Larian Studios
Posted By: Stabbey Ideas for Traits and Talents - 22/04/13 01:14 PM
I feel pretty confident that the Traits and Talents Stretch goal will be met. Let's make this topic a catchall for discussion on some of those.


It's been confirmed that attributes will cap at 20. I think reaching 20 in an attribute deserves a trait as a reward, don't you? What are some possible level traits suited for reaching level 20?

Perks for 20 points in Attribute X:

These are just some random ideas, and some are probably too weak or just plain bad. I had a hard time thinking of these.

  • StrengthThrow Enemy: Gain the Throw Enemy skill (0 mana cost, uses X AP). Throw any small or medium sized enemy you are adjacent to. The enemy takes half your currently equipped weapon's attack damage on landing.
  • DexterityDouble Strike: (Passive) 5% Chance that a normal attack will go off twice. It has the same miss chance as a normal attack, the miss chance is calculated for each individual chance. Does not work on special moves (anything that uses mana).
  • IntelligenceEffortless Casting: (Passive) 10% Chance that any spell you cast won’t cost any mana/will refund you the cost of casting.
  • ConstitutionSecond Chance: (Passive) Once an encounter, if an attack would normally kill you, instead you are reduced to 1 HP, and possibly are invulnerable until your next turn. If in the same combat encounter, there is a second attack that would normally kill you, it will.
  • SpeedFaster than Light: (Passive) 5% Chance for a second turn immediately after your first.
  • PerceptionDeath Blow: (Passive?) 5% chance of an instant kill on any non-boss enemy, regardless of level or hit points. Or maybe a special active attack that is rolled agaisnt the enemy speed, which just gives a damage boost if it fails.




In the Quill18 video, David said that soldiers were smart enough to recognize that if you targeted an enemy and they were caught in the splash that they would not consider you hostile, they wouldn't take it personally.

I think that would be the fine basis for a Personality Trait that can get added to your character if you cause a certain amount of friendly fire damage/death to NPC's: Unfriendly Fire: X% bonus damage to area-effect attacks, melee hirelings hiring price increased, NPC soldier default reaction decreased.

Maybe not that exact stuff, but something along those lines.
Posted By: X-tasy Re: Ideas for Traits and Talents - 22/04/13 01:35 PM
For me that wouldnt be attractive. I dont like to specialize in only one or two attributes.

If such reward is implemented in the game it would kind of force me to give some more points in only strengh and constitution and totally forget about speed and so on because it is more attractive to me to go for 20 points in one attribut than 15 in one and five in another.

this will be kind of prevent allrounders and only reward specialized charackters.
Posted By: Arhu Re: Ideas for Traits and Talents - 22/04/13 01:39 PM
Originally Posted by Stabbey
Perks for 20 points in Attribute X:

Sounds fun and promotes further specialization. This sounds a lot like Wizardry 8, actually, which I have been playing recently. Let me see if I can dig it up...

Players can focus on ~two of seven stats at a time if they want to specialize. If a stat reaches 100, the character gains access to expert skills (read: perks) that the player can put regular skill points into.

Stats mechanics taken from Wizardry 8 stats

Code
Attributes
----------
Strength	2.5 lbs carry weight, .7 stamina
		Melee: .1 to Hit, .1 Attack Rating, 2%/1% damage above/below 50
		Ranged: 1%/.5% damage above/below 50
Intelligence	? spell points
Piety		.7 stamina, ? spell points
Vitality	1.25 lbs carry weight, .7 stamina, .125 HP/Level
Dexterity	Ranged: .1 to Hit, .125 Attack Rating
		Melee: .1 to Hit, .083 Attack Rating
		Adds extra attacks as you level up, although slower than speed
Speed		.04 AC, .2 Initiative
		Adds extra attacks and swings as you level up
Senses		Melee: .05 to Hit, .05 Attack Rating
		Ranged: .05 to Hit, .05 Attack Rating


Expert skills
-------------
Power Strike	Melee: .05 to Hit, .05 Attack Rating
Iron Will	.2 all magic resistances
Iron Skin	.25 damage resistance
Reflection	.06 AC
Snake Speed	.1 Initiative
Eagle Eye	Ranged: .0625 to Hit, .0625 Attack Rating


Originally Posted by X-tasy
this will be kind of prevent allrounders and only reward specialized charackters.

Not if there is a fitting perk also for characters that have at least XX points in every stat.
Posted By: Stabbey Re: Ideas for Traits and Talents - 22/04/13 02:03 PM
Originally Posted by X-tasy
For me that wouldnt be attractive. I dont like to specialize in only one or two attributes.

If such reward is implemented in the game it would kind of force me to give some more points in only strengh and constitution and totally forget about speed and so on because it is more attractive to me to go for 20 points in one attribut than 15 in one and five in another.

this will be kind of prevent allrounders and only reward specialized charackters.


You're right, the maxed-stat rewards will have to be balanced so that they're more of good bonuses than must-haves that will draw you from your intended build. But since attribute points will be pretty limited, focusing on one will be at the detriment to other attributes, so there should be a compensation to make it worthwhile, hence the idea of a talent at maximum level.
Posted By: Jaddeth Re: Ideas for Traits and Talents - 22/04/13 02:12 PM
Maybe more reactive system. If you often use an ability X, there will be higher chance that you will recieve a perk connected with X. Some examples:

- You start every fight by summoning elemental, so the game rewards you with "Summoner" perk - your summons have more health and/or deal more damage.
- Like to play with two-handed hammers? Everytime you fight with a hammer you have a higher chance of knocking back your enemies.

More general ideas:

- During the fight you tend to loose a lot of health. Your character will recieve one of these: health regeneration when your health reaches xx%, higher damage when your health is bellow xx%,
- Spending a lot of mana - mana potions regenerate more mana, your spells cost less mana

I think that it would be a great idea, because the player will be rewarded accordingly to his playstyle, not to his stats.
Posted By: X-tasy Re: Ideas for Traits and Talents - 22/04/13 02:15 PM
Yeah that sounds much better but a 20% chance for doublestrike is pretty overpowered i think especially with crit. i mean for every dd-rogue that would be a musthave and this would prevent me of giving points into strength (which is increasing the melee dmg).
I have to say that i love the definitions of the attributes how they are now and more perks would outbalance this again.

And i think we all know that larian is not always good on balcing skills (skorpions in DD, the multiple arrow in D2 are totally overpowered und kill even the endboss in seconds even on nightmare mode).
and thats why i have the fear that this perks cant be well balanced without forcing players into a certain skilltree on hard/nightmare mode.
Posted By: Affixiation Re: Ideas for Traits and Talents - 22/04/13 03:07 PM
Some ideas for faith traits:
High-
Divine Might:
Having high faith and strength/dexterity/intelligence rewards you with a damage bonus vs undead/demons/elementals.

Blessed Bulwark:
High faith & Constitution grants you a small chance to absorb any attack made against you.

Low-

Unbeliever:
Low faith and high combat stats leads you into putting faith only in yourself increasing all damage by a small amount.

Battle Bound:
Low faith and high constitution leads you to knowing your armor like a second skin, increasing your armor rating by a small amount and reducing the rate at which it degrades.

Posted By: Brian Wright Re: Ideas for Traits and Talents - 22/04/13 10:21 PM
I hope its a system with both negative and positive traits. That way I can take the 'Bad BO' trait (-2 cha) in order to be able to afford the 'Monkey toes' trait (May wield one small weapon while not wearing foorwear)
Posted By: Kou The Mad Re: Ideas for Traits and Talents - 23/04/13 02:14 AM
something Involving Insanity would be fun.
Posted By: Kingslayer Re: Ideas for Traits and Talents - 23/04/13 07:04 AM
I like the idea of negative traits, too. In the Arkania games, you can make your characters claustrophobic or necrophobic. I love the idea of a cleric whose job it is to go into crypts to smite undead actually being terrified of crypts and terrified of the undead.

I'd say there are traits which are simply modifiers dressed up with some flavourful text (e.g. "Zealous: Immune to fear effects when in sight of a church or shrine to your god.") and then there are ones that add totally new things (e.g. "Intuitive: Dialogue options that would cause an NPC to agree or disagree with you are marked in green and red text respectively.") The first ones are easier to implement but the latter ones are a lot more interesting, even if they don't necessarily give you any advantage.

I'd like some characterful things that don't really do anything stats-wise, myself. Things like making your character sing certain songs if he or she gets drunk, or something like "Impulsive", where your character has a chance to randomly choose certain dialogue options without your input.

Posted By: Timeraider Re: Ideas for Traits and Talents - 23/04/13 09:04 AM
I like the idea of having opposite traits.. for example if you get.. uhmm "non-believer", which allows you to do more damage against normal things like orcs, wolves etc. etc. but makes you more feeble to damage done by ghosts and skeletons. Or "swift of foot" which would allow for a base +1 statpoint, but gives you 10% chance to trip and fall down at movement actions above 2 actionpoints of cost.

Though ofcourse non-combat traits would be awesome to laugh
Posted By: Zerael Re: Ideas for Traits and Talents - 23/04/13 10:32 AM
There is plenty of room to make interesting traits and talents. As I see it, it could become a very interesting gameplay feature, or just a forgettable, irrelevante one.

I'm not expecting lots of traits/talents not combat focused, but I would certainly welcome a generous addition of those. Only by reading posts here, it's clear that many of us see this as an opportunity to delve deeper in character customization and role-playing inmersion.

So, that said... I hope that the talents affecting dialogues and non-hostile situations are well implemented. As I stated in other threads, I would really appreaciatte a well developed persuasion system that makes the investment in this area something enjoyable and powerful -and not just an opportunity to make scarce and uninspired dialogue branches. If we are given the chance to develope a persuasive character, I hope that this investment bears some importance in both critical and optional quests.

Of course, I'm not saying that persuasive characters are meant to bypass every situation with good dialogue options. But also, I don't want to feel that I have wasted the character growth with talents that only are useful in a couple of irrelevant places.
Posted By: Stabbey Re: Ideas for Traits and Talents - 23/04/13 02:03 PM
What about a Recuperation Talent that helps you if you end your turn with unused action points? If you have 1 or 2 action points left, the talent automatically converts them into a LITTLE bit of healing. Not as much as drinking a potion, just something useful if you end up with spare action points after ending your turn.


EDIT: I don't know how the health scaling in the game will work, or what level you'd have to be to take this talent, or if your HP goes up naturally as you level, so this is just a rough spitballing estimate. Right now in the media build you have 74 HP at level 2.

This only works if you end the turn with 1 or 2 AP. Maybe the amount healed increases per level:

Level 1 = 5 HP each (max 10)
Level 2 = 6 HP each (max 12)
Level 5 = 9 HP each (max 18)
Level 10 = 14 HP each (max 28)
Level 15 = 19 HP each (max 38)
Level 20 = 24 HP each (max 48)

At level 2, 12 HP is 16% of your total. It's probably just enough to keep you going for a while longer. 48 HP probably isn't that much anymore at level 20, but it probably helps.
Posted By: Rod Lightning Re: Ideas for Traits and Talents - 23/04/13 02:35 PM
That's actually pretty smart. It'd give you more reasons to actually just back off a bit instead of always trying to use every single AP..I'm liking that.
Posted By: Zerael Re: Ideas for Traits and Talents - 23/04/13 02:51 PM
Yes, I like this idea, too. Something like "first aid" or "taking care".

Some magic oriented talents could be cool, too. Maybe something like "effieciency", allowing chances for less mana use in every spell cast.

Also, I think that dialogue talents should have different natures like "demanding" (for greedy characters), "pathological liar" or "sophist" ^_^
Posted By: Rod Lightning Re: Ideas for Traits and Talents - 23/04/13 03:25 PM
Yeah i'd like it if regaining your health is somewhat of a big deal during combat. Spamming the health potion icon isn't something I'm looking forward to and where are the tactics in that? In any case, this thread provided a good read here and there.
Posted By: Brian Wright Re: Ideas for Traits and Talents - 25/04/13 04:57 PM
Originally Posted by Stabbey
What about a Recuperation Talent that helps you if you end your turn with unused action points? If you have 1 or 2 action points left, the talent automatically converts them into a LITTLE bit of healing. Not as much as drinking a potion, just something useful if you end up with spare action points after ending your turn.


EDIT: I don't know how the health scaling in the game will work, or what level you'd have to be to take this talent, or if your HP goes up naturally as you level, so this is just a rough spitballing estimate. Right now in the media build you have 74 HP at level 2.

This only works if you end the turn with 1 or 2 AP. Maybe the amount healed increases per level:

Level 1 = 5 HP each (max 10)
Level 2 = 6 HP each (max 12)
Level 5 = 9 HP each (max 18)
Level 10 = 14 HP each (max 28)
Level 15 = 19 HP each (max 38)
Level 20 = 24 HP each (max 48)

At level 2, 12 HP is 16% of your total. It's probably just enough to keep you going for a while longer. 48 HP probably isn't that much anymore at level 20, but it probably helps.


That is insanely powerful. Regen is a very powerful trait. It really should be limited to out of combat situations to prevent it from adversely affecting game balance.
Posted By: Stabbey Re: Ideas for Traits and Talents - 29/04/13 11:56 AM
Yeah, could be. Cut the values down by half, maybe. But I'm not here about that right now. I've got a question for Larian.


Are Talents just another word for Passive Skills?

I know, I know, To Be Determined and such, but in the videos, it seems that's what a lot of them are. There was talk about spending Talent points on things like curiosity, so there's a Talent point system. Are Talent points separate from Skill points, or do they share the same precious pool of Skill points. How do you acquire Talent points?


EDIT:

Found some information on how you get them on an update page. Duh.

Quote
We'll introduce talents that further define your character. These talents help you in combat, in dialogues with NPCs, and in all kinds of other interactions. You get to choose some at character creation, by exploring the world, and occasionally through leveling up.
Posted By: dwelfusius Re: Ideas for Traits and Talents - 29/04/13 11:59 AM
Originally Posted by Stabbey

Are Talents just another word for Passive Skills



Had the same impression..But that wouldn't be consistent with their previous way of skill tree (active/passive mingled)
Posted By: pall Re: Ideas for Traits and Talents - 29/04/13 01:03 PM
I thought that Talents would be similar to Trails from Fallout games, but being positive only.
Posted By: Stabbey Re: Ideas for Traits and Talents - 05/05/13 07:18 PM
Talent: Monster Lore - For the purposes of identifying stats of people/monsters ONLY, your Intelligence is considered to have an additional +2 Intelligence per level of Monster Lore. (I don't know what the effect of a single point of Intelligence is to identifying monsters, so maybe +1 per level will suffice.)

This talent is useful for those characters who might want to identify monsters stats better, but without spending too many points into Intelligence themselves.


Talent: Nightvision - Gain a temporary bonus to Perception (+1/Level of Nightvision) at night time. Doesn't function in high-light areas such as those with a torch or other bright light source.


Posted By: Stabbey Re: Ideas for Traits and Talents - 09/05/13 12:22 PM
There could be a bunch of Personality Traits that would only be available on character creation that give +1 to Attribute X and -1 to Attribute Y. Examples:

Trait: Bookworm - While others spent their free hours training their bodies on the field or in the arena, you preferred to exercise your mind in the library. +1 (Initial) Intelligence, -1 (Initial) Strength.

Trait: Gym Overdose - You spent so much time bodybuilding that your muscles have grown muscles. Unfortunately sometimes that means your muscles get in the way of each other. +1 Strength, -1 Dexterity.

Trait: Track Star - Running is your passion, but you spend so much of your time moving fast that you don't have time to absorb all the little details others see. +1 Speed, -1 Perception.

Trait: Unlawful Explorer - There were no shortages of locked doors and forgotten passages at Blackrock Citadel, and you enjoyed the challenge of picking the ancient locks and exploring the dust-filled passages beyond, forgotten by the centuries. Inhaling all that dust however, did your body no good. +1 Dexterity, -1 Constitution.

Trait: Endurance Training - You know that endurance is the key to survival, and you spent your free hours running up and down stairs. Your body is in better shape than ever, although you weren't able to find enough time for your studies. +1 Constitution, -1 Intelligence.

Trait: Birdwatcher - You enjoy watching wildlife at their daily activities. Most become alarmed at the presence of a human, so you have trained yourself to be still and watch. Being still all the time means you're not used to moving quickly when it counts. +1 Perception, -1 Speed.
Posted By: Stabbey Re: Ideas for Traits and Talents - 09/05/13 09:37 PM
Originally Posted by Garod
Also maybe another idea would be an elemental affinity that if you limit yourself to certain elements or use them much more than others you get an affinity to a certain element, if you then start casting another element more often the affinity would change to the new element you use most often..


Elemental Affinity sounds like a good talent/trait for the specialist mage. Maybe it could decrease casting costs for X element type spells, and raise the casting costs for the opposite element spells.


Originally Posted by Garod
If you take allot of greed options in the game, maybe you could earn the haggle talent which would make bartering with merchants better and cheaper. Though not quite sure how altruism would become a talent...



Strictly speaking, that sounds like more like a Personality Traits than a Talent, because it is emergent from your style of play.

Your post did give me an idea on how to make Altruism a useful trait - be Altruistic enough, and it could be a percentage increase of the gold you get as a reward from quests that give a gold reward. Steal too much, and even if you don't get caught, you'll lose that trait.
Posted By: Garod Re: Ideas for Traits and Talents - 10/05/13 06:51 AM

Here some suggestions I also had on the comments but makes more sense to put them here:

I would love to see something like an elemental affinity trait.
The idea is that if you use one element much more than any other you start building an affinity to this talent and the spells of that element get a little stronger while the direct opposite of that element gets weaker.

Example:
Fire Affinity: +1 Fire Based Spells -1 Water Based Spells
Earth Affinity: +1 Earth Based Spells -1 Air Based Spells

With regards to Talents:
Butchery talent:

The idea was based on the fact that you can bake bread in the game (as you said). That would imply that you can do some cooking. If that's the case then when you kill animals you should be able to butcher them for the meat and make some limited food out of it. That brought us to the topic of Weresheep and if it wouldn't be fun to have a secret recepie for Weresheep Roast you could find. That whole discussion lead us to having butchery as a trait, and that you could make your "Butcher" quest relevant by actually being able to learn the "butchery" trait from the Butcher if you chose an alternative ending for that quest. You might find out in the book in the Shelter at the End of time though that the Butcher does some pretty horrible things afterward. But that should be ok since you can always go back and kill him then =)
Posted By: Indira Weresheep Re: Ideas for Traits and Talents - 11/05/13 07:26 AM
Garod, I like the elemental affinities you are proposing, and that butchery talent is good, but a bit creepy too. Me like! laugh

Stabbey, Monster Lore sounds quite interesting too, but like the other ones you proposed, it's very hard to know what one unit of intelligence, etc, will entail. Perhaps you could keep the names and the ideas, but making them enhance such skills in other ways - how, I don't know.
Posted By: Stabbey Re: Ideas for Traits and Talents - 21/06/13 03:37 PM
Talent: Coordination - When attacking a flanked enemy, your chance to hit is increased.

I want a talent that would synergize well with focusing on an enemy, but a flat damage increase was too boring and possibly too powerful. I didn't want to make it a trait with a negative downside which could cause problems, because there are a lot of possible situations where you don't want both people attacking the same target, so many that a penalty would outweigh the benefit for taking this.


Talent: Musician - Some enemies can use music to boost their abilities/heal, and with this talent, you can use instruments in the same way!

(Maybe this should be a skill or two? Probably not enough for an entire skill tree.)


Trait: Spirit Eater (Necromancy) - Delivering the killing blow to an enemy devours their spirit, recovering a little bit of mana for you, but the dark power prevents you from properly resting (you don't recover mana from resting).
Posted By: Kou The Mad Re: Ideas for Traits and Talents - 23/06/13 07:55 AM
Originally Posted by Kingslayer
I like the idea of negative traits, too. In the Arkania games, you can make your characters claustrophobic or necrophobic. I love the idea of a cleric whose job it is to go into crypts to smite undead actually being terrified of crypts and terrified of the undead.

I'd say there are traits which are simply modifiers dressed up with some flavourful text (e.g. "Zealous: Immune to fear effects when in sight of a church or shrine to your god.") and then there are ones that add totally new things (e.g. "Intuitive: Dialogue options that would cause an NPC to agree or disagree with you are marked in green and red text respectively.") The first ones are easier to implement but the latter ones are a lot more interesting, even if they don't necessarily give you any advantage.

I'd like some characterful things that don't really do anything stats-wise, myself. Things like making your character sing certain songs if he or she gets drunk, or something like "Impulsive", where your character has a chance to randomly choose certain dialogue options without your input.



i like the idea of Negative Traits to, but Madness is not a negative trait.
Posted By: Marius Voinescu Re: Ideas for Traits and Talents - 23/06/13 05:08 PM
Originally Posted by Stabbey
Talent: Coordination - When attacking a flanked enemy, your chance to hit is increased.

I want a talent that would synergize well with focusing on an enemy, but a flat damage increase was too boring and possibly too powerful. I didn't want to make it a trait with a negative downside which could cause problems, because there are a lot of possible situations where you don't want both people attacking the same target, so many that a penalty would outweigh the benefit for taking this.


Talent: Musician - Some enemies can use music to boost their abilities/heal, and with this talent, you can use instruments in the same way!

(Maybe this should be a skill or two? Probably not enough for an entire skill tree.)


Trait: Spirit Eater (Necromancy) - Delivering the killing blow to an enemy devours their spirit, recovering a little bit of mana for you, but the dark power prevents you from properly resting (you don't recover mana from resting).

I really like your ideas mate but i got to change the last on simply got to laugh

Soul Master: Set of abilities, pasive and active.
Description: Only a true master of the necromantic and spiritial magic arts may ever hope to atain such powers, fully understanding the realm of death and its mysteries may help one gain power over its eartly inhabitants.

Pasiv: Spiritual insight: All spirits have reason to fear you, your powers are so great you may detect them no matter where they hide.
+Stabbey idea of spirit eater.
Active: Ghostly Shackles: Any enemy caught under the efects of this spell will not find peace in death, instead their soul will become a slave to the caster, weaker souls can be devoured or burned in hellfire, stronger souls may only be banished.

Posted By: Ellary Re: Ideas for Traits and Talents - 27/06/13 04:41 PM
I love love love this idea! but instead of Int being a 10% refund chance..perhaps a +3 or +5 mana regen per turn?
Posted By: Bearhug Re: Ideas for Traits and Talents - 29/06/13 03:32 AM
I think the main problem by most games in the past was that developers inserted a lot of skills/talents/traits but often ended up neglecting most of them in the gameplay that many got quite useless or even redundant.

Some of them might not thought about that as others might had plans but had to cut corners because of budget issues as time is ever a big fiend of game makers, especially when you are not independent.
another big point is of course how central armed conflicts are in most games so that most people tend naturally to focus their points on everything which let them survive.

At the end it lies mainly in the hands of the developers if they take in a later production phase a re-look over their skills and make adaptions to the path the game took with time and cut a skill which looked good at first, maybe add another which fits better as long at least the majority of skills can have somehow some influence in the game.

In a paper game we made you could also pick quirks which gave players a few more points in skills but also added aspects to their characters which could be a more or less serious disadvantage at times. At first they were not too thrilled but realized quickly how much fun actually those quirks could be as it added depth (and realism as their hero was not perfect) and added interaction hooks between players.
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