Larian Studios
Posted By: Sigs Minock Mindreading embargo - 12/05/11 11:44 PM
more a rhetorical question than anything else-
Why are mindreading costs in FoV so damned high?

i just started FoV for the second time, and after all the mindreading in the Hall of Echo's Gauntlet fodder- all of which, the costs were ~2000 exp with lvl 6 Mindreading- of which, i tacked a few of those points to Mindreading. okay, back to the point- starting FoV with Mindreading lvl 7, General Augustus' mindread cost was 9000!
<insert various "It's Over 9000!!" meme's here>
in my first run at FoV, with a moderate Mindreading Rank (like... 4), a majority of Mindreading was well over 10k exp.

i was worried my near infinite Experience Debt would negate any experience i'd earn clearing dungeons and quests.
Posted By: Raze Re: Mindreading embargo - 13/05/11 12:04 AM

In the original release of D2:ED, the Mindread skill was generally considered to be not worth boosting (a minority did). Presumably the higher costs are partly to make the skill more important.

The experience needed to level goes up in proportion to the cube of the level, so the costs to mindread also have to go up, to maintain the relative cost/reward benefit for stat and skill points, at least.

Opponents respawn in some areas in FoV, and I assume give more experience than the regular opponents at the end of D2:ED (haven't got that far yet). The debt shouldn't last significantly longer than in the earlier portion of the game, despite the higher values.

There are many skill points available from quests and mindreading in FoV, so you can easily max the Mindread skill.
Posted By: Trippy Re: Mindreading embargo - 13/05/11 05:00 AM
Also, high mindread costs generally mean good rewards - there are a lot of skill points to be found in FoV from mindreading, so that might explain the cost of those reads.

But Raze is right, there are a ridiculous number of skill points available in FoV compared to the earlier stages of the game, so I would personally recommend maxing out mindreading - it's only 15 points.
Posted By: Stabbey Re: Mindreading embargo - 13/05/11 04:42 PM
It's true that there are more skill points than you need.

But I would not max out mind-reading, because almost all of the mind-reads are in the first part, before any fighting, or before getting the tons of skill-points from solving quests. Those skill points could be used to finish up your main skills. And once you DO start fighting, that seemingly huge experience debt is a joke, it vanishes after one or two dungeons. You can clear it by doing the non-quest bonus dungeons.
Posted By: SENIOR CINCO Re: Mindreading embargo - 13/05/11 07:32 PM
To read, or not to read.

ahh...The ongoing debate of the mind game...

EDIT: The way I see it, if you have the points to spare, spend them. I didn't make it that far into FoV, before a misshap causing a fresh start replay, but I maxed it out because I just felt soooo DEPRESSED acquiring that much debt from the get-go. Books or no books. IMO
Posted By: androshalforc Re: Mindreading embargo - 13/05/11 11:56 PM
it doesent matter the skeleys respawn allowing for infinate xp as long as you dont level up to much
so do all the mindreads first then grind away your exp debt
Posted By: Trippy Re: Mindreading embargo - 14/05/11 05:38 AM
Originally Posted by androshalforc
it doesent matter the skeleys respawn allowing for infinate xp as long as you dont level up to much
so do all the mindreads first then grind away your exp debt

Really? On the PC version all respawn points start to give 0XP after a while. ED let you farm for infinite XP, but DKS fixed that loophole. The '360 version could be different though.
Posted By: Hassat Hunter Re: Mindreading embargo - 14/05/11 10:10 AM
The FoV section doesn't have that.

It don't like it.
Posted By: Sigs Minock Re: Mindreading embargo - 14/05/11 07:15 PM
Originally Posted by androshalforc
it doesent matter the skeleys respawn allowing for infinate xp as long as you dont level up to much
so do all the mindreads first then grind away your exp debt


that's a no brainer.
i went to my battle tower, snagged any accessories with Mindread (so i wouldn't have to allocate points there), mindread everyone important in the Great Market then down to Plaza, then equipped everything with a Wisdom bonus and down into the Abandoned Cave on the right side of the tavern there- the lvl 36+ Skeletons and Ghosts gave enough exp to pay off the debt so far- and even get a level.
then off to Laniwar Lane, mindread all the important people, then get rid of the debt via the Playhouse quest and the Temple Ruins in the back.

The Abandoned Cave is a decent place to farm for XP as the enemies do respawn each visit- but the greater your level, the less XP they reward you, and the more XP you need to level up.
As is the Nihelm Temple Ruins or whatever it's called in Lanilar Lane.
Posted By: Trippy Re: Mindreading embargo - 15/05/11 07:41 AM
OK - I stand corected - I just tried the Abandoned Cave again, and they do seem to keep respawning. I guess Larian missed that one.

Although, I admit I'm getting b**ger-all experience for them at level 46 wink
Posted By: Hassat Hunter Re: Mindreading embargo - 15/05/11 07:47 AM
No, it's intended (the "cursed" section of town has it too, and a few other locations). frown
Posted By: Trippy Re: Mindreading embargo - 15/05/11 08:00 AM
Originally Posted by Hassat Hunter
No, it's intended (the "cursed" section of town has it too, and a few other locations). frown

I was pretty sure the cursed section stopped respawning for me after a while, towards the end of the game I was always finding empty streets. I'm probably wrong though...
Posted By: Hassat Hunter Re: Mindreading embargo - 15/05/11 08:18 AM
Maybe it stops after you stop the curse?
I've never returned afterwards (was my final piece), and it kept infinitely respawning for me...
Posted By: Trippy Re: Mindreading embargo - 15/05/11 08:28 AM
Do'h - that would be it. Obviously if you stop the curse, you'll stop the undead wink
Posted By: AlrikFassbauer Re: Mindreading embargo - 17/05/11 06:37 PM
I thought this was halfway clear ?
Posted By: born2beagator Re: Mindreading embargo - 19/05/11 06:34 AM
Maxing out mindread is not essential, but I really thought being able to freely mindread even the worthless ones added to the game. I liked the extra dialogue. and you get so many skill points in between Draconis and Vengence that you aren't really going to miss the 15 points you put into mindread.
Posted By: Trippy Re: Mindreading embargo - 19/05/11 01:40 PM
Originally Posted by SENIOR CINCO
To read, or not to read...

...That is the question.

To anyone who's actually read this entire thread this far - there's only one piece of advice I can give you: "Make up your own mind!". You can complete the game regardless of the character build you choose. So: if you like mindreading, then by all means reduce the cost. If you don't: then don't waste your skill points. Either way, have fun, and play the game the way you want to play it!
Posted By: Joram Re: Mindreading embargo - 19/05/11 02:26 PM
Wise spoken Trippy ! smile

I will add this:
If you love Mindreading, do all the Mindreadings, with or without investing points in the Mindreading skill .

I do it this way :
1) Mindrading everyone I can ... without putting points in Mindreading (maybe 1 or 2 from equiped items)
2) Love to play this beautiful RPG as long as possible : so if I wish to lower/eliminate my XP Dept I must each time kill enemies somewhere in Aleroth (I heard something about respawning enemies :hihi: )
3) Via the "Mindraeading XP Dept" I can "control" the way my hero will be level-up : fast or slow ! For me this is important because I love the "trading" ... but (so far) my goldcoints are rolling away from me very fast ... straight to all that can have the name "trader" ... so most of the time I love the XP dept so I stay longer on the same Level to have the chance to find goodies I can sell or find more Gold to buy goodies I wish to get my hands on them ... .

So, in this case I've ALL things (mentioned above) I wish in one playthrough biggrin ...

And THAT's just So great about this RPG :
It don't hold your hand
It give the player the chance to use his brains & be creative ...
And the outcome is that you, player,
Can play this game in the way you want :
You can find your Own Unique Way to play the Dragon Knigth Saga !


Posted By: born2beagator Re: Mindreading embargo - 19/05/11 02:31 PM
"Controlling your leveling" that bring back memories of the Oblivion leveling system :P
Posted By: Trippy Re: Mindreading embargo - 19/05/11 02:43 PM
Originally Posted by born2beagator
"Controlling your leveling" that bring back memories of the Oblivion leveling system :P

LoL - I had an Excel spreadsheet to track my 'Oblivion Leveling' - if you got it right, then you could get all stats and abilities to 100 before you hit the maximum level limit (around the high 40's in Oblivion if I remember right - although you had about twice as much lee-way in Morrowind).

I was really glad that DKS didn't require the same level of 'anal renention' (with respect to your character stats) in order to create a decent character...
Posted By: born2beagator Re: Mindreading embargo - 19/05/11 02:52 PM
So did I :P
I made a word document and tracked EVERY time I leveled a major skill. I had a nearly invincible character by the end.
Posted By: SENIOR CINCO Re: Mindreading embargo - 19/05/11 03:01 PM
LOL...I know this is WAY off topic , but I have to comment. I played through Obl 8 or 9 times, and the last 3, I spent hours on end training and leveling. To get 100 in all but Luck (95), before ever doing any quests...pen and paper all the way...that's sad.
Posted By: Joram Re: Mindreading embargo - 19/05/11 03:01 PM
Originally Posted by Stabbey
... You can clear it by doing the non-quest bonus dungeons.


Hi Stabbey,

question :
if I start FoV (after completing Ego Draconis & playing seemless further on in FoV),
can I go early on to one of the bonus dungeons with respawning enemies?
Can I wait with many "Mindreadings" or must I do them all before I can go to one of the "battlefields" to eliminate some XP Dept early on ?
Posted By: Trippy Re: Mindreading embargo - 19/05/11 03:17 PM
Originally Posted by born2beagator
So did I :P
I made a word document and tracked EVERY time I leveled a major skill. I had a nearly invincible character by the end.

This is off topic, but I have to respond... Yep - those max skill bonuses were too important to miss. You needed to get at least two (3*ability) bonuses every level, with the third (unmodified) bonus spent on 'luck'. And if you obeyed this simple rule, then you'd be 100% in every ability (and therefore nearly invincible) by the time you reached a decent level...
Posted By: born2beagator Re: Mindreading embargo - 19/05/11 03:22 PM
Hopefully skrim improves the leveling system. Okay, back on topic now
Posted By: Trippy Re: Mindreading embargo - 19/05/11 03:24 PM
Originally Posted by SENIOR CINCO
LOL...I know this is WAY off topic , but I have to comment. I played through Obl 8 or 9 times, and the last 3, I spent hours on end training and leveling. To get 100 in all but Luck (95), before ever doing any quests...pen and paper all the way...that's sad.

Yes - possibly sad... In fact, almost certainly sad... But I did it (twice, in Morrowind and Oblivion). It was a matter of honour! After all, it was just a matter of managing your individual 3* ability increases...

But I admit, still sad... (even if I did manage 100% in every ability, including luck!)
Posted By: SENIOR CINCO Re: Mindreading embargo - 19/05/11 03:53 PM
It's official then...We are now members of SLAP...Sad Leveling Anal Players
Posted By: Stabbey Re: Mindreading embargo - 20/05/11 10:20 PM
Originally Posted by Joram
Originally Posted by Stabbey
... You can clear it by doing the non-quest bonus dungeons.


Hi Stabbey,

question :
if I start FoV (after completing Ego Draconis & playing seemless further on in FoV),
can I go early on to one of the bonus dungeons with respawning enemies?
Can I wait with many "Mindreadings" or must I do them all before I can go to one of the "battlefields" to eliminate some XP Dept early on ?


Yes.

The bonus dungeons are in the Great Market near Carcella's pyre, and in Mardaneus Plaza in the pig pen. I call them bonus because there are no quests associated with them, and they have no unique items.
Posted By: Joram Re: Mindreading embargo - 06/06/11 07:46 AM
Thanks Stabbey ! This is for me very very great news and intresting info to know in beforehand to make my XP/Level up-strategy-plans further on .
Just me hahaha

A Big Long claphands for the devs of Larian !
Posted By: Sigs Minock Re: Mindreading embargo - 07/06/11 12:18 AM
there's a dungeon near wazzisnames' pyre?!? how did i not see that?
Posted By: conjurer Re: Mindreading embargo - 30/06/11 12:24 PM
another solution for the mindread investment problem to do or not to do:

first put max points in mindread
second read all minds you want.
thirdly go to your trainer and unlearn all skills
fourth: asign your skills and play along;)
Posted By: Hassat Hunter Re: Mindreading embargo - 30/06/11 11:22 PM
Problem with that is that the area beyond the three unlocks after about half-the-game?
So you would need to do that twice for maximum efficiency, which costs a lot of gold (not that FoV doesn't drop you dead with it, but still...)
Posted By: Joram Re: Mindreading embargo - 01/07/11 07:16 AM
I find it lovely to "play" with the XP and "XP Dept" ... so I can work out and have "control" over the moment my hero will Level Up smile
So if I wish to not level up too fast, I search for new NPC's to Mindrading them for more XP Dept.

Since each trader restock after a Level Up and since I love trading, I do the calculation, playing with XP's and totally don't bother about the high XP dept via Mindreading ... the lower my hero's level, the more XP for killing enemies smile ... so I don't invest in the Mindreading skill (so far at level 27 just 1 point (1/5) ).
Posted By: Silverdragon Re: Mindreading embargo - 01/07/11 11:54 AM
Originally Posted by Sigs Minock
more a rhetorical question than anything else-
Why are mindreading costs in FoV so damned high?


They are not. It just seems that way. Yes, you can quickly ramp up a debt of like 300k+ but given the amounts of XP you get in the game it's really neglectible.

Also, the game adjusts the xp you get from monsters by your own level. What does that mean? If you level slower due to mindreading more often, you get *more* xp than you would have gotten if you have saved all those mindreading-xp.
You still pay a bit more without mindreading but in the end, I doubt the difference is that actually big (if it makes up for two levels at the very end, I'd be highly surprised).

Also, putting skillpoints into mindreading (and wisdom) does not make any sense at all. As every skillpoint you get equals (roughly) one level, each point in mindreading and wisdom has to bring you a level in savings or it's a point you should spend elsewhere.
Given the xp scales to your level increasing wis and mindreading will never pay off.

---

Now that I wrote that I feel curious how it actually works out.
I'm not sure if the numbers are correct, but I have the impression, you get 10% more xp for every level that is below the monster you kill and 10% less for every level you are above it. At least the rough region seems to be correct.
So if a level 20 monster is "worth" 3000 xp and you are level 20, you get 3000, if you are level 19 you get 3300 and if you are level 21 you only get 2700 xp for killing it.

Let's build some sample players: Player A has put skillpoints in Wisdom to get 5% more xp (like 3 or so?) and does not mindread at all as he wants to save those xp.
Player B has two skillpoints in Mindread to save like 20% of those xp and also has some points in wisdom (like 3) to also get 5% more xp. Player B mindreads people worth 50.000 (and due to his 20% savings he only pays 40k for that).
Player C has no points in wisdom, none in mindread, but also mindreads everyone he meets.
Both start with the same level (let's say... 18) without any XP debt (like... at the beginning of FoV) and player A never mindreads but Player B collects a debt of like 50.000 due to enjoying the nice things Larian put into the game (and gets extra stuff from mindread-stuff).
Player D does nothing. No mindread at all, no skillpoints in wisdom.

Let's assume you get a level every 50.000 and that both kill a dungeon of 50 monsters (those mentioned above worth 3k each).
The players all get 3600 per monster as long they are level 18, 3300 per monster if they are level 19, 3000 per monster if they are level 20, and 2700 if they are level 21.

So, you can get 150k base-xp from those 50 monsters. Let's see what actually happens.

In the following calculations, I will round fractions of monsters to full monsters. wink
I do not know how the xp for wisdom works, meaning if you get 5% of the BASE xp cost extra of 5% of the total xp (scaled by level); I will assume it's scaled by level.

Player A (0 debt, +5% xp, has spent 3 skillpoints aka 3 levels):
Level 18: He gets 3780 xp per monster and is level 19 after killing 14 enemies.
Level 19: He gets 3465 xp per monster and is level 20 after killing 15 more enemies.
Level 20: He gets 3150 xp per monster and is level 21 after killing 16 more enemies.
Level 21: He has 5 monsters left and will get 14k xp for them.

Player B (40000 debt, +5% xp, -20% on mindread, he has spent 5 skillpoints aka 5 levels):
Level 18: 3780 per monster and is level 19 after 27 killing enemies.
Level 19: 3465 per monster and is level 20 after killing 15 more enemies.
Level 20: He has 8 monsters left and will get 25200 xp from them (3150 each); this puts him halfway into level 21; he has 40k less than player A (his debt).

Player C (50000 debt, no bonus xp, he spent 0 skillpoints aka levels):
Level 18: 3600 per monster and he will be level 19 after 28 monsters.
Level 19: 3300 per monster and he will be level 20 after 16 more monsters.
Level 20: Has 6 monsters left and will get 18000 for them.
He has 46k less than Player A and 6k less than player B.

Player D(no debt, no bonus xp, no skillpoints aka levels spent on getting more xp):
Level 18: 3600 per monsters, he will be level 19 after 14 monsters.
Level 19: 3300 per monster, he will be level 20 after 16 more monsters.
Level 20: 3000 per monster, he will be level 21 after 17 more monsters.
Level 21: 2700 per monsters and 3 remaining monsters: 8100 xp.
He has 6k less than player A, 46k more than player B, and 52k more than player C.


When comparing the players I conclude (for myself):
Player A passes up all extra rewards (including skill- and statpoints!) and misses the story to gain a bit more xp. His 3 skillpoints he put in wisdom make his character significantly weaker than one that did not spent those points (Player D). To make that pay, he has to be at least 4 levels higher than Player D *at the end of the game* but paid for that with a character that is weaker over 90+% of the game's playtime.
Conclusion: Skillpoints in wisdom don't really pay.

Player B wants to mindread and also wants xp, so he spends 5 skillpoints on mindread and wisdom. If compared to player C, it turns out that player C will be one level behind - but has not spent the skillpoints of five(!) levels to have that slight advantage. Player C got all the advantages (rewards and nice story) as player B did.
Player C is a few thousand xp behind Player B and it *might* total up to a full level at the end of the game (in addition to the level or two you might get from the wisdom), but Player B must be at least six Levels ahead of Player C in the end to make this setup be worth the points.
Conclusion: In addition to points in wisdom being a waste that does not pay, skillpoints in mindread do not pay as well.

Player A and D are roughly the same level, but A is like three behind due to his skillpoint-usuage.

And the XP to pay the debt in the AddOn come fast enough anyway, also.. does it matter if you are level... 46 or 44 at the end of the game? Not really, I think.
Posted By: Hassat Hunter Re: Mindreading embargo - 01/07/11 02:45 PM
In FoV skillpoints are given so royally that it doesn't mean 1 per level, more 25 per level.

In that situation, why NOT invest in Mindread? Saving hundreds of K's of XP-debt.
Posted By: Raze Re: Mindreading embargo - 01/07/11 04:17 PM

Originally Posted by Silverdragon
I'm not sure if the numbers are correct, but I have the impression, you get 10% more xp for every level that is below the monster you kill and 10% less for every level you are above it. At least the rough region seems to be correct.

I didn't do any rigorous testing in DKS, but see the D2:ED topic xp points per level list? spoilers possible.
If you are 1 level below an opponent you get a 1/6 experience bonus, 2 levels gives an extra 1/3 and 3 or more gives an extra 1/2. If you are more than one level above your opponent, the experience drops off as the inverse square of the level difference.


If you have spare skill points, they would do you more good invested in Mindread than being unused; the same with Wisdom, though to a lesser extent, since there are areas with respawning opponents in FoV. If you have other skills you wish to boost, then Mindread and Wisdom can certainly be neglected.


In DKS Before defeating Zandalor I was level 37.47. In D2:ED I finished at level 36.75. At least part of the difference was due to balancing changes in DKS. For example, in D2:ED I got to level 18 in the fjords before heading to Sentinel Island, while in DKS I made it to level 22. The difference in experience on those two levels from mindreading the island was still only 11.7% of the experience needed to reach level 38. There was also additional experience from quests in DKS, though not a lot (I never tried to figure out how much), according to a Larian comment on quest experience balancing to make it easier to level at the start of the game.

In D2:ED I delayed turning in some quests, but didn't really go out of my way trying to level. I used the Talisman of the North for quite awhile, and between about level 13 and the Hall of Echoes got Wisdom up to level 9 or 10, 4 or 5 of which was from equipment bonuses (equipping Rothman's Bow to turn in quests). Before the Hall of Echoes I boosted it to level 13, to see if I could get to level 37 before the end of the game, thinking the area might be larger than it was. I reloaded for some useless mindreads, but not all.

In DKS I specifically tried to do all the mindreads first, then clear opponents as much as possible and then turn in quests, to maximize the experience given. I didn't learn Wisdom, though did eventually collect jewellery with a combined +8 bonus. I deliberately mindread pretty much everyone.

Neglecting the balancing and island mindread differences between D2:ED and DKS, at best (assuming only a modest increase in quest and opponent experience levels) my efforts brought me from level 36 and 3/4 to 37 and 1/3.
It seems there is a slight benefit trying to maximize experience, but not enough to worry about if you need to turn in quests early to level, or simply wish to do side quests as you get them, etc. If I wanted a more exact idea of the difference I'd play DKS again doing side quests as early as possible; I can't see that happening for my next character, but I will not be as strict about delaying quests.
Posted By: Silverdragon Re: Mindreading embargo - 02/07/11 09:15 AM
Thanks for the link, it's exactly what I was too lazy to do.

And your post somewhat confirms what I concluded for myself: Trying to optimise XP gives some benefit, but it's acutally not really worth it. Wisdom (and mindread) is nice - if you get it for free on items and do not have to pay for it with the precious skillpoints.

@Hassat_hunter
100s of Ks of xp are not THAt much in FoV, so I rather improve my skills with the points I get. Especially as five skillpoints in wisdom or mindread get me (less than?) two additional (due to levels) skillpoints in the end. If I have to invest 5000$ to get 2000$, I do not really see the point to do it. You level a tick faster, though. But if that makes a difference (level 37 char vs. level 36 char) is up to you to decide. I don't think it matters anymore so I rather put my extra skills to a better use in enabling me to kill the enemies with more ease.
Posted By: conjurer Re: Mindreading embargo - 13/07/11 01:13 PM
Originally Posted by Sigs Minock
more a rhetorical question than anything else-
Why are mindreading costs in FoV so damned high?

i just started FoV for the second time, and after all the mindreading in the Hall of Echo's Gauntlet fodder- all of which, the costs were ~2000 exp with lvl 6 Mindreading- of which, i tacked a few of those points to Mindreading. okay, back to the point- starting FoV with Mindreading lvl 7, General Augustus' mindread cost was 9000!
<insert various "It's Over 9000!!" meme's here>
in my first run at FoV, with a moderate Mindreading Rank (like... 4), a majority of Mindreading was well over 10k exp.

i was worried my near infinite Experience Debt would negate any experience i'd earn clearing dungeons and quests.



well it's a smart thing not to install the patch for FOV laugh then your respawning enemy's never gives 0 XP. if you install it then the loop is fixed

when I first played FOV I max the mindread skill. I was level 35 at the beginning I put 10 points in wisdom. my ending level was 46 (could be higher because I didn't exploit the respawning to the max)
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