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Posted By: Crine Light Stepper talent question - 31/10/15 05:01 PM
The description of light stepper says it raises perception by 2 points for the purpose of trap and secret detection however if I take it and then mouse over perception it says that it is only +2 for trap detection. Which is correct, the talent description with secrets or the perception description without secrets?
Posted By: Draba Re: Light Stepper talent question - 31/10/15 06:02 PM
It's for everything.

Minor spoiler:
I've found the orc grave with 10 perception and light stepper. In a game I've restarded early on it needed 10 per + burn my eyes.
Posted By: Luckmann Re: Light Stepper talent question - 31/10/15 07:25 PM
"It's for everything" can be misunderstood, so let's be clear; it applies to both trap-detection and detection of secrets. Basically, it applies to all instances where you would see or notice something based on your Perception.

Traps, switches, buried chests, hidden buttons, you name it, Light Stepper should help you find it, unless things have changed (and if they have, oh boy is Light Stepper more useless than ever).
Posted By: Crine Re: Light Stepper talent question - 31/10/15 10:19 PM
Originally Posted by Luckmann
Traps, switches, buried chests, hidden buttons, you name it, Light Stepper should help you find it, unless things have changed (and if they have, oh boy is Light Stepper more useless than ever).

Does your comment about it being more useless mean it isn't a good talent to take?
Posted By: Gyson Re: Light Stepper talent question - 31/10/15 10:28 PM
Originally Posted by Crine
Originally Posted by Luckmann
Traps, switches, buried chests, hidden buttons, you name it, Light Stepper should help you find it, unless things have changed (and if they have, oh boy is Light Stepper more useless than ever).

Does your comment about it being more useless mean it isn't a good talent to take?


It's not a bad talent. The problem is there are a few talents that modify ability or attribute scores, and there are (late in the game) much more efficient ways to trade talent points for a larger amounts of either.

Put more plainly, you will eventually have the choice of trading 1 talent point for 10 ability points, and trading 5 ability points for 1 attribute point. This makes traits like Light Stepper, Bigger and Better, and All Skilled Up a poor use of trait points in the long run. However, in the early game they can be very handy traits to choose.. so, it's a frustrating choice.
Posted By: akuratheunseen Re: Light Stepper talent question - 31/10/15 10:34 PM
Sorry gyson that got nerfed into the ground talent trading gives 1 ability point now lolol ironically the demon also says 1 attribute for 1 ability but still takes 3
Posted By: Crine Re: Light Stepper talent question - 31/10/15 10:36 PM
Originally Posted by akuratheunseen
Sorry gyson that got nerfed into the ground talent trading gives 1 ability point now lolol ironically the demon also says 1 attribute for 1 ability but still takes 3
Wow! That is a massive decrease in value especially going from 10 ability to 1.
Posted By: xiery Re: Light Stepper talent question - 31/10/15 10:47 PM
I'm a few more levels to get soulsap and will send that sod back to hell. Till then I hope this was some bad joke from Larian and I'll keep my useless talent points unspent till the next patch.

Actually I just chopped him down with my level 10 party, he is not hard at all with only 100% elemental resist. Also he dropped two crappy yellow items, one purple and one pink.
The next one will be the new cheese seller.
Posted By: Gyson Re: Light Stepper talent question - 01/11/15 12:04 AM
Originally Posted by Crine
Originally Posted by akuratheunseen
Sorry gyson that got nerfed into the ground talent trading gives 1 ability point now lolol ironically the demon also says 1 attribute for 1 ability but still takes 3
Wow! That is a massive decrease in value especially going from 10 ability to 1.


If accurate, I think it's a good change. Those deals made too many talents a poor long term investment.

Sure, respecs were an option (I'm assuming it still is), but then you had to chase down all your old skill/spell books again. I don't think certain talents should practically require a respec later on, nor do I think any adventurer should ever be like "Wow, that demon cut me a totally awesome deal..! What a swell fellow.".
Posted By: xiery Re: Light Stepper talent question - 01/11/15 12:14 AM
You don't need to chase down the skill books again because when you respec now you keep already known skills, just checked it first before I killed Moloch. Possible bug- if there are unspent points before the respes they are lost.
Posted By: Novan Leon Re: Light Stepper talent question - 02/11/15 05:04 PM
[quote=akuratheunseen]Sorry gyson that got nerfed into the ground talent trading gives 1 ability point now lolol ironically the demon also says 1 attribute for 1 ability but still takes 3[/quote]

This would make Light Stepper a semi-decent talent for some characters. Can anyone confirm?

[quote=xiery]You don't need to chase down the skill books again because when you respec now you keep already known skills, just checked it first before I killed Moloch. Possible bug- if there are unspent points before the respes they are lost.[/quote]

Can someone confirm this? If true, this would be a big change.
Posted By: CK1 Re: Light Stepper talent question - 02/11/15 05:13 PM
Light stepper is useful for Honor mode unless you want to take on "worlgaff" or whatever that thief is whenever you think there might be traps or actually use him as your main scout.

Even if you got a solid combat plan, nothing makes short work of your party like one mine in a bad environment and then it's back to the drawing board again.

I just made my main leader have some perception points and light stepper. Very handy when doing the orc stuff around level 6.
Posted By: PyrosEien Re: Light Stepper talent question - 02/11/15 05:14 PM
Originally Posted by Novan Leon
Can someone confirm this? If true, this would be a big change.


Yes, you can trade 1 talent for 1ability point and 3ability points for 1 attribute, so there's not that many cases where it's worth not taking talents now since 1 ability point is nothing.

On the bug about unspeced points, I haven't seen that. I had 6 unassigned ability points when I respeced and then still had 6 when I respeced to the same thing. Same for talent points, had 1, stayed at 1. I haven't checked unassigned attributes though.

You do keep your spells though, I did a few respecs to learn more spells. Get to 5 in a school, learn a bunch of spells, respec down to whatever and you keep the spells. AP penalties still apply, but useful to have 6 novice spells at lvl 1 for example.
Posted By: Novan Leon Re: Light Stepper talent question - 02/11/15 06:15 PM
[quote=PyrosEien]You do keep your spells though, I did a few respecs to learn more spells. Get to 5 in a school, learn a bunch of spells, respec down to whatever and you keep the spells. AP penalties still apply, but useful to have 6 novice spells at lvl 1 for example.[/quote]

If this means I no longer have to run around looking for skill books after a respec, this is great news.
Posted By: Stabbey Re: Light Stepper talent question - 03/11/15 12:21 AM
It is good news that you keep skills after a respec. In your skill book, or as books in your inventory?

If it's the former, I wonder if that is the way to get the "all talents learned" achievement. I can't see any other way to get it on a single character.


Originally Posted by Gyson
If accurate, I think it's a good change. Those deals made too many talents a poor long term investment.


My opinion is that poor Talents were what made talents a poor investment. But instead of making the bad Talents better, instead they nerfed the alternative into worthlessness. I do not think that was a good approach to the problem.

At the very least, people will still remember when the Talent exchange was useful, and they'll see it for what it is.


Quote
<snip>
...nor do I think any adventurer should ever be like "Wow, that demon cut me a totally awesome deal..! What a swell fellow.".


I don't agree with that in this particular case, and to explain why, I'll reword what you said.

"Wow, that Stronghold service NPC cut me a totally awesome deal..! What a swell fellow."

Because that is all the demon is. He's an NPC in the stronghold who provides a service. In terms of the story he does not work for the bad guys, he is not plotting against you or is scheming to overthrow you, nor does he give a misleading deal to try and trick you.

In all respects, the stronghold demon has no agency or role outside of being a service-providing NPC.
Posted By: Dr Koin Re: Light Stepper talent question - 03/11/15 01:04 AM
Originally Posted by Stabbey
My opinion is that poor Talents were what made talents a poor investment. But instead of making the bad Talents better, instead they nerfed the alternative into worthlessness. I do not think that was a good approach to the problem.


Funny enough, I was speaking with my coop partner earlier about the fact that they made some previously not very interesting talents interesting... By making the previously interesting ones uninteresting or making Tactician such a stun-lock fest that you WANT those immunities.
TBH this is one of the things that triggered my rants in other topics about Marksman and Scoundrel.

And I totally second you on the fact that wasn't a very good approach to the problem.

Sure, now most talents are somehow equal and desirable depending on your archetype, but veterans of DOS classic can't forget what they once were. Even if we can acknowledge some were so OP they were pretty no-brainers.
With the EE, I'd give a lot to be a newcomer... :p
Posted By: Gyson Re: Light Stepper talent question - 03/11/15 01:15 AM
Originally Posted by Stabbey
Originally Posted by Gyson
If accurate, I think it's a good change. Those deals made too many talents a poor long term investment.


My opinion is that poor Talents were what made talents a poor investment. But instead of making the bad Talents better, instead they nerfed the alternative into worthlessness. I do not think that was a good approach to the problem.

At the very least, people will still remember when the Talent exchange was useful, and they'll see it for what it is.


That's all well and good, but there was nothing wrong with those talents. They didn't stink any more or less than half the talents we have as options (some talents, I feel, are overpowered, but that's neither here nor there). They were only bad choices because of a poorly balanced trade you could make later in the game, not because the talents themselves were bad. Light Stepper, for example, is a fine talent.. until you realized you could just trade 1 talent point for 10 ability points and raise your perception score by 4 instead of watered down version of 2.

The better solution here is the solution they went with.. weaken the value of that imbalanced trade.

I'm curious what you don't like about Light Stepper. I always make sure to grab it on one party member ever time I start a new game. Then again, I avoid talents that I think make the game cheesy-easy, but that's what choices are all about.
Posted By: Stabbey Re: Light Stepper talent question - 03/11/15 02:25 AM
Even if the ability to trade 1 Talent for 10 ability points (and 5 ability points for 1 Attribute point) was overpowered, there is such a thing as overnerfing, and changing it from 10 ability points to 1 feels like it is going too far. For the value that gives you, you might as well just prohibit trading Talent points entirely.

Sure it eliminates trading a Talent for more points than the Talent actually granted, but it also eliminates the option for some build types (like some hybrids) to take advantage of the trade option and maybe try to trade a talent point they have no use for into abilities or attributes that they might have a use for.

Looking at the list of changes and comparing them to the old ones, I agree with Dr. Koin that a lot of changes to existing Talents have made them less attractive. Not just the overpowered ones like Glass Cannon, but even ones as simple as Thick Skin going from granting 7-15 bonus armor down to 6-10. When your armor rating can hit 150+, was that additional 1-5 armor really the tipping point to making it overpowered?

I don't have a problem with Light Stepper. It's fine. I was thinking of some other Talents. You are correct in that they probably weren't any better or worse than most of the other Talents. "Didn't stink any more or less than half the talents", though, is not a ringing endorsement. I see that as a lot of wasted potential and missed opportunities.
Posted By: flamewave Re: Light Stepper talent question - 03/11/15 09:06 AM
I am interested in knowing about the demon. Does it link to anything to do with Jahan (and the promise you make to him when you sign him up)?
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