I'm not paying 45 euro to play a game I can't make a backup for myself from...

Larian: go with SafeDisc (above version 3.15) next time. Most CD burners can't produce working backup copies to disc, which is understandable 'cause of piracy, yet SafeDisc allows me to use a virtual drive so I can protect the original disc.

Divine Divinity was a great game, but I'll buy Sacred instead.

First of all, I can have some comprehension for your problem, but there is a thread about that not so far below this post.

Second, well, Larian could do that, that's something for the suggestion forum.

Third and last :

''Divine Divinity was a great game, but I'll buy Sacred instead.''

Divine Divinity also had loads of problems, and I think Sacred is not an exception.

geez. i'll defend a legitimate issue (like adraeus's), but what i hear you saying is that you'll pay for and play an inferior game (sacred) just because you can't make a backup copy??? and the game installs and runs fine, yet you won't play it (and pay for it)???
oh my.
why the hell do you need a backup copy? yeah, i know they're nice - heck, i have a laptop and would love to NOT have to take the disc with me...but try using the CD as it was intended and not as a frisbee - they last a long time!
geez, i've had music CDs, some for 13 years with TONS of play, and they still sound great.
just try taking care of your stuff.
my guess is, you'll recieve no sympathy here.
let 'er rip boys......

WHO GIVES A CRAP. j/k

Hello and welcome janderakker.
Thanks for telling us that you are not buying Beyond Divinity. We could've died without knowing that.
Also I thank you from every forum member for telling us you will buy Sacred. I think it is importan in every gentleman's life to know that jandeakker is buying Sacred.
Finally, thank you for adding another wonderful, rational and interesting new thread about the protection. After all, I think we need more than five.
Have a nice day.

Now I wouldn't go calling Sacred an "inferior game", IMO Sacred is a bit better then BD.

Sacred has copy protection too tho. It's a bigger issue with Sacred tho because the manual tells you you can make a back-up copy (in the EULA) but then has protection preventing it.

you're right xaishi, i shouldn't have called sacred inferior. i apologize. actually, i rather enjoyed the game for a while myself.
however, for me, any new game that is simply a clone of diablo II (simple hack and slash) is inferior to either of the divinity products...but that is just my view.
i find those (type) games to be a lot like the BFs of BD in fact. good for a 'break' in having to concentrate - but not very thought provoking in themselves.
sorry if i stepped on any toes with the sacred assessment.

Fair enough, but I think you'll find that this particular protection will end up on a lot of new games. Especially if it proves difficult to copy. You might be missing out on some great games. Although I'm dead against disc protections, this is by far the worst for resources, and I'll probably miss most games out myself, or get them for the xbox.

I'm quite happy to do it though, are you?

>Divine Divinity was a great game, but I'll buy Sacred instead.

LOL! Here's something from the Sacred forums:

"Your copy protection = your lost $$
So, can't play this game. It fails copy protection on my main system using the original install disks that I just bought from a retail outlet today.

It installs on my secondary system, and seems to try to run, but that's not the point. I don't want to play on that system, I want to use my main computer."

So Sacred has the same problems...

People just have to realise that all games are copy-protected these days. Of course, cry about it all you want if it makes you feel better, but don't expect much sympathy - we all have to deal with it.

What happend to the days were games were protected by a serial that could be found everywhere on then internet. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cry.gif" alt="" />

The days haven't changed much from then, only difference now is you need to get a cracked exe for the game that bypasses CD protection instead of a serial number. Funny, cuz all this effort is beeing put into stopping pirates, yet the only people it's stopping is legit players who don't want to deal with all that crap. The pirates just get cracks and continue like usual.

Another thing, if somebody is trying to get a game illegally, it's because they can't afford to buy it (or have no interest in spending money on it). So even if some miracle came around that could stop pirates, publishers wouldn't be gaining anything. They are just blowing their money on this CD-protection crap that's not doing anything cept give people headaches.

Not that I've had any problems with this StarForce thing.. yet.


PS: Larian has nothing to do with StarForce being on your CD, this stuff is handled by publishers, AKA "Hip Games". So posting about it here isn't doing anything.

Yep, spot on. If somebody can only afford one game and they want two, one will get copied.

All true. The fact of the matter is: The only person who can't copy a game is a legit user, who has no experience with copying or cracks. These people, and only these people, are the only example of the copy protection doing it's job. And as the copy protection wasn't aimed at them, it's kinda funny <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

Hmm, if you guys think Sacred is better than Beyond Divinity, then I highly doubt that Beyond Divinity is a good game.
Sacred sucked big time compared to Diablo and/or Divine Divinity.

Sure, it has a huge world and cool looking characters, but c'mon, you kill and kill and kill and kill and kill and what do you get? You don't get jack [nocando] for those kills.

And it was possible to make a backup copy of Sacred.

Actually only a few people said they like Sacred more than BD. Why don't you check for yourself?
After all, I say that Arcanum is the all time best computer game yet I do not know anyone who'd agree with me.

I too liked Arcanum, but it had a lot of flaws which has kept me from replaying a third time.
First you have the pretty plain graphics (which I don't mind too much) but the animations were pretty off as well. However I can live with this

Secondly, the Non-turn based combat was way too fast. Didn't matter that much since I prefer Turn based anyway

Also the game was quite hard in the beginning but got way too easy after mid game. The only way too make it a bit more difficult was to play as a technologist with a gun (which I did the second time I played it).

Hated the golems (or whaterver) that caused your weapons to break.

Also the large city (can't remember the name, It was in the middle of the map. Tarrant or something). Because of the plain graphics it was very difficult to find your way around there.

I do like the story (espacially the settings), most of the voiced characters were interesting.

Here's a proof of what I said. So if someone likes Sacred more than BD, it doesn't instantly make this a general rule.

As far as buying Sacred instead of Beyond Divinity -- bad move. I have both of the games, and while I like them both, Beyond Divinity is far better. Not getting Beyond Divinity because of the copyright protection on it is a pretty stupid reason not to buy an excellent game.

Mate have you even put up with that copy protection it takes BLODDY 3-5 MINUTES!!!!! checking the cd!!!!! This is why I returned it immediately!!!!!! I was so pissed off!!! I purchased Sacred as well but at least there is a nocd patch for it, and is very convenient 80AUD spent well I reckon sacred kicks this games [nocando] cos it is user freindly and gives the vibe that its a game not some copy protection game where you have to beat the EVIL EVIL status bar checking the cd ARGH!!!!

Oh my gosh! 3-5 minutes of your live? No way! I totally understand why you returned it! I mean, sometimes, when your driving, it takes like over 5 minutes to get somewhere, because of traffic lights! Lets never drive again! Its like, so, so, disgusting! Get rid of the game immediatly! HOLY CRAP! 3-5? This is just wrong. Wrong wrong wrong. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/puppyeyes.gif" alt="" /> I can't believe Larian.

If you only have an hour or less to play, 5 mins just to get past the CD check can be a real pain in the butt.

I won't reply to ACGuY's post because you can see, by the overused exclamation sign, that he is an idiot.

As for you, Xaishi, 60-5=55. You have 55 minutes to play.
I should also add that it takes less than a minute to check the CD on my computer which is far from top of the line.

Except that it doesn't take 5 minutes. 10 seconds at the most.

When waiting for something on your computer, 5 minutes is a lot. I know that when I have to wait like ten seconds i'll too exaggerate alot, so I doubt it really takes 5 mins.

60/5 = 12

Which means an entire 1/12 of your game time is gone. That's a pretty hefty amount.

And I dunno how long it takes on his machine, neither do you. Maybe it does take 5mins. For me it takes like 5 seconds, but I have a pretty nice set-up. I would also never play a game for only an hour, <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> was just making a point.

You tell'em.

Welcome to the forum too <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />

What you have to remember here is that most people love Larian, it doesn't matter what protection they use, or what inconvenience it causes, this lot will still worship them.

Don't try to help them out with advice; they don't want to be helped.

interesting. and you're right, there are now a couple different no cd patches for sacred - but did you know that fully 50-80% of the time you go 'down' or 'up' into a cave, tunnel, etc. you'll end up on the "beach"?
reloading and trying to make it down the cave entrance 6 times is vastly more irritating (and time consumming) than waiting for the cd check. and god-forbid you forgot to save immediately prior to your attempt at the tunnel entrance/exit!
but perhaps you've not played enough to experience this issue. you'll enjoy it. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/puppyeyes.gif" alt="" /> and i look forward to reading your rants on the sacred forum sites. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/stupid.gif" alt="" />

With my pc the CP check takes only 10 secs Is my PC broken?

xaishi, couldn't resist...sorry up front <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />



but doesn't that also mean you have approximately 91.67% of your hour left to play?
that seems a pretty fair amount and certainly a large enough portion to become immersed in game-play.
commercials on an hour long television show account for a full 16 minutes of the program time - but seinfeld was still funny! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/stupid.gif" alt="" /> (oh, and that would be over 26.5%)
gods, i wish i only had to work 8.3% of the day to get my paycheck! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

just teasin' all! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/evilgrin1.gif" alt="" />

Sure, 91% is a lot, but I'd much rather spend 100% of the time playing instead. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />

How about if you're boss cut your pay so you only get 91%? Sure that's still probably enough to live off of, but would you not be upset? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/stupid.gif" alt="" />

Oh, and I don't watch TV. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/silly.gif" alt="" />

ha!!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />



actually, if i only had to work 8.3% of the day for 91% of my pay, i'd JUMP at the opportunity! who wouldn't? 2 hours work for 91% of my present pay???? woohoo!
c'mon xaishi, you can come up with a better argument than that!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

okay, no t.v. - hmmm. how about this - would you not happily drive 5 minutes to spend the remaining 55 minutes with the woman of your dreams???? holy cow yes! of course you would. who wouldn't?!? (kiya, no response here please...) <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/evilgrin1.gif" alt="" />
[this of course assumes she'd actually wish to spend time with me ...
but hey, that's a different story all together! (hmmm, the percentage chance would be, well, small...but c'mon, it's MY thought!)]

by your logic it's better to eat a microwaved burrito than a pork roast rubbed with rosemary and thyme because the burrito is faster! yuck!
(okay, i actually DO eat microwaved burritos once in a while. but i'd rather have the roast!) <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/stupid.gif" alt="" />

Sure, but let's not compare games with women. That's a strange and disturbing road which I'd rather not venture down today. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />


I'd take the 60 second burito over a roast any time. I don't eat anything that takes longer then 10 minutes to get/cook unless somebody's made it for me. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/silly.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/offtopic.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/question.gif" alt="" />

yes, quite <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/offtopic.gif" alt="" />
but so much funnier than what was going on prior. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

so damn, does this mean we have to compare burritos with women?

we could get in a lot of trouble here......
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/evilgrin1.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/evilgrin1.gif" alt="" />

(btw, i like women more than pork roast - and i think i've expressed my affection for that! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />)

5 minutes.. how annoying.
What're your system specs.

It doesn't take five minutes for me, but I've noticed I can make a difference. If I just start the game, it can take 15-20 seconds before the game is started. But if I have the CD-slide come out, and then put it back in again, and start the game at the moment the drive begins to read on the CD (you can hear the CD beginning to spin), then it only takes 3-5 seconds. Perhaps it helps.

And yes, starforce really is a pain, almost inacceptable.

What you should do, xAcesx, is respect other people.
You don't know them, you know nothing about their life, you do not know what they do.
So please, keep those critics to yourself.
The one who needs help, especially in respecting others, it's you.
Or did I misunderstand your post?
Or was that sarcasm?
Didn't seem to be the case.

I see, lets look at your post: You're telling me what I know; You're telling what to do; You're telling me what I need, and you're telling me how I relate to people.

let's look at the facts: You don't know me, you know nothing about my life, you don't know what I do.

Is ok if I go around doing this instead? (insert sarcasm here <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />)

As your post is amied directly at me, and my comments weren't aimed at anyone inparticular, I don't think there's any harm done on my account. I don't mind taking a bit of flak (especially if it's funny).

Considering it was the guys first post, he should have been greeted better than he was, to encourage him to use the forum. I stand by what I said, if larian released a plague, eveyone in here would want it <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/stupid.gif" alt="" />

That's cuz it takes a few seconds for the CD drive to get up to speed. I don't think you're saving any time with that method, how long does it take to open the CD tray, close it, then wait for the CD to get up to speed? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/think.gif" alt="" />

Mine takes like 4 seconds for the CD to get to the right speed, then 4 seconds to do the CD check. So 8 seconds from the time I click on the icon to the time the Larian intro starts.

Here a couple of posts from CD-Freaks: You might find them interesting!

Post 1:
-------

seems the signature on starforce disks is so critical and without any kind of error correction, that once it has collected a few scratches you may well find your original will no longer authenticate.

Of course this is what game producers really want to hear, a protection system that is virtually uncopyable, and gives the discs a very short time out value. Starforce gives pc game disks an equivalent to the consumers the disposable DVD time bomb, but you pay full RRP for the privelage.

This will end up affecting the consumer severely as it will also hit the second game market very hard, and you never know it may also backfire on producers who use the protection.

Post 2:
-------

This is why Starforce have a "customer" line. They know that problem quite well. You should e-mail them and will send u a new key.
And you are right. Starforce is not only quite sensitive to scratchs, but the drive state too.
By this i means that launching the copy after a ripping process ( for example), when the drive is overheated wil make the checks fails even with an original and in a perfect state copy. On the other way, the "weather" of your room where important too. In a very cool room, drive is "slowest" till all the system warms up, and copy will fail too first check.
Rebooting, or just waiting a few minutes will make the copy to work again.
Starforce is very picky with that, and they know that. If you have a scratched CD, then email them, and will obtain a UNIQUE key that will only work on THAT PC.
Checks are so accurate, that a simple scratch will make everything to fail.
in the other way, u can try to copy ur backup and launch it with Alcohol, and will work, but u know what limitations u will find.

Post 3:
-------

And then what if 1 of my kidz want to borrow the ORIGINAL to use on their comp, because they certainly are not gonna use my comp.
[My favourite part ^ <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ROFL.gif" alt="" /> ]


No software EULA can say licenced for 1 person 1 comp, for the life of that comp ONLY, not ONE component change. next it will be DRM injections @ birth not paid cant see the movie/ listen to the music, play the game.

This is taking intelectual ownership to the extreme where you cannot even share ORIGINALS within your own household. and no its not illegal, 1 ORIGINAL = 1 PLAYER even if you got 20 kids in your house each with a comp. On top of that its more loss to software authors, In the past you could go to a friends with an ORIGINAL and show him/her the game, have some fun and they may well pop out and buy it that week. BIggest advertising is word of mouth, it can make a company and break a company and has 1000s X's more power than tv or internet adds.

Any game in the future protected to such an extent can Kiss it, It will be returned.
-----------------

Parhaps this is why it wouldn't work on that laptop someone posted about ?? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/think.gif" alt="" />

For the benefit of those who don't understand what's been said: Your game will fail to work at some point due to scratches. You can then obatin a key which will launch the game. The bad news is that the key is generated according to what hardware and software you have installed (software - OS). This means if you upgarde some aspect of your computer, your key won't work. This also means, you can only install it one machine. So if you kids using another machine, you'll have to buy them a seperate copy of the game.

@ xAcesx:

( edit: I talked about the fact you said posters were blind followers, not about the fact you responded to the new forum member. Your right, I don't know you, I know nothing about your life... etc, etc... but I didn't say I knew you. )

I'm sorry I said you needed help in respecting other people.
Not my intention to ''flak'' you.

My post was aimed at you...
But I stayed reasonable...
I didn't call you a ( insert ''forbidden'' words here ).

You greeted a newcomer.
That's nice of you, it's true he could have used a warmer welcome.

Obviously, your post isn't aimed at anyone in particular, because it's aimed at everyone.

You say it yourself:

''I stand by what I said, if larian released a plague, eveyone in here would want it''

Meh... not me thanks...

You talk about posters like if they were Brainwashed Followers of Larian the Great.

''I don't think there's any harm done on my account.''

Well yes there is. ( to anyone who actually cares )

''I don't mind taking a bit of flak (especially if it's funny).''

Sooo I'm a random pathetic guy that takes his pleasure to blam everybody?
Saying my post was funny is like saying it was another episode of ''Gilmore Girls''
Maybe I'm just taking this line to serious. If so, excuse me again.

Anyway, I don't think we are getting nowhere, both of us.
There is no use in trying to convince the other that he's right...

You have your point of view...
I said what I think of it...

I don't think I can change that...
I'm not mister ''Always-Right''.

I do not mean you should shut up and not respond to my post.
You can answer it, your free to do it.

But I think I said everything I had to say...

I just had other cases in other forums where such discussion were 3-page long, and ended up nowhere.

We should ( not have to ) get back to the initial subject...

@Ghaleor

Ok, back to the topic. What do you think about starforce?

I think that after reading this I need to quickly make a backup of my BD disc.

I've been reading quite a few forums, and things are pretty bad. Without exception, everyone is talking about avoiding these games. Loads have already been returned to shops. Now I know why BD dropped £10 in game. People must be returning it in droves!

It looks to me like to like starforce is damaging sales, and future sales. But the companies that use this, only have themselves to blame. They're losing their legitimate buyers, fans, and casual gamers in the process. People who are unsure about what starforce does are frightened of installing games with it, because they lack the knowledge to rectify their system.

This will effect sales more than piracy ever did. There's even talk about Half-Life 2 and DOOM 3 beening avoided if they use it. And these are the most eagarly awaited games of this year.

Just so I get this straight, to see if I'm still following:

Starforce is not a program that copies the game on a CD, but it is a program that makes a backup file so you do not have to use the CD.

Games have a copy-protection, that de-install Starforce.
With the copy protection, if you want to install the game on another computer, you have to get another copy.

So what's the problem of Starforce? If it only makes a backup file on your computer, I don't see what harm is done to the company.

Starforce is a disc protection to stop you copying the game.



Starforce will not be uninstalled when you uninstall the game. You need a special tool to remove it. Typically, you will need to buy a copy of the game for each machine you install it on. 4 machines = 4 copies of the game need to be purchased. This is only the case however, if your disc is slightly scratched. If you need an activation key to bypass the check, your key will become invalid if you change any hardware on your machine, or make significant changes to the windows environment.



The protection is causing widespread panic amongst the non-technical and outrage among the rest. Many games have been return to the shops because of this, and the fact that <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beyond.gif" alt="" /> has dropped £10 in week over here, isn't really good for the retailers either.

The protection can cause some severe problems for some, and minor problems for others. This can be anything from random reboots, data loss, driver conflicts, hardware failure, and a myriad of other things that are being uncovered.

As Marian stated in another thread, Larian has nothing to do with Starforce: it was the publisher's decision.

Yes that's right, but it's Larian who'll be made to suffer for it.

True, sadly. They definitly don't deserve this.

Ok, know I'm beginning to understand the problem a bit.
I personally do not have any problem with this thing.

This protection thing, does it only harm those with some sort of CDcopy-program, or can it happen to anybody, like me?

Because I do not have any problems...

For now.

I do not need to install my game on another computer, nobody would care here <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />.
But for the ones that have two computers, and has to get two copies...

Yes... I would be quite mad too, I suppose.

What you have to remember here is that most people love Larian, it doesn't matter what protection they use, or what inconvenience it causes, this lot will still worship them.

Don't try to help them out with advice; they don't want to be helped.
------

Um? Of course they don't want advice? Yeah, that forum thingy called suggestion? You know its only because they sai "Hey, what the hell, lets through a few of those in, it looks good" and they just post there cuz they don't actually mind.

Worship? No, worshiping would mean going to the great Church of Divine and bowing down the picture of the divine lady and giving our money and kissing its feet. Does anyone here do that? Um. No. Sorry.


Hee. I'm getting ready for a flame war, it sounds fun doesn't it? We're all getting tense, if someone just made one bad comment it could happen. Its so nice isn't it?


Im 10.

It won't come to a flame war so I won't advise you to start one yourself.



What? I think you said last year you were 13. Are you aging backwards? How old were you in 1997?

I was joking <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" /> this time.

Good. And I won't. I'll be like Nobby, just wait till its over, then take their boots.

1997? I donna, 50?

Why am I not suprised. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Actually Im not, so, wala! be suprised!

well, for all who read this thread;

if u like the game but don't like the protection, DON'T buy it.
if u like the game but afraid of the problems mentioned here, DON'T buy it.
if u like the game but not willing to buy it, DON'T pirate it.

if u have bought the game, & don't like the protection, by all means get a refund.
if u have bought the game & don't like it, by all means get a refund.

if u have bought the game & have previous two problems, & wishing to let people know about it, by all means please do. publishers & developers & gamers will value your opinions.

telling it once is stating opinion. stating it twice is clarifying it. thrice is pushing it. fourth comes to shove. fifth says u're sick. 6th turns fetish.

thanks for letting us know about how bad starforce protection is. as i have said in my other post in other thread regarding the same issue, don't just buy things impulsely & because u're weak against temptations. use your logic, experience, principles & moral standing. if u buy it despite knowing the problems, u're asking for it. problems, that is.

not directed at particular persons. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" /> glad all of u keep things civil. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/up.gif" alt="" />

To be sure, read the reviews here.

ghaleor -



just to let you know, i have the game (single copy) installed on both my desktop and my laptop. i've experienced no problems what-so-ever with 'multiple' machine setups.

No, he meant if you scratch the CD and the CD check no longer works, then you get a key from the starforce people and that key will only work on 1 machine. If your CD is fine then you can install and play the game on as many machines as you want.

ahhh. my bad.
i thought it wasn't understood about the key and that the game itself could only be loaded (and played) from a single machine.

Copy protection is a scam. It doesn't actually prevent copying, not in the long run. It may well keep 'casual' users from copying stuff, but anyone seriously determined (or at least determined enough to do a few web searches, which aren't exactly rocket science)? No. If you really and truly believe this Starforce thing won't be broken, assuming it hasn't been already? Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. Ha.

It serves no purpose except to make the publishers think they're protecting their investment (without actually providing any real protection). And, of course, to inconvenience the end users. Heaven help you if you've got an incompatible optical drive (or, if half of what's been reported about Starforce is true, a scratched CD or a computer room that's not the right temperature).

It should go away forever. It won't, of course, because publishers need to be seen to be Doing Something about piracy.

If you read my post closer, you will notice that I say "if the game becomes scractched, and you use a CD-Key".

I undestand what you're saying, and hate the porotections too. But I feel it is ultimately the responsibility of the law enforcement agencies to prevent piracy, not the games industry.

Anybody with the IQ of a well trained chimp can copy a game, get fixes, or whatever. They're wasting money on protections, when they should be bring pressure to bear on the people responsible for the law, and the ones who enforce it.

Since Divinity 2 will have a multiplayer, I think Larian should forget Starforce and switch to CD-Key protection.

Sounds good <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/delight.gif" alt="" /> Seems to work for Blizzard.

Well, you know, xAcesx that whatever Blizzard does, it works for them <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />.

Thanks for the overwhelming response <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />

I'll try to answer a few people:

@ Lego : gaining sympathy was not the reason for my post, but there seem to be a lot more people who (partially) agree with me;

@ Deathatthedoor : no thanx, just helping you to reach 3000+ responses on this board;

@ His Divine Shadow e.a. : I accept copy protection, but I don't want to spend TIME sending back malfunctioning discs etcetera.


Protections like Starforce or Securom 5(*) and will not be a problem for (semi)professional pirates (e.g. factories in mainland China or Russia) which use similar production equipment as the original disc manufacturer. Game publishing companies are only making backup copies impossible for the average customer.

Greetings...good luck with your favourite teams on Euro 2004!


(*)note: Securom 5 can't be physically copied because the protection is embedded in the spiral track on the disc during the production process, it can however be emulated by measuring sector delays and writing these delays to the TOC of the disc.

jandeakker
you'll probably never read this, but, of course you were looking for sympathy. perhaps not the "oh, poor boy" type,
but sympathetic to your cause. you're effectively looking for others to join you in boycotting a game due to the CP scheme.
the problem is this, your basic premise is flawed. nowhere in your initial post do you express any difficulties in using
the game disks - only in copying them.
were you simply trying to a make a point, you'd have sent an email directly to the companies involved. by expressing
in a forum you can't even be sure the company will ever see your thoughts.
firstly, as stated before, take care of your stuff and you needn't worry so much about backups.
secondly, by your logic, you'd never buy a house built in 1960 because it doesn't come with a warranty. you'd never buy
a used car, a used book, or (god forbid!) a used CD...because none of these items come with a warranty (return policy) -
meaning, you can't make a backup of them! oh my.
life is full of caveat emptor. use common sense, not only in your purchases, but in your responsibility of those purchases as
well.
a number of posts have pointed out quite legitimate reasons for not liking this copy protection - you simply made a wild
statement.
should we be able to make backups? yes. could this be an irritant? yes. have people expressed real concerns with this
CP? yes. but is the simple fact you can't make a backup enough for a person to not play a game they would like to play?
silly.
your arguments are far from compelling.
but thanks for playing. have a nice life.

Most of your statement was fair enough, but comparing these is just being silly. You must remember, when you buy a game it says "COPY ME" in the EULA, none of the above do. Most of the others come with insurance, and are repairable <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />

Well, here we go again! So i'll get us started...

agreed. none of the listed say 'copy me'.
but of the 4, only the house has insurance (due to the intital cost). any other insurance must be purchased at an additional cost.
from reading the posts, starforce can also be repaired.

no, my problem is NOT with posters like yourself that have gone on to explain legitimate issues and how they may even have hidden consequences.
it's simply with someone who tries to gain support based on a limited premise.

Yep, he did have a bit of a rant when he came in. But he was probably just upset about the protection.

Sometimes people let off a bit of steam in the forums (as i'm sure you know). I try and inform people about what the possible problems there might be. I have some tech knowledge, and try to use it for everyones benefit <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

The points you made are quite valid, and make an interesting argument. And I look forward to reading more of them <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />

don't get me wrong, this CP does not sound like a good thing! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/stupid.gif" alt="" />
and i'll not defend it's use.

i just wish he'd read or added to adraeus's post from the night before his. it almost seems as though he did read it and simply jumped on the bandwagon - but without the support of adraeus's or your knowledge.
posts like the above, or what you've pointed to, are vitally important and need to be seen - hopefully to facilitate change.
and as said before, i applaud those of you who are informed and willing to pass that knowledge on - even at the expense of possibly being flamed (please note, i defended adraeus <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />)

Blizzard uses both a CD copy protection and a CD key. The CD key is for multiplayer mainly, the copy protection is the base security. Any game that has free multiplayer usually does the same, then they just ban your CD key when they want to.

www.vladc.com

This guy seems to have had a bit of trouble with the Divine Divinity CD.

Yes, it only took 30 seconds, but we live in a day and age of laziness, did you know 90% of internet browsers hit the BACK button if a site takes more then 2 seconds to load what they were looking for??

Thats why most people will just buy games which have a nocd patch, why suffer when you can play games comfortably?

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/div.gif" alt="" /> wasn't protected with StarForce.

Well I think game companys have the right to protect their products ...I hav'nt had any problems with the Copy Protection...If u look after your disks they should last a life-time +++Remembers He still has a DRAGON ED. of Ultima @ home in perfect condition+++

Thats my 2c worth ...

Cheers <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Welcome, Moonfrost!

I wholeheartedly agree with you. Companies do have a right to protect their products. If you don't like it, don't buy it. 'Nuf said. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />


Faralas <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mage.gif" alt="" />

Er... Whatever you say Faralas and Moofrost.

not whatever.... that's just the way it is....

like it or lump it! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

are we gonna keep flogging this dead horse, or what???

getting awfully tired of this.... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/sleepey.gif" alt="" />

Then don't repsond to it, if you're so sick of it. I didn't keep this thread going either. I was compelled (just like you) to make a post in it <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />, so don't moan about someone else doing it, when you're doing it yourself.

a guy here said his BD had starforce in his folder.

true?

http://www.gonegold.com/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=14&t=003314#000017

Just something else I want to refer to, sth I've seen in this thread at GoneGold:

"LYNN from Larian says
" BD wasn't protected with StarForce."

I have never said that, what I said was:

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/div.gif" alt="" /> wasn't protected with StarForce

I was referring to Divine Divinity.

A Jedi saying to another one :

"By the Stars ... may the Force be with you !"

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />

(Which leads me into the question whether the makers of "StarForce" were StarWars fans, hm ? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />

I don't know about that, but they weren't fans of gamers <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

I think the main issue here is that Starforce drivers are installed without notifying the PC owner and are not removed (again without notification) once the game is uninstalled.

I have no issue with copy protection but I do object to this type of stealth installation.

After reading through the threads on this forum relating to this issue I'm appalled at some of the sarcastic responses offered up by Larian employees to this issue. I'm a fan of the DV & BD games. I even bought two copies of DV so that I could give one to a friend. I've brought up the merits of the game with other gamers and recommended a purchase whenever possible.

However - after seeing the cavalier attitude of Larian to what some people consider a legitimate problem I will not be purchasing any future Larian products. Will this have any impact upon Larian? - no. Just thought I'd let you know why you've lost a customer.

Have fun and continued success.

"...why the hell do you need a backup copy? yeah, i know they're nice - heck, i have a laptop and would love to NOT have to take the disc with me...but try using the CD as it was intended and not as a frisbee - they last a long time!
geez, i've had music CDs, some for 13 years with TONS of play, and they still sound great. just try taking care of your stuff. my guess is, you'll recieve no sympathy here. let 'er rip boys......"

Whoever posted this comment obviously doesn't have kids. Simply put, my kids will destroy a disc in less than a few days and having backups is the only way they can play a game that I paid 50 bucks for. That said, the issue with intellectual property is that the disc (that is, the piece of round laminated plastic) is not the intellectual property, but rather the software code that is imprinted on it. That's why downloading copies of this is illegal. That much almost anyone can agree on. However, software companies want to have their cake and eat it. Once I've tendered my money and have an access number, I AM a licensed user. I should be able to go to Larian's web site and download a fresh copy to recover the data from my destroyed disc.

Software companies don't address this. If someone has paid for a license, why is there no way for the publisher to allow you access to the material if your copy was destroyed? Answer? They don't believe it any more than you do. They treat these things as point of sale obligations only, that is, once it breaks, then you have to buy a new one. So if that's the case, then it isn't much defense against someone copying a disc under fair use rules. They HAVE to allow you to back it up because they themselves don't offer any other way.

Ralph

2 questions.


How old are your kids?

And why don't you teach them to take care of the disc, or don't let them handle the discs if they are too young?

In my personal experiance kids are lovely with discs.

"It looks to me like to like starforce is damaging sales, and future sales. But the companies that use this, only have themselves to blame. They're losing their legitimate buyers, fans, and casual gamers in the process. People who are unsure about what starforce does are frightened of installing games with it, because they lack the knowledge to rectify their system."

I certainly believe that. One of the things that many software and media companies forget is that proprietary rights is a double edged sword. If you don't have a critical mass out there wanting your stuff, then no one will hear about it to even consider buying it. Look at the Apple vs PC model a few years ago. Further, many of the Hollywood stars we have today are only stars because people want to see them; people want to see certain movies because of buzz, or word or mouth. It doesn't matter if that movie or game is pirated or not. If it's good, it will create buzz, and the more that's out there, the more buzz, and hence more sales. Not every gamer is a pirate, most own legit store bought copies. However, if the publisher decided to cripple the store bought copies, then they've effectively crippled their ONLY source of revenue from this. One bad turn is repeated amoungst local gamers to avoid a certain game because the "discs don't work." Even my 10 year old has already repeated this stuff to me. "Don't buy that one Daddy, my friend said that game has problems, they CD player doesn't read them and he had to bring them back." That is usally all it takes for me to walk on by.

Ralph

lews,

2 questions.

do you have kids?

how old are they?

Chud,

No. If I did, well, that would be a little wrong. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />


0 years old.

just a little... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ROFL.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ROFL.gif" alt="" /> Me??? Kids??? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/delight.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ROFL.gif" alt="" /> Thanks for making me laugh today!

"2 questions. How old are your kids? And why don't you teach them to take care of the disc..."

Gee thanks Lews. Now why didn't I think of that. I'll get on it right away.

"...or don't let them handle the discs if they are too young? In my personal experiance kids are lovely with discs."

"Me??? Kids??? Thanks for making me laugh today!"

Gee Lews, coming from someone with no kids, I'm sure you're an expert on how to teach kids how to handle anything. No offense, but grow yourself two or five of them, then talk to me about how to teach kids to handle discs properly. Life doesn't work that way, and neither does kids. That's just the way it is. That's why there are back ups. And frankly, I know of some adults who treat their discs worst than my kids (in fact, I married one).

Ralph

Gee thanks Lews. Now why didn't I think of that. I'll get on it right away.
----

I don't know. But I'm glad I could be helpful and you can start! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />





Yep! I am an expert on how to teach kids anything!

Ok, wait a few years!

Back ups? Eh, Bloody lumps!

Well, that last one is true, can't help you there though.

Should I tell him? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/think.gif" alt="" /> Maybe later.

@ Ralph, most of this is a joke actually.

I know kids can be horrors at taking care of things, I just don't think we can blame a copy protection thats bad because you got kids. Thats all. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" /> Make sure they never toucht he discs! Put em above their heads!

@Ralph:so far I have 3 games now with Starforce protection on my PC => Black Mirror, Syberia 2 (both adventures) and BD => no probs in installing either one. No problems with my PC (lock up, stubborn DVD or CD drive). No problem in playing them - Starforce versions do not seem to meddle with another. I'm not sure if the Spellforce addon is Starforce, but no prob here either. My CD read/write is even one that was named as being problematic with Starforce (not detecting the CD). I'm glad, my drive apparently does not know it is on a list of Starforce refusers. Maybe I'm lucky?

@general: I have no burn programs on my PC, no virtual drive - maybe this could be a reason for my non-probs. I don't download anything else than patches from the official sites, driver updates. C'est tout.

In any case, no protection has so far prevented me from buying a game I want to have - I have never burned a CD as a backup. The only CD I lost and had to re-buy was a game I lent to a friend, she broke it by accident, that's life.

I have never (so far) listened to someone telling me => don't buy this game, it won't run on... - I try it out myself.

I can't judge if a protection program damages sales - it doesn't in my case. And as you can see from the games I named => they are not all Larian <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" /> (just in case someone thinks this gamer here is merely a Larian fan girl and worships blindly)

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/offtopic.gif" alt="" /> @general: And about people not taking care of their CD => yes, I can underline this. I'm in charge of non-book media at my library and wonder how some adults (!) and youths treat DVD, CD-ROM, CD, videos. But this is not the fault of a protection program, hm? We make no backups in our library (regulations) - and I get very angry if I see a CD copy, because a member tried to cheat us <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/memad.gif" alt="" /> by keeping the original CD. If I can prove who damaged it, they have to replace it fully. In one case, I succeeded in blocking a member for a year because of this.
About the 3 games I mentioned => I have bought them for my library, no complaints so far - and members know, I check every complaint on my PC - so they can take another game for free.
Kiya

@general: 4 weeks ago, I had to check 3 games from the library - not sure if Sands of Time was the Starforce proggie, but it turned out this way => the gamer had not installed the Windows XP Service packs - after that he could play all 3. And I know, one of them was Starforce. Wish, I could remember the other 2 (one was a football game). Why I write this? Because it's not always the fault of Starforce... There are so many reasons why a game doesn't run - and in... some... very... rare... cases => it can be the gamer's system.

StarForce FAQ

Not to belabor an issue that's already been well discuss (as I came into the thread late also) but my final conclusion about CD antipiracy codes is this; while it may stop initial attempts at piracy, the pirates will ALWAYS find a way around it, such that the scheme becomes moot to them; while some portion of regular customers who pays for such discs will ALWAYS have problems and returns the discs, ultimately hurting sales. So in the end, the pirates crack the scheme while the publishers' themselves have hurt sales. So who really wins?

Take a hint from the 800 pound gorilla in software protection schemes (M$). Despite the many phone home registration things that Gates puts into his programs, pirates have always found ways around it, but the bulk of customers do pay for it. If you make it so troublesome for them even after they pay for it, they may look to the dark side just to get the thing to work.

The aspect of "proper care of discs" is also moot. The hardier a technology, the longer lasting. If something is built as a house of cards that can easily collapse, then product longevity is usually adversely affected. It's more about human nature, buying patterns, and the subjective sense of product value rather than coding.

Ralph

It is against the law to copy protect discs. I've already stated this previously, and anyone protecting games in this manner, can't really complain about pirates, people who takes their games back after copying or anybody else.

However, I bet Larian (or their pub) don't use star force on their next product, whether it's breakable or not.

From what I can see , you have two kinds of people: "I don't mind protections" and "I do mind protections".

Let's look at the first: Some people don't mind having their rights taken away, and they don't mind others breaking the law. If these people don't want their rights that's fine with me, and if they approve of laws being broken that's also fine with me. It's your choice...

And the other side: People who must have a backup copy of their stuff. Often in the firing line of the above group, who think they should also give up theirs rights. These are also "close relatives" to the pirate industry according to most people, and are frowned upon by most forum members.

It will be a cold day in hell before I willingly give up my rights tho' <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/evilgrin1.gif" alt="" />

"...People who must have a backup copy of their stuff. Often in the firing line of the above group, who think they should also give up theirs rights..."

Again, if the industry at large did not treat their products like disposable inventory, but as a true software license (ie you can get another copy anytime you needed to) then we wouldn't be at this juncture.

Ralph

And an even colder day if I change MY mind, xAcesx. I only have one thing bugging me - shall I name my Terrier whelp Starforce or xAcesx, when it doesn't cease to tear at the shoe, rattle and shake it, until ears and tail fly into all directions <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/think.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" /> Quite cute, but that's all.

Frontiers are fix IMO, there is no necessity to discredit those with a differing opinion. E.g. => "worship a certain Dev" or "allow to be stripped of rights" and whatever else you have freely spread throughout the threads dealing with this matter.

In case you find my post patronising+arrogant - might be - I'm just fedup with reading discrediting insinuations and nudges against those who don't mind copy protection. It's not about differing opinions, not meant to cut freedom of speech - it's about the way you phrase it. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/suspicion.gif" alt="" /> - if you can => patch this, please.
Kiya

"...Frontiers are fix IMO, there is no necessity to discredit those with a differing opinion. E.g. => "worship a certain Dev" or "allow to be stripped of rights..." Kiya

I agree with you Kiya, that different opinions are bound to happen and we should all learn to live with the fact that the guy next to us may not think exactly like us. That said, the issue of rights is not so much an unreasonable idea when viewed upon the fair use principle under copyright law. This is something that legalist have fallen onto their quills over, as software companies rewrote what is considered fair use out from under the public when the public at large really
didn't understand the issues at stake.

Consider that the idea of only one computer in a household being "licensed" to use a copy of software, that is if applied to any other media venue, would be viewed as patently ridiculous (eg. you buy a book but no one else in your house can read it except you, unless they pay for the book too).

And just because something is "legal" does not mean that it's ethical. Take the extension of the copy protection for the works under Disney's control. The US Congress extended that protection for an additional twenty years despite the long ago demise of Walt Disney, the creator of those works. It's as much to do with control and monopolization, as it is to foster creativity (the original intent of copyright law).

Ralph

Well I think that there should be a way that makes it so you NEED to have the disc in the drive, you can install one more then one computer, you CANNOT hack it onto the internet, and can make ONE copy.

You can only make one copy of it, and that one copy cannot be used to copy anything else. And it must work only on some kind of thing where its already been installed.

But the problem is one person gets the game, makes a copy, installs the orginal on a friend's computer, and the friend uses the copy.

Its a tricky matter, copy protection.

But, unfourtently, I think it is needed.

And to be frank, I hope Larian will not have StarForce as their next one. I am saddened by on Gone Gold forums and etc, so many people are going to amazon.com and ebgames.com and posting DONT BUY THIS GAME! And rating it horribly!

Many people do not like StarForce, and because of this, many are saying horrible things about the game and returning it.

This is not a very nice thing to do. Most of them actually say the game looks really fun if they could play it without StarForce.

On Amazon.com and etc all reviews are actually positivie and say good things about the game. Usually int he 3-5 star Range and recommending people to get it if they like RPG's.

I really hope that Larian takes the StarForce off or at least proves to the people who don't believe; that StarForce doesn't ruin their computers and its not a trojan.

They could also make it so in the EULA it says about this.

I will buy the next Larian game, and look forward to it eagerly.
I have had 2 bugs in the game.
StarForce doesn't ruin the game for me.

But I don't want StarForce on the next game, if merely so that more people will buy the game.

Good luck Larian.


my two sense worth.

@Kiya

Well, I ain't cute and cuddly, but call your dog what you will. I'm aggressive, goal orientated, and ruthless!

If you look at most of the posts aimed at me; people are telling me that my attitude is wrong, goading me into proving stuff. So if I do it back, what's the big fuss? I took it like a man, so I expect everyone else to do the same <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />

And ok, we might have covered this ground before, but take a look at some of the threads (in excess 60 pages!) on the forum. They kicked the [nocando] out their topics and are still going, or have evolved into something <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/offtopic.gif" alt="" />

At least this is a contoversial thread, which IMO can stand the odd reiteration.

@xAcesx - maybe you can enlighten me. I just read an article that the British Parliament plans a law about copyright - and that it will be very close to the American DMCA. Can you tell me, if it is already valid, please? Seems to be stricter than the EU law <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Kiya

http://www.out-law.com/php/page.php?page_id=copyrightlawchange1067603633&area=news

forget my question - it is valid <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ROFL.gif" alt="" />

but what I still not have found is this => which law is "stronger" => EULA or the copyright law? So, if EULA is inconsistent - is this cp law then the correct one or not? don't know how to phrase it.



this deals with tools allowing to crack protection, hm?

[color:"yellow"]@edit[/color] => I was not sure, if the EU law had the same validation for your country - or if you have extra regulations <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" /> - I tried to read the official Parliament text - but my English is too poor for this.


[color:"yellow"]Last edit[/color] =>
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/End_User_License_Agreement

don't worry, this text is in German - but I can try to translate the part, I find very, very interesting:


Though these contracts (the EULA) seem to be very "official", they have in Europe mostly no validation. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/exclamation.gif" alt="" /> The agreement to use this software is already done via buying - and at this stage, the consumer can't look into it (EULA). Law regulations, such as the COPYRIGHT are valid EVEN if not mentioned in the EULA - paragraphs extending this are not valid.


Hmmmmmmmm, so copyright is more important - meaning this => the EUCD copyright laws... Right? Or... to be exact => the copyright laws of the country one lives in.
don't know about the US though - I clicked in Wikipedia to have this article in English and the last paragraph (the one I translated) was gone and this came:

"...You can only make one copy of it, and that one copy cannot be used to copy anything else. And it must work only on some kind of thing where its already been installed. But the problem is one person gets the game, makes a copy, installs the orginal on a friend's computer, and the friend uses the copy. Its a tricky matter, copy protection..."

No it's not. Frankly I'm surprised that disc mfgs have not already thought of it. The only reason that people freely give stuff away on the internet is because there is no percieved "at stake" issues for them. The way around this is to make it personal, that is, when you buy a licensed piece of software, that the software incorporates vital data about the buyer, like DOB, address, credit card number all on the disc. You can make as many copies as you want. But I'll bet you be loath to give it away. The technology is already there.

Further, media would not have to be in inventory until the point of sale, when a disc is finalized with the buyer's data. The only thing shops will have to have on hand are blank discs and empty jewel cases. When you buy a piece of software your package inserts are printed right at the point of sale, along with your personalized disc. As each disc is sold, portions of the proceeds will automatically be given to the mfg, artist, publisher, and vendor. Private info is only held on the disc. It's not the major pirating organizations that the copyright holders fear, it's the mainstream casual copying. A business model such as I've outlined would stop the casual pirate cold.

Ralph

Has any video game company ever thought about a Dongol? ( spelling? ) Its a little divice that comes with in the box.

You can install the game on as many computers as you want. You can make as many copy's of the disc as you want. All you have to do is put the dongol into the USB port while the program is running for it to work.

Its very good against piracy, and people can make as many copies of the disc as they want. They can put it on many computers. They can upload it to the web if they want.

The only problem is if you loose the dongol, your screwed. Pardon my Klatchian.

I don't know how expensive they are, but they are suppoused to be great for stopping piracy but letting people do alot of things that people have complained about in this thread.


So, has any company, Larian or otherwise, thoughts of using one of these?

What do people think of these?

They are expensive and worthless.

Expensive for a ~50€ game. (5€or 10€ for one)

Worthless because, as in about every single sorry attemp to stop piracy, the workaround is consistent in a few modified jumps here and there (and so on)
They are not more efficient than a CD-required protection and as easy to destroy.

As ever, annoying the custommer (broken key hardware, lost key, lost CD, ...) is what you get most.
Pirates and worms do not care.

An online protection is far more efficient (still, there are workaround possible as long as the savegames are on the player's side)

@Kiya

The current law states:

You cannot copy cd if you have to curcumvent the protection. The new law you refer to, is that it is illegal to copy a CD by curcumventing any protections.

This means if you back up your game (with a disc protection on it) you are breaking the law!

HOWEVER!!!

The new law only outlawed the copying of music and DVD movies. The section of this new law, stated games users have the right to backup their games. As the law clearly states gamers have this right, it is also ILLEGAL to copy protect games, as this violates the law granted by the right to backup copy.

So if a game has a protection on it, you can't legally copy it, and thus the law has been breached. Naturally, you will copy it, and the law is breached again!

Publishers CANNOT under any circumstances take away a right that you have been granted explicity by law, this is illegal. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/kissyou.gif" alt="" />

Sorry, I disagree - I read the EUCD. It refers to PC programs as well and this includes games. This law is valid in UK since December 2003 IIRC - and since Sept. 2003 in Germany. And I did not only read the paragraphs, I read comments, too - from lawyers specialised on PC law. This only in German though, as my English is not good enough for law terms. So, using tools to "crack" cp protection - regardless of the media! - is illegal. Your country had to give in... you're in the EU. There are a lot of countries not very happy about this.


Sorry, I disagree - your opinion here is interpretation. The law is not clear about this - a case for the court. Maybe a bit like the large incident about the American judge Kaplan and the DMCA in 2002. This was about films - the film industry won. It will be only a matter of time until one of the large publisher companies will go to court. We'll see.

And I have more bad news for you - about private copies: the EU made another deadline for this. And I only know this from Germany: our ministery is preparing a new law (EU-conform) making it more difficult to create private copies. This will involve paper and digital media. There is a petition going on right now in Germany - as scientists fear for the freedom of research, publishing etc.

Don't shoot the messenger, please. It's not about right/wrong, I don't want to prove anything to you - but I advise reading legislative info - even if the British Parliament may not plan this private copy law at the moment (not only Germany was very hesistant to validate the EUCD) - as your country is in the EU => it will come. If I can find the English equivalent to the novelty, I will post it. I'm concerned, because I do not know, how the impact on libraries will be.

How do you work around them then? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

They are alot better then copy protection.

And I for one as a gamer would easily pay 5 to 10 more dollers to buy a game if I knew it would be better against piracy. Once the company has no piracy, they don't loose money. Once they don't loose money they don't have to raise the price of the software. So then the price lowers 5 to 10 dollers.


This thread is one of the reasons I hardly go on the forum anymore. Somebody posts something, and immediatly the ' ur gay ' reply. Though more sophisticated. Still, we need to stop arguing guys. That includes me to.

Kiya

The law here was created to bring us line with the EU (and a spin-off of the American law).

If I take away someone's legal right for anything, I can be subjected to prosicution.

For example: I buy a game, and read the EULA. I decide I don't agree with the EULA (let's say I want to make it available for download), and cancel the installation. I go back to the shop and tell them that I read and understood the EULA, and disagree with it. The shop owner says "You can't have your money back" and I say "Ok then, I must therefore, still own the game <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />"

At this point who owns the game?

It ain't the shop, is it? I won't send it back to the publisher, because I'm unwilling to lose money on the purchase, and I don't need to install it (agree with the EULA) to upload it.

Is it mine to pirate, download, upload now? Hmmm <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/think.gif" alt="" />

If you look carefully, I have had my rights taken away, which broke the law. The same law I've been talking about. I cannot be expected (by law) to pay for a product that I don't have. If I send the game back to the Pub' I would lose £10 postage. At this point, someone would become LEGALLY liable to compensate me for the lost £10...

There's also another side to this, but that's a story for another time. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Lews

I can see your at great pains to think of a way around all of the CP chaos. It's a difficult task, and the only answer I can think of is: EVE Online... I like reading your ideas though, keep it up <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/up.gif" alt="" />

~The shop owner says "You can't have your money back" and I say "Ok then, I must therefore, still own the game "

At this point who owns the game? ~

I don't see how this would be different from buying a car while not holding a driver's license. So you bought the thing without reflecting on the legality of your intended use of it, though luck <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> This doesn't need an EULA that holds up in court, basic ownership rights are already covered by 'default' copyright law (although contrary to the car, the copyright owner could use the EULA to make certain normally-illegal uses legal, a la the GPL, because it's his decision to make).


PS I don't speak for Larian.

And this raises the questions: WAS this right taken away? IS it a right in the first place? Or is it only a permission? This is what I'm trying to find out. The EUCD was validated in some EU countries to strengthen protection of intellectual property. So, if a Pub/Dev uses cp protection, does it collide with the EUCD? Or not? (Ok, you say, it collides - but I'm not sure about this. I need legislative info => court judgement e.g.)

And I'm not sure if Wikipedia is a reliable source with the quotation I posted. So far I have already found protests of consumer associations - but these protests and critics are not the law, you see? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ouch.gif" alt="" />
Gee, I've even read a 2nd quote from our Federal Ministery of Justice - but this quote was from 2002 - before the cp law became valid. Guess what? This quote is no longer as 1st hand quote on the site of this Ministery <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/think.gif" alt="" />

What I still have to find out is this: is the EULA inferior to the cp law? Does it collide with the new/old cp law. Is it legitimate - what do courts say to EULA etc.

As soon as I can lay my grubby hands on the new EUCD commentary in book form, I might be more knowledgeable - ordered it and am waiting. I hope to find answers there. But even if - I would still not know if these answers are purely on national basis (not touching the UK law) or - if this is EU => international binding force within the whole EU.

I'll try to find an answer in the NJW (a German law magazine, made by the Lawyer association. in combo with the Federal Bar Council) Oh, using an abbreviation for "association" is nocando
Only assuming now => the Wikipedia is correct and EULA has no binding force because cp is the law... what then? Did the EULA permit something the law does not cover in the first place? Is it simply a mere piece of "paper" you can use to wipe the ground? And this... is a permission a right or not? If it is a right => under which circumstances? Are they defined and conform with the cp law? Etc. etc.
Assuming => the EULA has a binding force (law term) - does it collide now with the new EUCD? Does it have to be modified?
Kiya <headache and groping in the fog>

Junge Union, Initiative

Link is in German => the young Union in Hessen, part of the CDU (conservative political party in Germany) are starting a campaign to ensure the right for creating a private copy. They say this: as it is prohibited to crack cp protection in order to make a copy (EUCD), consumer rights are decreased.

This is criticised by another organisation who is fighting for user rights as well. They say this: you can't allow a private copy within a family and then forbid it at the same time for friends. Why I'm posting this? Well, if the 2nd part to change CP law(private copies) will become valid, your might not even be able to wipe the ground with EULA.

AFAIK there has been a court sentence here that says that a software must be taken back, if the user does not agree with the EULA, if the EULA was not readable before the software was bought (i.e. printed on the box or pinned at the wall in the store.


Anyway, what I initially wanted to post here is the following:
I still play lots of old Dos games. More Dos than windows games, actually, which is why I still have Win98 installed. Recently I had the problem, that upon exiting Dos games (not all, but most of them), the Computer would freeze up completely, forcing me to hit the reset key.
Upon reading on how Starforce affected several people's systems on GoneGold, I realized that the problem had occured around the time I installed BD. So I used this cleaner utility Lynn has uploaded, and - Lo and Behold - the problem is gone completely.
That means that Starforce effectively blocks me from playing 80% of the games I want to play. Great Job! I payed 50 bucks for blocking all my favourite games!
When O when will companies care about the people who buy their products, instead of those who don't buy them?

What's the buzz... Have you ever tried Alcohol 120%? It emulates StarForce 1/2/3. Yet I am not sure it's capable of emulating StarForce 3.3...

The web-site is Alcohol-Soft

If you want to deal with the problem, start with the search engine. Try to find any information about it. What endless flaming on the forum? Well, that sounds a bit rude. I really understand people who don't have an intention to look through dozens of pages. That's their choice.

Why are you so obsessed with closing this thread?

The are loads of threads bigger than this on the forum, go and close them first then come back in here.

I never said I wanted to close it. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />

I really don't know what the correct answer is, that's why i'm asking.

You can take a car back for a full refund. ("Yes" car credit, UK owners will know this) Ok, to complicate the matter, let's say a bought the game for a friend, and he doesn't agree with the EULA, and gives me the game back...

Then you can return it to the store. Or keep it.

Razor, Alcohol is illegal now <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" /> - the discussion (and I consider it very peaceful atm) is dealing with the problem of legal copies - as some programs circumventing tech. protection measures are not allowed anymore.

So far - we're having 2 dogs in the ring, tugging at a bone from the opposite sides <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" /> - the Terrier and a female Bloodhound <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/evilgrin1.gif" alt="" /> (no offence meant)

Acexs is on the consumer right side, considering tech. copyright protection measures illegal and wants them removed (correct? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" /> )
and I'm tugging on the other side. And if this thread goes on, I'll threaten to not only translate part of the German cp law - but even quote citations out of the "EU Directive for Harmonisation of certain aspects and related rights in the information society." (Directive 2001/29/EC)

This directive had a deadline for 2002 and was supposed to be ratified for all EU member countries => and... it not only deals with music and films, but with computer programs, too. This directive was set up to acknowledge and protect intellectual property. As laws still have the territorial principe, this directive still has to be ratified in each country - but it will come. Germany has ratified already (too late as always) - and has included PC programs.

Another aspect between him and me is the EULA and if it is valid or not. I don't consider our bantering a fuzz, just a difference in opinions.

Errhm, does anyone wish to read the Directive??? I have a link for the 1st hand info. Oh, yeah, and what about TRIPS? (Nope, not a disease <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" /> - Trade aspects about the right of intellectual property)... Hm, what else can I offer? WIPO! also called WCT. (World intellectual property organization - a diplomatic conference on certain copyright and neigbouring rights questions)
Kiya <rubbing her hands in glee <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/alien.gif" alt="" /> )

Sorry, kiya, I can't understand, why Alcohol is illegal, because the program itself is written for the purpose of legal copying. And it's all up to the end user what to do. Anyway, it's just stupid - what if you CD just breaks up in the drive? I've exprienced such cases even with licensed CD.
Are those laws about copyright to stop lawful (or even lawful good) customers? I always thought that they are made to protect us but not to harden our life. If we try to find roots of the problem, we all 'll come up to the creation of such organistation as goverment.
I get a complete "matrix" feeling (is this word allowed on a RPG forum?) when I start thinking - in the beginning, about 7 thousand years ago first states were formed. And they were created for the only purpose of survival. They were to help their citizens, to protect, support, help them. And what do we have now? Goverment turned out to be a supervisor, and it's citizens are imprisoned inside the machine. All in all it's just another brick in the wall...
Who can be sure that we are not inside some kind of matrix if we can't even determine what is reality, or do we even exist? All what is left is to believe.. Well, it sounds quite pessimitic, but... enought of that, let's get down to business!

Kiya. I'm scared. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/puppyeyes.gif" alt="" /> She's a librarian, she has ALOT of data on hand. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/puppyeyes.gif" alt="" />

If your disc breaks in the drive. Return it to the store. Why won't they accept it if it wasn't your fault.

The reason Alcohol is banned, is beause (in America) it curcumvents copy protections, which is illegal.

Alcohol is not only illegal in the US, but in Germany as well now. The laws (if you're American: DMCA - if a EU member, depends on your country) are changing now, because governments want to protect intellectual property. They were made to stop casual piracy - thus driving even legal customers into criminality.

Alcohol is not the only program - CloneCD is now, too. So companies, who have supplied customers with these programs had to take them off or modify them. Sites giving links to these programs allowing to circumvent tech measures (such as copy protection) commit a criminal offence and can be held responsible. Interesting is this: you are allowed to have the programs - but not allowed to use them. And this is inconsistent IMO.

So, now you may understand the "fuzz" in this thread. If you wish, I can post a link from a German site naming the illegal programs (in their original form). File sharing sites are facing a hard time now - if they offer this, too. Donkey, Kazaa, Morpheus etc. they will meet the court in future times (my belief). I do not know, if the programs I will name - are illegal in all countries, or if the USA has more now, according to their DMCA.

I can only give you my opinion as a librarian now (job disease, most of us respect intellectual property highly) => I have always been angered by the way intellectual property was neglected when it came to the analog/digital world. So, I'm glad, governments are acknowledging and wanting to protect at last!

But I DO understand this: Customer rights are decreased - and the "legal" backup is in a sort of grey zone (correct, Acesx?) I DO understand the frustration and insecurity lawful gamers have. The harmonisation directive of the EU wishes all EU members to egalise their CP laws - and the US have already reacted with the DMCA long before the EU. In any case => my belief is, the courts will be asked in the next time a lot to clarify. Yes, even the German courts, as our changed law still leaves a lot of questions open. Therefore I'm waiting for commentaries I ordered.
Kiya

"I have no thought at all about my own reward
I really didn't come here of my own accord"

Glad I live in Russia, where you can easily buy any CD for just 4,28 dollars.. yet, I'll never do that )) Well, maybe that's not completely true - I simply had to buy illigal copy of Photoshop, because it's too expensive

Can you give me the source, please, Flash? I'm still trying to track down if EULA is valid or not, as it is a shrinkwrap licence. I tried Beck (Neue juristische Wochenschrift => NJW) - as German court sentences are listed there. Preferably new judgements - no success <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/puppyeyes.gif" alt="" />
Sorry to hear about your probs with Starforce - it works fine on my XP Home. But I didn't try the cleaner, cause I have more Starforce games on my PC and want to play them.
Kiya

NJW => is relevant for Germans only, just a link and database about German court sentences, laws, short commentaries.

Oh, Razor - Russia. Ok, I'm lost there. I gather your country has a large illegal market, hm? Russia is not part of the US or EU member laws - but I hope, your government will deal with the prof. pirates in your countries. Same goes for the Asian countries with their large illegal markets.
I'm not blaming private customers there - just hoping, intellectual property will be protected in the near future.
Kiya

Yeah, our country has HUGE illigal market, although I don't like it..generally

Still, I am glad goverment makes first steps to protect intellectual property. Let's hope they won't leave those laws as they are now.

Probably forbidden in Germany:
Daemon-Tools", "RAW CD Copy", "Exact Audio Copy", "CDex quot;,"Swiss Scout EasyScan", "DVDx", "AnyDVD", "DVD Decrypter2, "DVD Region-Free", "Virtual-CD", "Alcoholer", "CCD4-Profiler".

In the original program version forbidden:
Alcohol120%, GameJack, MovieJack, cloneCD, Movieclone, DiscJuggler, CDRWin, BlindRead/Write, CDMasterClone, DVDCopySuite, DVDRipperKit, DaViDeo, DVDShrink, SmartRipper, ClonyXXL, DVDDecrypter.

Source => http://www.hardwarejournal.de/urhebergesetz.htm

link is in German - but you can see the proggies listed there. Any Germans wanting to read the link => is quite interesting <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />

I wonder about Nero though <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/think.gif" alt="" /> - why is it not on the list?

Nero ain't overriding copy-protection - it just burns.

Therefore it's rather a "burner" than anything else - and you still need to make your backups on CD-RW's somwehow. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />

I think I read it in a newspaper. I'm no law expert, so I have no Idea where to actually dig up that sentence. It was quite some time ago, 4-5 years probably. Wikipedia seems to agree with me, but that is of course no proof.

I read it in a kind of Lexikon where I currently make my Internship. I don't remember the source.

Kiya, is it true that you are a libririan? I've never seen such women, who know that much about problems of intellectual property and copyrights. Consider that a compliment <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/delight.gif" alt="" />

And what about programs which are not included in the list? What if I write one myself? When do I break the law, when I install the program or when I emulate the CD? Well, probably I have too many questions... Could you give me an English link so that I could study the problem myself, without flaming on the forum?

As for Nero.. It's a wonderful MP3Pro grabber as well - on the output we have really nice sound quality (Thanks to Fraunhoffer. Looks like he is from Germany too )) and really small size. 5 min track is approx. 2,6 mb. The bitrate is to be doubled (60 kbps Pro = 128 kpbs of Lame encoder). Yes, what about such programs as CD Rippers?

As far as I know, ripping an audio CD as MP3 is perfectly legal, if you own the original CD. But if the CD is protected and you need to break this protection to encode your CD, even if you legally own it, you break the law (in some countries).

So, problems arise when you either violate the copyright, or intentionally break some protection. You don't have options to break such protections in Nero.

So all the Ipod's and MP3 players will become illegal too. You're right about the grey zone Kiya, and your finally getting to the point where I'm at:

The governments rushed in and made laws regarding copying without actually thinking things through. They've made a mess of everything, and it will cause no end of trouble for the courts.

Soon all copying programs may be banned, which will leave servers without a means of backing up. cool <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/stupid.gif" alt="" />

If so, then those MP3 players will just go undeground, or they 'll find a wayout. Well, if you say that ALL copying programs will be banned, then the first thing to be banned is Windows, 'cause the copying algorithm is one of it's basic concepts. And not only Windows alone..

now that would be logical for those politicians.
eliminate the system operation software,
and you can't do anything with the copy software also <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

next step, make computers also illegal. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/badsmile2.gif" alt="" />

if they make a copy protection who can easaly be "broken" by just 2 clicks. it ain't a copyprotection then!

remember the copyprotection of the first diablo game?
it used a 80min cd (700Mb), it was very hard to copy because back then they only had 650Mb cd's. or the 700Mb ones were to expensive at that time.

so if i can copy that diablo game with a legal burner software. right now, with a 700Mb blank cd.
Am i doing some thing illlegal?
because i bypassed that copy protection. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/think.gif" alt="" />

(on a side note, you have the orginal game ofcours)

@bean

You're not breaking the law by copying Diablo, yet. If the game had technology on it, to protect it from copying, then you would break the law.

Strickly speaking, you can copy any game you own, providing you duplicate the copy protection tech' as well. This must still be functional on the backup version too. However, to place such technology on a disc is a breach of your rights...

According to section 50(A) of the 1988 Copyright, Designs & Patents Act, legal purchasers of games are explicitly permitted to make backup copies of their games. This rule is applied specificly to games, and not DVD movies or music CD's. The new section of the law (296Z - section 296) states that it is now illegal to curcumvent copy proection technology of any kind.

Here's the problem:

If a publisher uses CP on their games, they are breaking the law also. It is illegal for anyone to deprive a customer of a right explicitly granted by the law. If you exercise your right to a backup, you are also breaking the law. There is no way for these new laws to co-exist, because a different section of the law is being broken by the publshers, forcing you to break section 296Z of the law. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

All this info is valid in the UK

Speaking about laws.
i found an interesting link on cdfreaks.com: Proposed law that would loosen tough copy controls

Correct - I can state inconsistency for the new German laws - so far I know that some copy programs are either removed from Germany or modified to allow further sales in Germany, the whole market is in terrible movement now. I translated parts of the German law dealing with computer programs - and am lost! IMO, at least 2 paragraphs are illogical - but I am no lawyer, so I will wait for the law commentaries I ordered via Interlibrary Lending Services. Why? Well, our library has books helping PC people to use these copy programs - and have to ensure, we are not violating the law there. As some have CD-ROM included. So, one of my colleagues and I are determined to track down now.

So far I only found this => it is illegal for a proprietor (the creator of a PC program) to forbid backup via contract. Ok, no proprietor has done this IMO - but! it is an infringement to use programs to remove or circumvent tech protection measures as well. And now? (§69f, nr 2 against §69d, number 1,2.) § 69a-g are regulations ONLY for computer programs in the German cp law. So, Acesx, the lawyers and courts will have a lot of time to amuse themselves in the near future.

@Razor - about CD Ripper programs => sorry, no knowledge. And please, don't forget this: Russia is not a member of the EU, so your regulations might be different. I only quoted the German law. I have no knowledge if WIPO, WCT and the other international agreement I quoted in my last post have been signed by your country. I have no knowledge, which agreements your country has dealing with EU member countries.
I know nothing about Russian librarians - but normally we're all a terrible nitpicky bunch, tracking down at all costs and annoying others <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" /> And if anyone dares to touch librarian freedom of giving access to science and knowledge => we turn from grey mice into roaring lions (as I just read the other day, when the American Librarian Association pounced upon a poor American congress woman <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/badsmile2.gif" alt="" /> )

The only stuff I found out so far => the internet is full of differing interpretations, opinions and partly wrong quotes.

Sorry, gals and guys - as I'm not much online until September, I'm leaving this highly interesting discussion. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wave.gif" alt="" />
Kiya

Yeah, the last part (about EULA not being valid) was already translated by me in a former post. I agree, it's no proof, therefore I'm still hunting.
Kiya

I'd call this an understatement. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/delight.gif" alt="" />

I have read it as well, the thing with the EULA (substitute the last A with an E and you have the German word for owl <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/delight.gif" alt="" /> ) in a kind of lexikon that's where I'm currently making my Internship now, so I'll look what's standing there as source in the coming week.

There's another potential problem.

Modding communities will have to go as well, as you cannot create levels and so on without breaching the new laws. This should eliminate all the editors in games being released, as you can't use the game engine to reproduce, levels, code or in-game characters, lol. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Except where companies explicitely allow them to build MODs.

In the case of Command & Conquer Generals I read that EA fails to produce a new patch for fixing exploits and weaknesses - instead, I read, they were "officially supporting" a group of MOD-Makers who were buildinmg a MOD that does just this.
Fine for EA : More money saved. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/badsmile2.gif" alt="" />

And, by the way, NWN is a case of its own. It's designed to do nothing else than develop MODs. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Can't say I am glad.. Just a bit lonely this evening.

Don't forget, the EULA is invalid under current law. The new law has banned this, regardless of what the developers says. The developer says "yes do it" and the law says "no you can't" <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />...

However, if the game had no disc protection, you could legally do this, as these new laws would not be broken. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/silly.gif" alt="" />

Here is A FACT that You all SHOULD be Aware of: There has NEVER been a Game
that has NOT been CRACKED Nor Pirated. NEVER Will Be! Copy Protections are and never will be a DETERRENT to this Group.
BD Has been Cracked for Well over a Week. You just Have to KNOW WHERE to get it.
Copy protections are TOTALLY USELESS. It serves Only ONE Purpose--it Prevents the LEGITIMATE Owner of the Game from Making a Backup Copy---And THAT IS ALL IT DOES! PERIOD!!!

Yay, here we go again, very interesting I might say...

Close, but no @Sigarr <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

@Bean - <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ROFL.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/up.gif" alt="" />

Hmmm...yes, strong argument there Sigarr, well thought out and opens up a whole new line of thought for me that I was completely unaware of till you elegantly phrased it. And the cap letters, wow that really brings it home. Couldn't see what was the point behind the whole discussion until the captials...wise sage! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/think.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Errhm, bad news, got the commentary about the new law in Germany. It's about the back-up copy



Translation of the bold text:
If the user gets 2 copies from the start or one physical main data carrier (CD-ROM) there is NO necessity to make another backup copy.

The rest is about securing data - that you are allowed to make a backup copy and copy protection is not allowed to interfere with this, such as dongle, hardlock, digital fingerprint

[color:"yellow"]here is a teeny prob now => computer games are films - yep, you read it correctly, cause a PC game is animated. Consoles have a different protection, but I'll stick to PC games now, ok? The game itself is a film in German law sense, the software in it is a computer program[/color]

So, finding out now, if a backup copy of a PC game is like a backup copy for a film (allowed???? Don't think so) - or if it fits into the software backup - where I see a prob with the CD-ROM as being sufficient - will take some time. This commentary has 2144 pages and I have a dissertation as well now to browse.

Morituri te salutant, oh ludentis
Kiya