I have not been following this forum for quite a while, seeing that there isn't much to discuss about.

However, I open this topic to voice my small complaint. Because it seems clear now, that Divinity 2 is following the pattern of all the videogames which are produced with only the German market in mind. Which means that the international (or even just the english) version is delayed and delayed, never getting a clear release date, and when it finally does, the game gets ignored by most media and scores poor reviews because it turns out to be of quite mediocre quality.

I had big hopes for this game, but I now realize I was wrong. I shall have to turn to DA: O for a good rpg experience.

Which games would that be? If you're referring to Drakensang - that's based on a German role-playing system that is mainly popular in Germany, and the game was produced in Germany, so it's quite understandable that it was produced with the German market in mind. Apart from German games, is one of the very few games the German version of which is published before the English version. Often enough, it's the other way round.

According to a press release from May, the English voice recordings were finished. Larian never said why the English version is delayed so much, but to me it seems highly probable that it could have been published together with the German one - if the English/American publisher had agreed (or if there had been an English/American publisher at that time).

I fully understand that you don't like the delay and the lack of information, but I can't see the "pattern" you're talking about.

Real shame you would pass on a great game because it's not being released according to your time line!

I saw the game at PAX and saw an amazing game that I will be standing in line to buy on the day of release here in the good old USA!

If a game is good I buy it, if it's not what I like I do not buy it, but as a hardcore gamer since 1985, I would never pass on a game because it was not released when I wanted.

If Europeans would have that attitude, we'd never buy any games at all

Ok Then Goodbye
Its not Larians fault its coming in December.
Its up to the Publisher.
All this extra time equals a better game!

Huh ? Normally it goes vice versa !

I really don't understand your point of view, because 99 % of ALL games are made for the English-language market ! It's the Europeans who normally suffer delays !

Be greatful that the international market will receive a far less bugfree game than the Germans do ! You haven't seen the time when here in the German technical forums-part hell broke loose ! People were not complaining, not ranting, they were behaving like small children ! They were flooding the forum with threads saying "when does patch 1.02 come !"

I really don't understand you, and I quite feel insulted by your "rant". It's the europeans who usually suffer delays !

The people of the English-language market live like in Heaven ! Games are polished, relased nearly big-free, and sometimes even enhanced ! They get many more patches than localized versions do ! Do you know about the patch- / version niumber mess of Jagged Alliance ? I have recently bought the game called "The Orb", where the German version of the game only got a single patch - and the English-language version many more !

THAT's kind of insulting !

Thank you for expressing that you expect Europeans to deliver top games meanwhile companies are free to delay and delay games for the European markets and don't even feel deliver games in great qualities !

Neverend and Gods - Lands Of Infinitiy for example were greatly expanded - of course for the English market only ! The Expansions of Majesty never reached Germany ! We still have to play with the standard version because you don't even get the expansions via ebay Germany or Amazon Germany !

Seems I must import them - but on the reverse, how many people are willing to import non-English versions of games because they aren't getting them !

The mess is that everyone is clearly optimizing for the international market. Imho, just because the international market (and that means: The English-language market) is the only market delivering the needed amount of revenues to balance out the nowadays huge developing costs ! A failure in the English-speaking market might very well also mean it's a failure for the company itself !

That's why companies are - that's what i believe - optimizing fot the English-language international market - optimizing for local markets consumes just too much money against too little revenues !

pssst, don't tell ze Zermans but the german release is actually one huge closed beta (get a key buy bying it). Not that D2 hasn't been tested properly before that release... Anyway it just means Larian can rid the International release of bugs, and tweak some features the german owners of the game pointed out improvement.

All in all, everything you said is imo wrong, reviewers give out bad scores because a game has been released later in one part of the world than another. Games don't get worse by time either, on the contrary like I said 'patches'. Mediocre games get mediocre scores as good games get good ones, looking at the german reviews, it's a good game and will only be better once released in the US.

The imho bad thing is that the testing wasn't done more thoroughly.

Who will be happy ? The international market, because they receive a much better games than we did ...

LOL @ Op. You obviously haven't followed DA:O that closely then, not to be aggravated with them as well. They originally announced release as spring of this year(after announcing console versions of a previously PC only title), so in the grand scheme of things, their delay is longer than Div II.

lol speak 4 urself haha
jk but iw ould

I have to admit that it's very rare for other countries to get priority on any game over the English speaking market, and particularly the US & Britain. As a Brit myself, I obviously don't mind getting most games before the non-English speaking nations and I certainly don't begrudge anyone else their chance.

If a company's main audience is in Germany (And you only have to look at the massive German community here at Larian to see that it is!) then it only makes sense to release in Germany first, surely?

I have NO problems with this decision, and I'm perfectly happy to wait on the English version.

I honestly cant understand why people go into the forums to complain that a tittle hasn't come out yet because they WANT to enjoy it sooner, like they "own" the game to the form of having the right to complain or even "demand" that the publisher does what they want.

Realy, its like twilight zone for me. I come to this forums to learn more of the game, give some advices, mingle a little with people in good sport to exchange some info about tastes and opinions, but honestly, complaining and RANTING about a video game being delaying and they want to play it NOW seems like a 12 year old complaining to mommy they NEED their icecream now and if they dont have it then the icecream company its the boogey man that disapointed them and they'll never buy icecreams from them again.


Oh well. Maybe there's something that realy gone over me and i cant understand, or perhaps i'm just old. Oh well.

*pats him* Yes, you're old.

He is bit right about German to rest of the world attitude about German games. Gothic 3 was somewhat successful even without much marketing..

But on other hand, as I see patches, it will be ok to release it bit later.

One thing would be nice and good.. give it some publicy, bit of adds? If I wouldn´t like Divine Divinity, I would probably never noticed that this game exist. And I´m in country NEXT to Germany..

I think its sad that game like this (and those before) don´t get deserved publicy. Cause games from Larian are really good.

Ofc if that works for you (economical point of view), its ok..

PS: If you want and MUST play it and you are willing to sacrifice English dub, theres way to make German version to English (text only) one. But I guess you are bit lazy to search net, otherwise you would know.. (cause I wanted to play game too, but I was bit more determined than you, I guess )

Well, I see some of the answers here are, as usual, blinded by the typical fanaticism that brings a player to defend ANYTHING about a gaming company, even when there are obvious faults.

1) English isn't my language. So I don't belong to the "spoiled" market of native english players who are used to get all the games before the other countries. So don't tell me about how USA and english speaking countries always get the games first: I should know already. When I say I wanted Divinity 2 to be released outside of Germany, I meant an international version.

2) When I said that Divinity 2 is showing all the symptoms of a game released mainly for the german market, I didn't mean only Drakensang. I also meant Gothic, I also meant Loki.... I meant all the games of somewhat mediocre quality who become very popular in Germany but never gain big success overseas. No magazine outisde of Germany is speaking much about Divinity 2, which in my opinion is already a big sign that the game is as mediocre as the titles I have mentioned above. Seeing that the game is being delayed, and that no one really cares to speak about it apart german people, is making it all too obvious that Divinity 2 isn't as good a game as I hoped.

3) Time ago, I was assured by some staff member that Divinity 2 would get released before DA: O. It seems it wasn't true at all. I personally believe that the only chance that Divinity 2 had to sell a decent amount of copies, was to hit international release before the much bigger titles that will start being put on sale starting from this very month. But now, I predict Divinity 2 will sell very little copies.

What you are saying makes no sence at all? You are jumping to conclusion of a game you newer tried...

I wouldn't say that Drakensang, Gothic and Loki have much in common, except that they were developed in Germany, and I don't even think Loki was very successful in Germany. German games will perhaps not as easily become an international success as US games, but that's probably also true for French or Italian games ... and it's the same with movies or music (even English-language music from non-English-speaking countries).

Sure, was published first (and successfully) in Germany, but unless you're implying Germans generally have a bad taste with respect to games, I don't see why this should mean it's just a mediocre game.

The lack of a big international media coverage is not very surprising for a game from a small or medium company that will only be published in two or three months (English version). Even if were a bad or mediocre game, most magazines wouldn't simply ignore it, but give it bad or mediocre (p)reviews. Have you found any? If not, it's maybe just too early.

On the other hand, I agree that the information policy for does not seem very clever, whoever might be responsible and even if you consider that it's quite common for games companies not to stick to their target release dates.

Asuming the quality of a game, on the market it is first released, is a downright stupendous thing to do. Games get released to select markets first all the time, first USA, or Japan, Europe... Same goes for moviesn Tv-Series, Music albums, books etc... Saying all those pieces of entertainment are mediocre is an outright lie or misinformed claim. There are many reasons this happens,

Distribution: as Larian works with different distributers arround the world, different Publishers... all these elements that get a game into the shelves near you don't just sit and wait on a game till they are bored of it to release it, they all have other products with their own shedules to be considered.

Localization: Just translating text is only a part of localizing games, and that alone is big load of work if you don't want to dissapoint your buyers with crappy translations. Again Larian isn't the only element in this localization thing, games need to get rated, approved by consumer boards etc... this is slightly to totally different in each region, only the really big developers and publishers have the contacts and resources to pull this off to get a game released simultatiously all over the world.

Getting a feel: might sound a bit dirty but it isn't, it is not a lazy trait to use a part of the targetted market to test your product on. Once your confident there aren't any major defects or blunders in it. Bugtesting costs money, people need to get payed, and you'll never get it done as fast as thousands of customers could. When games get released to new markets after it hit another one first. It's nearly always an improved version of it.



If you still trust the word of developers on release dates... as I stated before, this isn't something developers fully control, even they can only estimate. And why is it a concern of yours how much the title sells? Divine Divinty wasn't the bestseller either, but it gave a small studio like Larian the resources to keep existing and even spend years on developing a sequel. Worse, with even the small number of sales it had (comperatively to bigger titles of much bigger studios) it still got many awards, more so than those better selling titles. Quantity != Quality.

Lar might have stated to the press a lot depends on this game, wether it sells good or not. But don't you go thinking they aren't realistic. They're not expecting to outsell say... Fallout 3, or Bioshock, or Diablo III. It's a game marketted towards RPG fans, who like story and depth, the resource put into it, and the expactions of the team behind it are within the limits of the targetted market. If they just wanted to sell a lot of games, more resource would have gone in hyping and advertising than in making a good game.

Wether or not D2 will sell enough, if it's good enough or not. Can't be predicted on a thing than what market it is first released to. I hope the best for D2, but am by no means a fanboy. If it ends up to be a horrid game after all, or mediocre I might not even play it. But I won't sit back while you or anyone else makes rediculous assumptions like you just did.


Rant over.

The funny thing is; this guy is not only confusing game quality with game sales, but also is he confusing Divinity 2 with a mediocre game the likes of Loki. If you decide not to buy a game because you think it won't be a blockbuster... Fine. But then don't run your mouth about the game quality or the marketing strategy, because, quite frankly, you're ignorant of those things, and it has no bearing on your choice of purchase.

You tell ME about not buying a game because it's not a blockbuster???? I'll have you know that I once bought the PS3 game "Lair" at its full price. Yes, even after everyone gave extremely negative reviews of it! :P
Heck, now I'll tell my most hidden secret and reveal that I also bought "The Legend of Spyro: Dawn of the Dragon". A game for kids.

So, no, it's not the popularity, or the reviews. I don't care about wether it's a blockbuster or a game nobody knows.
What I care about, however, is the quality, and I somehow am worried that Divinity 2 may be another case of Loki, Drakensang, Gothic 3 (which I never played however), etc., which were all pretty mediocre games. I make the association because Divinity 2 has these points in common with all those somehow less-than-average products:

1) It was first released for the german market, and it was publicized only for the german market, and the only good reviews it got (so far) come from the german market;

2) no important magazine ever mentions this game;

3) it's not a big budget title (as I said, I'm not implying this necessarily means it doesn't have to be a good game).

So I kind of make this association, see, and worry that Divinity 2 may really disappoint me.... like it was with those other games.

The German publisher was onboard a couple years ago, while a deal with the US publisher only recently got finalized, and apparently the UK / Australian publishers aren't quite there yet.

Print magazines have a 2 or 3 month lead time, so any recent publisher activity isn't going to show up for awhile.

First of all, your opinion remains only your opinion; I felt "games that cater to the German market" like Drakensang, MUCH much better than "games that cater to the American market" like NWN 2 or Oblivion. In fact, I feel Drakensang is the best RPG to come out since The Witcher, which also happened to be a European game. And that one was the best one since Gothic II, which also happened to be a European game. Anyhow, this whole discussion is completely moot, since the fact that it came out in Germany first doesn't mean a damn thing. DEFINITELY not in term of quality. If anything, I'd say if it comes out here before there, it means it's generally of better quality as the Oblivion-esque American RPG scenario these days. But if you judge games on quality rather than off the top of your head, you will find that if you're basing your decision on whether or not to buy a game on issues as ridiculous as this, you will end up with a series of badly chosen games.

Find some different criteria.

Lun-Sei Sleidee , you're not "worrying that the game might disappoint you."

In your anger, you already decided to be disappointed. And regardless how good the game is, with that mentality, it'll suck for you.



I would suggest you to inform yourself a bit better, especially on when reviews happen.

Last that I checked, reviews have the odd habit of not appearing months before a game is released. Also, your claim is false, as there is already some buzz about the game on several english speaking websites.

If you confuse hype with quality, nobody can help you.


I'm not saying Divinity 2 is perfect (I dislike several things myself). But even the international market - which routinely rates german games BETTER than the german press does - has so far looked with a favorable eye on the game. That is saying something.

Pff.. Dinivity 2 is good game. Its not about German "good reviews", there will be plenty of good reviews after international release too..

I don't even know how to reply to that. Saying that Drakensang was better than NWN2... does it mean that good writing and, you know, freedom of action , mean nothing to you in a rpg? NWN2 has really a lot of faults. Yet, it was a million times better than Drakensang. Drakensang's characters are extremely one-dimensional, and you can't interact with them. Your own character in that game has no big and varied level advancement, as compared to all the classes and multiclasses of NWN2. More importantly, you character in that game has no personality whatsoever and you can't decide how he/she will interact with the world.
And you say Drakensang is better than NWN2. It's just... I don't know... it's.... it's like saying the the moon is made of cheese and claiming that I can't prove the countrary....

Gothic 2: meh.

The Witcher: I really disliked it. But, to its defense, I'll say that it's a wellcrafted videogame: I can't say it's a bad game (like I can freely say about Drakensang); I can only say it really didn't suit my tastes.






Who knows, it could well be.... I hope so anyway.






But, why is all that delay happening? Why do I get the feel it's because they don't plan for the game to sell much copies in other countries?

Maybe I'm just speculating. Maybe I'd need the word of people (not reviewers) who actually played the game and can tell with good reason if it's good or not.

If you think NWN2 had great writing, you're obviously not used to decent writing. Is Demon Stone and Fable your idea of a great RPG? It's not because characters overload on mind-numbingly inane chatter and continuous idiotic quarrels, that the depth is good. In an RPG, it's important to use your imagination; I bet you think Icewind Dale was the worst RPG ever cause you had to build all your party's characters from scratch. That only means you lack imagination. Lacking imagination is also the right description for both story and character dialogue in NWN2. It only took me half an hour of Neeshka, Khelgar and Elanee to decide to turn off the sound on NWN2; thus, no longer suffering from continuous headaches. NWN2 was long because it was generic; completely generic. And it had the worst graphic engine ever. Not to mention the AI.


I'll tell you this much I know for certain about Divinity 2:
-Its graphical engine is much better
-Its characters, while not being party members, are much more interesting and far less annoying
-It doesn't pretend to be party-based and then forget to implement some of the most important things about party-based games, like NWN2 does
-Its textures and detail are far, far, far better
-Its story is much better


Of course, these things are not all that difficult to achieve. But still, to someone who actually liked the mess that was NWN2, this game ought to be mindblowing.

Then again, you think The Witcher and Gothic II are 'meh', and 'bad'. Thus, in my personal opinion of course, you really have no taste whatsoever when it comes to RPG's.


The thing about Drakensang is; it doesn't implement all that much like party dialogue and such... But everything Drakensang did, was good. It was stable, the graphics were great, it ran smooth without bugs, the AI was sufficient, the RPG system was implemented as good as possible, and the story ran fluidly.

NWN2 did not one of these things right. It implemented a castle, badly; its AI was horrid, its engine was horrid, its story was long-winded and boring, its RPG-system was implemented for a single character game instead of a party-based game, its textures were childish and its animations were awful.

I'd rather see a game that's less ambitious, but finished and polished well, than an impossible mess that tries to do everything all at once.

Stop assuming too much.
You tell me I'm not supposed to like the two Icewind Dale games (which I loved by the way... been re-playing some Icewind dale 2 just a couple of months ago) because I lack imagination...... and yet you said you don't like Oblivion or Fallout 3, which ironically are ALL about the player's imagination since their plot is merely a trace for the player to let their own story build in their minds.

I think NWN2 had great writing. I never said it had a good plot. There's a big difference. You know what "great writing" means? It means that even if the characters are babbling about some stupid nonsensical thingamajinga, the STYLE of writing is so good it's just a pleasure to listen/read to the phrases. I think NWN2 has an excellent writing, regardless of its plot contents. It's rare nowadays to find rpgs which are written like books and not like movies (i.e. Bioware games' dialogues are written like movies, which is disappointing).

But I do agree about the faulty AI and more importantly about the enormous, buggy game engine.....








I should hope Divinity 2 graphically looks better than NWN2... it came years later! :P
I really hope you are right about the story being so good....





I could tell you the same about you, for liking so much Drakensang...... Besides, you really have to explain WHAT was good about the Witcher, besides the fluid graphics. Maybe it was the cheap sexy women to be collected one after another?





You're right: Drakensang run smoothly and with high detail even on my low-end pc; the gameplay was smooth too (despite a certain lack of skills variety).... but the story sucked. Come on: it just did. I'd rather have a complete technological mess like NWN2, but with some interesting dialogue and a decent amount of freedom of interaction, rather than a technically polished game like Drakensang, but with a supercliche plot that has no freedom of interaction whatsoever and is a predictable snoozefest.

Personally, I'm really looking forward to Divinity 2. It's been a long time since I've actually enjoyed a good aRPG, and it's one of the few games coming out in the near future that I am pretty sure will be worthwhile to actually finish. The others being Torchlight and Dragon Age.

There's some heated conversation here, so I'll go jump on the band wagon.

NWN2 - mess. I agree that the writing was interesting, but the story had no depth. Nothing in the game had depth. I'm not even going to go into character design and the game's style in general. But what really killed it for me was the fact that I had little say in who should be in my active party. And if I wanted to do a specific quest, I had to bring someone along. Ugh, come on. This, along with everything else, made me forget NWN2 ever existed.

NWN2: MotB - Yea, they finally realized that forcing party members onto you is not a good thing. But they added a mechanic that added nothing to the game other than frustration. Yea, I know it was modable. But I guess it just didn't click. However, the expansion was a great step up from the original.

Risen / Gothic / Elder Scrolls - not my thing. Too realistic in many aspects. For me, too much frustration: Can't do this, can't go into there, can't take that or you'll be punished. Makes sense, but, no. Fallout 3 was more forgiving, and I played that and Broken Steal with some fun, but it did get boring after a while. After you find your best armor and weapon - that's it, basically. Mods gave F3 life for a couple of more weeks, but meh. And in Risen, you can't even achieve a character with everything mastered. No thanks, this isn't what I'm looking for in a fantasy RPG.

Witcher - can this be really in comparison to the above? I mean.. the whole progression in terms of skills and equipment is incredibly shallow.

Sacred 2 - it's actually fun. I was lucky enough to never actually encounter any of the 'gamebreaking' bugs that people complained about. Its progression was good, high replay value due to difficulties. However, the item aspect really lacks. Every item you find scales to your level, so you end up basically wearing the same stuff you've been wearing, just finding some upgradeable replacement (of the same unique) at higher levels. Boring.

Drakensang - I actually want to play that. I can live with a non-existant story as long as it has good enough gameplay mechanics to keep me hooked. However, I read somewhere that it's lacking in terms of equipment, especially end game.

No other RPG comes to mind in recent years. With all that said, there hasn't been a really quality (a)RPG (for my tastes) that I would want to finish, let alone replay. A lot of people praise Titan Quest, but I just can't get over the design barrier. It has no design. Just a typical greek mythology setting with typical greek mythological beings. You see them in books, you see them everywhere. There is little fantasy of the designers put into the whole thing. Not to mention the horrible UI.

With all that said, Divinity 2 along with Torchlight and DA:O seem to be what I'm really looking for. Regarding Divnity 2 - Beautiful design (characters, setting, equipment), outstanding music (at least what I've heard from the 2 tracks on the site), excellent UI and the whole dragon thing sounds amazing.

There are, however, things that could ruin it - Since the game ends when you beat it, your only choice is to start over. However, if the story and gameplay is engaging enough (or at least doesn't have too many annoying aspects), I would be willing t replay it. And the lack of respawns. I hope there is enough monsters and XP around to achieve the level of mastery in all skills that I'm interested in.

I'm really looking forward to this game, and even if its replayability will be low (which I'm inclining to think is not), I am pretty sure that I will have a lot of fun with this game.

Your post seeme just intentionally provocatory, SilverD. Do really all recent rpgs suck, for you? Uhu.

Also, I don't know if you realize that your post is basically claiming that you are hoping for Divinity 2 to be a more satisfying game than NWN2 and its expansions, Fallout 3 and The Elder Scrolls, etc. etc.
Then again, if you found Sacred 2 to be more fun, and you don't care for Drakensang's lack of plot.... then maybe your expectations for an rpg are pretty low. Maybe your type of game is more akin to the hack'n'slash type - which would definitely explain your tastes.

Nah, I'm not a type of person who likes to argue. I didn't try to provoke anything. Everyone has different tastes and I respect that.
just sharing my opinion, this thread sparked something in me. This thread was the only reason I registered, really.

No, not all recent rpg's 'suck', per se. It's just that nothing really clicks recently.

However, I replayed NWN1 and all of its expansions at least three times from start to finish. That's not mentioning the times that I started over, or played with mods. Now that is a great RPG. Baldur's Gate II is incredible. Fallout 2 - oh. Three times 100% completion at least. Just to name a few... Not to mention I still play stuff like Angband.

But yes, in recent years, nothing. I do enjoy the hack&slash genre simply because it's relaxing and doesn't frustrate with nuisances.
A good hack&slash game (roguelikes, D2) has replayability and fun. Something you can endlessly progress in and relax your brain after work. But it takes a game like Baldur's Gate II or NWN1 to really impress me. And I've seen nothing of that quality recently.

For Divinity 2, I'm hoping for a rather relaxing, fun and fresh hack&slash experience that I haven't received in a while. And if it features interesting story and music, then it will be a great game. Those are my expectations - nothing more, nothing less.

But are you now saying that NWN1 was better than NWN2.....? The main campaign of NWN1 was pretty bad, despite a couple good moments (mainly in the sidequests).

Anyway, you seem to search for hack'n'slash in Divinity 2; me, I search for the plot or, in lack of it, the atmosphere. And, of course, the concept of turning into a big powerful flying dragon (which IS the main reason I am so interested in this game, after all).

We'll see how the game will turn out to be. Of course, the german players could tell us already....

Yes, NWN1 was definitely better than NWN2 for me. I can't really compare with NWN2:MotB, since I didn't have the will to complete the expansion. Eventually I ran out of space on my laptop and had to uninstall it. Maybe I'll get back to it someday and give it another whirl. Heard there's a third expansion already out.

I liked the main campaign in NWN1. Especially the first chapter. It didn't offer much, but the sidequests were definitely fun. The whole campaign had, though not original, a somewhat interesting plot with quite a few well executed ideas and surprises. Lots of parts were thought out.. Well, I could go on and on, but the fact remains - I did actually like it quite a lot.

Yep, we'll see how it turns out to be. The germans have uploaded many HD gameplay videos, those look interesting. Don't understand a word of dialogue though I do like the design of the game. And the atmosphere is quite pleasant judging from the first two or three videos that I've watched. Regardless, if it keeps me busy for at least a month (not 24/7, I do have a full time job :)), that's definitely worth the money.

The thing that people forget tend to forget concerning the NWN games is that their main purpose was to give players powerful tools to create their own adventures on a computer game and play them with their friends. I personally didn't give that feature much of a try so I can't comment on how good it is. With that said, I did enjoy both NWN games, with the second one being better as far as story/characters go but with more technical problems. Then again, I played those campaigns in coop with my brothers so that does elevate the experience a little.

I do believe that calling them horrible games is wrong though. Sure they might not be on the same level as Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale or Torment, but that doesn't make them unplayable.

As for Divinity 2, I can't really say anything since I haven't played it yet. But I watched a few german videos and it does look fun. We just have to wait and hope. If its quality is anywhere near the original game's, it'll be great.

Actually, graphics was the worst thing about The Witcher, IMO. Not in terms of actual textures, but in terms of performance and stability due to the graphics. They fixed a lot with the enhanced edition, but the performance would really have been much better if they had used a different engine.

Contrary to NWN2, The Witcher had depth. It had an interesting story, characters one could relate to, it had decent choices (not "save everyone, or kill everyone you meet" like NWN2), and the enemy bosses were interesting. To say more, the world in itself was far more interesting and plausible.


And SilverD, judging from your likes about what games or not, I would recommend Drakensang. Though it is true you shouldn't expect that much from items. The RPG system doesn't really like magical items - something I like about Drakensang - even though the devs added magic weapons and a whole magic suit of armor, which is pretty annoying 'cause it doesn't really fit the game.


The only things Drakensang doesn't do that well is skill system - they tried to stay true as much as possible to the original TDE system - and crafting, which is just utilized too little.

The game does have its share of magical rings & gloves, though... in fact some gloves that give +3 dexterity (which is huge in TDE rules system) can be acquired very early & easily.

I didn't like the magical suit of armor myself... though it makes sense from story point of view, it's just weird that you receive the armor when you're playing as a mage character... it made me think that the game was developed for warrior type main characters.

Regarding Drakensang's story - there's absolutely nothing wrong there... it's totally comparable to any BioWare release, in fact, even better since Drakensang's game world has a lore behind it that is as detailed as the Elder Scrolls.

But, overall, Drakensang is one of the best games I've played this year and I am looking forward to Dragon AGe: Origins coming out next month. (also slightly excited about Venetica)

As for NWN1 & 2... I enjoyed them both equally... fun games in their own right, but Baldur's Gate 1 & 2 blow them away cmpletely when it comes to characters, story & quests. Mask of the Betrayer I didn't like very much (at least the story)... it seemed like a lame attempt to recycle parts of the story of PLanescape: Torment to me... I did love the characters, though.

Actually, that's a bummer

A big part of an RPG experience for me is loot hunting and constant equipment and skill progression. Seeing your characters progress from cloth rags to legendary stuff is one of the things I really enjoy. Especially if the best stuff requires you to overcome some challenges and/or find hidden quests, caves etc. In my current playthrough of BGII, I am playing with a mod that permits me to use magic items in any combination, regardless of what bonuses they might have. Just to see how much I can deck my characters out this time around. . It's just fun.

Ah well. Thanks for letting me know, though.

Drakensang is solid and I enjoyed it, but it's a magic weak system, so my advice would be to play a warrior type. AI targeting of your mage and archer types is vicious and you will be outnumbered a lot, so expect to be watch them fall down a lot if you take them with you.

Mmm, been long since i posted here, not that i posted much.
With all this delay of the English version release makes me more hungry for the game, though i want it right now to be in the store so i could buy it, This tease makes the game more appetizing for me. Reviews don`t influence me, if a game is rated low, doesn`t mean i won`t like it, but they do hype up for the game, so in the end only my own experience shows weather i like the game or not.
Let`s go offtopic for other RPGs.
I didnt like the RPG games genre from 2003 till just very recently. I don`t know what it was, was it the graphics, prolly. I just could`nt stand the sight of a 3D RPG game, what i liked was a 2D isometric game, like Arcanum, Temple of Elemental Evil, Divine Divinity for God sakes. So when NWN first came out i turned a blind eye to it. Surely a while later i tryed it out, it was a nice h`n`s game for me, but seriously i didnt get further than chapter 2 when i droped it. When NWN2 was announced, i was on my heels, i couldn`t wait for it, for the time it had pretty nice graphics, i thought i`ll like it, after just an hour of playing i droped it. Both NWN games annoyed me. I remember when i was in school, a friend game me Morrowind. Sadly i could`nt run the game, my PC was a bit old, but as much as i`ve read about it, other peoples comments, reviews and everything i kept believing it`s a fantastic game. A while later Oblivion came out, bu the time i had a PC that could run it, thankfully. Was hoping that what i`ll find in the game will be a successor of Morrowind, sadly i was wrong. I found the game gloomy and empty, i start as a prisoner, the game had no dialogues, the surroundings were unlikely to my eyes, so i droped that aswell. Unfortunetly i could`nt get Morrowind anymore. Later The Witcher came out. I was hyped, i thought finally a game with decent graphics and good reviews and opinions. I was yet again disapointed, i didnt like anything about that game, starting from combat to atmosphere. At the time S.T.A.L.K.E.R. was a big topic aswell, it was okay, as an action RPG, but again it didn`t suit my taste. If i`m not mistaken Gothic 3 came out at about the same time - after just a little while of playing i droped that aswell. Sacred 2 came out, being teased by my friend who was a big Sacred fan, i tryed it out myself, a good competition for Diablo, with its do or don`t gameplay, surely not an RPG. Fallout 3 came out. Oh the nastolgia, now that was fun, but after either reaching level 20, gaining Vengeance, Explorer perk - becomes boring. Surely the DLCs fix that problem, but still, after playing for a while it just became an unlikely game to play. Turn it on, think, now why did i turn it on..? Turn it off. Then the rest that came out after that, i just let them slip, since i like fantasy, not sci-fi, wich means games like Mass Effect and Bioshock(not sure if this is sci-fi, but prolly is) were out of the question. Recently Risen came out, i didnt put much hope on it, but when i tryed it, i was astonished. It`s prolly not the best RPG, but the story was quite entertaining, battles were hard and fun, Dialogues were intersting, not to mention the eastereggs. For a moment i found myself thinking; "Man, this is prolly the best RPG since DD.." After i finished the game i was disapointed on how short it was though. Currently i`m waiting for DA: Origins and D2: Ego Draconis, those are prolly going to be the top 3 RPGs of the year, including Risen. Other than that Diablo 3 and Inquisition(found this 2D isometric piece on the net, supposed to be released in November).
That about sums up my RPG experience. Sorry for offtopic.

The Return key is your friend. :p

Omg wall of text :-/

To be honest i was disappointed by Divinity 2. But I guess it's not because the game is bad in itself, but because i was expecting too much from it. I really thought it would be mixing an excellent RPG + elements from Drakan (the dragon). The dragon part is, imho, a joke. However the RPG is pretty cool, but nothing exceptionnal. Seems to me like an Oblivion with a better 3rd Person camera.

Oh come on, don`t compare good RPGs to Oblivion...

Finally.
Somebody but me thinks that

the first post that was about the rant, was mainly complaining about the continiusly delaying of the game from the international market.
thogh it was an essential rant for the game prosperety and life span on the shelf, most of you (on the first page at least) ignored the main issue, and turned it to a different side issue.

most of you complained that computer games alweys come in the international, and you gota wait for a lesser quality national version (germany, france and other countrys).
the fact DIV2 came out first hand in germany is convinient for you who live in german.

but the major issue was about the lack of international version.
having the needs to fix the game so it would fit other countrys takes time.
but frankly, you- larian studios, running out of time with Div2. the more the game being delayed, the more games it has to fight to stand on top and return the invastment. and yes, the international version is the $$$ you were looking for.

the reason why Div2 is running out of time is because while other games keep geting upgraded with better graphic and game play mechanics, Div2 remain a 2008 (if im not wrong) graphic quality game.
.. and no multiplayer version to keep it alive so far.

it's a shame, really. i was waiting for DIV2 for a long long time. even thought to order it specialy from larian company itself when it would've been out. but now i'd consider other, newer games with better graphic.

the worse part is, thogh i dont do it myself, the "international opinion" about good games that lose their quality stand in the category of "its good enough for me to play, but not good enough for me to buy". and illigaly downloaded through turrents.

i just hope larian will realise that and distribute the game in due time.

Again: this is not Larian's call

not larian's call to deside when the game comes out? : \

Thats Correct!

lol oblivion was terrible

Unfortunately, delays are normal in game development. I've seen mention of a few high profile games in the last couple months having their releases pushed back, even if an exact date had been stated, rather than just a general time frame.

Most RPG fans value story and gameplay above graphics (except action RPGs, which lack substance and need to make up for it with cosmetics). While magazines and some websites may score lower for 'last year' quality graphics, I don't see that as being Larian's biggest potential problem.

The difference between this year's graphics and last year are not really that great any more, especially given the prevalence and expected longevity of the XBox and its graphics limits.

Many story based RPGs do just fine without multi-player to keep them alive. If some form of multi-player gets added to D2:ED it would be a minor enhancement IMNSHO, nice to play around with a bit, but I don't know anyone that could match my schedule consistently enough to finish a 50 hour game.
I think modding tools would be better at keeping the game alive than multi-player.


If graphics are a primary feature for you, then by all means buy newer games with more eye candy.

Thieves use many excuses to justify not paying for things, almost all of which are completely bogus. What any person with any integrity does when they don't think a game is worth the current price is to wait for a sale or a budget re-release a year or two later.


I don't think Larian is/was unaware of any of the problems a delay could cause. The release date is up to the publisher, which has been officially announced as during the holidays (and unofficially listed a couple places as January 5th).

Bah! RPG-snobbery again. You find ARPG's repetitive and boring, ok. But Diablo II looks like a pile of mud on my monitor and yet it STILL gets more replay overall! You just don't get a kick out of building and leveling a character. Tearing through mobs of enemies, finding great loot, assigning skill and stat points, climbing ever higher so that you can vanquish more foes... I don't think "I want to experience that story again" (well maybe if its been a while), instead I think, "I want to build a Druid who specializes in elemental skills and can wear such and such equipment."

ARPG's don't lack substance, they just lack substance you want, like dialogue, intrigue and complex plotting and characters. They activate different pleasure centers in the brain. I don't know if you expected ARPG's to stand shoulder to shoulder with the RPG's you love and were disappointed, or what. There's a growing disconnect between the two types...I don't even think they're on the spectrum sometimes, you see this as RPG fans like you by default avoid any RPG with the word "action" in its description, while others bash The Witcher for being far too limiting with skills and equipment (completely missing the point of the game). Still, the best games IMO blur the lines between the two...

Graphics is dead bottom as a selling point, agreed. That's why D1 and D2, Divinity, Torment, and others are always installed on my comp, while Oblivion, Rise of the Argonauts, and Fable get the axe. The latter ones look great but suck. But don't just merge the love for ARPG's with brainless love of fancy graphics - the two do not go hand in hand.

But all things you mentioned are already contained in most RPG. Its even contained in some FPSs nowadays so its not some original or extraordinary stuff related to this genre. The fact is that RPGs offer this and more - deeper and more interesting world, much more interesting NPCs, dialogue, story, non-combat skills, deeper and more intricate quests etc. So Raze is basically right. A-RPGs usually lacks really significant or original substance compared to (good) RPGs. Of course it doesnt mean all A-RPGs are bad or completely without a point. Some can be fun, some can be very fun, addictive or relaxing, but dont try to pretend they offer content of similar level as RPGs. Its not true.



If they say so they completely missed the point of the game (not developers). Witcher is not any "standard-fare leveling" game with rich loot. It was meant to be game about Witcher and only Witcher (of course its some sort of limitation to present story of one predefined character) and so it is. Its not a game for everyone. If you are into "diablo stuff" or dont like Witcher character, you probably wont have much interest in this game.

Trying to pretend they have the same level of content? Where did I say that?

Yes, skills and equipment are present in all RPG's and many games. Wow. I was trying to convey the focus of ARPG's and what makes them shine when they're done right. "Action" shouldn't just be a word that gets tacked onto 'bad' RPG's as a way to indicate that it's boring and not fun.


But look at how equipment and skill-based Diablo II (the gold standard for ARPG's) or it's clones (Titan Quest, Sacred) are. Huge lists of unique items, set items, runes and charms and gems and jewels to socket, endless ways to craft items with the Horadric Cube or something similar. Hacks and editors galore that you create items and edit them to get skills from other classes and combine with your own. I don't play FPS so maybe they do have that level of development.

I like story, plot, dialogue and characterization. I would rank The Witcher, Jade Empire, Torment, over any action RPG if they were on the same list. These games just don't need to focus on rich skill systems or endless successions of super-armor and weapons, cause they're doing something else - engaging you in a story and bringing you into a world.

Of course Raze is basically right. I'm just making a case for a too much-maligned genre (hey, this thread does have 'RANT' in the title after all)

Raze, to my opinion, graphic is as much importent to the game as the story line and game play. good games contain it all + good OST with bass.
and any one who preffer playing classic rpgs only for the storyline and game play- doesn't know what his missing.

examples to rpg game with good graphic: (this one im playing is mmo, but its all the same)

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.massively.com/media/2009/09/os681_perfectworld_580.jpg
http://vaultmedia.ign.com/rpgvault/image/article/896/896976/perfectworld08080701a_1218076005.jpg
http://static.mmohub.org/game/perfect-world/images/screenshots/screen/perfect-world-8.jpg

and i agree. graphic isnt larian's biggest potential problem. in fact larian's "level of graphic" is fair and reasonable. unlike some games i know that looks like they only work on dos.
any way, i just hope that they will keep upgrading it. (hey, even wow's graphics got upgraded when blizzard released their third expansion)

now, im not sure about the difference between this year and last year's graphics.. all i know is that companys that use graphic engine's just install improvments to them. like light reflection on cave walls.
unlike major intallment such as frontal image of art+space, like watching a forest from afar,and how realistic it looks.

you could compare what you said to dark messiah, and it's multiplayer, which was a minor enhancement.
and i compare it to dungeon siege 1, with its multiplayer, which kept me playing that game another year or so.
i guess its an issue of taste


heh, about the thieves comment. ok. so their thives. wont change the fact that any one with bit torrent or utorrent (etc..) illigaly download games. and thats like 70% of the gamers. 20% never heard about torrents, and only 10% deside to buy it propper.
the thives see free way to get a game and they do that. its not fair to the game makers and is the future doom to the game industry, that already geting bankrupted unless they make online P2P games (like counter strike or monthly fee mmorpgs..or free mmorpg with inside cash shops)
but even if they steal games. some games are worth paying for, so they buy them.

and yea, there are many reasons why to delay poblishing. like avoiding clash's with more promissing games (like when harry potter been delayed, all the other movies got delayed too), or when it will make more money in holydays evening
but the whole ranting is about the overdue of the delaying.

Flixerflax;
There was no snobbery involved, or actually any opinion intended in what I said (though it would have been more accurate to say that action RPGs lack depth, rather than lack substance). Graphics do tend to be more of a main feature in action RPGs, compared to story based RPGs (though not as central as in FPS games, for example).

I don't avoid action RPGs by default, or judge them by anything other than whether they are fun to play (perhaps modified a bit by length or price, as with any game), but there needs to be something more than just a weapon / skill upgrade cycle to keep my interest.


Thirion;
Better graphics are of course more desirable, but when judging a game, I just don't put much weight on that. I have played a few classic RPGs that I missed when they were released, or re-played some that I had finished before, and dated graphics don't really bother me. Actually, out-dated controls are more of an issue with me for old games (after playing adventure games with context sensitive mouse cursors, it is really rough going back to some kind of menu for manual action selection every time you want to switch between looking / picking up / talking / etc).

Maybe I'm just the visual equivalent to being tone deaf, but I don't see that any of the screenshots you linked to were significantly better than D2:ED's graphics. However, if Larian takes advantage of the release delay, patches or subsequent addons (if any) to improve the graphics, or individual aspects, then great.

I have to admit, I'm totally with Flix regarding ARPGs. The fact that they are not 'true' RPGs at all in no way stops them from being excellent games in their own right. They just suffer from being poorly labeled in the first place is all.

I've spent a lot of hours on both types of game and I have no doubt I will again. Both have their charms

It's puzzling that no one has mentioned jRPGs yet!

It's funny how the concept of a 'true ' RPG has changed over the years... nowadays when people refer to 'true' RPGs they usually refer to the story-driven ones from say BioWare or Obsidian Entertainment. Back in the 80s/beginning of 90s 'true' RPGs were pure dungeon crawlers like Ultima, Lands of Lore or Gold Box...

Indeed, this is exactly what I meant, Farflame. Strict ARPG fans can't comprehend why most of Geralt's skills are just passive enhancements, that you basically wear the same armor for the whole game, and that you can't carry more than four big weapons at a time. The Witcher doesn't need that stuff, because it does everything else so right...

Imo, graphics from a technial stand point are nice but not the determining factor on whether a game is good or not - be it rpg, actionrpg or full on action.

I finished Drakan a short while back and had a blast with it, despite very aged graphics. I enjoy games like Geneforge and Avernum, which mildly put don't have spectacular graphics.

Gameplay is and will always be king. Graphics are a nice bonus, but a bad game will always be bad - regardless of the graphics.

Btw, why is it I never see "state of the art" in any game? Reviewers love to say that a game looks dated, but rarely offer names of the games that supposedly look good. To be honest - most games look about the same with very minor technical differences. What makes a difference is art direction and the attention spent on that part of the game.

In that regard, art direction can play an important part of setting the mood, which influences how a game is experienced.

For anyone who is a whore to polygon count and extreme texture detail - as if that somehow makes or breaks a game - well I have nothing but a shrug of my shoulders. There are many gaming gems these people will never experience.

-------

With regards to the Witcher and RPGs; It was a great game and very much a role playing game. You played the role as a Witcher. Some people seem to think that RPG automatically involves you remaking yourself into a game character - and that simply isn't true. Role playing means you take on the role of a particular character in a game world and play *their* role. If it so happens that a game offers enough freedom that you can put your own spin on things - that's great, but not necessary to qualify as an RPG.

Sorry, had to throw in my 2 cents on that one too :P

I don't really think in RPG terms. There are some things I want in a game, mostly it being a medieval-type fantasy setting, 3rd person perspective, character creation, good story, good combat system, good skill system, humor, good voice acting and NPC depth, freedom to make certain choices... Not all elements have to be included for me to like a game. A game can even have only one of these; if it's done well, I may love it.

Look at the Legacy of Kain games, which I loved (especially Defiance)... Look at Urban Chaos, at Warcraft II, etc.

RPG's definitely don't have a monopoly on being games worth playing. There are awful RPG's that are not ARPG's. However, bad ARPG's usually sell a lot more copies than bad 'real' RPG's.

Hey, you just summed up Divinity!

True enough

well i like ego draconis..played a few hours at my cousin's! anyhoo im new and im very interested in these rants here...offtopic maybe but...what about ultima series guys? they rock hard maaaan... i wish there is a better "3D" ultima than ultima 9...Larian can you please acquire the license to make one other ultima? :P

btw how can i suggest this to the mods here? hehe i would sure like to know their answer on that.

btw to the thread starter..play before you judge peace y'all..i'm just sayin..

There is a better 3D Ultima than IX. It was made with the engine from dungeon siege.
http://www.u5lazarus.com/

Anyway, Divinity ftw. Here's to seeing Part 3 soon

Hmmm? I wouldn't say Divinity is anything, but mediocre. It has quite a bit of content, offering lots of playtime. Lets face it there is nothing worse then getting a game you really like and be done with in the first couple days.

Very true froggy there is sooo much content in this game it is amazing i have been reading the European reviews and have been checking up very closely on this game because i very much so enjoyed divine divinity and could not just wait till the release date! but anyways from what trailers i have seen and what i have read this game looks nothing short of amazing and it will definitely be on my wishlist:)

Who really cares that it that comes out later! It's a great game! It'l be out before you know it!!