Larian Studios
Posted By: Neonivek I feel kind of ripped off (Lament Thread) - 04/11/16 02:29 PM
I'll just put my thoughts here instead of making a huge thread. Feel free to, as most places do, to defend the game as if I attacked you personally... it would be weird if you did otherwise. I need to say it and the game has been out long enough that people shouldn't feel too offended that someone dare tarnish the game even slightly.

I honestly have no idea if I would have still kickstarted the game knowing what I know now. I liked the first game quite a bit, but one thing I know I'd do differently is advertising the game to others. I wouldn't recommend this game to anyone who wasn't a fan of the first game, this game does NOT break out as a obvious huge improvement.

Namely there are three major features highly advertised that aren't anything like they were presented as. They are as follows

1) The Origin System:
-Advertised: You create a character crafting not only their skills and expertise but also their past and their role in this world. Are you a noble of a great house, a foothold in the governance of this specific world? Perhaps you will meet your old friends and allies along the way engrossing your own personal character in this world. A feature never before seen at this scale putting even the likes of Dragon Age Origin to shame!
-Actuality: You can either play a complete blank slate which every single other game does as it is. Or you can play 4+ characters that Larian made themselves. In other words this series has went from what nearly every RPG in existence does and "Lets you make your own character" and instead settles for letting you play their character with less personality then a JRPG character overall.
-Double Bonus: The "Generic character Aspirations" are just bits and pieces of the Larian Characters.

2) Parallel Questing
-Advertised: No longer are you forced to hold hands as you adventure this world doing your own quests and achieving your own goals. You are often even forced to settle your differences through blade instead of word!
-Actuality: You are still forced to hold hands and the number of instances where you can disagree on a quest are very slim even when the situation calls for it.

3) Skill Crafting
-Advertised: Combine skills together to form new ones with many stunning possibilities. Perhaps combining a Summon Spider with a Oil spell will create a Oil spider, add fire and you get a flaming Spider
-Actuality (In theory at least): You can combine two skills to create a new skill... all which are preset with no permutations.
---This could be entirely wrong... in fact I hope it is...

---

So all in all what are the features in this game that I honest to goodness believe are better than the first that everyone should appreciate?

There is far better skill synergy between trees (that I hope continues to work), the skill trees are far better and well thought out, CC is kind of sort of not overpowered (it has issues, but that can be ironed out)... and I will always appreciate the lack of Rock Scissor paper.

It isn't my full list I am sure I forgot some. Though not all features you appreciate I necessarily do. I find some of the skill bonuses to be far too gamey.
Posted By: kcnik Re: I feel kind of ripped off (Lament Thread) - 04/11/16 03:16 PM
We are talking about an ALPHA Version, dont take anything thats in the game right now as "this is final".

1) Where did you get THAT from.
This is from the Steam page:
Choose your origin story. Choose one of the unique origin stories that will define your character's background and your personal quests. For the first time in a Divinity game, play as a Human, Lizard, Elf, Dwarf, or Undead, each with unique racial skills. Watch the world and its inhabitants react to who you are and what you've done, unlocking new dialog options and quest lines. Or create your own story by building your character from the ground up.

And thats a pretty good description of what you can expect. On the kickstarter page its about the same, though im not if it was changed after the kickstarter campaign.

2) Well yeah, in the current alpha version you cant really play the competitive questing, because all the characters have the same goal: leave this island.

3) I hope you know that not even the standard crafting is done yet. Not even close to be done.

Yeah - we're months, literally months away from release. Maybe this would be more relevant if all of these still applied in spring 2017.
Posted By: Naqel Re: I feel kind of ripped off (Lament Thread) - 04/11/16 05:28 PM
While it is still too early to really tell, I also don't quite like how the Origin situation is handled.

-Origin characters should have just been pre-made ones for people who never played an RPG before, not the main focus of the game. You can't really have a robust character customization, and characters with rather specific backgrounds both at once.

-There should be some balance in Aspirations versus an Origin, like Origin characters getting only one Aspiration, or even none at all and the choice in that regard should matter beyond the odd conversation. Things like aspiration talents, quests, etc. should exist.

-There should be, regardless of Origin character existence, other characters you can pick up along your journey of which there is none so far.
There's a rule of thumb I feel is relevant here. You either do many customizable blank slate characters OR you do ONE specific origin character. If you try for a middle road here, balancing that out is going to be hell
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Or create your own story by building your character from the ground up.

And thats a pretty good description of what you can expect. On the kickstarter page its about the same, though im not if it was changed after the kickstarter campaign.


A few things about that. Originally the plan was... Exactly what it says without stretching definitions far FAR outside where someone would reasonably define it. They just decided against it.

As for "What gave you that idea?"... Just read what you wrote.

It says "Origin stories", not "Characters" which is a huge difference between them.

One suggests applying a story to your character or even creating a custom story.

What they went with is playing their characters...

Kind of a huge gulf of difference...

Which normally the defense would be "Fine, don't use that feature" but it has got its grubby fingers all over the place. You CAN'T ignore it because the character YOU MAKE is just an amalgamation of them.

Heck, there is nothing wrong with playing a preset character. My favorite RPG of all time has a set main character and a linear story. The difference is it didn't go "Craft your own character!" because you can give him any name you want.

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2) Well yeah, in the current alpha version you cant really play the competitive questing, because all the characters have the same goal: leave this island


Yes because in the first few hours of gameplay that is meant to highlight the gameplay for the rest of the game... The first 35% of the game minimum that has been more carefully crafted then any other part of the game.

Almost completely ignores that feature for roleplay sake.

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3) I hope you know that not even the standard crafting is done yet. Not even close to be done


There is just so little evidence that it will even be as intended as the goal. Especially since we already see the prototypes.

So I'd bank on it not coming to fruition.
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There's a rule of thumb I feel is relevant here. You either do many customizable blank slate characters OR you do ONE specific origin character. If you try for a middle road here, balancing that out is going to be hell


There are ways to do it. Though you have to have vision and a clear idea going into it. (One of the fallouts did it... but it did it by having freedom of character trump origin)

Though the funny thing is that neither of those is what the game has.
Posted By: Linio Re: I feel kind of ripped off (Lament Thread) - 04/11/16 06:16 PM
1) The origin system is a huge letdown.
The fact that there actually are preset character is pointing to a direction that's just plain bad. I too thought the "tag" system would actually be the only system, and that you'd be able to pick several tags and go from there, but nope.

3) I'm pretty sure in the end the system won't be that big. The thing is, since they're trying to redo the whole combat shenanigan, a lot of energy will be placed there.

That's actually what scares me a little, how a lot of things are going back to square one.
Combat was good the way it was, sure, there was too much CC, but this could have been handled, so we're going back to creating a whole new system.
Skills was not that bad (in the first opus even), in EE there was a first wiping of skills, and now there's even a whole new system imagined with the skill trees and all, for what purpose? Who knows?
Split screen coop? Nope, let's just remove that altogether.
Graphics? Let's do something more serious.
And the list goes on and on.

I was advertised a D:OS 2 who would be the continuation of the first opus with new stuff, and I must say I'm pretty disappointed where this is going as of now
Sorry to hear that you're disappointed with the Origin Characters. So far, I've enjoyed their stories and I don't regret my monetary investment at all. However, I do agree that they could probably take the tag system a little further to make custom characters feel more alive.

With regard to the competitive questing, these features aren't even in the game yet (as far a single player goes). In the future we will not be able to select our companion's choices for them. They will act based on their personality, which will likely lead to conflict within certain party make-ups. There is an interview with Sven floating around out there that discusses this issue in more detail. It also discusses the general direction of Early Access and what other features we will be able to play test. I recommend checking it out.

And with regard to skill crafting, it hasn't been implemented into the early access version yet. Nor has the majority of all crafting for that matter. So we don't yet know what this will look like.
Wow, this thread is a lot more civil then I thought it would end up being.

I am happy!
Posted By: Naqel Re: I feel kind of ripped off (Lament Thread) - 05/11/16 02:49 PM
Originally Posted by Neonivek
Wow, this thread is a lot more civil then I thought it would end up being.


It's not like your concerns are unfounded, and some of them are shared by the broader community to some extent.

It also helps that the OP wasn't "larian sux dix lmao!!!1".
Posted By: Linio Re: I feel kind of ripped off (Lament Thread) - 05/11/16 03:34 PM
Originally Posted by Naqel
Originally Posted by Neonivek
Wow, this thread is a lot more civil then I thought it would end up being.


It's not like your concerns are unfounded, and some of them are shared by the broader community to some extent.


My thoughts exactly.
I was like "well the fact that it didn't went into a flamewar may not actually be such a good thing for the game because it seems to indicate that there are indeed some shared concerns...

Hopefully, since Larian reads all, it will be picked up.
On my end, I'm totally worried by this coop thing. My friend will be pissed...
Originally Posted by Neonivek
Wow, this thread is a lot more civil then I thought it would end up being.

I am happy!


Probably because I haven't been participating in the thread. wink

I do think though, that if you're going to say "Advertised: ", you should follow it up with an ACTUAL quote. Like if I watched a car ad say "Gets 6.2 L/100 km", I could not then say "Advertised: Never stop for gas again!" and complain that I was being ripped off when the car ran out of gas.

Additionally, Kickstarters are almost always for games which are by definition unfinished. While the ideas are given in broad strokes, the finer details are not filled in yet. And the details are where the complications with actually implementing the ideas set in. (In fewer words, "SH-T HAPPENS".)

***

1) Here is the quote on the kickstarter page:

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At the start of the game, you pick a single character and determine your starting stats, race, and origin story.


While in isolation, that does indeed seem to indicate that race is separate from chosen origin story, looking at even the Island Heir(ess) example from the Kickstarter demo, it seems clear that origin and race would need to be tied together in most cases. The island discriminates against Dwarves and is ruled by Humans. A Human Lord with the player as a Dwarf Heir wouldn't work, nor would a Dwarf Heir player with Dwarf Lord parents work in the context of the island culture.

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Perhaps you will meet your old friends and allies along the way engrossing your own personal character in this world.


Just a reminder that the first act takes place in a concentration camp located on Horrible Torture Amusement Park Island, so we can't use Act 1 to declare that the "meeting old friends and allies" part is false.


Originally Posted by Neonivek
Or you can play 4+ characters that Larian made themselves.


Well how exactly do you think Origin stories are supposed to work in a computer game? Computer games cannot work on the same rules as Pen and Paper RPG's with a Human Game Master controlling everything. Every single thing in a computer game, every NPC, every line of dialogue, everything must be put in by hand by someone from Larian. Then, it must be sealed up into a box and sent out into the wild for the public to use. It is expected to work without Larian being able to step in and make changes.

I suppose it might be possible to have lots of little tiny setpieces which are randomly chosen, but that would not make for a coherent origin, nor would it seem carefully crafted.


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and instead settles for letting you play their character with less personality then a JRPG character overall.


This is a fair enough point. One way they could give more personality to characters might be to replace the generic "*Say that...*" dialogue with individual lines for each origin plus a generic line, but that depends on time, budget, workload, and even then interpretations of the exact same character can vary from player to player.


2) I agree that the parallel questing thing is inherently going to be problematic largely because of engine and optimization limitations. Because only one map at a time can be loaded in memory and there are only certain ways to progress from one map to the next, and you need to all go at the same time, that requires cooperation at certain points. That severely undercuts the point of competitive questing in my opinion.

Of course, I am not at all a fan of competitive questing, as I only really play single-player, and competitive questing is - to single-players - a useless waste of time and resources.

No, I do not at all believe Swen's claim that it makes the single-player better. I believe that he talked along similar lines for D:OS 1, in which allowing the party to freely roam around and split up made it better by forcing them to not take shortcuts. That was a lie, because they still took the exact same shortcuts as single-player games, what with instant flags and teleporting NPC's.

Those same immersion-breaking shortcuts are still in D:OS 2. Just look what happens if you have one person up near the Seeker's camp at the same time as a second person tells Garath that the way is clear the boats. The Seekers shuffle around the camp a little bit then instantly teleport to their camp. Just as instantly a bunch of traps and a Magister instantly appear in that area as well, and the Magister is surprised when you talk to him, even if you were literally standing on the stone pillar where he appears when he appeared. Along the same lines, as a prisoner you can be out of sight of the guards for ages doing all kinds of sneaky things, but the instant you leave the fort, you are flagged as an escapee to be killed on sight if you return, even if you were only away for 20 seconds.


3) First, basic crafting is not in the game yet - this is still Patch Zero, much less skill-crafting. It's a bit soon to declare skill crafting as a failure (which does not mean that it will not eventually end up being a failure, just that it is too soon to write it off).

Secondly it should hopefully have been obvious to most people that Larian probably would not allow you to use Combined Skillbooks (created through combining Normal Skillbooks) in crafting to make a second crafted skillbook. That would quickly get out of control as people mashed crafted skills together to make incredibly absurd skills ad infinitum.

So while "Oil + Summon Spider = Summon Oil Spider" sounds like a potentially valid combination, I don't see how adding fire would do anything except turn your oil spider into a "Dead, Flaming Spider".
I'm also curious what the OP really imagines for "true origin" stories. Choosing to be a noble of a great house sounds a lot like Red Prince. But I suppose the OP means you could be any noble, or a beggar, or whatever. Maybe you could lay several small choices of several different events in your past which would influence character responses throughout the game? So, you could be a corrupt merchant who allied with bandits and helped them take over a town, or a honest merchant who sided with the town to fight bandits, or a honest soldier who fought the bandits, or any combination of those aspects, etc.

And, as Stabbey said, these might set up certain set pieces or friends or enemies or events showing up in a modular way. But that all likely would be a massive amount of work for a relatively incoherent experience. Specific character origins that you can shape how you want is both less work, and much more likely to produce interesting stories. The way I see it, the origin stories concept was largely in relation to D:OS1, where you had one possible background as a source hunter. But in D:OS2, you could have 6 or so different origins. So, yes maybe "origin stories" in this case basically means "preset characters," but it's hard to imagine another possibility that would be any good.
Even if the stories are quite preset, you still can decide how far you follow them through, like the torturing part.
Posted By: Linio Re: I feel kind of ripped off (Lament Thread) - 05/11/16 09:42 PM
I really don't get the last points.
The origins could be only set by the tags.
Remove the answer tied to a specific origin story and instead tie them to a few more tags...
Originally Posted by Linio
I really don't get the last points.
The origins could be only set by the tags.
Remove the answer tied to a specific origin story and instead tie them to a few more tags...


OK. I create a female Dwarf and pick the tag "Red Prince" to produce a female dwarf who somehow is an heir to the lizard kingdom.
Originally Posted by Stabbey
OK. I create a female Dwarf and pick the tag "Red Prince" to produce a female dwarf who somehow is an heir to the lizard kingdom.


I'm hoping that either Larian (or some ambitious modders after release) expand the tag system into a variety of subsets which can all individually be used to make a character, so instead of a tag for "Red Prince" you could have a tag that links together all the "arrogant" comments, or all the "Royal" proclamations. I know this would lead to missing out on certain dialogue options that did reference a racial quality or a specific trait unique to someone like the Red Prince, but with a big enough cross-reference collection if would be cool to select a collection of traits to make your character your own, even if it's just an advanced option.
Posted By: Naqel Re: I feel kind of ripped off (Lament Thread) - 06/11/16 06:50 AM
Originally Posted by Stabbey
OK. I create a female Dwarf and pick the tag "Red Prince" to produce a female dwarf who somehow is an heir to the lizard kingdom.


Strawmen aren't very good opponents in discussion, and it makes you look silly to fight them.

The point is: Red Prince's story wouldn't be all that different if instead of a unique red lizard, he was a lizard with tags Prince, Asshole, Exotic Appearance.

You replace the references of his specific skin color with vague mentions of an unusual scar/birthmark/mole/etc., and his story can be easily adjusted to contextually fit any race.
Posted By: Linio Re: I feel kind of ripped off (Lament Thread) - 06/11/16 09:16 AM
Originally Posted by Naqel

Strawmen aren't very good opponents in discussion, and it makes you look silly to fight them.


That was totally uncalled for.
My point was valid, and there was no need to write three pages about it just for the hell of it.
Instead of having origin stories tied to a specific character you could have only tags.
And about the comment of Stabbey, it's simple to give a trolling counter example.
"Red Prince" is not a tag, it's an origin story.
A tag would be "prince" for example, or "heir of the royal family", hence if you'd pick a "female dwarf", she could be the heiress of the dwarf empire, and you could imagine several scenarios, like some races/sex not being able to have certain tags, certain tags being mutually exclusive, etc...
You could think of an intelligent system just like you have in paper RPG, you wouldn't need origin stories for that.
And that's pretty much what you got from my post so... Point was made.

Originally Posted by Stabbey

Probably because I haven't been participating in the thread. wink


I'm starting to understand this smile

Anyway, I hope I made my point, and I've pretty much nothing else to add, I hope the system will see some changes, but I'm pretty sure this is a moo point since the origin stories are there, and I don't see why they'd remove them, plus, it's clear it's the path they chose, so it's pretty much a lost battle.
Originally Posted by Linio

A tag would be "prince" for example, or "heir of the royal family", hence if you'd pick a "female dwarf", she could be the heiress of the dwarf empire, and you could imagine several scenarios, like some races/sex not being able to have certain tags, certain tags being mutually exclusive, etc...


This would take a LOT of writing to pull off, which would cause further delays, you'd be essentially writing several different lines of dialogue for one option alone, this is the reason that even Bioware use archetypes and set combinations in Dragon Age Origins.

We all want to be able to use a hundred different tags to craft a perfect character, but it's not possible yet, not until a computer can generate dialogue specific to a certain combination, otherwise you could be looking at millions of lines of dialogue and 95% of it never used.
Well, I'm also slightly disappointed with the tag system so far. (as well as the skills, especially the available diversion, as there are for example no summonings, no direct curse, etc, right now)

I hoped it would be more akin to the traits in the dark eye ruleset. Similar stuff was done in Arcanum. For example a "greedy" perk that makes you able to haggle with persons you otherwise couldn't. But therefor you can't accept quests that offer no reward. Then reflect that in the fitting conversations with a couple of lines.
Maybe an additional quest option here n there.

Nothing that would require the entire amount of conversations to be rewritten.
Originally Posted by Naqel

Strawmen aren't very good opponents in discussion, and it makes you look silly to fight them.


It's not a strawman. I am taking the suggestion he made and showing an instant problem with it, using the VERY SAFE ASSUMPTION that Larian will not delete the origins.


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The point is: Red Prince's story wouldn't be all that different if instead of a unique red lizard, he was a lizard with tags Prince, Asshole, Exotic Appearance.


All we have seen of the Red Prince origin is him on Concentration Camp Hellhole Island. It is very wrong to assume that the only effects of his origin can be covered in those generic tags.


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You replace the references of his specific skin color with vague mentions of an unusual scar/birthmark/mole/etc., and his story can be easily adjusted to contextually fit any race.


I highly doubt that.


Originally Posted by Linio


That was totally uncalled for.
My point was valid, and there was no need to write three pages about it just for the hell of it.
Instead of having origin stories tied to a specific character you could have only tags.


You are of course free to make that suggestion to Larian to delete all the origin stories and instead replace them with a bunch of small scenes tied to very specific tags to produce a mix-and-match.

However, I don't believe that "delete the origin stories" will get a warm reception at Larian.


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And about the comment of Stabbey, it's simple to give a trolling counter example.
"Red Prince" is not a tag, it's an origin story.
A tag would be "prince" for example, or "heir of the royal family", hence if you'd pick a "female dwarf", she could be the heiress of the dwarf empire, and you could imagine several scenarios, like some races/sex not being able to have certain tags, certain tags being mutually exclusive, etc...
You could think of an intelligent system just like you have in paper RPG, you wouldn't need origin stories for that.
And that's pretty much what you got from my post so... Point was made.


I'll repeat myself:

All we have seen of the Red Prince origin is him on Concentration Camp Hellhole Island. It is very wrong to assume that the only effects of his origin can be covered in those tags.

If there are scenes later on with someone who personally knows the Red Prince, such as a scheming nest-sister, those will not work with any combination of generic tags. Each origin story has a late-game origin quest tied specifically to the origin. That won't work with a mix-and-match pick-your-tags origin.

Your suggestion is basically to substitute in a bunch of tiny minor generic pieces in place of specific details. Trying to weave in 2-3 random setpiece generators (like you can find wandering the wastes in Fallout) might be possible, but the limitations of fitting in all race and gender combinations would make them seem bland and impersonal, like a novel in which the protagonist only describes his relations like "Parent One poured a bowl of cereal for Younger Sibling."

Also, it probably wouldn't be all that coherent. What if I pick the Merchant,and Bandit tags and encounter the "[Bandit's] Old Gang robbing [Merchant's] Old Partner" setpiece? If you break each origin into several different tags, that allows for those tags to be mixed and matched with potentially opposed tags from other origins. Untangling all the complications would be a massive headache for the writers, coders, quest designers

If these setpiece generators become tags, then they would have to be limited in multiplayer. A tag could only be picked by one player. You couldn't have two Merchant players reach the same trigger for a setpiece.


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Anyway, I hope I made my point, and I've pretty much nothing else to add, I hope the system will see some changes, but I'm pretty sure this is a moo point since the origin stories are there, and I don't see why they'd remove them, plus, it's clear it's the path they chose, so it's pretty much a lost battle.


I can't imagine Larian removing the origins either, especially not based on suggestions from people who haven't seen how they work off of Concentration Camp Island.

Back in the Kickstarter days they showed the Island Heiress origin, which was off the island and had specific interactions between the heiress and existing NPC's. That was just an example, but it should be paid attention to when thinking about how the origins are likely to work once off of the prison island.
Posted By: Naqel Re: I feel kind of ripped off (Lament Thread) - 06/11/16 02:39 PM
Originally Posted by Stabbey
If these setpiece generators become tags, then they would have to be limited in multiplayer. A tag could only be picked by one player. You couldn't have two Merchant players reach the same trigger for a setpiece.


There's nothing stopping the game from suspending your disbelief and allowing all 4 individual rogues to be THE rogue for the purpose of a quest.
For example: You get to remove all 4 collars as "The One" if you use the "open 4 clients and give all characters to yourself" way of having a custom party.
Custom characters of each race will also have their own unique Origin stuff, and you can have a party of 4 humans in multiplayer.

Aside from the negligible minutiae of how things are written, there is literally no practical reason to treat origin characters any better than the custom made ones.
The effort that went into the origin stories could have been better used making the tags feel more relevant and/or having more of them.

I'd gladly have a 'merchant' aspiration instead of Ifan as a thing at all.
Posted By: Linio Re: I feel kind of ripped off (Lament Thread) - 06/11/16 09:17 PM
Originally Posted by Naqel
Aside from the negligible minutiae of how things are written, there is literally no practical reason to treat origin characters any better than the custom made ones.
The effort that went into the origin stories could have been better used making the tags feel more relevant and/or having more of them.

I'd gladly have a 'merchant' aspiration instead of Ifan as a thing at all.


Totally this.
And honestly Stabbey, ask around, how many people want to have a preset character instead of a custom made one? Larian is bragging about their ability to create pen&paper like rpg games, an effort could have been made for the tag system. This is just a question of how much energy you want to put into this, there's no real impossibility here...
Originally Posted by Linio
Originally Posted by Naqel
Aside from the negligible minutiae of how things are written, there is literally no practical reason to treat origin characters any better than the custom made ones.
The effort that went into the origin stories could have been better used making the tags feel more relevant and/or having more of them.

I'd gladly have a 'merchant' aspiration instead of Ifan as a thing at all.


Totally this.
And honestly Stabbey, ask around, how many people want to have a preset character instead of a custom made one? Larian is bragging about their ability to create pen&paper like rpg games, an effort could have been made for the tag system. This is just a question of how much energy you want to put into this, there's no real impossibility here...


You're right, it's a matter of energy. Six fully-fleshed out origins which dramatically alter many NPC reactions is already extremely ambitious. There's nothing impossible about adding a dozen tags to create interesting custom characters, but it's a ton of work, more than making a single origin to make it meaningful. Maybe they oversold the idea of creating your own background through tags (though I can't recall how big of a deal they made of that), but perhaps they'll be adding more tags.

If I were to make a wild guess, making custom characters meaningfully customizable in their background would probably be about the same work as two to three origins. I would say an origin is probably worth 3-6 tags in terms of uniqueness, depth, and breadth of effect, so you'd probably need at least 10 tags you could choose from to make your character feel unique, some of them not part of any given origin, since origins also have tags. I'm not sure how many tags are in the game already or exactly how large of an effect they have besides dialog options, but you'd definitely need quite a few more to to really do custom characters justice.

Which, to be clear, would be ideal. I'd like deeply customizable character backgrounds as much as anyone. And maybe that's Larian's plan, but I wouldn't necessarily count on it. Most people will find six interesting origins with lots of choice in their development to be quite generous as is.

One easy way to make customizable characters special would be to let them choose from some special talents at the start of the game that have large stat effects, mostly with certain drawbacks. Say, something like the "Merchant" background would grant you 3 Bartering and 1 charisma but reduced constitution, or that sort of thing, perhaps even granting some unique effect like merchants have more things to sell. Ideally you'd gain some special dialogs with other merchants, where it'd also be a tag, but that's moving into the less easy way to make customization. Mere gameplay effects nothing equivalent to an origin's story relevance, but it'd offer some sort of flavor to custom characters.

Originally Posted by Wellzy4eva
Originally Posted by Linio

A tag would be "prince" for example, or "heir of the royal family", hence if you'd pick a "female dwarf", she could be the heiress of the dwarf empire, and you could imagine several scenarios, like some races/sex not being able to have certain tags, certain tags being mutually exclusive, etc...


This would take a LOT of writing to pull off, which would cause further delays, you'd be essentially writing several different lines of dialogue for one option alone, this is the reason that even Bioware use archetypes and set combinations in Dragon Age Origins.

We all want to be able to use a hundred different tags to craft a perfect character, but it's not possible yet, not until a computer can generate dialogue specific to a certain combination, otherwise you could be looking at millions of lines of dialogue and 95% of it never used.


Ok so it is unrealistic to actually do the origin system by actually creating the origin system.

Why say you are doing it and then not... But say your doing it anyway. That this is clearly what was always intended.

If they never advertised the Origin system "I" certainly wouldn't have been disapointed.

Better yet you know what game DOES do the exact same thing with tags? Tyranny... You know what they don't do? Call it an Origin System :P

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And I said all that without just tearing down your example... Which is easy because it is flimsy "all or nothing" reasoning.

As if applying a "Likes applesauce" tag means that every single NPC needs a "Likes Applesauce" conversation path.

But... Maybe I am being unfair, does Divinity Original Sin 2 CURRENTLY apply at least half the tags to say 90% of the conversations? Well... No...

Does the game have conversations with no tag interactions? Yes...

The majority of conversations use 1-2 tags.

So... If hypothetically there were 100 tags. What would be the easiest way to handle it? Order them.

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The thing is... The current "Origin System" is FLAT OUT a cut corner / Cop out.

They knew they had to do NPC partners. So what is the easiest way to account for the PCs? Just make the NPC partners the PC characters.

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"Advertised: Never stop for gas again!" and complain that I was being ripped off when the car ran out of gas.

Additionally, Kickstarters are almost always for games which are by definition unfinished


Don't give me that fluff! The game STILL advertises itself by what has been said in the Kickstarter with none of the words being changed.

Larian used a clear language to imply a feature that it has fulfilled in the most lackluster way possible to the extent that its continued insistence that it is fulfilled is rather dishonest all things considered.

"Yep we have an origin system all finished!"

"So, we get to play an origin?"

"Yes! You get to play a character"

"So... We get to play a character?"

"No... An Origin!"

"So... We can play a mage from the royal academy and meet up with our buddies?"

"If we have a character with that backstory"

"But wait, are we getting an Origin or are we playing a complete character?"

"A complete character"

"Then why are you calling it an Origin System, that is completely confusing and doesn't represent it at all?"

"Because we originally intended on you giving your characters origins allowing them not to just be faceless people who popped out of nowhere... But we decided that was too hard"

"Then why not change it?"

"Because money..."

"Ohh"

Or rather: Just because something is technically true, it doesn't make it honest for lack of a better word. Which is advertising 101.

So if it says "You can drive over 1000 blocks!" and it turns out they are all lego blocks...

I actually wouldn't be as peeved if they would just drop the pretense and go "No it wasn't feasible we don't have an origin system anymore".
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