Larian Studios

The first thing you see in the game

Posted By: Vulpes Absurda

The first thing you see in the game - 18/09/16 01:04 AM

Is this really the first thing you want people to see in the game?

[Linked Image]

(I'm afraid you'll have to follow the link to see the picture as I'm not yet a full forum member. But for those who do no wish to follow the link it is a picture of the female elf that appears when you boot up character creation)

I have to be honest, I was really excited for this game, but having this be the default state of dress for an entire race of women has murdered my enthusiasm. And I’m not the only one who was disappointed by this rather blatant sexism.

You can say all you want about how the men are dressed the same for the elves, but it’s not equivalent in any way. Women are constantly sexualized or reduced to their anatomy. You can’t hand wave it away by saying it’s their elven culture. A writer had to create that culture and that writer does not exist in a vacuum.

A few women I have asked about this have been hugely disappointed and have opted to not buy this game or future Larian products. These people have supported Larian for many years, and are disappointed with this choice. The only reason you’re hearing from me and not them is that this is so standard it wasn’t worth their time to write something like this out and then be told by commenters that they’re are being some sort of prude or that “The game is for adults and some people like this stuff and you’re just being an social jusblah blah blah”

And here’s the thing, I don’t really care if this sort of absurd outfit is an option. I think the elves look kinda gross in a living beef jerky plant kinda way but I’m guessing that’s the point and that’s fine. I even get why you would want to show that off. But it needs to be done in a way that isn’t also reusing tired bikini armour and seductive sorceress tropes. Because when you do that, that is the only thing that stands out. So it’s not just a failure in the way it can alienate roughly half the population of the planet, but an artistic one as well.

I hope you take these thoughts into consideration. I know you did something similar with the boxart for the previous game and while I still had issues with that game's presentation of women your willingness to make changes was a big part of why I wanted to give you a chance with this one and backed the kickstarter for two. I am disappointed to see that you have not learned from past mistakes.

Thank you for your time, and I hope you receive this in the spirit in which it is intended.
Posted By: Hassat Hunter

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 18/09/16 01:07 AM

Oh god, here we go...
Posted By: Wellzy4eva

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 18/09/16 01:23 AM

Men are constantly portrayed as having physiques of Greek gods in all forms of media as well, it's not sexism prejudice towards women.

Embracing Fantasy will always lead different people to dispute what's appropriate and what isn't and generally popular culture wins, ergo familiar stereotypes.

Is that in itself sexist? Probably, but don't blame the established artists for their influences.
Posted By: OxTeR

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 18/09/16 01:34 AM

I mean, is this seriously what bothers you about a game? How sexualized a female character looks? Is that the deciding factor if you're going to play a game or not? If so, I don't get it, I really don't. You're not playing games for the right reasons then imo.
Posted By: mesmerizedish

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 18/09/16 01:35 AM

Originally Posted by Wellzy4eva
Men are constantly portrayed as having physiques of Greek gods in all forms of media as well, it's not sexism prejudice towards women.


They're entirely different.

That said, I don't really have a problem with the elf armor. The elf men are equally undressed, and they're literally made of wood anyway, so I just... super don't care.

That said, I don't have a problem with having a problem with it, either? I'm not gonna tell you you're wrong, OP.

Like, does the elf appearance perpetuate some great social ill? I'm pretty certain that, in this specific case, the answer is no. But that doesn't invalidate any discomfort it may cause someone.
Posted By: kingcrowley

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 18/09/16 02:39 AM

I see no problems at all with the visual elements for this game.
Posted By: kingcrowley

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 18/09/16 02:39 AM

Right?
Posted By: Kiste

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 18/09/16 03:12 AM

Originally Posted by HassatHunter
Oh god, here we go...


Like clockwork. The point-and-shriek crowd will always find something to complain about, especially since Larian have been shown to be susceptible to this kind of pressure in the past. This just invites the crybullies to do it again and again. This is why you should not give those types even just an inch.



Posted By: Dark_Ansem

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 18/09/16 06:46 AM

One post, and only one made to bother.
Posted By: vometia

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 18/09/16 06:59 AM

I can't say I'm bothered by it: I actually think it's a pretty interesting design. What does bother me is when people talk about women gamers and what offends us rather than with us. Not saying that's the case here, but I have seen it happen and have felt almost chastised for speaking up when there's a man to speak on my behalf.
Posted By: Bhazor

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 18/09/16 07:34 AM

I award this OP 8/8
Posted By: Sordak

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 18/09/16 07:56 AM

Another one?
Goddamn away with your identity politics already.

Nobody listened to this nonsense in the first thread about this NON ISSUE and now you make another one attempting to appeal to larian that somehow people will be scared away from a game because GASP Nudity!

What is this the 90s?

This prudeness is ridiculous. You obviously have only contempt for Art and Beauty. Everything that does not bow to your arbitrary definitions of decency is verboten.

And lets be clear here. The "women" argument i dont buy for a minute.
Almost no women kickstarted the game and that was before any of this was shown. This is yet another non issue.
For all we know censorship doesnt make women buy games.

You know what games are popular? Games that dont care about this sort of "Issue".
What RPG did realy well the last year? oh right that was the Witcher 3, a game that was hounded by people like you for the exact same reasons.

Too sexy women, the protagonist is a man who is dressed decently and can have sex with gorgous sorcresses.

And you know what? Nobody cared. People LOVED that game and they LOVED its characters despite the women beeing dressed differently from the Protagonist.

And i can tell you plenty of women play the Witcher.

If thats not enaugh look at any MMO ever and look at what female players dress like in those.
Hint: Humans, not just women, want to look attractive. Thats why male players gravitate towards Conan the Barbarian style loincloth wearing Schwartzeneggers and women gravitate towards Femme Fatale types. And this is not a bad thing.
This is just normal. And its not like in Original sin you CANNOT be a plain looking person. You can be a Human whose armor is definitly not impractical and you can be a Dwarf where this is even less so the case.
Hell you can be a Lizard that doesnt even have breasts if thats your thing.
but you complain about an OPTION because it does not adher to your agenda.

Posted By: vometia

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 18/09/16 08:02 AM

Originally Posted by Sordak
And i can tell you plenty of women play the Witcher.

Well yeah, there's one here for a start. And I'm a backer. :p

I dunno. I know lots of other women who play RPGs and who mostly don't really care all that much either way about bikini armour and stuff. I find myself more offended by impractical swords that are likely to do more harm to their wielder than their adversary.

And shoes. There are some reasonably interesting shoes in the CC but just horrid clumpy great things in game. D:
Posted By: Ellary

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 18/09/16 08:32 AM

Vulpes welcome to fantasy games! Where male player characters are all troubled hard bodied thugs and women are either freakishly deformed or so butch they might as well be a man.

I pick games apart on character creation. As Vometia said~ most of us female gamers don't care about the skimpy armor. Like I know it's done for sales. I personally would have loved to see some pretty robes, but eh~

What does erk me about the game is no cute face options! they are all angry looking or aged. Why does Larian hate innocent looking characters! ;_; it's okay though, I still love everyone at Larian.
Posted By: Tuco

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 18/09/16 08:50 AM

I don't even care about how "sexualized" they may seem (especially given how hardly anything about them strikes me as "sexually appealing"); my major problem with elfs (elves?) in this game is that both males and females are absolutely ugly. Not even in a "deliberate and almost-cool" sort of way, more as some anatomical Eldritch abominations.

Oh, and they accentuate more than other races this dreadful and inexplicable obsession with GIANT PAULDRONS that Larian had for a while in their armor design.
Frankly giant pauldrons to me have always been more offensive than characters doing explicit sexual intercourse.

Just saying.
I don't expect them to change anything at this point, in the same way I don't even bother anymore pointing to them that randomized itemization is an atrocious design choice in a game with a finite number of encounters.
Posted By: 4verse

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 18/09/16 09:05 AM

Elves in DOS2 (as far as I know) live in rather close touch with nature just like some indigenous peoples in eg the Amazonas. Women there run around rather lightly clad (look it up). So, cultural wise that seems to fit. So, do you call indigenous people sexist as well? If not, whats the issue? It is a cultural feature not a sexist one.
Posted By: Hassat Hunter

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 18/09/16 09:27 AM

Originally Posted by vometia
And shoes. There are some reasonably interesting shoes in the CC but just horrid clumpy great things in game. D:

How stereotypical.

And yeah, my girlfriend (who is, shockingly, a woman, who guessed?), who is not a gamer, completed the entire The Withcher: Enhanced Edition. And probably would The Witcher II if it didn't run horribly on her laptop (really, it's like slideshow, not a fun way to game).
Posted By: OxTeR

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 18/09/16 09:50 AM

@Sordak, you da real mvp! :)
couldn't have said it better myself!
Larian has enough to bother about already.
Posted By: Beyond

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 18/09/16 10:21 AM

I love how the OP mentioned something that bothered him and you're all jumping at his throat.

This is a feedback forum. Stop being pricks and blaming people for not liking something. Stop attacking people who love this game enough to sign up for a forum and write a post about it.
There will be men and women who think it's fine and men and women who think it's not. THAT'S HOW OPINIONS WORK. You don't have to be pricks about it.


I completely agree with him. I personally have no problem with elves here (both males and females seem to shy away from armour, which is fine), but the fact that you go into character creation and the FIRST THING you see is a 85% nude female IS a bit jarring. Ignoring all other issues in the other post, simply selecting a different one as the starter would solve this (and that may very well be the case in the full game).
Posted By: Ellary

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 18/09/16 10:31 AM

Originally Posted by Beyond
I love how the OP mentioned something that bothered him and you're all jumping at his throat.

This is a feedback forum. Stop being pricks and blaming people for not liking something. Stop attacking people who love this game enough to sign up for a forum and write a post about it.
There will be men and women who think it's fine and men and women who think it's not. THAT'S HOW OPINIONS WORK. You don't have to be pricks about it.


I completely agree with him. I personally have no problem with elves here (both males and females seem to shy away from armour, which is fine), but the fact that you go into character creation and the FIRST THING you see is a 85% nude female IS a bit jarring. Ignoring all other issues in the other post, simply selecting a different one as the starter would solve this (and that may very well be the case in the full game).


So if it was a 85% nude male it would be okay? @_@. No ones really being a prick as you claim. least not in my eyes. You claim the OP has a right to an opinion, but then you call anyone with an opposite opinion a prick.. why not just get a big ol tank of gas and toss it into a bon fire.. cause that's pretty much what you are doing.

I personally hate the female elves, they look more like freaks to me. Like a norn and a sylvari had a freakish baby and never fed it (guild wars 2 races) I am female and the OP claims "females" are offended by seeing that. I guess I am one of those females who has the magical power of clicking the > button and changing the race.
Posted By: vometia

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 18/09/16 10:34 AM

Originally Posted by Beyond
I love how the OP mentioned something that bothered him and you're all jumping at his throat.

This is a feedback forum. Stop being pricks and blaming people for not liking something. Stop attacking people who love this game enough to sign up for a forum and write a post about it.
There will be men and women who think it's fine and men and women who think it's not. THAT'S HOW OPINIONS WORK. You don't have to be pricks about it. [...]

I'm not sure that repeatedly calling people "pricks" is necessarily the most effective way of making your point. The discussion has been fairly civil so far and it would be nice to keep it that way.
Posted By: OxTeR

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 18/09/16 10:39 AM

You're telling us how opinion works and that we are attacking OP and literally the beginning of your next paragraph is: I completely agree with him.
Kinda shows where you're coming from. Lots of people are disagreeing with you at once and you feel a little frustrated, I totally understand, but we are not attacking anyone here. If you want forums where people attack and yell at each other you should see forums of other games! :p
This here is still very civilised, we might be disagreeing, but it's a healthy discussion.
Posted By: JJ_Judge

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 18/09/16 10:42 AM

Go complain on the Witcher series developers' forum then. Sorry for being rude.
I don't have a problem with visual portrayal, neither does my girlfriend.
All IMO.
Posted By: Beyond

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 18/09/16 10:47 AM

TBH my "pricks" comment was mainly reserved to the few who which really attacked the OP (with things like "Another one? Goddamn away with your identity politics already." or "Like clockwork. The point-and-shriek crowd will always find something to complain about, especially since Larian have been shown to be susceptible to this kind of pressure in the past", "Oh god, here we go..." - is that a helpful discussion?), and it is carried over from the other post where people got REALLY racy. Might've been out of place here, so apologies for that.

"So if it was a 85% nude male it would be okay? @_@"
Actually not really, not for me at least. But an armoured one, or at least a clothed one (male or female, matters not) would be best (for me).

I'm REALLY not calling "everyone who disagrees" pricks, and I sincerely apologise if that's what you got from it. My problem is with people attacking other people as "prudish" or "SJW" and so forth, or completely dismissing it because "I don't find it offensive".

I'm positive not all females are offended by it. I actually really like the elves and their less-than-traditional-beauty. My wife did as well. That said, I (and the OP and other people) believe there are issues with some of it. That's it.
Posted By: Sordak

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 18/09/16 10:51 AM


Originally Posted by Beyond
I love how the OP mentioned something that bothered him and you're all jumping at his throat.


The OP has made a grand total of one post, which is complaining about something nobody else cares in the manner of identity politics that is very well known to infest any gaming forum attempting to stifle creativity.

So no i wont give the OP the benefit of the doubt.

Oh the FIRST THING you see is a bit of exposed skin! The horror! i a m sure all those victorian women will faint immediatly, too bad they are all long dead and buried because we have moved past that age.

Good to know you fully agree with an agenda loaden post from someone that has joined this forum ONLY to inform us about this one grievance. It is quite clear you are part of that particular hivemind too.
Posted By: Beyond

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 18/09/16 11:00 AM

This is priceless. This is exactly what I meant by my original post.

- "stifle creativity." - Are you serious? You're basically saying putting a different character as the first one you see "stifles creativity"? You think there's an artist or a designer over there, who if told to put Ifan as the first character, would be offended by it? This is, quite honestly, ridiculous.

- "is a bit of exposed skin" - Not sure if you know what "a bit" is, but clearly, this is NOT that.

- "It is quite clear you are part of that particular hivemind too." - Maybe. I guess you can ignore me saying I like the elves, it doesn't really matter what people say, does it?
Posted By: Ayvah

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 18/09/16 11:11 AM

Originally Posted by Ellary
What does erk me about the game is no cute face options! they are all angry looking or aged. Why does Larian hate innocent looking characters! ;_; it's okay though, I still love everyone at Larian.

I definitely second this. One of the most important things for convincing my wife to play a game is that the characters should be beautiful -- at the very least, this should include the character she's playing. Stripperiffic or not isn't too important. But she's been playing fantasy RPGs for a long time. People new to the genre will likely have very different feelings about this.

Originally Posted by Hassat Hunter
Oh god, here we go...

Let me just point out your hypocrisy here.

Vulpes criticises the stripperiffic woman that appears when you first start the game. You respond by rolling your eyes.

Earlier, you criticised Bioware for creating "softcore porn". And now you say how proud you are that your girlfriend played through The Witcher.

I'm sorry. What exactly do you find so offensive about the Bioware games? Were you actually trying to complain that the sex scenes weren't hardcore enough? I'm genuinely confused.

Originally Posted by Sordak
You know what games are popular? Games that dont care about this sort of "Issue".
What RPG did realy well the last year? oh right that was the Witcher 3


The first two Witcher games had issues with how they depicted "women and sex". Marcin, CEO of CD Projekt openly acknowledged these issues and the third game is, for the most part, a great example of how sex and relationships can be depicted in a non-sexist way.

Quote
Previous games have been criticised for their depiction of women and sex. What has been learned from that and how does has it impacted The Witcher 3?

The Witcher series definitely does show our evolution and learning path as a studio. The first game was a proving ground and we could have done a lot of things better including the depiction of sex. Having said that, take a look at The Witcher 2: Assassins of Kings and soon Wild Hunt, and you will see how we learn and develop.

From the very beginning our goal was to show the medieval world as it was. As previously mentioned, we are appealing to the mature audience and in terms of sex being part of mature world, we are not crossing any lines here, but rather trying to blend it with the story to make it more authentic and believable and show as a natural part of the world. If you look at Game of Thrones - both the books and the TV series - we are really not much different in the sexual aspect. What has changed in the last 10 years however is the way we present it, it is much more natural.
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/witcher-3-interview-ceo-marcin-iwiski-sexism-free-dlc-game-thrones-1492540

I think it's telling that in Witcher 3, the loudest complaints about sexism were connected to the setting. That's a pretty good sign that you've done everything else right. Most of these critics are arguing that a fantasy setting doesn't have to be realistic, so why is there a need to introduce real world sexism? Why are there no black people in this fantasy depiction of Polish mythology? It's an argument that echoes a lot of the arguments in these forums from people supporting the chainmail bikini.

"It's a fantasy setting. It has teleporting crocodiles, and you want realism?" It's amazing how you can both make exactly the same flawed argument as your worst enemies.

The fact is that a fantasy setting presents an alternative version of reality. We still need to feel immersed.

Yes, fantasy armour and weapons are often designed with "rule of cool" rather than strict practicality. But look, I'm a simple man. I am not an expert on realistic medieval armour and weapons. If I see armour that looks like it works, then that's enough for me.

There's nothing about elven armour that looks effective. Also, on reflection, I really think it looks terrible, and the elves generally look very unattractive.

(I never expected to be so fond of the lizardmen. They look pretty good.)

Originally Posted by Ellary
So if it was a 85% nude male it would be okay?

I do believe that the woman in sexualised armour makes a bad first impression mostly because there is an established history of sexism in the genre. You don't want people's first reaction to "okay, time to strap myself in for one of those RPGs". So yes, if the first impression were a man in sexualised armour, it would be less of an issue.

Actually, I think you'll agree that the worst part of this is that Sebille succeeds at being both oversexualised and extremely unattractive. That's probably the worst possible combination.

Still, I think most people should be able to last long enough to click the button to try changing gender or race before they start frothing at the mouth.
Posted By: Sordak

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 18/09/16 11:38 AM

Oh look at them swarm!
Best tactics you got. First you call everyone pricks and then you act like youve been the ones that have been insulted for people pointing out that somehow after nobody caring about your unrelated grievances in the other thread mysteriously another thread pops up with the exact same drivel made by an account created specifically for this venture.



Originally Posted by Beyond
- "stifle creativity." - Are you serious? You're basically saying putting a different character as the first one you see "stifles creativity"? You think there's an artist or a designer over there, who if told to put Ifan as the first character, would be offended by it? This is, quite honestly, ridiculous.


You freak out over a pixelated character beeing listed in front of another pixelated character and im the one thats ridiculous?
Also nice Motte and Bailey argument there. Yon dont simply want Ifan to be placed in the front you want certain poses that the designers created removed from the game and you want certain outfits that the artists have thought up to be removed and changed as such yes you want to stifle creativity.

Take note people reading this: They will demand one thing and when attacked they will always act as if they have demanded something insignificant. Its called the Motte and Bailey argument and its also a logical fallacy.


Originally Posted by Beyond
- "is a bit of exposed skin" - Not sure if you know what "a bit" is, but clearly, this is NOT that.


Oh no! Its almost nudity! Quick bring the Burka! Lest the fragile women will faint in the sight of slightly uncovered skin.

Originally Posted by Beyond
- "It is quite clear you are part of that particular hivemind too." - Maybe. I guess you can ignore me saying I like the elves, it doesn't really matter what people say, does it?


And yet you use the same nonsense arguments and fear mongering as the rest does.

Originally Posted by Ayvah
Vulpes criticises the stripperiffic woman that appears when you first start the game. You respond by rolling your eyes.


And youve yet to explain why thats a negative.

Originally Posted by Ayvah
I'm sorry. What exactly do you find so offensive about the Bioware games?


I can only speak for myself but i find it offensive that they are so bad.
For a company that prides itself in "Good writing" they sure create a bunch of very nonsensical situations where your character is quite clearly supposed to say one thing and if you dont the game chides you for it.
Also the combat system is bad and the quests are basically MMOs without the social element.

Originally Posted by Ayvah
a great example of how sex and relationships can be depicted in a non-sexist way.


Oh the first witcher was sexist? Explain to me why because im genuinly curious.
Because the quote you gave is not phrased that way at all. Instead he seems to be acknowledging that they were going with a more flashy game of thrones esque vibe for the first couple of games and then went with a more narrativeely focused approach to sex and relationships, nowhere does this mean that the first games were sexist.
Or do you consider game of thrones sexist? I mean game of throne certainly has sexist characters in it but thats the point, they are generaly not shown as particulary virtuous are they now...


Originally Posted by Ayvah
"It's a fantasy setting. It has teleporting crocodiles, and you want realism?" It's amazing how you can both make exactly the same flawed argument as your worst enemies.


actually i wasnt, i was making fun of the post stating that teleporting crocodiles are more realistic than uncovered midriffs.
As ive pointed out before: history, bareley covered warriors are pretty common with tribal societies and to me, this does not interfere with the believeability of the setting at all.

You are however quite right with your comparison of the including of black people in witcher. That is indeed an issue of simmilar idiocy.
However i think that is not the same issue here: Elves look like elves do in this setting, the female elves dont look any less covered than the male elves, as such it is quite easy to deduce that it is simply how elves dress in this setting and how they go to battle.
Why they dont have worse stats as a result is quite obvious: because that would be annoying.


Originally Posted by Ayvah
I really think it looks terrible, and the elves generally look very unattractive.

You are entitled to your opinion but an opinion is not an argument. I also think that instead of dwarves they could have gone with a more interresting race but just because i find dwarves to be a tired cliche doesnt mean thats an actual argument against their inclusion in the game.
Also im pretty sure elves arent meant to look attractive to humans, their arms are overly long as well as their legs im pretty sure they want them to look alien on purpose, simmilar to the lizards. Which again makes me wonder why the dwarves look so human by comparison.

Originally Posted by Ayvah
"okay, time to strap myself in for one of those RPGs".


if that stops you from playing a game you need to get your priorities straight.


Originally Posted by Ayvah

Actually, I think you'll agree that the worst part of this is that Sebille succeeds at being both oversexualised and extremely unattractive. That's probably the worst possible combination.


Actually id call that creative, its a nice way for throwing off the audience.
Same as how the red prince acts very regal and pampered when he looks like a predatory animal. Its a visual bait and switch.

I wouldnt fancy myself an artist but this sort of playing with the audience expectations i am quite fond of myself too.
Especialy since you talk about "those RPGs", isnt that a great way then to dislodge the audiences expectations of the game right away?
Posted By: Gorgonaut

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 18/09/16 12:32 PM

If I may toss in my two cents:

As a male gamer, with progressive and modern attitudes towards sexism and portrayal of women in games:

I don't find this offensive. I do, however, find it kind of tacky. It reminds me of a Chinese shovelware MMO design, and I don't agree with the aesthetics.
I get the cultural elven expression, but it just doesn't sit right with me.
That said, I know DO:S2 will be a game with so many good things, that it will completely obscure this one thing I really dislike.
Posted By: Hassat Hunter

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 18/09/16 12:32 PM

I guess no one noticed the OPs "You can say all you want about how the men are dressed the same for the elves, but it’s not equivalent in any way." right, or you could understand my 'here we go again'.

The OP basically outright stated the same is true for males, and they discard that since instead of actual discussion or thinking this is bad they need to feel victimnised. And just throwing away those good legit reasons why there is no victimisation.

Going all "everyone else looks the same, but let's ignore that and go all the way into my boohoo" is not exactly going to win my sympathy. It's making you look like someone without a clue.

EDIT: Also congrats on failing to see the difference between female skin and "I just talked to you for 5 minutes, LET's BANG"... that's what BioWare's softporn thing is all about, NPC's who are total sluts throwing themselves before the player.
Posted By: Ayvah

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 18/09/16 12:33 PM

Originally Posted by Sordak
The OP has made a grand total of one post, which is complaining about something nobody else cares in the manner of identity politics that is very well known to infest any gaming forum attempting to stifle creativity.

Not everyone has the time to be constantly making posts in this forum. There are plenty of other newbies who have made a single post over the last few days. It hasn't even been 24 hours yet.

Originally Posted by Sordak
Originally Posted by Ayvah
Vulpes criticises the stripperiffic woman that appears when you first start the game. You respond by rolling your eyes.
And youve yet to explain why thats a negative.

In this context, I was observing that he criticised Bioware for being "softcore porn", and yet he feels that this is fine. And that Witcher is fine. I seriously don't understand what he means by "softcore porn".

Originally Posted by Sordak
Originally Posted by Ayvah
I'm sorry. What exactly do you find so offensive about the Bioware games?
I can only speak for myself but i find it offensive that they are so bad.

I never argued that Bioware games are perfect. He complained that Bioware games had too much sex. Do you agree?

Originally Posted by Sordak
Oh the first witcher was sexist? Explain to me why because im genuinly curious.

Sex, particularly in the first game, was treated as a conquest. Geralt would find an attractive woman, pursue her until he achieved "sex", win a sexy "romance card" as a trophy and then would move on to the next conquest. You'll notice that this feature was removed in the Witcher 3. He still has sex. He still likes sex, but it's treated more maturely.

If you'll observe his sexual relationship with Yennefer, they have sex at multiple stages of the story -- including a point where she asks you for sex without any prompting from the player and gets grumpy if you refuse. She is treated as sexually interested and sexually equal. This is different from the first 2 games. This depiction is actually even more progressive than Bioware games (where you basically always have to initiate the sex).
Originally Posted by Sordak
Originally Posted by Ayvah
I really think it looks terrible, and the elves generally look very unattractive.
You are entitled to your opinion but an opinion is not an argument.

Agreed. It wasn't intended to be anything more than an opinion. But I'm confident that more than a few people will share this opinion.

Originally Posted by Sordak
I also think that instead of dwarves they could have gone with a more interresting race but just because i find dwarves to be a tired cliche doesnt mean thats an actual argument against their inclusion in the game.

I agree that dwarves are boring. I would prefer to get rid of them. Glad we can agree on that. Maybe we could have playable orcs instead?

Originally Posted by Sordak
Originally Posted by Ayvah

Actually, I think you'll agree that the worst part of this is that Sebille succeeds at being both oversexualised and extremely unattractive. That's probably the worst possible combination.
Actually id call that creative, its a nice way for throwing off the audience.

As long as you're the kind of person who falls over and then shouts, "I did that on purpose!"

No one seriously believes that they deliberately made elves ugly and overly sexual. This is not the kind of subversion we've seen from Larian.
Posted By: Plumpbiscuit

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 18/09/16 12:38 PM

If it was up to me I would ban SJWs from using the internet because their stupidity is frankly frightening. This is an alpha, anything is subjective to change. You are free to change characters and there needs to be a default state, so this is a non-issue. If you don't like x way of portrayal then change it so that you don't see it, simple solution.

But no, SJWs got to ruin the game for everybody else and post their snivelling nonsense.
Posted By: dlux

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 18/09/16 12:40 PM

Oh god, here we go again....
Posted By: Sordak

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 18/09/16 12:49 PM

Originally Posted by Ayvah
Not everyone has the time to be constantly making posts in this forum. There are plenty of other newbies who have made a single post over the last few days. It hasn't even been 24 hours yet.


If it quacks like a duck.
Ive seen this type plentifull and thus i wont give the OP the benefit of the doubt.
also if the first post you make without having participated at all is about some real world grievance that you want to shove onto this game then i am not exactly inclined to listen to what you have to say.

Originally Posted by Ayvah
I seriously don't understand what he means by "softcore porn".


Softcore porn is known for having terrible plotlines. Just like Bioware RPGs.

Originally Posted by Ayvah
Sex, particularly in the first game, was treated as a conquest.


So what, sex in many ways is a conquest. Its seen as that by many people.
Not all sex is built on relationships and honestly not all relationships are founded on love or simmilar things. And seriously you havent ever seen sex beeing treated as something to earn? Like it or not that very much is also a reality in this world.
Portraying that isnt sexist, it fits the world they were creating.
Its not a particulary compelling thing ´compared to story driven romance but then again they also had a far smaller budget back then.

Originally Posted by Ayvah

No one seriously believes that they deliberately made elves ugly and overly sexual. This is not the kind of subversion we've seen from Larian.


Realy not? I mean Larian games had a skeleton with lipstick on it which in my opinion is exactly that thing.
I do agree that right now Original Sin 2 could use more attractive faces especialy for human characters, right now they basically did the reverse of Original Sin 1 where you could not make your character look anything else than a movie star (which given what that game was it actually fit the theme) with the NPCs even comment on that fact.

But that doesnt mean that its a bad thing to have such a striking differentiation in style for one character.
I for one am fairly sure the general aesthetic weirdness of the elves is done on purpose.
I dont think the designers just "forogt" to give them human proportions.
Posted By: Dexord

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 18/09/16 12:52 PM

Originally Posted by Sordak

As ive pointed out before: history, bareley covered warriors are pretty common with tribal societies and to me, this does not interfere with the believeability of the setting at all.


However i think that is not the same issue here: Elves look like elves do in this setting, the female elves dont look any less covered than the male elves, as such it is quite easy to deduce that it is simply how elves dress in this setting and how they go to battle.


could a reason why the elves (male & female) have such revealing armor and that its made out of leaves and wood (light,but durable material) aside that its how they dress, that they are a race who favors combat mobility, at least that is what i get out from their armor designs, that they are a swift moving race that favours mobility in all forms of combat, be it magic or normal fighting with swords.

Posted By: vometia

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 18/09/16 12:53 PM

Originally Posted by Hassat Hunter
EDIT: Also congrats on failing to see the difference between female skin and "I just talked to you for 5 minutes, LET's BANG"... that's what BioWare's softporn thing is all about, NPC's who are total sluts throwing themselves before the player.

Although I don't really agree with you about Bioware for the most part (and yeah, I am a bit fangirly about Bioware with the obvious exception of ME3's ending, but let's not go there) I had to laugh at Liara's speech about "we Asari aren't at all promiscuous but sex and we believe in other stuff and y'know, let's just have sex. Sex. Right now." It all got quite bizarre when Kaidan then came and had a go at me, and I was left wondering what just happened because the last thing I remembered doing was trying not to be killed by a bunch of geth.
Posted By: Hassat Hunter

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 18/09/16 01:03 PM

I remember leaving Liara for last in ME1. So after saving her she had a lot of conversation.

And despite my utmost best and picking any and all "I don't care about you that way" options, Sheppard shagged her. Totally unavoidable. Like... what the hell BioWare?
Posted By: Ayvah

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 18/09/16 01:37 PM

Originally Posted by Sordak
So what, sex in many ways is a conquest. Its seen as that by many people.

And those people are sexist.

Witcher 3 also has casual sex. But sex isn't presented as a reward or a victory. It's presented as something that two adults do when they feel sexually attracted to each other.

Originally Posted by Sordak
Original Sin 1 where you could not make your character look anything else than a movie star

If you think that D:OS characters were attractive, then I don't even know where to start. D:OS2 has room for improvement, but some of the faces look good. D:OS faces looked outright terrible.
Posted By: Ayvah

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 18/09/16 01:50 PM

Originally Posted by Sordak
Softcore porn is known for having terrible plotlines. Just like Bioware RPGs.

Good point. Who doesn't relate to that? Softcore porn always has such terrible plotlines. When I'm in the mood for a good story, I like to sit down in front of some hardcore porn. They really understand the importance of good storytelling.
Posted By: vometia

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 18/09/16 02:18 PM

Originally Posted by Ayvah
D:OS faces looked outright terrible.

I actually quite liked them. Well, some of them. I suppose they're pretty standard fare, really. And then there's custom faces, something that is always a bit hit-and-miss: I was happy with my Oblivion character but many people thought it just had built-in fugly; and Skyrim was kind of the other way round where some people had a lot of success and I didn't. Then there was Mass Effect and Dragon Age Oranges where it seemed hard to make one's own character looks distinctly different from the basic model.

Fortunately, the couple of D:OS's faces I used worked well enough for me. DOSII's are okay but I hope that in due course they provide a bit more choice. And more shoes.

Originally Posted by Ayvah
Originally Posted by Sordak
Softcore porn is known for having terrible plotlines. Just like Bioware RPGs.

Good point. Who doesn't relate to that? Softcore porn always has such terrible plotlines. When I'm in the mood for a good story, I like to sit down in front of some hardcore porn. They really understand the importance of good storytelling.

It took me a moment to realise that this may be slightly facetious. My misspent youth was mostly spent down the pub rather than watching dodgy videos, sadly.
Posted By: Dark_Ansem

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 18/09/16 02:42 PM

I think the OP is a troll and got exactly what was wanted.
Posted By: Sordak

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 18/09/16 03:35 PM

Originally Posted by Ayvah
Originally Posted by Sordak
So what, sex in many ways is a conquest. Its seen as that by many people.

And those people are sexist.



not realy they arent.

Originally Posted by Ayvah
If you think that D:OS characters were attractive, then I don't even know where to start.


symmetrical angular faces and muscular physique are considered attractive by many people.
tastes are different and such.
Original Sin 2s faces in general tend to be more... universally unattractive, having wrinkles, irregularities and whatnot.
Not that such faces shouldnt exist, you can make interresting characters with that.

Just not... only such faces.

Which incidently is another one of my criticisms of bioware games: they make their characters ugly on purpose.

Originally Posted by Ayvah
They really understand the importance of good storytelling.


Hardcore porn understand the importance of storytelling. It understands that porn doesnt need any.
Posted By: 4verse

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 18/09/16 03:38 PM

Originally Posted by Hassat Hunter
I guess no one noticed the OPs "You can say all you want about how the men are dressed the same for the elves, but it’s not equivalent in any way." right, or you could understand my 'here we go again'.

The OP basically outright stated the same is true for males, and they discard that since instead of actual discussion or thinking this is bad they need to feel victimnised. And just throwing away those good legit reasons why there is no victimisation.

Going all "everyone else looks the same, but let's ignore that and go all the way into my boohoo" is not exactly going to win my sympathy. It's making you look like someone without a clue.



Pretty much this. Women and men are depicted in the same way but women are discriminated against nonetheless. If that is not a sexist point of view I dont know what else is.
Posted By: Stunami

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 18/09/16 05:29 PM

A race of beings is presented evenly in their attire and it's somehow still offensive to some people.

I mean forget that they're a bunch of monstrous cannibals, forget that their people were enslaved by the lizards. No it's the clothing, specifically the clothing of the females which is the exact same levels of revealing as the males, that's then problem.

Get over yourself.
Posted By: Vulpes Absurda

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 18/09/16 06:12 PM

Originally Posted by vometia
I can't say I'm bothered by it: I actually think it's a pretty interesting design. What does bother me is when people talk about women gamers and what offends us rather than with us. Not saying that's the case here, but I have seen it happen and have felt almost chastised for speaking up when there's a man to speak on my behalf.


I very much agree with your point here. I've seen on various occasions men "standing up for women" by sort of just going on and on about something while multiple women are trying to discus something else entirely. A lot of the discussion of Bayonetta 2 was plagued by this. Not that I think Beyonetta is perfect but that's a whole other discussion.

And while I acknowledge that my first post did speak for several women I know I do not wish to claim that women are all in agreement on the subject or that I speak for anyone other then those that I do know and even then I intend to try my best to not use them as a prop for my own arguments.

Originally Posted by mesmerizedish

Like, does the elf appearance perpetuate some great social ill? I'm pretty certain that, in this specific case, the answer is no. But that doesn't invalidate any discomfort it may cause someone.


I would argue that it does. It's hardly Monster Monpiece but this sort of thing very much drives people away from the game and into media where they feel either less objectified or less infantilized by the frankly childish (in my view at the very least) way the elves are portrayed here. And while it might not be a "Great" social ill I feel it very much plays into one

Now onto some more general points:

"Something something The Witcher 3!"

I don't really have any major issues with The Witcher 3 from what I've seen and played of it. I would even say it's an example of what Vometia was talking about. It certainly does better then the first one with it's collectable sex cards. I will note that I know a few people who refused to buy The Witcher 3 because of how gross they found that aspect of The Witcher.

"If it wasn't the first thing you see in the game this would be fine!"

This one is as much a criticism of my own post as anything so sorry if it sounds like I'm being snarky at the expense of others. But really the issue here is that it is the only option. And here's the thing, there's really no way that this makes sense in the first place because no culture is going to evolve such a way that they will refuse to wear armor. Not after the first time they watch someone get sliced in half while trying their best to look like a Rob Liefeld painting. " I refuse to wear armor to honor the tree-oh I'm dead. The trees kinda failed me here" So the only thing trying to justify this does is undermine the serious side of the fiction by calling out how absurd it all is. And again, as an option I would have less of an issue with this sort of thing. I'm not thrilled with the way the enchanters are dressed for the humans and dwarfs. But it's one option out of many so I'm okay-ish with it being there even if it's more then a bit extreme. But the elves here are being reduced to nothing but how sexulised they are and that is a big issue.

Originally Posted by Ayvah
Originally Posted by Sordak
Softcore porn is known for having terrible plotlines. Just like Bioware RPGs.

Good point. Who doesn't relate to that? Softcore porn always has such terrible plotlines. When I'm in the mood for a good story, I like to sit down in front of some hardcore porn. They really understand the importance of good storytelling.


I don't have anything to add to this I just thought it was funny.
Posted By: Sordak

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 18/09/16 06:52 PM

speaking of childish: calling things gross doesnt make you sound particulary mature.
Especialy not while you trample on an aritsts work declaring it infantile because it does not specifically cater to you.

What do you mean no other option? You can choose not to play elves.
No culture would evolve to not wear armor? Google Gaesetae. Or just look at the Zulu.

Please dont justify your aversion to this particular artstyle with History because you obviously dont know what you are talking about.

Just admit that you dont like it because of your agenda and get on with your life.
Posted By: ChapsDungaroo

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 18/09/16 08:15 PM

Wait...the elves are half-naked? And now people are sexualizing them?

I'm missing out. I chose the elf because they're cannibals. Clearly I'm paying attention to the wrong things when I choose a character to play.
Posted By: Wellzy4eva

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 18/09/16 10:07 PM

This escalated quickly.

The funny thing is, going by the very first line and the screenshot I can see some developer going 'fine, we'll make the Red Prince the first character' and moving onto the next topic.
Posted By: Yegodz

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 18/09/16 10:11 PM

Ok, someone literally created a puppet account to spam this SJW nonsense here.
Posted By: Ayvah

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 18/09/16 11:10 PM

Originally Posted by Sordak
Originally Posted by Ayvah
Originally Posted by Sordak
So what, sex in many ways is a conquest. Its seen as that by many people.

And those people are sexist.
not realy they arent.

Let me be clear first of all. There is nothing wrong with depicting a sexist setting.

Schindler's List was set in Nazi Germany. That doesn't mean that the film is pro-Nazi. What matters is how that setting is presented and portrayed. If you're going to make a film (or game) about Nazis, then you have to be mindful that this is a real issue that has affected real people, and so you need to carefully consider how you can navigate that. (In the case of Witcher, it actually covered similar themes by presenting the oppression of non-humans and Mages.)

Americans understandably felt uncomfortable that Witcher 3 didn't represent American ethnic minorities, as they live in a culture where those minorities have gotten the short end of the stick. What those critics forgot is that the game was made by European Polish people (an oppressed European ethnic minority) about their own culture. Americans need to take responsibility for their own lack of diversity in media, and not push that responsibility onto a Polish studio expressing their own diversity.

Likewise, any artwork has to be mindful that sexism is a real (and global) issue, and an issue that the fantasy genre has historically handled poorly.

There's nothing wrong with having people in your setting that view sex as conquest. There's nothing wrong with having a race that views nudity as a fundamental part of their culture. But you need to be mindful of how it's presented in the context of the broader culture in which the game is presented.

As for the specific case of "sex as conquest". For a person to view sex as conquest, they have to view sex as something to be taken, and not as something to be shared. They have to view their sexual partner as an opponent to be defeated. This is fundamentally an unequal relationship.

This is not unique to men. There are women who treat sex as a conquest too, and those women are no better.
Posted By: Yegodz

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 19/09/16 12:14 AM

Originally Posted by Ayvah
Originally Posted by Sordak
Originally Posted by Ayvah
Originally Posted by Sordak
So what, sex in many ways is a conquest. Its seen as that by many people.

And those people are sexist.
not realy they arent.

Let me be clear first of all. There is nothing wrong with depicting a sexist setting.

Schindler's List was set in Nazi Germany. That doesn't mean that the film is pro-Nazi. What matters is how that setting is presented and portrayed. If you're going to make a film (or game) about Nazis, then you have to be mindful that this is a real issue that has affected real people, and so you need to carefully consider how you can navigate that. (In the case of Witcher, it actually covered similar themes by presenting the oppression of non-humans and Mages.)

Americans understandably felt uncomfortable that Witcher 3 didn't represent American ethnic minorities, as they live in a culture where those minorities have gotten the short end of the stick. What those critics forgot is that the game was made by European Polish people (an oppressed European ethnic minority) about their own culture. Americans need to take responsibility for their own lack of diversity in media, and not push that responsibility onto a Polish studio expressing their own diversity.

Likewise, any artwork has to be mindful that sexism is a real (and global) issue, and an issue that the fantasy genre has historically handled poorly.

There's nothing wrong with having people in your setting that view sex as conquest. There's nothing wrong with having a race that views nudity as a fundamental part of their culture. But you need to be mindful of how it's presented in the context of the broader culture in which the game is presented.

As for the specific case of "sex as conquest". For a person to view sex as conquest, they have to view sex as something to be taken, and not as something to be shared. They have to view their sexual partner as an opponent to be defeated. This is fundamentally an unequal relationship.

This is not unique to men. There are women who treat sex as a conquest too, and those women are no better.


Or they can ignore this obvious SJW attack and just create the game they want and not worry about the safe space groups who like to label anything they do not like as sexist, racist, whateverist to try and bully those into their stupid identity politics.
Posted By: mesmerizedish

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 19/09/16 12:26 AM

Originally Posted by Yegodz
Or they can ignore this obvious SJW attack and just create the game they want and not worry about the safe space groups who like to label anything they do not like as sexist, racist, whateverist to try and bully those into their stupid identity politics.


Or you can understand that your perspective is not the only one that matters, that other people also have money to spend, and that asking for basic human decency isn't radical illuminati bullying.

But I'm not holding my breath.
Posted By: Amethyst

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 19/09/16 12:35 AM

All i have to say to OP is.

I expected more lizard boobs. This game is clearly not sexualized enough and have you seen their body? It's so... non top model like... man... at least i can run around naked as lizards.

/s

On a serious note, i did a naked run. Works pretty well as enchanter, who needs armor anyway
Posted By: Yegodz

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 19/09/16 12:52 AM

Originally Posted by mesmerizedish
Originally Posted by Yegodz
Or they can ignore this obvious SJW attack and just create the game they want and not worry about the safe space groups who like to label anything they do not like as sexist, racist, whateverist to try and bully those into their stupid identity politics.


Or you can understand that your perspective is not the only one that matters, that other people also have money to spend, and that asking for basic human decency isn't radical illuminati bullying.

But I'm not holding my breath.


This isn't about other peoples perspectives, this is about shoving identity politics into other peoples hobbies and nothing more. The majority of the perpetually offended do not even consume what they complain about, they just do not want others to enjoy it.
Posted By: Ayvah

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 19/09/16 04:17 AM

Originally Posted by Yegodz
This isn't about other peoples perspectives, this is about shoving identity politics into other peoples hobbies and nothing more. The majority of the perpetually offended do not even consume what they complain about, they just do not want others to enjoy it.

I can't speak for everyone, but I've been in this forum for long enough and I've actively participated with ideas and suggestions since shortly after the kickstarter ended. I also have the Kickstarter badge proving that I've actually paid for the game. If you're so passionate about D:OS2, where have you been?

Feel free to express your opinions, but we all get to participate in the discussion.
Posted By: Ellary

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 19/09/16 04:32 AM

oh gosh..this thread has gotten kinda back and forth. Honestly the OP had a flawed first post and left a bad impression. Tossing in they know females who won't buy the game. One red flag is all it takes to draw in negativity.

I highly doubt this is anyones first PC video game. We all live in 2016 and like it or not. Sex sells. Granted I highly doubt having a deformed elf in woodland armor was Larian's idea of "yeah sexy baby!" I mean.. have you seen their stomach area? *shudders* But seriously. We are gamers, we play games and sometimes they are not exactly what we want. We play them still right? if a game company had to cater to every single consumers needs...games would never release.

@____@ before anyone comes along with "peoples opinions matter" they do at times, but their opinion should also be expressed the proper way. Starting a thread and tossing in about how they spoke to women and they opt out of buying the game. It just doesn't sit well.

hehe. I am going to laugh if Larian changes the default character show and when you try and go over to female elf. A little pop up of Swen appears asking "Are you sure?" click yes "Are you really really sure you can handle this?" hehe. ~♥~ Larian love.
Posted By: Vulpes Absurda

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 19/09/16 04:35 AM

I did actually back the game but for whatever reason the badge has not yet appeared. I went through the process to get it but it hasn't seemed to work. And providing any other proof that I backed it seems rather ill advised for something that really doesn't matter to my criticisms.

As for the lizardmen I kinda dig the designs there and wish the elves had gone more in that direction. I would sort of like there to be some more androgynous options for both genders of the lizardmen but all told I really dig the design and really respect the work that went into it. That sort of thing is hard to pull off and my hats off to the art team for how they did it. I guess some of the poses they have them in are a bit odd but whatever.
Posted By: Ellary

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 19/09/16 04:40 AM

Originally Posted by Vulpes Absurda
I did actually back the game but for whatever reason the badge has not yet appeared. I went through the process to get it but it hasn't seemed to work. And providing any other proof that I backed it seems rather ill advised for something that really doesn't matter to my criticisms.

As for the lizardmen I kinda dig the designs there and wish the elves had gone more in that direction. I would sort of like there to be some more androgynous options for both genders of the lizardmen but all told I really dig the design and really respect the work that went into it. That sort of thing is hard to pull off and my hats off to the art team for how they did it. I guess some of the poses they have them in are a bit odd but whatever.


If the tools and mod support are going to be create. I bet we will see more variations on race models.
Posted By: Vulpes Absurda

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 19/09/16 05:42 AM

I suspect we'll see a mod to normalize armors to some degree but the sort of modeling skill required to match the art in the game, which is quite nice to be sure, means that any major changes are unlikely. Even for a game like Skyrim doesn't see a lot of new models straight up made for it. Most of it is is rejiggered from other models. And what new models their are tend to be to make the game sexier which is fine! If someone wishes to add that to their game more power to them. Mods are great for that. My issue with the elves is this being the default for them in the game.
Posted By: virumor

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 19/09/16 05:58 AM

Sure looks different from how Elves looked in Divine Divinity.
Posted By: vometia

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 19/09/16 05:59 AM

Originally Posted by Vulpes Absurda
I suspect we'll see a mod to normalize armors to some degree but the sort of modeling skill required to match the art in the game, which is quite nice to be sure, means that any major changes are unlikely. Even for a game like Skyrim doesn't see a lot of new models straight up made for it. Most of it is is rejiggered from other models. And what new models their are tend to be to make the game sexier which is fine! If someone wishes to add that to their game more power to them. Mods are great for that. My issue with the elves is this being the default for them in the game.

I dunno, I would've thought Skyrim would've had a lot of new models made for it; I did a number myself, as well as attempts to de-absurdify some of its armour.

I might well have ended up doing so with D:OS too, but couldn't quite get my head around its modding software let alone figuring out how to transfer stuff to and from Blender...
Posted By: Vulpes Absurda

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 19/09/16 06:09 AM

Over the course of five years it's had quite a few in total, compared to the total number of mods made for it however it is relatively low and if I'm not mistaken Skyrim is the single most modded game in history. whereas D:OS never really took off in that regard, so I doubt it will see much in terms of that kind of modding.
But I should have specified that I meant changes to the races themselves. I didn't make that as clear as I should have.
Posted By: tritrium

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 19/09/16 10:09 AM

Originally Posted by Vulpes Absurda
Is this really the first thing you want people to see in the game?

-I dont know? Is there a problem with this character?

Originally Posted by Vulpes Absurda
I have to be honest, I was really excited for this game, but having this be the default state of dress for an entire race of women has murdered my enthusiasm. And I’m not the only one who was disappointed by this rather blatant sexism.

-Thats your problem and the echo-chamber you're surrounded with.
I already know what you are going to say but ill ask anyway:
-What is this blatant sexism you are talking about?
-Who is not the only one? Do you mean the echo-chamber you're in?
-Anecdotes are not evidence.
-Just because in your opinion this is blatant sexism, it doesnt make this blatant sexism.(more on that below)


Originally Posted by Vulpes Absurda
You can say all you want about how the men are dressed the same for the elves, but it’s not equivalent in any way. Women are constantly sexualized or reduced to their anatomy. You can’t hand wave it away by saying it’s their elven culture. A writer had to create that culture and that writer does not exist in a vacuum.

-Now the first line, that is blatant sexism.
If i would change "men" with "women" you would be outraged by the very same sentence you write down here.
That is you literally not giving a shit about how men are portrayed in games. But instead want to make large exceptions of how women are portrayed.
-Women are constantly...reduced to their anatomy..
Are they really? Or is that just your ideolog mind speaking?
The exact same thing can be said about men in games.
But its been already established that you dont give a shit about that.
-The fact of the matter is that nearly everyone on this planet likes attractive people and is attracted to said people. Denying this is simply denying reality.
Games are fantasy, its meant to be fantasy.

Originally Posted by Vulpes Absurda
A few women I have asked about this have been hugely disappointed and have opted to not buy this game or future Larian products. These people have supported Larian for many years, and are disappointed with this choice.

-Who are these women you are referring to?
What data do you have to back up this claim?
To me this all sounds like an attempt to blackmail larian with non-arguments riddled with logical fallacies.
Id recommend larian to focus on the empirical data called: the money, the feedback and take their conclusions from that. Not from some clear ideolog that cant back up anything he/she claims with empirical evidence.

Originally Posted by Vulpes Absurda
The only reason you’re hearing from me and not them is that this is so standard it wasn’t worth their time to write something like this out and then be told by commenters that they’re are being some sort of prude or that “The game is for adults and some people like this stuff and you’re just being an social jusblah blah blah”

-What you are saying here is the following:
They didnt care much about the game to begin with, cant be bothered voicing their opinion because of the former and therefore arent worth considdering as valid concerns when it comes to larian to begin with.
And most importantly, that they cant deal with dissenting opinions on this.
-Yeah, people do call you out on your comments because theyre bullshit. Any rational thinking person can see the ridicilousness in your claims and the people that you are parroting, the hypocrisy in it and the clear ideolog mindset behind it and the fact you cant back up anything of this with empirical evidence when pressed on the matter further works against your premise.

Originally Posted by Vulpes Absurda
And here’s the thing, I don’t really care if this sort of absurd outfit is an option.

-Then what is the problem to begin with?
Blatant sexism is blatant sexism, its not a matter of opinion when it comes to that. It either is or it isnt period.

Originally Posted by Vulpes Absurda
I think the elves look kinda gross in a living beef jerky plant kinda way but I’m guessing that’s the point and that’s fine.

-Thats just your opinion, so again, how can u claim its clear blatant sexism whilst at the same time claim you dont care about it and dont really like the look to begin with?
Contradictions, contradictions everywhere as expected.
Seems more likely you simply dont like the look of the character and try to enforce a change by parroting your peer bullshit to it to attempt to gain leverage over larian.
Again, i believe, thats called attempt to blackmail.

Originally Posted by Vulpes Absurda
I even get why you would want to show that off. But it needs to be done in a way that isn’t also reusing tired bikini armour and seductive sorceress tropes.

-Subjective

Originally Posted by Vulpes Absurda
Because when you do that, that is the only thing that stands out. So it’s not just a failure in the way it can alienate roughly half the population of the planet, but an artistic one as well.

-Again, purely subjective and frankly says a lot more about you then anything else.
Not only is it a failure on your end to display why this is objectively bad but also the claim this can alienate half the population on the planet is utterly ridicilous. Where is your evidence for this? Where is your evidence to even remotely considder taking this position to begin with?
Anyone that has female friends, family or spouses that do not give a shit about this and actually like it disproves this claim immediatly.
-"but an artistic one as well" Please enlighten me with how your subjective opinion on someone elses artistic skills & vision is the only valid one in these dark ages of rampant sexism everywhere!

Originally Posted by Vulpes Absurda
I hope you take these thoughts into consideration.

-I havent seen a single reason for larian to take your thoughts and the people u claim to represent in consideration. If anything theres nothing but reasons to NOT to do so. You already admitted they dont really care for the game anyway.

Originally Posted by Vulpes Absurda
I know you did something similar with the boxart for the previous game

-Yeah and thats why you are here isnt it?

Originally Posted by Vulpes Absurda
and while I still had issues with that game's presentation of women your willingness to make changes was a big part of why I wanted to give you a chance with this one

-Yes because the entire world needs to cater to YOU, everyone needs to take in consideration YOUR views, YOUR ideas, YOUR perception of the world, YOUR vision,...
Its all about YOU. The self entitlement is beyond the moon at this point. Let me know when you swing back around and reach the earth again.

Originally Posted by Vulpes Absurda
and backed the kickstarter for two. I am disappointed to see that you have not learned from past mistakes.

(please forgive me for the sarcasm here)
-"All hail the king/queen" Please everyone, kneel for her/his highness as he/she graces us with his/her presence and allows us to create and enjoy this ga..
OH wait, not learned from past mistakes?
Whats that? changes been made to accomodate YOUR opinion and you're still not happy?
What a surprise. This is exactly why nobody needs to cater to you, you are never happy, never content.
You are part of a group that displays the most self-entitled
mentality i have ever seen in my entire life.

Originally Posted by Vulpes Absurda
Thank you for your time, and I hope you receive this in the spirit in which it is intended.

-I certainly did and did adress your points seriously.
Forgive me for the sarcasm at the end, i really could not go about it any other way then that.

You know what you should do? A few things:
1. Make your own game
2. Write your own stories
3. Read some orwell
4. Read some marx
5. Come to the conclusion that you are profoundly offensive, cultural marxism is utterly ridicilous, your ideas are insanely regressive and that you are not the center of the universe.

Thank you very much and i hope you will be able to escape the brainwashing that you have been exposed to by doing the 5 simple things i laid out to help you.
Posted By: kingcrowley

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 20/09/16 12:31 AM

Nice.
Posted By: LordCrash

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 20/09/16 12:46 AM

Strong, self-confident and mature women embrace their sexuality and don't repel it. The very same women can be naked, even in public, and don't feel bad about it, be ashamed about it, or feel objectified.

Sexuality is not bad. Being sexy is not bad. Don't be intimidated by displays of sexuality. That's actually something that makes the world a better, more enjoyable place.

And being naked and being sexy are not the same thing. Displays of naked people are not necessarily sexist, actually only in very rare instances with specific violent or abusive context they are. In most cases, it's just a display of human nakedness, nothing more. A display of nature.

Elves are creatures of nature. Why shouldn't they be naked or half naked? And if they want: Why shouldn't they be sexy?

Really, don't just see the bad in everything, the failure, the insult, the objection. Just enjoy entertainment for what it is, a means to make our lives a bit more fun and light, or let it just be and do something else with your life. But please, don't spoil the fun for everybody else just because you see wolves and ghosts everywhere and because you can't bear the sight of a halfly naked female (elven) being.

Btw I was naked in the sauna yesterday and nobody cared. Nobody called me sexist. People watched my body and I watched theirs and everything was fine, just like it should be. Life is often pretty simple as long as you don't make it complicated for yourself... wink
Posted By: Surrealialis

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 30/09/16 03:27 AM

My wife plays this game with me. in D:OS she was very impressed that her female tank character's armor actually looked like female tank characters armor.
Elves unfortunately ruin that good will. Even if both the male and the female do it.
TBH, my desire to play the elf race is tempered by the fact that their armor design is ugly to me.
But, I completely understand why the lack of clothing/presentation is bothering female players. If it was me, I would change the way their armor works and make it more substantial anyways.
Larian should atleast take into account the fact that bikini armor was the dumbest thing ever drawn on any fantasy character irregardless of sexist intentions.
All they need to do is a tight fitting bark skin like look to all the elves skimpy bits.

The simple fact that it is generating so much negative feedback, sexist or not, should be enough reason to change the 3D models. Even a slight change will make a huge difference to the community - the professional and public presentation and the overall art design. Larian has done elves well in the past - no need to change that now.
Posted By: Surrealialis

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 30/09/16 03:31 AM

Originally Posted by LordCrash
Strong, self-confident and mature women embrace their sexuality and don't repel it. The very same women can be naked, even in public, and don't feel bad about it, be ashamed about it, or feel objectified.

Btw I was naked in the sauna yesterday and nobody cared. Nobody called me sexist. People watched my body and I watched theirs and everything was fine, just like it should be. Life is often pretty simple as long as you don't make it complicated for yourself... wink


From how mature and well put together your posts have been LordCrash, I have to say I'm a little disappointed to read this from you. It's not offensive, but it certainly isn't true. The poor treatment of women in video games and gamer culture is well documented fact and not in any way up for debate by intelligent people.
Posted By: Surrealialis

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 30/09/16 03:33 AM

Originally Posted by tritrium
Originally Posted by Vulpes Absurda
Is this really the first thing you want people to see in the game?

-I dont know? Is there a problem with this character?

Originally Posted by Vulpes Absurda
I have to be honest, I was really excited for this game, but having this be the default state of dress for an entire race of women has murdered my enthusiasm. And I’m not the only one who was disappointed by this rather blatant sexism.

-Thats your problem and the echo-chamber you're surrounded with.
I already know what you are going to say but ill ask anyway:
-What is this blatant sexism you are talking about?
-Who is not the only one? Do you mean the echo-chamber you're in?
-Anecdotes are not evidence.
-Just because in your opinion this is blatant sexism, it doesnt make this blatant sexism.(more on that below)


Originally Posted by Vulpes Absurda
You can say all you want about how the men are dressed the same for the elves, but it’s not equivalent in any way. Women are constantly sexualized or reduced to their anatomy. You can’t hand wave it away by saying it’s their elven culture. A writer had to create that culture and that writer does not exist in a vacuum.

-Now the first line, that is blatant sexism.
If i would change "men" with "women" you would be outraged by the very same sentence you write down here.
That is you literally not giving a shit about how men are portrayed in games. But instead want to make large exceptions of how women are portrayed.
-Women are constantly...reduced to their anatomy..
Are they really? Or is that just your ideolog mind speaking?
The exact same thing can be said about men in games.
But its been already established that you dont give a shit about that.
-The fact of the matter is that nearly everyone on this planet likes attractive people and is attracted to said people. Denying this is simply denying reality.
Games are fantasy, its meant to be fantasy.

Originally Posted by Vulpes Absurda
A few women I have asked about this have been hugely disappointed and have opted to not buy this game or future Larian products. These people have supported Larian for many years, and are disappointed with this choice.

-Who are these women you are referring to?
What data do you have to back up this claim?
To me this all sounds like an attempt to blackmail larian with non-arguments riddled with logical fallacies.
Id recommend larian to focus on the empirical data called: the money, the feedback and take their conclusions from that. Not from some clear ideolog that cant back up anything he/she claims with empirical evidence.

Originally Posted by Vulpes Absurda
The only reason you’re hearing from me and not them is that this is so standard it wasn’t worth their time to write something like this out and then be told by commenters that they’re are being some sort of prude or that “The game is for adults and some people like this stuff and you’re just being an social jusblah blah blah”

-What you are saying here is the following:
They didnt care much about the game to begin with, cant be bothered voicing their opinion because of the former and therefore arent worth considdering as valid concerns when it comes to larian to begin with.
And most importantly, that they cant deal with dissenting opinions on this.
-Yeah, people do call you out on your comments because theyre bullshit. Any rational thinking person can see the ridicilousness in your claims and the people that you are parroting, the hypocrisy in it and the clear ideolog mindset behind it and the fact you cant back up anything of this with empirical evidence when pressed on the matter further works against your premise.

Originally Posted by Vulpes Absurda
And here’s the thing, I don’t really care if this sort of absurd outfit is an option.

-Then what is the problem to begin with?
Blatant sexism is blatant sexism, its not a matter of opinion when it comes to that. It either is or it isnt period.

Originally Posted by Vulpes Absurda
I think the elves look kinda gross in a living beef jerky plant kinda way but I’m guessing that’s the point and that’s fine.

-Thats just your opinion, so again, how can u claim its clear blatant sexism whilst at the same time claim you dont care about it and dont really like the look to begin with?
Contradictions, contradictions everywhere as expected.
Seems more likely you simply dont like the look of the character and try to enforce a change by parroting your peer bullshit to it to attempt to gain leverage over larian.
Again, i believe, thats called attempt to blackmail.

Originally Posted by Vulpes Absurda
I even get why you would want to show that off. But it needs to be done in a way that isn’t also reusing tired bikini armour and seductive sorceress tropes.

-Subjective

Originally Posted by Vulpes Absurda
Because when you do that, that is the only thing that stands out. So it’s not just a failure in the way it can alienate roughly half the population of the planet, but an artistic one as well.

-Again, purely subjective and frankly says a lot more about you then anything else.
Not only is it a failure on your end to display why this is objectively bad but also the claim this can alienate half the population on the planet is utterly ridicilous. Where is your evidence for this? Where is your evidence to even remotely considder taking this position to begin with?
Anyone that has female friends, family or spouses that do not give a shit about this and actually like it disproves this claim immediatly.
-"but an artistic one as well" Please enlighten me with how your subjective opinion on someone elses artistic skills & vision is the only valid one in these dark ages of rampant sexism everywhere!

Originally Posted by Vulpes Absurda
I hope you take these thoughts into consideration.

-I havent seen a single reason for larian to take your thoughts and the people u claim to represent in consideration. If anything theres nothing but reasons to NOT to do so. You already admitted they dont really care for the game anyway.

Originally Posted by Vulpes Absurda
I know you did something similar with the boxart for the previous game

-Yeah and thats why you are here isnt it?

Originally Posted by Vulpes Absurda
and while I still had issues with that game's presentation of women your willingness to make changes was a big part of why I wanted to give you a chance with this one

-Yes because the entire world needs to cater to YOU, everyone needs to take in consideration YOUR views, YOUR ideas, YOUR perception of the world, YOUR vision,...
Its all about YOU. The self entitlement is beyond the moon at this point. Let me know when you swing back around and reach the earth again.

Originally Posted by Vulpes Absurda
and backed the kickstarter for two. I am disappointed to see that you have not learned from past mistakes.

(please forgive me for the sarcasm here)
-"All hail the king/queen" Please everyone, kneel for her/his highness as he/she graces us with his/her presence and allows us to create and enjoy this ga..
OH wait, not learned from past mistakes?
Whats that? changes been made to accomodate YOUR opinion and you're still not happy?
What a surprise. This is exactly why nobody needs to cater to you, you are never happy, never content.
You are part of a group that displays the most self-entitled
mentality i have ever seen in my entire life.

Originally Posted by Vulpes Absurda
Thank you for your time, and I hope you receive this in the spirit in which it is intended.

-I certainly did and did adress your points seriously.
Forgive me for the sarcasm at the end, i really could not go about it any other way then that.

You know what you should do? A few things:
1. Make your own game
2. Write your own stories
3. Read some orwell
4. Read some marx
5. Come to the conclusion that you are profoundly offensive, cultural marxism is utterly ridicilous, your ideas are insanely regressive and that you are not the center of the universe.

Thank you very much and i hope you will be able to escape the brainwashing that you have been exposed to by doing the 5 simple things i laid out to help you.


Lol at this guy and his second post in the forums.
nice troll bro. Thanks for the rant.
Posted By: aj0413

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 30/09/16 03:42 AM

Well, his rant (as entertaining as any rant is) did in fact make valid points smirk
Posted By: SacredDark

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 30/09/16 11:37 AM

All i got from this topic is that people are too sensitive, get a grip.


I just don't understand how people that call themselves gamers can be so easily put off from playing such an amazing game.

The guys could be naked with 20 inch penises and id still enjoy the game, seriously.
Posted By: cae37

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 30/09/16 02:15 PM

Originally Posted by LordCrash
Strong, self-confident and mature women embrace their sexuality and don't repel it. The very same women can be naked, even in public, and don't feel bad about it, be ashamed about it, or feel objectified.

Sexuality is not bad. Being sexy is not bad. Don't be intimidated by displays of sexuality. That's actually something that makes the world a better, more enjoyable place.

And being naked and being sexy are not the same thing. Displays of naked people are not necessarily sexist, actually only in very rare instances with specific violent or abusive context they are. In most cases, it's just a display of human nakedness, nothing more. A display of nature.

Elves are creatures of nature. Why shouldn't they be naked or half naked? And if they want: Why shouldn't they be sexy?

Really, don't just see the bad in everything, the failure, the insult, the objection. Just enjoy entertainment for what it is, a means to make our lives a bit more fun and light, or let it just be and do something else with your life. But please, don't spoil the fun for everybody else just because you see wolves and ghosts everywhere and because you can't bear the sight of a halfly naked female (elven) being.

Btw I was naked in the sauna yesterday and nobody cared. Nobody called me sexist. People watched my body and I watched theirs and everything was fine, just like it should be. Life is often pretty simple as long as you don't make it complicated for yourself... wink


Even though this is a really good point to bring up, that we shouldn't shame sexiness or sexuality, the problem with sexiness in the videogame industry is that it's used by devs to make female characters sexually appealing to a target straight male audience. It has been used as a cheap tactic to get male gamers into a game through sexual appeal.

The female heroes who fall under this category, and there are many who do, are essentially sex objects for the male consumer to enjoy rather than compelling characters we can invest ourselves in, like most male heroes. This is why so many people speak up against it, we want to see more variety in the portrayal of female characters.

This does not mean eliminating sexy female characters forever, it means making them less dominant to make room for different kinds of female characters. Characters who don't fall under the bikini chainmail armor stereotype.
Posted By: SlamPow

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 30/09/16 02:25 PM

Originally Posted by cae37
Originally Posted by LordCrash
Strong, self-confident and mature women embrace their sexuality and don't repel it. The very same women can be naked, even in public, and don't feel bad about it, be ashamed about it, or feel objectified.

Sexuality is not bad. Being sexy is not bad. Don't be intimidated by displays of sexuality. That's actually something that makes the world a better, more enjoyable place.

And being naked and being sexy are not the same thing. Displays of naked people are not necessarily sexist, actually only in very rare instances with specific violent or abusive context they are. In most cases, it's just a display of human nakedness, nothing more. A display of nature.

Elves are creatures of nature. Why shouldn't they be naked or half naked? And if they want: Why shouldn't they be sexy?

Really, don't just see the bad in everything, the failure, the insult, the objection. Just enjoy entertainment for what it is, a means to make our lives a bit more fun and light, or let it just be and do something else with your life. But please, don't spoil the fun for everybody else just because you see wolves and ghosts everywhere and because you can't bear the sight of a halfly naked female (elven) being.

Btw I was naked in the sauna yesterday and nobody cared. Nobody called me sexist. People watched my body and I watched theirs and everything was fine, just like it should be. Life is often pretty simple as long as you don't make it complicated for yourself... wink


Even though this is a really good point to bring up, that we shouldn't shame sexiness or sexuality, the problem with sexiness in the videogame industry is that it's used by devs to make female characters sexually appealing to a target straight male audience. It has been used as a cheap tactic to get male gamers into a game through sexual appeal.

The female heroes who fall under this category, and there are many who do, are essentially sex objects for the male consumer to enjoy rather than compelling characters we can invest ourselves in, like most male heroes. This is why so many people speak up against it, we want to see more variety in the portrayal of female characters.

This does not mean eliminating sexy female characters forever, it means making them less dominant to make room for different kinds of female characters. Characters who don't fall under the bikini chainmail armor stereotype.


This was very thoughtfully worded and well put. However, is the pose in the character screen really so... Influential? Impactful? I would hope that Lhose and Sebille's characters speak volumes more about how the game treats females than how they stand in the character creation screen.
Posted By: Sordak

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 30/09/16 02:33 PM

we already have two of these threads does this one need to be resurrected aswell?
Posted By: KhorneZerker

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 30/09/16 05:06 PM

Do they grow these SJW nutcases in a greenhouse or something?
I swear there's a new one here everyday.
Posted By: Skallewag

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 30/09/16 11:25 PM

Originally Posted by cae37
This does not mean eliminating sexy female characters forever, it means making them less dominant to make room for different kinds of female characters. Characters who don't fall under the bikini chainmail armor stereotype.


And here you are yet again trying to make the same incredibly ignorant point.

Why does the market need to make more room for something that already exists and has existed for a long time? Both games that do and do not include sexual undertones exist. They also exist in proportion to what the market demands. What about this do you not understand?

Do you make this retarded argument for any other type of medium or just for games?
There should be fewer romance novels published so there is more room for some other genre. There should be fewer horror movies produced so that there can be more of your favourite type of movie. There should be less modern art on display in museums so your favorite type of art is shown instead.

The games we currently have are here because of what hundreds of millions of people have previously bought. People buy what they like, thus people in general like an element of naked bodies in games.
Don't buy those games if you do not like them. Go gather all your friends and support other types of games if you want more of them, go gather a million people who agree with you and behave in that way with their wallet and you will have an impact on what is released on the market.
Posted By: Ayvah

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 30/09/16 11:27 PM

I'll just also point out an observation that custom characters are given second class treatment. The game explicitly tells you to try the pregen characters. While both male and female elves get the same skimpy costumes, the only pregen elf character happens to be a female. The result is that there is no pregen skimpy male to provide a contrast to Sebille.

I'm not accusing Larian of anything deliberate, but no one should be surprised if this makes a bad first impression.
Posted By: Skallewag

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 30/09/16 11:28 PM

Originally Posted by KhorneZerker
Do they grow these SJW nutcases in a greenhouse or something?
I swear there's a new one here everyday.


Have you checked college campuses recently? Thats where they breed them. Its not all that strange when you think about it. Kids learn what they are taught, and if an ideologue professor fills their heads with SJW nonsense instead of critical thinking skills and some academically usefull rigor, they are going to end up like this.
Posted By: Plumpbiscuit

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 01/10/16 08:32 AM

I wonder how an SJW would react if you told them women wear tight, skin-showing wetsuits when they go swimming or deep-sea diving, and have been for over 100 years now? Do you think they will be "triggered" then demand society change to their own ignorance?
Posted By: SupaMonkey

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 01/10/16 10:03 AM

I'm reminded of the South Park episode where they had to put a big black censored rectangle over the prophet mohammed because of death threats.

I hope Larian ignores this thread. Every alpha/beta i've been in that waters down the content and makes the developers move from their original ideas always ends up with a worse final game.

I quite like the semi naked elves.
Posted By: aj0413

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 01/10/16 04:01 PM

You know something you never see? The people making issues of female characters bringing up the same problems mirrored in male characters? What if I feel bad that male hero stereotypes perpetuate the idea that I should have six packs and be of a certain height? Or that I have to be stoic? Or or or or or.....What ever happened to a hero representing the "average" guy? Some acne, a bit of pudge, maybe an underachiever, ect...
-_- Feminists are quick to point to any perceived problem with "women" but seem to be willfuly ignoring the fact that it's not like women get special treatment. It's just showed differently with the male characters

EDIT: Also, I go to NYU -> Left wing activists of the more radical persuasion aren't brainwashed into being....I'm convinced they're spawned. They multiply way to fast. I actually make it a point not to mention any of my political beliefs in school cause people would label me enemy number one -> I'm a white looking (I'm mixed), young, single, male that's had a pretty good life financially where most of my family has served in the army...therefore, to most of them, I'm all that's wrong with the world and need to plead for forgiveness and the right to breath the same air or spout the same rhetoric as them
Posted By: Ayath The Loafer

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 02/10/16 03:19 PM

Originally Posted by Vulpes Absurda

***snip***
A few women I have asked about this have been hugely disappointed and have opted to not buy this game or future Larian products. These people have supported Larian for many years, and are disappointed with this choice.
***snip***


Sometimes I wonder if people like you are real or just "going through the motions."

Anyway.
My wife plays RPGs in the nuddy and I don't.
Not because I don't want to, but more because I don't want to revert her attention from the task at hand.
Posted By: Ayath The Loafer

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 02/10/16 03:32 PM

Originally Posted by Hassat Hunter
Oh god, here we go...


And I add to your post with this little part:

Most people voicing opinions like OP - are Christians (or otherwise religious based on Christianity).

And this is funny because if they read their favourite book, they'd find that they are wrong.
Adam and Eve were created NAKED and one can therefore assume that God likes to watch naked people. It was when they discovered that they were naked and covered up, that they got kicked out of Eden.
So God likes naked people. It is in fact wrong to argue against the wishes of God.


Posted By: vometia

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 02/10/16 03:47 PM

Originally Posted by Ayath The Loafer
Most people voicing opinions like OP - are Christians (or otherwise religious based on Christianity).

Dunno about that: I'm of that persuasion and I disagree with the OP. My main gripe is that I want a better selection of shoes.
Posted By: Hassat Hunter

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 02/10/16 05:08 PM

Originally Posted by Surrealialis
From how mature and well put together your posts have been LordCrash, I have to say I'm a little disappointed to read this from you. It's not offensive, but it certainly isn't true. The poor treatment of women in video games and gamer culture is well documented fact and not in any way up for debate by intelligent people.

Apparently I need to do an IQ-test again, since seeing both male and female treated the same and having no issue with that means I'm stupid according to your post. Nice low stab there. Very mature.
Posted By: Sordak

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 02/10/16 05:43 PM

Originally Posted by Ayath The Loafer
Originally Posted by Hassat Hunter
Oh god, here we go...


And I add to your post with this little part:

Most people voicing opinions like OP - are Christians (or otherwise religious based on Christianity).

And this is funny because if they read their favourite book, they'd find that they are wrong.
Adam and Eve were created NAKED and one can therefore assume that God likes to watch naked people. It was when they discovered that they were naked and covered up, that they got kicked out of Eden.
So God likes naked people. It is in fact wrong to argue against the wishes of God.




if this would be the 90s.

No they actually arent devout christians. They are devout leftists.
Pretty much the same thing but they pretend its political and not a religion.

Prayer turns to virtue signaling, the original sin is "white privilege" and the Devil becomes the Patriarchy.

Its hillarious realy.
Posted By: mfr

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 02/10/16 06:31 PM

Originally Posted by vometia
Originally Posted by Ayath The Loafer
Most people voicing opinions like OP - are Christians (or otherwise religious based on Christianity).

Dunno about that: I'm of that persuasion and I disagree with the OP. My main gripe is that I want a better selection of shoes.


What! AND more cheeses?
Posted By: vometia

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 02/10/16 06:34 PM

Originally Posted by mfr
What! AND more cheeses?

Don't make me choose between them. I might implode.
Posted By: Surrealialis

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 02/10/16 06:35 PM

Originally Posted by Hassat Hunter
Originally Posted by Surrealialis
From how mature and well put together your posts have been LordCrash, I have to say I'm a little disappointed to read this from you. It's not offensive, but it certainly isn't true. The poor treatment of women in video games and gamer culture is well documented fact and not in any way up for debate by intelligent people.

Apparently I need to do an IQ-test again, since seeing both male and female treated the same and having no issue with that means I'm stupid according to your post. Nice low stab there. Very mature.


The shoe obviously fits. IQ tests include a reading comprehension portion that you should probably focus on.
Of course, there is nothing in there that checks for delusions or 'grasp on reality'.
Posted By: EinTroll

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 02/10/16 07:36 PM

I'm dropping in say that as someone who walks the line between being sensitive and difficult to insult, I was a bit jarred to see how elves dress, but in no way was I put off or insulted. My brain just put together pieces of knowledge and suspension of disbelief and the output was to feel slightly awkward, but not put off.

But I will admit that I am not a good judge of what is and isn't sexist when it comes to appearance. I focus more on the societal issues that create disproportional distributions of the populace. Any discrimination, really.
So, all I can say here is how I understand the link between depiction of a (fantasy, non-human) woman and the impact that has on real women: Depiction perceived as defining concept that is then applied as a preconception to real world examples. Of this, I can state that the depiction itself is not at fault. At fault here is the human mind that makes the connections between appearance and content (i.e. what the thing they see actually is). This is part of the deeply rooted tribalism that we as a species that fancies itself elevated really need to grow out of.

In short, blame the people making the associations that lead to discrimination, not the representation that intends to say something very different, maybe even a cold hard fact without beckoning any interpretation whatsoever.

Aside from that, I have seen some good arguments around.

In the end I will respect what direction Larian will take, and I trust that their choice will be reasonable.

Being civil is a minimum requirement, but take it from a cheese loving troll that respecting one another even when clashing in debate is a bonus.
Posted By: Ayvah

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 02/10/16 10:53 PM

If religion or politics were the crux of the argument against the costumes of the elves, then these would have been mentioned.

Personally, I'm atheist, but I'm not sure what difference that makes. We can debate religion on another forum.

It may surprise you to learn that people on the "left" (eg feminists) are not a homogenous group. While making posts in this forum supporting feminist ideals, I've also made posts in other venues in opposition to so-called feminism. For every feminist you meet, there's another feminist with a different interpretation of what feminism means. So you can never completely please everyone. I have personal experience dealing with the extreme fringes of feminism.

But most people are rational and if we sit together and discuss the issue in a mature way, we can start understanding each other and potentially find common ground.

Anyway, I don't see the elf designs as deliberately sexist, but I think with Sebille as the only elf character (and the first character you see) it looks sexist, and that's not a good thing.

My main concern is that the designs are impractical, unnecessary and jarringly inconsistent with the equipment you're outfitting them with.
Posted By: Testad

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 02/10/16 11:09 PM

Originally Posted by LordCrash
Strong, self-confident and mature women embrace their sexuality and don't repel it. The very same women can be naked, even in public, and don't feel bad about it, be ashamed about it, or feel objectified.

Sexuality is not bad. Being sexy is not bad. Don't be intimidated by displays of sexuality. That's actually something that makes the world a better, more enjoyable place.

And being naked and being sexy are not the same thing. Displays of naked people are not necessarily sexist, actually only in very rare instances with specific violent or abusive context they are. In most cases, it's just a display of human nakedness, nothing more. A display of nature.

Elves are creatures of nature. Why shouldn't they be naked or half naked? And if they want: Why shouldn't they be sexy?

Really, don't just see the bad in everything, the failure, the insult, the objection. Just enjoy entertainment for what it is, a means to make our lives a bit more fun and light, or let it just be and do something else with your life. But please, don't spoil the fun for everybody else just because you see wolves and ghosts everywhere and because you can't bear the sight of a halfly naked female (elven) being.

Btw I was naked in the sauna yesterday and nobody cared. Nobody called me sexist. People watched my body and I watched theirs and everything was fine, just like it should be. Life is often pretty simple as long as you don't make it complicated for yourself... wink


I'm not religious at all, but this is hilarious ^^

So basically once we were all naked cave people, with some bunny tails covering our ***ses, we were all smelly and dirty, you know...
But, since then we evolved, took us a long time, and we learnt about morality, psychology, culture, shame and we started to cover ourselves as we became more intelligent and better overall?
Well at least I thought so....
Posted By: aj0413

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 02/10/16 11:42 PM

Originally Posted by Testad
Originally Posted by LordCrash
Strong, self-confident and mature women embrace their sexuality and don't repel it. The very same women can be naked, even in public, and don't feel bad about it, be ashamed about it, or feel objectified.

Sexuality is not bad. Being sexy is not bad. Don't be intimidated by displays of sexuality. That's actually something that makes the world a better, more enjoyable place.

And being naked and being sexy are not the same thing. Displays of naked people are not necessarily sexist, actually only in very rare instances with specific violent or abusive context they are. In most cases, it's just a display of human nakedness, nothing more. A display of nature.

Elves are creatures of nature. Why shouldn't they be naked or half naked? And if they want: Why shouldn't they be sexy?

Really, don't just see the bad in everything, the failure, the insult, the objection. Just enjoy entertainment for what it is, a means to make our lives a bit more fun and light, or let it just be and do something else with your life. But please, don't spoil the fun for everybody else just because you see wolves and ghosts everywhere and because you can't bear the sight of a halfly naked female (elven) being.

Btw I was naked in the sauna yesterday and nobody cared. Nobody called me sexist. People watched my body and I watched theirs and everything was fine, just like it should be. Life is often pretty simple as long as you don't make it complicated for yourself... wink


I'm not religious at all, but this is hilarious ^^

So basically once we were all naked cave people, with some bunny tails covering our ***ses, we were all smelly and dirty, you know...
But, since then we evolved, took us a long time, and we learnt about morality, psychology, culture, shame and we started to cover ourselves as we became more intelligent and better overall?
Well at least I thought so....


Ain't moral philosophy grand!? There's no right or wrong definitive answer to that ;P

Some people hate moral relativity cause it'd mean they can't say something is wrong and feel confident that they must feel right: take female castration in other cultures for example. Even if you believe it's wrong, there's no objective moral standard to relate that too :P
Posted By: Testad

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 03/10/16 12:17 AM

I'm just saying that woman should be protected, sometimes even from herself.


I'm totally ok with a confident woman, talking and expressing her rights, woman. As a matter of fact I love strong woman, one that can sometimes speak back to me with some reason. But im not ok if someone will tell my daughter that its ok to be naked, that somehow it is connected to confidence and maturity.
Posted By: SlamPow

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 03/10/16 12:55 AM

Originally Posted by Testad
I'm just saying that woman should be protected, sometimes even from herself.


Aaaaaand I'm done.
Posted By: Luuin

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 03/10/16 01:02 AM

My problem is not that it's sexual but that it's just not practical armor. Ran through as a male Elf Knight and all the heavy armor had thigh tree bark plates but the rest of the leg was exposed as well as the stomach and forearms. Why would any race that's supposedly long lived like the Elves wear armor with that many gaps in it?

I get that they're going for the Wild Elf approach, but the armor is in no way practical at all. Reminds me of the drawing with the person in a metal bikini armor and has arrows and swords sticking in them but it all says 0 dmg floating over them.

Needs some full body Wild armor for heavier stuff if you're going to keep this "one with nature" style of racial armor.

Like this: http://www.kekaiart.com/uploads/5/4/7/6/5476798/8090673_orig.jpg

it's a wild nature style of armor, but the person wearing it isn't going to get stabbed in the gut cause there's nothing protecting it.
Posted By: Ayvah

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 03/10/16 02:56 AM

Originally Posted by Testad
I'm just saying that woman should be protected, sometimes even from herself.

If this what you meant to say, you should rethink your argument.

Do you have a problem with nudity, generally? Can you articulate your problem? There are valid reasons to dislike nudity, but I really hope your reasons aren't as sexist as you've made them sound.
Posted By: aj0413

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 03/10/16 04:01 AM

Originally Posted by Ayvah
Originally Posted by Testad
I'm just saying that woman should be protected, sometimes even from herself.

If this what you meant to say, you should rethink your argument.

Do you have a problem with nudity, generally? Can you articulate your problem? There are valid reasons to dislike nudity, but I really hope your reasons aren't as sexist as you've made them sound.


Are their valid reasons? Or just reason your relative moral standard would agree with? Is sexism even bad? Who said it was? How do you know they're right? Is cannibalism wrong? according to what objective moral, universally true standard? Did god tell you? But who told god? Where'd he find this universal truth? Or did god just say it was so....in which case, does that just means we judge standards relative to god's subjective, relative view?

Anyway, on armor practicality:
This was a response to someone else bringing up armor styles having certain looks within "melee" and "mage" "class" spectrums.


For instance, the leather rogue armor (+dodge%) looks different from the heavy plate armor that elves (or any race) can wear. That's different sets along the spectrum of "melee scrapper." I don't know if the same holds true for the mage side, but I assume it should in the long term. Mage robes obviously look different from plate armor that has some magic armour, but I don't know if that same plate amour varies enough from regular just physical plate armour as part of different morph set or if the amrour is just different due to level and stats and RNG.

At the moment, I think the amour look comes from the type (ie. robes, leather, plate) and the defenses and stats (ie amount physical/magic amour, resistance) and the race and the level. How extensive that is, is the real question.....

I don't quite like what I've seen for elves so far, but I'm not sure if that's just cause of the limited content or the style itself. Some people bringing up how little protection it looks like...well, I remember the amount of protection the armor in D:OS EE looked like it gave from level 1 to level 20 on a warrior changed alot over time. It evolved based on item level to look more stout and 'cooler' for lack of a better word. The low level elves might look naked simply cause they're a stylized showing of how fragile they are currently.

In short, their might be other visual styles that would solve this entire issue with elf armor, but requires us to get higher levels and further into the game.
Posted By: Ayvah

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 03/10/16 06:01 AM

Originally Posted by aj0413
Originally Posted by Ayvah
If this what you meant to say, you should rethink your argument.

Do you have a problem with nudity, generally? Can you articulate your problem? There are valid reasons to dislike nudity, but I really hope your reasons aren't as sexist as you've made them sound.


Are their valid reasons? Or just reason your relative moral standard would agree with? Is sexism even bad? Who said it was? How do you know they're right? Is cannibalism wrong? according to what objective moral, universally true standard? Did god tell you? But who told god? Where'd he find this universal truth? Or did god just say it was so....in which case, does that just means we judge standards relative to god's subjective, relative view?

Who said anything about objectivity?

I'm asking that he present a valid non-sexist argument against nudity. That doesn't mean I'll agree to it.

I'll also remind you that I'm an atheist.

Sexism is wrong because it derives from the assumption that there are differences between men and women that are fundamental biological realities without adequate justification. It's not sexist to say that women are the only sex who can give birth. It is sexist to say that men are the only sex who can do science.
Posted By: aj0413

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 03/10/16 07:13 AM

Originally Posted by Ayvah
Originally Posted by aj0413
Originally Posted by Ayvah
If this what you meant to say, you should rethink your argument.

Do you have a problem with nudity, generally? Can you articulate your problem? There are valid reasons to dislike nudity, but I really hope your reasons aren't as sexist as you've made them sound.


Are their valid reasons? Or just reason your relative moral standard would agree with? Is sexism even bad? Who said it was? How do you know they're right? Is cannibalism wrong? according to what objective moral, universally true standard? Did god tell you? But who told god? Where'd he find this universal truth? Or did god just say it was so....in which case, does that just means we judge standards relative to god's subjective, relative view?

Who said anything about objectivity?

I'm asking that he present a valid non-sexist argument against nudity. That doesn't mean I'll agree to it.

I'll also remind you that I'm an atheist.

Sexism is wrong because it derives from the assumption that there are differences between men and women that are fundamental biological realities without adequate justification. It's not sexist to say that women are the only sex who can give birth. It is sexist to say that men are the only sex who can do science.


Dude, I was just poking fun at the idea that the idea that something is "right" or "wrong" is entirely made up concept that at it's most basic form evolved from social contract theory so society could sustain itself. Eh, that probably makes me a bad Christian to say that.

Whether you're atheist or not doesn't really matter. Whether he's sexist or not doesn't matter. Whether I believe new born babies are delicious snacks when lightly fried and tossed with Soy Sauce doesn't matter.

This statement: "Sexism is wrong," fundamentally, relies on the fact that we must have a common understanding of what's wrong. Or one of us must have a better understanding. Or one of us must be mistaken in our understanding. Is it wrong to make a false statement? Who can say. Maybe it's just weird.

You're literally arguing an opinion is what it can be boiled down to.

As for the literal version of wrong of saying something like: The sky is green when it obviously doesn't look like it is. Or that only the male sex can do science. <- We must then commonly define science. Then we must define what is a male. And I can be more asinine and say we must define what one means by "only" or "can do." You might eventually catch me in saying a false statement and disproving it with empirical evidence, but then you have to prove that it's "wrong"to make said false statement and I can stone wall you on that all day for any reason I can imagine.

I'm obviously just poking at you and others, but I do find it a bit amusing in a dark way when I remember that ultimately none of this means anything anyway and peoples individual sensibilities mean very little in the grand scheme. And they are individual since no two people think exactly alike. Person A and Person B might have very similar moral standards but dig deep enough and you'll inevitably find difference.

EDIT:
Also, also, there's plenty of arguments against nudity.

Comfort

Protection

Awkwardness from body image and mating psychology on both sides. Men will check out women and women will check out men and everybody will check out everyone. Can't change cultural brainwashing of what's sexual :P and it's also inherent in biology.

Competitiveness creating power dynamics and social hierarchy

Problems inherent in clothing options/choice and/or lack there of came from culture not from the clothing such that nudity will create it's own cultural issues no doubt. and there's also the real issues that come from biological impulses and psychology tied to it and the the practical reasons against nudity such as cold weather and comfort levels.
Posted By: Ayvah

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 03/10/16 08:28 AM

Originally Posted by aj0413
Whether you're atheist or not doesn't really matter.

It mattered in the context that you were joking that my moral compass is based entirely on a very old book of fiction. :P

Quote
Is it wrong to make a false statement?

Yes. It is literally wrong.

We can debate semantics (or religion) if you want, but this is not the best venue.

Also, no one is entitled to their opinion. Opinions should be justifiable. Stonewalling doesn't grant you any special privilege.

Quote
Person A and Person B might have very similar moral standards but dig deep enough and you'll inevitably find difference.

I would argue the inverse.

Anyway, if you're done "poking fun"...
Posted By: aj0413

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 03/10/16 08:49 AM

Originally Posted by Ayvah
Originally Posted by aj0413
Whether you're atheist or not doesn't really matter.

It mattered in the context that you were joking that my moral compass is based entirely on a very old book of fiction. :P

Quote
Is it wrong to make a false statement?

Yes. It is literally wrong.

We can debate semantics (or religion) if you want, but this is not the best venue.

Also, no one is entitled to their opinion. Opinions should be justifiable. Stonewalling doesn't grant you any special privilege.

Quote
Person A and Person B might have very similar moral standards but dig deep enough and you'll inevitably find difference.

I would argue the inverse.

Anyway, if you're done "poking fun"...


Well, I mean, you just keep giving me more ammo.

How does one justify an opinion? You'd have to have a common value system to determine how something is "justified." :p And how would you remove said "entitlement," control their thoughts? Tell them that your opinion is the only one that matters? Stonewalling doesn't have to grant me a special privledge other than the fact that it's my freedom to do so.

And by arguing the inverse you then have to prove that everyone has at least one common moral trait. That's much harder.

And you keep using the word wrong. You can't define something as wrong without agreeing what wrong is. Your thought process that you can end a statement with the word is inherently wrong ;P

Also, the Bible (or any holy text) was just an example really of one of the main issues with moral philosophy. No one really cares if your atheist. Just like no one really cares if I believe in God.

You say this is the wrong venue, but considering others wanted to bring up sexism; I feel entitled to bring up the pint that their morality is questionable itself. It's just as relevant ;p

Im being a bit of a dick, but this is basically now my inclination whenever anyone mentions anything to do with a moral standard or politics
Posted By: Skallewag

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 03/10/16 08:59 AM

Originally Posted by Ayvah
Yes. It is literally wrong.


No, it is litterally incorrect to make a false statement.
On a moral plane it can be the entierly correct thing to do, and you are trying to make an argumant about the morality of nudity and/or sexism, right?
Posted By: Limz

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 03/10/16 09:17 AM

The only moral system that matters is mine, I am your God King.
Posted By: randomwalker

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 03/10/16 11:23 AM

umm.. okay... so before this thread went up in flames,

- the point WAS that putting a bikini elf up front creates a different first impression that putting basically any other character there, and for many that difference is for the worse.

- the point was NOT everything else being discussed.

did I get it right?
Posted By: Limz

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 03/10/16 11:28 AM

Originally Posted by randomwalker
umm.. okay... so before this thread went up in flames,

- the point WAS that putting a bikini elf up front creates a different first impression that putting basically any other character there, and for many that difference is for the worse.

- the point was NOT everything else being discussed.

did I get it right?


[Finesse] *Tell randomwalker that the point was to use the medium as a point to express the superiority of the God King's moral system.*
Posted By: SlamPow

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 03/10/16 11:47 AM

Originally Posted by randomwalker
umm.. okay... so before this thread went up in flames,

- the point WAS that putting a bikini elf up front creates a different first impression that putting basically any other character there, and for many that difference is for the worse.

- the point was NOT everything else being discussed.

did I get it right?


You got it. I personally got confused on which thread I was in for a second. My apologies.

Edit: That was the other thread where I got the thread wrong. I posted in the wrong thread about posting in the wrong thread.
Posted By: Skallewag

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 03/10/16 01:08 PM

No I think you were thinking about the right thread when you were in the wrong thread but got the threads mixed up in a correct manner ending up with an incorrect conclusion as to what thread is the correct one.
Posted By: SlamPow

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 03/10/16 01:21 PM

Originally Posted by Skallewag
No I think you were thinking about the right thread when you were in the wrong thread but got the threads mixed up in a correct manner ending up with an incorrect conclusion as to what thread is the correct one.


Aaaah, what?

You know what? I'm just going to go to sleep. This is clearly too much for my sleep deprived brain to handle.

Thanks for the assistance, friend.
Posted By: Limz

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 03/10/16 01:38 PM

Originally Posted by SlamPow
Originally Posted by Skallewag
No I think you were thinking about the right thread when you were in the wrong thread but got the threads mixed up in a correct manner ending up with an incorrect conclusion as to what thread is the correct one.


Aaaah, what?

You know what? I'm just going to go to sleep. This is clearly too much for my sleep deprived brain to handle.

Thanks for the assistance, friend.


1. *Laugh at his misfortune and say good bye.*
Posted By: Noirdeathe

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 03/10/16 02:37 PM

Oh man; again?!

I'm pretty sure people complaining about these non-issues is more offensive than having to see any semi-naked fantasy Elf.

People need to accept that other people have differing tastes; just because you get offended doesn't mean you're right.

Posted By: Fyrestorme

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 03/10/16 04:22 PM

Originally Posted by Hassat Hunter
Oh god, here we go...


Please.. for the integrity of the game and the game's lore - do not give in to feminazism.
Posted By: Kradimus

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 03/10/16 05:52 PM

does anyone know if you can make your elf breasts bigger? Like a slider option?
Posted By: Skallewag

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 03/10/16 05:52 PM

Originally Posted by Fyrestorme
Originally Posted by Hassat Hunter
Oh god, here we go...


Please.. for the integrity of the game and the game's lore - do not give in to feminazism.


I really hope they won't. Not only does these kind of demands always come from insanely convoluted and flawed reasoning to begin with, but it also does not help to try appeasing them, they are never happy with a consession, the only thing it creates is more demands and shrieking because they smell blood.
What does however work is to tell them to fuck off and go away.

I did however feel a bit hopefull when reading the article from PC gamer that someone posted here the other day.
Judging by that it doesn't sound like Sven has the mindset and philosophy about the game to allow the moral police to hijack it. smile
Posted By: Testad

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 03/10/16 06:34 PM

Originally Posted by Ayvah
Originally Posted by aj0413
Originally Posted by Ayvah
If this what you meant to say, you should rethink your argument.

Do you have a problem with nudity, generally? Can you articulate your problem? There are valid reasons to dislike nudity, but I really hope your reasons aren't as sexist as you've made them sound.


Are their valid reasons? Or just reason your relative moral standard would agree with? Is sexism even bad? Who said it was? How do you know they're right? Is cannibalism wrong? according to what objective moral, universally true standard? Did god tell you? But who told god? Where'd he find this universal truth? Or did god just say it was so....in which case, does that just means we judge standards relative to god's subjective, relative view?

Who said anything about objectivity?

I'm asking that he present a valid non-sexist argument against nudity. That doesn't mean I'll agree to it.

I'll also remind you that I'm an atheist.

Sexism is wrong because it derives from the assumption that there are differences between men and women that are fundamental biological realities without adequate justification. It's not sexist to say that women are the only sex who can give birth. It is sexist to say that men are the only sex who can do science.


Well first of all I hope you understand that world you are living in, is apparently very different from mine. You know there are countries beside EU and US, with their own cultures and beliefs.
We don't even have this term "sexism". Its not even an issue to us to argue about the differences of man and woman. Ideally we strife to life in a harmony where everyone is doing their part. Of course we have our ups and downs. For me woman is a mother, a sister, a partner, an obligation and responsibility. So for example you said that for you man and woman are equals, well, yes, why do you even have to state that. But! we have to have more responsibility than women does. Its just a natural and healthy way in my opinion. Ex: Do I want my woman to work? No I don't, cause I don't want her to get frustrated or tired or to have any worries that comes with the job. I just don't want that. Do I force her to stay at home? Nope. She is an adult human being. But what she does? She stays at home. Does she want to work? Maybe, maybe just out of curiosity. But she agrees with me. Do you get the dynamics here? We are equal, but I decided to take a full responsibility for her and she accepted that. We have a saying "Any man is a king of his own house." What it probably means to you - Any man is free to do whatever he wants with his woman. What it really means - The man is responsible for everyone living under his roof, first of all the safety, physical mental and moral. So when I said that I don't want that to happen to my daughter is me worrying about the mental and moral health of my child. What I meant when I said that woman should be protected even from herself is - How many times young woman are being lied to, f***ed and left, sometimes with a child. Leaving her to her own decisions when some boy is lying to her that he loves her and all that shit just to use her is weak and wrong. The point I'm trying to make is that your morals and "rights" or "wrongs" a very very very different from mine! Cause we literally live in a different worlds! I read your posts. Even your mindset about this issue is strange and alien to me. As the mindset of the person who wrote about going naked to sauna. That concludes : my opinion of the issue is mine, and its right for me and the world I live in, and yours are probably true to the world you live in. So saying that opinions should be justifiable is only viable when you share the culture. But thank God we all speak English and can share different views on this issue, so maybe someone will benefit from it. That was the whole point of me posting, maybe some woman will read this and think "you know this is interesting, I should try this" and that will save her from something bad.
Posted By: SlamPow

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 03/10/16 06:37 PM

Originally Posted by Kradimus
does anyone know if you can make your elf breasts bigger? Like a slider option?


Hmm... I don't know about "elf" breasts specifically. But implants do wonders for the aspiring young woman. And if you don't have the money for that, some kleenexes and a padded bra will do just fine.
Posted By: Testad

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 03/10/16 06:39 PM

Originally Posted by Testad
Originally Posted by Ayvah
Originally Posted by aj0413
[quote=Ayvah]If this what you meant to say, you should rethink your argument.

Do you have a problem with nudity, generally? Can you articulate your problem? There are valid reasons to dislike nudity, but I really hope your reasons aren't as sexist as you've made them sound.


Are their valid reasons? Or just reason your relative moral standard would agree with? Is sexism even bad? Who said it was? How do you know they're right? Is cannibalism wrong? according to what objective moral, universally true standard? Did god tell you? But who told god? Where'd he find this universal truth? Or did god just say it was so....in which case, does that just means we judge standards relative to god's subjective, relative view?

Who said anything about objectivity?

I'm asking that he present a valid non-sexist argument against nudity. That doesn't mean I'll agree to it.

I'll also remind you that I'm an atheist.

Sexism is wrong because it derives from the assumption that there are differences between men and women that are fundamental biological realities without adequate justification. It's not sexist to say that women are the only sex who can give birth. It is sexist to say that men are the only sex who can do science.


Well first of all I hope you understand that world you are living in, is apparently very different from mine. You know there are countries beside EU and US, with their own cultures and beliefs.
We don't even have this term "sexism". Its not even an issue to us to argue about the differences of man and woman. Ideally we strife to life in a harmony where everyone is doing their part. Of course we have our ups and downs. For me woman is a mother, a sister, a partner, an obligation and responsibility. So for example you said that for you man and woman are equals, well, yes, why do you even have to state that. But! we have to have more responsibility than women does. Its just a natural and healthy way in my opinion. Ex: Do I want my woman to work? No I don't, cause I don't want her to get frustrated or tired or to have any worries that comes with the job. I just don't want that. Do I force her to stay at home? Nope. She is an adult human being. But what she does? She stays at home. Does she want to work? Maybe, maybe just out of curiosity. But she agrees with me. Do you get the dynamics here? We are equal, but I decided to take a full responsibility for her and she accepted that. We have a saying "Any man is a king of his own house." What it probably means to you - Any man is free to do whatever he wants with his woman. What it really means - The man is responsible for everyone living under his roof, first of all the safety, physical mental and moral. So when I said that I don't want that to happen to my daughter is me worrying about the mental and moral health of my child. What I meant when I said that woman should be protected even from herself is - How many times young woman are being lied to, f***ed and left, sometimes with a child. Leaving her to her own decisions when some boy is lying to her that he loves her and all that shit just to use her is weak and wrong. The point I'm trying to make is that your morals and "rights" or "wrongs" a very very very different from mine! Cause we literally live in a different worlds! You stated yours and I shared mine. I read your posts. Even your mindset about this issue is strange and alien to me. As the mindset of the person who wrote about going naked to sauna. That concludes : my opinion of the issue is mine, and its right for me and the world I live in, and yours are probably true to the world you live in. So saying that opinions should be justifiable is only viable when you share the culture. But thank God we all speak English and can share different views on this issue, so maybe someone will benefit from it. That was the whole point of me posting, maybe some woman will read this and think "you know this is interesting, I should think about it" and that will save her from something bad.

Missed your q about the nudity - so you remember the days you were in high school? Now imagine going there naked.
Now think about the woman you love, imagine the same thing. You get it? Any man that says he's ok with a naked woman body and he doesn't want what he sees is a f liar.
If an unattractive woman wants to share her unattractive body ok that the world she lives in and she might avoid any troubles but don't say that its perfectly ok for every woman. Because the others might face some real abuse and mental trauma.
Posted By: Sordak

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 03/10/16 06:54 PM

I dont have the patience to deal with this degeneracy any more.



By now anyone shoud have realized how ridiculous this is.

The arguments flip flop from "Muh realism" to "muh sexism" to "muh women want X" all the time. there is no consitency OTHER than what they want to achieve which is to castrate art.

The only thing that remains if you add it all up is hatred and disdain for beauty art and aesthetics.

there is nothing to discuss here.
this is prudes versus people that respect art.
Posted By: Testad

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 03/10/16 07:09 PM

Originally Posted by Sordak
I dont have the patience to deal with this degeneracy any more.



By now anyone shoud have realized how ridiculous this is.

The arguments flip flop from "Muh realism" to "muh sexism" to "muh women want X" all the time. there is no consitency OTHER than what they want to achieve which is to castrate art.

The only thing that remains if you add it all up is hatred and disdain for beauty art and aesthetics.

there is nothing to discuss here.
this is prudes versus people that respect art.


hahahahaha

Have you ever heard the term "sex sells"? Nothing beautiful about it, just a plain, old truth.
OP stated her opinion and said basically that she's tired of that concept. And you all get all hysterical..)))
Posted By: Grondoth

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 03/10/16 07:13 PM

PLEASE go back to /pol/
Posted By: Stabbey

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 03/10/16 07:29 PM

EDIT: Did I read this wrong or something? Well whatever I hate these tiresome threads anyway
Posted By: SlamPow

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 03/10/16 07:51 PM

Originally Posted by Stabbey
Originally Posted by Sordak
I dont have the patience to deal with this degeneracy any more.



By now anyone shoud have realized how ridiculous this is.

The arguments flip flop from "Muh realism" to "muh sexism" to "muh women want X" all the time. there is no consitency OTHER than what they want to achieve which is to castrate art.

The only thing that remains if you add it all up is hatred and disdain for beauty art and aesthetics.

there is nothing to discuss here.
this is prudes versus people that respect art.



blah blah blah blah bullshit

Arguments like this would be more convincing if they didn't all go the same way.

  • The ones complaining about "censorship" are always male.
  • While they agree that Developers should consider feedback from Alpha/EA on anything to do gameplay wise, any comments about art or costumes are from evil women trying to censor art as part of an evil scheme to cut off men's testicles.
  • It is merely a coincidence that the art is just how the "anti-censorship" people like it.
  • Women are not allowed to have an opinion about art or costumes which is different than that of men. They should just shut up and be grateful they're allowed to talk about gameplay.
  • While Developers are allowed and even encouraged to change their minds about anything gameplay wise in Early Access, they are NOT allowed to change their minds about anything design or artwork wise. The first ideas they put out are HOLY and changing them is BLASPHEMY.
  • Developers cannot possibly change their minds on artwork among themselves, it's only Evil Feminzaxxiestdstyas pressuring and threatening them that force the devs to reluctantly place their balls on the butchers block and chop them off.

Uuuuh, I think the degeneracy in question was Testad's statement that women should be "protected from themselves", and his rant about how he enjoys being the one in control in his household, because
Originally Posted by Testad
So for example you said that for you man and woman are equals, well, yes, why do you even have to state that. But! we have to have more responsibility than women does. Its just a natural and healthy way in my opinion.


and

Originally Posted by Testad
Do I want my woman to work? No I don't


and also, can't forget

Originally Posted by Testad
We have a saying "Any man is a king of his own house." What it probably means to you - Any man is free to do whatever he wants with his woman. What it really means - The man is responsible for everyone living under his roof, first of all the safety, physical mental and moral


So, Stabbey, what do you think of Testad's arguments? How would you respond to his statements? Set aside, for a second, the nebulous feminazis, and the omnipresent "Christian overtones" and other whatnot. How does what Testad said make you feel? Does it seem like degeneracy to you? I'd love to hear a woman's thoughts on this. Vometia? Do you have an opinion on this? You usually have something constructive to say in times like these. I'd love to hear what people think.
Posted By: vometia

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 03/10/16 08:27 PM

Originally Posted by SlamPow
Vometia? Do you have an opinion on this? You usually have something constructive to say in times like these. I'd love to hear what people think.

Who, me? I hate being put on the spot with the expectation of being responsible and sensible.

That said, of course I disagree with the premise that a woman can't do her own thing, at least within the limitations of what won't get me a telling off by my gf.

That's getting a bit off the point, though: regarding one's acceptance of Larian's artistic decisions, I guess "you pays your money, you makes your choice" applies. Though whether I continue to be so pragmatic once there's an artistic direction that sufficiently bothers me remains to be seen!
Posted By: SlamPow

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 03/10/16 09:04 PM

Originally Posted by vometia
Originally Posted by SlamPow
Vometia? Do you have an opinion on this? You usually have something constructive to say in times like these. I'd love to hear what people think.

Who, me? I hate being put on the spot with the expectation of being responsible and sensible.


Ah, sorry. I won't do that again, then. Thanks for being responsible and sensible anyways, though =D
Posted By: aj0413

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 04/10/16 02:00 AM

Originally Posted by SlamPow
Originally Posted by Kradimus
does anyone know if you can make your elf breasts bigger? Like a slider option?


Hmm... I don't know about "elf" breasts specifically. But implants do wonders for the aspiring young woman. And if you don't have the money for that, some kleenexes and a padded bra will do just fine.


I can personally attest to this ;P I've also made liberal use of socks for filling.

Throw a shirt over it and I had myself a very nice set of B cup breasts using my girlfriends bra
Posted By: Kalrakh

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 04/10/16 02:33 AM

Sure, elves look more special than beautiful, my friend would even say 'ugly' but that is a design decision. Same goes for the clothing, mainly if it goes for both genders. I'm a man, so I like sexy women half naked to look at, but on the other hand the illogic can bother me. But in this case those decision are racial dependent and not gender so sexism can't really be taken into discussion.

What me and him bothers far more is this corpse eating stuff. It is an interesting mechanic, but he has two drawbacks. First it sounds more like something an undead would do, but not an elf. Second only one char can really profit from the gifted spells, or you need to save scum test and devide the parts accordingly.
Posted By: Skallewag

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 04/10/16 11:43 AM

Originally Posted by aj0413
I can personally attest to this ;P I've also made liberal use of socks for filling.

Throw a shirt over it and I had myself a very nice set of B cup breasts using my girlfriends bra


The interesting question is: did the patriarchy brainwash you into conforming to that particular beauty ideal or have you simply observed something about human interactions and decided to use the "game rules" to your benifit? ^^
Posted By: Stabbey

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 04/10/16 11:54 AM

On these forums there have been amazingly long and tiresome flamefests about skimpy armors and high heeled boots. The 'Yay Skimpy' (YS) side usually ends up falling back onto a "if you complain about how the female characters are portrayed, you're engaging in CENSORSHIP and are therefore terrible".

This is a forum for the alpha. The developers have said that pretty much anything at all is still up for negotiation or change. Most of the players agree. The YS group's position though, is that the Alpha's artwork and portrayal must be set in stone. It must not be changed, it is SACRED and to change it is BLASPHEMY, CENSORSHIP. They are only doing this because the artists integrity is paramount in their minds, of course. The fact that they enjoy that art style is a complete coincidence.

Anyone who disagrees, who has a different preference for the art style is evil and committing CENSORSHIP. They must be shouted down and called names. They're trying to Destroy High Art. Remember, even though this is an alpha and basically anything can be changed, artwork is verboten, off-limits. The first impressions from the art must be preserved through the final version.

Any changes are not because the developers changed their minds on their own, or reconsidered what they wanted to do. Of course not. Everyone knows that in games development unlike gameplay coding features skills stats economy enemies, all of which require iteration, the first rough artwork is always final and always perfect. The first artwork never needs any improvements or changes. Even though the first impressions of gameplay and balance are usually in need of tweaks and changes, the first artwork always gives the exact impression intended by the artist and never should be changed.

If a developer ever does make changes, it's not because they decided that the impression that was received was different than that which was intended, or because they wanted to refine the art more. No. changes only happen because an evil cabal of nazi women ganged up to threaten the developers with consequences if they do not comply.
Posted By: Morbo

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 04/10/16 12:08 PM

Put me down in the camp of IDC (i don't care) or for more colorful language IDGAF (I don't give a fudge)

Can't we go back to discussing dialog and armor changes.
Posted By: Lyrhe

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 04/10/16 05:59 PM

Originally Posted by Kradimus
does anyone know if you can make your elf breasts bigger? Like a slider option?


Let's hope for mods. I'd welcome a nudemod as well. hahaha
Posted By: Ayath The Loafer

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 05/10/16 08:01 PM

So if we drop all the I'm on this side and You're on that side, I think that what actually offends me more is this sentence from OP:

"A few women I have asked about this have been hugely disappointed and have opted to not buy this game or future Larian products."

Pathetic attempt at blackmail and specifically designed to lower any respect one might have harboured towards OP.
Shame on you.
Posted By: Testad

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 05/10/16 08:12 PM

Originally Posted by Ayath The Loafer
So if we drop all the I'm on this side and You're on that side, I think that what actually offends me more is this sentence from OP:

"A few women I have asked about this have been hugely disappointed and have opted to not buy this game or future Larian products."

Pathetic attempt at blackmail and specifically designed to lower any respect one might have harboured towards OP.
Shame on you.


Let this thread die please. She got a lot of hate already. Take it easy on her.

wanna cookie?
Posted By: Skallewag

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 05/10/16 08:46 PM

Well... To be fair there are plenty of people who really really care if you believe in god, and there are people who really really care if you are an atheist (or a heathen). wink
Posted By: Skallewag

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 05/10/16 08:52 PM

I didn't notice any "hate". Perhaps you mean something different by that word, but when I think of comment hate I think of the kind of stuff you tend to find on youtube or in the chat of highly competetive PvP games.
Stuff like "go die in a fire" and pointless stuff like that.
Thankfully these forums seem to be a couple of notches above that type of comments.
Posted By: Limz

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 05/10/16 09:36 PM

Originally Posted by Skallewag
I didn't notice any "hate". Perhaps you mean something different by that word, but when I think of comment hate I think of the kind of stuff you tend to find on youtube or in the chat of highly competetive PvP games.
Stuff like "go die in a fire" and pointless stuff like that.
Thankfully these forums seem to be a couple of notches above that type of comments.


The undercurrent of 'hatred' is pretty much here and throughout many threads that has any kind of debate you can pretty much tell that the civility is thinly veiled and discourse has long been poisoned.

Hatred has many forms and there are more subversive expressions that are far more delicious to consume.

It's actually a fun game to play (just as much as it is fun to go the opposite direction) which is to denigrate your opponents as much as possible all the while skirting the rules preventing you from being banned as a toxic fuck (even if you are being a toxic fuck). Usually, though, this does require you to stick to the subject matter at hand and provide some relevant snippets.

How many people are here to learn and discuss? Very few.

Though there's always a good chance that a lot of the people who genuinely want discourse on a given subject are pretty shit tier at writing even remotely academically so it immediately turns into a shit storm. Emotional content should probably come at the very end as a conclusion rather than the preamble.

Posted By: Skallewag

Re: The first thing you see in the game - 06/10/16 04:28 AM

Nah, I reject that definition of "hatred". People harshly disagreeing with eachother, even making it contextually aparant that they dislike someone while still playing by the social rules of civility is not warranted to be labled as hate.
That has no effect besides watering down a word that should hold strong connotations to be meaningfull.

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