Larian Studios
Posted By: Dark_Ansem Old Saving Throw Mechanism - 18/11/16 07:48 PM
So, it is safe to say that bodybuilding and willpower are gone? That's too bad. that means there is absolutely no barrier once armor is gone.

Which I suppose is another snag with the armor system. Last time I checked it wasn't super popular.
Posted By: hairyscotsman Re: Old Saving Throw Mechanism - 19/11/16 03:26 AM
Or there's a very active minority who don't like it
Posted By: Naqel Re: Old Saving Throw Mechanism - 19/11/16 04:56 AM
Originally Posted by hairyscotsman
Or there's a very active minority who don't like it


I'm pretty certain the system was judged to be horribly flawed by pretty much everyone.
Posted By: TraceChaos Re: Old Saving Throw Mechanism - 19/11/16 05:49 AM
Originally Posted by Naqel
Originally Posted by hairyscotsman
Or there's a very active minority who don't like it


I'm pretty certain the system was judged to be horribly flawed by pretty much everyone.


Well, no, I think that the armor system's great. It prevents RNG from being god, and instead means durability and tactics are important as heck.
Posted By: Raze Re: Old Saving Throw Mechanism - 19/11/16 06:57 AM

I think 'horribly flawed' is a bit of an exaggeration. There are issues with how it currently is in the alpha; future updates (including the one going through QA now) will add features or make refinements, etc.
Posted By: Dark_Ansem Re: Old Saving Throw Mechanism - 19/11/16 08:49 AM
Originally Posted by Raze

I think 'horribly flawed' is a bit of an exaggeration. There are issues with how it currently is in the alpha; future updates (including the one going through QA now) will add features or make refinements, etc.


I don't particularly dislike it: but I DO believe that it might work best by COMPLEMENTING a saving throw (traditional) system, rather than completely overriding it.

It does not make much sense to be completely vulnerable once armor is out, and somewhat cheapens battle depth.

And thanks for the heads-up about a patch smile
Posted By: Ludvig Re: Old Saving Throw Mechanism - 22/11/16 01:20 AM
Just want to point out that i am among the silent crowd that actiully enjoy the new system.

I prefer having the knowledge to predict what will happen, that helps my decision making, when it was based on % so did you have to just go with the odds and hope for the best.

That said, its not like i think the new system is perfect, for starters so would i like to see more ways to regenerate armor.

For what i understand by Raze so is additions coming to the armor system which i look forward to.
Posted By: Cavemandiary Re: Old Saving Throw Mechanism - 22/11/16 10:28 AM
Originally Posted by Raze

I think 'horribly flawed' is a bit of an exaggeration. There are issues with how it currently is in the alpha; future updates (including the one going through QA now) will add features or make refinements, etc.


Indeed.

To be honest, the system has potential, but in it's current state it is far too polarized.

A simple and rather elegant way to improve the system would be to have your % of armor remaining dictating your % chance to avoid CC. For example, if you have 100 total armor, take 20 damage your armor is now 80, which is also 80%. Your chance to avoid CC is now 80%.

This doesn't void armor stacking, and it adds an element of "expected RNG" that allows you to influence your own odds in a skillful way.

Naturally this is a nerf to the current system, so it has to be compensated by either increasing armor values across the board or by adding more ways to regenerate armor.

I would prefer the ladder, as those mechanics are scarse. Right now I think it's only fortify for physical armor and frost armor for magical?
Posted By: Surrealialis Re: Old Saving Throw Mechanism - 22/11/16 02:01 PM
Hated saving throws.
Love armor mechanic, even as is. (though we can make it better)

TL:DR Armor>>>>>>>>>>>saving throws
Posted By: Dark_Ansem Re: Old Saving Throw Mechanism - 22/11/16 08:35 PM
Well, you are entitled to your opinion. But none of you can deny the system is broken.
Posted By: TraceChaos Re: Old Saving Throw Mechanism - 22/11/16 10:04 PM
Originally Posted by Dark_Ansem
Well, you are entitled to your opinion. But none of you can deny the system is broken.

IT's not broken though, and thus I'm denying that.
Legit ; it's good as is. Could it be improved upon? Yes. Specifically I liked the idea someone else suggested of saving throws with no armor, and armor just making you up and immune.
Posted By: Dark_Ansem Re: Old Saving Throw Mechanism - 22/11/16 10:09 PM
Well, I thank you for the vote of confidence. But such a glaring omission identifies a broken system!
Posted By: MadDemiurg Re: Old Saving Throw Mechanism - 02/12/16 11:43 PM
I don't like RNG, so I don't like saving throws.

But I don't like current system either cause it's too "all or nothing". Once the armour is gone, the character turns into a helpless ragdoll. I'd prefer saving throws to this tbh.

Maybe a better system would be to have armour passively regenerate each turn, so you actually have to overcome it every time and not just once (not fully, but some %). I'd also let characters gain some small amount of both physical and magic armour through leveling to not rely 100% on itemisation. Not sure if there's a possibility for a drastic redesign here though.

Alternatively at least give some temporary hard CC immunity after suffering through one e.g. being stunned granting a stun immunity for the next 2 turns, so it's more difficult to chain CC stuff (I hope the game would have good difficulty and battles will last for more than 1 turn in its final state)
Posted By: aj0413 Re: Old Saving Throw Mechanism - 03/12/16 02:00 PM
When people discuss the unified belief that the system is 'broken'; I think the people who like the armor system are confusing the sentence with the implication that the armor system should be removed. Even the OP simply suggests complementing the system with saving throws and giving options for when armor is gone. Which is actually simply an improvement on the armor system; not an override.

It's not a loud minority. Everyone thinks the new system is too 'all or nothing' and that the armor system has large rooms for improvement. The divide isn't about the system being flawed, but in how to shore up said flaws.

Connecting saving throws with the armor value seems too much to me. The pain reflection defense seems pretty awesome new change, but doesnt really address the CC issue of 'all or nothing'

The new leadership system effecting dodge and such is neat, but unless it effects the entire party, up to and including the 'leader' themselves, we run into the issue of one character in the party feeling pretty weak cause of lack of points to use for his own needs.
Posted By: gGeo Re: Old Saving Throw Mechanism - 03/12/16 05:00 PM
One grate attribute helped Original Sin 1 to become popular.

>>> Easy to get started <<<<

The current armor idea is complicated.

There is no need to say anything else.
If designers believe that armor idea needs to be polished rather than removed, then please, polish it to the way of simplicity. Do not try to improve it by adding more sophistication.

Maby merge two the anti-magic shield buffer to one ?
Dont know.
Posted By: gGeo Re: Old Saving Throw Mechanism - 03/12/16 05:09 PM
Originally Posted by hairyscotsman
Or there's a very active minority who don't like it
Well I was one of the loud who said that cut AP points is wrong idea. And it will lead to static combat and artificial rules how to get over it.

What happened ? In latest patch we get 1m free movement, but it is allowed only before attack.

WTF ?

I have time for step and shoot bow, but dont have time for shoot and step ?

That is soooo unfortunate. This system step and attack only - introduced modern series of UFO. The dumb one. The old series - the fun one - you could do actions in any order.

Why Original sin need a stupid rule like that ?
Why Original sin shot himself to a knee by forcing actions in certain order ?

That is why I hate so called democracy. If few says something good it is passed because it is just loud minority.
Posted By: error3 Re: Old Saving Throw Mechanism - 03/12/16 05:18 PM
Originally Posted by gGeo
Well I was one of the loud who said that cut AP points is wrong idea. And it will lead to static combat and artificial rules how to get over it.

What happened ? In latest patch we get 1m free movement, but it is allowed only before attack.

WTF ?

I have time for step and shoot bow, but dont have time for shoot and step ?

That is soooo unfortunate. This system step and attack only - introduced modern series of UFO. The dumb one. The old series - the fun one - you could do actions in any order.

Why Original sin need a stupid rule like that ?
Why Original sin shot himself to a knee by forcing actions in certain order ?


Completely agree. The free movement should be granted in any order. It doesn't make sense why it's only given before attacks.
Posted By: Dark_Ansem Re: Old Saving Throw Mechanism - 03/12/16 06:29 PM
I'm glad so many people agree. I like complexity, but this adds no real depth.
Posted By: Kalrakh Re: Old Saving Throw Mechanism - 03/12/16 07:18 PM
It's sadly a week free 'The pawn' and the current armor system is in no way complicated. It is probably more too easy.
Posted By: ImariKurumi Re: Old Saving Throw Mechanism - 05/12/16 02:01 AM
I like the Phy Armor, Magic Armor system but after sinking in a couple of hours, the whole system feels off and is lacking. Imo the saving throws mechanic should make a return to complement the Armor mechanic. Balancing between the 2 systems is a challenge but i'm pretty confident Larian can work it out.
Posted By: Dark_Ansem Re: Old Saving Throw Mechanism - 05/12/16 09:55 PM
Originally Posted by ImariKurumi
I like the Phy Armor, Magic Armor system but after sinking in a couple of hours, the whole system feels off and is lacking. Imo the saving throws mechanic should make a return to complement the Armor mechanic. Balancing between the 2 systems is a challenge but i'm pretty confident Larian can work it out.


Yay! Thanks smile
Posted By: Stabbey Re: Old Saving Throw Mechanism - 05/12/16 10:03 PM
I will say this: the current magic system does not work in any way with the Fear skills, especially the ones enemies have, ESPECIALLY the ones which hit all targets in an AoE.
Posted By: Dark_Ansem Re: Old Saving Throw Mechanism - 09/08/17 08:01 PM
Armor system still feels dreadful.
Posted By: Party Starter Re: Old Saving Throw Mechanism - 14/08/17 05:54 PM
I think people are looking at this wrong. The bulk of the problem doesn't lay with the mechanic that prevents cc (saving throws/armor) but with the availability of cc.

Seriously, why does every aerothurge skill have to stun? And all the offensive hydrosophist skills need to freeze? Why do so many of the available warrior skills have a knockdown?

They need to make crowd control more expensive for the caster so they have to make an active decision to use it. If the abilities with cc had longer cooldowns, were not as common, didn't have other utility (like a gap closer, battering ram is kinda bs), or usually had a 3 ap cost instead of 1 or 2, then over half of this problem would be solved right away.

Anyway, I hate rng whenever it can realistically be expected to decide a match. If rng is in charge of crowd control in a game where you can often die in 3 turns or less, then too much is riding on it already, so no, I'd never want to go back to old saving throws.
Posted By: Linio Re: Old Saving Throw Mechanism - 14/08/17 06:57 PM
I had the same question. Why the alternative was not to just add skills only revolving around CC and being less "frequent", like one per class, with a high cooldown enough so that it would be situational instead of being the bread and butter of combat.

This is what scares me with the release on September though, the present batch will not have been tested by players, so if it's flawed, it will be flawed for release, that's a shame...
Posted By: Cyka Re: Old Saving Throw Mechanism - 15/08/17 12:35 AM
Ah well, just run 4x elf party mage 29 ap build and steamroll the entire tactician mode.
Posted By: geala Re: Old Saving Throw Mechanism - 15/08/17 06:36 AM
If a fight is not decided by cc, it is decided by raw damage. Or randomness. Currently we have a system combining raw damage and cc with very few randomness. I like it more or less.
Posted By: Dark_Ansem Re: Old Saving Throw Mechanism - 15/08/17 08:19 AM
What is CC?
Posted By: vometia Re: Old Saving Throw Mechanism - 15/08/17 10:17 AM
Crowd control. Like when all your dudes get perma-stunned by various meanies.
Posted By: geala Re: Old Saving Throw Mechanism - 15/08/17 10:58 AM
Or transformed into a chicken for a turn. I always get hungry when I see it.
Posted By: Veligan Re: Old Saving Throw Mechanism - 15/08/17 11:45 AM
Originally Posted by Party Starter


They need to make crowd control more expensive for the caster so they have to make an active decision to use it. If the abilities with cc had longer cooldowns, were not as common, didn't have other utility (like a gap closer, battering ram is kinda bs), or usually had a 3 ap cost instead of 1 or 2, then over half of this problem would be solved right away.


Pretty much this. I'd rather have a empower mechanic allowing some skill to have cc with an empower version (cost more ap) than this bad armor system.
I've seen my character getting cc the whole fight, while my friends were able to play I wasn't. This all or nothing is worse than RNG to me. And I hate RNG.

And don't forget that the armor system forbid synergy between different damage source. Enemy has 5hp and no physical armor ? But all his magical armor is up so the mage in your group can't finish him up. Great. Better have full physical or full magical.
Posted By: aj0413 Re: Old Saving Throw Mechanism - 15/08/17 07:06 PM
Originally Posted by Party Starter
I think people are looking at this wrong. The bulk of the problem doesn't lay with the mechanic that prevents cc (saving throws/armor) but with the availability of cc.

Seriously, why does every aerothurge skill have to stun? And all the offensive hydrosophist skills need to freeze? Why do so many of the available warrior skills have a knockdown?

They need to make crowd control more expensive for the caster so they have to make an active decision to use it. If the abilities with cc had longer cooldowns, were not as common, didn't have other utility (like a gap closer, battering ram is kinda bs), or usually had a 3 ap cost instead of 1 or 2, then over half of this problem would be solved right away.

Anyway, I hate rng whenever it can realistically be expected to decide a match. If rng is in charge of crowd control in a game where you can often die in 3 turns or less, then too much is riding on it already, so no, I'd never want to go back to old saving throws.


Problem here is that you'll end up turning this into diablo 3 where types of damage don't matter and the only difference between an ice shard and lightning spell is the graphics.

Every skill is meant to feel powerful, unique, and multifaceted in order to make up for the memory stat limiting number of skills and to encourage people to not feel gimped when either building a class wide or tall.

Also, the armor system is inherently flawed.
Just look at the example above with the 5hp but your make cane do anything.

Armor should mitigate damage, not stop it completely. Just as it should mitigate CC, but not stop it completely. Further, the armor values across enemies should represent more specialization in armor type to encourage mixed PC parties.

Yeah, they could tone down the hard CC, but I can always just build a high memory class that takes the CC skills from every tree and be done with it; I'll still have plenty of options.
Posted By: Deadknight Re: Old Saving Throw Mechanism - 15/08/17 07:29 PM
We'll have to see how it goes but many of us have strong feeling and great ideas on how the system should be of feel like, however this is probably too hard to completely change the system with all the balancing and tuning it would require even if they already though about it a few month ago.

To solve the 5 hp guy problem (if you even consider it a problem, some ppl might think it's fine, and I am not overly concerned by that type of occurrence) they could still make it that Wands have a tiny part of their damages being Physical (piercing) damage the same way magical melee weapon have magical damages imbued into them.

And yes you mage can still do something. He can Nether Swap, teleport or be a necro and do physical damage.
Does it feel wasting a teleport to finish off a guy ? Maybe but that's how the game is and how any games are in these clutch situation, you sometimes have to use skill you want to keep but the circumstances, ...
Or Keep scrolls for your mages for added variety.
Posted By: Linio Re: Old Saving Throw Mechanism - 16/08/17 02:58 PM
Then again rng is the bread and butter of rpg since even before they were adapted to computers.

I must admit I'd rather have a mitigation system rather than a full barrier. The simple idea of saying "once the barrier is down, everything lands" seems flawed just by reading it... A percentage system would be better with the armor only reducing the possibility of cc or even damage for that matter...

Then again, the game comes out in a month, do you think they'll change anything about it. I'm waiting to see the final release but the more I come on these forums the less I'm confident about it being a good system...
Posted By: Party Starter Re: Old Saving Throw Mechanism - 16/08/17 03:28 PM
Originally Posted by aj0413

Yeah, they could tone down the hard CC, but I can always just build a high memory class that takes the CC skills from every tree and be done with it; I'll still have plenty of options.


If you build a high memory class and invest points in multiple different skill sets like aerothurge, hydrosophist, etc to get all the types of cc, you've already made a large sacrifice to get a bunch of cc. Your character will deal a lot less damage than characters of comparable level. And if they made each of those cc spells have a higher ap cost than they do now, then they wouldn't be applying cc to every single enemy a turn. I feel like that could be balanced, even with the current armor system.

Changing the entire armor system at this point right before release is not feasible, true. However, rebalancing individual skills that apply crowd control and making them cost more ap or removing their cc entirely (in exchange for extra damage or something to keep them balanced) would at this point be doable. Not that I think they will do it. It's just an option.
Posted By: Cyka Re: Old Saving Throw Mechanism - 16/08/17 07:17 PM
Currently once armor is off your damage doesnt matter, Once all enemies are electrified by huge amount of water + electricity, i skipped my turn until all enemies are stunned to death and is just a matter of skipping my turns. This is not strategy nor is it actually a good system.

Why not actually separate CCs into tiers so that some makes you lose X amount of AP, some pushes your turn back alittle, and only the most powerful skips your turn?

Currently CC skipping turns is so absolutely powerful it is why the armor system is so flawed, because it is all or nothing. The way Oil works is brilliant so i do not understand why cant they just implant more things like that, it'd be easy with the current combat system too.

Besides, making CC reduce your AP for X amount of turns also allows you to fight against them if you know what you doing, with those 1ap CC cleansers, and makes certain traits such as Glass Cannon not completely useless.
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