Larian Studios
Posted By: Gaddy Random items or memorable ones? - 02/03/20 01:52 PM
Countless items with random stats and bonus, that forces you to spend all your time in the inventory comparing boring numbers, was my one major issue with DoS 1 & 2 (which apart from that were incredible, <3 Lohse song).
I dreamed so much of the same games but with much less and much more memorable items... yes, exactly like in good old baldur's gate games !

So, whatever you like or not those random items everywhere, do you have some information about what is planned for BG3 ?

I took a few screenshots from the gameplay video, and here is what I found.

About weapons (see below), it looks good: no random stats, good old 1D6, 1D8 etc damages.
But! Next screenshots are 3 armours... They all have the same name, same icon, but with 3 different armour class numbers.

So... what I fear is that only the few first weapons in the game aren't random (as that would have been a bit difficult to do with the dices system on very low numbers). And that as soon as possible they will go back to the DoS system, that being right from the beginning for armours. And so I cry frown


image list : https://imgur.com/gallery/uoGB8Aa

WEAPONS (there are others in the video, but they are similar):

[Linked Image][Linked Image]

ARMOURS:

[Linked Image][Linked Image][Linked Image]



Posted By: AbiDalzim Re: Random items or memorable ones? - 02/03/20 02:01 PM
I agree with you.
Posted By: Dark_Ansem Re: Random items or memorable ones? - 02/03/20 03:33 PM
Slash?
Posted By: Gmazca Re: Random items or memorable ones? - 02/03/20 06:30 PM
Originally Posted by Dark_Ansem
Slash?


It looks like Larian wants to make each weapon type have a certain flavor. Bows have "Pin Down," swords have "Slash," etc. Just a way to add a bit of extra style.

However, I don't think a rapier should have "slash" considering it's a piercing weapon lol.
Posted By: Madscientist Re: Random items or memorable ones? - 02/03/20 07:24 PM
Nice finding

They should just stick to the DnD rules, no need for random stuff.
D:OS1+2 are good games but I dislike random equipment and inflating numbers.
Slash makes absolutely no sense for weapons that deal pierce damage.
Plus it makes no sense that a regular attack with a generic weapon causes bleed damage at all.

In one image the cuirass is a light armor, then a medium and then a heavy armor, having different AC, weight and price but the same description. ouch

PLEASE USE THE DnD RULES !!!

PS: We need a facepalm smiley
Posted By: ZeshinX Re: Random items or memorable ones? - 02/03/20 07:37 PM
Well, can't say I'm a fan of those extra effects, as they aren't very D&D 5e at all. As magical effects on magical items, bring it on, but just generic, non-magical weapons? Definitely not a fan.
Posted By: Gmazca Re: Random items or memorable ones? - 02/03/20 08:15 PM
Originally Posted by Madscientist
Nice finding

In one image the cuirass is a light armor, then a medium and then a heavy armor, having different AC, weight and price but the same description. ouch



I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that the Cuirasses are placeholder armor sets. I would think they would distinguish between Leather, Studded Leather, Splint, Plate, etc as they start adding more detail to items and their descriptions. At least, that is my hope.
Posted By: Sordak Re: Random items or memorable ones? - 02/03/20 08:41 PM
i mean this is an obvous one. handcrafted weapons are always superior to diablo loot.
theyre more work, but i dont think anyones gonna say" yeah give me randomly generated generic stuff instead of thematic handcrafted ones"
Posted By: Full Bleed Re: Random items or memorable ones? - 02/03/20 10:05 PM
Originally Posted by Madscientist

They should just stick to the DnD rules, no need for random stuff.

Slash makes absolutely no sense for weapons that deal pierce damage.
Plus it makes no sense that a regular attack with a generic weapon causes bleed damage at all.

PLEASE USE THE DnD RULES !!!


This.

They're making it harder on themselves to counter all the BG3 vs DOS3 angst if they aren't going to at least justify using the name by making the best/truest "D&D" game they can (and I'm very Pro-Larian on this issue--I'm happy that the DOS turn-based engine is the basis for a D&D game... even one called BG3!)

But, sorry, bows don't "Pin Down" people in D&D. And "Bleeding" isn't even a standard Condition in 5e, let alone something that should be a default effect of such mundane weapon types.
Posted By: Gmazca Re: Random items or memorable ones? - 02/03/20 10:12 PM
Originally Posted by Full Bleed
Originally Posted by Madscientist

They should just stick to the DnD rules, no need for random stuff.

Slash makes absolutely no sense for weapons that deal pierce damage.
Plus it makes no sense that a regular attack with a generic weapon causes bleed damage at all.

PLEASE USE THE DnD RULES !!!


This.

They're making it harder on themselves to counter all the BG3 vs DOS3 angst if they aren't going to at least justify using the name by making the best/truest "D&D" game they can (and I'm very Pro-Larian on this issue--I'm happy that the DOS turn-based engine is the basis for a D&D game... even one called BG3!)

But, sorry, bows don't "Pin Down" people in D&D. And "Bleeding" isn't even a standard Condition in 5e, let alone something that should be a default effect of such mundane weapon types.


I see your point, and I have to agree. It's almost like they are trying to compensate for 5e's lack of magical items in general. In a table top setting, you aren't likely to get a magic weapon until you are a handful of levels in.

Larian just needs to realize we don't need flashy abilities on mundane weapons to be entertained. Just let the non-magical shortsword do 1d6+Dex and be done with it.
Posted By: Danielbda Re: Random items or memorable ones? - 03/03/20 12:03 AM
I wouldn't mind random magical items if the unique ones all have fixed locations. I really hope they go wild with the magical items, since 5e severely lacks in this department.
Posted By: Madscientist Re: Random items or memorable ones? - 03/03/20 09:48 AM
Originally Posted by Danielbda
I wouldn't mind random magical items if the unique ones all have fixed locations. I really hope they go wild with the magical items, since 5e severely lacks in this department.


NOOOOO ! ! !

DnD rules are good because it takes some time until you find some magic items.
I do not know DnD 5E, but BG1 was great. You start with cheap equipment and it takes some time until you find your first magic item. You can go anywhere, but most enemies would kill you right away, even a lone wolf can be deadly for a lv1 char. You have to find companions and some easy enemies or quests before exploring some of the more dangerous areas. Finding your first magic weapon+1 felt importent, finally your weapon could not break anymore and you are able to damage some enemies at all. Getting the longsword+2 with +2 ice damage felt as impressive as getting the holy avenger in BG2. At the end of the game you had lv 8 - 10 (depending on your class), +2 equipment and you could beat some powerful enemies, even demons.

On the other hand, look at D:OS2. You are a wizard and you find an epic staff with +int and +fire skill. Your reaction: "Well, thats nice but next level I find a lengendary weapon with twice the stat bonus. And I would prefer a bonus to lightning damage and it does not cause a burn dot on hit."

So magic items should be rare, expensive and placed by hand in locations where it makes sense.
Magic items with unique abilities should only be found after beating a very hard boss, in a secret chamber in a dungeon full of traps or sold at the black market for an extremely high prize and you have to do lots of efford to learn about this market, find it and enter it.
Posted By: LostSoul Re: Random items or memorable ones? - 03/03/20 09:54 AM
So isn't "slash" or "pin down" like a special skill/ attack that you can use with those weapons equipped.. or are they just added to a normal attack? I thought the former.
Posted By: Gaddy Re: Random items or memorable ones? - 03/03/20 10:35 AM
Thanks to all of you for your feedbacks

So none of you know more about it? As I didn't watch everything that was released (full video, press articles, etc) I hoped that there would be some info about it.

Other question: do you know some other recent RPG (preferably a high fantasy one) with such unique and memorable items ?
Posted By: Madscientist Re: Random items or memorable ones? - 03/03/20 11:29 AM
Baldurs Gate 1+2, Dragon Age Origins and Pillars of Eternity 2 do not have random items, all loot is fixed. I think the same is true for most games of this genre. Pillars of Eternity 1 had most loot fixed, but a small number of items was semi random: At some places you could find one of different items depending on which day of the month you had. Very annoying in some cases, like getting the gloves that let you attack faster.

I think the random loot is a typical Larian thing. Their first game Divine Divinity had the same combat style as Diablo. Both Divine Divinity and Divinity 2 were single character action RPGs were you bash or burn enemies every few seconds. There it is OK if enemies drop random stuff and you buy and sell new stuff all the time.

When they switched from single character action games to turn based RPG with a full party they should have changed the loot system from random stuff in every barrel to hand placed magic items and artifacts.
I would like something where they combine the combat of Temple of Elemental Evil ( some people say it is the best DnD rule adaption, but its 3E) combined with the humor and origin characters from Larian.
Posted By: Gaddy Re: Random items or memorable ones? - 03/03/20 12:19 PM
Originally Posted by Madscientist
Baldurs Gate 1+2, Dragon Age Origins and Pillars of Eternity 2 do not have random items, all loot is fixed.
Thanks for the list. I have played BG 1+2 and Dragon Age a long time ago ; and I didn't get hooked on Pillar of Eternity when I tried, but maybe I should try again.


Pleeeeeeeease Larian, make items few and memorable, we are counting on you !
Posted By: Emrikol Re: Random items or memorable ones? - 03/03/20 04:07 PM
It would be nice (and probably very simple) to have an option to select a low loot level. To use DOS2 as an example, perhaps disable all non Unique loot. Also, perhaps fill the loot tables with more craftable components so that instead of getting no 'reward' for a majority of encounters, you can occasionally get pieces to craft something.
Posted By: Madscientist Re: Random items or memorable ones? - 03/03/20 04:57 PM
Originally Posted by Emrikol
It would be nice (and probably very simple) to have an option to select a low loot level. To use DOS2 as an example, perhaps disable all non Unique loot. Also, perhaps fill the loot tables with more craftable components so that instead of getting no 'reward' for a majority of encounters, you can occasionally get pieces to craft something.


Or you could simply use the DnD 5E rules because

- The game is announced as a game based on DnD 5E
- Creating a new system costs time and money that would better be spend elswhere, such as more areas, quests and characters and most importent more bug testing.
Creating a new system will produce bugs and balance problems and then you will need more time and money to fix it.

I am NOT against inventing new mechanics in games, else we would still be playing Pong all day. But a game that is based on an existing system (DnD 5E) is the wrong place to re invent the wheel.
Posted By: Sordak Re: Random items or memorable ones? - 03/03/20 05:07 PM
On the armor class thing:

i think thats the total armor class?
as in the armor class for that character after the modifyer for the armor?
Posted By: Emrikol Re: Random items or memorable ones? - 03/03/20 05:10 PM
For clarification, I would like the loot level to be low (which I guess D&D 5e is...haven't kept up). However, like the whole TB vs RTwP debate, I think there will be a divide on the loot issue; some like more, some like less. Unlike TB vs RTwP, though, which will be enormously difficult to accommodate both, I don't think it would take much effort at all to allow an option for both loot preferences. No reinventing of the wheel required there. It would end up having little more effect than another difficulty option (whether that means harder than default or easier than default).
Posted By: Tuco Re: Random items or memorable ones? - 03/03/20 05:51 PM
Yeah, itemization is BY FAR my greatest gripe with the two DOS and I complained so often about it at any given chance that I wouldn't be surprised if someone thought I was mental at this point.

I don't want random stats, I don't want numbers escalating out of control but more than anything I want CONSISTENCY. If it's just a basic iron sword, it should have the same stats of any other basic iron sword across the entire game.

The fact that those three "cuirasses" in the screenshots have literally different categories (light, medium, heavy) seems to suggest their name/description combo is just some placeholder that fits most armors in the game at this point, though.
Or at least that's my hope.

I hope Larian can at least manage to not fuck up the itemization in a game where the D&D rules already did most of the heavy lifting for them.
Posted By: Emrikol Re: Random items or memorable ones? - 03/03/20 05:56 PM
There are two kinds of people in this world, my friend (love the avatar).

At the very least, it is an easy thing to mod in (I did so in my own game, though I never completed it ... including completely gutting the flood of vendor items).
Posted By: Maximuuus Re: Random items or memorable ones? - 03/03/20 06:00 PM
This is a Dos-like game.
Pretty sure we'll change stuff every 10 minutes...
Posted By: Gaddy Re: Random items or memorable ones? - 03/03/20 08:00 PM
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Pretty sure we'll change stuff every 10 minutes...


Changing one item of one party member every 10 min is fine with me. Let's say 10 to 30 different items for evey category (swords / rings / armours / etc), Larian can carefully design & name each of them, and it would be enough to give some nice "inventory gameplay" and memorable moments

What I don't want to is having to check / compare / sort every single item from all loots and crates ...

And you are right about light/medium/heavy armour... as you say it could very well be some placeholder to be replaced with some nice 3 standard kinds of armour. You just gave me hope again hehe
Posted By: Tuco Re: Random items or memorable ones? - 03/03/20 08:06 PM
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
This is a Dos-like game.
Pretty sure we'll change stuff every 10 minutes...

I wonder.
While the developer can STILL implement things poorly to some extent, D&D offers a very limited range to fuck things up too badly.

Let's assume Larian goes for "INSANELY POWERFUL" from D&D standards, we would still be talking about ranging from common items to +5/+6 items AT MOST in the end game.
This would still be leagues apart from DOS 1 and 2 where endgame weapons and pieces of equipment could literally end up being 100x more powerful than the basic ones, numbers-wise.

Baldur's Gate II (especially with Throne of Bhaal) was already insanely generous in terms of artifacts by D&D parameters... And frankly while a bit cheesy lore-wise I would still rate it as one of the best itemization systems in gaming.

That said, if they really want, Larian people could STILL make it annoying with a bit of their usual touch (I'm sorry, love the studio on its strengths but so far in their games they couldn't come up with a decent itemization/loot system to save their lives).
For instance they could still make random items pop up from every crate and drawer randomly every two steps, giving to the player a lot of unnecessary busywork if he wants to keep up with the game's economy.
Because some people don't realize that sometimes "less is more" and think we really need to find random trash at every step and replace it every two minutes to feel "rewarded".
Posted By: Gaddy Re: Random items or memorable ones? - 03/03/20 08:42 PM
... whereas it's so easy to put in those crates some basic stuff (basic standard sword, a few coins, etc.) that players identifies immediately and can take to sold (a little rewarding, no time lost).
And every 10 or 20 crate/loot (and in specific places), player finds some special item:
* either a standard one ("sword +1") that he easily knows if he needs it (rewarding and little time lost)
* or a unique & great one that he will check carefully (very rewarding, time gladly spent on it)
Posted By: Madscientist Re: Random items or memorable ones? - 03/03/20 09:36 PM
I totally agree with Tuco.

@Gaddy: There is no reason why you should find a magic weapon in every 10th or 20th crate.
When I saw the gameplay video there was another thing I was woriied about.
At the very beginning you walk from the starting point to the meeting with the cleric. On this way he finds many crates and bodies and each of them had several items, including several weapons and armors. At least none of this was a magic artifact, but usually DnD does not only give you very few magic items in the beginning, but also a rather low number of items in general. This flood of items is typical for Larian, but unusual in DnD.

Lets look at the beginning of BG1. You start with a quarterstaff and a few coins. These coins are enough to buy a generic weapon you are profient with, a generic light or medium armor and maybe a simple health potion, thats it. For the first few levels you fight some animals who drop nothing except maybe a pelt, some goblins with a generic axe or bow+arrows and maybe some bandits with a leather armor and a sword. Thats it and thats typical for DnD.

A normal game master would never have 3 intellect devourers as first encounter for fresh lv1 char and a group of 4 bandits (2 melee + archer +mage) as second encounter seems quite challenging. OK, to be fair this is a computer RPG where the player can min max his char as much as they want and the player can reload if they die, so a bit more difficulty is OK.
Posted By: Emrikol Re: Random items or memorable ones? - 03/03/20 09:41 PM
I find it interesting and promising, that, unlike so much on these forums, there doesn't seem to be much disagreement on this subject. I know my friends like a lot of loot, but they don't know what's good for them, so they don't count (took me weeks to get them to play DOS2, now it's their "crack").
Posted By: Full Bleed Re: Random items or memorable ones? - 03/03/20 10:39 PM
Originally Posted by Danielbda
I wouldn't mind random magical items if the unique ones all have fixed locations. I really hope they go wild with the magical items, since 5e severely lacks in this department.

I think there is certainly some ground to be given on the underwhelming loot and stinginess inherent in most 5e adventures. But that doesn't mean they have to "go wild" to address the issue. There should be some very fertile middle-ground between the DOS "super-loot" system and the 5e "we've-balanced-the-game-so-much-we-don't-want-to-break-it-with-a+3-weapon" system. You could, literally, give out 10 times as much loot as a typical 5e adventure path in BG3 and still be a small fraction of what DOS1/2 does.

So, in fairness, that's probably close to my number: Up to 10x the loot of a "normal" 5e Adventure Path. I think the integrity of the system can survive that in a video game adaption of 5e. Power is regulated by their Attunement system, and extra stuff just gets sold and can be converted into consumables and/or the occasional rare vendor loot.

Historically, I've been a very lean, low-magic DM for 30+ years. I could fill many pools with the tears of players lamenting their bare cupboards. But when I started playing 5e, I was astounded by how uninspiring (and anemic) most of the loot was. I fully expect Larian to put some more meat on that bone and I suggest that people who have a problem with that steel themselves for the coming bounty. It's a bit unrealistic to go into this game thinking otherwise. I believe that people should understand that the near constant flood of serotonin hits most gamers are used has to be a developer's concern. wink

Also, I would add that random loot charts in D&D is also a time-honored thing. If we're going to lobby for a legit D&D game, and they're going to carry the BG3 name, then we should be fair to Larian when they pursue core elements of the game. There are 8 pages of Random Magic Loot tables in the 5e DMG's guide. There is no reason they can't be using them (or a version thereof.) That isn't to say that every barrel, box, and basket should roll on those tables though... but the ideas of "randomness" *and* "fixed" magic distribution are foundational in every edition of D&D.
Posted By: Full Bleed Re: Random items or memorable ones? - 03/03/20 10:43 PM
Originally Posted by Emrikol
I know my friends like a lot of loot, but they don't know what's good for them, so they don't count

HA! Spoken like a seasoned DM!

Though (and as much as we might hate it at times) we should expect Larian to have a fair bit of that attitude, too. It's one thing to cast our votes. And quite another to stomp around indignant that it's not going to be just what we want.

This thread, so far, is a breath of fresh air. smile
Posted By: Emrikol Re: Random items or memorable ones? - 03/03/20 11:00 PM
Yeah, I definitely do not expect any game to be as stingy with the loot as I would like it (probably because major title has done so and I am cynical at this point). But, like I said earlier in the thread, a loot level option should be easy enough to incorporate.
Posted By: Rlyeh Re: Random items or memorable ones? - 04/03/20 04:35 AM
Originally Posted by Danielbda
I wouldn't mind random magical items if the unique ones all have fixed locations. I really hope they go wild with the magical items, since 5e severely lacks in this department.


Magical items should be rare and meaningful.
Posted By: ChavaiotH Re: Random items or memorable ones? - 04/03/20 06:38 AM
Originally Posted by Madscientist
Nice finding

They should just stick to the DnD rules, no need for random stuff.
D:OS1+2 are good games but I dislike random equipment and inflating numbers.
Slash makes absolutely no sense for weapons that deal pierce damage.
Plus it makes no sense that a regular attack with a generic weapon causes bleed damage at all.

In one image the cuirass is a light armor, then a medium and then a heavy armor, having different AC, weight and price but the same description. ouch

PLEASE USE THE DnD RULES !!!

PS: We need a facepalm smiley

Originally Posted by Madscientist
Originally Posted by Emrikol
It would be nice (and probably very simple) to have an option to select a low loot level. To use DOS2 as an example, perhaps disable all non Unique loot. Also, perhaps fill the loot tables with more craftable components so that instead of getting no 'reward' for a majority of encounters, you can occasionally get pieces to craft something.


Or you could simply use the DnD 5E rules because

- The game is announced as a game based on DnD 5E
- Creating a new system costs time and money that would better be spend elswhere, such as more areas, quests and characters and most importent more bug testing.
Creating a new system will produce bugs and balance problems and then you will need more time and money to fix it.

I am NOT against inventing new mechanics in games, else we would still be playing Pong all day. But a game that is based on an existing system (DnD 5E) is the wrong place to re invent the wheel.



^this

use the dnd 5 edition rules
Posted By: Ellderon Re: Random items or memorable ones? - 04/03/20 10:53 AM
Originally Posted by Gmazca
Originally Posted by Dark_Ansem
Slash?


It looks like Larian wants to make each weapon type have a certain flavor. Bows have "Pin Down," swords have "Slash," etc. Just a way to add a bit of extra style.

However, I don't think a rapier should have "slash" considering it's a piercing weapon lol.


Agreed.
Personally, I think D&D has a lot of flaws.
Weapons reach should have more of an effect. A simple thing would be reach difference giving bonuses/maluses.
fist - reach 0
knife/shortsword - reach 1
shortsword/mace/hammer/axe - reach 3
sword - reach 4
longsword/two-handed axe/mace/ short spear - reach 5
zweihander/spear - reach 6
hlberd/pike - reach 7

A guy with a spear would have a big advantage over a guy with a dagger (6-1 = 5 difference in reach, for a 5 THAC0 penalty), but little to no advantage against a guy with a greatsword (6-6 =0, no bonus or penalty)



Then again, I've been out of the loop for a while, I'm not sure what changed. Maybe something like this is already in.
Posted By: Sordak Re: Random items or memorable ones? - 04/03/20 11:08 AM
>unironically defendign 5e RAW
at this point i cant tell if youre serious or not.
5e RAW is extremley barebones and only the biggest of contrarians call it a good system.

What 5E is is an inoffensive middle ground that several people can agree on.
not an amazing system that needs to be ported over to anything 1:1
Posted By: Madscientist Re: Random items or memorable ones? - 04/03/20 11:24 AM
Originally Posted by Ellderon
Originally Posted by Gmazca
Originally Posted by Dark_Ansem
Slash?


It looks like Larian wants to make each weapon type have a certain flavor. Bows have "Pin Down," swords have "Slash," etc. Just a way to add a bit of extra style.

However, I don't think a rapier should have "slash" considering it's a piercing weapon lol.


Agreed.
Personally, I think D&D has a lot of flaws.
Weapons reach should have more of an effect. A simple thing would be reach difference giving bonuses/maluses.
fist - reach 0
knife/shortsword - reach 1
shortsword/mace/hammer/axe - reach 3
sword - reach 4
longsword/two-handed axe/mace/ short spear - reach 5
zweihander/spear - reach 6
hlberd/pike - reach 7

A guy with a spear would have a big advantage over a guy with a dagger (6-1 = 5 difference in reach, for a 5 THAC0 penalty), but little to no advantage against a guy with a greatsword (6-6 =0, no bonus or penalty)



Then again, I've been out of the loop for a while, I'm not sure what changed. Maybe something like this is already in.


Good idea in theory, but I do not think it would work because:
- Computer RPG are not realistic combat simulations. I think "Die by Sword" tried to simulate realistic combat but I did not get along with the controls.
- If we consider the game as realistic combat simulator (it is not) I would say a fighter with a pike is good in keeping a fighter with a dagger at distance, but when they are very close the guy with the dagger has the advantage.
- If you are interested in this you might look at some roman gladiator fights, e.g. one guy with armor, shield and short sword vs an unarmored guy with spear and net.
Posted By: CyberianK Re: Random items or memorable ones? - 04/03/20 11:57 AM
Originally Posted by Sordak

5e RAW is extremley barebones and only the biggest of contrarians call it a good system.

I call it good at what it wants to be. But yes it is a barebones simple system but that is intentional.

I come from Germany and we got a locally successful RPG that was super complicated (TDE 4.1 edition). Like it had an insanely detailed magic system with countless subsystems that worked completely different like for summoning demons, creating artifacts, each school of magic (elves, witches, druids etc) had own special rules and for combat it tried to model weapon reach advantages from dagger range to pikes or endurance in combat and weapons breaking.
That said I once GMed a combat against a town guard that lasted 14 hours with that system you won't have that problem with D&D.

D&D is neither good for simulating "realistic" medieval combat nor do any of its settings have very well made and described medieval fantasy societies. It is a great system though because of its iconic mechanics & art, richness of its publication history and countless creative options it brings to the table while still being easily approachable for new players.
Posted By: Riandor Re: Random items or memorable ones? - 04/03/20 12:07 PM
On the debate of random vs placed, I would also predominantly prefer placed magical loot, especially for the really cool stuff.

There was a real satisfaction of knowing that if you were insane enough to take on Drizzt Do'Urden in BG1 and WON, you always got some really cool gear and you knew what you were going for. Randomising that would suck (especially as it was an insanely tough fight).

I wouldn't be against randomising magical or non magical loot in chests as long as there were limitations, I .e. if it's a hidden location that contains a ring of +1 Strength, then I don't mind if next time it's an amulet of +1 Dex or something equally of value/power.

I am not a fan in this series of introducing Diablo style loot systems, especially given that combat in a turn based scenario isn't as quick to come by.

I also dislike cheapening shops/vendors to the point of worthlessness. Sure it always happens at some point, but especially at low levels I do not want to be ignoring vendors in the knowledge that my next encounter will likely give me something better than the shop has.

Certain shops and people should have powerful stuff that I want to acquire through wealth, stelath, combat!

So Predominatly placed, a degree of random is ok by me and I am happy for Magical stuff to be rare. Nothing wrong in using a Bastard Sword +1 for several hours, I like my gear to be memorable... You know like, man that Chaim Mail +1 and I got through some tough fights, I will miss it, but hello New Sparkly Magical Armour X.
Posted By: Madscientist Re: Random items or memorable ones? - 04/03/20 12:38 PM
Originally Posted by CyberianK
Originally Posted by Sordak

5e RAW is extremley barebones and only the biggest of contrarians call it a good system.

I call it good at what it wants to be. But yes it is a barebones simple system but that is intentional.

I come from Germany and we got a locally successful RPG that was super complicated (TDE 4.1 edition). Like it had an insanely detailed magic system with countless subsystems that worked completely different like for summoning demons, creating artifacts, each school of magic (elves, witches, druids etc) had own special rules and for combat it tried to model weapon reach advantages from dagger range to pikes or endurance in combat and weapons breaking.
That said I once GMed a combat against a town guard that lasted 14 hours with that system you won't have that problem with D&D.

D&D is neither good for simulating "realistic" medieval combat nor do any of its settings have very well made and described medieval fantasy societies. It is a great system though because of its iconic mechanics & art, richness of its publication history and countless creative options it brings to the table while still being easily approachable for new players.


Yes, I have played Realms of Arcadia trilogy, based on DSA (not sure about the version, the games were from 1991, 1993 and 1995).
They used exactly the PnP rules which meant:
- 80% of spells and skills were useless because they could not be implemented in a computer game at that time, some of them would still be hard to implement today.
- Combat took forever because most attacks miss, get parried or they are absorbed by damage reduction.
- First you had to use one spell to see if an item is magic at all and there was another spell that told you the exact magic effect. Both spells could fail because of low skill or bad dice.
- At level up you had to roll dice to improve a stat or skill. This could fail so in the worst case a new level gave you nothing but a few HP. These points had to be split between HP and MP if the char could cast magic.
- The level up screen came directly after combat was over. No way to save and then press the lv up button. If you dislike the lv up results you have to do the fight again.
- In the first part every party member lost one exp every time you saved the game outside of a temple. You gain exp at a very low rate.

summary:
- It is good that DnD 5E rules are rather simple
- It makes sense to change some things if you adapt a PnP game for computer.
- This does not change the fact that I dislike the D:OS item system. Loot should be relatively rare in general and magic loot should be very rare and hand placed.
Posted By: Gaddy Re: Random items or memorable ones? - 04/03/20 04:09 PM
Originally Posted by Madscientist
@Gaddy: There is no reason why you should find a magic weapon in every 10th or 20th crate.
You're right indeed.


But we are mixing two different issues, random items stats VS random places to find them.
As much as I would prefer to find item *not* in random crates & monsters drops, I really think it's not that important compared to my original point, about the randomness of the items themselves.

And how it's so underwhelming, boring and tedious to have to manage plenty of similar items with random stats ; transforming the joy of rarely finding a great item to an "Excel game" where you spend all your time comparing stats :-(
Posted By: Emrikol Re: Random items or memorable ones? - 04/03/20 04:18 PM
On the subject of finding the exact same item in the exact same place, I don't care for it. It diminishes replays and facilitates powergaming (which the latter, I admit, isn't a really big deal in a solo or small group game like this). Certain areas might be scripted to result in loot, but give a little variety on what can found. As for random places, I think it can do done, but might require some effort to make it not feel ridiculous (e.g you find random magic sword and then a quest is set in motion wherein the son of the warrior who it belonged to is out to reclaim it).

At the very least, do away with the flood of magic items everywhere.
Posted By: Torque Re: Random items or memorable ones? - 04/03/20 04:46 PM
A mix of both. I think DOS1 (non-EE atleast) was random but not completly? Like, there were certain weapons that always dropped (or had a reasonable chance to drop) from bosses. Like, wasnt there a 2-hand axe that had like a 80% chance to drop from the Act 1 boss? Its been a few years now since I played.
Posted By: Tuco Re: Random items or memorable ones? - 04/03/20 07:52 PM
Originally Posted by Emrikol
On the subject of finding the exact same item in the exact same place, I don't care for it. It diminishes replays and facilitates powergaming (which the latter, I admit, isn't a really big deal in a solo or small group game like this). .

The second sentence is exactly why the first is false.
Precisely because of the predictability, people (myself included) LOVED to replay these classics over and over with the full knowledge of where to find the most meaningful items, so they could create their ideal "power setup" and experience the game again with it.

Conversely, in games like D:OS 1 and 2 item drops always feel "WHATEVER, it's random stuff and I won't keep it more than one or two levels anyway".
They are not reliably there so any attempt to theorycraft your "big man build" will be a blind bet, they can drop at any given time (even just checking a random crate or a merchant auto-generated inventory) so big achievements and exploration in general don't feel rewarding enough, etc, etc.
Posted By: Wiborg Sturmfels Re: Random items or memorable ones? - 04/03/20 08:01 PM
Originally Posted by Gaddy
Countless items with random stats and bonus, that forces you to spend all your time in the inventory comparing boring numbers, was my one major issue with DoS 1 & 2 (which apart from that were incredible, <3 Lohse song).
I dreamed so much of the same games but with much less and much more memorable items... yes, exactly like in good old baldur's gate games !


I agree. I want to see this again:

[Linked Image]
Posted By: Maximuuus Re: Random items or memorable ones? - 04/03/20 08:02 PM
If the game is great, you cannot find anything on the first play.
And if the game is great, you don't need the same items each games you are playing...

Random items just sucks, because you never accomplish something, you never have great rewards... because 10 min later you have a better """reward""" after fighting 3 goblins.

Give a gift to your girlfriend 5 times per year and she'll love you.
Give her gifts every 2 days and it's becoming usual and not important.
This is the same.
Posted By: Emrikol Re: Random items or memorable ones? - 04/03/20 08:29 PM
Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by Emrikol
On the subject of finding the exact same item in the exact same place, I don't care for it. It diminishes replays and facilitates powergaming (which the latter, I admit, isn't a really big deal in a solo or small group game like this). .

The second sentence is exactly why the first is false.
Precisely because of the predictability, people (myself included) LOVED to replay these classics over and over with the full knowledge of where to find the most meaningful items, so they could create their ideal "power setup" and experience the game again with it.


Wow. I find that shocking. But okay. That's what you prefer. Doesn't mean I said anything false, though.

Originally Posted by Tuco
Conversely, in games like D:OS 1 and 2 item drops always feel "WHATEVER, it's random stuff and I won't keep it more than one or two levels anyway" ... big achievements and exploration in general don't feel rewarding enough


Agreed.

I don't see any conflict with wanting "big achievements and exploration [to] feel rewarding enough" with having things be a bit random.
Posted By: kungfukappa Re: Random items or memorable ones? - 04/03/20 08:50 PM
All that really matters is that the random +whatever loot is never better than the placed-named loot so that you are never compelled to lose a lore related item to some random drop.
Posted By: Emrikol Re: Random items or memorable ones? - 04/03/20 09:12 PM
What I mean by "random" isn't finding a sword in a barrel. "Random" as in, you slay the dragon, you get good loot. Which items? Well, roll against the tables. If that's not what D&D5e is doing these days, I'd like to know. Ultimately, not a deal breaker either way. You can still get an item that has a history attached to it (e.g Sting).
Posted By: Nobody_Special Re: Random items or memorable ones? - 04/03/20 09:19 PM
I also hope that everything that is good is not buyable in the stores or you have to kill the Mayor to get the Tyr's +3 Vorpal Sword of Truth and Justice.
Posted By: azarhal Re: Random items or memorable ones? - 04/03/20 10:38 PM
Originally Posted by Emrikol
What I mean by "random" isn't finding a sword in a barrel. "Random" as in, you slay the dragon, you get good loot. Which items? Well, roll against the tables. If that's not what D&D5e is doing these days, I'd like to know. Ultimately, not a deal breaker either way. You can still get an item that has a history attached to it (e.g Sting).


5e still have loot tables.

I think people are blowing this random items a bit out of proportions. The Divinity games have unique items that are always on the same character, merchant, hidden place or chest. These usually have a lore description too, although not as long as some of the items in older games. Some even get referenced in books in game or by NPCs.

These game also have a Diablo itemization system and shower you with "magical" gear that are mostly useless, but the gameplay of BG3 have shown none of that and enemies loot looks low level D&D appropriate so far.
Posted By: Nobody_Special Re: Random items or memorable ones? - 05/03/20 12:43 AM
What about the killer boot Swen had in his inventory? silly
Posted By: azarhal Re: Random items or memorable ones? - 05/03/20 01:27 AM
Originally Posted by Nobody_Special
What about the killer boot Swen had in his inventory? silly


Improvised Weapon use 1d4 for damage, the boot hit for 3. rpg007
Posted By: Dark_Ansem Re: Random items or memorable ones? - 05/03/20 01:40 AM
NO RANDOM ITEMS
Posted By: Madscientist Re: Random items or memorable ones? - 05/03/20 08:56 AM
Originally Posted by azarhal
Originally Posted by Emrikol
What I mean by "random" isn't finding a sword in a barrel. "Random" as in, you slay the dragon, you get good loot. Which items? Well, roll against the tables. If that's not what D&D5e is doing these days, I'd like to know. Ultimately, not a deal breaker either way. You can still get an item that has a history attached to it (e.g Sting).


5e still have loot tables.

I think people are blowing this random items a bit out of proportions. The Divinity games have unique items that are always on the same character, merchant, hidden place or chest. These usually have a lore description too, although not as long as some of the items in older games. Some even get referenced in books in game or by NPCs.

These game also have a Diablo itemization system and shower you with "magical" gear that are mostly useless, but the gameplay of BG3 have shown none of that and enemies loot looks low level D&D appropriate so far.


Yes, the D:OS games had unique items . . . and they were completely unimportent because one level later you found something better. I do not remember the name of any such item and often I did not use them because some random stuff was better even at that level.

Lets look at BG2. Very early you can find Lilarcor (greatsword+3, immunity to mind effects) and I usually keep it for large parts of the game. Not 100% sure, but I think the next greatsword+4 you find is in the underdark (except paladin only holy avenger).
Or think of the flail of ages (chance to slow enemy, 3 different types of elemental damage). There was an enemy mage who started combat with all kinds of immunity spells, but he was not immun to all elements. I just hit him all the time for 2 damage and prevented him from casting anything. And its nice to finish trolls without spending resources.

Point is: We remember the items of BG because we know where to find them, what they do and the things we experianced when fighting with them.
We do not remember anything from D:OS because the next orc would drop something better.

I and some other people also like to create characters build around certain items. Here is an example from me from PoE2. This would not be possible in D;OS. There you can only say: Max out stat and skill x, use the random equipment that boosts those stats even more and learn these abilities from books you can find in every shop.
With a complex system like DnD 5E and unique items you can plan interesting characters and even if nobody else cares, you will remember that you backstabbed the overlord of doom with the dagger of deception which you got in the dungeon of darkness by killing the dragon of desaster.
Posted By: anjovis bonus Re: Random items or memorable ones? - 05/03/20 09:16 AM
A mixture of both would be great, plenty of memorable items in set places but make the generic loot random.
Posted By: Sordak Re: Random items or memorable ones? - 05/03/20 09:29 AM
im also in favor of fixed loot.
Tho its absoluteley not true that fixed items in OS2 were bad.
The shield you get from linder Kemms Vault is pretty hard to beat. Voor de aravel stays relevant for quite a while.
SPear of braccus rex and the tyrants set carries you through act 1 pretty niceley.
Posted By: Nobody_Special Re: Random items or memorable ones? - 05/03/20 11:21 AM
Here is one item that is named and is in the same location in BG3

[Linked Image]
Posted By: Ellderon Re: Random items or memorable ones? - 05/03/20 11:53 AM
Originally Posted by Riandor
On the debate of random vs placed, I would also predominantly prefer placed magical loot, especially for the really cool stuff.

There was a real satisfaction of knowing that if you were insane enough to take on Drizzt Do'Urden in BG1 and WON, you always got some really cool gear and you knew what you were going for. Randomising that would suck (especially as it was an insanely tough fight).

I wouldn't be against randomising magical or non magical loot in chests as long as there were limitations, I .e. if it's a hidden location that contains a ring of +1 Strength, then I don't mind if next time it's an amulet of +1 Dex or something equally of value/power.

I am not a fan in this series of introducing Diablo style loot systems, especially given that combat in a turn based scenario isn't as quick to come by.

I also dislike cheapening shops/vendors to the point of worthlessness. Sure it always happens at some point, but especially at low levels I do not want to be ignoring vendors in the knowledge that my next encounter will likely give me something better than the shop has.

Certain shops and people should have powerful stuff that I want to acquire through wealth, stelath, combat!

So Predominatly placed, a degree of random is ok by me and I am happy for Magical stuff to be rare. Nothing wrong in using a Bastard Sword +1 for several hours, I like my gear to be memorable... You know like, man that Chaim Mail +1 and I got through some tough fights, I will miss it, but hello New Sparkly Magical Armour X.



Agreed. I really like small variances in gear, so that you can use what you like longer. Or can upgrade it.

That normal longsword you found early on? Why not being able to take it a smith and pay to have it enchanted? Why not have it grow with you trough deeds (Like Cerra Sumat)?
Posted By: Tuco Re: Random items or memorable ones? - 05/03/20 12:12 PM
Originally Posted by anjovis bonus
A mixture of both would be great, plenty of memorable items in set places but make the generic loot random.

On one hand I personally feel absolutely NO need for "a mixture of the two". I just flat out prefer fixed loot over the randomized one, period.
I prefer even more when the loot isn't level gated (or worse, level scaled) and when the gap between early game and end game is RELATIVELY limited.

That said, it's not like having ANYTHING randomized would be a deal breaker. it would be more or less fine having a baseline of few random COMMON items (i.e. iron sword, basic leather armor, etc) and then to add on top of that system all the unique and hand placed magical items.

Still, the ideal scenario would be to have every single loot table in the game fixed and every item being where it is for some reason.

So we could finally avoid bullshit like slaining beasts and finding coins, minerals or weapons in their bellies.
Or searching into some commoner house and finding gems, powerful magic weapons, rare alchemical reagents.
Or exploring ruins lost for centuries and finding inside them books about the recent political issues of the region, etc, etc, etc.

There's literally NO drawback in having customized, hand-crafted loot tables in terms of gameplay. Except that someone has to do the work to fill them.
Posted By: anjovis bonus Re: Random items or memorable ones? - 05/03/20 12:18 PM
Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by anjovis bonus
A mixture of both would be great, plenty of memorable items in set places but make the generic loot random.

On one hand I personally feel absolutely NO need for "a mixture of the two". I just flat out prefer fixed loot over the randomized one, period.
I prefer even more when the loot isn't level gated (or worse, level scaled) and when the gap between early game and end game is RELATIVELY limited.

That said, it's not like having ANYTHING randomized would be a deal breaker. it would be more or less fine having a baseline of few random COMMON items (i.e. iron sword, basic leather armor, etc) and then to add on top of that system all the unique and hand placed magical items.

Still, the ideal scenario would be to have every single loot table in the game fixed and every item being where it is for some reason.

So we could finally avoid bullshit like slaining beasts and finding coins, minerals or weapons in their bellies.
Or searching into some commoner house and finding gems, powerful magic weapons, rare alchemical reagents.
Or exploring ruins lost for centuries and finding inside them books about the recent political issues of the region, etc, etc, etc.

There's literally NO drawback in having customized loot tables, except that someone has to do the work to fill them.


Some randomization would be cool, but yeah the loot should always be relevant to the situation. What I mean is, you might find a +1 weapon on a generic enemy now and then, maybe a flaming sword or some fire arrows or whatever. Not totally random, just instead of like De'Arnise keep in BG2 where there were convenient fire arrows on every box and shelf, you could find them randomly on enemies near the keep. Just small things like that. What I also liked about Bg2 as opposed to most other RPG's is that magic weapons had uses despite not maybe being the most powerful item. That made unique items more unique, you had a reason to save them for certain enemies instead of just choosing the weapon with the most + value and selling everything else.
Posted By: Emrikol Re: Random items or memorable ones? - 05/03/20 03:41 PM
Originally Posted by Madscientist
Point is: We remember the items of BG because we know where to find them, what they do and the things we experianced when fighting with them.
We do not remember anything from D:OS because the next orc would drop something better.


Totally agree. But, I don't think not having fixed loot contradicts this.

I guess I take my cue from old D&D sessions (DM made, not modules you bought). You just never knew what you would find. For me, that's part of the exportation element of an RPG
Posted By: Schuesseled Re: Random items or memorable ones? - 05/03/20 09:04 PM
I like the weapon skills, makes the physical damage dealers a little more interactive. As long as it doesn't go overboard.
Posted By: Emrikol Re: Random items or memorable ones? - 05/03/20 10:06 PM
I still think having a toggle for low loot is the most pragmatic option. If loot is made sparse, there will be complaints, just as there complaints for loot being too abundant.

Having modded DOS2, and being familiar with how it is laid out under the hood, it is such an easy thing to do. I wouldn't be opposed to modding BG3 if needed, but not from the outset for fear of spoiling or ruining something
Posted By: Firesong Re: Random items or memorable ones? - 05/03/20 10:09 PM
Memorable ones. And without "levels" on items.

I never got to use the sword which you can only reach with the teleport / some other movement spell in Fort Joy, because it was already outlevelled every time I got there. It would've been great to find great items which are really unique and which we could use from the moment of finding / acquiring them until the end.

The only item with this properties in the whole game of D:OS2 is the magic wand which the unfriendly dude in Driftwood sells. There could be so many more.
Posted By: Emrikol Re: Random items or memorable ones? - 12/03/20 08:11 PM
From the Reddit AMA:

Can you tell us anything about itemization? Will magical items be scarce, or will there be a lot to find?

Quote
Not like in Original Sin. BG is a different type of game when it comes to loot and item fever. We still want to make treasure exciting, though, and that means a lot of manual work.Treasure has to make sense in the context, and that means hand-placing and hand-creating it. There will be equipment with magical bonuses, but not many - they’ll feel special, and they'll be tailor made.
Posted By: Eguzky Re: Random items or memorable ones? - 12/03/20 08:28 PM
I'm all for random items, known special items, or even item making/enchanting.

I'd kill to be able to make a ring & enchant it to my strengths. ..sadly, D&D item enchanting does not work quite that way. ;.;
Posted By: Emrikol Re: Random items or memorable ones? - 12/03/20 08:33 PM
I'm at least glad to learn that there "will be equipment with magical bonuses, but not many."
Posted By: Madscientist Re: Random items or memorable ones? - 12/03/20 08:57 PM
Originally Posted by Emrikol
From the Reddit AMA:

Can you tell us anything about itemization? Will magical items be scarce, or will there be a lot to find?

Quote
Not like in Original Sin. BG is a different type of game when it comes to loot and item fever. We still want to make treasure exciting, though, and that means a lot of manual work.Treasure has to make sense in the context, and that means hand-placing and hand-creating it. There will be equipment with magical bonuses, but not many - they’ll feel special, and they'll be tailor made.


cheer YEAH cheer

My main problem with D:OS2 seems to be gone.
I am permanently flooded with totally random stuff, it has a level and the numbers go up like crazy with every level.
Posted By: Gaddy Re: Random items or memorable ones? - 12/03/20 09:46 PM
Such a great news!!

A huge thanks @Emrikol for finding this answer
Posted By: Emrikol Re: Random items or memorable ones? - 12/03/20 11:22 PM
More from Swen:



Quote
How are magical items going to be handled? Are they going to be set pieces that the player stumbles upon or colour coded RNG drops or something in between? Will loot rarity and attunement limits be per P&P?

Quote
They are set pieces. We are not doing generated loot.
Posted By: Maximuuus Re: Random items or memorable ones? - 12/03/20 11:32 PM
It looks they choose the best way about that.
Posted By: Tuco Re: Random items or memorable ones? - 12/03/20 11:39 PM
We won, at least on paper.
Now we just have to wait and see if they can actually match these (lovely) publicly stated design goals.
Posted By: Wormerine Re: Random items or memorable ones? - 12/03/20 11:58 PM
Loot is one of my bigger issues with D:OS2 - to much inventory management, too little fun. That's one of the improvements I am looking forward to the most.
Posted By: Gaddy Re: Random items or memorable ones? - 13/03/20 09:13 AM
A Divinity game with memorable items... this game is now my most desired one. Now if it could get a bit of the feeling & epicness of the old baldur's gate games, and some interesting characters stories & romances, that could become the perfect rpg.
Posted By: Mikus Re: Random items or memorable ones? - 16/03/20 11:13 AM
For the love of all that's holy, if Larian persists with BG3 in their bizarre insistence a la DOS:1 and especially DOS:2 in relying on randomized loot stats/randomized loot instead of proper Infinity Engine loot with fixed stats (ideally also with an emphasis on hand-placed loot), I'll have to fix the game with a mod, or not play it at all. The ridiculous and completely unbalanced loot stat progression that encourages unbelievably tedious save scumming and vendor camping in DOS:2 - made even worse by its inexplicable combination with a game design that features a fixed total number of encounters and railroaded level paths on the maps - is making DOS:2 Definitive almost unplayable for me. (Just one DOS:2 topic that discusses these crippling issues, as valid today for DOS:2 Definitive as it was when it was posted, can be found at http://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=619480).

Larian, please tell me you've come to your senses when it comes to single-player CRPG design. NO. MORE. LOOT. RNG. Thank you. smile

Originally Posted by Madscientist
From the Reddit AMA:

Can you tell us anything about itemization? Will magical items be scarce, or will there be a lot to find?

Quote
Not like in Original Sin. BG is a different type of game when it comes to loot and item fever. We still want to make treasure exciting, though, and that means a lot of manual work.Treasure has to make sense in the context, and that means hand-placing and hand-creating it. There will be equipment with magical bonuses, but not many - they’ll feel special, and they'll be tailor made.


I'm holding you to this, Larian! mad laugh
Posted By: Tuco Re: Random items or memorable ones? - 16/03/20 11:18 AM
Originally Posted by Mikus
For the love of all that's holy, if Larian persists with BG3 in their bizarre insistence a la DOS:1 and especially DOS:2 in relying on randomized loot stats/randomized loot instead of proper Infinity Engine loot with fixed stats (ideally also with an emphasis on hand-placed loot), I'll have to fix the game with a mod, or not play it at all. The ridiculous and completely unbalanced loot stat progression that encourages unbelievably tedious save scumming and vendor camping in DOS:2 - made even worse by its inexplicable combination with a game design that features a fixed total number of encounters and railroaded level paths on the maps - is making DOS:2 Definitive almost unplayable for me. (Just one DOS:2 topic that discusses these crippling issues, as valid today for DOS:2 Definitive as it was when it was posted, can be found at http://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=619480).

Larian, please tell me you've come to your senses when it comes to single-player CRPG design. NO. MORE. LOOT. RNG. Thank you. smile

Did you miss the fact that they ALREADY confirmed they won't?
Which is exactly what we were talking about in the last replies of this thread, by the way.
Posted By: Mikus Re: Random items or memorable ones? - 16/03/20 11:19 AM
Originally Posted by Tuco

Did you miss the fact that they ALREADY confirmed they won't?
Which is exactly what we were talking about in the last replies of this thread, by the way.


Nope. See my post. Hoping they don't change their minds, because BG3 is a way off yet, and the randomized loot stuff has been a scourge of Larian games for quite some time.
Posted By: TadasGa Re: Random items or memorable ones? - 16/03/20 12:19 PM
+1 for non randomized loot. I loved planning my characters arround what weapons they will use, I loved adventure of seeking them and felt satisfied when I got them. In DOS 2 I started to resent leveling up just because of how tedious loot was. Because of high scaling every time I leveled up I felt "strongly encouraged" to go to vendors and at minimum find new weapons for melee/archers and replace every item slot that felt 3-4 levels behind. Loot felt so generic, just a stat stick. Oh I got a unique, oops I came to area a bit overleveled and now this item is useless. I found DOS 2 loot system the most tedious part of otherwise great game.

Edit: oh they confirmed it. Nice.
Posted By: BeNexus Re: Random items or memorable ones? - 16/03/20 12:33 PM
I mean, I think the weapons having skills compensates for something that you can't really do in a video game as easily but many DMs do in actual play which is stuff like a called shot- "I want to pin this enemy's foot to the floor." "Okay, that'll be a higher AC for a called shot, and drop down a die less damage since you're not going for a fatal shot."
Posted By: Ellderon Re: Random items or memorable ones? - 17/03/20 08:28 AM
Originally Posted by Firesong
Memorable ones. And without "levels" on items.


THIS
A bajillion times this.

If I see "you have to be level X to use this item" I'm going to firebomb Larians HQ.
Posted By: Sordak Re: Random items or memorable ones? - 17/03/20 09:06 AM
dnd doesnt have this so what are you people freaking out about.
We know this isnt gonna be the case so how about you stop shouting that the sky is falling
Posted By: alexawow2006 Re: Random items or memorable ones? - 09/10/20 03:46 PM
I agree, randomize sausagies and potatoes, KEEP REAL ITEMS IN SAME PLACES, the divinity loot system was absolute trash, fk i would rather farm world of warcraft items cuz i would use them for longer perioud of time than in DOS2 !!
Posted By: Takamori Re: Random items or memorable ones? - 09/10/20 05:27 PM
Random items are pure... doo doo
Lets use D&D rules please.
Posted By: Sarevok Re: Random items or memorable ones? - 09/10/20 07:37 PM
1) it seems like they are being faithful to D&D and sticking with a mix of deliberate *big* loot (eg..Firekreig always drops Carosmyr in BG2), and randomized lesser loot among less important encounters. I am curious about how the shops are stocked, however, it seems like the loot in them is more or less fixed.

2) The more important distinction to make with Divinity is loot level. Utilizing D&D itemization will mostly eliminate this by default (using Carosmyr as an example, a +5 Holy Greatsword is just as good at level 23 in ToB, as it was when you first got it at level 12-15. With a very few exceptions, Loot in Divinity is traded in every level by merchants restocking their wares with higher level gear. I specifically remember doing a quest and getting the Holy Sword of Flame in DoS1, and if it wasn't too weak to bother with when I got it, it was replaced after a level or two for sure.

3) In my opinion, randomized loot that is specifically scaled by level doesn't make much sense outside of an MMO or Diablo type game, but even then, the real progression doesn't start in those type of games until you are max level, so the outleveling gear kind of becomes a moot point.
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