Having a Diablo-style loot system in a game with no random enemies or encounters ruins the balance of the gameplay and also makes exploring far less interesting. When any random enemy can drop a magical item with any stats on it it really makes opening chests or killing bosses less rewarding. Magical items should be rare and have their own stories. I really hope for Larian's next game they change the loot system to be closer to games like Baldur's Gate or Morrowind, not just for gameplay balance but also for world building.

I have boots with +1 bartering on one of my characters, I probably looted them off a skeleton or zombie. How much cooler would it have been if I got those boots from a quest tied to a merchant, or even looted them off the body of a travelling merchant? It's little things like this that go a long way to making the game world feel alive.

Although I am really liking Divinity OS, I haven't felt like the world could be real, it just feels like I'm playing a video game.

I rather like the randomness of the loot. Means I'll never know what to expect, especially in later playthroughs. Static loot drops make things too predictable for me and end up sucking some of the fun out of my next time through. Just my $.02 tho.

Honestly, I don't mind the random loot system. What I do worry about, though, is the knowledge that there's only a finite amount of loot sources in the game, which doesn't go hand-in-hand with a random loot system very well. Since there are no respawning enemies or sources of treasure, your luck will ultimately determine whether you'll find items you can use or not throughout the entire game - unless you're willing to savescum a lot, repeatedly reloading before opening chests or checking merchant inventories until they have something you can use. This is something that I imagine will be especially problematic at very high levels, near end-game, because by then you'll be far too invested in your character to go through the monumental effort involved in respeccing them just so you can use the random gear you found (rather than being able to just go out and grind some more until you get random gear you can use with your current build).

Here's to hoping that one of the first expansions or add-ons they provide is something that allows for a bit of grinding (an arena, a dungeon, a battlefield - anything, really). Goodness knows I'm already incredibly tired of cracking open quest reward chests, only to get nothing but gear that none of my characters use.

And here's me again... wondering YET AGAIN why people in godsname want to ADD grinding to their game...

I've yet to have a response that made me understand, but give it your best shot...

I don't know.. I feel like I'm grinding every time I start a new game and all the containers in Cyseal need checking. It doesn't feel that far removed from smashing every container I come across in Diablo (although at least it's quicker in Diablo).

I would have preferred a better loot system, one with a little more focus, a little fewer loopholes, and lot less influenced by RNG.

I'm not necessarily saying that grinding is a good thing, but more that it goes hand-in-hand with a random loot system. Generally speaking, for a self-contained RPG like this, a hand-placed loot system might have been a much better idea (or even a hybrid system, with predominately hand-placed loot supplemented by "random" bonus items). But all things considered, a refit like that would likely take far more work than adding some respawning enemies or specific "grinding" areas to the game.

As it currently stands, it is entirely possible (and not even that uncommon) for a player to go large periods of time without ever seeing a drop that they can actually use. This can be mitigated somewhat by making sure that the party members each use different types of equipment, but even then there will always be some characters who are simply luckier than others when it comes to upgrading their equipment.

I've actually gotten close to Level 10 in some of my runs, with members of my group still being saddled with Level 2-3 items simply because I haven't stumbled over anything better - and every time I get a drop that I can't use on any of my party members, it comes with the disappointment of knowing that the source of that drop is gone forever (ie, the chest will never refill, the enemy will never respawn, the merchant's inventory is now 'set' at least for a time). That leaves me with little choice but to push onward and keep my fingers crossed that I'll eventually see something they can actually upgrade with. :P

There are some set loots, like the smelly panties, unique boss weapons, the charm arrow on the skeleton archer by the undertaker's hut (provided you didn't let him use it on you before he died), etc.


If every loot drop was set, it would be really boring

Well sure, that's why I suggested that a hybrid system might have been a good compromise. It would have assured a more "even" distribution of loot, while maintaining some degree of randomness to keep the player guessing.

Things like Unique Boss weapons or quest-dropped items (such as the panties) are nice, but early-to-mid game those are few and far between. If a player is ready to build their team around those kinds of items, to ensure that they'll be able to use one of the few non-random drops, that's fine. But that kind of thing requires foreknowledge of what the game is going to throw at you.

I'm just saying that it is already a hybrid system, with set loot and random. Just random is a lot prevalent.

I'm guessing you want more set loot, which is fine, but how to implement it? Something like all chests are set but crates are random? All containers in town are set with all the containers in the wild are random?

Nah, my initial suggestion was actually that many of the issues could be avoided by simply having more areas to find loot. The game in its current state isn't really set for something as big as a loot overhaul, and really - I wouldn't want them to do that, anyway. I do like it the way it is, despite any issues I might have with the way it's been implemented.

It's just that my suggestion toward adding a few "renewable" areas to the game was immediately met by someone else bemoaning that the game didn't need more grinding. Most of my arguments have been more in regards to WHY a bit of extra opportunities for grinding would benefit the current system.

Changing things over to predominately set loot with randomized elements is more a "what-if" bit of speculation, based on how I personally think they SHOULD have done things. Not what I think they should try to change it to now, post-release.

The 2nd game in the Divinity series, Beyond Divinity, had your renewable grinding areas feature. It was called the Battlefields. It's widely considered the worst idea ever seen in a Divinity game.

I think the problem could be solved with random loot that has a slight to moderate lean toward the skills and stats of party members. Game detects that Character 1 has high intelligence, high aeroturge, low strength, and gives a boost to rolling a staff or robe that the character can use. Unless that's already in the game? Now that I think about it I don't think I've found *any* decent bows, and none of my characters are rangers.

I haven't had too much of a problem at the moment, but I can see it being an issue in the future. There have been short but significant periods where I've had a character in desperate need of a weapon upgrade that wasn't forthcoming, and it can set you back a tad.

Why are you grinding? Do you play D&D and then demand the DM re-roll your loot encounter until you get what you want?

How about this... Take what you get... then move on? That too hard or does your OCD demand that you reload over and over?

What about the members that aren't currently in the party? Are you saying that the player will then have to drag along the party member they want to get loot? Those type of loot systems exist in many MMORPGs and are one of the aspects that are slowly killing them. Where is the fun in finding gear when everything you loot is always what you need? Why play at all?

There's an inherent difference in giving you bad loot you can trade to other players or characters and giving you bad loot that is in this specific game and will never be given to another player or character.

I think having set loot every play through would make the game utterly boring. The random loot leaves me excited for each and every encounter on both my co-op and single player games.

Oddly enough, I have yet to notice a single suggestion in this thread as to what these benefits would be.

Also, I seriously have no idea what Tanist is about. Anyone willing to interpretate it for me?

Also 'drops good for you' is good in theory... until you recognise you got teammates here, can hire henchment etc. and if it does this you can never properly gear them once finding them... It's a system that really only works for games with a single protaganist.

My problem with set loot is that after a couple of play throughs, you know where to find the equipment you need either to get yourself set up for the rest of the game or a wealth of loot to buy stuff with. Morrowind suffered from that. I'm not saying that random loot is best, just that hand placed loot tends to lead to quick gains for those in the know (or those who browse websites).

Without a down, up is meaningless. Without failure, there is no success. How does one measure without a depth of perception? The point is that if you always get something of use, then what excitement is there in getting anything at all?

Winning is meaningless if there is never a chance of loss. There is no peace in quiet if there is never a disquiet.

Understand?

Hence why I said a "slight to moderate lean" and not a "always gives you exactly the kind of loot you need." An absolutist philosophy isn't going to work here.

I like random loot because fixed loot just causes me to come up with routes in subsequent playthroughs to pick up all the great stuff with which to steamroll the rest of the content. That has been the case in all RPGs with fixed loot, such as the BG series.

What I don't like is that the system can be abused. Loot should be determined upon entering an area and included in the savegame file. However, shopkeepers should have fixed loot (which updates only as you level up) so you have a reliable source of items to fall back on; it took me ages to find my first crossbow.

What excitement is there in getting an item that you know just because of its item type you will never ever use it?

And this is what made Baldur's Gate a borefest on multiple playthroughs. Since the magic item loot was set (which I'm assuming you want since set trash loot has no purpose), you would end up having a formulaic playthrough. Rush to get Celestial Fury, get Flail of Ages, get Carsomyr, etc etc as early as possible. It's a horrible system.

Playthroughs degenerate into item checkpoints where you only progress on to the next stage when you have the set magic items and everything else can be skipped since you've got the best stuff in that area.

You never know what you will get. You could get something amazing or you could get something completely useless.

For example, just the other day I looted a chest near the two carnival performers and it gave me a legendary sword named "Peter Lee's Sword". The previous day I was playing with a friend and looted that same chest only to get some vendor junk. Funny thing is, I had no characters that were setup for that, but you know what? I started working one of them specifically for that after getting such a prize.

The excitement is in that you may get something amazing, or... you may get something you have no use for. That is what makes it appealing. If you know you are always going to get something of relevant use, then what I experienced can't happen. I would have ended up with yet another item of relevance to my party.

Hey, to each their own though. If people want static loot, by all means wait for a mod where someone goes in and makes everything static or rewards people with a guarantee every time. Personally, I place such loot systems right up there with level scaling. /shrug

Some may argue for static, but some are arguing for "tailored" loot (ie loot that considers your party and makeup)and to me that also is a bore fest. MMO's started doing the "tailored" loot systems and it ruined the games for me.

Exactly how I feel. Well said!

I'm not saying there's a problem with randomness.

I'm saying there's a problem with getting a bunch of str items when your party has no str characters, or the same with dex and int.

That is exactly my point though.

If I was a merchant I'd already know how to barter and I'd wear boots of speed to outrun bandits, or boots of strength so I could carry more goods around.

Now if I was a skeleton I would NEED barter boots or NOBODY in town would buy my cave-mould!



YOU SIR NEED TO STEP OUT OF THE BOX!



EDIT: Also, you can craft items. I mean.. how far into the game have you got before you popped on here to complain about such a thing as "random loot".

I disliked how in BG1/2 etc, I KNEW what I was getting and it was a total joke after a few playthroughs - it made it impossible to play through the first couple hours of the game more then once or twice knowing I could predict every possible outcome.

In the long run you will like random loot, if not, you aren't in it for the long run anyway.


EDIT#2: Kids these days....

Not everyone is going to put points into crafting, and putting points into crafting should not be necessary in order to have up to date equipment.

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It's fine if you prefer a random loot system, but don't simplify the argument to "if you don't like the things I like then you're wrong." There's a valid point to be made about a different system, and people are making it.

Also, static loot systems have been part of video games for a long, long time. There's no need for a "Kids these days..."

Sure, but don't forget that this game is a random loot system and all of Larian's games are this very system. While it is fine that someone has different tastes in loot systems, coming here and expecting your point to be well received would be as similar to a vegan walking into a butcher shop and admonishing the patrons for eating meat. /shrug

Its a nice tradeoff though. You can avoid putting points in crafting to get slightly better at other skills but you risk having to use worse gear. Or you can put a few points in crafting and always have on level gear but lose a little bit of power in your combat skills (or versatility).

Perfect trade of in an RPG.

Yep, a common problem with the games today is that they tend to allow you to have your cake and eat it too. Kind of defeats the point of strategy in character development.

Your complaint makes no sense. Having set items makes for a formulaic playthrough? How does not having them solve that? There's still an optimal path to take through the game just as in games with set items... there's literally no difference.

At least set items avoids the problem where 99.9% of all the items you loot are vendor trash of no consequence. If I hadn't realized that vendors reroll their loot the first time you talk to them after leveling up, and done that to the skeleton vendor in order to roll items that weren't total trash for my characters, my guys would've been using the same gear from lvl 5 to lvl 20. Heck, some of their gear was the same from lvl 5 to lvl 20... and I was running around with 300,000 gold because there was nothing to spend it on except those tomes from the secrets chick in the homestead.

There are some items that aren't random and that do have stories, Like the Axe of Draccus Rex which only drops from Draccus Rex.

I actually like the loot.
What I don't really like is how Merchants restock SO rarely it's unbelievable.
It's not even per-level, I think you actually need to do a few quests before they restock.

I have an idea, why not give us an option to "sleep" or "rest" in an Inn, and when we wake up they restocked?

You could also just edit your treasuretable.xlsm file

And for knowledge sake... where is that file? What do you have to unpack to get it? What do you use to unpack? And how do you repack it for in game use?

Since you dropped that... steps please.

I'm experiencing this with chest armor. Since level 5 we haven't gotten a single metal armor drop without dex or a single leather armor drop without strength.

It's kind of infuriating.

I think both fixed loot and/or some respawning enemies would be interesting personally.

I wonder if both are moddable. Itd be a big undertaking to go over everything and handplace appropriate rewards while disabling all random drops but still.

Weird. I don't think I've gotten any leather with strength or metal with dexterity in my 20+ hours of game time. =/

Hmm... I guess when you do obtain such, you will be doing a jig in the middle of the street!

As I said, it is kind of the point.

Now... if you play through the game and your "luck" is essentially getting crap the entire game, well... that is the RNG and honestly... a poor RNG is a design fault as one can without too much effort design an algorithm that will avoid the curse of common RNG's in games.

Question is... are you really "lucky" ie "unlucky" in your rolls, Or.... are you... weighting your results for the betterment of your argument?

If not, then this is a good objection to bring up to the devs. That is, requesting that they provide a more realistic RNG.

A much simpler solution is to make unfitting stat rolls on items rare.

Diablo 3's smart loot is a decent example of how to make random loot more fun, but obviously it wouldn't fit perfectly in a game like this where not every character gets their own loot.

I never played Diablo 3 (for many reasons I won't waste peoples time here), but I have read many who argued that the system you explain is what they think killed the series. /shrug

There are many problems with Diablo 3's loot. You know, basically everything besides smart loot. Smart Loot was however very amazing. The only real complaint anyone ever had about it could not physically apply to Divinity as you cannot grab an item on one of your characters and then give it to a different one in a different game.

However that's also why it wouldn't fit perfectly. Smart Loot worked because everyone had their own gear drops tailored to them. A smart loot inspired system for something like Divinity would be a lot more complex since loot is shared by the whole party.

They're idiots then. What "killed the series" (at least the parts of it relevant to your statement) was the in-game (real-money) AH, followed by the even more bizzare total removal of all trading. One of the few things they did right was the smart loot.


It wouldn't need to be very complex, though. You could just put weights on the characters' attributes and abilities then base the loot on that. It may not be perfect (I'm sure somebody could come up with a better solution), but it would beat drowning in dex/strength gear when your party consists of two lone wolf mages.

In fact, the ability to do this is one of the good reasons to to use the game's current loot system.

But they didn't exploit it.

I like the current system.

Don't want smart loot. If you want to get items tailored to your build you should invest in crafting.

Smart loot = what's the point in crafting?

Crafting gets you basic non-magical items and allows you to boost items. With enough crafting you can make items with much higher damage rolls than your level and then boost them further, but that's about it.

You can also boost key stats etc with jewelry to make up for the fact you may not be getting the drops you want.

The point I am trying to make however is that smart loot:

A) Wouldn't feel right in this style of game,
B) Would make crafting a lot less useful,
C) Isn't suitable given current design constraints.

I think loot should be random as there is more anticipation. After a while in Diablo 3 you KNOW you're going to get loot tailored for your class, and it actually becomes somewhat boring.

Also, +1 in this game means a lot more than +1 in a game like Diablo 3, so constantly getting smart loot in Original Sin would also effectively mean 99% of your loot is worthless after you get decent items, ie, no incremental upgrades.

You're just making assertions

A) Having all the items that drop be worthless vendor trash feels wrong in this style of game. Better design is less, better items, so that you don't just vendor everything you find without even identifying it, like I was doing.
B) Crafting is a grindy timesink that only exists to compensate for the current loot system, and - since you brought it up - feels very wrong for this sort of game.
C) What's the basis for this?


There is no anticipation when loot is random, because the odds that it will be good are too low. Like I said, I just vendored almost all items without even identifying them, because it wasn't even worth the time, in my opinion, to identify them all before selling them, because the odds that they were useful were so low. A better design would've been to make those worthless items gold drops.

For your second paragraph, that is currently the case, so I'm not sure how you can use it in support of your position since you're defending a loot system that works this way.

Yeah, that must be it! /boggle

No.

In a smart loot system in the case of DoS, once you get a good item for that slot, you basically will never find an item that surpasses it, until you increase in levels. This will happen quite quickly in DoS, and thus with slower leveling, there will be zero anticipation for the majority of the game.

In the current system, there still is anticipation of getting a good drop. You however are bypassing that system but not even bothering to identify items.

A smart loot system is designed for faster leveling with more incremental upgrades like Diablo 3, and even then it becomes mind numbingly boring quite quickly.

That's beside the point, as I don't think the target market for this kind of game is a smart loot system.

Must be, because Diablo 3 is a whole lot more fun now with its smarter loot system than it used to be. The press seems to agree, and loads of people have returned and/or are still playing, so I'm not sure how the transition can be labeled as "ruining the game". Ruined for someone with overly particular tastes, maybe. Maybe you should have played the game both ways before speculating about the smart loot system?

I just read a complaint on the D:OS Steam forum where someone was unable to craft a bow because (across the entire game) they only ever acquired one of the two sinews they needed. Because of that they spent most of the game with a level 4 bow before obtaining an upgrade.

Let's talk about how completely awesome random treasure tables are some more! I say this after visiting the Library in Cyseal, getting permission to borrow books, and finding every single bookcase *empty*. Wheee! Are we having fun with random loot yet?

I agree with OP. Random loot is bad when there is no grinding in this game. Its all finite resources, nodes/plants dont respawn, only metal 1H/2H can be broken down into components and etc etc which doesn't help in getting ingredients for crafting. Plus vendor items are randomly rolled out. I've done 2 playthroughs and my 2nd playthrough was horrible in that i had extreme difficulty in finding certain ingredients which hindered my crafting in addition to the fact that my 2nd playthrough i've done up an optimized build so i can tap on crafting only to realize i can hardly use it.

They should tweak it a bit, make certain items drop, have a fix inventory for certain items in vendor bag, respawn nodes/plants, make more armor/wep able to be broken down for ingredients or something along those lines. Respawning mobs is out of the question definitely, ppl gonna rage plus it kills difficulty of the game if ppl could just outlvl content.

i'm feeling like playing Diablo 3 Vanilla.
Int Robe with Strength requirement.

Fix loot table for a RPG is better. maybe it's getting boring after the 5th playthrough, but only a small amount of players play a RPG more then once with the same player constellation

Fixed loot... I can see it now, more complaining on the boards about how loot drop isn't properly balanced for [my character build X]

A question, are there unique armor drops in the same vein as Clobberin' Time or Braccus's Axe?

Yep, those who don't agree with you and him must be idiots because you subjectively established the game to be "more fun"! We know this to be sure because the "press" seems to think so, but lets not look closely at the record of the press and how they score games as well as how their scoring compares to the public (lets see Metacritic Diablo 3... Press 88 Users 3.9), but hey... the press knows what good games are, why... just look at their Dragon Age 2 score!

I didn't "speculate" on the loot system, I read many arguments from people who did play the game. Diablo 3 is what I consider to be the example of the deterioration of cRPG gaming as it has defined the standard for what today's generation thinks what an RPG should be. I as well as many of those who were waiting for Larian to make this game... are at odds with those action junkie click fests.




I read a lot of complaints on steam where the user exaggerates or is ignorant to a given aspect of the game.

But the real issue here is you want tailored loot (where every chest opened is a twilight episode of "it is what you need"). That has been your goal from the early complaints through alpha/beta. Larian has used this system in all their games, it is nothing new. You either accept it, or move on. Coming here and complaining over and over about it when you knew the game was designed this way from the beginning, knew this is how they design their loot systems... well... it boggles the mind! but.. hey... I guess we are all just "idiots" because we don't see the wisdom of Diablo 3's design!

Yep, it's usually quite hard to see something that doesn't exist.

Though there are a few words we typically used to describe someone who does see things that don't exist.

I don't mind random loot that much, sure empty book shelves are strange at least and I also get irritated somewhat by not finding a single piece of light armor with +dexterity on it for a period of 7 levels. But I don't really want it to be changed because what the game actually needs is enchanting. The way it was done in Divinity 2 comes to mind, maybe drop the charm part, but enhancing was decent.

What I mean is that equipment is a big part of a character build and being able to create fine tuned items you need is very important, especially in an enviroment with random loot.

You're misunderstanding. When the new loot changes were implemented in Diablo 3, the general vibe from the press reviews was that it was a very positive change that had corrected some fairly big disappointments in the game's original loot system. That they were bothering to review a *patch* at all like it was a new game (instead of just ignoring it completely as Diablo 3 is a year old now) is rather impressive.

Furthermore, I have actually played the game both before and after the smart-loot system was implemented and thoroughly enjoyed the changes. Where as you have not even touched the game and are merely going by the impressions you've picked up from the ether. So, which of our two opinions do you think I'm going to trust? The firsthand account (me), or the guy talking out his rear (you)?

Perhaps you should stick to arguing examples you have some personal experience with, as the remainder of the nonsense in your post (which I'm not even going to bother repeating here) shows that your ability to analyze other people's statements is seriously flawed and biased. Typical Tanist stuff.

"Smart loot" in D3 was only needed because the drop rate of anything worthwhile was so low to begin with. Instead of "smart loot", they could have just increased the base drop rate enough to where you get just as much worthwhile loot for your current character (in a post-RoS world where all trading is banned, this wouldn't have hurt a thing). Then you'd still be able to get items for characters (classes) other than the one you happen to be playing at the moment - a very common Diablo playstyle that "smart loot" completely broke. "Smart" loot was a dumb way to fix the problem, and by the way, I have put hundreds of hours into D3 both on original release, and after RoS release.

I remember in D3 when you were grinding for gear you'd get 8 million drops (an exaggeration, but a lot) but my friends only picked up yellow or better. Most stuff isn't even worth merchant fodder

In D:OS I pick up everything, even white stuff.

D3 and D:OS are different beasts.

I understand you, I just don't agree with you.




I don't need to play that game to understand its systems. You can learn all you need to know by reading about the system and watching long play as well as reading various comments about the game. No need to roll my face over the keyboard to see a shallow gimmick game that it is.




You were the one who claimed people were idiots.

Go ahead and spin it like you are the rational one. I am sure that if anyone disagrees with you, they just misunderstand you or are idiots right?

/boggle

Yeah, if your focus is on gearing up your alts without playing them, the Smart Loot system makes that very difficult (particularly if you're playing solo). But for people who want to focus on one character at a time it's a huge improvement to not be constantly receiving drops for other classes. There were few things more annoying than gathering up crafting ingredients (without the aid of the auction house), and blowing your resources on crafting gear that had a random assortment of useless stats for your build.

I don't know if increasing the amount of drops would have solved the problem, or if it would have just flooded my inventory with more useless items. They actually lowered the drop rate once Smart Loot was implemented.

Anyway, D3 tangent.

Exactly. Being able to get items that are not tailored to you was a part of the game. Tailored loot is a gimmick that turns a game into a shallow system.

Now I can respect if someone wants static hand placed loot, but such can be extremely time consuming and will likely result in some classes or focuses coming up short defeating the argument that random loot shorts people.

Those wanting random tailored loot are really asking for a useful prize in every box. I can understand, but it is that very thing that has seeded the bland hand-out, hand-holding, "everyone always wins!" mentality and expectation. We have plenty of those types of games. People should seek elsewhere if they want that design style.

.. should seek games that are designed to attend to that very desire rather than expecting games who have a history of a given style to fit their demands.

Well... that or they can mod it themselves if they so desire.

Problem solved, we can close the thread now.

Yes, but some are creatures of habit and desire every game to be the same. Why do you think companies like EA are so successful in churning out the same product over and over again.

It shows you haven't played the game because that's not how it actually works. Smart Loot doesn't mean you get an automatic upgrade with every drop (i.e. "useful prize in every box"). It just provides a higher percentage chance that the drop is for your class rather than some other class.

Little note of interest: this smart loot system is actually used in David Brevik's current game, Marvel Heroes. David, Brevik, of course, being the co-founder of Blizzard North and the developers of Diablo 1 and 2. He actually fancies Marvel Heroes as the spiritual successor to D1&2, despite your insistence of what is and isn't "part of the game" and nonsense about games with "a history of a given style". Kind of amusing, as alts are infinitely more important in Marvel Heroes than Diablo. And I've seen more than a few ideas popping up in D3 from other games.

Designs evolve, even with the people who birthed them. Keep that in mind every time you fall back on your "Larian's last few games did it this way, so accept it or move on" argument.

Oh, look, heated debating about the loot system in a story-driven RPG.

Are the items you're getting preventing you from finishing the game? No? Then there is no problem.

There is if it's preventing players from having fun, particularly if that leads to them not wanting to finish the game.

Not every game is for every player. If most people these days forgot what it means to enjoy the story more than the loot that drops, it's not the game's fault.

Straw man.

I never said upgrades. I said each item is tailored to be useful to your class.

Please try to stay within the confines of my responses.





Larian designed this game with the same system. If you want another system, go play a game that provides it? Maybe? You think?

Oh... neat, you played the "my fun" trump card. Brilliant counter really, I mean... it works for everything... when something doesn't go your way, call it bad design and claim it ruins "your fun" as if somehow you are the center of the universe and all games should be designed for "your fun".

I don't think that's a particularly fair stance to take. The game does have a strong story element to it but it also makes quite a big deal about character development, development which heavily relies upon item drops. It's understandable for that to be important to players as well. It's also understandable for someone to be upset when RNG prevents them from making use of the crafting skill they've invested points into, or from not being able to get the skills/spells they're after for their class, etc.

This is an RPG with tactical turn-based combat. It is not Myst or Zork. Item drops will matter as much as story.

Straw man.

I never said "my fun". I spoke of players in general (as there are many players complaining about the current loot system).

"Please try to stay within the confines of my responses."

No they don't, because part of the experience/challenge is to beat the game with the items you get, in a given play-through. And I'd be 100% confident that the game is 100% winnable, even on hard difficulty, regardless of how your item luck goes. The game is more replayable and interesting with highly random loot, and grinding/respawns don't belong anywhere near a game like this. Of course that is subjective, but so are your comments. Either way, this is the Larian style, and has been for over 10 years. Time to deal with it.

I don't believe I ever suggested adding grinding or respawns, so I'm not sure why you're mentioning that to me.

The concept of being challenged to beat the game with the items you get would be better received if players weren't so locked into their development choices. And a single poorly implemented respec option partway through the game doesn't change that.

As for the the ol' "it's been this way forever, deal or move on" argument, I think Tanist's previous statement fits it best:

The problem with "Larian style" is tha I've been using the same damn dagger with Scarlett from the Baron of Bones all the way to Boreas. The mages are even worse off.

I have no interest in further addressing any of your points since I think what needs to be said has already been said, but I'm curious about this -



What's poorly implemented about it? Haven't used it, so I'm curious what all the problems are. I know about the loss of all learned skills.

Yeah, because you were speaking for other people! You know, because we are all idiots here and can't read the past thread and see you have been arguing for a tailored system all along.

Yeah... not your fun.. no... It is for other peoples fun!!! Think of the children!

If you haven't noticed, you are the one in a forum complaining about a games feature that has been a part of its system from the start demanding it change.

Do you also go to FPS games sites and complain about them not being isometric? Do you whine in the forums of puzzle games about how they should be more about action?

Seems like you are out of your place. Diablo 3 forums ---->

I wouldn't bother, do a search for Gyson on this site and you will see he makes illogical arguments quite often. There are numerous people here that have had problems with his discussion style. Better to move on. I just give him a hard time because... well... it is like shooting mentally handicapped fish in a barrel.

/shrug

yup thatsthe only point

look need to have higher chances to be JUST USABLE, then between all the usable stuff youlll get some upgrade eventually

we dont want to upgrade at every chest, just see less crap

and maybe also avoid all the unusable stuff like cloth with dex and str that require 20 int

That's a problem with how Diablo 3 designed loot and how common blues and yellows were (a legendary was only slightly more rare than a white post RoS!), not smart loot.

Again, Diablo 3 did basically everything wrong with loot except smart loot.



Smart loot didn't make you unable to get items for other characters. It was far less likely to get a good monk weapon if you played a barbarian/crusader or vice versa but it wasn't impossible. The item distribution was the same, with smart loot only affecting the stats of 95% of the items that you could actually use.

Playing through Reaper of Souls I got items for characters I wasn't actively playing all the time.

So you want every item found to be of use?

I wonder what is going to be in this chest? I don't know... but I know it will be exactly the type of item I need!

Not very exciting, but then to each their own.

yeah between cloth, mail , leather, weapon, and for each slot

its like 50 100 different kind...

and i never talked about what you YOU NEED OR NOT

its about WHAT IS USABLE OR NOT

a cloth with dex str that require 20 int is NOT USABLE, thats a problem

a cloth with int and con is usable but maybe still not worth for you, who knows

Why should you get 95% of the stats you want when you loot an item? The problem I have is that those systems weights reward and removes the entire point of it. I personally despise those systems. To each their own though. Larian makes the random system, so it works out for me. /shrug

Well, you've hit on it. When you respec you lose your skills/spells. Combined with the RNG-based itemization, you can potentially (and permanently) lose skills that you won't find again, even if you only want to make changes unrelated to those skills (getting rid of points spent in crafting, for example, or a particular school line that you're unhappy with). It's an overly harsh setup for a system that leaves players so at the mercy of complete randomness.

Wait, not usable?

Str allows you to use str based weapons, which tend to be much higher damage ranges. Dex does the same, but also gives you a bonus to defense.

So, the thought of a caster who uses str weapons up close form time to time and works in a little dex to help in defense is "not usable"?

Sounds like what is "usable" is a matter of opinion and build choices.

If you haven't noticed, you're the one in a thread where the topic is complaints about the random loot system.

So, what's your point with all that? Or are you just throwing more nonsense out there? Check your other posts - you do that a lot, and not everyone is fond of your attitude. I didn't even jump into this topic until a page ago, but I saw your comments from the start and thought "There's good ol' Tanist being predictable and ridiculous again..".

Seems like you are out of your place. The everything is sunshine and rainbows discussion is --->

Because getting dex on high level plate armor is garbage.

Because getting str on high level leather armor is garbage.

Those actually would be fine if the game let you truly hybrid however you want, but you can't. The only feasible way to hybrid dex/str is to use scale armor which is garbage and still limits you to only dex weapons. The requirements on weapons are too high since you have to pump 75% of the attributes you get to use your weapons, and weapon scaling is too strong to not do it.

I am? Lets see... Thread title is:

"The random loot system is lazy and mars the game."

You and your buddy decided to call people idiots who though the smart loot system in D3 was bad for the game.

you are also here complaining through every response about how bad this system is, you know... a system that has been around in their games from the beginning and they specifically chose to put in this new game. As I said, you sound like the type that likes to go to places they don't like and then whine about them providing things you don't like.

I am fine with the system as is, seems like you are projecting your whining here in this thread.

Dex provides increase in defense rating. Seems like a reasonable off stat to me.



Str increases carrying capacity. Being able to carry more is valuable to some.






You can argue if something is ideal or worth it (to you), but that won't help your random loot argument as it is based on something being useless, not "less ideal for what you desire". This fits right back into my point. You want the gear tailored to what "you" consider valuable. So, this whole "useless" is really a subjective argument. /shrug


Edit:

Another thing to consider is that the more we start implementing systems such as these "tailoring loot to the party", the more you have to consider simplifying your character development so as to be able to reasonable assess what might be useful. That in my opinion takes us in the wrong direction for character development systems. One of the problems with games these days is they keep oversimplifying the systems.

Defense Rating is dodging, and with such a low rating I don't think the guy in plate armor is suddenly going to start dodging attacks because of 1 dex. In fact I know that won't happen because I finally gave in and put on a +1 dex plate armor because it had been so long since getting an upgrade that I was now going to gain 10-20% in the 4 elemental resistances by putting this on.



That's what you have up to 4 party members for.



Or it's because you're an idiot that doesn't understand how shit works. 5 defense rating is worthless to a strength guy, and 20 carrying capacity is worthless to a dex guy. Those are facts.



Diablo 1, 2, and original release 3 did not have smart loot. It was more apparent that it was a problem in D3 because gear was heavily changed and the most important thing you could get was primary stat, where two of the stats were completely worthless to every class. Smart loot was necessary for D3 to work, but that doesn't mean it can't help in other situations.

Just removing worthless stat rolls from items in Divinity won't mean that you always find an upgrade. There will still be times where you go 5+ levels without an upgrade. The difference is that you won't find a piece of gear that is ruined by a stat that could never be of use. The difference is that maybe you'll find +1 constitution when you really want +1 speed, but at least you won't feel jipped.

So you will only have one stat with dex? See what we are doing here, now you are trying to argue what is worthy in a build and what is not. What you think and what another thinks is reasonable or worth it really depends on the build. What about the player who is actually putting "some" points in dex and then using some gear to fill in, but has another stat focus? Again, we are back to "you are playing wrong!" and that is driving your argument for the loot change.






Seems like when logic fails, best to sling the insults? What about a hybrid build? Oh wait, that is right, you in your infinite wisdom have already deemed any hybrid build to be worthless as well. we are all just idiots and not playing the game right. Yep... you sure are brilliant. I would apply for a job working for Blizzard, I think you would fit right in!

I think the definition of useable is too fluid for you to outright discount combinations you don't like. Let's say I want my Mage to use shields but I don't want to invest too much into strength. Shields req start from 6 str up. If my armour provides me with 1 str, that's one less I need to invest into my build to use a shield. In fact the armour alone is enough for me to use a basic shield.

Then we come to the point where dex/str hybrids don't work because the stat requirements for gear are too high. Dex/str hybrids would be completely viable if they removed gear stat requirements and made str and dex meaningful stats. Str and dex are virtually worthless stats because they're the gear requirement stats and weapons scale extremely strongly. Basically every 2 levels is doubling the power of your weapon.

So yes, the problem is because Larian designed the game in a way that made getting dex on plate and str on leather wrong. It's more disappointing because this game was advertised as classless but the only real classless part is that you can make basic magic spells work on just about anyone. I'd have no problem with them changing it to make it not wrong, but simply removing str from leather and dex from plate would be a lot less work and do well as an interim fix.



The problem is that hybrid dex/str doesn't work. The game is anti dex/str. You can do str/int and dex/int as long as int is the secondary. The reason for this is gear. If gear did not have requirements and they made str and dex have meaningful changes then it would work, but right now it doesn't.

Putting all your stat points on the two worst stats is dumb, especially since you won't be able to use the best gear of one of those stats making the other completely worthless as if you can access the highest str gear but not highest dex then you will only use str and vice versa.

no, its straight up logic

I actually like how loot is done

This is getting tiring and there's almost a flame war about to start. I sense mod intervention soon if this keeps going.

Now, before this degenerates even further, let's see if we can agree on some points and move on to being either constructive or not there at all.

The system is not going to radically change with such a low demand for it. Screaming about it louder isn't going to make it look like there is actual demand. For that reason alone, we'll all have to live with it.

But that doesn't mean we have to live with it as it is, for that's what player feedback is about.

Now, I'm fairly certain none of us here even know how the loot system for D:OS actually works, just how it looks like. So that's an important missing piece of the puzzle.

Because any changes that are going to be made will only be minor changes, a tweak or two, of that nature. Whether it will evolve into something completely new or not is unknown (and unlikely, imho).

Now, this might just be me, but when I said earlier that loot doesn't matter that much in a story-driven RPG like this, I meant that it doesn't matter what you wear, as long as you can make use of it and not get stuck at some point in the game simply because you lack the stats to continue and have no options left. Because the game is story-driven, not loot-driven.

Also consider that even if you're equipped with a lot of orange items that are of around level 5, maybe trading them in for a blue with higher base stats, but fewer enhancements is not the worst idea. It's a trade-off and you get a choice in the matter. Larian clearly stated that they want this to be a fairly difficult game, and straight upgrades require no thought in deciding to use it instead of what you had up until then, hence make an easy decision.

Someone mentioned that robes with strength bonuses are useless. They may be useless to them, but not to a hybrid battlemage focusing more on his mage side than his battle side.

And merchants sell equipment too, not just ingredients and skillbooks. They are also meant to be where you can go trade in the gold you've gained from all your pillaging and looting for a potential upgrade.

Granted, not a very engaging decision to be made, for every slot, for every character you have, but still a place where your decision making can improve your overall performance.

I quite firmly believe in what I've just written, but feel free to disagree. With arguments.

They don't care, they already stated that if you play the game in a manner they disapprove, you are playing it wrong, that Larian made the game wrong.

Seriously, look at their constant jumping around each time you bring up something that doesn't fit into their world view. Each time it is yet another exception of why it isn't as optimal as they think everyone should be playing, that if you disagree, you are an idiot.

Think about it, the fact that Larian made the game the way they did, by these clowns own words, Larian is wrong, an idiot.

I think that concludes any reasonable discussion with these folks.

You forgot to add in "because I said so!" to really drive how logically you reasoned your point.

Oh, and "straight up" logic as opposed to just logic? Maybe you can educate us on all the types of logic out there, you know... so we know the difference between them?

Well, according to the renowned game developer experts here in this thread, you are... playing it wrong!

I personally like the loot system, but I feel like its purpose is undermined by the fact that the game lacks replay value. I'm sure this will be resolved with player-made modules and what not, but it's still disappointing to spend so much time augmenting your characters/companions only to beat the final boss and be forced to abandon your characters.

Well, at least it isn't a short game. /shrug

There is nothing wrong with hybrids. I always do hybrids in everything and the fact is that Larian made it wrong to do certain hybrids even if that wasn't their intention. When something is flat out gimped then it's obviously the wrong decision. You don't use a hammer in place of a screwdriver because "I like hammers more," do you?



If Larian actually thought that str/dex hybrids worked as is then yes, they were wrong. Constantly stating the opposite would make them idiots.

You are right. We are wrong, if we disagree we are idiots. We get it, good for you!

Thread closed. No need to discuss right? To discuss would mean we disagree and if we disagree, we are... wait for it... idiots.

/golfclap

Maybe we could get something more a middle road? I'm okay with random drops, but since this is game with a limited quantity of drops maybe the merchants could restock faster and have gear that's targeted towards what you're playing with? It might not be as good as the gear you get from drops, but at least you wouldn't be stuck using gear 5 levels behind your character.

i dint forget anything
like others did even better b4 me

the problem of loot was pretty deeply analyzed and its flaws explained, its nothing big but its annoying

Am I the only one that likes random loot? I hate set loot--there's always that one item you have to have and you end up sticking with it forever and all the other loot is trash loot. In this game you have to make decisions and choices.

They are a minority here. Have been since the the game was being tested. They are just pretentious about their view. Fact is, most people either have no real opinion or like random loot system. That is not to say there aren't some tweaks that may be worthy in the system, but the dramatic position some are holding here is a very small minority.

yes i hate set loot too

what this game would need is a random- "driven" loot

the problem is you have n stats and for each a chance like 5% for each

if it was driven lets take mail

mail would have dunno 50% chance of having str, 20% of having con, 10% res etc etc
this way when you drop a mail it would be always decent, but still rarely an upgrade

its really irritating to drop mails with sneaking,telkinesis and blacksmith

sure sometimes it has to happen but not that often

Go ahead, make mod for it. What is stopping you?

Are you lacking cheese? Better go make some. After all, what's stopping you?

Look, you guys have already figured out most of the problem. The poster I quoted explained what he wants the system to do.

So, open up the editor and look for the logic that deals with the loot in chests. Modify the script to how you think it should be, save it and then upload the mod to Steam.

I mean, seriously, it isn't like the editor and scripting language they are using is difficult. It really is easy (watch the KS video when they talk about scripting).

So again, why not? What is stopping you? You guys certainly know how to tell people that they are playing wrong. How about less talk and more walk? Hmm? Mr. Developers?

Apples and oranges, good sir.

Is Tanist still going? You folks have my sympathy.

I think the problem is the variance of the randomness.. Not going to get into the more complex smart loot suggestions and loot tailored for your class etc but I believe a decent improvement on the current implementation would be to at least have guaranteed quality drops from boss kills etc.

For example, currently a quality/high level/secret chest can *possibly* drop 2 legendaries (yellow gear) - or a potion and a white armor. Same with some big boss kills - you could get 3 legendary drops or instead only get a couple of blues.

This kind of system encourages save reloading, which really sucks - I know self control is the key, but for someone playing iron man mode or no reload or whatever, they can be REALLY unlucky throughout the game, worst case - and just have a really tough time getting through, or just be constantly let down on key boss kills - or find a super secret chest they were super vigilant for going off the beaten path or solving a tricky side puzzle, then get just a potion and a scroll from it.

Perhaps instead have at least one or two guaranteed yellows from a big boss kill / high quality chest, the loot can still be random - but organise the loot into quality levels / colour. Hopefully you understand my meaning.

See, that one I have a problem with. When everything is guaranteed, there is no point. why bother with the system at all? Why not just get rid of collecting gear? Greatly simplify the system so people don't have to worry about not getting something of value at every turn? That is the problem and that defies the point of this style of gaming.

You are developing a character. Character development is a key mechanic to RPGs. It is the entire point of its play. Story exists in many types of genres, but it is your development within that story to which is the game. That is the point of a cRPG, to develop a role within a story. The story is the road, the development is the vehicle.

So, the process of success and failure in gear reward is important. Also note that in this game, there is no set path to which is required. You can play the game as you see fit, according to your own design, your own needs, your own expectations.

So, one not need be guaranteed a certain level of reward for each encounter. You could have came late, caught the pirate crew the day after they blew all the their recent booty on women and wine.

It is the expectation that there be some dramatic reward for every action in a game that has led to games being boring and bland. I am not saying the rewards should be bland, I am saying that the rewards should not be guaranteed. In life there is no guarantees. There are failures, let downs, etc...

Those looking to have sunshine and rainbows on every encounter, well... they should look into My Little Pony games.

Gee, I thought the whole point of a proper balance between risk and reward is to be properly compensated with rewards based on the amount of risk involved (and for the level of risk to equal the quality of the rewards). You know.. because that's good game design balance.

Now, if you still think it's acceptable for a boss fight to reward one player with two legendary items while the same boss fight yields a potion and non-magic armor to another player, then the only thing truly pointless here is listening to anything you have to say in this discussion.

By the way, this is a game for entertainment, not real life. So maybe you can lay off the "in life there are no guarantees" examples? Because that's just a really stupid argument to be throwing out there for what should be obvious reasons, and yet you keep on using it..

Yes... defeating the boss and advancing the game can be it's own reward.

Why do gamers need their "good job" pet on top of that in the form of 'awesome loot or it's a waste of time'... what?

There is no standard for such. That idea came around during MMOs where people demanding they get a tit/tat reward for all the excessive grinding they did in their gaming.





I think the reward of gaming is solid game mechanics and challenges of play, not shiny loot. Again, you seem to be arguing MMO design goals.




Brilliant Mr. Wizard, so define what entertainment is? You going to be so pretentious as to claim you know what everyone finds entertaining? How about we drop the completely useless definition of what a game is and use a more practical one, shall we?

A game is a contest of rules where the results are determined by skill, strength or chance. A game can be entertaining or a form of entertainment for some, but a game itself is not specifically entertainment. You having fun in a game is entirely subjective.

There is no sane way to make a game fun for everyone because you can not design the rules and obstacles to fit every ones idea of what fun is.

An RPG is about role development systems within a given story. The goal is to develop that character and navigate them through a series of obstacles and challenges within that story.

Since this is a GAME and the goal is to play a game, then obviously the idea is to create situations where there is a chance for failure. A game without contest, rules to delineate success and failure is not a game, it is just an exercise in function.

So again, since we are playing a game, it seems that attending to the mechanics of play rather than trying to massage peoples egos or helping them to deal with their low self esteem, that we would emulate many aspects of life which also is filled with obstacles that provide success and failure to which the dedication and persistence to accomplishing a goal often gives people enjoyment. That is, those who enjoy playing games.

Though you seem to be arguing not for a game, but rather a generic entertainment simulator. My suggestion, open up a brothel, it fits your idea of what gaming is more accurately. /shrug

I blame it on a degrading society of over nurtured children. It is the society of "participation trophies" that have resulted in the belief that without enormous praise and prizes, then something is not worthy of effort. The concept of "a hard days work is its own reward" is completely alien to them.

Here is the funny thing though. The most pivotal encounters in a game, the final encounter, the last fight or culmination of all the effort in a game... provides no loot of any real value (ie you can't use it for anything, the game is over, the reward might as well be a note that says "thanks for playing!).

I guess they shouldn't bother with the last fights in these games, you know... its all risk, no reward, not worth playing. *chuckle*

Well said and correctly spoken.

I wouldn't agree that a brothel would serve as a best example for that purpose since, brothels are difficult to organize, manage and maintain with very variable consequences as outcomes, which do include STDs and jail time, if not direct violence... and you do have to pay for it, one way or the other.

but im sure all get the gist of it.


I would say that above is a pretty good explanation of the basic demarcation between two worlds. The one of the mass market drones - more or less mindless consumerism and its never ending hunger for quick, cheap ego satisfaction and base impulses rewards that ego is so dependent upon.

And the other side, where people try to reach for more, expect more and understand more.
This side is often characterized by creativity, cooperation and expectations of works of art (which games can be and sometimes are, although that does not mean "pretty" really... as all drones would think) that reach more then just supply quick, repetitious satisfaction of base impulses.


Our fault and greatest mistake is that we are also inclusive, forgiving, well meaning - which results in our acceptance and forgiveness of drones mentality and behavior, ... the current extreme "liberal" general public opinion comes down under this, ...
and so we allow them to destroy everything.

Im not saying we should go for some kind of extreme final solution, no. Thats the simpleton mentality and it always was. You cant be only completely closed or completely open. That is just extreme binary solution that always fails and is much closer to drone mentality and psychology then "ours".

I am saying we should draw some lines.
that the devil is in the details more then in extreme binary solutions.

But some lines must be drawn.

For starters.



- yes, yes, some will thinks taking things this "far" is strange or funny. Others will simply nod as if i said the sky is blue.

This statement is simply not true. Boss fights and challenges have been rewarding player accomplishments with items for a very, very long time. The idea's been in Baldur's Gate, Ultima, Wizardry, Final Fantasy, game series that predated MMOs. And it's been in tabeltops before there were video games. Kill the dragon, get its horde. It's an idea as old as gaming. It's an idea as old as capitalism. Hell, it's an idea as old as *fairness*. People want something to show for their effort.



This would be a little more valid if A) This, as state before, isn't a concept inherent to MMOs, and B) Good equipment load out wasn't an integral part of the game. Equipment is necessary for a balanced and capable party, which means without a good loot system this game's mechanics aren't as solid as they could be.




You don't seem to understand what a "participation trophy" is. A participation trophy is something you give players something for showing up and taking part. That would be the equivalent of giving the player loot or experience for loading up the game.

No one's arguing for that. What we want are rewards for actually, y'know, succeeding. Beating the boss, finding the secret, investing time and energy and thought into a task and being compensated for their efforts. And why shouldn't the winning team get trophies? Why shouldn't someone get paid for putting in a hard day's work. A hard day's work is its own reward? I'm sorry, but that's asinine elitism. You can keep that brand of masochism for yourself, because you will find very few supporters here or in the real world. Every good game offers rewards to its players. In early platformers it's a simple "congratulations" and a small ending sequence. In RPGs with loot systems, there's loot.

There's a difference between "kill dragon, get his hoard" and "kill dragon, get an item drop that's specifically tailered to suit your character cause we can't have a drop that might be more suitable for other types of builds" though.

Getting a reward, yes, but it is the drama of tit/tat risk/reward that is an MMO staple. There is no standard for such in gaming in general to the level that MMOs antagonize over.




It is a common aspect of MMOs, a design focus and goal and a much lamented aspect of their design. You can argue some games and people attended to such, but it wasn't a standard, a staple of design as it is today. Loot-centric gaming is specific to that timeline of games.





Look at the arguments. They want loot to be tailored to their character, always useful to their makeup. They think because they showed up, they deserve a prize. Yes, expecting to be rewarded for every encounter, for every step of play, as you think you deserve is... that mentality. The reward for applying effort to beat an encounter is not a reward, they want something shiny, because shiny is their focus, they have to have their trophy for just being or it isn't worth the effort to them. It is that mentality, that focus, that goal which has resulted in games that are all flashy gimmicks with lots of rewards, little challenge, little effort required.





As I said, the concept of "A hard days work is its own reward." is an alien concept. The reward is the game play, the effort, the failure and eventual success. It is the "all about loot" focus of this generation which has led to the decline of games as they sacrifice game play for cheap shiny trinkets. Loot focused play and design is a staple of MMO games, one of the most popular genres in the past decade. It isn't a surprise its design goals are favored by mainstream.

Edit:

Note I am not arguing that loot should not exist. I am making the point that loot is not the main focus, that the arguments here that loot should be balanced for everyone in the party and for every event of an equal proportion, etc...

That misses the entire point of RPG gaming.

Yep, also the "dragon hoard" was a list of numerous items to which the GM rolled a dice to see what items were present. Though these are the little things people forget about gaming systems.

Can you imagine how the loot tables would be in the back of the module if the games were all about this proclaimed "tailored" focus? Instead of a D-100 roll out of a table of items, it would be a decision tree of: Is party member a warrior (yes/no), is the warrior a single handed or dual wielding (yes/no), is the warriors alignment (good/evil/etc....), is the warriors... etc.. etc...

/facepalm

/sarc on

Hello, my name is Ted.

I want to discuss a problem I have with games and how I think they can be made more fair so people can have fun playing a game. After all, isn't a game all about having fun and everyone should be able to have fun all the time when they are playing a game!

My problem with gaming systems is that I make a party that I want to play and I tailor that party specifically to my style only to run into severe issues later in the game. My problem is, when I run into an encounter, that encounter is not tailored to fit my style of play. It doesn't consider how I designed my party and the manner in which I want it to be effective. I think in order to achieve "fun" in play, my time shouldn't be wasted with having the chance of encounters that will cause my party extreme difficulty.

So, my solution is to have the game look at my party makeup when I start the game and then design every encounter in a way that allows my party to be ideal for the encounter. This way, I am able to enjoy the style of play that I like according to exactly how I like to play the game. Again, games are about fun and entertainment, not situations where I may get frustrated due to the choices I may make or the results of chance within the game. Chance should not exist, everything should be designed to maximize my fun.

So if you would please put in such a tailoring system soon, I would much appreciate it Larian.

Thank you,

Ted

/sarc off

The starting argument was that killing the final boss and getting the loot is pointless since the game is over.

As for any relatively minor bosses loot and questions about loot rewards in general:

If you go down that road then getting the loot becomes the primary purpose of playing. Then that purpose distorts the whole game because every other feature becomes secondary.

The mindless, unspecified, general nonsensical notion of "fun" and "entertainment" becomes the holy law and everything that may bother that cheap, superficial feeling is deemed an enemy of that "fun" - and then you have screaming hordes from body snatchers taking over.

- Current state of civilization popular culture, btw. And it would be the state of the whole civilization if it wasnt for individuals resisting.

The thing is, the loot system as it is *is* set up quite a lot like the MMORPGs I've played. Last time I played Champions there were quests that didn't give rewards, long raids that gave you nothing, and long stretches where you were using underleveled items. That's sort of how D:OS is working right now. In fact, I'd argue that the randomness and frequency and importance of loot drops in D:OS makes it loot-centric by its very nature, in the same vein as Diablo, albeit without the grind.




There's a lot of middle ground here, and this thread is a lot of people coming at the issue with varying degrees of extremism. I agree that a loot system that caters exactly to the player's every need is ultimately unrewarding. I also think that the loot system as it is is very flawed. There's an ideological middle ground somewhere here that I think we could find that would be satisfying to most players.



Actually, in my experience GMs either don't use the loot systems present in the manuals, made up classless item, or make sure that there's an item or two the character can actually use available for purchase. I've never had a GM who neglected players on the principle of chance.

That's what MMO's and games like Diablo are build on yes.

And that's okay... people who like that, they get their fill.
But that doesn't mean it has to be inserted in an ACTUAL RPG, and thereby destroying the fundamentals of what makes a RPG a RPG rather than one of those lootgames.

Well, the mold is WoW when it comes to what I am talking about as eventually all games seem to be crushed by its ridiculous design focus, though EQ suffered the same problem even before WoW was released.

As I said, I am not saying loot should be non-existent, but it isn't the driving point of an RPG. Sure, Diablo, it is the focus, but then Diablo really isn't an RPG as much as it is Gauntlet with some stats. Diablo is almost entirely about the loot. While the Divinity games use random loot generation as a tool, it was the entire focus of design for a game like Diablo. You ground the dungeons over and over to see all the different loot you could get.

D:OS isn't about the loot, it is about the mechanics of play, the story, the interaction.






There is no middle ground on some issues. Either loot is tailored to the party, or it is not. That is the main argument here. Drop rates, etc.. are arguments used to generate support for their position, but it is not their suggestions, tailored loot is.





That is an example outside of the scope of the games play and design. I am not saying it is wrong, but using an outlier as a means to establish a trend isn't a very sound argument.

I agree, but the way the game is set up makes loot more important. Your capacity to function at every level of gameplay, be it dialogue or combat, is influenced by loot to varying degrees. Loot increases charisma, crafting, damage output, damage intake, spell functionality, health, mobility, and so on. The game was designed to be challenging, and because your characters' combat functionality is heavily influenced by equipment, the game expects you to put more focus on loot than you might otherwise like to.

What I'm advocating for is a system that minimizes the amount of time you spend focusing on loot and thereby increases the time you spend on core aspects of the game. This can be done in a variety of ways, including hybrid systems that simultaneously appeal to gamers who want more dice in their rolls while addressing the game's demand to have good, up-to-level equipment.



There absolutely is a middle ground. Tailored loot can coexist with a degree of randomness. In fact, it already does; enemies tend to drop items in their level category. The game also has a hybrid of static loot and random drops, albeit with a strong lean to the latter. Absolutist thinking only leads to dogmatism. These are spectrums, and in some cases it only takes a slight lean in order to appease a player base.



The trend in table tops, as far as I've observed, is to use game play and design as a template rather than hard and fast rules. But given that both of us only have our own experience with GMs and there's hardly a census or a study on how they typically handle loot systems, I agree that this isn't a productive area of discussion and may as well be dropped.

I already answered the "dilemma" of finding gear that suits your level and style and how it's actually not necessary as long as solutions exist. They may not be the solutions YOU want or like, but they're solutions, they let you get past obstacles and hence the problem is that there is no problem to address. And that is because loot is not very relevant in the grand scheme and focus of this particular game's positioning within its own genre.

Now, if only people read before posting a reply.

Loot is a tool, not the focus. Tactical play is the focus. I cans strip off all of my gear and still win a battle without my gear by using sound tactics to a given situation (which reminds me, I need to do a long play naked sometime to make my point). There is no such thing as gear checks in this game. Again, you are arguing the concept of an MMORPG whether you are meaning to or not.






loot is not the focus of the game, but it is a component of character development. I think you put far too much weight on it being responsible for successful play. If this were a 100% skill based game where the skills were directly connected to gear acquisition, you might have an argument. The system however is not designed that way. Gear can make things easier, but gear is not required to be good in order to succeed. I have been playing on hard and none of the fights do I find gear being the reason I win. My friend and I took out some of the level 6 orcs when we just got to town, still level 2, and before we picked up any gear. Gear helps a lot if you get some nice things, but it is not the focus.






Um... that is one side getting its way. You just described tailored loot. Tailored loot is not random, it is tailored loot. If you have "tailored loot with a degree of randomness", then you have provided me tailored loot, not random loot.





D&D started with the fast and loose concept. Gygax then created AD&D which was a specific rule system of play. If you are playing PnP making up everything as you go, well... that is fine, but it isn't a sound argument against the point I was making.

You don't want to get me started on the PnP systems of today. I find them as lazy and disorganized as I do mainstream gaming. I am not saying they should not exist, but I find them to be so subjective as it concerns this discussion to be useless to any logical or practical means.

This game really is not about loot. The random loot in the game is something I personally really like - NOT because it resembles the way loot is handled in loot-centric games (such as Diablo) but because it adds an element of surprise and fun to the game. And, most importantly, depending on how much a player values the quality of loot he gets, it adds greatly to the replayability.

There are various 'Unique' items in the loot tables that will not drop for you on every playthrough. But these items NEVER serve to 'tailor to specific builds' and they never should. For these unique, named drops, the item ITSELF should define the playstyle. That is what itemization is about.

This combination of Unique drops and a random loot table that is almost always spot-on in terms of Item Levels (the most general way to determine loot can be used or not) = creature levels, makes the way loot is handled 'complete' to me. I don't want tailored loot in this game and repeatable encounters would destroy the balance of all content played thereafter (additional XP that was not factored in, combined with perfectly minmaxed characters). The game does not change a whole lot with great gear - the basis and the character development is way too solid for that. It is quite apparent in many aspects of the game that the game is not loot-centric, and even if you don't like the randomness, you can work around that by making a 'loot save' before the last hit on a boss. All you need to do is hit F5.

TL:DR? 'I rest my case' in regards to loot. Things are fine as is and loot tables don't make or break this game, and never will.

What should be looked at, however, are the itemizations. When legendary staves grant Dex and axes give Int, there are problems. Even boss and chest loot has issues, I've seen bosses drop junk that nobody in my party uses, to the point that Jahan and Roderick are still sporting low-level robes and staves, Scarlett's dagger and gear have gone as far as five levels without seeing an upgrade, and only Madora has consistently enjoyed dropped gear upgrades. The exception seems to be neck items, I keep getting +Int ones.

Mages, strangely enough, suffer from gear issues twofold. Melee combatants can craft and enhance their own gear at least, but mages don't have that boon; they can't make robes nor enhance staves with mage-beneficial enchantments, they don't have tenebrium boosts and high-level spells have issues that were pointed out in another thread.

Unique loot also has another issue: there are no unique armors I've seen so far. At all.

Why? You can build an int/dex based class. You can have a str/int based class. Now you can certainly argue whether you think that is efficient or the maximized approach to play the game, but... well now we are getting into telling people they are playing wrong. /shrug

Because almost all Dex based damage skills are dagger and marksman based, require you to be in melee range and you can't backstab with a staff, so that Dex bonus is useless. Staff damage scales off Strength, but you're not going to use staves to attack in melee unless you're really desperate, and staves require Int to equip. That Dex is basically eating valuable itemization points, I can't think of any reason why a ranger or rogue or shadowblade would go around with a staff when almost all their offensive skills are based on bows and daggers.

I can understand Staves with Str, since staves can be wielded in melee (but you can't enhance or upgrade them, so....), but itemization otherwise needs to be reviewed properly. Affixes and suffixes need to make sense for the weapons in question; you're almost never going to go for melee attacks with a staff, so a lot of those status debuffs on staves are redundant unless they also affect spells (within reason, fire spells shouldn't be able to freeze).

Staves need to be looked at, basically. There're currently a lot of issues with them. They can't be upgraded without a rare gem, they're ineffectual in melee, they don't benefit from tenebrium boosts...they're basically stat sticks, and even then the one archetype whose primary attribute scales with staves can't even benefit much from them. Staff damage isn't added to spell damage, you can't use staff debuffs with spells, the ranged staff skill doesn't affect terrain so you can't even take advantage of elemental effects...

They're just kind of there. There's no real reason to upgrade staves for mage classes, if you have a staff with +Int or +skill, you're going to keep on using it even if better damage staves drop, because the staff damage is worthless to you. They don't have the benefit of actual pen-and-paper RPG staves that act as repositories of magical power, they're stat sticks that sometimes don't even have the stats you want, they don't affect spells in any meaningful way, they're inferior melee weapons to almost everything else, spells can't crit so crit chance is useless...

Basically, they're just kind of there.

Personally, I'd make a separate set of affixes and suffixes for staves that directly benefit magical classes. Things like changing mage gameplay - 20% of spell damage is now void damage; your Fire spells have a 15% chance of making the enemy flee in horror; your touch range spells of <x> school now have a 15 meter range; Your shield spells also provide your party with half the benefit of the target; and so on.

This game heavily supports "cross-breeds" like mage/wizard or fighter/ranger... so no, definitely STR on a staff/INT on an axe/DEX on a staff etc. etc. is not something that needs 'fixing'... as there ain't anything broken.

The game tries to support hybrids, but it disincentivizes them early on and str/dex is gimped to the point that it feels awful to keep getting str on dex items and the reverse.

Of course, working a hybrid requires you get the secondary attribute in your gear. ie: If you want to be a warrior with magic you need intelligence on your gear.

Please point out when Dex on a staff would be remotely useful for anyone investing in Scoundrel skills, Marksman skills and magic skills.

With Marksman skills, you need a bow. With Scoundrel skills, you would have an argument of not for the fact that up till level 15, the only offensive skills not explicitly requiring a dagger are Trip and Charm, and it's probably a safe bet that you're going to follow up your trip with a backstab.

Mage archetypes don't even benefit from staves either, staves are only used by casters because the requirements are Int based. Does nobody actually look at the skills?

Hybrids are fun and all, but weapon itemization has problems. This is most evident with staves, because staves are subpar as weapons - can't be upgraded without a rare reagent, can't be enhanced with ores, have no synergy with spell damage, inferior to all other one and two handed weapons of the same level - and as stat sticks.

Before anyone starts howling at me, let's compare two white weapons.

Shillelagh - Level 15, Crushing 63-108, Crit chance 1.5%
Astonishing Air Staff - Level 16, Air 28-69, Crit Chance 1.5%

If anyone actually has an argument that isn't purposely vague, I'd love to hear it

Dodge is one (then there is Fast track, Stealth for starters with Rogue and First Aid, Tactical Retreat for Ranger), but I have a feeling this is going to be an argument of exceptions and excuses where we get back to the point of you saying what is the wrong way to play. I mean, you seem to be making the argument that damage based abilities are the only worthwhile thing to focus on in a build?

I'm sure that one point of dex is really going to matter.

Fast Track and Stealth are nice...and then you realize you have to switch weapons again for your backstab, thus costing AP. First Aid has limited applications in combat, you literally have to be right next to the fellow in question (and you can heal/buff through those effects anyway).

You're literally arguing with me that two skill lines - one of which revolves around ranged combat, the other sneaking and attacking with a dagger while laying down CC that also requires a dagger - would benefit from a staff with Dex despite 75% of those skill line's abilities being useless with anything other than the weapons they revolve around.

I can literally think of no reason why you'd use your staff as anything other than a sub-par stat stick, and then you realize that you also need Int to actually use the staff. Marksman and Scoundrel skill users already have to juggle between Dex, Speed and Perception, and now you want the poor buggers to juggle Intelligence as well? That's basically MAD taken to the most extreme point.

And you still miss my point that staves don't synergize with anything well. Can't be boosted without a specific reagent, can't be improved with ore, damage is subpar to other weapons of the same level, useless to Int users because they don't affect spells...

It is if I am a dex/int build. It has an effect on the successful use of a spell (see the penalties/bonus on the spells?) and one point could mean being able to use it with some reasonable means, or not at all. Then there is dodge... which I could be balancing out points into dex to reach a certain level for my build. By the way, I swap weapons quite often to use various skills and abilities. It is because the abilities are very powerful in hybrid builds. I play on hard btw and I think the game is too easy. Maybe I am playing wrong?


You are doing exactly as I said you would. You are rationalizing and making excuses as why it is not ideal. Each step you are claiming your argument is correct, because people are playing wrong if they don't agree with you.

If you have to give numerous excuses and exceptions to make your argument, it means your argument isn't sound.

Just admit it. You play a certain way and think everyone who does not play your way is wrong.

Edit:

I think you put too much attention to maxing specific stats rather than seeing that max stats are not what wins encounters. It is having the right tools to be able adapt and change to your situation. That is my opinion though, you play how it fits you, neither is really the right or wrong way to play. Results are what matter and I can tell you I get results by playing the way you say is sub optimal. /shrug

You haven't even backed up any of your arguments so far, dismissing mine because I'm pointing out why they aren't ideal. That is the entire point of it! How can you argue about something without providing factual statements to back up your argument?

A Dex/Int user with equal stat distribution (assuming one even exists), faced with a dagger, bow and a staff with the exact same abilities, will always benefit more from the dagger because the dagger and bow work well with all skills, while the staff has no synergy with any skill or ability in the game except for Staff of Magus. You can't use Razor's Edge or Eye Gouge without a dagger, you can't use Barrage without a bow, but you can use Oath of Desecration, Summon X, Small Fireball, Teleportation, Wildfire, Fortify, Absorb, Minor Heal and so on without a staff. Hell, using bows and daggers actually consume less AP than a staff while dealing more damage, VASTLY more in the case of a dagger and lolbackstab.

I've been opening the game to back up my arguments, comparing tooltips and so on, while you've dismissed them on the basis of me actually backing up my arguments with facts? Have I wandered into bizarro-land?

No, seriously, please tell me why my argument is wrong. Tell me if I'm missing something. Because so far you haven't done anything more than vaguely dismiss my arguments.

Your argument is a subjective opinion as to why you think it is the wrong way for someone to play. I gave you examples, you dismissed them with "Well... ummm like 1 dex matters" and continue to ignore the points I make. You excuse them, and flippantly dismiss them LIKE I SAID YOU WOULD DO FROM THE VERY START!

Go argue with a wall for fucks sake. All you are looking for is a fucking sounding board to agree with you. /boggle

Let's see.
Oh, one of them needs to penertrate armor, while the other (through staff of malgus/tempest) does not.

If the damages where equal it would be majorly overpowered.
Now back to your incorrect assesements...

EDIT:
Also fun to read your 'dagger and lolbackstab'... did you voice your opinion in the "Dex builds are underpowered" threat. Obviously they are playing it wrong!

It's funny... I see "Mages are OP! warriors are OP! dex is OP! Mages are useless! Warriors are pathetic! Dex is underpowered!"
If all those 6 pass regularly... didn't it mean they actually got the balance right pretty well, and it's all just human error of how to use what's given to them, like you are now?

Madora does more damage with a greatsword that has half the damage absorbed than I do with a staff of magus, so I dunno what your point is. Plus elemental resistances, which you're overlooking.

I also said staves suck, because they don't synergize with anything. Don't put words in my mouth, a melee and ranged classes scale with their weapons and skills, but a mage has literally no benefit to using a staff over an axe or dagger or a bloody shovel. You'll be spending your AP buffing, debuffing or summoning anyway.

You mean like the non-combat examples you gave, which would then have to be followed up by switching weapons to something that could take advantage of your positioning (thus costing AP)? One Dexterity gives like 5 defense rating, which isn't much to boast about, and staves don't synergize with Scoundrel or Marksman skills. Trip is situational with enemies being outright immune to it at times, with your only real contenders being Charm, Eye Gouge nad Razor's Edge. Using your medical skills in combat would mean you have to teleport back and forth with two long cooldowns when it would be more advantageous to just heal them through the effects.

I shouldn't be forced to explain basic fucking game mechanics. I'm looking at the character sheet to verify this; you think Larian planned for Scoundrels and Marksmen to use staves and greatswords when 75% of their skills rely on specific kinds of weaponry?

You keep claiming "subjective opinion", but so far it's all backed up by game mechanics, which you're so eager dismiss because it doesn't fit your precious hybrids, despite the fact that staves are completely useless, deal less base damage than any other weapon of the same level, can't be enhanced without a reagent, can't be boosted or empowered by ores and don't affect Intelligence based skills.

Why are you so vehement about this? Would a change in itemization affect your playstyle? It's not going to make fights less tactical or challenging, it just means that there'd be less chance of useless stats on items.

Tell me when a mage in this game NEEDS a staff to do damage, instead of relying on all the skills they have that do oh-so-much-more than just deal damage.

Of course, as far as stats go intelligence is far stronger than strength and dexterity as a result. Strength and Dexterity are poor stats outside of the gear they let you use. Since intelligence stuff is non-gear reliant and intelligence is a stronger stat than both str or dex any hybrid that uses spells and intelligence as a secondary will always be superior to any other hybrid...

Jesus Christ.

For the last time, I'm saying that staves don't synergize well with anything. They're the weapons that are affected by the primary attribute of the mage archetype, but they're not of any use to mages because they give no benefit save for Staff of Magus that you won't even have the AP to use after buffs/debuffs/summons/damage spell. They don't lend their damage to spells, they can't be boosted or enhanced the way melee weapons can, deal less base damage than any other weapon of the same level...they're redundant for both warriors and mages. You're not going to use a staff with Flurry or Whirlwind, or with Razor's Edge and Eye Gouge, or Ricochet and Barrage, or even just to autoattack. Your Burning Blaze will be the same if your +Int staff is level 1 or 20, whereas Dust Devil will be stronger with a lvl 20 sword compared to a level 19 sword.

That's true.

The downside is that Intelligence gear looks as boring as sin, since there's only one playable robe model in the game despite Immaculates having cool-looking robes (that you can't loot and wear )

You are making excuses. It doesn't matter what counter I provide to your argument, you will dismiss it off as you did, as I said you would do from the start.

The main argument here by people is that the loot system is not tailored. What you want is the loot system to be tailored to what YOU consider worthy strategies of play. That means, everyone will be subjected to your narrow idea of what is the correct way to play.

So, my advice to you is... MOD IT how you like it. That way, all people with like minds can download your mod and play the game according to your "correct" way to play it.

That isn't good enough though is it? For most narcissists, it isn't.

It's always fun when people degenerate to ad hominems, eh?

Your welcome. You can thank me for giving you an easy out so you don't actually have to deal with the content of the post.

There's nothing much to comment on. You refuse to address the content of my posts, ignore my arguments, get bitchy when I do counter your arguments. I'm damned if I do, damned if I don't.

You seem to be more intent on making personal attacks and dismissing people who disagree without specifically addressing the issue. Everything I've said about staves so far is true from my point of view, they're reduced to being a stat stick and nothing more because they don't benefit Int-based classes as much as Dex weapons benefit Dex archetypes and Str weapons benefit Str archetypes. Hell, the Tenebrium skill you get doesn't benefit the fighter who does use staves as melee weapons, because staves don't get tenebrium damage boosts.

Mages don't need staves either. Staves don't add anything to any of the elemental schools or witchcraft, so that level 1 staff with +1 int is vastly more useful than the level 20 staff with +1 Dex to someone who relies on casting spells. Admittedly, this is true of PnP as well, but PnP has an entire list of quarterstaves with magical properties beneficial to mages (staves of power, of the magi) and even other old school games acknowledge this as well (mage staves in Arcanum, staves in Infinity Engine games, the Staff of Magnus in Morrowind, Gothic's mage staves).

It just seems very odd that items that require Int to wield don't actually benefit the skills governed by that stat, while Str and Dex items do benefit their subordinate skills.

I did address it. You then went into a list of excuses as to what is the ideal way to play. You threw down the gauntlet, challenging anyone to defeat your argument, but it is impossible to defeat it when you define what is an acceptable rebuttal.

I say Dex provides dodge and you make the excuse that it is not ideal or useful and to make certain builds is the wrong way to play. I say that there are plenty of skills for a hybrid to use between disciplines and you excuse that claiming it is not ideal/efficient to switch weapons, etc...

Never mind the fact that none of your arguments are validated as they make many assumptions and can not properly account for the variables in a given encounter.

Your argument can not be defeated. You will win every single time because all you have to do is excuse any counter to your premise with a subjective declaration just as you have done in every response to people who try here.

So, good luck with that as I have no desire to sit and argue on and on with someone who is oblivious to their fallacious behavior.

K.

Anyway, to sum up this giant battle:

LordofBones thinks INT on a weapon is *teh devil* and needs to be eliminated.
Tanist defends it by saying OS perfectly allows mage/warriors and thus it's no problem.

Then a major discussion about staves and Staff of Malgus (personally I think it could use knocking down to 3AP) including massive flames.

Now you're up to date on the last 5 pages.

PS. Dexterity increases defenses, so it makes sense for a STR-based character as well in certain configurations... despite some claim it's not.

And therein lies the crux of the matter, as I can see it. You're subjectively analyzing it from your point of view, and claiming it as an objective viewpoint. Who's right or wrong? Beats me, I'm just munching the popcorn and watching the show.

Pity you got both sides of it wrong. I said that staves were terrible because they didn't synergize with anything, they're an Int weapon that doesn't benefit Int skills, they can spawn with bonuses to attributes that don't benefit from staves (i.e. Scoundrel and Marksman) and the Staff of Magus is a waste of AP.

As for Dexterity itself, I just tested this with Scarlett. 1 Dexterity gives 5 OR to Dex Weapons, 5 DR (i.e. evade, which is difficult to quantify, you start with a base of 60, and with 14 Dex Scarlett has a further +45 to it), and a 5% chance of success with Dex skills. Staves aren't Dex weapons, so that leaves you with two other benefits, but from what I've seen and tested that extra 5 doesn't make or break anything.

Basically, staves are a problem because they're an Int weapon that's useless to Int users, and itemization has issues because they can appear on weapons that otherwise don't benefit whatsoever from the stats.

I like Hassat's TLDR summary better.

No, one point would not break or make anything "IF" you aren't a build that has any attention into Dex. Though... "IF" you are a hybrid that balances some DEX to use some DEX based skills and then relies on some gear to push it up to a percentage that is acceptable for their use, well... then... that 5 DR and that 5% increase may be part of a build that is useful.

Now if you have NO dex and place all of your points into a single or other stats, then no, 1 point isn't going to make that much of a difference...

But then... the entire game does not center around how YOU build your characters because how YOU build them is not the only way to build them, regardless of how wrong you think everyone else plays.

Seriously, why am I even bothering to explain this?

I agree with you, I started with a witch class character but ended up making it a witch/rogue because well... staffs dont have much benefit since late game you have enough spells to trow at your enemy which is more effective then the staff of magus attack. IT doesn't decrease spell AP need or decreases the cooltime.. I could have just been casting it bare handed since I didn't use the staff or saw much use in it, but daggers are nice since you can backstab people/things with it.

Diablo 2 had staves, wands and orbs useless for direct damage, in final fantasy tactics your wands were never going to do the same kind of damage as your swords will...

It's a design decision of the game and frankly not an unique one. That's why mages have spells with 1 turn cool down.

False.

Staves in Diablo 2 spawned generally with bonuses to caster stats (+skills, cast time, etc), and orbs are a class specific item that also spawned with bonuses to sorceress skills (all double-checked via google). Wands only appeared in D3 as weapons, and usually spawn with wizard-themed bonuses (Int, arcane power, skill boosts, etc) plus they directly impact spell damage and duration between damage ticks.

Final Fantasy rods also boosted either Magic Power, Element or a magic spell, going by the wiki.

Staves in D:OS have nothing going for them.

But they look pretty!

I said DIRECT DAMAGE, and my reply was for the previous poster who wanted Staff of Magus to match up to backstabbing in terms of damage.

I didn't mention modifiers for spells and casting at all.

Having actually played Diablo 2 and Final Fantasy Tactics I know very well what equipment in those games do for a Mage.

If you are actually interested in what I'm posting, I do support adding modifiers that support casters to items, but you would need to read.

My apologies, it's late and I've been trying to mod a few spells in D:OS without much luck, so I'm kind of grouchy.

As for modifiers that support casters, I'm in full agreement, but I'm not sure if that could be modded in with the Engine...we'll see when Larian releases their engine updates.

Thanks. I hope so too. I have big plans for mods but right now it's been pretty limiting

Either you understood me incorrect or I didn't explain it clear enough, What I was trying to say that if the staff only enables to use the staff of magus attack, thats quite worthless since I wont be using it since I have enough other spells to keep casting and since it doesn't decrease anything from the spells, I might as well use a sword or a dagger and it wont change my AP need for casting or increase the cooltime for my spells, SO if we had to categorize the staff as something I would say its an elemental bow, which we absolutely dont need, I wish it to give me benefits as a caster not give me an alternative bow.

Swords and dagger require investment in Str and Dex respectively. In return for your investment in stats you get usage of items that do direct damage.

Staves require no other investment from the Mage other than a stat that is already fuelling their spell damage. Staff of Magus have no restrictions to use. And frankly it's terrible. I'd rather bank AP than use it.... I wish staves had a few caster exclusive modifiers but it should not be a good direct combat weapon.

You are right I'm probably misunderstanding you, what is your complaint with staves?

Oh, perfection, why art thou so elusive?

Oh, humans, why art thou unable to even describe me?

Without following all the details of the discussion in this thread:

I tend to use Staff of Magus a lot with my witch. It is true that it does not make too much damage but it is great if you want to finish off the enemies who are already very low on health and do not want to waste precious melee attacks of your warriors. Besides, Staff of Magus is really great if you use it on mobs who are immune to opposite elements: so, a staff of magus cast with water staff does something like 80-90 damage to fire elementals/burning archers etc. It is all about keeping staffs for each element and than selecting appropriate staff before going to combat.

I hope this is understandable.

now
Staffs == Bow which only does elemental damage.

what it should be ( --> / == and, or <--)
Staffs == Decreasing spell cooldown / allowing to cast certain 1 turn cooldown spells twice / Decreasing AP need for spells / Increasing damage of the spells.

For example when you have a staff which has Air, what it should do is decrease cooldown, AP need and increase penetration of spells of the AIR category.

At least we can reckon that we're not actually discussing the random loot system itself, thus the random loot system (the original topic of this thread) is fine and the actual itemization issues, if any, are of a different nature.

I have to agree. Sorry but the loot needs a lot of work. Random loot is fine for everyday encounters but I just killed a certain elemental king (epic battle), then did a load of puzzles to get to his ultimate treasure room.

I then had to buy a special item (being vague so I don't spoil it) to open the uber chest.

And after all this epic struggle, what did I get?
1. A level 4 legendary item (I'm now level 13) - even ignoring the uselessness of the item level, because it was random, I couldn't use that type of item.
2. A level 1 marksman skill book (I don't have any characters who even use marksman).
3. And some crafting stuff.

Come on Larian, do you really think it's rewarding having this loot at the end of an epic boss battle, followed by various puzzles?

You need to have a pre-made loot table for boss rewards at the minimum. For boss rewards we should be able to choose the item (let's say from a choice of 4) and that item should be our level or a level higher.

Basically, itemization is boring.

I'd say melee, ranged, staves, robes and armor should each have their own pool of suffixes and affixes, with unique items having scripted abilities or effects.

Also, I'd heavily suggest that Sarongs should have Str and Dex counterparts...surcoats and kilts, maybe?