Hi there, Folks!

I haven't seen anyone mention this yet, so I thought I'd bring it to Larian's attention.

Uber, the Devs for Planetary Annihilation, have released that game on Steam's Early Access for $90 USD.

The reasoning is to match the Kickstarter Alpha Access price.

While I understand where they're coming from, personally, the reception they're getting on Steam is horrific, at best.

I'm not trying to whinge about the pricing in either direction, but as someone who's keenly concerned that Larian succeeds in taking over the world, I felt it wise to point this situation out to you folks so you can avoid any of the pitfalls that just tripped the daylights out of Uber.

I understand the Dev loyalty to their Kickstarter backers. I also understand the average Steam user exploding over an Early Access game with a $90 base price.

Personally, I think this was all done with good intentions, but that's definitely not how the majority of commenters are taking it over on Steam.

Here's the link to the Official Uber post over on the Steam forums.

http://steamcommunity.com/app/233250/discussions/0/864970587226651407/#p1

It's a sad thing to watch, really.

Again, I'm not trying to complain in either direction. I just want Larian to have the BEST experience possible from their Kickstarter and if they consider Steam Early Access.

I think D:OS is the most exciting game in ages, and I really want you folks to knock it out of the park!

Best Wishes,

Snowdrift

Sound slike the typical Trolls created through sweatshops, spoiled with being flooded with games and to prices which are ruinous for almost everybody besides the real huge sweatshop owners.

I posted a more detailed comment about that problem in:
http://www.larian.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=466368&page=3

Such forums are snakepits and often the best friend of the sweatshop owners

In Larian's case, if they add alpha/beta access to the Larian Vault for non-kickstarter backers to purchase, there wouldn't be the same sticker shock of it just showing up on Steam (most people would know in advance that there was a kickstarter and what the add-on prices were set at).

Personally, if I backed Planetary Annihilation at $90, I'd be rather annoyed if the developers listed early access for cheaper. I didn't read the discussion you linked to, but I see all kinds of games listed at prices higher than I am willing to pay. My reaction is to simply not buy the game, but wait for a sale or price drop, or both.

What Raze said - the mistake they made was offering it for sale on steam; they should have 'continue' the kickstart via their website then provided keys for those with alpha/beta access at the appropriate time.

I hope, that there will be no alpha of D:OS in steam.

If steam sells it to a lower price than the endproduct it is unfair for the kickstarter backers.

If steam sells it to a fair price it will repel some costumers.

I think larian that its the best to sell only the finished fully-tested D:OS on steam.

The alpha and beta for D:OS will be likely be run through Steam (that was the idea during the kickstarter, anyway), but AFAIK not sold there.

I think the problem that Uber is having with Planetary Annihilation's debut on Steam isn't really one of right or wrong, but of perception and perspective.

Uber is supporting their backers, as Raze mentioned, and that makes sense...

Steam users who have no prior knowledge of Kickstarter are shocked by a $90 price tag on what they see as an unfinished game - and to them, that makes sense.

There is no inherent right or wrong to this. I don't think either side is "good" or "evil." I'm not saying entitlement is proper, either.

I just think that perception can hurt, whether that inference is achieved justly or otherwise.

I don't think it's fair. I don't think it's right. I don't think it's good. No matter what I think, though, perception is a double-edged sword.

That's true. Uber now has an update about the pricing on the Steam page, though (with the benefit of hindsight) that probably should have been the first thing mentioned in the 'What the developers say' description, before expanding on what early access meant (and/or in 'About the Game').

I think that the synergy of Kickstarter, home-grown crowd-funding, and Steam Early Access is something completely new.

I think that Uber's goal was to be fair. I just don't think they could foresee the way in which the uninitiated might receive them. Not because they're not smart, but because this is all so new.

I'm not trying to point out flame wars with that forum link, but to show how those fair intentions could be incorrectly perceived.

I've never cared more about "the process" of a game "becoming" than I have for Divinity: Original Sin. To that end, I just want Larian to have all the benefits of foresight through the usage of other people's hindsight... if that makes sense...

As already stated; the solution is: Do not sell early access on Steam. Wiat till the release for the product to be sale on steam. This does not prevent the usage of steam for alpha/beta.

I don't like the idea of Early Access, and I never use it. It's paying the developer full price for an Alpha version. Plus, Uber's got a bad reputation for gouging their customers and being jerks.

Larian should have no need to do an Early Access thing at all, that was the point of the Kickstarter.

I rarely pre-order or buy early access for games... people shouldn't be complaining about the price of early access though, if it's too high, just let the company suffer.

the problem is that one should NEVER sell alpha or beta unless it is part of a greater package(like kickstarter) or what the game will sell for when released.. even cheaper like it was for Minecraft. Beta/Alpha should be FREE to test the game to aid the company in releasing the game. I think that is the major reason why there is so much flak for Uber.. that and their game in no way is worth the 90 bucks... IMO Uber is being greedy and will suffer for it.

You think $90 for Alpha from Uber was high? With Larian it was $135.

On a fully funded game, like from a Publisher, sometimes Alpha/Beta access is free.

However, on Indie games, like the ones from Larian and Uber, both used more expensive reward tiers for access to Alpha and Beta to generate more interest and more funds.

Perhaps you have some better ideas to do this?
I have seen many games on crowdfunding, like Kickstarter, and usually the ones without more expensive tiers for Alpha and Beta access do not get funded.

I appears to be normal practice on kickstarter to allow high paying backers alpha and beta access. In all honesty, we are not paying for beta and alpha access, we are paying to make the game better.

As for those whiners, they are just bratty trolls that would do nothing but flame the developers that they are finding bugs in the alpha and beta versions of the game. I see it all the time and it is just pathetic.

Larian goes threw extensive pains to ensure their customers are as happy as possible. I just wish they would give themselves until June of 2014 to release D:OS and goal for January for alpha access. That way the extra content isn't rushed.

Well, no, that's wrong.

Bare-bones, only-the-Alpha Access was $75 - $50 for an Alpha add-on, plus $25 for a steeply discounted version of the normally-$40 base game. Funny enough, if Larian were to remove the discount and sell the base game at full price, the only-the-Alpha package would be $90, the exact same as Uber's early-access beta.

That gets to the crux of the complaints: Pay more now to get a less-good product, or pay much less later to get a better one.


Your "$135-for-Original Sin-Alpha" doesn't take into account that you're also getting 2 copies of Original Sin and one copy of Dragon Commander ($40 each at retail), plus the soundtrack ($10), Developer documents ($10), digital art book, digital map, name an undead and more. That makes the Alpha access a free bonus.

Uber's "$90-for-PA-Alpha" tier on Kickstarter includes the game for $20 (so $40 retail value), the soundtrack ($20), and a special model for the commander unit ($10), and a digital art book (let's say $10). So I suppose it's a bit more value than the $75 Original Sin + Alpha, but not close to as much value as Larian's $135 package.

please read what I said... Larian's falls under "part of a greater package" and to elaborate Kickstarter is essentially a donation that we get stuff for.. not even close to the Steam early access purchase.

If those that are complaining only want the game at the best price, then it's simple: wait until retail release, or even later when it goes on sale.

Alpha/Beta should not be about getting it early and in a lower quality state. For me, I get to help shape the games and make them better.

I am not alone. With Larian D:OS, there are hundreds that will get Alpha, and probably more from add-ons and Paypal.
Al
For PA from Uber, there are already over 8000 Alpha testers.
So some people must see a value there, as I do.

Uber's problem is that they're applying the Kickstarter mindset to Steam, and those platforms are NOT the same.

Kickstarter is for donating to help a developer. It's throwing money into the ether and hoping that what they get back will be worth it. The mindset of a Kickstarter backer is that they are willing to pay more than what they know a thing may be strictly worth.

Steam generally doesn't think that way. The Steam mindset is about impulse buying and going for a good deal. It isn't about deliberately overpaying to fund development. That's why the $90 price tag is getting poorly received.


The developer comes across as double-dipping for community funding after already raising $2.2 MILLION does not help the impression.

I think Uber could just clarify it more community friendly, and maybe lower the alpha price a bit since they don't get the goodies like us backers do. But they can't and won't allow alpha/beta access too low in appeal to quick fix gamers. Reason being:

1. If they open this precedence, people know they will do it again. So I'll just back low tier and get what I want and wait for Steam Early access. Eventually they won't be able to get funded on KickStarter. And that being the primary reason they can't lower the price, they want to continue business as usual like inXile and DoubleFine in KS.

2. Paying high price is like a commitment, you can think it as donation and forget about it, not participating alpha/beta as you like. Imagine that you set alpha price at low low $5, there will be hundreds of thousands complaining bugs and no slot on a alpha to play a broken game and lost interest. So instead of focused testing and maybe getting new mechanism out from alpha, they will be overwhelmed by supporting request. Yes, you essentially pay money to work for free, so the end product might be the one you really like and Uber profit. But I'll do the same for Larian.

3. Those people will buy it even if they say they are not going to buy it. For Uber's interest they just need to make a freaking kickass game. I think publishers already said harsher word to them than internet trolls could ever achieve, they won't give a damn to unreasonable requests. It's their entire company at steak to go KS, they want alpha/beta to be good, so no alpha will turn out good if it's not a controlled ones. PA and D:OS are both not open sandbox game like Minecraft.

4. Let people play early alpha with low entry barrier will definitely get them bad reputation and spread like crazy on internet. It wouldn't be just "that price is buillshit", it will be "this game is gonna be shit". I guess out more mature Larian forum goer will know what I mean.

"double-dipping"? All the funds raised were for pre-order sales and kickstarter rewards, not investment funds. With all sales, you want to make as many as possible, not some fixed amount. So there cannot be any "double-dipping" as they never claimed to pay for anything twice with duplicate funds. The sales are not supposed to stop with just the actual cost of the development, but also include some profit, or what is the point?

You think $2.2 Million is a lot of money for game development? In what country? Certainly not in the usa. I am shocked they can even do it for that. Most top end games have budgets at $20+ Million.

As a communication "90$ for early access" is probably misjudged. In isolation it looks grasping, whatever the forum. If a game I was interested in launched a Kickstarter and $90 was the bottom tier I suspect I'd have a similar reaction.

In the context of $40 for the game, $60 if you want beta access $90 if you want alpha access it feels a lot more like they are giving bonuses to people willing to support them over the odds. It will look a lot better on Kickstarter than on Steam but it's a coherent message wherever.

I don't see the point why people are upset about that 90$ price for alpha access for Planetary Annihilation.....

What would you say if they instead offer a pay-pal "slackerbacker" site where you could still "buy" kickstarter tiers? Everyone would say: "Cool. I missed the kickstarter and I still want to support the devs so I get that alpha tier for $90".

But now they haven't done it via a paypal option, they've done it via Steam Early Access. Point is: it's the same thing, only the name and platform has changed. The game will still be available for $20 at release so there's no reason to be angry about the pricetag.

The Early Access for the alpha at $90 is only meant to people who still want to support the developers by means of financial support AND gameplay/development support (by givinig feedback during the alpha phase).

Everyone who just wants to buy the game should wait until release to get the game for the "normal" price and everyone would be happy.

You're trying logic against entitled Steam brats? Good luck.
Seriously though, they aren't used to the Kickstarter mindset (and frankly Steam Early Access does seem made for the Minecraft approach instead), so the initial reaction is understandable. Like always some trolls insusceptible to reason have to seriously blow it out of proportion, though. If I were Uber, I would've expected it.

I was following some of the comments on Steam, while peoples reaction was a little understandable it has been blown out of proportion. It stuns me that people can't accept the simple thing that if they don't want to pay, then they don't get access, and that they don't NEED to pay now. Wait till later and pay the normal price to play it.

That said, Uber to my mind really shouldn't have put it up for sale. Just used Steam for Alpha / beta testing and left it at that, then maybe do something as they get closer to release where they somehow open access to others.

Poland (seriously, they must work for cents or something)
The fact that developers there don't spend almost half of the "game budget" in publicity, B-list voice actors and hotel rooms (and food, transportation, rent, ect.) for game reviewers (so they can give a "fair" score to the game) probably helps too.
Developers (publisher, more accurately) could cut some really unnecessary corners around here.

I agree with most of the users' points made here as they're either nicely positive or backed by reasonings. So I just wanted to let you know that someone had posted some time ago about this exact issue at a game media site saying that the Uber team has got some of the best-talented and/or skilled programmers in the world, and so therefore they would need to be paid accordingly for their work.

That and also the fact that the studio may also be wishing to receive further money to continue operating as usual a bit long after they release this new game. That crucial money could be partly used to fund additional content (probably to release for free within patches or as DLCs) and to develop a new expansion or a different franchise. So they may as well take as much money as they desire in order to remain independent.

People are so used to paying 10-50$ for a game that when something goes over that - early access or not - it catches them by surprise. And all the chicken littles immediately start screaming the sky is falling. You only ever hear the loudest voices, just like outside of the intertubes.

So much hostility starting to form on these forums yikes! *passes out special cupcakes >.>* lil home baking and some lil happy drug fix that right up!

Anyway to the OP, you have to think about it this way. It is two diff games..and well I looked at that Planetary Annihilation games site. *shakes head a few times* Just another "end of the world" type game and no real point to it~

Divinity Original Sin has a story to it, and also has more complex things to work on and not just "how can I make this building go boom" There is character creation, maps, models, scripts..just a lot of things!

any who, just remember diff games are made diff ways~

Personally, I will probably just wait until the PA pricing hits beta stage and get it if I have the money, since I missed the original kickstarter. The Early access on Steam seem aimed to those that missed, and I'm ok with that.

On the other hand, I would rather see a game just use Steam to run the alphas and betas in the background and not sell early access if kickstarter-appropriate price levels will just turn people away who might have paid the release price.

I think a lot of people in that discussion are missing that an alpha or beta can also just be a part of the game that needs testing, and not the whole thing, as with Dragon Commander. Maybe that could be used to accommodate a lower early price than the kickstarter, while allowing kickstarter backers access to more.

Hi, I don't know why the price is so high. I mean, people HELP them and don't get a finished product !

See the differences with Larian and the beta of Dragon Commander, noone paid for it, they just gave it for two reasons :
- Give a better product, with a lot of beta testers
- Congratulate their backers and reward us !

83 euros to not play a game is pretty strange and gives a bad advertisement to the game... This is a bad idea, in my opinion.

You don't know what you're speaking about. It's not THAT hard to understand, really.....

They made a kickstarter for the game. They had a pledge tier which gave alpha access for $90. They brought their game to steam. They established a "slackerbacker" option for this $90 tier for people who still want to support them making the game - using steam instad of paypal.

There is NO way to offer the alpha or beta below the price poeple had to pay during the kickstarter. That would be screwing the people who intially supported them, which means their biggest fans. Offering a $90 possibility to fans who came late and still want to support them is perfectly legit. If you don't want to support them, don't buy the alpha. You can still wait until the final release will come out which will have a pricetag at about $30 I guess.....

So much trouble because people don't even try to understand and are not even able to inform themselves before making stupid comments on the topic.....

And there was no kickstarter for Dragon Commander, completely different thing. But if Larian would offer a D:OS alpha option later for less than it cost on kickstarter they would also screw their initial backers....

How charging less in steam is screwing anybody? They pledged $90 and getting exaclty what was promised one way or another.
And more importantly Kickstarter is not a store, you are crowfounding a project, not pre-ordering a game. You can give them any quantity of money, even just a dollar, if they decided to support the game with $90 it was their call, if some of them misused it as a way to "buy" an alpha is their own fault
Why are they entitled to maintain the "price" of the alpha anyway? And at the end of the day that's the money they decided to give, if it goes on early access for $90, $10 or $1 it doesn't affect their pledge in any way, is like buying a game and complaining when is on sale, except that they didn't even brought it, they basically donated money to produce the game, whatever they got for a pledge is more a freebie as a show of gratitude from the creators than something you brought. Are you seriously telling me that if Larian charge less than $135 for early access for original sin you are going to complain?

If it becomes commonplace for kickstarted games to offer alpha access cheaply after the kickstarter is over, then that is one less reason to back games on kickstarter and just wait for a pre-order. For the people who do still pledge, alpha and beta access will no longer be of much value, so it isn't much of gesture of appreciation, or an incentive to move to higher level tiers.

During the D:OS kickstarter you could pledge $25 and get the alpha access add-on for $50. If Larian offers the game with alpha access for less than $75, there will most likely be people who complain, with some justification.

They can't pre-order if the game is not kickstarted tho' that should be reason enough

And if they offer early access for $75 or more, there will definitely be people who complain with all justification.

You can't even start to compare people complaining for paying extra for a game that is not finished yet and the privilege of working as a Alpha/beta-tester, to people complaining that someone got a better deal that a pledge which the principal purpose of funding the game, and receiving something as secondary.

I don't even think that is as "likely" as we are presuming, mostly because it already happened with the original sin kickstarter

Divinity Anthology add-on: $20
GamersGate (66% off 5 days ago) $10.18 USD
Steam (66% off 3 months ago) $10.19 USD

Divine Divinity add-on:$5
GamersGate (66% off 5 days ago) $2.04 USD
Steam (66% off 3 months ago) $2.03 USD

And the next steam sale is starting soon (hell, probably tomorrow) and if they were %66 off 3 months ago, i can easily picture a %75 discount this time.
Where are the "likely" complainers? if they exist, are they any close in number to the ones in the steam thread?

They can't pre-order if the game is not kickstarted tho' that should be reason enough

Reason enough for existing fans, and people who's interests closely match the project. Is that where the majority of money comes from? No, it is not.
Do people who were a little iffy on a project in the first place care if it doesn't get funded? No, they do not. There are lots of other games, they they probably have a backlog already.


And if they offer early access for $75 or more, there will definitely be people who complain with all justification.

If the game is listed for sale at $75 with alpha access as a pre-order bonus, people would complain. If it is listed at regular price and there is an option added in the Larian Vault to buy into the alpha, what exactly would be the justification that that must be cheaper than during the kickstarter?


Where are the "likely" complainers

The DD/Anthology add-ons were released games that had been on sale before, multiple times, and everyone knew or could easily find out how much they had been on sale for. They were never presented as being exclusive to the kickstarter, and no reasonable person would think they would not go on sale again before D:OS was released.

Alpha/beta access when offered as part of kickstarter tier rewards, are implicitly... kickstarter rewards. There is no guarantee of exclusivity, unless that is stated, but placing one value on something for your biggest fans and early supporters, then selling it cheaper to everyone else is a tad rude.

But an exclusive alpha to the game they don't care about (and for $90) is a good reason? the majority of the money comes from people that wouldn't care if the game is funded but are persuaded for an unfinished version (again, for almost $100) of it? i thought that really high tiers with alpha/betas are especially for the existing fans and people who care enough to play a game in alpha state, silly me, is actually for people in the "meh" category. I mean, i can see people trying a beta (if is close to going gold) for FREE for a game they aren't really interested in, but an alpha? and a really expensive one? That's what convince people who are iffy about it, really?


Because the game was already founded? let me turn that question back at you, what exactly would be the justification for charging ANYTHING for an alpha? Sure, is their game, they can make a $15 DLC for every section of the option menu if they want, but there is a reason why almost every game in early access is cheaper than the regular price, you are giving money to the developers for a game that is not out (or even finished) so you can alpha-test it. An alpha make sense as an incentive to get a higher tier (and again, only appeals to people that care) or an add-on in kickstarter because the nature of it...

The problem boils down to if kickstarter is a store where you can buy and sell stuff or a site to Crowdfund projects




Spoilers: is not a real problem, is the second one, this is an empirical fact, there is a "What is Kickstarter?" section in the site, highly recommended reading, the second you are using "buying" or "selling", you are wrong. The ToS is pretty exact with its words, you are "pledging" and what you get is a "reward" for supporting a project. Anyone who would feel offended is wrong in a fundamental level about his approach to kickstarter and have a really toxic ideology

Some new meanings to existing words get added to a dictionary (become official additions to the language) simply because too many people embraced the previously unofficial (and possibly wrong) meaning.

Just a comparison.

the majority of the money comes from people that wouldn't care if the game is funded but are persuaded for an unfinished version (again, for almost $100) of it?

No, the majority of the money comes from people who support lower tiers, who wouldn't be terribly disappointed if the game was not funded. Between these people and the existing fanbase, there are people who can be convinced to move up to a higher tier for various rewards or to reach appealing stretch goals.

You claimed people would pay more for a kickstarter than the value of the game and rewards would be later (before release) to see it funded. Some people will do that, but that is not where most of the money comes from, so that is not "reason enough".

And you avoided my point that having alpha access cheaper after a kickstarter devalues that as a reward, and would mean less people pledge, and those who do would be less likely to choose higher tiers. Some of those people who stick with a low tier that wouldn't pay for alpha access, would wait for a cheap pre-order deal if alpha access was included, and even some fans might start looking at the before and after price. If it becomes commonplace, devaluing kickstarter rewards is self defeating in the long term.


Because the game was already founded?

How is that relevant?

Does any product or service ever drop in price just because the company made back their initial investment, etc?


let me turn that question back at you, what exactly would be the justification for charging ANYTHING for an alpha?

Because it was part of kickstarter tier rewards, and it takes time, effort and money to organize an alpha. Larian also isn't a small developer with no in-house QA and isn't trying to sell enough copies to get their game greenlit.


An alpha make sense as an incentive to get a higher tier (and again, only appeals to people that care) or an add-on in kickstarter because the nature of it...

But then suddenly when the kickstarter is over it has no value, and the developer can sell alpha/beta access for cheaper or give it away, and nobody that backed should be annoyed at all? And knowing in advance that some or all of the kickstarter rewards would be cheaper if they waited, everyone would still pledge?



The problem boils down to if kickstarter is a store where you can buy and sell stuff or a site to Crowdfund projects

No, it doesn't. It boils down to a developer placing a certain value on something during a kickstarter, and then before delivering that, setting another value for everyone else who didn't back the kickstarter (you know, when they most needed the money, and got from backers who they should at least pretend to be grateful to and not treat like suckers who paid for something worthless just to help them out).


Spoilers: is not a real problem, is the second one

Condescension is not a great debate tactic.

Hi guys ... I have two question for this debate (but don't want to stick my fingers in this crushing mechanism)... But ... Why complaining about Planteray Annihilation ? And ... what is the meaning of paying an alpha key ? I mean, every companies should count what profit and how they can improve their game through testers ... Some beta tester, on DC may do a true work for free...

For me, the tier are more something to show your support on the team, and kickstarter gets much more harm from an unfinished product (DoubleFine production, for example ... Even if we need to see the end to be sure). And, people buying a key 20 USD and then needed to buy the game 40 are "normal customer", aren't they ?

Why pay for alpha key?
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This is a sticky issue with me (on principal I am one of those folks who will not 'pay' for an alpha key).
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The idea behind a kickstart is to present an idea that requires a certain amount of funding; and those people who are interested in seeing the idea implemented help fund it. The 'pay for alpha' amounts to "I really want this game funded so I am willing to pay a bit more to move the project along" the 'alpha' portion is a method to attach a value to that additional funding. Where it becomes sticky is that if you sell alpha i.e, allow the 'fan' to 'purchased' alpha you can no longer make alpha freely available for testing purposes. The fan wasn't really buying 'alpha' they were expressing their desire to see the product realized by contributing a bit more but the tangible aspect has created a catch-22.
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So in that sense i actually feel it is a mistake to 'sell' alpha and beta access.
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Actually I have a real issue with kickstarts when we talk about tier significantly over pre-order because this is not a joint venture. If you contribute large sums of money towards the product (large >> base cost) you do not share in the revenues if the product is a massive success but you have in fact taken the risk to move the product forward.
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Lets take veronica mars. Individuals contributed a very large amount towards production of this movie (perhaps over contributed relative to the base cost). The excess funds will likely go towards filming in more exotic locations and perhaps stay in nicer accommodations. Assuming the film is well managed (they do not spend beyond the kickstart funds) and is a success ($$$$ is made upon the final product) what happens to these $$$$? Do they go towards more veronica mars movies? Do they get return to the original investors? Does the studio execs receive a larger bonus ?
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Anyway we see the cruft of the situations. Given the above I still have contributed to several kickstarts. Why? I don't know - I think it because either I trust the specific teams I contributed to or I though they had a unique idea that I wanted to see realized (i.e, a few I've contributed include xile, obsidian, Crate (I think everyone else was very small) but I avoided a few that didn't feel right (to me) (I will only mention one of them as this can be quite sticky) doublefine and most of my contributions have amounted to pre-orders or perhaps (in the case of D:OS) marginally more.
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Where planetary annihilization ran into trouble is they carried over their request for funding to product purchase price on steam - for lack of a better way to phrase it the carry over changed the perspective of 'crowd funding' to 'purchase price' (perspective is everything - not the actual $$ but how you view those $$ being spent).
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How does this relate to D:OS - the original poster (I think) out of concern for D:OS wanted to show what would happen if you attempt to use STEAM (store front) as a method to raise additional funds via selling 'kickstart' like add-on. As others (raze) have noted the appropriate method to do this is to sell the add-on via the website and use steam as a distribution method and I suspect that taking that approach would carry no backlash.
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Still I much rather tee-shirts and similar be sold then things like 'alpha' and 'beta' access.
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Crowd funding is a very amusing concept and I think it has cross some grey areas (ala abuse). It is one thing for the starving artist with some talent to indicate that the only way to produce a painting we all want to see is if you help pay his cost of living while he is painting; but it is another thing (imho) for a major studio to request that you fund their films (i.e, they take no risk) but they pocket all profits.
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As a parting note how I personally see a difference between [xxx] Studio and (for example) Obsidian? I believe that if Eternity is successful they will support the game well after release (fixing bug, adding new content, ...) as needed I do not see [xxx] Studio releasing a free film with the excess money they earn.
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[disclaimer: I do not know factually that kickstart will fund 100% of the film production cost; that it will make $$$$ upon release; and what will become of $$$$ if it makes $$$$; but I do believe that most of the kickstarts I've supported (at least the ones I mentioned by name) will attempt to support that product well after release (with in reason).]
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Anyway I think I've said too much and hopefully haven't offended too many people this morning.

*EDITED*

To shorten up what I had typed out before..here we go.

There is a lot of what if, and a lot of needing to be special or privileged....its a game.. If you like it support because you like it...not for bragging rights~ just sayin.

IF and a big if Larian did offer to sell Alpha or Beta access, Who cares? it would be alpha or beta access and that is it. The kick starter funders got other goodies. Which I am 100% sure will not be in the offering. (Do keep in mind all this is all over a post about a different game)

Larian has not given official word what they will be doing.

Here is a big reminder to well everyone, If you do something just to lord it over others..then you do it for the wrong reasons...the more people who venture into Divinity Original sin the better as a whole for players and company...

More players means more user created content, More players also means more money for the company to continue bringing amazing games.

Again, for people not caring (and any middle ground until caring) an unfinished extra expensive version is really that convincing? This group of people that aren't completely uninterested but are not involved in the game neither, but at the same time are persuaded for a $75~90 alpha sounds oddly specific and somehow counter-intuitive.


I didn't, i already pointed out the sales on the other rewards but apparently they didn't counted because "everyone knew" which is weird because...


Because that's your argument

-Would people pledge if everybody knew that you can get the rewards cheaper?
-Well, there is these rewards that are cheaper
-Oh but they don't count because everybody knows that you can get them cheaper
-But that's exactly...
-Alphas are different and if they are sold after for cheaper, everybody would know that you can get them cheaper, and that can't happen, i mean, would people pledge if everybody knew that you can get the rewards cheaper?

Is a circular reasoning.

But let's actually test it.

Outside of name the whatever, let's test the rewards from the original sin kickstarter

>The anthology and divine: Check for cheaper beyond any kind of protest, i hope

>Original sin and dragon commander: They are gonna be cheaper in a steam sale unless we can't have sales anymore because of backers, better stop sales all together to maintain the value of the rewards.

>Soundtrack, dev docs, map and artbook: Because apparently kickstarter is a store and not a place to support projects, we can discard any wish to support larian, so may as well get these in a torrent (hell, this apply to the games too, weird how even if you can get something for free there are still enough people willing to pay for things to make a business out of it)
Physical form? A printer or a cd burner

>The t-shirt, deck and the dice: kinda expensive for what they are, better deals on those sites that let you buy and personalize stuff

And we can argue if some of them really fit or not but a really good part of them does, so anybody pledge? No, nobody did


How is that relevant? we are not talking about a product

That implied that they sold it before and kickstarter is not a sto...

Price implies selli...




I wrote my view before, condescension may not be a great debate tactic but ignoring a valid point because you didn't liked the tone is fallacious, attacking the format instead of the content is an invalid debate tactic

No, you are right, i saw this developer on twitter, giving away keys for his game, how dare him? After people brought his game on release day, he is treating all his fan as suckers, and there this steam summer sale, monsters, all of them, selling their games for cheap, worse than Stalin.

And please don't reply with "but they are games, everybody knows that you can get them cheaper and that's not the case with alphas" because then you are using "is not the common practices" as a argument about why it should be the common practice and is gonna be the same circle .

Oh and nice comment about all the people who pledged for the $5 tier "Ha, they paid for something worthless just to help larian out, lol, suckers" i didn't know that pledges below $10 didn't got the pretense of gratitude, good thing that i pledged more then.

I don't want to fuel the discussion, but I think there is a subtle difference between the alpha/beta access and "physical" rewards which nobody has pointed out so far (unless I am mistaken):

"Phyiscal goods" (by which I also mean a digital distribution of the game etc.) have a life period of many years. Everyone knows that the prices for physical goods will drop eventually and that sometime they also will go on sale. So, everyone makes a decision, whether to pay the full price for the goods now and use them immediately after release or to wait for another two years before purchasing them for just 1/10 of the full price.

Alpha/beta access is in contrast a once-in-a-lifetime event for the game. So, it is kind of weird to put them on sale before the event has even taken place.

Compare it to a film premiere and a DVD release. If I buy a DVD on the first day of its release, I know I will get it much cheaper one year later. If I pay a few hundreds dollars to go to a film premiere, then I expect that the price remains constant until the very day of the event. I pay for the possibility to mingle with the stars, for the whole atmosphere and for the awareness to belong to the "chosen circle" of people who go to the premiere. If, however, it is customary that the premiere tickets always drop in price 1 week before the event and EVERYONE can buy them, then I am likely to be annoyed that I paid so much money for something which is now available at half price and will never bye any premiere tickets anymore at full price but wait until they are offered for cheaper.

Again, for people not caring (and any middle ground until caring) an unfinished extra expensive version is really that convincing?

Based on the fact that people do, in fact, pledge to lower tiers and them move up to higher tiers, or add alpha/beta access as an addon, then I would have to say yes.


I didn't, i already pointed out the sales on the other rewards but apparently they didn't counted because "everyone knew" which is weird because...

You pointed out sales of existing games, offered as add-ons, which could not in any way be considered kickstarter tier rewards.


Is a circular reasoning.

You need to brush up on your reading comprehension.


Original sin and dragon commander: They are gonna be cheaper in a steam sale unless we can't have sales anymore because of backers

Are they going to be significantly cheaper before the games are released?

Are you arguing that pledging for a kickstarter and having something sold for less before you even get it, is the same as buying on release and having it eventually go on sale?


>Soundtrack, dev docs, map and artbook:

You mean things that are commonly bundled with games eventually? That, like the game itself, everyone pledging knows will be cheaper eventually if they wanted to wait?

If they are kickstarter tier rewards, then offering them for free or cheap to others before the game is released is a little rude, but nobody would reasonably expect them to be exclusive.


Because apparently kickstarter is a store and not a place to support projects, we can discard any wish to support larian, so may as well get these in a torrent

Do you consider that a logical argument?


How is that relevant? we are not talking about a product

If the tier rewards have no value once the project is funded, as you propose, why can't you pledge for cheaper after that? When the final stretch goal is meet, you should be able to pledge for the basic tier and get all the rewards, based on your position.


I wrote my view before, condescension may not be a great debate tactic but ignoring a valid point because you didn't liked the tone is fallacious, attacking the format instead of the content is an invalid debate tactic

Neither of which I did.


Oh and nice comment about all the people who pledged for the $5 tier "Ha, they paid for something worthless just to help larian out, lol, suckers"

You completely missed the point. I said developers shouldn't treat kickstarter backers like suckers by giving away kickstarter tier rewards before the game is even out (as you propose they do).

Steam is a plattform whith many kids around.

Whereas kickstartes rather attracts grown ups with bigger money purses.
They can pay, they're more patient and they value stuff more.
Some of them don't even mind waiting more than a year for a good game.


This being said it is easily understand that the Steam community which is used to get their 1 pre-heated Call of Beauty per anno reacts shocked upon laying their eyes on the price.
Most of them won't ever check the reasoning for the price anyways.

I agree with the TO that while having good intentions realeasing a game like that can be a devastating move.

Offer an option like that on your own website.
Make sure people read why they pay twice the price.
Steam is purely for distribution of the finished game.

That, and Call of Modern Battlefield 2.3