Does anyone know what we can expect since we KNOW we won't see a full release this year?
Will we get at least new classes and possible expansion of area to test? Otherwise, the game is dead (imo).

Larian will probably continue to drabble out bits of new content every few months. The remaining paladin/bard/monk classes are possibilities. It's hard to say how many new areas they will put in the EA without encroaching on Act II. Perhaps new companions? Hard to say about that.

Speaking of new content. It's been almost three months now since that barbarian was patched in. Ought there be another update coming up in May or June?

lol, we have no idea. Larian doesn't tell us their roadmap.

Larian will post something ~2 weeks before a Patch, probably advertising their next Panel from Hell. That patch might contain a new class OR a area, but almost certainly not both, and possibly neither.

Going by their past schedule (roughly a Patch every 4 months), I'd guess we'll see 2 more patches this year, with 1 of them adding a new class.

was really start having fun around level 5 in solasta. think larian shouldn't give it away till the release. i would rather them work on the core mechanics of the game like.. reaction though.

I suggest a better way to describe BG III rather than the term "dead" might be "unborn".

Larian is going through a very long gestation time. Eventually there will have to be a big push to get BGIII out, and I expect then there will be either lots of screaming, or lots of drugs.

Lol-ed, why not both though ?

I'm quite frustrated with the slow pace (as many are). I certainly appreciate the evolution of the core game over the EA period, but darn..I want something new to play and RPGs are pretty few and far between these days. (yes, poor me).

I am not. Let them take their time. next year or the year after that. I don't care... there are so many games to play besides this.
Cyberpunk was rushed and I still haven't bought it. I will wait for game of the year edition so I can play it the best it can be. Learn to be patient.

I would say that area is possible ... even tho not exactly probable ... since every bit of map is revealing another parts of the story, and it would be a shame to spoil too much before release. :-/

And new class should be certain, i mean we still have little over half year over us ... during that time they should manage to finish at least one more.

I would not expect another companion, since there isnt much to test on them, unless they would want to make them character lifting as they did with Shadowheart ...

There are several "on going" mechanics and stuff we have ben told that they keep working on, so some progress would be certainly fine ...
You know stuff like: Reactions, UI, reactions, casting, reactions, fog of war, reactions, ... did i mentioned reactions?

---

I would agree with people saying that Larian should take their time and certainly not rush anything ...
On the other hand, im not quite sure if their taken time would be well spend lately ... but i gues that is beyond our reach. :-/

I mean, in the past i was worried that last released class will not get as much testing as any other ... since people would be bored with the game, and release will be closing, and other stuff ... even myself i only played once with Barbarian and stopped my evil play before i even reached Goblin camp. :-/
Lately i start realize that amount of time or amount of testing may not be relevant factor ... concidering that people are complaining about Wizards and Rogues for last ... year and half (or is it 3/4 allready?) and basicaly, nothing changed. :-/

So ... maybe im just sceptic somehow, but i just somehow cant help the feeling that real answer for the question: What will next patch contain? Is: It doesnt matter really.

---

And since topics like this will sooner or later turn into wishlist, why even resist?
I would not mind at all if next patch would be another pure mechanics patch without any new class as Patch ... 5, was it? Not sure.

The problem is that level 5 is where changes to 5e system might really start to mess things up. I think many of us would like to be able to try out (and most likely complain) about how multi-attack will be implemented in BG3 while it is still a year till release.

😆

I don't even mind the wait anymore. Solasta's doing more than enough to help pass the time at the moment. The optimist in me believes that reactions are making it in, so I've pretty much shifted my focus towards showing off some of the fights in the new Solasta campaign as a means of previewing what higher level fights in BG3 might look like.

Especially when it comes to mage battles.

I've come to realize that I don't think we even have an example of what a mage fight even looks like in BG3 thus far. The Crown of the Magister campaign in Solasta didn't have much for mage enemies (or encounters against NPC enemies that actually used dangerous class features), while the new Lost Valley campaign has a fair amount of them. The counterspell duels there can get pretty damn freaky.

BG3 is probably going to turn that concept up to 11 towards mid-game, and I'm kinda giddy about it.

At this point I'm quite positive that I will not be supporting Larian with any of their projects ever again. They have actively ignored this forum, strategically addressed shallow requests for publicity just because lots of people have went overboard over reddit and twitter, they seem to not have learned much from previous EAs and outright lied on how this EA would be handled.

So far in EA we should have CLEAR AS DAY info on what the fully released content would be...

You do realize programmers can't really know for sure what the content will be until they finish coding it... Peter Monelyx and others has tried doing what you ask and predict what they will deliver and gotten horrible burned by you for failing, so most companies has completely given up on visions and other future prediction stuff, as it's far too easy to get it wrong.


We just got the Barbarian update and hopefully another one is on it way, so the EA seem to be going fine and it seem like our feedback has created major changes, so the EA is a success for us.


I do think they might have run into a problem because they seem to have predicted the EA period would be shorter than it ended up being, but that is a future us problem, as I don't think we have run out of planned EA updates yet.

I think I saw you interpreting what others say in other posts in a very vague and stretchy fashion and I feel like it's happening here as well. I never burned anybody and I never said anybody should guess if their code will function properly at the end of a release. What you're stating here doesn't make any sense as programmers have nothing to do with the contents of the game as they have nothing to do with recording dialogues. That's just not their job. Also both Pillars of Eternity production and GOFUND me campaigns or whatever platform they were on, is a grand example on how wrong you are to your stretchy assessement.



How does releasing a class equates with a succesfull EA? There are major technical issues present from day 1, constantly discussed and analyzed in this forum. They recently released 2 hotfixes stating in both of them that the aggro glitch that makes every NPC hostile is fixed, yet it's still present in the Myconid Colony. The performance is getting worse and worse by the patch, as of the latest we have camera angle problems. So no, the EA is not a success for us lmao...


We most certainly haven't run out of EA planned updates cuz the game is still a hot technical and designal mess......

BG3 isn't a Kickstarter project, and buying into EA gives you the privilege of playtesting early and possibly influence the development, even in the slightest, in exchange for paying early. You're a customer, not a supporter. Clearly there's a lot to desire when it comes to Larian's community management - outside of the rare updates around the patches, but to feel entitled to such is foolish. That is a bygone era, gaming is big business. Nor do I agree it's fair to say Larian is completely ignoring the forum. They obviously read opinions and have course corrected on a few of my main concerns/grievances, like excessive environmental effects on cantrips and excessive advantage shenanigans for instance.

I completely understand this is not a Kickstarter. I was refferring to content information and promises as to how the game will look like in the end. I have in mind a roadmap with content goals as of a progressing development and a plan on how to integrate said new content. I think having a clear look and setting promises on a Kickstarter as of the final image of a product is way more risky than setting goals on a constant developmental environment. That is all I'm saying in regards to the comparison. I'm assessing how logical, if at all it is to cut such slack for Larian as of Miravlix's comment.



Why Early Access?
“Through releasing Divinity: Original Sin and Divinity: Original Sin 2, we’ve learned that working directly with our players during development makes our games better. RPGs this large, with so many avenues for player choice and exploration, thrive from feedback as new features and fixes are incrementally added to the game.

Early Access gives players a chance to participate in development, and it gives us an opportunity to explore different game ideas with a live community to find what works best. We want to learn how you play the game and use that to make it a better experience for everyone.

How are you planning on involving the Community in your development process?
“Since we announced BG3, community discussion and feedback has shaped what we’ve said and done. Though we have a strong vision for the game that runs throughout our team of 350+ people, our goal is to create a game that gets our audience – you! – excited, and to maintain a healthy relationship with those who take the time to provide feedback and help us to improve.

We use data collection tools to help us better balance the game, but we also listen to feedback wherever conversations about BG3 are happening and we use that to drive internal debate. Working with your thoughts, feedback and gameplay data helps us to better understand how our ideas are received and how they can be improved.”


This is how this EA is still advertised. Do you feel this is accurate at all ? If so, why are mechanics like shove, rogues still the way they are, while there are countless analytical posts from people in this very forum laying it all down? Also I have aknowledged these changes you mention in my comment characterising them as shallow, in terms of the longitude of the EA (undestandable since I didn't clarify). Of course, that's all in comparison to the current technical image and gameplay design and philosophy of this game.

They do, obviously read opinions. Addressing massive concearns for publicity in the earliest state of this EA was what they did, as mentioned in my comment "strategically addressed". When they changed the dice and surfaces I remember articles popping everywhere about how Larian splendidly handles their communications and that they listen to the community, which in light of the last year in this EA, not true, at all. What makes credible acquaintances is consistency, and not superficiality.

Do you feel they addressed any other critical concerns in such a meaningful approach? I can't see 1 Dev comment in any of Niara's analytical posts or any other concentrated feedback people have pulled out stating concerns or contemplating credibility of said analysis. Literally NONE...

Not sure about that "as day" part ...
But i believe most of us have some idea how would certain things lookalike in the end.

More to the pessimistic side rather than the optimistic I suppose... I mean, I believe the branching of choices with so many different options and interactions based on every aspect of the character is something it seems like they might "nail" as of 1.0. The story also seems very promising. The gameplay aspect of it, not so much of an optimist...

Depends on person i would say ...

Im quite optimistic about some things ... and quite pessimistic about others ... as i would dare to say most people around here. :-/
Sure some gets more to one side ... another gets more to the another ...

But if you are all dark and gloomy ... all i can say that you probably should not buy the game, until you know exactly what to expect.
But that is allways a lotery with preorders, isnt it?

I almost feel the same tbh.

I haven't bought this game as an evolutive demo. I've bought it as an early access and even if they had obviously listenned on some major points, I have the feeling that our deep feedback and suggestions have been totally ignored. Some of us are spending a lot of time to analyse and write things and we even don't have some kind of "this was read by the devs" message...

And it's not only about the very active community... Shove as an action is a common complain everywhere just like jump/disengage was. Yet shove is still a BA in patch 7, more than 1 year and a half after release...

I have the feeling that we're just tools that feed their tools (data) and nothing more.
This lack of communication during an EA is a shame and they should probably give more ressources to their communuty managers (or hire someone... I even don't know if they have one...)

I do agree that their communication has been CRAP. Really makes me sad. I still love Larian, and I still have faith in the game, but yeah... abysmal communication.

I refuse to believe you actually play video games to find Larian communication bad.

Does that even mean anything?

They do not apparently, they have posted an ad a month ago saying they're hiring a community manager.

Just wondering if this <EA> process was even fruitful for Larian. They got a boat load of $$$. But comments are minimal, updates are minimal, community feedback <> Larian is minimal.
I feel 95% of the game IS basically DONE AND DONE for Larian (on paper). The remaining 5% is tweaking stuff based on EA feedback lol.

OR they know and just say F**K IT!



I'm good with a long development.

Eh, we got Height Advantage/Disadvantage stamped out.

Pretty sure the game's overall balance would have been a complete disaster by late game if that had stayed in. The EA's already worth it from a feedback standpoint from that alone.

Hope they have combat experience!

Seriously, they will need to have both tough skin and an open heart to the community concerns. They will need NOT to take comments personally, but neither should they be walked on...kinda like a school Teacher (truth and joke at the same time).

It would be nice if they gave feedback like:

We are considering that.

We like that idea, but are considering different ways to implement it. (Followed by a request for feedback).

We wish we could, but....

Of course we will have a day not system, this is a Balder's Gate game (Holy Crap they need to put some concerns to rest!).

We will have Multi-class.

We will not restrict level by area.

We WILL make elves more Elvin (Hell, I think that thread comes with schematics, but its not just about looks).

Ect, ect ect.

This would be prudent...and its time to be decisive and make some judgement calls...or roll some dice if they can't.

For me this is just UNBELIEVABLE that 2 years in EA WE STILL have no SOLID idea of exactly what ALL the classes/kits will be. No SOLID number for companions.
Nothing on future gameplay plans towards this homebrew D&D system.
At this point I am wondering....Is Larian even MAKING THIS GAME? It feels its being contracted to offices in India , Spain or Poland. So they actually have no idea on how its progressing.

Maybe a weekly Faerun lore news update? Something to IMMERSE use in your world Larian?
Instead of just bloating sub-par kids fan <art> once in a while. SHOW US YOUR CURRENT BG3 PRO CONCEPT ART INSTEAD!
Its like Larian is deliberately trying not to make us interested in their world; "leave all that work to FANS! " ?? Or the laziest excuse of them all, JUST GO READ THE D&D MANUALS !.

i be honest i hope they dont pull a cyberpunk card. but of course no one expecting that and i believe no one would. and also i hope it doesnt happen. and true, Larian can do more in keeping the updates and revealing details to keep in touch with the fans.

I don't quite understand why you would expect to know any of it. Larian released early build, gauge interest and releases everyonce in a while stuff they want the audience to test. They said more or less what they plan to include at launch, and to be honest they have no benefit of sharing specifics early.

Playerbase have no direct influence on development, so unless Larian wants to hear what fans think about certain aspects of the game, player feedback in areas they don't is irrelevant. Those who bought EA won't be spending more money on BG3, so it's better to keep as many things confidential for release to build hype for the rest of the potential audience. It sounds like you have issue with advertising and community engagement:
Which I find odd. You already bought the game - what difference it makes to you and me how they advertise themselves? Teams who manage marketing are not game devs - how good they are, or what they do is disconnected from the game that is currently made. Maybe as a person who doesn't engage with social media much, I am just not worried if devs don't want/aren't allowed to post stuff - it is a multihundered dev team - you won't get a direct communicate that you can get with small indies, with team members in constant communication and fingers in every pie of the production. I know more of how BG3 is shaping up then Starfield or Avowed - I can hardly complain, even if I am not happy about some aspects of the game. It is still at least a year before BG3 release. I can't imagine them coming up with weekly newsletters for that lengthy amount of time... nor am I particularly interested in receiving more spam. If you wanna read up on Feurun, resources are all there.

Again, we expected and still expect this approach because this is how this EA is STILL advertised. Which is a blatant farce at this point.

The only "promise" I can find is:
Sounds about right.

One of the endearing aspects of the old BioWare forums was that the developers regularly posted on the 'boards. It was not unusual to see a few of them every week or so. Zeschuk, Muzyka, Darrah, French, Gaider, Smedstad, Ohlen, Bartel, and many others posted on and off over the years. And if you were really lucky, you'd glimpse a rare sighting of Winski! Pure gold. All that interaction generated a strong connection with the internet audience, and to me that was part of the BG experience. It is a double-edged sword to be sure, because some people do not have an ability to filter their postings and things could get hurtful, but even in those cases I admired the BioWare people for always being so respectful and setting a professional example. The Larian forums do feel a bit like a police interrogation room, with Larian on the other side of the one-way glass, looking in from unseen depths. I'll be happy if at least a couple of our discussions here result in improvements to the game.

It's a 2 page thread and I have literally copy pasted how they present they will handle/currently handling this EA from their Steam ad in the first page.

Thanx. Seen it now:

i think Larian is living up to that. Larian has a their own strong vision, and uses data/feedback to shape that vision. They did respond to player bases concerns, even if they didn’t respond to all of them or in the way some people would wish (like creating minicamps, instead of implementing different camping system, or modifying high ground bonus/removing backstab advantage)

As to your question:
Are those opinion representative of a wider BG3 playerbase? There are relatively few, repeating faces popping up on those forum since EA reared out its head. There were some recent community polls but amount of participants was very small. Most active users on this forum might have some leanings, but we are likely not the only/main force shaping BG3.


The bit I cut out from the steam ad is the most questionable one:
I do agree that it would be nice to have more feedback from Larian. On one hand I understand: with such a large team, who is really in a know and in charge to safely share details with community without misrepresenting or overpromising? But it would be nice to get a clearer response or explanation on some of the topics.

I would go beyond calling it questionable, and call it plainly a failure. I mean, if anything north of 10-20% of the EA players think that Larian's level of communication is disappointingly-low, that their avoidance of discussing/acknowledging certain concerns is sad, and that overall they do not maintain a healthy relationship with the community, then I don't think one can say that Larian indeed maintains a healthy relationship with the community.

Sure, it would be nice to have more feedback from Larian. But it would also be useful and efficient : as many have explained before (including me), knowing what's definitely-staying, or still-under-consideration, could allow us to focus our feedback on where it can be useful. We would know what to expect, what not to waste our feedback-writing time on, and Larian would spend less energy filtering out our useless feedback.


I don't think that having someone dedicated to keeping in touch with the community presents unsurmountable challenges. There is no risk of over-promise if all that Larian says is "no, X is not going to change" or "hey, we see a lot of talk about Y, we're sorry you don't like it, but we like it as it is and it won't change", or "hey, we see a lot of talk about Z, we will think about it, but that's not our priority". And it would be real nice to have an acklowledgement that they see topic Z as an issue (or not an issue).

Likewise, they are not being too specific and over-promising if they say "in our vision, <this_description> is how players would approach the game". At the moment, their strong vision is something I can only deduce/reconstruct, partially, from some of the things they said, what they have put in the game so far, and how the game evolves.

Other companies have managed to handle EA communication way better. I don't think it's that big of a challenge. But it's clearly something you won't do well if you don't try. And it doesn't seem as if Larian has a lot of will to try.

"Game is dead " lol. It's not even out yet. Larian +/- said how this EA will be handled. Ngl the " We want a small community to interact with " kinda backfired. The community ain't small and they struggle with interactions.

Two things are sure : Never again EA from Larian until they propose a plan to lead those EA.
They will make a great game regardless.

Yes you are right.
But I was thinking more in terms of what if you DIDNT buy into EA but ARE a fan of D&D and Baldur's gate. Apart from these silly Larian anouncements we have a couple times a year and youtube lets play videos...It doesnt feel like they are trying to engage us to join in this new world and adventure.
Thought it would be nice if they had some kind or Lore gazette every week that loosely ties to the game; to build up that world and immersion once you start playing. I for one HATE being spoiled, I played EA very sparingly just to test things out.
Yea we have the game but everything around BG3 feels...empty? Not sure how to describe it.

I think I get what ou mean, Planescapist. It feels as though Larian isn't really trying to build hype for the game, either with those who bought the EA or those who haven't. It could just be that our opinions are skewed because we're interacting with the game regularly, when in reality this is that phase in every game's development when things are quiet and they're not doing much to market it. However I do feel like they could do a lot more to build up investment. I remember when Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous was doing its kickstarter, they released loads of lore throughout the campaign, talking about classes, races, the lore of the world and the companions. They had a bunch of things going on even after the kickstarter to build hype for quite a while. They would tweet, they had streams of the prior game, etc. Larian could do stuff like that to build hype. I would love getting some lore of Faerun articles, bits of history, stuff that they can just pluck from old material and put out with relatively little effort that can entice people into being interested.

I don't know how much is truly realistic to expect from Larian, but I will say that that they haven't maintained a healthy relationship with the we who have decided to give them feedback. And I do think at this stage they really should have more concrete info to give. We know that they said back at the start that they're aiming to get all the player's handbook material into the game, and I do believe they'll manage that, but by now we should have gotten confirmation. And even if they're not going to tell us who they are or introduce them in EA, they should be able to tell us how many companions we're going to have available. Surely if they think they're going to release the game next year, they have to have that much info settled. Even if they haven't impleneted stuff, they should be at a stage where they're certain on what they can actually do. Especially since those aspects would need a good amount of planning ahead of time. I would imagine that number of companions and choice of classes are things that should have been settled long ago.

I would like to know the number of companions, too (if it is final)!😊

"There will be 10 companions" one year later " There will be 8 of them actually " " THEY LIED! BURN LARIAN ! HANG THEM BY TH FEET".

To be fair, Owlcat never publicly confirmed the total number of main (as in, non-mythic path specific) companions for Pathfinder WotR either. The very last companion is never publicly talked about in any promotional material either, and a lot of new players wouldn't know about this last party member at all unless they looked them up in advance.

Not a big thing to get hung up over, really. I don't recall knowing the total number of companions before release/during early release being standard practice at all, it's just that the way the DOS games handled that (of which it was a byproduct of the Origin system in DOS2) might have conditioned a lot of people into thinking it was.

adding more party characters in pathfinder wotr will be much easier compared to bg3 IMHO. if anything wotr creating the characters will require less budget. a nicely hand-drawn portrait, text-based dialogue (with some voiced) no real cinematics required. that's being said, i rather have larian focused on the meat of the gameplay like what owlcat was doing rather than big AAA budget for cinematics and full voice over. this is no brainer we wont get much companions, NPCs, let alone branching dialogue and choices. those budget can really just used and focused on said gameplay like reactions, more writings, branching dialogues and perhaps multiple endings too. only main acts and important conversation should have cinematics and fully voiced in my opinion.

Maybe the number of people who bought the game EA were more than Larian expected to buy the game in total, and since the EA buyers are already locked in and cannot get a refund Larian doesn't really care anymore how things turn out going into full release. Any additional future sales are just icing on the cake for them. Just a thought.

In any case, yes, I am one of those people @Planescapist is talking about, someone who has not bought into the EA but who SHOULD be an automatic sale for Larian given that I am a passionate fan of the original BG games. And yet Larian keeps finding ways to alienate me. Why?

Not me! Throughout the game I would like to cherish the feeling that every character that I encounter might be a companion. Reaching the point of knowing you have a full roster is like dying a litle. It feels a like the beginning of the end, the journey downhill until the game ends. It is just like the point when you realise there are no new quests coming in.

Let´s compare it with real life: How much fun would your life be if at birth you are made known the number of good friends you are going to have?

It may not be as much "fun", but at least your expectations will be tempered.

And how much time could be saved talking to wrong people, if you knew who is worth chatting to... or who are potential romance options.

That would be awesome.

Real life = definitely no reload, and no replay as far as I can recall ...?

A company's reputation is worth every effort. CDPR knows that very well....

Reincarnation principle would disagree

Depends.... I had weird dreams sometimes. And they were super realistic. Feels like i quick load from time to time.

Hey speak for yourself. I am Hindu, sooo ....

The issue is one of recollection. But I must agree, there are definitely times when I feel there is something profound within the concept of reincarnation. The spell still exists in 5E, and I think it would make a great topic for a story line. Imagine being reincarnated, and then going back to the things in your former life, but viewing them through different eyes! Whoa.

That's actually a dope scenario for a movie. Hell even for a game. Not necessarily a D&D game. But yeah.

Completely off-topic, but there are people around the world who say this is true for them, that they can recall with astonishing accuracy personal details of things, events, and people from their previous lives.

That is almost the story of Pillars of Eternity .

Huh! Yeah, I just read a plot synopsis for PoE ... animancers & Watchers, a bit confusing and thus appropriate for one like me who often wanders in the unknowing mists of Leira anyway. I guess Planescape has an angle somewhat like that as well. I would not use a reincarnation as a plot device for the PC's story, but rather as an NPC subplot. That way you could write it the way you want.

Not all of us are locked in. Those who bought the game on GOG can get a refund during the entirety of EA + first month after full release.

I plan to request a refund once the game is released. I already understand that it won't be to my taste, but wife wants to try it yet refuses to play EA version. Oh well.

I don't really plan to "refund" the game to begin with.
In fact, I wouldn't want to do it even if I was offered the option now, almost two years of EA later.
With all its flaws, I'm still rather confident that BG3 will AT WORST be a game I will enjoy spend time over with a first playthrough.

Which may sound like a big endorsement at first glance, but in reality I'm meaning what I'm conceding here mostly as "certification of acceptability". Because while I don't particularly doubt BG3 will be a somewhat competent and reasonably enjoyable CRPG, at the same time I kinda gave up on any hope to see it turn into the modern classic I wanted it to be at first.

For several reasons, frankly, starting with Larian's stubbornness with sticking with the worst control scheme ever used in a traditional CRPG, and moving to a good half dozen of other talking point I already discussed at nauseam for the past two years.


All this aside, I have to admit I'm strongly under the impression this final rush of development will coincide with a lot of unintended cuts over the original plans.
The rate of improvement over the almost-two-years of EA so far has been concerningly slow despise the EA itself being far longer than anyone expected at first.
Even assuming "a lot was done behind the curtain that never came to our fruition", it's hard to believe that what they have is considerably different than what they are offering to us to test... Aside for all the content past Act 1, obviously.

Looks like a new Panel from Hell is around the corner.

https://old.reddit.com/r/BaldursGate3/comments/uxn3k8/panel_from_hell_teaser/

Seems to be teasing Bard or telling us it's NOT Bard.

Yay!

Maybe a new reaction system? Double yay!

Im affraid my low skill on english got me again ...
Can someone please point me towards that part based on what people expect Bard? O_o

I mean, i know usualy its just "i want it therefore i hope this will be it", but just i case i missed something.
Thanks in advance.


//Edit:
BTW what is hijinks? Google translator dont know that word. O_o

Hijinks are pranks, shenanigans, tomfoolery, getting into and out of trouble. Those things are associated with the bard.

The tweet also mentions laughter in the scrum, which is probably a reference to Tasha’s Hideous Laughter, and teasing and taunting, which probably points to Vicious Mockery. Those are two iconic spell/cantrip that the bard can cast.

Edit: by the way, that tweet only has 30 likes! Are PFH announcements always this subdued?

Hard to conceive of Bards without a heavy rework of either the current reaction system or the abilities that make use of reactions. This would make the next panel of hell the most interesting one yet.

I see, thanks.

And i would not call this announcement ... this is much closer to some kind of pre-announcement tease.
Also 40 likes in less than 3 hours seems fine to me. O_o

Well, it's either rugby (scrum) being introduced into Faerun, or fun crazy shit - so Bards I should think. Hope there's plently of pratting around and seduction to
be had! Sounds good!

It's not an announcement from the proper Larian/BG3 twitter account, but a small tease posted by a single developer from his personal one.


In terms of public reach is basically the difference between, say, "Elon Musk said X on Twitter" and "One friend of mine that works at Tesla said he heard a rumor".

They better finally include level 5, this is getting silly now (with the sheer amount of experience we can get before even entering the underdark proper). Testing level 3 spells and multi-attack would be a useful thing to try out as well.

I wish, especially because as pointed out several times in the past classes stop blending together and feeling "same-y" precisely past that threshold, but I'm not optimist about it.

Or multiclass ...
Or custom party ...
Or ability scores rolling ...

All those things would make another participation in EA much more appealing, speaking for myself.

Quite honestly, even if they would not feel confident enough about level 5 ... even forced multiclassing (like you can reach level 6, but you can "FOR NOW" invest only levels 1-4 to each class) would be interesting to me.

Multiclassing with a cap level at four wouldn't really do much, would it?

Depends ...

Some classes seems appealing even on lower levels ...
For example Fighter will give you Action Surge, Druid give you Wildshape, Rogue gives you Cunning action (and should give you Expertise right on 1), Sorcered provides Sorcery points (and Wild Magic feature?) on level 2 ...
Those things could change tides in many tedious battles.


But the main point (at least for myself) is still testing ...
Larian have ugly habbit of creating incredibly chaotic UI in their "first attempts" ... so i would like to see multiclassing UI rather sooner than later.

Level 5 is important because it allows them to test:

1. extra attack for weapon using classes
2. level 3 spells for magic type classes

It is by far the largest spike in power that you will obtain in your characters career.

In most cases you are nerfing your character if you multiclass before you reach level 5. You will *eventually* hit that power threshold, but you delay it by however many levels your multiclass dip lasts. This is often a bad idea.

From Larian's perspective, if they actually want to test the balance of their encounters then they NEED to allow us to reach class level 5 (not character level 5). Anything else is just more faffing about.

I see what you mean. Still, this is coming from Larian’s Director of Publishing (whatever that is). I think it’s a little weird that the first public word of the next patch for a game that’s sold millions of copies still only has 56 likes and 8 comments (two of which are Ragnarok )

Edit: I think Larian are keeping level 5 in their back pocket to be the main feature in an upcoming patch. They may be planning for the worst, like a four year EA, and are hoping they don’t run out of bones to throw the players.

If that 4th year means day /night and no toilet chain you son of a bitch, I'm in!

I care more about getting new outfits and body sizes than other options right now. I'm tired of the same looks throughout the game, wearing the same armors, always having the same robes, looking somewhat scrawny as a barbarian.

I just remembered this today ...

And i wonder ...
The final part of that tweet "there will be no teases, taunts, or tells this time" ... sound to me pretty monk-like ... dont it?

Man can dream.

Monk is precisely what I would have guessed it would come first of the three remaining classes, mostly because it's the least dependent on a (possible) reaction revamp... But then this vague tease made things less obvious.

Still, now that I think about it, it's vaguely annoying that aside from a vague promise to "work on improving it" we still have absolutely NO CLUE on where Larian wants to bring their reaction system, exactly, and how they plan to improve things.
Are they still adamant on making it as automated as possible or are they planning to give control back to the player? One can only guess.

I wonder if there is any chance that we would get two classes, or maybe all 3 ... after all, and lets be honest about it, time is getting quite short. :-/

Also agreed ...
It would be quite well to know what they are planning ... and i mean in general.

Time isn't really getting that short though. It's still 6 months to the earliest possible release date from the current expectation assessment. It could easily be 9 months away, or they could shift the release date goalposts again.

If I were them, I'd keep those rounds in the chamber for as long as possible. On the one hand, to space out the fresh meat for the EA players, and on the other, if the game releases a little early, there could be one class that no one has touched.

When it takes 4 months to add a single class and do little-to-no noticeable improvements/changes in other areas, 6 months to a year starts to feel like nothing.

And presuming they would release 1 class each 3 months ... it would mean that first 4 classes get aproximately 24 months of testing ... while last one will get 3 ...
Not exactly best situation. :-/
But irellevant, presuming they will not include desired changes anyway (Expertise, Scrolls, Spells preparing, etc.). :-/

Personaly i believe that the best approach from their side would be to release all 3 remain classes now ... that would bring lot of life to this kinda sleeping comunity ... and prehaps some content update (new zone) ...
Next patch should be focuseed purely on features ... or maybe add some missing subclasses (and we still miss a lot, especialy for Wizard) ...

That should keep us entertained for aproximately 8 months +/- ...
Third (or Last for EA) patch would be a little harder nut to crack tho. :-/

But so far the most popular patch was 5 (if i remember it corectly) and that was pure mechanical one.

That assuming that Larian cares for us to test the classes. What are the unique features of other classes that haven't been already tested with previous classes? Unless Larian plans to introduce new unique homebrews with those classes, then there is really nothing to test. Revamped reaction come to mind, if such revamp is coming, but other then that I can't think of anything.

What do you mean? O_o

There is many things that Bards, Paladins, and Monks do ...
There is also many things that subclasses that so far was not released to EA have ... just take channel divinity spells for different Clerics.

I mean unique features - like metamagic was unique for sorcerer or they revamped throws for barbarian. Like if they revamp reactions then bard makes sense as a next class, as from what I have heard it relies heavily on reactions.

For example, if they implement palladin's smite using the system similar to one they use for fighter's superiority dice, then it is not a unique feature - Larian already tested it through fighter. Same with channel divinity - it's already implemented. It does different thing for different subclasses but I assume thgre isn't really much to test there - just more variations on offer once 1.0 drops. I am not well versed in 5e, so I can't tell from top of my head if palladin had any unique systems - from my Solasta playthrough I don't remember anything particularly unique, aside from reactions.

Looking at monk I can't see much that I count visualize being added using features we already tested. Partial defence stands out mostly because the game doesn't have "dodge" function.

I am not saying that Larian shouldn't test other classes, am just theorizing that maybe they don't have to, if they build them using the same tools they used for other classes. If there is something you are aware of that is really unique in other classes, please, let me know what it is. I don't remember D&D classes having unique gimmicks the way they do in PoE.

Larian adapts well known and well tested system, so they probably prioritise testing things they change rather then things they keep as they were. Multiattack is at the very top of the list of things I would personally like to take a look at, assuming of course they won't implement system faithful to 5e for release.

What they choose to release in semi-functioning states in EA does not reflect what they actually have in their own internal builds.

But hell's bells I hope they revamp the reaction system something fierce... along with other things. I am certainly getting happier and happier for each build, but... I just hope we get control of reactions, full action shove and some other nice DnD 5th faithful changes.

I see ...
Well quite honestly i dont know ... im still newbie in 5e myself ... maybe combinations of those separate systems?

That would apply better for spells tho. :-/

Watching <DOS3 : a Baldur's gate bastard child> evolve to what we are getting and left over Larian fans arguing towards its greatness is now just amusing to watch unfold.
Man did I have unrealistic high hopes for this game.

I think this sums up the difference in <vision> perfectly :

The latter image is all flash...all spectacle, like a video game; it will become dated in a hurry.

The former image is far more grounded and will continue to feel timeless.

Wow, those images really do show something important. Sign me up for an adventure!

I like how the warrior's shield features a frothy mug in the center, obviously a root-beer float.

I will say that if the game comes out in the second half of 2023 that Larian significantly underestimated the scope of the project that they undertook not just once, but multiple times. Either that or they will do it to dodge competition with Starfield, Cyberpunk 2077 expansion, Hogwart's Legacy and some other early 2023 games.

The length of time in Early Access is already starting to feel a bit excessive, but pushing it to nearly three years would be pretty crazy.

That being said I agree with them needing to keep the 'rounds in the chamber' and I think it is a very real possibility the game does come out later in 2023.

Excuse my ignorance but are these both legit adverts or something?

No. The top image isn't even from BG2. IIRC it's actually the original cover of the 2nd Icewind Dale novel, Streams of Silver.


You can clearly see Bruenor, Drizzt, Wulfgar, and Regis here in the art/book cover and not anyone from BG2.

I'm not sure where the bottom image is from, but from what I can tell it doesn't look like official promotional art for BG3 (it's not using any of the actual promotional renders).

Nah ...

Its just picture coppied from BG-3 memes topic ...
https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=814936#Post814936

Anyway i find it quite funny ...
Someone decided that people who are either wearing no armor at all, or are wearing armor (helmets) that would actualy endanger their own lives much more than help ... are "true adventurers" ...
While people who are actualy (able to) do some adventuring, since they are in middle of the fight with real enemies instead of roaring to screen edge ... are cosplayers.

That irony is just too sweet to leave it unappreciated.

Oh there are lots of helmet types which were actually used in warfare. The Greeks had many kinds, such as the Thracian and Beoetian types, each of which had pointed or extended tops. The simple and practical Pilos helmets often had wings or horns added to them. Similar things are found on Samurai and Persian and Indian helmets. Constantine's "Cornuti" soldiers appear to have had horned helmets. Although an added feature like a horn, plume, or wing may not have any direct effect in terms of providing defense, these things were very useful for maintaining command, and for knowing who-was-who in the chaos of battle.

Have I missed some new statement from Larian studios? BG 3 full release is not within year 2022 forget it already. 2023 yes that is 98% sure so (2% chance postponed to 2024), but when exactly in 2023 I do not know. I would not give it even 1% chance 2022 release.

Regarding will they release level 5 to Early Access at some point I do not know. That is entirely up to Larian but they have not promised that. That said possible, but simply said I do not know what will happen regarding that.

However regardless of above things said I believe very strongly that Larian will release out more stuff to Early Access example classes etc.

You haven't missed anything. Perhaps I didn't word it clearly, but I was referring to 2023 as the current release target. But noting that Jan 2023, which is about 6mo from now, isn't necessarily going to be the point in 2023 when it's released.

6 months from now is end of November 2022 or early December 2022. However lets assume you meant January 2023.

This is a pure guess not some inside information. That said I would guess BG3 is released within first 6 months into 2023 example January-June 2023. Yes so January 2023 is possible but my guess is roughly within time frame January-June 2023. I could be wrong and it could be later 2023. Unless Larian themselves give more information it is hard to know because we can not see the content in Act 2 and Act 3.

Now anything is possible theoretically I am not going to complain if Larian would release to Christmas 2022 and I would be very happy if that happens. That said from what I have understood 2023.

The main bottleneck is cutscenes, a feature noone cares about.

It has already been established in these forums that there are people who actually enjoy the cutscenes so in that you're incorrect.

And even if it wouldnt ...
Seems pretty clear that people in Larian do.

Maybe a healthy middle ground: cutscenes for important stuff and the rest can do without them. It would help set ressources free for other important stuff, like working in a meaningful reaction system for example.

How would that work? Some cutscenes don't have dialogue, just a character delivering a single line. We would not lose much if those interactions don't have a cutscene. But still the line would need to be audible, and it would need to be supported by appropriate movement. If not, that would interrupt the flow of the game. So if sound and movement are indispensible, all that remains for a cutscene is setting the camera. And perhaps camera position, focus and framing need not even be set manually for each encounter. Probably there are sensible defaults.
So my point is: it is quite possible that all the cutscenes combined take only a very small amount of development time.

Well....actually, according to this article it seems like all the cutscenes does indeed slow down the development if I understood it correctly.

You click the NPC then it look like this.


Easy, already done by Larian, already done 20 years ago.

Hey a new update everyone!
For DoS2, its on ipad.
Now we know were Larian priorities lie lol. Mobile ftw.
Now thats done, we might soon get an update for BG3? Available now on smartphone maybe?!?!

Man Larian better bring out their big guns soon. I really hope what we are playing right now is a BETA version of the game they finished <base> designing 1 year ago.
But looking at the industry as a whole, this is HIGHLY unlikely and as always we will get a buggy, unfinished , made in progress release.
I have a funny feeling the DOS1/2 Larian and current Larian , things are quite different.
I mean who can blame them? You get married, have kids, need a stable income to retirement...that first passion fades out like after 10 years of sex with your same loved one.
What happends NEXT is a studio buyout. Id say probably around 2024/2025 for Larian.

Did they actually work on the iPad version themselves? A lot of the time porting the game is outsourced to a different company.

Cutscenes definitely will cause a sizable amount of extra work, and like voice acting in general it makes changing dialogue during the game development harder.

Whats hilarious about this IPAD port is the regular DOS2 game right now does DOES NOT RUN on the newer M1 pro MacOs , since 2021. ROFL. The game fails to install (GOG).
I and many have mentioned this to Larian, no response on this issue.
So yea, totally different team.

Hi people!

I am pretty sure Bard Class is coming with Patch 8. What do u think?

Based on that status from Very AFK? Or was there any other lead?

If that is the source, it feels to me quite Monk-ish aswell ...
So i boldly dare to hope for either multiple classes, or none and full focus on mechanics ...
Im not sure what i would preffer tho.

Mainly because of the twitter post. "Most entertaining pannel yet" and no more "taunt". The whole thing screams bard to me. I mainly hope that they adress the reaction system question, too. Just to show us what are they planning.

Well, for me the "most entertaining pannel" would be if they would release all remaining classes. :P
Bcs (and yes i admit i quibble here) if they release only one, in matter of classes it would be as entertaining as every single PHB til now.

No, I mean "entertaining" is a pun from the Larian guys. The bards are being entertainers and all...

Yeah i know what you mean ...
I was just providing what i mean aswell.

Question tho:
I wonder ... am i the only one who have this odd feeling like every single week (after that Very AFK tease) Larian posts some Tweet ... that isnt related to next PFH, but instead is about is like slap on our face?
Sometimes i feel like im overreacting a lot ... but then again, frustration is cumulating ... dunno, thoughts?

Seems like a good time to mention that the steam logs show BG3 being updated with patch 8 files starting a few days ago.

This was pointed out 4 days ago on the Enzevil youtube channel. I don’t know how to link to these things with a phone, but the information is available on the community tab of Enzevil’s channel. There’s also a link to the relevant steam page. It shows files being updated as recently as fourteen hours ago.

My conservative guess is: PFH announcement next week and PFH the week after that, though I’m hoping patch 8 drops next week.

Sorry to say, but data on steamdb appeared monthes before release for previous patches.
But with the Tweet I doubt we'll have to wait monthes. Who knows...

Crud.

The timeframe seems about right, though, doesn’t it? P7 dropped on feb. 7, P6 on oct. 14, P5 on jul. 15. Earlier patches were closer together, but the recent cadence seems to be around three to four months.

Maybe it’s all just wishful thinking. In my defence, wishful thinking is amazing! It turns reality into dreams.

Don't they usually do an announcement about branching to give people time to prepare for the new patch? At least a week or so before the PFH.

when is the next PFH?

It wasn't announced yet.
many are basically assuming it will be by the second half of June since one of the devs started to tease its preparation just a week ago.

New interview with Swen. Nothing major but he talks about Shadowheart’s artifact and the challenge of having choices in the game.

Is that meant to put the game in a positive light? Commitment is admirable, but it sounds to me like they are putting a lot of resourced to make up for a bad decision, rather then making impressive reactivity. Many games gate their progress unless specific requirements are meant - if PC needs to get the box, then so be it, there is no need to overthink/overproduce it. Giving a story critical item to a companion, does sound like a very shortsighted idea - single character runs (which Larian itself supported in D:OS2) come to mind as an immediate conflict.

Edit: Don’t want to unnecessary criticise Sven and Co. - some of my favourite developers made really bad calls in a hindsight. “To err is human” and all. Just expressing my confusion to see that content before release - the content of the video gives me GDC post-mortem vibe of “we will tell you of bad, expensive mistakes we made, so you can learn from it”, but the vibe seems… celebratory? Yay for us for creating a problem and sinking resources into it.

"fucking amateur" came to mind.

Mistake number one: hiring someone from the JJ Abrams school of plotting.

Patch 8 - New class? More subclasses? Karlach able to join the party and be a full companion? More poorly-designed items? Shove made to a full action?

Its odd to hear them both talking about how the team have to think about any possible choice we can make ...
Compared to gameplay, where we are on the contrary loosing choices as the game progress rather then gaining another. O_o

Basic reactions are:
- Kind acceptance
- Kind denial
- Mocking
- Avoiding the answer
- Rude denial
- and roll intiative

I believe every dialogue should provide "at least" those ... but it dont.

Here is "short" list of choices im missing.
https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=741085#Post741085

On one hand you have to appreciate the dedication to the craft.
On the other one, I found myself wondering "What if you just made very clear that the box was important and you were supposed to keep it, and then reserve yourselves the right to FUCK THE PLAYERS hard if they simply didn't listed to the advice?"

Why is a "fail state" for things (and especially one purposefully caused by the players ignoring any advice, not related to a random chance) so much of a tabu in modern design?

it seems to me they are emphasizing that the box caused alot of unnecessary issues that may have potentially disrupted the development of the game. not sure if people playing bg3 really is for the permutations. it's great to have branching choices but i rather like a simple campaign as long as it's fun and the focus should be heavily towards combat. i played solasta and greatly enjoyed it. i don't care much about the characters or the stories. i like the combat, the classes and the builds.

All I hear is, "We bit off more than we could chew."

That said, I get it. I totally understand and actually have been expecting something like this for some time. With every conversation having to be a cutscene dialogue even with the most minute characters, ANY story branching is going to be costly and difficult.

I'm just hoping the game doesn't suck in the end as a result. It starts strong, but I'm afraid it'll finish poorly.

And all I also hear is, "All your suggestions, players, are pretty much going to be ignored forever. We've got bigger fish to fry. At this point, take it or leave it."

This was my reaction too. So much resources spent on a screw-up? Why? Why not just remove the box from SH, place it in a very prominent place, and give players a strong "vibe" that they need to take the box. I don't think there is a DM alive anywhere who would go to this length to give players thousands of permutations for an event. They would just tell the player: "You need to take this f___ing box!!"

Imagine all the other things about this game that all those person-hours of work could have been applied to?!

It’s disconcerting to discover the cost of such a small decision. The interview shows just how ambitious it is to both cover every permutation and animate every scene.

My takeaway is that the likelyhood of any change made to EA is inversely proportional to the permutations it requires adding. This makes me hopeful for the removal of bonus action shove/hide, but worried about the addition of any kind of time tracking system.

Seems like the issue is less that we need the box and more that it is tied to Shadowheart’s story. So you really need to interact with her in some way to gain access to the box. You’d think they could’ve done a scripted encounter like the first time we meet Laezel to solve for that.

If you're tying yourselves into knots because the pc is going off-script, you shouldn't be throwing it back at them repeatedly and in more and more obtuse ways. You should just write what happens when Arthur doesn't extract Excalibur or Luke doesn't shut off the targeting computer.

If the box is important, then write what happens when the bad guys get it, we'll be meeting up with them by the end of the act anyway. And punish us for being thick too.

Lots of assumptions there...

Yeah. I'm just saying. My expectations for this game just went WAY down.

At this point, forget all the suggestions we've made. I'll take what I can get. Finish the game and be done with it.

If the BOX was that much trouble...

The iPad port isn't done by Larian. googling it comes up with Elverils Studio

they could really have spent those time and resources on said.. reactions? which is a very important mechanics for a dnd5e game. or said easy implementation of 5 or 6 party characters? or day and night cycle or.. resolving the chain system once and for all or.. even ya know of polishing the game and make it less DOS like and more bg..

but no... the box. i do hope while they focus on the box the valid players concerns are still being taken care of.

Swen know he screwed up. He calls his decision bad and himself an idiot. At this point, I bet they’d be open to pitches for a fix to the MacGuffin conundrum.

They did not learn from being overly ambitious on DOS2 at all. This is the same thing that plagued DOS2 and why it was half-baked on delivery, even the "Definitive Edition" didn't fix the issues.

This game is going to be a disappointing, buggy mess. And then you'll have to wait an extra 2 more years after release for them to overhaul and do a Definitive Edition.

This story about the box is an illustration of how difficult it can be to allow players many ways of playing the game, based on dice luck and decision making. Having many genuinly different permutations greatly improves replayability of the game, be it fully or partially. I assume many people will appreciate replayability. I think Larian should be applauded, not derided, for taking that aspect of making an RPG seriously.

Interesting. Extremely weird choice to make a character in your party mandatory and then play around trying to create the illusion it's not. I can understand it how it could work in a D&D campaign but in a game? Sven mentioned the issues itself. Ngl cutting it down to receiving that box and being forced to have it would be more obvious.

Strange they wouldn't already know that based on DOS:2 experiences. They already had quite a lot of permutations there with Loes and the demon. But making the ENTIRE GAME and dozens of cutscenes as a variable of one choice? Wtf.

I'm extremely curious about the GDC following the release. That's gonna be interesting tow atch.

It's like this:

My players always joke with me about a game session of Star Wars where they in no way planned on going to the planet I wanted them to go to in order to continue the story.

So I literally had a hyperspace malfunction which caused them to hit a meteor and then crash down onto the planet. To this day they say things like, "is this one of those situations where you are going to crash the starship into the planet,"and we all laugh about it and have a good time.

I do admire their dedication to giving players a choice, but I do wish that they had spent more time on things that would make the game better and more immersive. I wish they had just crashed the starship into the planet with the box rather than allow players to have the choice.

100% agree. This is a game that has already given me plenty of entertainment, and I enjoy replaying it, even in early access.

I also want to say how refreshing it is to read something positive here. There's generally a sea of negativity from folks who apparently know all the answers.

If I were guaranteed that BG3 hit its full potential, I’d be willing to wait half a decade.

I agree that DOS2 has issues even after all this time. I quit halfway through because of all of the low impact admin involved with leveling up.

But I really like 5e. Even if EA doesn’t improve the game that much, I’d still play it as a fun tactical spell ‘em up.

While I understand the appeal of how reactive Larian RPGs can be, that aspect doesn’t do all that much for me. I find the variations boil down to fight or no fight. Also, most of the game time revolves around combat. Therein lies replayabilty for me. As long as party members are restricted, my playthroughs will all feel the same.

Being called over-ambitious isn't the worst thing. But This is such a trope of D&D story-telling that seeing them fall into this narrative trap is a little suspect. It's a video game, there will be a script, but there are many more elegant ways of working around plot essential items.

I am glad that Larian is being ambitious and pushing boundaries. More devs need to do that to keep setting the bar higher and higher. If BG3 releases a little buggy that is okay. If it is a disaster with game breaking bugs then that will not be okay.

I personally think they have prioritized some things that they shouldn't have. The ability to get into a cinematic conversation with every single person in the world seems overboard. I think it is a great feature for any NPC with legitimate dialogue options, quests, etc... but I see no problem with being able to just click on an NPC and if there is nothing significant coming from them then they just say a one liner or something like that. I imagine just cutting that out would have saved a ton of time and dev costs. It's cool, I think it s a neat feature... it's just something I would add as kind of "one of the last features" as opposed to making it a "top priority item".

That is to say, I think they should have moved forward with development and if they were ahead of schedule or feeling good about it - include it. If not just leave it out and if you want to add it later if the game sells well include it in the definitive edition or something like that.

Also - if there is a character that needs to be in your party I think they botched the writing. Just make that character's item or something like that essential for their personal quest or whatever, but not to the overarching story. I find it hard to believe that they can't accomplish that with their writing staff... but then again I don't know the entire story yet and don't care to be spoiled.

I also think a lot of it has to do with origin characters. They had to ensure that SH and the box would be in the story regardless of who you decide to be - Gale, Astarion, Lae'zel...

Especially Lae'zel. SH smarts off to me as her... Says she hates Gith.

Fine.

Cuts SH down.

that's hilarious tks for sharing

Those are not genuinly differenet permutations, though. It's a game awkwardly retconing player's actions so it's intended plot can progress. I see two main issues:
1) Some narrative progressions are inferior and unsatisfying - I personally experienced bit where . It didn't feel good - from linear narrative perspective, and player choice. I can imagine how weird it is if you never meet Shadowheart like in the video.
2) It's a lot of work to ensure the player has the thing. It's expensive, it's inelegant, and it still doesn't feel natural or good. "make sure player has/understand the thing before..." is a classic issue - this is just a not good way of handling it. It's work that could be spend implementing proper reactivity - the one that responds to players choice and gives feedback to PC actions, rather then retconing them. It reminds me of Alexander from D:OS2 - a guy you can kill multiple times throughout the game, you even get one "scripted" moment to kill him or spare him, and the game constantly retcons it, because at some point it was decided that he is critical to the story. This is a horrible implementation of "plot armor".

The notion of tying oneself in knots comes to mind.

If an object is integral to your story, then make damn sure the player has a strong reason to seek it and/or keep it. The plot of The Lord of the Rings comes to mind; if Frodo loses the Ring, the permutations are potentially enormous.

The problem is, they're trying to pretend that we can do anything we want, but they also made a very specific box absolutely required for a plot point, and attached it to a character, so now we have this character that is either stalking us, and seems more important than other characters, or a magic box that just follows us around. Neither one feels like we have a choice.

I agree with the above post, if you want to make something integral, then they should make it an important part of getting healed, or protected, or something. As it is, it was just SH's secret, and so if you don't like SH, you don't care about the box. it's frustrating how they decided to present this.

Agreed.

Also, if you are going to make a character or an object they possess that important then you should put that character in the position of someone like Malady from D:OS2 rather than an actual companion.

So dissapointing video lol.
It really looks like they don't really know what they're doing...


Stop trying to re-invent the wheel on so many things Larian. You don't need that to create good games.

I would say the best way to handle it is to just not give the player a choice. Have your player pick it up, and "put it somewhere safe". It doesn't appear in the inventory, and the player pulls it out of their ass whenever it's required for the plot. Other rpgs do that all the time, it doesn't have to be a "omg, i can't throw this thing away" item, but as it is now, they've tried to give the players choices for every little thing, and written themselves into weird corners where SH just pops out of nowhere "tada!!!! box!", which is worse imo.

Or if Shadowheart doesn't come with you, have her taken to Moonrise, where we're heading anyway. Or have the Absolute's mind link work...putting us on the path of looking for The Weapon. there are so many ways you could write around this that don't involve, falling rocks.

As it is, I will say that characters who aren't interested in everything related to their tadpole and the absolute can be said to be working against their own best interest. Waving a mysterious box under our noses is enough for most people to be interested, but it becomes a little unseemly when you start doing it repeatedly, before violently clobbering us over the head with it.

Definitely what I was thinking about when I said "stop trying to re-invent the wheel".

Just put this artefact at the end of the tutorial. The player take it because it looks important. Some characters are looking for it so our character understand more and more that it is important.
A few "permutations" are still eventually allowed - i.e you can give it to the gythianky but they try to kill you even if you gave them... so game over OR after the fight, they're dead and you take it back.

Question ... isnt a little late for that now?

I mean its great idea ...
Would make A LOT more sense to have it somewhere nearby than Shadowheart being locked in pod with such important item ... and if player would ignore the item, they could simply find out on the beach that artefact is in their pocket ... it seems to have its own will, since it litteraly dont let you throw it away, so ... why not? And personaly i love it!

I just wonder how many conversations they would need to rewrite, or straight up delete. O_o
Seems like a lot. :-/

It sounds like they are still in process of rewriting and re-recording it. I think better implementation of getting the box wouldn’t be a big issue but a bigger challenge would be “what to do with Shadowheart.” The box is part of the story so she either would be removed or her content/purpose greatly altered - coming up with ways for the player to have the box in spite of their actions is probably a more cost effective alternative.

Actualy i think that would not require much alternation ...
I remember in some past patch, she said to me when i had the box something like "seems like it wants to stay with you ... okey, as long as you keep it, i will stay aswell" ...
Something like that could work ...

You take it > you have undroppable box ...
You dont take it > it takes itself.

Shadow wants it ...
So you can give it to her, and she stick around ... so you still keep it close.
Or you can not give it to her, and she will either stick around to watch you (it), or she try to persuate you if you have positive relationship ... or attack you if you dont.
And if she die, or you send her away somehow ... the item re-appears in your inventory next morning, just as it would if you ignored it at the begining ... and next evening Shadow can re-appear in your camp, wanting her box back and you dead so it stays with her this time.

(Just as The One Ring ran away from Golum. )
Also ... i admit i really miss that old psychotic dialogue you get when she ambushed you in middle of the night, bcs "voices keep bothering her, and something drags her towards you" ... it was much greater than what we have now.

I don't know... people keep saying they should have just made it obvious... How much more obvious could it have been? The emphasis on the whole Shar/Selune dichotomy, the fact she is a follower of Shar... And she has this weird artifact that is clearly massively important to her.

It's kind of like that whole average character thing... They gave us all these choices and we still manage to be as vanilla as possible. They put something important in the game. That thing is really, really difficult to ignore. And they made it even more obvious as time went on... At some point, it's incumbent on us to pick up on it. I feel like we're complaining about them giving us entirely too much credit.

I feel similarly about this to how I feel about the Grove/Goblin routes, there's a clear way that a reasonable character would choose, people who don't have Shadowheart on board are probably making a point of working against the game. I would guess that these are all problems for after your first playthrough.

That still doesn't excuse writing yourself into a corner like this though, especially when you're making a game that is up-front about choice and consequence.

You all do realize that the box was an example to illustrate the point in that video? How on earth can you debate about the box for several pages is beyond my comprehension.

Yeah? That's EXACTLY why it's being discussed.
BEcause it's not strictly about "the box". It's about driving yourself into a corner in an attempt to chase convoluted design decisions.

......Side effect of an unexpectedly long EA period?

Who can resist the lure of the mystery box?

It was a cute little video intended to show off Larian in a human light. One of the things they're most praised about online for BG3 is the way they've given the player so many avenues and choices. Plenty of players like that they can skip Shadowheart and see her show up later at the druid's grove.

This video showcases that work. It does so in a somewhat humble and humorous way, illustrating the size of the workload they've tackled while admitting that they still have to rely on the occasional clumsy and heavy handed scene if the player actively ignores every other obvious path.

What I suspect they weren't doing was asking for advice from every armchair game designer on the planet.

And if you manage to keep ignoring SH up to the goblin camp, she "follows" you anyway so that the box can provide protection when needed. I've not tried ignoring her again after that important cutscene. I wonder what happens if you do that?


Yes, Larian seem to prefer "push" communications rather than interactive. I guess here Swen is trying to highlight the sorts of dev issues that take time, perhaps to try to cool the criticism about the lengthy EA period. Personally, I prefer to wait for the game to be ready, rather than play yet another unfinished game release.

But. That. Is. Not. A. Choice.

My initial response was precisely response to what you have written. Does Larian think this is some kind of amazing reactivity? My issue isn't with it that Sven made a bad call (those happen) but that they seem to use it as advertising? Again, maybe Sven is indeed honest to a fault, and I can respect it, and he is just sharing an anecdote of unintentional consequnces of a decision they made just because he finds it interesting.

My only two main point against "the box" are as follows:

1) it is "anti-reactivity" - the game retcons player's decision to ignore/not recruit. It doesn't REACT to players actions, it attempts to rectify them.
2) It's expensive and inelegant. "We give player freedom but need them to do something specific" isn't a new problem. It's as old as gaming. Box example isn't giving player freedom, it's Larian poorly scripting mandatory story bit. And yeah the problem originates from giving a story critical item to a companion, who is by design skippable. Creating branchig paths depending on player having access to the item or not - that would be reactivity.

I suppose my reaction is that negative, because that was precisely one of the issues I had with D:OS2. "You can do anything but nothing narratively matters".

Edit.
I am not terribly offended by the content of the video BTW, in case I am coming off too negative. "We have made a poor decision, and am sinking resources into subpar solutions to the potential problems" - I just find it an odd content to see prior to release, as I mentioned in my initial post, that is something I would expect to hear in Post Mortem. In defence of the design, the most extreme situation will be hard to get without someone intentionally trying to avoid Shadowheart - as such, a clumsy cutsene might be a reward in itself.

That said, I must say that I found artifact teleporting to PC to be unsatisfying narratively. So NOW Shadowheart is fine with us having the artifact "because it chose you". Why was she so protective of it, when the artifact has a seeming power to pick whomever it wants?

And people weren't giving advice either (as if it would even matter at this point in development), just commenting on it.

Which is their legitimate prerogative, no matter how bitterly you may be seething about it.

Just goes to show, fully voiced cutscenes are CRPG poison. It basically defeats any engine flexibility you’ve established. Having seen Josh Sawyer’s excellent presentation on the costs of voice acting - let alone MOTION CAPTURE - I actually can’t believe they haven’t bankrupted themselves.

I can concur that to err is human and we can all forgive mistakes to an extent. In this instance, and I admit I am being unfavourably harsh here, is that it was a totally legitimate idea which was implemented poorly. It seems bizarre to release a video admitting this, something along the lines of an attempt to garner sympathy.

As to your last point, I sort of feel that is the point of EA no? And also in a roundabout way, this video of supposed humility on their part actually gives them the perfect excuse when it comes to not implementing some much requested features because of the hiccup in the road that this box narrative is apparently presenting and the resources required to rectify it.

I didn't think it was possible, because of they've already made the "zany" design choice to give the player the heavily fleshed out choice between removing and romancing the tadpole, but this whole "box debacle" makes it seem they're even more completely obsessed with acknowledging idiotic and "funny" choices, as legitimate ways to successfully play the game. Shielding the player from self-inflicted failure on every turn.

Still somewhat suprised, that Larian's management is so hideously inefficient. Starting production without a mostly solid script, you know you can implement, especially when the game relies heavily on full VO, mocap dialogue/animations seems unbelievably amateurish. They could have just nipped the permutation mess in the bud, if they'd just stickied the protective cube into the players inventory when we awake on the beach. Maybe even make it obvious in a cutscene where the cube changes possession, that it is the one protecting us from the deadly fall.

But I guess they just couldn't resist giving the player the wacky freedom of choice(with guaranteed success) to ignore/toss potentially important character and a likely essential plot item.

I can aswer that ...

Depends ...
This all can be rewritten ... yes, it would mean loosing lots of resources in the process, but such is cost of bad decision ... you just have to either keep investing and hope that someday it somehow transform into something good ... or scrap it whole and start again ...
the sooner they realize it the better.

That said she dont have to be "fine with it" ...
Since the whole "you have what she wants" would have to be written from scratch, any attitude would be possible.
Aswell as her overprotectivity for the item ... that can either be adjusted or deleted completely.

Also dont forget that we are talking here about scenario where she either didnt manage to retrieve the box (in case it was on Nautiloid) ... or it was taken from her when Illithids captured her and put her in that pod.

Well said! All of this is exactly my take as well.

+1
honestly while story and branching choices are important i rather they focus in improving or enhancing other aspect of the game. reactions, multiclass, itemizations, subclasses/archetypes, character customization and perhaps random encounters!

currently replaying solasta COTM the 2nd time using mods. really having alot of fun multiclassing. absolutely loving my barbarian/hoodlum multiclass. also dipping 3 levels of barbarian to my paladin make her more tankier and the instant advantage is really nice. are there similar rogue archetypes like the hoodlum in DMG or PHB? loving that sneak attack with non finesse weapon.

And I think you hit the nail on the head as to why Swen released that interview. It's like he was indirectly saying, "Read between the lines players. The BOX was SO much work. Therefore, stop even remotely expecting anything even remotely complicated to implement."

In other words, Day/Night, 5e rules, multiclassing, maybe even every race as originally promised, reworking camps or resting, random encounters, a revamp on item management, any additional UI changes, reactions overhaul, and any toilet chain movement overhaul is HIGHLY unlikely going to be implemented.

You're wasting your time and have wasted your time since day 1 because something as small as the much needed box has sucked us dry. At this point, just be happy if we finish the game before we release it.

i really hope that you are wrong. IF swen and larian DID really spent a whole lot of resources and effort in just permutations and branching choices, then i'll be deeply saddened that they have took the wrong direction with a dnd5e game. they should be focusing on making a dungeons & dragons game instead of chasing the witcher dream. again i hope you and i are wrong. also swen does look incredibly stressed in the video. this is not going to be good if indeed the box is wrecking baldur's gate 3.

This has been my expectation for a long time, unfortunately.

Some of those things could be changed without any impact to the permutation system. Changes to rules, reactions or the UI don’t need mocap, SFX, VFX or all the rest involved in making new scenes.

It’s too early for despair. Though if patch 8 doesn’t change the reaction system at all, I might join you then.

Lot of assumptions and pessimism, no?

Does anyone here have any special insight into Larian's resources? Anyone seen the bank account numbers? Anyone know how many work hours have been devoted to this versus that? Anyone aware of what the developer version of the game currently looks like versus the version we see in early access?

Heck, does anyone here even know the date Patch 8 will be released and what will be in the patch?

This is going to be my first post here, although I watched the discussions for some time at this point but always struggled to actually join. Anyway...

Personally, I take Swen's interview as a sign to temper some expectations as BG3 won't end up perfect; they've clearly underestimated some things, they have much more people working on the game than they had on DOS2 (as far as I understand) and that can easily result in mismanagement, big or small. And this is fine, nothing ever came out perfect. I still think it's probably going to be great but at the same time still troubled at some points.

As someone who didn't actually play BG1/2 I feel like BG3 is under absolutely insane pressure when it comes to expectations - there's a big name attached to the game, then you have general D&D fans, then you have thier own Larian/DOS crowd, etc, and everyone wants it to be a good successor in their own way, most likely in a way that is incompatible to others'. But two dozen years passed since BG1&2, gaming changed a lot, Larian Studios are not early Bioware and they clearly have a specific vision on how they want to do things. And with all this they might as well just focus on their own vision (with adjustments to things that people seem to unanimously loathe) because they won't be able to cater to everyone anyway and they are probably too far in development to drastically change many of the systems or add more. This doesn't mean we don't need some basic systems like reactions to be worked into something better that we have right now though.

I remain VERY optimistic about the game and I LOVE their ambition and openness and honesty about things. I just wish they communicated more with the community but I'll take what I can get. I think BG3 will be *AWESOME*!!!!

I think that's a reasoned take on the situation. In addition, I thought Sven was simply being honest about the difficulties with trying to make a narrative this massive where you give players so much choice. It was kind of refreshing to hear "yea, i might have messed that up" from a dev. He's obviously taking a lot of the blame on himself with that, and I have respect for that.

also, I don't think people are arguing seriously about a "box" as someone else mentioned, I thought it was obvious we were discussing the difficulties when you try to give players unlimited choices, and how Sven realized this as well.

Let me be clear. The game is still awesome. I'm just done expecting anything else from it. If the box delayed production so much, and it really didn't need to...

But let's put things in perspective. If Kingmaker was designed as well as BG3 you would be able to:

1. Fight the Stag Lord and kill him and become a baron(ess)
2. Sneak in and chat with him and join him to fight against the Sword Lord's
3. Join Tartuccio and work with him to acquire the relic and take over
4. Possibly convince the Stag Lord to surrender peacefully.

And who knows what else. BG3 has SO many ways it could play out. That makes it superior to so many other RPGs.

+1

I second that. For me, the interview was not surrender or admission of blame or whatever some people interpreted it as, it was just a Dungeon Master ranting about his crazy elaborate campaign ideas. I loved it.

This isn't about whether or not reactivity is good or not, it's good, it's about efficient action. You don't need to create a complex system of pulleys and levers to make a MacGuffin work.
And considering how often this comes up in D&D/RPG adventure design, it's kind of strange to see it taken this far in BG:3

Ok. Let me also clarify. Whether he MEANT it as a lighthearted rant or not, the point I'm making is that the interview makes it quite plain that BG3 has been a huge challenge and a lot of work just to fix one little mistake.

Therefore, don't expect them to make major changes of any kind to the game. If that one little thing causes that much work, so you think they're going to even remotely take any other chances?

So, major element changes like Day/Night... Even party of 6 could break the game... RTWP? Heck no. Too much probability of crashing the system. Any kind of legit resting system beyond maybe limiting food more? Doubt they'll try.

In other words, EA suggestions should be brought WAY down.

Since I generally consider you among the "reasonable ones", I'll take the time to clarify my viewpoint.

I've said more than once that I'm at very least confident that even in the worst case scenario BG3 will turn out to be overall a very competent and enjoyable game for the most part, if not an instant classic as it could be.

But this doesn't make the occasional users that try their best to be gratuitously catty and passive-aggressive toward ANY criticism voiced by others a single bit less annoying.

We don't need the "damage control patrol" policing the tone and scolding the "negativity" every time someone has some disappointment to express.
And we shouldn't feel pressured to put a half dozens asterisks and caveats near every single expression of criticism just to make it more palatable.

I will keep criticizing things I don't like about the (current?) state of the game and I will reserve for myself the right to not having to list "the things that the game also does well" every time just to sugarcoat the message.
Which doesn't mean "I hate everything" about the game. Otherwise I would have started ignoring it almost two years ago.

Thank you, Tuco. My thoughts exactly.

To me, the first major blow to us was Patch 7. I had more hope before they implemented the Barbarian class. Since EA began we've been talking about the idiot Shove mechanics that are utterly ridiculous. They're as bad or worse than height advantage. And what did they do? Created throw so players could yeet enemies and anything more than 30 feet, and they laughed about it. The PFH was like a mockery for players looking for a more serious gameplay, as if they were saying, "screw all of you. We don't care about making a serious RPG. We want meme material.". They even slapped us in the face by ridiculously short resting in a spider den while the spiders were patrolling the area for them as if saying, "We're ignoring your suggestions about having a better resting system."

Now, after Swen's latest interview, it's like another hard slap in the face, so yeah. I'm a bit ticked by it. Sure, he admits it's a mistake and such, but dang it's frustrating. It does NOT inspire me to continue bothering with EA. Quite the opposite.

This has definitely NOT been a good first EA experience, and it will certainly be my last. I first posted on Steam, but that community is far worse than this forum. Geez! I remember saying something about wanting them to fix the hag fight because it was too hard, and people bit my head off and told me to just get gud. But it was very frustrating when I would have half my party die before I could even act once unless I cast Protection BEFORE I even triggered the dialogue with the hag.

And here? Well, arguing with people over every minor suggestion I make has not been fun. And that's all EA has been. People accusing other people of just complaining all the time whenever they make a suggestion or attacking one another or arguing over everything... And for what?

"Oops. We spent a TON of time trying to make people take SH but still have a choice even though they really didn't."

Ugh!

But yes. I still think it'll be a great game and I still think even if they don't change anything...blah blah blah... It'll be a great game... Blah, blah, blah...

I'm not convinced of this at all, and will need to wait until I get to see the whole game. I base this on what I read being discussed here and on other forums, and on watching youtube videos and streams of people playing the game.

I feel very strongly that BG3 likes to talk the talk about giving players all these options. But I don't buy that it walks the walk. I see only what amount to superficial or fake or lame or railroad-y "options" for players that are not *real* options. There's always only one option that is the real option, the one you are supposed to pick, and then other possible ways of doing things that are not even close to being equivalent to the main option.

While tying a plot item to a companion that a player can basically interact however they want was probably a bad idea, it is admirable to see Larian working so hard to roll with player decisions like it's a D&D campaign. It's probably one of the toughest tasks in CRPG design, and I'm excited to see if they can pull it off.

For me - verisimilitude via player freedom/world interaction is pretty huge. Which is why I've always loved Fallout New Vegas more than Fallout 3 (freedom to kill anyone vs. random immortal NPCs). And also why I haven't completely forgiven BG2 for prologue Imoen and Arkanis Gath.

Now, with that said, Macguffins are pretty common in CRPGs, and it's basically accepted that a lot of games simply forces you to acquire it to progress (i.e Bloodlines with the Sarcophagus, a certain portal key for Planescape, and even the Platinum Chip in F:NV). So Larian's decision to try to "organically" give this to you as opposed to just make an eventual mandatory quest of "get the box" is very interesting to me.

Never thought you did. Just keep doing what you do. There are very many things I am not happy with either, I just occationally feel the need to let some air of positivity in, while remaining sceptical about the end product. They have clearly made some strange judgment calls, and the game is likely not going to be the dream game I originally envisioned, but I do believe I will love it. Possibly a lot! =)

Patch 8 will release june 15th at 7pm GMT. It will contain the bard class with a few subclasses. Because the current reaction system would be a huge nerf to Bardic Inspiration, reactions will see some kind of change.

Then we’ll all try patch 8 and come back here to critique, argue, nitpick, and generally have a good time.

So I have said and so it shall be.

May the Truth be with you.

Best case scenario: a decent game, but a poor follow-up to Baldur's Gate 2 / Baldur's Gate 2: Throne of Bhaal. BGINO.

Prepare to be blamed otherwise ...

Well, if it's going to be next week, we are probably bound to hear about it by the end of this one.
Otherwise... Second half of June at best.

I feel the same way. The MTG DND Crossover Set from WotC will be released this Friday: https://mtg.fandom.com/wiki/Commander_Legends:_Battle_for_Baldur%27s_Gate
I bet nothing will be announced by Larian before this release. And I also assume that they will also promote the TCG as soon as it's officially released and maybe that's why they're waiting.

I had such high hopes upon seeing a tweet notification from Larian an hour ago, but it’s just Swen playing with a Steam Deck… Things aren’t looking good for my future as a prophet.

Lotus Noctus makes a good point about the MtG/DnD crossover dropping Friday. I could see Larian saying “have fun on pre-release weekend, see you next week for patch 8.”

One more week and it will have been a full month since they teased the PFH.

I feel like Larian has a pretty bad habit of teasing things too far in advance.

Then again, nothing compares to the Dragon's Dogma fans getting blue balled yesterday.

I understood this reference.

Still not bad as Paradox Interactive ...
But slow and steady getting close. :-/

We still have about 16 days left in June. I'm not terribly surprised we haven't seen it yet.

I've been getting surprised by Larian for 7 EA patches now, and it was always a "Wait ... WHAT?! Ohh no ..." type of surprise.

I'm getting ready to keep being surprised in that way up till they drop the first DLC for this game.

Larian is not planning on doing DLCs. They are not a huge fan of the practice.

The series of free gift bags that came out for D:OS2 were well received, and they were indeed DLC - downloadable extra content for the base game released post launch. Though if I recall, they only arrived over a year after the original release of the game, after the enhanced edition, I think? (My details on that are fuzzy)

True ...
But that both can easily change.

Well, they were free - generally DLC refers to paid post launch content with few exceptions - and I am pretty sure they were popular community mods implemented into the game as console players don’t have access to modding. Larian certainly provides post launch support (usually with enhanced edition once they finish console port).

Exactly, my understanding of DLC is purchasable post-launch content.

To me, DLC is DLC, and it comes in "Paid DLC" and "Free DLC" types... Paid is more common than free, sure, but not by such an overwhelming amount as to be definitional - at least, not across the spectrum of games that I personally play. I do find it pretty sad and telling that a lot of people treat Paid DLC as the basic definition of DLC itself, these days... it certainly did not used to be that way even a short handful of years ago (nothing against those individuals, just against the industry itself).
If it is officially released material that is downloaded for a game post launch, then it's DLC, by literal definition - the gift bags were DLC. They were Free DLC. Larian has a strong disinclination to release Paid DLC, but they're perfectly happy with releasing Free DLC.

Post release content:

1) If you didn't choose to download it and can't disable out of it explicitly, it's free, and it was made by the game developers, it's a patch

2) If you chose to download it, you can disable it explicitly, and it was made by the game developers, it's DLC. You may or may not pay money for it.

3) If you chose to download it, you can disable it, it's free, and it was made by someone other than the game developers, it's a mod.

+1

If we are piling in definitions:

I personally also like to distinguish DLC and Expansions. There just a big enough gap with what expansions in the old days offered, and the small bits of content that became popular with DLCs I don't like to throw them both into one basket, as IMO they offer rather different experience. The easiest example is Firaxis - XCOM2s small DLCs being DLCs and War of the Chosen being an expansion, with how much content it offers and how it overhauls experience on a deep level, rather then just sprinkling content on top of the base game.

As to D:OS2, it got only one DLC and that's Sir Lora was and is on sale. It got patched several times though, unclusing Enhanced Edition that included enhancements made during development of the console port.

I rarely see see DLCs. D:OS2 Sir Lora isn't really that as I think it was pre-order bonus for console release with existing D:OS2 owners getting it for free), Witcher3 that released bunch of "free DLC" to keep player engagement leading up to paid DLC release, and similar thing happened with Deadfire. DLC release in those cases has been more of a marketing stunt, then anything else. There is really no reason to release new beards as a additional free download instead of just patching it into the game outside PR.

4) If you chose to download it, you can disable it, you paid for it, and it was made by someone other than the game developers, That's Illegal! (and no longer protected under fair use or transformative work laws)

In the spirit of being petty and nitpicking everything apart for no apparent reason, I'd like to point out that Dictionary.com defines downloadable content as "purchasable."

U sure? :P
Bethesda and their creation club would disagree.

And Wikipedia defines it as "additional content created for an already released video game, distributed through the Internet by the game's publisher."

Honestly this discussion is pointless, it is like trying to define what a RPG or a dragon is, everyone has its own opinion on the subject and the definition is a moving target.

Meanwhile I'm extremely literal, to a point any game you download is DLC because it's technically content that you download. I sorely want a new definition for "post-release addon content" entirely.

Same as RPG, I half consider almost every single game, including FIFA, to be roleplaying games, as you take control of a character and play its role in a game, so you're playing a role of someone else than yourself in a video game, hence roleplaying game.

Derpy I know, but technically it kinda makes sense :P

haha, i've seen that definition of RPG as well. Technically it's correct, but it dilutes the phrase so much that it becomes pointless, which might be the point .

It's funny though, I have never really thought of it, but I see DLC as purchasable after release content. and I usually think it's smaller than something like an expansion. It's so interesting how we all think differently about common terms.

I'd prefer some additions, like action RPG, MMORPG, and for games like BG3, Witcher, KoTOR etc I'd say adventure RPG. If insisting on keeping RPG as a term at all, that is.

I think what most people consider an RPG includes genre, so sci-fi and fantasy. Everything else might be called simulation. It's still not adequate, but it's a start.

This is much more interesting than DLC semantics

We have it easier in Czech ... roleplaying game is translated to our language as "hra na hrdiny" ... litteraly meaning "game of heroes" (via google translator)

That narrows it down a little.
Not much tho, but at least you cant really include FIFA.

I wonder what something like Witcher or Mass Effect would be considered if they didn't involve any sort of character building, it was just dialogue options, and the same combat, and that's it. No levels, no equipping gear, no skill selection. Heavy Rain is one of the few games that had dialogue options but no number crunching, and I don't really consider that an RPG.

people already derogatorily call those games visual novels or choose your own adventure

Sounds like a tell-tale game ala Life is Strange

I don't know Rag, for a lot of people, those soccer players...are considered heroes :P

What a term means, and if naming of the term is appropriate for thing it represents are two different discussions. I don’t think it is relevant how DLC is interpreted by an individual, but what it was coined to represent. It’s a bit like an argument that metroidvania isn’t a good term, because it doesn’t explain itself to new players - which is a fair criticism, but it also doesn’t make metroidvania mean something different, when someone misuses it.

Even if a term is widely misused it doesn’t mean that the word changes its meaning - people keep calling any piece of music “songs”, but it doesn’t change the fact that song is a specific musical form with voice, and people who keep misusing word “song” are [CENSORED].

That said, definitely DLC could use a neater term. Having to abbreviate it is a problem in itself, and as it has been proved it’s actual meaning is not well represented.

"Games as service"

or

"How to retain customer engagement through three quarters"


related to this is how few people actually finish games, so really it's like a surcharge for the players who care enough to pay for more.

Aaaanyway ...
We presumed something should come in June ... anyone remember why we presumed that?

Wishful thinking?

Thats what i think lately ...
Since that tweet seems to be a little missleading. :-/

I'm going to disagree with that last bit on principle, because for me, if I'm buying DLC, it's to spend more time in a game I enjoyed. 90+ % of the time anyway. I own all the Solasta DLC, for example of that other ~10%, but I haven't finished the main game yet. As an aside, I own all the Witcher games, and all DLC, and I've never finished one of them, but CDPR was doing right by their customers, so I supported that. However, when I bought DLC for Dragon Age, I didn't buy it thinking "they're charging me for finishing their game", I bought it because I was enjoying the game, and wanted more content for it.

Did you mean "Trying to re-create the subscription-based payment systems of the 2000-2010's era MMOs, without understanding why the vast majority of games with that system ultimately failed"?

Ironically, if you read MMO forums, there's a vocal group that wants all the F2P games to have a subscription model.

Because (once again, ironically) it's usually WAY cheaper than the "free to play" approach.

I'm still a little surprised that people think F2P is "cheaper" than subscription based games. A SINGLE empowered rift, or whatever their called in Diablo Immortal, can cost you $20. That's like 4 - 5 minutes of "gameplay" and reward for $5 more than a months subscription on something like FFXIV. do four empowered rifts and you have yourself a full expansion in a sub based mmo.

I still remember this comic, and it's still true:

Then there's players like me, that don't spend a lot of money in F2P games. I paid a sub for ESO, for example, because I wanted the crafting bag, and in swtor because of all the stuff I like to do that I'm essentially locked out of, unless I want to drop a couple hundred bucks. Now, I could have, and could have skipped out on the sub, but it actually was cheaper, for me, to just pay the sub.

There is a big gap, though, between F2P league and F2P Diablo Immortal.

No business model is inherently bad/evil. All types of games, F2P, subscription, single purchase, DLCs, expansions, can offer a good value of money, but unfortunately when a CEO thinks how he can get a fat bonus at the end of the year, greenlighting finely crafted games with fair business model, while treating his staff like valuable employees is usually not an answer.

My main, (and really only) main argument and gripe against F2P models are how the allure of the money through monetization may negatively impact how a game is designed from the ground up, at the expense of the player's natural experience. See some recent Assassin's Creed games with grindy content but you can buy exp boosts for convenience to speed it up. Would it perhaps have been made differently and less "repetitive" if microtransactions wasn't a thing? Or SWOTOR, the MMO, that has some pretty severely limiting features unless you pay for a sub, to a point where there's basically no point in playing the game unless you pay for a sub.

Or basically everything about Diablo Immortal, which genuinely could've been a pretty good Diablo game, if made as a full priced genuine title from the get go, with no microtransactions in mind. If you remove any paid anythings in Diablo Immortal at the moment, the base game is fundamentally broken, as you can't get higher than rank 2 stars (out of 5) and gem ranks gets exponentially more expensive as you improve them. And there's basically no point in Diablo's gameplay loop than grind for stronger gear to kill stronger enemies, so they'll drop stronger gear so you can kill stronger mobs. If there's a cap to that, it's a cog in the fundamental gameplay wheel of Diablo imo.

Genshin Impact has a pretty good model as far as F2P goes, but it also benefits from not being a competitive game or have PvP in it, so balance doesn't really matter. Hence much less pressure in farming for the best characters, items, etc. If it had a competitive element, then it'd be bad, as any monetized design that directly influences player power levels through either progression (gear upgrades) or access (unlocking characters), it's bad.

People, at least in the west, generally prefer to pay a flat amount by either subscription, or upfront for box title, and the gameplay itself to be an even, level playing field from there. Preferably anything should be obtainable in-game through playing the game, without any external factors, not even exp gain boosts. Yes Ubisoft, not even that.

I also vastly prefer subscription models over the typical P2W F2P model. There was a great game I played years ago: Spiral Knights. MMO cute hack and slash with 1-4 player dungeons. Originally it was a subscription model - everyone got limited daily energy to dungeon-delve, but for $5.99 a month you got unlimited dungeon-delving (and essentially could convert your free daily energy into valuable items).

Then they changed it to a F2P model, removing the dungeon-delving limits per day. Great, right!? No. They also replaced the fairly easy & quick progression system with an incredibly tedious, grindy, and annoying system. Heat to raise item's exp, then orbs to level up said items, then even rarer materials to advance said items to the next tier. Oh, and there was only a ~30% chance that leveling up an item would be successful, unless you used a lot of orbs. Oh and the drop rate of those items while playing was horrible. But guess what you could buy in the store for real money? I estimate it would have cost me >$30+ per month to gain the equivalent amount of progression I originally got for $5/mo.

Also something something runescape, but I only played OSRS-no lootboxes or dailies, but solely member vs nonmember-so can't comment on the current version.

tl;dr: F2P models often suck and make a game less fun *because* design decisions are centered around encouraging players to buy microtransactions

Disagree. Or at least, I'll assert that certain business models are inherently *more* evil than others, if not necessarily objectively Evil. Offering value doesn't make them not evil.

Lootboxes, dailies, FOMO-inducing limited time events, ads...all are inherently more predatory and addicting than a single up-front price-point for a game. The following line says it all:
"Good" F2P games are the exception to the rule, and often qualified as being good mainly in comparison to other F2P games.

Completely agree. The recent Diablo Immortal fiasco has only cemented that in my mind. "It's a mobile game, what did you expect?" It really does say it all.

Yep. Glad you read it correctly.

I play Lord of the Rings Online, one of the older mmos still going, it originally started with a sub model, but went ftp with paid after maybe 2 years online. Despite what a lot of people feared would happen, that game has not turned into a monetisation hellscape. Most of the big ticket items in the store are actual content, region packs, quest packs, expansions, or character-based items that give boosts, not instant wins.

BUT they never got rid of their sub options, and gave subs a currency allowance and free access to non-expansion content that you would normally have to pay for. It's not perfect, and they've still struggled to find the balance between paid and non-paid players. Now, LOTRO is actually one of those games that you can genuinely not pay for, because it's not hard to grind in game for store currency, and people do so, to great effect.

I like to compare mmos like LOTRO (and DDO, which is made by the same company), with mmos by Cryptic. Crytpic had a similar start with some of it's older games, but they very quickly embraced the f2p model as it became popular. Their older games retained their sub options, but their newer games did not (they did eventually, but after the damage was done), and those games did turn into a monetisation hellscape, because without the option of falling back on a regular income from players, they began to get exploitative. I played NWO for a few years and got continually very upset at the level of money-grubbing going on, until I stopped playing entirely. It's also upsetting that that game is WOtC's flagship mmo for D&D.

Fair enough - I meant it in more general sense: F2P vs subscription vs. DLCs vs. single purchase. What you describe are engagement/monatization methods and can appear in all kind of releases.

While F2P are fascinating topic ...
I thought this one it for crying that we want finaly next PFH and Patch 8 anounced.

And i do! Come on Larian, dont give us another sad weekend.

Even if Sven drops a hint, that still means the actual patch is still a week or two away, right?

Well, imagine if he doesn't.

Genshin Impact is actually legitimately good. It's just too bad it does have gacha stuff and that it's largely modeled around player retention, but it's a fairly high quality game all around and the game doesn't try to pressure you to spend money at every opportunity. Does it stand up to a high quality single player game? Maybe not, but after playing it for a year and a half, I think it's rather unfair to pair it with the rest of the mobile gacha scene. It's just kind of its own thing at this point.

(It's also pretty much a PC game in all but name only. There's a significant part of the playerbase that wants the devs to drop mobile support because it controls AND runs like shit on mobile, the file sizes are getting way too big for most phones to handle, and there's a belief that designing Genshin with mobile in mind is holding the game back.)

Ehh. I will be abandoning my PC for a month this Sunday, so can’t say that I care at this point.

While i bet you are important person ...
I still kinda do and your potential absence didnt affect it much. :-/

You did say "we". I assumed you were referring to collective BG3 playerbase.

I was ... kinda.
Sure there are exceptions tho.

Well (back to original topic I started), looks like we're gonna pass through June with no new patch. Lets hope July fares better.

My hope is for

(1) At least 1 new class (Bard or Paladin would be awesome).

(2) An increase in the level cap to level 6.

(3) One new area to explore.

level 5 is where all the fun begins. i think releasing level 5 should be saved for final release. what i'm hoping for probably more to what upcoming changes the game will be in terms of gameplay like reactions, random encounters, more party characters and maybe new feats or tech.

I would like to hear Swen clarify his past statement about level 5 ...

When he said that they didnt decided yet if they will include level 5 into Act 1 ... did he mean Early Acess, or Act 1 as a whole ... basicaly confrimming level caps for Acts?

I never assumed he ment level caps for acts of the story, but...

On one hand I hate the idea, it takes away from a players experience mechanic-wise. On the other hand... it would be a great way to pace the story and make sure we don't have too high levels as a party to the adversity of the act.

It is more than sure the EA will be capped where the normal game won't be and hopefully the new patch will introduce level 5 - it is a big milestone and it would be great if had the opportunity to give out out opinions on it.

Would love to know what Black Isle studio thinks of BG3 <grins> lol.

You mean BioWare? Black Isle was a publisher of BG1&2 but made Planescape and ISDs

I doubt that original Devs would be protective of their old IP. I am sure they would do things differently nowadays anyway.

Bards and hijinks and romances for patch 8!

Bard or monk, I'd be superhappy 🥳🎸

Yes, I want bard

I am still hopeful for a Level 5/6 multiclass Half-Orc Bard/Cleric

That's basically setting yourself for guaranteed disappointment.

Well, if one of the things mentioned (and maybe an increased party limit) comes with the next patch, I'll be happy. ;-) But that's probably just as naive as some hope the release will be in mid or late 2023...

https://twitter.com/larianstudios/status/1542523400886689792

[icelyn]





[/icelyn]

Mh. A tease without a hint to when to expect it sounds like we are still talking about something more than a week away.

I haven't seen any timeline attached, so it could be month(s) away. I wish there was a timeline.

Very much looking forward to patch 8!

I presume that Larian knows my birthday is coming and so they will make PHB next week for me. :3

i want paladin.

https://twitter.com/larianstudios/status/1542553663427813378?s=20&t=DIqhQRmbtwLWmr4i10fwtQ

The hat, the rock stage. Definitely Bard

They confirmed 2023 release few weeks/months ago I believe. Which officially makes it the first release date they confirmed.

12 months is a large window. I will give you that.

To elaborate: there's a very remote chance we'll see the level cap raised to 5 (but I wouldn't count on it) while it's basically a given that neither new races nor multiclassing will make it in the next patch (and at this point I doubt in EA at all).

I'm okay with new races not being introduced in EA honestly. There's less mechanical stuff to test with them, so they can afford to just not include more at this stage. Plus it is something worth saving for full release. Multiclass I think is probably something they should test before launch, but hey, devs release complex games all the times without EA testing, so I'm sure they're doing soemthing about it on their end.

Well, I won't throw a tantrum about it but I can't really say it makes me happy.
For one, because it's a symptom that things are being included far more slowly that originally suggested when the EA started.

And that aside, I'm in dire need to have something new as a stimulus to go through another playthrough.

I see it as Larian not wanting to show everything before release to keep some new content for existing players. I'm very ok with it, I already have dozen of hours and I trust Larian for the release.

I already knew that, but it's not a guarantee. How often has it happened in the video game industry that it was said: For reason X we are postponing the release... Of course I would be very happy if I'm wrong, especially with BG 3 I want to lose myself in this game. But let's see which game comes first... (I'm also waiting for Diablo 4, Dragon Age 4, Hogwarts Legacy etc. but in the end I only have time for one game). I have the odd thought that it can also happen because other popular game series might come out in the same year (possibly 2023?) that Larian then decides to postpone his own release...




Lesser testing time for me then. But lets see what will happen... Maybe there is another interesting stuff e. g. deities...

Quick update on the "box" and Shadowheart and the permutations video. I just had to play through completely avoiding Shadowheart just to see how jarring it was, and holy, it was worse than I was imagining. Seriously, out of nowhere she just pops into existence with this box, and starts talking to me as if we've met before. I told her to go away, and she said "please hurry, i'll just wait here for you". so she just stands there? waiting? until the next time she'll magically appear? Or will the one ring, i mean the box betray her and come to me of it's own accord?

What's worse is, I was curious to see what would happen if I killed her, so i did, and THEN they do the magical box comes to me and won't let me drop it scene. Why the hell didn't they just use that in the first place if it's such an important part of the plot? I..wow. I really hope they redo that part. I know it's EA, and we know that they're aware of how ridiculous the scene is from that video, so I do have faith they'll fix it. I just had to see it for myself.

rant over

Yeah it's somehow worse than it was 6 months ago. I tried ignoring Shadowheart on one play through, only for her to show up later like that, but now we have all the additional scenes with the box as well. If it's the box that is the most important thing, not Shadow herself, then please find a way to give us this important macguffin without also forcing an entire person on us. If Shadow's story with the box is the important thing, then she can just show up later, she doesn't have to be forced into our camp.

During that play through where I ignored her until she showed up, her interaction went strange, i could talk to her, but I'd only have her generic greeting as she crouched on the ground, and then end, So she was just in my camp being totally useless. Pretty sure this wouldn't happen if I tried ignoring her again, but there was no reason for this to happen in the first place.

At least "She" is showing up with the box at your described playthroughs... Try

Thats the neat part ...
They dont even need to "find a way" ... people allready found it for them to use.

Just put the Box on some table next to Shadowheart pod ...
And voila!
- you either save her and she picks it ...
- or it seems important and you pick it ...
- or you ignore it ... and when you fall on that beach ... surprise! There is something in your pocket!

If you team up with Shadow she can have it ...
If you kill her it will fly to you ...
If you ignore her she will stalk you until one night she decide to attack you in order to retrieve her box ...

Seems perfect to me.

I thought the idea was that the mind flayers we're also after it. So SH was hiding it in the pod with her so no one could get it. Best they could do was infect her. I mean, she's a trickery Cleric, so I was guessing she used her powers to deceive them so they wouldn't find it. But, you know, it's all speculation. We don't really know.

It's still early access. Hopefully they tweak this a bit more and in the end it all makes more sense.

Dunno ... she only says that the Cult of the Absolute wants it ...

But even if they would be after it i think this scenario would be useable ... i mean they were "after us" aswell, and we were on board.
Things just messed up during transport.