Larian Studios
Posted By: Linio Poll on the armor system - 18/09/17 09:22 PM
Hi All.

There are more and more topics revolving around the armor system. Since we can see a lot of messages here and there, I wanted to have a feel of what the community in general think of it.

Here's a little poll on the subject :

Easypoll on armor

I would appreciate you take a little time to answer regardless of what your opinion is (there should be enough options to cover pretty much every case).

Thanks.
Posted By: theBlackDragon Re: Poll on the armor system - 18/09/17 09:26 PM
You should at least mention that you cross posted this to the Steam forums, will otherwise give quite a skewed impression of the audience size.
Posted By: Linio Re: Poll on the armor system - 18/09/17 09:28 PM
Hi.

I wasn't aware that would cause an issue, but thanks for pointing that out.
I felt posting it only here would gather fewer responses and a narrower perspective on the matter.
Posted By: mindw0rk Re: Poll on the armor system - 18/09/17 09:38 PM
I like this new shields system
Posted By: KentDA Re: Poll on the armor system - 18/09/17 10:04 PM
I'm of two minds about the new armor / magic armor system.

I like the idea, and its not like its anything new. Many games have armor that has "physical defense" and "magical defense" as attributes. This goes back to the early days of RPGs so its nothing new.

What IS new (at least to me) is the idea that the Armor is basically your Physical Resistance and your Magic Armor is your Magic Resistance.

I'm of mixed views on armor & resistance being rolled into the same "stat". It feels like this makes status effects more of a late combat fight thing than something to try and lead the fight off with to push an advantage.
Posted By: Zerd Re: Poll on the armor system - 18/09/17 10:08 PM
Only 34 votes so far.

My take on the Armor system is that it wanted to take the randomness away from the tatics. For me, I like the randomness because it gives a sensation of playing tabletop RPG, that's why I didn't like the way it's designed.

As many people said, it is not viable to have a build that mixes both type of damages and even your team has to be either only 1 type of damage or a extreme controlled 2:2 hybrid to win fights, otherwise, one of the characters will be useless by not being able to damage vitality directly nor causing CC's. I don't dislike the idea of having something protecting your health, but splitting into two types is the main problem.

Also, since we're talking about this, I also dislike the accuracy system. The base being 95% means most characters won't miss unless they have a negative condition (which can only be received by depleting their armor). I like the idea of not being able to rely on (almost) every single basic attack and spell. Maybe they could mix add more dodging options to tanky characters (simulating a high AC) and having the armor to gradually increase your resists to CC's.

I feel like this has been said too much by now, but if anyone makes a balanced mod with any of those ideas (all hail Baardvark), I'd love to play the game with them. With this system, I feel like my criativity is being constrained.
Posted By: Stabbey Re: Poll on the armor system - 18/09/17 10:08 PM
I don't see the point of posting this poll now instead of at the start of Early Access. It ain't changing drastically at this point, that ship sank a long time ago.

Honestly, though, during the beta, I did try to think of a better system, and I couldn't.
Posted By: Rowy Re: Poll on the armor system - 18/09/17 10:43 PM
Armour system is fine by me... A bit unique and removes RNG.

Very cool.
Posted By: dlux Re: Poll on the armor system - 19/09/17 12:34 AM
Neither systems designs are great, but it was better in D:OS 1.

The new armor system isn't terrible, but it becomes repetitive, because the general tactics in combat are pretty much always the same.
Posted By: Marc54 Re: Poll on the armor system - 19/09/17 07:08 AM
Its fine. Its basically the spaceship system. Shields go down with lasers, armor needs physical damage, and the hull can be damage by anything. I do think it could be more interesting but the system is fine and has been done many times with success in the past.
Posted By: Linio Re: Poll on the armor system - 19/09/17 07:11 AM
Originally Posted by Stabbey
I don't see the point of posting this poll now instead of at the start of Early Access. It ain't changing drastically at this point, that ship sank a long time ago.

Honestly, though, during the beta, I did try to think of a better system, and I couldn't.


For the first point to be fair, the current build was never made available. I remember the discussions at length about it, and being a little worried, hoping in the end Larian would do something, but didn't, so yeah, maybe the ship has sailed, still, regarding the poll we can see that a majority of people wants a change.

About the ideas, a lot were sent already, the one reccuring being the percentage based CC depending on how much armor you have left. The other being having monsters having either one or the other armor. Maybe not the best but somehow it already feels better than the system in place.

Posted By: geala Re: Poll on the armor system - 19/09/17 07:21 AM
Like Stabbey, I don't see so much sense in a poll which's intention seems to be change. Anything is made for the armor system and changing it to some untested alternatives now after release seems a bit bold.

BTW, CC as percentage of armor reinvents the randomness system, no please. And mobs with this or that armor were mobs without armor because every group would be two magical and two physical chars, nicely focusing the two convenient enemies at a time. It would be like now, but worse.
Posted By: Naqel Re: Poll on the armor system - 19/09/17 07:36 AM
The system required tuning that there was obviously no time to do.

The overall design of the abilities also doesn't help, since there's a very poor sense of proper progression and relative power.
Posted By: qwerty3w Re: Poll on the armor system - 19/09/17 07:54 AM
A easy to implement system would be CC skills deal physical damage check magical armor and CC skills deal magical damage check physical armor. This way the player has to choose between damage to vitality and CC if only one of the target's armors down.
It would likely force a solo player to play hybrid build though, but provides more interesting dynamics for a team.
Posted By: Akka Re: Poll on the armor system - 19/09/17 09:04 AM
I really don't like the whole armour system, for the many, many reasons which were discussed at length before.
Also, thematically speaking I prefer armour working as reduction of impact rather than a life bar. I'd prefer to have the CC problem dampened at the source (making CC themselves less prevalent/less powerful) instead of building a whole new armour system around it.

I would prefer having OS1 armour system overall, and having the defense reducing the CC effect proportionally to the defense provided. So for example, if your armour absorb 50 % of the damage, it will reduce CC by 50 % (two turns worth of stun would become one turn of stun ; one turn of stun would become "reduce AP by 50 % for the next turn" and so on).
Posted By: Linio Re: Poll on the armor system - 19/09/17 10:02 AM
Originally Posted by geala
Like Stabbey, I don't see so much sense in a poll which's intention seems to be change. Anything is made for the armor system and changing it to some untested alternatives now after release seems a bit bold.


They did an EE for the first opus.
And honestly, I'm not very fond of the "Oh well, too late now" argument.
The topic of course led to thinking there was issues with the system as it is now, then again, I just created the poll with as little context as possible. The responses are pretty clear, the majority of players dislike the system. I do not know what would be a good way of changing it, but I do know being here the past few months that a lot of people who kickstarted the game voiced the issues, and it seems they were ignored, which is not what you want when you kickstart a game.

Posted By: TsunAmik Re: Poll on the armor system - 19/09/17 10:05 AM
Originally Posted by Linio
Originally Posted by geala
Like Stabbey, I don't see so much sense in a poll which's intention seems to be change. Anything is made for the armor system and changing it to some untested alternatives now after release seems a bit bold.


They did an EE for the first opus.
And honestly, I'm not very fond of the "Oh well, too late now" argument.
The topic of course led to thinking there was issues with the system as it is now, then again, I just created the poll with as little context as possible. The responses are pretty clear, the majority of players dislike the system. I do not know what would be a good way of changing it, but I do know being here the past few months that a lot of people who kickstarted the game voiced the issues, and it seems they were ignored, which is not what you want when you kickstart a game.



Am I looking at different poll or what? From the easypolls 52 percent of people like it as perfect or with small tweaks, another 22 percent like the idea, but not the implementation.

Thats pretty far from statement "The responses are pretty clear, the majority of players dislike the system."

Are you a politician? You sound like some politics from our country.. laugh
Posted By: Linio Re: Poll on the armor system - 19/09/17 01:32 PM
It's perfect, I wouldn't change it 13%

I call them as I see them. The number changes, when I looked, there was less than 50% with the two first answer.
A need to tweak the system is not an acceptance of it.

Anyway, I think the other topics speak for themselves, I just wanted to give Larian a picture of things, and to me it's clear, but of course analysis of those number is a matter of taste. If I were to create something that only 13% are confortable with, I wouldn't be happy, but hey, call me a politician wink
Posted By: TsunAmik Re: Poll on the armor system - 19/09/17 01:37 PM
Nah, people are NEVER satisfied completely, so liking it even if you think it could be tweaked still doesnt mean people are generally against it. I mean you write MAJORITY DISLIKES it, even when the answer in poll states "but I LIKE IT"
Posted By: Shared Re: Poll on the armor system - 19/09/17 02:02 PM
I think the system is fine. I however think the skills you can get are the problem. As there is almost nothing that bypasses the different armors, not even taunt, wich makes it the most useless skill in the game. Frankly i think the best way to improve this system, wich i like btw. Is to tweak or add some skills that can bypass it, and do something except armor. Taunt f.ex, needs to just get fixed so it bypasses armor. There is no point to it otherwise, as just using a knockdown skill is superior ALWAYS when armor is gone.
Posted By: CameronHall Re: Poll on the armor system - 19/09/17 02:08 PM
I love the armor system, but I don't like how some skills, such as taunt, are made absolutely worthless by it. A few skills need to pierce the armor(s), that's for sure.
I also hate how AI will stop at nothing to CC someone with glass cannon regardless of how much armor they actually have. Also makes me annoyed to even bother having a tank.
Posted By: Luckmann Re: Poll on the armor system - 19/09/17 03:29 PM
Originally Posted by Stabbey
I don't see the point of posting this poll now instead of at the start of Early Access. It ain't changing drastically at this point, that ship sank a long time ago.

Honestly, though, during the beta, I did try to think of a better system, and I couldn't.
Really? It took the RPG Codex, like, 10 minutes. Partial resistance based on remaining armor. Boom. Done.

Also, a lot of effects should simply ignore armor altogether. The fact that Taunts bounce off someone's plate-mail is insanely ridiculous.

A fully binary system is horrible. I'd rather cast Charm 10 times at complete randomness.
Posted By: Hiver Re: Poll on the armor system - 19/09/17 08:15 PM
Quote
Partial resistance based on remaining armor. Boom. Done.

Already suggested by me during Ea.

Its not something the devs couldnt figure out themselves.
They made their choice intentionally.

So no amount of suggestions will change that. Especially now when the game is selling very well and the new mass market audience spam their "enjoyment" all over.

btw, the poll is ridiculous garbage which consists of three l "i like the system!!!" even one where you apparently "like" the system but would want major overhauls...
And one "I hate it!" option, with no further clarification or explanation, -

Liking DOS1 more is irrelevant as well as "no opinon whatsoever".

Posted By: Linio Re: Poll on the armor system - 19/09/17 09:53 PM
Thanks for calling me a deranged hypocrite, when you're saying earlier that you think the armor system should be changed.
Jesus, people in this thread.

Quote

Its not something the devs couldnt figure out themselves.
They made their choice intentionally.

So no amount of suggestions will change that. Especially now when the game is selling very well and the new mass market audience spam their "enjoyment" all over.


To me this is exactly the problem, and yeah, of course a poll will be biased, I mean, I did what I could, I don't see how puting "It is perfect", and "I hate it" together is pointing towards an answer, but hey, that's just me. You can't possibily have context from a poll, it's just a way of having some kind of view of a general opinion.

That will be my last post in here, I just wanted to show Larian that maybe the system needed change, and I think this is exactly what it shows, of course it's subjective, I mean heck, I like the idea of the system myself, just not the system as it is now. I think what they tried to do to change the way it was done in the first opus was just a good idea, but the execution is horribly wrong. And I'd rather see it changed for the better, but as of today, I'd rather play the first one...
Posted By: Ouroboros226 Re: Poll on the armor system - 19/09/17 10:43 PM
Regardless of completely or partial immunity discussion regarding Armor and Magic armor, I personally think taunt should **always pierce armor**. It really makes zero sense that throwing an insult at someone would be blocked by armor.

"Hey Guard Captain! YOU SUCK!"
"Words don't hurt my feelings bro, I have this plate armor on - it protects me against your cruel words"
Posted By: Kalrakh Re: Poll on the armor system - 19/09/17 10:47 PM
That is, why I like Willpower, it made far more sense to resist because of high willpower than everything now.
Posted By: Ferrous Re: Poll on the armor system - 19/09/17 11:25 PM
The only real problem I have with this, is that you have to focus on a single damage type for your whole party, the one and only change I really want to see is to make it so that different damage types can be used.

My suggestions would be, if Physical Armor reaches 0 than magic damage will deal 25% of its damage to vitality and 75% to the magic armor, and same other way around. The requirements to CC someone with a damage type remain the same, but this would allow teams to be 3 of one type and 1 of another.
Posted By: Littlebob86 Re: Poll on the armor system - 20/09/17 03:50 AM
I really don't like the system. I feel it it against having a mixed team. It feels like you need your team speced to smash away at either physical or magic, especially on tactician.. Like, where's the tactics in that?

I set myself up in a good place that tunneled the bad guys, set up rain, starting out with lightning, and every one of the 6 of them ran through the huge puddle taking magic damage (Down to probably half magic armour) and proceeded to then slaughter my team as they obviously still all had full physical, half magic and passed all my CC (Which more cc would be useless because half of them were right in the middle of my group) (I have - 1 fighter, 1 ranger, 1 cleric/necro, 1 CC mage - (Had, don't really see how I can continue with the party make up the way it is smirk )).

I personally feel the dos 1 version was better and would of only needed some refining.
Posted By: Hiver Re: Poll on the armor system - 20/09/17 04:00 AM
Originally Posted by Linio
Thanks for calling me a deranged hypocrite, when you're saying earlier that you think the armor system should be changed.
Jesus, people in this thread.


Ah sorry, the poll looks like you tried to lean it towards "new system is great" while only other options is "i hate it!" as if its just an emotional issue so... i didnt process that nicely.

Its all the "im having fun therefore this is great!" logic ive been exposed to.

And i definitely need to get off the internet for a while.

Posted By: TsunAmik Re: Poll on the armor system - 20/09/17 05:27 AM
Originally Posted by Littlebob86
I really don't like the system. I feel it it against having a mixed team. It feels like you need your team speced to smash away at either physical or magic, especially on tactician.. Like, where's the tactics in that?

I set myself up in a good place that tunneled the bad guys, set up rain, starting out with lightning, and every one of the 6 of them ran through the huge puddle taking magic damage (Down to probably half magic armour) and proceeded to then slaughter my team as they obviously still all had full physical, half magic and passed all my CC (Which more cc would be useless because half of them were right in the middle of my group) (I have - 1 fighter, 1 ranger, 1 cleric/necro, 1 CC mage - (Had, don't really see how I can continue with the party make up the way it is smirk )).

I personally feel the dos 1 version was better and would of only needed some refining.


Meh, I am playing with summoning+warfare, classic shadowblade, wayfarer+pyro and classic enchanter... and it works just fine, its all about target prioritization, typical rock/paper/scissors.
Posted By: bugreport123 Re: Poll on the armor system - 20/09/17 05:58 AM
The armor system is actually quite fun and I don't understand the thing about people saying you need to stack a single damage type. Enemies most of the time have huge differences in armor so you have to focus different targets with different types of damage which actually makes it more tactical than just focusing everything on single most dangerous target every time. I'm running a 4 elemental school spellcaster, a huntsman, sword and board guy and a scoundrel and so far I haven't been cockblocked completely out of the game at any point on tactician.

The bigger issue with the whole combat system is CC being ridiculously overpowered. When you have mobs with 5k health while rest are usually in 500-1k range there's not much to do except to burn the armor that's lower down quickly and chain spam CC on the enemies. Maybe it's simpler on lower difficulties but that's my experience in general pretty much. The game would benefit overall more with a nerf to all kinds of CC effects while reducing some mob power levels.

Either way, I enjoy the combat system much more compared to OS1 which got really boring in the end game. Especially the spell variety is such a god sent, most of the difficult fights require some real setting up to deal with which is quite fun as well.
Posted By: Linio Re: Poll on the armor system - 20/09/17 06:45 AM
Originally Posted by Hiver

Its all the "im having fun therefore this is great!" logic ive been exposed to.

And i definitely need to get off the internet for a while.


I hear you. I also kind of hate the "If you don't like it, mod it" propaganda.

A little bit off topic, it's been a while I've prepared a setup to play with 3 friends, one of whom I played the first opus, and two "newbies". The hype was very strong, we installed two big ass TVs at my place, and we do gaming sessions together.
Honestly between these issues with how the new system is a little bit off and the general bugs on the controller version, I am not having much fun, and the sessions are getting a little bit frustrating, hence this topic, and the fact that I must too be on the edge.

No harm no foul bro, stay on the internet, I'm pretty sure we have all good things to say on the system and maybe Larian will pick up on some of those.
Posted By: Gaidax Re: Poll on the armor system - 20/09/17 07:41 AM
It is generally fine, although I would prefer it to just be "armor", so that there won't be targets that are pointless to hit with magic or physical.
Posted By: LordGodSatan Re: Poll on the armor system - 20/09/17 08:02 AM
Those of you saying the armor system is fine, I thought so too.

Then I encountered Lohsee's Demon, who had 17k armor and 22k magic armor, with 11k health (that was halved, there's a way to halve it from 22k health, 34k armor, 44k magic armro). The other bosses in the area had 4k armor, 6k health, and 5k magic armor...

Did I mention he has perseverance? 30% armor or magic armor restored after he recovers...

7k or 14k armor restored if he recovers... (he usually buffs himself)

Something needs to be looked into perseverance at least, it's kind ridiculous on a boss that can two shot the entire group with aoe source skills (that aren't dodge-able, I have 50% dodge on every character), and has unlimited source points...
Posted By: xenustehg Re: Poll on the armor system - 20/09/17 01:07 PM
The rules of armor are too simple: it's either work or doesn't.
Each spell/ability should have an individual logical formulae that describes if it will work or not. And armor can be a part of these formulas along the way with caster/target stats and whatnot.
Posted By: TsunAmik Re: Poll on the armor system - 20/09/17 01:11 PM
Formulas and such are nice, but very confusing for casual players who just wanna start the game and play it.. I mean, divinity is hard now for beginners, adding some crazy formulas would make it even more convoluted
Posted By: Linio Re: Poll on the armor system - 20/09/17 01:54 PM
Oddly enough, I played with casual/beginners players for both the first and the second game, and although the first was okay (I must say, my friend kind of liked the CC madness, she liked inflicting things that mattered to the enemies, so maybe not our ideal candidate but a category of players too), although my friends have a hard time wraping their head around the armor system as a whole. I wouldn't say it's more accessible than the first. The first was more opaque, so people not willing to crunch down the numbers would just play it, now you do have to understand the whole armor system in order to actually do some damage. I for one do not dislike it, but I wouldn't call the armor system newbie-friendly in regard of this.
Posted By: Sergey Butsenov Re: Poll on the armor system - 20/09/17 02:08 PM
it would be nice if physical DD could get some mechanics to convert their phys damage to magical. Something like "let_the_sword_be_cold_as_ice(hot_as_fire)" buff from mage, so mages wouldn't stand still and do nothing in fights where enemy magical armor is too high. And it would be nice if mages had additional phys armor damage at their spells, so their CC-constituent still wouldn't pass until magical armor is here but they (mages) would be useful in battles with tough phys armor enemies and add more sense that enemy SHOULD get some physical damage from spell projectile (ball of fire\falling rock\ice lump\burn from electric bolt).
Now the game is forcing us to concentrate on only mages or only physical party for maximum effectiveness, what is not good for the game that claims total freedom. Thats the main problem of this system - mixed parties is not so effective as pure. That is artificial limitations and imbalance.
Posted By: Imryll Re: Poll on the armor system - 20/09/17 03:04 PM
It's not that I can't work around it. It's just that I heartily dislike the game's all-or-nothing, anti-hybrid approach to armor. Having certain abilities be all but useless against certain types of enemies can be interesting, so long as it doesn't become a tax applied only to mages or only to physical damage dealers, and it doesn't happen too often. The occasional creature with immunity to fire or piercing damage is fine. Resistances are fine. I find not being able to do anything until a creature is unarmored against the type of CC or damage a character can apply to be frustrating, not fun. It's not that having your party adapt to the occasional creature with such defenses wouldn't be interesting. It's that it makes for poor fare as a steady diet. I much prefer playing a party with varied abilities, both individually and collectively. I find it totally unfun to find myself debating whether to spec a character in a way that seems to go against their nature so that they can contribute efficiently to a magic- or physical-damage party.
Posted By: Littlebob86 Re: Poll on the armor system - 20/09/17 04:09 PM
Guys! I'm so happy! A mod reducing the armour amounts and buffing health instead! smile

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1139221227&searchtext=
Posted By: Shared Re: Poll on the armor system - 20/09/17 05:32 PM
Originally Posted by LordGodSatan
Those of you saying the armor system is fine, I thought so too.

Then I encountered Lohsee's Demon, who had 17k armor and 22k magic armor, with 11k health (that was halved, there's a way to halve it from 22k health, 34k armor, 44k magic armro). The other bosses in the area had 4k armor, 6k health, and 5k magic armor...



Well this one is easy. Gemonacy on 1 or all 4 people in group. Polymorph, necro and warfare on 1 person wich uses plate. You can buff that one person past 17k armor, then just use 1 overwhelm. Done. All armor gone.
Posted By: Rayner Re: Poll on the armor system - 20/09/17 07:37 PM
I'd like to see something closer to this:

1. All attacks deal some amount of damage to all armor types.
2. You need to eat through both Armor types to start damaging health with any kind of attack
3. Physical attacks deal 75% damage against Physical Armor and normal damage to Magic Armor
4. Magic attacks deal 75% damage against Magic Armor and normal damage against Physical Armor
5. Maybe those could be swapped if that makes more sense, with Physical attacks being the counter to Magical armor and vice versa
6. Some attacks would deal bonus damage to Armor, something like "Sunder Armor, deals X - Y damage, and a bonus A - B damage against Physical armor"
7. These special attacks could come in every permutation, e.g. a physical attack that deals extra damage to physical, a physical attack that deals extra damage to magic, a magic attack that deals extra damage to physical, and a magic attack that deals extra damage to magic
8. The Resist system can stay the same. This way you'd try to focus down an enemy's weakest armor type and then use a crowd control spell of that type before going to work on the other armor type/health. Right now, by the time you get around to being able to CC someone, you may as well just kill them instead.

I think this also solves the issue of hybrid characters and mixed groups being less optimal. If you routinely need to eat through both physical and magical armor, then a character/group that can do both isn't at a disadvantage.

You also don't remove the option of pure physical or pure magical groups because of those abilities that damage the opposite armor type. You even have the perfect system in place for those abilities. Take that "Sunder Armor" example ability, combine it with any elemental skill book, and get Sunder Magical Armor. Now your pure physical team isn't weak to magic armor anymore.

This is too much for an official change, but I assume something like this could be modded.
Posted By: Hiver Re: Poll on the armor system - 21/09/17 03:35 AM
Originally Posted by Linio
I'm pretty sure we have all good things to say on the system and maybe Larian will pick up on some of those.


Larian will pick up only those ideas that fit with their ideas or dont drastically change them. The only worthwhile result of these kinds of discussions is whether some modders pick up a good idea or not.

The Baardwark Bard mod should be the best option to hope for since it also includes changes to CC effects. And may also change how armors function.

The armor system and CC effects are very codependant and both need changing, not just one, to really have a better and more tactical gameplay.

The way to do this is to make a lot of softer CC effects that do not completely stun or freeze enemies but cause softer debuffs and similar negative effects. And then also keep hard lock CC effects - as critical hit success only. This would make them rare and hard to achieve, but still available because they are fun and tactically useful abilities - if they are rare and hard to achieve.

Some further balancing of how crits happen and what requirements they should have in order not to be too easy to achieve would then be relatively easier to add.

This could also improve value of Wits.

Constitution could then give resistance to critical strikes - and therefore higher chance to avoid hard lock CC effects, which would make it more valuable.

Thus the attributes would be balanced and improved.


Armors of course, should work in some form of percentage based defense/damage reduction as i (and several others) already suggested.
It could be a simple point for point system because that is elegant and easy to implement - and extremely easy to understand even by the most casual of players.

While the insane amounts of armor and Hp numbers need to be toned down. Dealing in thousands of points is pointless.- ba dum-tshh.
Its literally pointless bloat that serves no purpose.
All numbers should be lowered into hundreds at most across the board. Armor, vitality/HP and damage values.

Thats not a big demand or a big issue but it would make the whole system more elegant, lean and mean.

Posted By: Linio Re: Poll on the armor system - 21/09/17 07:32 AM
Do mods prevent achievements?
Posted By: xenustehg Re: Poll on the armor system - 21/09/17 09:21 AM
I think the game designers at Larian don't really know what crowd controll is and why current armor system renders every cc skill and tanks useless.

Because the game had an early access and many ea-players reported this flaw.
Posted By: crusher1980 Re: Poll on the armor system - 21/09/17 09:39 AM
Hate it ...

Overall the game is much better than DOS1 but because of this system it isnt.

This also makes physical damage compared to magic damage VASTLY SUPERIOR, why ? Because there is no armor anymore which reduces physical damage, only the shield system but both sides have to damage through their shield type.

But magic damage also gets reduces by resistances of mobs and often they are also immune to one type. Now you could argue that they also have minus resistances but it means you have to distribute equally into 2 damage types, a phyhsical damage user dont have to do this.

So if you want to play this game ideally you would take 3 physical damage users and one pure healer /sigh.

And it just feels so wrong and also chaotic with this system, like you have sometimes spells which gets damage from str. instead of intellect or vice versa and "melee" CCs that are immune from magic shield.

I have so many cool freezing, cc spells and status effects which most of the time just dont do anything. Sure if the shield is down but guess what ? The fight usually is then over aswell.

Dont like this system a bit, this is so sad because the game overall is superb but because of this DOS1 is much MORE FUN.

Shield system would have made sense for buffs only but since every armor piece and nearly every mob has it ..... /sigh.
Posted By: TsunAmik Re: Poll on the armor system - 21/09/17 09:50 AM
Hi, if you are troubled by armor system so much, I really recommend this mod:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1139221227&searchtext=
BUT because it doesnt change player armours, your party becomes bit stronger than it should be, so I would recommend playing on tactician difficulty now, but its upto you of course!
Posted By: xenustehg Re: Poll on the armor system - 21/09/17 09:54 AM
Just make CC effects ignore all the armor, on Tactician every mob gnawls through any armor type with just one hit so this Status protection almost never works in your favor.
Posted By: TsunAmik Re: Poll on the armor system - 21/09/17 09:56 AM
Well thats part of the difficulty, you must outsmart them, not outstat them! smile
Posted By: xenustehg Re: Poll on the armor system - 21/09/17 10:10 AM
[quote=TsunAmik]Well thats part of the difficulty, you must outsmart them, not outstat them! :)[/quote]
I tried to outsmart them but it was resisted by physical armor.
Posted By: TsunAmik Re: Poll on the armor system - 21/09/17 10:18 AM
That was not smart enough. Use your surroundings, high grounds, teleports, barrels, line of sight, positioning, scrolls...
Not just "mah stun"...

Because lets be fair, if they had every first turn, and you could get CC´d indefinitely, there would be helluva lot of complaining aswell smile
Posted By: Xaelyn Re: Poll on the armor system - 21/09/17 11:42 AM
I made a mod that makes most of the lesser debuffs apply through armour. All hard CC still needs armour to be destroyed.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1139858748
Posted By: Kodachi Re: Poll on the armor system - 21/09/17 12:03 PM
[quote=crusher1980]Hate it ...

Overall the game is much better than DOS1 but because of this system it isnt.

This also makes physical damage compared to magic damage VASTLY SUPERIOR, why ? Because there is no armor anymore which reduces physical damage, only the shield system but both sides have to damage through their shield type.

But magic damage also gets reduces by resistances of mobs and often they are also immune to one type. Now you could argue that they also have minus resistances but it means you have to distribute equally into 2 damage types, a phyhsical damage user dont have to do this.

So if you want to play this game ideally you would take 3 physical damage users and one pure healer /sigh.

And it just feels so wrong and also chaotic with this system, like you have sometimes spells which gets damage from str. instead of intellect or vice versa and "melee" CCs that are immune from magic shield.

[/quote]

You seem not to realise some enemys have physical resistance. Examine the Genie if you happen to meet him in combat ;]
Posted By: Sergey Butsenov Re: Poll on the armor system - 21/09/17 12:58 PM
problem is not just you cant CC them all. Real problem is ineffectiveness of player's parties where 2 parts of it dealing different damage type, so enemy gets doubled advantage in defence (to CC or just to kill). It's not about difficulty, it's about that the game, which claims total freedom, forces you to play with only physical or only elemental party to be more effective. That's dumb. Just dumb. Dumber than taunt that is not work because of armor so it have no use now...
Looks like i have to wait another year for D:OS 2 EE. Maybe then devs would realize that and change it for some more reasonable concept.
Posted By: Elidan Re: Poll on the armor system - 21/09/17 01:51 PM
[quote=Sergey Butsenov] ... It's not about difficulty, it's about that the game, which claims total freedom, forces you to play with only physical or only elemental party to be more effective... [/quote]

Not at all true for my friends and me. We are a hybrid team, playing blind and therefor doubtfully optimized very well (case in point, just found out how initiative works today, having essentially wasted about 5-10 attribute points across the party), and we are doing fine on tactitian mode. It was very hard in the beginning, when still in rags, but after fort joy it's not hard but doable. We very rarely die anymore and only rarely needs to reload a fight.

But who knows, it might get worse later in the game, tho I've seen people stating otherwise as well.
Posted By: Linio Re: Poll on the armor system - 21/09/17 02:22 PM
Originally Posted by Elidan
Originally Posted by Sergey Butsenov
... It's not about difficulty, it's about that the game, which claims total freedom, forces you to play with only physical or only elemental party to be more effective...


Not at all true for my friends and me. We are a hybrid team, playing blind and therefor doubtfully optimized very well (case in point, just found out how initiative works today, having essentially wasted about 5-10 attribute points across the party), and we are doing fine on tactitian mode. It was very hard in the beginning, when still in rags, but after fort joy it's not hard but doable. We very rarely die anymore and only rarely needs to reload a fight.

But who knows, it might get worse later in the game, tho I've seen people stating otherwise as well.


Again, the problem mentioned by Sergey is not difficulty, but the fact that to optimize (the word "force" is maybe going a little bit far) your party, it would be "easier" with a party with only one type of damage. Which is to be fair mostly true.
Posted By: Sergey Butsenov Re: Poll on the armor system - 21/09/17 02:23 PM
Originally Posted by Elidan

Not at all true for my friends and me. We are a hybrid team

What is not true? I didn't tell that you can't play with that. Re-read my message and try to play all 4 phys-DD party and you gonna do what you already did much easier.
Posted By: Hiver Re: Poll on the armor system - 21/09/17 08:15 PM
Originally Posted by Xaelyn
I made a mod that makes most of the lesser debuffs apply through armour. All hard CC still needs armour to be destroyed.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1139858748


Excellent.

Even such a relatively small change will add a lot to the gameplay.

Posted By: Kalrakh Re: Poll on the armor system - 21/09/17 08:35 PM
You can delete posts yourself?
Posted By: Hiver Re: Poll on the armor system - 21/09/17 09:13 PM
Originally Posted by Kalrakh
You can delete posts yourself?

Forgot its a part of the edit options, and exactly where. See it now.

Posted By: Hassat Hunter Re: Poll on the armor system - 21/09/17 11:51 PM
I pretty much railed on armor on EA's release, but the PvP crowd bashed me into the ground and started throwing around insults since while the system sucks for SP, it's great for PvP. Shame I hate PvP and want a SP-game... apparently something not granted to me by the sheer hostility PvP brings (really, is that needed? Can't we get along. You do realise that hostility also turns a lot of people off of said games). Anyway enough said about that what was discussed months and months ago.

I was hoping it would have been improved, but guess not frown. Having to churn armor then CC every time is just boring. Randomness in combat keeps things fresh in SP, you know, the 100h campaign. Sure you don't need it in your 10m PvP match, but well, maybe you can see how that wont last interest for 600x the duration?

It's pretty much what happens if balance resolves around PvP in a Single-Player game, it never turns out well. In the best instance, what's needed is a seperate PvP system (this armor) and a SP-system (where randomness can manifest, and combat is not all samey due to armor requiring you to do the same thing over and over).

But yeah, said that at launch, guess that wasn't early enough yet. So here I am saying it once more, just cause.
Posted By: xenustehg Re: Poll on the armor system - 27/09/17 07:02 PM
The first game had so much interesting mechanics that you could use in fights and now they are all useless.
All mages do is apply statuses with their spells, the problem is mages can't do anything with their spells until the magic armor will be removed. Therefore all mages can do is attack with wands (because staffs are useless).

Current armor mechanic should be drastically changed or removed.
Posted By: Zherot Re: Poll on the armor system - 30/09/17 06:10 PM
Basically 83% of the people that voted know there is something wrong with the system currently, the rest are blind folded fanboys.
Posted By: Zherot Re: Poll on the armor system - 30/09/17 06:12 PM
Originally Posted by Hassat Hunter
I pretty much railed on armor on EA's release, but the PvP crowd bashed me into the ground and started throwing around insults since while the system sucks for SP, it's great for PvP. Shame I hate PvP and want a SP-game... apparently something not granted to me by the sheer hostility PvP brings (really, is that needed? Can't we get along. You do realise that hostility also turns a lot of people off of said games). Anyway enough said about that what was discussed months and months ago.

I was hoping it would have been improved, but guess not frown. Having to churn armor then CC every time is just boring. Randomness in combat keeps things fresh in SP, you know, the 100h campaign. Sure you don't need it in your 10m PvP match, but well, maybe you can see how that wont last interest for 600x the duration?

It's pretty much what happens if balance resolves around PvP in a Single-Player game, it never turns out well. In the best instance, what's needed is a seperate PvP system (this armor) and a SP-system (where randomness can manifest, and combat is not all samey due to armor requiring you to do the same thing over and over).

But yeah, said that at launch, guess that wasn't early enough yet. So here I am saying it once more, just cause.


I fucking KNEW IT, it was the pvp, another great example of how multiplayer ruin sinlge player games.

I fucking KNEW IT.
Posted By: Horrorscope Re: Poll on the armor system - 30/09/17 06:22 PM
Can I be the hero of the day?

I can make a mod like in 15 minutes to address this.

If this is what you want.

Remove the ARMOR and Add some to Vitality.
(Or the mods approach above where conditions ignore the armor)

The laborious work on the user end is this:
Go to Workshop and click Subscribe to this Mod, name will be shared later.
In game click Mods, click this mod.
Play game with no armor and more vitality.

Ok then, tell me what you would like me to bump Vitality to on each difficulty level.
This can be done and done quickly, your lives can find peace.

Here is the poll as of my posting:


[Linked Image]

That isn't any type of major lambaste against the current. Only 9% hate it and liking DOS1 better, doesn't mean you hate DOS2. I went with like and tweaks.... everything can be tweaked. And as we know, most people will play the game totally oblivious to all this chit chat on the matter and most will be very ok with it if they like the game and 94% are liking.

All that should matter to us is what we like and not something where "What I like everyone should like!". So if we can give you a mod that addresses your issue... take it and be happy.
Posted By: Bokajon Re: Poll on the armor system - 30/09/17 07:11 PM
Originally Posted by Horrorscope
And as we know, most people will play the game totally oblivious to all this chit chat on the matter and most will be very ok with it if they like the game and 94% are liking.

All that should matter to us is what we like and not something where "What I like everyone should like!". So if we can give you a mod that addresses your issue... take it and be happy.

So true.

The funny thing is that there are already mods on the Workshop that address the armor system, for people who don't like it. Just use those mods if you don't like the vanilla system. That's the awesome thing about mods and that's what they are there for.
Posted By: Alexstrasza Re: Poll on the armor system - 30/09/17 09:35 PM
So cool, the poll is at almost 800 votes!

Originally Posted by Bokajon

The funny thing is that there are already mods on the Workshop that address the armor system, for people who don't like it. Just use those mods if you don't like the vanilla system. That's the awesome thing about mods and that's what they are there for.


I absolutely refuse to use mods, because Larian disables your ability to earn achievements with them enabled. Once I have earned all of my achievements (I'm almost there!) then I can finally use mods and fix the game, lol.
Posted By: Zherot Re: Poll on the armor system - 30/09/17 09:37 PM
Originally Posted by Alexstrasza
So cool, the poll is at almost 800 votes!

Originally Posted by Bokajon

The funny thing is that there are already mods on the Workshop that address the armor system, for people who don't like it. Just use those mods if you don't like the vanilla system. That's the awesome thing about mods and that's what they are there for.


I absolutely refuse to use mods, because Larian disables your ability to earn achievements with them enabled. Once I have earned all of my achievements (I'm almost there!) then I can finally use mods and fix the game, lol.


Yeah i don't want to use mods either, but i also don't enjoy the game in it's current state.

Let me tell you something really really sad... there is so much things wrong with the game that not even with mods you will be able to fix them.

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