Larian Studios
Posted By: Accessdenied Attributes in character creation - 24/01/23 08:27 PM
Does anyone know if Larian is going to stick with the attribute allocation that they have now for release? Or will they allow different systems of doing it?

When I look this up I find mostly just arguments on what's the right or wrong way of doing it. I'm sure there will end up being mods for this in the future.
Posted By: Silver/ Re: Attributes in character creation - 24/01/23 08:28 PM
There is no known information
From : https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=829734

Quote
Starting Ability Scores. Will we be able to roll for them, or freely assign them ?

Rolling and Point Buy will be available. Source : official FAQ.

Larian said they would implement 2 or 3 ways of determining your starting Ability Scores, so they might allow Free Allocation as well, or variants of Rolling and Point Buy. Source : Twinfinite interview.
Posted By: Blackheifer Re: Attributes in character creation - 24/01/23 08:41 PM
Originally Posted by Accessdenied
Does anyone know if Larian is going to stick with the attribute allocation that they have now for release? Or will they allow different systems of doing it?

When I look this up I find mostly just arguments on what's the right or wrong way of doing it. I'm sure there will end up being mods for this in the future.

Point buy is going to remain important for Multiplayer. Unless they limit your roles like its meant to be done in TT.

I actually hope they do that, limit to one to two rolls, with the ability to choose the best rolls from each set. In a way proper rolls would potentially result in a weaker character if they do limit to just one roll RAW and you can roll as low as a 3 (highly unlikely but possible) or a 5-6.

RAW on rolling.
Roll 4 x 6 sided dice.
Remove the lowest dice result.
Add up the remaining numbers to get an ability score.
Write down this ability score on note paper.
Repeat these steps until you have 6 ability scores.
Assign a score to each attribute on your character sheet.

Then if you really get bad results you can switch to point buy. Tail between legs. haha

or did you mean unlimited rolls until you get the stats you want? I say no.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Attributes in character creation - 24/01/23 08:51 PM
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
I actually hope they do that, limit to one to two rolls, with the ability to choose the best rolls from each set.
Why?

There is no reason in Singleplayer, bcs no matter what limitation you create ... people can allways simply cancel creating new character and start again > therefore bypassing it completely. laugh
And as stated few times previously, people should be able to ruin their own game, if they wish to. :P

And in Multiplayer ... i can imagine two reasons:
- Over-powered characters that would piss off rest of the group ... im sory, but if group is uncapable to achieve mutual understanding in this ... i dont really believe that fun times are ahead for them. :-/
- And time that someone can spend in character creation ... i can understand frustration from playing with someone who is rerolling his stats for 7th times ... but i can also understand the same frustration from playing with someone who still didnt decide if he like Hairstyle 12a more than 17b or 24a. laugh What would you do them, give time limit? :P

//Edit:
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
or did you mean unlimited rolls until you get the stats you want? I say no.
Me too ... its wasted time for everyone, just allow infinite point buy and be done with it. :P
Posted By: Blackheifer Re: Attributes in character creation - 24/01/23 09:13 PM
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
I actually hope they do that, limit to one to two rolls, with the ability to choose the best rolls from each set.
Why?



//Edit:
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
or did you mean unlimited rolls until you get the stats you want? I say no.
Me too ... its wasted time for everyone, just allow infinite point buy and be done with it. :P

Exactly. No seriously. The Host is going to determine the ruleset (90% of the time that's me anyway) - in that case I would choose either of the two RAW methods above to make sure we get through CC quickly an in a way that is fair. With Mods, all 4 players would have to be on the same Mod so, again, in multiplayer you are closer to RAW as there would have to consensus.

But single player. I don't care at all about. it would make more sense to just let people choose the stats they want within the racial limitations of the race they choose rather than obsessively rolling dice to pretend they are getting a fair outcome. Just put whatever. Meh.

Multiplayer provides the greater challenge and forces us to respect the rules more than single player. Them's just facts.
Posted By: dwig Re: Attributes in character creation - 25/01/23 12:08 AM
Obsessive rolling provides a nice touchstone to the original, so I think it should be an option for nostalgia, if nothing else.
Posted By: Blackheifer Re: Attributes in character creation - 25/01/23 03:54 AM
Originally Posted by dwig
Obsessive rolling provides a nice touchstone to the original, so I think it should be an option for nostalgia, if nothing else.

I know you are kidding, but in case you are not - I would say that Nostalgia is much like Sentimentality in that it is the domain of sociopaths and not a good reason to do anything.

If we view existence karmically, as a series of attachments to be shed, then Nostalgia would be at the top of the list of negative attachments.
Posted By: The Red Queen Re: Attributes in character creation - 25/01/23 05:22 AM
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
Nostalgia is much like Sentimentality in that it is the domain of sociopaths.

Wow, harsh. Or are you kidding, too smile? I mean, I wouldn’t want BG3 to be compromised by over-attachment to the originals, but I don’t think there’s any danger on that front. And some fond call-backs and connections to the original that aren’t harmful in themselves wouldn’t seem that terrible, and I know I’d enjoy them as long as they weren’t overdone. And I don’t think I have sociopathic tendencies!

As to attributes, I suspect I’ll probably continue to use point buy no matter what alternatives are offered, but still think it would be nice to add standard array and stat rolling options to the final game. And if rolling is added, I think re-rolling should also be permitted and don’t think a limit should be imposed by the game on this. If folk want to spend ages rolling for stats, or feel they need to “earn” their balance-breakingly high stats by spending time rolling for them, then I have no desire to rain on their parade. I also have no objection to allowing players to just enter any legal stat spread, based on their offline dice rolls or on nothing at all.

As has been said, multiplayer parties can agree between themselves what limits they want to put on starting attributes.
Posted By: Blackheifer Re: Attributes in character creation - 25/01/23 06:47 AM
Originally Posted by The_Red_Queen
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
Nostalgia is much like Sentimentality in that it is the domain of sociopaths.

Wow, harsh. Or are you kidding, too smile? I mean, I wouldn’t want BG3 to be compromised by over-attachment to the originals, but I don’t think there’s any danger on that front. And some fond call-backs and connections to the original that aren’t harmful in themselves wouldn’t seem that terrible, and I know I’d enjoy them as long as they weren’t overdone. And I don’t think I have sociopathic tendencies!


As has been said, multiplayer parties can agree between themselves what limits they want to put on starting attributes.

Well yeah, mostly I am kidding. Nostalgia isn't as bad as sentimentality. Nostalgia is cognition related to past memories of good feelings. Sentimentality is selfish, maudlin, and most often associated with narcissistic personality traits.

That said, I never saw the point of the endless dice rolling mechanic. I think people liked it because it gave a false sense of being lucky - but really in single player - who cares what people do, right? This entire discussion is really about Multiplayer and I think that does come down to what the group (and host) agree to.

However, Larian has an opportunity to set an example for Multiplayer runs as being more conditional on RAW. The rules matter more in multiplayer runs because the rules are there to keep things fair amongst multiple individuals.
Posted By: Seraphael Re: Attributes in character creation - 25/01/23 09:44 AM
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
Originally Posted by dwig
Obsessive rolling provides a nice touchstone to the original, so I think it should be an option for nostalgia, if nothing else.

I know you are kidding, but in case you are not - I would say that Nostalgia is much like Sentimentality in that it is the domain of sociopaths and not a good reason to do anything.

If we view existence karmically, as a series of attachments to be shed, then Nostalgia would be at the top of the list of negative attachments.

You got it completely wrong. *Not* being able to feel sentimentality is a hallmark of sociopathy, not the inverse. Take sentimentality away from the game and you're pretty much only left with the obvious financial incentive. A truly bad reason to make a sequel as loads of people very much expect sentimentality in some significant ways in a game that daringly attempts to build on the great legacy of a 25 year old game.

As for your idea of hard-locking people out of re-rolling in the single-player game, it is akin to grieving. The dice rolling graphics already in the game can be used to impose a soft-lock in practice. Simply make the player roll for each individual stat at a time and time would be a barrier in itself. But it would be much more entertaining, capture a bit of the spirit of D&D and a bit of sentimentality of the original series, while not being as frustrating as the re-roll mechanic of the old games which invariably led the players to accidentally clicking past really good rolls as they were generated instantaneously and unlimited.

The only issue I see with rolling stats in a single-player, would be unbalancing your game so much combat becomes trivial and boring. Then again, you can do the same in any game with a difficulty setting - so another way doesn't really account for much.
Posted By: 1varangian Re: Attributes in character creation - 25/01/23 11:58 AM
There's little point in having attribute scores at all if you can just set them all to 16 or 18, even in single player. All characters will have the same stats.

Rolling is also a bit questionable if you can roll as many times as you want. And you can't really control that in a video game. Unless it's multiplayer and everyone creates their characters at the same time and only gets one roll. Or two rolls, i.e. advantage in character creation to avoid super low unlucky stats.

Point buy just makes the most sense in many ways.
Posted By: Niara Re: Attributes in character creation - 25/01/23 12:29 PM
I find it amusing that you suggest the complaint of "everyone will have the same stats", and in the exact same post, completely seriously and unironically, say that "Point buy makes the most sense" - Point buy, which is the number one root source of characters always having the same stats.

You're free to use pb if you like that. It's boring, restrictive and uninteresting, but by all means use it if you want to. Fortunately, it's already been confirmed that we'll be able to roll, and that there will be that and other ways to generate the actual full spread of ability score possibilities in some way - something which point buy does not, just as a point of order, allow you to do.

Solasta's system is pretty neat, in that it lets you use point buy, but it also lets you roll and does the generation quickly and smoothly, and as well as that, lets you manually input your scores - if you prefer to roll physical dice, or if you're recreating an actual tabletop character. Choice is good.

It should be a given that in multiplayer, the host would be able to set what method the table as a whole, together, uses for generating ability scores; it would be very silly if they didn't.
Posted By: The Red Queen Re: Attributes in character creation - 25/01/23 12:30 PM
Originally Posted by 1varangian
There's little point in having attribute scores at all if you can just set them all to 16 or 18, even in single player. All characters will have the same stats.

Rolling is also a bit questionable if you can roll as many times as you want. And you can't really control that in a video game. Unless it's multiplayer and everyone creates their characters at the same time and only gets one roll. Or two rolls, i.e. advantage in character creation to avoid super low unlucky stats.

Point buy just makes the most sense in many ways.

I agree that sticking with point buy helps make sure a character isn’t wildly unbalanced and has a mix of manageable strengths and weaknesses. I like it as someone inexperienced in 5e, as it helps me make characters that work without being OP. Though I appreciate that more experienced players might find it restrictive and boring, I do think its accessibility means that point buy should probably be the default option, with players having to manually select standard array, dice roll, or free selection if they want to choose their stats another way.

But if folk use multiple rolls or free entry to play a character with all maxed stats in single player then it's no skin off my nose. And the fact that someone might skew their game in that way doesn't seem to be a reason not to let others who might like to determine their stats by, eg, physical dice rolls, enter their stats manually if there's demand for that.
Posted By: Blackheifer Re: Attributes in character creation - 25/01/23 02:13 PM
Originally Posted by Seraphael
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
Originally Posted by dwig
Obsessive rolling provides a nice touchstone to the original, so I think it should be an option for nostalgia, if nothing else.

I know you are kidding, but in case you are not - I would say that Nostalgia is much like Sentimentality in that it is the domain of sociopaths and not a good reason to do anything.

If we view existence karmically, as a series of attachments to be shed, then Nostalgia would be at the top of the list of negative attachments.

You got it completely wrong. *Not* being able to feel sentimentality is a hallmark of sociopathy, not the inverse. Take sentimentality away from the game and you're pretty much only left with the obvious financial incentive. A truly bad reason to make a sequel as loads of people very much expect sentimentality in some significant ways in a game that daringly attempts to build on the great legacy of a 25 year old game.

As for your idea of hard-locking people out of re-rolling in the single-player game, it is akin to grieving. The dice rolling graphics already in the game can be used to impose a soft-lock in practice. Simply make the player roll for each individual stat at a time and time would be a barrier in itself. But it would be much more entertaining, capture a bit of the spirit of D&D and a bit of sentimentality of the original series, while not being as frustrating as the re-roll mechanic of the old games which invariably led the players to accidentally clicking past really good rolls as they were generated instantaneously and unlimited.

The only issue I see with rolling stats in a single-player, would be unbalancing your game so much combat becomes trivial and boring. Then again, you can do the same in any game with a difficulty setting - so another way doesn't really account for much.


I don't think you know how to read.

I don't care what anyone does in single player. Not my idea. Don't care. never suggested it. You can paint your arse blue and call it Matilda for all I care what you do in single player.

Sentimentality is the result of personal attachment and fear, and is self-centered. Compassion is concern for the suffering of another with an inclination to provide support and comfort. For the un-educated or inexperienced - Sentimentality is often confused for compassion.
Posted By: 1varangian Re: Attributes in character creation - 25/01/23 02:45 PM
Originally Posted by Niara
I find it amusing that you suggest the complaint of "everyone will have the same stats", and in the exact same post, completely seriously and unironically, say that "Point buy makes the most sense" - Point buy, which is the number one root source of characters always having the same stats.

You're free to use pb if you like that. It's boring, restrictive and uninteresting, but by all means use it if you want to. Fortunately, it's already been confirmed that we'll be able to roll, and that there will be that and other ways to generate the actual full spread of ability score possibilities in some way - something which point buy does not, just as a point of order, allow you to do.

Solasta's system is pretty neat, in that it lets you use point buy, but it also lets you roll and does the generation quickly and smoothly, and as well as that, lets you manually input your scores - if you prefer to roll physical dice, or if you're recreating an actual tabletop character. Choice is good.

It should be a given that in multiplayer, the host would be able to set what method the table as a whole, together, uses for generating ability scores; it would be very silly if they didn't.
Claiming that point buy is the reason for identical stats is what's ridiculous here. You have all the freedom in the world to make any kind of character you envision, just within reasonable limits and a guarantee your character won't be weak.

As for the "if you don't like it, don't use it" argument - I hate Solasta's system. It's not even a system. They just tossed every method in and said "you figure it out, we can't". Choice is not always good. Might as well have to choose whether my Longsword does d6, d8 or 3d4 damage. Sure, if it's single player I don't care what other people do in their games. But personally, I don't have enough self control to not reroll if the first roll sucks, and I don't like playing with weak stats. Rolling 30 times is similar to free ability score assignment and feels like cheating. I would actually prefer point buy as the only option. We could also have a higher point pool, and then you can choose not to use all the points if you don't like every character having the same amount.

And because of multiplayer, balance is important. I don't want to negotiate before playing whether we will all have 18/18/18/18/18/18 stats or something else. I'm assuming the host can select the ability score generation method. Unlike single player, rolling could actually be controlled for multiplayer if everyone rolls their characters together.
Posted By: The Red Queen Re: Attributes in character creation - 25/01/23 03:02 PM
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
Originally Posted by Seraphael
You got it completely wrong. *Not* being able to feel sentimentality is a hallmark of sociopathy, not the inverse. Take sentimentality away from the game and you're pretty much only left with the obvious financial incentive.

I don't think you know how to read.

Sentimentality is the result of personal attachment and fear, and is self-centered. Compassion is concern for the suffering of another with an inclination to provide support and comfort. For the un-educated or inexperienced - Sentimentality is often confused for compassion.

Hmm, I may well be “uneducated” insofar as it sounds as though you might be referring to a specific theory of what sentimentality is that I don’t recognise. But the claim that sentimentality is the result of fear seems either substantive and not entirely supported by the use of the term in natural language, or else is simply defining sentimentality in a specific way that makes the claim trivially true. There might be a useful conceptual framework behind what you say that can help us consider the distinction between sentiment, nostalgia, compassion, etc but probably not while being quite so dismissive of others’ comprehension skills or knowledge!

Not that you weren’t a little provoked by Seraphael saying you got it “completely wrong”, and I do agree that sentimentality is not the same as passion or just emotion, which sounds more like what they were thinking of.
Posted By: Blackheifer Re: Attributes in character creation - 25/01/23 03:20 PM
Originally Posted by The_Red_Queen
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
Originally Posted by Seraphael
You got it completely wrong. *Not* being able to feel sentimentality is a hallmark of sociopathy, not the inverse. Take sentimentality away from the game and you're pretty much only left with the obvious financial incentive.

I don't think you know how to read.

Sentimentality is the result of personal attachment and fear, and is self-centered. Compassion is concern for the suffering of another with an inclination to provide support and comfort. For the un-educated or inexperienced - Sentimentality is often confused for compassion.

Hmm, I may well be “uneducated” in whatever specific theory it sounds as though you’re citing there, but it certainly seems to involve a substantive claim about sentimentality that’s not entirely supported by the use of the term in natural language, or else is simply defining sentimentality in a specific way that makes the claim trivially true. There might be a useful conceptual framework there in light of which to consider the distinction between sentiment, nostalgia, compassion, etc but probably not while being quite so dismissive of others’ comprehension skills!

Not that you weren’t a little provoked by Seraphael saying you got it “completely wrong”, and I do agree that sentimentality is not the same as passion or just emotion, which sounds more like what they were thinking of.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/lifelines/201010/sense-and-sentimentality

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/...imentality-the-criminal-basis-more-crime

https://www.jstor.org/stable/2873301


There is a lot more in The American Journals of Psychology but muggles don't have access to that unless you are currently a student and your University covers the subscription or you just like to have a Lexus/Nexus sub. Either way the concept of sentimentality being bad isn't new, and is considered fairly foundational. I.e. it's basic level knowledge. Psych 101 shit. In yea olden days it was very much looked down on to behave that way.

I love how you edited the quote to avoid what I was actually reacting to. *golf clap*
Posted By: The Red Queen Re: Attributes in character creation - 25/01/23 03:32 PM
Originally Posted by 1varangian
But personally, I don't have enough self control to not reroll if the first roll sucks, and I don't like playing with weak stats. Rolling 30 times is similar to free ability score assignment and feels like cheating. I would actually prefer point buy as the only option.

I guess the difficulty here is that you can’t get what you want while others’ equally valid preferences are also met. Like you, I prefer point buy. But I can understand others who want the wilder variation, randomness and challenge that comes with rolling. Or who want to roll with physical dice then enter the results. Or who, as Niara said, want to replicate a table-top character.

It feels as though compromise is fair here, and while I know I’ll also be tempted to abuse any flexibility offered, feel that it’s more reasonable for me to try to impose self-discipline than to prevent others creating (legal) characters.
Posted By: The Red Queen Re: Attributes in character creation - 25/01/23 03:58 PM
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/lifelines/201010/sense-and-sentimentality

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/...imentality-the-criminal-basis-more-crime

https://www.jstor.org/stable/2873301


There is a lot more in The American Journals of Psychology but muggles don't have access to that unless you are currently a student and your University covers the subscription or you just like to have a Lexus/Nexus sub. Either way the concept of sentimentality being bad isn't new, and is considered fairly foundational. I.e. it's basic level knowledge. Psych 101 shit. In yea olden days it was very much looked down on to behave that way.

I love how you edited the quote to avoid what I was actually reacting to. *golf clap*

Yeah, I thought it might be something like that. It’s of course fine for psychology, or any other discipline, to use terms in ways that are similar to but not quite the same as everyday language, and I’d agree the jargon thus established can give us useful ways to think about their subject matter. But however “basic level” that knowledge is within that academic context, it doesn’t necessarily translate to discussion elsewhere. And yes, I am well aware that sentimentality being considered bad is not new.

My apologies, though, that you felt I misrepresented your position by poor editing. I’m embarrassed to admit that I think I just clipped the parts of what you and Seraphael said that put my back up. I will seek to establish zen-like calm and not get annoyed by what I’ve interpreted as unnecessarily snippy and patronising posts on the forum. It is, after all, counterproductive and also hypocritical of me to contribute yet more of them.

So shutting up now, and my apologies to you and all other readers for fanning the flames.
Posted By: Warlocke Re: Attributes in character creation - 25/01/23 04:18 PM
*heavy sigh*

Sometimes people get things wrong. That’s fine. It’s human. Correcting them with grace and civility is the mark of compassion. Publicly beating somebody over the head with their errors or ignorance is a display of self-indulgence. Intelligence without tact or humility ain’t worth much.

Anyway, I hope that Larian does indeed include both forms of stat generation. Personally I’ll mostly use point-buy, as I think it leads to more interesting character build decisions, but I’ll likely roll one Demi-god character at some point for the novelty of it. Probably something that requires a completely discordant and convoluted attribute allocation, like a sorcerer / monk.
Posted By: Silver/ Re: Attributes in character creation - 25/01/23 05:17 PM
Rolling for stats to demigod degrees is just another variant of a story mode. We already have story mode type adjustments.

If some people want a barbarian with 5 int and 18 strenght to start with? Well, why not. Rolling for characters with more pronounced weaknesses and strenghts is fine by me.

What I'm upset about? No option to leave some of our player characters in camp. This actually affects everyone and is currently incredibly annoying.
Posted By: Wormerine Re: Attributes in character creation - 25/01/23 05:55 PM
Originally Posted by 1varangian
As for the "if you don't like it, don't use it" argument - I hate Solasta's system. It's not even a system. They just tossed every method in and said "you figure it out, we can't".
Eh, Solasta is clearly a niche product aimed at D&D aficionados, so I think it’s fine. If you want balanced you go point buy, if you want to build OP character and than complain that the game is too easy, you go for rolls.
Posted By: The Red Queen Re: Attributes in character creation - 25/01/23 06:06 PM
Originally Posted by Wormerine
Eh, Solasta is clearly a niche product aimed at D&D aficionados, so I think it’s fine. If you want balanced you go point buy, if you want to build OP character and than complain that the game is too easy, you go for rolls.

After dithering for ages and playing around with the different options, I ended up going with standard array for my only Solasta party (so far). It somehow felt right for that game, though I don’t think I could give a good explanation why. Something to do with wanting to treat my party members equally, as I was playing the party as a whole rather than an individual character, I think. It’s not an option I’d pick for a BG3 main character, but I maybe would if we get to create custom companions/mercenaries. And if I play enough to tire of the pre-built companions.
Posted By: Blackheifer Re: Attributes in character creation - 25/01/23 08:20 PM
Originally Posted by Warlocke
*heavy sigh*

Sometimes people get things wrong. That’s fine. It’s human. Correcting them with grace and civility is the mark of compassion. Publicly beating somebody over the head with their errors or ignorance is a display of self-indulgence. Intelligence without tact or humility ain’t worth much.

Anyway, I hope that Larian does indeed include both forms of stat generation. Personally I’ll mostly use point-buy, as I think it leads to more interesting character build decisions, but I’ll likely roll one Demi-god character at some point for the novelty of it. Probably something that requires a completely discordant and convoluted attribute allocation, like a sorcerer / monk.

It's done. I would invite you to not to fan the flames further. I got irritated about being accused of wanting to dictate what people do in single player games - which I had repeatedly said I don't care about. Like, literally said it 3-4 times. It's ridiculous. I usually filter stuff like that out but it seemed a particularly egregious example. It's fine, it's my bad, I have blocked Seraphin - which is what I should have done originally.

But the sentimentality thing is serious business. People who can't recognize it are opening themselves up to being victimized.

That does segue into a more important aspect of this topic - that is how often Nostalgia is used as a reason for arguing for design changes for BG3. There was a whole brigade of people saying this wasn't a real Baldur's gate game because it didn't confirm to some trivial design aspects of the original game.

The infamous "Nashkel Mines guy" and others..and the infinite rolling thing is one of those old systems or aspects which people are nostalgic about but doesn't have a lot of merit to it - other than maybe giving some people the thrill of gambling without the risk of loss.

Maybe we need to more intelligently and honestly examine what those systems mean.
Posted By: Warlocke Re: Attributes in character creation - 25/01/23 08:39 PM
I’m all for re-examining design decisions. A lot of people want the map to be less crowded, but in BG1 that meant a lot of not terribly engaging walking over empty space, so I’m okay with Larian’s handling of the map. The four character party limit also works better in 5E I think, as individual characters have more to do in their action economy than 2E.

I think some harmless call backs are fine though. BG3 certainly doesn’t need a set of undergarments made of metal, but I think it would be fitting if it did.

That said, while I do get irrationally nostalgic about the endless rerolling on the Infinity Engine games, I do hope and think Larian can do something a bit better. Most people are rerolling to get really good attributes, so rolling 4 and dropping 1 as you suggest might be a better way to go to just diminish the time spent clicking.
Posted By: Accessdenied Re: Attributes in character creation - 25/01/23 10:59 PM
Good lord... what have I done!?

*Makes a mental note* - Never ask about point attritubes again!
Posted By: Silver/ Re: Attributes in character creation - 25/01/23 11:28 PM
Originally Posted by Accessdenied
Good lord... what have I done!?

*Makes a mental note* - Never ask about point attritubes again!
The legendary disk horse has blessed ye!
Posted By: Umbra Re: Attributes in character creation - 25/01/23 11:40 PM
You weren't a serious BG player unless you'd spent at least more than an hour re-rolling your stats! The exquisite and hollowing horror of clicking past a better score than you had saved... it was stuff of nightmares. It worked, because all rolls were bad, no matter what you got you needed more, BG char creation was the drug!

BG stat rolling plus BG3 soundtrack would mean happiness for hours before even flopping out the pod.
Posted By: dwig Re: Attributes in character creation - 26/01/23 01:45 AM
Originally Posted by Umbra
You weren't a serious BG player unless you'd spent at least more than an hour re-rolling your stats! The exquisite and hollowing horror of clicking past a better score than you had saved... it was stuff of nightmares. It worked, because all rolls were bad, no matter what you got you needed more, BG char creation was the drug!

BG stat rolling plus BG3 soundtrack would mean happiness for hours before even flopping out the pod.

To be fair, this was a side affect of 2nd editions non-linear stat progression. The difference between a 15 and an 18 was as large (larger) than the difference between 10 and 18 in 5e, and for the most part you got nothing for a stat lower than 15. Rolling just once meant that you were going to play a 15 minute peasant walking simulator, followed by a quick peasant death simulator.

In any case, I absolutely do intend to roll for stats in BG3 when its possible. And if they limit that I'll install a mod that removes the limit. 5e balance means you don't really NEED the extra stats from rolling to play the game, but it also means that the extra stats don't make you that much more powerful in the long run (just an easier level 1-3).
Posted By: Accessdenied Re: Attributes in character creation - 26/01/23 02:17 AM
Originally Posted by Umbra
You weren't a serious BG player unless you'd spent at least more than an hour re-rolling your stats! The exquisite and hollowing horror of clicking past a better score than you had saved... it was stuff of nightmares. It worked, because all rolls were bad, no matter what you got you needed more, BG char creation was the drug!

BG stat rolling plus BG3 soundtrack would mean happiness for hours before even flopping out the pod.

Do you know how many times I blew past at 90+ roll from 100's of clicks on my rerolls?! :P
Posted By: Silver/ Re: Attributes in character creation - 26/01/23 02:18 AM
It's largely identical to playing with weighted dice for increased damage output and hit chance, which it seems like you can. Unlike the dice, you can't turn the demigod stats off, though
Posted By: avahZ Darkwood Re: Attributes in character creation - 26/01/23 02:39 AM
The reason I want stat rolling is because I also want to use feats. I have a hard time mentally playing a character class that has maxed out a main stat at 15. I get that you can ASI but feats are what I consider sets a character apart from others. With the current system almost all your fighters, etc. will feel the same. All dump stats will be pretty much cookie cutter. This makes multi classing less attractive and let’s not even think about how this effects the Eldritch knight int spell use. Magic Missile for everyone lol.

Look at the debate about Wyll’s stats spread. As it is, an ASI boost for him is pretty much useless so the consensus seems to be to give him moderately armored. The good thing here is that he also gets to boost his Dex. I also suspect Larian set his stats like this for when his contract is removed. He shouldn’t gain warlock levels anymore and will need to multiclass. His stats give you a few good options.

Now if there was a system that allowed ASI boost and a feat every so many levels, I would be more than happy with the way stats are currently allocated. Or like the Wyll example above, choose a feats and get a single stat boost in a related stat (ie Magic Initiate: Bard AND +1 to CHR) would be an awesome option.

I plan on making a Barbarian with Magic Initiate: Bard and learning drums from Alfria(sp?) to make my “Skald” player; however, I am honestly torn between the above or take a single level of bard and take an ASI feat). I will have to dump int and wis to get CHR at a reasonable 14(has to be 13+). As it is, a single level of bard is winning out.

I am looking forward to playing a foul mouth beserker(Skald) with his lovely mullet and drum! 🥁 😅

I do understand this is the way 5e works and IIRC this is going to be changed in the upcoming edition.
Posted By: Sozz Re: Attributes in character creation - 26/01/23 05:03 AM
Have Larian stated whether or not you'll be able to roll the origin characters stats?

I like the idea of rolling 4 dice and dropping the low one, they could also hold you to that roll to discourage manic stat scumming. Or Possibly you could choose the number of dice you want to roll up your character with, and whether you want to drop the low roll. Basically letting you choose from a number of common ways stats have been determined throughout the game. Has any cRPG done that before?
Posted By: fylimar Re: Attributes in character creation - 26/01/23 06:46 AM
I'm all for both options, rolling and point buy. More options are always better. I probably will use both options, depending on what kind of character I like to make.
I don't get the argument of 'I have no self control, so rolling shouldn't been in.' ( pataphrasing). - this is a) a personal problem, that shouldn't affect the majority of players and b) it's frankly not an argument, because you can do in your singleplayer game, what you like.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Attributes in character creation - 26/01/23 07:59 AM
And just for my curiosity ...
How would you people feel about infinite point buy ... or just seting your scores however you like with no restrictions at all (except prehaps min is 3 and max is 18 ... or 20)?

I mean there will certainly be mod for that if Larian refuse to include it ...
But i just dont see why would they ... after all its basically the same as rerolling over and over (and there is no way they can restrict us from doing that laugh ) ... it only saves time ...
Posted By: LostSoul Re: Attributes in character creation - 26/01/23 08:42 AM
Mods allow you to set your stats to whatever you want now .
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Attributes in character creation - 26/01/23 10:32 AM
Thats not really even close to what i asked, but okey. :-/
Posted By: Kimuriel Re: Attributes in character creation - 26/01/23 11:50 AM
Having more options is better than none. Personally I like rolling stats not for the nostalgia of it, but it makes it feel like a table top haha. As for rolling stats making the game too easy, it really depends on if you play with premade characters or a full custom party. Overall, I think they should probably lock the stats of the origin characters, unless you play them. If I recall correctly, in DOS II you could adjust all appearance and stat things the first time they joined you. Hope they keep this the way as is now, shadowheart etc have set attributes and so on. full custom party is nice and all smile But I do hope we get to save characters as well, akin to Solasta at some point. Back to topic, hope they add all 3 attribute systems.
Posted By: The Red Queen Re: Attributes in character creation - 26/01/23 11:52 AM
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
And just for my curiosity ...
How would you people feel about infinite point buy ... or just seting your scores however you like with no restrictions at all (except prehaps min is 3 and max is 18 ... or 20)?

I’m fine with this, as long as it’s a separate specific option for stat setting, clearly marked off from other options such as (normal) point buy, standard array and dice roll, any of which I’d prefer to use for my character creation. I personally wouldn’t want to have to use/calculate these offline, but because an option like this would let others use whatever method they prefer to calculate stats outside the game and then enter them, I think it makes a lot of sense to add along with a few standard attribute generation methods.
Posted By: 1varangian Re: Attributes in character creation - 26/01/23 12:39 PM
Originally Posted by avahZ Darkwood
The reason I want stat rolling is because I also want to use feats.
Good point. I also want to pick feats but feel forced to max main stat asap on every PC, because of how important it is. I hope next edition will separate ASI's and feats again.

Another good point is making sub-optimal builds more on-par. Like an Elven Fighter can roll 18 Strength rather than start with 14-15 which heavily railroads all elves into finesse builds.
Posted By: dwig Re: Attributes in character creation - 26/01/23 04:38 PM
Originally Posted by 1varangian
Originally Posted by avahZ Darkwood
The reason I want stat rolling is because I also want to use feats.
Good point. I also want to pick feats but feel forced to max main stat asap on every PC, because of how important it is. I hope next edition will separate ASI's and feats again.

Another good point is making sub-optimal builds more on-par. Like an Elven Fighter can roll 18 Strength rather than start with 14-15 which heavily railroads all elves into finesse builds.

Yes! Rolling also makes MAD classes like monk and non-hexblade blade pact warlock reasonable to play. Monk for instance requires four ASI to get dexterity and wisdom to 20 if you don't roll. You could decide not to use ASI for stats, but that is usually not optimal.
Posted By: pachanj Re: Attributes in character creation - 27/01/23 06:35 AM
NGL, I've spent more hours clicking REROLL in BG/BG2 than I have playing BG3, and that might not change even after I've played through the new one.

The old BG character creation process is so satisfying - the only functionality it lacked was the ability to jump back and forth between creation tabs.
Posted By: Blackheifer Re: Attributes in character creation - 27/01/23 07:06 AM
Originally Posted by pachanj
NGL, I've spent more hours clicking REROLL in BG/BG2 than I have playing BG3, and that might not change even after I've played through the new one.

The old BG character creation process is so satisfying - the only functionality it lacked was the ability to jump back and forth between creation tabs.

Hey, if some shallow rolling interaction is all it takes to part people from their money I say toss it in there for single player! There is a whole generation of los..I mean 'customers' that will sit there roiling ability scores and pay Larian $60 to do it. Then 20 years later they will talk about how BG3 let them roll ability scores into the wee hours and it was the best part of the game and how they are nostalgic for that sweet simple time before they had an AI that played games for them.

"There's a sucker born every minute"

-P.T. Barnum.
Posted By: Lotus Noctus Re: Attributes in character creation - 27/01/23 08:24 AM
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
Hey, if some shallow rolling interaction is all it takes to part people from their money I say toss it in there for single player! There is a whole generation of los..I mean 'customers' that will sit there roiling ability scores and pay Larian $60 to do it. Then 20 years later they will talk about how BG3 let them roll ability scores into the wee hours and it was the best part of the game and how they are nostalgic for that sweet simple time before they had an AI that played games for them.

"There's a sucker born every minute"

-P.T. Barnum.

Fun act: I would prefer it the other way around stat rolling and then never again dice rolling especially in dialogues, I would be happy to just be able to choose my answers. Hopefully there will be a kind of mod to choose answers (including fails or no fails) only without dice rolling. It would speed up dialogues so much. This endless dice rolling is exciting even for random consequences, but it is also very annoying and inhibits the flow of the game to me...
Posted By: The Red Queen Re: Attributes in character creation - 27/01/23 10:53 AM
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
Hey, if some shallow rolling interaction is all it takes to part people from their money I say toss it in there for single player! There is a whole generation of los..I mean 'customers' that will sit there roiling ability scores and pay Larian $60 to do it. Then 20 years later they will talk about how BG3 let them roll ability scores into the wee hours and it was the best part of the game and how they are nostalgic for that sweet simple time before they had an AI that played games for them.

"There's a sucker born every minute"

-P.T. Barnum.

Really?! Spending ages rethrowing virtual dice seems a pretty harmless way to get your jollies to me, and not at all deserving of repeated condescension and scorn.

I get that you see nostalgia for elements of the old BG games as symptomatic of a wider negative tendency that over-exaggerates their virtues for the purposes of criticising BG3, and that resists innovation in the name of fidelity to the original franchise. And I also agree that tendency exists, and can be a bit of a downer sometimes on these forums.

But not every instance of fondness for some aspect of the old games is tied to that broader attitude, and implying folk who have some innocent affection for the BG1/2 stat dice-rolling mechanic are losers doesn’t help make the atmosphere any more positive.
Posted By: Blackheifer Re: Attributes in character creation - 27/01/23 01:55 PM
Originally Posted by The_Red_Queen
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
Hey, if some shallow rolling interaction is all it takes to part people from their money I say toss it in there for single player! There is a whole generation of los..I mean 'customers' that will sit there roiling ability scores and pay Larian $60 to do it. Then 20 years later they will talk about how BG3 let them roll ability scores into the wee hours and it was the best part of the game and how they are nostalgic for that sweet simple time before they had an AI that played games for them.

"There's a sucker born every minute"

-P.T. Barnum.

Really?! Spending ages rethrowing virtual dice seems a pretty harmless way to get your jollies to me, and not at all deserving of repeated condescension and scorn.

I get that you see nostalgia for elements of the old BG games as symptomatic of a wider negative tendency that over-exaggerates their virtues for the purposes of criticising BG3, and that resists innovation in the name of fidelity to the original franchise. And I also agree that tendency exists, and can be a bit of a downer sometimes on these forums.

But not every instance of fondness for some aspect of the old games is tied to that broader attitude, and implying folk who have some innocent affection for the BG1/2 stat dice-rolling mechanic are losers doesn’t help make the atmosphere any more positive.

If English isn't your first language that was written tongue in cheek. I.e that means it was meant to be something of a joke. However, you are welcome to get offended anyway, but don't expect me to do anything about it. That's all you bro.
Posted By: iBowfish Re: Attributes in character creation - 27/01/23 01:57 PM
I rather enjoy the dice rolling in character creation, but then I also don't overdo it. What I actually greatly disliked in BG1 was the damn skill books dropping all over the place and magic items boosting your stats to 18, etc. Just like the ogre item...it's hard to keep myself from using it, and hard to not consider it when creating a character with point buy. I mean, why put points into something if you know you're going to be able too boost it 10 minutes from now?

I'm just starting to roll custom characters for Solasta, and I find the rolling very enjoyable. But again, I only rolled for about 2-3 minutes until I got one 18 and the rest were 12-16. That's WAY good enough as far as I'm concerned.

The real fun of rolling would be if you roll a character with something like 18, 18, 18, 9, 8, 6. Then you get to make the decision if you want to have a super physical fighter that's dumb as a stump, etc. Because those characters are FUN TO PLAY!

If players would actually put some role playing back into RPGs they might realize this.
Posted By: Warlocke Re: Attributes in character creation - 27/01/23 02:23 PM
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
Originally Posted by The_Red_Queen
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
Hey, if some shallow rolling interaction is all it takes to part people from their money I say toss it in there for single player! There is a whole generation of los..I mean 'customers' that will sit there roiling ability scores and pay Larian $60 to do it. Then 20 years later they will talk about how BG3 let them roll ability scores into the wee hours and it was the best part of the game and how they are nostalgic for that sweet simple time before they had an AI that played games for them.

"There's a sucker born every minute"

-P.T. Barnum.

Really?! Spending ages rethrowing virtual dice seems a pretty harmless way to get your jollies to me, and not at all deserving of repeated condescension and scorn.

I get that you see nostalgia for elements of the old BG games as symptomatic of a wider negative tendency that over-exaggerates their virtues for the purposes of criticising BG3, and that resists innovation in the name of fidelity to the original franchise. And I also agree that tendency exists, and can be a bit of a downer sometimes on these forums.

But not every instance of fondness for some aspect of the old games is tied to that broader attitude, and implying folk who have some innocent affection for the BG1/2 stat dice-rolling mechanic are losers doesn’t help make the atmosphere any more positive.

If English isn't your first language that was written tongue in cheek. I.e that means it was meant to be something of a joke. However, you are welcome to get offended anyway, but don't expect me to do anything about it. That's all you bro.

Calling people losers and suckers and then saying it was a joke and on them for taking offensive is so cowardly and disingenuous. Stand by your words or keep them to yourself. Better yet, if you’re committed to being immature, just keep them to yourself.
Posted By: 1varangian Re: Attributes in character creation - 27/01/23 02:28 PM
Originally Posted by iBowfish
and magic items boosting your stats to 18, etc. Just like the ogre item...it's hard to keep myself from using it, and hard to not consider it when creating a character with point buy. I mean, why put points into something if you know you're going to be able too boost it 10 minutes from now?
I don't think it's good item design when they override your ability scores and make them irrelevant. Sure, you can argue that you still have to make the choice to wear such an item and not something else, but I still think your ability scores should always matter. Only min-maxing comes out of items completely overriding ability scores, knowing you can always buff an 8 to 18. Headband of Intellect would be much better granting +2 to Int and would also benefit Wizards as such.
Posted By: geala Re: Attributes in character creation - 27/01/23 02:28 PM
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
And just for my curiosity ...
How would you people feel about infinite point buy ... or just seting your scores however you like with no restrictions at all (except prehaps min is 3 and max is 18 ... or 20)?

I mean there will certainly be mod for that if Larian refuse to include it ...
But i just dont see why would they ... after all its basically the same as rerolling over and over (and there is no way they can restrict us from doing that laugh ) ... it only saves time ...

I'm tempted to like it. I want a wood elf (actually wild elf) Barbarian, mainly because of the looks, and I'm so jealous that a human or half elf can start with 16 str (and 16 con) and take GWM without headaches or make it an 18 at lvl 4, and I cannot. grin
Posted By: Blackheifer Re: Attributes in character creation - 27/01/23 03:00 PM
Originally Posted by Warlocke
Really?! Spending ages rethrowing virtual dice seems a pretty harmless way to get your jollies to me, and not at all deserving of repeated condescension and scorn.

I get that you see nostalgia for elements of the old BG games as symptomatic of a wider negative tendency that over-exaggerates their virtues for the purposes of criticising BG3, and that resists innovation in the name of fidelity to the original franchise. And I also agree that tendency exists, and can be a bit of a downer sometimes on these forums.

But not every instance of fondness for some aspect of the old games is tied to that broader attitude, and implying folk who have some innocent affection for the BG1/2 stat dice-rolling mechanic are losers doesn’t help make the atmosphere any more positive.


I mean when something tilts into absurdity it seems kind of obvious it was meant as a joke. I literally talk about AI that plays all your games for you.

Which - true story - I actually suggested that to Blizzard back in 2008 or so, before even warlords of draemamine (joke) or even Diablo Immortal - I was like "Just have them pay $15 a month to get updates on their phone telling them they are winners and showing them all the cool gear they won - It's a total moneymaker!"

I mean once they were willing to buy pointless horse armor I knew what we were dealing with here.

I got a lot of heat for saying it at the time, but I mean look what has happened since!

I am firmly on Team - "people should just give their money to Larian"

Now granted was there some truth sprinkled in amongst the preceding tongue-in-cheek writing? Sure.

Look Warlocke, whatever you do in your spare time is up to you. I don't REALLY think you are a loser for spending that time re-rolling characters that you will never play for more than 10 minutes. Now, as for some of the other stuff you get up to....(KIDDING)

Anyway, I will try to be better about labeling.
Posted By: Gray Ghost Re: Attributes in character creation - 27/01/23 03:17 PM
Originally Posted by 1varangian
Originally Posted by iBowfish
and magic items boosting your stats to 18, etc. Just like the ogre item...it's hard to keep myself from using it, and hard to not consider it when creating a character with point buy. I mean, why put points into something if you know you're going to be able too boost it 10 minutes from now?
I don't think it's good item design when they override your ability scores and make them irrelevant. Sure, you can argue that you still have to make the choice to wear such an item and not something else, but I still think your ability scores should always matter. Only min-maxing comes out of items completely overriding ability scores, knowing you can always buff an 8 to 18. Headband of Intellect would be much better granting +2 to Int and would also benefit Wizards as such.

I've never really used this item for long since I don't tend to kill the ogres, but the one defence that might apply here is that with the item, you can't actually increase your intelligence beyond that, and it stops being useful once you go over 18. So you'll never get to hit a +5 ability modifier. Is that valid? Does it make sense?
Posted By: iBowfish Re: Attributes in character creation - 27/01/23 04:43 PM
Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
Originally Posted by 1varangian
Originally Posted by iBowfish
and magic items boosting your stats to 18, etc. Just like the ogre item...it's hard to keep myself from using it, and hard to not consider it when creating a character with point buy. I mean, why put points into something if you know you're going to be able too boost it 10 minutes from now?
I don't think it's good item design when they override your ability scores and make them irrelevant. Sure, you can argue that you still have to make the choice to wear such an item and not something else, but I still think your ability scores should always matter. Only min-maxing comes out of items completely overriding ability scores, knowing you can always buff an 8 to 18. Headband of Intellect would be much better granting +2 to Int and would also benefit Wizards as such.

I've never really used this item for long since I don't tend to kill the ogres, but the one defence that might apply here is that with the item, you can't actually increase your intelligence beyond that, and it stops being useful once you go over 18. So you'll never get to hit a +5 ability modifier. Is that valid? Does it make sense?

Sure, that makes total sense from what I think of as a current gamer perspective. But I'm also from old school AD&D times where, as I remember it at least, ability scores for PCs were 3-18. Having any 18 ability score was amazing beyond belief. Having an 18 INT meant you were literally among the most intelligent people on the entire planet. You would never meet someone smarter than you, ever. The only creatures that were more intelligent were basically gods in their own right.
So even the idea of increasing an ability beyond what was "humanly" possible was a huge stretch of the imagination, or one that would come at a dire cost, like permanently reducing STR or CON or DEX by numerous points.
"Expecting" from the get go to increase one or more ability scores to god-like levels seems ridiculous to me. But like I said, I don't have a current gamer perspective.

My ideal situation for an item like this is that once acquired, you find an inscription or an NPC has knowledge that if you decide to put this on...not only will you become vastly intelligent, but you will also feel the physical effects and become as weak as a child and as sickly as a leper, even for weeks after taking the item off.
Rather than, how do I best utilize all of the god-like ability hacks to maximize my party's stats? Boring....

This may have strayed a bit off-topic, but to bring it full circle, rolling ability scores does in fact make the game more fun and immersive in my opinion. Being stuck with a stupid fighter that fails all of his INT saving throws but can just crush any non-magic foes is flavorful. I personally don't see how it's fun to play a character that's smarter, wiser, stronger, faster, etc. than any person you've ever met in your life. It's the entitlement era for sure.
Posted By: pachanj Re: Attributes in character creation - 27/01/23 07:22 PM
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
Originally Posted by pachanj
NGL, I've spent more hours clicking REROLL in BG/BG2 than I have playing BG3, and that might not change even after I've played through the new one.

The old BG character creation process is so satisfying - the only functionality it lacked was the ability to jump back and forth between creation tabs.

Hey, if some shallow rolling interaction is all it takes to part people from their money I say toss it in there for single player! There is a whole generation of los..I mean 'customers' that will sit there roiling ability scores and pay Larian $60 to do it. Then 20 years later they will talk about how BG3 let them roll ability scores into the wee hours and it was the best part of the game and how they are nostalgic for that sweet simple time before they had an AI that played games for them.

"There's a sucker born every minute"

-P.T. Barnum.
TF is actually wrong with people like you?

funnily enough, your posts have been reported so much I can't report them anymore because "the mods are already notified".

at least I know I'm not the only one put off by you.
Posted By: The Red Queen Re: Attributes in character creation - 27/01/23 09:11 PM
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
Originally Posted by The_Red_Queen
…
If English isn't your first language that was written tongue in cheek. I.e that means it was meant to be something of a joke. However, you are welcome to get offended anyway, but don't expect me to do anything about it. That's all you bro.

Ooh, burn! Yes English is indeed my first language. And I got that you thought you were being funny, but … eek.

Anyway, having totally failed in another attempt to appeal for mutual respect in this thread I am now going to bow out of it completely. I’m clearly not helping.

I just feel bad for poor @Accessdenied, who started this thread in all innocence with a perfectly reasonable question only to see it turn into a totally unnecessary bun fight. Sorry, @Accessdenied!
Posted By: 1varangian Re: Attributes in character creation - 27/01/23 09:47 PM
Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
I've never really used this item for long since I don't tend to kill the ogres, but the one defence that might apply here is that with the item, you can't actually increase your intelligence beyond that, and it stops being useful once you go over 18. So you'll never get to hit a +5 ability modifier. Is that valid? Does it make sense?
It seems counter-intuitive to me that a "Headband of Intellect" will never be useful for an Intelligence class.

It's best for a min-maxed hybrid spellcaster like an Arcane Trickster or Eldritch Knight who can dump Int to 8, but will potentially greatly benefit from 17-18 Int. Encouraging min-maxing and dump statting doesn't seem like a good way to design items.
Posted By: Blackheifer Re: Attributes in character creation - 27/01/23 10:00 PM
Originally Posted by The_Red_Queen
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
Originally Posted by The_Red_Queen
…
If English isn't your first language that was written tongue in cheek. I.e that means it was meant to be something of a joke. However, you are welcome to get offended anyway, but don't expect me to do anything about it. That's all you bro.

Ooh, burn! Yes English is indeed my first language. And I got that you thought you were being funny, but … eek.

Anyway, having totally failed in another attempt to appeal for mutual respect in this thread I am now going to bow out of it completely. I’m clearly not helping.

I just feel bad for poor @Accessdenied, who started this thread in all innocence with a perfectly reasonable question only to see it turn into a totally unnecessary bun fight. Sorry, @Accessdenied!

Humor is subjective. But if you knew I was kidding...and you took it seriously...isn't that on you? You could have responded with a dry "Haha, go to hell" - I would have been cool with that.

As to your other point, Larian has already decided what they are going to do. Mods have already decided to do what they want to do. Everybody will get what they want. The discussion is pointless.
Posted By: Warlocke Re: Attributes in character creation - 27/01/23 10:39 PM
The problem with your “jokes” is that your only punch lines are “you’re dumb” and “I’m better than you.” Nobody wants to hear that. You aren’t funny. Learn to read a room.
Posted By: Zerubbabel Re: Attributes in character creation - 27/01/23 10:46 PM
Just to clarify... point buy and rolling for stats are going to both be available according to this thread? And if one wasn't, it seems like an easy fix. Cool. Not sure how this thread ended up where it is. Attributes are neat. Who wants to talk about attributes? I find that I default into min-maxing my character more often with point buy.
Posted By: Blackheifer Re: Attributes in character creation - 27/01/23 10:57 PM
Originally Posted by Warlocke
The problem with your “jokes” is that your only punch lines are “you’re dumb” and “I’m better than you.” Nobody wants to hear that. You aren’t funny. Learn to read a room.

You think I am better than you? Aww, that's sweet.

[video:youtube]
[/video]
Posted By: Gray Ghost Re: Attributes in character creation - 27/01/23 11:12 PM
Originally Posted by 1varangian
Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
I've never really used this item for long since I don't tend to kill the ogres, but the one defence that might apply here is that with the item, you can't actually increase your intelligence beyond that, and it stops being useful once you go over 18. So you'll never get to hit a +5 ability modifier. Is that valid? Does it make sense?
It seems counter-intuitive to me that a "Headband of Intellect" will never be useful for an Intelligence class.

It's best for a min-maxed hybrid spellcaster like an Arcane Trickster or Eldritch Knight who can dump Int to 8, but will potentially greatly benefit from 17-18 Int. Encouraging min-maxing and dump statting doesn't seem like a good way to design items.

Yeah, that makes sense. I figure it could be useful for certain wizards who for whatever reason haven't hit 18 by the time they reach it. It's also good for when players want to play characters who it doesn't make sense for them to have really high ability scores but still want to see high intelligence dialogue options. But this is really just me musing.
Posted By: dwig Re: Attributes in character creation - 27/01/23 11:27 PM
Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
Originally Posted by 1varangian
Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
I've never really used this item for long since I don't tend to kill the ogres, but the one defence that might apply here is that with the item, you can't actually increase your intelligence beyond that, and it stops being useful once you go over 18. So you'll never get to hit a +5 ability modifier. Is that valid? Does it make sense?
It seems counter-intuitive to me that a "Headband of Intellect" will never be useful for an Intelligence class.

It's best for a min-maxed hybrid spellcaster like an Arcane Trickster or Eldritch Knight who can dump Int to 8, but will potentially greatly benefit from 17-18 Int. Encouraging min-maxing and dump statting doesn't seem like a good way to design items.

Yeah, that makes sense. I figure it could be useful for certain wizards who for whatever reason haven't hit 18 by the time they reach it. It's also good for when players want to play characters who it doesn't make sense for them to have really high ability scores but still want to see high intelligence dialogue options. But this is really just me musing.

For perspective, the headband of intellect is an "uncommon" magic item in the Dungeon Masters Handbook, which means that it is considered appropriate loot for lvl 1-4. A committed wizard will want a 20, so the headband isn't particularly useful beyond the early levels. I use it purely to boost INT skills in BG3, which is a fairly niche application. It can make eldritch knight or arcane trickster slightly more effective.

One big Caveat... in 5e the headband requires atunement to use, and you only get three of those. So once you get to higher levels almost everybody is going to want something better. The headband is a bit better in BG3, since the only opportunity cost is that you cannot put something else in the head slot.
Posted By: Umbra Re: Attributes in character creation - 27/01/23 11:28 PM
It is the warped headband, maybe it should give a minus to constitution because using it gives you a headache. You'd get a boost to intelligence based spellcasting at the cost of reduced concentration on those spells.

On the other hand, I usually dump Con, so just putting it on should cause my chars head to swell up and explode! Didn't see that coming did you, Tadpole!
Posted By: Silver/ Re: Attributes in character creation - 28/01/23 01:41 AM
Originally Posted by Umbra
It is the warped headband, maybe it should give a minus to constitution because using it gives you a headache. You'd get a boost to intelligence based spellcasting at the cost of reduced concentration on those spells.

On the other hand, I usually dump Con, so just putting it on should cause my chars head to swell up and explode! Didn't see that coming did you, Tadpole!
Maybe it's not giving a char the headache because the tadpole has it for us 😵‍💫
Posted By: Warlocke Re: Attributes in character creation - 28/01/23 02:56 AM
Originally Posted by Umbra
It is the warped headband, maybe it should give a minus to constitution because using it gives you a headache. You'd get a boost to intelligence based spellcasting at the cost of reduced concentration on those spells.

On the other hand, I usually dump Con, so just putting it on should cause my chars head to swell up and explode! Didn't see that coming did you, Tadpole!

Dump Con?! You are braver than I, crazier than I, or both. 😂

I can’t ever have anything less than 12 Con, and that’s a bare minimum. It’s just like a compulsive tick at this point.
Posted By: Terminator2020 Re: Attributes in character creation - 28/01/23 05:49 AM
The biggest reason I do not play really Alpha (have played before) not even interested to try level 5 (besides other games and limited free time) is that while I can now create a Paladin I know that I will not use the buypoint system when released. I am power gamer and proud of it not shamed at all. That does not mean I must do the ultimate build or min max perfect but enough so  hardest challenge levels are doable with exception not interested in any Iron man mode. Iron man means that you have only saves slot and if you die it save you are dead game over at least if all characters if any survive I guess rise dead might be possible.

As comparison I play Solasta on Cataclysm hardest challenge level and have rolled stats to Kingdom Come.

Well and I only laugh at notion to roll once attributes and keep the rolls unless you are happy with the first roll.


Now discussing what stats to dump even if rolled stats realistically there are some stats to dump. I would say classically INT is biggest dumb stat unless you are say Wizard when it is one of the most  important stats.
In DND 5.0 (not so earlier Dungeons Dragons rules example DND 3.5 and I guess Pathfinder) the INT stats does not affect how many skill points you get.

Charisma is a dump stat unless you need it example Sorcerer or Paladin. As for social interaction it is good if a party has at least one character with high charisma, but that does not need mean every character needs high charisma.

Wisdom is seldom needed high unless Cleric, but I would not recommend put a negative value on Wisdom modifier example less then 10 because you will suck on some saving rolls. Well exception perhaps if buypoint build then I would understand Wisdom 8.
Con as dump stat? No I think that is not smart at all. You could argue that with buypoint system you do not need high con but decent at least is good idea. If your roll and consider CON as dump stat that is really one of the worst tactics.
Posted By: Blackheifer Re: Attributes in character creation - 28/01/23 06:28 AM
Originally Posted by Terminator2020
The biggest reason I do not play really Alpha (have played before) not even interested to try level 5 (besides other games and limited free time) is that while I can now create a Paladin I know that I will not use the buypoint system when released. I am power gamer and proud of it not shamed at all. That does not mean I must do the ultimate build or min max perfect but enough so  hardest challenge levels are doable with exception not interested in any Iron man mode. Iron man means that you have only saves slot and if you die it save you are dead game over at least if all characters if any survive I guess rise dead might be possible.

As comparison I play Solasta on Cataclysm hardest challenge level and have rolled stats to Kingdom Come.

Well and I only laugh at notion to roll once attributes and keep the rolls unless you are happy with the first roll.


Now discussing what stats to dump even if rolled stats realistically there are some stats to dump. I would say classically INT is biggest dumb stat unless you are say Wizard when it is one of the most  important stats.
In DND 5.0 (not so earlier Dungeons Dragons rules example DND 3.5 and I guess Pathfinder) the INT stats does not affect how many skill points you get.

Charisma is a dump stat unless you need it example Sorcerer or Paladin. As for social interaction it is good if a party has at least one character with high charisma, but that does not need mean every character needs high charisma.

Wisdom is seldom needed high unless Cleric, but I would not recommend put a negative value on Wisdom modifier example less then 10 because you will suck on some saving rolls. Well exception perhaps if buypoint build then I would understand Wisdom 8.
Con as dump stat? No I think that is not smart at all. You could argue that with buypoint system you do not need high con but decent at least is good idea. If your roll and consider CON as dump stat that is really one of the worst tactics.



Ha! Brennan Lee Mulligan said it best - "All Adventures are Hot, Strong, and Dumb and that explains a lot of how players behave"

[video:youtube]
[/video]
Posted By: Terminator2020 Re: Attributes in character creation - 28/01/23 09:57 AM
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
Originally Posted by Terminator2020
The biggest reason I do not play really Alpha (have played before) not even interested to try level 5 (besides other games and limited free time) is that while I can now create a Paladin I know that I will not use the buypoint system when released. I am power gamer and proud of it not shamed at all. That does not mean I must do the ultimate build or min max perfect but enough so  hardest challenge levels are doable with exception not interested in any Iron man mode. Iron man means that you have only saves slot and if you die it save you are dead game over at least if all characters if any survive I guess rise dead might be possible.

As comparison I play Solasta on Cataclysm hardest challenge level and have rolled stats to Kingdom Come.

Well and I only laugh at notion to roll once attributes and keep the rolls unless you are happy with the first roll.


Now discussing what stats to dump even if rolled stats realistically there are some stats to dump. I would say classically INT is biggest dumb stat unless you are say Wizard when it is one of the most  important stats.
In DND 5.0 (not so earlier Dungeons Dragons rules example DND 3.5 and I guess Pathfinder) the INT stats does not affect how many skill points you get.

Charisma is a dump stat unless you need it example Sorcerer or Paladin. As for social interaction it is good if a party has at least one character with high charisma, but that does not need mean every character needs high charisma.

Wisdom is seldom needed high unless Cleric, but I would not recommend put a negative value on Wisdom modifier example less then 10 because you will suck on some saving rolls. Well exception perhaps if buypoint build then I would understand Wisdom 8.
Con as dump stat? No I think that is not smart at all. You could argue that with buypoint system you do not need high con but decent at least is good idea. If your roll and consider CON as dump stat that is really one of the worst tactics.



Ha! Brennan Lee Mulligan said it best - "All Adventures are Hot, Strong, and Dumb and that explains a lot of how players behave"

[video:youtube]
[/video]
Hahaa literally partly about me. If you want to know about my stats STR, CHA and INT in real life read spoiler my honest opinion:

STR currently mine would rank it 16.
However at best when was most fit and more young STR 18 includes 120KG that is like 264.555 pound lift several times on bench press weight. Well and more then 60 pushups in one minute could do and have been strong since teenager already.

CHA this is biggest hardest for me to rank... but the only time I have felt like superstar on Tinder was when I was in Asia this was fairly recently though in year 2020. I would rank my CHA to roughly 14... CHA is not only looks and also how people like you etc.

INT: I would rank my INT to 15 and have never been higher not in younger years or later years.
I am an engineer and I have won even a very small local chess tournament only once and that was on a summer camp. I would not say I am super smart or anything like that but not saying I am dumb. My studies include deep mathematics, physics and IT etc. and if you are dumb you will not graduate as an engineer in my field.
Posted By: arion Re: Attributes in character creation - 30/01/23 09:23 AM
Originally Posted by Terminator2020
Now discussing what stats to dump even if rolled stats realistically there are some stats to dump. I would say classically INT is biggest dumb stat unless you are say Wizard when it is one of the most  important stats.
In DND 5.0 (not so earlier Dungeons Dragons rules example DND 3.5 and I guess Pathfinder) the INT stats does not affect how many skill points you get.
There one big issue. The plot is strongly influenced by illithids whose attacks target INT saves, also the arcana skill checks will be pretty common.
Posted By: dwig Re: Attributes in character creation - 30/01/23 07:57 PM
Originally Posted by arion
Originally Posted by Terminator2020
Now discussing what stats to dump even if rolled stats realistically there are some stats to dump. I would say classically INT is biggest dumb stat unless you are say Wizard when it is one of the most  important stats.
In DND 5.0 (not so earlier Dungeons Dragons rules example DND 3.5 and I guess Pathfinder) the INT stats does not affect how many skill points you get.
There one big issue. The plot is strongly influenced by illithids whose attacks target INT saves, also the arcana skill checks will be pretty common.

Maybe the intellect circlet will be OP after all.
Posted By: 1varangian Re: Attributes in character creation - 31/01/23 11:22 AM
Originally Posted by dwig
For perspective, the headband of intellect is an "uncommon" magic item in the Dungeon Masters Handbook, which means that it is considered appropriate loot for lvl 1-4. A committed wizard will want a 20, so the headband isn't particularly useful beyond the early levels. I use it purely to boost INT skills in BG3, which is a fairly niche application. It can make eldritch knight or arcane trickster slightly more effective.

One big Caveat... in 5e the headband requires atunement to use, and you only get three of those. So once you get to higher levels almost everybody is going to want something better. The headband is a bit better in BG3, since the only opportunity cost is that you cannot put something else in the head slot.
In PnP you would never build a character concept and min-max 8 Int around a particular item because there are no guarantees you will find such an item. Or be able to keep it if you do.

In a video game you can just go get it, and it's unlikely you can ever lose it. It changes the game completely and suddenly the "8 Int build" is great because you get to put so many ability points elsewhere. Stupid, but powerful.
Posted By: mrfuji3 Re: Attributes in character creation - 31/01/23 03:28 PM
Originally Posted by 1varangian
In PnP you would never build a character concept and min-max 8 Int around a particular item because there are no guarantees you will find such an item. Or be able to keep it if you do.

In a video game you can just go get it, and it's unlikely you can ever lose it. It changes the game completely and suddenly the "8 Int build" is great because you get to put so many ability points elsewhere. Stupid, but powerful.
Imo this is one place where replayability should shine in BG3. Playing again with foreknowledge of the game, allowing you to create cool builds designed around items/quests/powers you'll get.

My first playthrough, I make a...Paladin (or whatever), optimizing the Paladin at character creation, not assuming I'll find any specific item.
My second playthrough, I know that the Headband of Intellect exists, so I make a Rogue (Arcane Trickster) or Fighter (Eldritch Knight) and dump INT, allowing me to raise other ability scores that would never otherwise do.

It's better than some other methods (e.g., killing off all but 3 companions) because it improves replayability without harming the first playthrough experience. Players aren't required to do multiple playthroughs to get the full experience. Like sure, if you made an Arcane Trickster or Eldritch Knight with 14 Int your 1st playthrough, you'll be a bit sad when you find the Headband of Intellect. But that's fairly insignificant. It's more similar to knowing where an ambush will take place in your 2nd playthrough, allowing you to ambush the ambushers.
Posted By: iBowfish Re: Attributes in character creation - 31/01/23 03:43 PM
Originally Posted by mrfuji3
Originally Posted by 1varangian
In PnP you would never build a character concept and min-max 8 Int around a particular item because there are no guarantees you will find such an item. Or be able to keep it if you do.

In a video game you can just go get it, and it's unlikely you can ever lose it. It changes the game completely and suddenly the "8 Int build" is great because you get to put so many ability points elsewhere. Stupid, but powerful.
Imo this is one place where replayability should shine in BG3. Playing again with foreknowledge of the game, allowing you to create cool builds designed around items/quests/powers you'll get.

My first playthrough, I make a...Paladin (or whatever), optimizing the Paladin at character creation, not assuming I'll find any specific item.
My second playthrough, I know that the Headband of Intellect exists, so I make a Rogue (Arcane Trickster) or Fighter (Eldritch Knight) and dump INT, allowing me to raise other ability scores that would never otherwise do.

It's better than some other methods (e.g., killing off all but 3 companions) because it improves replayability without harming the first playthrough experience. Players aren't required to do multiple playthroughs to get the full experience. Like sure, if you made an Arcane Trickster or Eldritch Knight with 14 Int your 1st playthrough, you'll be a bit sad when you find the Headband of Intellect. But that's fairly insignificant. It's more similar to knowing where an ambush will take place in your 2nd playthrough, allowing you to ambush the ambushers.

I see the point, but just don't personally like the idea of doing that. Maybe because we played through EA so many times, to try to bring back some of the early excitement, we started really trying to NOT ambush the ambushers, even though we as players knew they were there, our characters just walk right on it...
Also tried actual role playing even more than normal. Talking to each other in character (sort of) doing things that are certainly not in our best interest, but character wise more accurate. - Stopped giving poor little Astarion a pass after he tries his shenanigans in camp, even though we needed a rogue in the party. Stole all his clothes and sent him packing. - Stopped putting up with Froggy barking orders and insults after saving her. Dead Ribbit.
But I digress ;-)
It's tough to not use player knowledge to make the game easier, but a whole helluva lot more rewarding, for me at least.
Posted By: 1varangian Re: Attributes in character creation - 31/01/23 08:06 PM
Originally Posted by mrfuji3
My second playthrough, I know that the Headband of Intellect exists, so I make a Rogue (Arcane Trickster) or Fighter (Eldritch Knight) and dump INT, allowing me to raise other ability scores that would never otherwise do.
That's precisely the problem imo.

Player 1 plays a Githyanki Eldritch Knight and puts points into 16 Strength and Intelligence, taking advantage of the matching racial stat bonuses.

Player 2 plays a Dwarf Eldritch Knight, dumps Intelligence to 8, has 17 Str and 17 Con, and gets to sprinkle the remaining points from the Int dump into wherever. Then, with Headband of Int, also surpasses the Gith in Intelligence and spellcasting.

Or they both end up wearing a Headband of Intellect and it's a tie in spite of the Gith having a natural 16 Int. Except the Dwarf has much higher stats elsewhere.

It's like you're actually being punished by making a "good" build and not building around one particular magic item. The only somewhat redeeming factor could be that there will be much better helmets or headbands, and NO Super Headband of 20 Intelligence. Still, if I would make a more offensive EK spellcaster, I would still prefer a Headband that would +2 the Gith's Int so it would matter that I made them smart to begin with.
Posted By: Warlocke Re: Attributes in character creation - 31/01/23 08:48 PM
Originally Posted by 1varangian
Originally Posted by mrfuji3
My second playthrough, I know that the Headband of Intellect exists, so I make a Rogue (Arcane Trickster) or Fighter (Eldritch Knight) and dump INT, allowing me to raise other ability scores that would never otherwise do.
That's precisely the problem imo.

Player 1 plays a Githyanki Eldritch Knight and puts points into 16 Strength and Intelligence, taking advantage of the matching racial stat bonuses.

Player 2 plays a Dwarf Eldritch Knight, dumps Intelligence to 8, has 17 Str and 17 Con, and gets to sprinkle the remaining points from the Int dump into wherever. Then, with Headband of Int, also surpasses the Gith in Intelligence and spellcasting.

Or they both end up wearing a Headband of Intellect and it's a tie in spite of the Gith having a natural 16 Int. Except the Dwarf has much higher stats elsewhere.

It's like you're actually being punished by making a "good" build and not building around one particular magic item. The only somewhat redeeming factor could be that there will be much better helmets or headbands, and NO Super Headband of 20 Intelligence. Still, if I would make a more offensive EK spellcaster, I would still prefer a Headband that would +2 the Gith's Int so it would matter that I made them smart to begin with.

A +2 Int headband wouldn’t really account for the amount ogre boss being as articulate as he is, though.

Also, if you are playing an EK as a spellcaster instead of a Fighter with a bit of magical utility and protection then you are really missing the point of the class. 😂
Posted By: Sozz Re: Attributes in character creation - 31/01/23 09:00 PM
The headband is great early on, but there are too many more interesting options for it to be a long term slot. I did play a low INT wizard once to abuse it (before it was nerfed) and it was fun, but tying up a head slot isn't worth it to me.

Between class abilities and how malleable stats are in 5e, stat items are different from BG 1-2, you weren't playing correctly if you didn't build characters around the loot you got.
Posted By: mrfuji3 Re: Attributes in character creation - 31/01/23 09:08 PM
Originally Posted by 1varangian
Originally Posted by mrfuji3
My second playthrough, I know that the Headband of Intellect exists, so I make a Rogue (Arcane Trickster) or Fighter (Eldritch Knight) and dump INT, allowing me to raise other ability scores that would never otherwise do.
That's precisely the problem imo.

Player 1 plays a Githyanki Eldritch Knight and puts points into 16 Strength and Intelligence, taking advantage of the matching racial stat bonuses.

Player 2 plays a Dwarf Eldritch Knight, dumps Intelligence to 8, has 17 Str and 17 Con, and gets to sprinkle the remaining points from the Int dump into wherever. Then, with Headband of Int, also surpasses the Gith in Intelligence and spellcasting.

Or they both end up wearing a Headband of Intellect and it's a tie in spite of the Gith having a natural 16 Int. Except the Dwarf has much higher stats elsewhere.

It's like you're actually being punished by making a "good" build and not building around one particular magic item. The only somewhat redeeming factor could be that there will be much better helmets or headbands, and NO Super Headband of 20 Intelligence. Still, if I would make a more offensive EK spellcaster, I would still prefer a Headband that would +2 the Gith's Int so it would matter that I made them smart to begin with.
But player 2 would never make such a build on their 1st run (unless they look up game details or are otherwise informed). This scenario is only relevant in 2nd or later playthroughs, where both players are aware of the Headband's existence. Given that, Player 1 is actually *not* making a good build anymore...unless they are waiting for headgear that is better than the Headband.

Plus, part of the fun of D&D for me is crafting different builds, and foreknowledge of items in BG3 allows for a larger parameter space of feasible/powerful builds. I'm not seeing the problem if you can craft superior builds on subsequent playthroughs by using the knowledge you got from previous playthroughs - that's part of the charm of replaying games.
Posted By: Sozz Re: Attributes in character creation - 31/01/23 09:15 PM
Imagine if the party is captured and all their gear is confiscated then the wizard with 8 intelligence looks like an ass. Or like in Solasta, and the plot rivets a crown on them.
Posted By: 1varangian Re: Attributes in character creation - 31/01/23 10:00 PM
Originally Posted by Warlocke
A +2 Int headband wouldn’t really account for the amount ogre boss being as articulate as he is, though.
Lump is largely irrelevant in the bigger picture talking about game design. They could just turn him into an Ogre Mage or simply let him be an abnormally smart Ogre.

Quote
Also, if you are playing an EK as a spellcaster instead of a Fighter with a bit of magical utility and protection then you are really missing the point of the class. 😂
Nope. The optimal way of playing an EK is to ignore Int and focus on spells that aren't affected by it. They specifically designed EK to be specialized in Evocation and Abjuration spells. But since they designed it poorly, Evocation isn't as useful and requires a stat Abjuration does not. Intelligence modifier also affecting the duration of protection spells would have been better, but they clearly wanted a simple streamlined system and this poor balance is the result.
Posted By: Gray Ghost Re: Attributes in character creation - 31/01/23 10:00 PM
Originally Posted by Sozz
The headband is great early on, but there are too many more interesting options for it to be a long term slot. I did play a low INT wizard once to abuse it (before it was nerfed) and it was fun, but tying up a head slot isn't worth it to me.

Between class abilities and how malleable stats are in 5e, stat items are different from BG 1-2, you weren't playing correctly if you didn't build characters around the loot you got.

Just bringing this up quick, but what are some good helmets? So far the only one I've found that seems to be any good is that circlet of fire thing.
Posted By: 1varangian Re: Attributes in character creation - 31/01/23 10:14 PM
Originally Posted by mrfuji3
Originally Posted by 1varangian
Originally Posted by mrfuji3
My second playthrough, I know that the Headband of Intellect exists, so I make a Rogue (Arcane Trickster) or Fighter (Eldritch Knight) and dump INT, allowing me to raise other ability scores that would never otherwise do.
That's precisely the problem imo.

Player 1 plays a Githyanki Eldritch Knight and puts points into 16 Strength and Intelligence, taking advantage of the matching racial stat bonuses.

Player 2 plays a Dwarf Eldritch Knight, dumps Intelligence to 8, has 17 Str and 17 Con, and gets to sprinkle the remaining points from the Int dump into wherever. Then, with Headband of Int, also surpasses the Gith in Intelligence and spellcasting.

Or they both end up wearing a Headband of Intellect and it's a tie in spite of the Gith having a natural 16 Int. Except the Dwarf has much higher stats elsewhere.

It's like you're actually being punished by making a "good" build and not building around one particular magic item. The only somewhat redeeming factor could be that there will be much better helmets or headbands, and NO Super Headband of 20 Intelligence. Still, if I would make a more offensive EK spellcaster, I would still prefer a Headband that would +2 the Gith's Int so it would matter that I made them smart to begin with.
But player 2 would never make such a build on their 1st run (unless they look up game details or are otherwise informed). This scenario is only relevant in 2nd or later playthroughs, where both players are aware of the Headband's existence. Given that, Player 1 is actually *not* making a good build anymore...unless they are waiting for headgear that is better than the Headband.

Plus, part of the fun of D&D for me is crafting different builds, and foreknowledge of items in BG3 allows for a larger parameter space of feasible/powerful builds. I'm not seeing the problem if you can craft superior builds on subsequent playthroughs by using the knowledge you got from previous playthroughs - that's part of the charm of replaying games.
I guess it comes down to whether you like item-centric, of character-centric builds then. I prefer items to boost a character build, but not be a build around thing. I don't like that a simple item like a Headband of Intellect can completely reverse the fact that High Elves or Githyanki should make good EK's. Or that intelligent characters in general should make the best hybrid Int spellcasters.

5e also tried to downplay the impact of magic items. Odd that they would simultaneously design a magic item that overrides ability scores rather than enhances them, but there it is. Personally, I like reducing the impact of magic items a lot. Nothing more silly than a very high level DnD 3.5 character losing all their magic items (prison breaks are fun) and suddenly being demolished by low level enemies with that 12 AC. Back to BG3, dumping Int as an Intelligence spellcaster seems like something that should never be rewarded so generously.
Posted By: pachanj Re: Attributes in character creation - 31/01/23 10:20 PM
This is why magical items are rare in D&D, and why systems that promote mix/maxing are contra to the freedoms of roleplaying.
Posted By: Warlocke Re: Attributes in character creation - 31/01/23 10:21 PM
Originally Posted by 1varangian
Originally Posted by Warlocke
A +2 Int headband wouldn’t really account for the amount ogre boss being as articulate as he is, though.
Lump is largely irrelevant in the bigger picture talking about game design. They could just turn him into an Ogre Mage or simply let him be an abnormally smart Ogre.

Quote
Also, if you are playing an EK as a spellcaster instead of a Fighter with a bit of magical utility and protection then you are really missing the point of the class. 😂
Nope. The optimal way of playing an EK is to ignore Int and focus on spells that aren't affected by it. They specifically designed EK to be specialized in Evocation and Abjuration spells. But since they designed it poorly, Evocation isn't as useful and requires a stat Abjuration does not. Intelligence modifier also affecting the duration of protection spells would have been better, but they clearly wanted a simple streamlined system and this poor balance is the result.

I don’t understand what you mean by “nope.” The situation with evocation not being optimal for EK is directly what I was referring to. Unless I’m missing something that reads like you said nope and then proceeded to agree with me.
Posted By: Sozz Re: Attributes in character creation - 31/01/23 10:22 PM
Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
Originally Posted by Sozz
The headband is great early on, but there are too many more interesting options for it to be a long term slot. I did play a low INT wizard once to abuse it (before it was nerfed) and it was fun, but tying up a head slot isn't worth it to me.

Between class abilities and how malleable stats are in 5e, stat items are different from BG 1-2, you weren't playing correctly if you didn't build characters around the loot you got.

Just bringing this up quick, but what are some good helmets? So far the only one I've found that seems to be any good is that circlet of fire thing.
For Wizards the bonus action one is probably the best, because spellcasting is off-book. I like the scorching ray circlet too.
Most of my wizards these days are using the lightning charge equipment though, which means I'll park Tav or Gale in a pool of water and let the charges and life tic over every turn.

I usually put the circlet of intellect on Shadowheart, figuring she benefits the most from better int saves, but then you get the trade-off of all the actual helmets she can use. Having a cleric who is a hard target is nice, since they're usually concentrating on things.
Posted By: Warlocke Re: Attributes in character creation - 31/01/23 10:44 PM
Originally Posted by pachanj
This is why magical items are rare in D&D, and why systems that promote mix/maxing are contra to the freedoms of roleplaying.
Originally Posted by pachanj
This is why magical items are rare in D&D, and why systems that promote mix/maxing are contra to the freedoms of roleplaying.

Combat is also more rare in table top because it takes so much longer. Most sessions I play in have at most 2 encounters.

But this isn’t table top, so things need to be changed up a bit. More combat and more magical items. I’m okay with this.
Posted By: 1varangian Re: Attributes in character creation - 31/01/23 10:44 PM
Originally Posted by Warlocke
Originally Posted by 1varangian
Originally Posted by Warlocke
A +2 Int headband wouldn’t really account for the amount ogre boss being as articulate as he is, though.
Lump is largely irrelevant in the bigger picture talking about game design. They could just turn him into an Ogre Mage or simply let him be an abnormally smart Ogre.

Quote
Also, if you are playing an EK as a spellcaster instead of a Fighter with a bit of magical utility and protection then you are really missing the point of the class. 😂
Nope. The optimal way of playing an EK is to ignore Int and focus on spells that aren't affected by it. They specifically designed EK to be specialized in Evocation and Abjuration spells. But since they designed it poorly, Evocation isn't as useful and requires a stat Abjuration does not. Intelligence modifier also affecting the duration of protection spells would have been better, but they clearly wanted a simple streamlined system and this poor balance is the result.

I don’t understand what you mean by “nope.” The situation with evocation not being optimal for EK is directly what I was referring to. Unless I’m missing something that reads like you said nope and then proceeded to agree with me.
The "point of a class" is not to figure out that half their spells are a bad idea, and only using the other half. Hence, I am not missing the point of Eldritch Knight, I am pointing out what is flawed and not really working in it's design.
Posted By: Warlocke Re: Attributes in character creation - 31/01/23 10:52 PM
Originally Posted by 1varangian
Originally Posted by Warlocke
Originally Posted by 1varangian
Originally Posted by Warlocke
A +2 Int headband wouldn’t really account for the amount ogre boss being as articulate as he is, though.
Lump is largely irrelevant in the bigger picture talking about game design. They could just turn him into an Ogre Mage or simply let him be an abnormally smart Ogre.

Quote
Also, if you are playing an EK as a spellcaster instead of a Fighter with a bit of magical utility and protection then you are really missing the point of the class. 😂
Nope. The optimal way of playing an EK is to ignore Int and focus on spells that aren't affected by it. They specifically designed EK to be specialized in Evocation and Abjuration spells. But since they designed it poorly, Evocation isn't as useful and requires a stat Abjuration does not. Intelligence modifier also affecting the duration of protection spells would have been better, but they clearly wanted a simple streamlined system and this poor balance is the result.

I don’t understand what you mean by “nope.” The situation with evocation not being optimal for EK is directly what I was referring to. Unless I’m missing something that reads like you said nope and then proceeded to agree with me.
The "point of a class" is not to figure out that half their spells are a bad idea, and only using the other half. Hence, I am not missing the point of Eldritch Knight, I am pointing out what is flawed and not really working in it's design.

My point was that EK isn’t really a spell casting class so this:

Quote
Then, with Headband of Int, also surpasses the Gith in Intelligence and spellcasting.

Simply isn’t a big deal.

Sorry that didn’t come across clearly.
Posted By: dwig Re: Attributes in character creation - 31/01/23 11:36 PM
I think that 1varangian's point is that Wizards of the Coast should not have given EK evocation as one of its two schools, given that it was unlikely to be very good at offensive spell casting. Two buff schools would be better... I think that this is something I agree with.

That being said, I do not think that it is a problem to design a fun build around knowledge of magical items for a second run through. With the circlet an EK will be "decent" but not (I think) OP.
Posted By: avahZ Darkwood Re: Attributes in character creation - 01/02/23 03:02 AM
EK and magic missile for $500 please!
Posted By: 1varangian Re: Attributes in character creation - 01/02/23 03:39 PM
I like EK as a "War" type caster and Evocation fits well. It's pretty awesome to wipe out minions with a Fireball, and then take down their boss with a Greatsword. The game should not steer you away from Evocation spells after making them a core part of the class.

I think requiring and rewarding a higher Intelligence for an Arcane spellcaster hybrid class should be a thing.

I think Intelligence should affect the potency of all spells, not just offensive spells.

I think it's clear that EK is meant to be a hybrid warrior-spellcaster who uses both offensive and defensive combat spells, but lacks the utility/CC repertoire or versatility of a dedicated spellcaster. They can still pick any spell at certain levels and an 8th level EK can do stuff like Hold Person > GWM crits combo. So Intelligence can and should be a big deal with this subclass. Which leads us back to the Headband/Int dump being pretty stupid in a video game.
Posted By: Warlocke Re: Attributes in character creation - 01/02/23 03:52 PM
Originally Posted by 1varangian
I like EK as a "War" type caster and Evocation fits well. It's pretty awesome to wipe out minions with a Fireball, and then take down their boss with a Greatsword. The game should not steer you away from Evocation spells after making them a core part of the class.

I think requiring and rewarding a higher Intelligence for an Arcane spellcaster hybrid class should be a thing.

I think Intelligence should affect the potency of all spells, not just offensive spells.

I think it's clear that EK is meant to be a hybrid warrior-spellcaster who uses both offensive and defensive combat spells, but lacks the utility/CC repertoire or versatility of a dedicated spellcaster. They can still pick any spell at certain levels and an 8th level EK can do stuff like Hold Person > GWM crits combo. So Intelligence can and should be a big deal with this subclass. Which leads us back to the Headband/Int dump being pretty stupid in a video game.

I think it’s pretty clear that EK is not meant to be equally hybrid as a caster and warrior. They don’t get 3rd level spell slots until level 13, at which point a wizard has a level 7 spell slot. Any fireballs cast by an EK are going to do paltry damage against the enemies you are facing by that point.

The EK is first and foremost a fighter but had a bit of magic up their sleeve, but they aren’t designed to be proper casting class or even an equal warrior-casting hybrid.
Posted By: pachanj Re: Attributes in character creation - 01/02/23 05:08 PM
An Eldritch Knight is a ... knight ... whose prowess is empowered by the magic of an Elder God. They are not a spell caster wearing armor. They are not a warrior casting spells. They are a knight with the ability to embue themselves with magic fury. Their power comes from their access to buffs, debuffs, touch range spells, etc.
Posted By: Blackheifer Re: Attributes in character creation - 01/02/23 06:47 PM
Originally Posted by 1varangian
I like EK as a "War" type caster and Evocation fits well. It's pretty awesome to wipe out minions with a Fireball, and then take down their boss with a Greatsword. The game should not steer you away from Evocation spells after making them a core part of the class.

I think requiring and rewarding a higher Intelligence for an Arcane spellcaster hybrid class should be a thing.

I think Intelligence should affect the potency of all spells, not just offensive spells.

I think it's clear that EK is meant to be a hybrid warrior-spellcaster who uses both offensive and defensive combat spells, but lacks the utility/CC repertoire or versatility of a dedicated spellcaster. They can still pick any spell at certain levels and an 8th level EK can do stuff like Hold Person > GWM crits combo. So Intelligence can and should be a big deal with this subclass. Which leads us back to the Headband/Int dump being pretty stupid in a video game.

These kinds of hybrid classes tend to weaken the class overall, but I get the RP value of it. For what you sacrifice you don't get an equivalent level of power and you end up with a weaker class overall.

I was going to say a Githyanki Battle Mage would make more sense with high str and int - you never get the multi-attack options of warriors, but you do get all the wizard power and a strong melee attack if you run out of spells, plus the high AC and crit protection of a proper metal helmet.


BUT - looking over the EK it has some cool shit. Transposition, can't be disarmed, War Magic. Eldritch Strike basically makes you a demon killer since the higher ups all have spell resistance - although would be better if it was disadvantage against ANY spell.

Fighter sublasses have a lot of weight because the base fighter is kind of - well - basic.
Posted By: avahZ Darkwood Re: Attributes in character creation - 01/02/23 11:46 PM
Originally Posted by 1varangian
I like EK as a "War" type caster and Evocation fits well. It's pretty awesome to wipe out minions with a Fireball, and then take down their boss with a Greatsword. The game should not steer you away from Evocation spells after making them a core part of the class.

I think requiring and rewarding a higher Intelligence for an Arcane spellcaster hybrid class should be a thing.

I think Intelligence should affect the potency of all spells, not just offensive spells.

I think it's clear that EK is meant to be a hybrid warrior-spellcaster who uses both offensive and defensive combat spells, but lacks the utility/CC repertoire or versatility of a dedicated spellcaster. They can still pick any spell at certain levels and an 8th level EK can do stuff like Hold Person > GWM crits combo. So Intelligence can and should be a big deal with this subclass. Which leads us back to the Headband/Int dump being pretty stupid in a video game.

With reasonable rolled (rerolled) stats, an EK can come out stronger IMO than a Battle Master if you can pick up the Martial Adept trait. With the current point method that’s less likely.
Posted By: Terminator2020 Re: Attributes in character creation - 02/02/23 04:11 AM
INT can be valuable if you are Wizard or subclass that needs it. I know that also Rogue in DND5 have one subclass that needs at least ok/good INT so can not be dump for that subclass. Well then there is Eldritch Knight perhaps for RP reasons and fairly good subclass.

However wrong saying INT is needed for all spell casting. In DND 5 both Wisdom and Charisma affect some classes spellcasting ability so I would still rank INT as most favored stat to dump in DND 5. It was not so that INT sucks in DnD 3.5 and I guess Pathfinder that is developed from DND 3.5 where INT affect the amount of skill points you get etc.

Wisdom you could dump, but that is dangerous because so many spells require Wisdom save so Wisdom say 8 sounds bad unless extreme buypoint system like BG3 27 points and you need to get some stat up but 10 at least on Wisdom sounds wise. At full release I hope they have one can rolls stats and then I will roll stats up to KINGDOM COME high but even when rolling INT will likely be my number one dump stat.

In modern real life INT is not something you want to dumb because much Office work careers benefit from INT, but of course a sport athlete or construction worker hard labor does not need good INT in real life. However DND 5 Forgotten Realms reminds more of early medieval times in technology.
Posted By: 1varangian Re: Attributes in character creation - 02/02/23 11:34 AM
Originally Posted by Warlocke
Originally Posted by 1varangian
I like EK as a "War" type caster and Evocation fits well. It's pretty awesome to wipe out minions with a Fireball, and then take down their boss with a Greatsword. The game should not steer you away from Evocation spells after making them a core part of the class.

I think requiring and rewarding a higher Intelligence for an Arcane spellcaster hybrid class should be a thing.

I think Intelligence should affect the potency of all spells, not just offensive spells.

I think it's clear that EK is meant to be a hybrid warrior-spellcaster who uses both offensive and defensive combat spells, but lacks the utility/CC repertoire or versatility of a dedicated spellcaster. They can still pick any spell at certain levels and an 8th level EK can do stuff like Hold Person > GWM crits combo. So Intelligence can and should be a big deal with this subclass. Which leads us back to the Headband/Int dump being pretty stupid in a video game.

I think it’s pretty clear that EK is not meant to be equally hybrid as a caster and warrior. They don’t get 3rd level spell slots until level 13, at which point a wizard has a level 7 spell slot. Any fireballs cast by an EK are going to do paltry damage against the enemies you are facing by that point.

The EK is first and foremost a fighter but had a bit of magic up their sleeve, but they aren’t designed to be proper casting class or even an equal warrior-casting hybrid.
I didn't say anything about equal. Obviously not. The difference between being a hybrid or not is casting spells or not casting spells. This is just getting into arguing for argument's sake now. It started with you stating that if I use Evocation spells on an EK, I'm not "getting the point" of the sub-class while Evocation is factually 50% of their magic. No need to continue I think.
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