Larian Studios
Posted By: Bearhug Damaging loot accidentally by using force - 23/05/14 04:04 PM
I just stuck my nose into the game this week and was wondering about some detail which played in our paper games a role but which seems to be completely ignored in most computer games.
Some might find it overkill but in a game which lays value that you can also bake your own bread it would make sense to have something like this implemented.

What I am talking about is loot in all kind of containers having the chance of being damaged, might that be potion bottles or scrolls in a box hit with an weapon or a fireball or a scroll carried on the body of an target being hit by weapons or being soaked in water or blood.

Maybe it is not part of the beta or it got left out to not make the game less complicated or less frustrating for obtaining loot. When on the other side you can extinguish fires with rain spells and electrocute people with spells standing in puddles it would make sense to have a chance for such loot damage in the game if you want to be consequent about 蝟ェealism in a game world.

I just destroyed every container I found in the tutorial cave which contained any kind of loot and saw no damage at all on the items inside afterwards.

I am not talking about rocket science, just to give loot items a chance value of getting damaged or destroyed when a crate gets pummeled with a heavy weapon or a body gets fried by a fire ball and the scroll or book a person carries might get later burned or unreadable by blood, gore or element effects.

At least it would be more consistent. Why else should I waste investing points into pick pockets or pick locks when the classic 髢テ Hulk, me smash approach gets always the same result without any penalty?
Just a thought

I could also live without such a loot damage chance but I think it would add some consistency by rewarding finesse over brute force as all the loot we pull in (usually) mint condition from legions of dead bodies in all kind of games. I think at least some percent chance for loot damage should be part of the adventurers life for at least notoriously more fragile items like potions and scrolls to reward other, less destructive ways to obtain such items.

What do you think?
What I think? That what you describe here would discourage players to use a lot of combinations/spells/skills/... for that would lower chances of valuable loot. The community won't like that.

And you're completely wrong regarding the lockpicking issue. Without a key, the only way to get in beside lockpicks is (*) hack & slash using primary weapon : this will deteriorate the status of the weapon very rapidly (even if it's a bow) (*) you can use magic spells, but that takes an awful lot of time.

I agree with you 100%, Bearhug. Don't expect to much on the realism/make sense part of this game, the fun is in coop and freedom, not realism.
Posted By: Gyson Re: Damaging loot accidentally by using force - 23/05/14 04:45 PM
I'm not happy that the lockpicking skill investment can be bypassed via pounding a container/door repeatedly with spells (which, unlike weapons, doesn't cause costly durability damage to your equipment).

Damaging items that are inside containers that have been forced open is one way of addressing that, but the problem is it doesn't resolve the issues with forcing open doors.
Originally Posted by Lotrotk
What I think? That what you describe here would discourage players to use a lot of combinations/spells/skills/... for that would lower chances of valuable loot. The community won't like that.

And you're completely wrong regarding the lockpicking issue. Without a key, the only way to get in beside lockpicks is (*) hack & slash using primary weapon : this will deteriorate the status of the weapon very rapidly (even if it's a bow) (*) you can use magic spells, but that takes an awful lot of time.


I had a gut feeling that this was not in because of the community being spoiled by magically extracting every loot in mint condition out of a slain body or crate after a decade of Walmart style looting standard set by Blizzard & Co.

If you have no key and you must use force to open a chest then so be it. That doesn't make it wrong to have at least a chance to break bottles inside.

Please understand, I am not insisting for such a damage system being in the game, I just say it would make sense to have it. Like you said, most would not like it as we just got trained after all those years to get our loot presented on a silver platter and not later present the loot trader rings, chains and scrolls littered with pieces of fingers, messy blood splatters and smelly gore which make the trader maybe even add some fluids of his own to the mix when you pour your loot on his table.

I presume most folks would not pick such a system as option in the game so that it might be not worth to implement it. I would like it but for a few people it might be too much work I am sure.
What a shame.
Originally Posted by Gyson
I'm not happy that the lockpicking skill investment can be bypassed via pounding a container/door repeatedly with spells (which, unlike weapons, doesn't cause costly durability damage to your equipment).

Damaging items that are inside containers that have been forced open is one way of addressing that, but the problem is it doesn't resolve the issues with forcing open doors.


Even the most durable weapon can break suddenly when it hits a hard object just in the right ankle.
So weapons could loose their life span a bit faster when used as key substitutes.

And using magic for such tasks might drain your mana potions quite faster instead for keeping them for more dire situations.
There could be also ever the chance for spell fumbles, soaking the environment with water, starting a fire, attracting unwanted attention from people further away by light, sound or smell.

Maybe such damage options can be later implemented through an optional mod for those who like it as I seriously doubt it could be still build in now that close to release date.
But it surely would be nice to have at least a chance for some possible mod(s).
Posted By: Elwyn Re: Damaging loot accidentally by using force - 23/05/14 05:09 PM
Originally Posted by Gyson
I'm not happy that the lockpicking skill investment can be bypassed via pounding a container/door repeatedly with spells (which, unlike weapons, doesn't cause costly durability damage to your equipment).

Damaging items that are inside containers that have been forced open is one way of addressing that, but the problem is it doesn't resolve the issues with forcing open doors.


As I have already written in another thread, a possible remedy would be to make doors have VERY HIGH resistances for magic damage (a door cannot be poisoned etc.). I hope this would be implemented or at least can be modded in...
Originally Posted by Elwyn
[quote=Gyson]As I have already written in another thread, a possible remedy would be to make doors have VERY HIGH resistances for magic damage (a door cannot be poisoned etc.). I hope this would be implemented or at least can be modded in...


It can at least deflect spell effects to a certain degree back towards the caster, maybe not straight back, think more roughly pool billiard in ankles like e.g. the famous D&D 30feet fireball casted by hasty wizards into a 10by10 feet room, creating a nice image of the caster behind him at the wall of the hallway. smile
I agree that lockpicking still has problems, especially with the scarcity of lockpicks (the soap + key thing is an issue because soap is rare too). I did note the legion camp chests are now locked, although I have not progressed far enough to see if there are other chests around which are now locked that weren't in previous patches.

In the previous lockpicking thread some people called for things to break of you force the chest open, and others complained that if stuff broke, that would be forcing them to spend points into lockpicking. (The alternative suggestion that lockpicking instead granted BONUS items was rejected for the same reasons.)

It is true that no one likes losing loot and items by destroying chests, and that may be one reason why it isn't in.


Originally Posted by Bearhug

And using magic for such tasks might drain your mana potions quite faster instead for keeping them for more dire situations.
There could be also ever the chance for spell fumbles, soaking the environment with water, starting a fire, attracting unwanted attention from people further away by light, sound or smell.


What mana potions? What spell fumbles? I think that guard reaction to attacking property like bashing doors in town is one of the things which may still be in progress.
The legion chests are locked, but you can find at least three of the keys nearby...
Posted By: Gyson Re: Damaging loot accidentally by using force - 23/05/14 07:22 PM
Originally Posted by Stabbey
I agree that lockpicking still has problems, especially with the scarcity of lockpicks (the soap + key thing is an issue because soap is rare too). I did note the legion camp chests are now locked, although I have not progressed far enough to see if there are other chests around which are now locked that weren't in previous patches.

In the previous lockpicking thread some people called for things to break of you force the chest open, and others complained that if stuff broke, that would be forcing them to spend points into lockpicking. (The alternative suggestion that lockpicking instead granted BONUS items was rejected for the same reasons.)

It is true that no one likes losing loot and items by destroying chests, and that may be one reason why it isn't in.

I don't mind specific chests being "lockpicker content only", the same way as specific content can require you to invest in social skills, or perception, or even crafting. However, the game space needs to be laid out with that rather than just suddenly changing all chests (particularly if those chests were added and balanced under the assumption that everyone would have access to them).

Originally Posted by Elwyn
Originally Posted by Gyson
I'm not happy that the lockpicking skill investment can be bypassed via pounding a container/door repeatedly with spells (which, unlike weapons, doesn't cause costly durability damage to your equipment).

Damaging items that are inside containers that have been forced open is one way of addressing that, but the problem is it doesn't resolve the issues with forcing open doors.


As I have already written in another thread, a possible remedy would be to make doors have VERY HIGH resistances for magic damage (a door cannot be poisoned etc.). I hope this would be implemented or at least can be modded in...


I'm fine with doors being highly (or even completely) magic resistant. I know it's not "realistic" to have a door be immune to all types of magical damage, but in this case I favor balance over realism.
I think it could be fun, depending on the loot.
Damaging potions, scrolls, or other fragile things, that sounds logical.
Damaging a warhammer with a fireball feels a bit weird.
Forget about logics, this is a fantasy world.
As I already stated before in the linked threat, I would think that if you bash open a container with magic instead of lockpicking (or the key) you get less loot would be a proper solution to the issue.
Posted By: Tanist Re: Damaging loot accidentally by using force - 24/05/14 06:41 PM
Originally Posted by Bearhug
I just stuck my nose into the game this week and was wondering about some detail which played in our paper games a role but which seems to be completely ignored in most computer games.
Some might find it overkill but in a game which lays value that you can also bake your own bread it would make sense to have something like this implemented.

What I am talking about is loot in all kind of containers having the chance of being damaged, might that be potion bottles or scrolls in a box hit with an weapon or a fireball or a scroll carried on the body of an target being hit by weapons or being soaked in water or blood.

Maybe it is not part of the beta or it got left out to not make the game less complicated or less frustrating for obtaining loot. When on the other side you can extinguish fires with rain spells and electrocute people with spells standing in puddles it would make sense to have a chance for such loot damage in the game if you want to be consequent about 蝟ェealism in a game world.

I just destroyed every container I found in the tutorial cave which contained any kind of loot and saw no damage at all on the items inside afterwards.

I am not talking about rocket science, just to give loot items a chance value of getting damaged or destroyed when a crate gets pummeled with a heavy weapon or a body gets fried by a fire ball and the scroll or book a person carries might get later burned or unreadable by blood, gore or element effects.

At least it would be more consistent. Why else should I waste investing points into pick pockets or pick locks when the classic 髢テ Hulk, me smash approach gets always the same result without any penalty?
Just a thought

I could also live without such a loot damage chance but I think it would add some consistency by rewarding finesse over brute force as all the loot we pull in (usually) mint condition from legions of dead bodies in all kind of games. I think at least some percent chance for loot damage should be part of the adventurers life for at least notoriously more fragile items like potions and scrolls to reward other, less destructive ways to obtain such items.

What do you think?



What you describe exists in many games of old. Problem is, we have traveled into the twilight zone of casual gaming. So, while I would love to see such implementations in games, the fact is, your suggestion would get in the way of many people "enjoying" playing a game where every choice they make is rewarded with sunshine and rainbows.

In fact, your very suggestion is a violation of the code of conduct number 10009 which states that all players will accept and be happy for the looting rewards they encounter. Under such time where the player is not happy of such, they will be reported to the conformity police who will institute conditioning and insure the player through rigorous conformity exercises to which the safety of such violator can not guaranteed.
Posted By: Tanist Re: Damaging loot accidentally by using force - 24/05/14 06:43 PM
Originally Posted by Hassat Hunter
As I already stated before in the linked threat, I would think that if you bash open a container with magic instead of lockpicking (or the key) you get less loot would be a proper solution to the issue.


Makes perfect sense. I agree. Those who do not... well... they identify their "type" by admission.
My suggestion of "an extra roll on the treasure table for using lockpicks/keys on chests" is sounding better and better. Yes, functionally, it's little different than "smashing chests breaks things". (No, I don't really think they'll use this idea.)
Posted By: Gyson Re: Damaging loot accidentally by using force - 24/05/14 07:28 PM
Originally Posted by Stabbey
My suggestion of "an extra roll on the treasure table for using lockpicks/keys on chests" is sounding better and better. Yes, functionally, it's little different than "smashing chests breaks things". (No, I don't really think they'll use this idea.)


I don't really believe a single extra roll on the treasure table is going to justify the use of investing precious points in Lockpicking. Especially when the reward system is so random, you're more likely to get something you don't need.

Originally Posted by Tanist
Originally Posted by Hassat Hunter
As I already stated before in the linked threat, I would think that if you bash open a container with magic instead of lockpicking (or the key) you get less loot would be a proper solution to the issue.


Makes perfect sense. I agree. Those who do not... well... they identify their "type" by admission.


It's not that there's anything wrong with the proposal, it's just that rather than focusing on a solution for chests we should probably be focusing on one that applies to any kind of barrier (a chest, a door, etc).

I'm almost ready to accept that doors and chests should be immune to elemental/spell/summons damage. Balance before "realism", in this case. You either pick the lock, use a key, or you take a ton of durability loss on a weapon by beating the chest/door with it. And damage weapons should sell for *significantly* less money than pristine weapons (that way people aren't relying on throwaway weapons that they can then turn around sell for full price).

What's the worse that happens with that setup, beyond people griping that it's not realistic?

Posted By: Raze Re: Damaging loot accidentally by using force - 24/05/14 09:40 PM

I'd be fine if breaking containers gave less loot, or dropped the durability of any equipment inside, etc. It is a polishing feature, though, which (if implemented) needs to happen after all the loot tables are balanced, and given limited resources as the release approaches, may not be high on the to do list, even if Larian would like to do something like that.
Originally Posted by Hassat Hunter
As I already stated before in the linked threat, I would think that if you bash open a container with magic instead of lockpicking (or the key) you get less loot would be a proper solution to the issue.


I'm with this if they add a key-chain to the game. Right now key management is not good.
Originally Posted by Raze

I'd be fine if breaking containers gave less loot, or dropped the durability of any equipment inside, etc. It is a polishing feature, though, which (if implemented) needs to happen after all the loot tables are balanced, and given limited resources as the release approaches, may not be high on the to do list, even if Larian would like to do something like that.


I'm not sure. Do not forget Larian stated that Divine Divinity scored +10% for the english edition than the german one when it was released, and that only because the english one had a better loot algorithm. Of course, back then this included looting from npcs as well, and not only for the smashing/forcing style.
Posted By: Gyson Re: Damaging loot accidentally by using force - 25/05/14 03:22 PM
Originally Posted by Lotrotk
Originally Posted by Raze

I'd be fine if breaking containers gave less loot, or dropped the durability of any equipment inside, etc. It is a polishing feature, though, which (if implemented) needs to happen after all the loot tables are balanced, and given limited resources as the release approaches, may not be high on the to do list, even if Larian would like to do something like that.


I'm not sure. Do not forget Larian stated that Divine Divinity scored +10% for the english edition than the german one when it was released, and that only because the english one had a better loot algorithm. Of course, back then this included looting from npcs as well, and not only for the smashing/forcing style.


Curious, what were the differences between the two editions?
Posted By: Raze Re: Damaging loot accidentally by using force - 25/05/14 11:31 PM

Other than adjustment to loot, there were also some bug fixes (one mentioned was a pathfinding issue where characters could get hung up on minor obstructions, rather than walk around).
Posted By: Gyson Re: Damaging loot accidentally by using force - 25/05/14 11:53 PM
Doh, I should have clarified. I meant the difference between the two loot systems.
Posted By: Robcat Re: Damaging loot accidentally by using force - 26/05/14 11:14 PM
What's next... needing to put points into combat skills to be good at combat?
Disagree.. don't want loot damaged because as earlier stated.. will worry too much about Aoe in combat messing with containers and vice versa.. keep it as is.
That's part of the fun no?
It's all turnbased anyway, so some extra complexity isn't bad...
Posted By: Rob2Kx Re: Damaging loot accidentally by using force - 03/06/14 05:03 PM
I whole-heartedly agree that lock picking should not be bypassed by bashing. Why would you EVER take lock picking as a skill if all you need to do is carry around a spare axe to bash things?

After reviewing this thread and the original lock picking thread, the counter-arguments I'm seeing basically all say the same thing:

"Smashing chests should have no penalty because I want to spend all my points on combat skills."

This game is clearly not a min-max game, which is one reason why I look forward to its full release. If you want to have a combat only Diablo-style character, well then you should miss some of the non-combat game content (speech paths, items getting broken in chests, etc), because the character I make will be missing some of the combat content (by not being as good at fighting).
Hear hear... good arguments Rob2Kx!
I honestly was pretty surprised when I figured out that breaking a chest does not destroy the contents. I went into the game with that mindset, especially with the very stron Ultima 7 vibes it gave off from the start. I'm more for the damage items if you bash then the make chests and doors invulnerable. Doesn't make sense. But if you do that, then for the love of all that's holy in Rivellon, give us a source of lockpicks.. during our 24 hour romp I found exactly 1 set of lockpicks.. the mandatory ones in the tutorial dungeon. Nobody sells them, the rng gives eveyrthing but those.. same with trap disarm sets btw. If you want us to be rouges, give us the tools, too.
Posted By: Raze Re: Damaging loot accidentally by using force - 04/06/14 07:44 AM
Originally Posted by hunvagy
give us a source of lockpicks..

Check the witchcraft vendor upstairs in the King Crab inn.
Originally Posted by Raze
Originally Posted by hunvagy
give us a source of lockpicks..

Check the witchcraft vendor upstairs in the King Crab inn.


Wait.. there's a vendor up there? Curse me and not talking to every single person laugh Thanks for the tip. Guess that means Madora will have a Nasty Deeds future ahead of her next time.
Since many keys are listed in "ingredients", there could be a recipe to craft lockpicks (i would appreciate that).
It would be fine in my opionion if there would be chests and doors that can only be opened by using the right key, and locations you can't reach with teleport or jump. See, i don't have a problem with bypassing stuff or doing it in a different way, but there has to be some disadvantage to it, or something that equals things out (so if one spends 20mins to solve the puzzle and get the key, and someone else just bruteforces the door/chest, something should punish him for doing so). i am fine with the equipment damage, but damaged loot would also be okay (other games did this). i don't have a problem with different ways to use chests, also "unlock"-spells are fine, but just bashing stuff open with no disadvantage seems wrong.

with chests, what i would like to see is, that using spells or weapon dmg to open it damages the items (so that you can repair them), or has a chance to completely destroy them (so that you get only some leather or cloth scraps instead of armor or robes).

doors, i would say there should just be doors with that high levels that it would take hours to bash them open. most doors are level 10 in cyseal, takes long too, but is still sometimes the easier way to do it.

I would like Lockpicks to also be craftable with a hammer and needle (as in needle and thread).
Posted By: Exca Re: Damaging loot accidentally by using force - 04/06/14 11:10 AM
Originally Posted by MaralDesa
Since many keys are listed in "ingredients", there could be a recipe to craft lockpicks (i would appreciate that).

Don't know for now, but with the last patch you could craft lockpicks by key + soap
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