Larian Studios
Posted By: Lar Let's talk about durability - 20/10/16 08:27 AM
So - we keep on having discussions about durability and figured we'd throw it in the group and see what comes up.

We're open to try to remove it (and thus also the entire repairing mechanic) to see what it gives but before we do that we want to find something different that makes bashing open wooden doors & chests with weapons not the default option. The design is such that any way of opening a locked door or chest that doesn't involve the key has some type of cost.

If you bash open a wooden chest, you know you'll pay with durability. The cost here is that eventually that'll cause you to have to consume a repair hammer which has a gold value.

Obviously, you can choose to burn a chest (wooden objects have high resistances against other types of elemental damage), but then you have the risk that's what is inside will start burning. And if you burn a door, that takes time. Which, with the new reactivity mechanics, increases the risk that your crime will be discovered. Here the risk of discovery or loss is the cost.

And then there is lock picking. There the cost is that of the lock pick and the need to invest points in thievery.

We've got a couple of ideas but we'd be curious to hear what you guys think.
Posted By: Amatyr Re: Let's talk about durability - 20/10/16 08:42 AM
The risk of bashing should be the same discovery/loss that comes with burning. Honestly, I didn't realise that wasn't the case.

Durability/Repairing is a terrible mechanic that always makes me super sad in games.
Posted By: Morbo Re: Let's talk about durability - 20/10/16 08:58 AM
Make items unrepairable (but material salvageable).

light door vs cheap sword: 50% door breaks or 50 %sword breaks
light door vs expensive sword: 90% door breaks 10% sword breaks (everything salvageable)
strong door vs cheap sword: 10% door breaks 90% sword breaks (destroying some sword materials/ gems)
strong door vs expensive sword: 50% door breaks or 50%sword breaks (loose one gem)

-> having the chance that you have to rebuild your sword when attempting to break a door (and loosing a gem)-> gold or good crafting
Posted By: vometia Re: Let's talk about durability - 20/10/16 09:07 AM
Originally Posted by Morbo
Make items unrepairable (but material salvageable).

light door vs cheap sword: 50% door breaks or 50 %sword breaks
light door vs expensive sword: 90% door breaks 10% sword breaks (everything salvageable)
strong door vs cheap sword: 10% door breaks 90% sword breaks (destroying some sword materials/ gems)
strong door vs expensive sword: 50% door breaks or 50%sword breaks (loose one gem)

-> having the chance that you have to rebuild your sword when attempting to break a door (and loosing a gem)-> gold or good crafting

I think that works for me. No item degradation when it's being used for its intended purpose, but if you're using a sword as a woodcutting axe then it kinda serves you right if it gets broken!
Posted By: Kilroy512512 Re: Let's talk about durability - 20/10/16 09:11 AM
I honestly thought that breaking some of the items was already a thing for bashing chests. How about a compromise? Durability remains but only on weapons, and weapons take damage only when used to break things open. The cost of bashing open chests is still held strong without the tedium of repairs for those who have a thief or use other means to get around locks.

Alternatively, just make it so bashing destroys some of the contents. XD
Posted By: Morbo Re: Let's talk about durability - 20/10/16 09:16 AM
Weapons in combat would just get "dull" en need to be sharpend?

(not sure how a battle hammer could get dull)
Posted By: Naqel Re: Let's talk about durability - 20/10/16 09:34 AM
Originally Posted by Lar
We've got a couple of ideas but we'd be curious to hear what you guys think.


Remove the durability entirely, and replace hammers with crowbars.

Originally Posted by Naqel
Instead of durability and repair hammers, we should have a Disarm and Disrobe status/effects that allow an enemy to strip your gear(forcing AP use to re-equip), and Crowbars that act like super-lockpicks(rare, but require no skill to use).

With Crowbars in game, no door should be breakable through damage.


It achieves the same thing durability does: you can break things(gold cost) instead of opening them(skill investment), but it does so without the middleman of gear breaking and requiring repair.
Posted By: BlueGuy Re: Let's talk about durability - 20/10/16 09:41 AM
How to make durability interesting?
======================

-Perhaps weapons should gain in 'status' the more notable creatures are killed with the weapon.

-This 'status' adds bonuses such as intimidation in conversations. In battle the weapon gains an ability to hit the creatures it is renowned against more often. After a while you can name your legendary weapon.

-However if you use that weapon to bash a chest or door the weapon loses its 'status' bonuses because it is being treated as a simple tool and not as a treasured or mighty weapon.

- Using a weapon to bash a chest/door is also noisy and is more likely to draw guards/monsters to your location. After all, its not a subtle approach

Posted By: Kalrakh Re: Let's talk about durability - 20/10/16 10:41 AM
Keep the durability, but only for 'breaking' not for 'fighting' but remove option to repair, so if you want to break something, you have to be ready to sacrifice a weapon.

Or keep durability only for weapons. The most annoying thing is, that there is so much equipment to repair, even though most equipment gets replaced, before you need to repair it.
Posted By: NerdCommando Re: Let's talk about durability - 20/10/16 11:13 AM
Lockpicking is not a good reason to keep it - there are still lots of ways to go past the limitations. Sure, chests are resistant to elemental damage, but there are spells which do physical damage. You can just teleport that chest back and forth. If that's slow - well, just burn it until it has low hp, then teleport it so there's no fire when it finally breaks. And even if weapons get dull - you're literally drowning in non-enchanted weapons that cost almost nothing when sold. You just use those as improvised "lockpicks".

Durability just adds nothing but chore to the game. Especially now that the hammers are finite.
Posted By: Stabbey Re: Let's talk about durability - 20/10/16 11:58 AM
Originally Posted by Naqel

Remove the durability entirely, and replace hammers with crowbars.

Originally Posted by Naqel
Instead of durability and repair hammers, we should have a Disarm and Disrobe status/effects that allow an enemy to strip your gear(forcing AP use to re-equip), and Crowbars that act like super-lockpicks(rare, but require no skill to use).

With Crowbars in game, no door should be breakable through damage.


It achieves the same thing durability does: you can break things(gold cost) instead of opening them(skill investment), but it does so without the middleman of gear breaking and requiring repair.


That's simple and easy to understand, and it probably allows for better management of doors which you don't want players to bash down too easily.
Posted By: Madscientist Re: Let's talk about durability - 20/10/16 12:27 PM
At first I thought to remove durability completely.

After reading this I think it makes sense if a weapon is not damaged by normal combat, but it gets damaged when used to bash objects or attacking enemies like a stone golem. (I think Arcanum did it like this)

Armor does not get damaged from normal combat but it can be damaged by some special attacks. Rings and amulets cannot be damaged.

Maybe there are skills that attack equipment.
For example: Rusty rain: does high damage to the physical armor of anybody within the AOE and damages weapon and armor for everybody in the AOE. Does not do any damage to vitality or magical armor.

PS: I never bashed anything in the game to avoid repair. I always used skills to destroy objects.

PPS: I liked that in NWN2 you found "destroyed items" (correct name forgotten) among the loot when you bashed a container. It reminded you that bashing might not be the best way to open things.

PPPS: I never repaired anything in arcanum where they used this system.

PPPPS: I ran out of "P"s grin
Posted By: Mikus Re: Let's talk about durability - 20/10/16 01:52 PM
I really like many of the ideas here, and am extremely pleased that Larian is looking to fix what was IMO an incredibly tedious, frustrating, and pointless mechanic from D:OS 1. Although it doesn't directly address the side issue in this topic of how to apply durability to lockpicking mechanics, I'd like to again repost below my suggestions to improve both repairing (in case Larian insists on keeping it in for weapons and armor used in combat) and identification (which is equally tedious as currently implemented); I first posted the below suggestions among others in 2014 during the D:OS 1 alpha, then again during the D:OS 1 beta (http://www.larian.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=485218#Post485218), but here they are:

1) Loremaster/Identify overhaul
The current click-intensive system is extremely tedious, and adds no challenge. If a player has an identifying glass and sufficient Loremaster ability, all items that are picked up should be identified automatically (except those beyond the player's ability).
2) Blacksmithing/Repair overhaul
The current click-intensive system is extremely tedious, and adds no challenge. If a player has a repair hammer and sufficient Blacksmithing ability, a new "Repair All" icon/button usable only outside combat should repair all items equipped by the party with one click (except those too damaged for the player's ability).

Regardless, as long as the pointless repetitive clicking for item repair and identification is somehow fixed, I'll be able to play D:OS 2 without wanting to cry. wink Cheers!
Posted By: retrop Re: Let's talk about durability - 20/10/16 02:36 PM
I agree with those that say the cost of bashing open a chest outta be a potential for broken items. Also the "broken items" should be shown to indicate that you are missing out by bashing down chests.

The cost bashing in a door needs to be handled exclusively, with reactivity mechanics. Bashing/burning down a door is louder and takes more time than a lock pick, there should be a significantly greater chance of being caught while doing so.
I think in the ideal case, every time a door is hit there is a chance that near by NPCs will notice. If they are on the same side of the door as you and they notice, they would recognize what you are trying and sound the alarm etc. If they are on the other side of the door, it is a bit more tricky but I think at the very least if you bash the door all the way down, and during that period somebody noticed you bashing/burning, the alarm would sound.
The chance of being noticed could be based on distance from the bashing, and Wits of the characters.
There would have to be very clear feedback about when you are "noticed"

As a note, I also like the idea of weapons only being damaged for the duration of combat, so that there is an opportunity for gear destructive skills, weapons, strategies. For example an enemy could have some powerful sword, I have high Loremaster/Wits so I'd know what the effect the sword is having on his overall abilities so I target the sword directly. The biggest challenge with this addition in my view would be the UI complexity for handling all the different gear durabilities.
Posted By: Gnoster Re: Let's talk about durability - 20/10/16 05:21 PM
One possible thought (as other have mentioned): Remove the entire mechanic, and replace with another penalty for destorying the chest, e.g. a chance of destroying the highest valued items inside the chest. If you want to go even further, you could implement a rule that any magic item rolled for the chest is always destroyed if the chest was forced open through weapons or magic. This gives incentive to find a key or pick the lock.
Posted By: Kalrakh Re: Let's talk about durability - 20/10/16 05:28 PM
That wouldn't address the main concern of breaking doors for free. If you destroy a chest you can't use lucky charm anyway so it is less likely to destroy chests anyhow.
Posted By: Kilroy512512 Re: Let's talk about durability - 20/10/16 06:15 PM
I see a lot of people calling for improvements to the durability system. Keep in mind that everything they rework takes away time they could be putting towards something else, it's not a huge dev team after all.

Repair systems are inherently boring. In fact, I've never played or even seen a game that made repairs actually engaging. With that in mind, I would much rather see them band-aid this and move on rather than spend a bunch of time here trying to make an inherently tedious task less tedious. The two low hanging fruit that would be quick to implement and solve the issues stated by the devs, that I have come up with anyways, are as follows:

1) Make it so weapons only take damage from bashing locks.
or
2) Remove durability altogether and make it so bashing chests destroys loot.

Anything more complicated than that is a waste of resources IMO, but I'm open to similarly simple solutions.
Posted By: Melgrimm Re: Let's talk about durability - 20/10/16 06:58 PM
I hate that repair hammers/identifying glasses are consumed when you repair/identify. While I would not be sad to see durability dropped completely, if it needs to be kept, why not make repairs have a small gold cost instead of consuming an item? It kills immersion to carry 300 repair hammers at all times.

I don't mind the idea of repair/identifying in general, as long as it isn't completely tedious. I like making sure I am "geared up" for adventuring by making sure I carry some sundry items that will aid in my journey, and its fun to get a mysterious purple item and then excitedly identify it (especially in DOS2 because my wife's character has lucky charm and I have loremaster, so she always opens all containers and the only excitement I feel about looting is when she sends me the items to identify). Consuming my gear, however, upon its use just makes for a tedious run back to a central hub in order to buy more items. If I am careful in my battles I can conserve potions and keep from having to bounce back and forth between resource management and adventuring, and I feel rewarded when I am tactical enough in my approach to not use potions. There is no way that I can obviate item deterioration, though. Ultimately, item deterioration to me seems like a game momentum problem, so I hope that any solution Larian implements keeps game momentum in the forefront of its concerns.

Being able to repair items with like items would work well, too, since you naturally get them when looting. After a battle I stop and examine what has dropped anyway, so taking the extra step to decide what to scrap for repair parts or what to keep to sell wouldn't cause a lurch in momentum and would solve the problem of making tactical decisions about how you use your resources. Likewise, as long as repair materials were easily obtainable from looting (if you don't want to make armor and weapons able to be broken down for parts) I would be ok with repairing.
Posted By: aj0413 Re: Let's talk about durability - 20/10/16 07:10 PM
Lots of people have been asking for either its entire removal or some changes in how it works. People also seem to dislike the idea that upkeep would ever be forced onto them and that using an infinitely usable repair item to repair items is simple tedious and "un-fun."

In the vain of solving this, while keeping the system, I offer a few changes:

> Add a repair all button that uses up repair items in inventory
> Make hammers and tongs consumables
> Make repairing require some points in blacksmithing/crafting and the amount of durability returned per consumable dependent on ability level(s)
> Add in skills/actions that target item durability (ie Sunder from D&D)
> Allow players to deconstruct/recycle components from items for crafting/blacksmithing using repair items. The value of the items obtained dependent on crafting/blacksmithing levels
> An item reaching zero durability is only unusable for a couple turns in combat before regenerating small amount
> A "break" action to tell PCs to auto target a door, chest, etc... till the item is broken without forcing players to repeatedly click
> Reward players for gear upkeep**

**Expanding on The Reward System:

- Example 1: A well maintained sword gains a status effect like 'keen edge' which adds +2 to hit. Items with a keen edge can be poisoned and have other effects added to them. In contrast a poorly maintained sword can't have effects added but hits as per normal.

- Example 2: An armour set kept in top condition adds +10 to armour rating and +1 to intimidation rating in conversations.

- The benefits would vary by weapon or armour type and would go away once durability fell below a percentage (ie 75%).

The above reward and recycle/deconstruction systems are courtesy of BlueGuy and the rest is an amalgamation from a number of users on the forums. Smokey, in particular, offered the suggested durability combat system ideas.

Thoughts and suggestions on this?
Should items still be breakable in traditional sense?
Would durability skills be too much?
Would you prefer if the reward system was the only thing in place if durability was still left in at all?

**I think the durability combat mechanics would also add more flavor to physical melee classes in the shape of soft CC.
Posted By: Kilroy512512 Re: Let's talk about durability - 20/10/16 07:15 PM
Originally Posted by aj0413

> Add a repair all button that uses up repair items in inventory
> Make hammers and tongs consumables
> Make repairing require some points in blacksmithing/crafting and the amount of durability returned per consumable dependent on ability level(s)
> Add in skills/actions that target item durability (ie Sunder from D&D)
> Allow players to deconstruct/recycle components from items for crafting/blacksmithing using repair items. The value of the items obtained dependent on crafting/blacksmithing levels
> An item reaching zero durability is only unusable for a couple turns in combat before regenerating small amount
> A "break" action to tell PCs to auto target a door, chest, etc... till the item is broken without forcing players to repeatedly click
> Reward players for gear upkeep**


That is a LOT of work to make durability into literally anything meaningful. It requires at least two systems to be added (skills that interact with durability and rewards for upkeep) and essentially just turns it into an arbitrary extra health bar that you can't see without digging through your inventory.
Posted By: aj0413 Re: Let's talk about durability - 20/10/16 07:36 PM
Originally Posted by Kilroy512512
Originally Posted by aj0413

> Add a repair all button that uses up repair items in inventory
> Make hammers and tongs consumables
> Make repairing require some points in blacksmithing/crafting and the amount of durability returned per consumable dependent on ability level(s)
> Add in skills/actions that target item durability (ie Sunder from D&D)
> Allow players to deconstruct/recycle components from items for crafting/blacksmithing using repair items. The value of the items obtained dependent on crafting/blacksmithing levels
> An item reaching zero durability is only unusable for a couple turns in combat before regenerating small amount
> A "break" action to tell PCs to auto target a door, chest, etc... till the item is broken without forcing players to repeatedly click
> Reward players for gear upkeep**


That is a LOT of work to make durability into literally anything meaningful. It requires at least two systems to be added (skills that interact with durability and rewards for upkeep) and essentially just turns it into an arbitrary extra health bar that you can't see without digging through your inventory.


*shrug* I'm a fan of the idea that bashing something with a something causes damage to both items.

I'm also a fan of the intuitive idea that weapons and armor degrade with use.

smirk I know that the two extra systems sound like alot of work, but I'd rather make things more interesting by adding things to the pot that would increase the 'fun-factor' rather than a simplifying of the systems by removing things.

As it stands, I get why durability could be something that players don't find fun. So i propose, we make it fun.

As for digging through for other health bar. I don't see it that way. The UI popup with color coding to indicate areas on character equipment and durability, works fairly well. You only really need a general sense of where durability is at any one time after all.

**Also, keep in mind, in my proposed changes, a PC doesn't need to necessarily upkeep with durability much unless he wants to bash things and/or get rewards for his diligence.
Posted By: Kalrakh Re: Let's talk about durability - 20/10/16 08:02 PM
Or other idea:
1) If you want hammers be consumable, give them 'durability'. For example: A repair hammer has a durability of 100 and can therefore repair 100 points of durability, before he gets broken.

2) Instead of a identifying glass, make it some kind of magic crystal or orb. Identifying certain rarity would consume a certain amount of durability/charges.
Posted By: Mathdude Re: Let's talk about durability - 20/10/16 08:07 PM
Great idea!
Posted By: Beatus Re: Let's talk about durability - 20/10/16 08:56 PM
My thoughts so far:

Regarding identify:
Automatically identify items on pickup if your lore skill is high enough. Use a consumable item to identify regardless of skill level. I'd suggest "scroll of identify" for immersion and roleplay.

Regarding repair:
Improve craft system and "fix" repair at the same time. Make it so that weapons and armor(maybe other items too) can be broken down to its components and those components can be used to repair or improve other items. If you sword is damaged or broken you might need iron/steel/mithril to repair it, if your staff is broken you need magic voodoo wood, etc. This way there is a cost but it's more about managing resources you'd already have anyway for crafting rather than carrying an item that serves only for the purpose of repairing.

Regarding stealth/lockpick/bash:
This is quite simple tbh. Bashing doors make A LOT of noise. Ever had to bash a door/container in real life? It's totally not stealthy at all. Also if people see you randomly breaking/burning/freezing stuff they MIGHT not like it.
If you break a container, you might seriously damage whats inside (loot loses durability) or even destroy it(loot is reduced to its base components A.K.A crafting resources).

This way there is a cost to destroying doors(makes stealth nearly impossible) and to destroying containers(you risk losing good loot).
Posted By: Shadovvolfe Re: Let's talk about durability - 20/10/16 08:59 PM
This is just going to result in savescumming outside of honor mode and is no different from durability simply being removed. If you bash a door open and your sword breaks, just quickload and do it again until rng favors you. Few people are going to have their favorite sword break when they can easily reroll and have it NOT break.

I could see a sort of "maintained" or "sharpness" buff though. If you go around whacking things other than soft targets, your weapon will dull or crack. Apply some oil or find and use a whetstone to get the buff back. Not obtrusive, nor strictly necessary, but a buff for those who take care of their things and an incentive to not whack doors and chests with your sword if you want to keep the extra damage or crit chance or whatever.
Posted By: aj0413 Re: Let's talk about durability - 20/10/16 09:22 PM
Originally Posted by Kalrakh
Or other idea:
1) If you want hammers be consumable, give them 'durability'. For example: A repair hammer has a durability of 100 and can therefore repair 100 points of durability, before he gets broken.

2) Instead of a identifying glass, make it some kind of magic crystal or orb. Identifying certain rarity would consume a certain amount of durability/charges.


I also wouldnt mind this at all smile

I simple identify all would also be lovely

Originally Posted by Shadovvolfe
This is just going to result in savescumming outside of honor mode and is no different from durability simply being removed. If you bash a door open and your sword breaks, just quickload and do it again until rng favors you. Few people are going to have their favorite sword break when they can easily reroll and have it NOT break.

I could see a sort of "maintained" or "sharpness" buff though. If you go around whacking things other than soft targets, your weapon will dull or crack. Apply some oil or find and use a whetstone to get the buff back. Not obtrusive, nor strictly necessary, but a buff for those who take care of their things and an incentive to not whack doors and chests with your sword if you want to keep the extra damage or crit chance or whatever.


yeah, the rng break mechanic is a bit too forgiving unless theirs some way to stop abuse.

thanks for the support on the reward system smile
Posted By: Mikus Re: Let's talk about durability - 20/10/16 09:30 PM
Originally Posted by Kalrakh
Or other idea:
1) If you want hammers be consumable, give them 'durability'. For example: A repair hammer has a durability of 100 and can therefore repair 100 points of durability, before he gets broken.


I see where you're coming from, but this change alone would seem to leave the existing repair mechanic otherwise untouched, which wouldn't be good. It's the ridiculous amount of clicking across up to four party members' inventories on repair hammers and dozens of pieces of equipment that completely puts me off.
Posted By: Kilroy512512 Re: Let's talk about durability - 20/10/16 09:34 PM
Originally Posted by Kalrakh
Or other idea:
1) If you want hammers be consumable, give them 'durability'. For example: A repair hammer has a durability of 100 and can therefore repair 100 points of durability, before he gets broken.

2) Instead of a identifying glass, make it some kind of magic crystal or orb. Identifying certain rarity would consume a certain amount of durability/charges.


I would be fine with this as long as they add a "repair all" button.
Posted By: Kalrakh Re: Let's talk about durability - 20/10/16 09:44 PM
I'm all in for repair all and automatic identifying as long as you have enough 'charges' to do so.

I just didn't not want to repeat these parts just for the sake of repeating it. They were already mentioned by others and my suggestion did not address overall mechanics, I think. laugh
Posted By: Kilroy512512 Re: Let's talk about durability - 20/10/16 09:56 PM
Well, it's important in my eyes to get a full picture of what you want conveyed all at once rather than a bunch of fragments. It makes it easier on both new readers and the devs.
Posted By: aj0413 Re: Let's talk about durability - 20/10/16 10:01 PM
Originally Posted by Kilroy512512
Well, it's important in my eyes to get a full picture of what you want conveyed all at once rather than a bunch of fragments. It makes it easier on both new readers and the devs.


But the walls of text though o.O

.......lol though I probably shouldn't be saying anything
Posted By: Kalrakh Re: Let's talk about durability - 20/10/16 10:11 PM
Perhaps we should try to compress the information to the bare essence, most seem to be supporting as a change. Even so 'most' is difficult to define. laugh
Posted By: mbpopolano24 Re: Let's talk about durability - 20/10/16 11:00 PM
Eliminating durability and repair is a terrible idea, pushing the game even forward into those “streamlined” ideals so close to causal gaming. I do agree that, as it is now, the system makes little sense.

My proposal: add durability to Tactician or higher difficult levels; introduce ‘consumable’ repair kits specific for the weapon / armor; make an item lose max durability every time is repaired on the field (e.g., an item with 50 max is lowered to 40 max using repair kits); require a blacksmith to repair items without losing max durability; make it impossible to repair special items (magical, high level items) save from special repair kits and/or experts; balance the speed of degradability (make sure players carry several weapons to balance their needs); increase degradation for improper use like bashing chests (items must lose durability even during proper use).

On a similar topic, make food useful again: players must eat (and sleep) or lose a % of accuracy each unit of time. Make finding recipes for food exciting again (right now food is useless). Make it possible to find extremely rare recipes to gain permanent (but small) bonuses (% accuracy, or dodging, or 1 point of strength over 10 magic pies…).

Another idea: make very few special items gain ‘experience’ (as you ‘tried’ in EE).

And finally: for the love of God, give us more control over the camera angles… I love the new vertical challenges you have introduced, but now it is even more difficult to navigate the environment. Let us see more in front of us!

BTW, DOS 2 is just such an incredible game, bravo.
Posted By: Mikus Re: Let's talk about durability - 20/10/16 11:02 PM
Heh, I might be guilty of some walls o' text myself. My preference (assuming they want to keep the repair mechanic) would also be to simply add a "repair all" button to avoid all the clicking, as I posted originally. As for identification, it should be automatic. This all assumes you still have the hammers/glasses/ability levels required (though I'm strongly against having hammers and glasses break, as a) it's not realistic and b) much more importantly, that would require you to carry a lot of hammers/glasses around - and there are much more "fun" ways to create gold sinks than this).

That said, I never find "survival mechanics" (item degradation/starvation etc.) to be either less "streamlined" or more fun in any game genre - in every case I can think of, it merely adds a layer of tedious micromanagement, rather than any true "challenge" requiring the use of the player's wits.
Posted By: Naqel Re: Let's talk about durability - 20/10/16 11:14 PM
Originally Posted by mbpopolano24
Eliminating durability and repair is a terrible idea, pushing the game even forward into those “streamlined” ideals so close to causal gaming. I do agree that, as it is now, the system makes little sense.


Complexity does not equate to depth.

Durability exists to add a monetary cost to breaking containers and doors, and discourage doing so with excessive frequency(because you can't really stockpile the resource you use to do it: repair tools/gold, since it is also expended elsewhere).

How the gameplay goal is achieved is irrelevant, and from an immersion perspective, the current one is just as jarring(your axe that would realistically be able to cut down any wooden door without a problem is half-broken after bashing down a single, shoddy looking, one) as having no durability would be(given the replacement rate on equipment, a realistic value would be so high as to be irrelevant, so it might as well be skipped altogether).

Hence I return to my suggestion:
Originally Posted by Naqel
Instead of durability and repair hammers, we should have a Disarm and Disrobe status/effects that allow an enemy to strip your gear(forcing AP use to re-equip), and Crowbars that act like super-lockpicks(rare, but require no skill to use).

With Crowbars in game, no door should be breakable through damage.


Separate statuses for the interesting implications of a weapon being disabled, straight-forward solution to restricting the supply of door-bashing equipment.
Chests can stay bash-able, because the cost is in the risk of damaging the contents/hauling them around till you can open them.
Posted By: aj0413 Re: Let's talk about durability - 21/10/16 12:44 AM
@Naqel

While I can see your points, I actually enjoy the idea of having durability. I find it intuitive and immersive, which I greatly prefer in my RPGs.

That's why i argue for extending the current system to be more fleshed out and adding some sub-systems.

We should make it one of those things that has cost vs gains decision making and strategic value.

Removing it would be an overly simplified attempt to solve things and leave holes elsewhere

And while I don't actively dislike your suggestions it makes me feel akward cause it doesn't seem like an intuitive replacement.

I do however think the skills/effects you suggested should be added regardless of what happens, actually. I like the idea of letting people choose to either invest in lockpick or use a crowbar in the same vain as the unlockspell except more rare. The disarm and disrobe effects can be tied into melee fighters to give them more flavor and expend their repitiore of skills since we have such a flush of magic trees
Posted By: Surrealialis Re: Let's talk about durability - 21/10/16 01:00 AM
I don't like durability. I don't understand the problem with 'streamlining' games. What do people like D:OS for? I can guarantee that no top 10 reason, or top 20.. or heck and reasons list at all include the 'durability' mechanic.

Broken loot sounds like the most interesting deterrent to bashing things. The simplest, remove from everything but weapons. If the entire mechanic exists so we don't use our swords why do I have to waste time repairing my gloves?
And it is a waste, anytime I spend in this game, not 1. customizing my character 2. getting into awesome battles or 3. following a good story... is a waste! Because those are the pillars the game is based on and repairing doesn't add anything.
If this was a survival game, you could make the argument. If this was an online RPG where economy mattered you could make the argument. As is, the devs want a way to make you explore and treat locked chests and doors as puzzles and not simply pinatas. The current mechanic doesn't work and is aggravating at best. The devs did not introduce repair mechanics for simulationist reasons.

So I suggest either removing repairs and introducing broken things out of items that would have been useful (likely, grenades, arrows, crafting items and rare or worse equipment) and now just sell for a bit and are junk.
Or they put durability entirely onto weapons and nothing and keep their current system.

PS. I still think they should just drop durability since it has never made me even think twice about bashing a chest thus far.
Broken items however CERTAINLY would make me think twice.
Posted By: error3 Re: Let's talk about durability - 21/10/16 01:40 AM
Originally Posted by Surrealialis
I don't like durability. I don't understand the problem with 'streamlining' games. What do people like D:OS for? I can guarantee that no top 10 reason, or top 20.. or heck and reasons list at all include the 'durability' mechanic.

Broken loot sounds like the most interesting deterrent to bashing things. The simplest, remove from everything but weapons. If the entire mechanic exists so we don't use our swords why do I have to waste time repairing my gloves?
And it is a waste, anytime I spend in this game, not 1. customizing my character 2. getting into awesome battles or 3. following a good story... is a waste! Because those are the pillars the game is based on and repairing doesn't add anything.
If this was a survival game, you could make the argument. If this was an online RPG where economy mattered you could make the argument. As is, the devs want a way to make you explore and treat locked chests and doors as puzzles and not simply pinatas. The current mechanic doesn't work and is aggravating at best. The devs did not introduce repair mechanics for simulationist reasons.

So I suggest either removing repairs and introducing broken things out of items that would have been useful (likely, grenades, arrows, crafting items and rare or worse equipment) and now just sell for a bit and are junk.
Or they put durability entirely onto weapons and nothing and keep their current system.

PS. I still think they should just drop durability since it has never made me even think twice about bashing a chest thus far.
Broken items however CERTAINLY would make me think twice.


Great points. I totally agree that durability is not fun for this game and should be removed.

Furthermore, players can use spells to break chests and doors and avoid the durability loss anyway. Durability literally fails at the only valid point here.
Posted By: Stabbey Re: Let's talk about durability - 21/10/16 01:40 AM
This isn't about Durability, but it is about Identification, so I'm reposting this from elsewhere.

Originally Posted by Kalrakh
If they really want to keep it, they should at least turn it into indentify scrolls and not a 'glass', also those scrolls should work, without the need of having Loremaster. So you would have the choice: spend social points for loremaster or use identify scrolls. But if you learned loremaster, identifying should work automatically like suggested.


Hmmm... well. if Larian wants to keep resource consumption for Identifying items, this idea isn't that bad. I'd change it up a bit though:

- Added consumable Identify scrolls. These are sold and can appear in loot.
- Identify scrolls can be used without points into Loremaster.
- Loremaster requires Identify glasses to use
- Identify glasses are no longer consumed on use, you can use them as much as you like
- Identify glasses come in 5 different qualities, which allows you to identify items up to and including X level of the item. ...Actually, perhaps scrolls also come in the same five types?
- Identify glasses are no longer found in random loot, can only be bought from merchants or found pre-placed.
- Identify glasses price is increased significantly, and each higher level of glasses has a higher price which also increases significantly from the previous level.

If Larian wants a gold sink for identification, this offers three: Merchant identification, one-shot-scroll identification, and reusable, but expensive identification.

Merchant identification is probably the most useless since it's pay-per-item and you need to travel there to use. But they can identify anything (if scrolls come in 5 types as well). Scrolls are not that expensive individually, but the costs add up, however, Loremaster is not required. The glasses can be used forever, but require points into Loremaster, and are expensive to buy and are not found in loot, and can only be bought or found in pre-placed locations.

I can see people hating the idea of 5 different levels of identification glasses (and possibly scrolls), though.


Originally Posted by mbpopolano24
My proposal: add durability to Tactician or higher difficult levels; introduce ‘consumable’ repair kits specific for the weapon / armor; make an item lose max durability every time is repaired on the field (e.g., an item with 50 max is lowered to 40 max using repair kits); require a blacksmith to repair items without losing max durability; make it impossible to repair special items (magical, high level items) save from special repair kits and/or experts; balance the speed of degradability (make sure players carry several weapons to balance their needs); increase degradation for improper use like bashing chests (items must lose durability even during proper use).


Never mind needing to carry around a whole lot of different repair kits specific to each specific piece of gear, there are larger issues I have with that.

Nobody liked the idea of repairing costing max durability in the DOS 1 alpha, and I imagine that won't change here. You might as well just not have repair kits because everyone will only repair at blacksmiths.

And making magical items unrepairable? Hello? Your entire gear will be magical after act 1.

Increasing the speed of degradation to force you to carry multiple weapons?! Have you played this game? Do you not realize that 80% of the loot in the game is random? Finding a single good piece can be hard enough, never mind needing to carry several good weapons for each character!!


Quote
On a similar topic, make food useful again: players must eat (and sleep) or lose a % of accuracy each unit of time.


With all due respect, FUCK THAT.

Survival mechanics are either too lenient and thus are so meaningless that they might as well not exist, or they are obnoxious and only serve to irritate most players.

Quote
Make finding recipes for food exciting again (right now food is useless).


No, recipes are not exciting and forcing constant food consumption to avoid penalties will absolutely not make them exciting.

And once again, this game has RANDOM LOOT, so good luck finding all the components you need for the recipes!

All your ideas are completely awful and murder fun in favor of incredibly tedious and fun-sapping micromanagement.
Posted By: Shadovvolfe Re: Let's talk about durability - 21/10/16 04:52 AM
I couldn't have said it any better myself. Clicking all your equipment to "repair it" isn't fun, engaging, realistic, or immersive. It's just a time waster.
Posted By: Baardvark Re: Let's talk about durability - 21/10/16 05:28 AM
Haven't posted in a while, but finally got to playing D:OS 2. Quite enjoying it. Anyway, I also found the repair hammer change questionable, and the identify glass one moreso. Repair hammer consumption at least disincentives chest-bashing, but barely. A single unbreakable weapon makes that a non-issue, or just use spells as error3 said. Or even just using the million extra junk weapons you find. An extremely ineffective solution with the cost of more inconvenience.

I prefer other ways to "punish" bashing open chests and doors. Breaking items in the chest, like Surrealalis suggested, would be a strong deterrent. Maybe just slightly, but permanently reducing the armor/damage on weapons and armor looted in a broken open chest?

Maybe a few abilities that set items to 0 durability could be cool, but mostly player abilities. For example:

Careless Strike: Strike with a high damage and guaranteed crit + bleeding (or whatever), but you break your weapon.

Overcharge (Aerothurge?): Double the stats of a piece of armor for 2-3 turns, but at the end of that time, it breaks. Difficult to balance, but could be cool.

Scales to Bone (Geomancer?): Heal for the remaining durability + X on an equipped item, breaking it.



These would synergize nicely with a talent that would let you equip weapons or armor for no AP once a turn or something like that.

Even these abilities could be easily done without durability just as well. Make them unequip the items and unable to re-equip them for a few turns, or the like. It's going to take a lot to make durability interesting, but abilities that interact with durability would be a great start. They would make for both tactical decisions about when you'd want to sacrifice an equipped item and resource ones, where using these abilities would cost money, though they could also open up new strategies for using the many weapons and armor you find that you might otherwise throw away.

If limited use repair hammers stay, I also agree they should have a repair amount instead of just single use. The higher the blacksmithing, the more you can get out of one hammer. And if that's the case, a repair all equipped items button would remove a ton of tedium. I don't know if it's worth the effort to make durability interesting, though.
Posted By: Elwyn Re: Let's talk about durability - 21/10/16 06:14 AM
My humble suggestion for a few changes with the durability:

- Remove the durability and replace it with just two states "intact" and "broken"
- Each "intact" item has a chance of being "broken" upon its use: a weapon when it is used to stike someone or something, armour when the character wearing is attacked
- Different items should have a different chance of becoming broken: kitchen knives e.g. 10% (meaning that a kitchen knive will break on average every 10 times it is used), legendary swords less than 1%
- Increase the chance for being broken when attacking doors or chests
- If an item is broken, it can no longer be used and must be repaired (for example with a repair hammer which can be consumed)

With such a system, there is always an element of surprise of a weapon becoming unusable in combat. The player also does not need to repair all items after the combat but only one or two which got broken.
Posted By: Kilroy512512 Re: Let's talk about durability - 21/10/16 06:34 AM
Originally Posted by Elwyn
My humble suggestion for a few changes with the durability:

- Remove the durability and replace it with just two states "intact" and "broken"
- Each "intact" item has a chance of being "broken" upon its use: a weapon when it is used to stike someone or something, armour when the character wearing is attacked
- Different items should have a different chance of becoming broken: kitchen knives e.g. 10% (meaning that a kitchen knive will break on average every 10 times it is used), legendary swords less than 1%
- Increase the chance for being broken when attacking doors or chests
- If an item is broken, it can no longer be used and must be repaired (for example with a repair hammer which can be consumed)

With such a system, there is always an element of surprise of a weapon becoming unusable in combat. The player also does not need to repair all items after the combat but only one or two which got broken.


I don't like the aspect of the idea that all melee and ranged characters now have a chance to have their weapon break mid combat. That is probably actually worse than any of the effects of the current system.
Posted By: GrumpyMcGrump Re: Let's talk about durability - 21/10/16 06:38 AM
Originally Posted by Stabbey

All your ideas are completely awful and murder fun in favor of incredibly tedious and fun-sapping micromanagement.


^ this and

Originally Posted by Shadovvolfe
I couldn't have said it any better myself. Clicking all your equipment to "repair it" isn't fun, engaging, realistic, or immersive. It's just a time waster.


^ this.

Are we kidding? We must be kidding, it must be. Weapon degradation and durability just adds an obnoxious level of micromanagement that I have hated ever since I played Diablo, and that was 15 years ago. Weapon degradation doesn't add "depth" or "fun" to any game whatsoever, at best it just adds another annoying feature that you MUST keep tabs on whenever you play. Same with Morrowind (F*** you werewolves and your armor-rending attacks, I've consumed more repair hammers and prongs playing Bloodmoon's main storyline than I did with the vanilla campaign, and that says a lot!), Oblivion, Fallout 3 (where every single gun and armor felt like it was made of glass judging by how frequently they needed repairs) and New Vegas (ditto).

I don't remember Baldur's Gate I and II or Skyrim ever having had equipment degradation, yet those three titles are considered the undisputed kings of the genre.

If using weapons to destroy chests and doors is the main concern, just use a script that creates only useless broken items once you've smashed a chest open, like Neverwinter Nights 2 did, and make "sensitive" doors unbreakable.

Another thing...magnifying glasses for identifying equipment? More micromanagement. The early access' campaign thus far is great, but one thing that constantly annoyed me was having 10 unidentified items in my inventory but only 3 magnifying glasses, and having to scrounge the whole map for more glasses. How about a Right click + a lore check as it happened with Neverwinter Nights?
Posted By: Kilroy512512 Re: Let's talk about durability - 21/10/16 06:45 AM
IRL armor would degrade quickly and weapons are sharpened between each battle typically. If you've done a bit of cooking you would know that knives get dull with the quickness. That being said, I don't know about you guys but I don't play games because I want to experience the most boring aspects of life. Maybe that's just me though.
Posted By: Elwyn Re: Let's talk about durability - 21/10/16 06:47 AM
Originally Posted by Kilroy512512


I don't like the aspect of the idea that all melee and ranged characters now have a chance to have their weapon break mid combat. That is probably actually worse than any of the effects of the current system.


I think that it all boils down to the question: Do you want the game to be completely deterministic where you can carefully plan for each and every situation or do you want the game to throw at you a few nasty surprises (like a weapon breaking in the middle of a fight) which force you to rethink your whole strategy? While I am a strong advocate of the latter, I understand that some people don't like the element of randomness.
Posted By: GrumpyMcGrump Re: Let's talk about durability - 21/10/16 06:54 AM
Originally Posted by Kilroy512512
IRL armor would degrade quickly and weapons are sharpened between each battle typically. If you've done a bit of cooking you would know that knives get dull with the quickness. That being said, I don't know about you guys but I don't play games because I want to experience the most boring aspects of life. Maybe that's just me though.


Considering that I've been practicing HEMA for the past 10 years, I can kinda see your angle. But if we're looking at things from that angle, IRL you can't shoot fireballs, magic wands don't have magic at all, and the best you can get out of a staff is a walking stick or firewood. Homo Sapiens Sapiens is the only intelligent being on the planet (unless you consider maybe whales, dolphins, ravens and african grey parrots) and eating food doesn't instantly restore your health.

Besides, as someone has already pointed out, you can effectively break open doors and chests with magic, therefore nullifying the intended purpose behind weapon durability.

Quote
I don't know about you guys but I don't play games because I want to experience the most boring aspects of life.


That is correct. I'm not playing D:OS 2 because I love having my weapons and armor break every 20 minutes and repairing them.
Posted By: Kilroy512512 Re: Let's talk about durability - 21/10/16 07:10 AM
Originally Posted by Elwyn

I think that it all boils down to the question: Do you want the game to be completely deterministic where you can carefully plan for each and every situation or do you want the game to throw at you a few nasty surprises (like a weapon breaking in the middle of a fight) which force you to rethink your whole strategy? While I am a strong advocate of the latter, I understand that some people don't like the element of randomness.


Deterministic. If it was possible I would remove the concept of rng from strategy games entirely. I hate rng with a passion when it comes to strategy games. It's fine in DnD because it is not set on rails so you can "fail forward" as it were. In single player games on rails, not fine at all.
Posted By: Madscientist Re: Let's talk about durability - 21/10/16 08:01 AM
Originally Posted by Elwyn
My humble suggestion for a few changes with the durability:

- Remove the durability and replace it with just two states "intact" and "broken"
- Each "intact" item has a chance of being "broken" upon its use: a weapon when it is used to stike someone or something, armour when the character wearing is attacked
- Different items should have a different chance of becoming broken: kitchen knives e.g. 10% (meaning that a kitchen knive will break on average every 10 times it is used), legendary swords less than 1%
- Increase the chance for being broken when attacking doors or chests
- If an item is broken, it can no longer be used and must be repaired (for example with a repair hammer which can be consumed)

With such a system, there is always an element of surprise of a weapon becoming unusable in combat. The player also does not need to repair all items after the combat but only one or two which got broken.


This is a very bad idea.

It was like this for some weapons in valkyrie profile and it was super frustrating, so I never used weapons that could break no matter how good they were.

I think we should remove durability and have broken items as penalty for bashing things. If we keep durability this should only happen when you bash things or when you or the enemy use a special skill that may damage equipment. If we keep durability, please add a "repair all" button.

Games should be fun. This game is about exploration, story and tactical combat. It is not a realistic middle age combat simulation or a survival game. I do not remember any classic RPG where repairing or identifying added much fun to the game. When games used very complex system regarding repair and identify it was very frustrating, not fun. Skip it completely or keep it simple. Focus on the parts of the game that make most fun. People in this forum will tell you what they find most important and fun, and I do not remember anyone said repairing equipment.
Posted By: Mikus Re: Let's talk about durability - 21/10/16 09:32 AM
Originally Posted by Kilroy512512
...I don't know about you guys but I don't play games because I want to experience the most boring aspects of life. Maybe that's just me though.


Nope, it's not just you.

Originally Posted by Kilroy512512
If it was possible I would remove the concept of rng from strategy games entirely.


Agree again. I'd also remove the scourge that is level-scaled content (e.g. shop inventories scaling to player level, which I believe is still in as of D:OS 2 early access), but that's a whole 'nother topic.

Originally Posted by Madscientist
Games should be fun. This game is about exploration, story and tactical combat. It is not a realistic middle age combat simulation or a survival game. I do not remember any classic RPG where repairing or identifying added much fun to the game. When games used very complex system regarding repair and identify it was very frustrating, not fun. Skip it completely or keep it simple. Focus on the parts of the game that make most fun. People in this forum will tell you what they find most important and fun, and I do not remember anyone said repairing equipment.


Exactly.
Posted By: Wrol Re: Let's talk about durability - 21/10/16 11:51 AM
I think it will be great, if guards react to broken doors.They think like "Look somebody crashed door, we must go in!".If you use lock piking guards will ignore the door. Or (I remember in first DOS was hearing) guards can hear you when you attacking door.
Posted By: Stabbey Re: Let's talk about durability - 21/10/16 12:16 PM
Originally Posted by Elwyn
My humble suggestion for a few changes with the durability:

- Remove the durability and replace it with just two states "intact" and "broken"
- Each "intact" item has a chance of being "broken" upon its use: a weapon when it is used to stike someone or something, armour when the character wearing is attacked
- Different items should have a different chance of becoming broken: kitchen knives e.g. 10% (meaning that a kitchen knive will break on average every 10 times it is used), legendary swords less than 1%
- Increase the chance for being broken when attacking doors or chests
- If an item is broken, it can no longer be used and must be repaired (for example with a repair hammer which can be consumed)

With such a system, there is always an element of surprise of a weapon becoming unusable in combat. The player also does not need to repair all items after the combat but only one or two which got broken.


I don't think this would be any kind of improvement on the current system.

It would result in equipment breaking much more frequently, possibly in each combat if the RNG is bad. Even if the chance of a break is only 5%, that's one out of every 20 attacks, which is a lot given how many times you can attack in combat.

Once the item breaks in combat, you have two options: Waste your AP on a repair or flee combat and run back to a blacksmith to repair it, then run back.

This also dramatically affects melee classes much more than any others.

"Surprises" are not always a good or fun thing. I don't know where some people get that idea, that if something happens which is unexpected, that's automatically fun. Life offers up lots of incredibly horrible and unfun "surprises".

Larian could program a surprise "Hard Drive Wipe LOL" which has only a 1/10000 chance of occurring when you save your game, but that wouldn't be fun, now would it?
Posted By: meme Re: Let's talk about durability - 21/10/16 03:10 PM
Havent' read this entire thread; but i kind of like damage to item reducing effectivenss and not having the ability of repairing things to 100%. This means that things will wear out over time. For example if you could only repair things to 95% then after 10 repairs it would be down to 65%; if effectiveness was 1.4 of % then the effectiveness of 10ac would be down to approx 7.8. Type of armor could impact max repairbility. Of course if items wear out too fast this can be quite annoying et all. However, with this system any item worn too many encounter will eventually break which means you will be forced to change items over the course of the game.
-
I don't know how well D:OS-2 items will progress but i know in d:os-1 it was not uncommon for me to find the 'best' item for my character early (amazing number of mid-level items were used until level 18 or 19). Anyway just a thought.
Posted By: Stabbey Re: Let's talk about durability - 21/10/16 03:34 PM
Originally Posted by meme
Havent' read this entire thread; but i kind of like damage to item reducing effectivenss and not having the ability of repairing things to 100%. This means that things will wear out over time. For example if you could only repair things to 95% then after 10 repairs it would be down to 65%; if effectiveness was 1.4 of % then the effectiveness of 10ac would be down to approx 7.8. Type of armor could impact max repairbility. Of course if items wear out too fast this can be quite annoying et all. However, with this system any item worn too many encounter will eventually break which means you will be forced to change items over the course of the game.
-
I don't know how well D:OS-2 items will progress but i know in d:os-1 it was not uncommon for me to find the 'best' item for my character early (amazing number of mid-level items were used until level 18 or 19). Anyway just a thought.


So, most of the items you were using at level 18-19 were found in the mid-game (level 9-12)? If I am not mistaken, loot in D:OS 1 is scaled based on the level of the chest/enemy which drops it and maybe partly on your level. Also, most of the loot in D:OS 1 is RNG-based, found in loot or bought off of vendors. So what that suggests is that you didn't have all that many good loot drops for the last third of the game.

To me, that makes your suggestion of loot degrading into uselessness extra-bizarre.

This is not Diablo or an MMO. The game does not contain respawning enemies and infinite loot, and probably not even a huge amount of unique items compared to a Diablo game. You can't trade good items between characters - you have to take what you get.

It's already annoying to go for ages without finding good weapons - my archer and mage were using their basic level 1 crude weapons for a very long time because nothing good dropped and I couldn't afford much of anything for sale. Adding on degradation so that eventually your gear breaks down just seems like it would be a further punishment for the RNG not giving you anything good to replace it.
Posted By: Naqel Re: Let's talk about durability - 21/10/16 05:36 PM
Originally Posted by GrumpyMcGrump
I don't remember Baldur's Gate I and II or Skyrim ever having had equipment degradation, yet those three titles are considered the undisputed kings of the genre.


Originally Posted by GrumpyMcGrump
Skyrim


While I agree with your general sentiment, Skyrim isn't even close to being one of the best RPG games, and it certainly is behind both Morrowind and New Vegas. Skyrim will not stand the test of time the way Morrowind did, and nobody will remember it's story the way New Vegas is remembered(people already forget Fallout 4 exists).

Not to mention that given the specific goals of equipment maintenance being put into those games(enhancing realism, justifying a skill tree outside of sporadic use, encouraging weapon variety), their absence in Skyrim is actually a detriment(especially when you consider all the other tedious junk that got put into it).
Posted By: Mikus Re: Let's talk about durability - 21/10/16 05:47 PM
I will note that even in Morrowind (which despite its flaws is definitely a classic), the repair mechanic was much less obnoxious than in D:OS as currently implemented: you only had one character's equipment to worry about, and the repair UI was also very convenient - you clicked once on the repair hammer, then could easily click through a sorted list of items to repair all worn and carried equipment (rather than having to move the mouse dozens of times between the hammer/each equipment piece on a player's paper doll/for each of up to 4 party members). Again, though, my personal preference is a "repair all" button (if Larian insists on keeping weapon/armor durability in the game), or better yet, eliminating weapon/armor degradation from combat altogether.
Posted By: meme Re: Let's talk about durability - 21/10/16 06:06 PM
I'm basing the suggestion off of dos-1 loot drop which was plentiful though the best items (for my build) was not so plentiful. Yuo have to make a hard choice what you use and when. Obviously if items wear out the loot drop has to be designed around that mechanic.

Originally Posted by Stabbey
Originally Posted by meme
Havent' read this entire thread; but i kind of like damage to item reducing effectivenss and not having the ability of repairing things to 100%. This means that things will wear out over time. For example if you could only repair things to 95% then after 10 repairs it would be down to 65%; if effectiveness was 1.4 of % then the effectiveness of 10ac would be down to approx 7.8. Type of armor could impact max repairbility. Of course if items wear out too fast this can be quite annoying et all. However, with this system any item worn too many encounter will eventually break which means you will be forced to change items over the course of the game.
-
I don't know how well D:OS-2 items will progress but i know in d:os-1 it was not uncommon for me to find the 'best' item for my character early (amazing number of mid-level items were used until level 18 or 19). Anyway just a thought.


So, most of the items you were using at level 18-19 were found in the mid-game (level 9-12)? If I am not mistaken, loot in D:OS 1 is scaled based on the level of the chest/enemy which drops it and maybe partly on your level. Also, most of the loot in D:OS 1 is RNG-based, found in loot or bought off of vendors. So what that suggests is that you didn't have all that many good loot drops for the last third of the game.

To me, that makes your suggestion of loot degrading into uselessness extra-bizarre.

This is not Diablo or an MMO. The game does not contain respawning enemies and infinite loot, and probably not even a huge amount of unique items compared to a Diablo game. You can't trade good items between characters - you have to take what you get.

It's already annoying to go for ages without finding good weapons - my archer and mage were using their basic level 1 crude weapons for a very long time because nothing good dropped and I couldn't afford much of anything for sale. Adding on degradation so that eventually your gear breaks down just seems like it would be a further punishment for the RNG not giving you anything good to replace it.
Posted By: Grondoth Re: Let's talk about durability - 21/10/16 06:42 PM
I wrote a big huge thing about the importance of identifying in games until I remembered that it's not on the table.

Here's what I think about durability: It's a cool mechanic in games where you're worried about how to stretch your resources, games with survival elements and stuff. I like those games, I modded my Morrowind/Oblivion/Skyrim to have food/water/rest mechanics and put the wonderful Frostfall mod into Skyrim and had a really cool experience. Worrying about your weapons and armour being in shape because you're so far from home and you need them and you can't get back easily to have someone fix them for you is a nifty feeling. Being lost, strained on supplies, and worried about your equipment's integrity can be a fun time.

Durability is also important in dungeon crawlers, as a natural way to create a "you can only go so far" mechanic. Durability, inventory space, quests and potions all work together in those games to make a rhythm of how long you spend out and when you come back. It's very useful there not as an atmospheric thing, but as an integral part of the gameplay loop.

For this game? I donno. I get the idea that you don't want people bashing down everything they see, but durability doesn't help that cause everyone's already probably gonna be at least half wizard and they'll just magic the doors down. I get you want some gold sinks, but it wasn't exactly expensive to keep up armour and weapons, and mages get to skip that whole thing anyway. So I'm really struggling to see how durability fits into this game in particular. I'm not opposed to its existence, but I have a hard time figuring out if the game needs it at all because there's so many ways to not care about it and it doesn't really enhance the flavor of the game.
Posted By: GrumpyMcGrump Re: Let's talk about durability - 21/10/16 07:20 PM
Originally Posted by Naqel

While I agree with your general sentiment, Skyrim isn't even close to being one of the best RPG games, and it certainly is behind both Morrowind and New Vegas. Skyrim will not stand the test of time the way Morrowind did, and nobody will remember it's story the way New Vegas is remembered(people already forget Fallout 4 exists).

Not to mention that given the specific goals of equipment maintenance being put into those games(enhancing realism, justifying a skill tree outside of sporadic use, encouraging weapon variety), their absence in Skyrim is actually a detriment(especially when you consider all the other tedious junk that got put into it).


Let's be objective: whether you like skyrim or not, it's still considered a masterpiece by a wide margin of the audience as well as critics. The story may be run-of-the-mill, but it is wrapped in a really nice package of narrative, environments, and functional mechanics. None of which thankfully included weapon degradation.

As for fallout 3, fallout new vegas, morrowind and oblivion: those games are classics, sure, but let me ask you this: are they classics because of the equipment degradation, or in spite of the equipment degradation? I don't remember anyone having ever said "repairing your equipment surely adds that little touch to the game, that's why it's so perfect!".

Morrowind and Oblivion did have skill trees focused around repairing armor and weapons, sure, but since you prongs and hammers didn't cost that much and didn't weight that much, there simply was no reason to invest in those skills if not doing so just involved having to use those prongs 2-3 more times. Even in F3 and NW it just set the limit of how much damage you could repair, and the mechanic per se was still a pain in the backside. Apart from that, am I the only one finding ridiculous that a measly 10 mm pistol can degrade a set of power armor, usually designed to turn its wearer into a walking tank? And then we had the exact opposite of the spectrum, with deathclaws being capable of making your equipment unusable in 4-5 blows, which forced you to always carry a spare set of power armor along for on-field repairs, with all the ludicrousness that it entailed. But I'm digressing.

What I'm trying to say is: degrading equipment has hardly ever done anything to enhance gameplay or the fun factor, in most cases it's always been a major hassle implemented mostly for strategic reasons, as someone has already pointed out.

D:OS is neither a diablo clone where every 10 monsters you kill you get a weapon drop and you have to strategize your crawl through 10-levels-deep dungeons, nor a mmorpg where equipment degradation is a way to keep the economy in check - and guess what, even there it still doesn't work, as all those players with 400+ millions of gold coins can attest.
Posted By: Naqel Re: Let's talk about durability - 21/10/16 08:05 PM
Originally Posted by GrumpyMcGrump

Let's be objective.

That's exactly why I say Skyrim isn't a good game.
I enjoyed my time with Skyrim, but not because of what was there when I first played it.
It's not a masterpiece, it's a platform for mods, which are it's only redeeming quality.

The same isn't true when talking about Morrowind, for which mods were just a nice bonus, and New Vegas earns it's place in gaming history by being the true successor to the Fallout franchise(as opposed to Fallout 3, which was average at best).

In both those games, gear maintenance was a part of the overall flavor and never to the detriment of the respective games(especially New Vegas, where it was an important mechanic for Survival mode).


As far as Original Sin 2 goes, we do however agree that the repair mechanics do not add to the experience, so let's not derail the thread further.
Posted By: vometia Re: Let's talk about durability - 21/10/16 08:51 PM
I enjoyed Skyrim, although it's probably my least favourite of the Elder Scrolls games I've played; can't quite put my finger on it, I usually describe it as being "charmless". Kind of the anti-Larian in a somewhat intangible way. Having to repair my equipment didn't overly bother me in Oblivion, but I was always glad to get to a high enough level to no longer have repair hammers break, as well as other handy things like Azura's Star and the Skellington Key, which obviated the need for soul gems (well, mostly) and lockpicks respectively. Both of which also got old fast.

That said, I did add things like Survival Suite to make eating, drinking and sleeping necessities, avoided fast travelling and made nights so dark it was impossible to find my way around. Maybe I'm just choosy about my inconveniences.

I also liked that element of New Vegas' survival mode, though I found it slightly lacking in comparison; as for the recent Fallouts, I wouldn't say NV was head and shoulders above the others, I've actually enjoyed all three. All are really good modding platforms too, other than the legendary crashiness of Construction Set or whatever it's called this week.
Posted By: chocolate Re: Let's talk about durability - 21/10/16 09:38 PM
Durability in games like this is pretty much used for RP purposes, aka, making your player feel like their gear has value and can be broken, which immerses them in the experience and their own story in their head.

Free mobile repairs break this immersion. If there will be mobile repairs, it should:

-require materials based on the weapon
-require skill points in either a "repair" skill, or if you're going full on crafting (blacksmithing, bowmaking, yadayada) it should require the skill for making the weapon they want to repair.
-and the repair hammer item should be removed, repairing should be something anyone with the skill can do at any point if they have the materials.

if the mobile repairs are changed this way, there should be a reliable blacksmith (Nebora) who can repair your equipment, the cost being based on the level/rarity of the item and the durability missing.

Basically repairs should always take something the player cares about if they are going to be in the game. Players don't care about random hammers or tongs, they care about money and their skill points. Removing durability is always an option, but just changing it to have more impact will work just as well. It's not that players hate durability they just hate that it has no impact.
Posted By: Mikus Re: Let's talk about durability - 21/10/16 10:27 PM
Originally Posted by chocolate
It's not that players hate durability they just hate that it has no impact.


Like several other players here, I actually dislike durability, but more than the concept itself, I find the current implementation - which requires so much micromanagement - to be extremely tedious/annoying, as I've posted above. I find story, character development, and questing/exploration to be much more challenging and fun than managing inventory. But I'm starting (maybe more than starting) to repeat myself... wink
Posted By: GrumpyMcGrump Re: Let's talk about durability - 21/10/16 10:34 PM
Originally Posted by Mikus
Originally Posted by chocolate
It's not that players hate durability they just hate that it has no impact.


Like several other players here, I actually dislike durability, but more than the concept itself, I find the current implementation - which requires so much micromanagement - to be extremely tedious/annoying, as I've posted above. I find story, character development, and questing/exploration to be much more challenging and fun than managing inventory. But I'm starting (maybe more than starting) to repeat myself... wink


Ditto. But again, implementing durability without turning it into a degrading exercise in micromanagement is almost impossible, especially in a type of game like D:OS.
Posted By: Mikus Re: Let's talk about durability - 21/10/16 10:42 PM
Yeah... I'm starting to feel like Larian is digging itself deeper into the repair and identify mechanics, though I'm not sure exactly why, and I also don't think they add any fun (the main point of a good game) to the rest of the D:OS systems (or at all, IMO). I'm not sure whether the devs are willing to fix/overhaul the systems at this point after having gone down this path for so long with D:OS 1 and now with the "copy-paste" of the mechanics into D:OS 2, especially as there was similar discussion throughout the D:OS 1 alpha and beta, though the fact that they've opened this topic to collect player feedback gives me some hope. Hopefully we'll see some major improvements in a week or two with the next patch.
Posted By: Stabbey Re: Let's talk about durability - 21/10/16 10:56 PM
Originally Posted by chocolate
Durability in games like this is pretty much used for RP purposes, aka, making your player feel like their gear has value and can be broken, which immerses them in the experience and their own story in their head.


...When I think of things which add to my immersion in the game, I think about setting, story, and characters. I do not think "wow before I clicked that button to repair my item, I wasn't feeling the game at all, but now I am completely immersed in this world."

Just saying.


Quote
Basically repairs should always take something the player cares about if they are going to be in the game. Players don't care about random hammers or tongs, they care about money and their skill points. Removing durability is always an option, but just changing it to have more impact will work just as well. It's not that players hate durability they just hate that it has no impact.


Just giving durability impact isn't enough to make it appreciated, it has to be impact which isn't actively more annoying.

I've seen several suggestions which would indeed add impact... but would also add extra layers of micromanagement and/or actively interfere with the fun part of fighting battles to require the players to stop fighting the battles to deal with inventory management (even if all equipment was at full repair before the fight started).
Posted By: chocolate Re: Let's talk about durability - 21/10/16 10:59 PM
Originally Posted by Mikus
Yeah... I'm starting to feel like Larian is digging itself deeper into the repair and identify mechanics, though I'm not sure exactly why, and I also don't think they add any fun (the main point of a good game) to the rest of the D:OS systems (or at all, IMO). I'm not sure whether the devs are willing to fix/overhaul the systems at this point after having gone down this path for so long with D:OS 1 and now with the "copy-paste" of the mechanics into D:OS 2, especially as there was similar discussion throughout the D:OS 1 alpha and beta, though the fact that they've opened this topic to collect player feedback gives me some hope. Hopefully we'll see some major improvements in a week or two with the next patch.


The point of games is not to be fun

lol

jesus christ




anyways. durability is not a fun mechanic, it is an immersion mechanic, the implementation is just wrong so it isn't doing it's job right.

any mechanic made to immerse the player will be something that detracts from their experience in order to make them feel like the game is willing to punish them, so when these mechanics are done wrong they just feel like being punished for no reason (games where things break too easily), being half half-heartedly punished (free mobile repairs), or being punished too much (no all repair)


Posted By: Mikus Re: Let's talk about durability - 21/10/16 11:09 PM
Chocolate - yep, I agree that durability is not fun, but is meant to be "immersive," and regardless, it's currently not working on either level. Again, hopefully the devs already have and will have over the next few days/weeks enough player input to decide on their own how to fix this (e.g. remove durability altogether, confine it to weapons in door/chest bashing situations, eliminate the needless and annoying clicking, etc.). I cautiously think it can only get better than it is right now.
Posted By: aj0413 Re: Let's talk about durability - 21/10/16 11:19 PM
Originally Posted by chocolate
Durability in games like this is pretty much used for RP purposes, aka, making your player feel like their gear has value and can be broken, which immerses them in the experience and their own story in their head.

Free mobile repairs break this immersion. If there will be mobile repairs, it should:

-require materials based on the weapon
-require skill points in either a "repair" skill, or if you're going full on crafting (blacksmithing, bowmaking, yadayada) it should require the skill for making the weapon they want to repair.
-and the repair hammer item should be removed, repairing should be something anyone with the skill can do at any point if they have the materials.

if the mobile repairs are changed this way, there should be a reliable blacksmith (Nebora) who can repair your equipment, the cost being based on the level/rarity of the item and the durability missing.

Basically repairs should always take something the player cares about if they are going to be in the game. Players don't care about random hammers or tongs, they care about money and their skill points. Removing durability is always an option, but just changing it to have more impact will work just as well. It's not that players hate durability they just hate that it has no impact.


So much this XD

I want it to have impact. I want the system to be more expansive so it effects more things. I want players to actually consider as more than just a foot note to ignore till they have to go through the tedious process of fixing gear one by one for no good reason than to do it.

Which is why the above suggestion on Identify and Repair items having 'charges' and your idea and 'identify all' and stuff are all good in my mind

Just to repeat my suggestions/thoughts so they're not buried in the thread:

Lots of people have been asking for either its entire removal or some changes in how it works. People also seem to dislike the idea that upkeep would ever be forced onto them and that using an infinitely usable repair item to repair items is simple tedious and "un-fun."

In the vain of solving this, while keeping the system, I offer a few changes:

> Add a repair all button that uses up repair items in inventory
> Make hammers and tongs consumables
> Make repairing require some points in blacksmithing/crafting and the amount of durability returned per consumable dependent on ability level(s)
> Add in skills/actions that target item durability (ie Sunder from D&D)
> Allow players to deconstruct/recycle components from items for crafting/blacksmithing using repair items. The value of the items obtained dependent on crafting/blacksmithing levels
> An item reaching zero durability is only unusable for a couple turns in combat before regenerating small amount
> A "break" action to tell PCs to auto target a door, chest, etc... till the item is broken without forcing players to repeatedly click
> Reward players for gear upkeep**

**Expanding on The Reward System:

- Example 1: A well maintained sword gains a status effect like 'keen edge' which adds +2 to hit. Items with a keen edge can be poisoned and have other effects added to them. In contrast a poorly maintained sword can't have effects added but hits as per normal.

- Example 2: An armour set kept in top condition adds +10 to armour rating and +1 to intimidation rating in conversations.

- The benefits would vary by weapon or armour type and would go away once durability fell below a percentage (ie 75%).

The above reward and recycle/deconstruction systems are courtesy of BlueGuy and the rest is an amalgamation from a number of users on the forums.



And now some quotes from among this thread on what I though was good input/feedback on changing the system:

A suggestion using RNG instead of durability 'health bar':

Originally Posted by Morbo
Make items unrepairable (but material salvageable).

light door vs cheap sword: 50% door breaks or 50 %sword breaks
light door vs expensive sword: 90% door breaks 10% sword breaks (everything salvageable)
strong door vs cheap sword: 10% door breaks 90% sword breaks (destroying some sword materials/ gems)
strong door vs expensive sword: 50% door breaks or 50%sword breaks (loose one gem)

-> having the chance that you have to rebuild your sword when attempting to break a door (and loosing a gem)-> gold or good crafting


Some more input on the '___ All' buttons:

Originally Posted by Mikus


1) Loremaster/Identify overhaul
The current click-intensive system is extremely tedious, and adds no challenge. If a player has an identifying glass and sufficient Loremaster ability, all items that are picked up should be identified automatically (except those beyond the player's ability).
2) Blacksmithing/Repair overhaul
The current click-intensive system is extremely tedious, and adds no challenge. If a player has a repair hammer and sufficient Blacksmithing ability, a new "Repair All" icon/button usable only outside combat should repair all items equipped by the party with one click (except those too damaged for the player's ability).

Regardless, as long as the pointless repetitive clicking for item repair and identification is somehow fixed, I'll be able to play D:OS 2 without wanting to cry. wink Cheers!


An idea on repair/identify item 'charges':

Originally Posted by Kalrakh
Or other idea:
1) If you want hammers be consumable, give them 'durability'. For example: A repair hammer has a durability of 100 and can therefore repair 100 points of durability, before he gets broken.

2) Instead of a identifying glass, make it some kind of magic crystal or orb. Identifying certain rarity would consume a certain amount of durability/charges.


More on durability related combat skills and making hammers and stuff have 'charges' and be consumable:

Originally Posted by Baardvark


~snip~

Maybe a few abilities that set items to 0 durability could be cool, but mostly player abilities. For example:

Careless Strike: Strike with a high damage and guaranteed crit + bleeding (or whatever), but you break your weapon.

Overcharge (Aerothurge?): Double the stats of a piece of armor for 2-3 turns, but at the end of that time, it breaks. Difficult to balance, but could be cool.

Scales to Bone (Geomancer?): Heal for the remaining durability + X on an equipped item, breaking it.

~snip~

If limited use repair hammers stay, I also agree they should have a repair amount instead of just single use. The higher the blacksmithing, the more you can get out of one hammer. And if that's the case, a repair all equipped items button would remove a ton of tedium. I don't know if it's worth the effort to make durability interesting, though.


A point to consider on RNG vs deterministic ideas for the game..there are two camps and players of these kinds of games normally end up evenly distributed:

Originally Posted by Elwyn
I think that it all boils down to the question: Do you want the game to be completely deterministic where you can carefully plan for each and every situation or do you want the game to throw at you a few nasty surprises (like a weapon breaking in the middle of a fight) which force you to rethink your whole strategy? While I am a strong advocate of the latter, I understand that some people don't like the element of randomness.


Some more on other skills that effect weapons and armor:

Originally Posted by Naqel
Instead of durability and repair hammers, we should have a Disarm and Disrobe status/effects that allow an enemy to strip your gear(forcing AP use to re-equip), and Crowbars that act like super-lockpicks(rare, but require no skill to use).

With Crowbars in game, no door should be breakable through damage.


While I don't think the above quote on new skills should replace durability: I do however think the skills/effects you suggested should be added regardless of what happens, actually. I like the idea of letting people choose to either invest in lockpick or use a crowbar in the same vain as the unlockspell except more rare. The disarm and disrobe effects can be tied into melee fighters to give them more flavor and expend their repitiore of skills since we have such a flush of magic trees

And another quote on making identify use consumables and changing the current system:

Originally Posted by Stabbey

Hmmm... well. if Larian wants to keep resource consumption for Identifying items, this idea isn't that bad. I'd change it up a bit though:

- Added consumable Identify scrolls. These are sold and can appear in loot.
- Identify scrolls can be used without points into Loremaster.
- Loremaster requires Identify glasses to use
- Identify glasses are no longer consumed on use, you can use them as much as you like
- Identify glasses come in 5 different qualities, which allows you to identify items up to and including X level of the item. ...Actually, perhaps scrolls also come in the same five types?
- Identify glasses are no longer found in random loot, can only be bought from merchants or found pre-placed.
- Identify glasses price is increased significantly, and each higher level of glasses has a higher price which also increases significantly from the previous level.

If Larian wants a gold sink for identification, this offers three: Merchant identification, one-shot-scroll identification, and reusable, but expensive identification.

Merchant identification is probably the most useless since it's pay-per-item and you need to travel there to use. But they can identify anything (if scrolls come in 5 types as well). Scrolls are not that expensive individually, but the costs add up, however, Loremaster is not required. The glasses can be used forever, but require points into Loremaster, and are expensive to buy and are not found in loot, and can only be bought or found in pre-placed locations.

I can see people hating the idea of 5 different levels of identification glasses (and possibly scrolls), though.



We can definitely see some trends in all the responses

> Repair/identify all button
> Durability/Equipment related skills
> Repair/identify items being consumables with 'charges'
> Some special items that go around the skill req for normal actions such as lockpicking/identifying


* Side note: items breaking/being lost when breaking open a chest is something that should be a thing, though I thought it already was
Posted By: chocolate Re: Let's talk about durability - 21/10/16 11:45 PM
Quote
* Side note: items breaking/being lost when breaking open a chest is something that should be a thing, though I thought it already was


Items shouldn't be lost when breaking things, that's retarded and overly punishing. The major downside to breaking open chests should be that it is loud, and that's it. Durability damage from breaking things should be the same as hitting anything else in the game with your weapon.

If Larian wants to implement some kind of fragile items list into the game, items that would be broken from simply being shaken around (snow globes, my favorite weapon), then sure those can get smashed if you smash a chest and they're in it.
Posted By: Mikus Re: Let's talk about durability - 21/10/16 11:49 PM
Originally Posted by aj0413

We can definitely see some trends in all the responses

> Repair/identify all button
> Durability/Equipment related skills
> Repair/identify items being consumables with 'charges'
> Some special items that go around the skill req for normal actions such as lockpicking/identifying


aj0413 - thanks for this summary. I've been asking for the "repair/identify all button" since 2014, and the other ideas could also be improvements if implemented thoughtfully (as long as the repair/identify item "charges" aren't too punishing, assuming the devs insist on including consumable repair/identify items as yet another gold sink - though I personally think that's completely unnecessary and another step in the wrong direction). It'll be interesting to see where this all goes in the next patch.
Posted By: aj0413 Re: Let's talk about durability - 21/10/16 11:58 PM
Originally Posted by chocolate
Quote
* Side note: items breaking/being lost when breaking open a chest is something that should be a thing, though I thought it already was


Items shouldn't be lost when breaking things, that's retarded and overly punishing. The major downside to breaking open chests should be that it is loud, and that's it. Durability damage from breaking things should be the same as hitting anything else in the game with your weapon.

If Larian wants to implement some kind of fragile items list into the game, items that would be broken from simply being shaken around (snow globes, my favorite weapon), then sure those can get smashed if you smash a chest and they're in it.


What? Who said durability shouldn't be lost when hitting anything else?

I was implying that when you break open a chest for loot their should be some loss in the value of what you get.

Otherwise, why would people bother lockpicking and such on chests they find in the field. There're many chests in D:OS 1 where making noise woudlnt be a loss cause the chest was in enemy territory and you killed everyone, there was no one around, the chest belonged to no one, or it was easy to get the NPCs to leave the area.

Without some way of making lockpicking any individual chest a better general option than bashing it open, you're hurting the mechanics existence outside of special exceptions.
Posted By: Mikus Re: Let's talk about durability - 22/10/16 12:04 AM
Right - if the only penalty to bashing/blasting open chests was the noise, as already mentioned, people could (and would) just pick up the chest and move it to a place with no NPCs nearby, then crack it open with no penalty. That's why it's been suggested (and I believe already implemented in game) that at least the fragile stuff in the chest should break as an added penalty to not trying to pick the lock. Doors of course only need the noise penalty, as they can't be moved around.
Posted By: chocolate Re: Let's talk about durability - 22/10/16 12:08 AM
Quote
What? Who said durability shouldn't be lost when hitting anything else?

I was implying that when you break open a chest for loot their should be some loss in the value of what you get.

Otherwise, why would people bother lockpicking and such on chests they find in the field. There're many chests in D:OS 1 where making noise woudlnt be a loss cause the chest was in enemy territory and you killed everyone, there was no one around, the chest belonged to no one, or it was easy to get the NPCs to leave the area.

Without some way of making lockpicking any individual chest a better general option than bashing it open, you're hurting the mechanics existence outside of special exceptions.


I knew what you meant I just typed that weird. I was just adding on the end separately that durability damage shouldn't be more from breaking open chests.

And yes, most of the time noise wouldn't be a problem. That's the point. There shouldn't be any downside to breaking open chests other than noise, lock-picking is for opening chests where noise is important, not for opening chests in the field. If you happen to be good at lock-picking and find a chest in the field that's locked, sure, go ahead and lock-pick and save some durability. But breaking it should get you the same things as lock-picking it.

Quote
Right - if the only penalty to bashing/blasting open chests was the noise, as already mentioned, people could (and would) just pick up the chest and move it to a place with no NPCs nearby, then crack it open with no penalty. That's why it's been suggested (and I believe already implemented in game) that at least the fragile stuff in the chest should break as an added penalty to not trying to pick the lock. Doors of course only need the noise penalty, as they can't be moved around.


I'm not really sure if this is a bad thing though. There can still be unbreakable chests so that you would need lockpicking, but I think players should be rewarded for being clever and moving chests with teleport or pocketing them and then smashing them further away.

But I do agree that fragile things should be broken. What kind of things are you thinking of as fragile?
Posted By: Mikus Re: Let's talk about durability - 22/10/16 12:18 AM
Originally Posted by chocolate
I'm not really sure if this is a bad thing though. There can still be unbreakable chests so that you would need lockpicking, but I think players should be rewarded for being clever and moving chests with teleport or pocketing them and then smashing them further away.

But I do agree that fragile things should be broken. What kind of things are you thinking of as fragile?


I actually don't disagree with you - as with the repair and identify mechanics, I find I'm trying to work within the (IMO somewhat artificial) limitations the devs seem to have placed on the gameplay. And the definition of fragility would be tricky if the "breakage" mechanic is intended to be a real penalty, as (for example) a super-valuable magical weapon in a chest shouldn't break (unless that +200 Axe of Heavenly Doom is actually made of balsa wood), while a possibly cheap potion might - rendering it not much of a penalty after all, especially at higher levels. I guess I'm just trying to understand and justify why people want these kinds of "immersive" things in the game in the first place.
Posted By: Naqel Re: Let's talk about durability - 22/10/16 12:24 AM
Originally Posted by aj0413

We can definitely see some trends in all the responses

> Repair/identify all button
> Durability/Equipment related skills
> Repair/identify items being consumables with 'charges'
> Some special items that go around the skill req for normal actions such as lockpicking/identifying


Let me just fix this real quick, to put it into a more useful format/wording:

-Durability is currently far too detrimental to the overall experience, compared to the benefits it provides as a balancing tool.

-Durability isn't a critical feature, and it wouldn't be a big loss for it to be removed wholesale.

-Much of the current issues could be alleviated by introducing some degree of automation to the maintenance process.

-Alternate systems that resolve the tediousness while retaining the functional benefits of the old one could be pursued.
Posted By: chocolate Re: Let's talk about durability - 22/10/16 12:36 AM
Originally Posted by Mikus
I actually don't disagree with you - as with the repair and identify mechanics, I find I'm trying to work within the (IMO somewhat artificial) limitations the devs seem to have placed on the gameplay. And the definition of fragility would be tricky if the "breakage" mechanic is intended to be a real penalty, as (for example) a super-valuable magical weapon in a chest shouldn't break (unless that +200 Axe of Heavenly Doom is actually made of balsa wood), while a possibly cheap potion might - rendering it not much of a penalty after all, especially at higher levels. I guess I'm just trying to understand and justify why people want these kinds of "immersive" things in the game in the first place.


I don't think it would be so bad for any potion of any level to always have a chance to be broken if you're smashing things. They are made of glass, so, ya kno.

And it's just the genre. rpg literally stands for role playing game, so the game should be developed to get the player into that role, the role of their character existing in a fantasy world. Immersion is a delicate balance and it's far too easy to break. It just hinges on making the player feel like they can be punished fairly for their actions, but also rewarded fairly.

The punishment of noise and the possibility of breaking potions from smashing things is fair, and when a player who is new to the game smashes a chest with a gigantic hammer and then finds the ground covered in healing potion, they can only sigh and say "Yeah that's my fault." And this kind of thing immerses them in the game, makes them realize that the game is watching them and willing to punish or reward their actions in it, makes them act more like their character would.

And back to the free mobile repairs, this isn't fair. This feels like we don't need the game world anymore, we're fine on our own, we have magical god hammers. Players stop acting like their character would and start acting like they're playing a video game instead of role playing in a fantasy world.
Posted By: aj0413 Re: Let's talk about durability - 22/10/16 12:39 AM
Originally Posted by Naqel
Originally Posted by aj0413

We can definitely see some trends in all the responses

> Repair/identify all button
> Durability/Equipment related skills
> Repair/identify items being consumables with 'charges'
> Some special items that go around the skill req for normal actions such as lockpicking/identifying


Let me just fix this real quick, to put it into a more useful format/wording:

-Durability is currently far too detrimental to the overall experience, compared to the benefits it provides as a balancing tool.

-Durability isn't a critical feature, and it wouldn't be a big loss for it to be removed wholesale.

-Much of the current issues could be alleviated by introducing some degree of automation to the maintenance process.

-Alternate systems that resolve the tediousness while retaining the functional benefits of the old one could be pursued.


The summary was targeted towards the discussion of evolving the current system, instead of removing it. Therefore, I cut out that input.

It's a simple and straightforward stance with no need for summary of multiple posts rehashing it after all.

The stances involved on evolving the current system is a bit more complicated and could use some structure, though, since it's more open ended.

I thought that was implied with the rest of the post, given the direction I was headed towards?

As for your points:

- It's not really 'far too' detrimental to anything, it's annoying at worst and slightly tedious at best for those who are actually complaining. It's a bit of a footnote to some of us, something we ignore to others, something we dislike to some, and something they actively hate with a passion to a few.

- It's not a 'critical' feature, no. But to say nothing would be loss is a misnomer. Obviously, some of us are attached to the idea of durability, even if we feel the mechanics in game need work. So there's definite 'loss' for some of us. Refer back to the first quote in my wall of text for why that is. The 'quantity' of loss is nuanced as while some here see it as a purely mechanical feature, others here see it in terms of RP value. You can't really generalize that.

- You're other two points are accurate.
Posted By: chocolate Re: Let's talk about durability - 22/10/16 12:43 AM
Can everyone please read this, idk, set it as your signature or something tape it to your butt so people see it and go like "oh yeah right."

durability is for immersion in an rpg
durability is not fun
durability does not balance anything
it immerses you


in a survival game, it is used for balance

this isn't a survival game
Posted By: aj0413 Re: Let's talk about durability - 22/10/16 12:55 AM
Originally Posted by chocolate
Can everyone please read this, idk, set it as your signature or something tape it to your butt so people see it and go like "oh yeah right."

durability is for immersion in an rpg
durability is not fun
durability does not balance anything
it immerses you


in a survival game, it is used for balance

this isn't a survival game


hahaha :P Never quite thought of it in that wording, but that's a good way to put it.

Doesn't mean we can't evolve it to be more 'fun,' though. There've been some good suggestions on how to add to it to both improve quality of life and make it more nuanced and feel like it has some importance and strategic.

Going back to the chest thing:

Originally Posted by chocolate
Originally Posted by Mikus
I actually don't disagree with you - as with the repair and identify mechanics, I find I'm trying to work within the (IMO somewhat artificial) limitations the devs seem to have placed on the gameplay. And the definition of fragility would be tricky if the "breakage" mechanic is intended to be a real penalty, as (for example) a super-valuable magical weapon in a chest shouldn't break (unless that +200 Axe of Heavenly Doom is actually made of balsa wood), while a possibly cheap potion might - rendering it not much of a penalty after all, especially at higher levels. I guess I'm just trying to understand and justify why people want these kinds of "immersive" things in the game in the first place.


I don't think it would be so bad for any potion of any level to always have a chance to be broken if you're smashing things. They are made of glass, so, ya kno.

And it's just the genre. rpg literally stands for role playing game, so the game should be developed to get the player into that role, the role of their character existing in a fantasy world. Immersion is a delicate balance and it's far too easy to break. It just hinges on making the player feel like they can be punished fairly for their actions, but also rewarded fairly.

The punishment of noise and the possibility of breaking potions from smashing things is fair, and when a player who is new to the game smashes a chest with a gigantic hammer and then finds the ground covered in healing potion, they can only sigh and say "Yeah that's my fault." And this kind of thing immerses them in the game, makes them realize that the game is watching them and willing to punish or reward their actions in it, makes them act more like their character would.

And back to the free mobile repairs, this isn't fair. This feels like we don't need the game world anymore, we're fine on our own, we have magical god hammers. Players stop acting like their character would and start acting like they're playing a video game instead of role playing in a fantasy world.


I totally agree with this, but there are limits to game balance smirk In this case, it's more of a question: Should mechanical balance precede RP value, or should RP value precede mechanical balance?

Most times, I'm of the former group. In this case, I lean more towards the later cause I don't like the idea of abusing bashing things. Just like how I don't like the idea of abusing CC cause of the new armor system 100% chance after armor is gone.

How about if they included more fragile but powerful unique items in the loot around the game? Such as the stone sword from game one, but not as bad as 1/1 Durability.

Example:
A glass, elven long sword with mystical enchantments? Some flavor fluff in the description could could be: "Made more as a piece of art to challenge their skills, than for any practical purpose, this weapon is a true masterwork of the ages. It's fragile nature does not diminish it's sharp edge or the abilities it was granted, however."

Furthermore, items like that would require more upkeep and thus a much closer watch on durability and repairing. The exchange would be for the power inherent in the item.

This means players could be rewarded for increasing crafting skills so they can maintain such a weapon and that they'd have to choose if the cost of maintaining such a weapon was worth it (1) & whether or not the risk of bashing open a box and loosing out on such a unique item was worth it (2).

It's a more nuanced approach than the whole sale 'break some of the loot inside' thing and it can be fit in using RP smoothly. It'd also be rare enough to make some players blame themselves without missing too much or make those who invest in lockpicking feel rewarded for their efforts with special stuff.
Posted By: error3 Re: Let's talk about durability - 22/10/16 01:05 AM
Originally Posted by chocolate
Can everyone please read this, idk, set it as your signature or something tape it to your butt so people see it and go like "oh yeah right."

durability is for immersion in an rpg
durability is not fun
durability does not balance anything
it immerses you


in a survival game, it is used for balance

this isn't a survival game


Let's not get shackled by 'realism' to the point of introducing unfun tedium.

Futhermore, the repair process goes like this.
I open my inventory
I right-click on an item with yellow/orange indicator on it
I see a bar go from empty to full in about a second
I completely lose a repair hammer

Does any of that sound immersive to any of you?
It wasn't immersive for me either.

Edit: If the system is changed to provide a richer experience, keeping it could be good, but as-is it's a case of less-is-more.
Posted By: chocolate Re: Let's talk about durability - 22/10/16 01:10 AM
Quote
I totally agree with this, but there are limits to game balance smirk In this case, it's more of a question: Should mechanical balance precede RP value, or should RP value precede mechanical balance?

Most times, I'm of the former group. In this case, I lean more towards the later cause I don't like the idea of abusing bashing things. Just like how I don't like the idea of abusing CC cause of the new armor system 100% chance after armor is gone.

How about if they included more fragile but powerful unique items in the loot around the game? Such as the stone sword from game one, but not as bad as 1/1 Durability.

Example:
A glass, elven long sword with mystical enchantments? Some flavor fluff in the description could could be: "Made more as a piece of art to challenge their skills, than for any practical purpose, this weapon is a true masterwork of the ages. It's fragile nature does not diminish it's sharp edge or the abilities it was granted, however."

Furthermore, items like that would require more upkeep and thus a much closer watch on durability and repairing. The exchange would be for the power inherent in the item.

This means players could be rewarded for increasing crafting skills so they can maintain such a weapon and that they'd have to choose if the cost of maintaining such a weapon was worth it (1) & whether or not the risk of bashing open a box and loosing out on such a unique item was worth it (2).

It's a more nuanced approach than the whole sale 'break some of the loot inside' thing and it can be fit in using RP smoothly. It'd also be rare enough to make some players blame themselves without missing too much or make those who invest in lockpicking feel rewarded for their efforts with special stuff.


Mechanical balance and rp value should never be fighting each other they should be working together.

Everybody is thinking that players need to be punished for choosing to smash things instead of lock-picking them but they don't. The whole point of lock-picking is stealth and finesse, that's what you gain for using it, that's what you lose for not.
That's it.
If there's a chest in a house you want you're either going to have to lock-pick it or find some clever way to sneak it out and break it somewhere else, otherwise you're going to have to deal with the people around that chest who don't want you going in it.

And speaking of the carrying out thing, NPCs should be stopping you from just pocketing something and walking away. Like if you put a chest from an empty house in your pocket and start leaving the house, if the owner sees you with the chest in your inventory or they see the chest not where it belongs, they should take it and put it back and possibly get the guards if they found it on the player.

The game just needs to make it harder to get away with smashing something as opposed to lock-picking it. If a player succeeds in smashing the thing they shouldn't be punished at that point, they should be rewarded for finding their own way to play the game.

I'm sorry but I don't think weapons that are inside a chest should ever be broken from bashing it. If a game had a glass sword that you could permanently break by smashing the chest it was in, with no indication it was in there, it would just feel like the game was going out of it's way to find arbitrary ways to punish you.

There could be some very unique weapons that might break faster but this shouldn't be a regular thing.

Quote
Let's not get shackled by 'realism' to the point of introducing unfun tedium.

Futhermore, the repair process goes like this.
I open my inventory
I right-click on an item with yellow/orange indicator on it
I see a bar go from empty to full in about a second
I completely lose a repair hammer

Does any of that sound immersive to any of you?
It wasn't immersive for me either.

Edit: If the system is changed to provide a richer experience, keeping it could be good, but as-is it's a case of less-is-more.


This talking on a forum thing is so messy. I've already said that mobile repairs shouldn't exist, but it's silly to expect everyone to go back and read all 4 pages of posts, so it's all just messy messy messy.

But these aren't suggestions or advocating for anything in the game, or even related to this game other than that Divinity is also an rpg. I'm just saying how durability is used in rpgs, what it's supposed to do.
Posted By: Mikus Re: Let's talk about durability - 22/10/16 01:11 AM
It must be a misunderstanding on my part of what some folks are trying to say here, but I don't agree that anything (including "immersion") should ever be a higher priority than good ol' "fun" in any game. Immersive mechanics like item durability (and every gameplay aspect) should somehow contribute to making a game more interesting and fun to play - not serve as an end in itself. I could design a game about my day in the office where the player would be really immersed in the experience of sitting in my cubicle. They'd feel like they're really using up office supplies, and really managing my Microsoft Outlook email box, and really avoiding my boss. And nobody would play that game. Sure, silly example, but the general idea is there. But maybe I'm old-fashioned. think

Originally Posted by chocolate
And speaking of the carrying out thing, NPCs should be stopping you from just pocketing something and walking away. Like if you put a chest from an empty house in your pocket and start leaving the house, if the owner sees you with the chest in your inventory or they see the chest not where it belongs, they should take it and put it back and possibly get the guards if they found it on the player.

...If a game had a glass sword that you could permanently break by smashing the chest it was in, with no indication it was in there, it would just feel like the game was going out of it's way to find arbitrary ways to punish you.


Yep.
Posted By: aj0413 Re: Let's talk about durability - 22/10/16 01:16 AM
Originally Posted by chocolate
Quote
I totally agree with this, but there are limits to game balance smirk In this case, it's more of a question: Should mechanical balance precede RP value, or should RP value precede mechanical balance?

Most times, I'm of the former group. In this case, I lean more towards the later cause I don't like the idea of abusing bashing things. Just like how I don't like the idea of abusing CC cause of the new armor system 100% chance after armor is gone.

How about if they included more fragile but powerful unique items in the loot around the game? Such as the stone sword from game one, but not as bad as 1/1 Durability.

Example:
A glass, elven long sword with mystical enchantments? Some flavor fluff in the description could could be: "Made more as a piece of art to challenge their skills, than for any practical purpose, this weapon is a true masterwork of the ages. It's fragile nature does not diminish it's sharp edge or the abilities it was granted, however."

Furthermore, items like that would require more upkeep and thus a much closer watch on durability and repairing. The exchange would be for the power inherent in the item.

This means players could be rewarded for increasing crafting skills so they can maintain such a weapon and that they'd have to choose if the cost of maintaining such a weapon was worth it (1) & whether or not the risk of bashing open a box and loosing out on such a unique item was worth it (2).

It's a more nuanced approach than the whole sale 'break some of the loot inside' thing and it can be fit in using RP smoothly. It'd also be rare enough to make some players blame themselves without missing too much or make those who invest in lockpicking feel rewarded for their efforts with special stuff.


If there's a chest in a house you want you're either going to have to lock-pick it or find some clever way to sneak it out and break it somewhere else, otherwise you're going to have to deal with the people around that chest who don't want you going in it.

And speaking of the carrying out thing, NPCs should be stopping you from just pocketing something and walking away. Like if you put a chest from an empty house in your pocket and start leaving the house, if the owner sees you with the chest in your inventory or they see the chest not where it belongs, they should take it and put it back and possibly get the guards if they found it on the player.

The game just needs to make it harder to get away with smashing something as opposed to lock-picking it. If a player succeeds in smashing the thing they shouldn't be punished at that point, they should be rewarded for finding their own way to play the game.

I'm sorry but I don't think weapons that are inside a chest should ever be broken from bashing it. If a game had a glass sword that you could permanently break by smashing the chest it was in, with no indication it was in there, it would just feel like the game was going out of it's way to find arbitrary ways to punish you.

There could be some very unique weapons that might break faster but this shouldn't be a regular thing.


Uh, oops. Meant I value RP over mechanical balance, but yes they should go hand in hand.

I wasn't implying that the glass sword thing would be common. It'd be rare occurrence. Just something a bit special to reward not bashing every box. I don't think it'd be that punishing if it was kept to being rare event.

Making things harder to get away with would also be a good solution.

EDIT:
Also the forum messiness is why I made the long post quoting everyone smile <- Thought it might help
Posted By: chocolate Re: Let's talk about durability - 22/10/16 01:19 AM
Originally Posted by Mikus
It must be a misunderstanding on my part of what some folks are trying to say here, but I don't agree that anything (including "immersion") should ever be a higher priority than good ol' "fun" in any game. Immersive mechanics like item durability (and every gameplay aspect) should somehow contribute to making a game more interesting and fun to play - not serve as an end in itself. I could design a game about my day in the office where the player would be really immersed in the experience of sitting in my cubicle. They'd feel like they're really using up office supplies, and really managing my Microsoft Outlook email box, and really avoiding my boss. And nobody would play that game. Sure, silly example, but the general idea is there. But maybe I'm old-fashioned. think

Anyway, lots of interesting and useful discussion in this topic.


I'm going to give you a quiz because you're annoying me. One point per question anything below a five is a fail.

Is the point of art to be fun?
Is the point of writing to be fun?
Is the point of film to be fun?
Is the point of games to be fun?

Quote
EDIT:
Also the forum messiness is why I made the long post quoting everyone smile <- Thought it might help

I wasn't implying that the glass sword thing would be common. It'd be rare occurrence. Just something a bit special to reward not bashing every box. I don't think it'd be that punishing if it was kept to being rare event.


It doesn't nobody will read it it's too much.

And with the glass sword it would be fine if when you smashed the box you just found the glass sword already in need of repair before you could use it, but otherwise it comes off as a gimmick even if it's only once in the entire game.
Posted By: Mikus Re: Let's talk about durability - 22/10/16 01:22 AM
Originally Posted by chocolate
I'm going to give you a quiz because you're annoying me.


First, take a deep breath: we're discussing a video game. Also, I'm not trying to annoy you; I just happen to have a different opinion than you. And yes, I do believe a game should be fun. Of course, everyone is entitled to a different opinion about what should/can be fun in a game. Hence, forum discussion. No worries!
Posted By: chocolate Re: Let's talk about durability - 22/10/16 01:25 AM
Originally Posted by Mikus
Originally Posted by chocolate
I'm going to give you a quiz because you're annoying me.


First, take a deep breath: we're discussing a video game. Also, I'm not trying to annoy you; I just happen to have a different opinion than you. And yes, I do believe a game should be fun. Of course, everyone is entitled to a different opinion about what should/can be fun in a game. Hence, forum discussion. No worries!


srry u failed. now im gonna go off topic

I guess most people just don't think about this. Pretty much every medium when first introduced went through a phase of people believing that it wasn't a serious medium, or that it should just be one type of thing.

When writing was first introduced as stories it was only as poems, and it was seen as silly. When prose was brought around (the majority of what books are now, stories written with no rhyming or form), it was seen as something childish and vulgar compared to poetry.

Fast forward, now we have games. Games should be fun! That's an easy assumption, most games are made to be fun. But what a game actually is is "an interactive experience." Art gives you an image, writing gives you a story, film gives you a story that you can experience as an audience member, and now games give you an experience that you can interact with.

The point is not to be fun, it's to experience something through interaction. And going from poetry back to durability, that's why durability exists, because games don't have to be fun, and with an rpg the goal doesn't always have to be fun, but when it is that fun is created through things that couldn't be directly classified as "fun".
Posted By: Mikus Re: Let's talk about durability - 22/10/16 01:25 AM
Originally Posted by chocolate
srry u failed


Nah, just not playing your game. Peace!
Posted By: error3 Re: Let's talk about durability - 22/10/16 01:27 AM
Originally Posted by Mikus
It must be a misunderstanding on my part of what some folks are trying to say here, but I don't agree that anything (including "immersion") should ever be a higher priority than good ol' "fun" in any game. Immersive mechanics like item durability (and every gameplay aspect) should somehow contribute to making a game more interesting and fun to play - not serve as an end in itself. I could design a game about my day in the office where the player would be really immersed in the experience of sitting in my cubicle. They'd feel like they're really using up office supplies, and really managing my Microsoft Outlook email box, and really avoiding my boss. And nobody would play that game. Sure, silly example, but the general idea is there. But maybe I'm old-fashioned. think


Funny post Mikus.
I can't believe this had to be said.
Video games are absolutely primarily for fun. There's no utility, it's not a training simulation, it's fun or I'll play stop playing and go buy a fun game.

Posted By: Mikus Re: Let's talk about durability - 22/10/16 01:28 AM
Originally Posted by error3
Funny post Mikus.
I can't believe this had to be said.
Video games are absolutely primarily for fun. There's no utility, it's not a training simulation, it's fun or I'll play stop playing and go buy a fun game.


Damn, another sale lost for my game. Looks like I'll need to stick to the day job... wink
Posted By: aj0413 Re: Let's talk about durability - 22/10/16 01:31 AM
Originally Posted by chocolate
Originally Posted by Mikus
It must be a misunderstanding on my part of what some folks are trying to say here, but I don't agree that anything (including "immersion") should ever be a higher priority than good ol' "fun" in any game. Immersive mechanics like item durability (and every gameplay aspect) should somehow contribute to making a game more interesting and fun to play - not serve as an end in itself. I could design a game about my day in the office where the player would be really immersed in the experience of sitting in my cubicle. They'd feel like they're really using up office supplies, and really managing my Microsoft Outlook email box, and really avoiding my boss. And nobody would play that game. Sure, silly example, but the general idea is there. But maybe I'm old-fashioned. think

Anyway, lots of interesting and useful discussion in this topic.


I'm going to give you a quiz because you're annoying me. One point per question anything below a five is a fail.

Is the point of art to be fun?
Is the point of writing to be fun?
Is the point of film to be fun?
Is the point of games to be fun?

Quote
EDIT:
Also the forum messiness is why I made the long post quoting everyone smile <- Thought it might help

I wasn't implying that the glass sword thing would be common. It'd be rare occurrence. Just something a bit special to reward not bashing every box. I don't think it'd be that punishing if it was kept to being rare event.


It doesn't nobody will read it it's too much.

And with the glass sword it would be fine if when you smashed the box you just found the glass sword already in need of repair before you could use it, but otherwise it comes off as a gimmick even if it's only once in the entire game.


Eh, I think you're being a bit harsh in forum discussion with those with opposing views.

Also, *shrug* I always read everything in the wall of text. Considering the degree of seriousness some supposedly treat these forum threads, I'd semi-expect at least a skimming so that they don't wildly shoot blindly at points already addressed and covered. That helps no one.

And, I like gimmicks. *shrug* I liked what they did with the idea of the Stone Sword and thought more unique things like that would be nice. The talking Oyster was a gimick as well since you could eat it for +15% water res permanently but I liked it as well.

Gimmicks can add to a game as long as they're kept infrequent and are special.
Posted By: aj0413 Re: Let's talk about durability - 22/10/16 01:32 AM
Originally Posted by error3
Originally Posted by Mikus
It must be a misunderstanding on my part of what some folks are trying to say here, but I don't agree that anything (including "immersion") should ever be a higher priority than good ol' "fun" in any game. Immersive mechanics like item durability (and every gameplay aspect) should somehow contribute to making a game more interesting and fun to play - not serve as an end in itself. I could design a game about my day in the office where the player would be really immersed in the experience of sitting in my cubicle. They'd feel like they're really using up office supplies, and really managing my Microsoft Outlook email box, and really avoiding my boss. And nobody would play that game. Sure, silly example, but the general idea is there. But maybe I'm old-fashioned. think


Funny post Mikus.
I can't believe this had to be said.
Video games are absolutely primarily for fun. There's no utility, it's not a training simulation, it's fun or I'll play stop playing and go buy a fun game.



RP value does constitue part of the fun for some of us smirk

Which means we like immersive qualities. Heck, it's why I like the survival elements in fallout, on some playthroughs.

How immersive and how harsh the realism behind those RP mechanics are tend to dictate how I rate them. I think of durability as not being negative per se and thus very much enthusiastic to simply improving it then removing it
Posted By: Mikus Re: Let's talk about durability - 22/10/16 01:36 AM
Originally Posted by aj0413

RP value does constitue part of the fun for some of us smirk

Which means we like immersive qualities. Heck, it's why I like the survival elements in fallout.


Yeah, I totally get that - I actually liked the way the survival elements were implemented in the old Fallout games, and didn't mind (for example) the repair mechanics in Morrowind and Oblivion. I think the UI and the gameplay reasons for those mechanics were much more tied in to the "fun factor" of the games' settings, if that makes sense. To me, the current similar mechanics in D:OS 1 and 2 seem more "tacked-on" for their own sake and annoying, which I guess is one of the reasons for this forum discussion in the first place!
Posted By: aj0413 Re: Let's talk about durability - 22/10/16 01:40 AM
Originally Posted by Mikus
Originally Posted by aj0413

RP value does constitue part of the fun for some of us smirk

Which means we like immersive qualities. Heck, it's why I like the survival elements in fallout.


Yeah, I totally get that - I actually liked the way the survival elements were implemented in the old Fallout games, and didn't mind (for example) the repair mechanics in Morrowind and Oblivion. I think the UI and the gameplay reasons for those mechanics were much more tied in to the "fun factor" of the games' settings, if that makes sense. To me, the current similar mechanics in D:OS 1 and 2 seem more "tacked-on" for their own sake and annoying, which I guess is one of the reasons for this forum discussion in the first place!


Pretty much. I like the fact durability is thing cause of RP, but the tacked on quality is an issue everyone can agree with.

Some here think that mechanical fun is the be all end all and thus would just remove it.

Others like it for our own reasons (RP being mine) and would much rather see it developed more fully.
Posted By: Mikus Re: Let's talk about durability - 22/10/16 01:45 AM
Originally Posted by aj0413

Others like it for our own reasons (RP being mine) and would much rather see it developed more fully.


I can get behind that concept. I keep repeating myself (getting old and senile), but as long as they fix the obnoxious... interminable... ridiculous... clicking just to repair all the party's equipment after every battle, and maybe (dev resources permitting) coherently include some of the RP/flavor ideas from this topic, it'd be a gigantic improvement over D:OS 1 IMO.
Posted By: Kalrakh Re: Let's talk about durability - 22/10/16 02:25 AM
I think the definition of 'fun' needs to be made.

Fun in definition of enjoyable: yes
Fun in definition of funny: no

No game is just 'fun'. Some are challenging and quite a pain in the ass. Some are light hearted and other extremely realistic and immersive. Train simulator and goat simulator are both games and even both simulations, and still they are totally different. Train simulator is extremely realistic, while goat simulator is ridiculously silly. Some would call the first fun, other the second, a third group would perhaps even call both fun, while another group like me probably would never play either of it.

'Fun' is no exact definition. Fun is subjective, everyone has a different taste. That is why games are art like drawing. No game will ever be 'fun' for everyone. So defining a game has to be fun, does define nothing at all, because what is fun for you could be annoying or boring for someone else.

That is the same reason, why opinions on CC divide sometimes quite heavily aswell.
Posted By: Mikus Re: Let's talk about durability - 22/10/16 02:29 AM
Originally Posted by Kalrakh
No game will ever be 'fun' for everyone. So defining a game has to be fun, does define nothing at all, because what is fun for you could be annoying or boring for someone else.

That is the same reason, why opinions on CC divide sometimes quite heavily aswell.


Sure. That's why game developers (Larian included) have their work cut out for them: you'll never please all of the players all of the time, but they can try to strike a balance that gets the biggest bang for the buck when it comes to their target audience's enjoyment of the product. I don't envy them the job!
Posted By: Stabbey Re: Let's talk about durability - 22/10/16 02:54 AM
Originally Posted by error3

Let's not get shackled by 'realism' to the point of introducing unfun tedium.

Futhermore, the repair process goes like this.
I open my inventory
I right-click on an item with yellow/orange indicator on it
I see a bar go from empty to full in about a second
I completely lose a repair hammer

Does any of that sound immersive to any of you?
It wasn't immersive for me either.


I agree with every part of this post. When I think of things which add to my immersion in the game, I think about setting, story, and characters. I do not think "wow before I clicked that button to repair my item, I wasn't feeling the game at all, but now I am completely immersed in this world."

I can't fathom how "MUST CLICK BUTTON TO MAGICALLY REPAIR BROKEN ITEM" is the breaking point for immersion, before any of those other things.

Originally Posted by chocolate

I'm going to give you a quiz because you're annoying me. One point per question anything below a five is a fail.

[snip]

Is the point of games to be fun?


YES, OF COURSE. I don't understand how you can even think that the answer to that is "no".

Now hopefully you will stop trying to derail the thread by continuing to insist on defining the point of games.
Posted By: Mikus Re: Let's talk about durability - 22/10/16 03:04 AM
Back on topic (sort of) - since I'm guessing there will be fixes/improvements to repair/durability (and maybe identification, since the mechanic seems very similar to me) in the next patch, can someone confirm when Larian has said it should be out? I believe in a week or two, but if nobody knows for sure, no problem; just curious.
Posted By: aj0413 Re: Let's talk about durability - 22/10/16 03:20 AM
Originally Posted by Stabbey
Originally Posted by error3

Let's not get shackled by 'realism' to the point of introducing unfun tedium.

Futhermore, the repair process goes like this.
I open my inventory
I right-click on an item with yellow/orange indicator on it
I see a bar go from empty to full in about a second
I completely lose a repair hammer

Does any of that sound immersive to any of you?
It wasn't immersive for me either.


I agree with every part of this post. When I think of things which add to my immersion in the game, I think about setting, story, and characters. I do not think "wow before I clicked that button to repair my item, I wasn't feeling the game at all, but now I am completely immersed in this world."

I can't fathom how "MUST CLICK BUTTON TO MAGICALLY REPAIR BROKEN ITEM" is the breaking point for immersion, before any of those other things.


Every one agrees on this tacked on button clicking to be bad. The dividing line here is that some would see the entire system removed and others (like myself) would rather see it turned into something worthwhile.

Posted By: SniperHF Re: Let's talk about durability - 22/10/16 04:38 AM
Just get rid of it.

I've been on the get rid of repair train entirely for a long time so no change there :P


However if the concern is mostly surrounding a cost associated with smashing chests/doors, the compromise solution that would make me happy is simply only make those things cause damage to the weapon. I believe Kilroy512512 suggested this back on the first page.

It seems a tad silly to me to have an entire mechanic dedicated to one specific action most players don't even do, but I can't really think of any decent way to impose a "cost" on bashing chests/doors open otherwise.

But I also think the concern is largely silly anyway when you can just save a few random weapons you find and use those to bash things open. Their gold value is so small you don't care that they lose durability. Also generic weapons still have high damage but lack the bonuses which give real value so you don't even care that you can't sell them.
Posted By: chocolate Re: Let's talk about durability - 22/10/16 05:47 AM
Originally Posted by SniperHF
Just get rid of it.

I've been on the get rid of repair train entirely for a long time so no change there :P


However if the concern is mostly surrounding a cost associated with smashing chests/doors, the compromise solution that would make me happy is simply only make those things cause damage to the weapon. I believe Kilroy512512 suggested this back on the first page.

It seems a tad silly to me to have an entire mechanic dedicated to one specific action most players don't even do, but I can't really think of any decent way to impose a "cost" on bashing chests/doors open otherwise.

But I also think the concern is largely silly anyway when you can just save a few random weapons you find and use those to bash things open. Their gold value is so small you don't care that they lose durability. Also generic weapons still have high damage but lack the bonuses which give real value so you don't even care that you can't sell them.


explain why there needs to be a cost for smashing things open beyond it not being stealthy
Posted By: GrumpyMcGrump Re: Let's talk about durability - 22/10/16 09:03 AM
Allow me to ask everybody a quick question: since I constantly see people wanting a repair system to "enhance immersion and roleplay", why do I never see anybody ever asking for a system where your characters have to expel (I'll try to put it in a non-vulgar way) their "biological waste" every X minutes, and if they don't, they end up with dirty laundry with the annexed debuffs?

Why, because that'd be boring, pointless and most importantly completely annoying, of course. As much as having to repair your gear in a game like this where there are alternative, disposable weapons at every corner and spellcasters who can easily troll fighters by breaking chests open with magic spells with no damage whatsoever is, all in the name of "immersion and roleplay" (?).

Yet, you can't deny that, realistically speaking, the characters should go to the john once in a while as we all do IRL. While we're at it, why don't we put a system wherein your characters have to regularly eat and drink? And after that, another system where putting in a full suit of plate armor takes about 15 real life minutes (which it does!), followed by another system where your characters get fatigued after 10 minutes of running around in armor and weapons + something like 200 kgs of gear in their inventories and then get blisters on their feet with an AP point reduction. Does that really sound like "immersive fun" to anybody in here?

The answer is: "What the heck have you been smoking?! And most importantly, where can I find some?! Of course it's not!"

Fun Fact #1: since immersion seems to be such a huge concern, you can carry literally tons of equipment in your magical dimensional bag of an inventory, chests and barrels bigger than your character included

Fun fact #2: having to repair my weapons and armor has never done anything to enhance my immersion in the game, but if I have Lohse speak to a dwarf inside for joy, I'm given a nice lute that, when played, causes Lohse to go kinda bonkers, in an exquisitely In Character way.

THAT is the immersion I find worthwile in a game, and it made me applaud at Larian's creativity for just implementing this small little scene!

I'd rather have the guys at Larian spend their time putting more scenes like that in the game, than having them invest time and energy in more pointless scripts for an equally pointless feature. Just saying.

Posted By: vometia Re: Let's talk about durability - 22/10/16 09:07 AM
I've often complained about the lack of toilets in video games. Indeed, when I did my overly ambitious "Castles of Cyrodiil" mod (I think it's safe to say it'll never get close to being finished) I spent ages trying to find some decent toilets to include.

And then there was the horror of discovering that the toilets in FO3 were actually used as drinking fountains. ew.
Posted By: chocolate Re: Let's talk about durability - 22/10/16 09:50 AM
Originally Posted by GrumpyMcGrump
Allow me to ask everybody a quick question: since I constantly see people wanting a repair system to "enhance immersion and roleplay", why do I never see anybody ever asking for a system where your characters have to expel (I'll try to put it in a non-vulgar way) their "biological waste" every X minutes, and if they don't, they end up with dirty laundry with the annexed debuffs?

Why, because that'd be boring, pointless and most importantly completely annoying, of course. As much as having to repair your gear in a game like this where there are alternative, disposable weapons at every corner and spellcasters who can easily troll fighters by breaking chests open with magic spells with no damage whatsoever is, all in the name of "immersion and roleplay" (?).

Yet, you can't deny that, realistically speaking, the characters should go to the john once in a while as we all do IRL. While we're at it, why don't we put a system wherein your characters have to regularly eat and drink? And after that, another system where putting in a full suit of plate armor takes about 15 real life minutes (which it does!), followed by another system where your characters get fatigued after 10 minutes of running around in armor and weapons + something like 200 kgs of gear in their inventories and then get blisters on their feet with an AP point reduction. Does that really sound like "immersive fun" to anybody in here?

The answer is: "What the heck have you been smoking?! And most importantly, where can I find some?! Of course it's not!"

Fun Fact #1: since immersion seems to be such a huge concern, you can carry literally tons of equipment in your magical dimensional bag of an inventory, chests and barrels bigger than your character included

Fun fact #2: having to repair my weapons and armor has never done anything to enhance my immersion in the game, but if I have Lohse speak to a dwarf inside for joy, I'm given a nice lute that, when played, causes Lohse to go kinda bonkers, in an exquisitely In Character way.

THAT is the immersion I find worthwile in a game, and it made me applaud at Larian's creativity for just implementing this small little scene!

I'd rather have the guys at Larian spend their time putting more scenes like that in the game, than having them invest time and energy in more pointless scripts for an equally pointless feature. Just saying.



i.just. ok. listen. listen listen lseint

you hurt my head, your words.hurt myhead do painfulwordsphurtshurts
ok.ahem.


You are basing things on how they work poorly in Divinity, and not understanding why they exist. A system where objects can break is so that a player can feel immersed in that world where objects can break. If a bathroom system existed in a game, it would be to make a player feel immersed in a world where their character has to go to the bathroom. (The Sims, games that want to establish high levels of realism like Heavy Rain and Indigo Prophecy)

The focus of a role playing game is normally the combat, the characters, and the story. And in this sense Divinity is a normal RPG as those are its focuses. In most cases RPGs don't go too deeply into immersing you into a characters life, stopping at things like daily needs and minor body issues, because the game is focused on combat, story, and its characters in even amounts.

Durability is a mechanic that creates realism in a games combat, and it's purpose is immersive combat and an immersive world.

The need to use the bathroom is a mechanic that creates realism in a games characters, and it's purpose is an immersive world.

Hunger and thirst mechanics are sometimes used for balance of gameplay (such as in survival games, to stop the player from advancing too far without creating some stable form of sustenance first), and used to create realism in a games characters whether it is also being used for balance or not. It's purpose is an immersive world.

Time taken putting on armor and clothing is a mechanic that would create realism, with the purpose of immersing the player in the world. This is a deeper level of immersion, akin to needing the bathroom, and something I doubt you would ever see outside of a game made specifically for people to role play with each other, or possibly something hyper realistic like Mount & Blade. (although you can only change equipment out of combat in that game)

Stamina is a mechanic used in games to immerse the player in the world, and occasionally to balance combat (Dark Souls), though it is not common in turn based rpgs. It's purpose is immersion in both combat and the world.

Weight is a mechanic used to create realism and it's purpose is an immersive world.

I don't think I've ever seen something like blisters used as a mechanic in a game, although it might pop up in story driven Heavy Rain type games.

The thing with Lohse is just good storytelling, and any good storytelling will of course immerse the player in the world. The purpose of immersion mechanics is to back that storytelling up.


Divinity uses a lot of it's immersion mechanics poorly, because the developers also don't understand why they exist. Everyone just needs to understand why durability is ever in any game in the first place and then you can easily see the problems it has in Divinity.
Posted By: GrumpyMcGrump Re: Let's talk about durability - 22/10/16 10:20 AM
Originally Posted by chocolate

Durability is a mechanic that creates realism in a games combat, and it's purpose is immersive combat and an immersive world.


That mechanic is instantly defeated the moment a wizard can bash a chest open by just casting magic at it, or the moment a warrior uses a standard weapon to do the same while then switching to his preferred weapon during combat. How immersive is it to carry 6 weapons in your inventory just to use them to bash things so that your nifty 150-200 damage 2h mace won't degrade as much?

Originally Posted by chocolate

Hunger and thirst mechanics are sometimes used for balance of gameplay (such as in survival games, to stop the player from advancing too far without creating some stable form of sustenance first) and used to create realism in a games characters whether it is also being used for balance or not. It's purpose is an immersive world.


Half wrong. The purpose behind hunger and thirst mechanics is to force you to strategize your trek through dangerous areas by considering matters like weight of the food and water you carry, memorizing food and water sources, and the like. Games like STALKER: SoC and Fallout NV did it surprisingly right, and at least NW is an rpg just like D:OS is.

Originally Posted by chocolate

Time taken putting on armor and clothing is a mechanic that would create realism, with the purpose of immersing the player in the world. This is a deeper level of immersion, akin to needing the bathroom, and something I doubt you would ever see outside of a game made specifically for people to role play with each other, or possibly something hyper realistic like Mount & Blade. (although you can only change equipment out of combat in that game)


You'll never see such a feature in a game, and that's because it would be horrendously boring, yet it's can't be denied that it would still create "immersion". That was my point all along.

Originally Posted by chocolate

Weight is a mechanic used to create realism and it's purpose is an immersive world.


Said immersion instantly turns into a sinking submarine the moment you carry 10 barrels of oil in your inventory because your strength stat allows you to. Yet apparently, equipment degradation supporters seem more concerned with pointing out the absence of realism and immersion in having indestructible equipment rather than the absence of realism in being able to carry 10 oil barrels inside a bag.

Originally Posted by chocolate

I don't think I've ever seen something like blisters used as a mechanic in a game, although it might pop up in story driven Heavy Rain type games.


Yet, if "reality and immersion" are so much of a concern, why is nobody asking for blisters to be implemented?

Originally Posted by chocolate

The thing with Lohse is just good storytelling, and any good storytelling will of course immerse the player in the world. The purpose of immersion mechanics is to back that storytelling up.


That is correct. It is very good storytelling which creates immersion to very deep levels, and without bothering anyone with a tedious micromanagement mechanic.

For that matter, how is seeing a small paperdoll screen with an area of your body painted yellow going to immerse yourself into the game any further? For that matter, how is carrying 10 prongs and pincers going to immerse yourself? And always for that matter, how is a hammer with repair charges going to immerse yourself further into the game? We're talking about a big hunk of iron, are you telling me that in real life it would break after 10 uses? And then what? You stock on other hammers, or maybe implement a feature to repair your own repair hammer?

Regardless, you still haven't answered my question: why do I see equipment degradation supporters campaign so much for maintaining degradation, while not campaigning for other things that, while "enhancing immersion", would also spoil any fun whatsoever or - in the case of all the barrels you can seemingly carry in your inventory despite it violating the laws of physics - completely break immersion? Double standards, maybe?

There is the good kind of immersion and the bad kind of immersion. Is degradation the former and not the latter? Just by looking at all the people currently complaining, I would say "no".
Posted By: chocolate Re: Let's talk about durability - 22/10/16 10:24 AM
stop using examples from games. we are talking about why these things exist not how they manifest in divinity.

you arent thinking, you arent trying to understand, you arent asking yourself why, please,stopwakeupjohnyoureworryingyourfamily

doctor hes inatrance he wontwake up whats wrong with himdoctor

shh quiet now itsok hes happier thisway
Posted By: GrumpyMcGrump Re: Let's talk about durability - 22/10/16 10:28 AM
Originally Posted by chocolate

you arent thinking, you arent trying to understand, you arent asking yourself why, please,stopwakeupjohnyoureworryingyourfamily


By the looks of it, it is you who isn't trying to understand my point or asking yourself why. Bashing at a keyboard is not going to change my original question: how is equipment degradation going to enhance the fun of playing a video game in any way? And is "immersion" really a good thing for said fun? And please don't answer by telling me that video games aren't supposed to be fun.
Posted By: chocolate Re: Let's talk about durability - 22/10/16 10:31 AM
Originally Posted by GrumpyMcGrump
Originally Posted by chocolate

you arent thinking, you arent trying to understand, you arent asking yourself why, please,stopwakeupjohnyoureworryingyourfamily


By the looks of it, it is you who isn't trying to understand my point or asking yourself why. Bashing at a keyboard is not going to change my original question: how is equipment degradation going to enhance the fun of playing a video game in any way? And is "immersion" really a good thing for said fun? And please don't answer by telling me that video games aren't supposed to be fun.


videogames are a medium, a medium is supposed to deliver something, not specifically fun.

srry 2 rain on ur sleepy hed but video gams dnt haf 2 b fun
Posted By: GrumpyMcGrump Re: Let's talk about durability - 22/10/16 10:37 AM
Originally Posted by chocolate

videogames are a medium, a medium is supposed to deliver something, not specifically fun.


Videogames are indeed a medium. One whose main purpose is having its user have fun. That's why a video game that isn't fun simply bombs. I don't play D:OS because I want to reflect on the philosophy of my existance, because for that there are the books of writers like Kant, Mann or Kafka.

Originally Posted by chocolate

srry 2 rain on ur sleepy hed but video gams dnt haf 2 b fun


Protip: you should argument your replies with reasoning and logic, not with personal attacks written with the grammar of a third grader. It usually doesn't do much to add weight to your argumentations.
Posted By: chocolate Re: Let's talk about durability - 22/10/16 10:45 AM
http://store.steampowered.com/app/239030/

and we arent arguing. you said something, i talked to you, you argued with me, then i gave up. theres no point in arguing over this stuff, it doesnt lead to results. talk. be a person. think. isntsentiencenice
Posted By: GrumpyMcGrump Re: Let's talk about durability - 22/10/16 10:52 AM
Originally Posted by chocolate


Oh right, Papers Please. That's an unfunny, tedious and boring game indeed.

No wait, what, it isn't. PP is quite fun and creative. A funny game that also happens to be packed with drama and difficult choices. A game that presents you said drama and difficult choices in an engaging, fun format.

However, lad, I'm still waiting for an answer to my original question:

Are "realism" and "immersion" really so important that they should be represented with a boring and tedious mechanic?

That was my point behind all that talk of bathroom needs, hunger, thirst, fatigue and blisters.
Posted By: chocolate Re: Let's talk about durability - 22/10/16 10:56 AM
Originally Posted by GrumpyMcGrump

Are "realism" and "immersion" really so important that they should be represented with a boring and tedious mechanic?


this is good. this is talking, not arguing. and no, they aren't that important, they shouldn't be boring and tedious. the one in divinity is done poorly and it comes off as boring and tedious where it should come off as fair.
Posted By: GrumpyMcGrump Re: Let's talk about durability - 22/10/16 11:02 AM
Originally Posted by chocolate

this is good. this is talking, not arguing. and no, they aren't, they shouldn't be boring and tedious. the one in divinity is done poorly and it comes off as boring and tedious where it should come off as fair.


I've been talking the whole time, lad. Had I been arguing, the moderators would have had to lock the thread in its entirety.

Now, second question:

what would the game be missing without the degrading equipment feature? Would the lack of said feature debase the game in any way?
Posted By: vometia Re: Let's talk about durability - 22/10/16 11:08 AM
Originally Posted by GrumpyMcGrump
I've been talking the whole time, lad. Had I been arguing, the moderators would have had to lock the thread in its entirety.

We only really do that if the personal attacks are getting out of hand. But y'know.

Personally I would like to ban anyone who argues with me or looks at me funny but I'm not allowed. D:
Posted By: chocolate Re: Let's talk about durability - 22/10/16 11:09 AM
Originally Posted by GrumpyMcGrump

I've been talking the whole time, lad. Had I been arguing, the moderators would have had to lock the thread in its entirety.

Now, second question:

what would the game be missing without the degrading equipment feature? Would the lack of said feature debase the game in any way?


pls stop lol youre so disturbing

the game would be missing an immersion mechanic, it being gone wouldnt really be a huge deal but it would have some effect, its part of a web of immersion mechanics that create the games experience and any one part could be removed without any really noticeable effect. it should be removed or fixed but removed is just a lazy option for sleepy people
Posted By: GrumpyMcGrump Re: Let's talk about durability - 22/10/16 11:26 AM
Originally Posted by chocolate

the game would be missing an immersion mechanic, it being gone wouldnt really be a huge deal but it would have some effect, its part of a web of immersion mechanics that create the games experience and any one part could be removed without any really noticeable effect. it should be removed or fixed but removed is just a lazy option for sleepy people


Good, since we do agree on something, specifically that it should either be fixed or removed, there is another wee bit to consider:

About 1/3rd of the people on this forum resent the equipment degradation feature in its entirety, especially the way it is currently implemented.
Aboud 1/3rd of the people here resent the degradation feature but would be ok with a better improved version.
And lastly, the final third of the people here like the idea of degrading equipment, but they think that it is poorly implemented, clunky and weird.

Now, how to better implement equipment degradation in a way that pleases most people while not making it spoil the fun? I've read a lot of possible solutions, but each and everyone either has its faults (no offense to those who forwarded them, on the contrary, kudos to them for the attempt), isn't liked by enough people, or both of them.
Regardless of the angle at which we look at the picture, it looks to me that the equipment degradation feature is already causing more troubles than its effective worth.

Quote
pls stop lol youre so disturbing

Uhm...thanks, I guess? wink
Posted By: smokey Re: Let's talk about durability - 22/10/16 12:09 PM
Glad to hear Larian are considering removing it altogether.

If it's to stay, I agree with the suggestion (also seemingly endorsed by several others) that only weapons should have durability, and that it should only deplete if someone is trying to bash open treasure and the like. This way, it's basically a gold cost for forcing your way through - which seems a fair penalty.

I definitely don't like the battle-related 'wear and tear' tedium, and it seems everyone else agrees.


Posted By: Hot Stuff Re: Let's talk about durability - 22/10/16 03:25 PM
I've never been a fan of durability/repair mechanics, and would not be sad to see them go.

I agree that there should be the ability to bash open chests or break down doors.

I also agree that doing either of those two should come at some cost, since it is not the normal way of opening them.

If the cost of burning down a door is essentially "time and you may be noticed" then surely the same cost could apply to smashing down the door as well. It takes multiple hits (equivalent to the time it takes to burn it down) and makes a lot of noise (equivalent to people noticing the door on fire).

Likewise, the cost of bashing open a chest could be the same as the cost of burning the chest.

If durability/repair needs to stay in the game, then perhaps make it only possible at a stationary facility (a town's blacksmith shop, or at your eventual "home base"). So if something breaks while you are out adventuring, the "cost" is that you have to use something else until you get back to town/base, at which point everything can be repaired with a single click of the anvil, or whatever.

Even then, I'd still rather it be a very rare occurrence, as again, I find durability/repair to be an annoyance more than a value added.

Just my two cents. hehe

Posted By: qwerty3w Re: Let's talk about durability - 22/10/16 07:42 PM
Two suggestions:

1.Give lock picking some reward, like a small amount of experience.

2.Repairing a item could change the item's stats randomly. This mechanic should come with some savescum prevention.

Posted By: Stabbey Re: Let's talk about durability - 22/10/16 09:19 PM
Originally Posted by qwerty3w
Two suggestions:
2.Repairing a item could change the item's stats randomly. This mechanic should come with some savescum prevention.


It's called "repairing", not "randomly changing stats". This is just another idea which will effectively punish players for not having good luck.
Posted By: sehnsucht Re: Let's talk about durability - 23/10/16 11:41 AM
If preventing people from bashing open wooden doors & chests too often is the only reason you keep durability in the game then you can remove it. I always bash with spells to prevent durability loss.

IMO if you don't want certain chests, doors, etc to be bashed open, simply make them immune to all damage or give them a very high life (like 1 million) and it should work
Posted By: Skallewag Re: Let's talk about durability - 23/10/16 01:32 PM
Originally Posted by sehnsucht
If preventing people from bashing open wooden doors & chests too often is the only reason you keep durability in the game then you can remove it. I always bash with spells to prevent durability loss.

IMO if you don't want certain chests, doors, etc to be bashed open, simply make them immune to all damage or give them a very high life (like 1 million) and it should work


+1
Posted By: Mikus Re: Let's talk about durability - 23/10/16 02:12 PM
Originally Posted by Skallewag
Originally Posted by sehnsucht
If preventing people from bashing open wooden doors & chests too often is the only reason you keep durability in the game then you can remove it. I always bash with spells to prevent durability loss.

IMO if you don't want certain chests, doors, etc to be bashed open, simply make them immune to all damage or give them a very high life (like 1 million) and it should work


+1


+2
Posted By: GrumpyMcGrump Re: Let's talk about durability - 23/10/16 04:03 PM
Originally Posted by Mikus
Originally Posted by Skallewag
Originally Posted by sehnsucht
If preventing people from bashing open wooden doors & chests too often is the only reason you keep durability in the game then you can remove it. I always bash with spells to prevent durability loss.

IMO if you don't want certain chests, doors, etc to be bashed open, simply make them immune to all damage or give them a very high life (like 1 million) and it should work


+1


+2


+3
Posted By: Baardvark Re: Let's talk about durability - 23/10/16 06:11 PM
Originally Posted by sehnsucht
If preventing people from bashing open wooden doors & chests too often is the only reason you keep durability in the game then you can remove it. I always bash with spells to prevent durability loss.

IMO if you don't want certain chests, doors, etc to be bashed open, simply make them immune to all damage or give them a very high life (like 1 million) and it should work


Probably just the best way to go about it is to have enough situations where lockpicking is mandatory (for sound or destructibility reasons, like a stone or magically resistant chest), but still have a decent number of chests that can be bashed. Another big thing to consider is I remember that Thievery now encompasses Pickpocketing and Lockpicking, so as long as there's also plenty of situations to pickpocket valuable things (something I forgot to do), and lockpick some chests or doors, than I think people will see Thievery as a good investment even if some chests or doors can be bashed open with no cost.
Posted By: aj0413 Re: Let's talk about durability - 24/10/16 12:57 AM
Originally Posted by GrumpyMcGrump
Originally Posted by Mikus
Originally Posted by Skallewag
Originally Posted by sehnsucht
If preventing people from bashing open wooden doors & chests too often is the only reason you keep durability in the game then you can remove it. I always bash with spells to prevent durability loss.

IMO if you don't want certain chests, doors, etc to be bashed open, simply make them immune to all damage or give them a very high life (like 1 million) and it should work


+1


+2


+3


-1

-_- We can clearly see two camps here:
- Those who feel durability isn't that important (for various reasons)
- Those who like the idea of durability; generally, thanks to RP immersion qualities and the ideas it can branch into

**Also, I'd gladly add bathroom mechanics to an RPG :P Would give my character a reason to piss on his enemies.

I'm not about to argue the idea of immersive mechanics, what counts as too far given a game type, and all that other jazz.

Point is:
Some of us are attached to the idea of durability because of RP factors and cause we think it could be made interesting and fun

I did a a long wall of text consolidating ideas behind that and it can be found here:

Forum Thread: Let's talk about durability, page 4

Secondly:
As far as I can tell, while most people fall in one of the two camps, there's a spectrum of 'hate' for durability in the 'make it go away' side.

* Some find it annoying but think it could maybe be made better
* Some think it adds nothing and thus don't care for it
* Some dislike it, but could swallow their distaste if it was improved
* Some actively hate the idea of it

Thus:
Seems to me that if any of the suggestions or work into actually improving the system and making it more involved, interesting, and adding to the combat aspects, strategic choice making, and, generally, less tedious were done, most one side would be completely happy and, at minimum, half the other would be 'okay.'

You can't satisfy everyone, but the majority of people would be better off improving and evolving the system to satisfy/please three fourths of the player base than to alienate half.

My thoughts/feelings on immersion:

There's also the fact that the fact it's in the game at all meams the devs also seam attached to RP immersive factors. Other wise: why durability? why the ability to 'sleep'? why the ability to eat? why the ability to drink?

Truly, I wouldn't want to add survival elements to eating and sleeping, but I'd love for them to be made into something much more substantial.

Eating and drinking don't have to be punishing for them to be interesting and relevant in a RP perspective from mechanical aspect.

Just as someone mentioned rewarding players for gear upkeep, you can reward players for taking care of their characters quality of life. You could even add small bonuses based off how they live.

Too many sweets and pies -> Something interesting happens with merits and demerits
Eat healthy alot -> rewarded small bonus

Well hydrated -> small reward

*rolling eyes* of course I suspect some here would shoot me in the head for suggesting such a thing, but it is what it is and that's my feelings on the matter

I actually really like it when I'm playing D&D or Skyrim or Fallout and some realsitic mechanics concerning weight, eating, sleeping, going to the bathroom are included. I even have used mods to simulate health and disease and stuff.

I enjoy total immersion. The idea that the character is actually alive and living so I can connect with them better.

Sure, it would be just as immersive to have a realistic life of a office worker, but the important aspect missing in that counter example is the setting. Would that same example be ridiculously fun if everything was totally immersive but then aliens invaded randomly? Or if you could go around and choose to cause chaos? Hell, yeah.

Having my character go to the bathroom only to have aliens kick down the door to kill me with my pants down? Sounds awesome to me.

This debate is getting a bit too heated for some.

Lets refocus on two conclusive things:
> There are two groups here around a dividing line
> Is there a way to please the majority of people from both?
Posted By: chocolate Re: Let's talk about durability - 24/10/16 02:39 AM
Quote
**Also, I'd gladly add bathroom mechanics to an RPG :P Would give my character a reason to piss on his enemies.


SAVAGE LOL
Posted By: Alanta Re: Let's talk about durability - 24/10/16 07:06 AM
I do feel that immersion is very important. I however do not feel that durability adds any immersion. Some other people in this thread said similar things. The dividing line here is not the importance of immersion.

Also I do believe there's no way to improve durability enough to make it interesting for me. It'll either be not meaningful or meaningful and extremely annoying.
Posted By: aj0413 Re: Let's talk about durability - 24/10/16 07:52 AM
Originally Posted by Alanta
I do feel that immersion is very important. I however do not feel that durability adds any immersion. Some other people in this thread said similar things. The dividing line here is not the importance of immersion.

Also I do believe there's no way to improve durability enough to make it interesting for me. It'll either be not meaningful or meaningful and extremely annoying.


Wasn't immersion as the dividing line: It's durability satying or going. Whether you see it as immersive or not means very little in that sense. You've clearly chosen a side.

Secondly, what counts as immersive and to what degree is relative. So that hardly matters as well. Me pointing out that durability staying and RP immersion being important is just a trend I've noticed on those who want it to stay.

Thirdly, so what your saying is: depending on what happens, I'll either hate it or ignore it depending on how it impacts gameplay. Either that, or that you don't want it at all, ever.

Which goes back to my previous statement:
> If you're statement is more of the former interpretation: Then there's a method to get durability out of your face and make it something you don't need to worry about too much and can be made quick and relatively painless in the suggestions.

> If anything at all with durability bothers you, you're in the sub-sub group of just hating it and that pretty much means that you can't really be expected to work towards a middle ground for the majority cause you cant be budged.

> And if the idea that a player doesn't need to worry about durability really but if he keeps it high he gets a small bonus bothers you: Now you're just nitpicking and being kind of selfish
Posted By: Naqel Re: Let's talk about durability - 24/10/16 08:03 AM
Originally Posted by aj0413

-_- We can clearly see two camps here:
- Those who feel durability and RP immersion isn't that important
- Those who like the idea of durability and RP immersion


That's false.

There's nothing stopping a person from enjoying immersive role-playing while being opposed to the idea of equipment durability, and vice-versa.

The line of division here isn't "RP master race and the rest of the plebs", it's "maintenance saps the fun out of games" versus "durability enhances realism".

These are not irreconcilable differences(as you yourself observe: if maintenance stops being a pain, the system can stay), so let's not present them as such.
Posted By: aj0413 Re: Let's talk about durability - 24/10/16 08:14 AM
You said this:

Originally Posted by Naqel
Originally Posted by aj0413

-_- We can clearly see two camps here:
- Those who feel durability and RP immersion isn't that important
- Those who like the idea of durability and RP immersion


That's false.

There's nothing stopping a person from enjoying immersive role-playing while being opposed to the idea of equipment durability, and vice-versa.

The line of division here isn't "RP master race and the rest of the plebs", it's "maintenance saps the fun out of games" versus "durability enhances realism".

These are not irreconcilable differences(as you yourself observe: if maintenance stops being a pain, the system can stay), so let's not present them as such.


I said this just previously:

Originally Posted by aj0413

Wasn't immersion as the dividing line: It's durability satying or going. Whether you see it as immersive or not means very little in that sense. You've clearly chosen a side.

Secondly, what counts as immersive and to what degree is relative. So that hardly matters as well. Me pointing out that durability staying and RP immersion being important is just a trend I've noticed on those who want it to stay.


When I put the two concepts in a sentence I wasn't irrevocably chaining them together.

I was implying that there are people here who don't see either 'durability' nor 'immersion' as important; two separate, though normally related, concepts. Not if you don't agree with immersion, then you don't agree with durability and vice versa.

But I guess I could've worded that better, yes; so, my bad :P
Posted By: Madscientist Re: Let's talk about durability - 24/10/16 08:18 AM
Originally Posted by GrumpyMcGrump
Originally Posted by Mikus
Originally Posted by Skallewag
Originally Posted by sehnsucht
If preventing people from bashing open wooden doors & chests too often is the only reason you keep durability in the game then you can remove it. I always bash with spells to prevent durability loss.

IMO if you don't want certain chests, doors, etc to be bashed open, simply make them immune to all damage or give them a very high life (like 1 million) and it should work


+1


+2


+3

+4
Posted By: Kilroy512512 Re: Let's talk about durability - 24/10/16 08:24 AM
I think that we are confusing realism with immersion. You can't tell me you feel immersed when you open up your inventory panel to tediously click a few objects, if that's your argument then it's literally a lie. It's debatably more realistic and that's the only claim to be made.

Repairs in their current form=/=immersion

If you have ever played with a good group in DnD you know that it is one of the most immersive forms of entertainment available and yet gear maintenance is extremely rare outside of stocking up on supplies. The primary exception to that is when something off the wall happens that specifically targets gear like rust monsters, potent acid, or a particularly nasty monster peeling open your plate wearers armor like a tin can. In most cases these repairs require specific attention to replace or repair, and even then it comes at a high cost. (particularly if a rust monster just ate up a suit of full plate) Powerful moments of significant loss is how you make repairs seem more interesting/appealing, not tedious menus.
Posted By: BlueGuy Re: Let's talk about durability - 24/10/16 08:27 AM
My idea is that durability will still occur but is a battle concern that you can use strategy around to avoid or minimize. That way you can retain role-playing immersion and minimize having to repair equipment all the time.


Instead of having equipment deteriorating from usage you could have equipment in three states and remove usage from the equation.

Enhanced - Equipment/weapons gain bonus effects
Normal - Equipment/weapon is as advertised
Broken - Equipment/weapon can no longer be used until repaired

What determines if equipment is in these three states?

Broken
- Battle ~ aka a rust monster/spell etc
- Sabotage ~ a vial of corrosive acid makes your equipment brittle
- Use whet stones/armorer hammers to repair 'broken' state equipment/weapons

Normal
- All equipment/weapons start like this usually

Enhanced
- Use things like whet stones or armorer hammers to enhance armour/weapons and add effects with spells etc

*Chests and doors will not break weapons and neither will attacks with your weapon cause durability to reduce. Noise made should be enough of a check and balance for breaking chests and doors.
*Armour/weapons will not suffer durability loss from use. Going from 'normal' to 'broken' is caused by special attacks from some enemies like rust monsters and will not occur straight away but after a couple of turns will be unusable unless treated or repaired by a spell or tool etc
Posted By: Madscientist Re: Let's talk about durability - 24/10/16 08:32 AM
Originally Posted by Naqel
Originally Posted by aj0413

-_- We can clearly see two camps here:
- Those who feel durability and RP immersion isn't that important
- Those who like the idea of durability and RP immersion


That's false.

There's nothing stopping a person from enjoying immersive role-playing while being opposed to the idea of equipment durability, and vice-versa.

The line of division here isn't "RP master race and the rest of the plebs", it's "maintenance saps the fun out of games" versus "durability enhances realism".

These are not irreconcilable differences(as you yourself observe: if maintenance stops being a pain, the system can stay), so let's not present them as such.


+1

I think that immersion is importent but I do not think that durability adds lots of immersion to D:OS2.

At the moment I play Planescape Torment again. It is one of the most immersive games I know. There is tons of text and I read it and I enjoy doing so.
PST is immersive because of its setting, story, characters and how all these things fit together.
PST is not realistic in any way: no durability and repair, no need to eat, drink, sleep (except spell recovery) or going to the toilett. They can carry tons of items, there are some strange restrictions who can use what items or skills and there are tons of other unrealistic things.

summary:
- immersion is importent
- immersion is not the same as realism or simulation
- realism can add to immersion, but it does not do it in every case. Sometimes realism can make things boring or annoying. So it is possible that realism can reduce immersion.
Posted By: GrumpyMcGrump Re: Let's talk about durability - 24/10/16 08:46 AM
Originally Posted by Madscientist

summary:
- immersion is importent
- immersion is not the same as realism or simulation
- realism can add to immersion, but it does not do it in every case. Sometimes realism can make things boring or annoying. So it is possible that realism can reduce immersion.


Yes! Spread the gospel! Chant it to the top of the skies! Henceforth you shall be named as "Madscientist, the Keeper of Truth!" laugh

...Seriously, every point against weapon durability condensed into a brief, concise summary.

Originally Posted by Naqel
Originally Posted by aj0413

-_- We can clearly see two camps here:
- Those who feel durability and RP immersion isn't that important
- Those who like the idea of durability and RP immersion


That's false.

There's nothing stopping a person from enjoying immersive role-playing while being opposed to the idea of equipment durability, and vice-versa.

The line of division here isn't "RP master race and the rest of the plebs", it's "maintenance saps the fun out of games" versus "durability enhances realism".

These are not irreconcilable differences(as you yourself observe: if maintenance stops being a pain, the system can stay), so let's not present them as such.


Nailed it. DM mode isn't out yet, we don't even know how will it be implemented, but I'm already getting the vibe I used to get on Ultima Online/NWN1 and 2 whenever anyone wanted "better immersion" at the expense of the fun factor and used the "rp untermenschen" line whenever someone else didn't agree to their ideas.

Not going to joke, I'm loving this community! It's again like in the glorious, good old days! hahaha
Posted By: aj0413 Re: Let's talk about durability - 24/10/16 08:55 AM
Originally Posted by GrumpyMcGrump
Originally Posted by Madscientist

summary:
- immersion is importent
- immersion is not the same as realism or simulation
- realism can add to immersion, but it does not do it in every case. Sometimes realism can make things boring or annoying. So it is possible that realism can reduce immersion.


Yes! Spread the gospel! Chant it to the top of the skies! Henceforth you shall be named as "Madscientist, the Keeper of Truth!" laugh

...Seriously, every point against weapon durability condensed into a brief, concise summary,


Ya know, people get this?

The idea behind durability being immersive is pretty simple. Items aren't indestructible. I can bash open a door, I can break a stick I use as a weapon, so on and so forth.

It's intuitive to ones understanding of the world and how things work.

It's immersive that such intuitive thoughts hold true. Going counter to them is being the opposite of immersive.

There's a degree of suspension of disbelief for immersive games cause they aren't beholden to realism (ie magic), but accepting indestructible weapons is more further than I'm willing to go.

The fact that you don't have to hunt down components to fix things and can just use a hammer for everything seems like enough of a reduction of realism to me to reduce the 'boring' or 'annoyance' factor

Hell, the fact that you durability doesn't seem to degrade value or damage or anything is there to reduce realism

Just cause people argue for keeping durability does not mean we don't get what your conveying

Nor is there a right or wrong answer in immersive qualities, per se.

But this is a side debate more than anything: Ignore whether or not, I want durabilty for immersion. Ignore whether or not, you disagree with me.

Fact is: You can't argue an opinion. And trying to undermind one groups opinion on the immersive qualities of durability gets us nowhere.

My point remains:
> The issue on durability is divided
> The group who wants it gone at least has sub groups willing to discuss changing it so it doesn't bother them
> Therefore, more people would be better off with an evolution of the system rather than just half
Posted By: GrumpyMcGrump Re: Let's talk about durability - 24/10/16 09:15 AM
Originally Posted by aj0413
Originally Posted by GrumpyMcGrump
Originally Posted by Madscientist

summary:
- immersion is importent
- immersion is not the same as realism or simulation
- realism can add to immersion, but it does not do it in every case. Sometimes realism can make things boring or annoying. So it is possible that realism can reduce immersion.


Yes! Spread the gospel! Chant it to the top of the skies! Henceforth you shall be named as "Madscientist, the Keeper of Truth!" laugh

...Seriously, every point against weapon durability condensed into a brief, concise summary,


Ya know, people get this?

The idea behind durability being immersive is pretty simple. Items aren't indestructible. I can bash open a door, I can break a stick I use as a weapon, so on and so forth.

It's intuitive to ones understanding of the world and how things work.

It's immersive that such intuitive thoughts hold true. Going counter to them is being the opposite of immersive.

There's a degree of suspension of disbelief for immersive games cause they aren't beholden to realism (ie magic), but accepting indestructible weapons is more further than I'm willing to go.

The fact that you don't have to hunt down components to fix things and can just use a hammer for everything seems like enough of a reduction of realism to me to reduce the 'boring' or 'annoyance' factor

Hell, the fact that you durability doesn't seem to degrade value or damage or anything is there to reduce realism

Just cause people argue for keeping durability does not mean we don't get what your conveying

Nor is there a right or wrong answer in immersive qualities, per se.

But this is a side debate more than anything: Ignore whether or not, I want durabilty for immersion. Ignore whether or not, you disagree with me.

Fact is: You can't argue an opinion. And trying to undermind one groups opinion on the immersive qualities of durability gets us nowhere.

My point remains:
> The issue on durability is divided
> The group who wants it gone at least has sub groups willing to discuss changing it so it doesn't bother them
> Therefore, more people would be better off with an evolution of the system rather than just half


Yes, people have been through this back-and-forth before. A dozen times, to be accurate. So far I've yet to see a single alternative that pleases the majority of people without making degradable equipment a pain in the backside, and there's a good chance that said valid alternative won't pop up at all. Just cut the knot (i.e. remove the feature) and be done with it. It's not that the game or the roleplay factor will be diminished in any way whatsoever without it.
Posted By: Kilroy512512 Re: Let's talk about durability - 24/10/16 09:22 AM
Originally Posted by aj0413

Ya know, people get this?

The idea behind durability being immersive is pretty simple. Items aren't indestructible. I can bash open a door, I can break a stick I use as a weapon, so on and so forth.

It's intuitive to ones understanding of the world and how things work.

It's immersive that such intuitive thoughts hold true. Going counter to them is being the opposite of immersive.

There's a degree of suspension of disbelief for immersive games cause they aren't beholden to realism (ie magic), but accepting indestructible weapons is more further than I'm willing to go.

The fact that you don't have to hunt down components to fix things and can just use a hammer for everything seems like enough of a reduction of realism to me to reduce the 'boring' or 'annoyance' factor


You basically just gave the definition of realism and then called it immersion.

Quote

noun: immersion

-the action of immersing someone or something in a liquid.
"his back was still raw from immersion in the icy Atlantic Ocean"
-deep mental involvement.
"his immersion in Jewish culture"
a method of teaching a foreign language by the exclusive use of that language, usually at a special school.


In the context of games I would say that it more specifically refers to a games ability to make you either forget you are playing a game (the pipe dream of game devs the world over) or allow you to feel personally connected to the consequences of actions or events taking place in the game.

If the goal of the game is to make you feel more connected to it, the last thing you want to do is drag them into menus unnecessarily. This rips away immersion by reminding the player/players very clearly that they are in a simulation. That is the only net effect of durability that relates to immersion and it is directly counter to the concept of immersion.

You can argue that it is realistic all day, that's fine, but immersive it is not and tedious it is.
Posted By: aj0413 Re: Let's talk about durability - 24/10/16 09:31 AM
Originally Posted by Kilroy512512
Originally Posted by aj0413

Ya know, people get this?

The idea behind durability being immersive is pretty simple. Items aren't indestructible. I can bash open a door, I can break a stick I use as a weapon, so on and so forth.

It's intuitive to ones understanding of the world and how things work.

It's immersive that such intuitive thoughts hold true. Going counter to them is being the opposite of immersive.

There's a degree of suspension of disbelief for immersive games cause they aren't beholden to realism (ie magic), but accepting indestructible weapons is more further than I'm willing to go.

The fact that you don't have to hunt down components to fix things and can just use a hammer for everything seems like enough of a reduction of realism to me to reduce the 'boring' or 'annoyance' factor


You basically just gave the definition of realism and then called it immersion.

Quote

noun: immersion

-the action of immersing someone or something in a liquid.
"his back was still raw from immersion in the icy Atlantic Ocean"
-deep mental involvement.
"his immersion in Jewish culture"
a method of teaching a foreign language by the exclusive use of that language, usually at a special school.


In the context of games I would say that it more specifically refers to a games ability to make you either forget you are playing a game (the pipe dream of game devs the world over) or allow you to feel personally connected to the consequences of actions or events taking place in the game.

If the goal of the game is to make you feel more connected to it, the last thing you want to do is drag them into menus unnecessarily. This rips away immersion by reminding the player/players very clearly that they are in a simulation. That is the only net effect of durability that relates to immersion and it is directly counter to the concept of immersion.

You can argue that it is realistic all day, that's fine, but immersive it is not and tedious it is.


What? I clearly follow the definition: removing durability from an item detaches mental involvement cause it's counter intuitive and removes the connection to consequences of doing the simple action of bashing on things; and I mean bashing, not trying to break open a door with a guard nearby or anything, but hitting a wall or a rock or the ground.

Immersion = mental connection = I feel connected when my intuition on a basic axiom I work with all the time is followed.

Trying to argue what a given person finds mentally connecting is an argument in the relative


Hell, by trying to counter man me and say that only things that provide connections through consequences, I can argue any mechanic as immersive. Clearly, this is not the case.

And why does any of this matter anyways? Arguing about immersion, it's definition, how it's interpreted, or anything at all about it at this point is getting no one no where.

As I said:
We have two clear groups with an opinion
One at least has parts willing to drop the issue
How do we please the majority?

I find my logic pretty simple, yet it's routinely ignored for debating something relatively pointless
Posted By: GrumpyMcGrump Re: Let's talk about durability - 24/10/16 09:42 AM
Originally Posted by aj0413

As I said:
We have two clear groups with an opinion
One at least has parts willing to drop the issue
How do we please the majority?

I find my logic pretty simple, yet it's routinely ignored for debating something relatively pointless


I've already said it before: that repairing your gear in its current form is annoying and pointless is something that everybody agrees upon. As for pleasing the majority of people: you can either do so by removing the feature in its entirety (and it seems to me that the number of people who wouldn't miss it is more or less equal in numbers to the group of people who wouldn't mind a better, revamped system), or you put a better, revamped system in place.

The problem is that for now I've only read things like making repair a secondary skill to invest points in (nvm that we're already skillpoints-starved as it is), equipment that once broken is lost for good, or even talks of an RNG (this again? What's stopping me from quicksaving and quickloading to avoid it? And then what are we gonna do? Restrict save game and loading? For something as measly as an item repair?).

As bad as the current system it, I (and I'm sure, many other players) certainly don't want it to be replaced with something even worse.
Posted By: aj0413 Re: Let's talk about durability - 24/10/16 09:43 AM
Originally Posted by GrumpyMcGrump


Yes, people have been through this back-and-forth before. A dozen times, to be accurate. So far I've yet to see a single alternative that pleases the majority of people without making degradable equipment a pain in the backside, and there's a good chance that said valid alternative won't pop up at all. Just cut the knot (i.e. remove the feature) and be done with it. It's not that the game or the roleplay factor will be diminished in any way whatsoever without it.


A simple Repair All and some interesting side function like rewarding durability upkeep seemed good enough for most

Durability related skills also popped up

The idea of making repair hammers consumables also came up numerous times along side the repair all

Four ideas that make it a non-pain in the back side by letting you just hit a button every once in a while and brought in some actual thinking to make durability not feel tacked on and allow for interesting mechanics

Originally Posted by GrumpyMcGrump


I've already said it before: that repairing your gear in its current form is annoying and pointless is something that everybody agrees upon. As for pleasing the majority of people: you can either do so by removing the feature in its entirety (and it seems to me that the number of people who wouldn't miss it is more or less equal in numbers to the group of people who wouldn't mind a better, revamped system), or you put a better, revamped system in place.

The problem is that for now I've only read things like making repair a secondary skill to invest points in (nvm that we're already skillpoints-starved as it is), equipment that once broken is lost for good, or even talks of an RNG (this again? What's stopping me from quicksaving and quickloading to avoid it? And then what are we gonna do? Restrict save game and loading? For something as measly as an item repair?). In short, all of these ideas have their fair share of flaws which, if implemented, would render them just as annoying as the current iteration, only in a different way.


Just saw this:

- The RNG idea was quickly shot down
- I only saw people thinking of adding some repair related stuff to existing crafting skills, so no new tree and there are merchants for those who don't want to waste points
- I havent seen any suggestion for complete destruction; only that some people would like the idea of being able o breakdown items into components for crafting

A clear evolution of the system seems more than doable to please everyone to a degree
Posted By: GrumpyMcGrump Re: Let's talk about durability - 24/10/16 09:48 AM
Originally Posted by aj0413

Durability related skills also popped up

The idea of making repair hammers consumables also came up numerous times along side the repair all


My main issue with durability related skills is what I've already said, namely that we're already starved of skillpoints as it is and investing more points in a tertiary skills is a forced waste. Now, if instead of a wholly new skill, blacksmithing could be expanded to also cover repairs (which would also make complete sense since a blacksmith's work is 50% spent on crafting new armors and weapons and the other 50% is spent on repairing them), I'd already be more okay with it.
Posted By: Kalrakh Re: Let's talk about durability - 24/10/16 09:51 AM
Two make both sides happy, we need a way to easy it for one side and to keep it for the other side.

For this case I think, we need more realism:

1a) A tool doesn't break, just because you repaired one single item. A tool will brake, if you use it again and again to repair. -> Give Repair hammer charges that get consumed for every point of durability they are repairing.

1b) Having to repair every single part of equipment is totally annoying. Implement a button, that repairs all equipped items at once, consuming the specific number of charges. But it shouldn't repair items in your inventory automatically.

2a) It is ridiculous, that identifying an item destroys a identifying glass. What the hell are you doing for identifying? Smashing it on the item while saying a magic word? Replace the glass by either scrolls, to make it a logical consumable or replace it with some kind of magical item/orb, that comes with charges. Charges will be consumed depending on the rarity of the item. More rare items need more charges of course.

2b) Add an option to activate 'automatic identification' of items and if you make scrolls for heavens sake don't make scrolls of different rarity of identification, you already have to skill Loremaster and invest social points for this.
Posted By: aj0413 Re: Let's talk about durability - 24/10/16 09:52 AM
Originally Posted by GrumpyMcGrump
Originally Posted by aj0413

Durability related skills also popped up

The idea of making repair hammers consumables also came up numerous times along side the repair all


My main issue with durability related skills is what I've already said, namely that we're already starved of skillpoints as it is and investing more points in a tertiary skills is a forced waste. Now, if instead of a wholly new skill, blacksmithing could be expanded to also cover repairs (which would also make complete sense since a blacksmith's work is 50% spent on crafting new armors and weapons and the other 50% is spent on repairing them), I'd already be more okay with it.


I think your interpreting me wrong:
Crafting&Blacksmithing = repair skill, no new tree

Durability related skills:
Skills in Warfare for targeting enemy weapons or armor

Skills in Air magic for boosting armor in exchange for breaking your armor next turn or for doing the same with a weapon

Skills in earth for adding acid damage to a weapon but causing it to lose durability quickly over time

no new skill trees, just adding unique skills to existing ones that interact with the durability value on weapons an darmor

Now do you see an issue with those suggestions? I think they sound more than reasonable and fairly interesting to boot
Posted By: GrumpyMcGrump Re: Let's talk about durability - 24/10/16 09:56 AM
Originally Posted by aj0413

I think your interpreting me wrong:
Crafting&Blacksmithing = repair skill, no new tree

Durability related skills:
Skills in Warfare for targeting enemy weapons or armor

Skills in Air magic for boosting armor in exchange for breaking your armor next turn or for doing the same with a weapon

Skills in earth for adding acid damage to a weapon but causing it to lose durability quickly over time

no new skill trees, just adding unique skills to existing ones that interact with the durability value on weapons an darmor


Oh, I see now. By "skills" you meant an usable ability with cooldown like rage or fireball. Alright then, if it were implemented in such a way, I'd already be a lot more satisfied with it.

Originally Posted by Kalrakh


2a) It is ridiculous, that identifying an item destroys a identifying glass. What the hell are you doing for identifying? Smashing it on the item while saying a magic word? Replace the glass by either scrolls, to make it a logical consumable or replace it with some kind of magical item/orb, that comes with charges. Charges will be consumed depending on the rarity of the item. More rare items need more charges of course.

2b) Add an option to activate 'automatic identification' of items and if you make scrolls for heavens sake don't make scrolls of different rarity of identification, you already have to skill Loremaster and invest social points for this.


^ +1
Posted By: aj0413 Re: Let's talk about durability - 24/10/16 10:00 AM
Originally Posted by GrumpyMcGrump
Originally Posted by aj0413

I think your interpreting me wrong:
Crafting&Blacksmithing = repair skill, no new tree

Durability related skills:
Skills in Warfare for targeting enemy weapons or armor

Skills in Air magic for boosting armor in exchange for breaking your armor next turn or for doing the same with a weapon

Skills in earth for adding acid damage to a weapon but causing it to lose durability quickly over time

no new skill trees, just adding unique skills to existing ones that interact with the durability value on weapons an darmor


Oh, I see now. By "skills" you meant an usable ability with cooldown like rage or fireball. Alright then, if it were implemented in such a way, I'd already be a lot more satisfied with it.

Originally Posted by Kalrakh


2a) It is ridiculous, that identifying an item destroys a identifying glass. What the hell are you doing for identifying? Smashing it on the item while saying a magic word? Replace the glass by either scrolls, to make it a logical consumable or replace it with some kind of magical item/orb, that comes with charges. Charges will be consumed depending on the rarity of the item. More rare items need more charges of course.

2b) Add an option to activate 'automatic identification' of items and if you make scrolls for heavens sake don't make scrolls of different rarity of identification, you already have to skill Loremaster and invest social points for this.


^ +1


Glad I could convey my point and get you to concede that :P

I don't think it'd be that hard to get everyone to appreciate an evolved system as you make it out to be.

There are some easy to understand and implement ideas that would obviously improve things for everyone
Posted By: aj0413 Re: Let's talk about durability - 24/10/16 10:02 AM
Originally Posted by Kalrakh
Two make both sides happy, we need a way to easy it for one side and to keep it for the other side.

For this case I think, we need more realism:

1a) A tool doesn't break, just because you repaired one single item. A tool will brake, if you use it again and again to repair. -> Give Repair hammer charges that get consumed for every point of durability they are repairing.

1b) Having to repair every single part of equipment is totally annoying. Implement a button, that repairs all equipped items at once, consuming the specific number of charges. But it shouldn't repair items in your inventory automatically.

2a) It is ridiculous, that identifying an item destroys a identifying glass. What the hell are you doing for identifying? Smashing it on the item while saying a magic word? Replace the glass by either scrolls, to make it a logical consumable or replace it with some kind of magical item/orb, that comes with charges. Charges will be consumed depending on the rarity of the item. More rare items need more charges of course.

2b) Add an option to activate 'automatic identification' of items and if you make scrolls for heavens sake don't make scrolls of different rarity of identification, you already have to skill Loremaster and invest social points for this.


+1

This guys gets it. Also, yeah, all of those ideas should be done.
Posted By: Alanta Re: Let's talk about durability - 24/10/16 10:20 AM
I will not hate it no matter what. But I've yet to see a suggestion that for me is better than just removing durability completely.
And by "better" I mean it:
1. doesn't feel pointless
2. doesn't feel tedious
If all I need to do is pressing repair all from time to time why keep durability at all? It just adds nothing to the game.

I get the argument that bashing things would logically break your weapon. So here's my suggestion:
1. Remove durability
2. With a whetstone a melee weapon can be buffed with "sharp" effect for a certain (big) amount of attacks
3. When you bash chests or doors with a melee weapon it gets a permanent damage debuff
4. Additionally when you bash a chest open instead of lockpicking it fragile items inside break
5. Ranged weapons don't get debuffs from bashing chests but chests and doors are resistant to ranged attacks
Posted By: GrumpyMcGrump Re: Let's talk about durability - 24/10/16 10:25 AM
Originally Posted by aj0413


Glad I could convey my point and get you to concede that :P

I don't think it'd be that hard to get everyone to appreciate an evolved system as you make it out to be.

There are some easy to understand and implement ideas that would obviously improve things for everyone


I'm not 100% against repairing equipment, even if I don't like it and I don't miss such a feature if it isn't present. As long as it is done in an unobtrusive, quick and painless manner, I can live with it just fine.
Posted By: aj0413 Re: Let's talk about durability - 24/10/16 10:36 AM
Originally Posted by GrumpyMcGrump
Originally Posted by aj0413


Glad I could convey my point and get you to concede that :P

I don't think it'd be that hard to get everyone to appreciate an evolved system as you make it out to be.

There are some easy to understand and implement ideas that would obviously improve things for everyone


I'm not 100% against repairing equipment, even if I don't like it and I don't miss such a feature if it isn't present. As long as it is done in an unobtrusive, quick and painless manner, I can live with it just fine.


Progress!!

And you reasoning is exactly why I say more people would be happy for just impriving the system.

Pleasing:
One half of the total player base + half of the half saying remove it = the majority

Ideally, durability would involve more than just repairing stuff since the idea that that's all it does and is there for is rather tacked on; which is why the durability related cooldown abilities being added to the various existing skill trees would improve things majorly and be well recieved I think...it'd also simply be really interesting addition to combat tactics
Posted By: Naqel Re: Let's talk about durability - 24/10/16 11:00 AM
Originally Posted by aj0413
The idea behind durability being immersive is pretty simple. Items aren't indestructible. I can bash open a door, I can break a stick I use as a weapon, so on and so forth.

It's intuitive to ones understanding of the world and how things work.

It's immersive that such intuitive thoughts hold true. Going counter to them is being the opposite of immersive.


What you state here is not an absolute truth, and in the specific case of Divinity it can be said to be absolutely false.

A vast majority of games only ever encompasses a span of time/usage within which an item would realistically be effectively indestructible, that is to say it would only break under unusual circumstances, and suffer no worthwhile wear over the course of the entire game.

In that way, it is entirely a break of immersion for the sake of gameplay(introducing a drain on the players resources) to have items break as fast at they do, often costing more to repair than they would to replace, and as mentioned by a few other people, gear maintenance is not a relevant part of the experience the player is immersed in when playing Divinity.

Immersion =/= realism. Realism is only a tool for building immersion, but not a pre-requisite for immersion to be achieved.
Posted By: aj0413 Re: Let's talk about durability - 24/10/16 11:36 AM
Originally Posted by Naqel
Originally Posted by aj0413
The idea behind durability being immersive is pretty simple. Items aren't indestructible. I can bash open a door, I can break a stick I use as a weapon, so on and so forth.

It's intuitive to ones understanding of the world and how things work.

It's immersive that such intuitive thoughts hold true. Going counter to them is being the opposite of immersive.


What you state here is not an absolute truth, and in the specific case of Divinity it can be said to be absolutely false.

A vast majority of games only ever encompasses a span of time/usage within which an item would realistically be effectively indestructible, that is to say it would only break under unusual circumstances, and suffer no worthwhile wear over the course of the entire game.

In that way, it is entirely a break of immersion for the sake of gameplay(introducing a drain on the players resources) to have items break as fast at they do, often costing more to repair than they would to replace, and as mentioned by a few other people, gear maintenance is not a relevant part of the experience the player is immersed in when playing Divinity.

Immersion =/= realism. Realism is only a tool for building immersion, but not a pre-requisite for immersion to be achieved.


You realise I've been trying to move past this entire aspect of the discussion since it's both irrelevant and relative to ones own opinion on their interpretation of immersive qualities?

You're own rejoinder isn't an absolute. No ones is. Thus why are you focusing on the subject? It may seem relevant to define immersion in relation to D:OS, but it really isnt for the sake of discussing durablity (1) and it'd have no end since it's opinion based (2)

People want durability, for whatever reasons; some of those reasons so happen to include immersive RP values for them. -> This is an opinion. This is a relative stance to take based on their own wants.

Trying to argue down an opinion like this is like trying to argue moral philosophy.....aimless and endless
Posted By: Alanta Re: Let's talk about durability - 24/10/16 11:40 AM
You are saying that people want durability but so far I saw only 2 or 3 posters who are strictly against removing it and you are one of them. Is there really a large group of people wanting to keep durability?
Posted By: GrumpyMcGrump Re: Let's talk about durability - 24/10/16 11:43 AM
How I wish this forum had a polling mechanism....
Posted By: aj0413 Re: Let's talk about durability - 24/10/16 11:49 AM
Originally Posted by Alanta
You are saying that people want durability but so far I saw only 2 or 3 posters who are strictly against removing it and you are one of them. Is there really a large groupe of people wanting to keep durability?


Sigh....there've been a lot of threads on this; the more active users just so happen to also be the ones who want it gone.

Shrug....A polling mechanism would be enjoyable here, but there's also the issue of things like the kickstarter skill tree vote happening.

Which really just backs up the point of not removing and evolving the system to keep from alienating those who want it and to please those who really just need it to change to satisfy them

There's some clear suggestions the majority of people agree with: "Repair All" button being one of them. Why do we have to argue about this rather than just compromise and build on the points everyone can agree with?
Posted By: Alanta Re: Let's talk about durability - 24/10/16 12:00 PM
Repair All would surely improve things. But you forget about the group that just wants it removed because it's pointless. There's no way to please everybody and I'd rather see resourses needed to improve durability spent elsewhere.

Also what's wrong with skill tree vote and how does it back up the point of keeping durability?
Posted By: aj0413 Re: Let's talk about durability - 24/10/16 12:19 PM
Originally Posted by Alanta
Repair All would surely improve things. But you forget about the group that just wants it removed because it's pointless. There's no way to please everybody and I'd rather see resourses needed to improve durability spent elsewhere.

Also what's wrong with skill tree vote and how does it back up the point of keeping durability?


It was response to the polling suggestion

And there are plenty of suggestions on how to make durability not pointless. Just look above on this page
Posted By: Alanta Re: Let's talk about durability - 24/10/16 12:30 PM
I should have said I want it removed because all the suggestions would make it either pointless or tedious or would require too much work to implement.
Posted By: Naqel Re: Let's talk about durability - 24/10/16 12:56 PM
Originally Posted by Alanta
all the suggestions would make it either pointless or tedious or would require too much work to implement.


This is largely the reason durability as a number should be gone.

The only good solution that didn't fully remove the mechanic so far was to have an item exist in the states of broken and not broken, with penalties for being broken.

Even that was just the good parts of an overall bad idea.
Posted By: Hiver Re: Let's talk about durability - 24/10/16 03:08 PM

Suggestion:
Make physically bashing destroy some of the "soft items" in the crates and boxes, but not any of the harder, sturdier ones like weapons, armor and similar.
Because it makes sense.

That and making bashing attract guards, raise alarms and similar (where it should be logically expected only) will provide good balance versus stealth thievery.
You already have doors that cannot be physically broken, so why not a few of special crates of that kind too?

Make burning, freezing or electrocuting loot boxes destroy more items, including sturdier ones.

Also, i think if you make it that once i select attack on an item the animation of hitting it becomes automatic and repeats until it or my weapons break - so i dont have to select attack fifty times myself - will remove majority of the complaints about it.

If it was me, i would make durability have tiered negative effect on the item stats. So a player with low repair stat could only fix them partially.
(same thing for loot from enemies, which will make high repair skill more valuable but players could still play without it)

I would then also use that mechanic to make items in loot boxes slightly or more damaged caused by physically or magically forcing them open.

That would also make thievery even more valuable and i think some xp for success wouldn't be amiss either.

I would also like to see lockpicks break only occasionally, due to low skills and critical fails - not all the time. So a skilled thief would not break her lockpicks all the time even if she fails to open the lock immediately. That would then become a natural sign that a lock is too difficult for that level of skill - if attempted by a skilled thief, but nothing more.
The point is, skilled thieves do not break their lockpicks.
And they usually dont jam the locks either.

Low skilled thieves would then break the lockpicks all the time and jam the locks all the time.
Necessitating a more robust approach and loss of some items depending on whether physical or magical force is used.

If a character doesnt have any thievery skills i would completely disable the option to even attempt lockpicking.
Posted By: NeutroniumDragon Re: Let's talk about durability - 25/10/16 02:34 AM
Durability is an ineffective way to discourage bashing chests or doors open since there are far too many ways to render it meaningless (spells, throwaway weapons, fists, etc) and it adds an obnoxious amount of micromanagement to the overall game for the sake of one issue.

Breaking items in the chest is, if anything, even worse, since it imposes a "correct" way to play (Thou Shalt Take Lockpicking) and if someone wants to argue realism, the realistic way to open a chest or door would be to use a crowbar, or perhaps one of those pieces of scrap metal lying around everywhere, to lever it open rather than supposing that "wail on it with a greatsword" is the only possible method of forcing it open. For that matter, you could "realistically" just pick up a screwdriver - or a rock and nail - and dismantle the lock or hinges at no risk to the contents.

A lock doesn't keep people out by itself. It's just there to slow down/inconvenience someone who wants to get in, making it more likely that they'll get caught in the meantime. As it happens, all of the in-game options DO take time and most make noise, increasing the chance of discovery (especially with the new tracking system). Given that, durability/breakage is superfluous.
Posted By: aj0413 Re: Let's talk about durability - 25/10/16 06:37 AM
Originally Posted by NeutroniumDragon
Durability is an ineffective way to discourage bashing chests or doors open since there are far too many ways to render it meaningless (spells, throwaway weapons, fists, etc) and it adds an obnoxious amount of micromanagement to the overall game for the sake of one issue.

Breaking items in the chest is, if anything, even worse, since it imposes a "correct" way to play (Thou Shalt Take Lockpicking) and if someone wants to argue realism, the realistic way to open a chest or door would be to use a crowbar, or perhaps one of those pieces of scrap metal lying around everywhere, to lever it open rather than supposing that "wail on it with a greatsword" is the only possible method of forcing it open. For that matter, you could "realistically" just pick up a screwdriver - or a rock and nail - and dismantle the lock or hinges at no risk to the contents.

A lock doesn't keep people out by itself. It's just there to slow down/inconvenience someone who wants to get in, making it more likely that they'll get caught in the meantime. As it happens, all of the in-game options DO take time and most make noise, increasing the chance of discovery (especially with the new tracking system). Given that, durability/breakage is superfluous.


You've only managed to list out problems everyone here agrees on to some extent or another.

The topic is whether or not we can/should move towards fixing it so durability isn't a tacked on meaningless addition.

Originally Posted by Naqel
Originally Posted by Alanta
all the suggestions would make it either pointless or tedious or would require too much work to implement.


This is largely the reason durability as a number should be gone.

The only good solution that didn't fully remove the mechanic so far was to have an item exist in the states of broken and not broken, with penalties for being broken.

Even that was just the good parts of an overall bad idea.


You just made wide sweeping statements without actually saying anything in regards to the actual suggestions themselves.

1. How is repair all tedious or hard to implement?
2. Making repair hammers consumables is tedious?
3. Connecting repair feature to crafting skill level is hard and or pointless?
4. Durability related abilities being added to skill trees sounds tedious or pointless? Really?
5. A reward bonus for durability/gear upkeep? How exactly do you find this hard to introduce?

Please point out how any of those ideas are 'pointless' and/or 'tedious.' Cause all of them address those two points specifically.

Further, you're point on too much work is a misnomer, most of that would be fairly easy depending on how they did things. On 'if-statement' takes care of point 5. A single function call for 1. A slight change in object interaction for 2 and 3. Hell, most of those don't even require new assets or anything. Just some added code.

The only thing their you have a point on actually require some substantial work would be adding durability related abilities.

To which I say, It would actually add to the combat and help make physical characters much more interesting. Which they desperately need with their three skill trees (one for each class) encompassing three types of play throughs.

It'd also add in new types of characters that are more hybrid oriented, like an air-warrior.

So.....yeah. Point 4 actually not only helps with this but other problems as well. I'd push and say they should implement such a thing, or something similar, no matter what they do for the durability in the future.

Posted By: NeutroniumDragon Re: Let's talk about durability - 25/10/16 06:59 AM
Originally Posted by aj0413

You've only managed to list out problems everyone here agrees on to some extent or another.

The topic is whether or not we can/should move towards fixing it so durability isn't a tacked on meaningless addition.


No, I've set forth why I feel that it should be dropped entirely: it doesn't do what it's supposed to do and other elements of the game already do the job better.
Posted By: aj0413 Re: Let's talk about durability - 25/10/16 07:04 AM
Originally Posted by NeutroniumDragon
Originally Posted by aj0413

You've only managed to list out problems everyone here agrees on to some extent or another.

The topic is whether or not we can/should move towards fixing it so durability isn't a tacked on meaningless addition.


No, I've set forth why I feel that it should be dropped entirely: it doesn't do what it's supposed to do and other elements of the game already do the job better.


Here's how your posting reads:

Durability -> Here's what's wrong with it and why other mechanics make it moot
Follow up -> It's thus superfluous in it's current state
End point -> So we should get rid of it

My issue with that logic is simple:
Getting rid of something just cause it's broken does not jive with me. Never has, never will.

It's broken, it's superfluous so we fix it; or at least attempt to.
Posted By: Scorpyon Re: Let's talk about durability - 25/10/16 09:12 AM
Originally Posted by Lar
If you bash open a wooden chest, you know you'll pay with durability. The cost here is that eventually that'll cause you to have to consume a repair hammer which has a gold value.


Wait, what?!
I'm guessing this mechanic itself must be broken because I've repaired items left right and centre with just the one repair hammer which has never run out.
Were they supposed to be 1-shots then?
Posted By: Raze Re: Let's talk about durability - 25/10/16 10:07 AM

Repair hammers were made consumable in the last update (v3.0.5.530), as a test.
Posted By: 4verse Re: Let's talk about durability - 25/10/16 12:05 PM
give weapons that were used against doors, chests, etc a debuff. the more a weapon hits a door the severe the debuff.

debuff could be less damage in battle, eg:
the next 2 hits against a foe only do 90% damage.
the next 3 hits ... 90% damge.
the next 4 hits ... 90% damage.
...

or

the next 2 hits against a foe only do 90% damage.
the next 2 hits ... 80% damage
the next 2 hits ... 70% damage
...

or a combination of both.

could be remedied with a repair hammer, so we have "some kind" of repairing without the durability curse ;-)
Posted By: Naqel Re: Let's talk about durability - 25/10/16 04:39 PM
Originally Posted by aj0413
It's broken, it's superfluous so we fix it

By the definition of superfluous, the way to fix it is to trim or remove entirely.

Durability isn't a fun way to introduce a drain on the player's resources, and in the context of Divinity it isn't an engaging one either. It doesn't contribute in a relevant way towards immersion, and it is frustrating to keep track of and maintain.
It should either be gone completely(the efficient way), or replaced with a different system.
Posted By: aj0413 Re: Let's talk about durability - 25/10/16 10:20 PM
Originally Posted by Naqel
Originally Posted by aj0413
It's broken, it's superfluous so we fix it

By the definition of superfluous, the way to fix it is to trim or remove entirely.

Durability isn't a fun way to introduce a drain on the player's resources, and in the context of Divinity it isn't an engaging one either. It doesn't contribute in a relevant way towards immersion, and it is frustrating to keep track of and maintain.
It should either be gone completely(the efficient way), or replaced with a different system.


By definition it's a state of being and states of being can be changed.

No one is arguing about the current state of durability. Nor do we need to go back to the argument on immersion; I find it does add to it, you don't. End of story there.

Nearly every suggestion to reinvent/evolve durability as a resource is designed to target:
- Make it painless
- Make it relevant
- Make it interesting/engaging

I implore you to actually read and comment on the suggestions I keep pointing at. You seem determined to either ignore them or refuse to actually think and consider them and how they might effect things.

If all the suggestions I keep reiterating were actually implemented I think you'd find the idea of durability and the system it's a part of different enough to nearly be a new one

The current system is so bare bones that it really needs to evolve before you can even consider it a complete mechanic.
Posted By: aj0413 Re: Let's talk about durability - 25/10/16 10:23 PM
Originally Posted by Raze

Repair hammers were made consumable in the last update (v3.0.5.530), as a test.


Yay!
Posted By: Alanta Re: Let's talk about durability - 25/10/16 11:12 PM
Alright, I'll comment on actual suggestions you listed.
1. If all I need to do in regards to durability is pressing repair all from time to time then yes, it's pointless.
2. Yes, making repair hammers consumables is tedious. Because running to every merchant as soon as they restock in hopes they now have more repair hammers is tedious. Especially since bad rng is possible where they don't spawn any.
3. Connecting repair feature to crafting skill makes it necessary to pick that skill on somebody if I want to keep using my gear. I don't like when I have to pick something.
4. Durability related abilities might be interesting. But that'd make crafting skill even more essential. And such abilities are exactly what I meant by hard to implement.
5. A reward bonus for durability/gear upkeep. I'm the kind of player who prefers my builds to be perfect. If there's a reward I'll feel obliged to get this reward. Especially if it gives non-combat related bonuses. Which means this suggestion forces me to deal with durability.
Thus yes, every suggestion you pointed is either tedious, pointless or hard to implement.
Posted By: aj0413 Re: Let's talk about durability - 25/10/16 11:26 PM
Originally Posted by Alanta
Alright, I'll comment on actual suggestions you listed.
1. If all I need to do in regards to durability is pressing repair all from time to time then yes, it's pointless.
2. Yes, making repair hammers consumables is tedious. Because running to every merchant as soon as they restock in hopes they now have more repair hammers is tedious. Especially since bad rng is possible where they don't spawn any.
3. Connecting repair feature to crafting skill makes it necessary to pick that skill on somebody if I want to keep using my gear. I don't like when I have to pick something.
4. Durability related abilities might be interesting. But that'd make crafting skill even more essential. And such abilities are exactly what I meant by hard to implement.
5. A reward bonus for durability/gear upkeep. I'm the kind of player who prefers my builds to be perfect. If there's a reward I'll feel obliged to get this reward. Especially if it gives non-combat related bonuses. Which means this suggestion forces me to deal with durability.
Thus yes, every suggestion you pointed is either tedious, pointless or hard to implement.


You do realize that you can just pay an NPC for repairs yes?

All your points essentially boil down to having to do the repairing yourself and why that bothers you -> you've never had to

Thus, the only thing that connecting crafting to repair does in your playstyle is determine whether to spend points to save gold or not.

And if you want perfect damage, you need crafting anyway.

Further, considering how common repair hammers are in RNG and merchant stocks, i find the idea that a player who wants to do the repair themselves will ever run out when they need them.

Secondly, repair all solves tediousness, not pointlessness. All the suggestions have to be taken as a whole package
Posted By: vometia Re: Let's talk about durability - 25/10/16 11:31 PM
I must admit I really, really hate the consumable repair hammers and identifying glasses. I find it conceptually bothersome but with repair in particular it makes an already quite tedious game mechanic that bit more insufferable. frown

In the former case my inclination is now to not bother repairing stuff but to just carry spares around instead. Which I also dislike as I prefer to keep my equipment down to a low level, but I find it's the least worst solution in terms of overall annoyance.
Posted By: Alanta Re: Let's talk about durability - 25/10/16 11:35 PM
That makes things a bit more bearable, yes. But your main suggestion seems to be durability related skills. If an enemy can break my weapon in the middle of the battle I need both crafting skill and repair hammers on everybody just in case.
And running to merchants to repair my gear after each battle is also tedious though less so than hunting for hammers.
About repair hammers being common. Lockpicks are common. Still I need to hunt for them when I decide I want to lockpick every locked chest. If I need to repair my gear after each battle (to keep the bonuses you suggest) I will run out of hammers.
Posted By: aj0413 Re: Let's talk about durability - 25/10/16 11:41 PM
Originally Posted by vometia
I must admit I really, really hate the consumable repair hammers and identifying glasses. I find it conceptually bothersome but with repair in particular it makes an already quite tedious game mechanic that bit more insufferable. frown

In the former case my inclination is now to not bother repairing stuff but to just carry spares around instead. Which I also dislike as I prefer to keep my equipment down to a low level, but I find it's the least worst solution in terms of overall annoyance.


I can fairly understand this, but I think the issue here is that making hammers consumable and leaving in the tedious click for each item and making each item consume a hammer the problem

A simple repiar all that repairs all equipment on one character and uses one hammer would be far easier to manage.

Or even give each hammer a few charges and let one charge coincide with one repair all.

How would you feel about these?

Originally Posted by Alanta
That makes things a bit more bearable, yes. But your main suggestion seems to be durability related skills. If an enemy can break my weapon in the middle of the battle I need both crafting skill and repair hammers on everybody just in case.
And running to merchants to repair my gear after each battle is also tedious though less so than hunting for hammers.
About repair hammers being common. Lockpicks are common. Still I need to hunt for them when I decide I want to lockpick every locked chest. If I need to repair my gear after each battle (to keep the bonuses you suggest) I will run out of hammers.


I refer you to my response above to solve the issue of them running out quickly.

Secondly, I imagine that durability skills targeting enemy armor/weapons would be exceedingly rare for both the AI and player to use; depends on how you implement them. Most of the suggestions revolve around buffing yourself at the cost of durability. At which point if your weapon breaks, that was all you.

And the gear upkeep rewards are suppose to be transitional and temporary buffs like the sleeping bag one. If you really feel the need to have it up at all possible times and need to keep lots of hammers and invest in crafting to do so for, then I find that an appropriate cost to feed your perfectionist habit. Do you also eat ate every single opportunity to have a buff active? Same thing here, except instead of a turn cooldown, it lasts till you bash something a couple times

EDIT:
The idea that you "need' to keep full durability after every battle is purely a self created one. It's like saying you need to be able to crit with spells or you need to be able to use a specific skill to play the game....

Mechanically, none of the suggestions create a need, they just encourage dipping into crafting or paying attention to durability a bit more to keep it interesting,
Posted By: Alanta Re: Let's talk about durability - 25/10/16 11:54 PM
Originally Posted by aj0413

A simple repiar all that repairs all equipment on one character and uses one hammer would be far easier to manage.

Or even give each hammer a few charges and let one charge coincide with one repair all.



What's the point of having consumable repair hammers if you can almost never run out of them? I guess that's my problem. If you always have enough that's pointless. If you always need more that's tedious.
Posted By: aj0413 Re: Let's talk about durability - 25/10/16 11:59 PM
Originally Posted by Alanta
Originally Posted by aj0413

A simple repiar all that repairs all equipment on one character and uses one hammer would be far easier to manage.

Or even give each hammer a few charges and let one charge coincide with one repair all.



What's the point of having consumable repair hammers if you can almost never run out of them? I guess that's my problem. If you always have enough that's pointless. If you always need more that's tedious.


That's a fair stance, but that's an issue in spectrum. And that means that within the range of too much and too little, their should be a just right amount.

The idea was that by connecting the amount of durability returned when repairing to crafting, then players who don't want to worry or needle over it would just have enough to keep equipment upkeep between city visits without tedious clicking and crafters would have more than enough to keep up the durability bonus between battles without worry and/or could self buff at risk of their weapons with far greater management

Consider for a moment how often you need to repair something, consider if you had one hammer to repair all worn equipement two times that cost 30 gold.

Would you ever feel pressured over the worry of equipment breaking?
Posted By: Alanta Re: Let's talk about durability - 26/10/16 12:06 AM
Originally Posted by aj0413

That's a fair stance, but that's an issue in spectrum. And that means that within the range of too much and too little, their should be a just right amount.

The idea was that by connecting the amount of durability returned when repairing to crafting, then players who don't want to worry or needle over it would just have enough to keep equipment upkeep between city visits without tedious clicking and crafters would have more than enough to keep up the durability bonus between battles without worry and/or could self buff at risk of their weapons with far greater management

Consider for a moment how often you need to repair something, consider if you had one hammer to repair all worn equipement two times that cost 30 gold.

Would you ever feel pressured over the worry of equipment breaking?

Well, that could work for me I guess. But balancing all that and adding new skills and repair charges is a lot of work that I'd rather see going to a mechanic I actually like instead of something I at best barely care about and at worst just want gone.
Posted By: aj0413 Re: Let's talk about durability - 26/10/16 12:29 AM
Originally Posted by Alanta
Originally Posted by aj0413

That's a fair stance, but that's an issue in spectrum. And that means that within the range of too much and too little, their should be a just right amount.

The idea was that by connecting the amount of durability returned when repairing to crafting, then players who don't want to worry or needle over it would just have enough to keep equipment upkeep between city visits without tedious clicking and crafters would have more than enough to keep up the durability bonus between battles without worry and/or could self buff at risk of their weapons with far greater management

Consider for a moment how often you need to repair something, consider if you had one hammer to repair all worn equipement two times that cost 30 gold.

Would you ever feel pressured over the worry of equipment breaking?

Well, that could work for me I guess. But balancing all that and adding new skills and repair charges is a lot of work that I'd rather see going to a mechanic I actually like instead of something I at best barely care about and at worst just want gone.


Thank you, this is the kind of stuff I've been trying to convey that others seem to disregard.

Like i've said, your feelings are mirrored by many saying 'just remove' it. I find the idea that they dont even want to contemplate trying to fix things slightly unbearable and that they are more willing to work to remove it, since that requires work of it's own, slightly annoying.

To others the concept of keeping durability in is slightly more important. So I feel more would be happy if things were simply changed and fixed.

As to whether that work should go here or other problems? I leave that to the devs. Personally, I'm the kind that would work continuously on one mechanic, no matter how others see it, till I got it right before moving on.

The fact that it's kind of a controversy an the devs care and seem to want it in makes me inclined to think they may slate this higher.

Lots of things need work and some are obviously higher priority: Ex. Stat system

But i can not comment on how the general priority list should go for them; not my place.

All, I've done is try give feedback on how to fix something that's 'broken'....which is really how I see this should be discussed.

How to fix it, not whether it's important or not, and certainly not whether it's inconsequential enough to be removed......Those later considerations are dev ones as far as I'm concerned
Posted By: Naqel Re: Let's talk about durability - 26/10/16 12:45 AM
Originally Posted by aj0413
- Make it painless
- Make it relevant
- Make it interesting/engaging

To be relevant and engaging a system for siphoning players resources must, by the very nature of what it's meant to do, be an inconvenience when ignored.

If durability maintenance is made to require no effort, and cause no frustration, it might as well not exist.
It doesn't really matter if the enemies drop 10% less gold, or if I spend 10% of the gold on repairs when I get back to town. The end result is I have 10% less gold.

As far as the engaging parts such a system can have, I already made a suggestion which retains all of them with none of the pains of maintenance.

-A way to open containers you can't lockpick, with a cost attached to it(crowbars instead of spares).
-The interesting part of weapons being broken mid-combat(having to re-equip).
Posted By: aj0413 Re: Let's talk about durability - 26/10/16 05:54 AM
Originally Posted by Naqel
Originally Posted by aj0413
- Make it painless
- Make it relevant
- Make it interesting/engaging

To be relevant and engaging a system for siphoning players resources must, by the very nature of what it's meant to do, be an inconvenience when ignored.

If durability maintenance is made to require no effort, and cause no frustration, it might as well not exist.
It doesn't really matter if the enemies drop 10% less gold, or if I spend 10% of the gold on repairs when I get back to town. The end result is I have 10% less gold.

As far as the engaging parts such a system can have, I already made a suggestion which retains all of them with none of the pains of maintenance.

-A way to open containers you can't lockpick, with a cost attached to it(crowbars instead of spares).
-The interesting part of weapons being broken mid-combat(having to re-equip).


I'm aware of your suggestions; and if you noticed, I endorsed the concept behind them on using a crowbar and removing enemy weapons and armor in combat...I just enjoy the idea of durability as more mentally engaging foundation than what you suggest.

As for painless = pointless, well my points and suggestions were to make it not tedious; as in there's costs and gains, but the process itself need not be painful in management: ex. point and click for each individual item.

Like wise, having to worry about weapon breakage every couple hits is taking things too far.

There's a necessary balancing act in things like this.

The resource drain needs to be felt, but also manageable. The resource need be relevant. Managing the resource should be tied to other mechanics for more engagement. Proper well done management should return rewards. The resource should also be tied to other core mechanics like combat in interesting and engaging ways.

Quite frankly, if you remove durability and the stats of broken or not broken and took your ideas as is, where you de-equip enemy armor for a few turns, I'd balk at it. I'd rather not have those in at all.

Either have durability in some form and work with it or toss the concept all together. No half measures.

If you're going to move away from things like durability, remove food as well, and drinks too I guess. No point there either. And plenty of other RP related mechanics that don't directly related to merchants, story, and combat......

But at the end of the day, I......cannot find games like that compelling. Diablo for instance only has combat, buying/crafting things to make your character better at combat, and a story line.....that game is incredibly dull in my eyes

EDIT:
There's indirect value to all those little things. Hell, I also want the food and drink systems made more relevant and beds too for that matter. Even if as only gimicks or niche things
Posted By: Alanta Re: Let's talk about durability - 26/10/16 11:42 AM
Originally Posted by aj0413

If you're going to move away from things like durability, remove food as well, and drinks too I guess. No point there either. And plenty of other RP related mechanics that don't directly related to merchants, story, and combat......

But at the end of the day, I......cannot find games like that compelling. Diablo for instance only has combat, buying/crafting things to make your character better at combat, and a story line.....that game is incredibly dull in my eyes

EDIT:
There's indirect value to all those little things. Hell, I also want the food and drink systems made more relevant and beds too for that matter. Even if as only gimicks or niche things


Please, no. I'm sure if the mod tools are good after the release somebody'll make one of those survival mods I never install. Personally I hate managing food in games. Unless the game is specifically desined around managing very limited resourses to survive. But that'd be a different genre.

I wouldn't miss food if they decided to remove it btw.
Posted By: aj0413 Re: Let's talk about durability - 26/10/16 11:49 AM
Originally Posted by Alanta
Originally Posted by aj0413

If you're going to move away from things like durability, remove food as well, and drinks too I guess. No point there either. And plenty of other RP related mechanics that don't directly related to merchants, story, and combat......

But at the end of the day, I......cannot find games like that compelling. Diablo for instance only has combat, buying/crafting things to make your character better at combat, and a story line.....that game is incredibly dull in my eyes

EDIT:
There's indirect value to all those little things. Hell, I also want the food and drink systems made more relevant and beds too for that matter. Even if as only gimicks or niche things


Please, no. I'm sure if the mod tools are good after the release somebody'll make one of those survival mods I never install. Personally I hate managing food in games. Unless the game is specifically desined around managing very limited resourses to survive. But that'd be a different genre.

I wouldn't miss food if they decided to remove it btw.


*sigh* Which is my point. None of those things, nor durability, should be a necessary mechanic to gameplay nor should they be a reminder of survival mechanics. Food and drink for instance are there for sheer fun value and as an interesting thing for crafters to do to also help in combat and stuff.

There mere existence, however, lends weight to the experience. They add things that help being the setting to life.

If D:OS 2 ends up boiled down to nothing more than a chess like combat strategy game? I'd be very disappointed. The RPG values in the jokes, the storyline, the little things that bring life into the settings such as food and the ability to get drunk. The durability too. All these add to the experience heavily to me as a complete package.
Posted By: Alanta Re: Let's talk about durability - 26/10/16 12:01 PM
Originally Posted by aj0413

If D:OS 2 ends up boiled down to nothing more than a chess like combat strategy game? I'd be very disappointed. The RPG values in the jokes, the storyline, the little things that bring life into the settings such as food and the ability to get drunk. The durability too. All these add to the experience heavily to me as a complete package.


I guess I just value different things in an RPG. I'm annoyed when Sebille kills Stingtail and the Red Prince is quietly watching. Or when the whole party joins Lohse attacking Sahelia. Or when magisters magically know I left fort Joy even though I quietly teleported out of it. Or when after slaughtering the entire fort Joy I'm starting to wonder how these weaklings were able to control prisoners at all. Or when after said deed prisoners behave like nothing changed. Or when nobody notices my party are murdering psychopats slaughtering everybody in sight.

These are immersion breaking for me. The lack of gear repairing? Not so much.
Posted By: aj0413 Re: Let's talk about durability - 26/10/16 12:08 PM
Originally Posted by Alanta
Originally Posted by aj0413

If D:OS 2 ends up boiled down to nothing more than a chess like combat strategy game? I'd be very disappointed. The RPG values in the jokes, the storyline, the little things that bring life into the settings such as food and the ability to get drunk. The durability too. All these add to the experience heavily to me as a complete package.


I guess I just value different things in an RPG. I'm annoyed when Sebille kills Stingtail and the Red Prince is quietly watching. Or when the whole party joins Lohse attacking Sahelia. Or when magisters magically know I left fort Joy even though I quietly teleported out of it. Or when after slaughtering the entire fort Joy I'm starting to wonder how these weaklings were able to control prisoners at all. Or when after said deed prisoners behave like nothing changed. Or when nobody notices my party are murdering psychopats slaughtering everybody in sight.

These are immersion breaking for me. The lack of gear repairing? Not so much.


That all matters to me as well. *shrug* I just see it all as one package. One complete package. Which means I want every mechanic and component to be the best it can.

Saying I value durability and the ability to cook and make food doesn't mean I don't equally value other things.
Posted By: Seelenernter Re: Let's talk about durability - 26/10/16 01:01 PM
I definately like a durability system. Sadly with the, imho, quite crappy controls of characters and inventory (can't select multiple characters or do things simultaneously) it's indeed a PITA.
So there's imho the place to fix it.

As for the "%-chance to break irrepairable weapon on smashing doors/etc" idea... HELL, PLEASE NO!
Why? Well... break, reload, break, reload, break, reload... I think you get my point. That's bad enough with the loot RNG already.
Plus... how much integrity does the game world offer if your steel sword breaks hitting a single wooden door but you can slay a hundred adamantium golems with it? Thanks, but no thanks.
Posted By: vometia Re: Let's talk about durability - 26/10/16 01:26 PM
I do like the idea of food/drink/sleep as a requirement and usually use it when it's an option; I kinda miss it when it's not, although with no day/night cycle I guess it's of more questionable relevance. Though I can see why some people aren't keen on it in the same way that I'm not so keen on the current implementation of durability, especially not with consumable hammers. I wouldn't want it to go completely, but I definitely think it could be revised somewhat.

I also like the idea of enhanced wear when using a weapon as a crowbar: if it breaks it breaks and I have to live with the consequences. I guess I don't see any more need to reload than whatever inclination I feel when I get unimpressive loot (which is to say fairly little, with the exception of legendary type items when I admit I will often do multiple reloads to get something not crap).

But one-shot items like hammers and glasses irk me. I think in part it's due to the naming: if they were instead called "repair kits" and "identifying scrolls" (as someone suggested a while back) I'd be a bit more okay with it. But still fairly grumpy. Then again, I'm usually fairly grumpy anyway.
Posted By: Naqel Re: Let's talk about durability - 26/10/16 02:36 PM
Originally Posted by aj0413

If you're going to move away from things like durability, remove food as well, and drinks too I guess. No point there either. And plenty of other RP related mechanics that don't directly related to merchants, story, and combat...


Ah, but you see, if gear maintenance was anything like food, it'd actually be a good system.
Effect duration aside, food is a great form of optional management.

Preparing and managing your meals(and potions, it is done the same way after all) is a task that takes some effort to perform, but it is entirely optional when you don't want to go through the effort.
If you don't take the time to eat before every fight(which should really be "eat in between fights"), you don't get the benefits from that, but you can win fights without it.
The system is also usable at a minimum effort: just eat whatever you have mid-combat and hope for the best.

When you choose to interact with the food system, you gain benefits.
When you're forced to maintain your gear, you do it to avoid penalties.
Posted By: aj0413 Re: Let's talk about durability - 26/10/16 03:09 PM
Originally Posted by Naqel
Originally Posted by aj0413

If you're going to move away from things like durability, remove food as well, and drinks too I guess. No point there either. And plenty of other RP related mechanics that don't directly related to merchants, story, and combat...


Ah, but you see, if gear maintenance was anything like food, it'd actually be a good system.
Effect duration aside, food is a great form of optional management.

Preparing and managing your meals(and potions, it is done the same way after all) is a task that takes some effort to perform, but it is entirely optional when you don't want to go through the effort.
If you don't take the time to eat before every fight(which should really be "eat in between fights"), you don't get the benefits from that, but you can win fights without it.
The system is also usable at a minimum effort: just eat whatever you have mid-combat and hope for the best.

When you choose to interact with the food system, you gain benefits.
When you're forced to maintain your gear, you do it to avoid penalties.


You've actually managed to convey a point I have to concede makes sense from certain values.

I don't necessarily agree with it, but I see it clearly and now understand your stance better.

Making durability the same would inherently go against the concept of durability and by the stance you point out, that does kind of make it make sense to remove it.

I get the angle. I just don't agree with it.

Seems to my view:
- The limited interaction to avoiding penalties can be brought to a level of little to no worry, so avoiding penalties isnt really a realistic problem or tedious task
- The possible rewards for interacting with the system can be varied and interesting
- The conceptual ideas behind durability as an idea in and of itself has much value to me

The idea of purely optional management has me a bit flummoxed, since I don't really see a way to counter that at all or even debate it really.

It's kind of a clear line in the sand that divides views on whether thats bad or not
Posted By: GrumpyMcGrump Re: Let's talk about durability - 26/10/16 05:54 PM
Originally Posted by Naqel

Ah, but you see, if gear maintenance was anything like food, it'd actually be a good system.
Effect duration aside, food is a great form of optional management.

Preparing and managing your meals(and potions, it is done the same way after all) is a task that takes some effort to perform, but it is entirely optional when you don't want to go through the effort.
If you don't take the time to eat before every fight(which should really be "eat in between fights"), you don't get the benefits from that, but you can win fights without it.
The system is also usable at a minimum effort: just eat whatever you have mid-combat and hope for the best.

When you choose to interact with the food system, you gain benefits.
When you're forced to maintain your gear, you do it to avoid penalties.


Kinda have to agree with naqel here. Couldn't have said it better myself.
Posted By: Ludvig Re: Let's talk about durability - 27/10/16 12:57 AM
Hello! Just here to give my own thoughts on durability.

I will likely misspell a few things.

First off, i am certain that before this patch so was repair hammers allready a consumable and tongs is what gave infinite amount of repairs, i remember it clearly because i put it in my feedback thread how i didnt see the point in repair hammers when you had tongs.

But perhaps i am just crazy?

Anyway, we will now go with the premise that tongs dont repair and we just got the repair hammers now.

How to punish bashing chest and doors without durability

I am a bit suprised this was one of the issues with removing durability.
I have never paused and thought about my decision if i wish to bash down a door or not because of the durability hit, for the simple reason that i find spells actiully more efficient.

If you want to make players think more carefully about bashing chest and doors i would not look at durability but look on the chest and doors.

Chest is a easy one which many has suggested, make it clear you have destroyed items in the chest, having useless loot pop up called "broken item" when you do it.

Doors is a bit more tricky because it depends on the area they are in, but if there is npc around then have them react and be alarmed.

If they are more in a dungeon you could make a sort of mimic door that attacks back if you attack it, spitting splinters, or they could have seals/runes/whatever on them that either give extra protection like regenerating armor/magic armor, or work like traps that for example cause a poison cloud when attacking.

These things is what i believe would make people pause and consider if they really want to bash that chest or door, very few has probebly ever decided not to bash in order to save durability.

So remove durability then?

Well i am not saying that, durability can have a place as long it aint annoying and serves a purpose, the annoying part is honestly rather easy, and it is what many has pointed out, have a repair all, both at vendors and somewhere outside like on the repair hammer itself or a button beside the character sheet.

So what purpose would durability serve?

Sure some find immersion in it, but that is rather subjective and i will focus more on a practical purpose.

You could have it in combat, but i aint so sure how well that would work, only if durability is at 0 so is that useful for you as the aggressor, a wepon at 1 durability works just as fine as one with 60, if this process is slow then it aint worth it, just focus on taking down the health.

And if the process is fast, then that is just annying as the defender, remember that gear gives more then just armor and damage, they give stats, and sometimes you can not use certain abilities or even other gear without it, and getting durability to 0 in combat is a permanent debuff, it aint like stun that goes away after a turn or two, trying to fix it with repairing mid combat honestly sound more annoying then fun.

So what purpose can you give durability?

You could change so you dont lose durability when wearing it, and instead focus more on it being a way to achieve loot, with that i mean you find broken items, perhaps just be chance on a field, or as a penelty because you bashed a chest, and in order to use the item so must you repair it.

You could as well have so if you repair something that is full durability so will it be "refined" and give for example 20% more armor or 5% more damage, and the effect wears off like current durability works until it reach the base amount.

You could also use the hammers for repairing objects in the world, such as a broken door, table, chair etc.
It serves no real purpose on its own but one could always make some sort of quest or path centered around it, for example there could be a broken lever to a bridge/gate and you can either go around it, or you can repair the lever and go throu.

The point is that these suggestions would make it so you can go throu the game without even repairing once, but if you do repair so are you rewarded.

And yes with these suggestions so do i think hammers should be consumables.

PS: Dont like identify glass be a consumable, dont see the point with it, just makes you either run back to town or hold on un-identified items in case you find something you want to identify more, what is the reasoning behind that?
Posted By: Naqel Re: Let's talk about durability - 27/10/16 06:42 AM
Originally Posted by aj0413
Making durability the same would inherently go against the concept of durability and by the stance you point out, that does kind of make it make sense to remove it.

This is why durability as a stat has to go.
The fantasy for a blacksmith character isn't "I won't have to pay a sucker to fix my gear", it is "I'll make the best <favorite weapon> ever."

Equipment maintenance should be fun.
I we'd replace durability with upgrades, even if the system was as simple as "Sword +1", you'd still have gear maintenance, but it would operate on the same rules as food: optional benefit.
Using a "blacksmith's hammer" to dismantle an item for upgrade components would be infinitely more fun than using a "repair hammer" to make it not break can ever be.


Originally Posted by Ludvig
How to punish bashing chest and doors without durability

I am a bit suprised this was one of the issues with removing durability.

There is a whole bunch of reasons as to why bashing doors is generally a poor idea, chief of which is the fact that there will be doors you can't bash for plot/puzzle reasons.

Magic bashing is just a cherry on top.
Posted By: Madscientist Re: Let's talk about durability - 27/10/16 07:35 AM
Originally Posted by Ludvig


So what purpose can you give durability?

You could change so you dont lose durability when wearing it, and instead focus more on it being a way to achieve loot, with that i mean you find broken items, perhaps just be chance on a field, or as a penelty because you bashed a chest, and in order to use the item so must you repair it.

You could as well have so if you repair something that is full durability so will it be "refined" and give for example 20% more armor or 5% more damage, and the effect wears off like current durability works until it reach the base amount.

You could also use the hammers for repairing objects in the world, such as a broken door, table, chair etc.
It serves no real purpose on its own but one could always make some sort of quest or path centered around it, for example there could be a broken lever to a bridge/gate and you can either go around it, or you can repair the lever and go throu.

The point is that these suggestions would make it so you can go throu the game without even repairing once, but if you do repair so are you rewarded.

And yes with these suggestions so do i think hammers should be consumables.

PS: Dont like identify glass be a consumable, dont see the point with it, just makes you either run back to town or hold on un-identified items in case you find something you want to identify more, what is the reasoning behind that?


That is one of the best things I have read so far.
Until now we only talked about equipment being damaged through use in combat (plus bashing items) and we repair it back to the normal state.

I aggree that repair would be more meaningful if we can use it on other things than items in our inventory (In fallout 1 you needed some repair skill to get the water chip from the machine) or if we can use the skill to fix broken items that we find. The item can be broken because we just find a broken item somewhere or because we broke it ourselves (from bashing maybe).
In that case repairing would not be nessessary but it could give you some benefit if you do it (find different solutions for quests or repair things that broke because of bashing) and in that case it would make sense to have consumable repair items.
Posted By: Madscientist Re: Let's talk about durability - 27/10/16 07:38 AM
wow, I did not expect to find something new and meaningful after 10 pages of discussion.
I am really impressed up claphands
Posted By: Sotomonte Re: Let's talk about durability - 28/10/16 01:39 AM
A simple and fast solution would be:

Explorer Mode: no durability (non existent, or all items are never damaged)
Classic Mode: baby mode durability (need to repair is extremely rare, hammers don't disappear after usage)
Tactical Mode: items receive more damage and repair is really a need (hammers disappear after usage)

Some may not like fiddling around their inventories caring about every item, but I know it's something extremely enjoyable for people who are into itemization, micromanagement, economy and resource usage. I fear if people keep asking to remove things they think are a "chore", the game may become an ultraconsolized, streamlined crap, that require no brains, no effort on part of the players.
Posted By: Naqel Re: Let's talk about durability - 28/10/16 02:43 AM
Originally Posted by Sotomonte
I fear if people keep asking to remove things they think are a "chore", the game may become an ultraconsolized, streamlined crap, that require no brains, no effort on part of the players.


Wanting a more streamlined game, is not the same as wanting a shit one. The entire MOBA genre came from streamlining the Strategy genre down to a single unit per player, and going by it's popularity, the genre is anything but shit.

Altering how tedious repair is by difficulty solves none of the issues with the system and completely ignores the people who want to play against the toughest enemies, without also playing against the most tedious of maintenance.
Posted By: aj0413 Re: Let's talk about durability - 28/10/16 04:53 AM
Originally Posted by Naqel
Originally Posted by Sotomonte
I fear if people keep asking to remove things they think are a "chore", the game may become an ultraconsolized, streamlined crap, that require no brains, no effort on part of the players.


Wanting a more streamlined game, is not the same as wanting a shit one. The entire MOBA genre came from streamlining the Strategy genre down to a single unit per player, and going by it's popularity, the genre is anything but shit.

Altering how tedious repair is by difficulty solves none of the issues with the system and completely ignores the people who want to play against the toughest enemies, without also playing against the most tedious of maintenance.


Actually, I find MOBAS incredibly.....? What's the word? Not horrible, but you'd never find me playing one

At this point, me and you seem to have a fundamental differences in taste

Originally Posted by Sotomonte

Some may not like fiddling around their inventories caring about every item, but I know it's something extremely enjoyable for people who are into itemization, micromanagement, economy and resource usage. I fear if people keep asking to remove things they think are a "chore", the game may become an ultraconsolized, streamlined crap, that require no brains, no effort on part of the players.


Also, this. He pretty much captures my feelings on the matter and the fact that I do hate the idea of boiling down RPGs to their base components.

Skyirm is a good example of them streamlining things. I find Oblivion much better game over all.

EDIT:
As for Ludvig? I actually like his take on things. It's not my ideal, but like food and drinking and sleeping; it's a middle ground I can work with and around, I guess.

The idea of completely optional mechanics for everything isn't something that jives with me ultimately.
Posted By: vometia Re: Let's talk about durability - 28/10/16 06:19 AM
Originally Posted by aj0413
Skyirm is a good example of them streamlining things. I find Oblivion much better game over all.

Oblivion still remains my favourite RPG overall. Out of the box, it has some issues with scaling and loot, but they're easily enough fixed with an overhaul like OOO. I think the point being is that even if it needed some tweaking, the basic mechanisms were present in the game rather than being removed entirely.

Which is what I'd like to see in D:OS II: I don't want to chuck away durability completely (and yes, I usually play on explorer mode because I'm not very tactically-minded) but would just like to see it somewhat revised to be a bit less tedious. I'd probably be happy enough with a "repair all" option and slightly more durable repair kits, though as with Oblivion, it'd be nice if repair kits could become unbreakable with a high enough skill level.
Posted By: Naqel Re: Let's talk about durability - 28/10/16 06:21 AM
Originally Posted by aj0413
Skyirm is a good example of them streamlining things. I find Oblivion much better game over all.

Morrowind beats both(better lizards, machine gun enchanted rings), but what works in those, doesn't have to work in Divinity.

Divinity doesn't go for the simulation aspects, nor does it go for compulsive micromanagement.

From my post just above:
Originally Posted by Naqel

The fantasy for a blacksmith character isn't "I won't have to pay a sucker to fix my gear", it is "I'll make the best <favorite weapon> ever."
[...]
Using a "blacksmith's hammer" to dismantle an item for upgrade components would be infinitely more fun than using a "repair hammer" to make it not break can ever be.
Posted By: aj0413 Re: Let's talk about durability - 28/10/16 06:58 AM
Originally Posted by Naqel
Originally Posted by aj0413
Skyirm is a good example of them streamlining things. I find Oblivion much better game over all.

Morrowind beats both(better lizards, machine gun enchanted rings), but what works in those, doesn't have to work in Divinity.

Divinity doesn't go for the simulation aspects, nor does it go for compulsive micromanagement.

From my post just above:
Originally Posted by Naqel

The fantasy for a blacksmith character isn't "I won't have to pay a sucker to fix my gear", it is "I'll make the best <favorite weapon> ever."
[...]
Using a "blacksmith's hammer" to dismantle an item for upgrade components would be infinitely more fun than using a "repair hammer" to make it not break can ever be.


I actually never played morrowind so I wouldn't know, though I've heard good things.

And your right, they're differen't games. Doesn't mean I can't want aspects of both.

As to your second point:
Didn't I suggest the same thing? I mean, I know I've brought up dismantling things for components at least a few times O.o

Well, at the very least, we can say we both agree on that. Though I feel that's more an aspect of 'crafting' than durability/repair. No matter what happens with durability, being able to break things down for crafting should definitely be a thing.

*shrug* We should probably have a thread about the ways that crafting itself can be/should be expanded on....though I think I've also convered some of those points in the whole fix loot thing too. Lol so much bleed over between topics on gear

Originally Posted by vometia
Originally Posted by aj0413
Skyirm is a good example of them streamlining things. I find Oblivion much better game over all.

Oblivion still remains my favourite RPG overall. Out of the box, it has some issues with scaling and loot, but they're easily enough fixed with an overhaul like OOO. I think the point being is that even if it needed some tweaking, the basic mechanisms were present in the game rather than being removed entirely.

Which is what I'd like to see in D:OS II: I don't want to chuck away durability completely (and yes, I usually play on explorer mode because I'm not very tactically-minded) but would just like to see it somewhat revised to be a bit less tedious. I'd probably be happy enough with a "repair all" option and slightly more durable repair kits, though as with Oblivion, it'd be nice if repair kits could become unbreakable with a high enough skill level.


bow Pretty much this. You're thinking apparently mirrors mine.

I'd much rather see work put into fixing things than removing them.
Posted By: vometia Re: Let's talk about durability - 28/10/16 07:34 AM
Originally Posted by aj0413
I actually never played morrowind so I wouldn't know, though I've heard good things.

At risk of wandering totally off-topic, I'd recommend it. It's its own thing, but definitely worth a look. Though I'd strongly recommend a few graphical and animation tweaks as it hasn't aged well visually, but it's an awesome place to lose yourself for a few weeks.
Posted By: Kelsier Re: Let's talk about durability - 28/10/16 10:02 AM
Oblivion had practically heat-seeking guards though. You steal one thing, those bastards will apprehend you even if they have to walk on water, swim through the sewers and blast through walls to get at you.
Posted By: vometia Re: Let's talk about durability - 28/10/16 10:37 AM
That's true. Some of the bad guys were also really annoying like that, especially some of those added by the overhauls: one time I got chased halfway across Cyrodiil by a witch I encountered in Lipsand Tarn and only managed to get rid of her when a bunch of handy guards decided they felt like doing some pwning.

I've noticed that the psychic guard thing is also a feature of the magisters, rather annoyingly...
Posted By: Kelsier Re: Let's talk about durability - 28/10/16 11:32 AM
Larian has said that they have great ambitions for their AI system, so we can expect much polishing to happen there. But yeah, the psychic guard thing needs to be looked at.

It's also quite stupid that if you pickpocket a Magister and get caught, everyone in the slums will attack you. And remember Magister Ames, the guy spying on Gareth's Rallying Point? I pickpocketed him, got caught and guess what? Gareth and all of my allies decided to attack me for that too! Who knew these guys were so staunchly moralistic
Posted By: vometia Re: Let's talk about durability - 28/10/16 11:46 AM
I think there's a bit of a bug around that area. If you unearth the chest near to where Gareth's people are hanging around you'll get attacked if you lockpick it, even though it's marked as unowned. I also had serious crashing issues there, at least prior to the latest patch (I've decided not to push my luck so I've left it alone since!)
Posted By: Kizzdon Re: Let's talk about durability - 01/04/17 10:47 AM
I do not know if durability has been decided to be put into the game or not but I do have some pretty good ideas on what you could do for either or.


Without durability:

Allow equipped and un-equipped weapons or certain items to break wooden doors and chests. With chests you have the chances of 3 different things that could go wrong, breaking the item inside the chest, breaking your weapon before the chest breaks, or both at the same time, or the best out come, breaking absolutely nothing. For example: 70% chance to break the chest with no bad outcome, 15% chance to break the item inside the chest, 10% chance to break the weapon that you used to bash the chest, 5% chance to break both at the same time. Only items that can be realistically broken from smashing in a chest should have a chance to break. Broken weapons or armor that either dropped from the chest or were equipped should be salvageable to later be reforged and used.

The STR and FIN attributes, along with your weapon type, should alter the chances of the outcome as well as how long it takes to break the object. STR+weapon type alters speed at which the object is broken. FIN+weapon type alters how precise you are breaking the object; the overall percentage of each outcome.

For example: A character with a high STR stat that's equipped with a 2-H weapon will deal more damage as opposed to a character with a low STR stat that's equipped with a 1-H-weapon. A character with a high FIN stat that's equipped with 1-H weapon will be more precise in breaking the object and will have a higher chance of the getting the best outcome as opposed to a character with a low FIN stat that's equipped with 2-H weapon. Worst case scenario; A character with a high STR, low FIN stat, equipped with a 2H-weapon.


With durability:

Create a talent that allows your weapons/armor to be able to withstand more wear and tear during your journey. You could call it ''Gear Handler'' because only the best of adventurers know how to properly treat their equipment on and off the battlefield. To add on to this idea, you could decrease the amount of durability loss that you take on all pieces of equipment, across the whole board, for all actions, that lower the ''quality'' of your equipment.





Posted By: Stabbey Re: Let's talk about durability - 01/04/17 01:32 PM
The patch before last dropped Durability for combat and pretty much everything except bashing down locked doors and chests.
Posted By: Kizzdon Re: Let's talk about durability - 05/04/17 08:29 AM
So weapons will still need to be repaired after crushing in a chest or door?
Posted By: Meppy Re: Let's talk about durability - 05/04/17 01:28 PM
Honestly I have never seen durability pulled off in a game in a way that made me enjoy it as a mechanic. Hell, even the new Zelda drives me nuts. It is just an annoying mechanic. If I find an awesome weapon, I want it to stick around.

If you want people to not be able to destroy chests with weapons, make them nearly invincible like you have some doors. OR just make the items inside the chest get destroyed. Destroying a chest with spells should ruins most of the items inside.

The only idea for a durability system I like would be the following:


The weapon has a durability where the lowest it can get to is 1 and 35 being the highest. Every -1 durability = 1% less damage from the weapon and roughly every 3-5 hits(or whatever feels right) reduces durability by 1. So the least % of damage a weapon could ever do is 65% of its original damage and you have the added benefit of it not being destroyed and unusable(which is annoying as hell).

This also would add a cool factor where you would have to repair your weapon at important fights to maximize your damage.

It also seems like a more realistic result of weapon degradation.


Posted By: Yun Re: Let's talk about durability - 05/04/17 01:56 PM
I'd say durability has no place in a singleplayer game. It is a pointless mechanic that does not enhance the game in any way, and only succeeds in being annoying.
Once can make a case for it in MMOs as a way to control the economy, but in singpleplayer games it is just awful.
Something similar can be said for level restricted items.
Posted By: hairyscotsman Re: Let's talk about durability - 05/04/17 04:07 PM
If it ain't broke, why am I fixing it?
Posted By: Blutwurstkrieger Re: Let's talk about durability - 09/04/17 11:29 AM
The durability mechanics added nothing but tedium to Divinity:OS. Simply remove it or make it optional or at most a single click of a button so i wont have to go through repetitive inventory management for a pointless mechanic. Divinity:OS floods you with items, so every bit of reduction of inventory management is an improvement in my opinion. Larian realized this apparently themselves, since they reorganized crafting into menus later on, which was quite an improvement.

All those hypothetical ways to make the system better are way too contrived to be practical and contain other downsides so far. I agree that there should be a downside to bashing objects but the current durability mechanism is not the way to go in my opinion.
Posted By: zamp Re: Let's talk about durability - 16/04/17 06:56 AM
How about penalizing bashing things open by adding a *dazed* debuff that reduces your AP and/or initiative?
Whenever you try to bash something open there'll be a slight chance for it or it gets applied every time. Bash more = higher penalty.
That debuff could also only tick down in combat so you couldn't just wait it out.
Posted By: LightningYu Re: Let's talk about durability - 16/04/17 04:46 PM
Originally Posted by Naqel
Originally Posted by aj0413

If you're going to move away from things like durability, remove food as well, and drinks too I guess. No point there either. And plenty of other RP related mechanics that don't directly related to merchants, story, and combat...


Ah, but you see, if gear maintenance was anything like food, it'd actually be a good system.
Effect duration aside, food is a great form of optional management.

Preparing and managing your meals(and potions, it is done the same way after all) is a task that takes some effort to perform, but it is entirely optional when you don't want to go through the effort.
If you don't take the time to eat before every fight(which should really be "eat in between fights"), you don't get the benefits from that, but you can win fights without it.
The system is also usable at a minimum effort: just eat whatever you have mid-combat and hope for the best.

When you choose to interact with the food system, you gain benefits.
When you're forced to maintain your gear, you do it to avoid penalties.


If you look at it as a Penality. Maintaining an Weapon is like Maintaining your Character with food. Properly done it shouldn't be less funny than work with Food in an Game. Tha't why i'm also up to they should change Durability to Maintaing. The more you use it, the more it gets schredd, not so far that it is unlplayble, or weak, but so far that you benefit if you maintain it properly. Maybe even add an more complex core, so you have different ways to maintain it and the way you maintain it gives you different benefits. So like if you use that certain whetstone it holds longer until the maintainbar reaches 0 - if you use that certain whetstone it shredds normal, however its sharper so make slightly more damange - and so on.

Except some exceptions, where the whole Game is build so it works(like BotW), most of the Games out there have an pain in the Ass durability which adds nothing. Often there fall down this word "casual" and such, if you remove durability, but Hands down: In what way mit makes it more complex and challenging? Players who have the knowledge, there isn't any challengin nor depth/complexity in it. It slowly grows as an anoyance 'cause you know how it works. The only group who will find it "challenging" are the newcomers, and if you ask me, that is NOTHING which is fun to learn or where you feel rewarded afterwards, that you did it. Its not like an amazing Bossfight where you have to think, use tactics or (in case of Action RPG like Dark Souls) learn move pattern/polish your reflexes. That simply something which gets in your nerves after awhile - and it isn't even that realistic to begin with(if some people argue about Realism/Immersion). Like an Weapon would break SO FAST? Maintaning is in this Case more realistic and more immersive, and also beats the issues. In one Hand it's not forced down to the throat about people who don't care, in the other Hand (if properly done) it also can add a bit depth.

About this Streamlined/Mainstream argument:
The Question is, what Larian aims for. Which targed Audience they want to maintain. It might be only my Opinion, but from the Feeling which i've gotten from the first Game, they don't aim particiular only for the diehard dungeon and dragons Roleplay-Nerds, but want to deliever an Proper Pen & Paper similiar Feel with freedem and easy accessibility. If that wouldn't be they case, they wouldn't even begun this topic here to ask if they should get rid of it or if some people have suggestions for improvements/fixing.

Also this whole "Argument" of "Durability doesn't fit an Single-Player RPG":
Firstly: Now either most people are to young or don't have that much knowledge, but Durability isn't something which is introduced recently with MMORPG - but was an big Part of RPG way before this whole Multiplayerconcept was Popular. Thought i can't tell if in the origins of cRPGs - the Pen and Paper Games, durability was an thing.
Secondly: Even if that would be the Case, Divinity isn't exactly an Single-Player RPG. Often if some People here in this Forum(or Steam Forum) read about things like class-balancing and such, and dislike it because they mindlessly want stomp everything and blablabla and such, they tend to forget the uniqueness about Divinity Original Sin - and even more what Larian want to achieve with this Series. To draw this Pen & Paper feeling back to Videogames, and this with an 4-player-multiplayer-co-op. They seem really to focus on this Part, due their ideas like everyone have its own origin-stories which might cross with other quests of other storys, so you have to decide to do your own thing or stick together with people, which you play with. They even offer an Game-Master and Arena Mode. Divinity Original Sin 2- even if the SP crowed don't want to hear it, is clearly focused on this part. Obviously Larian tries also to please the SP Crowed due the origins of this Series, however they won't tradeoff SP for MP - and they shouldn't. For pure SP there are alot of ton other Games like Pillars of Eternity, Tyranny etc...
Posted By: Kalrakh Re: Let's talk about durability - 16/04/17 05:48 PM
Originally Posted by zamp
How about penalizing bashing things open by adding a *dazed* debuff that reduces your AP and/or initiative?
Whenever you try to bash something open there'll be a slight chance for it or it gets applied every time. Bash more = higher penalty.
That debuff could also only tick down in combat so you couldn't just wait it out.


You won't bash during a combat, so you don't care for AP at all.

Bashing stuff open is already painful and annoying. Giving a daze effect you could aswell just make everything unbashable.
Posted By: zamp Re: Let's talk about durability - 17/04/17 01:28 AM
Originally Posted by Kalrakh
You won't bash during a combat, so you don't care for AP at all.


That's why I said the daze only ticks down during combat. If you smash something open you'll get dazed debuff until the next time you enter combat. For the first few turns a dazed character would be less useful
Posted By: Chratis Re: Let's talk about durability - 19/04/17 02:50 PM
If we are basing solely on the premise on whether or not we should keep the durability system as a consequence or punishment for bashing doors and chest open then I don't believe we need it.

Currently many people will avoid this by either using worse weapons, magic, or save scumming and most implementations will have people taking the chest to a remote location out of sight and just going full hadoken on it.

So what can we do to make opening doors and chest in unconventional ways(ie without a key or lock pick) more interesting and less time consuming?

First lets figure out the states in which a door and chest can function as:

1)Most doors and chests will be found in a locked state. It's function is to keep unwanted or perhaps a better way to phrase it would be an unworthy person to open it unless a condition is met.

2)The second state is opened. This is the desired state and after the initial state change it loses almost all value.

So I believe to reduce time on dealing with a chest or door, there should only be two states it exist and that is open or locked and that trying to spend years breaking a chest or door to be an unnecessary state. With that in mind lets figure out on how to make it more interesting.

In opening a door or chest we go through a process of elimination on how we should open it. First we would try to just open it with the assumption it might be open. Second we would look for a key. Third we would try to lockpick it. Fourth we would look for some weak point that we could pry open. Fifth we would try to break the the lock. Finally we would go barbaric and either try to bash the chest open or blow it open with magic.

To make door opening and chest opening interesting I suggest we have multiple different answers:

1) If you are a warrior you would need a certain amount of strength and a proper weapon to break open a chest or door.

2)If you are a rogue or archer you would try to spot a weak or vulnerable point in a chest or door and try to pry it open with some finesse.

3) If you are a mage you could have several different ways to open a chest or door. A user of pyrokinetic could force open a door as long as they had the right amount of skill and know the right spell but would burn all contents in a chest. A user of hydro spells could freeze the lock on a chest or door and have a companion break the lock. An aerothurge would require immense investment into that stat to break open a chest or door. A geomancer could easily throw a boulder through a door, and use poison to corrode a lock on a chest and the list goes on.

So with this solution we will prevent the need to save scum or move chest around to break them open, save time from smacking or burning chest and doors, and make it more interesting to play/build around with a simple check.
Posted By: Chratis Re: Let's talk about durability - 19/04/17 02:51 PM
With the previous post I hopefully gave them some insight if not a solution to the problems with opening doors and chests.

This post will be on how to make durability less of a tedious task and something that is fun and rewarding.

Durability before the previous change was a system where anytime you used your weapon or your armor took damage it would lose a charge in the durability stat that had a set number of times it could endure before breaking.

What people dislike about this is that repairing is a tedious task and does not add anything fun to the game with several examples on how much it sucked in other games.

So lets look at the reasons why we find it tedious and not fun:

1) Gear is put into three states with only two of them that matters. We have fully repaired, damaged, and broken. For all intents and purposes fully repaired and damaged are the same thing and having a weapon broken in combat will just lead to players reloading a save, repairing the item, and going back to combat effectively wasting time.

2) It mentally feels bad because its not something that increases damage but decreases damage. Nobody enjoys seeing their numbers go from 15 to 1.

So how do we make it less tedious and more fun?

1) We change Durability to be called Condition.

2) Condition is always set at a number below the maximum condition excluding special reasons.

3) You can only increase condition by using a repair hammer or shopkeeper to increase the value of Condition which will in turn increase the damage it does.

4) Condition will never go down in value but only up to its maximum value. So fighting(or anything for that matter) will not decrease condition.

5) Shop owners can only repair the condition of an item to a certain threshold decided by the developers and not go any higher to keep repair hammers relevant and prevent overpowering levels extremely through gear.

By making it so Condition never goes down we remove/reduce the amount of time people go back to town to make sure their combat effective doesn't decrease. We give players a good reason to go back to town to increase their weapon damage, but it is never necessary to do so giving the players choice. Condition makes it so that weapons and armor are good, better, or peak performance so it feels good increasing Condition because you have more effectiveness.
Posted By: lx07 Re: Let's talk about durability - 09/05/17 12:43 PM
Originally Posted by Chratis
4) Condition will never go down in value but only up to its maximum value. So fighting(or anything for that matter) will not decrease condition.
This sounds like you want durability scrapped and some crafting facility to improve items.

Originally Posted by Chratis
3) You can only increase condition by using a repair hammer or shopkeeper to increase the value of Condition which will in turn increase the damage it does.
Not sure repair hammer should be the only way. In previous Divinity games you could combine gear with various things - sharpening weapons to increase damage, combining leather armour with fire or essences to increase resistances, adding charms end enhancements etc.

If so I agree (but then I like crafting). Improving things feels better than stopping them breaking.

I'm playing DOS EE at the moment and have to repair everything after each fight is pretty dull.
Posted By: Jemolk Re: Let's talk about durability - 10/05/17 03:11 AM
Originally Posted by lx07
Improving things feels better than stopping them breaking.

I'm playing DOS EE at the moment and have to repair everything after each fight is pretty dull.

Honestly, in those cases I just tend to prefer it to take longer to degrade fully. I find better immersion in a world simply by having the universal law of nothing being indestructible remain true. This includes crates, it includes barrels and treasure chests, and it includes weapons and, yes, even armor. I don't really have a problem, per se, with the way durability is handled at the moment, but I didn't really have a problem with it before, either.

I tend to think that a good durability system is one that adds meaningful choices. In Morrowind, for instance, one of the potential considerations when choosing your armor and weapon was how durable it was. Glass armor and weapons are incredibly strong and light, but break very very fast, whereas Ebony is insanely heavy, but pretty strong and extremely durable. Which one do you use? Depends on how you build your character, as does how you do combat and how you make sure it's maintained. Going with light armor, you're probably trying to be quick and agile. Well, in combat be quick and agile, or your very protective Glass armor won't last long at all. Going with heavy armor, you've definitely got high strength, otherwise you wouldn't even be able to walk around in the armor. You just need a bit of extra weight in repair hammers, because you're probably going to be wading into melee and your armor will take a beating, as is its purpose. It reinforces choices made elsewhere for characterization. Does this not make sense?
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