Larian Studios
Posted By: Hiver Mods for sale, with official support ? - 03/07/14 08:49 AM
How about maybe doing something like Unreal tournament devs plan to do and make some kind of a deal where the best of the mods would be sold - through Steam for ease of use - with Larian studios official support and under their control ?

We all know that the biggest mods often take some very dedicated amateur teams or individuals spending lot of time and effort.
Often years.

Im thinking that such big efforts should be rewarded in more substantial ways then just people saying "oh, nice".

With Steam there is now such a possibility.


What im thinking is basically this:

Larian studios decides which mod is good enough to enter into this specific category. They would serve as curators and quality control judges.

They would also get a part of eventual earnings - because they made all this possible and its only fair. Of course.

They would also decide for what price these few select mods would be sold.

Im thinking something in the range of a few dollars or euros... maybe up to 10 euros at the most, for the biggest and best ones. Those would be either total conversions or new original campaigns the size of OS, approximately.


All this being under Larian studios control would ensure that some of the usual cheap "hacks" we all know about aren't sold and that the devs also profit from this - which would then all go into future games development, etc, etc.




---



I think this kind of dev - fans cooperation would be very beneficial for both. In many different ways, yes?

So, im just making this suggestion for everyone to think about it.
Posted By: Mixxer5 Re: Mods for sale, with official support ? - 03/07/14 02:11 PM
Well, I remember such initiative for Neverwinter Nights. "Players" made HQ mods for developers, devs (sometimes) provided voiceover for NPCs, at the end it was sold as kind of dlc. It's a good idea I think.
Posted By: Hiver Re: Mods for sale, with official support ? - 03/07/14 03:17 PM
No need for voiceovers, i think... but whatever people decide.
I dont need them, personally. (currently im playing and disliking these two people who took over MY Source Hunters a lot. Thats certainly not my Roderick talking there and especially not MY Scarlet)

:P

...


The main point of this is to enable Larian studios to earn more from their game, expand the content and the game itself, - and enhance the community interaction which only pays back good dividends, but that modders who do the best works also get something from it, because making big mods is very demanding and costly work. In time and therefore various personal expenses.

Details would need to be thought about and arranged but overall, i think such a setup is good for everyone. Or would be, if it can be agreed upon.

If some sort of relatively simple arrangement could be made - this would be a win-win deal for everyone.



It would also result in players getting much better quality mods then its usual.


Hi Hiver, I know this is an old post but I think your ideas are very valid ones indeed. A game like this deserves such a system and quality in mods is only a good thing. I have been browsing the forum over the last two days because I have just started a new world and completely new storyline. As you say, the hours of work are phenomenal when it comes to creating a "whole new game experience" using this wonderful engine.

Thanks for your post.
Posted By: henryv Re: Mods for sale, with official support ? - 19/07/14 12:22 AM
I don't know if this qualifies, but "to the moon" game sold a lot especially with pewdiepie's let's play of the game. It was made using RPGMaker and was sold separately in steam. I don't know if a deal was made between the RPGMaker creators and "To the Moon" creator or buying the RPGMaker gives you the right to monetize all creation. Could be a good study for Larian if they were to utilize their editor this way.
Posted By: Gotcha! Re: Mods for sale, with official support ? - 19/07/14 01:46 AM
I don't see a problem with asking for donations for your mods, but downright selling them to the public... I hope Larian (or any other game company out there) will never allow this.
Posted By: henryv Re: Mods for sale, with official support ? - 19/07/14 07:15 AM
Originally Posted by Gotcha!
I don't see a problem with asking for donations for your mods, but downright selling them to the public... I hope Larian (or any other game company out there) will never allow this.


Read what I just stated here:

Originally Posted by henryv
I don't know if this qualifies, but "to the moon" game sold a lot especially with pewdiepie's let's play of the game. It was made using RPGMaker and was sold separately in steam. I don't know if a deal was made between the RPGMaker creators and "To the Moon" creator or buying the RPGMaker gives you the right to monetize all creation. Could be a good study for Larian if they were to utilize their editor this way.


RPGMaker is a tool to create worlds and is sold at steam. Divinity Engine editor is a tool to create worlds/mods which comes in a package with Divinity Original Sin.

To the Moon is a game released separately from RPGMaker. The owner enjoys free writing and transformed it into profit. I don't see anything wrong with that.

There are others who are motivated to work for money. There are others who are motivated to work because its their hobby. To each his own.

I don't know why there is such hate at people who are motivated to do something because of monetary needs.
Posted By: Cromcrom Re: Mods for sale, with official support ? - 19/07/14 10:29 AM
Let's say I work for hours, and come up we a pretty nice script, I share for free.
You take it and use it in the mod you sell.
Wtf ?
Are you gonna pay me for my generously shared hard work ? Are you the only one to take advantage of it?
Why would I share anything if you make money out of it and I am the fool ?
So, this might be the death of sharing.
Just take Mount and blade.
Only the most prestigious mods got sold. EVERYTHING else is free, the community being very dedicated about that. Result is a very old game that still has masses of followers, because of the great spirit and mods behind them.
NWN2 toolset was free, mods were free, the community is still strong behind it.

Posted By: Bucket Re: Mods for sale, with official support ? - 19/07/14 11:32 AM
I can't say that I agree. I hated the whole idea of DLC when that first happened. Paying money for parts that are simply left out before release?!
I have never seen DLC worth it's price.
You know, add-ons and expansions, back in the day, they were 1/2, 2/3 or 3/4 of the price of the base game, but they added content equal to the price ratio. Paying 10 for what will likely be 1% of the game is not what I would call a fair deal.
No one who was a regular gamer before the DLC junk started would disagree. Paying more money for less content than what was established? No way.

From a business perspective, I think your idea might work out.
Unfortunately, contrary to above opinion, todays global playerbase prefers to overpay for their games. Not to mention they prefer to believe whatever lies publishers tell them, simply because it sounds promising or the marketing looks good. (Anyone remember Todd Howard? Morrowind was okay. Oblivion was crap. Skyrim is between MW and O. But barely anyone today would agree.)
Posted By: eRe4s3r Re: Mods for sale, with official support ? - 19/07/14 11:42 AM
If you post your assets here, it would imho be a good idea if forum rules demanded that it's done under a CC license to begin with. Personally I would post stuff (if the editor ever comes to that) under this license...

http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/4.0/
(CC BY-NC-SA 4.0)
Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike 4.0 International

Attribution:
You must give appropriate credit, provide a link to the license, and indicate if changes were made. You may do so in any reasonable manner, but not in any way that suggests the licensor endorses you or your use.

NonCommercial:
You may not use the material for commercial purposes.

ShareAlike:
If you remix, transform, or build upon the material, you must distribute your contributions under the same license as the original.

That way, nobody would have a pointless argument over what to do with scripts and assets, define what people can do from the outset and the problem is solved.
Posted By: dsvw56 Re: Mods for sale, with official support ? - 19/07/14 11:53 AM

Originally Posted by henryv
RPGMaker is a tool to create worlds and is sold at steam. Divinity Engine editor is a tool to create worlds/mods which comes in a package with Divinity Original Sin.

To the Moon is a game released separately from RPGMaker. The owner enjoys free writing and transformed it into profit. I don't see anything wrong with that.

There are others who are motivated to work for money. There are others who are motivated to work because its their hobby. To each his own.

I don't know why there is such hate at people who are motivated to do something because of monetary needs.


The reason so many people are against monetizing mods is because it goes against everything the mod community is about. And if you can't see the difference between something like RPG Maker and a modding toolkit, I'm not sure what to say.
Originally Posted by Gotcha!
I don't see a problem with asking for donations for your mods, but downright selling them to the public... I hope Larian (or any other game company out there) will never allow this.


I know why you think that, but you would get better quality if they could sell them. Some fear if you allow selling, then everything will cost. But imo most things by far would still be free, that precedence was set a long time ago. However major makeovers are worthy of $$$. Are you paying for a Speed Mod? No. Are you paying for a model? No. A re-balance mod? No. Nehrim for Oblivion? Perhaps.

Figure this happens all the time:

Should I soak 12 months into a mod with no chance of a return as a cool community thing, while rent is still due? Or can I come up with something small to do with Unity and have a chance at it paying the land lord? We have to figure in a capitalistic world this is a common thought for anyone. I also don't think it's necessarily right that we should expect all things of this manner to be free, what have you done for a year for free in a manner like this?

If there were a way for mod'ers who create epic content to be able to sell it, you always have the right to not buy. But allowing it will bring better developers into the mix who can and will get things done. The win for you is a quality mod in the game engine you enjoy, so most things would still have the D:OS flavor in them vs an indy just making something in Unity would have zero D:OS in it.

I predict that in the next handful of years there will be this new avenue for indy development as that scene continues to expand. Someone will see this from the Main Game Dev POV and say "What the hell, why not?" (they get a % cut) and if the engine and tools are great, it will be a hit for everyone. Why have all Indy's go to 3 General Game Dev Tools, when they could choose a specific game engines to have an even faster development cycle for themselves to keep costs and time down.

I for one would certainly pay for quality, I do all the time. I'd pay for a quality expansion, a quality mod could be approaching or as good as an expansion. I am very much price/performance based, there is no reason mod couldn't be quality and there is no reason why I should expect that quality to be free when everything else costs.

If I were here to sell the idea of Kickstarter to you before it existed, I'd be laughed at and hoped to God something like that would never happen, it would destroy games. That's how general audiences work, fear of the worst. But forward to today's reality, Kickstarter is a good idea and look at what comes from it. So instead of thinking the easy "no cash for mods, non-negotiable" think of what could be if we had more and better devs developing on the D:OS Engine. Perhaps a handful of real quality offerings each year for a $5 or $10 spot that I could decide on.

For us defending capitalism everywhere, we sure want our communistic freebies! smile Only the very best, with tons of hours would ever be quality enough to ask for $.
Posted By: Bucket Re: Mods for sale, with official support ? - 19/07/14 05:11 PM
Originally Posted by Horrorscope
I know why you think that, but you would get better quality if they could sell them.

That is not true. In fact, the opposite is more likely.
People will see an easy way to make money and use the least amount of effort possible. Hey presto, mods that cost, but don't add a lot!
Now let's look at how modding communities are for games that are still open to modding, these days:
Modder enjoys game, enjoys modding.
Modder puts in time and effort to create something, shares it with the rest of the world.
Modder feels happy his work is enjoyed by others and continues to provide support through fixes or expansion.

Now, someone who made some easy cash will never put in more effort than they feel is 'justified' by their earnings.
You can see this happening on developer level these days. Just look at EA/Battlefield or the high amount of unfinished early access or beta games, even if the latter somehow got gold status. (Released as full game but is obviously lacking a lot.)
Posted By: Gotcha! Re: Mods for sale, with official support ? - 19/07/14 05:48 PM
Originally Posted by Horrorscope
-snip-


Like Bucket said, if Larian would allow mods to be sold it'd start a shitstorm of lousy mods created through greed. Consequences could vary, but I think there'd definitely be a risk that Larian's good name would get a hit if they'd allow these practices.

There are many moddable games and many great mods created for these games. People spend a lot of time on these mods because they love making them. I spend a lot of time in my life modding lots of games as a hobby. I don't feel I should be paid for that. The software I'd create a mod for isn't my property and the tools I use are provided for me, free of charge. I count my luck that I'm even allowed by developers to mod their game in the first place.

Yes, modding is a time sink. Should you be paid for spend time? Watching 4 seasons of Game of Thrones is a time sink too. I don't think people deserve to be paid while watching though. (Strange comparison? I consider both to be hobbies.)

Modders need to pay the rent? Understandable, but making mods isn't really a job, unless you're lucky enough to work for a nice game company. So people would have to mod in their free time.
There's absolutely no problem with asking for donations though, especially because people get the chance to try out your mod without paying for it first. And if someone makes a decent campaign for D:OS, I guarantee that a lot of people will gladly donate after they see how much work was put into it.
Heck, maybe your mod would be noticed by Larian or whoever and get yourself hired.


You won't see me defending capitalism. Personally I get more and more sick of people who just try to make a quick buck wherever they can. The world would be a much nicer place with a little less greed. (+1 Romantic) (I am poor as crap by the way, and I really don't care about not participating in life's big money race.)
I'm glad most modders out there apparently feel the same. Nexus is a great example of that.
Originally Posted by Bucket
Originally Posted by Horrorscope
I know why you think that, but you would get better quality if they could sell them.

That is not true. In fact, the opposite is more likely.
People will see an easy way to make money and use the least amount of effort possible. Hey presto, mods that cost, but don't add a lot!
Now let's look at how modding communities are for games that are still open to modding, these days:
Modder enjoys game, enjoys modding.
Modder puts in time and effort to create something, shares it with the rest of the world.
Modder feels happy his work is enjoyed by others and continues to provide support through fixes or expansion.

Now, someone who made some easy cash will never put in more effort than they feel is 'justified' by their earnings.
You can see this happening on developer level these days. Just look at EA/Battlefield or the high amount of unfinished early access or beta games, even if the latter somehow got gold status. (Released as full game but is obviously lacking a lot.)


My counters:

1. Fear of unknown territory.

2. Products for money have a fair tendency being better than free products.

3. Modders are people with bills to. Plenty of people enjoy things and make money doing it. Modders still have option of doing any of it free. I offer choice, others offer restrictions, in general the restrictions go against the norm of every day life. Expecting others to do something for your entertainment for free, however they themselves do nothing of great time for free.

4. I think we are in general wrong with thinking modders "have" to live in some type of free product environment. We don't know know what we could be missing if this wasn't the assumption. I also believe most mods would still be free as Price/Performance would have to be worth it for people to shell out dollars.

5. I look at the D:OS engine as a restricted rapid development tool. Like Unity, but less open, but faster. One world can make money and the other is expected to do it pro bono. To me it is the results of the product that should deem if something is worth selling.

Like anything unknown, there is assumption. I still fall back on things like Kickstarter, before it existed the thought of it working would in general be poo poo'd. Sort of like Uber or any other out of box start-up. That is why some people are entrepreneurs and others are hirees. It's like you have to first make the questionable step for others to see it and go "Ah ha!". Whatever you've seen with mods, imo would be more and better if there was a reasonable avenue to make some extra money from them on, again only very few great mods would ever be worthy of buying.

I'm not asking nor expecting Larian to pioneer this. But I do predict it will come, it will be a sub-set of the Indy surgence and when we look back at it, we will see it as generally a win for both sides, people deservingly so making some cash and gamers enjoying their offerings.
Posted By: Tiaexz Re: Mods for sale, with official support ? - 19/07/14 06:07 PM
I think my Horse Armour DLC will be worth the $5 I charge for it. You have a choice of Elven or rugged Steel. The workload required will multiply once Larian implements mounts into the game too.
Originally Posted by Tiaexz
I think my Horse Armour DLC will be worth the $5 I charge for it. You have a choice of Elven or rugged Steel. The workload required will multiply once Larian implements mounts into the game too.


Right and no one would buy it, you/me aren't Bethesda. We are thinking worst case things that the market would dictate immediately. The easier things like this wouldn't change. I don't expect people to see my side much, since they are used to the status quo. What I'm saying overall is you aren't getting what you could or better yet what you want, because you dream of things that are too much to do for free.
Posted By: Gotcha! Re: Mods for sale, with official support ? - 19/07/14 06:39 PM
Originally Posted by Horrorscope
-snip-


2. True in the world of solid objects. Absolutely not true in the world of software.
Some of the best software out there is available free of charge. And games wise I seem to enjoy low cost indie games a lot more than those 50/60 euro pieces of crap that big game companies pump out.
Thankfully I stopped buying EA/Ubisoft/Activision games a long time ago and Blizzard has been added to my list as well.
Posted By: Bucket Re: Mods for sale, with official support ? - 19/07/14 08:33 PM
Originally Posted by Tiaexz
I think my Horse Armour DLC will be worth the $5 I charge for it. You have a choice of Elven or rugged Steel. The workload required will multiply once Larian implements mounts into the game too.

I caught your sarcasm, good sir!
Posted By: henryv Re: Mods for sale, with official support ? - 20/07/14 03:37 AM
Originally Posted by dsvw56

Originally Posted by henryv
RPGMaker is a tool to create worlds and is sold at steam. Divinity Engine editor is a tool to create worlds/mods which comes in a package with Divinity Original Sin.

To the Moon is a game released separately from RPGMaker. The owner enjoys free writing and transformed it into profit. I don't see anything wrong with that.

There are others who are motivated to work for money. There are others who are motivated to work because its their hobby. To each his own.

I don't know why there is such hate at people who are motivated to do something because of monetary needs.


The reason so many people are against monetizing mods is because it goes against everything the mod community is about. And if you can't see the difference between something like RPG Maker and a modding toolkit, I'm not sure what to say.


I just disagree with the "official support" the op wanted regarding created mods. Larian and the modders should be a separate entity.

I also ask you, what is a mod community about? As I've mentioned before, there are people who are driven to work because of money or hobby. They can also be both. From the description of a mod, it is the alteration of the program code of a video game in order to make it operate in a manner different from its original version.

There are games that started from modding that tried to sell itself such as fall from heaven (Civilization IV), Magna Mundi (Europa Universalis 3), and DOTA (Warcraft III). We all know what happened with Magna Mundi as it got the axe from the publishing company, Paradox Interactive. DOTA got inevitably famous and now has a million of dollars to be given away for international tournaments. Spin offs from DOTA was also created such as Heroes of Newerth, League of Legends, and the upcoming Heroes of the Storm.

I think swen mentioned about having to use the toolkit to be able to produce a game that the game creators could sell.

Now, Let's talk about risk from a modder's point of view when creating games for money. It's unfavorable against them since you said there are a lot of people that are against in monetizing mods. MOdders that do monetize also has a normal game developer's risk such as logistics, how to sell their game, and whatnot. Everything is on the negative if you look at it so why won't it defer to create their games to get some money?

EDIT: and, another point of view, how many times did you see a mod die? What is the reason of the modders most of the time? So far, I've seen Reality is in the way or probably monetary needs. There are others that die because modder's interest just diminished.
Posted By: Magissia Re: Mods for sale, with official support ? - 23/07/14 01:36 AM
On my point of view, no problem to pay for a mod, but if i pay for a mod, i won't forgive errors and bugs, while mods i get for free (most) are pre apologized, because it's people that made it for the community on their free time and not to earn money on it.
Posted By: henryv Re: Mods for sale, with official support ? - 23/07/14 03:32 AM
Originally Posted by Magissia
On my point of view, no problem to pay for a mod, but if i pay for a mod, i won't forgive errors and bugs, while mods i get for free (most) are pre apologized, because it's people that made it for the community on their free time and not to earn money on it.


I agree. User ratings or critic reviews will come in from how disastrous the mod will be and it'll have a snowball effect to potential consumers of the mod. I doubt there will be free bugs or whatnot but there needs to be a tolerable amount of bugs against the overall picture.

The topic of the creator though is having larian support the mod for DLC of the original game which I'm against. I'll be honest, I thought the topic was for making mods to sell which larian has no official business with except lending the divinity engine with the editor toolkit and whatnot.
Posted By: Hiver Re: Mods for sale, with official support ? - 23/07/14 10:16 AM
Ill answer all of the posts above without much quoting since it would blow into something difficult to read.

Several posters above noted they wouldnt agree with something like this but you all misunderstand what i proposed.



1. The various small usual mods would not be charged, as usual. Ever.


2. Larian studios must have curating responsibility and the final say in what could be sold or not.
This would ensure that no inappropriate content is sold and that those who could be sold get a proper quality testing (community should play a role here too) and are up to a certain quality standard.


3. Only huge mods, completely whole new campaigns, stories and big expansions and such would be considered as a material for official support of this kind. And again, would only be put up for sale IF Larian studios deems them good enough.


- All this would completely prevent people just putting in garbage for sale and would also completely prevent Larian studios getting any bad rep because of it.


***


It would also help more serious modding teams to stick it out and actually create whole new games in the Divinity editor - which cannot be done without spending at least a year working on them.

Big mods are huge efforts - even with the editor - and we wont see many of those if there is no valuable motivation and reward for people to stick working on them over a long time.

This would also affect the production of these mods to be relatively shorter. Since it would provide direct and big motivation for people to keep working, stick together, not to argue, not to leave the modding team for any random reason - which is what usually happens with big mods. (it would still happen of course but much less overall)

And therefore to get these mods done relatively faster, overall.

I could name many such ambitious mods that fell apart and were abandoned as im sure you all can too.


***


Personally, i see no problem with paying 5 or 10 euros (random prices figures there) for a whole new game and thus directly rewarding the work and effort some people put into making it.
Which would ensure i would get more of those down the line.

Of course, this would not be mandatory at all. So anyone who doesnt want to try for this option would not need to. And even if they try it - Larian studios would have the final say and therefore quality assurance would be enforced.



Originally Posted by Filmogriter
Hi Hiver, I know this is an old post but I think your ideas are very valid ones indeed. A game like this deserves such a system and quality in mods is only a good thing. I have been browsing the forum over the last two days because I have just started a new world and completely new storyline. As you say, the hours of work are phenomenal when it comes to creating a "whole new game experience" using this wonderful engine.

Thanks for your post.


Hey, no probs. Hopefully something good comes out of it.
Posted By: Kriss Re: Mods for sale, with official support ? - 23/07/14 11:35 AM
How about no.
Posted By: Hiver Re: Mods for sale, with official support ? - 23/07/14 12:39 PM
How about actually reading and understanding the proposition and not replying with nonsensical one liners for simpletons?

How about understanding that just spamming posts over two threads wont make you any less nonsensical or your "desire" any more pointless and completely out of touch with the suggestion as it is presented?

Yes, thats too complicated and hard to to do.



***



One thing in regards to one of the above nonsense posts.

I see one poster throwing strawmen declaratory statements while clearly not even bothering to read anything except the title. Which probably flooded the logic circuits by itself.

The issue he strawmans in is the notion of "greed".

Like, he means to say that a mod team of two, three - five people, or one individual who go and spend a year or more working on and making a whole new campaign or practically a whole new game - would be "greedy" to ask for or hope for any reward for it.

Greedy, get it?

Its not him thats actually fueled by pure greed. Fantasizing about such big additions to the game, mods, expansions, new campaigns, etc. being completely free for him. Specifically.

Oh no, its the ones that worked their butts off that are "greedy".

Right.



***



I SPECIFICALLY SAID that any money earned with this new kind of arrangement with modding community will be split between Larian studios and the modders. I EXPLAINED THIS IN OP ALREADY.

So modders would not get "all the moneys" at all. This is only fair and i doubt any modder would want anything different.


If the mod is good and people like it - any big amounts of money earned would be gained through big numbers of sales through steam - and that would mean more money for Larian studios.

Point.




***



- I myself am planning to make a bigger mod, and even a completely new story if i see i can cut it.
Even if you presume i would be setting up the price myself - which i would not want to and i think it should be decided by Larians in the end - i would not ask any big amount. A few euros would be enough.

If the mod is good and people like it - any big amounts of money earned would be gained through big numbers of sales through steam - and that would mean more money for Larian studios.



Point.


Any money left over for me or any other modders working with me, be it a few hundred euros or maybe hypothetical few thousands - would surely be nice thing to get for spending so much time and work hours on creating it.

I could buy myself a nice jacket or a pair of pants, or sneakers, maybe even pay a portion of my bills if i luck out with it.
Which would make spending so much time and effort on this valuable to me.

And i presume to other such modders.

Keep in mind that currently i have no idea if im going to be able to actually deliver. I will need to prove that.



***



Now, this is just an early discussion about this idea and everyone are "free" to voice their agreements or disagreements with it - preferably while being able to read and understand simple English language.

But if this turns out to be interesting to devs and moves toward more serious discussion i suggest leaving any ordinary greedy users out of it and discussing details only with actual modders.

Meaning those who actually make any kind of real mod in Divinity Engine.



***



Lets also keep in mid that having an option like this would attract more serious modders too, except strengthening and supporting any eventual modding teams or individuals already here - and that would benefit us all, in the end.

Posted By: Bucket Re: Mods for sale, with official support ? - 23/07/14 02:49 PM
There seems to be a lot of personal drive behind your reasoning. Although you've been met with some valid counter-arguments, you prefer to think that anyone else just misunderstood you.
The principle of a discussion like this is to get your point across to someone else.
It's up to you to convince someone else, not everyone else to try and understand you.
If you feel people aren't getting what you mean, try rephrasing and keep the blame away.
We aren't out to hurt you, you aren't out to hurt us.
Not sure what you aim to achieve when you wrote "point" so boldly, but it sure isn't going to convince us that you actually have a point. That rests in your ability to convey your message.

In regards to the topic, on a whole, it will never work and only promise demise.
I'm not going to repeat all the reasons why, they've been covered by multiple posters already.
If your method would work, it would have been applied a long time ago.
Look at how DLC forced itself into the market. Only casuals liked the idea, but most never seemed to have grasped what it would end up as. A pile of shit that people still pay for.
Posted By: Hiver Re: Mods for sale, with official support ? - 23/07/14 03:09 PM
- It would be pointless and quite inane if i would, for some insane reason, try to hide that im considering doing a bigger, full campaign/different story mod - considering its in my bloody signature and i keep mentioning it all around!


- Just saying that "ive been met with some valid counter arguments" is an empty declaratory statement with no bases in reality. Learn to actually explain your statements and support them with anything real before spouting them around.


- No its not up to me to convince a couple of posters who cannot read or understand simple english, about anything. IT IS your responsibility to actually READ what someone is saying and understand what exactly that is before replying to it.

Not misunderstand everything, read just the title, coming up with various assumptions and then arguing against those very same assumptions that you yourself came up with!
And then demand from me to convince you about anything - which is completely laughable demand to prove double negative.


- Your last paragraph - again - has nothing to do with what i wrote and suggested. And it is based on even more empty nonsensical declaratory statements that are not supported by anything or connected with what im suggesting or saying - and some nonsense about DLC - which has nothing to do with any of this.


The Point - refers to a logic point. No wonder you are unable to comprehend such a simple thing, seeing in what rush you are to just force your opinion as somehow relevant to anything i suggested.


Which leads me to conclude you didnt read what i am saying at all.

Which makes your posts pointless and you completely irrelevant as someone to discuss this idea with.
Posted By: Bucket Re: Mods for sale, with official support ? - 23/07/14 05:10 PM
I'm sorry that it has offended you that I disagree with you on this topic.
I hope that it will not affect other interactions between us on different topics.
Lastly, I would like for this matter, as far as it concerns us two, to be considered closed.
Posted By: Cromcrom Re: Mods for sale, with official support ? - 23/07/14 05:11 PM
Brainiac,
you obviously don't give a shit about the modding community. It would die with what you propose. Sure, some paid mods would be released, but why the heck would I share anything, say, with something like you, that you could use and make money with ? Yeah, right. No sharing. PERIOD.
Best community and mods come from free editors and communities.
As for paid mods with Larian approvals, like stand alone (dayz, wfas, and so on), of course yes, but there is no point in making one of your arrogant wall of text and insulting people, as always, about something obvious.
Larian will do whatever they please with some mods and modding team. You want them to sign a trade agreement with you ?
You post is so obvious it is useless. Just like you.
Posted By: blazed Re: Mods for sale, with official support ? - 23/07/14 06:29 PM
Hiver I agree with you, and also made a thread about the topic. To be honest I wish they just had a Royalty agreement like most big game engines out there. Both profits for Larian and content creators.

My recommendation as what I'm going to do is just forget Divinity Engine and focus on a Game Engine that does allow it, sure you need to set up a lot of things to make it work like Divinity but it can be done.

It seems people really bias on what TOOL you use to bring your vision and make a game, in my opinion it doesn't matter what pencil brand you use to draw a picture.

Theres no point making content for a community that DEMANDS us for free stuff. My time is valuable and if I make something in Divinity Engine for fun, I won't even share it, not with a crowd like this one.

Maybe take screenshots and show it and give info but no dl links.
Doesn't MOd Nexus (OR whatever is called) charge for some (gay) premium subscription ?
Larian could help moders by featuring their mods and moderns can set up some kind of donation system perhaps.
I would love to do make an epic campaign for divinity but since I don't really have the time so I would have to commission some people anyways (I am thinking of something big as the original campaign).
Posted By: Hiver Re: Mods for sale, with official support ? - 23/07/14 09:11 PM


Originally Posted by blazed
Hiver I agree with you, and also made a thread about the topic. To be honest I wish they just had a Royalty agreement like most big game engines out there. Both profits for Larian and content creators.

My recommendation as what I'm going to do is just forget Divinity Engine and focus on a Game Engine that does allow it, sure you need to set up a lot of things to make it work like Divinity but it can be done.
It seems people really bias on what TOOL you use to bring your vision and make a game, in my opinion it doesn't matter what pencil brand you use to draw a picture.

Theres no point making content for a community that DEMANDS us for free stuff. My time is valuable and if I make something in Divinity Engine for fun, I won't even share it, not with a crowd like this one.
Maybe take screenshots and show it and give info but no dl links.


I am primarily thinking about various early campaigns and stories that would be done in Divinity engine editor and therefore use its various assets and mechanics and effects.

These could be and should be set in the same setting, just telling a different story about different characters, told from a different angle - possibly.

Any other more radically changed and completely different games done in the engine could be a possibility, true - but that can be talked about later on. Or dealt with on case per case bases. Presuming the devs would think this is a good idea at all.

I am just trying to start this idea going. And i cant really say anything about any details now because this needs some feedback from the devs first.


Ive said from the start that any eventual theoretical earnings should be split between Larian studios, for several various big reasons - and the modders.
The easiest and fastest way to get mods to a big audience is of course Steam, and naturally it would all go through Larian and OS modding pages.

Which then of course necessitates that Larian devs have a final say on what could be possibly sold and exactly how and whatever else comes up.

Another angle is that any such modds need to be of certain quality - since they would actually be sold even for some nominal symbolic fees - and that demands that Larin studios has a curating and quality assurance control. (im just repeating myself here)


One thing to note is that there is no "community that demands free stuff" here. This is just two or three people who misunderstood this idea in the worst possible way - despite my suggestion directly addressing these very well known negative things that happened because of publishers greed in the past - and actually removing them or making them impossible to occur here.


We would all love if free and great mods would just fall from the skies all the time but we all know that doesnt happen. We all know dozens and dozens of mods that were abandoned and we should all be aware that without any real incentive - very few people will actually waste their time making something actually big and great for nothing else but a virtual handshake and some short lived internet praises.

Of course there will be people who will try to do it anyway.

And this suggestion doesnt do anything against that at all.


My first bigger mod, whose link is in my signature, "Tinker, Tailor, Hunter, a harder mod" which will aim to rebalance the game and create actually real harder game mode, plus adjust and add some smaller subquests to the game, especially Cysael area - will be free.

If i ever make it, that is.

I would never even dream of asking any money for just reworking the official game campaign like that.

But if i then try to make a whole new campaign, that is not using Cysael and other areas in the game, and create a whole new story (in Rivellon setting or not), which would include actually creating all parts of the game anew through the editor, including areas, locations, towns, characters, dialogues, quests and so on and so on... (for which i will need more people to work with me)...

I wouldnt mind knowing that maybe i and those people can get something more substantial for it.

and im guessing such an incentive would be very positive for other people too.



Originally Posted by RetroSpective
Doesn't MOd Nexus (OR whatever is called) charge for some (gay) premium subscription ?
Larian could help moders by featuring their mods and moderns can set up some kind of donation system perhaps.
I would love to do make an epic campaign for divinity but since I don't really have the time so I would have to commission some people anyways (I am thinking of something big as the original campaign).


Speaking of Mod Nexus... how many actually good, big, whole campaign mods there is for any game on it? New Vegas, Skyrim, whatever.

Two or three? One?

I guess a sort of a donation system could work too. A sort of "if you really liked this send a few euros to the modding team" kind of a deal. But that does, or can seem a bit like begging...

On the other hand, im thinking i personally would not mind paying a few euros for really good campaigns or whole new games as a way to promote and support that kind of community creation of further content.


Hell, i gave good money for kickstarter projects that were nothing more then ideas when they were suggested. Without any guarantees.

This isnt that different at all.


Posted By: blazed Re: Mods for sale, with official support ? - 24/07/14 03:41 AM
Originally Posted by Hiver
[quote=Bucket]
But if i then try to make a whole new campaign, that is not using Cysael and other areas in the game, and create a whole new story (in Rivellon setting or not), which would include actually creating all parts of the game anew through the editor, including areas, locations, towns, characters, dialogues, quests and so on and so on... (for which i will need more people to work with me)...

I wouldnt mind knowing that maybe i and those people can get something more substantial for it.


I pretty much had the same idea, I wanted to create my own world, storyline and characters using the Divinity Engine, its combat system and reuse some of its assets and models.

But gathering from my own thread, it seems the majority are against this as well, they don't want any paid mods, it痴 either ALL FREE or nothing comments on a constant basis.

I don't know about you, or any other modders out there, but yeah I'm out, I'm not going to waste my time for some virtual thanks by people who don't think I deserve anything more, I'm a freelance 3D artist so I'd rather just stick to pumping 3d models out for others and get paid for that instead.
Posted By: Tiaexz Re: Mods for sale, with official support ? - 24/07/14 04:43 AM
Originally Posted by blazed

I don't know about you, or any other modders out there, but yeah I'm out, I'm not going to waste my time for some virtual thanks by people who don't think I deserve anything more, I'm a freelance 3D artist so I'd rather just stick to pumping 3d models out for others and get paid for that instead.


[Linked Image]
Posted By: Rhidian Re: Mods for sale, with official support ? - 24/07/14 04:44 AM
The flames, they burn my eyes...
Posted By: Cromcrom Re: Mods for sale, with official support ? - 24/07/14 04:50 AM
Quote
If Larian said "Want to sell your mods on our marketplace? No problem, we take 10% of the sales and you get the rest" I can GUARANTEE YOU the result would be stunning and high quality mods.

And I guarantee you there would be no modding "community", only modding studios.
Want to make money ? Get a job. Modding should stay a hobby.
I know what I am talking about, I sank thousand of hours into this. I released not only my mod, but also my codes. http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/board,209.0.html
I am all for donation, but definitely against having to pay to get.
Posted By: Hiver Re: Mods for sale, with official support ? - 24/07/14 09:29 AM
Ive read that other thread. I think you may be overreacting blazed, as much as most of those posters there do too.
Of course there will be people who perceive this in a very negative light, which is to be expected since the general culture mindset about modding is as it is. Yet they overreact and consider this idea in a form that is actually not suggested and much worse then anyone would want.


Neurotoxin had some good remarks and mentioned several potential problematic issues and occurrences.

Cromcrom added some of the potential problems that could arise.

The thing is, i think those can be solved or prevented from happening down the line, if specific measures and basic rules are made to do so from the start.



First:
Modding should remain free. So, no... there is no need to even allow people to set prices for their smaller stuff, or to allow submitting smaller things for this kind of a deal with Larian.
I have been saying this from the start.

Thats one of the several big reasons why i suggested that Larian should have a final say and curating control.

If the deal is presented as such from the very start, IF it is clearly said that only big complete campaigns would be even considered for this, with no guarantees those would become supported for any kind of sales... it would prevent such a negative possibility from ever occurring.


Second:
There should be no arrangement or deal made about it before hand. So, as Cromcrom mentioned, the deal should be based on first proving you can make something by actually making it, and then if its considered good enough the mod could get considered for sales.


Third:
Any and all tricks, fixes, scripts, or any other "ways to do something" in the editor or engine any modder figures out would be freely released and available to the community at large - or else.

- Else - would be taking down the mod from Steam Workshop (for example) and Larian stopping any cooperation with those responsible, while the rest would be handled by community.

Keep in mind there is no hard rule or obligation for usual modders to release or reveal any of their tricks at all and that other modders should be capable to figure out any such fix, trick or script by themselves anyway. Yet it would be mandatory for anyone thinking about some kind of monetization.
I am sure most modders would share their stuff anyway, by themselves as they usually do, but this would enforce and ensure there is no sudden underhanded tricks.


***


Neurotoxin brought a few good points about how these things work when money gets in the picture from a psychological angle.

Clearly, people generally have a specific outlook about modding and mods they get.
And people do value getting free stuff to the point where they reciprocate and freely give money for stuff given freely to them.
Yet...thats hardly something you can count on.

On the other hand it is simply true that there is a lack of bigger, better quality mods i am talking about - precisely because of this "free" kind of mentality.

That isnt anything too strange.
Any idea or system has its positive and negative consequences.
The same goes for my idea and suggestion.
Which is why i specifically tried to anticipate those and suggest specific details that would prevent the worst consequences from ever occurring.


Actually, the potential problems Neurotoxin describes are harder to solve then anything Cromcrom mentioned or others had overblown into unrealistic extremes.

For one thing, i see no reason why the usual deals with donations and other smaller stuff could not work together with my suggestion. Any modder could decide if he wants to submit his mod for official support/deal of this kind (provided it is big and good enough)or not. And the smaller mods can just continue as they do now.

There is no real reason why any single way of doing this should be forced onto everyone.

You could think that leaving everything for donations might be good enough solution but... that brings us back to the very start of this issue. Its the reverse forest problem. You dont see individual trees that well in that case. And people voluntary donations are... iffy. You cant really count on those with any certainty.

Maybe the best solution for getting community created big mods to receive some recompense would be to bundle them all into a sort of community pack which would be sold through steam, with official support and quality assurance.

The price would be symbolic but due to large numbers of buyers available it could be worth it. Both for Larian and the modders and for the community, in the end.



Posted By: Pappus Re: Mods for sale, with official support ? - 24/07/14 11:16 AM
You guys actually forced me to create an account just to tell you guys how incredibly lacking your reading skills are.

How hard is it? OP stated, that Larian would be the only instance that actually could decide what is sold. So if some horse armor mod came along - guess what would happen? Nothing. 50 mods created out of greed? Most likely only a couple of them would actually be sold and guess what - there is absolutely nothing wrong with it.

If you make a script for the community and give it up for free and someone uses it - you somehow become jealous afterwards? As already explained - either state non-commercialization or deal with it.

Or how about this? You offer a script package to modders for 5$, which they can use in their vision of creating a mod that will turn in a profit. Helping them, helping your bills. There is nothing wrong with it.

You know if modders want to do it for free - nothing in this idea is stopping them.

This idea is for those mods, that might be created when $ might flow, which we would be missing out on otherwise.

I could go on with this list, but before you post at least try to grasp what the OP is saying.
Posted By: Rhidian Re: Mods for sale, with official support ? - 24/07/14 11:43 AM
The real problem with "Official Support", as I see it, is that it would add to their overhead costs/work which would take time away from doing other things.

Say Larian wanted to sell the Cow Simulator mod for money (hypothetical scenario). Where might people go to buy it? There would have to be space made somewhere on either their site or another site which they link to. They would have to make sure the payment system is set up correctly. When things go wrong in e Cow Simulator mod, they have to take time to help with Technical Assistance. All of these issues are relevant even if it's a third party mod they're endorsing.

And then there's the dark side/thorn of the Gaming business, Pirating. With the way the file structure is currently set up, it would be ridiculously simple for someone to take an endorsed mod and distribute it as a free version. Going after these would take legal costs/time that could again be used elsewhere. All of these costs would detract from any profit they could get from another person's work.
Posted By: Cromcrom Re: Mods for sale, with official support ? - 24/07/14 11:46 AM
@Pappus (hmmm, who might that be, same style as OP... Must be pure coincidence...)
That will be without me, my good sir. Not a big loss, I know hehe
There are hundreds of things we are missing out. The point is we don't know what we are missing, so it's not really an issue.
And you really think Larian will quality check even only the "biggest" mods out there (not a quality guarantee, btw) to clean it from bugs and make sure it is Larian compatible ?
Cant wait to see that.
And what is the point in posting something obvious "hey, if a mod is great, maybe larian will consider selling it in a partnership with the modders". WTF ? Need arrogant wall of texts for this ?

I suggest the OP creates a forum, it could dedicate to its grandnessitude, so it could select only people that agree with it, and not bother with other "simpletons", has it always takes a great love in calling people that don't agree with it.
And I just can't wait to see this grand mod of its, because I tell you, I am not the one that will give it the slightest help.
Keep coming the DLCs, "modders", just to see how the community will react.
Posted By: Gotcha! Re: Mods for sale, with official support ? - 24/07/14 12:21 PM
Make your mod, put it up for download, smack a Donate button under it.
I can guarantee you that people will donate if it's obvious a lot of time and resources went into your project. Combine that with Adfly and there you go. You can buy new sneakers in no time.

Discussing this further is pointless, thanks to an insurmountable difference in opinions. But I can guarantee you that even if Larian only had half a brain, they'd never allow mods to be sold for money and they sure wouldn't participate and earn money in/with a business like that. No self-respecting company would.
Posted By: Cromcrom Re: Mods for sale, with official support ? - 24/07/14 12:30 PM
+1
Posted By: Hiver Re: Mods for sale, with official support ? - 24/07/14 04:45 PM
Originally Posted by Pappus
You guys actually forced me to create an account just to tell you guys how incredibly lacking your reading skills are.

How hard is it? OP stated, that Larian would be the only instance that actually could decide what is sold. So if some horse armor mod came along - guess what would happen? Nothing. 50 mods created out of greed? Most likely only a couple of them would actually be sold and guess what - there is absolutely nothing wrong with it.

If you make a script for the community and give it up for free and someone uses it - you somehow become jealous afterwards? As already explained - either state non-commercialization or deal with it.

Or how about this? You offer a script package to modders for 5$, which they can use in their vision of creating a mod that will turn in a profit. Helping them, helping your bills. There is nothing wrong with it.

You know if modders want to do it for free - nothing in this idea is stopping them.
This idea is for those mods, that might be created when $ might flow, which we would be missing out on otherwise.

I could go on with this list, but before you post at least try to grasp what the OP is saying.


Well thanx. But these few special cases actually cant, because it would ruin their dislike about something they invented and misunderstand.
Its a cancerous internet retard loop.


I only considered cromcrom few points as a way to explain some specifics better but, as you see he is a bloody moron who just intentionally doesnt want to understand anything and just intentionally keeps spewing some kind of halfbrained insults, some laughable strawmans and attempts at kiddy ad hominems, which is his schtick on these forums since i started posting here and long before that.

He usually spends his time screeching about how Larian devs are out to cheat everyone and how they dont know how to make games and... some such nonsense.

And then he would like to make it look as if he is called a simpleton just because he disagrees with something... tsk, tsk, tsk... such fantasies. Cromcrom, In your case a simpleton would be a compliment serving as a pitty excuse but i dont feel like awarding you with that.


Gotcha... are you even able to comprehend that your directions on what i should do or dont are just laughable? I mean, do you seriously go around believing that you will just order someone over the internets, let alone me ... to do something and that it will be seriously considered?

ffs... hahaha

Also, since you think "discussing this" is pointless then just stop spamming your nonsensical declarations and orders and just go do something else. Right? Not that you were actually discussing anything from the start, instead just splurging your ignorant opinions and proclamations as if anyone will actually consider those as relevant to anything.





now,...


Originally Posted by Rhidian
The real problem with "Official Support", as I see it, is that it would add to their overhead costs/work which would take time away from doing other things.


How do you figure that? Isnt this kind of a thing actually their work anyway, considering their support for the editor and the game? Wouldnt this benefit them too? No reason why community shouldn't be included at some stages of it either.


Quote

Say Larian wanted to sell the Cow Simulator mod for money (hypothetical scenario).

smile Such a nice hypothetical example youve chosen. Bravo. That was really sly and stealthy.


Quote

Where might people go to buy it? There would have to be space made somewhere on either their site or another site which they link to. They would have to make sure the payment system is set up correctly. When things go wrong in e Cow Simulator mod, they have to take time to help with Technical Assistance. All of these issues are relevant even if it's a third party mod they're endorsing.

Steam?

Ever heard of it? Man its awesome, Its this strange company Valve, you know... they had some kind of a game or two long ago and...

Look, they actually would not need to help with technical assistance or buggs anymore then what they are doing for the editor anyway.

It would be responsibility of mod creators to fix the specific mod buggs (which would be discovered best by giving the mod for playtesting to community) and provide any assistance to any eventual players. In fact, most of these kinds of efforts would be down to the community. Not Larian studios.

You know why?

Because it is better.


Quote
And then there's the dark side/thorn of the Gaming business, Pirating.

oh, please... ffs... Non sequitur, adhoc fallacy and slippery slope all in one. Probably a few more.

If that had any relevance in reality then nobody would ever publish any game.

Posted By: Rhidian Re: Mods for sale, with official support ? - 24/07/14 05:11 PM
Steam isn't the end-all-be-all for digital distribution; Divinity Original Sin was released on GOG as well. Patch fixes have been going to both places.

By officially supporting a mod, Larian Studios' reputation would be affected by how well such a mod does. Especially if they go as far as providing the Steam/GOG DLC setup and streamline whatever patch processes those entail.
Posted By: Hiver Re: Mods for sale, with official support ? - 24/07/14 05:24 PM
Nobody claimed Steam is ... the end-all-be-all for digital distribution; - so its pretty pointless trying to argue against that.

Steam is just currently the easiest option to achieve all the things you mentioned with the least hassle.

You know that as well as i or anyone else does, so its quite pointless to pretend otherwise.

I guess GoG presumably wants to do something similar but until they set it up and make it work there is no need to talk about it.

Quote
Patch fixes have been going to both places.

errm... so?

Quote
By officially supporting a mod, Larian Studios' reputation would be affected by how well such a mod does.


In what exact way would their reputation be affected? And why specifically according to "how well the mod does"?

Do you mean financially or some other way?

Is this the spot where you go into some tirade how some mod will be so terrible (in who knows what ways) and then it would "ruin" Larian studios reputation... because nobody on this planet would consider that a mod, despite it clearly being a mod developed by community?

We are still talking about huge, seriously done whole campaigns and new stories and stuff, that Larian would have an executive and absolute power over, right?


Quote
Especially if they go as far as providing the Steam/GOG DLC setup and streamline whatever patch processes those entail.

How is that a problem?
Posted By: Rhidian Re: Mods for sale, with official support ? - 24/07/14 05:31 PM
Originally Posted by Hiver

We are still talking about huge, seriously done whole campaigns and new stories and stuff, that Larian would have an executive and absolute power over, right?


...

Originally Posted by Hiver

It would be responsibility of mod creators to fix the specific mod buggs (which would be discovered best by giving the mod for playtesting to community) and provide any assistance to any eventual players. In fact, most of these kinds of efforts would be down to the community. Not Larian studios.


Control over the distribution of a mod and/or its patches costs time/effort. Time/effort for companies costs money. If the money made from supporting/selling a well done campaign mod made by a third party is worth it for Larian, then not much else needs to be said about that.
Posted By: Hiver Re: Mods for sale, with official support ? - 24/07/14 05:38 PM
Exactly.

And Steam lowers all such costs the most, currently. And partially enforces anti-piracy measures too.
Larian has to work with Steam devs to setup up the usual modds distribution anyway - and this will be just an extension of it.

Which, taken altogether, is why i suggested my idea about it all as it is in the Op and other subsequent posts.

Posted By: Theodore Re: Mods for sale, with official support ? - 24/07/14 05:57 PM
TF2 and DotA2 both monetarily compensate content creators for their time and effort, and as a result get a constant stream of high quality submissions. Players that are worth caring about from a business perspective are more than willing to pay a fair price for new content, if a modder or team of modders want to produce this content and charge for it the more power to them.

However, Larian as a company has to provide appropriate support for this, including profit share and methods of resolution for the issues that will certainly arise. If Larian doesn't want to do that, which is understandable because despite it most likely being profitable for them and an encouragement to modding it's a lot of backend work and things that are pulling them away from their core business, then there isn't much choice but to rely on a donation system.

It's nice to see modders getting compensated for their time and effort, and implementing a system that simplifies the process would be great for spurring on larger, more interesting mods which are what people would realistically be likely to spend money on.

Every single extensive modding community I've seen runs into terrible drama issues, a good deal of it stemming from modders getting burned out after spending a ridiculous amount of time creating content for no compensation and having users become toxic. Modders particularly dislike having their content used in other mods without credit, because credit and the warm fuzzy feeling of accolades is the only thing they usually get for their work. This sort of situation where people feel highly possessive of their work, have no means to profit off of it, and have to deal with a super unpleasant userbase makes it a wonder anybody bothers publicly releasing mods at all. It's no surprise a lot of modders eventually have a meltdown and remove all their content from sites, this sort of stuff could drive anybody crazy.

Just the idea of people being compensated for their time and wanting to know if Larian would provide the means for it seems to absurdly upset some people here, which is an early indicator of the same unpleasant elements you'll find in most modding scenes. The tools aren't even in a state to realistically produce an entirely new scenario, but you're somehow killing the community by asking Larian's stance on it.

It's Larian's engine, their tools, their decision on what's acceptable for created content using them. They should definitely have a stance sooner rather than later though so people can decide if the environment is worth their time.
Posted By: blazed Re: Mods for sale, with official support ? - 24/07/14 05:59 PM
Spot on with cromcrom, I blocked the twat yesterday... His logic is that if you ever learnt anything from a free source such a forum post or YouTube video you should no longer charge for your services because someone gave you something for free.

Complete lunatic with garbage logic.
Posted By: Gotcha! Re: Mods for sale, with official support ? - 24/07/14 06:22 PM
Originally Posted by Hiver
Gotcha... are you even able to comprehend that your directions on what i should do or dont are just laughable? I mean, do you seriously go around believing that you will just order someone over the internets, let alone me ... to do something and that it will be seriously considered?


Point out to me where I am telling you what to do? What would I care if you continue this crusade?
I just said that it's pointless to discuss this further, both due to people's unchangeable opinions and Larian's lack of feedback. I did not tell you to stop posting here, did I? Would be quite silly if I did, wouldn't it? I am not the one with the ego here, believe it or not.

Calling people moronic, simple and ignorant for no apparent reason?
Opinions are like arseholes. All people have them and they all stink. People will have opinions, even when you don't ask for their opinions. This goes double on forums. It's a much better idea to learn to live with that fact than to start calling people names for no reason. Really immature.
Posted By: blazed Re: Mods for sale, with official support ? - 24/07/14 06:35 PM
Originally Posted by Gotcha!
Originally Posted by Hiver
Gotcha... are you even able to comprehend that your directions on what i should do or dont are just laughable? I mean, do you seriously go around believing that you will just order someone over the internets, let alone me ... to do something and that it will be seriously considered?


Point out to me where I am telling you what to do? What would I care if you continue this crusade?
I just said that it's pointless to discuss this further, both due to people's unchangeable opinions and Larian's lack of feedback. I did not tell you to stop posting here, did I? Would be quite silly if I did, wouldn't it? I am not the one with the ego here, believe it or not.

Calling people moronic, simple and ignorant for no apparent reason?
Opinions are like arseholes. All people have them and they all stink. People will have opinions, even when you don't ask for their opinions. This goes double on forums. It's a much better idea to learn to live with that fact than to start calling people names for no reason. Really immature.


Yeah but in the real world if someone was trying to sell something that you thought was wrong I don't think you would open your gob, for example i see fake DVD sellers and drug dealers yet I don't see the general public go up to them and express their shitty negative opinions, I guess it because the nerds know that's how jaws get broken but everyone on the internet has Balls of steel!
Posted By: Cromcrom Re: Mods for sale, with official support ? - 24/07/14 06:53 PM
Originally Posted by brainiac
I only considered cromcrom few points as a way to explain some specifics better but, as you see he is a bloody moron who just intentionally doesnt want to understand anything and just intentionally keeps spewing some kind of halfbrained insults, some laughable strawmans and attempts at kiddy ad hominems, which is his schtick on these forums since i started posting here and long before that.

I can't wait to see what your little society(brainiac, blazed, and obviously theodore) is going to come up with, beside insults and arrogant wall of texts.
Actually, I don't really give a shit about you sellers. I have been giving, sharing mods, advices, codes, for a long time, even lost money keeping servers running so people could play on my NWN2 PW, and will keep doing so, and try to do the same thing for DOS.
And if I see peole selling mods, I will stop, because this is not my conception of a modding community. Simple as that. Not a big deal, really.
Originally Posted by 3D artist
I guess it because the nerds know that's how jaws get broken but everyone on the internet has Balls of steel!

lol...

Posted By: Gotcha! Re: Mods for sale, with official support ? - 24/07/14 07:00 PM
Originally Posted by blazed
Yeah but in the real world if someone was trying to sell something that you thought was wrong I don't think you would open your gob...


I've stood up to people thrice my size, because of their attitude towards others and/or me. Sure, some day I might be on the end of a huge fist, but so far I'm doing great. And even if I get a hit, I'm made of flesh and bones, not wet paper. I'll get over it.
Anyway, my point being: Someone who visits forums isn't automatically a coward; you shouldn't make assumptions about people you don't know. It can bite you in the arse one day.
Posted By: blazed Re: Mods for sale, with official support ? - 24/07/14 07:15 PM
Originally Posted by Gotcha!
Originally Posted by blazed
Yeah but in the real world if someone was trying to sell something that you thought was wrong I don't think you would open your gob...


I've stood up to people thrice my size, because of their attitude towards others and/or me. Sure, some day I might be on the end of a huge fist, but so far I'm doing great. And even if I get a hit, I'm made of flesh and bones, not wet paper. I'll get over it.
Anyway, my point being: Someone who visits forums isn't automatically a coward; you shouldn't make assumptions about people you don't know. It can bite you in the arse one day.


Get a cam or recorder record yourself and say you are Gotcha! from the forums, go around your local area where there is trouble and approach someone doing something dodgy and express your opinion about what they are doing is wrong etc.

Post it on youtube and send me a link.

Words are cheap mate, no need for the BS. With those claims you have everything to prove, taking on people thrice your size!
Posted By: Cromcrom Re: Mods for sale, with official support ? - 24/07/14 07:18 PM
Originally Posted by 3D artist
His logic is that if you ever learnt anything from a free source such a forum post or YouTube video you should no longer charge for your services because someone gave you something for free.

Actually, what I said is that in YOUR world, with YOUR logic, you would have paid for stuff you mention and on the other hand got free from nice sharing people. But that was stinging, so you prefer to call it "garbage logic" and insult me. Talk about courage hehe
Posted By: Gotcha! Re: Mods for sale, with official support ? - 24/07/14 07:29 PM
Originally Posted by blazed
Get a cam or recorder record yourself and say you are Gotcha! from the forums, go around your local area where there is trouble and approach someone doing something dodgy and express your opinion about what they are doing is wrong etc.

Post it on youtube and send me a link.

Words are cheap mate, no need for the BS. With those claims you have everything to prove, taking on people thrice your size!


Firstly, you act it like it's an enormous achievement standing up to someone who's bigger than you. Really, it's not. When you know you're in the right, you just go for it.
Don't be a fool. No one needs to proof anything to you and no one is going to create videos for you. Get yourself a reality check and grow up.

Sidenote: I am dropping this subject, because it's completely off-topic.
Posted By: blazed Re: Mods for sale, with official support ? - 24/07/14 08:07 PM
Originally Posted by Gotcha!
Originally Posted by blazed
Get a cam or recorder record yourself and say you are Gotcha! from the forums, go around your local area where there is trouble and approach someone doing something dodgy and express your opinion about what they are doing is wrong etc.

Post it on youtube and send me a link.

Words are cheap mate, no need for the BS. With those claims you have everything to prove, taking on people thrice your size!


Firstly, you act it like it's an enormous achievement standing up to someone who's bigger than you. Really, it's not. When you know you're in the right, you just go for it.
Don't be a fool. No one needs to proof anything to you and no one is going to create videos for you. Get yourself a reality check and grow up.

Sidenote: I am dropping this subject, because it's completely off-topic.


can talk the talk but can't walk the walk, Predictable and just as I thought, Calling BS, until proof, but walk away like you would do in real life. You can't stand up to jack s--t.

Heres the thing I'm 6.2 feet and 100kg with 2 years boxing training, but no I don't start fights, and no I don't approach people doing wrong things because from experience I know its not worth it. (I just call the police if required)

but I don't really do it online either 95% my posts on threads are either My threads and responses to my quotes.

I don't have an urge to go onto someone else's thread and start saying negative things about them because they asked a question I didn't like.
Posted By: blazed Re: Mods for sale, with official support ? - 24/07/14 08:17 PM
Hiver I'm sorry for diverting your thread, I will stop now.
Posted By: Cromcrom Re: Mods for sale, with official support ? - 24/07/14 08:22 PM
Originally Posted by Karate Kid
Heres the thing I'm 6.2 feet and 100kg with 2 years boxing training,

Thou shallst be enceforth known as: Karate Kid.
I can hardly believe you just wrote something that stupid about yourself.
Posted By: Bucket Re: Mods for sale, with official support ? - 24/07/14 08:25 PM
Wish I didn't subscribed to this thread.
Hiver completely missed the irony in my last post. Talk about being a simpleton?
I haven't seen some solid, well thought-out arguments coming from the 'pro' side in this thread.
I'm not going to spend energy in trying to educate these fools.
Posted By: blazed Re: Mods for sale, with official support ? - 24/07/14 08:29 PM
Cromcrom, I see you are always trying to reply under my posts but all I see is *** You are ignoring this user ***, just saying you should maybe stop lol....
Posted By: Cromcrom Re: Mods for sale, with official support ? - 24/07/14 08:46 PM
Not because you can't read my posts, mean others can't.
I ignore nobody, because I have the "guts" to see what they have to say, even if I utterly disagree, and sometimes get insulted by people like you or brainiac. I am all for sharing, be it mods, opinions or blows. Refusing to debate is not a quality, in my view.
Posted By: Pappus Re: Mods for sale, with official support ? - 24/07/14 09:10 PM
You guys are right, that would increase the costs for larian, that is what the pricetag is for in the first place!?

You know to cover (+bonus) these costs...

Next on the agenda would be how larians reputation is linked to the mod, which is partially true, but it sounds so negative... You wouldn't forget the possibility, that the mod is great and people are happily paying 5$ to buy it? That is a link too, but we shall call it opportunity.

Oh and considering my style. There is a distinct difference. I came into this thread searching a discussion, what I found wasted my time debating stuff, that OP clearly made unlikely or outright impossible. So yeah, thanks for wasting my time.
Posted By: Gotcha! Re: Mods for sale, with official support ? - 24/07/14 10:41 PM
Originally Posted by blazed
can talk the talk but can't walk the walk, Predictable and just as I thought, Calling BS, until proof, but walk away like you would do in real life. You can't stand up to jack s--t.

Heres the thing I'm 6.2 feet and 100kg with 2 years boxing training, but no I don't start fights, and no I don't approach people doing wrong things because from experience I know its not worth it. (I just call the police if required)

but I don't really do it online either 95% my posts on threads are either My threads and responses to my quotes.

I don't have an urge to go onto someone else's thread and start saying negative things about them because they asked a question I didn't like.


Sure, don't believe anyone would stand up to injustice being done, but expect others to believe you're some tough guy boxer.
This whole post made me laugh. Time to grow up. You aren't fooling anyone with your obvious immature behaviour projected through your insulting troll posts.

Anyway, this is pointless. I wish Hiver and blazed all the best during their trolling excursions. up
Seeing how there's not a moderator around to do something about it, I guess you have carte blanche to behave like a dick. Good luck with that. welcome
Posted By: blazed Re: Mods for sale, with official support ? - 24/07/14 11:16 PM
Originally Posted by Gotcha!
Originally Posted by blazed
can talk the talk but can't walk the walk, Predictable and just as I thought, Calling BS, until proof, but walk away like you would do in real life. You can't stand up to jack s--t.

Heres the thing I'm 6.2 feet and 100kg with 2 years boxing training, but no I don't start fights, and no I don't approach people doing wrong things because from experience I know its not worth it. (I just call the police if required)

but I don't really do it online either 95% my posts on threads are either My threads and responses to my quotes.

I don't have an urge to go onto someone else's thread and start saying negative things about them because they asked a question I didn't like.


Sure, don't believe anyone would stand up to injustice being done, but expect others to believe you're some tough guy boxer.
This whole post made me laugh. Time to grow up. You aren't fooling anyone with your obvious immature behaviour projected through your insulting troll posts.

Anyway, this is pointless. I wish Hiver and blazed all the best during their trolling excursions. up
Seeing how there's not a moderator around to do something about it, I guess you have carte blanche to behave like a dick. Good luck with that. welcome


Holy shit I'm a liar now for saying I have boxing experience under my belt hahaha...

I didn't say I'm a tough guy I actually said I avoid fights at all costs... what on earth are you talking about? What injustice are you talking about? Yeah if I see a group of men beating the shit out of some poor soul, theres no way I'm getting involved, I'm going to walk away and call the cops ASAP, which is what's actually recommended by the goverment/cops anyway.

When I get into a flight or fight situation I flight until there is no place to run and fight. It was afterall the first lessons in my taekwondo lessons when I was a kid... but yeah thats a lie too.

But yeah... bye!
Posted By: Hiver Re: Mods for sale, with official support ? - 24/07/14 11:55 PM
Originally Posted by Theodore
TF2 and DotA2 both monetarily compensate content creators for their time and effort, and as a result get a constant stream of high quality submissions. Players that are worth caring about from a business perspective are more than willing to pay a fair price for new content, if a modder or team of modders want to produce this content and charge for it the more power to them.

However, Larian as a company has to provide appropriate support for this, including profit share and methods of resolution for the issues that will certainly arise. If Larian doesn't want to do that, which is understandable because despite it most likely being profitable for them and an encouragement to modding it's a lot of backend work and things that are pulling them away from their core business, then there isn't much choice but to rely on a donation system.

It's nice to see modders getting compensated for their time and effort, and implementing a system that simplifies the process would be great for spurring on larger, more interesting mods which are what people would realistically be likely to spend money on.

Every single extensive modding community I've seen runs into terrible drama issues, a good deal of it stemming from modders getting burned out after spending a ridiculous amount of time creating content for no compensation and having users become toxic. Modders particularly dislike having their content used in other mods without credit, because credit and the warm fuzzy feeling of accolades is the only thing they usually get for their work. This sort of situation where people feel highly possessive of their work, have no means to profit off of it, and have to deal with a super unpleasant userbase makes it a wonder anybody bothers publicly releasing mods at all. It's no surprise a lot of modders eventually have a meltdown and remove all their content from sites, this sort of stuff could drive anybody crazy.

Just the idea of people being compensated for their time and wanting to know if Larian would provide the means for it seems to absurdly upset some people here, which is an early indicator of the same unpleasant elements you'll find in most modding scenes. The tools aren't even in a state to realistically produce an entirely new scenario, but you're somehow killing the community by asking Larian's stance on it.

It's Larian's engine, their tools, their decision on what's acceptable for created content using them. They should definitely have a stance sooner rather than later though so people can decide if the environment is worth their time.


Nicely spoken and explained. All true.

Would be nice to get some feedback on this from the devs as soon as possible.

Posted By: Tiaexz Re: Mods for sale, with official support ? - 25/07/14 12:29 AM
I have to be honest, I get paid far more per hour than what I would earn doing mods and investing time in paid-for-content. There is also the responsibility with free-mods is that if I really grow tired of it, I would happily leave my work in the hands of the community, to take and use as they wish. With paid-content, I would be obligation in doing the work even though the benefits of doing such would not be worth it.

TF and Dota are rather bad examples as they are pretty much 'horse-armour' mods. Selling recoloured skins for money, or some random hat. They are also exceptions to the rule because they are cult purchases.

As much as I enjoyed Divinity: Original Sin, it is no where in the same league in terms of popularity and activity as DotA or TF, and it appeals to an audience which is less likely to make impulse buys.

I do modding simply because I am interested in doing it and the reward for doing it is the satisfaction received from being able to do something with your own hands that you are proud of, and seeing others enjoy what you did.

Maybe I am simply too altruistic or not selfish enough to consider selling work. After all, companies do sell 'additional unit skins' and 'music pack' dlc for a couple of dollars, so why couldn't a talented individual simply do the same as them?

There are benefits for and against, but seeing statements from people suggesting: "I would mod with my elite 3D art skills but I want $5 for the model, lol freecontent n00bs gtfo" is really appalling.


Posted By: Hiver Re: Mods for sale, with official support ? - 25/07/14 01:28 AM
Nobody wants to stop you from doing whatever you want.
Wnat to make some free mods?

Well just do so.

Want to make something bigger, more serious that could maybe get accepted for some kind of actual sale - but then you want to give up halfway through and just leave it all to the community?

Just do so.

Who ever said that anyone would force you to do something different?

You would not be in any kind of "paying league" just because you would declare that you are making a big mod. Didnt you read what i have been repeating over and over?

Is it just easier to not read and invent whatever you fancy?

I repeatedly stated that what im suggesting is about whole new campaigns and such similar big conversions and the like, not any kind of hats, skins or other various smaller mods.

I am repeating that constantly in this thread so... what exactly is the point of bringing that up - again?

Quote
There are benefits for and against, but seeing statements from people suggesting: "I would mod with my elite 3D art skills but I want $5 for the model, lol freecontent n00bs gtfo" is really appalling.

Who exactly had said that? And where?

I havent seen it in this thread or the other one so... maybe you could point me to it.
Posted By: Raze Re: Mods for sale, with official support ? - 25/07/14 01:48 AM
Originally Posted by Cromcrom
Quote
If Larian said "Want to sell your mods on our marketplace? No problem, we take 10% of the sales and you get the rest" I can GUARANTEE YOU the result would be stunning and high quality mods.

And I guarantee you there would be no modding "community", only modding studios.

If anyone could guarantee anything, Larian would already have a policy in place regarding commercialization of mods. There are no guarantees, and there are no absolute facts in this regard. If you want to back up your opinions with examples of other games, etc, then do so.

Given the complaints about this topic, there may be a few deletions as I read through the rest of it...

Well that was kind of pointless. For those who complained:
- Some of posts did go off topic, but pretty much everything worth saying on topic was said before then, and the topic isn't completely derailed. It may or may not return to actual debate on the topic.
- The juvenile insults and condescending attitudes in some posts did not rise to a level requiring moderation.
Posted By: blazed Re: Mods for sale, with official support ? - 25/07/14 01:48 AM
Originally Posted by Hiver
Nobody wants to stop you from doing whatever you want.
Quote
There are benefits for and against, but seeing statements from people suggesting: "I would mod with my elite 3D art skills but I want $5 for the model, lol freecontent n00bs gtfo" is really appalling.

Who exactly had said that? And where?

I havent seen it in this thread or the other one so... maybe you could point me to it.


I think he's talking about the time I said charging people something like $5 for a whole new campaign, *sigh* I'm really bored of this now, if trolls are just going to change my wording and make up lies...

The quicker Larian makes some statement on the future use of their Divinity Engine the quicker I can leave this forum, or the quicker I can laugh at these people and take my Divinity Modding more seriously.
Posted By: Hickups Re: Mods for sale, with official support ? - 25/07/14 01:52 AM
I dont care which any side anyone comes down on this i myself find the idea of paying upfront for mods distasteful asking for optional donations is one thing but you have many shifty people who make a donation a requirement for any and all content, also ill point out all legal precedence i can think of in regards to this issue Bethesda, Maxis, Valve, EA, Blizzard has pretty much set it in stone that you "DO NOT" allow people to charge for fan made mods end of story. If Larian wants to break with tradition and face the legal headaches tied to this issue it is up to them even games that once were mods had to then buy a license to make their games and the mods that spurred the creation of that game still exists Free of charge its just the cleanest most legal way to do it so if you feel its somehow morally or ethically fine that's your own business legally its been established as bad practice thank you.
Posted By: blazed Re: Mods for sale, with official support ? - 25/07/14 02:08 AM
Originally Posted by Hickups
I dont care which any side anyone comes down on this i myself find the idea of paying upfront for mods distasteful asking for optional donations is one thing but you have many shifty people who make a donation a requirement for any and all content, also ill point out all legal precedence i can think of in regards to this issue Bethesda, Maxis, Valve, EA, Blizzard has pretty much set it in stone that you "DO NOT" allow people to charge for fan made mods end of story. If Larian wants to break with tradition and face the legal headaches tied to this issue it is up to them even games that once were mods had to then buy a license to make their games and the mods that spurred the creation of that game still exists Free of charge its just the cleanest most legal way to do it so if you feel its somehow morally or ethically fine that's your own business legally its been established as bad practice thank you.


You know they could just take the whole engine, rename it, change it up a little, maybe add some documentation to it, remove some art that identifies it as divinity keeping more of the landscape and vague props. Then release it as a Standalone Engine that may not even Require Divinity Original: Sin.

It will basically be another Game Engine in the market to compete with other engines just much more tailor to RPG games with turn base combat etc.
Posted By: Hiver Re: Mods for sale, with official support ? - 25/07/14 02:14 AM
No Hickups, thank you. For not reading and for just doing your part while declaring you dont care which any side anyone comes down on this.

We didnt have the idea of "paying upfront for mods" yet. I have to say its quite a spectacular notion.

btw, what some other companies decided in the past is not a legal precedence but their own personal take on the situation and im sure if you would look those companies over a bit better you would find many interesting things regarding mods.

Or maybe realize Larian studios does not have to behave like some other companies. And that times are changing, lately.

You may also take a look at Epic and the new Unreal Tournament.


-

Blazed, could i ask you not to continue with those exchanges? Lets try to stick to something more useful here?

Posted By: Hickups Re: Mods for sale, with official support ? - 25/07/14 03:05 AM
As i pointed out in my post if larian wants to break with the already established notion that is entirely up to them you may have skipped over me already saying that.

Thus far all companies have upheld this as a bad practice i really don't care the arguments for or against i know which side of the fence im on and every-time this has been brought up it has been smacked down by devs.

as for the argument devs put forward it is a legal nightmare for them and they all avoid it some have specialized modding rules such as allowing back port form older games but not allowing outside content etc but but as far as it goes in terms of charging for them its always been the same response NO!!! NO!!! NO!! NO!!.

It comes up in every modding community some one sees a easy to use modding tool that essentially would allow you to manufacture a game overnight (obviously this is a exaggeration for effect i realize a good mod would not be done this quickly) and seeing this they want to make money off it i understand the path of least resistance motivation behind it but i myself have never liked it and for whatever their motivations developers have never liked it either and it seems from previous posts Larian has sort of pointed out they dont like this practice either thank god.

The route taken by epic is not new it has been done in Second life as-well and also highly unpopular i might add and will most likely be unpopular in UT. and that is still speculation the game isnt even near finished yet the times are not changing this is old rehashed attempts of a bad business model.

EDIT: also id like to point out something that the content for the new unreal tournament game will be created using the UT ENGINE 4 that costs a subscription fee so you will still be paying to use the engine.
Posted By: Cromcrom Re: Mods for sale, with official support ? - 25/07/14 05:36 AM
Originally Posted by Raze
Originally Posted by Cromcrom
Quote
If Larian said "Want to sell your mods on our marketplace? No problem, we take 10% of the sales and you get the rest" I can GUARANTEE YOU the result would be stunning and high quality mods.

And I guarantee you there would be no modding "community", only modding studios.

If anyone could guarantee anything, Larian would already have a policy in place regarding commercialization of mods. There are no guarantees, and there are no absolute facts in this regard. If you want to back up your opinions with examples of other games, etc, then do so.

Given the complaints about this topic, there may be a few deletions as I read through the rest of it...

Well that was kind of pointless. For those who complained:
- Some of posts did go off topic, but pretty much everything worth saying on topic was said before then, and the topic isn't completely derailed. It may or may not return to actual debate on the topic.
- The juvenile insults and condescending attitudes in some posts did not rise to a level requiring moderation.

Yes, "bloody moron", "twat", "Complete lunatic with garbage logic", you are right, thank you.
Posted By: Hiver Re: Mods for sale, with official support ? - 25/07/14 08:45 AM
You started it cromcrom, as usual.

Dont cry about it now. If you want people to reply to you in a normal way learn to address others in a non insulting ways and without various invented strawmans and other assorted fallacies.

Going a bit back;

Originally Posted by Cromcrom
Let's say I work for hours, and come up we a pretty nice script, I share for free.
You take it and use it in the mod you sell.
Wtf ?
Are you gonna pay me for my generously shared hard work ? Are you the only one to take advantage of it? Why would I share anything if you make money out of it and I am the fool ?


Theoretically speaking: I would not pay you anything for that script you shared for free. And i will explain why exactly. What i would do is give you credit for it and i would share freely all my scripts and other tricks i discovered or made - for you to use as you want, provided you give me credit for them.

Now, if you can use any of those to create and construct a big quality campaign with all content that requires and then apply for Larian judgement on whether it could be sold - pass it - and then have players happy with it and deemed worthy of a few euros based on its internal quality - then you wouldnt need to pay me anything either.

Because sharing is caring.

And then we would be equalized.

A script, a hack, a trick or whatever any modder comes up with - is just a tool.
You dont sell those tools, because by themselves they are almost worthless in this sense.

You would sell your whole new campaign. Its story, gameplay, characters, dialogues, environments and quests - as a whole.

Because thats the only thing you actually created, the only thing that is actually yours.

The rest belongs to Larian studios.



Quote
So, this might be the death of sharing.
Just take Mount and blade.
Only the most prestigious mods got sold. EVERYTHING else is free, the community being very dedicated about that. Result is a very old game that still has masses of followers, because of the great spirit and mods behind them.

errm... ffs... sigh...

welcome

Quote

NWN2 toolset was free, mods were free, the community is still strong behind it.

Oh yes, NWN2 whole new games or campaigns. We are practically drowning in them and there are people still playing that, sure. All three of them. Strong. Right - e - o.

Smash hit that NWN2 was. Or should i say slam dunk.


Posted By: Cromcrom Re: Mods for sale, with official support ? - 25/07/14 09:14 AM
Originally Posted by brainiac
errm... ffs... sigh...

Yes ? Something you don't understand ?

Originally Posted by brainiac

Dont cry about it now. If you want people to reply to you in a normal way learn to address others in a non insulting ways and without various invented strawmans and other assorted fallacies.

Coming from you... Nice "humor" you've got here. But makes me laugh, tx.

Originally Posted by brainiac
I would not pay you anything for that script you shared for free. And i will explain why exactly. What i would do is give you credit for it and i would share freely all my scripts and other tricks i discovered or made - for you to use as you want, provided you give me credit for them.
I agree, this is what a modding community is about.

Originally Posted by brainiac
Because sharing is caring.
Tell me, what have you shared so far, beside insults and arrogant wall of texts ? Easy words. Can't wait to see the major mods you have created and shared. I might get a nice surprise, tho hehe Bring the links.
I share to equally caring and sharing community. Selling is not about sharing and caring, it's about dealing.

All theory. Cant wait to see how all this would turn out. Not talking about DLCs or Stand alone campaigns, of course, but about selling mods.
Posted By: Hiver Re: Mods for sale, with official support ? - 25/07/14 09:46 AM

Anyway, lets see if i can make a list to present how this would go - theoretically.


1. Larian studios make official rules about it.



2. Only whole new campaigns, standalones or total conversions would be considered for this kind of process.

Of course, Larian devs can and should specify this further, in specific details and requirements.

- Some of these mods can be sold as standalones, some as parts of a big community packs with many mods inside. Whatever would work best.



3. Only the best of the best would actually get accepted, by Larian devs, with possible partial addition of community voting.

- Devs have the final say regardless of community voting.


4. The process goes something like this:

A modder or modding team starts working on their big mod.

- When they have something playable they start releasing it to the community for testing and comments, bug and other quality assurance, maybe as sort of beta versions of their final creation.

- When they are ready and decide to go for it, they submit the mod to Larian devs for judgement.

- Larian takes in account community comments about it and then decides.



5. Any tools, scripts, hacks, tricks, or whatever else the mod contains must be shared freely.


- If the mod is non commercial this falls under usual personal rules of behavior.

- If the mod gets accepted and judged worthy by Larian studios, sharing all such tools, tricks and info becomes mandatory. Or else.

All your scripts, hacks, tools and info belongs to Larian studios.


6. The only thing that is truly yours is the content you created for such a mod. Its story, gameplay, setting, lore, characters and their dialogues - and ultimately how it plays - the gestalt of the whole.


Everything else is just you tinkering with Larian property and their creation. Which they let you to do, being nice guys as they are.



7. Since you are creating this creation of yours on their engine, the content you create, the gestalt of your game/mod is only theoretically "yours".


Its just a nice thing to say. Not anything actually legally relevant.

Larian studios is sharing their engine editor with you - therefore you will share back all you make and create with it.

Any eventual money too. Under rules and terms decided by Larian studios.



8. Dont like it? Dont apply for it.


Want to make such a mod and share it freely? Do so.



Posted By: Cromcrom Re: Mods for sale, with official support ? - 25/07/14 09:53 AM
OMG lol brainiac:
"If a modding team makes an amazing mod, maybe Larian would consider endorsing it, and selling it, and sharing the profit with the modders..."

You simpleton really need to state the stupidly obvious...

I just can't believe it...
Posted By: Hiver Re: Mods for sale, with official support ? - 25/07/14 10:02 AM
[Linked Image]


Posted By: Cromcrom Re: Mods for sale, with official support ? - 25/07/14 11:40 AM
Yes, I was considering naming a pig or a rat after you and Karate kiddy, but considering how childish, stupid and lame it was, I didn't follow. And still won't do it, you don't even deserve that. Pigs and rats don't deserve that either.

^^
Posted By: Hiver Re: Mods for sale, with official support ? - 25/07/14 11:52 AM
But it isnt stupid, childish and lame to mention it? And to keep up with the dimwit insults and flaming.
Not to mention how insulting it is to imply children think like you do.

The screenshot above is official. btw.

Very appropriate i would say. Of course many may think they should have made you one of the trolls, but you arent trolling. And trolls of the game are much smarter and better then that. This behavior and stupidity you exhibit repeatedly is real you, actually.

Posted By: Samael187 Re: Mods for sale, with official support ? - 25/07/14 12:56 PM
Another pointless topic...

Modding community have always been built on devotion with no cash involved.
You want to make money with tweaking without creating anything in the first place?
Just take Unity or UE3 (they are almost free), make your own content, models, textures, scripts, role-play system, etc.
Then, spend some fortune on marketing and many months of production...
Then release your project and keep supporting it for free...
And then, some know-all will say to you if you would give him nice and neat modding tool he will make you some mods/DLC for money. What will you say to that person?

Larian CAN and WILL make their own chargeable content. Why do you think they have to share with you?
And if you think yourself such a great level designer, scripter or fount of wisdom, make your own project, go on the kickstarter and you'll see, how "easy" is this whole procedure of game creation...

The main question to Larian should be why they've promised full modding support and for now we can't even mod the good half of things in normal way. But we are still waiting the answer or even solutions to that question.

You've been given a Great Game and you want to make money while getting pleasure of it with everything ready in the first place?
In Russia, we have a folk proverb:
http://ru.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E8_%F0%FB%E1%EA%F3_%F1%FA%E5%F1%F2%FC,_%E8_%ED%E0_%F5%F3%E9_%F1%E5%F1%F2%FC
(Sorry, no support of Cyrillic, had to make a link if someone is interested).
The closest analog in English is: "You cannot sell the cow and drink the milk".
Think about that.
Posted By: Windemere Re: Mods for sale, with official support ? - 25/07/14 02:03 PM
Originally Posted by Raze

- The juvenile insults and condescending attitudes in some posts did not rise to a level requiring moderation.


While it may not be more than an annoyance in a thread like this, I do hope you consider some stricter moderation in these mods forums within the threads where we are trying to share information and grow community knowledge. It's one thing when you have an opinion thread like this, but it's another when useful information intended to build a better community and prolong the success and lifespan of D:OS is drowned out by the same people who repeatedly demonstrate that they can't hold a civil, mature conversation. There is such a thread that is in danger of becoming that now.

Posted By: Meynolt Re: Mods for sale, with official support ? - 25/07/14 03:09 PM
Can't do that because you (or any other modder) don't own the intellectual rights to the product you've modded. Larian won't allow it either because of the danger of getting sued by other companies if a mod is monetized with elements from their IP or various rights towards that IP. Heck even free mods with certain IPs that people made for various games were gutted in the past, the most notorious studio to pull this off in the past was LucasArts with their Star Wars IP protection.

Don't forget the premise either that when you make a mod, even if you do import custom art and models etc. that you're still using the program made by Larian, thus you use their software to profit on your own creation. Conflict of interests still apply there.

Mod made by someone else and monetized by Larian? It's been done before with Bioware's Aurora Editor for Neverwinter Nights 1, but what no one told you is that in order to rake in part of the profit (which was VERY minimal at best), the modmakers had to fully sign over the rights of their creation to the creator of the tools used to make that mod, aka Bioware. I'm not blaming Bioware for being greedy, it's their own right to do so, they made the game and toolset after all.

In short, it's a terrible idea from a business point of view if you're the creator. I won't judge if it's a good idea or not, but the facts are there.
Posted By: Hiver Re: Mods for sale, with official support ? - 25/07/14 05:02 PM
What part of:


Originally Posted by Hiver

Anyway, lets see if i can make a list to present how this would go - theoretically.


1. Larian studios make official rules about it.



2. Only whole new campaigns, standalones or total conversions would be considered for this kind of process.

Of course, Larian devs can and should specify this further, in specific details and requirements.

- Some of these mods can be sold as standalones, some as parts of a big community packs with many mods inside. Whatever would work best.



3. Only the best of the best would actually get accepted, by Larian devs, with possible partial addition of community voting.

- Devs have the final say regardless of community voting.


4. The process goes something like this:

A modder or modding team starts working on their big mod.

- When they have something playable they start releasing it to the community for testing and comments, bug and other quality assurance, maybe as sort of beta versions of their final creation.

- When they are ready and decide to go for it, they submit the mod to Larian devs for judgement.

- Larian takes in account community comments about it and then decides.



5. Any tools, scripts, hacks, tricks, or whatever else the mod contains must be shared freely.


- If the mod is non commercial this falls under usual personal rules of behavior.

- If the mod gets accepted and judged worthy by Larian studios, sharing all such tools, tricks and info becomes mandatory. Or else.

All your scripts, hacks, tools and info belongs to Larian studios.


6. The only thing that is truly yours is the content you created for such a mod. Its story, gameplay, setting, lore, characters and their dialogues - and ultimately how it plays - the gestalt of the whole.


Everything else is just you tinkering with Larian property and their creation. Which they let you to do, being nice guys as they are.



7. Since you are creating this creation of yours on their engine, the content you create, the gestalt of your game/mod is only theoretically "yours".


Its just a nice thing to say. Not anything actually legally relevant.

Larian studios is sharing their engine editor with you - therefore you will share back all you make and create with it.

Any eventual money too. Under rules and terms decided by Larian studios.



8. Dont like it? Dont apply for it.


Want to make such a mod and share it freely? Do so.






- is confusing you Meynolt?

from where exactly did you pull out that someone wants to "sell mods", like - privately?

what the f... does this even mean:

Quote
Can't do that because you (or any other modder) don't own the intellectual rights to the product you've modded.


or

Quote
Don't forget the premise either that when you make a mod, even if you do import custom art and models etc. that you're still using the program made by Larian, thus you use their software to profit on your own creation.


?

Did you read anything but the title?

Did you even read the title?

anything at all?

Posted By: Hickups Re: Mods for sale, with official support ? - 25/07/14 05:22 PM
Originally Posted by Meynolt
Can't do that because you (or any other modder) don't own the intellectual rights to the product you've modded. Larian won't allow it either because of the danger of getting sued by other companies if a mod is monetized with elements from their IP or various rights towards that IP. Heck even free mods with certain IPs that people made for various games were gutted in the past, the most notorious studio to pull this off in the past was LucasArts with their Star Wars IP protection.

Don't forget the premise either that when you make a mod, even if you do import custom art and models etc. that you're still using the program made by Larian, thus you use their software to profit on your own creation. Conflict of interests still apply there.

Mod made by someone else and monetized by Larian? It's been done before with Bioware's Aurora Editor for Neverwinter Nights 1, but what no one told you is that in order to rake in part of the profit (which was VERY minimal at best), the modmakers had to fully sign over the rights of their creation to the creator of the tools used to make that mod, aka Bioware. I'm not blaming Bioware for being greedy, it's their own right to do so, they made the game and toolset after all.

In short, it's a terrible idea from a business point of view if you're the creator. I won't judge if it's a good idea or not, but the facts are there.


precisely what i was saying legal nightmare the one time i feel corporate butt rape actually works in a game communities favour

and Hiver a large subsect of the modding community does not like the idea and frankly from all intents and purposes it is not going to happen which means any arguments in favour of it are rather redundant.

Posted By: Meynolt Re: Mods for sale, with official support ? - 25/07/14 05:30 PM
Originally Posted by Hiver
What part of:


Originally Posted by Hiver

Anyway, lets see if i can make a list to present how this would go - theoretically.


1. Larian studios make official rules about it.



2. Only whole new campaigns, standalones or total conversions would be considered for this kind of process.

Of course, Larian devs can and should specify this further, in specific details and requirements.

- Some of these mods can be sold as standalones, some as parts of a big community packs with many mods inside. Whatever would work best.



3. Only the best of the best would actually get accepted, by Larian devs, with possible partial addition of community voting.

- Devs have the final say regardless of community voting.


4. The process goes something like this:

A modder or modding team starts working on their big mod.

- When they have something playable they start releasing it to the community for testing and comments, bug and other quality assurance, maybe as sort of beta versions of their final creation.

- When they are ready and decide to go for it, they submit the mod to Larian devs for judgement.

- Larian takes in account community comments about it and then decides.



5. Any tools, scripts, hacks, tricks, or whatever else the mod contains must be shared freely.


- If the mod is non commercial this falls under usual personal rules of behavior.

- If the mod gets accepted and judged worthy by Larian studios, sharing all such tools, tricks and info becomes mandatory. Or else.

All your scripts, hacks, tools and info belongs to Larian studios.


6. The only thing that is truly yours is the content you created for such a mod. Its story, gameplay, setting, lore, characters and their dialogues - and ultimately how it plays - the gestalt of the whole.


Everything else is just you tinkering with Larian property and their creation. Which they let you to do, being nice guys as they are.



7. Since you are creating this creation of yours on their engine, the content you create, the gestalt of your game/mod is only theoretically "yours".


Its just a nice thing to say. Not anything actually legally relevant.

Larian studios is sharing their engine editor with you - therefore you will share back all you make and create with it.

Any eventual money too. Under rules and terms decided by Larian studios.



8. Dont like it? Dont apply for it.


Want to make such a mod and share it freely? Do so.






- is confusing you Meynolt?

from where exactly did you pull out that someone wants to "sell mods", like - privately?

what the f... does this even mean:

Quote
Can't do that because you (or any other modder) don't own the intellectual rights to the product you've modded.


or

Quote
Don't forget the premise either that when you make a mod, even if you do import custom art and models etc. that you're still using the program made by Larian, thus you use their software to profit on your own creation.


?

Did you read anything but the title?

Did you even read the title?

anything at all?



I'm merely stating facts and am also reflecting my post on previous comments made by other people.
Posted By: Hiver Re: Mods for sale, with official support ? - 25/07/14 05:34 PM
Good of you to inform me about it Hickup.
I appreciate the update on your opinion, valuable as it is.

-

If anyone has anything meaningful and relevant to say, ask or discuss - please do so. Just ignore these posts from people not capable of reading or understanding sentences written in big colored letters.

I sure will. Extending ignore privileges now.


- facts meynolt? reflecting ?

Would be nice if it had anything to do with what i suggested instead of complete nonsense completely unrelated to this discussion. Too much to hope for in your case, obviously.

Posted By: Hickups Re: Mods for sale, with official support ? - 25/07/14 06:19 PM
Hiver ive already pointed out that your only example that of the upcoming UT game is a broken one the engine that will be used to make content is a proprietary engine that you will have to buy into cheap as it may be its still a cost based model of 15 dollars per month. Plus Epic then retains the right to further monetize your work and as i have already stated its the "cleanest" way of doing it and the one method i have no issue with.

However taking a free modding tool for a proprietary game to make content then sell that content using any scheme seems disingenuous and frankly i can see no examples in the world where that has ever been done successfully and as i said it is also legally difficult.
Why is Epic able to do it? because they have control of that content from beginning to end even though in all honesty i see this blowing up in their faces eventually time will tell.

Furthermore this charging for mods upfront i will not agree to no matter what scheme your suggesting (in this example colluding with larian), the simple fact of the matter is it would be charging for mods upfront, i don't know how you believe that your carefully worded side step changes that on the user end of things you are being charged upfront. there are quite a few studio quality modifications for skyrim another community that ive been involved with faalskar being a very good example even so much so bethesda gave the creator an honorable mention but in the end it was still a modification of their game using their modding tool.

Furthermore ive seen community packs for games included in official content for many a game but it was never ever charged for the only game your clinging to with any iota of precedence in this scheme even working A: hasn't been released yet B:Still requires a paid for engine so my argument still stands no developer has ever allowed monetization of a "mod"

and one can only judge the future based on what has happened in the past can larian break the mold? sure they can, have they? no they have not, do i want them to? hell no! i love this game its the only rpg since skyrim ive found with any promise.

And in concluding every mod hoster meaning third party sites that host game modifications have rules against monetization nexusmods, modsdb, steamworkshop, meaning paid for work could not be posted to any of them which further cements my point that every major name in the modding community is firmly against the idea of mod monetization in anyform and since larian has integrated steam workshop i believe they have to adopt SW's policy yes you can host elsewhere but once again a whole other can of worms and headaches i doubt larian would want to take on.
Posted By: Mr. C Re: Mods for sale, with official support ? - 25/07/14 06:33 PM
Originally Posted by Raze
Originally Posted by Cromcrom
Quote
If Larian said "Want to sell your mods on our marketplace? No problem, we take 10% of the sales and you get the rest" I can GUARANTEE YOU the result would be stunning and high quality mods.

And I guarantee you there would be no modding "community", only modding studios.

If anyone could guarantee anything, Larian would already have a policy in place regarding commercialization of mods. There are no guarantees, and there are no absolute facts in this regard. If you want to back up your opinions with examples of other games, etc, then do so.

Given the complaints about this topic, there may be a few deletions as I read through the rest of it...

Well that was kind of pointless. For those who complained:
- Some of posts did go off topic, but pretty much everything worth saying on topic was said before then, and the topic isn't completely derailed. It may or may not return to actual debate on the topic.
- The juvenile insults and condescending attitudes in some posts did not rise to a level requiring moderation.


Dungeons and Dragons 3.0.

They did something with that system that no one had ever done before. They made it open source. The end result was legions of books, addons, spinoffs, you name it.

Though it's a different medium in some respects the fact remains that by allowing other people to earn income off of their base game they made 3.5 *the* system to beat even a decade on later. To this day it remains arguably the most popular tabletop gaming system ever.

Again, it's an imperfect example. One is print, one is digital... but the basis is that a company puts out a product that comes preset with the belief the users may modify it as they see fit, and that selfsame company allowed others to profit off that system.
Posted By: Meynolt Re: Mods for sale, with official support ? - 25/07/14 07:22 PM
Originally Posted by Hiver
Good of you to inform me about it Hickup.
I appreciate the update on your opinion, valuable as it is.

-

If anyone has anything meaningful and relevant to say, ask or discuss - please do so. Just ignore these posts from people not capable of reading or understanding sentences written in big colored letters.

I sure will. Extending ignore privileges now.


- facts meynolt? reflecting ?

Would be nice if it had anything to do with what i suggested instead of complete nonsense completely unrelated to this discussion. Too much to hope for in your case, obviously.



I don't really understand the hostility you pose towards me personally, I did answer with facts to your question and also based said response towards comments of other people. You're not the center of the universe and frankly, I fully understand why some people are brash towards you because you don't seem to show the other any type of respect at all. I suggest a mod closes this thread down asap as it only serves to bait people into a very obvious troll post.
Posted By: Raze Re: Mods for sale, with official support ? - 25/07/14 10:34 PM
Originally Posted by Windemere
While it may not be more than an annoyance in a thread like this, I do hope you consider some stricter moderation in these mods forums within the threads where we are trying to share information and grow community knowledge.

Good point, and yes, anything off topic in a help topic is fair game for deletion.
Posted By: Hiver Re: Mods for sale, with official support ? - 26/07/14 01:00 AM
Refusing to moderate your own forums will result in the same thing that happened with the global chat in the game.

You are already overrun with mass market players and by not doing anything at all about blatant flaming, insults and off topic posts spamming you are actually supporting such posters and that mentality.


-


Meynolt, saying your post is nonsense and that you arent even replying to my suggestion here - which you then actually confirmed - is not hostility towards you personally, however you might want to paint it like that to play a victim and so demand special actions to be taken.

You may also learn to quote posts you are replying too, although it would be better if you could understand those posts are completely nonsensical reactions from a few posters that failed to read and understand my simple suggestion.

Replying to them makes your post even more irrelevant and nonsensical in this thread.
Demanding this thread to be closed and intentionally lying about it somehow being a "troll post" sufficiently reveals the same distorted psychology.


Posted By: Raze Re: Mods for sale, with official support ? - 26/07/14 09:07 AM

Perhaps people will learn to ignore those who get on their nerves, avoid making offhanded insults or responding to such, or reacting to perceived attacks, etc, and there will be no need of anything more than occasional moderation.

You are on the receiving end of some of those complaints. Should I do the moderating you want me to do, or them? Or both?

I'm pretty sure everyone figures their insults and off topic posts are somehow justifiable (because they are 'right' or being attacked, or whatever), while other such posts are not. There are also some posts that are perceived as rude or an attack when that was not the intent, which may then cause someone to become overly defensive, etc.

I will lock topics that get derailed and delete posts that get too out of hand, but if you want heavy handed moderation, it'll be in the form of blanket bans and deletions. I'm about as likely to try to sort out who 'started it' as parents are with 5 year olds (and that's about the maturity level involved whenever anything happens that would require moderation).
Posted By: Hiver Re: Mods for sale, with official support ? - 26/07/14 09:47 AM
Perhaps.

Perhaps things will sort themselves out and everything will be great just by itself.
Thats a reasonable expectation.

Perhaps the forums will be drowned in spam posts the examples of which already distort this thread heavily. Their motivations being exceedingly clear and simplistic. Based on misunderstanding and overblown reactions to their own misunderstanding to boot.

You will lock topics that get derailed?
So... that means anyone who doesnt like to even hear a suggestion like i made here can just come into the topic, keep derailing it by spamming flaming, incoherent posts and then have it locked?

Dont you realize who that kind of behavior supports, inevitably?

Am i then supposed to go into threads i dont like and spam them to hell?

Quote
You are on the receiving end of some of those complaints. Should I do the moderating you want me to do, or them? Or both?

Take a wild guess.
- Both of course.


Quote
but if you want heavy handed moderation,


How about any, instead? How about some smart moderation instead of complete extremes of none and nuclear bombardment from orbit?

-


The rewards for making a large mod are manifold. First and foremost the creative process itself is a reward. That is why you should be doing it.

Second, if you make something good, you and your contributors will get publicity. This might open up opportunities that were previously unavailable for you. A lot of successful game developers started out this way. But they worked for free for years first.

So you may well see economical rewards, but they will be far down the road. You might get offered a job or you might be able to ask for donations to make another mod of the same quality. If you are really really good/lucky, you might get offered a deal to monetize your mod.

But as long as you are modding and not making your own game (which is a lot harder), I think it is best to assume that you are not getting paid.
Posted By: BioSpirit Re: Mods for sale, with official support ? - 27/07/14 12:59 AM
I suppose it would be possible to sell a mod to Larian but the question is that are they interested in "Buying" a high quality mods and releasing them as an official DLC ?

I made a mod for the Dragon Age: Origins called "Hilltop Under Siege" and it took somewhere around 400 to 500 hours of work to create the mod. Of course, that was not a high quality mod and I had to create a lightmap post-prosessor, GFF file parser, inport/export scripts and utilities for Blender to allow a creation of a custom models. I don't think that I would make the same deal again just to get a few people to congratulate. I suppose there are people who are motivated or engouraged by seeing a high number in a download counter and that can be archived by creating a sex mods not with a quests and story content. (Base on DA:O experience)

I have downloaded the Divinity Engine Toolkit a while ago and I have already spend about 30 hours to study it and creating a level artwork. The problem is that I don't really know is there any point to invest efforts for a bigger mod or just create a tiny-mod for fun.

Of course, the question of selling a mods would lead to an other problem: How would a modder know if he has any changes to get his mod released as an official DLC ? Also, I suppose, someone might pull his hair off after spending a lot of time making a mod and then realize that his mod is not good enough to qualify.

Originally Posted by Rymdkejsaren
But as long as you are modding and not making your own game (which is a lot harder), I think it is best to assume that you are not getting paid.


Yes, I agree.
Posted By: dsvw56 Re: Mods for sale, with official support ? - 27/07/14 01:14 AM
Originally Posted by BioSpirit
I made a mod for the Dragon Age: Origins called "Hilltop Under Siege" and it took somewhere around 400 to 500 hours of work to create the mod.


Hey, I was a huge fan of that mod. Glad to see you here and hope you decide to stick around. Would love to see more of your work.
Posted By: Raze Re: Mods for sale, with official support ? - 27/07/14 02:13 AM
Originally Posted by Hiver
So... that means anyone who doesnt like to even hear a suggestion like i made here can just come into the topic, keep derailing it by spamming flaming, incoherent posts and then have it locked?

If the topic as a whole is derailed, it can be locked. If individuals are spam flaming, those posts can be deleted and temporary/permanent bans given.

I consider a topic derailed when it is irredeemably off topic. People are free to post in public topics that they they didn't fully read, or didn't understand, or simply have a difference of opinion about. There is no way to stop that, just like there is no way to stop people from posting to ask a question that was answered in another post near the top of the forum list, or which a forum search would have quickly resolved.


Originally Posted by Hiver
Both of course, wtf is wrong with you?

Well, while I do have a problem with your tone and language in some instances, some of which are partially justifiable (in terms of tone), I believe overall you have been a net contributor to this forum, and do not deserve to be banned.
Does that really make me so wrong?


Originally Posted by Hiver
If you or anyone else would bother to keep things a bit more civil

Pot, meet kettle.


Originally Posted by Hiver
How about any, instead? How about some smart moderation instead of complete extremes of none and nuclear bombardment from orbit?

Unfortunately, I can not speed read, and my focus is on technical support first. I am getting caught up in the forum, but at the moment I can not follow every discussion as it progresses (some I don't even see until someone hits the Notify button). Perhaps additional warning posts or faster deletion of off topic posts would have more of an influence than previous warning posts. While I will try to do so soon, in general these disputes could easily be resolved on their own if the people involved acted reasonably, or at least respectfully.


Originally Posted by Hiver
by not doing anything you will let a specific kind of posters rule the forums and control who says what.

Lack of moderation allows anyone to post their opinion. That is kind of the point of freedom of speech. At most I would want to influence / moderate the way people express what they say (in some case), not the actual content of what they say.
Posted By: blazed Re: Mods for sale, with official support ? - 27/07/14 05:20 AM
Originally Posted by BioSpirit
I made a mod for the Dragon Age: Origins called "Hilltop Under Siege" and it took somewhere around 400 to 500 hours of work to create the mod. I don't think that I would make the same deal again just to get a few people to congratulate.


Pretty Much sums it up.

Modding is actually a genius idea that most people fail to see.

Modding is Extra Content for the Original developer, effortlessly.

Modding is Extra Sales for the Original developer, due to popular mods, again effortlessly.

Thank god for the passionate people who will do it all for free, whilst we keep on gaining for their efforts.

Then its: "it has come to our attention, that the community would not like to allow the sales of mods, so to keep everyone happy, and because we are the good guys, we decided to refuse such a tragic idea."

If you are modding in hopes of becoming the next big hit like DayZ, DOTA, etc. then statistics pretty much says "yeah... ok... good luck" Might as well go try being the next pewdiepie on youtube.

Its not all bad though, I bought UE4 for onetime fee of $19 (no subscription updates) and all they want is 5% of whatever I make (if any). Sure I need to programme more and create more 3D props but the trade-off is so much better and so many opportunities left open, also much more educational value too. What they ask for is so very little for such a powerful game engine, CryEngine even removed their royalty all together, so at least some steps in the right direction.
Posted By: henryv Re: Mods for sale, with official support ? - 27/07/14 09:17 AM
Originally Posted by blazed
Originally Posted by BioSpirit
I made a mod for the Dragon Age: Origins called "Hilltop Under Siege" and it took somewhere around 400 to 500 hours of work to create the mod. I don't think that I would make the same deal again just to get a few people to congratulate.


Pretty Much sums it up.

Modding is actually a genius idea that most people fail to see.

Modding is Extra Content for the Original developer, effortlessly.

Modding is Extra Sales for the Original developer, due to popular mods, again effortlessly.

Thank god for the passionate people who will do it all for free, whilst we keep on gaining for their efforts.

Then its: "it has come to our attention, that the community would not like to allow the sales of mods, so to keep everyone happy, and because we are the good guys, we decided to refuse such a tragic idea."

If you are modding in hopes of becoming the next big hit like DayZ, DOTA, etc. then statistics pretty much says "yeah... ok... good luck" Might as well go try being the next pewdiepie on youtube.

Its not all bad though, I bought UE4 for onetime fee of $19 (no subscription updates) and all they want is 5% of whatever I make (if any). Sure I need to programme more and create more 3D props but the trade-off is so much better and so many opportunities left open, also much more educational value too. What they ask for is so very little for such a powerful game engine, CryEngine even removed their royalty all together, so at least some steps in the right direction.


This is actually what I'm for, at least modders get some share of their work. Free or not free, they still eat like normal human beings.

What I'm against is the official support from Larian as OP have suggested. We don't need the golden quality seal similarly with nintendo. Modders (or developers in this case) chose to sell their game at their own risk. They don't need to bring the name of Larian with them, only the name of the engine. ALso puttin manpower hours to checking the quality of the mod will be expensive and there will be numerous submission.

The only thing I'm concerned with is the terms between the modders/developers and Larian. It needs to be non-discriminatory and reasonable for both parties.
Posted By: Hiver Re: Mods for sale, with official support ? - 27/07/14 12:44 PM
Originally Posted by Rymdkejsaren
The rewards for making a large mod are manifold. First and foremost the creative process itself is a reward. That is why you should be doing it.

Second, if you make something good, you and your contributors will get publicity. This might open up opportunities that were previously unavailable for you. A lot of successful game developers started out this way. But they worked for free for years first.

So you may well see economical rewards, but they will be far down the road. You might get offered a job or you might be able to ask for donations to make another mod of the same quality. If you are really really good/lucky, you might get offered a deal to monetize your mod.

Yes of course, that all goes with it as usual.

I thought that self-explanatory and already self - understood (?) in the context of the discussion subject so not in need of especial mention.

All that simply goes with moding - usually.

And if you look at exactly what i propose youll see that it doesnt stop or prevent or in any way negatively affects usual modding which is already done currently and will be. Anyway.



Originally Posted by Rymdkejsaren

But as long as you are modding and not making your own game (which is a lot harder), I think it is best to assume that you are not getting paid.

I said i will release a few mods freely myself - presuming i get good ewith the editor and actually make them. If the one in my signature comes to fruition it will be freely shared. For example.

And that alone will be a huge mod.
But not the kind that would fit under specific deal and rules i suggested or the whole ... spirit of the idea i discussed from the start. I wouldn't even think to offer it to Larian for that deal, just by myself, personally.


On the other hand i will maybe make a complete standalone, with different story and everything, then maybe that could go into some bundle or another type of monetary deal for Larian studio and modders.

But under Larian control and curation, of course, as i was saying form the start.
Naturally that all these mods would probably find themselves on torrents very soon if they are good, but the whole deal would be actually made as a deal that thrives on community support.


Lets not forget that these kinds of bigger more serious mods often require several people to work on them for a long time. With all the usual potential for incompatibilities and internet arguing and personal strife - working in an environment where you will be rewarded for your work in virtual handshakes - if at all - makes additional burden on such projects.


A possibility that it could be worth it in a more substantial way would affect such long term projects positively. And a big deal of that more substantial return would be the public recognition and kudos.

Because just being admitted in that league with your mod would prove someone can make almost a whole game on certain professional standards.

I envision submitting a mod to Larian devs for review for this kind of a deal as a test a very few will pass.So it could be an achievement of prestige, on its own.

All under caveats of course, that i count on Larian devs to make their own setup of how it would all work as they want. In case they would accept this kind of idea.


Originally Posted by BioSpirit
I suppose it would be possible to sell a mod to Larian but the question is that are they interested in "Buying" a high quality mods and releasing them as an official DLC ?


I have to strongly correct you here in one specific thing.

Nobody would "sell" any mods to Larian studios.


Some modders or teams could submit their mod for Larian studios review to include it in the possible deal for sales of some kind - and various options are available for that specific part alone of course - but there would be no guarantee a mod would pass the evaluation of devs, if it would be sent back for adjustments and improvements or anything else suitable. As devs decide.



Here is the general outlook in a more specified form in which the deal would actually work:

1. Larian studios make official rules about it.



2. Only whole new campaigns, standalones or total conversions would be considered for this kind of process.

Of course, Larian devs can and should specify this further, in specific details and requirements.

- Some of these mods can be sold as standalones, some as parts of a big community packs with many mods inside. Whatever would work best.



3. Only the best of the best would actually get accepted, by Larian devs, with possible partial addition of community voting.

- Devs have the final say regardless of community voting.


4. The process goes something like this:

A modder or modding team starts working on their big mod.

- When they have something playable they start releasing it to the community for testing and comments, bug and other quality assurance, maybe as sort of beta versions of their final creation.

- When they are ready and decide to go for it, they submit the mod to Larian devs for judgement.

- Larian takes in account community comments about it and then decides.



5. Any tools, scripts, hacks, tricks, or whatever else the mod contains must be shared freely.


- If the mod is non commercial this falls under usual personal rules of behavior.

- If the mod gets accepted and judged worthy by Larian studios, sharing all such tools, tricks and info becomes mandatory. Or else.

All your scripts, hacks, tools and info belongs to Larian studios.


6. The only thing that is truly yours is the content you created for such a mod. Its story, gameplay, setting, lore, characters and their dialogues - and ultimately how it plays - the gestalt of the whole.


Everything else is just you tinkering with Larian property and their creation. Which they let you to do, being nice guys as they are.



7. Since you are creating this creation of yours on their engine, the content you create, the gestalt of your game/mod is only theoretically "yours".


Its just a nice thing to say. Not anything actually legally relevant.

Larian studios is sharing their engine editor with you - therefore you will share back all you make and create with it.

Any eventual money too. Under rules and terms decided by Larian studios.



8. Dont like it? Dont apply for it.


Want to make such a mod and share it freely? Do so.


Posted By: Hiver Re: Mods for sale, with official support ? - 27/07/14 01:06 PM
Originally Posted by henryv
Originally Posted by blazed
Originally Posted by BioSpirit
I made a mod for the Dragon Age: Origins called "Hilltop Under Siege" and it took somewhere around 400 to 500 hours of work to create the mod. I don't think that I would make the same deal again just to get a few people to congratulate.

/

Its not all bad though, I bought UE4 for onetime fee of $19 (no subscription updates) and all they want is 5% of whatever I make (if any). Sure I need to programme more and create more 3D props but the trade-off is so much better and so many opportunities left open, also much more educational value too. What they ask for is so very little for such a powerful game engine, CryEngine even removed their royalty all together, so at least some steps in the right direction.


This is actually what I'm for, at least modders get some share of their work. Free or not free, they still eat like normal human beings.

What I'm against is the official support from Larian as OP have suggested. We don't need the golden quality seal similarly with nintendo. Modders (or developers in this case) chose to sell their game at their own risk. They don't need to bring the name of Larian with them, only the name of the engine. ALso puttin manpower hours to checking the quality of the mod will be expensive and there will be numerous submission.

The only thing I'm concerned with is the terms between the modders/developers and Larian. It needs to be non-discriminatory and reasonable for both parties.


I suggested that it is controlled and curated directly by Larian studios for specific reasons - thinking in terms of mods specifically.

- To prevent sales of all kinds of things, many of those various "garbage" or who knows what, which would clog and suffocate the whole deal, which originally was supposed to present only works of quality worthy of such a deal.


- To make sure Larian studios benefits from that directly
1. Because those are their tools and assets we are using and it is all - worthy.
2. Because they would need to spent some resources, time and ork to set it up and evalue submitted works even with option of steam workshop being there as distribution channel and other services like it.



But sure guys, as Blazed said above, times have changed and now we do have Unreal engine selling for 20 bucks and 5% of profits, Cryengine for what... 10? - which i plan to use for my own game, linked in my signature, Unity is there of course and several others.


So... certainly. If Larian would go for such kind of a deal with their engine - by all means. Yes.
It can be done like that, or that can be an additional option beside this one with mods.


The big difference between the two being that when you are moding you get to play with all their tools, scripts, mechanics, assets, textures, models, effects, animations, dialogue editor, etc, etc, etc.

Which is why it may be worth considering specifically.


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