Larian Studios
Posted By: gaymer Definitive Edition Difficulty Mode - 01/07/18 01:32 PM
For someone who has several hundred hours of play, I wish that tactician mode was harder.

I remember in DOS:EE that some fights in tactician featured more enemies or random surprises that happened in the middle of fights.

In DOS2 this was just more stats and HP on enemies. This was not a big enough challenge to experienced people.

Also, the gold and EXP was too high which made the mode not as hard as intended.

Make tactician truly more difficult or change honour mode to actually raise difficulty because the experienced players are not challenged by tactician.

It's a joke
Posted By: Stabbey Re: Definitive Edition Difficulty Mode - 02/07/18 02:26 AM
Concrete suggestions on how to change it would be more helpful, because there is an incredible variety in player skill and experience. Some people struggle on explorer, others sleepwalk through Tactician.

What kinds of changes would you like to see to make the game more challenging?
Posted By: Try2Handing Re: Definitive Edition Difficulty Mode - 02/07/18 04:49 AM
Simple: if more HP is not enough, then EVEN MORE HP 8)

Or there's a formula used by Baldur's Gate: all damage done by enemies is doubled.

Maybe a combination of both...?

There's a mod that does this: randomly promoting enemies to "elite" rank and giving them random permanent buffs. Dragon Age Inquisition's Trials has a similar feature that can be toggled on/off.

Or add a global +1 or +2 to all enemies' level. This can be seriously broken though, I'm not sure.
Posted By: gaymer Re: Definitive Edition Difficulty Mode - 03/07/18 11:13 PM
I would like more of the things from DOS:EE Tactician: elemental immunity, elemental wards, surprise adds during fights, new summons, more enemies, more abilities.
Posted By: shadow85 Re: Definitive Edition Difficulty Mode - 05/07/18 02:31 AM
So the definitie editions adds a easier mode but not a harder one??

Cmon Larian, please add a more harder mode than tactician and not the Honour Mode 1 save style.
Posted By: Seraphael Re: Definitive Edition Difficulty Mode - 12/07/18 06:56 PM
Was wishing for a mode that added more enemies (without affecting the xp progression) instead of making them HP-piñatas. I absolutely hate it when the AI cheats.
Posted By: JetNLoad Re: Definitive Edition Difficulty Mode - 13/07/18 08:55 AM
It would be great if Larian would add additional difficulty. On my second playthrough, even the Honor mode felt easy. But I doubt they would do that - too much effort and there's plenty of noobies who are having a hard time even on normal while trying to faceroll over all the encounters, without even thinking of trying to find another path. So I guess, again only mods could help us.
Posted By: Tredvolt Re: Definitive Edition Difficulty Mode - 24/07/18 05:07 PM
I'm in a similar boat - my friends and I love this game and we've really come to master the various fights and builds with a hefty amount of meta knowledge and testing. We feel that the tactician mode is far too easy (not from a boastful standpoint - we SHOULD be able to beat it easily if we have that much practice). My point is that many of us who love the game and have played a crazy amount of it search desperately through mods to find anything that makes the game very difficult despite having all that experience. We even have self imposed rules.

- We don't allow more than 3 characters
- We don't allow lone wolf
- We don't allow 5 of the more broken spells
- We don't allow prebuffing fights

...and several others, you get the idea.

SUGGESTIONS FOR MORE DIFFICULTY

Overwhelmingly we feel that too much experience is provided. We feel getting to level 4 or 5 is a fine pace but beyond that we have to actively avoid getting experience just to not outlevel everything. This doesn't feel good. I think that if there was some box we could click on the difficulty setting that said "1/2 XP GAIN" before you started a game, it would SOLVE SO MUCH. We want to feel like we need to scour the land for every drop of xp - showing true mastery of the game by completing a larger percentage of the quests and exploring a larger percentage of the game.

Increased Hit Points can help. Although usually at higher difficulties our parties focus on infinite CC loops and so more hit points aren't that hard to deal with.

Teleport to players. I love the terrain advantages (especially with height) in the system but I think it is too easy. Throw some spider goop on a pack of melees and a chest in front of a ladder and then fall asleep while you kill everything at zero threat. I wonder if it would be possible to have a large AP cost spell that allows enemies to move to a player. Just a thought.

Lower gold availability - and reduce the value of charm arrows sold to merchants. We buy every arrow/arrow head and use an infinite supply of honey in act 2 to have ridiculous amounts of gold. A lot of the merchant farming comes from having so much gold, we constantly refresh merchants to find that slightly better item. It is tedious. In earlier runs when we didnt have enough gold we didn't spend nearly so much time shopping. It was actually more fun not having access to everything all the time.

------------

I realize your fanatical players are a smaller percentage of your player base - but we are also the percentage of your base that keep coming back, participate in the community and bully our friends that haven't heard of these games into buying and playing with us. We are the ones that vote in online polls, we are the ones that write reviews, walkthroughs and guides. As a nearly 40 year old gamer that has experienced 100s of games, I can say that Divnity 2 is nearing the absolute top of more entertaining games - and falls short ONLY on available difficulty level. This is legitimately the ONLY thing keeping it from the absolute highest ranks of multiplayer rpg. Mods help but Larian should have an INSANE difficulty that provides a standard to all of us.

Thanks for hearing me out!
Posted By: Stabbey Re: Definitive Edition Difficulty Mode - 24/07/18 06:28 PM
So you are exploiting mechanics to abuse the game, and then... complain that mechanics exist that let you abuse the game?

If you want more difficulty, you could try NOT abusing the game.
Posted By: Tredvolt Re: Definitive Edition Difficulty Mode - 24/07/18 07:25 PM
@Stabbey I don't want to derail the topic, but I believe the logic is consistent. Ideally I want to work within the boundaries of the game and take every advantage I can from the set of rules presented. Arbitrarily limiting ourselves is a practice we already use, but it gets a little fuzzy at times and is ultimately subjective and starts to break the immersion of the system.

For example if you are referring to selling crafted arrows for profit being abuse, then is selling any crafted item an abuse if we find that it sells for more than the sum of its parts? Rather than say "well just don't do that" wouldn't it be better if the devs looked at some resold items that were perhaps returning too high of margins and toned them down a bit?

I want to push the boundaries of any system. If we find something that gives too much of an advantage we tend to remove it from our strategy as it lowers the fun. After a while if there are too many big advantage strats then what we really have is a cumbersome list of rules to follow.

The original suggestions were for increasing some of the difficulty in tactician or creating a difficulty above tactician for those of us that want a more difficult experience without having to placing too many artificial limitations.

If it can improve the game for a lot of us without taking anything from other difficulties and without creating too much work for the devs then I don't really see any down side.

Posted By: gaymer Re: Definitive Edition Difficulty Mode - 25/07/18 12:55 AM
I would like it to be 75-80% of EXP earned for our characters and more enemies OR they have another 30-50% more armour.
Posted By: Tredvolt Re: Definitive Edition Difficulty Mode - 25/07/18 01:23 AM
Due to how the experience ends up scaling to levels 75%-80% would have a very minimal effect. It would be better than nothing - but I've played with the mod that removes 75% exp and even that seems to barely stop the levels coming in. I know that seems crazy but take a look at the level chart.

Ideally exp reduction would keep you about 2 levels below what we normally hit after the first island. I'd say hitting the end of the 1st act at level 7 should be the lowest you'd want to aim for.

As for armor - I'm all for that as a component of the "insane" difficulty.

+%hit points
+%armor
-%money
-%exp

Just my opinion but I think that could be great.
Posted By: shadow85 Re: Definitive Edition Difficulty Mode - 27/07/18 11:26 AM
Do the devs here listen?
Posted By: Stabbey Re: Definitive Edition Difficulty Mode - 27/07/18 12:42 PM
They listen to many things, that doesn't mean they act on everything. If there was going to be a harder difficulty mode added, they would have mentioned that in one of the recent updates.

Because they have not, that means there won't be one when the DE releases. That does not rule out the chance that they might add a harder mode to the DE some time after release, but it does make it less likely.

And honestly there is such a wide variety of player skill that finding a harder difficulty which would be good enough would be difficult. You have people who complain that Explorer was still too hard, and at the other end of the spectrum you have Qiox who boasts that he beats honor difficulty without using any magic schools or any healing except food.
Posted By: The Composer Re: Definitive Edition Difficulty Mode - 27/07/18 01:01 PM
To be honest, I doubt there ever will. A higher difficulty mode may make sense to you who may have found the cheesiest way of manipulating the game mechanics into making it easy, but you're of the 0.1% esque playerbase. The majority of players finds even classic mode satisfyingly challenging. Some have even complained it's too difficult.

So if you take into account the amount of work required to make an even higher difficulty mode that isn't only a stat-increase more hp/damage ordeal in order to cater to such a small audience that only exists because they meme the hell out of their sandbox'ey system and then complain about the game being too easy because they're cheesing it out, to me sounds like a bit of backwards thinking if I'm to be very blunt.

They could of course attempt something similar to what I'm attempting in one of the new systems in my mod, which basically tries to detect methods of cheesing and reacting upon it, nullifying the whole cheese thing. Which by nature makes the game harder again. But that goes a bit against their combat design philosophy as you're 'meant' to find those weaknesses, play around and see how well you're able to manage yourself in the world of Rivellon.

Don't be sad that the game is easy. Be happy that you're badass 😎
Posted By: gaymer Re: Definitive Edition Difficulty Mode - 28/07/18 09:54 AM
Yeah, it's just lazy/ridiculous to me that Honour Mode is basically tactician but with permanent death.

Why not make Honour Mode with even harder enemies, lower EXP, and different features and maybe drop the permanent death or even still keep it on.

Tactician in this game is honestly not hard at all.
Posted By: Kalrakh Re: Definitive Edition Difficulty Mode - 28/07/18 09:34 PM
Death is also only permanent, if the complete team gets killed.
Posted By: Tredvolt Re: Definitive Edition Difficulty Mode - 28/07/18 10:28 PM
Having more options for your player base is going to be better. I don't think anyone can reasonably argue to take away options (e.g. remove difficulties, remove spells, remove classes) and so I would think the inverse would be true. There seems to be quite a lot of people who would be interested in some sort of higher difficulty without having to use a bunch of mods. The mods are still available to go beyond that point of course.

That being said...........

I think the biggest issue in a higher difficulty is not "would it make the game better" but rather does it make sense for Larian to do so from a time perspective. Some of the suggestions have frankly been rather greedy and not at all realistic, and while personally I love the creativity - I just don't see it being feasible.

I think Stabbey had a good point in another thread about everything with the definitive edition being wrapped up by now so nothing we suggest is going to make it into that outside of a patch. Assuming this is the case - any difficulty suggestion would likely need to be something on the scale of what goes into a patch.

I'll advocate for a higher difficulty for the rest of my days but I also understand we need to be realistic. And, while there are a lot of us interested in a fancy higher difficulty we might want to keep our suggestions very simple if there is any chance in them being adopted.

To that end...........

My suggestion still remains a significant decrease in (EXP, GOLD) for players and a significant increase in (ARMOR, HEALTH) for enemies. I could be wrong but I imagine something like this could be done very simply and could be achieved with a check box on tactician rather than a whole new difficulty name.

I realize to some this just doesn't seem like a priority to them, and they enjoy the current difficulty options - but many of us who are looking for more of a challenge feel it could make a big difference. If the shoe was on the other foot, and I was in a thread advocating the addition of some element that was meaningless to me, but seemed to have a strong following - I would at least be neutral if not supportive of their efforts. After all I think we all want the game to be as good as it can be, allowing people of all different types of gaming preferences to enjoy themselves.

After completing countless campaigns over absolutely ridiculous amounts of hours - my group of friends feel that having the greater challenge would increase our enjoyment considerably.

@Larian - I know everyone asks this but it would be great if you gave us some of your thoughts on this concept. If it isn't something you guys are interested in doing I'll stop posting about it laugh. Thanks regardless!
Posted By: vometia Re: Definitive Edition Difficulty Mode - 29/07/18 10:57 AM
Originally Posted by Tredvolt
Having more options for your player base is going to be better. I don't think anyone can reasonably argue to take away options (e.g. remove difficulties, remove spells, remove classes) and so I would think the inverse would be true. There seems to be quite a lot of people who would be interested in some sort of higher difficulty without having to use a bunch of mods. The mods are still available to go beyond that point of course.

You'd be surprised: some people have been quite insistent about removing the "easier" difficulties. Because apparently the risk of alienating a chunk of Larian's player base is somehow a good idea... somehow. Likewise removing functionality they claim to not use, e.g. save anywhere as often as you want.
Posted By: Horrorscope Re: Definitive Edition Difficulty Mode - 30/07/18 05:04 PM
I agree it would be nice for the to really balance this all out, but most things mentioned aren't all that hard to modify and if/when you get it done you could share and give us all the adjustments in details.
Posted By: shadow85 Re: Definitive Edition Difficulty Mode - 30/07/18 07:47 PM
Tactician starts of tough, but midway through ACTII and you can already push over almost all enemies.
Posted By: Froggy Re: Definitive Edition Difficulty Mode - 06/08/18 02:26 PM
I honestly find it quite disheartening to see how people typically react, to those who merely ask for a challenge without the need to impede themselfs with an artificial handicap. Similar to what others have already described, there are many strategies that can be applied to any given situation and yield the same result. I tried out many different compositions, and the end result is that; far too many of them are just too effective for any given encounter.

But again, what i really don't grasp is how people judge those that voice their concern with this issue. And some of them even take the time and effort describing their issues with the game's difficulty. But this is usually met with snide remarks, as to how "cheesy" they are and should stop using those stratagies. However, unless their is clearly an issue regarding said tactic in terms of overlooked design flaws or out right bugged, then this SHOULD be a tool they are able to take advantage of.

In my experience, i had made a certain comp so effective that i could win EVERY single battle in less than 3 turns. And there was no use of any "cheesy" stratagies that are not intended. But my main issue is that; it's just one of the compositions i made, it's just the best one. And this doesn't require:

1. pre battle buffs.
2. pre battle unit setup.
3. pre battle stealth.
4. first cast.
5. knowledge of the enemy.
6. knowledge of the surroundings.
7. Lone Wolf.
8. Level advantage.
9. kiting.
10. Good gear.
11. Flasks/pots/food
12. ETC

It's a simple composition that contains 1 tank/support, 1 healer/support, 1 Rogue/assasin/outlaw/whatever, and a spellcaster. All it requires is for you to plan 3 turns ahead of time, min max your Action/source points, cast spells in the correct sequence, and how far you can reach. And those are the fundamentals. Which spells, buffs, classes,etc you pick afterwards are not important. There are alot of spells that are OP, but this comp doesn't use those on the "cheesy" list.

And this is exactly my problem. I'm not able to finish this game past the start of Act 3, simply because winning every single battle the exact same way is insanely boring. I'm a player that doesn't care about Lore, Story or any of that sort of stuff. (Blasphemy, i know) What hooked me in was the start of the game where you feel that the game is quite challenging at first, but i think this only due to the lack of options and skills at your disposal. So yeah, obviously if i have 3-4 skills, and no level advantage then naturally i'm going to be limited, and therefore have a harder time. The main issue with this game, in terms of difficulty, is that of scaling.

All i want personally is to always be challenged in every single scenario.The game encourages players to think outside of the box, but once you start to get a little too clever, you'll just ruin the fun for the rest of the game.
And i've already stated that i don't use any "cheesy" spells, tacts or list of other shit, but i WANT to feel the need to use those in order to beat the encounter. There are so many things i know that i could be doing but i know that will make things even worse in terms of kill speed, and being left unstatisfied.

But those, like me, are almost being ridiculed only because we would like to experience a proper challenge. Some people automatically assume that we're trying to boast our 'mad skillz', but this is far from the truth in my case and that of others. We just want to have fun like everyone else, and that which is too difficult for one is easy for the other. Personally, i couldn't care less about people that are worse or better than me. I only want to play on a difficulty that suits my needs. And in this case, the game is FAR too easy.

Some suggestions have been made regarding armor, HP buffs and Xp + gold nerfs, which would be a good start, But are not going to be enough without making them feel kinda silly. A much more elegant solution would require far more than that, which is simply something don't expect at all in the Definitive Edition. But would hope to see in future titles. Even though it's true that people that feel the same as me are in the 0.001% of the gaming community. But there are also those who are still finding the game too easy, and are not looking to use every possible advantage that a harder difficulty would appeal to.

I only made this post because i thought it was quite disgusting to see how people that simply want to have a little more challenge, are being treated like dirt. One can only assume that these people are either suffering from low esteem, or perceive the message to be a form of boasting. But if people that find the game too hard are being heard, then why shouldn't we recieve the same treatment? (besides resource constraints)



Posted By: miaasma Re: Definitive Edition Difficulty Mode - 06/08/18 08:42 PM
who's treating who like dirt? the only responses i saw were people saying it was unlikely that Larian would implement this and that it certainly wouldn't be in the definitive edition if they haven't already announced it

i'm not saying i'd be against this - like people have said, more options can't be a bad thing - but it's true that the people who complain that this game is too easy are in the incredible minority, and unlike a game being too hard, a game being too easy is something that is at least partially fixable for the player by playing the game with added self-imposed restraints. sure, it feels artificial, but there will always be people who learn the system well enough to game it properly; a harder mode won't solve this and i can guarantee that less than a week from its release there would be people complaining that it's still not hard enough

whereas an easier mode addresses a more commonly seen issue that some people who want to enjoy this game casually are experiencing, and i tend to empathize with them more because you can only do so much to make something easy for yourself, at the end of the day if the game is hard enough for you on the easiest difficulty that it impedes your enjoyment of it then you probably aren't going to want to experience all it has to offer, and this is especially true for people who are new to this genre of game and want to test the waters without looking everything up and playing 100% optimally

anyway i really don't think anyone disagreeing was being disrespectful or even unreasonable. the most you can accuse them of is being pragmatic
Posted By: Try2Handing Re: Definitive Edition Difficulty Mode - 06/08/18 09:10 PM
Originally Posted by Froggy
In my experience, i had made a certain comp so effective that i could win EVERY single battle in less than 3 turns. And there was no use of any "cheesy" stratagies that are not intended. But my main issue is that; it's just one of the compositions i made, it's just the best one. And this doesn't require:

1. pre battle buffs.
2. pre battle unit setup.
3. pre battle stealth.
4. first cast.
5. knowledge of the enemy.
6. knowledge of the surroundings.
7. Lone Wolf.
8. Level advantage.
9. kiting.
10. Good gear.
11. Flasks/pots/food
12. ETC


Interesting. I would love to see how someone beat fights like the ones against The Eternal Aetera or the lizard assassins in act 2 or Adramahlihk or the endgame fight in under 3 turns WITHOUT #4 #5 AND #6.
Posted By: BlueFeuer Re: Definitive Edition Difficulty Mode - 06/08/18 11:29 PM
Originally Posted by Try2Handing
Interesting. I would love to see how someone beat fights like the ones against The Eternal Aetera or the lizard assassins in act 2 or Adramahlihk or the endgame fight in under 3 turns WITHOUT #4 #5 AND #6.


Somewhat proving his point here. Sorry to say but unfortunately it's not even that hard once you understand the game's mechanics. Adramahlihk was beat in under 3 turns without even doing the quest to debuff him in my playthrough.
Just because you don't know how doesn't mean everyone else can't. I've seen this type of argument before and unfortunately it only holds up with ignorance.

I've tried to stay out of this argument but a lot of people really are against adding a harder difficulty for some reason. I don't see how it would hurt anyone in any way, and people have suggested changes for the mode that could be made by Larian in a day. I think it would be a step in the right direction for people like Froggy and I who simply want a (In my case, brutally) challenging game and don't care as much about the story or whatnot.

Unfortunately I don't believe that any mode Larian adds will be enough to cover up the issues the game has in combat, so I'll continue working on my overhaul to make the game what I believe it should have been.
Posted By: Try2Handing Re: Definitive Edition Difficulty Mode - 07/08/18 12:13 AM
Originally Posted by BlueFeuer

Somewhat proving his point here. Sorry to say but unfortunately it's not even that hard once you understand the game's mechanics. Adramahlihk was beat in under 3 turns without even doing the quest to debuff him in my playthrough.
Just because you don't know how doesn't mean everyone else can't. I've seen this type of argument before and unfortunately it only holds up with ignorance.

I've tried to stay out of this argument but a lot of people really are against adding a harder difficulty for some reason. I don't see how it would hurt anyone in any way, and people have suggested changes for the mode that could be made by Larian in a day. I think it would be a step in the right direction for people like Froggy and I who simply want a (In my case, brutally) challenging game and don't care as much about the story or whatnot.

Unfortunately I don't believe that any mode Larian adds will be enough to cover up the issues the game has in combat, so I'll continue working on my overhaul to make the game what I believe it should have been.


I wasn't emphasizing the "under 3 turns" part as much as the "without #4 #5 and #6". The thing is, #5 and #6 can only exist in your first playthrough ever, the first time or couple first times you attempt an encounter - when you really have no knowledge of both the enemies and the surroundings. You're telling me you beat Adramahlihk in under 3 turns in your first playthrough, FIRST try? Cause from the second try onward, #5 and #6 kinda cease to exist. Otherwise, there's no need to argue, cause I beat him in under 3 turns without weakening him in my first playthrough too, but it took a fair bit of strategizing AFTER I knew what to expect. And you only singled out Adramahlihk - what about EVERY other fight? You beat them all in under 3 turns in your very first playthrough, all in your first try? Why am I asking these questions? Because that's what Froggy was saying in his post: "i could win EVERY single battle in less than 3 turns", WITHOUT all the elements he listed.

Now that that's out of the way, just so we're on the same page: I don't count myself among those who are against adding harder difficulties. I beat Veteran and do feel like it could be harder. But tbh I won't complain regardless of whether Larian is going to do anything about the game's difficulty or not. So there's really no need to quote me and argue with me about this particular issue. The point of my previous post, was to express a bit of doubt toward what Froggy described in his post. It was never about all this "making the game harder or not" drama.

EDIT: And yes, while I have a bit of doubt about Froggy's post, when I said I'd love to see how he manages to do all that, I meant it - I would love to see the kind of tactics he came up with. Now, I'd love to hear how my previous post "Somewhat proving his point here", when our "points" are about totally different things. But I guess my previous post easily sounds like it comes from some "casuls" who struggle on Explorer and hate on anyone who doesn't find the game hard enough - no offense meant to any who finds Explorer hard.
Posted By: Froggy Re: Definitive Edition Difficulty Mode - 07/08/18 02:27 PM
Originally Posted by miaasma
who's treating who like dirt? the only responses i saw were people saying it was unlikely that Larian would implement this and that it certainly wouldn't be in the definitive edition if they haven't already announced it

i'm not saying i'd be against this - like people have said, more options can't be a bad thing - but it's true that the people who complain that this game is too easy are in the incredible minority, and unlike a game being too hard, a game being too easy is something that is at least partially fixable for the player by playing the game with added self-imposed restraints. sure, it feels artificial, but there will always be people who learn the system well enough to game it properly; a harder mode won't solve this and i can guarantee that less than a week from its release there would be people complaining that it's still not hard enough

whereas an easier mode addresses a more commonly seen issue that some people who want to enjoy this game casually are experiencing, and i tend to empathize with them more because you can only do so much to make something easy for yourself, at the end of the day if the game is hard enough for you on the easiest difficulty that it impedes your enjoyment of it then you probably aren't going to want to experience all it has to offer, and this is especially true for people who are new to this genre of game and want to test the waters without looking everything up and playing 100% optimally

anyway i really don't think anyone disagreeing was being disrespectful or even unreasonable. the most you can accuse them of is being pragmatic
Posted By: Froggy Re: Definitive Edition Difficulty Mode - 07/08/18 03:23 PM
Originally Posted by miaasma
who's treating who like dirt? the only responses i saw were people saying it was unlikely that Larian would implement this and that it certainly wouldn't be in the definitive edition if they haven't already announced it


Just to clarify a little more on this; This is includes topics on forums such as Steam, Reddit, etc. Whenever there is a post regarding the difficulty being too easy, there is practically always some people that automatically assume that the OP is either Boasting, lying, or cheesing the game. And eventhough that it might be true that he is, it doesn't mean that the game is very easy if know how to take advantage of all the tools being presented.

It's just that, when i noticed similar remarks and arguments again't why someone should use [insert spell here] or [insert tactic here] because that is considered cheesy. And even though the spell or tactic in question is to OP, those people seem to miss the point entirely to what some players really want. And that is to pretty much use every little advantage we can come up with to overcome an encounter.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

As for what tactic i use that i beat every encounter with in 3 turns in detail would take more effort than i'm willing to spend writing it down. However, i can give you a summery:

1. I use a High single target Melee stealth class
2. A Caster with high hydromancy
3. A Healer/Support to Buff and use Crowd Control.
4. A Tank/Support to act as target dummy to keep units grouped, and to provide all the other buffs that the healers doesn't bring.
5. Both the Caster and the Melee have Glass cannon, and execute talents.
6.The Caster is Fane because of the extra turn and Cheat Death.
7.Fane NEEDS to start first.

Then to very roughly explain the first turn: use every buff possible on the Caster, get Fane on the high ground, then cast any buffs that he might be missing that are unique (like the demon form from having to many source points when meeting Jahan), and lastly cast stealth or Cheat Death. (while being as efficient with your points as possible)

Then it's a matter of getting the A.I to swarm the Healer/or Tank. ideally, getting them as low as possible (health wise) to swap with the Caster, and use the necromancer spell to increase damage based on missing health. Also your melee should also be in stealth.

Then, Turn 2 starts. Fane and the Melee will delay their turn. With the healer being my last unit, he/she will cast rain. And, at the end of the turn the Melee should be placed close enough to utilize their action points to the fullest while not being to close to the group or boss.

When it's Fane's turn, use teleport, and nether swap on your tank and healer to group up casters or ranged units, and then swap the rain surface onto Fane. (for the free action points) then cast the spell that grants unlimited source points, and it's simply a matter of: Cast High Cost/Cooldown spells, use flay skin when it's possible, and when you have no points left, Cast Time warp.

After Time Warp, Cast the spell that removes all the cooldowns, make sure you plan out which units to finish off from execution points. (2 per turn) lastly finish your turn, right into Turn 3. Which, ofcourse is where Fane starts first, And this is the point where everything is pretty much already dead in a non boss scenario.

On bosses it's the same, but you use turn 3 with Fane by casting the left over spells, and actually using your Melee single target damage dealer. which, in non boss fights, is only there to kill any stray units in turn 2 and 3.

And this is just the general concept. (Setup and Destroy) And since the extra turn for Fane is technically playing him twice in one turn, this still means EVERYTHING dies in 3 turns.

And yes this is the short version. And stopped bothering typing that down. It requires alot of planning ahead, but once you figure out a good combo, it's a matter of executing it properly every encounter. Bosses and normal encounters only get 1 turn to do anything at all. And even then, only against a full plated tank and healer.
But this sucks the fun out of the game, so... yeah. To be honest though, it's very entertaining to make a build like that. Just a little boring to kill bosses without seeing what they do. Also, the game used to freeze everytime i used time warp at the end of my turn. (which they fixed a while ago)

When the Update is live, i'll start a new game and see if anything has changed. If not, i'll prolly make a video of the combo.

And i really want to stress that this is not anything i'm "boasting" about at all. I just don't want my fun in the game to vanish because i made a comp that is too effective. Which is pretty backwards.

P.S

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Posted By: The Composer Re: Definitive Edition Difficulty Mode - 07/08/18 03:32 PM
I fail to see how the game is easy with that statement. The planning and knowledge to run such a planned out series of action is half the challenge on its own.
Posted By: Kalrakh Re: Definitive Edition Difficulty Mode - 07/08/18 07:32 PM
One of the my biggest concerns since EA:

At some point you will have every skill you need for your tactic and therefore combat will turn very static and repetative, because:

A. Character developement got pretty dumbed down: no influence on how much AP you have and gain, attributes pretty much only increase damage, nothing else, skill tree don't offer additional benefits on higher skill level (no reduced cost or other stuff)
B. ridiculous low requirements to learn high level skills, therefore you don't need any kind of dedication


With making AP static in the second game they killed most of their options to make character development more interesting and worthwile and they failed to come up with a replacement or did not even try.
Posted By: Try2Handing Re: Definitive Edition Difficulty Mode - 07/08/18 09:08 PM
Originally Posted by The Composer
I fail to see how the game is easy with that statement. The planning and knowledge to run such a planned out series of action is half the challenge on its own.


Quite. It's another story if you find the game easy even when playing casually, trying out various tools on the fly, making mistakes now and then, without relying on any ultra secret super strong combos and without any exploits. But when it's a case of extreme powergaming, there isn't much merit in your claim that the game is too easy. You figured out one single most efficient party combination, along with a very specific procedure on what to do and when, which is to be applied in every single encounter - well, good for you. But to claim that the game is "easy" based on this, is rather silly.

In this case, what you're asking for is not simply "a harder difficulty". You're asking for something that can completely shutdown powergaming. A modder with the same mindset might be willing to try and accomplish this, but there's no way the developers of the game would, or should.
Posted By: Stabbey Re: Definitive Edition Difficulty Mode - 08/08/18 01:34 AM
I agree with you on some parts, but I've recently gone back to playing DOS 1 EE and after playing with the large AP pool, I think Larian made a good decision to go to a "Two Standard Actions per turn" framework. AP costs in DOS 1 vary wildly and it isn't always clear why some skills cost X AP and others cast Y AP. I find myself not being able to do anything on my turn a lot more often than in DOS 2.

I was skeptical myself when I first heard the change to a 4 AP system, largely concerned about how it might hurt Rogues, but it worked out with both The Pawn and points in Scoundrel granting movement.
Posted By: shadow85 Re: Definitive Edition Difficulty Mode - 09/08/18 01:59 AM
Do the devs monitor these threads?

Would really like to know if they are going to include a higher difficulty mode than tactician, but NOT a single save type mode where it gets wiped.
Posted By: Stabbey Re: Definitive Edition Difficulty Mode - 09/08/18 03:12 AM
They have not announced a new higher difficulty mode, and if one existed, they would have mentioned it.

One of the previews I've seen mentions that they'll be making the later-game harder.

Posted By: drBrod Re: Definitive Edition Difficulty Mode - 10/08/18 02:59 PM
I think that dos2 isn't too easy, or too hard, i think is too binary. With binary i mean that is too easy to switch from hard to easy, when you figured out the important things.
The entire games is wrapped around binarity, mainly due to the armor system. It's either 100% chance or 0%.
Imho the difficulty go through the same process, and it feels really hard when some understandings of the game mechanics are missing, and it feels really easy when these understandings are clear.
It's hard to balance, because it's not a scalable difficult, it's either 0 or 100, like the armor system. If you, for example, improve monster hp, dmg, or something else, i think the difficult would remains the same, with veteran players sleepwalk through the game and beginners struggle even more.
Dunno guys, i've the feel that there are very few things that could improve the difficult system.

One of these things, imho, is the lone wolf talent. It's totally broken, really. I try to avoid it during my playthrough because it really made the game ultra easy, even with one single character.
A nerf/balance of that talent it would be welcome.
Posted By: Froggy Re: Definitive Edition Difficulty Mode - 10/08/18 07:31 PM
I'm well aware that adding a difficulty to the game for people that an experience like me is not realistic. Because, that would simply not be possible to achieve with todays technology in gaming, since the issue is caused by A.I limitations. If you where to try and 'brute force' difficult fights, the only way to achieve that currently is by increasing the amount of Damage and or Health/Armor the A.I is given, But this really is not a ideal way of doing things. The main issue being that, as we progress trough the game and obtain better gear, skills and knowledge we rapidly out pace the static difficulty modifiers. And at the time you reach Act 3, the units would require more than 300% Armor and Health to be comparable in difficulty to Fort Joy. So i'm quite certain that the only way to increase difficulty in a way that is ideal, would be by having a much better A.I that is unpredictable.

Anyway, i'm not saying that DoS2 is either too easy or too hard in general. However, as i'm playing the game and get learn how new spells work, it's common that you'll start to experiment with certain combinations of spells, buffs and debuffs to see what works well together. And some might find trying to optimize their group more interesting than others, but this where MY personal issue lies. The game offers you ALOT of ways to optimise your party, however there really is no point in doing so with the vast majority of options at your disposal in order to complete the game.

And this is what i would like to be the case. I'm the kind of person that likes to progress on a boss encounter, where you would try and use every little advantage you could think of in order to increase the odds of killing that boss. This is the feeling that had when i played the game for the first few hours on Slane the Frost Dragon in Act 1 while being one or two levels below him. And this was a much more enjoyable experience, mainly because i didn't know shit. But as the normal encounters became perdictable in behaviour, and bosses fights where beaten in a single attempt, the game lost what i liked about it.

And that is simply what i would like to experience throughout the entirety of the game. And while this is not a suitable, or even an enjoyable scenario for the vast majority of those who play the game, it's something i
would like to experience. And again, while i'm fully aware that such drastic measures would require an additional difficulty, which they have never mentioned besides Story Mode, is therefore extremely unlikely. It's worth the effort to atleast point out that players who like to min max everything in games, are finding the current content too easy, and simply ask for something more challenging without the means to 'Boast about ma leet skillz' or to suggest that game is too easy for everyone else in general.

Perhaps the one of the largest issue in my case is that none of the comps i produce are with the intent to min-max their performance. So when i came back later to the game, after several patches had been deployed, and feeling like i should give it a second chance with a different comp in mind, the same issues occur the moment you gain the ability to cast certain utility spells/skills. Which results in the game being 'too easy' for me from that very moment. And the amount of skills that i would classify as 'too strong' are substantial.

For example; When i listed the incomplete sequence of actions that would result in me being able to beat ever fight in 3 turns, i didn't mention the spells i have available to me for certain types of scenarios. Such as; Shackels of Pain, Living on the Edge, Bone Cage and Guardian Angel. Which might not seem significant, however, when used in combination with other armor buffs from the healer and skills like; Overpower or Reactive Armour, can then be used in conjunction with the High single target damage from the melee character to remove the physical armor, and to apply chain. What this means is that from that moment 3 of my chars are standing near the Boss, and since the Tank is going to direct 100% of the damage taken onto the boss whilst being unkillable due to Living on the Edge, will cause the Boss to take damage from:

1. The Caster in the third turn
2. The Tank trough Shackels of Pain
3. The Melee trough Guardian Angel, from The Tank trough Shackels of Pain
4. The Healer trough Guardian Angel, from The Tank trough Shackels of Pain
5. Potentially The Caster trough Guardian Angel, from The Tank trough Shackels of Pain (if stood close to the boss)

And while this could potentially kill both the healer and the melee, the boss would have already been overkilled to a absurd degree. And even though this might be seen as a form of min-max, To see these potential combinations of skills and combos, it's not something i'm actively looking for if there is no need for them. Usually what happens is that, when i try to kill a boss that i'm far too underleveled for to kill in any regular way, i'll look to optimise my comp by taking their synergy more serious and make alterations that force away anything that is simply not good enough. When that is done you have a comp that is optimised to a high level, but still no where near Min-Max levels. However, that comp which was made to overcome a boss that was tuned for later levels, managed to kill this encounter. Which means; that even at this level of Min-Max the game can't control it's power curve, forget full try-hard.

It's just a shame that this is the case. As it could've been much closer to what i'm asking for. But, the main thing they will add/change in tactician, if there is not going to be an added difficulty, is that they implement the A.I they deemed too "Brutal" for the players. Maybe trough some form of ingame interaction. In addition, perhaps letting players fight against a certain group of units or boss in the Arena of every act, and if that challenge is completed successfully, they could choose to give all remaining NPC units in the game additional or increased modifiers. For example:

ACT 1 : Gives all remaining NPC units in the game a Random buff. (Reflecting damage, damage increase, movement speed increase, additional action points, additional skills, temporal Shields etc) Which is randomly assigned, and could either be a perm buff or something they might occasionally proc.

ACT 2 : Additional Health, shield and damage modifiers ontop of the tactician modifiers.

ACT 2+ : Extra monster spawns

ACT 3 : Bosses take 50% reduced damage.

Now, obviously these are just some ideas that give you an idea of how this could work with relatively little effort. The fights itself however, should be at a level where they accurately portray the increase of difficulty if you defeat them. As to make sure that the game prevents them getting in the position of someone attempting the encounter, and wouldn't be able to progress trough the game afterwards, because the 'test fight' was too easy. Or an option to revert it, ofcourse.

In the end, if it doesn't happen than so be it. but you can't really complain about something in a game and expect them to fix it, if you don't point it out. Especially when so few people care about it. If major changes can be made to improve the enjoyment i can get out of the game without the need to allocate many resources, then great.






Posted By: Lojdika Re: Definitive Edition Difficulty Mode - 17/08/18 06:58 PM
I would argue that memory slots should be a far more scars resource, with a cap. Having a limited skill pool in a fight (like the ones in Act I) evens things up, regardless of level. This could be complemented with a swapping skill system mid fight, which could come, too, from memory slots.

7 Memory Slots: 5 for skills, 2 left for 2 swapping possible per fight (could be represented as a consumable skill). Numbers would require tweaking.
Posted By: Stabbey Re: Definitive Edition Difficulty Mode - 17/08/18 07:14 PM
Originally Posted by Lojdika
I would argue that memory slots should be a far more scars resource, with a cap. Having a limited skill pool in a fight (like the ones in Act I) evens things up, regardless of level. This could be complemented with a swapping skill system mid fight, which could come, too, from memory slots.

7 Memory Slots: 5 for skills, 2 left for 2 swapping possible per fight (could be represented as a consumable skill). Numbers would require tweaking.



I completely and utterly disagree. Memory is the most well-balanced attribute in the game. It needs no changes at all.

Memory can't be found on items other than a single unique, so to get a benefit from it, you need to spend points which would otherwise go to increasing your damage. It is a direct compromise of sacrificing power for utility.

There is always a limited skill pool, because there are always skills which could be useful but you can't afford to take because you don't have the memory slots.

Five skills in total, with two to swap in mid-combat? It would not be an exaggeration to say that such a change would require a complete redesign of the ENTIRE GAME. Every single thing which influences the combat would need to be scrapped and designed from the ground up, and the result would be a far more inflexible system full of cookie-cutter builds even MORE cookie-cutter than we get now, because some skills are just too good to not have, thus further limiting the possible loadout, and that is not counting the Healing, Escape, and Armor restoration skills. Take those and that'll leave you even fewer skills.

Give me Neverwinter Nights's Vancian Magic system before this whopper of a bad idea.

Your proposal is unworkable and would make mages completely and totally unplayable.

Nothing is stopping you from refusing to use more than 7 skill slots if you think that would be a neato self-challenge.
Posted By: Tredvolt Re: Definitive Edition Difficulty Mode - 17/08/18 10:23 PM
I think restricting memory is not the correct way to increase difficulty. It is self regulating. The more times I go through the game, the more I tend to reduce the amount of spells I use - HOWEVER it is a very fun aspect to have more versatility vs a slightly accelerated combat stat. I think this falls under the broad category of don't fix what isn't broken.

Basically if someone wants to have 30 skills and be all over the place - why not let them? Is it the best way to build (probably not) but I don't see the benefit of artificially restricting someone from a bad build. Furthermore, restricting down to very low memory slots would benefit some builds over others and mess with balance which really isn't ideal either.
Posted By: Froggy Re: Definitive Edition Difficulty Mode - 18/08/18 04:26 AM
Honestly, i think the best solution right now would simply be the "brutal A.I" that they claim was too merciless. in addition, giving the player the option to tune the difficulty themselfs. This would prolly be something like a slider for Health, Armor, Experience, Gold and Action Points. Anything like this would make me 'content' enough regarding difficulty, without being unrealistic. However, in the future i do hope they'll consider tuning their hardest content a little more aggressive, or give us a way to do it ourselfs. either trough options in a menu or ingame by completing various challenges.
Posted By: gaymer Re: Definitive Edition Difficulty Mode - 29/08/18 08:44 PM
Well the changes seem underwhelming to the difficulty
Posted By: Tredvolt Re: Definitive Edition Difficulty Mode - 29/08/18 09:42 PM
My friends and I have gone over the changes and we think there were some good moves in the right direction.

1. Reduced damage of the 3sp skills. I'm not sure how much they lowered it by, but you might as well have stopped playing the game once you hit level 16 in vanilla, or even lower if you picked up Blood Storm. We were happy to see these were pulled back.

2. Reduced damage bonuses on non-unique weapons. If we are understanding it correctly this means many of the weapons we would normally have used will be a bit weaker making for a more challenging fights. Even if it is small - the cumulative effects should be noticeable.

3. Lone wolf MIGHT be playable. We aren't holding our breaths on this one but reducing the stat caps to normal levels will hopefully have a large impact on the ridiculous power of Lone wolf. We played lone wolf once when the game first came out and decided that unlike the first game lone wolf was completely overpowered and as a result not fun in the least. Our first campaign will be a double lone wolf party in 2 days.

4. Slower stat growth will definitely help a lot. They really missed the mark on scaling and they are pulling back in a significant way (35%). I really think this was a great move on their part and should really make the game feel a lot better especially later.

5. Various nerfs (overpower/flay skin/grasp of the starved) I'd have liked to have seen Teleport/Skin Graft/Living on the Edge/Bouncing Shield/Death Wish/Spider Form/Netherswap take some hits but any progress is progress. Grasp was definitely overtuned and that double nerf is very well received.

------------------------------------------------------

My guess is that with so many tweaks to content they didn't want to be too heavy handed with nerfs/buffs until they get a good sample size of feedback. Our group intends to do a big review after 3-4 playthroughs. We are looking forward to working the summoner into our ideal setups in some capacity and maybe a tiny bit more emphasis on necro for mosquitos and infect.

Last comment - I still feel experience is way too high and it stops us from enjoying more of the game because we constantly feel compelled to skip content in order to keep our levels reasonable and preserve the challenge. We've left the 2nd island at level 18 before and it is just silly. This never feels good and I think about a 20% reduction in exp across the board (starting at 2nd island) would be very warranted. The first island is perfect though - we do absolutely everything and still don't feel overleveled. Just our opinion!
Posted By: shadow85 Re: Definitive Edition Difficulty Mode - 30/08/18 12:23 PM
so what changes have they made to making the game more challenging? Anything, where do I find info for those changes?
Posted By: Kalrakh Re: Definitive Edition Difficulty Mode - 30/08/18 12:27 PM
Link to Change log
Posted By: Froggy Re: Definitive Edition Difficulty Mode - 30/08/18 04:49 PM
Originally Posted by Tredvolt
My guess is that with so many tweaks to content they didn't want to be too heavy handed with nerfs/buffs until they get a good sample size of feedback. Our group intends to do a big review after 3-4 playthroughs. We are looking forward to working the summoner into our ideal setups in some capacity and maybe a tiny bit more emphasis on necro for mosquitos and infect.

Last comment - I still feel experience is way too high and it stops us from enjoying more of the game because we constantly feel compelled to skip content in order to keep our levels reasonable and preserve the challenge. We've left the 2nd island at level 18 before and it is just silly. This never feels good and I think about a 20% reduction in exp across the board (starting at 2nd island) would be very warranted. The first island is perfect though - we do absolutely everything and still don't feel overleveled. Just our opinion!


I think that reducing experience gained after level ~10ish would make the game harder and, in my opinion, more fun by default.

However, i'm quite sure that the reason for this not being the case already is due to many of the quests being optional. This in turn would most likely cause issues for some players that are only interested in the main story arc and/or do little of the side activities, resulting in those players being under-leveled, thus creating a less than ideal scenario for both the player(s) in question and Larian Studios. (Which would end up dealing with criticism)

When it comes to the rebalancing of certain spells; I'm not really concerned about most RAW Damage output abilities, with the exception of those mentioned by Larian themselfs, ofcourse. Most of the vastly overpowered spells are based on their utility. such as; Living on the Edge, Death Wish, Spider Form, Wings, Invisibility, Haste, Skin Graft, Etc. Each skill on their own is not that big of a deal, untill you decide to fully buff one of your characters, use Flight and/or Invisibility to the High Ground and simply wait for the opportune moment. By making some of these abilities personal you could restrict the player of doing so. However, i wouldn't want to be limited in this manner simply because there are no alternatives nor content that lend themselves to this level of min-maxing.

In the end, i would need to play trough the game again in order to make a proper final judgement, in terms of overall satisfaction and sense of challenge, provided by the changes made to the game. Besides, if this is not going to be the case then, we can always try to tailor the experience in our favor, with the use of mods.
Posted By: Cyka Re: Definitive Edition Difficulty Mode - 30/08/18 11:39 PM
Originally Posted by Kalrakh
One of the my biggest concerns since EA:

At some point you will have every skill you need for your tactic and therefore combat will turn very static and repetative, because:

A. Character developement got pretty dumbed down: no influence on how much AP you have and gain, attributes pretty much only increase damage, nothing else, skill tree don't offer additional benefits on higher skill level (no reduced cost or other stuff)
B. ridiculous low requirements to learn high level skills, therefore you don't need any kind of dedication


With making AP static in the second game they killed most of their options to make character development more interesting and worthwile and they failed to come up with a replacement or did not even try.


I have posted multiple threads in the EA to suggest soft stuns mixed with hard stuns for a more complex combat system. As it stands the current armor + positioning makes one solutions fits all encounter. High ground + DPS + infinite stun lock until your inevitable victory is just boring to do over and over.

Not to mention 60% of the fight requires pre-positioning, but once that is done it trivialities the encounter since enemies have to waste AP, you move first then you dps and stun and fights over. Constitution is still a crap stat because once your armor is down prepare for insane charm + chain of anguish + stun lock combo from the enemy, and game over soon after, your health doesn't matter.

Heck i dont mind pre-positioning if surfaces doesnt become useless as soon as Act 2 when everybody including the boss's mother learns to fly without cooldowns and just ignore the surfaces you set up. One of the funniest part about EA is successfully set up a powerful surface and watch your work doing it's job, but since everyone has as much as 10k armor late game, that 200 damage max surface wont do anything even if they have no teleport....

Look at how dynamic Pillar of Eternity combat is, you can stack for buffs or scatter to avoid AOEs, you can risk to cast long casting hardstuns or buff yourself first, you can choose soft disable to weaken the enemies or go for hard long stuns that might be interrupted.

You can set up walls, block off entrances with tank, abuse choke points. You can stealth, kite, tank, reset, trap and many more. Enemies have weaknesses and your hit chance is a percentage, but you can make that percentage 100% by figuring out enemy's weakness then carry buff/debuff, or alternatively you can do a full dps party and rely on scrolls, even then it isnt a garentee success and you have to deal with effective healing, buffing, planning your next half of the fight once buffs run out.

Do we have any of that complexity here?
Posted By: Hayte Re: Definitive Edition Difficulty Mode - 31/08/18 01:43 PM
This thread suffers from using terms that are ill defined. Everything in this game is easy when you know exactly what to do and ranges from difficult to impossible if you don't.

I prefer to think of combat in this game as a sequence of puzzles to be solved by the player. On my first blind playthrough (tactician), I stumble into fights without the benefit of hindsight, so I first needed to discover the rules. I often discover game rules by failing. Failure is an amazing tool for discovering how things work.

Once I know roughly what skills/abilities are effective, what skills/abilities the enemies use and how the AI uses them, I try to identify potential win conditions. It doesn't matter if I fail because I am eliminating methods that don't work.

Then comes executing a win condition. For example, the first time I ran into Alice Alisceon, I got owned repeatedly. After numerous failed attempts I came to the conclusion that in order to win, she had to be separated from her healing totems and she could not be allowed to attack. I was level 10 or 11 the first time I did the fight so she blew up my entire party in a single turn.

The first time I beat her, I settled on a strategy of moving 3 characters up to the abbey, pre-emptively casting Living on the Edge on an unchained character, initiating dialogue/combat on this character and forcing Alice to waste her first turn on a target that couldn't be killed. Then I teleported her up to the abbey, shredded physical armour, and chained physical cc (battlestomp, battering ram and chicken).

A "difficult" fight to me is one that has very strict win conditions. If you know what to do, its still "easy" but at this point you have the benefit of hindsight, build theorycrafting and repeatable/predictable results in testing. I expect it to be easy to execute a strategy that I have pre-prepared and already know will be successful.

I think the "difficulty" of Tactician/Honour is fine in a broad sense. You can plan a consistent route through each act in order to match or overrun the hp and damage scaling of enemies at each level. The game subtly corrals you into fighting within +/- 2 levels of your enemies.

If you do things out of sequence, then you can run into fights very under-leveled, get out scaled hard and the win conditions become super strict like fighting Alice at level 10, where you cannot engage her where she spawns and you cannot allow her to attack.

Later in the game the opposite problem emerges where it becomes easy to out scale and over-level enemy encounters. The win conditions become very relaxed. Many strategies will be successful and you can execute them all poorly but still win. There are less consequences or no consequences for allowing enemies to hurt you.

We know Larian is addressing the scaling issue. For me, Act 1 is fine the way it is and is a good template for the other acts to follow. I think the fights can be approached in a mostly linear fashion with increasingly stricter win conditions the nearer you get to the end of the act. The one outlier for me was Radeka, who I thought required the most elaborate setup to beat. Fights are designed to be tackled +/- 1 level.

The scaling issue begins around level 9 (act 2, zone 2) due to the vitality leap growth levels at 9, 13, 16 and 18. There is a mod to reduce the stat growth rate (both constant growth and leap growth) but you will note that it only reduces vitality scaling and all item defence and damage values are calculated automatically based off vitality using ratios (which can be edited).

When people talking about making the game "more difficult" by imposing arbitrarily stricter win conditions, they invariably involve falling behind the vitality scaling curve. One such example would be to self impose a "no thievery" rule. One consequence of this is you can no longer upgrade all your gear at vitality leap growth levels by shopping stat upgrades for free, which will put you massively behind on the damage scaling curve.

I don't think arguing about difficulty is productive. The game is as easy or as difficult as your knowledge of how the game works on a mechanical level. What I'm really looking forward to in Definitive Edition is re-thinking my assumptions about how Classic Edition works. Hopefully I will have a new set of puzzles to figure out. I am under no illusion that the game will be easy once I figure out all the puzzles and that's ok.
Posted By: vometia Re: Definitive Edition Difficulty Mode - 31/08/18 02:40 PM
Originally Posted by Froggy
I think that reducing experience gained after level ~10ish would make the game harder and, in my opinion, more fun by default.

For me this would do the exact opposite. I tend to view role-playing games as predominantly about role-playing, not combat. I'm not really interested in "hard" and neither am I interested in analysing the minutiae of builds and the ideal tactics. As far as I'm concerned they're obstacles to be overcome and not the point of the game: the point of the game for me is to be who I'm playing, to explore, to learn about the other characters, to absorb the story and atmosphere. Combat trails rather a long way behind all of those.

The trouble with OS2 is that there's a "winning strategy" behind many if not all of the battles. If you've figured out what it is, whether by luck or judgement, you'll walk it. If you haven't, you won't. Arbitrarily hobbling the ability to succeed based on the experience of the former is unlikely to do anything usefully interesting but it will likely make it impossible for people who haven't studied every strategy and actually puts them at a disadvantage compared to those who went before: so it really only becomes hard for new players, who will probably give up and tell all their mates, "this game sucks".

Some have suggested imposing your own limitations to increase the challenge. Even as about as non-hardcore a player as you can get, I have often done this myself so I don't buy the claim that it's unrealistic, and for those who need hand-holding in order to set themselves a challenge, I'm not sure there's really an answer to that.
Posted By: Froggy Re: Definitive Edition Difficulty Mode - 31/08/18 03:21 PM
Originally Posted by Hayte
I don't think arguing about difficulty is productive. The game is as easy or as difficult as your knowledge of how the game works on a mechanical level.


This is something i don't really agree with. I do think that you brought up a few good points in regards to Boss fights and how they should revolve around... primarily, dealing with the Boss Mechanics the most effective way possible.

Now the main issue i have with the aformentioned quote is; That many of the Boss encounters in this game do not require any knowledge related to this fight in order to defeat them. So instead of applying custom tactics to boss encounters, that you've previously wiped on and therefore want to apply your new-found knowledge to your overall strategy in order to defeat said boss, is simply not required after reaching level ~15ish.

If EVERY Boss fight can be defeated by applying the same strategy then, how does this NOT warrant cause for concern or criticism? I mean, is it so much to ask for to add a difficulty whereby the player always wipes the first 3 - 5 attempts, in order to learn the mechanics and figure out an appropriate strategy to apply to the circumstances? This is what i would expect from playing a game of this nature on the hardest possible difficulty, which it achieves in the first Act.

To clarify my point: The game is not hard enough for some players to ever have to bother with new boss mechanics, simply because they either die too fast or the mechanics in question can be dealt with adequately using a general stratagy. This, in my opinion, should really not be the case when i have no other options in terms of difficulty at my disposal. Aside from using arbitrary handicaps to effectively limit my knowledge and build varirity, ofcourse.

If that is the case then there SHOULD be an additional difficulty added to the game. The amount of effort and resources required for this to happen are practically nil, we're talking adjusting Armor, Health and Experience modifiers per act. I mean, hell, they could've circumvented the entire issue by having better players in their QA department. But this should really have been the default experience for every player on the highest difficulty.

The difficulty i would IDEALLY want, from a personal standpoint, would have to be much, much harder. Where you would respec your characters, do the entire zone for gear and gold to buy resistance potions, ingredients for Flasks and food, plan potential kite routes, etc. Simply to wipe over and over again. Because that is fun to ME. And this is not something i would ever 'expect' or 'demand' from a developer. Obviously because this would require alot of resources for a extremely small number of players. This is just something i like to bring to their attention just so they know that there are atleast some people that would enjoy such a game.
Posted By: Froggy Re: Definitive Edition Difficulty Mode - 31/08/18 03:30 PM
Originally Posted by vometia
Originally Posted by Froggy
I think that reducing experience gained after level ~10ish would make the game harder and, in my opinion, more fun by default.

For me this would do the exact opposite. I tend to view role-playing games as predominantly about role-playing, not combat. I'm not really interested in "hard" and neither am I interested in analysing the minutiae of builds and the ideal tactics. As far as I'm concerned they're obstacles to be overcome and not the point of the game: the point of the game for me is to be who I'm playing, to explore, to learn about the other characters, to absorb the story and atmosphere. Combat trails rather a long way behind all of those.


I mean, that's fair enough. I personally, have never cared for the story in any game. The games that i enjoy are those that have a very indepth character customization system. The type of combat doesn't really matter either. Action Combat, Turn Based, etc doesn't really matter either.

Point being; This is very subjective.
Posted By: vometia Re: Definitive Edition Difficulty Mode - 31/08/18 04:36 PM
Originally Posted by Froggy
I mean, that's fair enough. I personally, have never cared for the story in any game. The games that i enjoy are those that have a very indepth character customization system. The type of combat doesn't really matter either. Action Combat, Turn Based, etc doesn't really matter either.

Point being; This is very subjective.

It certainly is. Which is why getting a proper range of experiences is important, but even then I'm not sure it's actually possible to please everyone (even ignoring the sort of people who want to intrude on others' gaming experiences, who are annoyingly commonplace). A good example of how it goes bad is the "nerf this, nerf that, nerf everything!" which suits one particular style of playing regardless of difficulty, and some studios do take that on board which ends up satisfying a small niche at the expense of everyone else. Perhaps it's the case that difficulty isn't simply a one-dimensional element of easy to hard (Oblivion's being a good example of this, where it simply acted as a multiplier of the opponents' damage compared to the player's) but is a multi-dimensional thing. But complexity brings all of its own problems, and that's before you get the aforementioned people who insist on making other people's experience worse.
Posted By: Vilenica Re: Definitive Edition Difficulty Mode - 31/08/18 04:53 PM
Why is story mode so easy? I'm currently playing story mode and I expected very easy game and I love easy casual experience, but not stroll everywhere easy. I'm in Hollow marches.
Posted By: shadow85 Re: Definitive Edition Difficulty Mode - 01/09/18 01:00 AM
God damm there is just too much variety of peoples preference of what they want in a game in terms of difficulty.

Somebody wants it to be easy or just a stroll to see the storyline, some want it to be harder, some want inbetween. You would think that out of the 4+1 new difficulty options to chose from it could cover everyones desire for what the difficulty should be.

Unfortunately not. It seems the lower end is fine, with the story mode and explorer or classic mode. But the higher end, i.e. tactician has still alot to be desired for because it simply is not hard enough.

They should have increased the challenge alot more on the higher end of the difficulty, because then that could make every type of player happy all the way from easy to really hard!
Posted By: gaymer Re: Definitive Edition Difficulty Mode - 02/09/18 05:16 PM
Playing through now and so far I can't see how the game has gotten harder. Still +0/1 level right now above all encounters due to doing optional quests.

The difficulty is just not there; fights are still a formality
Posted By: Wellzy4eva Re: Definitive Edition Difficulty Mode - 04/09/18 08:57 PM
Personally, I think people were spoilt by the additions made to Tactician mode in D:OS:EE as the team had more time and focus on rebalancing fights to get around standard strategies.

Sven explains it best here: https://youtu.be/tEn0B31burc?t=5m25s

So they effectively rebalanced a lot of the bigger scenarios to make them more challenging and expanded on the skills of the standard enemies, and I don't feel that the team has had that time and resources to do that for D:OS2:EE so instead Tactician mode is just a hard mode with higher health values.

Originally Posted by Stabbey
Concrete suggestions on how to change it would be more helpful, because there is an incredible variety in player skill and experience. Some people struggle on explorer, others sleepwalk through Tactician.

What kinds of changes would you like to see to make the game more challenging?


A really simple change, which I believe was in the original Tactician mode was that basic enemies were more likely to use special grenades and specialist arrows than in Normal mode. Expanding on this you could also expand generic enemies skill pools, even one new skill each would be useful.

I'm sure if there isn't the time to recode the AI for the bosses, you could add elements to spice up certain fights, explosive/elemental barrels, a few elemental puddles here and there, hell... even a respawn mechanic for mobs of certain bosses.
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