit example 50% to gat the half of the full damage.
you could choose between 8 different weopons
And the best part was if you usesd your sword for a long time you gat a level in sword mastery.
At level 2, you could do more damage by doing the following: if you hold your attack button, the 100% bar recharged even further until 200%. now you could do a special move with your sword,.
the more levels in a weopon the more damage you could do with spectacular moves. (but it takes alot longer to charge ofcours)

the same with the magic. if you use 1 spell alot the spell gets more powerfull.

the game pauzes when you select a new weopon or magic. the way you could select the weopons was very nice.
1 button activate not a window but a circle around your character. in ths circle you find the weopons. very easy to use.

i don't know if this could be partialy implemented in a PC game because most platers use the mouse now..

but yu have to see it to beleive it.. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/up.gif" alt="" />

Yeah, but that wouldn't really work too well on a PC... atleast I don't think so.

I like the way DD combat system created. Turn-based's also a good combat system, but I think it will not fit well with Divine's realm <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/disagree.gif" alt="" /> I don't know if you like to see it, but I will never spent even a second waiting my turn to kick Orc's a** off. Sorry for the bad word <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

I like to see a real time combat system with the option of using AI scripts. Players can program their own AI scripts to control each member of the party. IWD I, II and BG I, II all support AI scripts, however, in those games you can always pause and make decisions, so AI scripts only have limited usage. The scripts will be very useful in a real time combat system, when it's hard to control all characters at the same time.

welcome to the forum!!!
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wave.gif" alt="" />

the scorpions and the sommoned creatures did that in <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/div.gif" alt="" /> and hopfuly teh deathnight will do that in <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/riftrunner.gif" alt="" />

Since Marian said in the Interview he liked that "you can play the DeathKnight", I guess it will be so that you can "use" the human (when you play the DeathKnight) or the DeathKnight (when you play the human being) as a fighting comrade. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

How about a variable speed RTS, with penalties for slowing down below normal speed? Penalties could be lower scores or prohibitions on using some of the special abilities at slower speeds. This give players the option to exercise caution and discretion, or attempt to act more deliberately, when they feel that the normal game speed is too overwhelming.

When a player changes game speed, an autosave could be forced, permitting them to recover to that checkpoint to play the scenario over again. In other words, permitting variable game speed shifts the player's focus from tactics to strategy, from adrenal to analytical.

Wouldn't this be a good mixture of playing options? And, there's no change to the engine formulae or database statistics. Just add a few score-penalty switches, a "zoom" function on the game clock, and one more control to the UI. Voila!

Interesting idea. I think if it were implimented, it would bring up a warning saying you will not score or progress to the next mission if you go ahead with the speed change.

But war games are meant to be strategic and well thought out. Because of the limited control system, you can't hand out orders fast enough, even if you can work them out on the fly.

Perhaps let them slow down the game with no penalty, except in hard mode where it's completely disabled? The game should be accessable by a wide audience, not just experieced gamers.

also twitchy gamers. i'm an experienced gamer but it doesn't mean i'm twitchy as well. so who's to say experienced gamers don't play it slow? unless of course if the game's about racing. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/think.gif" alt="" />

There's several ways... to make an RPG's fighting - or action oriented aspect's fun. I truly don't think any of them are inherently better. Mostly, and truly - it will come down to personal opinion. So I will list several - i've seen, or had hands on experience with (I'll "try" to keep them recent, as i'm not sure, older games will be familiar...).

1. First Person RPG: ([color:"red"]Morrowind[/b][/color], [b][color:"red"]Vampire: the Masquerade - Bloodlines[/b][/color], [b][color:"red"]Arx Fatalis[/color][/b], Daggerfall, ect...)
[b]2. Tactical RPG: (Final Fantasy: Tactics (not Advanced), Shining Force, Ogre Battle)
3. 3rd Person RPG: (Never Winter Nights, Temple of Elemental Evil, Baldur's Gate *series*)
4. Hack&Slash RPG: (Diablo, Darkstone, Diablo 2, ect...)
5. Turn Based RPG: (Fallout, Fallout 2, Final Fantasy *most of the series was turned based I believe*)
6. Hybrid RPG: (Vagrant Story, Legend/Secret of Mana (SD) *series*, Kingdon Hearts)


Many of these have RPG slapped on them... but how many of them are? RPG, seems to not have the same meaning - from game to game. With diablo, your hand is held through the story - no ROLE is played. Your character has a fixed fate. Games like this, get labeled as RPGs all the time - but shouldn't. Divine Divinity is easily mistaken for such a game - but there's a true difference, options, decisions, actions - they have an effect on the character and the world around you. Truly a mistake to assume - simply due to a combat system - that it's "one thing" ... for truly a combat system, does not make a game - just like graphics don't make a game. Divine Divinity is a true example of this.

-

There's other such msitakes - but I believe - any combat system - in a game - can be used - and not have an impact on the actual "roleplaying" aspect of the game.

-

Personally i'm a fan of First person RPGs, like Vampire: the Masquerade - Bloodlines is going to be. But that's a personal thing. It's just as easy to mistake a first person RPG, for a First Person Shooter - when in fact the roleplaying aspects make it something compeltely different. And indeed a game can be in the first person - without having anything to do with "shooting things".

Behind that, I find Final Fantasy: Tactics (and other of that ilk) - to be a favorite, not only for its story (though not so much roleplaying) and combat system. A very interesting system.

-

Then there are things that are jsut... wierd - Vagrant Story, is a perfect example of this - but it's a wonderful game to play through - story wise... but more suttly cobmat wise. So many peopel get frustrated with it - unable to see how it's complexities make it so much more enthralling than your common combat system.

-

But then... that may all just be me.

Actually, I think the proper term for these games is isometric. 3rd person would be like Gothic or Gothic 2. But, as always, I could be wrong <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

Either or. Isometric is a style of graphical presentation, and third person simply means from an outsider's perspective. So it's both! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I dont know if this has been said but i definetly think you should be able to hold two weapons at a time. But i also think that you shouldnt be able to use a weapon until you have level one in the skill so if you decide to use a dual weapon thing then there also needs to be a skill for it. Also i think youshould be able to choose your starting skills (how ever many there is) at the begging. another suggestion is to be able to adjust the characters appearance more, i.e. more different faces, height alterations, weight, and hair etc. This will give the game a more personal feel. Also (again dont know if this has been said) but a networked cooprative mode where one person is the deathknight and the other is the 'hero'. also i would like to see a far greater number of armour types and looks aswell as new weapon types and other attacking items like knukle dusters for unarmed combat. Also (i cant remeber if this is in divinity or not) an unarmed skill like sword and axe skill. Also on the topic of character creation a choice of your characters voice would be nice.

I hope you take these suggestions into consideration as it will vastly increase the lifespan and gameplay of Beyond Divinity.

Well, IMO - it is more realist that you can not handle two weapons at once...
I own a sword, and - lord is it heavy. It is a two handed, and i can barely lift it with one...so just the balance of a sword i think it too much to have one on each arm.
Though i suppose you could have throwing knifes or whatever...but do you have time to pull them out?

Just a thought...

Theire are certain weapons that have 2 part one in each hand. I remember a fighting technique with 2 swords one long sword and one thats more dagger like.

As for combat system turnbased wouldn't be bad. When I look at the combat in <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beyond.gif" alt="" /> and all it's complex tactics you just have to press pause key. So why don't you make it mandatory then in <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/div.gif" alt="" />² .

it's kinda movie/anime style to go swinging around with 2 swords....it looks heroic...and i have 2 swords too..(real life)...it's very much doable too be swinging them both around at the same time....next time i'm gonna buy...a 2 handed sword if i can find one......

well obviously you not gonna be able to handle a two handed sword in one hand are ya, hence 2 HANDED. and you should really research stuff into the suggestion you wish to reply to before you reply as you can eisily hold two weapons, one in each hand, like an axe and a short sword or two swords or what morbo suggested about the medival technique where they use a sword (which actually is quite long and heavy) as well a dagger, so put some more thought into it first yeah?

What she means is that she can barely carry the sword with one hand, which isn't an impossible feat. She certainly can't use it with one hand.

It is just an OPINION - and i have every right to voice it here.
So...unless you have something NICE to say - don't say anything.

I was not putting down anyone in this forum with my thought.

maybe, the kotor's combat system, with his action queued system ? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

for games likes Diablo, diablo 2, BG, DD or other CRPG, the best way to progress is fighting monster <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/sad.gif" alt="" />
there is many way to solve quest but only one to defeat an enemy, kill him
I think the sneak could be another way but sneaking give you 0 XP, it is not valuate
the Lionheart system try to value the sneak skill but killing monster is much easier and more profitable than sneaking them
In lionheart, sneaking gives you XP and killing a monster too, and killing a monster gives you access to his inventory so, kill is more profitable

an example :
you meet a monster, the monster can gives you 100 XP by killing him, in the lionheart system, you could have up to 125 XP for that monster if you sneak
the XP for sneaking down the XP for killing so, you can won 124 Xp for sneaking and 1 and inventory for killing him, it's not balanced
in fact, you have killing him, you could win only 100 XP

maybe negative XP is the way, but there is a level up problem
or a fixed XP for each stage? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/sad.gif" alt="" />

I think I am confused in my explanation, and this foreign language don't help me <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/sad.gif" alt="" />
I think I am confused in my native language too <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/silly.gif" alt="" />

I'm more or less against monsters serving merely as source for experience points. Personally, I'd like more experience points given for solving quests (if possible without fighting at all) instead for killing monsters.

Alrik.

that was another thread right??..

what would be funny....is to have a weapon like Cloud had (FF7) That sword was huge....

being able to handle two weapons isnt an opinion its a fact that you can. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/silly.gif" alt="" />

Hmmm, I think the system of DD and Diablo good in that point that
you have to plan quickly (although I had some problems with that in DD
`cause I cant apply the right spell onto the right charakter (maybe cause I `ve been too lazy to patch by now <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/sleepey.gif" alt="" />)),
but I on the other hand like turnbased games too.
The Northland Saga of DSA was a very good trilogy with a nice combat system,
and still one of my favorite games allthough not an RPG Battle Isle 2,
where I `ve got to arrange my whole army every turn, and can train every unit
to get a perfekt killer, and after I arranged them I can see all armies
kill each other in video sequences (I liked the old vector graphics,
always looked nice to see the shots travel the way to you enemy crushing him to pieces, hehe)(another good one was history line, nice fight action with realistic story surrounding (at that time I created a referate about the first world war for school due to facts of that game <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />))

why? why would anyone want a weapon like that in a game? that is probably the most poorley designed sword ever created in the world of gaming and would ruin beyond devinity like it nearly ruined (a poor game anyway) ff7

You have it so wrong.

First of all, FF7 is not a poor game. There are many who claim it is the best FF, and there are some who claim it is the best RPG.

And secondly, FF7 is designed in a japanese cartoon kind of way, you know, anime. The main thing about anime is that it overexadurates certain features to emphasise them more. Like bigger heads so you could see emotions better, or crazy hairdo's. This is in NO way a flaw, it is simply a style. It is neither good nor bad. You can like it or not.

And lastly, the sword was made big to show Cloud's strength. I mean, if you're strong enough to even pick up that thing, let alone use it, you have got to be really powerful.

hehehe nice said....allthough Cloud's sword was kinda plain, it was huge and great.....and come on that guy weild it with one hand...how superb is that....or if you don't like that...try Sephiroth's blade...and btw the swords were kept big in FF8 and FF X.....nothing ruined the FF games.......especially not the weapons.......

yeah i suppose it wouldnt ruin an anime game but it might wreck <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beyond.gif" alt="" />

divinity's combat system is fine the way it is thanks