In past messaging, the devs have made it sound like the multi-class magic system wasn't going to be as punishing as it is in PnP. Does anyone have specifics on how this plays out?

Obviously some classes are more affected by this than others. Paladins don't need class levels to do their smites with higher slots and the INT based subclasses progress so slowly anyway that multi-classing with them is an improvement at pretty much any level.

Full casters on the other hand are significantly impacted in available spells vs spell slots when multi-classing and I would love to know how this works before launch day.

Thanks!

Oh also when it comes to similar Class vs Character levels, do we know how things like wildshape scaling are affected?

Not 100% sure and as far as I know no gameplay footage from the full game has shown multiclassing in action, but my impression is they are trying to separate to some extent the levels of each class to...so if you have 4 levels of barbarian and want to take a level of Wizard at level 5 that level will not exactly be the 1st level of Wizard so instead of receiving the level 1 stuff you receive what a wizard would receive at level 5 without having the stuff of levels 1-4...though I am assuming there is some exception there for something like subclass and maybe level 1 cantrips. So in a way it would be like having level 5 wizard benefits while only having one level of wizard.

I didn't understand sh*t about the new spell slots interaction. The Italian article where this was mentioned either made s poor job of conveying the meaning of Nick's words or Nick himself made a terrible job explaining things. Or I am stupid.

I highly doubt it will work like that or they've thrown any semblance of balance out of the window...

It is pure speculation until the game is released anyway. There simply isn't enough information about multiclassing, except that they've removed the ability restrictions (which is a decision I think will prove to be bad).

Larian hasn't given specifics, aside from [paraphrased] "we want multiclassed spellcasters to get access to higher level spells (like fireball) earlier."

Do you treat your total level as your spellcasting class level for spells known? I.e., a 10 Barbarian/1 Wizard can learn 6th level wizard spells.
Do you only add up your "caster class" levels? I.e., a 10 Barbarian/1 Wizard can only learn 1st level spells. But a level 10 Cleric/level 1 Wizard can learn 6th level Cleric and Wizard spells?
Do you get a +1 to the effective spellcasting level of your lower-level spellcasting class? I.e., a 10 Barbarian/1 Wizard can cast 2nd level Wizard spells?

Who knows.

This is definitely the question I most want answered so I can figure out my class plans, tbh. I'm okay with whatever they decide, I just need to know :v) It's Larian so balance is always a little questionable, it wouldn't surprise me at all to see 'you just get the combined total of your caster levels and all spells for all those classes'. Which I'd honestly be okay with, for all that yes it yeets balance right out the window.

I mean, Divine Soul Sorcerers exist, so WoTC obviously doesn't feel like having access to 90% of all spells is a problem.

I have zero evidence for this; but from a pure easy-of-use and ease-of-coding perspective I am expecting the game to track Full Caster, Half Caster, and Warlock levels as seperate tallies, and provide spell slots based on those tallies: and then let you choose spells from the lists based on your highest caster level in each category.

So a Level 4 Battle Master/Level 1 Wizard will have 2 level 1 slots and can choose Level 1 spells.

A Level 3 Cleric/Level 2 Wizard will have four level 1 slots, four level 2 slots, and two level 3 slots and can prepare any spell of either class up to level 3 spells.

A Level 3 Warlock/Level 2 Ranger will have two level 1 slots and 2 level 2 warlock slots, and can choose level 1 ranger spells and level 2 warlock spells. Etc etc

They've unlocked things with reckless abandon before (scrolls, ba hide, ba disengage) so I'm expecting some terrible unbalanced mess with caster multiclassing after their statement.

The worst would be allowing max spell level for all caster classes be determined by character level or highest caster level. But those would also be the simplest and I can't see them making the rules more complicated than 5e. Probably character level so players can't "ruin" their characters by going Cleric 6 / Wizard 6.

We will have Cleric 11 / Wizard 1 casting Disintegrate or something asinine like that. Single class casters rendered obsolete.

And why exactly does the game need this rule change when you can already respec at will?

From what I've understood you get the highest spell slot level you have access to to unlock known spells. Currently in 5e you can end up having higher spell slot levels than known spells (combining half casters with casters for an example, since spell slots are calculated based on a mixed progression). But I could be wrong.

Yeah, I never multiclass casters, so always struggle to remember the system for this, even after all these years. But it is quite plainly explained in the PHB. With so many rule changes by Larian for supposed inclusiveness and simpleness, this one is definetly one I could see them changing from PHB.

In 5e, Spell Slots are determined by your Total Caster Level, which you calculate by adding 1 from full casters, 1/2 from half casters, etc. Warlock is its own thing. A Wizard 3/Cleric 3 has the same # of and level of spell slots as a Wizard 6.

Spells Known & Prepared are determined by your individual classes. A level 3 wizard/X "other" is effectively just considered a pure level 3 wizard when determining how many wizard spells they know and can prepare each day. But they can upcast their wizard spells into higher level spell slots (if they have any).

This is what I'm worried about the most. We have respec so they don't need to be ruining the balance between single/multi class. Also, I'm assuming the level up screen for multiclassing will work similarly to choosing your subclass. In that it will show you what you would get as you choose a different option. If I stay wizard then I'll get fireball, if I go something else then I lose don't get that spell this level.

The pros and cons are what makes building your character fun. I don't want multiclassing to have all the benefits with none of the drawbacks.

Larian isn't big on drawbacks or being able to screw up your build, so honestly I suspect that's what they'll try to highly get rid of. The example they used in the interview was MCing and getting fireball later and how they didn't like that.

Oh, multiclassing is going to be hilariously broken on release. Even besides the baffling comment about fireball, there are so many specific rules about how different class features are supposed to work with each other that there's no way they've implemented it all (correctly), especially since they seem to look at dnd rules a little contemptuously, like they're more of this "stuffy old inconvenience" than something that exists for a reason.

E.g. I'm almost expecting saving throw proficiencies and extra attacks to stack.

This will be a hot mess. The only way they can 'balance' this out is by giving pure classes some ridiculous features at level 12. If they even want pure classes to exist.

This really bothers me in BG3 development.

I'm not a rules lawyer or saying that 5e is the best ruleset ever. I'm not biased one way or the other, I just want GOOD rules that are fun and balanced without obvious no-brainer exploits.

5e rules are generally very good and balanced. The class design is very strong. Classes get their identity as much from what they can do as what other classes can't. It makes playing a certain class feel great and unique. Divinity rules are terrible in comparison. Armor mechanics are 0/5, mmo cooldowns, massive inflated HP pools. Very generic unimaginative video game stuff. Classes are a diluted mess where they don't mean anything. But it seems DOS is the love child of Larian systems designers and everything else is inferior and should be assimilated. Nothing else has a chance of thriving over there, like D&D with a vastly different (better for RPG) design foundation.

Cleric 4 / Sorcerer 1 needs to be able to Wet + Lightning Bolt for 16d6 because it's their idea of fun? Not mine. And not D&D's.

It is however the idea of fun of a lot of people, including general RPG fans, MMO players, DOS2 fans, etc. It's definitely a more widely appreciated approach in a lot of ways. And honestly, I'm not sure they really DO want pure classes to exist. They're really excited for multiclassing and how you can respec, from what I've seen. They don't want multiclassing to really hurt you, they seem to want it to be more like putting multiple points in things in DOS2. Honestly I'm fine/happy with it, but I was never a big D&D fan to begin with. I'm here because of Larian first and foremost.

Larian have certainly said that they see multi-classing as something for experienced players and that they’ve tried not to draw attention to it for newer players. So, given the intended audience for it is likely to be the least in favour of it being boringly overpowered, I’m going to remain optimistic for now that any tweaks to the way it works will be relatively minor. I’d definitely appreciate some clarity on how spell progression will be handled, though, as I agree the comment about getting fireball earlier was somewhat concerning!

Yeah, that's what I meant. In your Wizard 3 / Cleric 3 example I think Larian plans to give the multiclassed version access to all spells that they have spell slots for - so you could pick cleric spells as if you were a level 6 cleric and not level 3 - I guess wizards will maybe even on their level up then be able to learn spells as a wizard level 6 (not to mention the mess that their access to scrolls will allow). If Larian goes this way, you can sprinkle 1 level of Wizard into every other full caster and never bother to go higher on the Wizard and still have the full range of spells and full amount of spell slots. I guess that is also why they didn't bother fixing healing spell scrolls which wizards could learn in EA.

I just wonder if we will need to await the full game before finding out how they will implement things.
Maybe it will a slight buff from 5e rules,,maybe after seeing the feedback it will be per 5e..maybe the article is just wrong.
Its interesting they saud werent encouraging multilclassing...made it a smaller icon at character levelling screen...then at the same time suggested it needed a buff for full casters. I just hope its not hardcoded so modders can change it.

I don't like multiclassing if most of the disadvantages were removed. In my opinion each class should be independently monitored. So if I level Barbarian to 4 and put the next point into Rogue (cause later I want the two bonus actions of Thief for my Berserker), then I should get the lvl 4 stuff of Barbarian + the lvl 1 stuff of Rogue. But not the second action the Barbarian would get at lvl 5.

It's ok that they removed the ability prerequisites. That they want to make spells and maybe other stuff more easily available than "normal" led me to the conclusion: Probably don't use multiclassing in BG3. Similar to not using stealth or a lot of shoving in EA.

As that's much speculation, let's wait and see.

Probably not. At least one of the journalists that get review copies are sure to try it, and surely the embargo isn't going to last into launch--that wouldn't make any sense.

While neither Larian's games nor 5e are exactly known for their fantastic balance, I seriously hope this isn't the case because it's just too much. The designers at Larian can't possibly think a 5th level cleric should get access to fireball and haste just by taking 1 level in wizard. 5e spellcasters especially don't need any more power than they already have. Either way, we'll know for sure in a week.

It is very alarming to hear the lead systems designer basically say everyone needs Fireball sooner.

Fireball is probably the best example of an iconic power that exists to reward single class dedication. The reason to go single class in the first place. The last power you should readily hand out because it's so cool. It won't be so cool anymore if every Bard 4 / Wizard 1 has it.

If the lead systems designer doesn't get that WotC should put their foot down and educate them. Probably Larian have a contract that allows them to mess things up as they want though.

Turning Wizard into a dip 1 -class would be something I wouldn't be able to recover from anymore. Probably the liberal scroll use already is when we start seeing stuff like a late game Karlach unleashing her scroll arsenal of Disintegrates and Greater Invisibility to beat a tough encounter.

Didn't the video in which Swen talks about the mutliclass thing has him mention fireball as an example for something you do not get?
Yes, he said that they want to make multiclassing less punishing, but I did not get the impression that this means that they just give everyone fireball.

I can't find the video-link anymore, does anyone have it?
I would like to rewatch it, to maybe get a better feel to the two sentences.

Hi, i have a question about bard's college of lore subclass features.
In early access you get this constant Additional Proficiencies: Gain Proficiency in Arcana, Intimidation and Sleight of Hand.
But in original D&D5E in PHB you recive this bonus: Bonus proficencies: when you join the College of Lore at 3rd level, you gain proficiency with three skills of your choice.

So you can pick 3 proficiency and i want to do it instead of gaining 3 constant skills. I wonder if larian will change that in full game, i dont want my bard to have an Intimidation proficiency. Do we have any information about that?

If the game releases with multiclassing being broken, and snagging 1 level of wizard gets you all their spells, then that would be a huge disappointment. I am really looking forward to multiclassing, but I just wouldn't do it if it was that busted. My characters wouldn't have any flavor if they were multiclassed. "Oh look, another multiclassed caster with every spell in the game, just like my previous playthrough."

I'd feel like I was forced to stay single class just to keep things fun. I'm sure that would make tactician difficulty really rough if multiclassing ends up being overpowered.

Hoping for the best, but definitely worried with the little info we have.

Weirdly, I have more of an issue with the scrolls than I do the MCing. I guess because you can sort of choose not to MC if you don't want to, but the scroll thing exists regardless. Honestly being able to dip for spells isn't an issue to me though, and I suspect Larian thinks similarly in this regard, because if you don't want to go that route you can just stick to a single class. Pure casters work just fine. I don't see it as 'won't be so cool anymore' because you still have spell slot limits, there's over 600 spells, and it's up to you what type of spellcaster you want to be. There's enough room to focus on specific elements or spell types or *gestures* And that's all fine, even with a broader spell list. If anything a broader spell list just gives you more room to pick decent options for your theme, tbh, which I think is sort of where they're trying to lean. Greater RP and greater character options.

Keep in mind though, you are going to get MAD real quick if you are multiclassing wisdom and intelligence. You may have fireball on your wizard list, but if you have a 10 or 12 in int, it's going to be be doing half damage a lot more than if you single classed.

8/8/8 stat start, let's gooooo

Yeah. We don’t know how it is implemented yet, but I think there is a good chance it won’t be quite as broken as it initially appears to be.

Larian did say that they plan on having various stat-boosting items like the Headband of Intellect to encourage such multiclassing. If they give powerful versions of items that set stats to 19 (or 20!) rather than just 17, then you won't need to worry too much about these multiclass combos being MAD.

Yeah, 'you won't need to worry' is the vibe they are definitely going for.

Still the opportunity cost, can't take the "refill a bonus action when you deal fire damage" helm

Except this is not only about Fireball and whether or not it might have a DC a few points lower.

It's about Clerics / Paladins / Bards / Warlocks / whoever dipping into Wizard to get their stuff, if it's being made easier. Misty Step. Mirror Image. Cloud of Daggers. Detect Thoughts. Disguise Self. Fly. Stoneskin. Counterspell.

Not everything has a DC. And I have a feeling they are making this theft very easy to do.

Yep, sounds like they are depending on action economy to handle balance.

Ah yes, the action economy.

Laughs in Spell + Hasted Spell + Quickened Spell + item that give you an extra Bonus Action spell (or the BA cantrip "Shove") + Action Surged Spell + Fast Hands Bonus Action (quickened spell, obviously) + probably another item(set) that makes spells more powerful and/or gives you another action to cast a spell.

At this point you're just TRYING to find something broken, though, and if you're hardcore looking for it you're going to find it--it's impossible to fully balance a game of this magnitude. JUST having access to other spell lists isn't in and of itself broken; hell, WotC allows it, depending on choices. Ultimately we're still going to run into issues of only one conc spell, and only one spell per turn without other things stacked on top of that. I think it's fine, tbh.

There are a good many posters here who have spent the last three years looking for things to complain about at every opportunity (many of them visiting here almost every day and making sure everybody knows how unsatisfied there are). You learn to tune it out after a while.

This is true, but not true as well. A lot of same posters write a lot of other things besides their criticism. I agree that it can be a bit tiring, but it is no good to reduce their contribution to mere complaining.

I mean...yeah? This was half real and half hyperbole. No one is actually going to take 3 levels in rogue just to get another bonus action for their spellcasting and I have no idea if you can Quicken two things per turn in BG3. Let alone the (hopefully?) non-existent "item that gives you another action to cast a spell."

That said, even in 5e RAW it's fairly common to take 2 levels of Fighter for Action Surged Spells, and Potions of Speed aren't that rare. So 3 to 4 leveled spells in a turn isn't that hard to pull off for a sorcerer in BG3.

...which I'll use to get slightly back on topic. Ideally multiclassing into 2 levels of Fighter will slow your spell progression and levels of spells known.

Haha don't be so sure. If you followed BG3 content on you tube for example, there are a lot of videos (sin tee for example) made with the sole purpose of stacking every pre-buff possible and gaining every action economy bit in the game to showcase a " GITHYANKI PATROL SOLO PALADIN INSANE ULTRA DIVINE PUNISHER-BANISHER" build. Those get a lot of views and there will be people playing the game like this

This is fair, but not necesarily fair. I remember vividly how it was when EA just hit. The same people that shouted 'rraaarraa it's DOS3 not BG3 becasue it's not Real-time-with-pause', were the same people that shouted 'rrraaarrraaaa Larian hates D&D because they changed a thing from the rules'

These two things are mutually exclusive. RTWP would annihilate that which sets 5E apart from every other edition, namely the Action economy. So, no matter what choice they'd have made here, they'd have at least half of the 'Rrraaarraaaa's' and quite likely traded that for a new 'Rrraarraaa' for not honoring the action economy. There were a great number of those back then, to the point where I told myself I'd never come back here again. Alas, the hype got me and here I am. Things are a fair bit better now, luckily.

If they will allow Sorcerers to triple Fireball their way through every encounter with Haste and Quicken, calling hard difficulty "Tactician" is a bit of a joke isn't it.

Same. I stopped coming for about 7 or 8 months but I came back a little while ago and things are definitely better than they used to be. And there are a handful of posters I have just blocked and it makes the place more pleasant.

Did Larian take out the "That action can be used only to take the Attack (one weapon attack only), Dash, Disengage, Hide, or Use an Object action" from Haste and even stricter limitation from Fast Hands? As for Bonus Action Spells, you should be able to cast them faster. For 2 Fireballs, you need Sorcerer 5, Quicken Spell, and you consume 2 of 5 Sorcery Points and both 3rd Level Spell Slots. For 3 Fireballs, you need Fighter 2/Sorcerer 6, Quicken Spell, and you consume Action Surge, 2 of 5 Sorcery Points, and all 3 3rd Level Spell Slots. It's very valuable, maybe OP, but it consumes resources. Anyway, Fighter 2/Sorcerer n isn't on the list of most OP multiclasses.

You can Haste yourself with a potion rather than taking two levels of Fighter for triple Fireball.

Larian also provided a handy Circlet that grants you an extra Bonus Action when you deal fire damage. So you can Fireball + Quicken twice for two more Fireballs without having to use any Haste potions.

Of course Wet + triple Lightning Bolt will be a lot better since it does the damage of 6 Lightning Bolts.

To report only my understanding of the facts and not express any smidge of opinion :P

• Correct: the Haste limitations of 5e aren't (currently) implemented in BG3. You get a full additional action.
• Correct: the Fast Hands limitations also aren't (currently) implemented in BG3. You get a full additional bonus action.
• IIRC Quicken was changed to cost 3 sorcery points. In exchange, the "if you cast a bonus action leveled spell, you can only cast a cantrip with your main action" restriction of 5e was removed in BG3.
• The Fighter 2/Sorcerer X is strictly more powerful in BG3 than in 5e due to the above (among other changes). However, it's unclear how it compares to other multiclass combos in BG3, at least partly due to us not having all the information about spellcasting for multiclassed characters.

At the very least, it will be interesting to see what interesting and/or OP multiclass combos are found in BG3. The typical 5e OP-multiclasses are well known at this point. But even if we knew the full BG3 multiclassing rules, theorycrafting isn't necessarily a perfect replacement for actual experience. I imagine some combos will only become apparent after they're discovered in game and posted about.

Especially when you take into account the plethora of as-of-yet-unknown magic items that will be in BG3.

Wow! I guess Sven said "more Fireballs!" and his company complied.

Triple Fireball is for noobs in this Larian game. You get more damage by casting Create Water followed by two Glyphs of Warding with Lightning Damage. :P

Then throw in a 2 class dip into Tempest Domain Cleric and you can max roll the damage on them...

I for one like it. Can't wait to see if my LoreBard/GOOlock ends up slightly less underpowered than I anticipate. x) For someone like me who prefers creating characters not based on mechanical optimization but mainly roleplaying / personal story, this is probably good news.

Exploiting surfaces and spell synergy in a Larian game? Please, what amateurism is that? 9/10 experts agree that shooting a fire arrow at the mountain of barrels you've stealthily stacked around the big bad is the way to go

Barrelmancy!

Q: The interview with Multiplayer. It raised some questions with regard to the changes you're making compared to the core ruleset. For example, can you clarify the tweaks applied to multiclassing caster classes? Some fans are worried they might lead to overpowered characters unless martial classes are also allowed to stack extra attacks when multiclassing.

A: When multiclassing, the levels of your classes and subclasses that normally have access to spell slots are added together in a weighted formula, and then the overall spellcasting level is used to determine how many and which levels of spell slots you will receive.

Warlocks are an exception here in that they only get their fixed-level spell slots.

--

https://wccftech.com/baldurs-gate-3...racters-rule-changes-crossplay-and-more/

Someone asked about multiclassing, and... near as I can tell got told 'we're doing spell slots like 5e', but no talk about the Italian interview or how that's going to factor?