Larian Studios
Posted By: drBrod Initiative, how it works now? - 17/09/17 03:32 PM
I wonder how this stat works now. During EA it was necessary to act before enemies, but now it seems weird. Sometimes the combat rounds are just "one mine, one them", and i haven't yet figured out how this system works.
It's good now to boost initiative on your party?
Posted By: Kalrakh Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 17/09/17 03:37 PM
Are you playing Tactician? Initiative works different there ^^
Posted By: Ellezard Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 17/09/17 03:39 PM
Originally Posted by Kalrakh
Are you playing Tactician? Initiative works different there ^^


Wait, so Classic is still "Stack wits and AoE them all in one turn?"

I thought that was a global change in general.
Posted By: Stabbey Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 17/09/17 03:47 PM
Originally Posted by Ellezard
Wait, so Classic is still "Stack wits and AoE them all in one turn?"

I thought that was a global change in general.


Do you hire a helicopter to get lifted back up onto your high horse?

(You didn't need to include the dose of condescension directed at anyone who isn't playing Tactician difficulty.)
Posted By: Kalrakh Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 17/09/17 03:50 PM
I don't know, I hardly played because its hard to get 4 people together sometimes.
Posted By: Ellezard Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 17/09/17 03:57 PM
Originally Posted by Stabbey
Originally Posted by Ellezard
Wait, so Classic is still "Stack wits and AoE them all in one turn?"

I thought that was a global change in general.


Do you hire a helicopter to get lifted back up onto your high horse?


It's so high you think they give it +50% height.
Posted By: drBrod Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 17/09/17 05:18 PM
Atm i'm playing on tactician, and i put one point in wit almost every level.
Posted By: Ellezard Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 17/09/17 05:33 PM
Originally Posted by drBrod
Atm i'm playing on tactician, and i put one point in wit almost every level.


You only need wit on one char, the one you intended to always go first.

The rest go pure damage or whatever you want.

With the initiative rotation, no matter how high or low your wit is, you will always get to go because it's always You-enemy-you-enemy assuming you went first.

And it goes form "highest" to lowest ini when deciding who from your team will go next.

So yeah, min-maxing, 1 char with Wits and damage, the rest pure damage along with whatever else they need.
Posted By: JamesDyk Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 19/09/17 09:09 AM
[quote=Kalrakh]Are you playing Tactician? Initiative works different there ^^ [/quote]

Can you somehow confirm that?

Cause I've read multiple times that the staggered turn order is global and not a tactician mode thing.

Posted By: geala Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 19/09/17 10:06 AM
As far as I see it is the same on Tactician and Classic. It is really different compared to the EA because it generally makes the attribute Wits unimportant. I increase it on one char (Summoner) to go first, then it is in alternating order you-AI.

Which is not bad game design in itself because it prevents the whole PC group going first all the time, as I had it in the EA. Because of the new mechanic I actually lost a fight one time on Classic, the Dallis encounter on the ship. The coming Battletech Mech turn based game uses the same alternating order, it's the way of greatest fairness.



Posted By: Naqel Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 19/09/17 10:14 AM
Originally Posted by geala
The coming Battletech Mech turn based game uses the same alternating order, it's the way of greatest fairness.


No it doesn't. All available gameplay for it shows teams acting as a whole, one after the other.


It's also a completely unfair system: when you invest in wits as a stat, it's for the late-game promise of frequent critical hits, and the immediate benefit of your team being able to go before the enemy(which you need because of the complete lack of utility that comes from wits otherwise).

As it is, leveling wits is solely a tool for ordering your party so the guys you want to go first get to go first, and if you want the crit guy to go last it's tough shit cause there's no other way to alter initiative, or delay your turn to a specific moment(you always give up all your initiative, never just enough to go before the next enemy/after the next ally).
Posted By: geala Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 19/09/17 10:29 AM
Wits still gives you a critical chance. It is a bad attribute as such, unlike in the EA, I concur. But it was too easy to destroy the AI in the EA because you could go first with the whole party. Any boss was dead the first turn without doing anything (except Radeka, the bi..., uhm, witch). Maybe that's the reason they changed it.

As to Battletech, I'm not sure about what "teams acting as a whole" you speak. Maybe we are talking about different games? In the Battletech I mean (from HBS) the AI (or enemy player in PvP) and you act in alternating order, one AI Mech, one of yours. It's actually more complicated because there are tiers of the move order and you can reserve your moves to a certain degree, but that's not the place to discuss it here.
Posted By: Ellezard Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 19/09/17 10:40 AM
The "Everyone takes a turn" is the only way to create a fair turn-based combat system else they will have to balance the game around everyone on your team always acting first because half decent player will just abuse high ini glass cannon build and they will have to bloat the enemies armor and defense even higher to prevent this mockery.

Remember in EA how unfair and broken it was to pump enough wits and have your entire team go first with a teleport set-up to a teamwide AoE CC. That old system fair for the player because it's broken and is unfair for the AI. They might as well give you a button to autowin every non-boss fight since you can round everyone up and just perma CC them all starting at turn 1.

At least Wit stat is more useful than lolCON. That stat is still a noobtrap.
Posted By: TsunAmik Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 19/09/17 10:41 AM
Yeah, constitution not boosting shields is just fcking blasphemy frown
Posted By: drBrod Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 19/09/17 11:00 AM
Mmh i understand the reason for this decision about init system, but i dont think this is necessarily the best way to do it. Now it feels just bad to boost initiative with other characters, and you need to do it in many scenario (for example, when you dont go first with your critter).
What about a system that debuff the first turn characters? like a card game, who go first also have some sort of disadvantages during that turn. It could balance and prevent the EA op wombo combos on first turn.
Posted By: TsunAmik Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 19/09/17 11:03 AM
That way we could just remove wits altogether tho, and give crit to finesse or smthng smile Not a bad idea imo
Posted By: Ellezard Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 19/09/17 11:05 AM
Wit and ini is fine the way it is. Go buff Con and Mem because those 2 are the weakest stat atm in any good min-max build. Con is a joke stat and Mem is a waste of point on non-mage because most skills have been nerfed to barely deal any more damage than normal attacking. Only mages really care about Mem now because they have to be able to use all the good spells of every school to be useful if they don't want to be a summoning tool.
Posted By: TsunAmik Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 19/09/17 11:08 AM
Hah, memory is far from being useless, since it is used in most mage builds and every single hybrid build...

This way I could claim that strength is useless because it is used only by warfare characters -_-

Constitution tho... what a waste of text
Posted By: geala Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 19/09/17 11:20 AM
I'm a bit baffled. How many points do you have in Memory? I'm about 14 to 16 even on my melee chars (at lvl 8), you need a lot utility stuff, any of my chars f.e. has a heal and mobility spell.
Posted By: Ellezard Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 19/09/17 11:30 AM
Originally Posted by geala
I'm a bit baffled. How many points do you have in Memory? I'm about 14 to 16 even on my melee chars (at lvl 8), you need a lot utility stuff, any of my chars f.e. has a heal and mobility spell.


0.

A proper min/maxed char will have a certain school mastered first. By the time I dip into Geomancer for red prince to get Earth quake, Mending armor and fortify, I already have enough free slots I don't need to worry.

The thing is, if your builds are properly min/maxed and your weapons are all legendaries the same level as you, most fights end in 2 turns so you never get to use all those mobility and healing spells. I'm stomping at level 15 tactician atm with way too much damage and if the fight gets to turn 3 or something, it's because the fight has too many ranger heavily spaced or is a long one like Primodial Oil/Fire battle.

Only Fane, my tank mage, has 8 into Mem and I only use him for the same 7-8 spells at most, barely needing anymore point in Mem. I just have it there because I am too lazy to swap out some spell although I will never use them.
Posted By: JamesDyk Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 19/09/17 12:29 PM
Okay, from picking up bits and pieces from every comment so far and some of my insight on it.


Con is currently useless, because of the armor stats. In my opinion those armors are too OP. I'm not against them in general, having them protect you against magical or physical damage, but giving 100% resistance to most status effects makes them incredibly powerful.

Wits or rather Initiative doesn't really matter anymore and the argument about "you just go first with your entire team and CC them to death" doesn't really count either, since everyone got a ton of armor to begin with. So they practically implemented TWO systems to avoid ONE problem, which is being able to kill everything within one turn.


I'd rather go with buffing the armor points a bit, have them have higher numbers, but remove the 100% resistance. This way status effects still matter, but to actually damage the enemy they have to get through the corresponding armor at first (bleeding through armor, burning through magical armor, etc.).
Being able to run through ground effects, just because of armor sounds stupid to begin with.
Which makes them not as powerful as back in the first game.

Or leave it as it is, but get Initiative back to what it was before. You can't CC everyone either way, because of their armor. If you want to start earlier you end up making less damage, the same should go for the AI. Some enemies should have more wits, but in return have less HP and/or armor.


That's just a bit of how I'd have liked it, especially since I thoroughly enjoyed the first game and how it worked there.
Posted By: TsunAmik Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 19/09/17 12:44 PM
Damn yeah, I agree that non CC status effects really should go through armor... or atleast their weaker parts (shocked, wet, warm, chilled)

make no mistake tho, with proper minmaxing you can still fuckup whole team in 1-2 turns, even with armors smile Thanks to new init, thats no longer possible so easily
Posted By: rumpelstilskin Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 19/09/17 03:14 PM
i think it only forces the you-enemy-you thing if the number of characters is the same in both parties, which is very rarely the case. 'surplus' characters will be clumped together, so it still kind of matters in which part of the list they end up.
Posted By: Violet Gekko Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 19/09/17 06:31 PM
It's a shit stat now. You don't level it over 3 point with any class but archer/wayfather, because what the point?

It's only give bonus 1% crit. chance per point after it's most worthless stat.
Posted By: Vibalist Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 19/09/17 09:24 PM
Honestly, it's baffling that the only way Larian knew how to deal with enemies always being last was to make Wits useless. You don't fix a problem by introducing a new one.

They either need to come up with a new use for Wits or simply go back to the way it worked in EA. If that makes the game too unbalanced in the player's favor, they need to find a way to boost enemies' initiative.
Posted By: Ellezard Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 19/09/17 09:25 PM
Wit is still the 2nd most useful stat for damage build. Everyone, including mage, after they max Int/Str/Fin, has to go Wit second for the crit rate.

At this point, Wit is for Crit with Ini being an extra bonus, like how Str has melee damage with extra weight capacity.
Posted By: Kalrakh Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 19/09/17 09:27 PM
Instead of 5% more damage, 1% more crit chance? Not sure if that really sounds like a fitting trade of.
Posted By: Ellezard Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 19/09/17 09:29 PM
The max amount you can put into a stat is 30, that's 15 levels in and you still have a long way more to go if our cap is really 30.

So with the way it works, you will get a Max Str/Fin/Int and Max Wit, with less into wit if you invest into Mem for some source skill slot and want to have 50 different skills to use with for some reason.

And even if there's no cap, after a certain point, crit % adds more damage than str/fin/int does especially if you have high crit multiplier.
Posted By: Vibalist Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 19/09/17 09:40 PM
[quote=Ellezard]Wit is still the 2nd most useful stat for damage build. Everyone, including mage, after they max Int/Str/Fin, has to go Wit second for the crit rate.

At this point, Wit is for Crit with Ini being an extra bonus, like how Str has melee damage with extra weight capacity.[/quote]

That's not good enough. No one is going to heavily invest in Wits at the expense of their man stat(s). Either they need to up the amount of crit chance you get, make it do something new or revert back to the old way, where whoever has the highest initiative goes first.

Also, the fact that Wits is the second most important stat for fighters is only, as you correctly pointed out, because Con does so little. This just means that two stats are essentially worthless.
Posted By: TsunAmik Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 20/09/17 05:48 AM
It would be worthless only if you had no better stat to use - which you usually dont once you max main stat. So WIT isnt as bad really...
Posted By: geala Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 20/09/17 06:46 AM
Originally Posted by Ellezard
Originally Posted by geala
I'm a bit baffled. How many points do you have in Memory? I'm about 14 to 16 even on my melee chars (at lvl 8), you need a lot utility stuff, any of my chars f.e. has a heal and mobility spell.


0.

A proper min/maxed char will have a certain school mastered first. By the time I dip into Geomancer for red prince to get Earth quake, Mending armor and fortify, I already have enough free slots I don't need to worry.

The thing is, if your builds are properly min/maxed and your weapons are all legendaries the same level as you, most fights end in 2 turns so you never get to use all those mobility and healing spells. I'm stomping at level 15 tactician atm with way too much damage and if the fight gets to turn 3 or something, it's because the fight has too many ranger heavily spaced or is a long one like Primodial Oil/Fire battle.

Only Fane, my tank mage, has 8 into Mem and I only use him for the same 7-8 spells at most, barely needing anymore point in Mem. I just have it there because I am too lazy to swap out some spell although I will never use them.


So the others you left at Memory 10? If your Fane has 18 at level 15 (?), then that's not so much less then what my chars have, 14 to 16 at level 10.

I'm on Classic, as I want to play normally without item hunt and special tactics. Fights go a bit longer so maybe, although all stats are lower on Classic than on Tactician.

Yesterday I had a fight against possessed dwarfs who concentrated on Ifan and I needed any support spell on my other chars to keep him alive (only to have him die after the fight running into a trap with low health, I was ... not amused).
Posted By: Ellezard Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 20/09/17 08:37 AM
Originally Posted by geala
Originally Posted by Ellezard
Originally Posted by geala
I'm a bit baffled. How many points do you have in Memory? I'm about 14 to 16 even on my melee chars (at lvl 8), you need a lot utility stuff, any of my chars f.e. has a heal and mobility spell.


0.

A proper min/maxed char will have a certain school mastered first. By the time I dip into Geomancer for red prince to get Earth quake, Mending armor and fortify, I already have enough free slots I don't need to worry.

The thing is, if your builds are properly min/maxed and your weapons are all legendaries the same level as you, most fights end in 2 turns so you never get to use all those mobility and healing spells. I'm stomping at level 15 tactician atm with way too much damage and if the fight gets to turn 3 or something, it's because the fight has too many ranger heavily spaced or is a long one like Primodial Oil/Fire battle.

Only Fane, my tank mage, has 8 into Mem and I only use him for the same 7-8 spells at most, barely needing anymore point in Mem. I just have it there because I am too lazy to swap out some spell although I will never use them.


So the others you left at Memory 10? If your Fane has 18 at level 15 (?), then that's not so much less then what my chars have, 14 to 16 at level 10.

I'm on Classic, as I want to play normally without item hunt and special tactics. Fights go a bit longer so maybe, although all stats are lower on Classic than on Tactician.

Yesterday I had a fight against possessed dwarfs who concentrated on Ifan and I needed any support spell on my other chars to keep him alive (only to have him die after the fight running into a trap with low health, I was ... not amused).


Yeah, the rest at 10 and My Fane already has some empty slot so it's probably better to reduce it to 15 or something but there's just no stat worth getting (Int barely increases damage on him because he rarely gets to deal damage, just make everyone unkillable. Even at 17 now, I'm still using Redaka wand because it has +Hydro instead of an update done.

And once you get to 16, you will see how busted the game is with Source spell. With a teleporter in Sivah place for easy source refill, you always use source spell in every fight and some skill like Arrow storm is soooo busted. Maximum damage is just broke when enemies die before they get to deal damage so you never have to bother to heal or anything.

But if you really have trouble with survivability, go get a slotted necklace and a source orb, easy by just stealing form Tariqwhathisname. Each orb is actually worth 2.5k something (he just overprices them) and with 8 thievery (5 + 3 gears), you can easily grab 4 of them along with some gold.

Insert the source orb into the necklaces and have everyone wear them. The evasive aura makes everyone dodge everything that isn't guaranteed hit and with all 4 of them having it, you can just chain them for a total of 4 turns of dodge aura. That's like 4 turns of lolinvul.
Posted By: Mercer Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 20/09/17 10:09 AM
I really don't get how people think it's a useless stat..? The way I see it, it's a complementary value to damage dealing builds with the nice sideeffect of being able to move earlier in turn order - is this not the case? Furthermore there are tactical options enabled through this like skipping a turn and being able to act two turn in a row for instance.

I play on tactician/honour mode primarily so I am quite happy the turn order is distributed over all characers in the encounter: it adds to the challange and I get to see all the baddies capabilities.
Posted By: Luckmann Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 20/09/17 12:11 PM
Originally Posted by Mercer
... being abke to move earlier in turn order ....
[Linked Image]

The turn order is, for whatever asinine reason, distributed evenly between allies and opponents, making Initiative completely and utterly meaningless, to the point where it's essentially a dead mechanic and might just as well be removed.

Out of all the frankly retarded decisions I've seen so far, this one really takes the cake. Completely indefensible.
Posted By: TsunAmik Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 20/09/17 12:13 PM
I defend it, it makes combat much more fun for me, as it is now allows reactive gameplay, instead of instant win on turn 1 smile
Posted By: geala Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 20/09/17 12:17 PM
Originally Posted by Ellezard
...

But if you really have trouble with survivability, go get a slotted necklace and a source orb, easy by just stealing form Tariqwhathisname. Each orb is actually worth 2.5k something (he just overprices them) and with 8 thievery (5 + 3 gears), you can easily grab 4 of them along with some gold.

Insert the source orb into the necklaces and have everyone wear them. The evasive aura makes everyone dodge everything that isn't guaranteed hit and with all 4 of them having it, you can just chain them for a total of 4 turns of dodge aura. That's like 4 turns of lolinvul.


This does not sound like fun. Super hard difficulty solved by ubar combinations is not my preferred style of play.

But thanks for the hint. I don't like stealing but I already found one of the source orbs in Siva's flat. Momentarily sits in the inventory.

Maybe I will play as long as possible without source skills.

I have problems with survivability only in rare situations (three deaths since start, one of it outside combat), but I'm a bit undergeared at the moment, I lack money all the time. hahaha
Posted By: geala Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 20/09/17 12:26 PM
Originally Posted by Luckmann
...snip...

The turn order is, for whatever asinine reason, distributed evenly between allies and opponents, making Initiative completely and utterly meaningless, to the point where it's essentially a dead mechanic and might just as well be removed.
...


The reason is a fair distribution of possibilities to take part in the combat.

I saw such an alternating acting order first in the Battletech beta and questioned the silly me-you-me-you system, as I was used to the whole-party-acts-first play of the DOS2 EA. I recognized quickly that it is a much better system however.
Posted By: Kalrakh Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 20/09/17 12:49 PM
But why even bother then with making an attribute giving Initiative? You could just make it, that Players always get the first, like probably many of these games do without bothering. Player - Mob - Player - Mob - as standard. At current state Wits is missleading and pretty pointless.
Posted By: TsunAmik Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 20/09/17 01:05 PM
Well it still allows you to set order of your characters turn... I for instance always want my elemental mage go first, so he can setup surfaces for my summoner and buff my party if I am lazy to do it before fight.. and I want my summoner to go second, with my rogue always last (as I use him to focus down out of position enemies)
Posted By: Jimmious Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 20/09/17 01:08 PM
This is a really weird decision. Generally there seems to have been a bit too much focus on "balance" as if this is an MMO.
That's very wrong imo. Let the systems be and if there are exploits let us enjoy them too.
Doesn't make any sense for example if I have a group of super fast elves and I fight stone golems and one of them still gets to move and act before 3 of mine. It's just wrong and weird.
Posted By: TsunAmik Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 20/09/17 01:13 PM
Its not weird, it is more natural, that enemy can fight back and defend themselves unless it is complete ambush. When opponents meet up, one of them doesnt just simply stand there getting focused down defenseless - now they atleast have fighting chance - otherwise there would be no defense against 4x teleport+mass AOE
Posted By: Linio Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 20/09/17 01:50 PM
Then again in real life, someone does not wait for someone else to use all of its life action point to give him a slap.
Natural is not exactly what you're searching in a turn-based combat...
Posted By: Mercer Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 20/09/17 03:35 PM
Originally Posted by Luckmann
Originally Posted by Mercer
... being abke to move earlier in turn order ....
[Linked Image]

The turn order is, for whatever asinine reason, distributed evenly between allies and opponents, making Initiative completely and utterly meaningless, to the point where it's essentially a dead mechanic and might just as well be removed.

Out of all the frankly retarded decisions I've seen so far, this one really takes the cake. Completely indefensible.


Spare us your condescending bullshit memes... thx.

My impression is that my high initiative rogue is very early on in each encounter - is somebody able provide the math that is coded in this game to back up some claims in this forum... otherwise it will stay a mystery it seems or?
Posted By: Deemedrol Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 20/09/17 06:06 PM
Originally Posted by TsunAmik
Damn yeah, I agree that non CC status effects really should go through armor... or atleast their weaker parts (shocked, wet, warm, chilled)

Completely agree, that's how I thought it should work too. Currently mages feel pretty weak - not only enemies never have Physical resist but often do have a lot of elemental resists, CC'ing enemies with magic is more difficult now as well. Applying "mild" CC statuses like Warm or Shocked through armor should at least somehow help with elemental resists.
Posted By: Kalrakh Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 20/09/17 07:26 PM
Spending Wits just to define an order is still pretty pointless, because in core Wits does not really do, what is described to to. You could as easily just have the players define their acting order without having to compensate if Wits on Items ruins their wished order.
Posted By: kaltorak Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 20/09/17 07:47 PM
I can't even believe this. I was realizing there was something wierd about initiative, but I wasnt really paying attention.

This change is absolutely crap. Im not talking about balance. Games need to be balanced, but fun is also important. You have to balance the game while keeping the fun elements. And initiative is (was) IMO one of the most fun stats. Its not just +damage or +resistances. Its something that changes the flow of battle.

And not only did they remove the stat, even worse, they make it useless while still mantaining the stat. Looks like a total clumsy last moment change without any thought put into it.

If you think players stacking initiative were beeing too powerful, do some thinking and search for a way to make a cool change, not just remove a cool stat.
Posted By: kaltorak Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 20/09/17 07:49 PM
Originally Posted by Mercer


My impression is that my high initiative rogue is very early on in each encounter - is somebody able provide the math that is coded in this game to back up some claims in this forum... otherwise it will stay a mystery it seems or?


I hadnt noticed it myself, but as far as Im reading in this post, initiative sets the order of movement between your chars. So, its always you, AI, you AI, and so on. But you see your rogue early, because she has higher initiative than your other chars.

crap mechanic
Posted By: Zherot Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 20/09/17 08:05 PM
Yeah, so many things were good on the first game and they actually made them worse, why the fuck developers do that?

As soon as i get to respec i will only have 1 character with high initiative and will be my glass cannon one.
Posted By: Luckmann Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 20/09/17 08:49 PM
Originally Posted by Mercer
Originally Posted by Luckmann
Originally Posted by Mercer
... being abke to move earlier in turn order ....
[Linked Image]

The turn order is, for whatever asinine reason, distributed evenly between allies and opponents, making Initiative completely and utterly meaningless, to the point where it's essentially a dead mechanic and might just as well be removed.

Out of all the frankly retarded decisions I've seen so far, this one really takes the cake. Completely indefensible.


Spare us your condescending bullshit memes... thx.

My impression is that my high initiative rogue is very early on in each encounter - is somebody able provide the math that is coded in this game to back up some claims in this forum... otherwise it will stay a mystery it seems or?
Spare us your inability to comprehend bullshit memes... thx.

And your high-initiative rogue is likely moving early in every encounter. That is not the issue. The issue is as I described.

There's no mystery to it, and there's no math. No matter your initiative, the turn order will alternate between enemies and allies. Initiative is therefore only relevant for determining who goes first in each team, and completely useless when it comes to actually affecting combat in a tangible fashion, or to plan synergies.

It is also, apparently, hardcoded, so it's literally unfixable by anyone other than Larian, and for whatever insane reason, this was already a conscious decision by someone at Larian, so it's unlikely to actually be resolved.

Made me shelve the game, it's simply too infuriating to play like this.

Originally Posted by Zherot
Yeah, so many things were good on the first game and they actually made them worse, why the fuck developers do that?

As soon as i get to respec i will only have 1 character with high initiative and will be my glass cannon one.
I think it's massive over-compensation.

It's like they are deathly afraid of small issues in the prior game manifesting in D:OS2, so they've effectively neutered or nuked those aspects entirely, creating new (less) interesting issues that are somewhat jaw-dropping.

But out of all of them, this one is probably the craziest one. I honestly don't know what to say. This change is making me legitimately angry because of how it affects the overall gameplay and the pacing of combat in so many different ways, and all of them are bad - there's literally no positive aspect to this, unless you're quite literally the worst player imaginable that somehow manage to not keep track of your stats at all, so you end up getting nuked by multiple enemies acting before you in combat.

But to design the game based on that is still so ridiculously myopic. I'm lacking words to properly convey just how stupid round-robin turn-order is in a game, let alone a game that actually uses initiative.
Posted By: Baardvark Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 20/09/17 09:07 PM
Wow, pretty dramatic change that seemed to be fairly under the radar. Wits definitely needs a big buff it only adds 1% crit. I like the concept of a more evenly distributed turn order, but forcing exact alternating turns seems a bit extreme.

The alternating turn order thing could maybe stay if there was more of a benefit to having higher initiative than enemies. Maybe your first turn you deal more damage or have an extra AP if you have significantly more initiative. But, yeah, at least the option to revert it to the old way would be nice.
Posted By: Luckmann Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 20/09/17 09:34 PM
Originally Posted by Baardvark
Wow, pretty dramatic change that seemed to be fairly under the radar. Wits definitely needs a big buff it only adds 1% crit. I like the concept of a more evenly distributed turn order, but forcing exact alternating turns seems a bit extreme.

The alternating turn order thing could maybe stay if there was more of a benefit to having higher initiative than enemies. Maybe your first turn you deal more damage or have an extra AP if you have significantly more initiative. But, yeah, at least the option to revert it to the old way would be nice.
There's many different reasons why this is a really bad system, but even if we incentivize things like Wits and the advancement side of things, we're still left with the situation where it's impossible to capitalize appropriately on initiative in a definitive manner as a team.

This doesn't just affect the player, by the way. It also affects the enemies. For example, enemies in D:OS2 are perfectly capable of putting out barrels on one turn, and then have another enemy break it on the next. However, this obviously doesn't happen when doing round-robin turns.

With alternating turns, the landscape keeps changing rapidly, and it's practically impossible for both the player and the enemies to use this to their advantage at any point unless they're drastically outnumbering their opponent (which in case the player is outnumbering mooks, it will not matter, and if the player is outnumbered, they're already in trouble) - because in the case of mass outnumbering, everyone not in the initial "round robin" lineup gets tucked in a nice cozy lump at the end of the turn order, where they get to do setups or wreck shit. But nobody else. Ever.

Once you notice this, you can never unsee it, and if you're like me and start reflecting over the implications both in terms of how it affects the "here and now" gameplay and from a game design perspective, it's infuriating - and an array of less flattering descriptors that really serve no constructive purpose.

Edit: As a side note, far from the main issues of Initiative being trash and the turn-orders being broken, this also makes humans go from "questionable" to "utterly meaningless". They gain +1 Barter - unquestionably the least useful civic skill - and +2 Initiative, which now ranges from "completely useless" to "actually detrimental".

Sure, they also get Encouragement (which is near-useless, even moreso when compared to the others) and +5% crit, but let's be honest here - that pales completely in comparison to the other races. But those issues are really completely beside the main issues, I just wanted to raise them.
Posted By: Vibalist Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 21/09/17 12:11 AM
+ 1

I like this game, but a lot of its systems seem like last minute implementations no one bothered to test. Tactician difficulty, for example, is also complete shit.

For a game that has been in early access for, what, a year, it's inexcusable such a poorly thought out approach to initiative made it in, or was even considered in the first place. If you absolutely want battles to be 'fair' in the "you go, I go" sense, you should simply have left initiative out and made wits do something else (like add to AP or movement distance).

D:OS1 already had plenty of skills, abilities and stats that were underpowered, but I think D:OS2 is the first game I've played that has a skill that does nothing at all. It's really quite astounding how something like this made it into the final product. Even moreso when you consider the fucking beta version wasn't like this.
Posted By: Zherot Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 21/09/17 12:54 AM
Originally Posted by Luckmann


you end up getting nuked by multiple enemies acting before you in combat.



This and the BS crazy amounts of armor in Tactician is what makes the game mode unfun to play.
Posted By: Diogenes Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 21/09/17 04:09 AM
If initiative let all your characters act first when it was high enough then it would be a mandatory skill, getting all your characters to act before any enemies get a chance to move is really powerful. Especially when you consider things like being able to lay down massive fields of fire/ice/lightning to control where enemies can move or that that summons automatically act after the people who summon them. Then you'd see an arms race of NPCs getting crazy high initiative just to stay competitive. Players would be assumed to be pumping initiative so if you don't then you are building sub-optimally, restricting build freedom.

I think the current system is a compromise of mechanics to allow combat to flow in a more consistent way. You can pump initiative to get one character to act first and get things set up for the rest of the battle as well as set the turn order of your pals but you can't trivialise encounters right off the bat.

A necessary loss of freedom in one aspect of the game to allow the rest to be more enjoyable.
Posted By: TsunAmik Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 21/09/17 04:54 AM
Guys, this change came to the game beause of EA, not despite it. There were simply too many players completely abusing wits for 1turn wins with things like glass cannon and elemental affinity... It was simply too easy, because amongst 4 characters, you can setup such a fucking mayhem that no ordinary enemy stould a fcking chance.

wits as stat should be rebalanced, thats for sure, but forcing combat order was a right thing to do
Posted By: Zherot Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 21/09/17 06:13 AM
Then they should remove the stat entirely, it is only useful for 1 character is just stupid.

In the mean time only enemies are allowed to go one after another... never mind the stupid amounts of armors they have in Tactician and the damage they do that can wipe all your armor no problem and leave you with multiple status effects before you get to do anything.

But hey... at least 1 of your characters went first right?

RIGHT?
Posted By: TsunAmik Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 21/09/17 07:09 AM
guys, this game is easy. It really isnt all that hard, so why complain that it got just tiny little bit harder by this change? It made things more interesting, and made good stat into mediocre stat... In bigger scope of things, its just negligible thing imo.

Posted By: Kalrakh Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 21/09/17 07:15 AM
You are missing the point. It's not about if it is easy or not, it is about the fact, that the attribute is lame idealess bullshit compared to the first. Only one attribute really matters either Str or Fin or Int.


Though being easy makes it even worse.
Posted By: Luckmann Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 21/09/17 09:08 AM
Originally Posted by TsunAmik
Guys, this change came to the game beause of EA, not despite it. There were simply too many players completely abusing wits for 1turn wins with things like glass cannon and elemental affinity... It was simply too easy, because amongst 4 characters, you can setup such a fucking mayhem that no ordinary enemy stould a fcking chance.

wits as stat should be rebalanced, thats for sure, but forcing combat order was a right thing to do
There's tons of different ways this could've been balanced without forcing a round robin system. It was absolutely not the right thing to do, because it strips the game of a relevant sub-system and cheapens combat pacing immensely, as well as ensure that neither the player nor the enemy can do proper environmental setups unless they already outnumber the opponent completely.

The easiest way to maintain a relevant system but still avoid consistent abuse would be to balance the enemies appropriately and add a per-round randomization element. The game already tracks round-to-round, only right now, it's completely useless. Instead, add a +/- 1d5 modifier to each participant on a per-round basis, possibly modified by effective level (at a rate of.. ~0,3 or 0,35 or so?).

Boom, initiative is now valuable but without being the be-all end-all of combat determinism, and it was achieved without putting combat into an anti-fun straight-jacket.
Originally Posted by TsunAmik
guys, this game is easy. It really isnt all that hard, so why complain that it got just tiny little bit harder by this change? It made things more interesting, and made good stat into mediocre stat... In bigger scope of things, its just negligible thing imo.
Hush, the adults are talking. This isn't about some arbitrary sense of difficulty.
Posted By: geala Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 21/09/17 09:13 AM
In the EA all attributes had two benefits. They reduced it to one mostly, Wits has still two goodies, it affects initiative and gives + critical chance. It's an advantage if one of your chars goes first, of course a lot less advantage as going first with the whole group, as in the EA.

If you put Wits only on one char, your choice. If you want more crits, it helps also your other chars. 1% may sound low or nothing but crits can be rather strong in the game and Wits accomplish the other sources of more crit chance. When I read of late game two-handed warriors with 100% crit chance and 280% crit damage, one-shotting most enemies, I'm glad that Wits gives not more than now.
Posted By: Jimmious Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 21/09/17 09:15 AM
Yeah this should be fixed asap. It seems like a weird change focused on "balance" which should not be the focus on a single player game. Fun should be the focus.
Also since most enemies are non-human what's stopping Larian to make them have Wits of 32 or something, so that they are always first? I guess it was more time consuming to balance things per encounter and they went for this bad decision which deems a stat near-useless.
It's still early enough to fix this
Posted By: aqa Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 21/09/17 09:20 AM
Originally Posted by TsunAmik
otherwise there would be no defense against 4x teleport+mass AOE


Then maybe they should change "4x teleport+mass AOE"? If teleport is deemed such an exploity mechanic, then it could be easily limited by having a magic armor check when using on hostiles.
Posted By: TsunAmik Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 21/09/17 09:20 AM
Originally Posted by Luckmann
Originally Posted by TsunAmik
Guys, this change came to the game beause of EA, not despite it. There were simply too many players completely abusing wits for 1turn wins with things like glass cannon and elemental affinity... It was simply too easy, because amongst 4 characters, you can setup such a fucking mayhem that no ordinary enemy stould a fcking chance.

wits as stat should be rebalanced, thats for sure, but forcing combat order was a right thing to do
There's tons of different ways this could've been balanced without forcing a round robin system. It was absolutely not the right thing to do, because it strips the game of a relevant sub-system and cheapens combat pacing immensely, as well as ensure that neither the player nor the enemy can do proper environmental setups unless they already outnumber the opponent completely.

The easiest way to maintain a relevant system but still avoid consistent abuse would be to balance the enemies appropriately and add a per-round randomization element. The game already tracks round-to-round, only right now, it's completely useless. Instead, add a +/- 1d5 modifier to each participant on a per-round basis, possibly modified by effective level (at a rate of.. ~0,3 or 0,35 or so?).

Boom, initiative is now valuable but without being the be-all end-all of combat determinism, and it was achieved without putting combat into an anti-fun straight-jacket.
Originally Posted by TsunAmik
guys, this game is easy. It really isnt all that hard, so why complain that it got just tiny little bit harder by this change? It made things more interesting, and made good stat into mediocre stat... In bigger scope of things, its just negligible thing imo.
Hush, the adults are talking. This isn't about some arbitrary sense of difficulty.


Adults? This forum is filled with kids crying like lil bitches because somebody nerfed their attribute... get your shit together laugh
This game is already fucking complicated as it is, without your convoluted "solutions", but they still managed to somewhat balance it so well, that almost every reasonable class combination is able to complete classic difficulty, without being way too easy or way too hard.
Your crying that you can´t abuse the system more or that one of the stats is now only third best stat in the game instead of the most overpowered stat there ever was is getting little ridiculous.
Posted By: TsunAmik Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 21/09/17 09:27 AM
Originally Posted by aqa
Originally Posted by TsunAmik
otherwise there would be no defense against 4x teleport+mass AOE


Then maybe they should change "4x teleport+mass AOE"? If teleport is deemed such an exploity mechanic, then it could be easily limited by having a magic armor check when using on hostiles.

Why? Teleport is one of the most fun abilities in game (and as previous poster before you, fun is the most important nuh?), so why make it useless, when it can solved other way? In way that allows and supports reactivity, which is one of the most important parts of any game. And round-robin definitely supports reactivity.

All they should do, is rebalance those stats, wits should give little better benefit now (movespeed or more crit/hit chance), and all will be good smile
Posted By: aqa Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 21/09/17 09:55 AM
Originally Posted by TsunAmik
Originally Posted by aqa
Originally Posted by TsunAmik
otherwise there would be no defense against 4x teleport+mass AOE


Then maybe they should change "4x teleport+mass AOE"? If teleport is deemed such an exploity mechanic, then it could be easily limited by having a magic armor check when using on hostiles.

Why? Teleport is one of the most fun abilities in game (and as previous poster before you, fun is the most important nuh?), so why make it useless, when it can solved other way? In way that allows and supports reactivity, which is one of the most important parts of any game. And round-robin definitely supports reactivity.

All they should do, is rebalance those stats, wits should give little better benefit now (movespeed or more crit/hit chance), and all will be good smile


It wasn't me that said teleport + high initiative was a problem. I am only saying that if any ability is considered a problem, that ability should be changed and not some game mechanic that influences far more than just that ability.

And if you want to use the "fun" argument. Maybe someone else thought that using 4x teleport with high initiative was fun.
Posted By: Vibalist Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 21/09/17 12:36 PM
Originally Posted by TsunAmik

Adults? This forum is filled with kids crying like lil bitches because somebody nerfed their attribute... get your shit together laugh


Nerfing an attribute is one thing. Clearly there will always be people complaining about that stuff, if only because it affects their particular playstyle.

However, initiative isn't something that's connected to a certain class, playstyle or build, like, say, teleport. It's a core part of the gameplay. When they 'nerf' it (by making it pointless), they undermine the mechanics of their own game. That's why people 'bitch'.

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This game is already fucking complicated as it is, without your convoluted "solutions",


No, the game isn't very complicated. And even if it was, it certainly wouldn't become overcomplicated just by having initiative do what it's supposed to do. Luckmann's 'convoluted solution' is very simple: add a dice roll so getting to go first is a combination of init and luck. That's it.

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but they still managed to somewhat balance it so well, that almost every reasonable class combination is able to complete classic difficulty, without being way too easy or way too hard.


What a strange non sequitur. What does this have to do with the discussion? Are you saying that making wits/initiative useful again would break the balance? If so, they'd better come up with a new use for wits soon, because their current solution has only created more problems.

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Your crying that you can´t abuse the system more or that one of the stats is now only third best stat in the game instead of the most overpowered stat there ever was is getting little ridiculous.


No one is crying because they can't abuse the system (although that is certainly fun). We're 'crying' because a stat has been rendered useless by a fundamental change to the core game mechanics.

Wits is not the 'third best' stat currently. At best, it's marginally more useful than con.
Keep in mind that memory still serves a purpose for multiclasses and mages who need a wide variety of spells, while strength, intelligence and finesse are self explanatory.





Posted By: Ellezard Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 21/09/17 12:55 PM
He's not wrong about wit being the third or actually, 2nd best stat in the game.

If we're going to judge something on how strong and weak it is, we have to consider the role and how often you take them. Every build needs Wit in it even if you don't want the Ini. The increase crit rate is the 2nd thing to always go for on any damager including mages because the magical crit talent. The only one that doesn't need it at all is pure tank support.

Mem is just there when you want to be creative. Because fights often ends in only 2 to 3 turns once source spell is involved, having 15 different spells don't really help because you will never get to use most of them without a bunch of AP boost and turn reset. You will often limit yourself to a few core spells and when you consider that you can swap spells on demand, when you know the next encounter will block a certain element, you can just swap your skills out just for that fight.

Don't view Wit as Ini boost with seconday crit chance. View it as Crit chance with secondary ini boost and you will start to see why it's decent again. The ini is just there so that bosses post level 14 won't go first and just 100-0 someone on the spot. Some bosses will even have you go doing drugs and eating potion just to keep your ini above them. The easiest example is the level 20 source master in Act 2. You CAN kill him if you want to (and learn who he is) but if he goes first, expect to get wiped in a single turn.
Posted By: Stabbey Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 21/09/17 01:29 PM
Originally Posted by Ellezard
Don't view Wit as Ini boost with seconday crit chance. View it as Crit chance with secondary ini boost and you will start to see why it's decent again.


You obviously fail to see how utterly absurd and ridiculous that thought is.

There is no reasonable defense for stripping an attribute of the MAJORITY of its usefulness on Tactician difficulty which does not end in the conclusion that Tactician difficulty is broken and needs a complete rework from scratch.
Posted By: Kalrakh Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 21/09/17 01:42 PM
Originally Posted by Stabbey
Originally Posted by Ellezard
Don't view Wit as Ini boost with seconday crit chance. View it as Crit chance with secondary ini boost and you will start to see why it's decent again.


You obviously fail to see how utterly absurd and ridiculous that thought is.

There is no reasonable defense for stripping an attribute of the MAJORITY of its usefulness on Tactician difficulty which does not end in the conclusion that Tactician difficulty is broken and needs a complete rework from scratch.


It's not only on tactician like this but also on classic, as it seems. Did not really play so far, so can't tell.


There are only 4 stats, so being second best does not say much.

Str, Fin and Int are pretty much the same in different colors, so you can take them as one stat.

What is left is: Wits, Mem and Con, Con is obvious worse than Wits, because only damage is really important. And Mem is only situationel usefull, so can be left on the side. Being the second attribute has therefore no real meaning/value.


Posted By: Ellezard Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 21/09/17 01:58 PM
Originally Posted by Stabbey
Originally Posted by Ellezard
Don't view Wit as Ini boost with seconday crit chance. View it as Crit chance with secondary ini boost and you will start to see why it's decent again.


You obviously fail to see how utterly absurd and ridiculous that thought is.

There is no reasonable defense for stripping an attribute of the MAJORITY of its usefulness on Tactician difficulty which does not end in the conclusion that Tactician difficulty is broken and needs a complete rework from scratch.


If I am allowed to stack Ini and just go first on most of them, the conditions for fights like REd prince story would go from "Goddamit they keep reviving gotta find a way to control them" to "Hahaha just group them up and CC them on the first turn and laugh as I complete the fight objective".

Multi-action before enemies act has never been tactical. Time warp had costs and it was considered opasfk for allowing you to act too often before enemies get to act. If doubled the action is op then what is quadruple the action?

Timing, picking key targets and figuring out the right approach is the mindset of a tactical gameplay. The whole "Take turn" is so much better and if you're not making use of the "Delay action" button, you're not really playing the game in a tactical way. Most cheese no longer work after Act 2 and Act 3 anyway and those that work will involve actual exploits like "retreat and return for extra turns" that remove the challenge out of any combat.
Posted By: Stabbey Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 21/09/17 02:37 PM
Okay, so you are acknowledging that Larian did such a poor job balancing Tactician that they had to hardcode one of the primary attributes so it no longer does half its stated function. Good.

EDIT: This is one of the reasons people are complaining about Tactician, that it seems half-baked if stuff like that needs to be hard-coded. It's not what was promised and what people pledged for the Tactician stretch goal for.
Posted By: Ellezard Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 21/09/17 03:01 PM
I'm not acknowledging that making ini work like that is poor. I'm stating that not giving enemies a single turn is a poor design and every game that used that ends up having a clusterfk of a balance that min-maxes even harder for late game content.

If the old "Your entire team all takes a turn first" makes a return, it should be an explorer mode thing. The game even designed half of Act 2 and Act 3 that are supposed to be more challenging with the take-turn mechanic in mind.

People needs to learn to adapt instead of hoping that everything will return to the easier time. Instead of just reading and complaining, they should at least try the thing first and take advice from other. The game is made to appeal to the people, not to a few entitled gamers.
Posted By: Stabbey Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 21/09/17 03:17 PM
Originally Posted by Ellezard
I'm not acknowledging that making ini work like that is poor.


Wrong. You already did. You said it implicitly when you said that Larian had to do it that way otherwise the game would be too easy. That means that Larian did a poor job with design and added in that ugly hardcoded cap to compensate.


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I'm stating that not giving enemies a single turn is a poor design and every game that used that ends up having a clusterfk of a balance that min-maxes even harder for late game content.


Strawman. No one is saying no enemies should ever have a turn ever. There are other ways Larian could have improved it. It is in fact their job to figure that out. It's what people paid for the Tactician mode stretch goal, in fact.

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If the old "Your entire team all takes a turn first" makes a return, it should be an explorer mode thing.


Wow, how fucking elitest of you. What business is it of yours how other people play? As far as I can tell, you haven't even played the release version of D:OS 2 on Classic? If you can't stop yourself from being a compulsive wits-maxer, that's your own problem.

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People needs to learn to adapt instead of hoping that everything will return to the easier time. Instead of just reading and complaining, they should at least try the thing first and take advice from other. The game is made to appeal to the people, not to a few entitled gamers.


No, YOU need to learn that the world does not revolve around you and only you and only YOUR opinion matters. You need to learn that not everyone who disagrees with you is a whining incompetent who hates challenge.
Posted By: Ellezard Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 21/09/17 03:45 PM
I acknowledge that they need to do such a thing and make it a take-turn for the sake of the game challenge and I compliment them for that. I'm already used to many turn-based game going with this approach anyway to make their games more active and challenging.

But you decide to use my statement to support your claims that Larian fail at designing, completely twisting my intention around.

You stated multiple time you refuse to play tactician and that it's an unfun mode for people who want to exploits and have no fun. If they enjoy it, you just assume they are min-maxing and cheating exploiters who has poor taste in gaming along with the rest of the whiners.

There are so many builds now that have been confirmed to work in Tactician without even min-maxing as much as I do. How about you get out of you bubble and actually try them out first? Don't come up with 50 excuses why you will not play the mode fearing that you are actually the one killing your own enjoyment.
Posted By: rumpelstilskin Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 21/09/17 04:18 PM
Originally Posted by Ellezard
Every build needs Wit in it even if you don't want the Ini. The increase crit rate is the 2nd thing to always go for on any damager including mages because the magical crit talent.


you keep saying that, but i'm not sure i understand the logic. +1% chance of getting 150% damage is just +0.5% damage on average, while every increase in your main damage stat gives 5%. it can be more important in systems with armor thresholds, when only critical damage gets through in some cases for instance, but in DOS2 it's not like that.
Posted By: Terodil Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 21/09/17 04:23 PM
I'd just like to point out two things:

1. The game is not only about end-game when you are overflowing with points. It's also about the early stages of the game when attributes and abilities are scarce and you really think about every single point you distribute. In those stages, at least, wits is practically worthless in combat. The few points crit% make no meaningful difference, whereas combat order does, a lot. (I still think that the 'detect hidden' part of wits is quite valuable, though, and serves as a consolation prize.)

2. In the same vein, you cannot only consider the attributes by themselves, you have to consider opportunity costs as well. If you put a point into your what other games call primary attribute (INT, STR, FIN), then you get a 5% or whatever flat damage increase. If you put said point into WIT instead, you relinquish that damage bonus in favour of something else. Except, in this case, the 'something else' is, for all intents and purposes, 'nothing', because initiative does not have any kind of meaningful impact on combat situations.

The question for a game designer, imho, really is if you just want to consider WIT as a second way to increase damage (via crit), or if you want it to do something else, e.g. offer increased tactical options. Larian looks to have originally wanted to go for the second, which I also find the (much) better choice, but then got cold feet, tried to backpedal to the first and got WIT stuck in a very unfortunate position where it does neither to a significant degree, making it a useless stat for all except one character in the party.

I find it a pity that the 'increase tactical options' choice (which you get, again, in exchange for significant damage boosts that you can no longer invest in) came out so poor in a game that prides itself (rightfully, I may add) on inventiveness and creativity. Foregoing brawn for cleverness in this context should be a choice that is attractive and valid, not a surefire way to gimp yourself because the game mechanics nullify any point investment by overwriting any kind of battle order with a round-robin system.
Posted By: Ellezard Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 21/09/17 04:51 PM
Originally Posted by rumpelstilskin
Originally Posted by Ellezard
Every build needs Wit in it even if you don't want the Ini. The increase crit rate is the 2nd thing to always go for on any damager including mages because the magical crit talent.


you keep saying that, but i'm not sure i understand the logic. +1% chance of getting 150% damage is just +0.5% damage on average, while every increase in your main damage stat gives 5%. it can be more important in systems with armor thresholds, when only critical damage gets through in some cases for instance, but in DOS2 it's not like that.


Stat cap at +30. You can't invest more than 15 level into Dex/Int/Fin. You're stuck getting Wit anyway.

And I already did the math. If you take probability into account, after a certain point, you are more likely to deal more damage + wit than pure Str especially since you can boost Str with gear easily (Frame of power on a tier 4 rune is + 3 str on every body part). I have 65 str on my red prince now for +275% with +50 from weapon for 325%. Even if it does go up by 5%, going from 325 to 330 is only a 1.5% increase, not 5%.

And in a real game situation, a crit can potentially save you 2 AP if it lands especially on stuff like "Overpower". Due to lack of resist, you can easily calculate how much damage you need on your physical hit to kill most enemies and then start getting crit chance up instead of damage. If it already takes 2 hits to kill, chance is, another 20 str won't reduce the amount of hit but another 20 wit will save you 2 ap every 5 hits.
Posted By: Luckmann Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 21/09/17 06:11 PM
Originally Posted by Ellezard
Stat cap at +30. You can't invest more than 15 level into Dex/Int/Fin. You're stuck getting Wit anyway.


I may respond to this further tomorrow, but let's be clear here; the cap is at +30, for a total of 40. And reasonably, at least a few points go into Memory.

Sure, it's entirely possible to do a build without Memory, and it's entirely possible to do a build that doesn't hedge at all and that only puts points into a single damage-boosting stat, and that only ever use the base Memory because it's strictly not necessary for more. But such build is entirely a min-max outlier.

It is by no means a reasonable default upon which to base game balance or even a meaningful argument on. But more to the point, the fact is that even by your own argument, the only reason to go for Wits would be because there's literally no-where else to put points that would be meaningful.

That is, honestly, a terrible defense, and says more about the sorry state of the Attributes and their synergies (or rather, lack thereof) than it does for the practical usefulness of Wits.

And furthermore, the main issue of the Initiative issue and the round robin turns doesn't concern Wits at all, and we shouldn't stare ourselves blind on that. The fact that Wits is made near-useless due to the complete uselessness of Initiative is secondary to the mechanical effects it has, as well as the effects it has on things like combat pacing or tactics (or rather, again, lack thereof).

Hell, I'd say that the fact that there's tons of items with Initiative modifiers, now useless, or the fact that the central advantage of being Human is simply gone, takes by far precedence of the fact that Wits becomes a lackluster attribute in an array of fundamentally lackluster attributes. And again, that is still far from the central issue at hand, because Wits could always be buffed, but the fundamental problems of neutered Initiative and the round-robin turn system would still remain, because it has nothing to do with Wits in itself.

Going down that route moves the argument away from the core issues and instead makes it seem like it's a matter of Wits sucking or not. Wits could add +20% critical chance and +10 initiative per rank, and Initiative would still be busted and the round robin system would still be a travesty.
Posted By: Zherot Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 21/09/17 06:11 PM
Originally Posted by Stabbey
Originally Posted by Ellezard
I'm not acknowledging that making ini work like that is poor.


Wrong. You already did. You said it implicitly when you said that Larian had to do it that way otherwise the game would be too easy. That means that Larian did a poor job with design and added in that ugly hardcoded cap to compensate.


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I'm stating that not giving enemies a single turn is a poor design and every game that used that ends up having a clusterfk of a balance that min-maxes even harder for late game content.


Strawman. No one is saying no enemies should ever have a turn ever. There are other ways Larian could have improved it. It is in fact their job to figure that out. It's what people paid for the Tactician mode stretch goal, in fact.

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If the old "Your entire team all takes a turn first" makes a return, it should be an explorer mode thing.


Wow, how fucking elitest of you. What business is it of yours how other people play? As far as I can tell, you haven't even played the release version of D:OS 2 on Classic? If you can't stop yourself from being a compulsive wits-maxer, that's your own problem.

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People needs to learn to adapt instead of hoping that everything will return to the easier time. Instead of just reading and complaining, they should at least try the thing first and take advice from other. The game is made to appeal to the people, not to a few entitled gamers.


No, YOU need to learn that the world does not revolve around you and only you and only YOUR opinion matters. You need to learn that not everyone who disagrees with you is a whining incompetent who hates challenge.


REKT.

Posted By: Kilgrow Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 21/09/17 07:07 PM
What level of wits do you need to reveal all secrets and traps? That the new max needed?
Posted By: Luckmann Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 21/09/17 07:36 PM
Originally Posted by Stabbey
Originally Posted by Ellezard
I'm not acknowledging that making ini work like that is poor.


Wrong. You already did. You said it implicitly when you said that Larian had to do it that way otherwise the game would be too easy. That means that Larian did a poor job with design and added in that ugly hardcoded cap to compensate.


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I'm stating that not giving enemies a single turn is a poor design and every game that used that ends up having a clusterfk of a balance that min-maxes even harder for late game content.


Strawman. No one is saying no enemies should ever have a turn ever. There are other ways Larian could have improved it. It is in fact their job to figure that out. It's what people paid for the Tactician mode stretch goal, in fact.

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If the old "Your entire team all takes a turn first" makes a return, it should be an explorer mode thing.


Wow, how fucking elitest of you. What business is it of yours how other people play? As far as I can tell, you haven't even played the release version of D:OS 2 on Classic? If you can't stop yourself from being a compulsive wits-maxer, that's your own problem.

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People needs to learn to adapt instead of hoping that everything will return to the easier time. Instead of just reading and complaining, they should at least try the thing first and take advice from other. The game is made to appeal to the people, not to a few entitled gamers.


No, YOU need to learn that the world does not revolve around you and only you and only YOUR opinion matters. You need to learn that not everyone who disagrees with you is a whining incompetent who hates challenge.
10/10, Stabbey.

I rate this post Friendly. [Linked Image]
Posted By: Stabbey Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 21/09/17 07:39 PM
Originally Posted by Ellezard
I acknowledge that they need to do such a thing and make it a take-turn for the sake of the game challenge and I compliment them for that. I'm already used to many turn-based game going with this approach anyway to make their games more active and challenging.



In which case, it's still poor design because it has a stat which doesn't do the things it says it does. If Larian really wants to mandate Enemy-Ally turn order, it should be for all difficulties and the Wits stat should be removed or severely changed. Just deleting it for the highest difficulty isn't Tactician.

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But you decide to use my statement to support your claims that Larian fail at designing, completely twisting my intention around.


No twisting needed. Larian had to break a stat for one difficulty mode to make it work. It's hard to see how that is not an indication of poor design.


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There are so many builds now that have been confirmed to work in Tactician without even min-maxing as much as I do. How about you get out of you bubble and actually try them out first? Don't come up with 50 excuses why you will not play the mode fearing that you are actually the one killing your own enjoyment.


I'm not interested in a difficulty level which is essentially just inflating health on enemies. That's boring. A lot of people have the exact same complaint, and those who defend Tactician mode continue to not understand that no matter how many times we repeat it.
Posted By: Ellezard Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 21/09/17 07:48 PM
It always come down to the same thing.

"Wit is weak due to round robin since Ini is useless."

It always come back to this claim and no matter how much someone will bring up that Round Robin is much more challenging and better designed than "High Ini First Serve", it will always come down to "Larian can think of something then" without offering a proper solution that won't go back to "Stack INI and act 4x in a row, completely deleting the AI".

Most of the whole "ini stacking is good" all comes from the experience with EA. Having been to Act 3, if Ini was a thing, every build must have high Wit because it becomes a game of "Who shoot the source spell first". Easy example, Red PRince story last fight against the other lizard. They have stealth, decent ini and instakilling Arrow storm. Without round robin, If you don't have ini, you die. What's the counter? Get more ini than and have Evasive aura up or you die. In the end, it all comes down to "Stack ini battle" more than making a decent build.

That's why Round robin is good, at least it frees you from having to have wit in every build so you get to play. At least it allows you to replenish your armor with Mend armor and Soothing cold in the middle of all the attack so high ini enemies don't outright wipe your group and high ini team comp don't outright shut down 80% of the enemy team on t1. You already have high crit chance anyway so most of the time, you aren't losing any damage if you crit with high ini build compared to high fin/str.

High ini competition is bad and it gets boring real quick. You only enjoy it most of the time because you are blinded by the amount of power you have against enemies and with that taken away, no wonder most of the complaints have to include how they feel weak compared to the enemies. They only hate round robin because it forces them to actually play well and that plans can actually go wrong now if they were pulled out of their ass in 10 seconds.

Don't hate the changes just because it feels different. Play the game until a certain amount to see the extend of the effect the changes bring along instead of just saying "DURING MY TIME IN EA"
Posted By: Kalrakh Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 21/09/17 08:12 PM
Honestly, I understand why they did the Turn-order stuff and I support it, but in that case take away Initiative from Wits. Solve it different, but don't say Wits influences Turn-order if it does is only in a slight way. This is missleading and bad design. Making it, that players go always first and let them write down, in which order they characters should act during a fight or whatever, having to put points into iniative to keep your team in order, in case of items ruining the order is just aweful. And Wits being mainly a secondary dump attribute after you maxed the first one is aweful as well.

Forcing everyone to play on crit damage and poor design as well, mainly mages should be crit independet, now it seems savage sortilege or how its named is just a must have trait for mages like Backstabbing was for Rogue.
Posted By: GreatGuardsman Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 21/09/17 09:35 PM
"It always come down to the same thing."

That's a very specific and self-serving way to frame the argument; and it betrays the fact that aspects of a game don't exist in a vacuum to one another.

Initiative is a crucial part of Wit's existence, but also a key point in the design and balance of character development, combat design, equipment selection, and so on. Initiative isn't solely generated by Wits, but it makes up a large portion of the attribute's value, especially early on in the game when crit chance and multipliers are scarce to nonexistant.

I don't understand why you fixate on this single attribute and point. If Initiative were in its original, more sensible state then there would be a greater depth to character building and equipment selection than we see now; with Wit's Initiative bonus making for an alluring option early on as an initiative booster and a long-term investment rather than a raw damage pump stat for after you've exhausted your main combat attribute.

The fact that encounters are unbalanced with Initiative proper isn't a point in favor of Round-Robin, but rather (as others have stated in this thread) show what a flimsy bandaid it is for encounter design and implementation. If Bosses are decided in one-turn rushes and powerful skills dominate encounters then perhaps Initiative isn't the culprit.

Initiative and Wits are also not just relegated to Player Characters, but are also a part of the makeup for the many foes we encounter throughout the game-- Round Robin not only robs players of build variety and options, but streamlines those same facets from the original designer's and future content creator's hands. The ability to create creatures balanced or fixated around certain speeds and making that an obstacle or feature of enemies, encounters, and equipment is all thrown out the window without a system that actually utilizes the mechanic in any meaningful way.

Those are just my two cents, though. I didn't play in the Early Access but I own every game in the franchise and played OS1/OS1:EE extensively, so I'd like to think I'm not talking out of my ass here.
Posted By: Stabbey Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 21/09/17 11:43 PM
Originally Posted by Ellezard
It always come down to the same thing.

"Wit is weak due to round robin since Ini is useless."

It always come back to this claim and no matter how much someone will bring up that Round Robin is much more challenging and better designed than "High Ini First Serve"


So Initiative being useless is compensating because players going first is an instant easy win, but NEITHER of those are design flaws? Sorry, but that statement is inherently contradictory. At least one, if not both must be a design flaw.

If the enemies always have to go in round robin because otherwise the players will always stomp them, that is a design flaw. Crippling Wits/Initiative to compensate for that problem is, as Great Guardsman puts it, a bandage on the deeper problem.


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it will always come down to "Larian can think of something then" without offering a proper solution that won't go back to "Stack INI and act 4x in a row, completely deleting the AI".



Stretch Goals

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$700,000 Stretch Goal: Strategist Mode

Akin to Divinity: Original Sin- Enhanced Edition's Tactician Mode, Original Sin 2 will feature a brand new difficulty called Strategist Mode. Rest assured this difficulty tier will consist of much more than a simple numbers game. Yes, your enemies will hit harder, but that is far from all! Each and every fight in the game will be redesigned for Strategist Mode so that enemies are smarter, often come in greater numbers and use a host of skills and tactics they won't use in lower difficulty modes. If we reach this stretch goal, the fights in Original Sin 2 will receive this epic treatment from the get-go.


I kinda think that when a company is literally given money to do a thing, that it IS that company's job to actually do the thing. But I'm silly that way.

You want some ideas? Sure. I won't promise they're all winners, because I've only had a couple hours and $0 to work on them, but here's a couple:

1) Maximum caps on WIT per level, so you can only put points into it if it is below the cap. Bonuses from buffs and gear can exceed the cap. Enemies of the same level have Init ranges which stretch from below to a bit above the cap, depending on the enemy. Thus the designer can guarantee that not all players will go first.

2) Initiative gets a dice roll component added to it before a fight starts. This varies based on difficulty. So say Players get to roll 1d6 added to their initiative, no matter what difficulty level. On Explorer, enemies get a 1d4 added to their Initiative, on Classic they get 1d6, the same as players, and on Tactician, they get 1d8 or even 1d10. Thus players are not guaranteed to go first, and the higher the difficulty, the larger the advantage enemies get. This could be displayed in the UI as Initiative 22 (23-28)

If I had a year and a team I could probably some up with more.

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High ini competition is bad and it gets boring real quick. You only enjoy it most of the time because you are blinded by the amount of power you have against enemies


I don't have a high initiative composition and my team doesn't all go first. I've got better things to put my attribute points into at the moment.

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and with that taken away, no wonder most of the complaints have to include how they feel weak compared to the enemies. They only hate round robin because it forces them to actually play well and that plans can actually go wrong now if they were pulled out of their ass in 10 seconds.


Another statement suggesting that the only reason all others who do not like the system is that they must be incompetent idiots. That's the thing that I really find most irritating.


Originally Posted by GreatGuardsman
The fact that encounters are unbalanced with Initiative proper isn't a point in favor of Round-Robin, but rather (as others have stated in this thread) show what a flimsy bandaid it is for encounter design and implementation. If Bosses are decided in one-turn rushes and powerful skills dominate encounters then perhaps Initiative isn't the culprit.

Initiative and Wits are also not just relegated to Player Characters, but are also a part of the makeup for the many foes we encounter throughout the game-- Round Robin not only robs players of build variety and options, but streamlines those same facets from the original designer's and future content creator's hands. The ability to create creatures balanced or fixated around certain speeds and making that an obstacle or feature of enemies, encounters, and equipment is all thrown out the window without a system that actually utilizes the mechanic in any meaningful way.


I only quoted part of it, but this whole post is very good.
Posted By: Hassat Hunter Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 22/09/17 12:26 AM
Eh, I think that the whole armor-system is what bite D:OS2 in the back.
It's good for PvP. But D:OS2 isn't a PvP game. It's a 100H SP-game. For that, it sucks balls.

And instead, Larian keeps trying to wurm themselves into ways to make this broken system work, whatever possible, even if collatoral damage is done doing it.

I wasn't even aware this was happening in the game, and it sounds INANE. There's an initiative value in the game. Why would anyone assume it wouldn't work. Cause the developers *broke* it. Intentionally? Who would ever think that would happen? Nobody would expect this.

If being bound to wits was so bad since all other abilities are not much to write home about (really, +5% damage is the opposite of thrilling, all again done to suit PvP over a good SP-experience *sigh*) why not a combat ability. There's plenty of good alternatives there, unlike the boring-to-death abilities. And then make it just highest initiative is a go for the entire order. Have skills or powers that can boost or harm initiative. Make it dynamic. Not just throw it out the window.

Really, Larian should be glad that their game is good in non-Combat since the Combat is a mess. I thought that way in Early Access hoping they fixed it, and I haven't gotten far (sadly enough) but all I hear here they just made it even worse. And that's a shame since D:OS1 combat was great fun. D:OS2 in EA with the armor? Not so much. Wasn't very promosing the only way they could think to add a challenge to stunlock was to extremely overpower (like +5 levels) the opponents like that end-fight (seriously, I had to massively cheese there and it was the sheer opposite of anything resembling fun) and I would have expected them to massively improve on that. Dissapointed to hear the opposite.

Please, next time you add PvP to your game, don't let it ruin the SP-experience by over-tweaking to compensate for that. It's not good for a lenghty SP (or co-op) experience. Really.
Posted By: Ellezard Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 22/09/17 12:35 AM
When you have to suggest something like adding RNG and stat limitation, you lose the right to say anything about being tactical.

You could have suggested for a better stage design that involve interaction with objects to beat a fight while infinite respawn happen, or to come up with new abilities alter ini, like a cheap ini version of Adrenaline rush with Ini penalty on expiration.

Maybe make Ini give a bonus like first turn free movement up to x meter based on ini for better planning without The Pawn?

Did you even consider that super long and cheap wit buff exists, like the drug den in Act 2?

Get to at least later half of Act 2 or even play through Act 3 first and the strength of round robin will become more obvious. First come first serve has always been a bane of tactical gameplay because it results in even more bloated stat with multiple final forms just to guarantee the enemy won't die straight away. Stat will always be easy to stack and that's why strategy game will try to come up with some sort of diminishing return for them and just go real-time to avoid the problem caused by the nature of turn-based combat because stat like ini is so flat it's just "Higher than X at level Y = OP".

Just look at it from a level designer perspective. How are you going to design a stage and combat that won't get rekt in turn 1 by wit stacker in an FCFS system? Place them so far apart they cant' be targeted on turn 1? Then they can't target back either. Give all of them grounded? Then that just goes to show you have no idea what to do with teleport. Round Robin gets rid of all those problem and it's why modern turn-based game like Wakfu reworked the ini system and went with Round Robin during its development with ini being used for some other bonus instead.

Play through the game first to see what really changes before making a comment. Bias first impression never works well like how I trashed Tactical on the first day too.
Posted By: Kalrakh Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 22/09/17 01:13 AM
You know, being forced to have a back up plan is more tactical, than just playing puzzle with armor types. Fights in D:OS2 are missing a lot of tension, because there is hardly anything that can ruin your tactic. Hardly anything that forces you to improvise, there is more like chess or playing a puzzle.

The warrior sees an opponent on the other side of fire. In D:OS crossing fire was always risky, because you could fail to resist, in D:OS2 you just check your armor: "Oh, still enough, I will just walk through it. Who cares."

Every kind of CC had the probability to fail, therefore casting them had always this kind of tension: will it work or not? Usind a charme arrow and succeeding felt great, failing felt bad, now it feels nothing, because you know it would work. Probability is kind of the core of most RPGs and makes battle feel more organic and alive.

Having such a issue with 'probability to fail' seems to show more an inability to cope with the unpredictable.

Some like chess, some don't, but liking RNG has nothing to do, with if a opinion about RNG sucks or not. It is the delta of randomness that matters.


Just give everyone an innate initiative according to their race/type, if being able to maximise Initiative is to strong. Or just remove every kind of hard cc, if hard is not balancable or even remove skills like teleport, if they are just to op. Teleport makes mazes kind of useless and easy to trick and in fights in even more unbalanced. Teleporting someone into lava is as broken as getting teleported into lava sucks.
Posted By: Terodil Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 22/09/17 01:29 AM
The longer I read the (excellent btw) posts here the more I get the feeling that it is indeed the offensively-used teleport that is the main problem here.

The problem I have with wits, initiative, and RNG is the following: it massively reduces the way you can build and play your character in the RPG.

You want to play an agile and fast melee, hit-and-run style: you need speed, finesse weapons, and preferably murder backline mages. You can zip across the battlefield, but you also better not be there any more when that hulking lumbering dude with the 2h axe reaches his mage friend that you just splattered against the wall.

You want to play a cannon mage: you need good positioning, armor spells and a friend to keep you in the clear with hamstrings etc. when that pesky enemy rogue tries to splatter you against the wall. You also need intelligence to overcome any resistance enemies may put up.

etc. etc.

Removing initiative voids all these choices. My rogue is no faster or more agile than the plate wearer (barring skill choices, of course, but then the warrior has access to his own versions of those too). My mage is no slower than the enemy rogue either. All that means that there is no trade-off, and thus no choice, of adaptability and speed vs. defenses and superior firepower.

Also, making status effects purely RNG based (i.e. a flat percentage chance) is stupid, something I really disliked in D:OS1. Skill and defense go out of the window that way. The D&D way of spell resistance and saving throws rewarded investments so much better, for example, even if I have always had issues with its binary nature and scaling. -- But it needn't be that complicated: Like stabbey's (I think it was, apologies if not) suggestion of rolling some kind of dice into the initiative calculation, you could have a resistance value, an attack value determined by int, and a random element to shake things up. Attack + rng > resistance? Status effect is applied, otherwise it fails and only the damage portion is calculated as per status quo.

A character with 10 int and one point in hydro should not have the same chance of freezing an enemy as a character with 24 int and 10 points in hydro, given the same defensive stats on said enemy. That's just mindboggingly bad game design.
Posted By: Ellezard Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 22/09/17 01:33 AM
If they're going to add RNG to the game then they need to make sure the game is covered in RNG so that any action can be come a bad decision. Divinity only has 1 major combat RNG being the dodge-hit rate and 1 minor RNG being the freezing floor that works almost every time anyway.

So in a game with minimal RNG, if you want to add changes that are indirect but also consistent. You can't add RNG because with so little RNG being presented, the players will just do whatever they can to completely eliminate the RNG and enjoy the profit that comes with it.

It's like imagine if Blitz attack is changed to hit 1-3 targets with 50% damage increase if it hits only one target. People will just use it as a single-target attack spell instead of gap closing.
Posted By: Stabbey Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 22/09/17 01:35 AM
Originally Posted by Ellezard
When you have to suggest something like adding RNG and stat limitation, you lose the right to say anything about being tactical.


I already said that the ideas weren't winners, but then again, I didn't spend $100,000, a year and had a team working on them either. Larian did, what's their excuse for this ridiculousness?

Don't you tell me I have no right to say anything.
Posted By: Ellezard Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 22/09/17 01:36 AM
Originally Posted by Stabbey

I already said that the ideas weren't winners, but then again, I didn't spend $100,000, a year and had a team working on them either. Larian did, what's their excuse for this ridiculousness?

Don't you tell me I have no right to say anything.


Better level design.
Better balance design.
Appeal to modern turn-based market players.
etc.etc.

Lots to go on really.

FCFS Turn-based is outdated.
Posted By: Terodil Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 22/09/17 01:40 AM
Originally Posted by Ellezard
Better level design.
Better balance design.


Of course. That applies to all games and doesn't really say much either way.

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FCFS Turn-based is outdated.


Come again? And round-robin is the new kid on the block? (By the way, it's not FCFS. It's 'the guy that invested a lot into being able to go first goes first, the guy that invested least goes last'.)
Posted By: Ghatt Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 22/09/17 02:02 AM
When did die rolls become such a bad thing in rpgs? I've always enjoyed rolling dice in tabletop rpgs and I certainly don't mind them in crpgs either. I'd much rather have a die roll with my character's applicable bonuses determine something like saving throws than some system that's 100% or 0% as it completely removes the fun that comes along with chance happenstances and chance is part of the fun. The better your character is, the better your odds become. It's not like it's a completely random roll, but by making an all or nothing system you're losing that element.

On topic, I'd rather they kept the initiative system from DOS 1.
Posted By: SniperHF Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 22/09/17 04:02 AM
I hadn't been following this whole saga too closely, but after reading the thread and my own experience playing/modding I have to agree the initiative system is pretty terrible.

Originally Posted by Terodil


Come again? And round-robin is the new kid on the block? (By the way, it's not FCFS. It's 'the guy that invested a lot into being able to go first goes first, the guy that invested least goes last'.)


The funny thing about the "outdated" argument is some people would say that about turn based combat itself.

Posted By: Hiver Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 22/09/17 05:10 AM
Originally Posted by Ghatt
When did die rolls become such a bad thing in rpgs?


Ever since mass market imbeciles were invited in.

To them a chance of achieving something at 80% or 90% or any % is "random" - as if its completely chaotically random. And all that fuels that moronic nonsense is pathetic deranged butthurt their attack missed sometimes or spell didnt hit.

Because in their heads they are still playing action games where player reactions override characters skills - and the devs are fucking listening to that because it brings them more fucking money. Or so they think!

Hence, DOS2 main mechanics as an attempt to have a cake and eat it too.

It never worked and it never will.
Decades of decline were the result before, and even now in this "Renaissance" of "old school Turn based RPGs" the biggest kickstarter successes are trying to worm in more "action" by removing as much of "RNG" as they can - thus directly reducing character skills influence on the gameplay itself - which make the game less of an RPG and more of a hybrid action RPG or, in more extreme cases, action games with some RPG mechanics.

Then even in a TB game you get the mechanics such as Hard CC with 100% chance to succeed, and then you get binary armors that prevent any "RNG" from disturbing the imbeciles that you need to whack off to win and you get the removal of initiative and ALL of its effects on the gameplay - because its not fucking binary enough!

The you get insane deranged proclamations such as this :

"When you have to suggest something like adding "RNG" and stat limitation, you lose the right to say anything about being tactical."

And what was the one before? That "You cannot expect "insane" tactical options in a ... Turn based game"?
(the insane part is a idiotic strawman woven into an absurdity)


Posted By: Kalrakh Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 22/09/17 05:49 AM
Originally Posted by Terodil
Also, making status effects purely RNG based (i.e. a flat percentage chance) is stupid, something I really disliked in D:OS1. Skill and defense go out of the window that way. The D&D way of spell resistance and saving throws rewarded investments so much better, for example, even if I have always had issues with its binary nature and scaling.


Did you play the first game?

RNG with Status effects WAS dice rolling in D:OS1. You rolled your chance to stun and the enemie rolled his chance to resist. Better stats and your chance to succeed was higher, debuff your enemie to increase the chance to succeed even further, like make him wet. Increase your own bodybuilding/Will power to increase your own chances of resisting in return.


Also saying there is hardly any RNG in the game is stupid:
- Doing max or minimum damage is RNG
- Doing critical damage is even more RNG, except if you raged to do it
- Hitting is RNG
- Dodging is RNG to reduce Hit chance even further
- Looting is mostly RNG
- Critical looting with Lucky Charme is even more RNG
- Quest rewards are often RNG aswell, like the well
- Items offered by a trader are mostly RNG too
- Item modifications are so heavily RNG that you can have a Str-Weapon that will give you + on Int and therefore will be totally useless

Not sure, if I forgot something, but saying there is hardly any RNG left is just stupid.
Posted By: Ellezard Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 22/09/17 07:31 AM
The Rng is low even with those factors as they are heavily limited or offer way to get around it.

1) The damage range isn't large so even if you hit min or max, you don't feel like you gain too much or lose much. You can still estimate if it will kill nearly every time and is given the information on how tanky stuffs are from the get-go with Loremaster so you can always calculate it.

2) Hit rate starts off really high making it really consistent and you can even get + accuracy gear. Most high level weapon even offer it to make the base accuracy 100% instead and enemies will need ton of dodging to even compete with it. But even then, even if they do have dodge rate, Floor-AoE hit rate is 100% at all time if it's enough to knock them down.

3) Every spell that has dodge included has a really ridiculous scaling that it completely negate the attack almost 100% of the time, making it very consistent. Most enemies in the late game also opt for magic anyway to not miss and just hit you, which is why LEadership is ridiculously strong with its magic resist.

4) On the subject of loot in general, lucky charm isn't RNG heavy because of how often it triggers and that it needs levels to be useful else you will just get something like 1k gold that is worthless. It's so consistent at guaranteeing you that you will get stuff after you reach a certain level on it. The area you use it in also guarantee what level you will get.

Traders also have a set of legendaries/divine they always sell so if you visit them on level up on or restock, you are almost guaranteed to get a legendary/divine of the type you want.

Legendaries and Divines of a certain name will only appear at a certain level so if you know at what level a certain legendaries will appears, you can go to the right npc and get it. My weapon legendaries and divine are always updated in act 2 because of this with minimal luck involved once I find out who sells the 2h and crossbow legendaries.

5) For rune, Frame of Power guarantee +str on everything. The only one I annoying is Frame of Mystic but I used up all my frames on various resist rune before I got the chance to test if stat bonuses are always the same or not based on the type of rune being upgraded.

So the only RNG in the game that players has the least control on is just crit. Everything else only give off a fake RNG feel because it has % attached to it or because some of the informations are hidden. Even then, Crit becomes less RNG heavy thanks to flame rune + late game gear giving you like 3 slots to spec for crit chance. You get less armour that way but very consistent crit chance, easily reaching 100% with some wit.
Posted By: Akka Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 22/09/17 08:16 AM
Originally Posted by Kalrakh
People needs to learn to adapt instead of hoping that everything will return to the easier time.

You're going to have to explain me how "they had to change the very way this stat works to balance, which hints as a design problem" becomes "I don't want to adapt and I want things to become easier !", because I really don't see any form of logical link between the two.
Posted By: Akka Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 22/09/17 08:48 AM
Originally Posted by Ellezard
When you have to suggest something like adding RNG and stat limitation, you lose the right to say anything about being tactical.

What kind of idiotic argument is that ?
Since when have tactics required completely predictable outcomes ?
In fact, real-world tactics are about battles, and battles are among the LEAST predictable things to happen. Tactics are precisely a tool to try to improve your odds. Saying you can't have tactics with randomness is downright stupid.
Posted By: Ellezard Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 22/09/17 09:14 AM
Unpredictable element in battles come from your enemy taking actions, not from RNG where you go into a fight with a half loaded revolver, expecting it to be a russian roulette. When you go into a fight with a revolver, you darn well do everything to make sure the gun never jam and load all the bullets into it. To do the opposite is just idiotic.

This is something that was brought in my the new Ini. Enemies taking action and making even well crafted plan fail unless you find a way to remove this uncertainty with good delayed turn or targeting the right enemies.

Don't give people jammed and half reloaded revolver if you want a tactical fight.
Posted By: kaltorak Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 22/09/17 09:21 AM
The only good thing about this change Larian did is having free respecs to "fix" it.

/sarcasm

Initiative was a fun stat. Get your team to think on a better solution than just removing it.
Posted By: Kalrakh Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 22/09/17 09:27 AM
So back to comparing apple with pears? A revolver does not CC, a revolver does damage only. A revolver is like shooting with your crossbow, using Shocking touch on the other hand is like using a Taser. It is likely, that your Taser will stun the enemie, but there is also the slight chance, that he can withstand. Same goes for a hook to the chin or if you shoot somebody into his leg, you can't predict how well you aimed and how heavily it will influence him.

Posted By: Terodil Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 22/09/17 09:31 AM
@Kalrakh: Thanks for pointing out the rolling on status effects in D:OS1. I stand corrected. In fact, that system then is much closer to what I'd prefer than what we have now. smile

@Ellezard: I'm confused. On the one hand you seem to be arguing in favour of a larger tactical element, yet at the same time you decry initiative as highly untactical. Why, do you think, did the introduction of ranged units, mounted units etc. each have such a profound impact on battlefield tactics? Yet somehow you'd argue that cavallery is not allowed to move any faster than foot soldiers because it turns cavallery into an "I-WIN"-unit? Wut?

That whole argument to me feels like writing a new ruleset for triathlon. You may increase shooting accuracy as much as you like, because that's what makes a good competitor, but both swim speed and running speed are limited to the slowest of the pack because... they allow you to win the triathlon. (!?)
Posted By: Ellezard Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 22/09/17 09:42 AM
IT wasn't even a comparison about damage and CC. It's about going into a battle with as little unpredictable element as possible and always preparing for it. Do you call a duel with half-loaded revolver a proper duel?

Tactician are not known for their RNG. They are known for their analysis and predictions to keep risks to the minimum while maximizing the reward. The famous story of Zhuge Liang playing his gupin in the Empty Fort strategy and force an enemy to retreat using his fame as a tool is still told everywhere as what a tactician is truly like. He didn't go up there with a "1% chance to terrify" gupin.

If someone wants RNG, they can just go play a card game. Every tactic game that has RNG all have the same kind of meta build, dedicated to removing the RNG element. Just look at Pillars of Eternity. The fight is all about casting Immunity to CC (So no random BS instalock) and then casting a bunch of + accuracy and - deflect just so you get a major boost on every dice roll and remove the chance of missing almost entirely.

If we're going to force people to play low RNG build, just remove them so players aren't forced to dedicated half of their build to remove the RNG to make late content more fair.

Edit:

Originally Posted by Terodil

@Ellezard: I'm confused. On the one hand you seem to be arguing in favour of a larger tactical element, yet at the same time you decry initiative as highly untactical. Why, do you think, did the introduction of ranged units, mounted units etc. each have such a profound impact on battlefield tactics? Yet somehow you'd argue that cavallery is not allowed to move any faster than foot soldiers because it turns cavallery into an "I-WIN"-unit? Wut?


Compeltely different game with different approach. Divinity allow for too much wombo combo that can instantly wipe the field. You can't cast jump across half the map, group enemies together and cast meteor on their head in battlefield.

Wombo combo in turn-based game that instantly win a fight is like playing solitaire deck on card game. Your enemies don't matter and there's no tactic involved.
Posted By: Terodil Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 22/09/17 09:50 AM
As I said, I think the main issue is not initiative then but the fact that you can negate distance on the battlefield.

To me it seems that removing the offensive teleport would solve 90% of the issue. Much better, in any case, than removing the entire tactical tradeoff of speed and adaptability vs. heavier defense and offense.
Posted By: Kalrakh Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 22/09/17 09:51 AM
Originally Posted by Ellezard
Tactician are not known for their RNG. They are known for their analysis and predictions to keep risks to the minimum while maximizing the reward. The famous story of Zhuge Liang playing his gupin in the Empty Fort strategy and force an enemy to retreat using his fame as a tool is still told everywhere as what a tactician is truly like. He didn't go up there with a "1% chance to terrify" gupin.


Sure, he totally knew, that he would 100% succeed. It was more likely, that he was pretty sure, that it would work, but an uncertainty remained. It was a risk he took, winning the risk made him a hero, if the enemies would have been harder to impress, he would have ended as a fool. Because the difference between a hero and a fool is often just this, if a risky plan failed or not.

Predicting means, to predict how likely it will happen, that you succeed, you don't need to predict, if you already know, it will succeed.

That what was buffing and debuffing was about in D:OS1, increasing the chance of success and therefore limiting the chance of failure. It also made loremaster more important, because you had to check for their Body Building and Willpower.
Posted By: Terodil Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 22/09/17 09:55 AM
By the way, every good strategist makes contingency plans. It's just that you usually don't hear about them often because they tend to be much less spectacular.
Posted By: Ellezard Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 22/09/17 10:24 AM
The only way to fix teleport is to remove it completely from combat. However, teleport is part of nearly every combo and creative solution. Creative gameplay is what the game is about, that's why teleport with its current 2 AP cost will never be touched now. The game will just give the enemy a "Grounded" stat instead so you can't teleport them out.

High ini battle is going to be a balance nightmare anyway. What will you do about 4 ranger comp stomping tactician with 4 arrow storm? Oh, nerf arrow storm. Then I move to meteor shower. Nerf meteor shower. Then I move to Hail storm. Nerf hail storm. It goes on and on and on. It has more bad than good. They will have to add fog of war into the game to prevent turn 1 stomp and let's not have that. Fog of war is on so many people shitlist already.

@kalrakh : And the build you mentioned just show that people will just build to remove the RNG and maximize their chance.

It's like making our base hit chance starts at 80 instead of 95 and it goes up by +1 per fin for melee and +1 for wit. Suddenly, everyone warrior will have Fin and every ranger will max wit real fast just to land the hit all the time nad make the plan more consistent.
Posted By: TsunAmik Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 22/09/17 10:42 AM
Do you remember btc and wotlk wow? What was main criteria of every build? 108% hitchance, for absolutely certain hit chance on bosses.
Main criteria of every tank? Overcapped defense, so he cannot ever get critically hit by boss. Exactly what Ellezard is talking about, when RNG is involved, almost all good/optimal builds will evolve around reducing that RNG. Removing this RNG part was good move from larian.

About initiative - its all about balancing for good and worse players.
The way it worked, every fight would be trivialized by 4x high wits character, killing/crowdcontrolling most of enemies in turn 1. To compensate that, you would have to nerf basically ALL the abilities and stats, so that doesnt happen.
BUT if you do that, all NON-Wits party comps would suddenly be greatly underpowered in allmost all scenarios, effectively creating huge roadblock, surpasable with only one build or some cheese strategies
Its just lesser evil, I dont say its particularly great solution, but it is easy to implement, easy to balance, easy to understand.

As for ability to make build based on speed and adaptability... dude, thats what movement speed, memory, multiple classes and skills are for... much more than turn order lul
Posted By: Kalrakh Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 22/09/17 10:48 AM
And now they just build to maximise their damage, because they don't need to care about chances.

D:OS 2 is only about excessively huge numbers of damage. All creativity in putting points into attribute is gone. In D:OS1 I had tanky scoundrel with Str, Fin and Int and he still worked fine, my glass cannon support mage was heavy on speed and constitution. Sure, you could put everything into your main stat, but is was not your only option.

But honestly:
Quote
@kalrakh : And the build you mentioned just show that people will just build to remove the RNG and maximize their chance.

It's like making our base hit chance starts at 80 instead of 95 and it goes up by +1 per fin for melee and +1 for wit. Suddenly, everyone warrior will have Fin and every ranger will max wit real fast just to land the hit all the time nad make the plan more consistent.


What do you want me to tell about that? Maximising your chances is not tactical?

Making more than one attribute usefull is not improving tactical opportunities? There is nothing tactical about maxing only one stat.
Posted By: Ellezard Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 22/09/17 11:34 AM
The problem is that not that only build to deal damage. The problem is that majority of the game is all about damage.

Act 1 and 2 had nothing but "Stack damage and win fight". Instead of trying to fix the build and punish people for wanting to deal damage, they should have designed fights that can't be won simply through dealing damage.

There isn't a single fight where you get to use the balista.
Posted By: Hiver Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 22/09/17 11:35 AM
Quote
Unpredictable element in battles come from your enemy taking actions, not from RNG where you go into a fight with a half loaded revolver, expecting it to be a russian roulette.


You see? Complete retardation and ignorance - packaged as logical fallacies.

Laughable false equivalence.

1. How is half loaded gun russian roulette?
2. Why would anyone expect battle will be like russian roulette? Thats completely idiotic.
3. Even if you have a full gun you have no idea if you will actually hit anything with it. There is no guarantee. Not only because of enemy actions but your own imperfections and the environment influence.

You can have a GREATER CHANCE to hit something if you practiced shooting with a gun, preferably the same type of a gun, and even better if its the same gun, but even then no guarantee or certainty.

And who the fuck has any skill at 1%?

Besides, a percentage based chance to succeed IS NOT random.
So the term "random number generator" cannot apply at all.

Because those numbers are not fucking random.

Posted By: TsunAmik Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 22/09/17 11:43 AM
Hah, dont tell me about any random when I got wiped on Brachus Rex in honour mode of DOSEE just because my last alive damage dealer missed 4 abilities in row, every single one of them was above 65% chance to hit! Thats some RNG bullshit, and the less of it is present, happier I am smile
Posted By: Ellezard Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 22/09/17 11:44 AM
Nah, Bracchus was skillful enough to dodge all of them. Should have upped your skill. Totally skill fault.
Posted By: TsunAmik Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 22/09/17 11:48 AM
yeah, I was too weak to predict that some random fucking numbers could screw 15 hours of playtime because of chance... That fight was quite RNG based overall, as brachus had high resistances to CC, so it was like roulette if atleast 1 of 3 CC would connect - if it did, I won, if it missed 3 times, one of my party members was probably dead. And whole fight went downhill after that. Such fun, many tactics.
Posted By: Ellezard Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 22/09/17 11:53 AM
Now, let's make damage range bigger. 3100 to 3250? you mean, 1300 - 3250 so you can tactician your way through everything with consistent damage.
Posted By: Vibalist Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 22/09/17 12:10 PM
Originally Posted by TsunAmik
Hah, dont tell me about any random when I got wiped on Brachus Rex in honour mode of DOSEE just because my last alive damage dealer missed 4 abilities in row, every single one of them was above 65% chance to hit! Thats some RNG bullshit, and the less of it is present, happier I am smile


So? Freak occurences happen. That doesn't prove anything.
Posted By: Hiver Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 22/09/17 12:12 PM
Having a 65% chance to hit something is not random... for fuck sake... you two are so stupid that talking to you rationally has no effect or purpose.

If you had a random chance to hit something then each time you made a move your chance to hit would be chosen RANDOMLY. As well as the result.
So it would never be 65% chance to hit constantly. Nor could you influence it by leveling up and improving your skills.

65% is about two thirds chance, so only a completely brainless person would expect to hit every time or very often. And only a complete moron would go attack the Boss with such low chances and expect to win. Because the Boss also defends, its not a static sculpture you toss stones at... even though you think so because you dont understand how Turn based systems work - because you are stupid.

True, it can be frustrating to miss 4 times in a row or similar, but that happens very rarely - if you improve your skills - and only can completely ruin a game for those who expect they will hit all the time with such a chance. In a fight with a Boss or any appropriately high level enemy - and have no backup plan but stupidly repeat the same bad moves and tactics and then cry when they lose.
And then want the whole system to change so they can "win"...

In a game where they can resurrect and enemies cant, where they can heal but enemies cant or do so extremely rarely and in minimal amounts.

A proper solution to such rare events is to improve the system, not to remove skills and stats you dumb shits.

This only shows what types of dumb cancerous players apparently influence the devs the most, because devs for some reason take this kind of moronic nonsense as their audience and disregard any other.

Types of players who should be playing action games and shooters and similar games, not "old school" RPGs.

Posted By: TsunAmik Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 22/09/17 12:23 PM
You are so bad I honestly have no words :DD

We know how chance effects work. And as whole they create statistic, but at single instance level, they are absolutely random. When you pair 4 random events, it is still random. Only on infinite amount of instances it is now statistic, but that doesnt really happen in game where most fights take 10-20 turns.

What 65% chance means is that I was supposed to hit 2 or 3 of those 4 spells - RANDOM CHANCE decided I won´t and because random functions before that situation led me to state where I had one DD already dead, second incapacitated and third missed 4 times, I wiped.
And in turn based combat, boss IS STATIC SCULPTURE as long as it is my turn. WTF is wrong with you lol.

And of course it is very rare - but that doesn´t really help you if you can´t reload :P And this game has honor mode aswell, and it shouldn´t punish you because RNG decides to fuck you up.

And no, I played the same party, same difficulty, same composition again, and I killed brachus no problem at second attempt - simply because one of my CC spells randomly procced twice in row even against his defenses, I won without even losing as much as half of my HP.

So same tactics, same compositions, similar gear, same fight and difficulty - one wipe, 1 CLEAR victory, all based on some RNG. Nope, thx, pass.

Of course this proves nothing.. but it also doesnt help anything to have RNG, especially game winning/losing RNG, thats the fucking point. And more you minimize that, the better

Oh and we were sarcastic before.
Posted By: Hiver Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 22/09/17 12:26 PM
Quote
And in turn based combat, boss IS STATIC SCULPTURE as long as it is my turn.


lol, there he goes and proves me right.
You are the biggest dumbfuck on these forums.

A retarded dumb scum with shit for brains and a laughable ignorant idiot.

Posted By: TsunAmik Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 22/09/17 12:27 PM
oh, that hurts... now for some argument?
Posted By: Hiver Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 22/09/17 12:32 PM
That was the argument you incredible idiot, you lost it by directly showing you have no idea how TB systems work. Or how RPG games basic mechanics work.

In old school RPGs, especially those which have TB systems each character has offense and defense stats. When enemies have their turn and attack, your character defends with his defense skills and stats. When you attack enemy defends with their defensive skills and stats.

Ergo, you are a complete cretinous imbecile.
Posted By: TsunAmik Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 22/09/17 12:34 PM
OH NO SHIT, and WHAT do you think that 65 percent CHANCE TO HIT WAS? Isn´t it whole manifestation of attack and defense skills? Jesus christ... At that moment, when this number is ALREADY CALCULATED, enemy is just recipient of my turn, nothing more. Just static sculpture with predetermined stats by previous turns. Thats how TB works.

Seriously go checkup on yourself lul
Posted By: Hiver Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 22/09/17 12:43 PM
No, thats how complete imbeciles like you think the Tb works.
Because only a complete imbecile expects that 65% chance to hit will hit everytime.

And because those 65% are your chance to hit. Not the enemy defensive stats and skills.

The result is only calculated when you attack not in advance because the game does not know which of your skills and options for attack you will use - at which point the enemy defends - and you miss because you are a retarded ignorant dumbfuck.

And the next time you tried you succeeded because the enemy did not successfully defend, dodge or whatever his defense skills and stats allowed.

you laughable imbecile.
Posted By: TsunAmik Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 22/09/17 12:49 PM
You are extremely wrong - when you hover over your enemy, you see precalculated hitchance, that is not MY hit chance, it was overall number, thats how it works in DOSEE. That means, that 65% hit chance, is MY HIT CHANCE versus enemy dodge, and that number is final. This is my chance to hit to this particular enemy, and he has way of influencing that further.

And jesus christ, when did I stated I would expect 65% to hit everytime? You can´t read or what? The bad part of that, was that 4 IN ROW missed. Not one, not two, not 3, 4 in row missed on FINAL 65%. Thats what RNG does in game, it does it in all games. Its unpredictable and can screw you over extremely hard, which does not play well with hardcore modes and such.
Posted By: Akka Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 22/09/17 01:04 PM
Originally Posted by Ellezard
Unpredictable element in battles come from your enemy taking actions, not from RNG where you go into a fight with a half loaded revolver, expecting it to be a russian roulette.

We're talking about adding a part of unpredictability to the order of people taking action, so your argument that RNG would replace taking action makes no sense.

Originally Posted by TsunAmik
And jesus christ, when did I stated I would expect 65% to hit everytime? You can´t read or what? The bad part of that, was that 4 IN ROW missed. Not one, not two, not 3, 4 in row missed on FINAL 65%. Thats what RNG does in game, it does it in all games. Its unpredictable and can screw you over extremely hard, which does not play well with hardcore modes and such.

Yes it's unpredictable, and that's the point. Unpredictability means you're forced to plan for contingency in case your plan doesn't work - THAT is also what tactics are about.
Aren't you the guys complaining that things are too easy ? But opposing what could throw a spanner in your plans ? That doesn't compute very well.
Posted By: Terodil Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 22/09/17 01:19 PM
Besides the element of surprise (= you have the first shots) is a valid tactical concept.

Also, you are arguing to keep teleport in the game because it opens up tactical options. Yeah sure. And initiative doesn't? What is worse, removing an entire tier of strategy considerations (options vs. power, both on the battlefield and in character builds) from the game, or simply making teleport affect friendlies and inanimate objects only?

Teleport should never ever have had an offensive use. It leads to a myriad of problems, as we can see here: initiative borked, random 'grounded' attributes, etc. Creating surfaces etc. is easy (and tactical!) enough, you should never have been able to vacuum entire enemy armies in for splortching them with AoE nukes.

P.S./Edit: That said, actually, why not? Heretical concept, I know, but imagine a party of four highly-trained, dedicated mages on an actual battlefield (err... I mean imagined actual non-game battlefield... *cough*). They'd set up deadly combos exactly as above, playing to their strengths. Of course they'd wipe the floor with enemy armies. It'd probably be pretty boring to play barring unforeseen wrenches in the gear but if you *want* to play that way, who are we to decide you aren't allowed to? The only issue I can see is that teleport may be available for too little investment, you should have to invest deeply into mageing to be able to set up such magic traps, not just dump 2 points somewhere and start vacuuming. E.g. teleport with aero 2: teleport inanimate objects. Aero 4: teleport friendlies. Aero 6: teleport enemies with no magic armor. Aero 10: teleport any enemy.
Posted By: Stabbey Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 22/09/17 01:40 PM
In the Alpha, I suggested that Teleport should cost 4 AP to use. That would have usually made it the only thing someone could do on their turn, and would have prevented the "stack 4 Teleports and move 4 enemies at once" strategy from being very effective.
Posted By: Terodil Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 22/09/17 01:48 PM
Originally Posted by Stabbey
In the Alpha, I suggested that Teleport should cost 4 AP to use. That would have usually made it the only thing someone could do on their turn, and would have prevented the "stack 4 Teleports and move 4 enemies at once" strategy from being very effective.


Or that, yeah. Wish they had listened and left initiative be instead...
Posted By: vometia Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 22/09/17 01:51 PM
Keep it friendly and polite, guys. Nobody wants to see personal insults being thrown around.
Posted By: Ellezard Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 22/09/17 02:42 PM
What sort of contingency plan do people expect in a turn-based game? It's not real time. There's no "IF whiff, immediately dodge back and do it again". You either hit and deal damage or miss and lose AP.

Turn-based is already considered to be extremely casual as the only difficult the game has come from lack of information. Trying to add RNG does not add any complexity and challenge to it.

And people keep forgetting the game has wombo combo when they want old ini back. Anything with uninterruptable wombo combo is NEVER complex. IF you can do the combo, you win. It's a game where there's only one side playing the game and the AI never exists. The game ends up having to force rng into any turn-base combo game that just hope that by pure luck, you fail.

This keeps going in circle.

Wombo combo ruins tactical depth -> Lol nerf teleport then -> Then enemies get focus fire and die too fast, brute forced with no creativity -> Make them tanky enough or make you miss -> Then go play tactician -> lol that mode is bloated and has no tactic -> Then we make it so everything takes turn so there's no need to triple the stat -> Lol old INI is better -> wombo combo ruins tactical depth

Funny enough, Larian recent change pretty much ignored the whining. They went and nerfed the players using reactive shield to make the game even harder with the extra AP and turn cost that will mainly affect players.
Posted By: TsunAmik Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 22/09/17 04:03 PM
And to be honest, i more believe larian to know what they are doing, as they have some damn good results... just watch the reviews, user reviews and overall sales...

I mean there are some OBVIOUS misshaps, useless talents, some broken talents, and lack of attribute diversity (but overall diversity easily overshadows that issue), but these are all basically minor details... main thing is that game is playable on all difficulties and its fun, while keeping your possibilities near endless. All the little things will be probably fixed overtime, or we will mby get new EE when console version releases like they did in DOS1? smile THAT would be cool, with new proper tactician mode! (Because its not possible to do real tactician mode on release - they could make tactician because they studied common players strategies and specifically made them invalid in tactician - cant do that when nobody even invented those strategies!) smile
Posted By: Violet Gekko Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 22/09/17 04:42 PM
To be honest, if they plan to go this way all to the end, they should nerf bosses.
Most of their skill cost 1 AP OR they have 6 ap at start. Coping with monster damage at tactician level, boss who go 2nd (always) or 1st (most of the time) will decimate one of my companion.
Low point in con = fuck you in this kind of init way. And bosses can blink, one hit, cast curse/etc, one more hit and one of my team is dead as void tainted fish.
Enemy break rules in this mode so i dislike this kind of change to init.
Posted By: Ellezard Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 22/09/17 04:50 PM
Boss need to be that powerful because defensive skills are just as power as the boss skills. Every type of bosses will have a certain counter to them you can use and completely prevent them from doing much unless it's a really long and exhausting fight one like Adrablahlbahlah (not gonna spoil the name)

If they are physical attackers (Looks like a monster or fighter) : Use Evasive aura, source orb in a necklace slot of Huntsman source book comined with Aero source book. Hunts 2 aero 2 to learn it.

If they are magicians, Leadership and resist potion before you trigger the fight.

If they are summoners, AoE source skill + source vampirism and maybe eat some source orb and source potion if you want to be able to use another 3-source skill after it comes off CD to destroy the boss.

The only boss that breaks this rule so far is sadly only level 14 and can easily be overpowered with gear along with a few fights that have bosses of multiple type instead which are very and keep you on your feet because of the stream of attack that comes on each turn and with round robin, you are given the turn to react after each set of attacks.
Posted By: Volourn Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 22/09/17 05:56 PM
Initiative is awful. It makes a stat useless. There is no logic for it to work that way outside of 'because of balance'. Certainly there are npcs that can have high iniaitive as well that this can hurt.. It is one of the worst if not he worst change from DOS1 to DOS2.
Posted By: Naqel Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 22/09/17 08:26 PM
Originally Posted by Ellezard
Every build needs Wit in it even if you don't want the Ini.

Dagger builds do not care for Wit, because they have a skill based way to force crits(backstab).

Warfare users do not care for Wit, because they have an ability based way to force crits(Enrage).

Bow/Crossbow builds only care about Wit for the initiative, because they have another stat they can pump to get crit more effectively(Ranged Weapons), and bows come with crit on them with an astounding regularity.

Wits as a source of crit chance is supplementary at best, certainly not the primary way to achieve a viable rate.
Posted By: Ellezard Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 22/09/17 08:45 PM
Originally Posted by Naqel
Originally Posted by Ellezard
Every build needs Wit in it even if you don't want the Ini.

Dagger builds do not care for Wit, because they have a skill based way to force crits(backstab).

Warfare users do not care for Wit, because they have an ability based way to force crits(Enrage).

Bow/Crossbow builds only care about Wit for the initiative, because they have another stat they can pump to get crit more effectively(Ranged Weapons), and bows come with crit on them with an astounding regularity.

Wits as a source of crit chance is supplementary at best, certainly not the primary way to achieve a viable rate.


Dagger maybe but you still need it for initiative since you're likely the fastest char to go for a quick burst and out.

Warfare uses it because Enraged has been nerfed to oblivion with its 2 AP cost. Most attacks also have been nerfed especially crippling strike. They have roughly the same damage as normal attack now. Outside Overpowered-Crit, attacking twice will either yield the same damage or 50% more damage than using enrage while also not putting its user in danger. Also it's bugged.

Bow abuse crit with warfare + huntsman. Ranged is weak and adds less damage than warfare + huntsman because of how its damage stat work compared to Warfare and Huntsman.

The only legit reason to not get wits now is that the weapon has +25 crit rate (only some weapon have it and the highest level weapon do not) and with the nerf to rune slots on unique gears (from 3 to 1 on act 3), you can no longer put in 3 fire runes for massive crit chance anymore and has to choose between that or the source orb.

Not to mention a certain fight is best done with like 70 ini and you will need both high wit + clear mind for that unless you want to be in for a hard time. (That is if you don't abuse arrow storm)

Wit is always useful and just got a buff with the slots nerf. Only in act 1 or low level does it feel useless to have on characters outside the fast one.
Posted By: Terodil Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 22/09/17 08:54 PM
Originally Posted by Ellezard
Dagger maybe but you still need it for initiative since you're likely the fastest char to go for a quick burst and out.


Except as we have now discussed for umpteen posts, initiative doesn't work that way any more. It's absolutely useless in that regard.

Quote
[further examples]


The significant opportunity costs of investing in wits still make it a very poor choice overall.
Posted By: Ellezard Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 22/09/17 09:06 PM
You still need Ini so your team get to go first. IF you go first, the order is You-Enemy-You.

As it is normally impossible to break the shield alone without super strong gears and still, you need at least 2 people to help with the focus fire/attack.

Because you get to act twice before the enemy 2nd person get to act, you can easily focus fire the enemy 2nd-to-act and CC him. Any extra AP can go to the 3rd person. IF the 3rd person is strong enough, you just shut off 2 enemies action on the first turn and win the fight.

If you cannot view that as a massive advantage, you cannot discuss tactics. That method can still get you a legit 2-turn teamwipe like you can always do on EA, just with actual planning that involves thinking about the enemies.

This is not even counting 3-side battle where if you go 2nd, you go 3rd because the 3rd side count as enemies and it will go enemy side 1 - enemy side 2 - you. You get hit twice as much so if your team don't get wit, you better be pressing retreat.

And what opportunity cost? You already reach the cap at level 15 on those. What are you gonna invest in next? Mem? They also went and nerfed the slotted rune crit chance on amulet form 30-40% to 10-15% since Act 3 unique gears no longer have 3 slots for fire runes. Wit is now stronger to guarantee that moves like Arrow Storm will actually deal significant damage to bosses in Act 3 that don't have the size of an elephant.

If simply saying "Nah they're not useful cause I say they aren't" is the only arguement you can come up with to say a stat is weak, you're not being constructive and helpful. There's a reason why people around here keep trying to avoid bringing Con up. They just want the wombo combo abuse back in the game.
Posted By: Stabbey Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 22/09/17 09:06 PM
Please stop defending the existence of the Wits attribute in its current state. You're only embarrassing yourself.
Posted By: Ellezard Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 22/09/17 09:13 PM
When you can't even provide a proper rebuttal, the only one embarassing themselves are the only who just stick to whining instead of trying to think of a way to beat the game.

The amount of excuses people come up with ridiculous. Chanting "D1 EE D1 EE" like a holy bible is like people who just "MY LUCIAN MY LUCIAN" in game.

Get with the time and learn the game instead of being so stubborn and entitled.
Posted By: Terodil Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 22/09/17 09:44 PM
Originally Posted by Ellezard
[...] That method can still get you a legit 2-turn teamwipe like you can always do on EA, just with actual planning that involves thinking about the enemies.[...]


Except you conveniently pick an ideal situation which hardly ever presents itself in-game.

- Enemies usually LoS you, which means they have to move before you can even target them.
- Enemies usually nuke one of your characters so hard that you need to blow APs on saving them.
- Your group may require quite a few actions to become effective in the first place. Summons, buffs etc. all eat up AP.

Now if your characters put points into WIT instead of STR, FIN, or INT then your tactic will be even weaker. Since they may not have the power required to CC anybody (assuming everything above aligns in your favour), the plan goes out the window. Which has been our point for the last 5+ pages.

I would also like to point out, once again, that the game is not only the final few hours when you have maxed all attributes and are all pimped out with legendary gear on all party members. You also have to account for the time during which people are levelling up -- those can easily be 30+ hours of gameplay! -- and still have greens and blues in their inventories.

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If simply saying "Nah they're not useful cause I say they aren't" is the only arguement you can come up with to say a stat is weak, you're not being constructive and helpful.


A lot of people have tried different avenues to explain to you the shortcomings of the current WIT and initiative system in a clear and succinct manner. Calling them unconstructive and unhelpful is a rather ungraceful way of pulling out of the discussion.
Posted By: Ellezard Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 22/09/17 10:08 PM
I actually stomped through the game with 20 Wits in Act 1 using Ifan Crossbow, 30 Wits in Act 2 and 40 Wits in act 3 so you can't claim that Wit doesn't work as I never experience those situation unless my gears are heavily outdated which only happened once in Act 2 and that's at the Dwarven cave while I was still gathering information and figuring out how to destroy Act 2.

I mentioned this before that I can even make a list of who sells what and how to unlock them the moment you step into driftwood and turn act 2 into a joke, the same thing people can do to Act 1 once they know where to go in Fort joy to reach level 4 with no fighting from just tracing my steps.

You immediately lose every right to say "I deal no damage if I go first" or "Enemies are too tanky" or "We don't have enough armor" from playing with outdated gears If I give you the list that I discovered on the VERY FIRST PLAYTHROUGH.

When you have the weapon, you don't need ridiculous Fin to deal damage. You get ini and wit and kill half of the enemy team before they even move as long as they are not 2-3 levels above you. So if anything, the whole 5 pages of "Wit build has no damages" can be considered a bunch of people that are struggling trying to come up with excuses.

Want a list? Use it so everyone will say you exploit the game for knowing how to play. Use it so you can go Wit build and see why going 1st is still opasfk and I'm playing EA-ish with 2-3 enemies getting disabled just from range attack on the first turn.

Difficulty in turn-based game come from lack of information.
If you're struggling, it's because you lack the information.
And if you lack information, your words carry less weight in a discussion.
And if you refuse to accept new information while continuing to whine, you become a part of the group called "Monkeys and typewriters" simply waiting for a miracle patch or some kind of keyboard smashing moment that actually beat the enemies.
Posted By: Terodil Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 22/09/17 10:52 PM
Ellezard, I've had about enough of your toxic arguments.

Your position does not get any stronger by denying anybody who does not play the game the way you do the right to form and voice their opinions. Who do you think you are?

There certainly are people who do not wish to powergame at the expense of discovery and roleplaying, yet still want game mechanics to make sense. You cannot point at some guide, say 'just read this before playing, screw RP' and hope to squash all cricitism by calling people stupid whiners if they do not powerplay to compensate for weaknesses inherent in the game design.

This is just terribly toxic diatribe and I'll bow out at this point. A lot of people have said good things in here, it's up to Larian now to decide if they want to make use of it or not. I'll just conserve your best comments for posteriority.

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You immediately lose every right to say [...] from playing with outdated gears If I give you the list that I discovered on the VERY FIRST PLAYTHROUGH.


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If anything, the whole 5 pages of "Wit build has no damages" can be considered a bunch of people that are struggling trying to come up with excuses.


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If you're struggling, it's because you lack the information.
And if you lack information, your words carry less weight in a discussion.
And if you refuse to accept new information while continuing to whine, you become a part of the group called "Monkeys and typewriters" simply waiting for a miracle patch or some kind of keyboard smashing moment that actually beat the enemies.
Posted By: Ellezard Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 22/09/17 11:00 PM
If you're going to argue, at least know exactly what you're talking about. If you're going to roleplay, stay away from modes like Tactician. Stop trying to bring that up because tactician is no place for roleplaying. it's for challenges. The mode description outright say that it is for those looking for challenges. Look for classic and explorer instead where any build can work, including high wit slave build.

This is like going to a math class and review it horribly for not teaching how to art. Then you write complaints asking for the teacher to be changed without caring about the other students in the classroom that are actually doing well and trying their best.

I really don't find it surprising the one whining always back out or just scream "exploit" when tips and tricks are offered anymore. They're not there to listen and learn how to beat the game. They're just there to whine and scream "you're wrong".
Posted By: Stabbey Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 22/09/17 11:08 PM
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The amount of excuses people come up with ridiculous. Chanting "D1 EE D1 EE" like a holy bible is like people who just "MY LUCIAN MY LUCIAN" in game.

Get with the time and learn the game instead of being so stubborn and entitled.


Yeah, how dare we expect Larian to do the thing they literally promised they would do and took money from people to do.

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$700,000 Stretch Goal: Strategist Mode

Akin to Divinity: Original Sin- Enhanced Edition's Tactician Mode, Original Sin 2 will feature a brand new difficulty called Strategist Mode. Rest assured this difficulty tier will consist of much more than a simple numbers game. Yes, your enemies will hit harder, but that is far from all! Each and every fight in the game will be redesigned for Strategist Mode so that enemies are smarter, often come in greater numbers and use a host of skills and tactics they won't use in lower difficulty modes. If we reach this stretch goal, the fights in Original Sin 2 will receive this epic treatment from the get-go.



I'm sorry, what was that?

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Rest assured this difficulty tier will consist of much more than a simple numbers game.


Silly us!
Posted By: Terodil Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 22/09/17 11:08 PM
Good grief, I should know better but... ugh.

Originally Posted by Ellezard
If you're going to argue, at least know exactly what you're talking about. If you're going to roleplay, stay away from modes like Tactician. Stop trying to bring that up


I never did. Initiative is an issue everywhere. This thread is about initiative. Not tactician mode.

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because tactician is no place for roleplaying. it's for challenges.


[citation needed]. I find it absurd that you claim 'roleplaying' and 'challenge' to be mutually exclusive.

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I really don't find it surprising the one whining always back out or just scream "exploit" when tips and tricks are offered anymore.


You know, since you apparently keep making that observation: there's the old adage that if patterns keep repeating, it is advisable to search for the one common factor. To help you on that quest, I submit this for consideration as possibly not the best way to create a positive climate for productive discussion:

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They're not there to listen and learn how to beat the game. They're just there to whine and scream "you're wrong".


The only one screaming that 'you're playing it wrong' is you.

Aaaaand with that I'm really done in here, good night folks.
Posted By: Ellezard Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 22/09/17 11:40 PM
@Stabbey

The description isn't wrong though.

AI with higher stat makes different plays than AI with low stat because they can now make risky play and actually use stuff like Reactive armor to hurt the player.

And they always make the best play, go for your squishy back line and do whatever they can to kill them.

Some of the complaints are asking for the grunt AI to get dumber. Like, wat?

Try stacking leadership and you will see how AI begins to take ages to act. They are always calculating the best move that will hit.

People just can't get past the extra stat so they never notice the rest of the changes that follows. Most of them refuse to even play through act 1 on tactician and just stick to complaining.

The golden key to reviewing something is to make sure you go through it first. People that rage quit around the start shouldn't even be allowed to judge it.

@Terodil:

Initiative is an issue? Or is it just a thing people that play D1 EE and EA are complaining about because they refuse to adapt the changes.

Majority of the complaints come from the same group. People that start the game fresh and join the forum will actually spend look up for tips instead.

You don't see min-maxer going "Lol don't touch Tactician if you're a noob" right away.

Originally Posted by Stabbey
Play on Classic difficulty. Ignore everyone those who say to play Tactician.

They think their way is the only possible way to play and they have literally no concept that not everyone is as skilled or knowledgeable about how to min-max and exploit as effectively as they do. They do not understand that anyone else could possibly find Tactician frustrating.

(I haven't even tried Tactician and I have no interest in trying it in its current poorly-executed state.)


Instead, it's the darn group that go "lol tactician is a crap mode. Also the stat suck. Also the build suck. Lol if you enjoy the game you're not a fun person."

IT's only when the other side is so dense the min-maxer will actually start trashing them.

If you still can't see the impact of going 1st and going 2nd in a turn-based game, you can't talk about the strength of initiative because it shows your lack of understanding. I already gave a good example of how ridiculously strong it is to stack wit and go 1st and lo and behold, it's the usual "WEll, we're not min-maxing or know everything about the game!" excuse.

If a person is doing something right and actually enjoying the game, you can't say they're wrong because they're having fun.

It's the one that are complaining that must defend their position or they're the one in the wrong for killing their own enjoyment with their standards and lack of skills.
Posted By: Stabbey Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 23/09/17 01:50 AM
Originally Posted by Ellezard
@Stabbey

The description isn't wrong though.

AI with higher stat makes different plays than AI with low stat because they can now make risky play and actually use stuff like Reactive armor to hurt the player.

And they always make the best play, go for your squishy back line and do whatever they can to kill them.

Some of the complaints are asking for the grunt AI to get dumber. Like, wat?

Try stacking leadership and you will see how AI begins to take ages to act. They are always calculating the best move that will hit.

People just can't get past the extra stat so they never notice the rest of the changes that follows. Most of them refuse to even play through act 1 on tactician and just stick to complaining.

The golden key to reviewing something is to make sure you go through it first. People that rage quit around the start shouldn't even be allowed to judge it.


I don't find the "It gets better if you just make it through the first 10-20 hours of frustration" argument that convincing. That's a lot of time sunk in, with no guarantee that the players will start to suddenly enjoy it.

When the most visible change in difficulty level is not new enemies, not new skills, but exactly the same kind of numbers game they said that they would NOT do, of course people are going to complain. They are not wrong to do so.


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Some of the complaints are asking for the grunt AI to get dumber. Like, wat?


Yes, and do you know why? To actually give the sense that these enemies are behaving based on what they are, and not just following an identical script which goes "ignore the tank, run straight through several player characters, eating AoO's and go for the mage way in the back."

The AI being so smart actually can be a bad thing, because it means, for instance, that players cannot properly run tank characters, because the enemy ignores them. If there were some enemies who were smart and ignored your tanks, and some enemies who were less smart and did not, that would have a dramatic impact on the effectiveness and fun of the tank playstyle.

It also can't help but feel like cheating when they target your masked and disguised Undead character with healing spells, even though they shouldn't actually know that the character is undead.

Smart AI is good, but AI which feels more like it's blatantly cheating is less satisfying to fight.


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Majority of the complaints come from the same group. People that start the game fresh and join the forum will actually spend look up for tips instead.

You don't see min-maxer going "Lol don't touch Tactician if you're a noob" right away.

Instead, it's the darn group that go "lol tactician is a crap mode. Also the stat suck. Also the build suck. Lol if you enjoy the game you're not a fun person."

IT's only when the other side is so dense the min-maxer will actually start trashing them.


When I see (many) Tactician players going essentially "Tactician is fine, and if you don't play on it, you don't need to think at all. Only losers who hate challenge do not play on Tactician", then yeah, I get offended at the barely-hidden arrogance.

It cannot have escaped your notice that not everyone enjoys the current Tactician difficulty. D:OS 2 Tactician is different than D:OS 1 Tactician. It is a fact that you cannot lower the difficulty in Tactician mode. Add on top of that the "just finish Act 1 before deciding" is a fairly decent time commitment.

If for some reason, those people are among the half or so of Tactician players who do not like it, well too bad, all that time was wasted and now they have to restart. That's going to sour the experience a lot more than starting out on Classic and later deciding to bump it up.


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If you still can't see the impact of going 1st and going 2nd in a turn-based game, you can't talk about the strength of initiative because it shows your lack of understanding. I already gave a good example of how ridiculously strong it is to stack wit and go 1st and lo and behold, it's the usual "WEll, we're not min-maxing or know everything about the game!" excuse.


If Larian had to hardcode turn order like that, then they severely messed up somewhere along the line. Without Wits working on ALL teammates, then it simply doesn't do enough to justify its existence. No, 1% Critical Chance and treasure find isn't enough. Wits shouldn't exist. It's a remnant of a broken design.

It's telling that the players never saw any of this happening, it was all done by Larian after Early Access effectively ended in May (by that I mean players no longer got to give feedback on further changes to mechanics).


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It's the one that are complaining that must defend their position or they're the one in the wrong for killing their own enjoyment with their standards and lack of skills.


I'll thank you to not tell me what I am or am not enjoying. That is for ME to decide.

"Lack of skills". You're really earning your arrogance points. There is absolutely nothing wrong, at all, with people who first like to play on Normal difficulty. You do not get to presume that they MUST be unskilled loser idiots because they don't just jump into the hardest difficulty for their first playthrough.

Comments like that are why you're getting a lot of flak.
Posted By: vometia Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 23/09/17 06:23 AM
Originally Posted by Stabbey
"Lack of skills". You're really earning your arrogance points. There is absolutely nothing wrong, at all, with people who first like to play on Normal difficulty. You do not get to presume that they MUST be unskilled loser idiots because they don't just jump into the hardest difficulty for their first playthrough.

Comments like that are why you're getting a lot of flak.

Yeah: I don't play D:OS as a strategy game, I play it as an RPG. I don't particularly enjoy strategy and have no interest in developing that skill as it's a bit close to the sort of thinking I do in my day job. If people want to play it as a stats-laden strategy game then good luck to them but it has no sort of special correctness about it.

I guess it's a bit like me as someone who can do 3D modelling (okay, I'm not great at it but bear with me) saying that anybody who can't or won't just gets to wear rags in the game because anybody serious about it would learn to do 3D modelling and create their own armour to enjoy things properly, which I suspect would not be a very convincing argument. I hope.

Anyway, the different difficulty levels are there for a reason and it's not so much to do with the skill of the player and more to do with their preferred style of gameplay. As someone who likes RPGing, exploring and dialogue I'm not going to change the gameplay mode to one that pretty much demands I spend most of my time carefully strategising. But I think for someone not familiar with the game, some are certainly more accessible than others.
Posted By: SelfCursed Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 23/09/17 08:17 AM
Long post, beware.

To be honest, after reading every (almost every, skipped some at the end) post, I got quite discouraged. Hiver really shouldn't have used foul language, but I believe that TsunAmik and Ellezard think they're speaking for the majority when they, I would believe are the minority in all this. Or they truly believe they're right. If you believe you're right there's just no way about it, even if the proven smartest person in the world would tell you differently, you would say "No. My point is right, because of this." If you're disproved then you'll try to alter your point to take the lead of the conversation again and the smartest person in the world would have to tail around your every branch-argument until he gets tired of it.

(I'm not implying anyone's a genius or stupid here, just using an example of someone leading others on, doing their best not to be proven wrong, even if they just might could be.)

Either way, I only made an account to reply here because I noticed people evading the main issue here. I got in this thread in the first place when I noticed that my party is not going first despite how many points of initiative I invested in them. I usually like to game casually, if I feel like min-maxing, then I'll min-max the best solution, but I prefer a game with a lot of diversity. Ellezard keeps talking of the game as if there is only ONE, single solution. That is to read a guide and buff the **** out of your damage and follow procedures. I don't agree with this.

Anyway, enough of that. Min-Maxing is one way to play which people like Ellezard like to do, but they don't like it when Min-Maxing becomes too easy. Then why do you do it? They do it because it's there, the most optimal way to play it, if it's too easy, boring. If min-maxing is challening, then yes, awesome. But you forget to consider that not everyone likes min-maxing. While tactician mode should be more challenging and not allow willy-nilly builds of the most stupid things, it should not limit the whole game to a single play style. That's just... making everything else redundant. I'm not saying the game is limited to a single play style right now, I've beat the first chapter with various builds now. What I'm saying is, 'round-robin' is limiting a lot of options. Like many before me mentioned.

The whole notion of tactics... Okay... Let's think about this now... Tactics. You know every ambush location, every thing the enemy can do, just don't know how they'll come about doing it yet. You know how many of them will be, how to place your characters. Everything is calculated. While it is sort of tactics... Knowing everything about your enemy while your enemy cannot respond to any of it because you're practically god in this scenario... You know, your reason about this being tactical is lost here, what's the point of 'tactics' here? It's not tactics, it's just blatant manipulation of 'history' because you know what happens because you went through it, so you did the optimal solution.

The whole thing about tactics is that tactics happens in the moment. The first time you got into that scenario without any previous knowledge of what will happen, without save-loading, without having tested your tactics before. Maybe someone before that area told you it could happen, maybe a note, maybe something felt odd and you were careful. That's tactics, but knowing about it before-hand in some god-like out of area knowledge... I wouldn't call that tactics, though I'm not sure what word to put to it.

What I want from this game? Initiative to mean something other than party-placement. Heck, for some real tactical gameplay. I would love if they left initiative as it was in EA and implemented unpredictable systems such as in real life which if you're battling on shore, you might get hit by a tsunami wave due to a kraken off-shore sinking a ship. Everybody gets literally knocked off their socks. (I know this is unlikely to happen, and is very improbable, but I created this scenario for my next hypothesis) Everyone's knocked down, who gets up first? First guy for initiative to move? Or would it be someone who's stronger? Higher strength usually means you'd get knocked down for less time, or might even get only pushed somewhere.

How about initiative? How come the guy with higher initiative gets to go first, rather than the guy who backstabbed him from sneak? Makes sense? I don't think so.

If your whole party is sneaking and one initiates combat, should the other party members get to move freely all they want? Doesn't seem fair or real time tactical to me. Everyone's standing still while your guys are just moving everywhere. If anything, they should get limited movement, and if they come out of sneaking they should get a bonus to initiative within the round to get an earlier move, after all, no one expected them, right? Call it the surprise factor.

Armor bonuses, I must say that while binary 100% and 0% are really not my style, I still prefer this armor system over DOS:1/EE. RNG chances are good and all, but bodybuilding and willpower can only affect so many things, it should have its limits. Still, I would prefer to have the best of both worlds. For example, something has 100 armor. You get them down to like 40. The next strike like an ability that would cause someone to bleed gets the target armor down to 2... I think the bleed effect should have a chance to be applied by this point, their armor is practically non-existant, there should have been possible skin contact.

The whole armor thing in the first place... If you bash someone's armor with a mace, it'll damage their armor, but I got to tell you something important, the guy inside should not be much better. The armor should limit TRUE DAMAGE, but it should not negate all of it. Same with magic armor. A spell shield, generally a mana shield or whatever negates all CC spells... I think that too should be Intelligence versus target's magic armor at some specific rate, if the skill check passes then check the target's stats. If the remainder of the intelligence passes whatever innate defenses the target has, then by all rights they should be turned into a chicken. (Yes, I think poly should be a magic-shield skill, not physical)

Example of this. Target has 100 Magic Armor. They also have their own intelligence of 10. They have 0 Polymorph (mind against mind). For some unknown reason your mage didn't invest in intelligence and he has 10. You have 5 Polymorph. You cast (Chicken Claw). Your 10 intelligence counts for 10 magic armor a piece (just an example of a system) so 100 magic armor. You negate their magic armor but they still have their own intelligence for you to get through. Let's say their intelligence counts for half because they're on the receiving end. So, 5. You have a poly level of 5. It's a draw, nothing changes, they barely resist. Now you hit them with a fireball and chicken claw them again and they have 68 magic armor.
10-6.8 for magic armor, you have 3.2 int to spare.
5Poly + 3.2 Int - 5 Enemy Int = 3.2! Your spell succeeded, they are now a chicken. I would love to see this kind of system, and it's not impossible, just extra work.
It doesn't have to be RNG, though low level RNG of a dice roll which is 1-5, or even 1-3 is really not that bad. I don't see why the two mentioned above are so against it, it's beyond comprehension to me.

For example this.. 3.2 to hit them with the chicken claw in your favor... But in real life your character is unable to control his/her bodily function and sneezes, losing his concentration (example of a die roll of 1) and you end up with a 4.2. While your enemy, full of fear and adrenaline of his impending doom is concentrated and ready to fight back and survive the impact. He rolls a 5. Because of your lack of concentration this ended up with a 4.2-5 = -0.8 in the enemy's favor, they barely resisted it. I mean, you tactics fanatics, can you control your sneeze and concentration 100% of the time, really? Factor that in your tactics, please.

The skill called Tentacle Lash that gives enemies atrophy if they have no more armor. All it does is make the enemy not able to use their weapons... I mean, I kind of understand the atrophy thing (not really, since once you have it, you don't lose it in one turn, per say), but a tentacle slap across your hands should have a probability to knock a weapon out of your hand, despite the heavy armor on your torso/arms/legs. Unless you literally have your glove glued to the thing.

Moving onto the point made about 4 player teleport and nuke... RNG doesn't have to be the thing to fix it... And this is the reason to turn this game into round-robin... really? Are you kidding me? This is the easiest solution ever. Someone said 4ap is an option. Yeah, why not. I think they should have it stat based. Like in the first game, if you're a weak shit with 5 strength, you can't throw a barrel at all. Same with this. If your intelligence is low, you should be able to lift a thing from only so or so far, and it being only so or so heavy. Or just one of them could change the dynamic drastically. Removing of things thereof is not necessary, it can be changed.

Now the topic of groups being AOE nuked, or boss nuked in 1-2 turns. Well... If you're a higher level than them it's only natural, but if we're talking about higher level enemies or same level, if you want to get around that, initiative groups can be avoided easy victory if the stats were configured as such. If the enemy have low initiative, they should either have higher damage, or higher health, or both depending if they're supposed elites or something. The easiest way to avoid this is by adding numbers to amount of enemies, sure, you can one hit them, or crowd 4 with teleport and nuke them. But having a variety of them spread out, you can't kill them all in one turn, though having that initiative did let you kill half of them, which is a bonus. But now your skills are on CD and you're on the defensive. If you're a DPS/TANK build, you could tank their attacks and kill them at your leisure. If you're a willy-nilly build, then you use your noggen for what spell to use to react to what they do here and there.

Of course, now and then you will always run into groups of 4 of them or so... But these should be (not always) more, elite, no? The fact that people are saying that you can spam AoE death on everything should be looked at and say, hm. Maybe we didn't give them enough health? Maybe we didn't add a higher AP requirement for stronger spells?

In Ellezard's case he min-maxes damage, he can only have so many CC spells, if he uses any in the first place. This means that after he uses his first wave of spells/abilities and damage, either the enemy's dead, or he should suffer some set-backs as everything he has should be on CD except base attacks. Because the enemy is not strong to get back up is not the fault of initiative, it's just that they're too squishy, or your items/levels make you too strong. Round-robin only limits other players of their own play style. After you nuked some heavy armored enemies, they should be able to heal and return the favor to make the battle last longer. Everything should be accounted for.

Now returning to bosses. If you can nuke a boss in 1 turn, then that's not even a boss. How could you even consider that to be a boss? That's just something stronger than other human/elf/dwarf/thing, but really, don't blame initiative on something you can CC in one turn and kill in the next. It should have higher resistances to CC, or have helpers, I mean who's stupid enough to fight a group on their own, even if they have a god-complex. And if they're not caught off guard (which is a tactic of its own, catching someone unprepared in an environment not to their liking), they should be buffed as it's their home base. They should have some kind of leverage.

Though I'll be honest right now. The people complaining that it's too easy, they're the same people who are doing their best to make it as easy as possible for themselves. They are playing the game in a min-maxing way, abusing (taking advantage of) every possible mechanic in the game, even if it's not intended to be done that way. That's why we have patches in the first place, give Larian some space to do their thing. However, if they don't like it, it should not limit the rest of us who like to relax and be nooby, going "Oh shit, my party almost wiped with one guy surviving with 30 health."

Another fact I've noticed, even in school, is that a lot of people just go with the flow, they may notice it, they may not, they may like it, they may not, but only the most extreme of the two ends will speak their mind (mostly). You never know which is the true majority/minority. I personally think that not even 70% of people who play reply on threads, they may read, but not always reply. Prove me wrong! Dare ya.

Oh, I almost forgot, it's my first post, hi all. This has been my rant.

TL:DR

Too many redundant arguments. To find out who's truly correct, LARIAN should put a poll up within their game that even the majority/minority would notice, they'd easily vote from in-game main menu if it's up there. They could look into what people truly like and don't.
(If there's been polls, sorry, I don't normally go looking so I didn't know)
Posted By: SelfCursed Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 23/09/17 08:32 AM
That's what I get for not proof-reading my own sentences... Sorry folks for making you read that garbled mess if you read it before the edit, I just hope you got my point.

To add to the point of nuking enemies in one turn. There should be a clear line of AoE damage to direct damage. AoE spells should not do the same amount of damage to a single unit compared to a single target spell. It's meant to chip away at them, if you focused all four of your champions to do AoE, it should not win you the whole game as easily as playing by situation. Some fights should require you to use direct damage spells, some AoE, some both. If you focus on one, you should feel weaker in other fights because the enemies are more plentiful, or the enemies are stronger. Which again should not be blamed on getting first move of the turn.
Posted By: Violet Gekko Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 23/09/17 10:47 AM
In the end they sshould change like this:
1 wit = 1 crit + 0.5 dodge
1 memory = 1 slot + 1 initiative
1 vitality = 7% health + 2% armour
Order of useless stat right now :memory « wit « vitality.
Why create a stat (dodge) that player has no way of influence except through loot?
Posted By: Akka Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 23/09/17 10:55 AM
Or they could just combine "wits" with "finesse" and "memory" with "intelligence". It thematically makes sense, and it allows to have each basic stat with several effects (power + utility) and we get rid of useless ones.
Posted By: Violet Gekko Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 23/09/17 04:58 PM
To be honest, the WIT stat should never existed in anyway. It's a cut and dry stat when it has initiative bonus.

Initiative can be combined from str + fit + int + cons (every 2 points add 1 init) so that any built that doesn't focus on wit still good enough. Right now except for 2h and physical ranger, there is no point in putting point into wit onto anyone.

Wit can give crit + dodge bonus while initiative can be combined from str + fit + int + cons. Enemies also has those stat so late game is will not be just 4-man turn. So there won't be a reason for a shitty zombie with 10 wit move before my 20 wit mage.

Memory also, another super useless stat. Super duper useless. But the game is out already so i hope they can change wit like what i suggest, other stat (memory) is almost unchangeable if not required a whole game mechanic overhaul.

Whoever the heck has these idea of 6 AP max should not working on next title.
Don't fix what's not broken. More is sometimes better, not worse.
Posted By: Jimmious Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 25/09/17 01:04 PM
So will this be fixed in the foreseeable future?
It was a bad decision made probably under the pressure of time.
It doesn't make sense for the initiative system to work as it does as it even contradicts the game's existing systems.
Posted By: TsunAmik Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 25/09/17 01:14 PM
I don´t really think so. Maybe in some enhanced edition overhaul for console release
Posted By: Stabbey Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 25/09/17 01:26 PM
Here's an argument about why this is clearly broken that I think most people could get. This game is about freedom to play as you like. So if you wanted, you could just roll up a party of four identical Fighters.

Now, I'm not even talking about Tactician difficulty, these four fighters are playing on Classic difficulty, and they are built pretty much identically, same attribute distribution, same ability distribution, same Talent distribution. (Maybe different civil abilities and slightly different skills, it doesn't matter.) With one exception: One of these fighters put an extra point into WIT, the others did not, putting it into something else.

Let's say that these fighters are pumping STR and WIT pretty hard, the majority of their points are going into STR and WIT. Because of this round-robin system, three of those fighters are getting exactly dick-all* value out of nearly the exact same point investment. The guy with +1 WIT is going to go first, then enemy/ally the rest of the way regardless of how much more WIT the rest of the party has compared to the enemy.

All those other points the three other fighters spent on WIT effectively give them no benefit compared to someone who never invested a point into WIT. And that's not right.

---

*(You'll notice that I didn't mention Critical Chance. That's because a mere +1% Critical Chance is not good enough for a primary attribute. That could easily be moved to be some combination of every two points into STR/INT/FIN (possibly not counting bonuses from items).)
Posted By: Peysh Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 25/09/17 04:01 PM
Yeah that is mostly the problem.

I registered just to post here. I read the whole thread and I have to say the arguments on both sides are interesting.

But it seems half the time you are not really replying to one another.

I think I agree with the argument that, all things being equal, the way the game worked in EA was too easily cheesable in tactician, and keeping the same mechanics in the game and balancing the game around it, involved breaking it for everybody else not cheesing with high initiative.

And I understand the other side saying that the problem with this solution, is that until primary stat is maxed, wit is completely useless on 3 characters out of 4. Which is kind of a validation of what I have observed so far, and a revelation that what I did on my characters (pumping primary stat + wit on everybody) is just useless. Thankfully I can respec. If that is not godawful game design, I don't know what is.

However, the argument that tactician mode should be accomodating to all, and not primarily to min-maxers is totally idiotic. The mode is supposed to be the hardest, so complaining that it is too hard with your suboptimal team is a bit a non sequitur. The real test is : are there several builds that are more or less able to beat this mode? Yes / No ? If yes, then it's a success. If not, its a bit boring.

However, the game mode to experiment all you want and have combinations that should not exist win fights and go complete role playing game, with an intelligence rogue, or equally strange stuff already exists, it is called explorer.

But, as I was saying, this does not negate the fact that right now, wit is not in a good place, and is severely counter intuitive to understand. It should definitely be reworked.

Now, in what way ? There are many good ideas out there.
- Replace it by dodge
- replace it by movement speed
- Keep it as initiative but rework teleportation (as that is really the main thing making it totally OP)

Also, one of my other gripes is the way the armor works. THe binary nature of CC / non CC makes it very frustrating, and also kind of self defeating in a game dedicated to these CC effects.

A better way to implement would have been to allow for all CC to go through (like with glass canon) but to increase the reaction of ennemies to counter these fields. This coupled with the reduction of the availability of teleport and / or the number of ennemies, so that you can't CC everybody on turn 1. Or that you have a choice to make between CC and damage.

Which is the way blizzard balanced WoW by the way, most cc is either broken by damage, or renders CC target undamageable.

It could also work with this choice to make, and make for some nice puzzles, as the WoW raid team has been one of the most inventive in PvE set pieces for a decade.
Posted By: iFreeDawg Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 02/10/17 07:35 PM
Wit was useful for my rogue character until you hit level 11 and all important enemies for whatever reason had an extra 20 initiative ontop of their wit. I built my rogue HARD toward initiative to ensure that he always gets to go first. I equipped inititive for every bodypart and had the ingenious talent. At level 12 my rogue had 36 initiative which was way above what regular enemies might posses. But for whatever fucking reason all important enemies have 20+ base initiative making it impossible to compete with them for taking the first turn.
That's kicking horseshit in my eyes.
How am I supposed to beat 40 initiative? My ranger has only been putting points in finesse this whole time and she hasn't even reached 40 yet.

Tl'Dr
At level 11 It becomes impossible to compete for making the first move because many enemies have 20+ base initiative ontop of their wit.
Therefore wit loses it's single biggest virtue and goes from being good on one of your character in the party to being good on none of the characters in your party.
Posted By: lampuiho Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 18/11/17 01:30 PM
Scrapping the whole idea instead of balancing it is just lazy... stop trying to defend laziness please. I believe it could be balanced somehow. It was so fun back in FF tactics...
Posted By: Yasen Re: Initiative, how it works now? - 18/11/17 04:31 PM
FF tactics was a lot more conservative about movement skills.
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