hello first post here.

so im not sure anymore about if we can have romance between our main characters (if we play single player) or not???

till now i thought that romance was a sure thing with the affinity system, like they said:

"Disagreeing in cooperative dialogs doesn't just influence choice and consequence, it also shapes how well the two protagonists are compatible with one another. Every decision adds to a social stat: what do your heroes' traits tell about their affinity? Will they end up as friends and even lovers, or do they have to learn to live together out of sheer necessity?"

and also here: http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2014/03/05/larian-on-near-closure-divinitys-future-gender-parity/

but i was seeing just now the latest stream of the game released yesterday and someone asked Vincke if the player could have romance he said NO.

so is the romance between the characters a possibility like they first said or not???

this is kind of confusing based on the latest video stream question.

anyway thanks for the attention and if someone could clear this up thanks again.

This was posted quite a while ago, so it is probably outdated now.


Well, from what I remember, devs earlier said that there are two separate systems going on with protagonists. One of them is the affinity aka. traits, which represents whether protagonists are of the same mind on moral choices they encounter in the game. And the second one is affection, which is the "under the hood system" that gathers some parameters from personal banter between protagonists (for example, where one of them praises\scolds the other for being quite a thief, or for good battle skills etc.). And that this second one supposedly will influence some end game outcomes.
But, who knows what's actually going on with these systems now. For example, I remember them saying that affinity will give some sort of bonuses to protagonists, like, those of the same mind will get combat bonuses when they are near each other. But I think it was replaced by leadership talent.
Many things changed over the course of the year, like, now we can make protagonists of the same sex and their backstories are completely different from what they were a year ago.
So, I don't want to be a downer here, but romantic relationships between protagonists may as well have been ditched, if they even were in development at all.

It is still listed under the game features http://www.divinityoriginalsin.com/featuresoverview.php

That shouldn't be outdated?

yup it is still there at the game features. also there is this article from 5 of march of 2014 (just a few months ago):

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2014/03/05/larian-on-near-closure-divinitys-future-gender-parity/

you can read at the end of it (the two last questions) about romance, and again they answered it as if romance was in the game.

so if someone with more knowledge of the game could clear this up that would be nice, after all we have some conflicting info now after that last video stream.

thanks!

One of the reasons I dropped following Pillars was because they chose not to have romances, even though BG2 a game they say they are emulating, did. Not that BG2 romances where not popular (just check the faqs and forums) but it was because the devs just didn't like them.

Hope it's still in this game.

same thing happened to me with pillars.

there is no problem with a game not having romance but their stance on the subject, how they presented themselves about it over the forums was very arrogant for my taste.

anyway back to this game, would be nice to have a word from the developers about it, especially because we have now two conflicting infos about this topic. and as the guy above posted this "feature" is still present on the site about the game's features.

so an official word about it would be nice.

again thanks for the answers!

As I've written before, it quite possibly might be outdated, because that whole page was posted quite some time ago.

it could be.

but its still weird that the article i posted from 5 of march of 2014 (just a few months ago) talks about romance as if its in the game, but the latest video stream says its not!???

heres the article:

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2014/03/05/larian-on-near-closure-divinitys-future-gender-parity/

still hoping for someone from the dev. team the clear this up.

For reference, the question asked during the livestream was:

"Can the player have a romance?"

And the answer given was:

"Not really, it's not a Bioware type of game."

and thats why this is weird.

till now as we can see in the links posted above romance was pretty much in the game (with the affinity system, friends, lovers and all). even an article from this march had romance as if its part of the game.

but after the stream is not in the game anymore??? or is it still there but they are saying to us to not expect it to be a Bioware take on romance???

what is what exactly??? devs, if possible, please clear this up. thanks.

Arcanum, Baldurs Gate 2, Planescape Torment...
All legendary isometric RPG had romances.

Create another great isometric RPG with two main characters opposite gender, saing things as:

" Will they end up as friends and even lovers, or do they have to learn to live together out of sheer necessity? "

And after all that, not include romances...



It takes REAL balls to do something like that



Do you remember how many people wanted return money when finished playing Mass Effect 3?
Authors promised several different endings and all we got was:
https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd....900647089951891_280966690554139787_n.jpg


Unfulfilled promises are in the publishing industry a dangerous thing...

Generally I'm anti dating sims like Mass Effect and the upcoming Dragon Age Inquisition so romance isn't a huge thing for me however in the case of Original Sin it would be very awkward if there was no romance option between the player characters....the very cover of the game implies it and the very words "Original Sin" have heavy cultural implications in a lot of cultures. In the case of Original Sin I'd say some kind of romance theme is appropriate and necessary to the topic of the game.

Now to be absolutely clear: romance does not have to mean sex or nudity and all that.



I do agree such a change can end up being quite explosive here. Mass Effect 3 was hyped as the culmination of consequences to choices and since it was the end of the trilogy it was promised to have heavily branching choices....that's what people bought the game for, it wasn't some side or minor feature but THE reason to buy the game....so finding out that we've been lied to and manipulated and lied to was a huge deal....not only were there no branching choices but all previous choices were meaningless and of no consequence and the ending was completely nonsensical.

In the case of Original Sin romance is extremely heavily implied and was explicitly promised and I'd say a key topic to be addressed in any and all settings that intend to start talking about "Original Sin" no matter how you want to alter the meaning of these words for a fantasy setting.

Well told Darth_Trethon!

I wanted say exactly something like that, but my english was not good enough.
(I'm a great reader, but crappy writer)

Well, maybe it means that there won't be any Bioware types of romances, but maybe there will be some light romance? Like in Planescape: Torment, but even simpler, judging from what we've seen in beta's personal banter between protagonists. I'm not holding my breath though.


Romances are not a very strong side of Obsidian (or they just don't want to waste so much time on fanservice like Bioware), I only somewhat liked them in their NWN2: Mask of the Betrayer, so no need to bash them for not wanting to put them PoE. Besides, from what I've seen of this game, it resembles BG1 more than BG2, and BG1 had no romances.

Sorry but not putting fanservice in a game is like not putting icing on a cake. Why the hell would you not do it? Giving the fans what they want is supposed to be what it's all about. It surely doesn't have to be a BioWare level of relationship building and all that, but just something would be nice.

I also recall on this forum the question coming up about same-sex relationships and that came back as a yes.

so no official answer about this contradiction???

i see that ill have to wait for the game to be released then ask around the net before deciding what to do.

any statement on the subject before the game release would be nice, like a short explanation about it.

thanks.

You can safely buy the game and if it will not have content which was promised, you can legally ask for money back.

If you buy tin with orange soda and inside is lemon soda, it may be similar but not the same. This is called misleading consumers.

The wise manufacturers never promise what they cannot fulfill.

well i dont think we need to go that far...

but as i said before an answer from the devs could easily clear this up.

for now ill wait for an official answer or ill just wait till after the game is released and see what people have to say about this topic.

Something tells me that you will not get an official response...

But I agree that this behavior is from the deves really nasty.

Maybe you should ask this question on twitter @larianstudios, @LarAtLarian. I've seen them answering questions quicker there than here.

never used twitter or have a twitter account (do you even need an account to use it??? no idea really).

anyone who actually use twitter and have the same doubt could you try to ask there to see if we can get an answer. thanks!

so no official word about it... thats sad!

Reading that update[?] snippet and RPS article, if there is no form of relationship story between the protagonists in the game you could say Larian has been leading romance fans on ;-)

It depends on how one defines romance I suppose or what you were expecting and hoping for. We'll see what's what when the game's released, though personally I've never expected any detailed 'romance' content a la Bioware, but instead for the relationship between the two protagonists to be significant by reacting to player choices (arguing while adventuring etc) to help create our own unique stories throughout each playthrough with variation in how the protags get along. Which to my mind seems a hell of a lot better than any bioware-style romances if it's like how I am perceiving it. To what extent the systems Larian have implemented will matter I have no idea, though they seemed pretty proud of it back during the kickstarter.

If it is still possible for the protags to become lovers I wouldn't expect lots of romantic type dialogue and dialogue choices accompanying that (ie not the 'choose the right lines to further the romance' bioware-style), but rather it would probably happen more organically as a result of your game choices presenting that option if the protags are getting along well enough, 'to take it further' as Swen said in that RPS article. I don't expect it to be a focus of the protagonists' relationship - that would undermine the system - or much 'romance' content to speak of, but would expect it to be acknowledged with a bit of dialogue at a few points.

/speculation.

I'm probably not the best person to talk anyway as I haven't been playing the beta so haven't been keeping up with developmental changes in any depth.

If it's any consolation for anyone expecting more I would imagine there would be romance mods down the track as romances are pretty popular.


My personal opinion on the divisive and contentious issue of romances in cRPGs is that I would like character interaction to be explored more broadly than exclusive romantic content allows. I want to explore all different types of character relationships that do not merely pay fan service to my character, but tell the story of my companions in a way that's accessible to everyone, not just those romancing them. I don't want to have to romance a character to get to know them better (get their deeper story content) or become close to them.

That said, I am not vehemently anti-romance either. While I recognize that romances in cRPGs are very difficult to write organically with any depth, I can overlook how trite and 'gamey' they often feel and enjoy them for what they are - abstract flavour. Sometimes very abstract lol. I think resources are generally best spent elsewhere but will not be upset if they're included in a game because I know lots of people really like them. I will be sceptical of that game's character development though, yet at the same time will also hope that the romances will surprise me with quality and depth.

"Reading that update[?] snippet and RPS article, if there is no form of relationship story between the protagonists in the game you could say Larian has been leading romance fans on ;-)"

thats what i hope its not the case... we'll have to wait and see till after the game is released or if any of the devs clear this up here before.

It's a bit silly that such crucial questions will be answered probably few days after release.

It's so simple ...

1) "Among the main characters is possible to establish a romantic relationship."
2) "Among the main characters is not possible to establish a romantic relationship."

Can not some knowledgeable person just pick a number?

Out of curiosity, why is it important to know before the game is released?


I would have thought that it would be better to just play the game and see how the story and protagonists' relationship develop before deciding if you'd even want the characters to pursue a romance if one was possible. It seems like s spoiler to me.

I think the reason the question is being raised is because people were surprised/concerned by Swen's response on the livestream, particularly because it's was contrary to a feature the game has been advertising all this time.

I don't think people want to know specific details, just whether a planned feature has been cut or not.

I don't think Swen's response was necessarily contrary to previous information. They've never talked about the feature in terms of romance as far as I can remember. If I had to guess I'd say nothing's changed.

Genuinely curious about my question, not trying to belittle romance.

I think the expectation comes from this:

Social stats shape inter-player relationships
Disagreeing in cooperative dialogs doesn't just influence choice and consequence, it also shapes how well the two protagonists are compatible with one another. Every decision adds to a social stat: what do your heroes' traits tell about their affinity? Will they end up as friends and even lovers, or do they have to learn to live together out of sheer necessity?

..which was paired with this background image:



..and mixed with this:



..which is actually touched on with this:

RPS: You have the characters holding hands on the main image. Is there romance at the core of the plot, or is that just more of a symbolic kind of thing?

Vincke: You have the affection dials. If you have a high like score, you have the option of taking it further. It happens a few times in the game. If you don't want to, then you'll be very good friends. If you want to, then you'll take it one step further. But the holding hands has nothing to do with romance. You'll have to figure that out for yourself when you're playing the game.

Now, that response indicates the hand-holding has nothing to do with romance. For all we know it's the two of them activating their Wonder Twin powers. But this part of the comment:

"If you have a high like score, you have the option of taking it further. It happens a few times in the game. If you don't want to, then you'll be very good friends. If you want to, then you'll take it one step further."

..pretty much sounds like there is a step beyond "very good friends" that you can take the relationship to. Granted, he could mean "very, very good friends", but I don't think people are reaching too hard here expecting all of that to equal some kind of love-bond potentially existing between the two main characters.

During the livestream, the question asked was:

"Can the player have a romance?"

And the answer given was:

"Not really, it's not a Bioware type of game." .. which is just odd considering the above. But it's totally possible the question and/or answer was taken the wrong way.

Guys,as I understood there will not be deep well writen romances,no sex scenes,I think there will be just simple relationship likewise as it was Divine Divinity between Divine One and Eleanessa

Gyson, are we arguing about something? I can't tell I get where the expectation comes from and why people are concerned. I did previously mention I thought that if there is not some form of relationship story between the protags in the game Larian would have been leading romance fans on.

People's conception of what constitutes romance in game will vary. To my knowledge Larian have never described the protags relationship in terms of romance (have they ever used that word?) but have discussed it in terms of system mechanics and overall story of the game.

When Swen said, 'Not really, it's not a Bioware type of game', it doesn't mean the characters won't have a significant and interesting relationship with the potential for a strong and intimate bond. I would also argue that they do not need to be lovers to have an interesting and profound relationship yet this may also still be possible without being a 'Bioware type of game'.

For Larian to answer the query raised in this thread would require at least a little more context I think than saying yes or no we have romance, if they are to make clear what that means.

Incidentally, do those images necessarily indicate a 'romantic' relationship? Or are holding hands and arguing possible between friends? Also, didn't Larian say that we would have to play the game to discover what the significance of them holding hands was?

I kind of took the twitch question to imply an ongoing relationship, whereas Larian's comments before that were more that at the end of the game there could be a 'happily ever after' result for the 2 main characters.

Haha, no. I was just trying to answer your question thoroughly and send all the information I knew about on the subject. Don't look at that last post as me throwing images in your face, more like me spreading all the collected data I have on the table and saying "what can we make of this?"


Oh, I completely agree. That's what I meant when I said it's possible the question and/or answer given during the livestream is being taken the wrong way.



No, not necessarily. Both the images were simply paired (on web pages) with their respective text I quoted; I mainly provided them for reference.


Yes, that was actually the response given in the text I quoted above, in case it got lost in the spammage.

Rightio.

I'm still curious about why the "nature of the protagonists' relationship" might feel important for someone to know prior to playing the game, if anyone does feel like that and would care to share.

Beyond just wanting to know about the state of the feature I mean.

ouch this is a hard kick ^^

Robcat:

"I'm still curious about why the "nature of the protagonists' relationship" might feel important for someone to know prior to playing the game, if anyone does feel like that and would care to share."

why is it important to you to know why this question is important for other people??? it is, after all, just a simple question of explaining the conflicting info we have here.

anyway i was happy when i saw that the topic had so many answers, thought that maybe we would get some light on the subject here. but the topic has grown in size with everything besides the main point of the topic.

so if nobody knows for sure whats what about this conflicting info till the game is released, let us all be patient and wait a little bit more.

thanks everyone about your input on the subject in question.

Well let's compare Baldur's Gate 1 and Baldur's Gate 2. BG1 has no romance and I know it. BG2 does and I know it. I played BG1 completely differently than I played BG2. BG1 if I felt like disagreeing with Jaz I just did, what difference did it make? But in BG2, when I knew she was a romance option it completely changed how I treated Jaz. It's like when you meet a cute girl in college and how you treat her before you find out she's engaged. When you think she's 'available' you treat her differently ... there are more options. Either way you can be good friends, but in one situation there is an invisible wall. You approach the game the same way based on what you know is available.

Well, I hope that helps you see the difference.

EDITED to get right quote.

"leburns said"

"Well let's compare Baldur's Gate 1 and Baldur's Gate 2..."

i think that you wanted to answer that to this right:

"robcat said:"

"I'm still curious about why the "nature of the protagonists' relationship" might feel important for someone to know prior to playing the game, if anyone does feel like that and would care to share."

Yea, I remember Swen stating somewhere that the players (whether with other protagonist or with companions I don't remember, but most likely with 2nd main char) that through dialog choices and actions throughout the game that they can eventually have the option to "Take the relationship a step further"

Kinda sad if they decided to cut that for some reason.

Romance is completely worthless if you choose the dialogue of more than one protagonist. For the sake of immersion(not feeling like I'm playing the game by myself but with a companion that may disagree or agree with some of my choices on their own), the game should have an option to make one of the protagonist AI controlled. I don't know what they were thinking. Majority of people aren't going to play co-op.

The finished game does have an option to have AI pick the dialog choices for the second protagonist.

The game DOES have an option to make a protagonist AI controlled, for now there's the random option but at launch there will be more options to designate a character type to a protagonist that the AI will play out so what are you blabbering on about?

I don't know how the majority will choose to play, but you do have the option of having one of the two main character's personalities controlled by an AI if you decide to play single-player.

if I remember right there is an option to have an AI for one of the character but it is only for the dialogs. From a personnal point of view, I prefer controlling both of them when I play solo

Don't you know it's always easier to have a relationship with yourself?

Spoken as true bachelor...so take it as you will

well except if you're a schizophrenic ^^

It's not important. I'm just interested in learning more about how other people play RPGs, and it seems like a relevant question to ask to explore the topic at hand. It seems like there's an interesting conversation to be had here about metagaming (at least).


Cheers I had assumed that much, I was more interested in people's different playstyles and why they may prefer foreknowledge of potential relationship outcomes or not.

For example, I wouldn't particularly want to know whether a game has romance options (if it does) as I feel like it would detract from the spontaneity and sense of discovery of my first playthrough, whether I decide to pursue those options or not. I like to go into games hopeful of meeting interesting characters and knowing that a character's story contains a romance arc removes some of the sense of wonder and immersion I experience in a new gameworld - before I become familiar with the game's setting, characters and mechanics. The more I know the more it feels like a game, if you get me, and I like to make as much of that magical sense of wonder and discovery in playing an RPG for the first time as possible. I haven't so much as touched early access

But that is just my preference. On subsequent playthroughs I might plan to play out a certain story for my character (eg create a backstory and character development throughout the game based upon metaknowledge of what happens in the game and how that would make sense for my character.

So I'm naturally interested to hear how other people approach games and why anyone would even want to have the question raised by this thread answered. I have lots of questions I could ask but tried to ask about importance to people as I thought that was a fairly open-ended question inviting discussion.

The real issue here is as usual with Larian one of communication, when they say it isn't a feature in a live-stream 1 week before release, people are obviously gonna be a bit worried. Especially since it is a feature on their feature list.... and was a feature during KS (Not to mention after the PoE thing about romance options people were getting quite paranoid)

Currently I don't care what any character in D:OS has to say, because I know in the end, they are just opportunistic choices with no consequences. So I RP the choices, but I don't care about them in any way. Romance options add that factor, in BG2 you could get into the situation where you romance Jaheira that puts you in mortal combat against her. And don't tell me that wouldn't make you think a long hard while as to what you would do in that particular situation.

Iteresting...

" The main characters relationship is not specifically a love story. You can certainly take it in that direction if you wish, though. Their relationship is defined by two different axes: Affection and Affinity. Affection is how much they like each other, Affinity is how well they agree with each other on moral dilemmas. So they might hate each other, but work well. You aren't going to accidentally end up as your friend's gay lover, it'll be a conscious choice if you go for that. "

(Matt Barton and Swen Vincke video chat)

This seems like a pretty clear acknowledgment of romance.

Edvin:

well thats some new info, thanks for sharing it. do you know when they said what you posted above???

was it before the whole latest video stream that brought up this discussion or after???

Ehm...
Update #9 Apr 8, 2013

2013...well that is quite some time ago...damn...

The fact people could, in theory, create both protagonists with the same gender does complicate the romance content too although if you can't take a hint from the game's box that's one's own fault. Maybe they were afraid of ending up in awkward land if family members played coop and faced the romance discussion(s)? Again, that is peoples' own fault if they can't take a hint from the bloody box and load screen and every other piece of information about the game.....hell, it's in the bloody title...."Original Sin". If they are so concerned about making it family friendly maybe they should put a switch in the character creation portion that asks "Are you afraid of mature content?" and then if people answered yes, maybe all dialogue and every bit of exposed skin(including faces and so on) everywhere could be censored or something.

Heh, I was thinking the same thing. I just tried looking it up..no dice, I'm sure it's there though.

So you connect the term "Original Sin" with romance? Interesting...

Well if your raised in a religious household some will use original sin as the concept to talk to youth about sex....that's how'd it be explained away. Silly as it seems.

Not completely but the cultural association is there in most western cultures....especially when coupled with this:


That's called take a bloody hint and go pout somewhere else.

Pout? Who's pouting? I found it curious that you associated the two terms. You seem to be rather cranky in your posting. Whether it's just today, or you're always this way, I'm not sure I want to know.

No, in all religions that talk about Christ in some form or another. The "Original Sin" story is largely unchanged just like the entire bible is between the fifty trillion groups of bible followers.

I'm aware of that so I altered my og post. I was initially using personal experience to explain, but decided better.

A little newer information:

" Certain in-game events (like levelling up, healing one another, and landing a killing blow in-battle) will occasionally trigger co-op dialogues in which your heroes can explore the trust, friendship, and affinity they, at your discretion, may share.

As the game progresses, the timbre of these dialogues will change depending on how your heroes respond to one another. They may become enemies, business associates, friends, or even lovers depending on how you develop them. "

Update #55 Feb 14, 2014

Ok, I was under the impression that Original Sin refers to the fall from god's grace of humanity when adam was tempted by the devil to rebel and taste the forbidden fruit. This is associated with the development of shame in nudity but I don't see how romance has anything to do with this at all.

Well....Adam, just like Eve, knew that they weren't supposed to touch the apples but they still decided they'd do it together. Adam did an incredibly stupid thing because his partner asked him to and he didn't argue very much against doing it.....when do people do incredibly dumb things for others? Hint: it happens everywhere every single day.

And after they both faced high punishment together they went on to make lots of babies.....soooo....yeah, romance is the key element in dumb decision number one.

....but I believe this topic has been...



Maybe if need be can restart Chat here, more appropriate.

I dunno, I thought it was highly relevant to the topic - discussing whether romance is in the game and what people's expectations of it are. That the meaning of the very title of the game is being claimed to be related to this is pretty significant.

I agree....

"Original Sin" and a couple of humans that certainly look like a couple walking hand in hand on the game's box and every commercial sure checks the cultural checkbox.

Also note the background of the game's main art(also box art, the one poster seen everywhere) looks like a battlefield...looks like chaos and pain and pain and suffering there in their wake.

Well I'm glad we agree about the relevance but I disagree that it's actually connected to romance You're saying that some religious families talk about sex education in terms of the concept of Original Sin. How does that work?

No sweat off my back. Just trying to keep it civil, religion tends to a little personal for some.

But yes I agree there is relevance. I'd love to hear a Devs take on this. , not holding my breath though.

Oh we're all good, I have no interest in disputing religious views, just want to establish how romance is perceived to be connected here. It's pretty damn interesting... what the meaning of the title of the game will turn out to be in the game. Very interesting title. Much more so than the latest Dragon Extreme 4: The Epicness or whatever.

well edvin you are pretty much the only one bringing factual info here, so thanks for sharing it.

anyway... as we can see by what was posted before and even more now with some of the more "recent" info that was brought here too, we can say that that last video stream does have some VERY conflicting info about what they said BEFORE and what they said NOW.

waiting to see how this will turn out...

Well these information can be interpreted in different ways.

Much've heard that the main characters can be lovers.
A couple of times we've heard that there will be no romance.

Lovers without romance?
Perhaps the main heroes can be fuck buddies

I said nothing of sex, I said romance or romantic interest and that is undeniably intertwined in the cultural and religious views of humanity's original sin. Nothing to do with sex ed(which I view more like molestation ed because...well...children and sex shouldn't mix) because if books required age ratings bibles would be Ao.

Well for what it's worth Terra I think there'll be something for romance fans in the game, though expectations will vary.

'Not really, it's not a Bioware type of game' =/= No romance of any form

Personally I'd be very surprised if there wasn't something there though it may not be what people personally expect. I imagine we aren't going to get any new info unless the devs respond, except they're totally flat out now at the absolute crunchiest time in development. Did you try twitter?

I would have hoped Swen would have been a bit more mindful of romance fans when responding to that question in the stream and so clarified his comment further, but I'm more than willing to cut him some slack considering all he has on his plate and what it must be like to answer a gazillion question during a livestream where he's trying to showcase the game and editor as well. The Larian team is probably pretty damn sleep deprived right now and can't be paying attention to everything.

Nonono, can't be....BioWare has dibs on fuck buddy territory because you can fuck with another character in one game and it the next that character turn on your FemShep around all like "So here's my wife and we're having a baby." and this is like a couple months later and everyone's acting all like it's totally normal since they only fucked. I only did one playthrough with a female character and I was all like "So where's the 'Shoot this m********* in the head renegade interrupt', I though this game was about options." But yeah that's BioWare romance classic right there because saying your character can have lots of fuck buddies in the game is not good PR.

Oops sorry Darth, I got your posts confused with Daft's who said, "Well if your raised in a religious household some will use original sin as the concept to talk to youth about sex....that's how'd it be explained away. Silly as it seems." And I wondered how that went.

I'm still not seeing how romance is intertwined in the cultural/religious views of humanity's Original Sin. Though this could be due to my conception of what romance is. The idea that Adam picked the fruit because of his feelings for Eve seems a pretty tenuous connection and hang on... just got it... so after Original Sin they started having sex and begetting everyone. Ok.

Interesting. Well the plot of the game could be something quite unrelated to that part of it but I'd agree that the cultural association is definitely there. The title does raise the question.

Well, romance in Dragon age 2 and whole Mass Effect trilogy was totally crap. (Dragon Age 1 was not so bad).

But remember, Baldur's Gate 2 is also Bioware game.

Just as a thought... Maybe the statements are not contradictory at all.

When Swen mentioned during the last stream that DOS is not a bioware game, maybe he meant that you have no romance options with other NPC's - but you can still have some kind of a relationship going on between your character 1 and your character 2.

Nah, been too long since they stopped making quality games and sold their souls to EA....seven years by my count and 14 years since BG2 so they don't get credit for it anymore. Only the name is left of the BioWare that made BG2. Hell most of the Dragon Age Origins was done and about to be released when they sold to EA who turned around and placed major delays on DAO so that it could launch on consoles too which weren't part of BioWare's original plans.

Yes, that is possible.
Or it also could be an allusion, that we will not see any sex cut-scenes, as it does bioware.

The possibilities are simply too many.

I prefer "Fade to Black" to be honest. Worked fine in BG2, FO1&2, FONV and KotOR1&2, etc. ME1 had a real scene that was tasteful but it scared the crap out of them because of media reaction. The following underwear grinding in DAO, DA2 and ME2&3 were enough to make me vomit.

If the connection that can lead to romance or just a 'Friends with Benefits' option just goes to a Fade to Black, I'm all fine with that.

As long as it's not BioWare clothed sex I'm fine. Fade to black or Witcher style show everything work just fine.

Personally I think The Witcher scenes are a little over the top for something that's just supposed to be a game. I mean I don't mind the scenes per say ... but damn I have the internet for that crap.

Call me old fashioned, but I prefer romance from Baldurs gate 2.
Long and rich dialogue where you can see the emerging relationship.

I don't need any scenes, pictures or fade to black.

Since the story of D:OS connects with the pre-story of DD, I would guess the Original Sin was a tad bit more related to magical forbidden knowledge than romantic. The mage guild was doing some experiments that had Duke Hark Ferol execute their leader and expel the rest from Stormfist castle, which eventually lead them to make a deal with the Lord of Chaos in order to survive and get revenge.

Sorry, life happens. As far a direct connection, I can't recall a direct connection. It was shown to us 2nd graders (some 35yrs ago), we were all born out of sin(sex), and therefore had to be baptized.

I believe the interpretation that O.S. and sex are hand in hand is a product of modern society..check out this
This is modern culture in a nutshell..tell me what Ideas you get from looking at the picture.

Disclaimer: My knowledge on religious matters is not very deep and originates from historical novels and some basic facts told at school. So, please take the following interpretation with the grain of salt.

As far as I can remember the reason why original sin and sex are connected is the following. When Eve offers Adam the apple, they both gain knowledge and recognise that they are both naked (compare 7th verse on http://bibleontheweb.com/bible/ASV/Genesis-3) Hence, a logical conclusion is that they make love to each other and are banished from paradise for this wicked deed (I could imagine that a hint for this interpretation is that before this verse Eve is referred to as a "woman" and after that she is refereed to as a "wife".) Therefore the original sin is the first time Adam and Eve have sex.

Well put, I think I needed another cup o' coffee.

The original sin had nothing to do with sex. The original sin was from the temptation of wanting to be like gods by eating the fruit. Sex had nothing to do with it ... well ... unless you're talking about that movie ...

Now if the Original Sin in this game is the desire to be 'Like God', then it all becomes relevant.

Not sure how this discussion about romance or not got on this train though.

Let's assume that "Original Sin" in the game's name has nothing to do with sex or romance and get back on track shall we.

Where does this idea spout from, interesting concept..but I don't quite understand the connection. Having Original Sin is not god-like, but very mortal. It is one, of many, things that separates us from being gods(according to religious interpretation.)

From wiki
' Adam is recognized by some as having brought death into the world by eating the forbidden fruit. Because of his sin, his descendants will live a mortal life, which will end in death of their bodies'

So it seems to be the opposite, so one could say because we are not god-like, we must work hand-in-hand(ie the game cover) to overcome our defects as mortals.

Not to all 'Sunday School' on the topic, but obviously, whoever taught that was woefully uneducated in the Bible. Sex is not sinful, unless done outside of marriage (fornication/adultery/sodomy). We are all born out of sin - and we do all need to be baptized - but it's passed down from us men, because of the failure of Adam. It has nothing to do with sex, and everything to do with the sinful nature of Adam we've inherited. This is the reason Jesus was born without sin, because he had no earthly father to pass sin onto him.



The concept of being "God-like" is that they desired to know the difference between good and evil. Prior to eating the fruit, they did not know what evil was. Afterwards, their eyes were opened. Also, there's no reason to believe they were immortal in the garden of Eden, as God explicitly expelled them so that they wouldn't eat from the tree of life, and become immortal.

Okay, church lesson is over for today. You may now proceed to your regularly scheduled discussion.

Thankyou Father Jito463

I'm not catholic.....nor am I a pastor. Simply someone who loves to study the Bible.

Figured as much, mostly poking fun, I always appreciate peoples thoughts regardless of whether not we agree/disagree.

A bit of a simplification. In his first letter to the Corinthians, Paul portrayed sex as the less moral of the two options when compared to chastity, but acknowledged that marital sex was preferable to "burning." This premise colored much of Catholicism's historical viewpoint of sex and it wouldn't be unfair to say there were long periods where it was viewed as a necessary evil. Of course modern Catholics are likely to be much more optimistic, and part of what separated many protestants from early/mid Catholics was that some of the former had more positive interpretations of marital sex. Protestant writer John Milton, for example, portrays the sexual relationship between Adam and Eve in Paradise Lost to be both wholesome and beautiful.

I do largely agree with everything else you posted, though. The Fall and original sin really have very little to do with sexuality, and I would argue the mainstream perception of the terms is cognizant of that.

daft73 covers it, but it is from the Bible. They desired the fruit as it would allow them to know the difference between good and evil, thus making them like God in that aspect. Obviously that did't work out like they thought it would.

Again, if this game is about the basis of a man or men, who do something to 'be like a god', then the game name becomes relevant to the biblical original sin.

Sex between Adam and Eve, before or after the fall of man, was never sinful as they were in fact "made for each other" and it was always the intent that they would reproduce.

Please, no more Bible...

What about focus the debate on what means "Original Sin" in Divine Divinity world, instead what it means for us?

Although it will still be off-topic, but it will be bearable.

Yeah, I absolutely hate with a passion all things related to any religious text and any form of religion....I would rather worship a zombie, half-fairy unicorn that poops candy....or chocolate cake, that's also awesome. I simply wanted to point out that all the cultural connections and implications have been strongly established by Larian to completely back out and sweep the romance option completely under the rug. A game like DOS I can love because within the fictional world they create everything is real, provable and tangible and no character has to worship any nonsense.

There're a few bits from the earliest announcements of DOS that might give us a clue:

You find the Bible to be unbearable? It's the keystone of the western canon, one of the most enduring and iconic texts that directly or indirectly influences an overwhelming percentage of works written in the western world. What you do or don't feel about its spiritual messages and teachings is your own business and you're entitled to it, but to my eyes this has been a strictly literary and historical discussion of the Bible. And while the topic of original sin might not be in line with the intent of *this thread*, a serious talk about the idea of original sin as it relates to this game that doesn't discuss its Biblical roots is intellectually disingenuous and is likely to go nowhere. Because I find it very unlikely that Larian decided to invoke the idea of original sin without expecting it to allude to the Bible.

Hahahaha this is precious.....I'd tell you a few things I think about this iconic text of western cannon but 95% would be censored.

Finally, the useful information!

By the way, does anyone know, how progresses timeline?

1) Dragon Comander
2) Original Sin
3) Divine Divinity
4) Beyond Divinity
5) Divini Divinity 2

???

Yes, this is the timeline: For all the exact dates there is some information here:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/larianstudios/divinity-original-sin/posts/452503

bible... like... really!?

lets just remember:

the topic began with... so is there romance or not in the game???

and of course we got no official answer. at least the game is out next week, then we will know for sure.

With respect, I'd rather hear it from someone who understands Gensis

I think it started with "Is there romance?". Then we added sex. Then we discussed could Original Sin mean sex. So we discussed what the Original Sin was. Course we were half way to Chattanooga by then.

Would still like to have clarified the supposed contradictions between the interview and all the 'game features' we have.

As far as Larian deliberately tying some of the cultural meaning to Original Sin and being very much aware of what they are invoking by using this title AND the romantic implications of everything they've shown there's this bit here:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/larianstudios/divinity-original-sin/posts?page=3



At this point there's not much more to say on this topic other than: Larian had better not back away and scrap all romance options and content.

Oh I understand genesis....you may deny it to the day you die and of course I expect nothing less from bible heads than to claim that anyone who disagrees with them understands nothing but the fact is I very much understand genesis.

I'm neither any sort of Christian or a "Bible head." Regardless, your protest has been duly noted and duly disregarded. If you have anything to say that isn't drenched in self-righteous contempt and misconception, I'd be happy to hear it. Until then, this conversation's over.

If you want to continue in this conversation, please use PM.
I dare to claim that for most people it is not that interesting as for you.

That image says it all.

There is no love story. There is a love story if you want to go in that direction. The game has no romance. Your companion can be your friend or lover.

STOP CONTRADICTING YOURSELVES, Larian.

It's like 50% hates romance, but the other half wanted it. Frustrating.

Speculation: The Thread

Maybe, just maybe human relationships are much more complex then just "friends", just "lovers", maybe and this might sound so weird: maybe relationships can be everything and none of the mentioned as they progress over time. How about not thinking binary?

really? i mean ... really?

Ewww video game romance, aka one of the worst idea of the industry in the last decades.
Thanks bioware for teaching far nerds they can date virtual bimbos by playing rpgs.

This is an old psychological trick.

If this topic will ever read any of devs, this picture may be shock big enough to give us the answer.

It's easy to ignore long articles, but the images will dig into memory.

It is a game that isn't about romance, it just may (or may not) be something that's added. I never expected a lot from it, certainly not anything that's complex. Even actual 'life sims' can't get romance right. Heck most can't get it right in real life.

oh..oh... i thought it was taking too long for this kind of post to appear here.

anyway... as usual, people like to talk about self-experience... righ!?

thanks for sharing your life experience with us. its was meaningful no doubt.

love is for the weak! power is all that matters!

Yeah I know, it was amazing wasn't it, a lengthy civil discussion about game romance without people resorting to inflammatory hyperbole and ad hominem.

I share concerns about romance in cRPGs that I voiced in my first post ITT, but hopefully I did so in a respectful and constructive manner, while also displaying that I can find merit in both sides of the fence so to speak, since people insist on putting up fences.

Unless you have the power to charm ...

Pretty sure some romance mods could be made. I am curious just how deep the editor is and to what extent it will be possible to define behaviors according to time/events and other variables.

It's more than just an editor it's the very tool Larian used to create the game....what it can do is....well...everything Larian did in creating the game and then some things they haven't done. You can do anything and everything with it.

But the romance is not something that should be a mod. It was something that was specifically promised and advertised constantly since the game was first introduced.

Right, but I have some special romances and individuals in mind in addition to whatever Larian might serve up.
Specifically I will need to be able to add and control new traits/stats based on interaction with environment, other characters, items and simply doing stuff. Will need to implement a few new skills and also import new 3d models.

Preferably it will also be possible to design entirely new environments with new textures and objects.

If we truly have all the options available to use, that they did while making the game - and no crippling - that would be awesome. They're not going to release the game version they use while demonstrating the game, for example. So I am cautiously optimistic that's the only thing limited.

Well they did say this is the tool they are using to make the game and in the latest stream they also said we can load the main game in it and change things so it seems legit so far, especially if you see what they've done with it during this last stream. I don't think they're lying.

Good god, this thread is already seven pages long and still no response from the devs? I'm beginning to think that contradictions in their statements mean that romance in the game shares the same history of several reiterations as leveling up system. Like, maybe they were planned at the beginning, but later removed or changed into some other system.
Still, I see that romance feature is in high demand here as well, as it is sort of expected now from any western rpg, big thanks to BioWare . So it would be a shame if this demand is not met in D:OS. No comments from devs is kinda baffling, though . This is not a crazy BioWare forum, devs, there won't be any angry screams about cancelling preorders or other such nonsense if you say there are no romances in the game. And to anyone who might do this I can only say this - not playing such a fun game like D:OS just because there are no romances is the silliest reason you could possibly name, get over yourself.

Especially after that nice image from Edvin

I would rather say that Larians are in the middle of a final stretch right now and have no time to thoroughly read 7 pages

No need to read it all, original post says it all. But I get what you're saying, they're too busy now. I've read that there's gonna be another stream on 26th, maybe someone here should ask the devs about romances again and more thoroughly.

I wouldn't mind if there was no romance if they didn't very specifically promise there would be romance and didn't go miles out of their way to ensure the very title of the game and every piece of artwork related to the game didn't specifically and extremely strongly imply romance. After all that to release the game without any romance options in it would be a huge deal because it's no just another feature but something they managed to present as something of a central theme of the game. It's fine to say "there are no romances" but after promising it so many times and implying it at every chance they had it's not an option anymore to turn around and say "we're not doing it" without any explanation and it's not even something that could be excused anymore. Sure there shouldn't be any major drama or cancelled preorders or cries for refunds but it would sure put a very sour note over the entire game release and experience.

Or maybe they want people to go into the game without certain expectations. Or maybe they are planning to respond but haven't found the time to do so yet. Or maybe they have wanted to think about how to explain the plot and mechanics without spoilers or angering either the romance fans or haters. Or maybe they haven't actually checked this particular thread? etc etc

FWIW I just watched the spoiler free version of the stream that someone made - personally it seemed like Swen just doesn't consider what's in this game to be a 'romance' as he understands it is commonly perceived. It seems clear there is some 'romantic' type content otherwise he wouldn't have done the ahhhh (thinking pause) or qualified his statement with 'not really'. To me this is perfectly consistent with all previously known information and I wouldn't be concerned. His reply does not indicate to me that anything has changed since those updates or press articles, though of course this still leaves us at square one of some people wanting confirmation.

/speculation

I disagree insofar as the artwork does not imply romance to me (if romance is taken to mean a sexual relationship); neither does the game's title. I fail to see how it was promoted as a central theme of the game. I agree it would not be good to remove the feature of 'being able to end up as lovers' without a good explanation, as that would be dishonest and misleading after previous statements. However, as I've said I doubt this is actually the case as Swen's stream statement is not necessarily contradictory to known information.



* Edit to add that I certainly wouldn't define romance in terms of a sexual relationship and that indeed, the definition (as definitions are wont to do) or conception of romance is further confusing the issue here.

Quite a while ago I remember asking a question in some thread about the title and its connection to the main characters - whether it implied similarities to the "original sin" story in our common perception of it from the Bible. And they said is it's not the case. So the title doesn't promote any romances between main characters, but something else. The artwork is mildly suggestive, sure, but only mildly.

I don't define romance as sex either nor did I ever say the game must contain sex but everything about the title and every piece of artwork most definitely implies romance. Do I really need to say all this crap again? The pictures, the hand holding is an absolute signal, even the bloody coloring of the box art which makes the female's lips flash red on an otherwise black and white background, the biblical story of original sin they are deliberately deliberately hinting at in more ways than I can count. You can "disagree" all you bloody want but it changes as much as me "disagreeing" that the bloody sky is blue. Let me post this yet again:

Doesn't matter what they say, they most certainly invited association deliberately and in every way they could. Just look at the bloody picture I posted above, posted by Larian themselves. They sure have a trend of contradicting themselves but they most definitely created the association and in a very deliberate manner.

The title, as I've mentioned before, doesn't imply romance, not between main chars anyway. As for the artwork and main page feature list - how old are they? Feature list, I think, was made at the time when main chars had their old backgrounds. Now they have completely new ones and can even be of the same gender. Same gender "original sin" doesn't quite fit into common perception, no?

That picture can just be an unrelated artwork card. I've seen artwork of other games characters dressing up a Christmas pine tree. Doesn't mean it actually happens somewhere in the game.

Doesn't matter what they intend with the story because they very much intend to sell the perception of the game at the very least having a romance option. You have to be blind and stupid to not see the very deliberate connections they are making with western culture. And if you really want to talk about older artwork for original sin, the female used to wear A LOT less clothes, with some more boobage showing(which is all fine with me) but it was due to massive player complaints they finally put some clothes on her. If you are seriously trying to argue they weren't intending to sell the idea of sex/romance you are fooling yourself.

Once again, for the billionth freaking time: it doesn't matter what they intend to put in the game, they are very deliberately creating certain perceptions and cultural associations....that creates expectations and while nobody expects apples to play a major role in the game the stage is most definitely set for romances to be expected.

I don't see how the eternal bikini armor vs. full plate discussion has anything to do with romances in D:OS. There are alot of games out there with half-dressed women running around without any romances. It's all done just to attract the main audience - teenage male one.

You know, this art could just promote that this game has a co-op and that you're gonna have two main playable characters.

If my character cannot dress in a platemail bikini, I will be so disappointed!

Are you seriously blind, in denial or just stupid? I'm not even trying to insult....I'm plain curious. If you seriously fail to notice the shape of those breasts and how overly accentuated they are you've got severe freaking issues. They make a point of having a valley the size of the grand canyon in between those boobs and my other character is holding hands with that grand canyon of boobage....not that I'm complaining. Not to mention the highly sexual coloring to bring attention to the special pats....with a double underline above and bellow the boobs just above the belly button and then the lips. Promoting coop my ass.

Riight. I'm not blind, just too old to get swayed by some cheap cleavage on the cover, which has nothing to do with romances, btw. And there's no need to call me names and get angry. You're just speculating, I'm just speculating. We can do this all day and not get any closer to the answer to the op question. That is, until the devs finally come swooping in, or when we'll finally play the game and see for ourselves.

im following this topic but i dont usually post now because we are on the territory of personal opinion.

BUT... "Are you seriously blind, in denial or just stupid?"... stupid... was that really necessary???

the pictures that you guys are talking about so much...well... they can be interpreted both ways ok.

lets try to keep this civil right!?

I think her cleavage is rather modest. Now, the horn on the guy's shoulder plate, talk about racking up bills when visiting glassware boutiques.

I wasn't angry at all, of course you might not be used to being called stupid in calm manner but I'm just curious. Nothing else. If you seriously can't see the obvious plain as daylight in front of your eyes there's definitely a problem. This picture could serve as an awesome sexuality test for guys. "What do you see....are you thinking this is promoting coop and letting you can control two characters? If the answer is yes I have bad news."

No I'm not angry nor am I attacking you in any way, I'm just laughing right now.

I'll try to summarize the entire contents of the topic:



1) All images and texts that Larian during the development of Original Sin maded, practically promised that game will have romance.

2) In a recent video chat, (conveniently, short time before the release) it was denied.

3) We are angry and we want what was promised!


The problem is not what it means "Original Sin" or whether the game should have a romance.
Larian should not promise what did not plan to comply!

I'm sorry Darth if I've upset you (judging by your swearing). And I in no way meant to imply that you define romance as sexual by nature (this was the opposite of my intention). That comment was simply my effort to shed some light on how people's perceptions of what the artwork, title and definition of romance itself means will vary, and thus their implications are not some indisputable fact. It was also meant to raise the question of just what it is that people are expecting when they say 'romance' has been advertised. It was not a personal comment directed at you though I see how it could be interpreted that way, I could have been clearer in that regard.

And granted my last post was pretty circular in that it was more just asserting my point of view than substantiating it. I did say the art or title doesn't imply romance to ME, and had hoped that my mere disagreement would be pause for thought about what may be actually implied.

I don't believe the artwork or title necessarily implies romance at all.

Holding hands does not have to be a romantic gesture as it could be indicative of friendship, a familial bond, a begrudging cooperation to achieve a certain goal or some other example of complex human relationships. As Swen says in the RPS article, "..the holding hands has nothing to do with romance. You'll have to figure that out for yourself when you're playing the game."

I also don't think that red lipstick or showing skin on the female protagonist has to have anything to do with a romantic relationship with her male counterpart. Scarlett may enjoy wearing them, or may be trying to make herself attractive for other reasons than to appeal to Roderick. Or the artist may have just thought it looked hot/good. Are you really arguing that her lipstick and exposed skin show that she is in, or desires a romantic relationship?

The title, as previously discussed ITT, may mean something very different to the biblical and cultural interpretations of humanity's original sin, regardless of how strongly one associates defying god with adam and eve's subsequent change in relationship. It would be presumptuous to assume that the title implies romance in the game, considering the many story directions it could be taken that are only limited by our imagination. The title is interesting to me precisely because of the complexity of the cultural associations and because I doubt the writers are aiming for something so trite as to make the game correlate exactly to common interpretations of its cultural meaning.


I think they are deliberately playing with perceptions and cultural associations for narrative purposes, which is a very different thing and a common literary device. Of course we will understand their full intent better once we have played the game.




*Edited for punctuation translating from a word doc.

My interpretation is more...

1) The title and some images shown during development are suggestive of the potential for romance in the game. More substantially, some statements were made in updates and a press article that declared there would be romance in the game (if romance is taken to mean the ability to have an interactive relationship between the protagonists that may end up as lovers according to player choices).

2) In a recent video chat a confusing and potentially/seemingly contradictory statement was made that casts this in doubt.

3) Some people are concerned and would like clarification.


An interesting thread resulted but that's all so far...

I'm not upset, Scarlet isn't just accidentally provocative beyond reason.....if it was just on thing maybe Larian could play ignorance....but it's not, it's not just the title that accidentally happens to feature a man and a woman who accidentally happen to be holding hands and accidentally happen to walk through chaos and it all accidentally happens to have a billion shades of sexual innuendos while it all so conveniently but by complete accident happens to parallel a major story of a core belief in western culture in every way without missing one detail....etc. etc. etc. There's too many accidents there for them to be accidents.

Next up Larian need to thread carefully because they explicitly promised something they've implicitly promised a hundred times more. And it being for narrative purposes that are unknown to us can blow up in their faces big time....the last thing they need to do is play "AHA!! I got you!!" with specific promises. The absolute worst thing they need to do is play bait and switch with a feature taunted, teased and promised many times over. That would be like BioWare trying to excuse their Mass Effect 3 ending as artistic vision and choice after they broke a very established promise made many times over.....they lied and their reasons and excuses sounded like big steaming piles of bull****.

You keep trying to excuse every separate piece by itself and that might work if there weren't so many of them. It's like finding pieces of a dead horse and you argue that the leg there could be of a donkey and maybe the tail is from a cow but how many pieces need to be found before it's undeniably a horse? We've most definitely found the bloody head too. And yes, the title too has got everything to do with all of it....it's just too convenient and matched by too many accidents.

Anyone can twist nonsense all day every day and talk about a pile of dirt like a grand miracle of nature and so on and so fourth but nobody will be fooled because the bottom line is that bull**** is bull****.

Oh, good. Well, we'll have to agree to disagree as I think you're exaggerating the situation and these 'implications'. All I hope for is that you can see that I (and potentially others) don't necessarily see the same extent or significance of romantic implications you do in the art and title. If it wasn't for the fact that Larian explicitly wrote about the potential to be lovers (on a couple of occasions, not a hundred) I wouldn't be expecting any 'romance' at all as it is commonly understood. Make of that what you will.

I agree that Larian will need to tread carefully to avoid a -1 honesty and -2 accountability to their reputation, if they indeed have removed this feature; as they did say it would be in the game, regardless of individual expectations about how it may be implemented. Hell, that was what got me to post ITT in the first place. I greatly respect Larian's honesty and transparency and so would call them out on it if it turns out to be the case, even if I don't particularly want romance in the game. I just really doubt it has been cut for the reasons I've previously described.

What I make of it? At the absolute best I think you're ignoring a mountain because it all looks like dirt to you.....except it's kind of big and kind of a pain to sweep under the rug of "if they hadn't said it I'd totally never see any of it"....what with all the boulders and the trees and the animals, not to mention the insects.....but it's challenge accepted in your eyes because by the gods you'll make it all fit under the door rug if it's the last thing you do.

I'm not exaggerating one bit...if I had to point to one painting that best described the biblical story of Original Sin this would be it....that's right this, not the silly pictures of naked people sharing apples....those actually look kind of normal, lovers share all sorts of food in every conceivable way...that's just people being people. But this...this has all the makings of Original Sin...a man and a woman walking hand in hand through ruin and chaos with steely looks of determination and an air of seriousness and gravity that would perfectly fit an act of rebellion that is sure to be met with severe and unavoidable punishment. The colors are gone, everything is bleak except the taint....the highly suggestive red that symbolizes both blood and passion. A picture that evokes feelings that are easy to understand, romantic love and attachment is strong beyond reason or logical sense and a lot of people not only can do a lot of extremely dumb things in the name of because they're willing to risk it all for the slightest chance of success.

I absolutely agree.
That image directly evokes something like:
" Whatever happens, we'll be together forever. "

The beauty of art - that people can derive different and multiple interpretations from it. Why assume that one interpretation is not only 'correct' (which assumes a specific intent of the artist) but also has specific implications for the game?

I don't deny that you can find those romantic connotations in the art posted ITT, I have merely asserted that I don't see the same significance as you and that they don't necessarily imply romance will be in the game. I don't see this as a contentious view and I don't understand why you do. I tried to clearly state some of my reasoning 3 posts ago which you have dismissed as the proverbial not seeing the forest for the trees.

We obviously have different perspectives. I haven't tried to belittle yours, call you names or say you are speaking nonsense. I would hope that I (and others) could ask for the same.

We could keep arguing I'm sure. How about we agree that I find your perspective limited and you think I'm talking nonsense and leave it at that.

You are welcome to the last rebuttal.

I'm going to play with my best friend (we're both male irl but I play female character). Romance between our characters would be awkward lol.

Did you know you can play as two males or two females if you want, any romance strictly optional.

Hey Darth, I know I proposed we let things rest but I came up with a way to explain my point of view, that doesn't negate yours and hopefully makes sense to you

Let me put it this way. I don't think anyone would argue that based solely upon analysis of the artwork and title of the game, we could empirically know that romance is in the game. With no other information (eg those update and article quotes) it is a matter of probability, no matter how high or low. It is an assumption, no matter how safe or suspect. While it may be impossible to accurately quantify that probability (not least for the reasons I have been arguing: chiefly that our interpretations of the artwork, title and their connotations will vary and that multiple meanings can be derived from them) I think it fair to say that you consider it more probable than I do. And that's fine.

However, further complicating our argument is the definition of romance. What is romance? The broader the definition we accept the more probable the assumption. For example if it excludes a parameter such as sex the probability increases. If we take a very broad definition such as a feeling of profound intimacy between two people, it becomes highly likely even without the artwork, title or even Larian's statements, as this would be a likely possibility in any story featuring two protagonists that must work together in an interesting cRPG plot.

When I said that based solely on the artwork and title I wouldn't expect any romance as it is commonly understood, I mean that the common conception people have of romance is that it includes a sexual component (I dislike that definition but that is another argument entirely). So I am saying that based solely on the artwork and title, I would not expect the protagonists to have the option to have implied sex in the game, though I would still expect there to be an interesting and potentially intimate relationship.

Can you now see my perspective? I don't refute that the implications and connotations you see in the art and title are there (except your claim relating lipstick and showing skin to romance; though perhaps having elaborated my conception of romance this contention makes more sense to you now in context), I simply disagree with the extent to which they support the overall assumption. Further, I would prefer not to make an assumption at all, especially considering that romantic connotations are far from the only meanings that can be interpreted from the art & title, and that I prefer to take a broad definition of romance that makes speculating about its inclusion seem pointless to me anyway (personally).

My argument with you is essentially that I am challenging how safe you hold this assumption to be, not that you are unreasonable to hold it.

Yet we are also arguing somewhat of a moot point as we both agree in our conclusion that Larian have created an expectation of romance in the game. We need go no further than the quoted updates and RPS article for that. I would however hope that you can now see where I'm coming from, even if we still disagree about the extent of the ramifications of the art and title.

Well, regardless of what's in the game, my two PC are totally going to bang.

But pictures notwithstanding, the very deliberate written evidence saying that there is friendship and possibly more, is really all the evidence I need to jump on the assumption that romance was promised to be in the game, or at least sex.

What I am saying is very very simple....Larian intentionally instigated these perceptions about the game, it's part of how they market the game and target their audience. It's VERY safe to say that delivering on the promise of romance is critical for them.....they've made it a critical feature that has to be there should anyone choose to go looking for it in some form or another. They can't just come out and say we assumed wrong because they DELIBERATELY instigated and created those assumptions on purpose. There will be hell if there is no romance in the game.....and it won't be me rising it. Nobody will complain if there's no sex or it the screen goes black or whatever but defining romance is VERY simple....a stated sentiment between the characters that reoccurs at least a couple of times.....given they said they've got like 20 endings iirc it should probably have an influence on the ending too since the end of the journey is all important. You can't just say "well they fought together so that's romance" because again, that's plain bull****.

Larian have painted themselves in a corner regarding romance and not because of the verbal promises there would be romance and it doesn't matter what other interpretations can be derived from the artwork and title and so on because the obvious interpretation just about jumps out and smacks you in the head and that has to be delivered upon. The obvious is obvious is obvious and there's no way out of it.

Hey, I'm calling my starter pair of heroes Ragnar & Lagertha. And mark my words, there will be dancing!

So still no official response to this thread?

Its funny to think that the amount of hours spend in responses to this thread would imo be more than enough to make romances possible

How can all of you be missing the touching romance, complete with obvious public displays of affection included in the beta area? How can you overlook Lady Annah and Baron Diederik? Their love is certainly not just skin deep....

I was more curious as to what that soldier was going to do with that female Orc. Her love was magical, but his was real. Could have been a real love affair there ... if she hadn't of slipped and fell all over my sword.

But, I am more interested in what is possible for my PC's of course. (I swear it still feels weird having two PCs).

At this point Darth I think I'll just leave it up to people's reading comprehension skills to make up their own minds, as I am tired of you summarising my arguments into caricatures and dismissing them as bull****. Hopefully people can find something of value in both our perspectives.

Just imagine it like a bioware game with an additional companion from the start.

Just so long as you mean classic Bioware, not EABioware.

Right, Dragon Age and backwards.
Someone should send Hawke to weed out the corruption at EA

I'm not saying they can't play the "you just assumed wrong" game but I am saying they'd have to be incredibly stupid because it's too obvious they created the perception and assumption which would most definitely qualify as deception. It comes down to what people expect and want and not delivering on desires and expectations they created themselves would be underhanded. Is that so hard to understand? You can describe any relationship as "interesting and potentially intimate" but unless it's clear that it's romantic it would be pointless. Oh the characters shared an interesting joke and they like both smiled and they depended on each other for so long to survive in battle so that's potentially intimate....sure....but the same could be said about the mindless shooty protagonists of Call Of Gears Warfare featuring Shooty McShooty so trying to make an argument that would in any way make a believable argument that there might be some romantic connection will leave people wondering what you've been smoking.

It's not my intention to smash your arguments into caricatures but I'm just not seeing how you could think Larian can try to pass an argument for "Well it's interesting and potentially intimate" in an attempt to excuse blatant lack of romance without sounding like they're pulling at straws in an attempt to deceive and excuse their failure to deliver on something they made out to be a very important feature. The perfect example that comes to mind is BioWare promising great variety of endings that took player choices seriously in Mass Effect 3 and then turning around and trying to excuse the absence of those as "artistic vision" and trying to twist arguments about how our choices technically mattered and how it's all about the journey, not the destination and on and on and on.....but none of that for one second excused the fact that they promised something to the point it became an absolutely central reason to buy the game and then delivered the complete opposite. People were looking at them like....are you f****** kidding me? They expect us to accept arguments of "artistic vision", "artistic integrity" and technical shenanigans as excuses? That IS bull**** and I'm sorry if you're feeling offended but there really is no better way to put it than bull****.

It was never made out to be a very important feature. It was mentioned in passing when describing the affinity / affection tracking, and in response to direct questions about romance. And for direct questions about the cover art of them holding hands, they specifically said that was not romantic.

A Christmas graphic including mistletoe (and specifically not a kiss, BTW) and the use of the most popular lipstick colour does not confirm romance. A graphic of a woman with cleavage holding hands does not prove romance. Contrary to your opinion, a woman can hold hands with friends, relatives or colleges regardless of their choice of attire or breast size.

Ok It happens that sometimes people just can't make themselves understood to each other. It's pretty funny in this case as we do agree that Larian have created the expectation of romance. I also agree it would be bull**** (aka straight up dishonest) to claim people misinterpreted the comments about becoming lovers. Or to brush potential complaints off as people being wrong to assume some form of romantic content (however you might define romance) in the game. But that presupposes that Larian have indeed cut all forms of romantic content - so let's not jump to conclusions as the game hasn't released yet.

Our point of contention is that I consider the artwork (3 pieces ITT) and title by themselves to be insufficient evidence to conclude that romance (as commonly understood to include a sexual component resulting from a series of romantic dialogue choices) is in the game.

And to repeat myself, this is where our argument gets confusing... because yes, definitions are crucially important in arguments, which is the reason why academic articles will begin by defining their terms yes? Concepts like romance and love are notoriously malleable and open to varied interpretation - hence my astonishment that you seem to find it hard to believe I can look at the artwork/cover/title to see and expect something different from another person. Or that a romantic interpretation is somehow so strong and obvious as to indicate the extent of the protagonists intimacy.

As it is I'm left wondering what you are smoking (Though this is not a very helpful thing to say is it? Ie it is insubstantial and inconsequential to the argument. As is claiming I am arguing that the sky is not blue, or making a mountain into some dirt, or that I am trying to sweep something under the rug, or arguing circularly that it is obvious because it is obvious.)

Question: Do you think the artwork and title by themselves, obviously and with no logical capacity to expect otherwise, indicate a bioware-style romance? If not necessarily a bioware style romance, do you then concede that our conception of romance is important in forming people's expectations for this game? Can you then see how this relates to my point that people will expect different things from the art and game itself according to their conception of romance?

To take the definition you gave "...but defining romance is VERY simple....a stated sentiment between the characters that reoccurs at least a couple of times", I would have no problem agreeing with you that we should all expect romance to be in the game, because it is virtually certain that sentiments will be stated between the characters many times.

The reason I am harping on about definitions is not to make some abstract theoretical point but to help illustrate my view that people can and will draw different interpretations from the art & title according to their personal conception of romance... not to mention their interpretation of humanity's original sin, capacity to find meanings in art, cultural background, pre-knowledge of the game and just because hey, we are all different.

To repeat myself, I don't deny that one can draw romantic meanings from the art and title. I am disputing your claim that the romantic meanings are so profound and abundant as to over-ride all other potential meanings and set expectations for the game.



Not at all difficult, I agree with this. You lose me with the remainder of that paragraph though. Again, we may have to agree to disagree about the extent and ways Larian have created expectations and what those expectations can reasonably be. We are arguing a moot point anyway because Larian did make those public statements about becoming lovers.

Not to worry though, I'm not personally offended beyond feeling irked that I am apparently unable to effectively communicate my position to you. I did appreciate the tone of your last post more than previous ones though, thank you. And I do appreciate your sincerity.

All that Bioware ME3 stuff you mention... Yeah, couldn't agree more. An example of a complete f*** you to their fans and I have no problems with you or anyone calling bull*** on that... BECAUSE they explicitly promised something misleading to customers - Not because of some artwork or title that is so culturally value-laden as to be open to diverse interpretation.

Why do I get the feeling Raze was able to say more, and more effectively, than I was able to in my entire rant post?

Not really....sure a woman could do all that without meaning romantic love but this isn't a woman....it's a character designed to a specific purpose and when all those features are so accentuated nobody will look at this and think "Ooooh they're gonna be best buds!!!" not in western culture where you'll catch more than a few shifty looks if two men hold hands....that's just the reality we live in not a speech about what it could technically be and political correctness. And again there's every possible parallel with the other widely known story of Original Sin. I'm not seeing anything in Raze's comment I haven't addressed a dozen times over....sure things *could* be interpreted a different way but it's blatantly obvious that wasn't the perception and assumptions Larian were trying to instigate. So they have painted themselves in a corner with this I think.

There's going to be a lot of fun reading around here if Larian end up having to explain how we totally misinterpreted everything and how they totally didn't mean romance.

For a Rorschach Test, a psychiatrist shows a guy a series of ink blots and asks him what he sees. The man answers, in series:

"A man and a woman making love in a park."
"A man and a woman making love in a boat."
"A man and a woman making love at the beach."
...

At the end of the test, the psychiatrist looks over his notes and says, "It looks like you have a preoccupation with sex."

"Me!?" the man demands, "You're the one who keeps showing me the dirty pictures!"

Looks like having cyber-seks with npcs is a serious matter for some, and probably the reason they bought the game.
Weirdos.

Pictures aside, here you go some official statement:

The main characters relationship is not specifically a love story. You can certainly take it in that direction if you wish. They may become enemies, business associates, friends, or even lovers depending on how you develop them. Will they end up as friends and even lovers, or do they have to learn to live together out of sheer necessity?

If even THIS isn't confirmation romance, then I do not know what more you want.
Swen Vincke with a large sign "WE HAVE ROMANCE IN ORIGINAL SIN" on his chest?

Where is that from? How old is it?

Nobody has explicitly said there will be no romance option possible in the game (Swen, I think, referring to Bioware style 'romance' in the twitch stream), or that it wasn't said there would be. One of the endings for the game being romantic fits with the official statements, though, and was what I was assuming would be the case.

I give up.
This problem became too debilitating.
I'll wait for the release.

i thought that when Swen was referring to Bioware style of romance in the twitch that he actually meant that there wont be sex screens-lets have sex now or smt along these lines

First things first: I have said several times that romance in Original Sin does no in my opinion need to mean sex.

As for preoccupation with sex, sure....certain as gravity, it's one of the most sought out activities in life....but when it comes to this issue there are two kinds of people in the world: those who have it and liars. Attraction is beyond human control, it happens regardless of whether you think it shouldn't or attempts to control it, no matter what you think or do it is there regardless of what you think of yourself or what you do about it. Why do you think the rate of divorce is so insanely high? Because most people haven't the slightest clue why they wanted to marry a certain person and haven't the slightest clue why that feeling that brought them together is gone.....sure you can rationalize and place blame on all sorts of things but that's not it, at most it may be a small part of the reason why things changed the blame is almost always two sided.

But you really shouldn't be a hypocrite and recognize that if you want to start pointing the finger to anyone as being preoccupied with sex you have got to start with Larian. And please spare me the nonsense of "Well, that's totally not what they meant." because you as well as everyone else here knows that's a lie.

Yall must understand that Larian is promising a lot of stuff they don't really care about, as long as it makes them sell stuff. There's nothing like a good lie to start your day.
Don't expect anything, that way, you won't be disapointed.

Well, that would have saved us 10+ pages of speculation ;P

And of course, romance does not mean sex.... but a well written romance incorporates it anyway (often not as goal, but rather as mid-point) since anyone claiming the 2 things are not somehow related must be another species altogether.

It's just a fact that romance is part of character development for an rpg, while sex scenes and fan-service is part of PLAYER reward. These things serve fundamentally different goals. But a well made game might conjoin them together neatly and create what meme land knows as "waifu" characters. And the goal for a writer in an rpg should at all times be to create characters that people care about (something I think Larian isn't very good at to put it lightly, I literally can't remember anyone from DKS except Belegar!)

Tali and Garret are good examples how to do character writing (even if cliché), which is why I often cringe when I read "we won't make bioware style romances" because bioware is the only AAA dev that actually attempted them to begin with. And not just that, but gay and lesbian romances / alien too.


But in the end, in D:OS native campaign I am not sure I even want romance.. we'll see whether that would work when we play it. (I am not against it though!)

Personally, I could care less if there is romance. There are so many things this game provides that was non-existent in the market for 10+ years that getting upset over romances is a bit childish. If it is such a problem for some of you, then ask for a refund (or don't buy it). If not, then shut up and move along. This incessant whining and feigned wrong doing accusations are ridiculous. Piss or get off the pot people... ie shut up or move along.

your mother must be really happy with how polite you are...

also things are not so simple as you wish them to be.

Your father must be ashamed of how naive and thin skinned you are...

What is complex about it?

From what I have read, they planned on having a bit more depth, but then they pulled back a bit for various reasons. Romance exists, but in a "Non-Bioware" fashion. This means chances are the romance will be slight and not focused on to any extent (cut scenes and major interaction focuses).

So, you either accept such... or you do not, but coming here and throwing tantrums and accusing Larian of betraying people?

It is teenage drama. Sheesh.

thank you for sharing your opinion and your insight and showing us again your politeness with your words.

now that you are satisfied with indulging your own ego... back to the main topic.

no official word out yet about the conflicting info posted here. of course devs must be really running crazy around with the release date so close. would be nice to get an input from them about it before the game release date but otherwise we will know after the game is released.

Maybe someone will ask on the livestream that's going on now.

that would be nice. shame that i cant watch it now.

if anyone here is watching and is also curious about this topic please try to get an answer from them and share it with us after. thanks.

They are going over the editor now, but at the end there is supposed to be a Q&A.

We can hope...

Well really no Q&A session at all. You'd think just answering a few hot topics from the boards would be nice.

Oh well.

It wasn't intended to be quite that literal. It was a joke about a guy reading things into a series of ink blots.



"You're the one who keeps showing me the dirty pictures!"

Just because you see 'obvious' meanings in things doesn't mean that everyone else necessarily does, or that they are intended.

The tracking of affinity and affection between the main characters is IMO a relatively minor feature, which should improve character development and replayability. Romance was said to be one possibility, after some kind of choice, if the characters liked each other enough. It was never in and of itself a major feature of the game. There is no grand conspiracy to trick people looking for RPGs focused on romance into buying D:OS. If Larian thought there was a huge market for that, they would explicitly promote romance as a feature and actually bring it up without having to be asked, not release artwork featuring red lipstick and have the characters holding hands (explicitly stating that that is not romantic) as some kind of subliminal trick.

Where is this tracking of A&A anyway? I found some other stuff, but even though I had my characters agree with each other all the time the two seemed to be on opposite ends of each spectrum. Also it looked like some of these things gave bonuses, which I really don't like as now it seems I'll be making choices to get the right bonuses as opposed to just RPing my characters.

Did you expect to role play and min/max stats equally? What is the point of role playing then? It kind of defeats the entire point don't you think? It is like a person playing a Paladin in D&D and then complaining that they will lose favor with their God if they steal from someone.

Basically you can't have your cake and eat it too.

AFAIK there are no consequences for affinity and affection during the beta; it should effect the ending of the game, and may influence how dialogue progresses later in the game.

Well no, that's not what I meant exactly. To be honest I don't understand the mechanics behind it yet, so I don't know how or if it will affect game-play choices.

But there is the issue I have that if doing something a certain way gives a bonus in something my character needs, then there must be someone that thinks the type of character I'm playing needs to be doing that. But who is making that decision? What is it based on? Again I really need some details on the mechanics of it all. Maybe if we ever get a manual it will be clarified what is actually going on there.

But where is it? Can it not be seen anywhere?

No, it is not shown in-game.

Heh? That is pretty stupid.

I will have to play with the paper on which I will write every increase and decrease...

Why game can not do it instead me?

Will it be in the full game? Almost sounds like those hidden romance setting in BG2.

The game allows for many types of approaches. What I think you are worried about is not going to be much of an issue.

So it can piss you off and give you something to complain about, why else?

I am pretty sure I overheard some devs talking in the background during one of the updates. Your name came up and there was a bit of evil cackling going on.

well no news about this on the stream today as someone posted here before.

seems like we will have to wait for the game to be out to know if this is just a misunderstanding or if in fact the "romance aspect" of the game was indeed erased from it. and if is still there just how it is presented.

so once you guys have the game please share your impressions about this subject here ok.

Given of how the Developers wish for to create this game to had been a realistic immersive roleplaying experience where the Player would eat, sleep, earn a living and interact with the world around them within the Divinity universe having implemented a romance between the protagonists would seem a no-brainer so long as they keep the content PG-13 there is nothing possible of that they can do wrong with this feature.

Just kidding

okay since i have been searching around and found nothing i decided to join this thread and ask for a news update!

Has anyone verified, after playing the fully released game, if there is any romance between the main characters? Or is it true that there is no romance what's so ever as it was stated by one the devs on a stream some days ago?

Clarifying quickly: NO i don't mean sex scenes or New-BioWare style romances (Dragon Age, Mass Effect) but rather meaningful dialogues that show the intimacy (if the player chooses for it to exist) between the characters. Pretty much like old BioWare style games like Baldur's Gate II.

I Appreciate any responses.

as it was posted above, the game is out now and people are playing it.

so for those who are further in the game... what happened to the romance??? is it there??? is it not there???

thanks.

If you don't want sex scenes (and frankly this is the wrong game for that anyways), then what are you hoping for with the inclusion of romance?

It doesn't change your current party set up.

It's not like the main characters will marry at the end and/or have babies that you can play as the next generation of heroes.

They cannot add a bonus for being romantically involved without starting a PR shitstorm unless they make it possible for every LGBQT pairing as well as your heterosexual and asexual chars.

I don't mean to sound critical but I am genuinely curious about what you want romance to bring to the game other than a few lines of dialogue?

I actually doubt that there is one, or the framework for a romance..

And these a few lines of dialogue make the romance much more profound and realistic than this Bioware pornography. Remember the scene form Planescape Torment between the hero and Annah, this biting kiss in the tavern? That was one of the greatest romance scenes in computer games ever, despite being just a few words.

Has anyone got far enough to know what's happening with all this, it's on the features page... surely Larian wouldn't pull a ME3 style lying session on us?

I agree that well written dialogue can make or break romance on any day but usually these dialogues are set in the frame of a particular story that the game wants to tell.

E.g. In fire emblem you can only pair certain characters so you will only get dialogues for certain characters, but these characters have preset personalities and goals and attitudes and their dialogue reflects that

In this game the characters are suppose to be blank slates that you can form into whatever you want them to be. In his context I think it's hard to tell a romance story that can appeal to all users/play styles etc.

Well, I don't know exactly how far I am, but I haven't seen anything like a romance for the main characters or any companions. For the most part, your two main characters can just praise each other (to the point that it seems like they DO love one another), or you can make them bicker and argue.

Maybe something will change later on, but I'm on 'Act 3,' so to speak, and nothing has happened thus far.

It's one of the awesome things about RPGs IMO, it's for a laugh but it really boosts the RP vibe of it.

I do plenty alright IRL with 'romance', but this is not a substitute for people, it's a flavour filled spice that is sprinkled on top of our RPG experiences.



On the other hand, if we're romancing ourselves... that will be a bit different lol (or not so different, if you na' mean).

so is there any kind of romance between the main characters???

if you so wish can you follow that path as the devs said so many months ago???

Songbird...If you find weird that people expect deep character development in any kind of form (including romance) then maybe you don't even grasp the meaning of RP...A few lines??? mate you might as well be one of those morons that play WoW and don't even bother to read a quest but rather see the reward and press accept. Scroll down to the choice and be done with it..People that love to invest into their games and characters find those few lines as you call them as meaningful as killing a horde of mobs and reaching a boss fight. And the fact that you expect from a romance subplot to be interconnected with gameplay for it to be meaningful is so sad that i want to reach out to my lcd screen touch your username and say there there...

I just beat the game today, and I'm... unsure exactly how to answer this. Yes, there's actually a romance between your two characters, but it kind of just gets stated at the very end. Like, "Good job beating the game. BTW, you two love each other!"

I was a little confused, because despite being able to compliment one another in an extremely loving, devoted way, the characters don't talk to one another or acknowledge a romance. It feels a little disjointed.

I'm also unsure about any sort of romance depending on gender, but the way the game says you love each other could kind of be more like family or friends. Like absolute best friends who would be happy fusing their very being to one another for all time.


So... yep. If you're after interactive romance where you win someone over in the style of Mass Effect, it's not here. If you're hoping for the word LOVE to be used, however, you win!

Finally! LockeMurdock thank you for shedding light to the situation! And yes that is more than enough for me to be satisfied Still this dialogue system where you answer for both of the main characters seems a little off . Would have preferred if ,in single player, there was a specific character script for both of the main characters depending on which you would control. But still i can;t wait to get my hands on it

New AI personalities are on the way, probably next week.

http://www.larian.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=504880#Post504880

Well, I've finished the game and there is a romance in the game...confined in a few dialogue lines at the end of the game. Lol, indeed, Bioware game this is not!

Most games that include romances give you consequences for your romantic decisions. I am a fan of romance in those kind of games. Like I said, in this game, romance doesn't change your party composition or affect your game ending. If you are not looking for some "romantic" cut scenes and just want some dialogue, then the game already delivers since there is dialogue of a loving sort in the game.

Since you seem to be a champion of RP, why not RP. Make up your own dialogue while playing and play your roles. Even 3 year olds know how to play make believe. And on the subject of RP, I think your two protagonists being too busy writing love poetry to each other than stopping the cultists trivializes the gravity of the world saving quest that you are on.

But, hey, romance is the epitome of game depth, right? Lets start a petition to turn D:OS into a dating SIM because I can't wait to get to setup Madora with Captain Aureus.

I beat the game as well today, but the only mention of romance was ZixZax talking about my characters becoming politicians and that one of them tried unsuccessfully getting the other to return their affection, but that it was "like trying to romance a brick wall". I wonder if the ending slightly changes based on your dialogue choices.

Really? I got a totally different one. Mine was that

My outcome was something along the lines of my characters gazing into each other's eyes, falling in love, settling down and recklessly (in Zixzax's opinion) going through a soul-forge. Though I wasn't entirely paying attention, as I don't, so I don't recall the exact dialogue.

Well at least there is some mention of a romance at the end of this game. In Dragon Commander there is no mention of your wife at all in the ending, which was the only person I really cared about.