Larian Studios
Posted By: tx3000 I refuse to coop with people who use LW/GC - 06/08/14 10:39 PM
I'm so sick and tired of joining people or having people join me with A Lone Wolf/Glass Cannon build. It's a stupid overpowered combo that completely wrecks the game. I like to play and enjoy battles and even die (Yes dying shows you what you need to work on) But this Lone Wolf Glass Cannon build is seriously for lazy brain dead people who don't want to take the time to play.

So far every single person I encounter have nothing but the same two talents and it's so damn annoying and disgusting.

This game is turning into Diablo 2 where no one can think for themselves when it comes to builds and no one uses anything else until it gets to the point if you do anything else, you're now a noob and people say learn to play. What a bunch of childish douche bags.

There are so many other things to experiment with and instead what to people do, they all run to the same Lone Wolf/Glass Cannon, as if nothing else works or exists.

I personally think Glass Cannon Sucks, I get the same exact result from Casting haste without the health loss.
You are aware that you have less AP with lonewolf+glass cannon than 2 individual characters would have combined. And easy and normal less HP as well.

Besides that people can not join your game with their builds and no one wants to join yours anyway :p

Lastly your comment about haste is plain and simply ignorant. +4 AP is different from getting +8 AP from haste, right? Glass Cannon will double the AP from haste too. ;-)
I totally agree. I refuse to use glass cannon any more and just modded my haste to give an extra 2 recovery/max AP per level (and, of course, a persistent effect to avoid having to cast it every few turns).
Originally Posted by Apocalypse
You are aware that you have less AP with lonewolf+glass cannon than 2 individual characters would have combined. And easy and normal less HP as well.

And you do realize this topic isn't about what you're opinion is.

Originally Posted by Apocalypse
Besides that people can not join your game with their builds and no one wants to join yours anyway :p

NO DUH I never said with their characters did I..Quit assuming ...Talk about dense.

Originally Posted by Apocalypse
Lastly your comment about haste is plain and simply ignorant. +4 AP is different from getting +8 AP from haste, right? Glass Cannon will double the AP from haste too. ;-)

I'm very well informed on how GC works thanks I don't need a lecture. You're explanation about how GC works is one of the main reasons I cannot stand that Talent along with the people who use it.

I said MY character with Haste does exactly what Glass Cannon Does. and you said nope and started with the AP nonsense difference. And that proves my point about Glass Cannon being for mindless brain dead players who don't know how to put together an actual class that works.

Sorry but I managed to figured out a way to make my character have the equivalent of GC in both AP and Damage without it.

Glass Cannon is only effective in battles and when you look at it as a whole GC with haste is useless since the max AP any character can have is 20 and almost no one has that until near the end of the game if they even wind up having that at all. The fact is most characters have a maximum of 12-14 AP for most of the game, So Haste Plus the base will always max out or just about max out a characters AP every turn anyway.

So you saying it CG doubles from haste may be a fact but it's stupid for all the reasons I just posted. It literally doesn't do anything except cancel out the haste...And as far as GC goes... Why would anyone bother to take a loss on HP for absolutely no reason.

The point to this topic was to explain how the Lone Wolf Glass Cannon Wrecks the game and the people that use it don't take the time to play so they don't understand it, (Which you proved my point on.) but furthermore to say I don't want to tag along with people who don't want to actually play the game.
Originally Posted by tx3000
Glass Cannon is only effective in battles and when you look at it as a whole GC with haste is useless since the max AP any character can have is 20 and almost no one has that until near the end of the game if they even wind up having that at all. The fact is most characters have a maximum of 12-14 AP for most of the game, So Haste Plus the base will always max out or just about max out a characters AP every turn anyway.


You are wrong. Haste increases max AP by 4 (8 if GC) and recovery AP by 3 (6 if GC). Thus, haste will never cause you to max out AP, with or without GC, unless you were maxing out AP per turn without haste anyway, since the bonus recovery AP is less than the bonus max AP.
Originally Posted by eskuche
You are wrong. Haste increases max AP by 4 (8 if GC) and recovery AP by 3 (6 if GC). (You're correct regarding Recovery AP being +6 under Haste.) Thus, haste will never cause you to max out AP, with or without GC, unless you were maxing out AP per turn without haste anyway, since the bonus recovery AP is less than the bonus max AP.
You are wrong. Haste increases max AP by 4... and still by 4, even if GC. So it is possible to "waste" AP with Haste, because 6 is more than 4. However, as long as your max AP is at least 2 more than your recovery AP, this is avoidable. You generally want a larger buffer than that, however, so that you can save 1 or 2 AP from previous turns without wasting them; having a max equal to recovery +3 or recovery +4 is usually best.
Oops, you are right. I recant! I guess this means if you're using haste with GC you should have CON = 3 + SPD or something like that.
Originally Posted by eskuche
Oops, you are right. I recant! I guess this means if you're using haste with GC you should have CON = 3 + SPD or something like that.
At least Speed +2. With GC, I normally pump Con until Con=Speed+4, then pump speed until Speed=Con-2, then pump Con again.

But we digress. The thread's original topic is, essentially, complaining about partying with people who use Lone Wolf and/or Glass Cannon. In my opinion, Lone Wolf isn't overpowered at all, but Glass Cannon definitely is, and I could definitely see how co-op with someone using GC, when you don't, could make you very aware of that imbalance, as they get these really long turns doing everything under the sun, while your non-overpowered character feels meek in comparison. Not to mention the whole "same partner every time" feeling.

So yeah, Glass Cannon needs to be beaten with a nerf bat. Obviously. Hopefully that would improve build diversity to the metagame and fix OP's problem.
Originally Posted by ScrotieMcB
So yeah, Glass Cannon needs fixing. Obviously. Hopefully that would fix OP's problem.


I just want to clear up something on my end. I don't have a problem with the skill itself and people can use whatever they want. Lone wolf itself is fine because it doesn't break the game. It's glass cannon itself or the combination of the two and the people using them, that is the issue.

Now don't get me wrong, people can play however they want. What I have a problem with, is how it's literally become the only skill people I encounter ever use, and then the people that use it say it's the only way to play the game and if you don't use it, you suck, or learn to play, or some other stupid thing like that. It's basically turned people into idiots and allowed them to turn a really interesting game into a point and click unstoppable piece of garbage,

If I don't want to be in someones game or have them in my game I can easily just exit the game, it's the fact that when I go to play a game I want to actually PLAY the game, and not cheese my way through with a mindless plow through and pretty much never find anyone to actually enjoy the game with in coop.

To solve the Glass Cannon problem it just shouldn't be available in coop at all. it would force the people using it to either really learn how to play or it would stop them from going online if that's the only way they think the game is playable, and then I wouldn't have to keep running into them.

I hope people can understand where I'm coming from.
How is someone "joining with a glass cannon/lone wolf build"? They don't get to bring characters from elsewhere into your save.

The only way for it to happen is to play for several levels with them in your game, and if you're letting random people join your game and play for several levels without any kind of do/don't discussion, turning to a specific build is the least of the things they could be doing to that save.
Originally Posted by NeutroniumDragon
How is someone "joining with a glass cannon/lone wolf build"? They don't get to bring characters from elsewhere into your save.

Sorry...

I should have clarified that whether I join them or they join me, I only play from the character creation screen.

So I ask people right out what they're going to pick so we can make builds to support each other.
Originally Posted by tx3000
Now don't get me wrong, people can play however they want. What I have a problem with, is how it's literally become the only skill people I encounter ever use, and then the people that use it say it's the only way to play the game and if you don't use it, you suck, or learn to play, or some other stupid thing like that. It's basically turned people into idiots and allowed them to turn a really interesting game into a point and click unstoppable piece of garbage,
Well, if the only thing which mattered in the game was being as powerful as possible -- don't forget the "if" -- then not taking Glass Cannon would indeed be a flat-out mistake. If you combine that with being a rude misanthrope, you get "you suck, learn to play."

Of course, in any proper RPG, playing your role is also important, not just gaming the system as hard as you can, so them telling you such things reveals something of their mindset (beyond the obvious rudeness). I understand you don't think Glass Cannon is all that powerful, but... it really is all that powerful, which is why so, so many people use it. Making it less powerful would encourage diversity, because the concepts of playing your role and trying to be as powerful as possible shouldn't be mutually exclusive.
The huge hit to Vitality is a major downside to Glass Cannon that I feel does compensate for the AP boost it gives. A character with it ends up having to go far more heavily into Constitution than would otherwise be necessary at the expense of simply having a higher Speed. Higher Speed improves a lot of other things - including initiative and first-turn APs, which will often make or break the party in a serious battle.

Yes, you can use Lone Wolf to partly offset the loss, but it must be understood that Lone Wolf is an overall power decrease for the party. Two characters are stronger than a slightly-better single one, especially once CC becomes commonplace. In multiplayer it does have some convenience value since it reduces the amount of waiting and management a person has to do, and people might be drawn to take it for that reason, but it still comes at the expense of overall power.
This is the nature of grouping with randoms in almost any online game. I don't see a problem with it either, when playing with others I use whatever is optimal so as not to slow things down. And LW in particular allows for a more smooth co-op experience since there're less characters taking separate turns.

When playing with someone I know personally I might mess around more. Although I really don't find many builds with less powerful talent choices that much more interesting to play in D:OS. I still play LW/GC with my brother even though we could be using anything.

Originally Posted by ScrotieMcB
I understand you don't think Glass Cannon is all that powerful, but...

UMM I never said that in any way shape or form so I don't know where you got that from. I actually said the exact opposite.

If you go back and read through everything I said, you will see I said it breaks the game BECAUSE IT IS TOO POWERFUL and it's why I refuse to coop with people that have it/going to use it.
Originally Posted by tx3000
I personally think Glass Cannon Sucks, I get the same exact result from Casting haste without the health loss.


Originally Posted by tx3000
UMM I never said that in any way shape or form so I don't know where you got that from. I actually said the exact opposite.

If you go back and read through everything I said, you will see I said it breaks the game BECAUSE IT IS TOO POWERFUL and it's why I refuse to coop with people that have it/going to use it.


Edit: tags
Originally Posted by eskuche
Originally Posted by tx3000
I personally think Glass Cannon Sucks, I get the same exact result from Casting haste without the health loss.


Originally Posted by tx3000
UMM I never said that in any way shape or form so I don't know where you got that from. I actually said the exact opposite.

If you go back and read through everything I said, you will see I said it breaks the game BECAUSE IT IS TOO POWERFUL and it's why I refuse to coop with people that have it/going to use it.


Edit: tags


How in the world do people seriously become so stupid to the point they cannot even decipher a sentence or what was said and just take it out of context and then not even put the context it's being used in in the quote?

Two things:

1. Personally saying something sucks doesn't make it actually suck. I personally think Sports suck, that doesn't mean they actually do.

2. The context I used Glass Cannon Sucks in was in 2 ways
1. It's so powerful it sucks because it destroys the game. (It sucks because they got a better player than us)
2. The Health loss in Glass Cannon sucks...because it does.

You just didn't bother to take the time to understanding the context I was using, which is why you think what i said is incorrect. But as you can see I'm perfectly fine in what i was saying, it was you that was having the problem

And don't try and play victim with how I'm talking to you in this reply because you quoted me and took what I said out of context to try and show I contradicted myself..So you did it to be an ass

Next time you want to try and point out what you think is stupid, I suggest that asking what I meant first, instead of quoting me out of context and posting things that I'm just going to make you look stupid on.
Originally Posted by NeutroniumDragon
The huge hit to Vitality is a major downside to Glass Cannon that I feel does compensate for the AP boost it gives.
Not even close. A character with 5 Speed and Glass Cannon has as much recovery AP as a character with 17 Speed. 7 Speed + GC is roughly equivalent to 21 Speed. Those are stupidly high numbers, and all GC asks in return is that you throw some points in Constitution instead. Considering the massive savings in Speed, that's no problem. If you take your previous Speed investment, toss it in Constitution instead, and take GC, you will have a stronger character every single time.

Also, Leadership provides crazy bonuses to Initiative, which greatly offsets any need to pump it further with stats. This is actually something which should be looked into, because Leadership makes other Initiative boosts mostly meaningless.

GC is overpowered. And not a little, it's more powerful than any other talent by a country mile. It is game-warping.

When it comes to Lone Wolf, I feel your appraisal is fairly accurate.
Originally Posted by tx3000

Next time you want to try and point out what you think is stupid, I suggest that asking what I meant first, instead of quoting me out of context and posting things that I'm just going to make you look stupid on.


Sorry, I am not smart enough to follow your argument.

Originally Posted by ScrotieMcB
Not even close. A character with 5 Speed and Glass Cannon has as much recovery AP as a character with 17 Speed. 7 Speed + GC is roughly equivalent to 21 Speed. Those are stupidly high numbers, and all GC asks in return is that you throw some points in Constitution instead. Considering the massive savings in Speed, that's no problem. If you take your previous Speed investment, toss it in Constitution instead, and take GC, you will have a stronger character every single time.


Not sure, but I think you would need to crunch the numbers on this one. I'm not saying that GC isn't overpowered, but let's think about the 5 SPD + GC vs. 17 SPD scenario (assuming your calculations that these are equivalent is correct), and just the recovery AP and HP tradeoff.

On hard mode (ignoring LW for now), GC would give you 25% base HP (-25% from hard, -50% from GC). To re-coup the HP effects, you would need to triple your base vitality through constitution boosts. From our lovely discussion on constitution and vitality (assuming you have 7 CON given 5 SPD), you would need approximately 10 more points into constitution to get back at your starting HP. Throw in the 2 attribute points you can trade in for not taking GC, this is almost equal in attribute points, HP, and recovery AP. The difference (and overpoweredness, arguably) lies in max AP, which you have in the GC + constitution build but not in the flat 17 SPD build. This is also discounting, again, other benefits of speed (movement, starting AP) and additive effects, such as picture of health, lone wolf, etc.

Another point is that HP isn't even all necessary if you shield, position, and CC appropriately. Not sure what I'm trying to conclude here, but just throwing out a bunch of data.
To restore lost Vitality under GC (versus 5 Con without GC, Hard difficulty, 415 Vitality at level 20) you can either:
1. Get about 9 more Constitution (less than you describe, 440 Vitality)
2. Get Man-at-Arms 2, grab Picture of Health, get 6 more Con (446 Vitality)
3. Get Man-at-Arms 3, grab Picture of Health, get 5 more Con (453 Vitality)
4. Get Man-at-Arms 4, grab Picture of Health, get 4 more Con (450 Vitality)
5. Get Man-at-Arms 5, grab Picture of Health, get 3 more Con, can also grab Weather the Storm if you want (439 Vitality)

Cost in Talent Points according to Moloch:
1. 4.5 (9 attribute)
2. 4.3 (6 attribute, 3 ability, 1 talent)
3. 4.1 (5 attribute, 6 ability, 1 talent)
4. 4.0 (4 attribute, 10 ability, 1 talent)
5. 4.0 (3 attribute, 15 ability, 1 talent)

Now versus 7 Con without GC, Hard difficulty, 572 Vitality at level 20:
1. Get about 10 more Constitution (587 Vitality)
2. Get Man-at-Arms 2, grab Picture of Health, get 7 more Con (615 Vitality)
3. Get Man-at-Arms 3, grab Picture of Health, get 5 more Con (570 Vitality, close enough)
4. Get Man-at-Arms 4, grab Picture of Health, get 4 more Con (573 Vitality)
5. Get Man-at-Arms 5, grab Picture of Health, get 3 more Con, can also grab Weather the Storm if you want (567 Vitality, close enough)

Cost in Talent Points according to Moloch:
1. 5.0 (10 attribute)
2. 4.8 (7 attribute, 3 ability, 1 talent)
3. 4.1 (5 attribute, 6 ability, 1 talent)
4. 4.0 (4 attribute, 10 ability, 1 talent)
5. 4.0 (3 attribute, 15 ability, 1 talent)

In other words: GC for everybody = Picture of Health for everybody. And probably Weather the Storm for everybody too.
Posted By: Fleve Re: I refuse to coop with people who use LW/GC - 07/08/14 03:29 AM
GC is absurdly overpowered, even on hard difficulty. I started off with one character on GC, Jahan. On the first map things could get pretty rough for him if I didn't pay attention to line of sight, control, and sometimes he died because of dumb luck. I can easily see how this would be annoying in a multiplayer game.

But after a while, everything starts to work together and GC becomes ever more obviously powerful, mainly because you slowly fix the health weakness. GC gives you more action points, meaning you get to use more of your abilities/spells which in turn results in more control overall so the enemy often doesn't even get to attack. When I noticed that, I also picked GC for my Scarlett geo/pyro. Then a bit later I also went with GC for my ranger. Once you have some points to toy around with and can spec into man-at-arms/picture of health, there is really no reason not to take GC. My only character that didn't have GC had, in the end, roughly 20 speed instead, my 'tank', simply because I thought it was silly to pick GC for a tank. In hindsight, it would've been perfectly fine giving the tank GC as well, just not as early as my casters.

Also, 20 action points per turn isn't the max. The bar will just fill up with more points to the right. I ended up with 24-26 points max and per turn on Scarlett/Jahan and my ranger, whereas Madora was stuck at around 16 max, 14 per turn or something like that. With haste, my ranger sometimes had 30 action points in a turn, which was absurd (especially coupled with 5 sneak and guerilla).

Perhaps it isn't even GC that's overpowered, but the GC/picture of health combo. It fits perfectly with GC as you'll already quite early want to spec into constitution, because of your low health as well as to increase your max action points. The amount of points in speed needed to get a decent number of action points without GC just feels off.

Edit: And yeah, in the end all my characters had 5 man-at-arms, picture of health, weather the storm, and three of them had glass cannon. It felt game-breaking to be honest.
LOL. OP is this tx3000 dude again. Don't feed the troll folks.
So far in this thread, he is not trolling. If you want to be prejudiced against someone privately, you are free to do so; that is the point of the Ignore function. If you're going to make it public by posting, take the time to assess the current situation.
Originally Posted by tx3000
Originally Posted by NeutroniumDragon
How is someone "joining with a glass cannon/lone wolf build"? They don't get to bring characters from elsewhere into your save.

Sorry...

I should have clarified that whether I join them or they join me, I only play from the character creation screen.

So I ask people right out what they're going to pick so we can make builds to support each other.

So... Tell them you strongly prefer that they play without Glass Cannon/Lone Wolf, or else don't play with them? Just communicate better. And if you're are already communicating this, then isn't this topic is redundant?

Now if they lie and do it anyways, they're not worth playing with anyway. It's not like they're forcing you to play with them. Play with them, or don't play with them. Your choice.
Posted By: Mirza Re: I refuse to coop with people who use LW/GC - 07/08/14 05:39 AM
Strangely, this is the first time I agree with tx3000. I don't necessarily refuse to co-op with someone using the build, but it would be boring after a while. He is right about the importance of losing battles, too.
Originally Posted by Mangoose
So... Tell them you strongly prefer that they play without Glass Cannon/Lone Wolf, or else don't play with them? Just communicate better. And if you're are already communicating this, then isn't this topic is redundant?

Now if they lie and do it anyways, they're not worth playing with anyway. It's not like they're forcing you to play with them. Play with them, or don't play with them. Your choice.

If I very clearly stated that I want someone that is actually going to play and not some mindless player that doesn't actually play, then telling someone not to use something to adjust to my preference isn't them playing the game, it's me telling them what to do which totally contradicts what I just said.

I already said if they use it I just don't play with them.

So I'm not really sure what the point to whatever it is you're post is all about.
I don't I have the nerd comprehension levels, some of the same people who say this makes it too easy, are those who are telling everyone to get secret books at lvl 2 an 1/2 or that save is worthless, push stats to the limit, and work around on the really tough combats with "dumbed down" tactics.

Playing with a RL friend, I had gotten LW and GC, he disagreed but we did a battle. Without buying new stuff, working the char to max that build... We reloaded because the build was a little too good, we didn't even really discuss it, just both saw it was way OP and would probably dumb down the game. At that point the game was so good and fun for us, we didn't want to taint it. That spoke volumes to me.

Im still playing my first go through and I cannot imagine thinking this game was difficult enough to warrant min/max or purposefully playing 'cheat' builds.

For me and my buddy, the game was easier in Co-Op, not harder, so I gotta agree with the OP on this topic. If someone started justifying it instead of re-rolling, I would find a new co-op partner for sure.
I refuse to dumb down myself down to increase the game difficulty. The only way to go is up! Working to make myself as OP as possible smile

Like considering any fight lasting longer than 2 turns as a failure, failing to kill anyboss in one turn a failure, losing more than 20% of hp in any battle at any point a failure, having a non-maxed out item at any slot a failure, wearing fugly equipments (read robes and full plate armors) a failure etc...
Originally Posted by tx3000
If I very clearly stated that I want someone that is actually going to play and not some mindless player that doesn't actually play, then telling someone not to use something to adjust to my preference isn't them playing the game, it's me telling them what to do which totally contradicts what I just said.

Uh, no, it's called communication and compromise. You're not telling, you're asking and asserting. Do you ever leave the house?

Quote
I already said if they use it I just don't play with them.

So... you waste your own time rolling characters and then quitting, instead of communicating beforehand and not only saving the trouble, but possibly convincing your partner to play the way you like if it's not that big of a deal to him.
Posted By: rk47 Re: I refuse to coop with people who use LW/GC - 07/08/14 07:36 AM
Shut up. I play to have fun. Not to win, Mangoose.
And everyone must play like me or suffer the KONSEKWENCES!
Posted By: Raze Re: I refuse to coop with people who use LW/GC - 07/08/14 07:58 AM

About the posts I just deleted: Please do not register a new account just to attack someone, or I will delete it. That is cowardly, and proves you are inarticulate enough that you can not criticize someone legitimately using your real account. If it wasn't an existing forum member, your obvious personal conflict isn't wanted here.
Originally Posted by haxingW
I refuse to dumb down myself down to increase the game difficulty. The only way to go is up! Working to make myself as OP as possible smile

Like considering any fight lasting longer than 2 turns as a failure, failing to kill anyboss in one turn a failure, losing more than 20% of hp in any battle at any point a failure, having a non-maxed out item at any slot a failure, wearing fugly equipments (read robes and full plate armors) a failure etc...

This is fucking hilarious though, RK. Not in a bad way. Like, this is a great idea. And I bet it's something you do, isn't it, RK? wink
If, theoretically, there was a mod that made it so that taking Glass Cannon reduced your base Recovery AP prior to the GC buff being applied, how much of a reduction would be necessary for it to be balanced?

Like if the reduction were 3.5, then with 5 speed + GC would equal (3.5 base + 5 speed - 3.5 GC penalty)*2=10, while without GC and 5 speed it would be 8.5, with the difference increasing by 1 with each point in Speed. At 10 speed it would be 20 vs 13.5 for example.

Or would it be more balanced if GC were to multiply AP recovery by a smaller amount, like 1.5x instead of 2x?
Posted By: iru Re: I refuse to coop with people who use LW/GC - 07/08/14 09:25 AM
Originally Posted by Rhidian
If, theoretically, there was a mod that made it so that taking Glass Cannon reduced your base Recovery AP prior to the GC buff being applied, how much of a reduction would be necessary for it to be balanced?

Like if the reduction were 3.5, then with 5 speed + GC would equal (3.5 base + 5 speed - 3.5 GC penalty)*2=10, while without GC and 5 speed it would be 8.5, with the difference increasing by 1 with each point in Speed. At 10 speed it would be 20 vs 13.5 for example.

Or would it be more balanced if GC were to multiply AP recovery by a smaller amount, like 1.5x instead of 2x?


I think another interesting interesting way to nerf GC would be to add more disadvantages to it. Maybe a reduction of some sort to BB/WP, resistance, armor, greater reduction of vitality or a combination thereof. Make the glass cannon health reduction harder to counter that is. That doesn't solve the problem of high AP + high initiative + Control spells stopping any foe from acting at all though.

Maybe just add a flat -2 or -3 speed modifier to force the player to invest more in speed and thus have less points to add to constitution.
Posted By: rk47 Re: I refuse to coop with people who use LW/GC - 07/08/14 09:39 AM
Originally Posted by Mangoose
Originally Posted by haxingW
I refuse to dumb down myself down to increase the game difficulty. The only way to go is up! Working to make myself as OP as possible smile

Like considering any fight lasting longer than 2 turns as a failure, failing to kill anyboss in one turn a failure, losing more than 20% of hp in any battle at any point a failure, having a non-maxed out item at any slot a failure, wearing fugly equipments (read robes and full plate armors) a failure etc...

This is fucking hilarious though, RK. Not in a bad way. Like, this is a great idea. And I bet it's something you do, isn't it, RK? wink


Actually there's a JRPG that rewards quick combat resolution.
And discourage players from taking it slow.
It's a risk vs return kind of thing.
Larian may want to delve a bit deeper into that meta.
So as to clarify to those who think playing badly is fine, it is part of the game and explain (VERY POLITELY BECAUSE PEOPLE GET OFFENDED EASILY LMAO) that 'hey you kinda suck at this game, here's less EXP for resolving this combat in 20 turns and 3 retreats.'
Originally Posted by Rhidian
If, theoretically, there was a mod that made it so that taking Glass Cannon reduced your base Recovery AP prior to the GC buff being applied, how much of a reduction would be necessary for it to be balanced?

Like if the reduction were 3.5, then with 5 speed + GC would equal (3.5 base + 5 speed - 3.5 GC penalty)*2=10, while without GC and 5 speed it would be 8.5, with the difference increasing by 1 with each point in Speed. At 10 speed it would be 20 vs 13.5 for example.

Or would it be more balanced if GC were to multiply AP recovery by a smaller amount, like 1.5x instead of 2x?
All you'd be doing there is turning GC into a math problem. If (condition) then GC else not GC. Not interesting.

The only way I could possibly imagine the Glass Cannon benefit being both balanced and interesting/fun is if it was directly tied to the Lone Wolf drawback. I mean straight-up; no Vitality adjustment, no extra Talent points, just the loss of a party member and the doubling of one party member's AP. This would require the current Glass Cannon drawback and the current Loan Wolf benefit to either find new homes or cease to exist.
That's a problematic mechanic for this type of game, rk47, because giving a bad player less xp means that they are basically just screwed. Enemies don't respawn in DOS and being underleveled can be hugely debilitating.

Batman Arkham City actually did something that worked well, in this regard. The more skillfully you fought, the more xp you would get. If you never broke your combo, never got hit, and used a wide variety of moves, you would get more xp.

But unlike DOS, leveling up in Batman didn't necessarily make the game easier. Enemies would scale to your level, so leveling up means you fight tougher enemies, many of which have built in counters to your easy techniques. However it also means you can unlock new abilities.

I feel that is the correct way to do things. When the player does a good job, reward them. Don't reward them by making the game easier, reward them by making it more interesting. New options, new enemy types, more varied gameplay. If they are struggling, then slow down how quickly you introduce new mechanics. Clearly they haven't gotten the hang of what they're currently dealing with.
Posted By: rk47 Re: I refuse to coop with people who use LW/GC - 07/08/14 10:03 AM
The best way to learn things when stuff don't work is to take a break, go seek another opinion, discuss things online on how best to approach the situation. Maybe be a little more open minded instead of blaming the unfair game balance or jumping to conclusions. The game is hard to understand at first, but D:OS opens up so easily once you figure things out.

I'm a psycho in real life and I've met several people who blamed their situations on other external factors except for themselves. Don't have a job? It's not because they declined the job offers, it's because the job sucks. Not enough money? Not because they spent a lot, it's because price of things are increasing. It's all relative. I really blame bad upbringing for this sort of attitude.

On a more serious note. There's the easy difficulty button to add more EXP.
But I really love it if designers would reward good players more.

Posted By: Fleve Re: I refuse to coop with people who use LW/GC - 07/08/14 11:57 AM
For multiplayer, if I would want to go glass cannon, I'd probably avoid it at level 5, save up a few points so I can get picture of health first, then go glass cannon. That way you'd avoid most of the potentially annoying dying when you take glass cannon instantly and end up with less than 100 hp for a while.

But without taking glass cannon/picture of health/weather the storm (for the sake of challenging yourself I guess?), what else are you supposed to put your talents in anyway? It's not just that the particular glass cannon combo is overpowered, it's that most of the other talents are barely useful enough to consider for a caster. The attribute/ability ones are worse than the Moloch-trades. An aerothurge has a bunch of nice options, but most of the other caster-talents aren't so much upgrades as side-grades and perhaps fun for roleplaying. I used my casters for all the miscellaneous stuff - pet pal, crafting, leadership.

Meanwhile, my melee and ranger had a wealth of fun and strong talents to choose from. Man-at-arms talents in particular are plain awesome, but the options for a bow or melee ranger are also quite good.
I could see a lot of blind co-op'ing players want to take Lone Wolf, since it reduces party maintenance by quite a bit and being strangers it's going to take enough time and date planning to finish the game no matter what choices you make. I would think over time the GC option will fade some as you'll be playing with people with a couple play throughs completed and are looking for more of a challenge.

The good news is you'll now this right up-front at char creation, not many hours in.
Originally Posted by Mangoose
Uh, no, it's called communication and compromise. You're not telling, you're asking and asserting. Do you ever leave the house?

Um no, it's not compromise in this case, it's called getting your way by saying I won't play if you are using (Insert whatever) sounds like a 4 year old throwing a tantrum. If someone says they're going to use Glass Cannon and I say I prefer them not to and then they don't, then they aren't using what THEY want to use, they're using what I told them to use.

When it comes to this game, I strongly take a stand against builds being made based off what another player suggests. Builds are supposed to be a personal aspect. If a player says hey I have 2 things (A and B) what should they choose, I simply say the pros and cons of each and then tell them to pick whatever one they want that fits their character better.

Originally Posted by Mangoose
So... you waste your own time rolling characters and then quitting, instead of communicating beforehand and not only saving the trouble, but possibly convincing your partner to play the way you like if it's not that big of a deal to him.

That doesn't make any sense, why would I roll my character FIRST? Not sure how you missed the part where I stated how one of the first things I ask is what they plan on doing.
High initiative is what makes GC so powerful.

In the battles I've fight with 2 LW/non-GC characters, when one character gets CC'd (especially at the beginning of a fight), I start to get a little nervous. When the second character gets CC'd, chances are a reload is imminent. So the solution for GC or LW/GC is to increase the probability of that happening.

So, (putting the lore of LW and GC aside for a moment) make GC ignore/not benefit from the +5 initiative from Leadership. This should put a GC character behind a lot of enemy creatures in the turn order, and would increase the impact of the vitality drawback. Combined with LW, this would increase the chance that 1 or more PCs are CC'd, thus increasing the chances of the entire party being CC'd, which usually ends badly.

Hell, why not just remove +5 Initiative from Leadership altogether? I bet that would increase difficulty all around.
I doubt anything can cc you ay 8-9 bodybuilding and willpower
Originally Posted by ScrotieMcB
Originally Posted by eskuche
Oops, you are right. I recant! I guess this means if you're using haste with GC you should have CON = 3 + SPD or something like that.
At least Speed +2. With GC, I normally pump Con until Con=Speed+4, then pump speed until Speed=Con-2, then pump Con again.

But we digress. The thread's original topic is, essentially, complaining about partying with people who use Lone Wolf and/or Glass Cannon. In my opinion, Lone Wolf isn't overpowered at all, but Glass Cannon definitely is, and I could definitely see how co-op with someone using GC, when you don't, could make you very aware of that imbalance, as they get these really long turns doing everything under the sun, while your non-overpowered character feels meek in comparison. Not to mention the whole "same partner every time" feeling.

So yeah, Glass Cannon needs to be beaten with a nerf bat. Obviously. Hopefully that would improve build diversity to the metagame and fix OP's problem.


I enjoy playing LW/GC (I don't play multiplayer btw)--if it was nerfed, yes, it would force me to just play with 4 characters instead, otherwise it'd really only be useful as an artificial difficulty increase (and less fun). But that's not really a solution.

The LW/GC combo is essentially sacrificing 2 extra party members for 2 more powerful characters. Your LW/GC characters have to carry the load of 4 characters--plus, 1) each of your LW/GC characters have around a third less HP (and GC also halves +hp bonuses from gear/etc., not just base HP), 2) you don't get the versatility of 4 characters inside and outside combat which obviously disadvantages you in a myriad of ways, 3) it limits your playstyle (for better or worse depending on your goals), and 4) debuffs/CC's are lethal, not just an annoyance, to your party. Keep in mind also that 4 character parties have more AP, more HP, more abilities, more skills, more talents, etc. total than 2 LW/GC characters.

Essentially, without GC, LW is broken unless you just want a tank and don't mind slashing your offense by 1/4 through the loss of a character, not to mention the loss of versatility. Without LW, GC is still really good, but from experience, the 50% debuff to HP pretty much means you have to keep them far away from any of the action. For instance, Braccus Rex's initial meteor storm = 1 shot kill for GC users without LW. Which means if you followed the 1 LW tank and 2 GC characters, your LW tank will have to wait until their second turn to have enough AP to res one of them, then hope he's not CC'd or dead before he can get enough AP to res the other--meanwhile you're 4 turns in and you've done 0 damage. Keep in mind that not all players, including myself, metagame to be able to avoid these types of situations, like meticulously stacking resists so that fire/other element heals you by level 8-9.

Long story short, I don't think it's overpowered. I prefer to play with 2 stronger characters than 4 standard characters. Plenty of people prefer 4 characters over just 2, and both 2 and 4 character parties can be overpowered.
Originally Posted by freerealestate
[quote=ScrotieMcB][quote=eskuche]
The LW/GC combo is essentially sacrificing 2 extra party members for 2 more powerful characters. Your LW/GC characters have to carry the load of 4 characters--plus, 1) each of your LW/GC characters have around a third less HP (and GC also halves +hp bonuses from gear/etc., not just base HP), 2) you don't get the versatility of 4 characters inside and outside combat which obviously disadvantages you in a myriad of ways, 3) it limits your playstyle (for better or worse depending on your goals), and 4) debuffs/CC's are lethal, not just an annoyance, to your party. Keep in mind also that 4 character parties have more AP, more HP, more abilities, more skills, more talents, etc. total than 2 LW/GC characters.


Doesn't matter. 2 LW/GC 2 handers. Step 1: Ram. Step 2: Nullify. Step three: whirlwind. Step 4: idk, collecting loots?
Can you provide a more effective tactic? Protip: you can't.

Edit: and at 8-9 willpower and bodybuilding CC is a joke. I can't even cc my own toons. A.I CCs are even more useless. I watch 5 archers use 3 special arrows on one of my 2 handers, and wonder why the heck such useless class even exist. No cc, no damage, no mobility no defense no nothing.
Originally Posted by haxingW
I doubt anything can cc you ay 8-9 bodybuilding and willpower

True.

So let me put it another way, and elaborate.

Right now, every single person complaining about LW/GC and/or the difficulty of the game has multiple characters in their party with at least Leadership 1 (I think making such a claim is pretty damn safe). As well, most probably have at least Leadership 4 on one character.

Leadership 1--in terms of Initiative--is the equivalent of 5 Intiative-granting, non-slot filling magical items. Viewed alternatively, Leaderhip 1 effectively grants ~10 free Attribute points (speed/perception) for the purposes of determining initiative. These attritube points can, likewise, be translated into 10 attribute-granting, non-slot filling magical items, or even 20 level advancements, if you'd prefer that.

What grants this awesome boost? Saying "No" to a fish thief at level 2! (And this is not an optional trait conversation)

Scenario 1:
So now we take those 10 free attribute points/20 level advancements/5 non-slot filling magical items into combat with two LW/GC characters, where this boost to initiative allows the two PCs to act first. These two characters are facing 6 AI units.

After 1.5 turns (Player, AI, Player), the player has fought with 7-9 "characters" and the AI has fought with 6. After 2 full turns (Player, AI, Player, AI), the player has fought with 7-9 "characters" and the AI has fought with 12 units. Sounds good, even challenging... but it's not.

Either from damage or CC, the player has reduced the enemy AI to (let's say) 3 creatures on his first turn. That means, after 1 full turn (Player, AI), the player has fought with 3-5 "characters" and the AI has fought with 3. After 1.5 turns, the player has presumably killed/CC'd the next three AI units. That means that after 2 full turns, the player fought with 7-9 "characters" and the AI fought with 3. The AI, NO MATTER HOW WELL PROGRAMMED, never had a chance.

Scenario 2:
No Initiative bonus from Leadership! If this does not straight away give the AI the Initiative with most of its units, then it would at least puts pressure on the player in terms of equipping Initiative gear (which comes with its own opportunity costs), and speed and perception investment (which also has opportunity costs). But let's assume the AI does have the initiative.

After 1.5 turns, the AI has fought with 9 units (if we assume the player killed/CC'd the same number of AI units from Scenario 1) and the player has fought with 4-5. After 2 full turns, the AI has fought with 9 characters and the player has fought with 7-9. After 3 full turns, the AI has fought with 9 characters (assuming the player finishes off the last 3 AI units) and the player has fought with 11-14.

Now, these aren't amazing numbers... but they do show that Initiative matters! (Which should be obvious since combat is turn based)

The second scenario also assumes that the PCs are not CC'd because they have godly Bodybuilding and Willpower. However, what Scenario 2 does not take into account is the damage the player receives and the effect that lost HP has on the player's AP. In Scenario 2, instead of the player spending all of his turn 1 AP on DD/CC, he's now spending a portion on healing or helping his comrade. Which means he is, in a way, fighting with fewer "characters" and the AI is fighting with more (since they're not being DD'd or CC'd).

Addition: To those who will respond that resists can very easily become OP, I have two things to say. First, crafting resists to the point of becoming near-invulnerable requires some player effort, whereas the Initiative benefits of Leadership requires player effort TO AVOID. Second: my god, do you not even have the slightest bit of self discipline to limit your power in this game (by just a little bit) to make it more fun and challenging?


And what creates the difference between Scenario 1 and 2? Picking "bad fish thief, bad".

So this is my challenge: pick whatever class/talents/etc that you want, but Leadership can never get above 0 on any character in the group. Does the game seem different?
I don't disagree. That's why I suggest a hardmode where you have -5 on both bodybuilding and willpower and -75% resist. And impossible mode with Ai having +50 ini and +5 movement. Sure it's a cheap way to fix it and it will require the most OP builds imaginable to beat, and most people will whine. But that is how I played the game before lvl 7, it was challenging because the CC sticked and some enemies had a chance to react. Of coz, I had ways to cheese the fights...

Scenerio 2: it really doesn't matter. I have 115% tenebrium resistance now nvm the rest. And you know about how cc works on my toons...

Edit: I do restrain myself. Like I use the pretty mail armors on both instead of the fugly plate which has more armor and way more resist.

Also, tempting to use spears instead of scythe but my god who is the idiots that give spear +3dex bonus? I refuse to cope with stupid design.
Originally Posted by haxingW
I don't disagree. That's why I suggest a hardmode where you have -5 on both bodybuilding and willpower and -75% resist. And impossible mode with Ai having +50 ini and +5 movement. Sure it's a cheap way to fix it and it will require the most OP builds imaginable to beat, and most people will whine. But that is how I played the game before lvl 7, it was challenging because the CC sticked and some enemies had a chance to react. Of coz, I had ways to cheese the fights...

Scenerio 2: it really doesn't matter. I have 115% tenebrium resistance now nvm the rest. And you know about how cc works on my toons...

The goal of my post (and, hopefully, any suggestive post on the developer's forums) is to suggest the least time consuming and widest ranging adjustment. I don't think hardcore or impossible settings accomplish that (ie they might not be time consuming, but they aren't going to effect the most possible players). Removing Initiative from Leadership fits the criteria.

And, honestly, if players can't discipline themselves even a little bit, then Larian shouldn't be worrying about their complaints anyway.
Originally Posted by haxingW
I don't disagree. That's why I suggest a hardmode where you have -5 on both bodybuilding and willpower and -75% resist. And impossible mode with Ai having +50 ini and +5 movement. Sure it's a cheap way to fix it and it will require the most OP builds imaginable to beat, and most people will whine. But that is how I played the game before lvl 7, it was challenging because the CC sticked and some enemies had a chance to react. Of coz, I had ways to cheese the fights...

Scenerio 2: it really doesn't matter. I have 115% tenebrium resistance now nvm the rest. And you know about how cc works on my toons...

Edit: I do restrain myself. Like I use the pretty mail armors on both instead of the fugly plate which has more armor and way more resist.

Also, tempting to use spears instead of scythe but my god who is the idiots that give spear +3dex bonus? I refuse to cope with stupid design.


I like the WP/BB debuff idea. Another way to do that might be to just not pump so many points into WP and BB.

And I don't understand--I haven't beaten the game (keep restarting)--are you really so powerful by a certain level (excluding endgame) that you're killing 50% or all enemies in any given group in the first turn? What level does this become an issue?
After leaving Cyseal, you will start to snowball hard.

Edit: @Armakoir: those modes are for people that like to exhaust all mechanics to beat the game. For some people, like me, once they can see the most optimal route to beat something, it's very... unsettling to something less effective. It's just how it is. Besides, if the mechanics exist, all is fair. Like it makes no sense to take Morning Person to replace Leech.
Originally Posted by Armakoir
High initiative is what makes GC so powerful.

In the battles I've fight with 2 LW/non-GC characters, when one character gets CC'd (especially at the beginning of a fight), I start to get a little nervous. When the second character gets CC'd, chances are a reload is imminent. So the solution for GC or LW/GC is to increase the probability of that happening.

So, (putting the lore of LW and GC aside for a moment) make GC ignore/not benefit from the +5 initiative from Leadership. This should put a GC character behind a lot of enemy creatures in the turn order, and would increase the impact of the vitality drawback. Combined with LW, this would increase the chance that 1 or more PCs are CC'd, thus increasing the chances of the entire party being CC'd, which usually ends badly.

Hell, why not just remove +5 Initiative from Leadership altogether? I bet that would increase difficulty all around.


There is a lot of truth in that. I modified the game so I have -6 initiative just so I don't always go first. This games "Directors Cut" could be magnificent, since there is a lot of room a game balance tweaking that could be done.
Originally Posted by freerealestate
Essentially, without GC, LW is broken unless you just want a tank and don't mind slashing your offense by 1/4 through the loss of a character, not to mention the loss of versatility.
I agree.
Originally Posted by freerealestate
Without LW, GC is still really good, but from experience, the 50% debuff to HP pretty much means you have to keep them far away from any of the action.
I disagree. Two-handed melee? Doesn't matter, still better with GC. You're going to be acting before the enemies every time anyway.

The way I look at it is that LW+GC is only a "combo" for people who haven't realized you can give everyone Picture of Health (or just a bunch of Constitution, that works too). Once you realize that, LW goes back to being what it was before: an underpowered talent which you should never use. Glass Cannon is the OP part of the combo.
Originally Posted by Armakoir
High initiative is what makes GC so powerful.

In the battles I've fight with 2 LW/non-GC characters, when one character gets CC'd (especially at the beginning of a fight), I start to get a little nervous. When the second character gets CC'd, chances are a reload is imminent. So the solution for GC or LW/GC is to increase the probability of that happening.
As I was just saying, it's not really a LW thing... but yes, high Initiative means that life matters less and damage and/or CC matter more. Damage and/or CC happens to be precisely what GC provides.

However, I don't think there is a good argument that "lowering player Initiative balances GC." Such a change would mean that GC wouldn't be a good choice anymore for front-row characters (such as tanks), but it would still be stupidly overpowered for back-row characters who aren't likely to be early targets, even if the enemies do get some kind of initiative advantage. It wouldn't be a question of "do I want to use GC?" Of course you'd want to use it. You'd just be cynically calculating how many in the front of your formation need to not take GC in order to provide support for those who do.
Originally Posted by haxingW
@Armakoir: those modes are for people that like to exhaust all mechanics to beat the game. For some people, like me, once they can see the most optimal route to beat something, it's very... unsettling to something less effective. It's just how it is. Besides, if the mechanics exist, all is fair. Like it makes no sense to take Morning Person to replace Leech.

And I'm sure modders will be creating some really difficult (more specialized) content/settings. I'd personally like to see some extra areas/content/bosses that are designed to be unbeatable.

I get that "exhaust all mechanices" mentality. It seems well suited to games like Borderlands or Dark Souls where each runthrough gets harder and harder. But D:OS isn't one of those games, and isn't trying to be. And by people coming on here and saying "you guys screwed up, this game is too easy", they're basically demanding standards that Larian isn't trying to meet.

It's kind of like you and some kid are on the basketball court. He's standing near the hoop, so you charge the lane and slam dunk right over the top of him. You land, turn to him and say "damn kid, you suck!" and he says "hey, what game ya' playin'?"

I'm not saying "exhaust all mechanics" players should take a hike, but I am saying they should try to appreciate what D:OS is trying to do (old school CRPG standards), and if they share their opinions about how to improve the game, those opinions should be tempered by an understanding of their own mismatched expectations.
On the playthrough I am doing right now, Lone Wolf is an extremely valuable talent.
1 Rogue (lone wolf), 1 Ranger, Madora
No magic on anybody

Madora 7 Con = 294 hp (with 3/5 Picture of Health)
Ranger 6 Con = 210 hp
Rogue 8 Con = 582 hp (443 hp with 6 Con)

Clearly the Rogue is easily the tankiest character. Madora and the Ranger have both died a lot. It's starting to turn around, now that I have more options, but I have frequently been left with only my Lone Wolf Rogue left alive, deciding whether to flee, resurrect, or reload. Combining Madora and my Ranger into a single, tankier person could well be worthwhile. I can definitely say that my LW Rogue is the immovable rock of my group.

When you give up summons, elemental shields, and reliable healing, the huge HP boost from Lone Wolf is definitely a major boon.
Is the game still playable? Is the game still fun?

These are questions I ask myself whenever things like class/item/skill balance etc. comes up. D:OS is not a competitive vs game so immediately the question of 'fairness' is thrown out the window. What is more important is whether the game is still fun with the variety of options available? In my book, the answer is emphatically: yes!

Some combinations are going to be easier than others, and that just means I've got incentive to try different ones and find the ones that are most fun for me. And what's fun for me might be different from what's fun for someone else.

This game is very freeform in solutions and builds. That naturally gives some very easy ways through things if you want, but you also have the freedom not to. I'd much rather have the option to play how I like, giving me the respect to use my own discipline to avoid making things too easy, than have that freedom taken away.

The OP expressing a personal preference that (s)he won't game with a certain build is fine as long as (s)he is explaining why it's not fun for him/her, not saying it's something inherently broken with the game. I saw another thread from the same person saying something about archers, which I didn't understand because I'm have a great deal of fun playing with an archer, but we're allowed to have our preferences as long as we respect the choices of others too.

But back on topic. Should LW/GC be changed? Depends on why you want to change it. Would any suggested changes make LW/GC more fun to play? Remember, this isn't competitive, so saying it's more powerful per se isn't an answer in itself, only if they become so much less fun to play as a result of being too powerful would it be a concern. Maybe there just needs to be more scope in the difficulty adjustment to enable people who like playing these characters to create their own challenge - D:DC had a great custom campaign mode where you could adjust a lot of things to create your own challenge, maybe something similar for D:OS would go down well.
"I personally think Glass Cannon Sucks, I get the same exact result from Casting haste without the health loss."

Then why not cast haste and be happy with it? Or don't play with people you don't like (just play with friends for example). Or play singelplayer.



This is not a competitive multiplayer game. If they nerf GC and LW I will be very sad, because I prefeer to play the game that way, with only two characters. I don't want to be forced to have a part of four.

Play the game the way you want and let the rest play the game the way the want.
Originally Posted by kalniel
Is the game still playable? Is the game still fun?

These are questions I ask myself whenever things like class/item/skill balance etc. comes up. D:OS is not a competitive vs game so immediately the question of 'fairness' is thrown out the window. What is more important is whether the game is still fun with the variety of options available? In my book, the answer is emphatically: yes!

Some combinations are going to be easier than others, and that just means I've got incentive to try different ones and find the ones that are most fun for me. And what's fun for me might be different from what's fun for someone else.

This game is very freeform in solutions and builds. That naturally gives some very easy ways through things if you want, but you also have the freedom not to. I'd much rather have the option to play how I like, giving me the respect to use my own discipline to avoid making things too easy, than have that freedom taken away.

The OP expressing a personal preference that (s)he won't game with a certain build is fine as long as (s)he is explaining why it's not fun for him/her, not saying it's something inherently broken with the game. I saw another thread from the same person saying something about archers, which I didn't understand because I'm have a great deal of fun playing with an archer, but we're allowed to have our preferences as long as we respect the choices of others too.

But back on topic. Should LW/GC be changed? Depends on why you want to change it. Would any suggested changes make LW/GC more fun to play? Remember, this isn't competitive, so saying it's more powerful per se isn't an answer in itself, only if they become so much less fun to play as a result of being too powerful would it be a concern. Maybe there just needs to be more scope in the difficulty adjustment to enable people who like playing these characters to create their own challenge - D:DC had a great custom campaign mode where you could adjust a lot of things to create your own challenge, maybe something similar for D:OS would go down well.


I really want to sign this. There is no reason to overdo the balance in a PvE only game. Your PC are demi-gods ffs so you want to feel like that at some point in the game. If not- just stop min/maxing.
Originally Posted by Escadin
I really want to sign this. There is no reason to overdo the balance in a PvE only game. Your PC are demi-gods ffs so you want to feel like that at some point in the game. If not- just stop min/maxing.


Well... except you're FALLEN demigods. Everyone who recognizes you says some version of "wow you look weak as hell".

Until the end of the game, at which point you're actually fighting against people on your level.
Originally Posted by tx3000
I'm so sick and tired of joining people or having people join me....where no one can think for themselves...What a bunch of childish douche bags.
Wow, I didn't realise Larian had implemented player personality matching on their multiplayer service.

Nice one guys - now you can go and put OKCupid and Match.com out of business. smile
Posted By: RtM Re: I refuse to coop with people who use LW/GC - 09/08/14 07:55 AM
Originally Posted by Stargazer
Originally Posted by tx3000
I'm so sick and tired of joining people or having people join me....where no one can think for themselves...What a bunch of childish douche bags.
Wow, I didn't realise Larian had implemented player personality matching on their multiplayer service.

Nice one guys - now you can go and put OKCupid and Match.com out of business. smile


lolz
Originally Posted by haxingW
Doesn't matter. 2 LW/GC 2 handers. Step 1: Ram. Step 2: Nullify. Step three: whirlwind. Step 4: idk, collecting loots?Can you provide a more effective tactic? Protip: you can't.
Step 1: Rage. Step 2: Invisibility. Step 3: Stealth when standing next to enemies (Automatically succeeds when invisible). Step 4: Whirlwind (with Guerrilla talent).

Boom. More effective tactic. laugh
I'm pretty sure you cannot stealth if there's an enemy facing you, no matter what.
Posted By: OJ191 Re: I refuse to coop with people who use LW/GC - 10/08/14 08:53 AM
Originally Posted by ScrotieMcB
Originally Posted by NeutroniumDragon
The huge hit to Vitality is a major downside to Glass Cannon that I feel does compensate for the AP boost it gives.
Not even close. A character with 5 Speed and Glass Cannon has as much recovery AP as a character with 17 Speed. 7 Speed + GC is roughly equivalent to 21 Speed. Those are stupidly high numbers, and all GC asks in return is that you throw some points in Constitution instead. Considering the massive savings in Speed, that's no problem. If you take your previous Speed investment, toss it in Constitution instead, and take GC, you will have a stronger character every single time.

Also, Leadership provides crazy bonuses to Initiative, which greatly offsets any need to pump it further with stats. This is actually something which should be looked into, because Leadership makes other Initiative boosts mostly meaningless.

GC is overpowered. And not a little, it's more powerful than any other talent by a country mile. It is game-warping.

When it comes to Lone Wolf, I feel your appraisal is fairly accurate.


WTF? How on earth are you getting those values for speed vs glass cannon. All glass cannon does is reduce HP an double recovery AP. So having 5 speed is equivalent to having 10 speed, and so on. You don't magically get 17 speed of recovery AP from having 5 AP+ glass cannon.
Originally Posted by dirigible
I'm pretty sure you cannot stealth if there's an enemy facing you, no matter what.


Invisibility makes the opposition not able to see you, if they can't see you they can't detect you.
He sneaks only to get extra damage from Guerrilla.

That's why you can ignore even Braccus Rex scripted speech if you go to him while being invisible.

Originally Posted by OJ191
WTF? How on earth are you getting those values for speed vs glass cannon. All glass cannon does is reduce HP an double recovery AP. So having 5 speed is equivalent to having 10 speed, and so on. You don't magically get 17 speed of recovery AP from having 5 AP+ glass cannon.


He is right.
Get Speed 17, check your AP recovery.
Now get Glass Cannon on a character with 5 speed, check the AP recovery.
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