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Posted By: Stabbey Gag Order vs Chloroform - 27/10/17 09:25 PM
Chloroform (Scoundrel 1) strips magic armor and applies Sleeping (hard CC) to targets without MA for one turn at a range of 13 meters. It scales with Finesse, costs 1 AP to use, and has a 3 turn cooldown.

Gag order (Scoundrel 2) strips magic armor and applies Silenced (soft CC) to targets without MA for one turn at a range of 3 meters. It scales with Finesse, costs 3 AP to use, and has a 4 turn cooldown.

At level 9:
Chloroform strips 53-59 MA.
Gag Order strips 57-64 MA. (An average increase of 8% over Chloroform, for 200% more AP.)

At level 19:
Chloroform strips 630-696 MA.
Gag Order strips 668-701 MA. (An average increase of 3.5% percent over Chloroform, for 200% more AP.)

In every single aspect, range, effect, cooldown, Scoundrel point investment needed, and AP cost, Chloroform is vastly superior, for only slightly less damage.

Please, Larian, pay at least a tiny amount of attention to balance. Gag Order costs three times the AP of Chloroform for less utility and ease of use, and an insignificant increase in power.

Suggestions:
Either A) Reduce Gag Order's AP cost from 3 to 1 (not to 2, to 1). -OR-
B) Increase Chloroform's AP cost from 1 to 2, AND decrease Gag Order's AP cost from 3 to 2. (Not either/or, both. I don't particularly like this option, it's not my first choice or my second choice.) -OR-
C) Change Gag Order's power to be triple that of Chloroform, to match the AP cost.

At level 9:
OLD Gag Order strips 57-64 MA.
NEW Gag Order strips 159-177 MA.

At level 19:
OLD Gag Order strips 668-701 MA.
NEW Gag Order strips 1890-2088 MA.

EDIT: Changed Triple power of Gag Order to be triple power of Chloroform.
Posted By: Horrorscope Re: Gag Order vs Chloroform - 28/10/17 05:42 PM
Yeah that comparison is messed up, I bumped up Gag Order's power, kept costs to use the same.
Posted By: Zoranus Re: Gag Order vs Chloroform - 29/10/17 02:50 PM
I disagree that Gag Order needs a buff. Maybe a Reduction to 2, but certainly not 1.

Sleep is removed as soon as you do anything to the target, making it only significant for a final round move. Even then, if the A.I. wakes them up with some A.O.E., they may still just go in and attack.

While Silence will persist, and is particularly useful on annoying mages.

If you're using these moves solely as magic armor strippers, yeah, Gag Order will seem weak. But there may definitely be tactical times when that silence easily outpowers that sleep.
Posted By: Stabbey Re: Gag Order vs Chloroform - 29/10/17 03:00 PM
Originally Posted by Zoranus
I disagree that Gag Order needs a buff. Maybe a Reduction to 2, but certainly not 1.

Sleep is removed as soon as you do anything to the target, making it only significant for a final round move. Even then, if the A.I. wakes them up with some A.O.E., they may still just go in and attack.

While Silence will persist, and is particularly useful on annoying mages.


False. Gag Order sets Silence for one turn only. It does not persist. Enemies don't prioritize waking up other enemies with Sleep.

This is probably the single clearest-cut case of two skills being badly balanced relative to each other. Your argument is completely unconvincing. One AP for Gag Order or a major buff.


Posted By: Zoranus Re: Gag Order vs Chloroform - 29/10/17 03:31 PM
That's what I mean by "persists", it lasts its full duration. It might last just for one turn, but it will last one turn. Sleep might be lost right away, and your next person has to avoid targeting them.
Posted By: Stabbey Re: Gag Order vs Chloroform - 29/10/17 03:53 PM
Nope, I cannot agree that makes Gag Order worth 3 AP. Nowhere nearly close enough. I can't even agree that makes Gag Order only worth 2 AP.

The very idea is absurd.
Posted By: Zoranus Re: Gag Order vs Chloroform - 29/10/17 04:01 PM
Eh, I'll agree to disagree. Gag and Chloroform are powerful when combined, since you destroy so much magic armor. If both were worth 1 AP that would be absurd.

If anything, I would suggest Chloroform gets nerfed to 2 AP, and Gag buffed to two AP rather than both 1, as that would be ridiculous magic armor destruction capabilities. That would be a better balance IMO.
Posted By: Stabbey Re: Gag Order vs Chloroform - 29/10/17 05:12 PM
I suppose bringing both to 2 AP would be technically be making them both at relatively the same power-per-AP, and that would also be acceptable. I will add that option to the OP even though I don't prefer it.

But combined they would deal only about 1400 damage single-target to MA at most (using my level 19 numbers) for 4 AP, which is still significantly less than a mage using 2*2 AP damage skills which also have additional effects, so I don't agree that it's as powerful as you claim.
Posted By: Alexstrasza Re: Gag Order vs Chloroform - 30/10/17 12:30 AM
Originally Posted by Zoranus
If anything, I would suggest Chloroform gets nerfed to 2 AP, and Gag buffed to two AP rather than both 1, as that would be ridiculous magic armor destruction capabilities. That would be a better balance IMO.


Are you deranged? You know nothing of balance.

Overpower does this to PA except ALL of it and then it deals damage and knocks them down. Overpower isn't even broken either, it's just good at what it does.

"that would be like, way too much magic armour damage, omg"

Rogues don't care about MA, it's literally just to help apply that status. Silence is so stupid anyway; why silence when you can just kill them.
Posted By: Horrorscope Re: Gag Order vs Chloroform - 30/10/17 11:29 PM
What's a bit better than sleep or silence? Knockdown, Frozen, Charmed, Stunned. None are particularly expensive.

I went Gag Order 2 AP 4 Cooldown, 50% more magic armor damage, w/silence.

Chloro is 1 AP 3 Cooldown, base damage w/sleep.

Another way to go is 2 rounds of Silence for gag n puke.
Posted By: waterzxc Re: Gag Order vs Chloroform - 31/10/17 01:23 PM
I believe gag order can do backstab crit. It's still underpowered though.
Posted By: Alexstrasza Re: Gag Order vs Chloroform - 31/10/17 07:04 PM
Originally Posted by waterzxc
I believe gag order can do backstab crit. It's still underpowered though.


So can Battlestomp, lol...
Posted By: Peaches Re: Gag Order vs Chloroform - 31/10/17 07:31 PM
I just dropped Gag Order's AP cost in my mod, and had it apply suffocating.
Posted By: laiozatt Re: Gag Order vs Chloroform - 03/11/17 01:14 PM
Totally agreed, playing scoundrel this run and gag order is definetely the worst skill, also corrupted blade needs some damage boost, its the second worst skill in that school, followed by throwin knife and fan of knives.
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