Larian Studios

Are there more then 2 companions?

Posted By: GamezGlitchz

Are there more then 2 companions? - 17/07/14 07:35 PM

It seems Janah and Madora are the only ones i found (Not counting the homestead ones that you can pick between) are there any others out and about?
Posted By: Alka

Re: Are there more then 2 companions? - 17/07/14 07:39 PM

PCG: Are there plans for expansions or DLC or massive content updates?

Vincke: We are going to add a number of extra companions. There were planned to be more companions, but just the deadline and production realities, that痴 too hard to be able to include this, so that痴 going to come in August, the extra companions. They will be probably more fleshed-out than the ones that are in there now, so a lot of effort is being put into that.


Posted By: GamezGlitchz

Re: Are there more then 2 companions? - 17/07/14 07:52 PM

ohh its ok, i am not upset just was making SURE i didnt miss any =) totally replaying it again on HARD! was just wondering if i should try different companion
Posted By: Rellin

Re: Are there more then 2 companions? - 17/07/14 09:31 PM

This is one of the few things that disappointed me upon release of the game. I was sure they would add more companions.
Posted By: LordCrash

Re: Are there more then 2 companions? - 17/07/14 09:50 PM

Originally Posted by Rellin
This is one of the few things that disappointed me upon release of the game. I was sure they would add more companions.

They wanted but they just ran out of time. Postponing the release even further wasn't an option either due to contracts with distributors. But Larian still work on the stuff and they want to give us more companions for free. I think many AAA developers would have just cut the content (you know: not ready for relase = cut) or they would sell it as DLC for $10 each...
Posted By: Peter Ebbesen

Re: Are there more then 2 companions? - 17/07/14 10:37 PM

Originally Posted by LordCrash
Originally Posted by Rellin
This is one of the few things that disappointed me upon release of the game. I was sure they would add more companions.

They wanted but they just ran out of time. Postponing the release even further wasn't an option either due to contracts with distributors. But Larian still work on the stuff and they want to give us more companions for free. I think many AAA developers would have just cut the content (you know: not ready for relase = cut) or they would sell it as DLC for $10 each...

I really doubt this.

I feel pretty sure that any AAA developer that knew what was in their own interest and had a "Henchmen becomes companions. Companions have a background, their own story to tell, their own goals, and their own personality" stretch goal as a Kickstarter goal, which was achieved, but failed to deliver on that promise upon release by having a mere two companions (with very little personality and extremely limited interaction with anything but the main character) and a large number of henchmen, would do their best to add more and better fleshed out companions post release if they could find any way to afford it. Not only out of professional pride, but also out of sound business logic.

Probably not turning all henchmen into fully fledged companions, but at least two or three to show that they were a) competent in that regard (something that the two current companions does little to demonstrate), and b) tried to honour their promises to their backers.

After all, the alternative would be to try keeping a straight face while saying that Jahan and Madora were definitely worth the 100,000$ investment and what they really meant when they made the stretch goal, should they ever try to start another kickstarter project and be called on their record from previous projects. hahaha

EDIT: Or even worse, just consider the stink that would arise in such a situation if the company tried to sell extra companions as DLC shortly after release as you suggest other companies would do? That would pretty much guarantee negative press.

No. Larian isn't doing this because they are a bunch of good and worthy souls, though for all I know they may well be that - I am confident that they are doing it because they are professionals.
Posted By: DragonCommander

Re: Are there more then 2 companions? - 17/07/14 10:43 PM

they should be adding some soon
Posted By: LordCrash

Re: Are there more then 2 companions? - 17/07/14 10:53 PM

I think some of you haven't understood that "stretch goals" on kickstarter are not really mandatory...

But I also think that we can agree that Larian are good guys. wink
Posted By: DragonCommander

Re: Are there more then 2 companions? - 17/07/14 11:04 PM

for the companions they said aug but could be a little late
Posted By: LordCrash

Re: Are there more then 2 companions? - 17/07/14 11:23 PM

Originally Posted by DragonCommander
for the companions they said aug but could be a little late

Has already been said in the 2nd post here... wink
Posted By: Peter Ebbesen

Re: Are there more then 2 companions? - 17/07/14 11:32 PM

Originally Posted by LordCrash
I think some of you haven't understood that "stretch goals" on kickstarter are not really mandatory...

I think you haven't understood that when you start adding stretch goals, people will expect you to adhere to the promises you make when you state the goals should they be funded, just as they do the goals you announce in the project kickoff, and it is your performance in this regard that you'll be measured on when considering whether you are honouring your promises or not.

Stretch goals aren't "optionals" if funded - they are goals that explicitly expand the scope of the original project proposal in order to achieve one or more of achieving greater funding, providing a better product, or rewarding backers more (which is why a project creator needs to be damn careful about what which stretch goals he makes, if any).

When a company says "if we get X money, we will do Y", then everybody but the most blinkered will consider that as a promise by them to do Y should they get X, not as a statement that they might consider doing Y under such circumstances if the stars align correctly.

If they want to make an optional goal that they'll do their best to fulfill but might not depending on circumstances, then they need to make that explicit.

Kickstarter is based on trust, and honouring promises is the foundation of trust.


Quote

But I also think that we can agree that Larian are good guys. wink

Not I. I do not know them personally to say whether they are good guys or not.

What they do appear to me to be are professional, and that's about as high a praise as I am willing to extend to any team of developers I do not know personally.
Posted By: LordCrash

Re: Are there more then 2 companions? - 18/07/14 01:57 AM

Originally Posted by Peter Ebbesen
Originally Posted by LordCrash
I think some of you haven't understood that "stretch goals" on kickstarter are not really mandatory...

I think you haven't understood that when you start adding stretch goals, people will expect you to adhere to the promises you make when you state the goals should they be funded, just as they do the goals you announce in the project kickoff, and it is your performance in this regard that you'll be measured on when considering whether you are honouring your promises or not.

Stretch goals aren't "optionals" if funded - they are goals that explicitly expand the scope of the original project proposal in order to achieve one or more of achieving greater funding, providing a better product, or rewarding backers more (which is why a project creator needs to be damn careful about what which stretch goals he makes, if any).

When a company says "if we get X money, we will do Y", then everybody but the most blinkered will consider that as a promise by them to do Y should they get X, not as a statement that they might consider doing Y under such circumstances if the stars align correctly.

If they want to make an optional goal that they'll do their best to fulfill but might not depending on circumstances, then they need to make that explicit.

Kickstarter is based on trust, and honouring promises is the foundation of trust.

Well, I guess your problem is that you know very little about game development. All you say is theoretical stuff. But you're kind of right. There shouldn't be such things like firm stretch goals in the first place. Game development is about tought choices and constant iteration in a highly unsecure environment. Fixed goals you "have to fulfil" are pure poison and Larian did the right thing not sticking to them. You know why? Because the game itself benefitted from that decision. What's better? A game with a huge list of predefined features that sucks or a game that cuts a few features (but maybe adds other features which emerged during development) that is pure fun?

The one reason why you should pledge for a game on kickstarter is indeed trust. But not trust in a list of fixed features. Trust in the capability of a developter to actually deliver an enjoyable game with a certain vision they presented to you. If you actually pledged for a certain single feature you made a big mistake and I feel with you. But then again you probably didn't understand how video game development works...

Posted By: Jito463

Re: Are there more then 2 companions? - 18/07/14 02:52 AM

Originally Posted by LordCrash
Well, I guess your problem is that you know very little about game development. All you say is theoretical stuff. But you're kind of right. There shouldn't be such things like firm stretch goals in the first place. Game development is about tought choices and constant iteration in a highly unsecure environment. Fixed goals you "have to fulfil" are pure poison and Larian did the right thing not sticking to them. You know why? Because the game itself benefitted from that decision. What's better? A game with a huge list of predefined features that sucks or a game that cuts a few features (but maybe adds other features which emerged during development) that is pure fun?

The one reason why you should pledge for a game on kickstarter is indeed trust. But not trust in a list of fixed features. Trust in the capability of a developter to actually deliver an enjoyable game with a certain vision they presented to you. If you actually pledged for a certain single feature you made a big mistake and I feel with you. But then again you probably didn't understand how video game development works...


Indeed. For example, I backed a game on KS (a highly anticipated sequel to a game from 2006) that was explicitly promoted as a single game. However, as development progressed, they decided very recently to move to an episodic format. Now, I - for one - do not like episodic games. I still haven't finished TWD Season 1, in spite of buying them all at once. It's immersion breaking, to me. Nevertheless, I understand the business reasons behind it, and it actually makes sense - given the format of the game - to divide it up in this manner.

Am I disappointed? Yes. However, I pledged to support them because I wanted them to make a game I desired to play. I trust them to make that game, in spite of changing the "promise" made during the KS. Game development requires flexibility, and we - the backers - have to understand and accept that.
Posted By: Singbird

Re: Are there more then 2 companions? - 18/07/14 05:55 AM

Originally Posted by LordCrash

Well, I guess your problem is that you know very little about game development.

...

But then again you probably didn't understand how video game development works...

Honestly, I don't care. I'm a CUSTOMER. I don't need to care about the realities of the producer. The PRODUCER's job is to handle those realities. I don't care WHY Larian didn't deliver on all those stretch goal promises. I only care that they didn't and that at their next Kickstarter I'm a lot warier of whatever it is they are promising.

Obviously it's not completely black-and-white. I understand the Kirill business for example. But just coming out and saying "we don't do that after all because our project management is bad" is not a good reason to me.

EDIT: Yes I understand, Kickstarter blaablaa, I'm not in a customer relationship blaablaa. But I disagree with that as well, since the Kickstarter was basically a glorified preorder.
Posted By: DragonCommander

Re: Are there more then 2 companions? - 18/07/14 06:26 AM

please dont fight smile
Posted By: Morrandir

Re: Are there more then 2 companions? - 18/07/14 08:15 AM

What I'm not happy about is that Larian failed in properly communicating the "missing" features before the release. They did so for the missing day/night cycles but not for the other stuff (AI personalities, more companions, mega dungeon).

And though KS strech goals can never be actual promises, it's quite clear that the community expected the features to be in the final release. Larian was strong in communication during the KS campaign, but they struggled at the end. As it was already said, I'm a customer, not a game developer, so I want to hear an explanation.
Posted By: Darth_Trethon

Re: Are there more then 2 companions? - 18/07/14 08:34 AM

Originally Posted by Morrandir
What I'm not happy about is that Larian failed in properly communicating the "missing" features before the release. They did so for the missing day/night cycles but not for the other stuff (AI personalities, more companions, mega dungeon).

And though KS strech goals can never be actual promises, it's quite clear that the community expected the features to be in the final release. Larian was strong in communication during the KS campaign, but they struggled at the end. As it was already said, I'm a customer, not a game developer, so I want to hear an explanation.


Well the companions seem to be on track to be placed in the game soon. The character traits are in the AI personalities have been patched in a couple days ago and I'm keeping faith the lair will be added as well sooner rather than later....unless I'm missing something about them saying it's been scrapped. At the moment I don't mind these delays, they have been busy furiously patching things really fast, which is great.

Sad about the day and night cycles but all is good. The game is great, waiting for a few more weeks for touch-ups will be alright, you and your extreme capitalistic attitude of entitlement and "customer is boss" and all that will live. laugh

opa horsey oops
Posted By: Morrandir

Re: Are there more then 2 companions? - 18/07/14 09:06 AM

Originally Posted by Darth_Trethon
Well the companions seem to be on track to be placed in the game soon. The character traits are in the AI personalities have been patched in a couple days ago and I'm keeping faith the lair will be added as well sooner rather than later...
I'm aware of this, but again it should have been communicated earlier. As for the lair (if you speak of the mega-dungeon?) afaik it won't be added at all as it had been split up and is already placed in the game world.
Posted By: Darth_Trethon

Re: Are there more then 2 companions? - 18/07/14 09:15 AM

Originally Posted by Morrandir
Originally Posted by Darth_Trethon
Well the companions seem to be on track to be placed in the game soon. The character traits are in the AI personalities have been patched in a couple days ago and I'm keeping faith the lair will be added as well sooner rather than later...
I'm aware of this, but again it should have been communicated earlier. As for the lair (if you speak of the mega-dungeon?) afaik it won't be added at all as it had been split up and is already placed in the game world.


Unless Larian have specifically said it's been scrapped I wouldn't assume it. They HAVE said they intend this to be a living project that they constantly add to and expand. You could shoot them an PM on the KS website or an email and see if they reply.
Posted By: Peter Ebbesen

Re: Are there more then 2 companions? - 18/07/14 12:29 PM

Originally Posted by LordCrash

Well, I guess your problem is that you know very little about game development.

hahaha

Quote

All you say is theoretical stuff. But you're kind of right. There shouldn't be such things like firm stretch goals in the first place. Game development is about tought choices and constant iteration in a highly unsecure environment. Fixed goals you "have to fulfil" are pure poison and Larian did the right thing not sticking to them. You know why? Because the game itself benefitted from that decision. What's better? A game with a huge list of predefined features that sucks or a game that cuts a few features (but maybe adds other features which emerged during development) that is pure fun?

The one reason why you should pledge for a game on kickstarter is indeed trust. But not trust in a list of fixed features. Trust in the capability of a developter to actually deliver an enjoyable game with a certain vision they presented to you. If you actually pledged for a certain single feature you made a big mistake and I feel with you. But then again you probably didn't understand how video game development works...

I don't rightfully know. Does my industry experience as a game developer 2000-2009 count for having at least some minimal understanding of the industry?

I've been on the sharp end of making such decisions with the rest of the team, implementing the consequences, and explaining to the guys commissioning games from us that things were not going to happen the way we originally agreed to because under the circumstances we now thought something else would work better or that the original promise turned out not to be feasible to implement. I would have thought that this gave me at least some insight, despite being away from the industry for a few years.

As you correctly note, explicit promises are damn dangerous to game developers due to the vagaries of development, but as far as I am concerned, you draw the wrong conclusion.

Game development is about making the hard choices, and given that this is the case, you should be damn careful about making explicit promises in the first place, because you will be called upon them, no matter how reasonable from your own game development perspective it is not to honour them, and this goes double when you are making promises to financial backers, because what you think are the most important things out of those in the original agreement and what your backers think are the most important things are not necessarily the same things.

And when you do choose not to honour your explicit promises for what seems good reasons to you, which will occasionally happen, the important thing to do is to communicate your positive version of this story to your backers as quickly as possible, explaining why things are not going to happen the way they expected based on your promises when they decided to fund you, in an attempt at getting their buy-in of the changed development narrative.

This is the area in which Larian has been lax by not sending out a kickstarter update or making a sticky forum post focused on the original promises and how and why they decided to make changes or omit some of them, but instead leaving it for people to discover post release, with the understandable result that even weeks after release we still have people starting new threads about where the missing features are.

It is popular to state that a game is more than a feature-list, and this is entirely correct --- which is why you should be damn careful when you seek funding based on a feature list.


As for kickstarter, stretch goals are a known danger because they fracture the expectations of your financial backers.

I'd prefer if they were less common, but if you are making them in the first place, for the love of God make them something that you can reasonably expect to make for considerably less money than the money you are asking for, such that it is almost certain that you won't end up being overwhelmed when your budget turns out to have been optimistic, as is often the case. It is even worse from my perspective when people make a promise of the "if we get X likes on Facebook, do Y" or other promises to add stuff that isn't funded, but these are popular as a way of attracting more backers - backers whose pledges will likely go towards meeting the funding of some of your stretch goals.
Posted By: Morrandir

Re: Are there more then 2 companions? - 18/07/14 12:40 PM

Originally Posted by Peter Ebbesen
This is the area in which Larian has been lax by not sending out a kickstarter update or making a sticky forum post focused on the original promises and how and why they decided to make changes or omit some of them, but instead leaving it for people to discover post release, with the understandable result that even weeks after release we still have people starting new threads about where the missing features are.
This.
Posted By: Morrandir

Re: Are there more then 2 companions? - 18/07/14 12:42 PM

Originally Posted by Darth_Trethon
Originally Posted by Morrandir
Originally Posted by Darth_Trethon
Well the companions seem to be on track to be placed in the game soon. The character traits are in the AI personalities have been patched in a couple days ago and I'm keeping faith the lair will be added as well sooner rather than later...
I'm aware of this, but again it should have been communicated earlier. As for the lair (if you speak of the mega-dungeon?) afaik it won't be added at all as it had been split up and is already placed in the game world.


Unless Larian have specifically said it's been scrapped I wouldn't assume it. They HAVE said they intend this to be a living project that they constantly add to and expand. You could shoot them an PM on the KS website or an email and see if they reply.
I'm not interested in a mega-dungeon. wink
Posted By: DragonCommander

Re: Are there more then 2 companions? - 18/07/14 12:47 PM

they did explain about the day-night cycle
Posted By: Peter Ebbesen

Re: Are there more then 2 companions? - 18/07/14 12:54 PM

Originally Posted by Darth_Trethon

Well the companions seem to be on track to be placed in the game soon. The character traits are in the AI personalities have been patched in a couple days ago and I'm keeping faith the lair will be added as well sooner rather than later....unless I'm missing something about them saying it's been scrapped. At the moment I don't mind these delays, they have been busy furiously patching things really fast, which is great.

You'll be waiting for a long time for that ~10 levels Phantom Lair, based on the latest information from Larian in response to an inquiry last week. See this thread, Lar_q's answer about halfway down .

Basically, large parts of the end content already in the game is content that was originally designed for the Phantom Lair, which was instead split up into separate areas, with remaining parts of the Phantom Lair in whichever state of completion discarded, in favour of spending development resources on areas of the game they considered of higher priority.

Somehow Larian thought this was a good idea to do based on their development situation (and I'm certainly not going to argue against that decision) and at the same time didn't consider it important enough to communicate to their backers at release that a megadungeon that featured prominently in the kickstarter and had a kickstarter update dedicated to it was cut with resources spent otherwise (which failure of communication I really don't understand).
Posted By: Morrandir

Re: Are there more then 2 companions? - 18/07/14 12:59 PM

Originally Posted by DragonCommander
they did explain about the day-night cycle

Originally Posted by Morrandir
What I'm not happy about is that Larian failed in properly communicating the "missing" features before the release. They did so for the missing day/night cycles but not for the other stuff (AI personalities, more companions, mega dungeon).
Posted By: LordCrash

Re: Are there more then 2 companions? - 18/07/14 01:00 PM

Originally Posted by Peter Ebbesen


I'd prefer if they were less common, but if you are making them in the first place, for the love of God make them something that you can reasonably expect to make for considerably less money than the money you are asking for, such that it is almost certain that you won't end up being overwhelmed when your budget turns out to have been optimistic, as is often the case. It is even worse from my perspective when people make a promise of the "if we get X likes on Facebook, do Y" or other promises to add stuff that isn't funded, but these are popular as a way of attracting more backers - backers whose pledges will likely go towards meeting the funding of some of your stretch goals.

Money was not the problem here. It was the question if you stick to these goals or if you substitute them for something else which probably benefits the game in general.

If anything time was the pressing issue but not money, at least for the companions.

The day/night cycle is the only goal I would agree on that they might overestimated their capabilites - and underestimated the work it would require. But they explained that in a kickstarter update for what it's worth.
Posted By: Morrandir

Re: Are there more then 2 companions? - 18/07/14 01:02 PM

Originally Posted by Peter Ebbesen
You'll be waiting for a long time for that ~10 levels Phantom Lair, based on the latest information from Larian in response to an inquiry last week. See this thread, Lar_q's answer about halfway down.
In case you din't know, you can link to a posting directly by using the URL that the little icon left of the posting's topic is referring to.
Posted By: Peter Ebbesen

Re: Are there more then 2 companions? - 18/07/14 01:14 PM

Originally Posted by Morrandir
Originally Posted by Peter Ebbesen
You'll be waiting for a long time for that ~10 levels Phantom Lair, based on the latest information from Larian in response to an inquiry last week. See this thread, Lar_q's answer about halfway down.
In case you din't know, you can link to a posting directly by using the URL that the little icon left of the posting's topic is referring to.

I didn't know the correct syntax for it, but now I do. Thank you. smile
Posted By: Jito463

Re: Are there more then 2 companions? - 18/07/14 02:36 PM

Originally Posted by Morrandir
What I'm not happy about is that Larian failed in properly communicating the "missing" features before the release. They did so for the missing day/night cycles but not for the other stuff (AI personalities, more companions, mega dungeon).


I will concur with this statement. While I'm not exactly miffed about it like some others, I do recognize this nevertheless. My best estimation is that they simply overworked themselves to finish the game, and some details (like the dungeon and the companions) simply fell by the wayside when it came time to update the KS backers.

It's not an ideal situation, by any means, but it is understandable. Their primary focus was finishing the game, and so they didn't give as much thought to informing us about the changes they were making. Hopefully, future endeavors that involve KS will be handled more smoothly. Perhaps Swen can hire/assign a KS project manager to maintain the communication properly.
Posted By: LordCrash

Re: Are there more then 2 companions? - 18/07/14 02:53 PM

Originally Posted by Jito463
Originally Posted by Morrandir
What I'm not happy about is that Larian failed in properly communicating the "missing" features before the release. They did so for the missing day/night cycles but not for the other stuff (AI personalities, more companions, mega dungeon).


I will concur with this statement. While I'm not exactly miffed about it like some others, I do recognize this nevertheless. My best estimation is that they simply overworked themselves to finish the game, and some details (like the dungeon and the companions) simply fell by the wayside when it came time to update the KS backers.

It's not an ideal situation, by any means, but it is understandable. Their primary focus was finishing the game, and so they didn't give as much thought to informing us about the changes they were making. Hopefully, future endeavors that involve KS will be handled more smoothly. Perhaps Swen can hire/assign a KS project manager to maintain the communication properly.


Well, I can understand Larian. They even probably were silent on purpose. It's marketing. But also we gamers and the internet are to blame. Why is that so?

Just think about Larian announced shortly before release that features X and Y didn't make it to the final release. What would have been the effects and results of such a statement? There would have been the high risk of some serious complaining, whining and flamebaiting on the internet. No developer who is dependent on word-of-mouth can actually want to have a shitstorm at release, from both people on forums and press who write about that "missing stuff" right before release. It's the behaviour of us gamers nowadays, our unability to cope with such situations with reason. Also nobody who wants to sell a product tries to get some negative press right at release. From a purely theoretical perspective it would have been "nice" to have a clear and honest public statement of Larian about the missing stuff. But from a practical perspective it was probably better to not doing so. Even as a gamer I can enjoy a game more without thinking about negative elements while playing. It's a different if I play a game with positive or negative thoughts in mind. There is a big difference in an experience in which I think "Wow, that's a cool feature." and an experience in which I think "Hm, this feature is missing." We humans are easily conquered by our feelings and we gamers tend to negativity literally without limits. That's the reason for shitstorms on the internet or such ridiculous exaggerations like the "graphics discussion" in Watch_Dogs which let to hundreds of zero points reviews on metacritic. Honestly, i can't blame any developer for trying to prevent such damaging situations. Sometimes it's better to be a bit less transparent, not because you want to hide something but because the effects are probably far worse than the actual issue deserves.

It honors Larian that they at least try to deliver on their promises (or rather "goals" as the wording stretch goal implies) after release and that they talked about the issues on forums. They even openly admitted that they couldn't deliver on the day/night goal. It's very easy to criticise if you don't have to lose anything, if your life and job and future isn't at stake. But Larian depend on the success of D:OS so of course they try to offer both a great product and they try to prevent negative press. Most big publishers would never even talk about cut features though. Let's just be happy for a second that Larian is not like that. Sure, they want to earn their daily bread with D:OS but they also want to do the right thing - at least that's my opinion. wink
Posted By: Peter Ebbesen

Re: Are there more then 2 companions? - 18/07/14 03:39 PM

Originally Posted by LordCrash

It honors Larian that they at least try to deliver on their promises (or rather "goals" as the wording stretch goal implies)

You don't get off that easily: The original kickstarter is also a goal.

A stretch goal is neither more nor less of a promise of what the kickstarter starter will do than the original goals, it is merely an additional goal for a certain funding target.

https://www.kickstarter.com/help/faq/creator+questions#faq_50035

If you consider any of the goals announced in a kickstarter as promises to the backers (including the original kickstarter goal(s)), you should consider all of them to be so rather than picking and choosing to fit your narrative.

Now, legally, the only things in a kickstarter that (currently) counts as promises are the rewards promised to backers, so it is certainly possible to take the standpoint that nothing that is stated about the project to be made in the kickstarter should be taken as a promise so long as you keep it away from the reward tiers, and that regardless of what is actually made - so long as what is explicitly stated in the reward tiers is carried out, all promises have been fulfilled. This would be an extreme position, however, and not one shared by most backers, as the majority expect that the goals stated in the kickstarter are actually what will be done should funding occur.

So if you think it honours them to try to deliver on their stretch goals, presumably you also think it honours them that they delivered on any part of D:OS that was mentioned in the original goal.

I think this is a good game. I think that, overall, Larian has done pretty well with their kickstarter. And though I feel they have failed in communicating properly with respect to their failure to achieve goals, I am hopeful that they've learned valuable lessons from that in case they ever want to start another kickstarter project.

But I must admit that your idea that we should honour and praise Larian for trying post-release to deliver on announced funded goals that they failed to deliver upon release truly baffles me.
Posted By: LordCrash

Re: Are there more then 2 companions? - 18/07/14 04:29 PM

Originally Posted by Peter Ebbesen

But I must admit that your idea that we should honour and praise Larian for trying post-release to deliver on announced funded goals that they failed to deliver upon release truly baffles me.


Perhaps I just don't share your feel of entitlement. Maybe we've just backed the project on kickstarter for different reasons. Maybe you just have little empathy and understanding for other people in general. I don't know.

I say it honestly: I don't give a shit about those stretch goals. Not because I dislike their premise but because that's not the reason why I backed the kickstarter in general. I've backed the project because I thought that free and transparent game development should have a chance in our AAA-company gaming industry. I've backed the project becasue I thought that Larian were able to create a good game once freed from corporate chains. And they did exactly that. I don't see kickstarter as a mere deal, I see it as a way of supporting people and stuff I see worthy off my money. Kickstarter is as much about donations as about funding. It's not an investment and if you see kickstarter like that I feel a bit sorry for you. Maybe you value your own money and contribution a bit too high in general, that's at least my impression...

And I honor them because compared to the "industry standard" they do a lot more. They want to create more stuff even though the game is already "finished", without additional charging, not only for the 20,000 kickstarter backers but also for the 200,000 or more regular customer to whom they never gave any promise or whatsover. Most of the other companies in the industry would have just cut the product short or release paid DLC afterwards (e.g. additional companions). In an industry in which paid DLC and microtransactions are all around I honor devs who want to improve on their product and who want to make their customers happy without asking for your money again. And I acknowledge both their quality product and their working ethics. It's not like they didn't want to deliver on those stretch goals, not at all. They just couldn't deliver on every goal in time which is a common issue in game development. You - as a game developer - should know that best.

And thanks for ignoring the whole rest of my post about communication and effects..."You don't get off that easily" you would probably say. I say cherry-picking... wink
Posted By: Peter Ebbesen

Re: Are there more then 2 companions? - 18/07/14 05:37 PM

Originally Posted by LordCrash

Perhaps I just don't share your feel of entitlement. Maybe we've just backed the project on kickstarter for different reasons. Maybe you just have little empathy and understanding for other people in general. I don't know.

Perhaps I just don't share your feeling of gratitude over people doing what they've promised to do in order to obtain funding, and consider this normal behaviour and nothing especially praiseworthy. Maybe we've got considerably different ideas of what kickstarter promises entail. Maybe you are a ten kilometer tall purple invisible accordion-playing smurf, that likes to belittle people that disagree with you. I don't know.

[skipped a paragraph praising Larian, noting that LordCrash didn't care about stretch goals, and presenting LordCrash as a true philanthropist supporting a worthy cause.]

Quote

And I honor them because compared to the "industry standard" they do a lot more. They want to create more stuff even though the game is already "finished", without additional charging, not only for the 20,000 kickstarter backers but also for the 200,000 or more regular customer to whom they never gave any promise or whatsover.

See the above. I can admire people who do more, but I expect people to live up to their words.

Quote

Most of the other companies in the industry would have just cut the product short or release paid DLC afterwards (e.g. additional companions).

Objection!

Given the currently low number of completed crowd-funded games in the industry, it seems very unlikely that you have a single example of a crowd-funded game where something promised as a stretch goal that was fully funded was instead released as paid DLC, and extremely unlikely that you have an example of that with companions.

Which means that you are more likely here thinking of comparing a crowd-funded game, where such companions have been promised to backers as part of the game for reaching a certain funding target, with non-crowdfunded games, where players might very well have such wishes, but would have no reasonable expectation of it. In the latter case it would be entirely reasonable to expect such companions as paid DLC, in the former not.

Quote

In an industry in which paid DLC and microtransactions are all around I honor devs who want to improve on their product and who want to make their customers happy without asking for your money again.

So do I. I just disagree with you that that is what is going on here.

I see it as sound business logic given the circumstances, namely that nobody but the most blinkered would consider the current two companions and umpteen henchmen in the game to fulfill the explicit "Henchmen becomes companions" stretch goal as presented in the kickstarter updates during the kickstarter funding period.


Quote

And I acknowledge both their quality product and their working ethics. It's not like they didn't want to deliver on those stretch goals, not at all. They just couldn't deliver on every goal in time which is a common issue in game development. You - as a game developer - should know that best.

If there is one thing I do not doubt, it is that they have done their best and would have loved to do even better. That is the one thing that is common in all teams I've worked with and otherwise known of. You do the best you can under the circumstances you labour under....

...and you accept that what you get measured by is not how hard you worked or how well you coped with adversity (because there's bloody well always something that goes wrong), but on the quality of the product and on how you honoured your promises, if you made any.

Quote

And thanks for ignoring the whole rest of my post about communication and effects..."You don't get off that easily" you would probably say. I say cherry-picking... wink

The rest of your post wasn't directly relevant to the points I discussed and hence I saw little point in quoting your wall of text as a prelude to my own wall of text, as I didn't see how that would help anybody, but would only obfuscate the issue.
Posted By: Jito463

Re: Are there more then 2 companions? - 18/07/14 06:14 PM

[Linked Image]
Posted By: Peter Ebbesen

Re: Are there more then 2 companions? - 18/07/14 06:28 PM

Good point, Jito463. Perhaps it is time to stop our posturing and devote some time to cooling down. smile
© 2020 Larian Studios forums