Just an idea, - suggestion for devs to maybe consider.



I think it might be worth it to look into what can be done to diversify the penalties in the game since they constrict the gameplay a bit too much, for the game as OS is.
(especially after longer or repeated playthroughs)

There are two kinds of penalties in the game, those that influence the skills and those against enemies with higher levels.

It seems to me both run too high and that they could be lowered a little bit to provide more width in gameplay.

Those which govern skills and spells with some minimal differences between levels and points spent on a skill or not creates 40% strong penalties, or higher. I think that needlessly skews the game more towards importance of pure class builds. Which is how it turned out in the end, after several changes in the last days of beta. Doesnt mean it cant be improved or adjusted.

Similar goes for enemies which in current system mostly become too strong, too different in a very drastic way - based on differences in levels.
A few levels above is still doable for some players but i dont think it would actually hurt to have that border be less rigid.
The way maps are designed, the story itself, the amounts of enemies there dont really require different sections to be so rigidly inaccessible as they are now - just based on levels.
Better to have it inaccessible because the enemies are more dangerous, numerous and more capable.


I think it would work great both for Cysael area and Luculla forest first stages.


If both of the penalties were to be lowered a bit and diversified so different enemies and places bring different amounts of penalties (which are generally lower but still there) instead of seemingly locked big amounts, the gameplay would only get better.

This would probably be best to do for the new official Hard mode since new difficulties would probably balance with this bigger width in gameplay very nicely.

Soo..you want to skip content and lose the consequences of it. What about those who do all the content and end up getting the levels? They get penalized with boredom for playing thoroughly?

This is not a skill based game. Tactics are not twitch based or requiring advanced formulas that only a mathematician can solve, I see no incentive in being able to wander the country side at half the level because..reasons. If you don't like the abstract concepts of level, experience and skill mastery then play an action adventure game.

It's not Dark Souls and isn't set up to have speed runs or 0 level runs played, its an abstract concept of time and progression. Thus RPG.

:lol:

say wut?





:lol:

I think things should be changed so people need a permit for the internet. A sort of drivers license for teh internet, with tests to pass and everything. Maybe even a few hours doing test drives online with an instructor. Medical checkup and basic psychiatric tests are of course a part of the procedure already. Luckily.

We would just need to make it mandatory for the internet too.

The very first thing you would get rid of with this would be all these teenagers and kids. Then the old people would fall off since well, it isnt safe to go online at that age anymore.

Then about 80% of forum posts would disappear. like that one above. Or they would never get created.

Then about so much of web sites would also go away. Who needs them anyway? Instead of 150 sites for every single thing we would have 5.

Christian Science Monitor, Cinema sins, weather report, someones left over playlist with almost all Led Zeppelin songs and Conan. (+ a global chat haha)

I mean, just good things can come out of it.
Imagine how quiet and nice it would be on the internet then...

Somebody should really do it.

I'm glad you think so much of your opinion. Its a pity that no one else does, judging from the lack of replies to most of your posts. But you have fun with that omniscience.

I have biggest issue with Str/Dex/Int requirements for the equipment.

These should not be "hard" requirements, but give penalties if character has non-optional Str/Dex/Int, just like skills.

Currently, as it is, they promote single class specialization, where warriors will get Str, rogues/rangers Dex and mages Int.

For example, in order to use best crafter melee weapons your character must have really good Str.

I dont know, im ok with how that mechanic works.

Im usually playing hybrid characters and i found i can mix and match attributes in good enough ways for it. With the system working as it is i cannot make a hybrid that is too strong in one main attribute. I have to split them up and thats appropriate for such a build.

Although the equipment itself not being hard locked but giving penalties, well... i guess it could work too?

Luckily the game provides more then enough gear that additionally alters attributes so... its not a problem that is so rigid as penalties i mentioned.

And that bladenite completely and drastically misunderstood.
For some strange reason.


Actually, what i am suggesting would :

1. allow players to explore more of the sections on the map - because they wouldn't be so constrained by the enemies being practically impossible to fight depending just on levels.

2. allow for more effective hybrid builds that would be a bit easier and more diverse to make while the pure classes would not lose anything.


Just as crude example:
Maybe you dont need to have 30% chance to hit an enemy only one or two levels higher. Maybe it could be between 50% and 60%? 70%?

Maybe the chance to fail to use a spell or ability doesnt need to be as high as it is if youre missing one point in a skill? Maybe it could be just 10 - 20%, not 50% or more.



Of course that if you would do too much of this the game would become too easy. Thats precisely why i am suggesting just slight changes to the numbers, not anything drastic.
And being used together with the new upcoming real official Harder difficulty mod for the game.

I am most likely as old or older than you. But your OP does not make any sense at all. On easy you should already be able to successfully fight enemies 3 or 4 levels higher than you, there is no absolutely no good reason to lower the fighting difficulty further, which is already quite low.

I will not comment your post above, suffice it to say that after 20 years of net experience, most of them in political discussion boards, allow me to conclude that idiots come in all age variations.

Regards,
Thorsten

Failure to understand simple sentences is one thing that definitely doesnt surprise me on these boards here. Or generally on the internet.

Im not talking about playing the game on easy or lowering the difficulty. As i explained above.

Speaking of idiotism, choosing to respond to a sarcastic comment with that self defacing attempt speaks enough.

Good to know you dont understand what is discussed, too.

Whatever you say, that is, what you demand. A better chance to kill enemies several levels higher obviously equals = game easier.

Regards,
Thorsten

I really dont care what your failure to understand creates in your head. Save your ridiculous simpleton translations for yourself.

Those who it is addressed to understand it just fine. Thats what matters.

Well, theoretically, I think it is a good point to bring up - more freedom to wander around and to do things in different order is always good. For example, in Cyseal, (as a beginner) you are basically locked to the path "explore the town - tunnel under the graveyard - lighthouse -" and so on (not saying that it is not possible to do things in a different way but it is considerably more difficult). However, practically, I also have the feeling that D:OS might not have enough "map space" to allow for too many different paths without becoming too easy... For example, Cyseal map seems to me to be rather small once you have completely uncovered it.

Having more options in how to handle the area doesnt mean its automatically making the game easy.

Especially if those encounters are revamped and made Harder through other means then just Level difference.

As i said from the start, this change would work best if combined with the upcoming official Harder mode.

If done properly, the difficulty would become based on other things and mechanics, not on level difference. Numbers of enemies, enemy groups composition, general tactics and Ai, more magic spells, elemental arrows, etc, etc.

Plus, of course, the changes themselves should be minimalistic instead of too drastic.
The devs will figure out the exact details if they would want to do something like this.

Try actually thinking outside the box and not running like a dumbass into combat. Use stealth, self-teleports, teleport pyramid, Charisma, etc. to avoid combat and get to non-combat quests. Not to mention using Charm to even the playing field if you do get in combat. DOS is not rigidly inaccessible. In my first run I did things out of order so I could get XP to fight the harder encounters in earlier areas.

I even did it accidentially. So I had to flee sometimes and either come back better prepared or sneak if I desparately wanted to go somewhere I was not supposed to go with the level of my party. No problem at all.

Regards,
Thorsten

Guys... i did all that. well before you ever saw the game. theres an npc in the game called after me, ffs...

Dont be so bleeding stupid.

I wont repeat the same thing over and over just because you dont get it.

I didnt say that the game is inaccessible or rigid, the genious Mongoose did, just above.

I bloody said some penalties are a bit rigid. Which means you two cannot understand simple sentences in english.

Feel free to stop repeating the same thing over and over. (and posting here too, yes)

ROFL. Good boy. Thanks for the encouragement.

Regards,
Thorsten

They don't want hybrids to be as effective at singular abilities as Pure class builds. That's not a flaw, its by design. They want you to choose what works and stick with it, have multiple characters carry the load, not one character who is a Master of everything.

My opinion is they should split it even further, have two of the magic skills run off another stat like Willpower or something.

Despite the cantankerous, condescending, "get off my lawn" attitude, I agree with Hiver more or less. Arbitrary limitations on player choices are annoying. Sure, RPGs by nature have many arbitrary things, and there should be SOME penalty to fighting high level opponents, but it is a little harsh. If the game becomes much harder with the hardcore difficulty, then making it easier to fight higher level enemies shouldn't be much of an issue, because fighting enemies you're own level will be challenging enough.

But frankly, I'd be more interested in addressing the opposite case: fighting enemies too low of level. I remember going to black cove after I had cleared much of the church area, and being two levels or so above everyone there. It was boring because I just demolished everything. It'd be nice if enemies scaled up to your level, if only to some degree. Zombies outside of Cyseal shouldn't be level 20 if you miss a fight, but maybe they could go up to 10. I could definitely see some people not wanting this, so perhaps it could be an option (or part of hardcore mode). If they don't implement this, I might look into adding it myself.

I'm not so sure on reducing the penalty for multiclassing. It's already pretty easy to multiclass. But skill penalties for lacking stats could probably be reduced a hair. On the other end of the scale, intelligence bonuses on cooldown need to be reduced a lot. I like the idea of gear being wearable by anyone, but suffering strong penalties for low stats, kind of like how using high level weapons requires additional AP costs. Different items could have different penalties. Using strength items with a lack of strength could reduce speed (2 points per lack of strength) and armor, using dexterity items with low dex could reduce hit and dodge chances, using intelligence gear with low int could decrease spell success and increase cooldowns, or something like that. People could then weigh whether the penalties are worth the gear bonuses or not. Probably too hard to balance properly, but could be interesting.

Didn't say that, just said you're bad at the game.


So why are you bad at this game?






Lol go review some more GoT in your one person messageboard.

That is specifically directed at two asswipes who jumped to some stupid conclusion from reading the title, then in lack of anything else to say went for even stupider "oh your bad at the game and want it easy" brain fart.

After i spent most of the beta asking for various encounters to be made more difficult - which then were pushed to the state they are today.

And generally asking for better harder difficulty... which is all in my post history, btw.

But these two are not interested in thinking. They just splurge stupid half insults to make themselves feel better.



The best thing about this is that the difficulty wouldnt depend on difference in levels alone anymore, as it seems now, but on other things.

Just like just changing enemy health and damage isnt really a proper Hard mode, which is one of the reasons Larian will be doing a sort of addon better Hard mode, which is what a game like OS really deserves.



You see, with a proper hardermode - and enemies difficulty not being dependant on level differences - even the lower level encounters would be more difficult.




The game was always and originally meant to be a classfree system.

Now, as i said, during the last few weeks of the beta there had been several bigger changes that tried to adress this specific balance.

And then the last update before release set things as they are. Which is good and playable - i play three or four skills hybrids all the time and mostly find the game on the easy side.

I played with just two SH without op talents on hard too. And im intending to make a mod using that and numerous other adjustments to make the game harder in a different ways.

There isnt a way that i havent played this game in.

But it could be - theoretically - made a bit better.


/

Just because there are tow simpletons spamming their stupidity here - does not mean what they imagine is true. It just means they are stupid.

See folks? This is how an internet moron thinks. When you tell him to stop repeating the same obviously cheap and stupid fallacy, because its cheap and stupid, he then repeats it more because his brain gets that confirmation that his master plan is successful. right? :lol:

I guess this was written by Santa then:





For most of the players - generally speaking, of course.

Because of level penalties various sections are "closed off" to most of the players - in a way that doesnt allow for much freedom in approaches - which is visible from any amount of complaints and posts about it, etc, etc.

Freedom in approaches could be increased. Class system could be made a bit more class free, as it was always meant to be - and the game difficulty could be increased and balanced in other ways.

Reducing loot for example, would be just one of various things you can do.

Fallacy implies it's not true. Not my fault it's true.


Nah, just you.

Though I love Skyrim, I don't want every game I play to have that style. Making enemies level with you makes you feel like your not accomplishing anything. My characters aren't getting stronger... At level 2 my characters went wrong way and ran into the level 6-7 orcs... died... reloaded used tactics and won... IF anything this game needs to remove the bad AI where enemy won't attack if a puddle of goo is between you...

Having higher level of characters to limit where you go is far better than making it fully linear. At least that way if I'm good at playing an RPG I can go places ahead of time...

Player1: I think you want to much of an action RPG than what the game is. Having stats limit what you wear is the basic game play of this type of game... To remove that would ruin gameplay for this style of game...

This type of game might just not be your cup of tea.

You think way too much for your brain capacities. (you love skyrim and youre going to tell me about action games and what is my cup of tea... ffs...)

Reducing the importance of level differences does not mean the gameplay will not be stat based.
Quite the contrary.

The opposite is true. - as i actually wrote.

It would also make the game less linear then it is right now.




- how about you all that cannot understand simple sentences stop posting here?
Nobody really wants to know what random emotional reaction fires off in your barely functioning brains, what youre afraid of or what you imagine.

Seriously, those hyper stupid assertions that are contrary to whats suggested and written just make you look completely stupid.

And pathetically laughable, in case of mongoose brain failure up there.

Quit the flaming festivals y'all, or I'll hit people with a banhammer.

- just a bit of negative circumstances overlapping. The problem with things like those posts is that if i leave them alone it turns out other people believe it because they figure it must be true because i didnt respond.
One of the sad truths about internet communication.

eh...

If i had reported any of these blatantly false and intentionally flaming and flame baiting posts the moderators wouldn't have done anything about it. Except telling me i should just suck it up and shut up as in "you can just ignore those" - which in reality means they can say whatever they want, but i cant respond.

Because ... haha... freedom of speech.


...



Anyway, the subject in the OP and a few explanations after that is a very non specific suggestion altogether.
I havent delved into the engine in details yet so i talk from an angle of what i see in the gameplay and how it feels for someone who got to know the gameplay very well. I cant really say which exact stat or mechanic should be adjusted for what exact amount.

It could be that the mechanics create this "leveling difference problem" by accident. Or just make it look worse then it actually is.

Maybe its just down to differences in individual stats that pile up over one or two levels and so create a somewhat drastic difference (when it comes to enemies difficulty) but it doesnt really look like thats all there is to it.

Especially when one takes a better look at enemy levels penalties specifically, which do seem to be a bit arbitrary and not actually based on any game stat, but basically just invented and added to the game and balanced to fit. Dependent on and tied to numbers of levels alone.

Even if i am wrong and these penalties are actually calculated based on various actual stats of your character and the enemies - its still not the best solution and it still produces results that are not the best. Results that can be changed to make good gameplay better.

And the setting more internally consistent.

Since, as its always the case with such mechanics, it creates a situation where just a few enemies from a later game could easily wipe out the whole opening map. Like silly goblins from the second act being actually severally times more powerful then the strongest bosses in the first part of the game.

Not because the Goblins are such a race or type of en enemy, but simply because they have two levels more.


Similar thing is happening with the skills levels penalties.
I really dont see why i should have something as low as 20% to succeed in something just because en enemy type is one or two levels above my current level. Or have that chance of success of using a spell or an ability - just because i lack one or two points in that magic type or ability.

Or why some enemies suddenly become too easy, just because i got a level or two more.
(btw, this is what mostly created the first release surge of complaints about how the game is too difficult, that then changed into complaints about the game being too easy)



Of course that the most players wont even notice this, or anything else. Of course the most players are just interested in getting a bit of new fresh experience and nothing else.
Then, from the rest - the majority wont even be capable of understanding what i am saying - as is depressingly evident. Then that leads into these ludicrous outbursts of various completely wrong assertions - then anger when those are ridiculed or dismissed.

Altogether a very well known cascade of internet non-logic.
Thats why this post is not written for any of the players, but to the devs.




Of course its not any kind of demand. Of course i welcome any comment from posters who are capable of understanding these very, very, very, very, very, very , very, very, very , very simple ideas.

Liking them is not mandatory (even if thats completely illogical), but understanding IS.

OP: the problem with people not understanding what you are TRYING to say isn't the fault of us but the person (you) obviously not explaining yourself well enough. As your second post you should of spent it explaining yourself better rather than flaming. I chose to ignore that and tried to have a discussion with you, again you say I misunderstood. yet another... Just because you don't understand what I said, doesn't mean I didn't understand you. If I did then explain in a more useful way then. Your English is hard to follow and it isn't because we are lacking... I will go back and re-read...

don't get aggressive because someone miss-understand you. calmly relate what you meant in a more precise manner...

EDIT: Hiver Looking back I actually meant that comment to be directed at Player1... thank for pointing that out rather than... oh...NM

Actually nothing in my post was directed at you but other posters, so why not point that out instead of spewing hate at me?

I was going to come back and make a response to you but got side track by RL and never got around to it. sorry about the mis-understanding of who the action-RPG comment was directed at, but you shouldn't spend 80% of your posts compaining/flaming...

Personally, just like the two you flamed most, I think the balance is just fine, if not too easy (on normal difficulty myself). at level 1-3 I was whooping up on level 6-7 enemies just because of tactics I used, so really no area was off limits to me because the enemy was higher level. When I replayed I did it in correct order, and as expected those same 6-7 enemies were much easier to kill.

The level of enemies is a guide to "you are not ready for this location yet", but that warning can be ignored. 2-4 levels higher than my characters i can beat easily... Only bosses have given me trouble, but they don't land lock you for the most part so you can go past their area and onto the next without fighting them in most cases I've encountered. Avoid them till you are ready for them.

Can you give a specific area/enemy you had trouble with? Maybe the build of your characters? curious as to why you consider it so much harder to take on enemies higher level than you. It might not be that the balance of game need to change, could be that your party is built badly...

I'm NOT a meta gamer so me being able to kill level 6-7 enemies when I'm level 1-3 is a sign the game leans towards too easy... Though that particular case was me exploiting the bad AI...

Actually, with classless system that game uses, it is pretty jarring that equipment has stat requirements.

Especially since spells/talents to not have stat requirements, only penalties if you do not have enough minimum in the stat.

Personally, I think it would enhance gameplay, if game was less strict with equipment stat requirements.

You would get more interesting hybrids of characters, instead pretty much forcing focus on Str, Dex or Int, to get basic equipment.

More choice is better for this type of game.

I disagree, what you'd get is an action RPG with everyone wearing same equipment because stats don't matter. So my mage would be wearing full metal armor. It is the basic RPG format that to were better armor you need STR, to use bows you need DEX, to... etc It not a new concept it what is expected in this type of game and why I play this type of game, because I like that concept. Not saying that your opinion is wrong just that it doesn't fit the genre. to take that concept out of the game would change what type of game it is. Hybrid character are meant to be penalized for being hybrid...

BTW: I chose a class at character creation

Choice is already there. Donï½´t focus. A battlemage with strength 15, intel 10 and speed 10 is quite easy to acheive, can wear a lot of different gear (importantly - high level sarongs) and is still powerful enough.

Only min/maxed characters face difficult gear choices. Opposite to your statement the game actually encourages hybrids, as crowd control is its decisive battle factor.

Regards,
Thorsten

Good Point Thorsten, I did give my fighter one point in two of the spell skills so I could better exploit the bad AI when it comes to oil slicks... though if they weren't as dumb it might not be worth the point

Well, I could always exploit teller of secrets, but where is fun in that...

Crowd control is best with Str, Dex or Int focused characters, since each extra gives +5% against enemy save. Not to mention that when penalized, it turns to -10%.

Yeah I'd rather the AI be smarter and not let you wail on them from a distance because they are afraid of getting the slow penalty applied... I mostly use my fighter as a fighter, but two skill points aren't that much of hybrid. Next time I won't. He is still mainly a fighter...

Every my non-mage character has 1 point of Geomancer.

You can never get enough Spider pets.

Plus, summons are not affected, in any way, by stat penalty (for some reason).

@Phalzyr
For some reason i read "to OP,-" not "to the player1". Sorry, my bad. But the answer is still actually valid and your assertion about action RPG style is utterly and ludicrously wrong.

1. Because this game has many other :censored: stats except the :censored: level numbers, if you understand my :censored: english?

2. Because when false difficulty that depends ONLY on level difference is made less rigid then the actual stats of characters, skills and gear - COME INTO PLAY as primary movers.

3. Because an individual can come to such insane conclusion ONLY if you completely disregard all that i have written.

As is your rather ridiculous assertion that it is my fault for your, and other two or three posters incapability to understand simple sentences and the way this game actually works or how RPGs of this kind should work (more or less).

I was wondering how come nobody tried to use that before you did. I was just waiting for such intellectually broken attempt to simply, yet again - state and assert how you are right and im wrong... just because you say so. Without any relation to whats actually discussed here. Or reality in general.


I didnt have any trouble with any area of the game. (its so great seeing that you also grabbed that broken branch, :applause: - nor i was flaming anyone. I was just returning the favors to two posters who intentionally tried to strawman and flame this thread. And me.

ACTUALLY - IN REALITY.

Are you capable of reading anything at all before replying and writing?
- rhetorical...

What... i should explain something to various random posters who cannot even bother to ask anything but rather start their sentences TELLING ME WHAT I ACTUALLY THINK - and then get angry at me when i tell them where they can shove it?

In so many nice words.

Did you maybe miss me saying this isnt really meant for any of you at all? Because thats obviously completely pointless.
And this very post is another proof of that.



a few quick corrections:


It does no such thing and it even presents what looks like a class based system to the players, right at the start of the game. also, what you say there is actually a completely empty vacuous statement.

The game actually actively discourages hybrid builds by its mechanics and penalties and presentation.
They are still doable - and i have already said several times i play with extreme hybrid builds.

Like Str based rogue-fighter-mage of two or three magic schools, who doesnt use backstabbing or stealth - BECAUSE I DONT NEED TO and because the game is on the easy side once you get familiar with the system.

Which means figuring out that level difference is the most important thing that DEVALUES ALL OTHER STATS AND MAKES THEM SECONDARY.

Which is one of the few main reasons why it should be adjusted.
The other big one is to make gameplay better and less linear.
In ways i have explained.



It isnt. You can win battles with or without it. But you wouldnt know that since youre bad at playing this game to its fullest, noob. (this is how you do factually correct simple sentences)

And hybrids dont have any specialty about crowd control. It only depends on whether you made them that way by choosing such skills abilities and spells - but you dont really need to because there are those companions to take and a party to create. (which means youll have all skills and spells covered - for those that cannot think anymore)

AND the skills of the game ARE crowd control skills by large majority anyway. Every specialized build has its own too.


/*
Again, because im dealing with a few posters who cannot follow a few posts after one another, or read what im actually saying - i actually did not say penalties should be removed.

No that was my fault, I edited it after I realized the typo.



No it isn't, I was referring to Palyer1 post, nothing about what you said. Read his in relation to my reply, and it makes sense. Again just becasue you don't agree with something doesn't make it wrong.

Kind of hard with censored every other word :P J/K


You're failing to understand my English... I am saying there is no false difficulty at play IMO. I've even given you an example that shows levels difference didn't make it hard battle... where are your examples?


simple sentences? I was thinking of asking if English was your second language in my first post, but didn't want to offend... I managed to understand what your saying I just disagree with it, as the other two mentioned... disagreeing with you <> we didn't understand you. I asked you to explain because you seem to think we don't understand you...


If that was true why can't you fight enemies higher level than you? Your main reasoning is they are higher level so I can't explore the area. I can, other can... Who is the one having trouble understanding?

returning a flame is flaming... Calling people names is flaming. saying that people are too stupid to understand you (even if true) is flaming. Seems you don't even understand the concept of what it means to flame. you whole second post was one big flame...

Are you?



Yes it does actually as very few skill points can gain you basic spells. Unsupported? We gave you examples...


Not always. Like the example I gave I got toasted rather no chance of winning till I use crowd control. It isn't that I'm bad player it that they way overpowered/outnumbered me, yet throw in a minor crowd control spell and they didn't even hurt me.


No your saying they should be reduced... we got that, what you fail to follow is that we are saying it is too easy as is and uneeded.

We don't need to agree, people opinions vary. You created a post to talk about penalty overhaul and we came in to state our opinion on that it is not needed. anyone that disagrees with you, you start calling names, saying their opinion are wrong. You have a right to your opinion. I have the right to disagree with it.

- thats not what i said. Buddy.

Go and read written WORDS.



No, it doesnt make any sense even so. Player1 did not suggest that all gear should be available to every build. He suggested it gets reasonable penalties, instead of being completely locked off.

Although, as i said, the game really gives the player plenty of opportunities and ways to mitigate that.



No you dont get that...for f...sake...

HOW can you claim it is too easy or unneeded WHEN YOU HAVE NO IDEA ON THE AMOUNT OF ADJUSTMENTS - and you all completely fail to understand how the game actually works?

You cannot say anything of the sort because you guys are too ignorant to offer anything else except your own ludicrous vacuous assertions based on NOTHING.
Fallacy inside a fallacy wrapped in a fallacy.


Only on the internet for idiots. I already explained that fallacy.




:lol:

this?



jesus f/ing Harold with a tree growing from your head...

:triple facepalm:




No, that not really what happened.

Thats a distorted version created by you. Because you are that incapable of actually understanding anything.

And it has been explained several times over so far.
Which just means you didnt read or cannot understand simple sentences.


Again.

I wrote this for the devs, not for posters like you and that other two. And i just explained that in the previous post!
Read it.

yes it was...



Why don't you re-read what you posted...



I understood what player1 one was wanting, I also didn't say it was a bad thing to want. Just that it doesn't fit in the type of game I want to play... You failing to understand my response to him doesn't make my point invalid. With or without penalties making gear able to be worn by all classes, defeats the whole class based system IMO. If he likes it that way that is fine by me, I don't.



Umm yep I have no clue how to the game works because unlike you I can win against enemies higher level than me. That makes a lot of sense...



Weren't you warned not to flame? Denial doesn't make something not a flame. Consider yourself reported again. once I get done with this post.



It is funny because I proved you wrong?



Again flaming?

You complain about others not understanding,

You know I've never summoned a spider. I typically don't summon things even when I play mages. Not sure why. Next play through I'll have to give that a shot.

Back on topic (if we can get back there). What changes were you thinking of? Though I wouldn't like being non-class, curious about how you see it working in D:OS

This is supposed to be a classless game... (see Devs? see what youve done?) - and what you like or not isnt really an argument about what this game is or should be. Its not relevant.

To say the least.


Its not really nice to laugh at certain kinds of people but i just burst out at this one.

I mean...hahaha... you dont even get that abusing Ai or any other cheesy glich or a mistake is not a part of the game mechanics.

:lol:

and you even brag about it as proof of how you can beat higher level enemies.

:lmao:



Telling the truth is not flaming... but i guess that one is too complicated for you too.


why even tell me this?

Youre... obviously not the sharpest tool in the shed - person, who reports other people posts because you want to get them banned - because you dont like - because you cannot understand it) - ... something.

Just like my posts were reported by those other two intellectually devolved aggressive trolls - with the same purpose. It doesnt have anything to do with the game... just with what you like or want and what you dont like.

And several of their and your exact clones doing exact same things in the past. Even repeating the same devolved inanities almost to the letter.




:lol: nope.

:lol: no, thats not why its funny.


And i think this will be all from you. Plus that pm also was funny.

I think its pretty obvious that this is a class based game, take a look at the skill names in the spread sheets.

Ranger Lore, Warrior Lore, Air Specialist..its not a rigid class system, but it is a class sytem its just that your class is determined by your skills. It's a lot like the Job system of Final Fantasy Tactics imo.

I was thinking of equipment requirements working more like spell requirements.
Like giving "some" penalties if not having optional level of stat.

.

Alternatively, have more "decent" higher level items with lower stat requirements.

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Currently, there is inflation of stat requirements based on item level. So game mechanic forces you to keep investing in one stat in order to be able to use higher level gear.

There is a bit of items with lower stat requirements, but not enough.

For example, mail armors have lower Str requirement then plate. But, they are highly inferior, instead just being somewhat weaker or different then plate.

Then you have maces or hammers that are pretty much most useless kind of single hand weapon. Poor damage, uncraftable...

And crafting system itself is geared toward high stat items. Pretty much all things that you craft require high stats, with no option to craft something weaker with lower stats (without saving stuff crafted a few levels before). It is really difficult to use crafting to make items for hybrid characters that focus on two main stats, instead of one.


For example, if I want to build a "cleric" type character that uses some water magic and warrior weapons, it is difficult to do balancing of two stats, without gimping yourself in warrior equipment. Here Str stat is superior because it is hard cap on equipment, while Int is soft-cap, because you just get penalties if Int is not good enough.


Many of starting "classes" in the game are not really classes, but hybrids, and are also not viable in the long run, due to way how equipment stat requirements scale in the game.

These "classes" are pretty much traps for beginners which are unable to min-max well character stats to get best of their hybrids, without getting inferior characters.

.

To sum up, how I see current system is that there are only 3 "decent" classes:

Strength class
Dexterity class
Intelligence class

With each of them that can be specialized in multiple paths.

Strength class: single with shield or two handed weapons (or both with tenebrium!!!), plate armor (or mail if desperate)
Dexterity class: bow, crossbow or daggers (or ALL with tenebrium!!!), stealth, leather armor
Intelligence class: pick any magic skills you want, staffs for weapons, robes for armor

With each of the classes being able to dip a little in some skills or other classes, but no more then that.


And then, there are "beginner trap" classes:
Battlemage (Str+Int)
Cleric (Str+Int)
Wayfarer (Dex+Int)
Shadowblade (Dex+Int)

Which are pretty much recipe for disaster, if you are not a really skilled player for min-maxing your stats.

First of all, thats not a topic here.

Second, those "classes" you numbered as disasters are not like that at all.
I played a shadowblade (with even added fighting and more magic skills) often and it doesnt require any min-maxing.

You can of course, but it is not required.




See devs?

Ill be the first to suggest a different starting presentation for the next game. If it will be done in the similar classless style.

Bladenite, i dont mind that there are classes in the game. Or the possibility to make such builds.
But, the presets in the character creation and the names of the skills are there just to make it easier for the players.

That just ended up looking as if the game is class based to most of the players.

I consider these level based penalties as a sort of meta skill in the game.
Which has too big of an importance in gameplay - that reduces the importance of actual skills and stats.

It creates this effect where the same type of an enemy is different to you, the player - just because there is a level or two of difference. And then that same encounter becomes too easy just because that level difference was reduced or equalized.

Not to mention that the possibility of even seeing the enemy stats is practically a hand holding option that tells players can they do the fight or not - in a wrong way. A meta way.

Which means it really isnt based on anything thats actually a part of the setting or the story.

Although Larian did it in the best possible way, tying it to the Lore skill so it atleast looks like it has anything to do with the game world.


As an simplified example of reference, ill mention the penalties applied to weapons above your level.
That causes the increase in the AP cost, but that penalty is done in a right way.
The cost increases for one or two points most of the time, which makes it just right. It makes you think about whether to use that weapon or not in just the right way. The cost and the benefits and drawbacks are done just right.

And it makes internal sense more then the other penalties i talk about.

If it was done in the same way as penalties i mentioned as bad, the cost would be 5 or 7 or 10 APs more - which would make that option practically unplayable.


("practically" - actually means that something is not completely locked or closed, btw.)

Make them high cost or very hard to find, that would be nice alternative.



That is how class based systems tend to work, I recall choosing my class at start of game... If I hadn't I wouldn't of expected it to be so rigid.


Agreed, more variety is always better, and also why have a weapon type that doesn't give you an advantage for its lowered damage output. Like you I didn't find certain type to be useful at all, just more clutter for inv.


That sucks, haven't done much crafting myself.


Yes, noticed that as well. I just made all my mages have healing also... That is the only hybrid I was going to play, but in most games cleric get the short stick. In a lot of games they are even limited on type of armor not just by stat. and some even stop you from casting magic while wearing armor above certain type (I hate that game mechanic)



Thanks for explaining for me. I'm not that far into game myself, actually switched to playing WL2 for a while. By the sound of it what they need to do is have INT based armor that is better in later game.

MY mages so far have been able to keep out of the fray for the most part. So armor hasn't been that important for them. If it is becoming more of an issue later in game then an easy solution IMO would be to add better INT/DEX based armors. they don't need to be as good as the STR ones for that would remove the class lines.

Adding a penalty to STR based armor would work out the same but make all character were same type of armor in end.

How far were you into game when you started having trouble? Is it because you get swarmed by enemies and unable to hold them off?

:lol:

Player1: To clarify when I said I haven't played much I meant haven't gotten to late stage game... I got a bit past Cyseal 5 times now, but keep on restaring. Then switched to WL2, will get back to playing WL2 soon... IF time allows... Crazy hard finding time to play lately...

As i was playing the game anew yesterday, playing with only the two Sourcehunters and trying to find the new companions... i ran into a couple of very good examples of what im talking about here.

I got to level 3 fairly easy, doing the very first quests in Cysael and upper western area.

Then by mistake i started a fight with the first group of zombie boars and undead, in the middle of the map, leading to the cave where the Sparkmaster is.

That group is lvl 5, two levels above me.
Without any cheating, cheesing and abusing the game rules or Ai and without careful preparation beforehand i find it a fight that is almost impossible to win. I hold my own for some time ... then i usually get killed off in a series of bad RNG results.

Then there is a group of three lvl 5 zombies next to the northern gate.

I stomp those three very easily. Of course.
The encounter is designed to allow that, with zombies nicely staying in a puddle of poison that just begs to be set on fire.

The true difficulty of these two encounters is not in the penalties reflecting the level difference.
It is in the party composition, their abilities, Ai and environment that dictates your own approaches, based on your characters abilities.


Then i walked a bit to the east and thought to just take out that first Burning Soldier from the left. Cant do anything because my two Sourcehunters at level 3 opposed to a burning soldier at level 8 - results in my chance to hit being 0. Zero.

Why exactly is that?

The burning soldiers arent some agile dodgers. They are massive, relatively slow enemies.
It doesnt seem like a reasonable or sensible thing to see in the game.

I should be able to hit such an enemy, unless he has the ability to transform into air for each hit.
What damage i do with my hits can be a matter of stats, or specific enemy resistances. But not my chance to hit - being only dependent on level difference (as it seems in the gameplay).

I wont be able to win against the burning horde with lvl 3 characters regardless of that 0... so... why is it even in the game?

It just locks the player from even trying to handle some tougher area and promotes gamey meta behavior and exploitation and abuse of games rules.

Nice examples, and presented calmly

I do have a few things to ask.

You mentioned not abusing game mechanics/AI to win. Does that include using tactics? As using CC spells are tactical option. Granted you are right that if you purposely nerf your party to not have CC options, battles are tougher. If the game is balanced for the worst party set-up then we'd see everyone complaining that the game is too easy (not that we don't get enough of that as is)

The burning soldiers would be an extreme case, not the norm. Some places you aren't meant to go to at level 3 and they don't want you to. That might be why they chose penalties, so you'd have some guidance in where you should be going. But having a hard set penalty rather than just the enemy being stronger/better is a bad choice.

If they wasn't a penalty and you have a difficulty killing creatures 2 levels high than you, how exactly do you see removing the penalty being helpful in that case 5 level higher?

Some game I play are designed to be open sand-box and creatures level with the player. I tend to dislike that choice as I never feel like I'm getting stronger. And also that would be hard to balance well in a party system, it is hard enough to balance in solo character.

Please explain how you see altering/removing the penalty system will actually help you explore more sooner? Because as you currently demonstrated in a poorly designed party it too hard to beat enemies 2 levels higher than you let alone 5 level higher...

I was actually surprised the amount of map open to my low level characters only one corner (where those level 8s were) was blocked from my exploration.

Last but not least... How did your party stay level 3 after all that fighting?

EDIT: Sorry read your paragraph about "It is in the party composition" as your composition the first time, not what the enemy was setup as. removed that comment...

I suggest that you stay away from this thread, since i have put you on ignore and i have no intention of reverting that, ever. The only reason im looking at your post now is because you posted in my thread, again, after being told several times to ... you know what and where.

For me you are what i told you in the PM. It wasnt anger speaking.

Otherwise you simply lack incredible amounts of knowledge and experience with this game to offer any relevant info or thoughts about any of it. Not to mention blatant lack of intelligence or common sense.

Asking question like you do above and insinuating that i would somehow want level scaling is enough for me to bash your face in... in real life.

So, stop polluting my thread with what you "did" or didnt understand. And whatever falls out of that.

Because all that will do is confuse other people reading this.

It has nothing to do with what i am saying at all.

Never said you wanted level scaling, another poster mentioned it and I was just referring to that style as it came to mind... Why does everything you read have to be about you? I don't see anyone else confused by my posts just you... and you seem to say that to everyone that disagrees with you.

I asked you questions so that you could explain better the way you explain some things contradicts other thing you say, and I was just trying to understand you better.

Asking questions about what you said has nothing to do with what you said?

I was being polite, to your polite post but then you respond by flaming

As i said above and despite this latest attempt at distorting what im saying, unwitting as it may be, from someone i aksed to stop spamming my thread already... and put on ignore...


...

The examples given above clearly show that actual difficulty of an encounter is not in the few arbitrary penalties that depend on level differences alone.
Of course, removing or adjusting those does not mean that suddenly there would be no difficult enemies.

It only means that the true difficulty of an encounter should be returned to dependence on enemy abilities, stats, skills, Ai, the overall encounter design, enemy groups composition and the environment.

Instead of some sort of meta "penalties" that are just invented and thrown over it.


Which, in the end will mean that combat encounters would be even more difficult, both with higher level enemies and lower level enemies.
Instead of current situation where higher level enemies are too strong and low are too easy.


I already said all that in previous posts too.
Its just that i have to repeat it, otherwise any random reader will think these ludicrous posts by few posters above are somehow true.

And if you read my posts, most of your last post wouldn't of need to been said yet again. I said I agree with removing penalties and just making tougher enemies tougher based on their own strength rather than penalty.

However that wasn't the only point you made, or the only thing you posted about. I was asking about other things you posted. I.E. not being able to explore as well as you'd like because of penalty based on enemy levels. That won't change by penalty removal itself, unless they adjust the balance of enemies.

Maybe that is why you are so confused, do you think people can only talk about your main point? Ignoring everything else you said? take stuff out of context much?