Larian Studios
Posted By: Blackhaven Isn't stealing too easy? - 30/06/14 07:45 PM
Hi, I'm loving the game so far, except for a detail that seems to be a bit of a balance issue.

It appears that whenever you want to steal something without consequences, all you have to do is have one character talk to the NPC in the room, to make the NPC face away from the goods you want to steal. Then, while your first character is still in dialogue, you send your other character to steal the stuff, and the NPC will never notice. I don't have a rogue or any sort of sneaky character, and this still works.

This seems a bit too easy, specially given how valuable some of the stuff (specially paintings) is.

I am playing on normal, maybe playing on hard changes this?
Posted By: nstgc Re: Isn't stealing too easy? - 30/06/14 07:47 PM
Given that in most games you loot everything under the Sun and then some without any repercussions, I don't think this is an issue.
Posted By: aborell Re: Isn't stealing too easy? - 30/06/14 07:54 PM
hey, thanks for the tip XD
Posted By: VienxInq Re: Isn't stealing too easy? - 30/06/14 08:10 PM
I have done that in the Beta. Stealing has a weight limit so regardless, you can only steal so much. Also, having one character talk to someone and the other pickpocket IS cool. It;s like what people do in real life.

I don't think you want it to be like in Skyrim where all you have to do is put a bucket on someones head for them to not see you steal, lolz.
Posted By: LeBurns Re: Isn't stealing too easy? - 30/06/14 08:11 PM
I think you have to give your character some kind of moral compass to make it realistic. Honestly, even given the opportunity I'm not going to steal something. No need for my character to do it either.

I just don't want there to be some item that you NEED to steal when I'm trying to play a decent good aligned character.
Posted By: Blackhaven Re: Isn't stealing too easy? - 30/06/14 08:16 PM
Originally Posted by nstgc
Given that in most games you loot everything under the Sun and then some without any repercussions, I don't think this is an issue.


I would agree, if it wasn't for how valuable some of the stuff is, relative to the risk. I can steal a few paintings from a simple house and exchange for a magical sword that is a massive upgrade to me. In "most games", if you want to get such a big upgrade, it's at usually the end of dungeon, after killing a boss, after finishing a big quest, or as a reward to something of similar difficulty.

I find this to be clever system (using one character as a distraction), but I don't think it should work 100% of the time.

I think it should do something like check how good your distraction is (how much your character holds the NPC attention), and how good your sneak is.

If your "sneak roll" is lower than your "distraction roll", the NPC should interrupt dialogue and turn around, discovering your theft attempt.
Posted By: Horrorscope Re: Isn't stealing too easy? - 30/06/14 08:51 PM
Originally Posted by Blackhaven
Hi, I'm loving the game so far, except for a detail that seems to be a bit of a balance issue.

It appears that whenever you want to steal something without consequences, all you have to do is have one character talk to the NPC in the room, to make the NPC face away from the goods you want to steal. Then, while your first character is still in dialogue, you send your other character to steal the stuff, and the NPC will never notice. I don't have a rogue or any sort of sneaky character, and this still works.

This seems a bit too easy, specially given how valuable some of the stuff (specially paintings) is.

I am playing on normal, maybe playing on hard changes this?


Not really, because that is exactly how I do it in real life. Divert with my sexy wife holding a conversation and then stuff my pants with goods. Then just like this game, I can take it to Returns and get store credit without a receipt. TOO EASY!

I kid for myself, but this is very real in retail.

As for the game, yeah I don't think it ever hit a perfect balance.

LeBurns though is right, it then is how you roleplay.
Posted By: nstgc Re: Isn't stealing too easy? - 30/06/14 08:57 PM
Originally Posted by Blackhaven
Originally Posted by nstgc
Given that in most games you loot everything under the Sun and then some without any repercussions, I don't think this is an issue.


I would agree, if it wasn't for how valuable some of the stuff is, relative to the risk. I can steal a few paintings from a simple house and exchange for a magical sword that is a massive upgrade to me. In "most games", if you want to get such a big upgrade, it's at usually the end of dungeon, after killing a boss, after finishing a big quest, or as a reward to something of similar difficulty.

I find this to be clever system (using one character as a distraction), but I don't think it should work 100% of the time.

I think it should do something like check how good your distraction is (how much your character holds the NPC attention), and how good your sneak is.

If your "sneak roll" is lower than your "distraction roll", the NPC should interrupt dialogue and turn around, discovering your theft attempt.


True. I found this myself, but since neither of the characters I've been using are the sorts to do that (one's lawful-stupid and the other just wants to get going) I never exploited this. Now that I think of it, you are right. It should only give something like a +X to sneak instead of a automatic thing.
Posted By: eNTi Re: Isn't stealing too easy? - 30/06/14 09:02 PM
Originally Posted by nstgc
Given that in most games you loot everything under the Sun and then some without any repercussions, I don't think this is an issue.

way to go excusing flawed game design by comparing it to even more flawed game design...
Posted By: nstgc Re: Isn't stealing too easy? - 30/06/14 09:05 PM
Originally Posted by eNTi
Originally Posted by nstgc
Given that in most games you loot everything under the Sun and then some without any repercussions, I don't think this is an issue.

way to go excusing flawed game design by comparing it to even more flawed game design...


Its a standard gameplay element found in almost every RPG I've ever played. If you don't like it go back to playing Call of Duty or whatever the cool kids are playing these days.
Posted By: Ceno Re: Isn't stealing too easy? - 15/07/14 06:39 PM
Yes I do think it's a bit too easy to steal. At least the mechanics of stealing could be a bit better. For instance, I shouldn't be able to steal something from an npc's house, then sell their own item directly back to them, then pickpocket the item back while they aren't looking. Yet I've done it on multiple occasions. It's funny yet sad at the same time..
Posted By: pts Re: Isn't stealing too easy? - 15/07/14 07:03 PM
They just don't expect the heroes from the order of source hunters to steal anything. Even if something is missing, they wouldn't dare to accuse those demonslayers - and anyway, isn't it much more likely the beggar did it? Those heroes have so many riches, surely they wouldn't steal my old cooking pot... (oh yes, they would^^)

Yes, it's a bit easy to steal, but i don't think its very unrealistic for the people in town to be unsuspecting.
Posted By: Tyhan Re: Isn't stealing too easy? - 15/07/14 07:13 PM
Originally Posted by pts
Yes, it's a bit easy to steal, but i don't think its very unrealistic for the people in town to be unsuspecting.


I think they should be suspecting when you try to sell their stuff to them.
Posted By: pts Re: Isn't stealing too easy? - 15/07/14 07:25 PM
Originally Posted by Tyhan
Originally Posted by pts
Yes, it's a bit easy to steal, but i don't think its very unrealistic for the people in town to be unsuspecting.


I think they should be suspecting when you try to sell their stuff to them.


I agree, but that would require an ownership tag for every item. It would work, but i don't see the benefit of this additional coding work, all the player will do is sell to a different merchant. Do you know a good stealing system in another game ?

The only decent ones i remember were in Gothic 2 and the Thief series.
Posted By: eidolon Re: Isn't stealing too easy? - 15/07/14 09:04 PM
"What a lovely portrait of my husband you got there! I give you 1500 Gold so I can have one for the kitchen in addition to the one in our bedroom."
Posted By: ScrotieMcB Re: Isn't stealing too easy? - 16/07/14 01:56 AM
It's amazing how, um, unsavvy the NPCs are in terms of theft.

1. Using an invisibility skill (such as Walk in Shadows) or attempting (and failing) to enter Sneak mode within sight of an NPC should illicit the same response as trying to steal something within their sight they give you a light scolding, cancel the action (so you don't turn invisible), and their attitude decreases. This would encourage players to begin invisibility outside of sight range.
2. Coming out of invisibility or Sneak mode within sight of an NPC should be construed as a near-definite indication of major theft. In civilized areas, the police would immediately be summoned to throw you in jail; in less civil areas, it should immediately trigger a fight. This would encourage players to make a "clean" getaway.
3. Distracting the sight range of NPCs by having other character engage them in dialogue is a neat trick and should work, but it shouldn't work as well. The way to fix this is to have NPCs "half-face" player characters they are talking to, shifting their cone of vision towards the conversing character but not quite so far as centering the cone on the conversing character. In other words, some fraction of the effect of the current situation.
4. Ownership of stolen items should remain a property even after the item is in your inventory (although this might be hidden from player view). If you offer a stolen item back to the very person you stole it from, you should expect either the police to show up to escort you to jail, or a fight.
5. Walk in Shadows should have its duration reduced from 5 turns to 3, while having its cooldown reduced from 10 turns to 7.
6. Invisibility (Aerotheurge spell) should have its cooldown increased from 6 to 9. It can be lowered with higher Intelligence (cooldown 6 at 10 Intelligence).
Posted By: Brazuca Re: Isn't stealing too easy? - 16/07/14 02:18 AM
I guess for now we just need to wait for a mod that either makes stealing more difficult or that can cause some sort of negative effect for doing it?

I notice whenever you steal it tells you whom you stole it from, maybe something could be done from that, although unlikely.

Maybe someone could eventually mod it so the pickpocket skill becomes tied in some way to stealing?
Maybe if you succeed you get the item, if you fail the owner of the item will somehow magically know it was you and drop their attitude of you by 5. Eventually calling the guards on you the moment they see you. Something like this probably isn't possible anytime soon though.
Posted By: Weston Re: Isn't stealing too easy? - 16/07/14 02:35 AM
Yes, in my opinion it's far too easy.

The way that I would have liked to see it working is that you can distract the NPC with one character and go about sneaking with your other character but every xx ticks (random amount of ticks) the NPC should have a chance of turning around in your direction and if it spotted you getting up from a sneak position it would become more aware and maybe break it's conversation and then keep an eye on all of your characters in a heightened sort of awareness.

The way it works now, it's nearly impossible to fail stealing whatever you like as long as there is enough room to get your character between the NPC and whatever object it might be looking at, such as putting your character between a bookshelf and the NPC while your other character is behind it on the opposite side of the room.
Posted By: lmyyyks Re: Isn't stealing too easy? - 16/07/14 03:16 AM
I think if the game is designed to have you think 10 at least seconds to steal anything from each room then you will soon give up stealing.
Posted By: ScrotieMcB Re: Isn't stealing too easy? - 16/07/14 03:40 AM
Originally Posted by lmyyyks
I think if the game is designed to have you think 10 at least seconds to steal anything from each room then you will soon give up stealing.
I think it is important that stealing not be nerfed into the ground... merely nerfed. Right now it's too easy, but it shouldn't be made impossible. Changes should be curbed by moderation and common sense.

Being able to use Walk in Shadows right in front of an NPC and have them think nothing of it, then they see plates and cups move off the table then disappear, all without paying it any mind... that's just not common sense. If that happened to me in my house, and I lived in a world where magical invisibility was a thing, I'd probably figure out what was going on. No idea what I'd do about it, but I'd know some invisible dude is stealing from me.
Posted By: lmyyyks Re: Isn't stealing too easy? - 16/07/14 06:42 AM
Originally Posted by ScrotieMcB
Originally Posted by lmyyyks
I think if the game is designed to have you think 10 at least seconds to steal anything from each room then you will soon give up stealing.
I think it is important that stealing not be nerfed into the ground... merely nerfed. Right now it's too easy, but it shouldn't be made impossible. Changes should be curbed by moderation and common sense.

Being able to use Walk in Shadows right in front of an NPC and have them think nothing of it, then they see plates and cups move off the table then disappear, all without paying it any mind... that's just not common sense. If that happened to me in my house, and I lived in a world where magical invisibility was a thing, I'd probably figure out what was going on. No idea what I'd do about it, but I'd know some invisible dude is stealing from me.

Players should understand that this whole stealing thing is just a part of the game but not an integral part. You can complete every single quest without stealing or killing non-hostile NPCs. The game is meant to be flexible, so Larian allows you to steal things using some tricks. You want more challenges to exercise your brain, Larian offers that as well. There are lots of puzzles in this game, some are so difficult that people have to come to open threads asking for solutions, just that they are not about stealing.

This is a game, and we don't talk reality and common sense, please. With half an eye open you can still identify a suspicious person moving in the disguise of an extra barrel in your own house even when that barrel is out of your "cone of sight".
Posted By: Halcyon Re: Isn't stealing too easy? - 16/07/14 10:33 AM
Not too easy. I was delighted when I found out it was possible to "distract" people like that. Making it harder would just encourage save/reloading to avoid pissing off the entire city. It's OK with a measure of predictability, especially in a turn based game.

If it absolutely MUST be changed, then make it turn based and require strategy for getting it completed. Requiring twitch reflexes for stealing in real time - in a turn based game - would be stupid.
Posted By: tissot Re: Isn't stealing too easy? - 16/07/14 11:25 AM
I am confused by this thread. After years of playing RPGs I was convinced that it was part of the long, heroic traditions of world saving heroes. You know, saving princesses, slaying dragons and stealing everything that isn't nailed down (unless you have a hammer).
Posted By: Styno Re: Isn't stealing too easy? - 16/07/14 12:13 PM
The thing is, if you steal something from a room and come back hours later, it will still be gone. This is part of the interactive world people like so much
Posted By: ScrotieMcB Re: Isn't stealing too easy? - 16/07/14 12:32 PM
Originally Posted by lmyyyks
This is a game, and we don't talk reality and common sense, please. With half an eye open you can still identify a suspicious person moving in the disguise of an extra barrel in your own house even when that barrel is out of your "cone of sight".
Okay, point taken on the whole evoking common sense thing. You're right that it's a game and common sense doesn't apply.

Still, invisibility skills being an effortless "easy button" to infinite wealth isn't exactly what I'd call good game design.
Posted By: PeteNewell Re: Isn't stealing too easy? - 16/07/14 01:10 PM
I think this is part of a long list of issues where some people would like to see all of the things they personally want to do differently taken away from everybody else. Because that's what people do, really. See this thread - http://www.larian.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=520864#Post520864 - or half the bloody beta forum if you can wade through it.

After all, just because it's a *game* about legendary, semi-mythical beings rediscovering who and what they are in a magical world, that doesn't mean they should have any kind of special advantages that *I* wouldn't have in the real world.

What if they added a new difficulty level called "fun-sucking-totally-nerfed-grimdark", where stealing took careful timing, implausible luck and micro-management; combat was crushingly difficult; and all of the silliness was removed and replaced by "gritty" realism?

Or what if they just did the kind of fantasy romp that they've done so very well and people stopped nit-picking and proclaiming their opinions as universal, self-evident truths?

Nah. Never gonna happen. I've gotta stop looking at threads like this.
Posted By: Songbird Re: Isn't stealing too easy? - 16/07/14 05:05 PM
I love Zelda games. You can go into people's houses, smash all their pots, and they don't even blink an eye. If you are low are money, you can cut grass. It doesn't have to be real to be fun.

For the people who want realism, why aren't you also demanding bladder meters and hunger meters where you constantly have to excrete waste and intake food to maintain your bodily functions?

Posted By: gunnergoz Re: Isn't stealing too easy? - 16/07/14 06:04 PM
As a newb to RPGs I hope they leave it in with difficulty scaled to play level l.e. easy, hard,etc.
Posted By: Sunnyhat Re: Isn't stealing too easy? - 16/07/14 06:56 PM
I don't think stealing is too easy. It's quite fun as it is.
It's just way too profitable. Household stuff shouldn't be worth that much.
Seriously i think someone made a decimal error on painting values. -.-
Posted By: Periodiko Re: Isn't stealing too easy? - 16/07/14 07:22 PM
It's a really great game but:

There really should be a penalty for stealing TONS of stuff in a town, even if you aren't caught. Yeah, a thing here and there are easy to get away with, but when the source hunters roll into town and every painting in a square mile radius is stolen and then fenced to a local cheese vendor, it's really not hard to figure out who did it.

Mechanically, there should just be a counter that counts the value and number of things you steal, and when both those numbers go above a certain point in one area, the kind where you basically completely ransacked two or more houses, your reputation should start dropping and the legion should start harassing you and following you when you're in town.

Right now, it's too much "why not steal everything in this basement", when really, that doesn't make any sense. People do notice when things are stolen, and you're literally the only person that's been there, and also you were sighted fencing all the stolen items to an upstanding merchant.

People might not notice or forgive a potion here and there, but when everyone's houses no longer have any paintings...
Posted By: skippy Re: Isn't stealing too easy? - 20/07/14 01:12 PM
No it's not too hard to work out who stole all the paintings. Rock paper scissors-it was the cheese merchant! He always had his nose in everything...
Posted By: Purple Paladin Re: Isn't stealing too easy? - 21/07/14 09:46 PM
Here's a great example of how this exploit can ruin the game: My friend and I were really looking forward to this game, and playing coop. Not too far in, he discovers the stealing exploit, and starts stealing everything he possibly can.

To start, it was a super boring mechanic as it is, so I am already annoyed to have to keep waiting for him (I refused to steal because I think it's a huge exploit; a money god-mode). Then, I start to notice there is no consequences to him stealing what-so-ever. None. In fact, he can steal stuff right in front of them, and barter it back to them, and they don't even notice either way.

Add to that, now he's going around with OP equipment and pretty much every item he wants, again, with no game repercussions of any type. Me and my character play by the rules, and look like fools for not using the exploit (I'm still saving for once piece of equipment I want, and he laughs at me).

And the final dominoe for me was how he just plows through enemies so fast, combat is boooooring! So for now, we are going to play the game separately, solo.

So yes, it is an exploit, a huge one, and the few people saying it isn't sound like they use savescumming and exploits in all games anyways. In every other game I've played with stealing, it is risky, you can almost never steal something of much value, and there are big repercussions for doing so also even if you are successful.
Posted By: dlux Re: Isn't stealing too easy? - 21/07/14 10:40 PM
Just cast invisible, then you can steal anything and everything without any problems. smile
Posted By: Horrorscope Re: Isn't stealing too easy? - 21/07/14 11:42 PM
If you want to take things into your own hand you can modify game difficulties fairly easy. The games vision cone is defaulted at 90 degrees, you can modify it well above that to make it so you can't basically steal with anyone in a room, which is probably a lot more realistic. However there are some exceptions to that.

I don't know what this does for invisibility since it don't have that skill, I'll give it a whirl though to see.

I use 500 degrees, because there was still enough of a sliver for some reason behind a NPC you could still sneak successfully in. 500 wipes that out.

I don't know if this can break the game in some way in some type of mission. What I do is modify the three difficulty levels. Hard 500, Normal 240 and Easy 90 (games natural default), so if I had some place I had to have only 90 degrees cone vision, I can move to Easy really quick and do that and then continue. I created an Easy that is more like a setting to help if I get stuck, lots of extra perception etc in Easy, in the case I can find something important.

I can assure you though, you will not go into any area with NPC's and steal. It does seem a lot more realistic. Now you have to get them out of the room or do very bad things to them.
Posted By: LethalBlade Re: Isn't stealing too easy? - 22/07/14 01:08 AM
I agree that stealing is WAY too easy, so much so that it unbalances the game's economy if exploited. I like how Skyrim handled stolen goods. While it could be easy to steal in that game as well, stolen items were unsellable to any vendors except for the fences in the thieves' guild, which you had to seek out and become a member of before you could sell to them. Hopefully, a D:OS mod will fix this.
Posted By: Jymm Re: Isn't stealing too easy? - 22/07/14 02:56 AM
Yeah... Stealing.... I really tried hard to be a good guy and not steal people's stuff. But the economy is sooo broken. I can't afford any skill books and all the enemies kick my arse. All the loot I get from the areas I can actually wade through is barely enough to upgrade one item or buy one new skill when I come back to town. And some of the plots seem nearly impossible to advance without a little B&E action. So I kind of feel forced to break the law to advance.

I don't necessarily mind stealing being easy, but I am bothered by the combination of zero consequences for stealing and painful poverty if you don't. A little balance tweaking here would definitely be appreciated.
Posted By: JohnnySpaghetti Re: Isn't stealing too easy? - 22/07/14 02:58 AM
tbh need a mony sink imho

2 much gold in da gaem
Posted By: JohnnySpaghetti Re: Isn't stealing too easy? - 22/07/14 02:59 AM
MORE DEN 1 SMITTY PLZZZ

NT JUS TIBERIAMS SMITTY (goblin)

so i can spend mony on smitty or sumthin....

2...much...gold
Posted By: dirigible Re: Isn't stealing too easy? - 22/07/14 03:00 PM
How do you modify the vision cone angle?
Posted By: Horrorscope Re: Isn't stealing too easy? - 22/07/14 03:25 PM
Originally Posted by dirigible
How do you modify the vision cone angle?


Here is the link:
http://www.larian.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=44210&Number=518031#Post518031

You would want to modify upwards in character.txt, (90 is default):
data "FOV" "90"

There are many things we can tweak game play wise that fixes many of the issues talked about. For example in the file you can limit how much resistance is possible in the game, so you can't become totally immune.

If you want to have different FOV's based on Easy, Med and Hard after doing the above, PM me.

Posted By: Candew Re: Isn't stealing too easy? - 22/07/14 03:41 PM
Originally Posted by PeteNewell
I think this is part of a long list of issues where some people would like to see all of the things they personally want to do differently taken away from everybody else. Because that's what people do, really. See this thread - http://www.larian.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=520864#Post520864 - or half the bloody beta forum if you can wade through it.

After all, just because it's a *game* about legendary, semi-mythical beings rediscovering who and what they are in a magical world, that doesn't mean they should have any kind of special advantages that *I* wouldn't have in the real world.

What if they added a new difficulty level called "fun-sucking-totally-nerfed-grimdark", where stealing took careful timing, implausible luck and micro-management; combat was crushingly difficult; and all of the silliness was removed and replaced by "gritty" realism?

Or what if they just did the kind of fantasy romp that they've done so very well and people stopped nit-picking and proclaiming their opinions as universal, self-evident truths?

Nah. Never gonna happen. I've gotta stop looking at threads like this.


Bravo. I concur wholeheartedly!

You see this time and again in all of the so called 'balance' threads. Reporting bugs is one thing, but asking the designers to re-design the game to their own liking (which is effectively what they are asking for) is something entirely different.
Posted By: Horrorscope Re: Isn't stealing too easy? - 22/07/14 04:01 PM
^Agreed. That is why mod'ing is nice, we can hone it in all our own. Pete goes for worst case stating a solution becomes a chore in micromanagement and boredom, it doesn't have to be that way to be improved.

I found a sound fix is just make the FOV 100%, if a person is in the room and not sleeping or sitting (it seems sitting in this game = sleeping for vision) you cannot steal. Makes it easier yet for the player, no guessing, oooop's you caught me there and all that. I find that for me it is more realistic, like I can go into any room and just get to the side of a NPC and steal everything. You can't steal, so you don't, you know not to even try unless you can lure them out of an area. I didn't test invisibility, maybe today.

All said though, better game balancing is better game balancing, I rather see it from the source as much as possible.
Posted By: dirigible Re: Isn't stealing too easy? - 22/07/14 09:54 PM
Is DOS a game about becoming the God of Thieves? Because if I'm not stealing everything then it really feels like I'm playing the game wrong.

Ideally, every strategy in the game should have certain benefits and certain drawbacks. If I am a warrior, then I get better armor and hit harder, but my mobility is reduced and I can't really deal ranged damage, and I am very gear-dependent. If I spend points on Charisma, then I can more easily talk my way out of trouble, but those are points I could have used to improve my crafting or combat abilities.

The benefit to stealing is obvious : you get vastly more gold. What's the drawback? It doesn't really require any skill investment, and the repercussions for getting caught are either so minor that they are meaningless or so major that they force a reload. Are there ONLY roleplaying reasons to not be a dickass thief?
Posted By: ScrotieMcB Re: Isn't stealing too easy? - 23/07/14 02:14 AM
Just to clarify, I feel the title is a little misleading. Stealing things without invisibility feels about right. There's room for nitpicks, and legitimate ones, but at the end of the day nitpicks shouldn't drive developer action there are more important things to do than handle such trivialities.

The real issue is: invisibility is way too good in this game for out-of-combat jobs. You can pretty much break most aspects of the game wide open just by taking Walk in Shadows at character creation. Steal everything with absolute ease, sneak past enemies to get Teller of Secrets at level 3, and completely bypass the challenges involving sentry statues. NPCs watching their stuff disappear right in front of their eyes with no reaction breaks immersion. The enemies have absolutely no counter for invisibility, so it works at bypassing anything. Invisibility isn't a nitpick, it's a huge balance and immersion problem, and I definitely feel they're going about things the wrong way trying to fix it -- such as trying to limit the Teller of Secrets books per level, when the diseased root of that particular plant is how invisibility makes it easy to access her ridiculously early.

You know it's not a nitpick because Larian themselves is already aware of the problem and proposed a solution -- too bad it's the wrong solution.
Posted By: Purple Paladin Re: Isn't stealing too easy? - 24/07/14 05:02 AM
Very well said McB. If there was a weapon exploit that could one-shot enemies, nobody would be saying "just don't use it". If there was a loophole that made a spell cost 1AP, people would not write "So, it's just part of the game". And if someone found a bypass in the mechanics to let you teleport anywhere, you would not see people saying "If you just roleplay it, then it makes sence".

But here we have an exploit that bypasses one of the main mechanics in the game: Loot. You earn your loot; you battle to find loot; you explore to get loot; you save up to buy loot; you learn to craft to get loot. Or, you can just steal for zero repercussions and get all of the above quick, free and easy.
Posted By: ScrotieMcB Re: Isn't stealing too easy? - 24/07/14 06:13 AM
Again, I'm not saying there should always be repercussions for stealing. What I'm saying is that there should be a risk of getting caught stealing, and thus a risk of repercussions for stealing. This is not the same as a guarantee of repercussions; the repercussions should be avoidable. However, they should not be automatically avoided, because that's risk-free.

Like I said earlier/elsewhere, some "see invisibility" guys. Not everywhere, just in some places. If you add too many "see invisibility" guys, the feeling starts to become that invisibility is worthless, and we emphatically do not want that. If you add too few, you get the situation we have now. There's a happy medium somewhere between those two extremes.
Posted By: PabloSplinter Re: Isn't stealing too easy? - 24/07/14 08:15 AM
For me, it isn't so much that stealing is easy it is that you can sell your stolen items to anyone... Even the person you have stolen it from. It is more the economy that needs an overhaul than the stealing, and there needs to be much better interaction between the two systems.

A game like skyrim does it perfectly. You can steal anything that you want if you are so inclined, but are limited in what you can do with them, With many merchants not buying stolen goods for the example. As it is in DOS, it basically seems like an afterthought is nothing major, just could do with a little tweak.
Posted By: Daegon Re: Isn't stealing too easy? - 24/07/14 11:03 AM
[Linked Image]


Posted By: Gotcha! Re: Isn't stealing too easy? - 24/07/14 11:44 AM
Originally Posted by PabloSplinter
A game like skyrim does it perfectly. You can steal anything that you want if you are so inclined, but are limited in what you can do with them, With many merchants not buying stolen goods for the example.


Actually, I consider that to be a very ridiculous thing about Skyrim.
Sure, it makes sense that I can rob someone's store clean and don't have the ability to sell my stolen stuff back to its rightful owner. But if I stole something in Riften, I should be able to sell it in Solitude.
But no, for some reason every merchant in Skyrim instantly knows that this wooden plate I stole is in fact stolen, like every worthless item in Skyrim has its owner's name engraved into it.


Anyhoo, about D:OS:
I like how one character can occupy someone and have the other character rob him or the room he's in. Shouldn't be 'fixed'.
What could get a fix though is pick-the-room-clean-in-under-five-seconds invisibility spells.
Perhaps have the invisibility spell cancel itself after you pick something up.

Pickpocketing is too easy as well, and it doesn't really make sense. Right now there's a limit on how much you can pickpocket from someone, but if you don't overstep that amount then you can pickpocket without the danger of being caught. Add invisibility to that and you can pickpocket someone right in the middle of a crowded room.
In my second playthrough I've been ripping off as much people as I can and am loaded with gold. >_>
Posted By: PabloSplinter Re: Isn't stealing too easy? - 24/07/14 08:02 PM
Originally Posted by Gotcha!
Originally Posted by PabloSplinter
A game like skyrim does it perfectly. You can steal anything that you want if you are so inclined, but are limited in what you can do with them, With many merchants not buying stolen goods for the example.


Actually, I consider that to be a very ridiculous thing about Skyrim.
Sure, it makes sense that I can rob someone's store clean and don't have the ability to sell my stolen stuff back to its rightful owner. But if I stole something in Riften, I should be able to sell it in Solitude.
But no, for some reason every merchant in Skyrim instantly knows that this wooden plate I stole is in fact stolen, like every worthless item in Skyrim has its owner's name engraved into it.





Fair point, though I wouldn't call it ridiculous tbh. Not perfect then, but pretty much the best system around imo. Skyrim gets a lot of stick now(seems to be cool for some reason), but it does a lot of things right and looking at how systems interact in those games, it is something that really should be given credit imo. In DOS, you have two elements- stealing and economy working fine on their own, totally separately, but there is no interaction between the two systems which there really should be if they are to compliment each other.

It is hard to see where the balance should be met in this game tbh, as it is not right atm and a little simplistic, but at the same time we don't want it made too tedious or overcomplicated like the crafting can be for example. As it is, it is functional, but barely.

Also, I agree that distracting someone whilst you steal/sneak whatever is very good. Had some great moments in my game. Combined with the teleporter pyramid thing it can be a really interesting feature - distract whilst your rogue sneaks upstairs or wherever, then stop the conversation and teleport to them...done it once where there turned out to be a fight in a cellar I was sneaking in and I was able to teleport my whole group in to even it up. It was great!
Posted By: ScrotieMcB Re: Isn't stealing too easy? - 24/07/14 08:08 PM
I'm honestly a lot more worried about how a citizen of Cyseal can calmly watch a painting walk off for a bit then vanish into nothingness, than I am worried about "fence" mechanics for proper liquidation of stolen goods. If I have to choose one to actually care about, it's the invisibility issue, hands down... which I guess means I don't really give a rat's about all of this fence talk.
Posted By: dirigible Re: Isn't stealing too easy? - 24/07/14 08:28 PM
Thing is, Scrotie, that even WITHOUT invisibility I consider stealing to be way too easy.

Maybe I'm just crazy, but I don't think that a couple warriors clanking around in full plate, with 0 points in Stealth or Pickpocket or Lockpick should be able to steal everything of value from the Mayor's home. And then, with no investment in Charisma or Barting, sell all of that gold-plated dinnerware and stacks of paintings to a merchant who doesn't find it the least bit strange that a couple grizzled adventurers just happened to be carrying around the contents of a mansion.

I literally just don't think that should be possible in this game.

If you want to build a character who can do all of that, fine. I'm all for it. But you should have to earn it. Your character SHOULD have to actually be good at sneaking in order to steal while standing right next to an npc. Your character SHOULD find it challenging to sell things which are obviously someone else's property. Your character SHOULDN'T be able to find keys to storerooms and treasure chests lying around on the ground, where anybody can pick them up.

I agree that invisibility is a related problem, but you don't even need to use it to be a master thief in this game.
Posted By: Pappus Re: Isn't stealing too easy? - 24/07/14 09:15 PM
The problem is, that there are places, where you cannot steal without invisibility or even pickpocket for that matter. For example the Inn in Silverglen. So you need invisibility to be that good occasionally.

You know whats even worse? A mage with high int and his 1 turn cooldown on invisibility. Ah well it ain't gonna change anyway no need to hold our breaths over this.
Posted By: ScrotieMcB Re: Isn't stealing too easy? - 24/07/14 09:23 PM
Originally Posted by dirigible
Maybe I'm just crazy, but I don't think that a couple warriors clanking around in full plate, with 0 points in Stealth or Pickpocket or Lockpick should be able to steal everything of value from the Mayor's home.
If the real-life me was translated into a roleplaying character, I would probably also have 0 points in Stealth or Pickpocket or Lockpick. This wouldn't necessarily stop me from stealing everything of value from a home, providing the security of that home was low enough, and I used conversation to create the necessary distractions.

I think it's wrong to say that certain things should be impossible if you don't have certain skills. That would be like saying combat is impossible if you don't increase your weapon skills to deal more damage, or if you decide not to have any spellcasters in your party. Things might become more difficult, sure... but that's not the same as impossible.

Stealing everything which isn't bolted down shouldn't be impossible, even for the utterly untrained. It should, however, be more difficult. There should be a sense that, the more you invest, the easier things become. The problem I have is that a single point in Scoundrel is a pathetically low amount of investment, and it's all but impossible for things to get any easier than that.
Posted By: dirigible Re: Isn't stealing too easy? - 24/07/14 09:33 PM
Originally Posted by ScrotieMcB
I think it's wrong to say that certain things should be impossible if you don't have certain skills. That would be like saying combat is impossible if you don't increase your weapon skills to deal more damage, or if you decide not to have any spellcasters in your party. Things might become more difficult, sure... but that's not the same as impossible.


I should not be able to beat the final boss of Cyseal without investing some points / money into combat skills. I shouldn't be able to stroll up as a level 1 nobody and slap his shit.

Nor should I be able to rob the richest most powerful man in Cyseal without being a reasonably skilled thief.
Posted By: ScrotieMcB Re: Isn't stealing too easy? - 25/07/14 12:06 AM
Well, you can't even access him until you get the required amulet, which means you couldn't possibly be level 1. Probably level 3 or 4 at lowest.

Let's just put it this way: with combat, you try to get the balance so that it is an appropriate challenge for appropriately geared characters with appropriate builds. Having poor gear or poor builds would make success less likely, eventually to the point where players could try over and over again and keep failing and eventually give up (even if it is still possible). I agree that the numbers should be stacked against those who aren't prepared for the task, and beneficial to those who are.

What I don't like are things like how Lockpicking works currently, where if you don't meet a certain arbitrary number you're just locked out. Both player strategy and gear/build should be factors towards success, which means that, with brilliant strategy and horribly deficient gear/build, you should still have at least a chance at success.
Posted By: Apocalypse Re: Isn't stealing too easy? - 25/07/14 12:22 AM
Originally Posted by dirigible
Thing is, Scrotie, that even WITHOUT invisibility I consider stealing to be way too easy.

Maybe I'm just crazy, but I don't think that a couple warriors clanking around in full plate, with 0 points in Stealth or Pickpocket or Lockpick should be able to steal everything of value from the Mayor's home. And then, with no investment in Charisma or Barting, sell all of that gold-plated dinnerware and stacks of paintings to a merchant who doesn't find it the least bit strange that a couple grizzled adventurers just happened to be carrying around the contents of a mansion.

I literally just don't think that should be possible in this game.

If you want to build a character who can do all of that, fine. I'm all for it. But you should have to earn it. Your character SHOULD have to actually be good at sneaking in order to steal while standing right next to an npc. Your character SHOULD find it challenging to sell things which are obviously someone else's property. Your character SHOULDN'T be able to find keys to storerooms and treasure chests lying around on the ground, where anybody can pick them up.

I agree that invisibility is a related problem, but you don't even need to use it to be a master thief in this game.


I completely agree and yet I prefer the current solution to not having the option to steal. What you want is expensive to implement, and I think should not have been to focus of the current Divinity.

But I would love to see a more sophisticated stealing mechanic and maybe a divinity game about a pair of thieves / street kids.
Posted By: dirigible Re: Isn't stealing too easy? - 25/07/14 01:09 AM
Originally Posted by ScrotieMcB
What I don't like are things like how Lockpicking works currently, where if you don't meet a certain arbitrary number you're just locked out. Both player strategy and gear/build should be factors towards success, which means that, with brilliant strategy and horribly deficient gear/build, you should still have at least a chance at success.

See, I'm the exact opposite, re: lockpicks. I remember playing Baldur's Gate, where lockpicking was a % chance of success. It sucked. You tried, reloaded, tried, reloaded, tried, reloaded, and eventually got the outcome you wanted. I really do not like game systems that encourage savescumming. I prefer lockpicking in DOS where you either fail 100% of the time or you succeed 100% of the time.

That said, I'm all for player skill being a boon to your characters' abilities. But currently being a thief in DOS is not dependent on stats AT ALL.

Originally Posted by Apocalyspe
I completely agree and yet I prefer the current solution to not having the option to steal. What you want is expensive to implement, and I think should not have been to focus of the current Divinity.

But I would love to see a more sophisticated stealing mechanic and maybe a divinity game about a pair of thieves / street kids.

I don't really agree that it's unrealistic to implement. I actually think it would be easy, with a couple minor tweaks.
1) Change sight to be a 300 degree radius instead of 90 degree
2) Higher ranks of stealth reduce enemy vision range and angle (currently they only reduce angle)
3) Picking up items cancels invisibility
4) NPCs will cancel dialogue if you don't keep talking to them.
5) Vendors will not buy certain items (silverware, paintings, etc) without you passing a Charisma check.
6) Getting caught at any step of the process reduces your entire party's reputation.

That solves 90% of the problems. You can no longer abuse invisibility, it's much harder (though still possible) to pull the 'distract and steal' trick, and it's harder to move stolen property.
Posted By: Horrorscope Re: Isn't stealing too easy? - 25/07/14 01:40 AM
I think you'd find 300 you can still steal too easy, still plenty of cheese available. By going 360 it makes where things have to happen just right to steal. More realistic.
Posted By: dirigible Re: Isn't stealing too easy? - 25/07/14 01:48 AM
Originally Posted by Horrorscope
I think you'd find 300 you can still steal way to easy. By going 360 it makes where things just happen to be just right to steal. More realistic.

Lol. I actually messed around with modding the way stealth works, and found 300 to be pretty good. At Stealth 5, it gets narrowed back down to around 60-90 anyway, due to the existing mechanics. I wasn't clever enough to get Stealth rank to affect their sight distance, but I'm sure it's possible.
Posted By: Apocalypse Re: Isn't stealing too easy? - 25/07/14 02:01 AM
Originally Posted by dirigible

I don't really agree that it's unrealistic to implement. I actually think it would be easy, with a couple minor tweaks.


Keep in mind, even for that you would have to remove something else from the game. They literally run out of money at the end. The last few bucks were spent on 2 ads and that was it. All money available gone.

Patching it into an addon, sure, why not. Though now sure if I like your changes, quitting dialog sounds annoying and 300 degree vision makes sneaking at low level kind of annoyingly hard, especially when several people are around.
Posted By: dirigible Re: Isn't stealing too easy? - 25/07/14 02:07 AM
Yeah quitting dialogue I was iffy on. Might be a bad idea, and I don't really consider it an integral change.

"300 degree vision makes sneaking at low level kind of annoyingly hard, especially when several people are around."
That's the point. Sneaking in a room full of people SHOULD be hard unless you're real damn good at sneaking. Keep in mind, though, that another one of my changes reduced their sight distance with higher Sneak, meaning that at higher levels you don't have to worry about anyone except the people who are nearby.
Posted By: MrFritz Re: Isn't stealing too easy? - 25/07/14 02:26 AM
considering stealing is basically mandatory for different areas of the game i do not think it should be hard to pull off. by the time you walk out of cyseal you are about to turn level 4 and wont have enough money for any skill books unless you steal things to sell. then different areas in the game require you to steal things while investigating to advance quests and so on.

it seems the designers thought stealing everything that was not bolted down should be standard practice.
Posted By: Lividity Re: Isn't stealing too easy? - 25/07/14 03:20 AM
I don't think stealing is easy enough, actually. There should be a "steal all" button that just runs a check of my sneak vs. NPC perception.
Posted By: Horrorscope Re: Isn't stealing too easy? - 25/07/14 03:29 AM
Originally Posted by dirigible
Originally Posted by Horrorscope
I think you'd find 300 you can still steal way to easy. By going 360 it makes where things just happen to be just right to steal. More realistic.

Lol. I actually messed around with modding the way stealth works, and found 300 to be pretty good. At Stealth 5, it gets narrowed back down to around 60-90 anyway, due to the existing mechanics. I wasn't clever enough to get Stealth rank to affect their sight distance, but I'm sure it's possible.


Right I'm using 550 lol!
Posted By: dirigible Re: Isn't stealing too easy? - 25/07/14 04:08 AM
Originally Posted by Lividity
I don't think stealing is easy enough, actually. There should be a "steal all" button that just runs a check of my sneak vs. NPC perception.

Sounds good. Compared to how it is now, the only difference is it would save time. laugh
Posted By: toniostarcevic Re: Isn't stealing too easy? - 31/12/14 02:10 AM
Originally Posted by VienxInq
I don't think you want it to be like in Skyrim where all you have to do is put a bucket on someones head for them to not see you steal, lolz.

But you can drag any of the screens (or seperating walls) around, that can be found in nearly any room, and hide behind them. That's basically the same. I too think that stealing could be a bit more challeging in this game. But on the contrary, I always found that gaining money (for the generally very expensive stuff to buy) is way too hard in that kind of oldschool rpg's. And this compensates that at least. smile
Posted By: Raze Re: Isn't stealing too easy? - 31/12/14 02:37 AM

NPCs do react to you moving their things, though.
Posted By: Stabbey Re: Isn't stealing too easy? - 31/12/14 02:55 AM
The last update said that Larian is working on a mod for the economy, although I think it primarily is to reduce the value of common items, make cool items rarer but more valuable, and so on.

I was surprised to hear that some people even steal items worth 3 gold. I mean, who has the time to do that?

I didn't bother stealing anything in my playthrough, I couldn't be bothered. Sure, money was a little tight at times in Cyseal, but after a while, there amount of loot you get means even a non-stealer will get a ton of gold. So I think that Larian's approach is a sensible one.

Posted By: toniostarcevic Re: Isn't stealing too easy? - 31/12/14 03:25 AM
Originally Posted by Raze

NPCs do react to you moving their things, though.


Huh? Never happened to me. Only when interacting with clickable things. (when the cursor changes to the gear thing) But i've never had any reaction when moving objects.
Posted By: Raze Re: Isn't stealing too easy? - 31/12/14 05:10 AM

What version of the game are you playing? The current release version is 1.0.219.
If you are seen moving screens, or any other personal property (red hand cursor) around, you should get a reputation drop. Depending on your reputation, the NPC will call the guards after 3 warning to leave things alone, and it can trigger combat.
Posted By: toniostarcevic Re: Isn't stealing too easy? - 31/12/14 05:29 PM
Originally Posted by Raze

What version of the game are you playing? The current release version is 1.0.219.
If you are seen moving screens, or any other personal property (red hand cursor) around, you should get a reputation drop. Depending on your reputation, the NPC will call the guards after 3 warning to leave things alone, and it can trigger combat.


Nevermind. It seems to depend on the location or person. Meanwhile i've had the situation with the red cursor.
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