Larian Studios
Posted By: Tzelanit Alignment? - 27/09/20 05:35 AM
I've been kinda priding myself on being very much "in-the-know" with all of this BG3 information, but the one thing that I can't recall stumbling across is the implementation of alignments.
Did I miss a post or some news about whether or not they'll be available in the game at all, or in Early Access? I'd love a link if one's available.

Also, side-note: I took WOTC's Alignment Test on a few separate days to gauge a more accurate result not based on answers influenced by my mood in that moment, and I'm shocked that I consistently came back as Chaotic Evil. Maybe I'm so self-interested and defiant that I've managed to deceive myself into the idea that I'm a decent person? I'm actually somewhat devastated by this outcome, lol. Can anyone recommend a comprehensive questionnaire to determine my alignment? I'd like a second opinion. eek
Posted By: Warlocke Re: Alignment? - 27/09/20 06:21 AM
Larian said that WotC actually asked them to diminish the presence of alignment in BG3. Unless something has changed, you won’t pick an alignment in character creation.
Posted By: Commodore_Tyrs Re: Alignment? - 27/09/20 07:24 AM
WHAT!!???? D&D without alignment?

That's like Abbott without Costello.

[Linked Image]
Posted By: Warlocke Re: Alignment? - 27/09/20 08:35 AM
Actually, come to think of it none of the DMs I play with ever mention alignment at all, and I certainly don’t demand players select one. So this is actually more like table top for me.
Posted By: Nyanko Re: Alignment? - 27/09/20 10:34 AM
"The alignment is more like guidelines than actual rules".
Posted By: LoneSky Re: Alignment? - 27/09/20 12:46 PM
If you want a good test, do this here for free: https://www.16personalities.com/

My short version is
Maximum good = compassion & sacrifice > Good = understanding & sympathy > Neutral = there is no neutral > Evil = indiference & lack of empathy > Greatest Evil = hate & hurting others
Posted By: Stabbey Re: Alignment? - 27/09/20 12:49 PM
No rigid alignment displayed on the character page does not mean that your actions no longer matter or that characters don't have personality. Companions and other NPC characters still have preferences, and they'll still react to your choices, either favorably or unfavorably.

It means that you can role-play your character instead of role-playing one of nine boxes. If dialogue options are tagged with alignment flags, many people would feel more obliged to pick the one which matched the box they put their character in, even if they would prefer to pick a different option. This would be especially bad for "Neutral" alignments which would feel more strongly a need to ping-pong between different ones.
Posted By: LoneSky Re: Alignment? - 27/09/20 01:12 PM
Also this "Online Alignment Test" is very stupid at https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd%2Fdnd%2F20001222b

"Family elders are expressing disapproval of you to the rest of the family. Do you:

Accept the criticism and change your ways
Seek a compromise with the elders
Besmirch the reputation of the elders as you ignore their scorn
Silence the elders any way you can"

You just have to assume that the "family elders" are right, but that's very mindless position to have in life: instead always question everything, don't just follow blindly, because nobody knows everything, our "wisdom" is partial, incomplete, and ast times wrong, even in basic things.

But let's assume somehow that those "family elders" are somehow perfect and their wisdom is endless and eternal (because if they aren't then obviously they should just shut the f*k up), and still we get tho this question:
"If your family had arranged your marriage to someone loathsome, would you:"
Now that's it. Burn them with fire!!

Now really, who wrote all that stupidity? I pray to every god that those people will never be writers in a game, that's just unbelievable low level of being wrong. Never think about being evil after a test like that.

You would be really evil if you didn't stood up and fought them back. Never copy the stupidity of your ancestors, that's why we still have wars and hate each other, instead living in harmony. Humanity needs to grow up, this gone too far.


Posted By: vometia Re: Alignment? - 27/09/20 01:14 PM
Originally Posted by Tzelanit
Also, side-note: I took WOTC's Alignment Test

I just tried that, half and half in the guise of a prospective character and just being myself, and was quite disappointed that, in spite of some presumptuously "edgy" answers, I got "lawful good". I'd hoped for "chaotic hungover" or something.

Oh well, if BG3 isn't sticking rigidly to alignments I can do that anyway.
Posted By: vometia Re: Alignment? - 27/09/20 01:18 PM
Originally Posted by LoneSky
If you want a good test, do this here for free: https://www.16personalities.com/

My short version is
Maximum good = compassion & sacrifice > Good = understanding & sympathy > Neutral = there is no neutral > Evil = indiference & lack of empathy > Greatest Evil = hate & hurting others

16 of them? Not Myers-Briggs, by any chance...? AFAIR it's not "proper science" (well, if anything is when it comes to psychology) but kinda fun as long as it's not taken too seriously. IIRC I'm INFP (or is it INTJ?) which means, er... "chaotic hungover", I think.
Posted By: Tzelanit Re: Alignment? - 27/09/20 01:21 PM
Originally Posted by LoneSky
If you want a good test, do this here for free: https://www.16personalities.com/

My short version is
Maximum good = compassion & sacrifice > Good = understanding & sympathy > Neutral = there is no neutral > Evil = indiference & lack of empathy > Greatest Evil = hate & hurting others


I took that one a while ago and this is where I landed:
https://imgur.com/a/dBXEt1u

That's why I guess I'm shocked that the WOTC system has me listed as an equivalent to mindless demons, lol.
Posted By: LoneSky Re: Alignment? - 27/09/20 01:29 PM
I just mean those for fun, sometimes helpful as well, few good advices there but they have a support forum for those willing to change & improve (I guess people with problems, it's explained there on site, don't remember which university related).

I just do it for fun and give to friends so we can have a good laugh, but can be useful as well, just don't take the results very seriously (there is always hope, even if you get "bad" results, life goes on and can be better, always)
Posted By: vometia Re: Alignment? - 27/09/20 01:36 PM
Originally Posted by Tzelanit
I took that one a while ago and this is where I landed:
https://imgur.com/a/dBXEt1u

That's why I guess I'm shocked that the WOTC system has me listed as an equivalent to mindless demons, lol.

You got the same as me (which it transpires is the same result I got when I took it many years ago) yet WOTC's result was apparently the opposite of yours, curiously.

Originally Posted by LoneSky
I just mean those for fun [snippety]

Oh yeah, fun/useful is fine, just avoid paying money for anything based on this stuff! "Personality test" often sets off alarm bells: the fun stuff should really have no bad outcome, just something amusing and maybe thought-provoking.
Posted By: LoneSky Re: Alignment? - 27/09/20 01:52 PM
I still got "Lawful Good" at D&D Online Alignment Test, but didn't like many answers at all, so had to pick a lesser one, just because there wasn't anything better.
That test assumes that the world is perfect and we don't have to make it better, just obey the law and be a nice "sheep". That's not true, not even in fairy land, sadly.

I got this at 16 test, https://www.16personalities.com/enfj-personality
That's fairly accurate, about 75% true.
I love to moderate, not on forums though smile just a peacekeeper or peacemaker rather, and I easily fall in love with everyone (not literally), because almost everyone can be turned into a being of light. Surroundings and circumstances really mold us into what we are, and very few are strong and brave enough to not just follow the easy way and blend in, but do what is right, being convinced that is worth living that way and that is the only way; and they are those who can help others to find the way out from every little nightmare that make our life a hell.
Who we are it is up to us, and it's always good to look in the "mirror" (the people next to us, and then the world around us) and make a few changes. We can do better, and we will in time. Every little bit helps, nothing is wasted. And if here, this is a very fun speech from Admiral McRaven https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HY8nDp5Fn0
Posted By: vometia Re: Alignment? - 27/09/20 02:06 PM
Originally Posted by LoneSky
I still got "Lawful Good" at D&D Online Alignment Test, but didn't like many answers at all, so had to pick a lesser one, just because there wasn't anything better.
That test assumes that the world is perfect and we don't have to make it better, just obey the law and be a nice "sheep". That's not true, not even in fairy land, sadly.

Yeah, that's why I had to get into a potential character's guise for some of the questions as real-world answers would've skewed the results: they were looking for an ideal, not actual life experience. As ever, context is everything.
Posted By: Argyle Re: Alignment? - 27/09/20 02:42 PM
I'd declare my alignment based on the landscape of the plane in which I want my PC's soul to reside after death. Pandemonium seems most unpleasant, for example, but kayaking on the lakes of Lunia, or hiking through the forests of the Happy Hunting Grounds are things I would love to do. Hopefully they will let me in, when the time comes.
Posted By: vometia Re: Alignment? - 27/09/20 03:25 PM
Originally Posted by LoneSky
I got this at 16 test, https://www.16personalities.com/enfj-personality
That's fairly accurate, about 75% true.
I love to moderate, not on forums though smile just a peacekeeper or peacemaker rather, and I easily fall in love with everyone (not literally), because almost everyone can be turned into a being of light. Surroundings and circumstances really mold us into what we are, and very few are strong and brave enough to not just follow the easy way and blend in, but do what is right, being convinced that is worth living that way and that is the only way; and they are those who can help others to find the way out from every little nightmare that make our life a hell.
Who we are it is up to us, and it's always good to look in the "mirror" (the people next to us, and then the world around us) and make a few changes. We can do better, and we will in time. Every little bit helps, nothing is wasted. And if here, this is a very fun speech from Admiral McRaven https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HY8nDp5Fn0

Hmm, in theory ENFJ seems quite a way away from INFP, but perhaps that's symptomatic of the fallibility of Myers-Briggs. What it seems to have in common is the predisposition to be a diplomat; by which I mean in intent rather than effectiveness, at least in my case! I've noticed it's often a thankless task but I'll do it anyway (no reference to forum moderation, more of a RL observation). Someone has to, I suppose.

Aaaaaaaanyway. I hope BG3 adapts to the way any given player plays any given character. Most RPGs are at least okay with that but a few blithely assume they know better than you what your direction is going to be. Which seems to remove the "RP" element of the game.
Posted By: KillerRabbit Re: Alignment? - 27/09/20 04:59 PM
I always get Chaotic Good on those tests. Down with the king! He deserved far worse than the poison I slipped in his chalice . . .

And @Commodore_Tyrs got it right. D&D without alignment is Abbot with Costello, berries without cream. It's just something other than D&D. And yeah, I know this this coming from WotC but, well, they are rong. Rong! They tried to eliminate alignment in 4th ed and were forced to bring it back due to pressure from fans.

The tension in Keldorn's story doesn't make sense without alignment. When his wife has an affair Keldorn doesn't have a Lawful Good response. He is forced to choose between Lawful Neutral / Lawful Evil response of taking his wife to courts and letting her be hanged for her crime or the the Neutral / Chaotic Good path of first seeking vengeance and finding his way to self reflection, forgiveness and gratitude. For a neutral good character there's no tension at all but for someone whose spiritual powers and very identity hinge on upholding both the Law and the Good this is true dilemma -- he is forced to choose between one or the other. May Torm forgive him his choice.

And "no alignment" is just a trend right now -- Game of Thrones has more of a pull on people's imagination than does the Fellowship of the Ring and/or the Elric Saga. But but D&D wasn't built on the ideology of realpolitik -- it's its own thing with its own history.

I'm excited to play the game but I plan on letting Larian and WotC know that they need to include alignment in the final release.
Posted By: qhristoff Re: Alignment? - 27/09/20 05:32 PM
I've always played Neutral Good or Neutral Evil. I am, at heart, pragmatic, but the idea of True Neutral is too regimented, and Chaotic and Lawful neutrals are just boring stereotypes. If I feel like generally caring about things, Neutral Good. If I feel like generally not caring about things, Neutral Evil.
Posted By: Tzelanit Re: Alignment? - 27/09/20 05:39 PM
Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
I always get Chaotic Good on those tests. Down with the king! He deserved far worse than the poison I slipped in his chalice . . .

And @Commodore_Tyrs got it right. D&D without alignment is Abbot with Costello, berries without cream. It's just something other than D&D. And yeah, I know this this coming from WotC but, well, they are rong. Rong! They tried to eliminate alignment in 4th ed and were forced to bring it back due to pressure from fans.

The tension in Keldorn's story doesn't make sense without alignment. When his wife has an affair Keldorn doesn't have a Lawful Good response. He is forced to choose between Lawful Neutral / Lawful Evil response of taking his wife to courts and letting her be hanged for her crime or the the Neutral / Chaotic Good path of first seeking vengeance and finding his way to self reflection, forgiveness and gratitude. For a neutral good character there's no tension at all but for someone whose spiritual powers and very identity hinge on upholding both the Law and the Good this is true dilemma -- he is forced to choose between one or the other. May Torm forgive him his choice.

And "no alignment" is just a trend right now -- Game of Thrones has more of a pull on people's imagination than does the Fellowship of the Ring and/or the Elric Saga. But but D&D wasn't built on the ideology of realpolitik -- it's its own thing with its own history.

I'm excited to play the game but I plan on letting Larian and WotC know that they need to include alignment in the final release.


I don't even necessarily need it overtly placed with big brackets next to dialog choices. I really do like walking down specific paths and generally, dialog choices in games either don't have the variety necessary to make alignments work properly, or the interpretation of an alignment is just off entirely. I'm hoping for some nuance that has a discernible impact.
Posted By: Warlocke Re: Alignment? - 27/09/20 05:52 PM
Originally Posted by Tzelanit
Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
I always get Chaotic Good on those tests. Down with the king! He deserved far worse than the poison I slipped in his chalice . . .

And @Commodore_Tyrs got it right. D&D without alignment is Abbot with Costello, berries without cream. It's just something other than D&D. And yeah, I know this this coming from WotC but, well, they are rong. Rong! They tried to eliminate alignment in 4th ed and were forced to bring it back due to pressure from fans.

The tension in Keldorn's story doesn't make sense without alignment. When his wife has an affair Keldorn doesn't have a Lawful Good response. He is forced to choose between Lawful Neutral / Lawful Evil response of taking his wife to courts and letting her be hanged for her crime or the the Neutral / Chaotic Good path of first seeking vengeance and finding his way to self reflection, forgiveness and gratitude. For a neutral good character there's no tension at all but for someone whose spiritual powers and very identity hinge on upholding both the Law and the Good this is true dilemma -- he is forced to choose between one or the other. May Torm forgive him his choice.

And "no alignment" is just a trend right now -- Game of Thrones has more of a pull on people's imagination than does the Fellowship of the Ring and/or the Elric Saga. But but D&D wasn't built on the ideology of realpolitik -- it's its own thing with its own history.

I'm excited to play the game but I plan on letting Larian and WotC know that they need to include alignment in the final release.


I don't even necessarily need it overtly placed with big brackets next to dialog choices. I really do like walking down specific paths and generally, dialog choices in games either don't have the variety necessary to make alignments work properly, or the interpretation of an alignment is just off entirely. I'm hoping for some nuance that has a discernible impact.


Well luckily for you, that was exactly Swen’s answer. When asked about alignments he said WotC had asked him to diminish their presence, but that they would be included inconspicuously via the large array of dialogue options.
Posted By: Apocynum Re: Alignment? - 28/09/20 06:43 PM
Originally Posted by LoneSky

"Family elders are expressing disapproval of you to the rest of the family. Do you:

Accept the criticism and change your ways
Seek a compromise with the elders
Besmirch the reputation of the elders as you ignore their scorn
Silence the elders any way you can"


It might be a crude test, but this question is transparently asking about the law/chaos axis. A respected, traditional authority disagrees with you. Do you:

A.) Bow to authority? (Lawful)
B.) Seek compromise with authority? (Neutral)
C.) Reject authority? (Chaotic)
D.) Murder authority because you disagree? (Chaotic Evil)

Pretty straightforward.
Posted By: Tzelanit Re: Alignment? - 28/09/20 07:55 PM
Originally Posted by Apocynum
Originally Posted by LoneSky

"Family elders are expressing disapproval of you to the rest of the family. Do you:

Accept the criticism and change your ways
Seek a compromise with the elders
Besmirch the reputation of the elders as you ignore their scorn
Silence the elders any way you can"


It might be a crude test, but this question is transparently asking about the law/chaos axis. A respected, traditional authority disagrees with you. Do you:

A.) Bow to authority? (Lawful)
B.) Seek compromise with authority? (Neutral)
C.) Reject authority? (Chaotic)
D.) Murder authority because you disagree? (Chaotic Evil)

Pretty straightforward.


That's essentially how I had to think about the whole test. Strip it down to make it as relevant as possible and then apply it. Still gooped that I'm Chaotic Evil though, lol.
Posted By: KillerRabbit Re: Alignment? - 29/09/20 01:29 AM
Try again asking yourself "what would Robin Hood do". You don't just want to take down the authorities, you want to take their gold and give it to the poor.
Posted By: Tzelanit Re: Alignment? - 29/09/20 03:10 AM
Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
Try again asking yourself "what would Robin Hood do". You don't just want to take down the authorities, you want to take their gold and give it to the poor.


I've always thought of Robin Hood as Chaotic Good.
Wouldn't Chaotic Evil be closer to The Joker, or Loki?
Posted By: KillerRabbit Re: Alignment? - 29/09/20 05:00 AM
Yeah, the joker would be chaotic evil as would Marvel Loki. (old myth Loki being Chaotic Neutral)

My mistake, I though you were trying to get a different result.
Posted By: Tzelanit Re: Alignment? - 29/09/20 05:18 AM
Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
Yeah, the joker would be chaotic evil as would Marvel Loki. (old myth Loki being Chaotic Neutral)

My mistake, I though you were trying to get a different result.


You're not entirely wrong. I was hoping for a different result because I don't really think that I'm similar to either of those examples of Chaotic Evil, but that's what the WOTC test has consistently brought back as a result.
Honestly, I wasn't hoping for any specific alignment in particular, I just wasn't expecting that. eek
Posted By: LoneSky Re: Alignment? - 29/09/20 02:16 PM
Originally Posted by Apocynum
Originally Posted by LoneSky

"Family elders are expressing disapproval of you to the rest of the family. Do you:

Accept the criticism and change your ways
Seek a compromise with the elders
Besmirch the reputation of the elders as you ignore their scorn
Silence the elders any way you can"


It might be a crude test, but this question is transparently asking about the law/chaos axis. A respected, traditional authority disagrees with you. Do you:

A.) Bow to authority? (Lawful)
B.) Seek compromise with authority? (Neutral)
C.) Reject authority? (Chaotic)
D.) Murder authority because you disagree? (Chaotic Evil)

Pretty straightforward.


It's nothing but straightforward though in my humble opinion. I wish it was. I will approach this as someone who wants to do what is right, what is good, and that is very much relative in itself, because until we can see the full results of our actions, we can't know if our choice was good. So I "try" to be good, can't do more - but let's just consider it that for this test I aim to be "good" (as in as good as possible)
Family elders can be right but also can be just as wrong, and thus the conclusions depend on that vital part that isn't specified.

1. if they are right: your reactions can be rated as you listed above

2. if they are wrong however;
Accept the criticism and change your ways
> you are a sheep if you do this, stand up and do what is right instead
Seek a compromise with the elders
> this more likely, but again depends on what is this about, can allow a compromise or must defy them, because doing what is right it's above everything else
Besmirch the reputation of the elders as you ignore their scorn
> never do this obviously, even if they wrong, but help them instead correct that wrong, if possible
Silence the elders any way you can
> same as previous

Same for the rest, must be made clear if the that law is good, that king is right and so on -- because obeying a bad law doesn't make you lawful, there are just bad words for that, and you can't be good if you are part of that greater evil that is corrupt authority, bad laws and rotten elderly traditions; the source of everything wrong in a society that just follows blindly.


Posted By: Argyle Re: Alignment? - 29/09/20 02:53 PM
Context is definitely an important aspect for all this stuff. Take the old story of Jack and Beanstalk, for example. Jack is the hero of the story, but is his behavior ever "good" at any point?
Posted By: Apocynum Re: Alignment? - 29/09/20 07:02 PM
Originally Posted by LoneSky

Same for the rest, must be made clear if the that law is good, that king is right and so on -- because obeying a bad law doesn't make you lawful, there are just bad words for that, and you can't be good if you are part of that greater evil that is corrupt authority, bad laws and rotten elderly traditions; the source of everything wrong in a society that just follows blindly.


For the question under discussion, I’m pretty sure that the quiz writers are trying to address the law/chaos axis while divorcing it from the good/evil axis (with the exception of the last answer, “do a murder,” which is chaotic evil). Your mileage may vary on how successful they were. It is, after all, an internet multiple-choice personality quiz. Subtle philosophical discussion isn’t a strength of the medium.

In the broadest, crudest possible sense, “obeying laws and authority” is lawful; “helping other people” is good. But here we arrive at one of the key flaws of the DnD two-axis alignment system: When the law obligates evil acts, what’s a lawful good character to do? Different editions have posed different answers; different players have interpreted those answers in different ways. It’s part of why alignment threads all over the internet have gone up in flame wars.


(Funnily enough, the earliest version of DnD only had a one-axis, three-point system of alignment: you could serve Law, Chaos, or Neutrality, with no Good or Evil to be seen. This is obviously cribbed off of Michael Moorcock, whose books involved a cosmic balance between Law and Chaos, and who tried, though not always successfully, to divorce those concepts from the easier binary of good versus evil.

And then the audience for DnD decided they liked the easy binary of good and evil, so ADnD put that in as the second axis, where it quickly eclipsed the law/chaos axis in cosmic importance. Funny how things work out, isn’t it.)
Posted By: Argyle Re: Alignment? - 29/09/20 07:25 PM
Originally Posted by Apocynum
[quote=LoneSky]


(Funnily enough, the earliest version of DnD only had a one-axis, three-point system of alignment: you could serve Law, Chaos, or Neutrality, with no Good or Evil to be seen. This is obviously cribbed off of Michael Moorcock, whose books involved a cosmic balance between Law and Chaos, and who tried, though not always successfully, to divorce those concepts from the easier binary of good versus evil.


This is very true. It is also possible that these concepts are much older than Moorcock ... Maat vs. Isfet.
Check out Robert Plant's symbol on Led Zeppelin's fourth album.
Posted By: Tzelanit Re: Alignment? - 29/09/20 07:26 PM
Originally Posted by Apocynum
Originally Posted by LoneSky

Same for the rest, must be made clear if the that law is good, that king is right and so on -- because obeying a bad law doesn't make you lawful, there are just bad words for that, and you can't be good if you are part of that greater evil that is corrupt authority, bad laws and rotten elderly traditions; the source of everything wrong in a society that just follows blindly.


For the question under discussion, I’m pretty sure that the quiz writers are trying to address the law/chaos axis while divorcing it from the good/evil axis (with the exception of the last answer, “do a murder,” which is chaotic evil). Your mileage may vary on how successful they were. It is, after all, an internet multiple-choice personality quiz. Subtle philosophical discussion isn’t a strength of the medium.


Normally I'd agree with this take about the integrity of online quizzes in general, but as this was the official WOTC alignment quiz, I guess I was expecting a bit more depth or nuance. It's hard to argue the results when they quite literally made the rules, even if the quiz wasn't written particularly well.
Posted By: Llengrath Re: Alignment? - 29/09/20 07:26 PM
There is another aspect to alignment that nobody here seems to be talking much about - it's historically always been an important part of the Forgotten Realms/D&D lore.

Alignment isn't just a label you slap on your character during character creation - it's a concept that exists within the D&D universe. Even while most of its inhabitants are unaware of it, it literally determines their afterlife, among other things.

I'm all for more moral complexity and all, and I get why Larian/WotC want alignment to play a lesser role. I just hope they won't ditch it altogether - to me, that would be shoving a large part of D&D down the drain.
Posted By: Warlocke Re: Alignment? - 29/09/20 07:31 PM
Originally Posted by Argyle
Originally Posted by Apocynum
[quote=LoneSky]


(Funnily enough, the earliest version of DnD only had a one-axis, three-point system of alignment: you could serve Law, Chaos, or Neutrality, with no Good or Evil to be seen. This is obviously cribbed off of Michael Moorcock, whose books involved a cosmic balance between Law and Chaos, and who tried, though not always successfully, to divorce those concepts from the easier binary of good versus evil.


This is very true. It is also possible that these concepts are much older than Moorcock ... Maat vs. Isfet.
Check out Robert Plant's symbol on Led Zeppelin's fourth album.


Law against chaos is primordial, and was a major part of many ancient religions, especially Egyptian. That being said, for D&D, just like with the early days of Warhammer / WH40k, they were just straight lifting from Moorcock. Moorcock didn’t invent law against chaos anymore than Tolkien invented elves and dwarves, but they are the popular fantasy inspirations behind what is in D&D.
Posted By: Apocynum Re: Alignment? - 29/09/20 07:39 PM
Originally Posted by Argyle
This is very true. It is also possible that these concepts are much older than Moorcock ... Maat vs. Isfet.
Check out Robert Plant's symbol on Led Zeppelin's fourth album.


Absolutely. Moorcock took his inspiration from Zoroastrianism, which goes back to at least several centuries BCE, but there are similar concepts dating back even earlier.


Originally Posted by Llengrath
There is another aspect to alignment that nobody here seems to be talking much about - it's historically always been an important part of the Forgotten Realms/D&D lore.

Alignment isn't just a label you slap on your character during character creation - it's a concept that exists within the D&D universe. Even while most of its inhabitants are unaware of it, it literally determines their afterlife, among other things.

I'm all for more moral complexity and all, and I get why Larian/WotC want alignment to play a lesser role. I just hope they won't ditch it altogether - to me, that would be shoving a large part of D&D down the drain.


I doubt they’ll dump the themes; it seems to me like they’re just backgrounding the specific labels. Heck, we’re starting in the middle of a Blood War battlefield, which is—coincidentally—probably the most prominent Law versus Chaos conflicts in the lore.

(Although in the Forgotten Realms, specifically, your afterlife is determined solely by your patron god and how well you served them. While some lore suggests that souls who didn’t worship a god are personally judged by the current god of the dead, most lore either strongly implies or outright states that they all end up as part of the Wall of the Faithless, there to slowly dissolve into nonexistence. It’s kind of messed up when you think about it.)
Posted By: Warlocke Re: Alignment? - 29/09/20 07:45 PM
Yeah, the alignment system is very apparent in the FR cosmology and the orientation of the planes and the beings which dwell on them, that isn’t going away. But I mostly never saw a purpose in selecting alignments for player characters. It seems overly rigid to me, so excluding them from character creation is more than fine by me.
Posted By: Llengrath Re: Alignment? - 29/09/20 08:15 PM
Originally Posted by Apocynum

I doubt they’ll dump the themes; it seems to me like they’re just backgrounding the specific labels. Heck, we’re starting in the middle of a Blood War battlefield, which is—coincidentally—probably the most prominent Law versus Chaos conflicts in the lore.

(Although in the Forgotten Realms, specifically, your afterlife is determined solely by your patron god and how well you served them. While some lore suggests that souls who didn’t worship a god are personally judged by the current god of the dead, most lore either strongly implies or outright states that they all end up as part of the Wall of the Faithless, there to slowly dissolve into nonexistence. It’s kind of messed up when you think about it.)


Ah, I thought people just automatically go to whichever plane their personality and self-conduct was most akin to (e.g. CN people end up in Limbo, while LE ones go straight to the Nine Hells). Perhaps I got that mixed up with Planescape Torment laugh

At any rate, I hope the themes remain. And tbh I also hope we see more characters who very clearly fit one alignment when it makes sense (e.g. Lae'zel - everything we've seen of her up to this point screamed 'lawful evil', as a githyanki should). I find those to be quite underappreciated these days, Pathfinder Kingmaker was full of such characters, and I really enjoyed most of them. I haven't played the older Larian games, only DOS and DOS2, but from what I've seen they're quite reluctant to write genuinely 'good' characters, as if such people didn't exist.
Posted By: Tzelanit Re: Alignment? - 29/09/20 09:57 PM
Originally Posted by Llengrath
Originally Posted by Apocynum

I doubt they’ll dump the themes; it seems to me like they’re just backgrounding the specific labels. Heck, we’re starting in the middle of a Blood War battlefield, which is—coincidentally—probably the most prominent Law versus Chaos conflicts in the lore.

(Although in the Forgotten Realms, specifically, your afterlife is determined solely by your patron god and how well you served them. While some lore suggests that souls who didn’t worship a god are personally judged by the current god of the dead, most lore either strongly implies or outright states that they all end up as part of the Wall of the Faithless, there to slowly dissolve into nonexistence. It’s kind of messed up when you think about it.)


...from what I've seen they're quite reluctant to write genuinely 'good' characters, as if such people didn't exist.


I've actually enjoyed all of Larian's games because they've never been afraid to work within those moral shades of grey. There's usually not the stereotypical shining beacon or hero figure, and I'm happy that they've got two decades under their belt of crafting stories around the idea that situations very rarely break down to basic concepts of good and bad.
Posted By: vometia Re: Alignment? - 30/09/20 12:06 AM
Originally Posted by Apocynum
Absolutely. Moorcock took his inspiration from Zoroastrianism, which goes back to at least several centuries BCE, but there are similar concepts dating back even earlier.

I dunno about all that, just that I now have bits of Hawkwind's Chronicle of the Black Sword stuck in my head.
Posted By: KillerRabbit Re: Alignment? - 30/09/20 12:30 AM
For me it was Tanelorn by Blind Guardian. Hair metal in my head, all afternoon.

Sure Zoroastrianism had it's impact ('tho I'd argue that had bigger impact on Tolkein -- "keeper of the sacred flame" and all that) but I'd also throw out Chaos, the first god, as an influence:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_(cosmogony)

If you listen to any interviews with Moorcock he'll list influences all day -- his modesty is one of his better traits.
Posted By: KillerRabbit Re: Alignment? - 30/09/20 12:46 AM


Posted By: Warlocke Re: Alignment? - 30/09/20 12:54 AM
Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
For me it was Tanelorn by Blind Guardian. Hair metal in my head, all afternoon.

Sure Zoroastrianism had it's impact ('tho I'd argue that had bigger impact on Tolkein -- "keeper of the sacred flame" and all that) but I'd also throw out Chaos, the first god, as an influence:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_(cosmogony)

If you listen to any interviews with Moorcock he'll list influences all day -- his modesty is one of his better traits.


There are really no direct influences of Zoroastrianism in Tolkien. Sacred flame is hardly a unique concept to that religion. Tolkien has a mix of elements from Norse mythology, but his biggest single influence was his own Catholicism. The Judeo-Christian God exists in Tolkien’s Middleearth, Sauron is a lieutenant of Satan, the wizards are angels and the struggle between good and evil is distinctly Christian. This isn’t even speculation, he wrote all of this in letters.

And Greek chaos doesn’t have much to do with modern conceptions of chaos. It’s more of a primordial void than the jumbled opposite of order. That idea came later. Greeks thought on terms of civilization versus wilderness / savagery, reason versus irrationally, and masculine versus feminine (the Greeks at large had pretty poor opinions of women), and the way they conceived these could all be considered expressions analogous to our contemporary notions of law and chaos, but that had little to do with their version of chaos.
Posted By: KillerRabbit Re: Alignment? - 30/09/20 01:14 AM
I think we can detect some influences in the notion of the flame being eternal, of the maiar serving the flame, etc. No question, Catholicism (English Catholicism) is the greatest influence on Tolkien -- but not the only one, as you mention the Norse myths, Beowulf etc. And yeah, he had defend himself against other Catholics who worried his books weren't Catholic enough (what is he trying to say with Tom Bombadil . . .)

But the Greek Chaos -- Moorcock does use chaos that way. Remember in Stormbringer when the chaos stuff was seeping into the world and changing people's bodies to half human / half white worm and such? It's the primordial void and entropy as well, because it obeys no laws it can contain all contradictions and give rise to all potential resolutions. Gygax ripped this off -- the Githzeri impose law on chaos and build monasteries in Limbo. You're right on about the Greek view of the world but can't agree that didn't have an impact on Moorcock -- remember Elric destroys the world to usher in a new one. The swirling chaos at the end of the Saga is the necessary prerequisite for the creation of the new order to come. It's primordial soup. And, in the new order, Stormbringer is no longer an a pure agent of chaos but also an exemplar of the new concept of evil . . .
Posted By: KillerRabbit Re: Alignment? - 30/09/20 01:40 AM
Stormbringer -- the arrival of chaos

colours seemed to flicker everywhere over the camp, fiends of all kinds mingled with the evilly beautiful Dukes of Hell conferred with the kings who had allied themselves to Jagreen Lem now regretted it. Every so often, the ground erupted and any human beings unfortunate enough be in the area were either engulfed and totally destroyed or else had their bodies warped in indescribable ways. The noise was dreadful, blending of human voices and Chaos sounds, devil's wailing laughter and, quite often the tortured scream of a human soul . . .Many of the human beings could neigh be told from the Chaos creatures, their forms were so warped under the influence of Chaos

Theogony -- the death of Chaos

The life-giving earth crashed around in burning, and the vast wood crackled loud with fire all about. All the land seethed, and Ocean's streams and the unfruitful sea. The hot vapour lapped round the earthborn Titans: flame unspeakable rose to the bright upper air: the flashing glare of the thunder- stone and lightning blinded their eyes for all that there were strong. Astounding heat seized Chaos: and to see with eyes and to hear the sound with ears it seemed even as if Earth and wide Heaven above came together; for such a mighty crash would have arisen if Earth were being hurled to ruin, and Heaven from on high were hurling her down; so great a crash was there while the gods were meeting together in strife. Also the winds brought rumbling earthquake and duststorm, thunder and lightning and the lurid thunderbolt, which are the shafts of great Zeus, and carried the clangour and the warcry into the midst of the two hosts.


Similar themes of boiling seas, crashing storms and fires.

Metamorphoses -- nature of chaos:

" It was a rude and undeveloped mass, that nothing made except a ponderous weight; and all discordant elements confused, were there congested in a shapeless heap."

Similar themes of confusion of elements and formless masses of 'stuff'.

Posted By: vometia Re: Alignment? - 30/09/20 03:04 AM
Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
For me it was Tanelorn by Blind Guardian. Hair metal in my head, all afternoon.

Sure Zoroastrianism had it's impact ('tho I'd argue that had bigger impact on Tolkein -- "keeper of the sacred flame" and all that) but I'd also throw out Chaos, the first god, as an influence:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_(cosmogony)

If you listen to any interviews with Moorcock he'll list influences all day -- his modesty is one of his better traits.

I think it had a bigger impact on Queen. biggrin At least I think Freddie Mercury was Zoroastrian, anyway. I didn't know Blind Graun also worked with Moorcock; as for Hawkwind, I haven't read the Elric books but the album was fairly interesting. Moorcock's poetry readings perhaps less so.

Edit: one day I'll actually remember to quote what I'm replying to beforehand...
Posted By: Tzelanit Re: Alignment? - 30/09/20 04:35 AM
Are the last few comments somehow related to alignment and I'm just missing it, or...? confused
Posted By: vometia Re: Alignment? - 30/09/20 04:44 AM
Discussions often meander off topic, but fair point, if we want to talk about Moorcock, Hawkwind, Zoroastrianism and so on in any more depth perhaps it should get its own topic in general chat.

Sadly, this particular forum software doesn't support the splitting off of posts within a topic; the only alternative is to delete them, so here they stay.
Posted By: Tzelanit Re: Alignment? - 30/09/20 05:35 AM
Oh no, I don't mind it. I'm just not a long-time D&D vet and there were a lot of words and names being discussed that I'm not familiar with, so I thought that maybe some references to alignment or the history of how the system came to be was just going over my head. grin
Posted By: Warlocke Re: Alignment? - 30/09/20 07:11 AM
Originally Posted by Tzelanit
Oh no, I don't mind it. I'm just not a long-time D&D vet and there were a lot of words and names being discussed that I'm not familiar with, so I thought that maybe some references to alignment or the history of how the system came to be was just going over my head. grin


So in terms of major literary inspirations for early D&D, the big one everybody thinks of is Tolkien, for good reason. A major influence who is less well known to the general public (at least for the moment, his works are in the process of being adapted, so it would certainly be interesting if he was received like The Lord of the Rings or Game of Thrones) is Michael Moorcock. Where Tolkien is very prose heavy, scholarly influenced epic high fantasy, Moorcock is 60s and 70s pulp psychedelic fantasy. As he was writing around the time when table top fantasy gaming was first developing, his works played a big part in how these games evolved.

Most of his books are part of the Eternal Champion saga, a multiverse where Law and Chaos are constantly at odds with each other, as opposed to good verses evil found in Tolkien and most other writers of the genre. The Forgotten Realms’s law and chaos dichotomy can be traced directly back to Moorcock, and the cursed sword Stormbringer, wielded by the most popular incarnation of the Eternal Champion, Elric of Melnibone, was actually an item listed in D&D rulebooks up until 2nd Edition. There were probably some other direct references to Moorcock that have escaped me.

And @KillerRabbit, without getting too off topic, that Theogamy quote is from the Titanomachy, and is describing the climactic battle between the Olympians and the Titans, a battle so fierce that it even disturbed chaos. It’s not a description of Greek chaos, which is only mentioned in passing. Chaos is Greek mythology was the absence of everything, complete nothingness, and is very different from the force that is the antithetical opposite of law as it is in Moorcock.

The Metamorphoses was written by Ovid 600 to 700 years later, and Roman conceptions of Chaos were different from the Greeks, and much more similar to Moorcock.

Alright, I think I’m done being the objectively biggest geek on the BG3 forums for a little while. I’m going to sit on this here pillar of skulls and drink some Martinelli’s Apple Juice like a boss.
Posted By: Madscientist Re: Alignment? - 30/09/20 10:58 AM
about alignment:

- I am happy they removed it. Usually when using alignment it results in two things:
a) The options you have are fine, but there is a huge discussion about "Why is this action lawful?" or "How can this be good?"
b) The options fit perfectly each alignment but they are boring or unrealitic. ( good: save everyone, evil: kill everyone, lawful: I follow orders, no questions, chaotic: I do whatever I want and do not care about anything)

Personally I love the Witcher games. No alignment system, but your choices have consequences and the game reminds you that these outcomes are the result of your action.
Looks like Larian does it that way and I think this is good.

- Some time ago I did a test with tons of questions that does not only show your alignment but also your race and class.
Result: I am a lawful neutral human wizard with high int and wis but pathetic cha and bad physical stats ( the DnD version of a nerd ;))
Unfortuanatly I cannot find this test at the moment, it was also an online multiple choice test and the result showed a numerical value for each axis, your race, class and stats.
Posted By: Nyanko Re: Alignment? - 30/09/20 11:24 AM
Heroic Fantasy inspiration for D&D and nobody talks about Howard? Come on, the barbarian class comes directly from Conan. He's the alpha barbarian. Everybody knows that smile

Back on topic, Moorcock is not the only one who wrote extensively on Law vs Chaos. Robert Zelazny as well, in his saga of Amber, reflects on the eternal struggle. Besides, style wise, Zelazny is a much better writer than Moorcock in my opinion.

And I agree with the comment above. I prefer the no alignment system like in the witcher or warhammer fantasy games. Alignment has this tendency to getting stuck into a very specific path which feels boringly inorganic and constrained.
Posted By: LoneSky Re: Alignment? - 30/09/20 11:58 AM
In an ideal world - laws would be perfect. Ours isn't an ideal world, never was, maybe will become one day. Same with the world of D&D. (We still have to work to remove bad laws, fix others and keep them updated; laws are still needed)

Thus being Chaotic Good is the best choice, except when a law is good or an authority is right and following isn't a mistake; also when doing unlawful acts are needed to stop or prevent a larger evil. Sometimes only a Chaotic Evil can stop an evil. That's why only the consequences -- of our choices & actions -- and their wide reaching web of influence, can define, if our actions were Good or Evil. When we act, we can have the best motivations, and still can end badly, because we can't see the future. Even when that is revealed, we can see that Good was just a Lesser Evil in fact, because there was no way to achieve more.

So the game can't show which actions are "Good" or "Evil" without spoiling the endings (of those actions at least), but can define what is "Lawful" or "Chaotic", though without the "Good" or "Evil" parts, their meaning is just knowing that trespassing could trigger an immediate action (such as being chased by guards) and obeying could improve your relationship with some character(s), nothing more.

The alignment system can't be a moral dilemma in it's current form, that's why they lead to "huge discussions about "Why is this action lawful?" or "How can this be good?" as @Madscientist noted in above post, because thankfully the players feel that the system is wrong.

Can this alignment system be "fixed"? Of course, just these can't be shown next to the choices, at least the "Good & Evil" variants not, as I explained above, unless we want major spoiler beacons at every step.
But they could still be part of the story -- and I think they should be a major part of the story, because these give meaning to any major choice. Just can't be visible during gameplay if we don't want spoilers, otherwise can be there as optional feature, as an easy mode (meaning in the story part, making easy to pick the best choice every time)

They still need to be correct: Good really be Good, based on the consequences, and nothing else.
Posted By: Argyle Re: Alignment? - 30/09/20 01:32 PM
D&D was an evolution from the old Chainmail wargaming series, which established the basic dice-roll combat system somewhat like the board game "Risk" but much more complex. In the 3rd edition of Chainmail by Gygax & Perrin, they added the "Fantasy Supplement" with a strong nod to Tolkein & Robert E. Howard (Conan series). This included wizards, elves, dwarves, demons, werebears, and the like. The basic magic spell list was created at this time as well.

Regarding alignment, they state, "It is impossible to draw a distinct line between 'good' and 'evil' fantastic figures. Three categories are listed below as a general guide for the wargamer designing orders of battle involving fantastic creatures: LAW NEUTRAL CHAOS."

Impossible ?!
Posted By: Tzelanit Re: Alignment? - 30/09/20 01:35 PM
Originally Posted by Warlocke
Originally Posted by Tzelanit
Oh no, I don't mind it. I'm just not a long-time D&D vet and there were a lot of words and names being discussed that I'm not familiar with, so I thought that maybe some references to alignment or the history of how the system came to be was just going over my head. grin


So in terms of major literary inspirations for early D&D, the big one everybody thinks of is Tolkien, for good reason. A major influence who is less well known to the general public (at least for the moment, his works are in the process of being adapted, so it would certainly be interesting if he was received like The Lord of the Rings or Game of Thrones) is Michael Moorcock. Where Tolkien is very prose heavy, scholarly influenced epic high fantasy, Moorcock is 60s and 70s pulp psychedelic fantasy. As he was writing around the time when table top fantasy gaming was first developing, his works played a big part in how these games evolved.

Most of his books are part of the Eternal Champion saga, a multiverse where Law and Chaos are constantly at odds with each other, as opposed to good verses evil found in Tolkien and most other writers of the genre. The Forgotten Realms’s law and chaos dichotomy can be traced directly back to Moorcock, and the cursed sword Stormbringer, wielded by the most popular incarnation of the Eternal Champion, Elric of Melnibone, was actually an item listed in D&D rulebooks up until 2nd Edition. There were probably some other direct references to Moorcock that have escaped me.

And @KillerRabbit, without getting too off topic, that Theogamy quote is from the Titanomachy, and is describing the climactic battle between the Olympians and the Titans, a battle so fierce that it even disturbed chaos. It’s not a description of Greek chaos, which is only mentioned in passing. Chaos is Greek mythology was the absence of everything, complete nothingness, and is very different from the force that is the antithetical opposite of law as it is in Moorcock.

The Metamorphoses was written by Ovid 600 to 700 years later, and Roman conceptions of Chaos were different from the Greeks, and much more similar to Moorcock.

Alright, I think I’m done being the objectively biggest geek on the BG3 forums for a little while. I’m going to sit on this here pillar of skulls and drink some Martinelli’s Apple Juice like a boss.


Thank you for that breakdown!
Posted By: Tzelanit Re: Alignment? - 30/09/20 01:39 PM
Originally Posted by Madscientist
about alignment:

- I am happy they removed it. Usually when using alignment it results in two things:
a) The options you have are fine, but there is a huge discussion about "Why is this action lawful?" or "How can this be good?"
b) The options fit perfectly each alignment but they are boring or unrealitic. ( good: save everyone, evil: kill everyone, lawful: I follow orders, no questions, chaotic: I do whatever I want and do not care about anything)

Personally I love the Witcher games. No alignment system, but your choices have consequences and the game reminds you that these outcomes are the result of your action.
Looks like Larian does it that way and I think this is good.

- Some time ago I did a test with tons of questions that does not only show your alignment but also your race and class.
Result: I am a lawful neutral human wizard with high int and wis but pathetic cha and bad physical stats ( the DnD version of a nerd ;))
Unfortuanatly I cannot find this test at the moment, it was also an online multiple choice test and the result showed a numerical value for each axis, your race, class and stats.


I think the best recent example of alignment being handled pretty well is found in Pathfinder: Kingmaker.
Pretty much every situation has options for nearly every alignment, and a lot of the choices make sense for their given alignment. And it's interesting that your alignment is actually tracked on a chart, and you can watch it gradually adjust as you make decisions and can actually swing out of your initial alignment over time by making decisions that other alignments would make. It actively shows your growth as a person since it fluctuates since you can see exactly where each decision fell and how far it swung you toward a specific alignment.
Posted By: KillerRabbit Re: Alignment? - 30/09/20 04:13 PM
(resisting to temptation to talk about music -- but the list of bands is long, that's all)

Agreed. The pathfinder model is D&D -- the witcher is something else. (the stories are also a rip off of the Elric saga but that's another story). Not saying it's a bad game but D&D isn't the witcher -- D&D has it's own history and own feel . And I just prefer D&D to the witcher.


Sure, Zelany was the better writer and Moorcock lists him as an influence. But Moorcock was an ideal factory and lots of the ideas in his books made it into D&D. Early versions of the sourcebook Deities and Demigods provided stats for the major figures in the Elric series. As others have said the Chaos-Law continuum is lifted right from Moorcock. As are the notion of planes of existence. Elemental summoning. Rules for killing gods and demons. The most powerful artifacts in game -- hand and eye of Vecna are taken from the Corum series.

To me "players will disagree" isn't a reason to keep something out of the game. People disagree on things they are passionate about -- if you care enough to argue for your position it shows you care. "tends to start discussions" is another way of saying "immersed" or "engaged"

Sure, alignment can be done badly but it doesn't have to be. Alignment was done well in BG2 and the game wouldn't be the same without the alignment grid -- think of Minsc's comic "make way evil", Mazzy's commitment to honor, Korgan's willingness to murder for coin, Edwin's self serving nature, Haer'Dalis' belief that entropy swallows everything. Alignment provided the pillars of their personality.

Posted By: DrunkPunk Re: Alignment? - 30/09/20 04:40 PM
Originally Posted by Tzelanit
Originally Posted by Madscientist
about alignment:

- I am happy they removed it. Usually when using alignment it results in two things:
a) The options you have are fine, but there is a huge discussion about "Why is this action lawful?" or "How can this be good?"
b) The options fit perfectly each alignment but they are boring or unrealitic. ( good: save everyone, evil: kill everyone, lawful: I follow orders, no questions, chaotic: I do whatever I want and do not care about anything)

Personally I love the Witcher games. No alignment system, but your choices have consequences and the game reminds you that these outcomes are the result of your action.
Looks like Larian does it that way and I think this is good.

- Some time ago I did a test with tons of questions that does not only show your alignment but also your race and class.
Result: I am a lawful neutral human wizard with high int and wis but pathetic cha and bad physical stats ( the DnD version of a nerd ;))
Unfortuanatly I cannot find this test at the moment, it was also an online multiple choice test and the result showed a numerical value for each axis, your race, class and stats.


I think the best recent example of alignment being handled pretty well is found in Pathfinder: Kingmaker.
Pretty much every situation has options for nearly every alignment, and a lot of the choices make sense for their given alignment. And it's interesting that your alignment is actually tracked on a chart, and you can watch it gradually adjust as you make decisions and can actually swing out of your initial alignment over time by making decisions that other alignments would make. It actively shows your growth as a person since it fluctuates since you can see exactly where each decision fell and how far it swung you toward a specific alignment.



I agree, I really like how Pathfinder incorporated it into the game. I did feel like some options were presented better than others (neutral good has a ton of great options, lawful evil has some great ones in some places but lacking in others) but overall I found it to be one of the better implementations of the alignment system in video games.
Posted By: TheAscendent Re: Alignment? - 30/09/20 05:01 PM
If any of our characters die do they go on to the Fugue Plane or are we able to resurrect them. If so how long do we have to get them back.
Posted By: tsundokugames Re: Alignment? - 30/09/20 05:14 PM
[quote="KillerRabbit"] think of Minsc's comic "make way evil", Mazzy's commitment to honor, Korgan's willingness to murder for coin, Edwin's self serving nature, Haer'Dalis' belief that entropy swallows everything. Alignment provided the pillars of their personality.[/quote]

"Yes! Lead evil by example, and one day we need no longer take the boots to those who stray off the path of goodness in to the muck and bile of villainy and track great bloody footprints across our lily white tiles. Boo will have clean wood shavings you evil bastards! YEARGH!"

Greatest quote from any game, ever.
Posted By: Apocynum Re: Alignment? - 30/09/20 05:18 PM
Raise Dead is a core PHB spell. It’s 5th level, so normally for 9th level characters, but can be accessed earlier through NPCs or scrolls. (We may have seen a scroll of Raise Dead in one of the gameplay demos? Although I can’t swear to it.) The PHB deadline for Raise Dead is “within ten days of death,” and I don’t believe the Realms’ somewhat peculiar afterlife specifically interferes with that, although I might be wrong.

We’re straying away from alignment again, though.
Posted By: Madscientist Re: Alignment? - 01/10/20 08:36 AM
OK, I admit that the Pathfinder games are relatively good regarding alignment.
I do not remember kingmaker so well, but right now I play the wotr alpha. There I can move towards chaotic evil without randomly killing people. Chaotic can mean you want to have some fun, even during a demon invasion, and it means you disagree with overzealous crusadors. Evil can mean to be pragmatic and not trying to be nice to everyone.
There was one moment where you could deal with some cultists by pretending to be their boss and convince them to kill each other.
Killing people when you can lets you move towards CE much faster though.

I do not think that BG2 was a good example for alignment.
The companions had a strong personality, but you can do this without alignment as well.
Alignment only influences your starting reputation, if you can equip some items and how you react to some spells.
The choices in the game only influence your reputation and the good option usually gives the better rewards. The game wants you to be a hero.
I was playing with an evil assassin only because I could use some items good for backstabbing. I acted always in a heroic way and took the good options and nobody cared about my alignment.

I think PST was the first game where your choices can change your alignment. The alignment tag is not shown in dialogue, but the game informs you when your alignment changes.
Posted By: TheAscendent Re: Alignment? - 01/10/20 09:19 AM
I only asked about death and resurrection is because where we go after we die is largely dependent on our alignment or our patron god. No one wants to end up in the Wall of the Faithless.
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