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Sneaking is too effective.

Posted By: Gyson

Sneaking is too effective. - 28/01/14 05:12 PM

In my game the Legion commander is facing a bookshelf, with his back to most of the room. I can turn on sneak (with no points in the skill) and take every single item from his room (even the books on the shelves in front of him) without him noticing.

That just shouldn't be possible. I'm not even sure if it should be possible with a large point investment in sneaking. Even if people don't notice you, they should notice items vanishing right in front of their eyes.
Posted By: X-tasy

Re: Sneaking is too effective. - 28/01/14 05:25 PM

Why not there is no crime if nobody is watching.
Posted By: Gyson

Re: Sneaking is too effective. - 28/01/14 05:31 PM

Originally Posted by X-tasy
Why not there is no crime if nobody is watching.

Because people have senses available to them other than just sight, and someone with no skill in sneaking should not be able to make movements to the point of successfully wiping and pocketing items when they're a) the only other person in the room and b) a foot away from the owner.

Also, NPCs should not be that stupid. Your reputation should start to suffer if you're cleaning out the town - seen or not. "Every time Bob visits a house, all the pillows and kitchenwear go missing.. hmm...". It doesn't take much to put two and two together.

If you want to be a good thief, you should have to invest serious points into it. The same with every skill. In this case, points in sneaking, points in social skills like charm to make you a less likely suspect, etc..

Posted By: Dimos

Re: Sneaking is too effective. - 28/01/14 05:33 PM

I agree that it's too effective when it comes to robbing the NPCs blind. While you might argue it's realistic that if he didn't see you take it, then how can he know you stole it - you'd think the NPC would hear you shuffling through their stuff, they'd notice that stuff went missing, etc.

This is especially bad with NPCs who don't move and aren't facing anything particularly valuable.

I have a few ideas that might help fix this - maybe increase an NPC's field of view based on the character's sneak level (though I don't know if this is possible with the engine), or you could add a bit of a cooldown on the sneak ability after a character has been seen (something like 4-5 seconds from the last time he was seen by an NPC - this could also be reduced by sneak level).

At the very least I'd like to see NPCs have a lower opinion of you, if things have a tendency "magically disappear" when you're around - even if the NPC doesn't catch you in the act.
Posted By: Elwyn

Re: Sneaking is too effective. - 28/01/14 07:24 PM

*Joining the queue of people who think that sneaking is too over-powered*

So, first of all let me say that I love robbing NPC's homes of all their stuff and sneaking behind their backs. However, in its current state sneaking is far to easy and does not have any negative consequences. So, since this is almost no challenge, the fun factor also decreases very quickly.

I would rather see the following design for sneaking and stealing:

- Right now, sneaking is available for free from the very beginning. It would be great if it would be changed to an attribute of a thief so that you would have to put points in it.

- The NPC's field of view is very small right now. In reality, a human being has a field of view of 180 degrees. So, it would be great if the NPC's field of view would be increased

- Would it possible to also introduce the hearing ability of NPC's? So, if you try to break a door down, you make lots of noise and consequently all NPC's in the vicinity come and check what is going on.

- As others have said, it would be great if NPC's would associate their missing stuff with your presence and begin to suspect you. It shouldn't be the case for each and every plate and cup, but if you keep robbing their houses and more and more stuff goes missing, they should have a lower opinion of you.
Posted By: Stabbey

Re: Sneaking is too effective. - 28/01/14 07:33 PM

Sneaking may be too effective, but I do like the way it's implemented, with the hilarious bushes, and the greyscale/colour dynamic to indicate lines of sight where you risk getting caught if you enter.

In Beyond Divinity, everyone could sneak from the start, but if you had no points into the Sneak skill, the enemy sight radius was really big. With one point into it, it became significantly smaller. You could sneak without training, but you needed to train your Sneak skill for it to be useful.

In another thread, I'm not sure who came up with the original idea, but it was suggested that stealing enough stuff could get you a negative trait. Here's my contribution to that idea:

Quote
Maybe there could be some kind of "Shoplifter" trait you get for stealing 50 items, than another "upgraded version" of the trait at 100 Items ("Thief"), and another upgraded version at 250/500 stolen items ("Kleptomaniac"). These traits would have a negative side-effect for your reputation ( and/or initial disposition), although I'm not sure what the positive sides would be. It should make sense, because if you do it enough, even if no one sees you, there are bound to be a lot of times you steal before or after an NPC sees you and suspicious would rise.


It could also affect merchant prices as well.
Posted By: lokitrixter

Re: Sneaking is too effective. - 28/01/14 08:14 PM

I like stealing as it is in the game currently. Maybe minor things like merchant prices or people having a lower opinion of you because you seem shady are okay. But putting too much restriction on it will then turn some people off from stealing entirely. I wouldn't want to feel like I have to play a certain way. For those who don't want to steal you won't. For those of us that do want to steal we will. If the NPC's will start to associate their missing things with me, then I should be able to Charm/Reason/Intimidate my way out of the situation. Also any negative factor should have a way to offset it as well. So merchant prices are now higher? I should be able to put points into some stat/trait to bring it back to normal. Same with opinion. So this way if I want to be a thief I would be a charismatic, silver-tongued one.
Posted By: Gyson

Re: Sneaking is too effective. - 30/01/14 11:40 PM

Originally Posted by lokitrixter
I like stealing as it is in the game currently. Maybe minor things like merchant prices or people having a lower opinion of you because you seem shady are okay. But putting too much restriction on it will then turn some people off from stealing entirely. I wouldn't want to feel like I have to play a certain way. For those who don't want to steal you won't. For those of us that do want to steal we will. If the NPC's will start to associate their missing things with me, then I should be able to Charm/Reason/Intimidate my way out of the situation. Also any negative factor should have a way to offset it as well. So merchant prices are now higher? I should be able to put points into some stat/trait to bring it back to normal. Same with opinion. So this way if I want to be a thief I would be a charismatic, silver-tongued one.


Yeah, I have no problems with stealing being effective if players are willing to commit (points) to that role. Heavy point investments placed in sneaking, lockpicking and pickpocketing should allow you to get away with these acts without getting caught. However, even though a character doesn't get caught, NPCs should be smart enough to realize the town is being cleaned out after a certain someone (the player) showed up. Investing heavily in social skills should be required to help offset the consequences of that.
Posted By: lokitrixter

Re: Sneaking is too effective. - 30/01/14 11:59 PM

The NPC's could be a lot smarter in a bunch of ways. I had a patrolling guard walk through the market area after I had slaughtered everyone and he made no remark on any of it. Also he went off to talk to some guards who were already dead and talked to himself. I think he was crazy so I put him out of his misery.
Posted By: Gyson

Re: Sneaking is too effective. - 31/01/14 12:13 AM

Originally Posted by lokitrixter
The NPC's could be a lot smarter in a bunch of ways. I had a patrolling guard walk through the market area after I had slaughtered everyone and he made no remark on any of it. Also he went off to talk to some guards who were already dead and talked to himself. I think he was crazy so I put him out of his misery.


This is the point where the thread just got really weird.

(kidding) smile

No, really though.. suspicion
Posted By: Ithiloneth

Re: Sneaking is too effective. - 31/01/14 01:55 PM

Agreed, this would also help balance out the crazy amount of gold you can make from looting other people's things. It simply does not seem fair that evil characters can gain soo much stuff for virtually no points invested.
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