Larian Studios
Hello Larian Team,

I hope this post finds the team well and I want to offer my congratulations on the efforts of your game designers and the dreams realised with the launch of Baldur's Gate 3 early access. I eagerly look forward to testing future editions of the title and seeing the studio's completed work in a year's time.

To this end, after viewing forum posts and opinions from the game's community, I wanted to more directly convey these player's and my own concerns regarding BG3's portrayal of Elves. Many testers have found the Elf faces off-putting and unrepresentative of the Elven race long time D&D players know and appreciate (And, in many cases, love to hate!). The technical quality of the faces Larian Studios has designed are superb even at this early stage, but their lack of authenticity specifically regarding the Elves has been a disappointment.

Narrower chins and jaws, shifted, widened and slanted eyes, high and prominent cheekbones, an unsettling, inhumanly haunting beauty about them; these qualities aren't being reflected as well as they could be. Tieflings have been brought to life like never before in the artistic medium of game design and I know many of the players and fans would approve of that same life and vivid creative design breathed into Elves.

Current head models don't and shouldn't need to be done away with entirely, but it's my feeling that a not insignificant number of the community would be more enticed to try a race like Elves if they had head model choices that were closer in authenticity to the original material. I hope this has given the team ideas to consider going forward and I would be pleased to correspond further about the matter.

The first piece of feedback that I would like to offer is that, interestingly enough, all of the half elf heads look more delicate and elven than the actual elven heads.

[Linked Image]

Many of us who have always have a soft spot for elves would be very happy if we could get at least a couple of heads that look more 'traditional', that is, less human and a little more like they belong to a different race. Elves are beautiful, yes, but key words in their description are often overlooked and not given much tought. They are not described as breath-taking, or captivating, although they might be. They are described with words such as unsettling, unnerving, haunting, when it comes to their beauty. This is no casual choice of wording, it clearly states elves are simply not meant to be or feel relatable.

This sketch perfectly examples the physiology of elves; the slanted eyes, triangular/heartshaped features, sharp noses and chins, and a general 'otherly' feel that is not relatable to any of the human heritages of our world.

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]



One of the stances that I have encountered every so often when discussing this around the forums, is people claiming that '5E elves look just like humans in the official artwork', with none of the features that are known to older editions. I disagree with that not as an opinion but simply as a matter of fact, I've done the research around and gathered plenty of official artwork that still depicts these features, if not as prominent as it used to be:

[Linked Image]

THIS IS ALL 5E OFFICIAL ARTWORK I gathered from the manuals. Many people act like they don't exist. You can still see the high cheekbones, the slanted eyes, the triangular shaped face, all of it is there, if not as extremely displayed as it used to in older editions. Yet none of the current heads look like this. I think we would be happy with a few heads that have this sort of traditional features, the slanted eyes per instance are entirely missing, not a single head has this key feature.

In case you do not genuinelly see the features, here you go:

[Linked Image]

Likewise, this kind of art is represented in the original Baldur's Gate games, as can be seen in Aerie's and Jaheira's portraits:

[Linked Image]

I would like for this topic to be open to discuss not just aesthetics and appeareance but also all things elven related. I have not delved into the game deeply enough to give feedback with full confidence yet, but I have had zero meaningful interactions as an elf in the world. The few 'elven' dialog choices that have popped up have been shallow and meaningless, whereas after a quick and short lived gameplay as a drow I was presented with a lot more options (which I was surprised of, very well done there, Larian.)

Elves are also described to be tight-knit as a race, something that manifests not just psychologically or emotionally but, literally, physically, through something known as communion. In short, it is an inborn ability to share experiences, feelings, emotions and dreams with other willing elves. While I do not expect such a mechanic to be adapted in the game -cool as it might be-, it does give a hint to just how important it is for elves to be around, and acknowledged by other elves. I expected to see some special interactions with Astarion and Shadowheart as an elf player, yet there were none. Astarion, vampire or not, simply did not have a single elven trait about him other than the mechanic stats and cantrips.













Posted By: Odda Re: Elven heads and Dwarven beards - 10/10/20 02:54 PM
Nothing to say about elves, as I've no interest in playing one.
While I'm happy enough with the current choice in dwarf beard, I'd definitely be delighted to see more options there...and how come I can't get the stereotypical Scots accent while I'm at it, eh?
Posted By: Kingslayer Re: Elven heads and Dwarven beards - 10/10/20 03:06 PM
Totally agree about the half-elves looking more elven. It's so striking that I'd think it was a programming error if it wasn't for the fact that Larian would've mentioned or fixed it by now.
Posted By: Zaemon Re: Elven heads and Dwarven beards - 10/10/20 03:34 PM
I wanted to start a thread about appearance variety too. I feel you guys, but my "ask" is about hairstyle. I think right now variety is deeply mainstream, I don't like goblins looking like punk modern girls. I'd like more variety that really looks like medieval hair.
Posted By: Goldberry Re: Elven heads and Dwarven beards - 11/10/20 02:26 AM
Originally Posted by Kingslayer
Totally agree about the half-elves looking more elven. It's so striking that I'd think it was a programming error if it wasn't for the fact that Larian would've mentioned or fixed it by now.


Right? I've also seen zero conflict with drow NPCs, though granted I've only crossed paths with 2. Have you seen any interesting elf-drow interaction?


Originally Posted by Zaemon
I wanted to start a thread about appearance variety too. I feel you guys, but my "ask" is about hairstyle. I think right now variety is deeply mainstream, I don't like goblins looking like punk modern girls. I'd like more variety that really looks like medieval hair.


There's a million threads about general appeareance requests. I don't mind if you post yours here though! I would like more medieval hairstyles too, specially lots of braids and woad warrior war paint.

[Linked Image]




Posted By: BrianDavion Re: Elven heads and Dwarven beards - 11/10/20 03:21 AM
I definatly think elven faces should be sharp and angular, maybe not quite as bad as the faces in the diagram but elves should definatly have sharper finer features then humans. as for dwarven beards, to be honest I assumed they where limited due to graphics issues, specificly that longer beards may have had clipping issues
Posted By: Anung un Rama Re: Elven heads and Dwarven beards - 11/10/20 03:23 AM
I absolutely agree with you. And I say more, they need to solve the clipping with dwarf characters, in every cutscene my character's face enters his chest. It completely spoils my immersion. I made a post talking about it, and I think they (Larian) can change their (dwarves) posture and add bigger, more "fixed" beards.
Posted By: golw Re: Elven heads and Dwarven beards - 11/10/20 08:37 AM
The dwarf faces are good so far, they just need to add in a large variety of beards. At least 10. I'll never get over Neverwinter Nights giving dwarves two beards. The hell. I'm not complaining about the 2 we have in BG3, since we're still in EA. I do expect a lot of beards later though.
Posted By: Uncle Lester Re: Elven heads and Dwarven beards - 11/10/20 08:43 AM
Completely agree. I should be able to say "that's an elf!" even without seeing a characters ears. Their facial features should imo be a bit outside of the human spectrum. For half-elves, one should take a look and think "hmm... either a fine-featured human or a heavy-featured elf?". Same for (half-)drow, of course.

As it is currently, the male elf head makes me think of a particularly sturdy-looking human peasant. Really, the jaw is huge! The eyes slant the opposite way, so to speak, which makes the character look somewhat... spaced out rather than keenly intelligent/of alien beauty as would be expected of an elf. (I wanted to say I was reminded of Oblivion faces, but this would be going too far...)

I would also add that I wish halflings had better proportions. They are said to be more or less like scaled-down humans in their lore, but in BG3 they are more reminiscent of real-life humans with dwarfism.
Posted By: The Drow Warlock Re: Elven heads and Dwarven beards - 11/10/20 08:55 AM
That illustration of human/half-elf/elf male and female examples is excellent! I'd love if that were followed.
Posted By: Infiltrator Re: Elven heads and Dwarven beards - 11/10/20 11:42 AM
Agreed. The elven males at least look like they mixed with orcs judging their brow.

While the graph is a nice reference point, I doubt larian will shift their design so much to follow it, I do think that they should make the pure elves the most "delicate" looking though, and ramp it up to humans, with half-elves being inbetween.

Posted By: Aengist Re: Elven heads and Dwarven beards - 11/10/20 01:39 PM
I agree, it's really ironic that male half-elfs look far more elfish than the proper elfs... Hopefully they will give us more appropriate choices in the future.
Posted By: blindhamster Re: Elven heads and Dwarven beards - 11/10/20 01:42 PM
I like some of the elf heads, male head 1 is rather good IMO, but yeah, not a huge fan of most of them.
Posted By: DumbleDorf Re: Elven heads and Dwarven beards - 11/10/20 02:11 PM
I already saw this thread and agreed with it, and was mostly repeating the same sentiment in my thread.

The issue could be entirely solved with fully customizable characters.

The main issue with most of the preset faces, elves particularly is that the cheeckbones / jaws are completely messed up, its like they just just used a random generator and picked the first bunch of passable faces.
Posted By: Anung un Rama Re: Elven heads and Dwarven beards - 11/10/20 04:27 PM
the illustrations perfectly exemplify how it should be. Larian may see this as insignificant, but in an RPG it is very important that races are represented correctly.
Posted By: Aelorin Re: Elven heads and Dwarven beards - 11/10/20 07:09 PM
+1

As I stated in another post: The elf male faces are to big and rough, and not fine and sophisticated as they should be!

I really hope they will change them more.

Posted By: ZawiszaTheBlack Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 11/10/20 07:53 PM
Male Elf faces are joke. Most of them look like 80s fantasy-action movie hero with square jaw and hairy chest. LOL
I also don't understand Asian faces, it doesn't make sense for Elves, but makes a lot of sense for humans.

On the other hand elven design of Forgotten Realms changed through years and it's closer to human (the eyes are not that slanted anymore). Ofc closer to human doesn't mean big square jaw.
By the way, did you notice that all Elves in the game are as tall as human?

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

Posted By: Rhovaniel Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 11/10/20 08:02 PM
Why not make all the heads available to all the races. I mean, they are all scanned from real-life human heads. If humans can have such variety, why not elves?
Posted By: ZawiszaTheBlack Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 11/10/20 08:11 PM
Originally Posted by Rhovaniel
Why not make all the heads available to all the races. I mean, they are all scanned from real-life human heads. If humans can have such variety, why not elves?


These are scanned faces that were later remodeled by graphic designers (you can find it in their character creation diary). There is variety (in Forgotten Realms lore), but within their racial characteristics. The same as with Chinese people who are different from each other but still share some common characteristics within their ethnic group.
Posted By: Goldberry Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 12/10/20 05:58 AM
Originally Posted by ZawiszaTheBlack
On the other hand elven design of Forgotten Realms changed through years and it's closer to human (the eyes are not that slanted anymore). Ofc closer to human doesn't mean big square jaw.


Granted the features are not as pronounced as they used to be, but they can still be found in official artwork. All of this pictures are from the 5E player's handbook:

[Linked Image]

Originally Posted by ZawiszaTheBlack
I also don't understand Asian faces, it doesn't make sense for Elves, but makes a lot of sense for humans.


I don't know whether that's Larian or WOTC's new direction, but I find it nonsensical as well. I've said this before, I'm mixed race myself yet I don't feel the need to see my features represented in a non-human folk from a fantasy land. Elves are not supposed to be human. Half elves though, you can give them a broad fan of diversity in all shapes and colours.

And yes, they're as tall and broad as humans are, same body-type. The wood elf druid is even bigger, If I recall correctly he's a giant hulk of a man.




Posted By: Slippery Catfish Re: Elven heads and Dwarven beards - 12/10/20 09:05 AM
Originally Posted by Zaemon
I wanted to start a thread about appearance variety too. I feel you guys, but my "ask" is about hairstyle. I think right now variety is deeply mainstream, I don't like goblins looking like punk modern girls. I'd like more variety that really looks like medieval hair.


Have to say I'm lukewarm towards the goblins as well. Larian is allowed creative license but they're not coming across as the pack of conniving, savage little beasties I know and love them to be in their designs. Taste is very subjective but at least I'm not the only one who seems to think so.

A thread about elven faces came up months ago that I remember pitching in on raised this very concern about the Elves looks un-Elven after a gameplay demo aired. What was said there bears repeating despite the masses of people content to have Elves just look like pretty Humans - taste is subjective, again, but good gods these are not pretty.

[Linked Image]

Wide nose, wide lips, shrunken and far-apart eyes, the feature coming vaguely close to "Elf" is the cheekbones. Drow and High Elves share face models so it doesn't matter much which I'm using.

Elves are distinctly Fey-like, slender and shorter than humans. The jaws, the chins, the facial structure is all terribly off and unrecognizable from Elves. Goldberry's diagram was even posted in the thread of months ago I mentioned, and it still illustrates brilliantly the problems with the Elven head models Larian has gone with. I've long been a fan of the studio, since the first D:OS game came out and have never taken particular issue with any of their design or artistic choices - but for something as strongly pre-established and rich in lore as forgotten realms, there does need to be that extra attention to detail to hit the nail on the head. This nail was missed and the hammer landed on the fingernail instead.
Posted By: blindhamster Re: Elven heads and Dwarven beards - 12/10/20 09:17 AM
Originally Posted by Slippery Catfish

Elves are distinctly Fey-like, slender and shorter than humans. The jaws, the chins, the facial structure is all terribly off and unrecognizable from Elves. Goldberry's diagram was even posted in the thread of months ago I mentioned, and it still illustrates brilliantly the problems with the Elven head models Larian has gone with. I've long been a fan of the studio, since the first D:OS game came out and have never taken particular issue with any of their design or artistic choices - but for something as strongly pre-established and rich in lore as forgotten realms, there does need to be that extra attention to detail to hit the nail on the head. This nail was missed and the hammer landed on the fingernail instead.


In forgotten realms, High elves are not shorter than humans, in fact they tend to be tall. Drow are supposed to be short, off hand i cant remember where wood elves fit in the height spectrum.

But i agree that elves should have generally more delicate features with more almond shaped eyes that are usually on somewhat more of an angle.


IMO, the only elf-like face the elves get is head 1, it's narrower than the rest with more angular features without being ugly.


Posted By: Goldberry Re: Elven heads and Dwarven beards - 12/10/20 09:38 AM
Originally Posted by blindhamster
In forgotten realms, High elves are not shorter than humans, in fact they tend to be tall. Drow are supposed to be short, off hand i cant remember where wood elves fit in the height spectrum.


They are shorter in other editions, but 5E (the one BG3 is based off) they are around the same height I think. Drow are definitely shorter.


Originally Posted by Slippery Catfish
Goldberry's diagram was even posted in the thread of months ago I mentioned, and it still illustrates brilliantly the problems with the Elven head models Larian has gone with.


Thank you! For clarification though, it's not 'mine', I just ripped it from a player's handbook manual smile
Posted By: blindhamster Re: Elven heads and Dwarven beards - 12/10/20 09:56 AM
Originally Posted by Goldberry
Originally Posted by blindhamster
In forgotten realms, High elves are not shorter than humans, in fact they tend to be tall. Drow are supposed to be short, off hand i cant remember where wood elves fit in the height spectrum.


They are shorter in other editions, but 5E (the one BG3 is based off) they are around the same height I think. Drow are definitely shorter.


Originally Posted by Slippery Catfish
Goldberry's diagram was even posted in the thread of months ago I mentioned, and it still illustrates brilliantly the problems with the Elven head models Larian has gone with.


Thank you! For clarification though, it's not 'mine', I just ripped it from a player's handbook manual smile



actually again no, even in 3.5 and 4e, high elves (sun and moon elves at least) have always been human height. 4'10" +2d10 was the sun and moon elf height in 3.5 and 3e, which was the same as humans, Eladrin in 4e (which is what sun and moon elves got lumped into) were between 5'5" and 6'1", so in 4e they were marginally shorter but able to be as tall as typical humans at around 6' and in 5e, sun and moon elves are high elves and the same height as humans. 5e has high elves as 4'6"+2d10 and humans as 4'8"+2d10. So again pretty similar in height.

I guess you can argue elves are shorter still in 4 and 5e, but not noticeably so. Whereas in greyhawk and i think a few other D&D settings, elves were traditionally a lot shorter than humans.
Posted By: WarBaby2 Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 12/10/20 11:06 AM
Originally Posted by Goldberry
Originally Posted by ZawiszaTheBlack
On the other hand elven design of Forgotten Realms changed through years and it's closer to human (the eyes are not that slanted anymore). Ofc closer to human doesn't mean big square jaw.


Granted the features are not as pronounced as they used to be, but they can still be found in official artwork. All of this pictures are from the 5E player's handbook:

[Linked Image]

Originally Posted by ZawiszaTheBlack
I also don't understand Asian faces, it doesn't make sense for Elves, but makes a lot of sense for humans.


I don't know whether that's Larian or WOTC's new direction, but I find it nonsensical as well. I've said this before, I'm mixed race myself yet I don't feel the need to see my features represented in a non-human folk from a fantasy land. Elves are not supposed to be human. Half elves though, you can give them a broad fan of diversity in all shapes and colours.

And yes, they're as tall and broad as humans are, same body-type. The wood elf druid is even bigger, If I recall correctly he's a giant hulk of a man.


Well, Wood/Green Elves and Wild Elves (not in the game), should be broader/more muscular and slightly shorter then Moon and Sun Elves... but still, not going off human figures, but elven ones. They also should have more "robust" faces... wider jaws and noses, more facial hair (no beards, obviously, but sideburns and thicker brows). Asian features though? Nope... elven features are, well elven. They shouldn't have an equivalent in human races. Just as dwarven faces are slightly "off", with being too broad and wide, and have far too big noses, compared to humans, elven faces have a structure not found in any human ethnicity either. Especially the eyes. Elven eyes are supposed to be almond shaped and angled, yes, but also very large, not slanted at all.

Actually, looking at the facen in game right now, I think they could even be morphed to fit the general triangle/arrow head shape they should have. Elongate them a bit, angle the eyes and brows, slim down the noses and clean up the skin (even male elven skin is more delicate/smaller pored than human skin). It could work. Also, the hair: It should have a softer texture too it.

...a few axamples from my sidel:

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]
Posted By: DumbleDorf Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 12/10/20 12:53 PM
I'm pretty sure I already said it all summarised as 'You can make better looking characters in Oblivion'.

Because the point is that by current standards, Oblivion actually had very atrocious character models and it didn't age well at all, yet somehow BG3 manages to still be worse in 2020.

The small pick of default faces pretty much all look the same. Select a beard then switch through each face and you can barely see any difference at all. They are not sufficient to meet each player's choices or desires in how they want their character to look.

A fully customisable character creation engine like in Oblivion and Skyrim should pretty much be a mandatory requirement for new AAA RPGs.
Posted By: Goldberry Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 12/10/20 01:01 PM
A little bit off topic, but it still concerns elves, so I'm going to ask around here since you guys seem like-minded. I decided to make a second play-through maining a drow, and going the full evil route. It's going better than I expected, you do get some drow interactions (whereas I didn't get any at all as a high elf, anywhere, with anyone, it was kind of disappointing)

And then I met Kagha. Who expresses appreciation for a drow :| ...What... Happened there? Why? Drow and surface elves are supposed to hate each other. Is there a reason regarding Kagha specifically?
Posted By: Imryll Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 12/10/20 02:38 PM
+1 Even the half-elf faces could stand to be a little narrower--or at least there should be the option of creating a less "hearty" looking character. I think my wood elf ranger is pretty (at least when weird things aren't going on with hair sprouting out of her helm), but there's no touch of the ethereal in her appearance. I think the current faces are more or less OK as options, but we should have the choice of making a more delicate-appearing elf.
Posted By: Slippery Catfish Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 12/10/20 11:26 PM
Originally Posted by Goldberry
A little bit off topic, but it still concerns elves, so I'm going to ask around here since you guys seem like-minded. I decided to make a second play-through maining a drow, and going the full evil route. It's going better than I expected, you do get some drow interactions (whereas I didn't get any at all as a high elf, anywhere, with anyone, it was kind of disappointing)

And then I met Kagha. Who expresses appreciation for a drow :| ...What... Happened there? Why? Drow and surface elves are supposed to hate each other. Is there a reason regarding Kagha specifically?


What I managed to interpret from this interaction was that she appreciates how Drow... protect their own? You know. The society of backstabbers where trust is death. At least they do band together against the 'lesser' races and mostly agree on that. Or it could be the Drow's infamous ruthlessness.

The lack of Drow to High Elf interaction and vice versa is something I hope Larian will catch on to, though having a completely antagonistic and hostile play through for a Lolth Sworn Drow would be a hard thing to manage with all the rewriting probably required. Just things here and there, present but not overbearing, would be nice.

Originally Posted by blindhamster
Originally Posted by Slippery Catfish

Elves are distinctly Fey-like, slender and shorter than humans. The jaws, the chins, the facial structure is all terribly off and unrecognizable from Elves. Goldberry's diagram was even posted in the thread of months ago I mentioned, and it still illustrates brilliantly the problems with the Elven head models Larian has gone with. I've long been a fan of the studio, since the first D:OS game came out and have never taken particular issue with any of their design or artistic choices - but for something as strongly pre-established and rich in lore as forgotten realms, there does need to be that extra attention to detail to hit the nail on the head. This nail was missed and the hammer landed on the fingernail instead.


In forgotten realms, High elves are not shorter than humans, in fact they tend to be tall. Drow are supposed to be short, off hand i cant remember where wood elves fit in the height spectrum.

But i agree that elves should have generally more delicate features with more almond shaped eyes that are usually on somewhat more of an angle.


IMO, the only elf-like face the elves get is head 1, it's narrower than the rest with more angular features without being ugly.




Appreciate the correction, I'm very used to playing and talking in circles like nwn1.
Posted By: TravelingBuddha Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 12/10/20 11:45 PM
I want my elves to be beautiful, emaciated twinks. Not whatever they are now.
Posted By: DumbleDorf Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 12/10/20 11:47 PM
The only Wood elf face I found passable was the second one, tat I'm now trying for a Ranger playthrough.

All the Halfling faces on the other hand made me cry.
Posted By: TwilightRogue Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 13/10/20 03:49 AM
Yes I agree.
The full elves should be the more alien and angular, or along the lines of "strangely pretty" but for now the half elf males actually look better. However, the half elves are stuck with body hair we can't edit.
This definitely needs to change, even a simple solution like allowing full and half elves to use both sets of head shapes, and allowing a toggle for body hair. More options for body type (thickness of limbs and waist, muscle tone texture) would be very welcome.
Posted By: AnonySimon Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 13/10/20 10:48 AM
I agree that currently the half-elf faces look more elven than the elf faces in BG3. I want my elves to have angular faces and distinctly slanted eyes.
Posted By: Ixal Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 13/10/20 04:30 PM
D&D, and sadly most of the derived fantasy works, treat the common fantasy races as nothing more than humans with funny ears. So I am all for giving them distinct, nonhuman features.
And don't stop with elves. Dwarves, Halflings and Gnomes should also have faces which visibly differs from humans so you can see which races it is just by looking at the portrait instead of having to see how large they are.
Posted By: WarBaby2 Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 13/10/20 04:37 PM
Originally Posted by Ixal
D&D, and sadly most of the derived fantasy works, treat the common fantasy races as nothing more than humans with funny ears. So I am all for giving them distinct, nonhuman features.
And don't stop with elves. Dwarves, Halflings and Gnomes should also have faces which visibly differs from humans so you can see which races it is just by looking at the portrait instead of having to see how large they are.


Not really... I think this extreme humanization of non-human races mostly stems from movies (like the LotR series) and, above all else, video games... as long as they only existed in written or illustration form, this trend wasn't nearly as pronounced.
Posted By: Moirnelithe Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 13/10/20 04:46 PM
More classic elven features would be appreciated. Elves as a race are generally seen as extraordinarily beautiful and ethereal. I found only one of the female heads to be somewhat (but not really) meeting that criterium. Elves are not humans with pointy ears slapped on. They don't have broad features but delicate ones. Some of the heads are distinctly missing the mark, which in itself is fine. No need to remove them. But please add more choices. There should be a range of classic elven heads to choose from. Right now that range is simply not sufficient.
Posted By: Goldberry Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 13/10/20 04:49 PM
Originally Posted by WarBaby2

Not really... I think this extreme humanization of non-human races mostly stems from movies (like the LotR series) and, above all else, video games... as long as they only existed in written or illustration form, this trend wasn't nearly as pronounced.


True. The manuals do an excellent job at giving elves a lot of nuance. They go into a lot of detail about their ways, their culture, their economy, their dressing, their diet, their emotion, psychology, daily rituals and a lot more. It is the adaptations that fail to represent those things. I suspect elves are simply a niche, and only us, friendless psychopaths obsessed with the race for one reason or another, only care for all of that :'D
Posted By: Seraphael Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 13/10/20 05:17 PM
I agree with the criticism here. I'm replaying Dragon Age Inquisition with Bioware's butchered elves...I would hate for Larian to do a repeat of their soddy work.
Posted By: Dark_Ansem Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 13/10/20 05:39 PM
Originally Posted by Seraphael
I agree with the criticism here. I'm replaying Dragon Age Inquisition with Bioware's butchered elves...I would hate for Larian to do a repeat of their soddy work.


Not butchered - but defeated. And for good reason. Also, ungodly powerful beyond the veil.
Posted By: deadsanta Re: Elves are not Elven - 13/10/20 06:06 PM
Historically, elves look like all sorts of variations of the human form, mixed with human features. Tolkien's elves were just stretched out a bit but folks who saw the early Hobbit and LOTR animated films in the 70's recall how different they looked from modern super-aryan elves of film. From the early 20th and late 19th centuries they looked more like what we think of as goblins, or tiny children with odd animal features. Basically, an elf can look like whatever you want it to look like, it's all fair game, since it's all folktales, and the DnD art I've seen runs the gamut from traditional folk art to just people with pointy ears. This is a pointless thread IMO. rackham elf

Posted By: WarBaby2 Re: Elves are not Elven - 13/10/20 06:30 PM
Originally Posted by deadsanta
Historically, elves look like all sorts of variations of the human form, mixed with human features. Tolkien's elves were just stretched out a bit but folks who saw the early Hobbit and LOTR animated films in the 70's recall how different they looked from modern super-aryan elves of film. From the early 20th and late 19th centuries they looked more like what we think of as goblins, or tiny children with odd animal features. Basically, an elf can look like whatever you want it to look like, it's all fair game, since it's all folktales, and the DnD art I've seen runs the gamut from traditional folk art to just people with pointy ears. This is a pointless thread IMO. [url=https://nt.global.ssl.fastly.net/images/1431823201067-rackhamheaderimage.jpg?width=1920&auto=webp&crop=16:7]rackham elf[/url


Also, true, but these are Realms (D&D) elves we are talking about, and they have been very thoroughly described and illustrated for abour 30 years now, and one of the biggest reasons why they don't just look "like beautiful humans" is, that they are literally alien to Abeir Toril... like dwarves, they have no genetic ancestry with the planet's native humans, hence why they only vaguely resemble them, at most.

Contrary to, for instance, LotR, where the ancient Elves basically originated all intelligent live... even Orks and Goblins.
Posted By: Arideya Re: Elves are not Elven - 13/10/20 06:30 PM
I do like "traditional" FR looking elves - shorter, leaner, alien eyes, longer slimmer faces etc, but lets be honest - FR elven designs used to be transformed caucasian features. There is no reason why you could not take asian features and transform them the same way as you did caucasian, it will just add more variety. Use asian features and make the face longer and eyes larger and more slanted towards the nose and you have an elf that is asian-looking. Also as someone said earlier here, Wood Elves do have wider features in general and are stockier.
Posted By: Goldberry Re: Elves are not Elven - 13/10/20 06:46 PM
Originally Posted by WarBaby2
Also, true, but these are Realms (D&D) elves we are talking about, and they have been very thoroughly described and illustrated for abour 30 years now, and one of the biggest reasons why they don't just look "like beautiful humans" is, that they are literally alien to Abeir Toril... like dwarves, they have no genetic ancestry with the planet's native humans, hence why they only vaguely resemble them, at most.


...Right? I don't know why some people act like the manuals have not gone in depth about this kind of things.
Posted By: Goldberry Re: Elves are not Elven - 14/10/20 02:16 PM
Bump just to announce that I've updated the main post with more information! I might still update now and then, for those interested smile
Posted By: Anung un Rama Re: Elves are not Elven - 14/10/20 02:23 PM
Originally Posted by Goldberry
Bump just to announce that I've updated the main post with more information! I might still update now and then, for those interested smile


I'm definitely interested! And I really hope that the artists in Larian will take into account the number of people who want a change in the elves to a more classic style.
Posted By: Hachina Re: Elves are not Elven - 14/10/20 03:17 PM
Originally Posted by Arideya
I do like "traditional" FR looking elves - shorter, leaner, alien eyes, longer slimmer faces etc, but lets be honest - FR elven designs used to be transformed caucasian features. There is no reason why you could not take asian features and transform them the same way as you did caucasian, it will just add more variety. Use asian features and make the face longer and eyes larger and more slanted towards the nose and you have an elf that is asian-looking. Also as someone said earlier here, Wood Elves do have wider features in general and are stockier.

+1
Posted By: KillerRabbit Re: Elves are not Elven - 14/10/20 06:25 PM
I for giving the option to do either -- keep the existing head but include some heads with the more angular looks and otherworldly feel.
Posted By: Zeraman Re: Elves are not Elven - 14/10/20 06:35 PM
Even if the more elvish look isn't doable for facial animation reasons, etc., I don't think elves and and humans should share the face presets. It's even more funny when you notice that while elves and humans have identical faces, the half-elves don't share the presets. I think Astarion is an ok compromise in that his face is more slender than that of an average adult man, if we could at least get the same slenderness and grace on the elf presets, I'd be content.
Posted By: blindhamster Re: Elves are not Elven - 14/10/20 06:56 PM
I think if you're going to include real world ethnicitites with elves, logically they should be tied to specific subraces. And to cloud the water a bit, High Elves cover Sun, Moon and Star Elves, whilst Wood Elves cover Wood Elves and Wild/Green Elves, Drow are drow, the seldarine drow (if basing them on the description found in the follow on series from war of the spider queen should indeed be distinct too.

High Elves should be more delicate features, more slender based on Moon and Star Elves, Sun Elves can reasonably fall into that category too. Skin colours for these would range from very pale to "bronzed". Hair colours would be pretty diverse with Blue being a thing for moon elves, Sun Elves tend toward blond, red or brown hair. Star Elves share most of their colouration with Moon Elves iirc.

Wood Elves should be a bit stockier and generally a bit more rugged looking, their skin tones would tend toward ruddier tones or browns, their hair toward darker colours as well. Eyes are still reasonably varied.

Drow should be more delicate looking than Wood Elves, but probably have a hardness to them that most High Elves do not. Their skin tones are supposed to purplish black/blueish black/brownish black/grey-blacks. their eyes are more limited in colour with almost all of them having red eyes, some rare few have unusual colours like violet or amber, but its rare, the red eyes are part of the curse Corellon put on them to make them into drow. Their hair would be varied shades of white naturally, but i guess they could dye it as dye would take well to naturally white hair.

Seldarine Drow (which should really be "Dark Elves" would be similar in colouration to Wild Elves, tending toward brown skin and darker hair, but physically resumble Drow in terms of build.
Posted By: Slippery Catfish Re: Elves are not Elven - 15/10/20 09:30 AM
Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
I for giving the option to do either -- keep the existing head but include some heads with the more angular looks and otherworldly feel.


This seems like the best compromise and the one I see the most. Keep some of the heads for the people that like them, which I personally don't understand but hey, and some closer to the material models for others.
Posted By: Sechrima Re: Elves are not Elven - 15/10/20 09:43 AM
I agree that Larian should keep the current heads but add some new ones that look like proper, otherworldly elves (and half-elves). That way they don't have to scrap any of the currently advertised companion designs like Astarion and Shadowheart. At the same time, they'll also please more discerning fans. The more human-like heads I can just pretend are elves with a bit of human ancestry or something.
Posted By: Maxximenez Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 15/10/20 10:06 AM
Your friendly reminder that the yoked AF, 7 foot tall druid Halsin is a "wood elf".

Dude looks like a cream-colored orc.
Posted By: Raflamir Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 15/10/20 10:39 AM
I'd very much like elves to look like elves.
Posted By: blindhamster Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 15/10/20 10:41 AM
Originally Posted by Sechrima
I agree that Larian should keep the current heads but add some new ones that look like proper, otherworldly elves (and half-elves). That way they don't have to scrap any of the currently advertised companion designs like Astarion and Shadowheart. At the same time, they'll also please more discerning fans. The more human-like heads I can just pretend are elves with a bit of human ancestry or something.

Shadowheart wouldn't need to change, half elves will have as much from their human side as their elven, often more. Means Half Elves can be super diverse, getting features from both ancestries. Asterion wouldn't need a massive change, he's already more slender and angular in features than almost all the currently available elf heads. minor tweaks to perhaps his eye shape and jawline would probably have him sorted.
Posted By: Sordak Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 15/10/20 11:00 AM
All of these problems are solved with sliders.

I actually agree with the OP, but i feel this is western developer-itis that larian caught from hirign too many people from the anglo sphere.
Trying to make the humanoid NPCs look too "realistic" and kind of forsaking fantasy aesthetics as a result, it doesnt usually work.
THo i gotta say BG3 NPCs at least can be attractive and ofthen do work, especialy the githyanki and tieflings, but i admit elves are a strange case.

Another can of worms is the question of ethnicity. Ive said it in another thread , i think larian spent too much time trying to get a diverse cast of actors and thus ended up with very few different actual faces per ethnicity.
Thats fine with Humans, but Elves are ultimatley based on a mixture of norse and celtic mythology and its perfectly fine to have them have caucasian features because ultimatley thats what everyone imagiens them like anyway and thus allowing for more variation within that. . I dont think youll find a lot of people that find the dryads from the withcer series fitting for the role they occupy in the setting.
its patronizing more so than anything else.
This whole thing results in people just picking one and the same face per race, this is most obvious in elves if you ask me.
I know that this particular topic is not to be blamed on Larian but on WOTC who think that having 90s style Tokenism will get them the elusive "minority target demographic", which of course it wont, becuase people buy according to their tastes and not according to their skin colour, but good luck telling that to a corporate suit whose had an overdose of california.

That beeing said, the problem with that is easily fixed if you actually allow people to edit those faces. If youve only got one asian face, thats fine if you can edit said face and end up with, gasp, more variation on it. Which is what most tripple A developers do anyway.

TL;DR: Sliders do the trick, add sliders.


First of all...
It needs to be said just how astounding the gameplay has been so far. Breathtaking graphics where detail in texture has no limit, and captivating character depth where I am certain to replay the game several times just to explore the many, many options! I was skeptical at first, as I always am, but Larian’s artists and development team have done an amazing job yet, and waiting a year to see the rest will be guaranteed torture.
However, it also brings excitement in knowing that we will be seeing more content, and hope that there will be improvements to fully utilize the game’s potential.
As there is the one thing I have been missing, which is what brought me to this thread...

Elves

Naturally, I know they exist in-game. Though in all its stunning beauty, Baldurs Gate 3 Early Access doesn’t yet have the alien features of the so lore-rich world of elves. It sounds shallow, but to me appearance is important— and with what I’ve seen thus far with the graphics, I know it must be important to other players too! Although we enjoy our eye-candy, it’s not just the exotic and odd beauty itself that compelled me to love the elven races, but rather their infinite lore. Elves are more than just humans with pointy ears and keen abilities, and it needs to show. Players need to be able to look at the elves and immediately tell that they are otherwordly beings with magical tales to tell, inviting them to explore.

The OP, Goldberry, and other members of the community have brought up many good examples on how this can be achieved! With BG3’s potential, I pray and roll with glee in hope that we will be seeing more of what makes elves the alien and captivating beings they have been and deserve to be forever more.

Thank you for bringing up this important topic, and thank you to Larian’s crew for the many enjoyable hours spent in BG3 so far.


Posted By: Zarangek Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 15/10/20 11:35 AM
Originally Posted by Uncle Lester
Completely agree. I should be able to say "that's an elf!" even without seeing a characters ears. Their facial features should imo be a bit outside of the human spectrum. For half-elves, one should take a look and think "hmm... either a fine-featured human or a heavy-featured elf?". Same for (half-)drow, of course.

As it is currently, the male elf head makes me think of a particularly sturdy-looking human peasant. Really, the jaw is huge! The eyes slant the opposite way, so to speak, which makes the character look somewhat... spaced out rather than keenly intelligent/of alien beauty as would be expected of an elf. (I wanted to say I was reminded of Oblivion faces, but this would be going too far...)

I would also add that I wish halflings had better proportions. They are said to be more or less like scaled-down humans in their lore, but in BG3 they are more reminiscent of real-life humans with dwarfism.


Well I was confused about Shadowheart being a human or elf had to examine her to tell for sure. Tieflings are what bought me in this game, I have never seen such a terrifying looking Tiefling (In a very, very good way) in a game before. My first Act 1 was for Tiefling warlock.
I have to agree Elves do not really look like Elves but my guess that is because 5th Editon say so, unfortunately.


Additionally I doubt we will receive any change in the way they look, we might get some new faces but that is it.
Posted By: Slippery Catfish Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 15/10/20 11:46 AM
Originally Posted by Maxximenez
Your friendly reminder that the yoked AF, 7 foot tall druid Halsin is a "wood elf".

Dude looks like a cream-colored orc.


He looks like a jacked up half elf to me, and even then his masculine as hell, Chad-like features shatter that. Take the point off his ears and the character is just a large human.

Whoops, I accidentally outlined the problem with BG3's elves.

Originally Posted by Zarangek

Well I was confused about Shadowheart being a human or elf had to examine her to tell for sure. Tieflings are what bought me in this game, I have never seen such a terrifying looking Tiefling (In a very, very good way) in a game before. My first Act 1 was for Tiefling warlock.
I have to agree Elves do not really look like Elves but my guess that is because 5th Editon say so, unfortunately.


5e kept Elves very elfy, excusing the changes made to Arvandor and all that business. OP put some art up on Page 1 that's all 5e material.
The Tieflings are amazingly done, seriously impressed by Larian here.
Posted By: Hoarfrost Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 15/10/20 11:47 AM
Not only this but the female faces in general are very masculine...
Posted By: Goldberry Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 15/10/20 11:48 AM
Originally Posted by Maxximenez
Your friendly reminder that the yoked AF, 7 foot tall druid Halsin is a "wood elf". Dude looks like a cream-colored orc.


Lol. Right? I must say that after finding half the grove were elves worshipping Silvanus (a human deity) and one wood elf showing admiration towards my drow character it was a relief to see that Halsin at least leaned towards neutral good, and that's all I looked at, I wanted to take the win.

Originally Posted by blindhamster
I think if you're going to include real world ethnicitites with elves, logically they should be tied to specific subraces.


I suppose that's one way to do it!

Originally Posted by Fira

Thank you for bringing up this important topic, and thank you to Larian’s crew for the many enjoyable hours spent in BG3 so far.


No, thank you. I find your post very touching. The reason I enjoy fantasy so much, is because it is an escape from reality. The least I want to encounter in a fantasy setting is anything that resembles our world, when it is supposed to be alien and magical.

Originally Posted by Zarangek
Additionally I doubt we will receive any change in the way they look, we might get some new faces but that is it.


Well that's cool! If we can get a couple of 'classic' elven looking heads, I'll take that as a win too. We can all be happy smile
Posted By: TheAscendent Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 15/10/20 01:15 PM
So does Astarion look enough like an Elf?
Posted By: blindhamster Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 15/10/20 01:34 PM
Originally Posted by TheAscendent
So does Astarion look enough like an Elf?


Responded in the other thread, and actually a few posts earlier in this one to this question.

I feel like Mods should merge the two elf threads. Kinda weird having two threads for essentially the same topic.
Posted By: nation Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 15/10/20 01:51 PM
+1

first post folks - be gentle

to throw in a related thought, and i may have missed this discussion on the forums already, but after playing around in the character creator is anyone else scratching their head wondering why Drow arent listed as another Elf subrace? I get the love that the dark elves get in the setting, but it just seems odd? Will the gray dwarves/deep gnomes also be differentiated from general dwarves/gnomes? That could be neat from an 'underdark' based race perspective, but idk it that is what larian is aiming for and it just seems like an odd game design/dev choice. Idk, along similar lines i suppose that tiefling could be grouped as planetouched along with aasimar and genasi (if we get all these options), and gith would breakdown into the githyanki, githzeri, (and maybe gith raiders?) so just thought it was odd to have drow separate from elf, but overall just a small observation from a big fan of the og bg games and dnd in general - really hoping for larian to use ea as an opportunity to make this game even better than it is currently as ive been really enjoying ea so far, but still think the game has a lot of growth potential within their current systems that we can give meaningful feedback on. thx!
Posted By: blindhamster Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 15/10/20 01:59 PM
yeah drow should just be a subrace of elf, its exactly what they are. Im assuming there are technical reasons though
Posted By: Goldberry Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 15/10/20 02:00 PM
Originally Posted by blindhamster
I feel like Mods should merge the two elf threads. Kinda weird having two threads for essentially the same topic.


No, please. This one has zero drama, lol. The other one is 8 pages, but probably 4 of which are people throwing accusations at each other. I'd very much prefer if we keep a civil conversation around here, at least being the OP I can -tryyyy- to stir people away from going off-topic and fighting.

Originally Posted by nation
+1
first post folks - be gentle


No problem, dear! Welcome to the forums smile

As for your question, I wouldn't know. Perhaps it has something to do with the scripting of the game, perhaps it has to do with the fact despite being elves, they are very, very different, far beyond a matter of subrace. I do remember in NWN2 there was a 'Planetouched' section with tieflings, genasi, and Aasimars if I recall correctly, but we do not know yet if those races will be included at all in this game. We shall wait and see.
Posted By: blindhamster Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 15/10/20 02:07 PM
Originally Posted by Goldberry
Originally Posted by blindhamster
I feel like Mods should merge the two elf threads. Kinda weird having two threads for essentially the same topic.


No, please. This one has zero drama, lol. The other one is 8 pages, but probably 4 of which people throwing accusations at each other.

Originally Posted by nation
+1
first post folks - be gentle


No problem, dear! Welcome to the forums smile

As for your question, I wouldn't know. Perhaps it has something to do with the scripting of the game, perhaps it has to do with the fact despite being elves, they are very, very different, far beyond a matter of subrace. I do remember in NWN2 there was a 'Planetouched' section with tieflings, genasi, and Aasimars if I recall correctly, but we do not know yet if those races will be included at all in this game. We shall wait and see.


D&D 5e phb has the example elf shown as Drizzt. A number of elves in the books refer to some specific drow characters as "elf", they're still elves and from a lore perspective, the only real thing that separates them is the curse put on them for their choice to follow Araushnee after her final betrayal of Corellon due to their slow manipulation by Wendonai. The Lady penitent trilogy had a bunch of drow have their curse be lifted due to them not having the mark of wendonai and their abandonment of the drow ways, similarly, at the end of the most recent drizzt book "relentless" there is another event that shows how similar they still are really. Wont say more than that due to spoilers.

I think it's just a technical thing for drow to be separate from elves - due to them wanting to have drow and basically "good drow" in BG3 for whatever reason, although IMO the seldarine drow shouldn't be called seldarine drow, they should be dark elves and not have drow colouring at all.

p.s. fair point against the merge, it's just I put a reasonably detailed rundown of the subraces for elves in the other one laugh
Posted By: Goldberry Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 15/10/20 02:15 PM
Originally Posted by blindhamster
D&D 5e phb has the example elf shown as Drizzt. A number of elves in the books refer to some specific drow characters as "elf", they're still elves and from a lore perspective, the only real thing that separates them is the curse put on them for their choice to follow Araushnee after her final betrayal of Corellon due to their slow manipulation by Wendonai. The Lady penitent trilogy had a bunch of drow have their curse be lifted due to them not having the mark of wendonai and their abandonment of the drow ways, similarly, at the end of the most recent drizzt book "relentless" there is another event that shows how similar they still are really. Wont say more than that due to spoilers.


Oh, I know they're still elves. When I describe them as 'different' I'm merely talking about their culture, their habitat, society, etc, besides the fact that they're intimate enemies. That's what I meant. The differences between drow and elves (any subrace) are more drastic than all of the elven subraces. If that makes sense? But I have no idea why the devs decided to put them in different race categories, I'm just wild guessing. I agree with you it's likely due to a technical reason.

Originally Posted by blindhamster

p.s. fair point against the merge, it's just I put a reasonably detailed rundown of the subraces for elves in the other one laugh


Feel free to post it in here as well! In fact, we can talk in private if you want so that I can add it to the first post of this thread. We can compile all official information that we have to make a stronger case smile

P.S: I also intend for this topic to be a general feedback on elves. I haven't added a lot more yet because I'm very slow with my playthrough.
Posted By: blindhamster Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 15/10/20 02:28 PM
Originally Posted by blindhamster
In Forgotten realms there are quite a few
High Elves
- Sun Elves: Regal looking, typically bronzed skin, they have hair colours of brown/red/copper/gold typically and their eyes are usually black, gold or silver
- Moon Elves: Pale skin, often with a blue or purple hue, hair colours covering all human ones plus silver and blue, their eyes are usually blue or green with gold flecks
- Star Elves: pale skin with gold, silver or red hair and tend to be particularly slender, their eyes are similar to moon elves

Wood Elves
- Copper Elves: tend to be broader and sturdier, tan or bronzed skin, copper, brown, black or golden blond hair with eyes of green, hazel or brown. Wood elves are technically one of the only races of elves native to Faerun, the reason for this is they come from intermingling of Wild Elves with other elves over many generations.
- Wild/Green Elves: tend toward darker skin tones from tanned to dark brown, usually have darker hair colour and eyes similar to copper elves.

Eladrin: Eladrin are Elves native to the feywild still, their appearance literally changes with the seasons, they look a lot like Sun Elves in terms of their regal appearance, but their hair, skin and eye colours change with the passing of each season, as does their personality.

Drow
- Lolthian Drow: Shorter than surface elves, they're graceful and regal looking, their skin is almost always shades of obsidian, purple, grey. brown or blue undertones differentiate them though, their eyes are almost always red, with violet and amber being rare exceptions, their hair is always white or off white. Their colouring is part of a curse put upon them by Corellon for their actions around the early crown wars.
- Dark Elves (Seldarine drow in this game): These drow have had Corellons curse lifted due to actions shortly before the spellplague. They have reverted to their original colourations (NOT how they're shown in the game) and look a lot like Wild/Green Elves for colouration.

Lythari: Esentially a unique non-evil breed of Elven werewolf that doesn't have a hybrid form, they're usually depicted as pale with grey or white hair both in elf and wolf form. But they're usually found in Wood Elf lands, so in theory make more sense to match their colouring to some extent.

Avariel: Winged Elves, their features are even more delicate than other elves, with eyes that are larger than most too, their eyes tend to be bright blues, greens or even purple, their skin colour isn't really described anywhere but the only art of them shown has been pale/tanned. Their hair and wings tend to be black/white/silver. Though the most well known Avariel, Aerie from BG2 has blond hair. Avariel are noted as being shorter than High or Wood elves in the same way that drow are.

Aquatic Elves: their build is probably the most sturdy of all the elves and tend to be tall. Their skin tends toward blues and greens, but sometimes browns or even silvers, their hair is usually blacks, greens, blues, browns or even red. Their eyes are usually black, blue, white, green or very rarely silver.


Regardless of the kind, they all have the angular features, almond eyes and pointed ears. None of them can grow facial hair or have body hair.

If Larian really want to include human ethnicities in the different elves, they should at least try and correlate the human ethnicities to those subraces and go from there. Right now the Elves are just /wrong/ and it's crazy because there are EXCELLENT resources available for multiple editions of D&D describing all the above.

Most notably for D&D 5e, Sword Coast Adventurers Guide which should honestly be a default inclusion for this game anyway, considering the setting.


The source for the above is Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide for 5e + Races of Faerun for 3/3.5 plus in the case of "Dark Elves" just my observations from lady penitent. smile
Posted By: Goldberry Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 15/10/20 02:36 PM
Originally Posted by blindhamster
The source for the above is Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide for 5e + Races of Faerun for 3/3.5 plus in the case of "Dark Elves" just my observations from lady penitent smile


Mmh! I do find it curious the large masses of people claiming that elves are 'white and blonde' and 'too caucasic'. Then you read the descriptions and you find out that the vast majority of them aren not actually white and blonde. There are so many possible combinations, from blues and green hues to very dark skin. Wood elves per instance are said to be the most populous of elves, and they're tan, and dark haired mostly.

On your thoughts about giving subraces ethnic hints, a random thought that occured to me was this elven depiction of 5e Player's Handbook:

[Linked Image]

She has the classic angular features, but also... Do I have a big imagination, or she kind of looks like Rihanna? :'D This is an excellent example of an ethnic looking elf, in my opinion.

[Linked Image]








I think using inspiration from African ethnic groups would work well for Wild Elves, Copper Elves would probably be more like mixed background people because Copper Elves are exactly that, a mix of Wild Elves and the other Elven types. Greek ethnic inspiration seems like a good fit for Sun Elves IMO. Moon Elves and Star Elves physically are probably the ones to give the more anglo caucasian appearance. If the were to branch out further, I'm not sure about "asian" (which is a very generic term sadly) inspiration for any of them, Eladrin might be an interesting one to consider tying a bit of Japanese influence to, considering their art in Volo's Guide. Drow would potentially fit following the same pattern as Wild Elves, considering their background as the Dark Elves were originally from the same regions as the Green/Wild Elves.

However, with all the above, I think you'd still want to:
  • adjust eyes to be more almond shaped
  • add sharper, more angled, more defined jawline and cheekbones
  • make the nose a little narrower
  • reduce chin width to accent the more angled jawline
  • increase the angle of brows slightly
  • make the face a bit more slender

Originally Posted by Goldberry
Originally Posted by blindhamster
The source for the above is Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide for 5e + Races of Faerun for 3/3.5 plus in the case of "Dark Elves" just my observations from lady penitent smile


Mmh! I do find it curious the large masses of people claiming that elves are 'white and blonde' and 'too caucasic'. Then you read the descriptions and you find out that the vast majority of them aren not actually white and blonde. There are so many possible combinations, from blues and green hues to very dark skin. Wood elves per instance are said to be the most populous of elves, and they're tan, and dark haired mostly.

On your thoughts about giving subraces ethnic hints, a random thought that occured to me was this elven depiction of 5e Player's Handbook:

[Linked Image]

She has the classic angular features, but also... Do I have a big imagination, or she kind of looks like Rihanna? :'D This is an excellent example of an ethnic looking elf, in my opinion.

[Linked Image]






Not just you. Totally looks like a Rihanna-Elf!




Originally Posted by blindhamster
I think using inspiration from African ethnic groups would work well for Wild Elves, Copper Elves would probably be more like mixed background people because Copper Elves are exactly that, a mix of Wild Elves and the other Elven types. Greek ethnic inspiration seems like a good fit for Sun Elves IMO. Moon Elves and Star Elves physically are probably the ones to give the more anglo caucasian appearance. If the were to branch out further, I'm not sure about "asian" (which is a very generic term sadly) inspiration for any of them, Eladrin might be an interesting one to consider tying a bit of Japanese influence to, considering their art in Volo's Guide. Drow would potentially fit following the same pattern as Wild Elves, considering their background as the Dark Elves were originally from the same regions as the Green/Wild Elves.

However, with all the above, I think you'd still want to:
  • adjust eyes to be more almond shaped
  • add sharper, more angled, more defined jawline and cheekbones
  • make the nose a little narrower
  • reduce chin width to accent the more angled jawline
  • increase the angle of brows slightly
  • make the face a bit more slender



I like your ideas and would be happy to see something like this in-game in the future smile
Originally Posted by Usako

Originally Posted by blindhamster
I think using inspiration from African ethnic groups would work well for Wild Elves, Copper Elves would probably be more like mixed background people because Copper Elves are exactly that, a mix of Wild Elves and the other Elven types. Greek ethnic inspiration seems like a good fit for Sun Elves IMO. Moon Elves and Star Elves physically are probably the ones to give the more anglo caucasian appearance. If the were to branch out further, I'm not sure about "asian" (which is a very generic term sadly) inspiration for any of them, Eladrin might be an interesting one to consider tying a bit of Japanese influence to, considering their art in Volo's Guide. Drow would potentially fit following the same pattern as Wild Elves, considering their background as the Dark Elves were originally from the same regions as the Green/Wild Elves.

However, with all the above, I think you'd still want to:
  • adjust eyes to be more almond shaped
  • add sharper, more angled, more defined jawline and cheekbones
  • make the nose a little narrower
  • reduce chin width to accent the more angled jawline
  • increase the angle of brows slightly
  • make the face a bit more slender



I like your ideas and would be happy to see something like this in-game in the future smile


So, what would the above mean for current character creation options for currently available races?

well...
High elves would have more european features, with them ranging from more anglo looking to greek/italian. The colourations would be:
Skin: Pale, tanned/bronze tones, pale skin tones with a blue hue, pale skin tones with a purple hue.
Hair: Blondes, Browns, Blacks, Reds, Blues, Whites, Golds, Silvers, Coppers
Eyes: Blacks, Golds, Silvers, Blue/Green with Gold Flecks, human colours.

Wood elves would be more african and mixed heritage features. Their actual bodies in theory, if a slider system was added, should probably have slightly more room for broader, sturdier appearance than high elves.
Skin: tanned/bronzed through to very dark browns
Hair: Copper, Brown, Blond, Black, Gold, Reds
Eyes: Greens, Hazels, Browns, possibly silver, possibly black

Lolthian Drow would be again more african for their features like Wild Elves, they should be shorter than high and wood elves.
Skin: shades of obsidian, purple, grey. brown or blue undertones, possibly include some lighter versions of those too as a nod to a lot of art.
Hair: various whites and off whites
Eyes: Reds, Purples, Ambers

Seldarine Drow should be pretty similar to Wood Elves for options, but be shorter like drow and lack the mixed heritage faces.

Reminding again that those real world ethnicities would be a starting point for elven faces, but they'd all be adjusted based on the bullet point list above.

Originally Posted by blindhamster
Originally Posted by TheAscendent
So does Astarion look enough like an Elf?


Responded in the other thread, and actually a few posts earlier in this one to this question.

I feel like Mods should merge the two elf threads. Kinda weird having two threads for essentially the same topic.


+1
Posted By: EndymionSelene Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 17/10/20 02:29 AM

Originally Posted by ZawiszaTheBlack

By the way, did you notice that all Elves in the game are as tall as human?


Elves should be as tall as humans or even taller like in Norse mythology and Tolkiens work DnD felt Elves were to perfect so they made them manlets but everyone rightfully ignores it.
Posted By: Newtinmpls Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 17/10/20 03:29 AM
My understanding is in the older tales and histories elves were always taller, thinner and "more ethereal" than stumpy humans.
Posted By: deadsanta Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 17/10/20 03:51 AM
Originally Posted by Newtinmpls
My understanding is in the older tales and histories elves were always taller, thinner and "more ethereal" than stumpy humans.

Nope, they were tiny in most stories, think "wee folk", or they were monstrous and misshapen like goblins, animals mixed with humans.

Posted By: Postwave Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 17/10/20 04:02 AM
Originally Posted by EndymionSelene

Originally Posted by ZawiszaTheBlack

By the way, did you notice that all Elves in the game are as tall as human?


Elves should be as tall as humans or even taller like in Norse mythology and Tolkiens work DnD felt Elves were to perfect so they made them manlets but everyone rightfully ignores it.


Forgotten Realms is not Tolkien.
Posted By: Zandilar Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 17/10/20 06:06 AM
Originally Posted by WarBaby2

Also, true, but these are Realms (D&D) elves we are talking about, and they have been very thoroughly described and illustrated for abour 30 years now, and one of the biggest reasons why they don't just look "like beautiful humans" is, that they are literally alien to Abeir Toril... like dwarves, they have no genetic ancestry with the planet's native humans, hence why they only vaguely resemble them, at most.

Contrary to, for instance, LotR, where the ancient Elves basically originated all intelligent live... even Orks and Goblins.


If you've been paying attention to illustrations in DnD you'll know that no two editions have the same kind of art style, and even within a single edition you'll find a wide variety of depictions, and no two are identical.

Look at the depiction of Drizzt on pg 21 of the 5e PHB, compare to the elf in pg 25, the one on pg 44, the bard on pg 51 (this one is a half elf I think), then you have a moon elf and a wood elf druid on pg 64 and 67 respectively. The ranger on pg 89 and the rogue on pg 91. Then we have another two spellcasting elves on pg 138 and 169. They all look, with like one exception (pg 138), like humans with funny ears and strange colours... But they're all slightly different in style too. The elven faces in BG3 are, afaic, elven enough for me.

FWIW Humans are just as much planar interlopers as the other races. It is vaguely implied that the original humans came from Earth (see the variety of human mythology represented - everyone from Tyr, Tymora/Beshaba (who together were originally the Greek goddess Tyche), practically the whole Egyptian pantheon (Sharess = Bast, for example), and gods from the Babylonian pantheon etc). Humans can also breed with elves to produce fertile offspring (half elves), which implies they are much closer on a genetic level than you'd think.

Z.
Posted By: blindhamster Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 17/10/20 02:03 PM
Originally Posted by Postwave
Originally Posted by EndymionSelene

Originally Posted by ZawiszaTheBlack

By the way, did you notice that all Elves in the game are as tall as human?


Elves should be as tall as humans or even taller like in Norse mythology and Tolkiens work DnD felt Elves were to perfect so they made them manlets but everyone rightfully ignores it.


Forgotten Realms is not Tolkien.



No, but forgotten realms elves have been as tall as humans since at least 3rd edition, even when the phb ones were not.
Posted By: Goldberry Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 19/10/20 05:34 PM
Originally Posted by Zandilar

If you've been paying attention to illustrations in DnD you'll know that no two editions have the same kind of art style, and even within a single edition you'll find a wide variety of depictions, and no two are identical.


Fair enough. Depictions vary from artist to artist, this much is true. However, some traits have been consistent, and I have attached 5e art to the very first post of this thread, in case you did not see.

It all boils down to the same though, specially considering just how much the art varies... That, ideally, it would be amazing if there were options for everyone's taste.
Posted By: Sharet Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 19/10/20 05:48 PM
Thank you for the time, effort and politeness you put in this post Goldberry!
Totally agree with you smile
Posted By: Argonaut Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 19/10/20 06:15 PM
Absolutely based.

It does my heart good to see such a sound argument backed up by evidence from all major sources, in this case 5e official material and artwork and descriptions from FRCS. And there is not much that I could add past my total support for the return to source in more way than one. I would like to acknowledge that Larian may have had noble intentions but the reality is that the changes made are not producing the results they had desired or the effects that they had hoped for and there is no shame in that. I don't believe the humanization of elves has done anything other than take away something magical and intriguing from the high fantasy genre in every dimension.

Now that I have played a few more hours of Baldur's Gate 3 Early Access perhaps more than I dare to admit... I feel like the content of this thread is now even more important to lift to attention. The game itself is really great, and certain enemies terrifying, but I haven't seen a single elf that doesn't just look like a human with pointy ears.

I also have other feedback (we need to talk about the bears), but as mentioned somewhere else there must be another way to forward it to the developers of Larian consequently for them to see and be aware of, so if anyone got advice, please share! This thread is otherwise a great place for players to pile up the constructive feedback for our elves!

Thread's too long to read the whole thing but:

I think this is probably just an EA issue? Agreed though, I was definitely a bit sad when I realized that Humans, Elves, Half-Elves, and tieflings all share the same body model. Isn't that probably just because the bodies are lower development priority at this point though?

Also, the female Githyanki is just the generic female model as well I believe.

Elves should DEFINITELY get their own body model at the very least, and yeah, the heads and facial hair feel way too human.

Thanks guys!
+1 Very much agree that the current half-elven faces are more 'elven' than the elven faces we have!

Those looking to make the half-elven faces available for their elves, please look into the mod HERE by AlanaSP: Custom Character Enhancer.
Originally Posted by henbit
Thread's too long to read the whole thing but:

I think this is probably just an EA issue? Agreed though, I was definitely a bit sad when I realized that Humans, Elves, Half-Elves, and tieflings all share the same body model. Isn't that probably just because the bodies are lower development priority at this point though?

Also, the female Githyanki is just the generic female model as well I believe.

Elves should DEFINITELY get their own body model at the very least, and yeah, the heads and facial hair feel way too human.

Thanks guys!


I HOPE it's an EA thing. I wasn't 100% sure since I haven't played EA (so haven't analysed the models/animations closely), but that's disappointing - especially when you look at dwarves, who have their own walking animation.
Posted By: Popsculpture Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 22/10/20 09:22 PM
I would post this in the feedback section if you haven't already; it would likely get more Dev eyes.
Posted By: Roxeus Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 23/10/20 03:24 AM
Muy cierto me tuve que hacer un semi elfo por que tenían más características de belleza pero igual como tu dices parecen muy humanos los elfos. Esperemos que hagan cambios o tocara esperar a los modders que hagan ese cambio. por cierto como subes fotos aca ?
Posted By: Eddiar Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 23/10/20 03:25 AM
Maybe slightly tilt the eyes?
Posted By: Roxeus Re: Elves are not Elven - 23/10/20 03:34 AM
Consulta encontraste diferencia en caras ? entre subrazas yo las veía todas igual D;!!!!
Posted By: FatePeddler Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 23/10/20 03:34 AM
OP tis is Larian's version on Elves. They are a fantasy race, you can make them look however you want.
Posted By: Eddiar Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 23/10/20 04:32 AM
Originally Posted by FatePeddler
OP tis is Larian's version on Elves. They are a fantasy race, you can make them look however you want.


You kind of cant.
You need sliders to create what you want. Otherwise you are stuck with the half a dozen faces that Larian has given you.
Posted By: FatePeddler Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 23/10/20 05:12 AM
Originally Posted by Eddiar
Originally Posted by FatePeddler
OP tis is Larian's version on Elves. They are a fantasy race, you can make them look however you want.


You kind of cant.
You need sliders to create what you want. Otherwise you are stuck with the half a dozen faces that Larian has given you.


I'm talking about Larian can make the elves how they want because they are a fantasy race, and who decides what a made up fantasy race *should* look like?

Elves in DOS2 looked like wood carvings, Elves in Dragon Age looked alien, Elves in Dragon Quest are pink skinned, with fairy wings, and Elves in LoTRs look like Humans with pointy ears.

Stop being the elf police guys :X.
Posted By: BrianDavion Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 23/10/20 05:50 AM
Originally Posted by FatePeddler
Originally Posted by Eddiar
Originally Posted by FatePeddler
OP tis is Larian's version on Elves. They are a fantasy race, you can make them look however you want.


You kind of cant.
You need sliders to create what you want. Otherwise you are stuck with the half a dozen faces that Larian has given you.


I'm talking about Larian can make the elves how they want because they are a fantasy race, and who decides what a made up fantasy race *should* look like?

Elves in DOS2 looked like wood carvings, Elves in Dragon Age looked alien, Elves in Dragon Quest are pink skinned, with fairy wings, and Elves in LoTRs look like Humans with pointy ears.

Stop being the elf police guys :X.



except fatepeddler, this isn't Larian's IP. this is D&D. And we're saying what the IP says elves look like. you're doing the equivilant of saying "ohh well it's just a sciencie fiction game, aliens can look like whatever they want" on a thread telling a video game maker that "no wookies are not bald with squid tentacles for hair"
Posted By: Eddiar Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 23/10/20 05:51 AM
Originally Posted by FatePeddler
Originally Posted by Eddiar
Originally Posted by FatePeddler
OP tis is Larian's version on Elves. They are a fantasy race, you can make them look however you want.


You kind of cant.
You need sliders to create what you want. Otherwise you are stuck with the half a dozen faces that Larian has given you.


I'm talking about Larian can make the elves how they want because they are a fantasy race, and who decides what a made up fantasy race *should* look like?

Elves in DOS2 looked like wood carvings, Elves in Dragon Age looked alien, Elves in Dragon Quest are pink skinned, with fairy wings, and Elves in LoTRs look like Humans with pointy ears.

Stop being the elf police guys :X.


I mean they can.
And its EA so I guess some people are not a fan of this interpretation and are voicing it.
Posted By: FatePeddler Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 23/10/20 05:52 AM
Originally Posted by BrianDavion
Originally Posted by FatePeddler
Originally Posted by Eddiar
Originally Posted by FatePeddler
OP tis is Larian's version on Elves. They are a fantasy race, you can make them look however you want.


You kind of cant.
You need sliders to create what you want. Otherwise you are stuck with the half a dozen faces that Larian has given you.


I'm talking about Larian can make the elves how they want because they are a fantasy race, and who decides what a made up fantasy race *should* look like?

Elves in DOS2 looked like wood carvings, Elves in Dragon Age looked alien, Elves in Dragon Quest are pink skinned, with fairy wings, and Elves in LoTRs look like Humans with pointy ears.

Stop being the elf police guys :X.



except fatepeddler, this isn't Larian's IP. this is D&D. And we're saying what the IP says elves look like. you're doing the equivilant of saying "ohh well it's just a sciencie fiction game, aliens can look like whatever they want" on a thread telling a video game maker that "no wookies are not bald with squid tentacles for hair"



They are Larian's Elves, and where did DND get Elves from? DND got them from J.R.R. Tolkien! It doesn't matter what they look like, when you read The Lord of the Rings you could've visualised them differently to how they were presented in the films.

They are a fantasy race, the creator can make them look how they wish. The same with a DND playthrough, Elves could be different in one playthrough compared to the next.
Posted By: Eddiar Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 23/10/20 06:03 AM
Originally Posted by FatePeddler

They are a fantasy race, the creator can make them look how they wish. The same with a DND playthrough, Elves could be different in one playthrough compared to the next.



And Larian has created an EA specifically for feedback and discussion.
And this is just that.

I will tell you the same thing to other players who try to tell people they can't have X or do Y.
Stop it.
Go do something more constructive.
Posted By: FatePeddler Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 23/10/20 06:08 AM
Originally Posted by Eddiar
Originally Posted by FatePeddler

They are a fantasy race, the creator can make them look how they wish. The same with a DND playthrough, Elves could be different in one playthrough compared to the next.



And Larian has created an EA specifically for feedback and discussion.
And this is just that.

I will tell you the same thing to other players who try to tell people they can't have X or do Y.
Stop it.
Go do something more constructive.


You're very aggressive.

I don't understand why people can't just adjust it to their liking in their own head canon, why must people have everyone available to them in game?
Posted By: Eddiar Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 23/10/20 06:17 AM
Originally Posted by FatePeddler
Originally Posted by Eddiar
Originally Posted by FatePeddler

They are a fantasy race, the creator can make them look how they wish. The same with a DND playthrough, Elves could be different in one playthrough compared to the next.



And Larian has created an EA specifically for feedback and discussion.
And this is just that.

I will tell you the same thing to other players who try to tell people they can't have X or do Y.
Stop it.
Go do something more constructive.


You're very aggressive.

I don't understand why people can't just adjust it to their liking in their own head canon, why must people have everyone available to them in game?


And I can't understand why people go on the internet, assume they are some sort of spokesperson for a company and defend that said company's actions. As they perceive them anyway. Then proceed to tell any dissenting voice regardless of how constructive they are to tear them down and belittle them.
What is even more interesting these sort of people take some sort of sanctimonious tone like they know better or are revealing facts that were previously unknown to the other posters.

What I find ironic is that such posters accuse others of headcanon when obviously its the otherside that is referencing materials and descriptions of the original authors of this piece of make believe fantasy. Not to mention everything so far presented is under construction and review until a full release and this company has explicitly said is looking for constructive feedback and concerns.

Anyway. To sum up.
Don't be a party pooper and get off your highhorse.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 23/10/20 07:43 AM
Interesting ... hope this will be noticed, and implemented. :3
Posted By: Argonaut Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 23/10/20 09:38 AM
@FatePeddler
It is using the baldurs gate brand, D&D brand and FR setting. In all of these elves have a consistent description and aesthetic. Moving past that elves originate from northern mythologies. Changing this and saying it is your interpretation is creative bankruptcy. I don't remember much complaint about how elves where portrayed in their own IPs.
Posted By: Neleothesze Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 23/10/20 11:15 AM
Lovely post, Goldberry. Very well documented.

+1 on wanting elven faces that are closer to how they've been depicted in DnD in the past.

My opinion is that if they got a deal with WotC to make a DnD game, I say they should stick close to the source material. Elves are not pointy-eared humans. If they already have these faces, it's fine, no one is asking them to take them out, but rather to add more faces, and have at least a few that conform to previously established elven aesthetics.
Posted By: Goldberry Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 23/10/20 02:29 PM
Originally Posted by FatePeddler
I'm talking about Larian can make the elves how they want because they are a fantasy race, and who decides what a made up fantasy race *should* look like?

Elves in DOS2 looked like wood carvings, Elves in Dragon Age looked alien, Elves in Dragon Quest are pink skinned, with fairy wings, and Elves in LoTRs look like Humans with pointy ears.

Stop being the elf police guys :X.


There is well documented source about the way elves are supposed to look like. Clearly, after six pages of a thread, there is also people out there who cares. I understand if you don't, though. And that is okay smile

Let's just not make an argument over it back and forth, I don't want this thread to be full of people throwing accusations and drama needlessly, let's try to keep it positive and constructive. This is not about demanding anything, or policing anything. Most of us have very deep feelings when it comes to BG and DND, for many of us it is a childhood thing, and we care for the proper representation. There is nothing wrong with talking about that.

P.S: Thank you for all the positive feedback and kind words! I can't reply to everyone personally, so just... Thank you! smile

Posted By: Nolowin Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 24/10/20 05:07 AM
Thanks for making this its own thread!

But yes, 100% agreed. I also wondered if there was some sort of oversight and the male half-elven faces got swapped with the full elf ones. I'm not even against the devs giving the elves a more "human" look, such as Astarion, who I think is a good compromise.
And even Astarion is far more fine-featured than just about every male elf head in the character creator. The one you posted in the opening could, imo, almost work as a dwarf face if you gave him a beard lol.
Posted By: Slippery Catfish Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 28/10/20 02:12 AM
Originally Posted by Nolowin
Thanks for making this its own thread!

But yes, 100% agreed. I also wondered if there was some sort of oversight and the male half-elven faces got swapped with the full elf ones. I'm not even against the devs giving the elves a more "human" look, such as Astarion, who I think is a good compromise.
And even Astarion is far more fine-featured than just about every male elf head in the character creator. The one you posted in the opening could, imo, almost work as a dwarf face if you gave him a beard lol.


I'm not exactly his #1 fan but I'm looking forward to playing as Astarion - as all the origin characters we've seen so far! His appearance is marketable and most people seem to like it, so I think Larian will stick with it without any hard changes, but I'd definitely love to see more lore-friendly face options for custom elves.

This does leave the problem of the lore-friendly faces standing alongside the marketable faces in the game world, but you can't have everything and that topic's already been well covered in here. Suffice to say it'd be jarring but better than nothing at all. Maybe Larian could consult with WotC about a reason for the differing faces?
Posted By: BrianDavion Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 28/10/20 02:41 AM
Originally Posted by Argonaut
@FatePeddler
It is using the baldurs gate brand, D&D brand and FR setting. In all of these elves have a consistent description and aesthetic. Moving past that elves originate from northern mythologies. Changing this and saying it is your interpretation is creative bankruptcy. I don't remember much complaint about how elves where portrayed in their own IPs.


exactly this, these stopped being Larian's elves when they got permission to slap the D&D and forgotten realms label on the game now the game is part of a eistablished IP, it's not more differant then in Larian did KOTOR 3 and wookies for some reason had tails. Giving Larian feedback on their faces not looking quite right, is honestly valid, because for fans of the franchise, stuff like that is important. Larian managed to catch that elves trance rather then sleep. so that deserves applause, but yeah, suggesting they make elven faces more angular because "they don't quite work right" is legit feedback
Posted By: Valis Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 29/10/20 01:30 PM
The male elves all look terrible.

Drow 'selective breeding' my ass.
Posted By: Imora DalSyn Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 29/10/20 08:11 PM
Originally Posted by ZawiszaTheBlack
Male Elf faces are joke. Most of them look like 80s fantasy-action movie hero with square jaw and hairy chest. LOL
I also don't understand Asian faces, it doesn't make sense for Elves, but makes a lot of sense for humans.

On the other hand elven design of Forgotten Realms changed through years and it's closer to human (the eyes are not that slanted anymore). Ofc closer to human doesn't mean big square jaw.
By the way, did you notice that all Elves in the game are as tall as human?

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]



Heh, Asian faces. My dwarf has one very Asian looking at certain angles...
Posted By: Uncle Lester Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 29/10/20 08:54 PM
Originally Posted by Imora DalSyn
Heh, Asian faces. My dwarf has one very Asian looking at certain angles...


The female dwarf head? It's quite funny in that when I looked at it in character creator, it seemed quite fitting for a (relatively fine-featured) dwarven lady, but then I saw a screenshot (different angle, as you say) and it looked like an angry Asian mom.
Posted By: Vortex138 Re: Elves are not Elven - 29/10/20 09:38 PM
i will throw my $.02 here and agree with the elves not looking quite elven. The characteristics of an elf is angular features, almond shaped eyes, and a thin, elegant build. They are supposed to look almost fragile, even the fighters that rely more on dexterity than strength for their attacks. An elf will build strength, but never look like they large muscles. Kind of like getting wiry as opposed to muscular. In D&D, on average, they are slightly shorter than humans. Males being around 5'6", where females will be get to be around 5'4". Eyes tend to be very light or bright colors, mostly greens, blues, or gold. Very little rounding to the features, more sharpness. Anyway, just trying to help.
Posted By: Goldberry Re: Elves are not Elven - 31/10/20 09:14 PM
Originally Posted by Valis
The male elves all look terrible.

Drow 'selective breeding' my ass.



Yeeep. Drow and surface elves should look different in theory, considering they do selective breeding.
Posted By: DistantStranger Re: Elves are not Elven - 31/10/20 09:26 PM
+1.

If I can't go Aasimar Paladin I will be an Elven Arcane Trickster so this is pertinent to my interests
Posted By: Slippery Catfish Re: Elves are not Elven - 03/11/20 06:51 AM
I figured this would be a good place to pose my query, what with it being all about Elves and lore accuracy (Very minor spoilers about appearance of an NPC ahead):

Astarion's master Cazador looks suspiciously elf-like, but he's got facial hair - a little goatee, but still something. Elves don't grow that at all, and even at a stretch Drow males usually just grow sideburns. Does anyone know what race Cazador is supposed to be? An unusual tiefling, maybe?

I hope it's not an elf and Larian tossed out the no facial hair thing they remembered to keep on the character creator.

Maybe Cazador is an elf and just wears fake facial hair to feel special? :P
Posted By: Abits Re: Elves are not Elven - 03/11/20 07:36 AM
Or a half elf...
Posted By: Slippery Catfish Re: Elves are not Elven - 03/11/20 07:41 AM
It was pointed out to me that his ears are waaay too long and pointy for a half elf, or I'd agree with you.
Posted By: Goldberry Re: Elves are not Elven - 03/11/20 08:20 PM
His ears do look too long, sadly the only indicative in this game that a creature is an elf. He might be a half-elf though, yet again, being unable to differentiate them is odd.

Just like there are tieflings everywhere, there are elves and half elves everywhere and all of them are very humanized in all regards, from appeareance to behaviour.

Posted By: KillerRabbit Re: Elves are not Elven - 03/11/20 08:31 PM
Small bump for this thread.

I don't think we need to eliminate any heads but some "otherworldly" heads would be nice. I like my freckle faced beauty but I'd also like a character who didn't seem to belong in the real world.
Posted By: Valsharra Re: Elves are not Elven - 03/11/20 09:15 PM
+1 for making the elf heads more elven! I haven’t played around with anything other than female drow in character creator yet but seeing those male elf and half-elf heads next to each other - I have to wonder if it’s an EA bug and they were meant to be the other way around? Agree with others that Astarion looks decent in terms of elven features, though.

Also I didn’t even realize that Halsin is supposed to be a full-blooded elf until reading this thread. I had assumed that he must be a half-elf or a human with an even smaller percentage of elven blood, and the only reason I thought he must have some elven blood is his ears. Otherwise I would have thought he was full-blooded human.
Posted By: Xatasha Re: Elves are not Elven - 03/11/20 10:54 PM
As a PC.........there should be as many options as possible since the players imagination is the important thing. As for NPCs they should mostly stick to stereotypes as this will help define a race and allow players a baseline as to what a standard race member should look like. As a table top GM this is a great way for background information.

So, for all races we need more options and ways to customize our characters but also give the baseline looks as well
Posted By: Goldberry Re: Elves are not Elven - 05/11/20 10:12 PM
Originally Posted by Xatasha
As a PC.........there should be as many options as possible since the players imagination is the important thing. As for NPCs they should mostly stick to stereotypes as this will help define a race and allow players a baseline as to what a standard race member should look like. As a table top GM this is a great way for background information.

So, for all races we need more options and ways to customize our characters but also give the baseline looks as well


My thoughts as well! I was really hoping they would go that route but so far I have seen very little of race specific content, switch the appeareance and most NPCs could really be any race.
Posted By: Tarlonniel Re: Elves are not Elven - 08/11/20 02:56 PM
I'm throwing in my support here (and compliments to Goldberry for all the work put into this - give my regards to Tom Bombadil, BTW).

After seeing the weird, interesting stuff Larian did with elves in OS2, I had high expectations for how they'd handle the semi-alien beings of this setting. Apparently they went the "humans with pointy ears" route instead. Very disappointing.
Posted By: Surface R Re: Elves are not Elven - 09/11/20 03:20 PM
I dont have much interest in this, but for the sake of the whole fantasy setting ... verisimilitude, spit... blargh... what a disgusting word, it would be preferable to have this race be at least a bit more original then just "pretty humans" they were morphed into.

Maybe the bodies could be made slender and not as tall as humans, maybe not. Maybe the facial shapes can be adjusted a bit like already covered here.

But i would like to suggest one relatively very easy to implement addition, that although it may not be supported by the actual official lore material - which btw, stole most of their fantasy races ideas from J.R.R Tolkien and turned them into mass marketing product - would make Elves and their hybrid variants stand out in a very recognizable and unique way.

We already have several types of demonic eyes based around the concept of black sclera and radiant irises.

I suggest elves get their own unique types of eyes which would be full color iris and sclera (the white part) with some kind of a pupil. The sclera and the iris would be of the same color with options of different color variations, darker and lighter blue or green and so on. These kinds of eyes would very visibly present an "alien" and "fey" aspect of another different race. While Tieflings have their demonic eyes, Elves should have the "heavenly variant" as a contrast. The iris and the pupil can also be shaped a little differently to enhance the sense of otherness.
Posted By: DanteYoda Re: Elves are not Elven - 10/11/20 03:46 AM
Actually real elves should be the size of a halfling or a gnome.. if you want to get technical.. Tolkien changed elves to be man-sized, D&D just copied Tolkien.

I assume BG3 is following wotc which imo is pretty far and gone from original D&D..

[Linked Image]


Some people do look like Elves to me.
Posted By: Dez Re: Elves are not Elven - 10/11/20 08:53 PM
I also reacted to the elves not looking very elvish - ESPECIALLY the male ones, most of their faces just had me like "??????" ...

There was literally like 1 male face and 2 female faces that I am okay with for elves - rest just didn't feel elven at all to me.

However, I'll give Larian the benefit of the doubt and ASSUME that the small sample pool is because the game is in EA. One can hope, at least.

And, I also reacted to there being hardly any lines appointed to elves. I believe there is one with SH (?) and one with the dream-person ("Dafork, I am an elf, why am I dreaming?")... I hope they got some more flagged lines in general (not just for elves) coming! ^_^ (oh, and also BUMP! Larian, take notes!! frown )
Posted By: Goldberry Re: Elves are not Elven - 18/11/20 06:16 PM
Originally Posted by Dez
And, I also reacted to there being hardly any lines appointed to elves. I believe there is one with SH (?) and one with the dream-person ("Dafork, I am an elf, why am I dreaming?")... I hope they got some more flagged lines in general (not just for elves) coming! ^_^ (oh, and also BUMP! Larian, take notes!! frown )


Yep. The few elven lines I found were rather shallow and silly. There should have been special interactions with Kagha, I know for sure I'd like to shame her about worshipping a human god :'D (Even though it isn't true.)
Posted By: Xeneize Re: Elves are not Elven - 18/11/20 10:12 PM
A beautiful original post. As an all time fan of elves, I'd like them represented a little better. The suggestions on this thread could go a long way.
Posted By: 1varangian Re: Elves are not Elven - 18/11/20 11:14 PM
Maybe the current elven heads will be available for humans after they put in the actual elven heads?

I don't usually like races looking too weird or fantastical, but BG3 elves do look completely human. Even the LotR elves in the movie look more elven, and they were played by humans.
Posted By: Tarlonniel Re: Elves are not Elven - 19/11/20 01:44 AM
Originally Posted by Goldberry
There should have been special interactions with Kagha, I know for sure I'd like to shame her about worshipping a human god :'D (Even though it isn't true.)


Wood elves get a special interaction with Kagha. I don't remember them getting unique lines anywhere else, though (aside from the few generic elven ones).

But I should give Larian props for the "dream sequences" you get if you rest right after the tutorial, before recruiting anyone. Each variety of elf imagines something different.
Posted By: Soul-Scar Re: Elves are not Elven - 19/11/20 03:29 AM
That first picture of elf and half elf is hilarious. The elf looks like you stuck pointy rears on a mutant human that injects steroids directly into into his chin before doing a 250lb bench press with his lips. A chin so square you hang a breast plate on each side of his face.

The examples of "real elf" are perfect.
Posted By: Goldberry Re: Elves are not Elven - 20/11/20 05:58 AM
Thank you all so much for your positive responses, I was not expecting so many people to feel similarly! I am most pleasantly surprised!

Originally Posted by Tarlonniel

Wood elves get a special interaction with Kagha. I don't remember them getting unique lines anywhere else, though (aside from the few generic elven ones).


I know, that's why I said I was expecting to be able to deity-shame her, lol! The special wood elf line combined with all of the elven NPCs around the druid grove make it seem as though it is standart for a wood elf to worship Silvanus.
And while some wood elves do, the Seldarine are literally their ancestors, so it makes so much more sense to go with Rillifane. Anyways, I get that not every deity gets to be included in the game, there are so many! But all the details add up.
Posted By: KillerRabbit Re: Elves are not Elven - 20/11/20 07:04 AM
Drow also have a unique dialogue with her.

Agreed with @Goldberry, this is something that should be noted. Elves who worship human deities take themselves out of the cycle of reincarnation, to leave the elven gods behind is to leave the elven community for all of eternity.
Posted By: Tarlonniel Re: Elves are not Elven - 20/11/20 02:05 PM
Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
Elves who worship human deities take themselves out of the cycle of reincarnation, to leave the elven gods behind is to leave the elven community for all of eternity.


The whole idea of elves having special connections with each other (and their gods) seems to have vanished. No special elf-related dialogue with Astarion at all. I might be hopelessly out of date - are communing and bonding even things in the lore anymore?
Posted By: Dexai Re: Elves are not Elven - 20/11/20 02:18 PM
Originally Posted by DanteYoda
Actually real elves should be the size of a halfling or a gnome.. if you want to get technical.. Tolkien changed elves to be man-sized, D&D just copied Tolkien.


Real elves should be made of mist!
Posted By: KillerRabbit Re: Elves are not Elven - 20/11/20 05:03 PM
Reverie seems to have changed. It's now connected to memory and the recall of past lives. It's not clear if other elven souls still commune with one another in reverie. Although its certainly possible that Tav and Astarian might discover that they knew each other in previous lives. Elves can also choose to avoid reverie and sleep instead where they will dream and sometimes the dreams are messages from Sehanine Moonbow. Drow can dream but don't remember past lives -- just darkness.
Posted By: Zellin Re: Elves are not Elven - 21/11/20 08:20 AM
Agreed with OP, elves appearance needs some additional work in overall. Some heads should be moved from elves to half-elves (mongolian and african for sure), some other heads should be moved from half-elves to elves. Halsin needs either appearance rework, either change of race to half-elf.

And this thread should be moved to suggestions and feedback section. It's quite important feedback, cause now elves are just humans with pointy ears and that's sad.
I kind of agree here and I really hope that the Elf face templates in the character creator are just placeholders tbh.

I'm all for inclusivity however, so here's a bunch of faces I think would work fine for elves while still allowing representation. Elfin Faces personal headcanon examples
Originally Posted by asheraa
I kind of agree here and I really hope that the Elf face templates in the character creator are just placeholders tbh.

I'm all for inclusivity however, so here's a bunch of faces I think would work fine for elves while still allowing representation. Elfin Faces personal headcanon examples

Don't get me wrong but Faerun has it's own people of color as human subraces and having elves looking exactly the same makes no sense and again turns them in humans with pointy ears (probably on glue).
May an elf share some facial features with those human subraces? - Yes, as long is it doesn't contradict elven specifics for those features. It's even normal for wood elves to have brown or yellowish skin. What we have now with some elven heads is not the case, unfortunetly.
If you take a look at elven portraits from NWN there are some good examples of how an elf may look more mongolian or african and elven at the same time.
Yeah there's lots of afro-descended or partly afro-descended looks that could work as elven. But they still have the main elven traits down. But Elf Head 3 is bad for elves the same way Elf Head 4 is. Too jawy, too broad, too weighty, too human.
Originally Posted by Zellin
Originally Posted by asheraa
I kind of agree here and I really hope that the Elf face templates in the character creator are just placeholders tbh.

I'm all for inclusivity however, so here's a bunch of faces I think would work fine for elves while still allowing representation. Elfin Faces personal headcanon examples

Don't get me wrong but Faerun has it's own people of color as human subraces and having elves looking exactly the same makes no sense and again turns them in humans with pointy ears (probably on glue).
May an elf share some facial features with those human subraces? - Yes, as long is it doesn't contradict elven specifics for those features. It's even normal for wood elves to have brown or yellowish skin. What we have now with some elven heads is not the case, unfortunetly.
If you take a look at elven portraits from NWN there are some good examples of how an elf may look more mongolian or african and elven at the same time.


Agreed with Zellin, I think fantasy races shouldn't reflect real-life human ethnicities, unless there is a good lore reason for that (tieflings). Elves are visually closest to Caucasian features with some Asian aspects (as I see it), but above that they should be their own thing. That said, asheraa provided some real faces with good guidelines for elvish features in humans. This is how half-elves should look like imo.
My favorite video game representation of elves and dwarves was in the first Witcher game, they were all clearly inhuman, but without looking unreal. The later Witcher games watered them down, I'm assuming because they were modeled on real people, but I'd still like if, elves especially, were made more otherworldly.
@asheera gave us some good examples of faces that could be a good basis for the art team. There is another thread on that topic that veered off into making connections between elves and the peoples of the earth and that thread got abandoned. Better to revive that thread than remake it here. Elven features are angular, delicate and unlike any one human group. The art in the Tome of Foes does a good job -- I especially like the drow in the pink dress. She just isn't from this planet, is she?

In addition to the elf heads we have now we need some that look otherworldly.
Originally Posted by Zellin
And this thread should be moved to suggestions and feedback section. It's quite important feedback, cause now elves are just humans with pointy ears and that's sad.


I didn't think of that, I thought they'd be reviewing the entire forums to be honest. Besides the suggestions section is oversaturated, so many posts, I'm not sure they can actually read through all of it, but I don't know.

I am however, thrilled and very surprised with just how many people have participated in here, so maybe we should start doing on what to do next. I know that the developers get informed directly through the 'send feedback' button in the game launcher, so maybe we could send a link to this thread or... I don't know. I listen to suggestions!
Originally Posted by Sozz
My favorite video game representation of elves and dwarves was in the first Witcher game, they were all clearly inhuman, but without looking unreal. The later Witcher games watered them down, I'm assuming because they were modeled on real people, but I'd still like if, elves especially, were made more otherworldly.


Actually in the witcher universe elves, if I'm not mistaken, have sharp teeth, like goblins in BG3, but less prominent. Even the witcher 1 didn't make them right, but indeed they were more inhuman than their later version.
Originally Posted by Goldberry
Originally Posted by Zellin
And this thread should be moved to suggestions and feedback section. It's quite important feedback, cause now elves are just humans with pointy ears and that's sad.


I didn't think of that, I thought they'd be reviewing the entire forums to be honest. Besides the suggestions section is oversaturated, so many posts, I'm not sure they can actually read through all of it, but I don't know.

I am however, thrilled and very surprised with just how many people have participated in here, so maybe we should start doing on what to do next. I know that the developers get informed directly through the 'send feedback' button in the game launcher, so maybe we could send a link to this thread or... I don't know. I listen to suggestions!

The suggestions section being oversaturated is one of reasons I wouldn't expect them to pay much attention to anything in this section. They are more likely spending enough of their time digging through topics there.
You can ask a moderator to move your topic.
Also I was going to make one big topic about visuals there, I think I will add a link to your topic in it, when I'll start about elves.
Originally Posted by Maerd
Originally Posted by Sozz
My favorite video game representation of elves and dwarves was in the first Witcher game, they were all clearly inhuman, but without looking unreal. The later Witcher games watered them down, I'm assuming because they were modeled on real people, but I'd still like if, elves especially, were made more otherworldly.


Actually in the witcher universe elves, if I'm not mistaken, have sharp teeth, like goblins in BG3, but less prominent. Even the witcher 1 didn't make them right, but indeed they were more inhuman than their later version.


It's the opposite, elves don't have canines in the Witcher universe. It's actually a plot point in one scene in one of the books.
Originally Posted by Uncle Lester
Originally Posted by Maerd
Originally Posted by Sozz
My favorite video game representation of elves and dwarves was in the first Witcher game, they were all clearly inhuman, but without looking unreal. The later Witcher games watered them down, I'm assuming because they were modeled on real people, but I'd still like if, elves especially, were made more otherworldly.


Actually in the witcher universe elves, if I'm not mistaken, have sharp teeth, like goblins in BG3, but less prominent. Even the witcher 1 didn't make them right, but indeed they were more inhuman than their later version.


It's the opposite, elves don't have canines in the Witcher universe. It's actually a plot point in one scene in one of the books.

Maybe you're thinking of the Elves in Elder Scrolls who are solely carnivores?
Originally Posted by Sozz
Maybe you're thinking of the Elves in Elder Scrolls who are solely carnivores?


Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't just Bosmer strictly carnivorous, and only for cultural/religious reasons? I don't think I've heard about all mer being carnivores (though perhaps I'm poorly informed).
Originally Posted by Uncle Lester
Originally Posted by Sozz
Maybe you're thinking of the Elves in Elder Scrolls who are solely carnivores?


Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't just Bosmer strictly carnivorous, and only for cultural/religious reasons? I don't think I've heard about all mer being carnivores (though perhaps I'm poorly informed).
I'm hardly an expert on Elder Scrolls lore but yes, it's the Wood Elves" in the Emerald Forest who strictly eat meat, I don;t know if it's because they can't metabolize anything else or if it's a "super-environmentalist" cultural/religious thing, I think both are cool.
Originally Posted by Sozz
Originally Posted by Uncle Lester
Originally Posted by Sozz
Maybe you're thinking of the Elves in Elder Scrolls who are solely carnivores?


Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't just Bosmer strictly carnivorous, and only for cultural/religious reasons? I don't think I've heard about all mer being carnivores (though perhaps I'm poorly informed).
I'm hardly an expert on Elder Scrolls lore but yes, it's the Wood Elves" in the Emerald Forest who strictly eat meat, I don;t know if it's because they can't metabolize anything else or if it's a "super-environmentalist" cultural/religious thing, I think both are cool.


From UESP:

Quote
The Green Pact, also known as the Treaty of Frond and Leaf, is a strict code upheld by many of the Bosmer of Valenwood. It is said to have guided their existence since the beginning of the "great story". Its rules are clear. Do not harm the forests of Valenwood. Do not eat anything made from plant life. Eat only meat. When enemies are conquered, their meat must be eaten, not left to rot. Do not kill wastefully. Do not take on the shape of beasts.


More on topic: I like how Skyrim actually makes elves look "alien". They don't look great, but that's more a matter of execution rather than design, I think. (And of course TES games vary wildly with race depictions...) Oblivion Character Overhaul mod does a pretty good job at that. (Erring on the side of "pretty", but elves still look distinct.)
Good thread.. after going through it all i agree with most here. They did a good job with the dwarves, humans, gith and tieflings... then like a few have said "slapped some pointy ears on the human model" for elves...

Understand elves are in a lot of different places in a lot a lot of different forms but kinda agree with those who thought they should have stayed with a more standard model from d&d if thats the player base they are primarily going for making... a d&d game... ;D

After an initial "that looks nice" impression of the character generator.. just seems like they got a little lazy with the elf race... probably not unrelated to how the missed even worse(so bad lol) with the hafling race... always thought haflings were supposed to look more like the nimble/agile elf... here they look like they have been crossbred with dwarves for a few generations! laugh but then here, elves dont have that look either...

After making a bunch of characters it kinda feels like part of a bigger overall problem of lack customization with the entire process... this is probably made bigger by the type of gamers we are... we all know how we think things should look and like it that way! ;D also why things like body sliders go such a long way
Some more pictures for you guys to enjoy!

[Linked Image]

Am I the only one who absolutely adores that sun elf? That MANE! laugh

[Linked Image]

Also, another gem I found, I might pin this one to the main post:

[Linked Image]
Originally Posted by Goldberry
Some more pictures for you guys to enjoy!

[Linked Image]

Am I the only one who absolutely adores that sun elf? That MANE! laugh

[Linked Image]

Also, another gem I found, I might pin this one to the main post:

[Linked Image]






I hope we get sun elves
Originally Posted by A Clown
I hope we get sun elves


We have already! In 5E the term "High Elves" includes both Sun Elves and Moon Elves. So what we have to beg for is traditional elven looking elves, lol. PLEASE LARIAN NOTICE US SENPAI.
I hope we get Sun/Moon elf split. At the very least in the form of separate lore palettes and NPCs looking one or the other.
Originally Posted by Uncle Lester
I hope we get Sun/Moon elf split. At the very least in the form of separate lore palettes and NPCs looking one or the other.


I don't know, at least visually you can make one or the other and the rest is just picking whatever dialogue option feels more moon or sun.

I'd rather have Eladrin, they're different enough to have their own category and I'd be curious to see how they'd look.
All of this sub-race talk reminds me of how much I've always wanted to play a Merfolk, or Water Elf.
Originally Posted by Goldberry
Originally Posted by Uncle Lester
I hope we get Sun/Moon elf split. At the very least in the form of separate lore palettes and NPCs looking one or the other.


I don't know, at least visually you can make one or the other and the rest is just picking whatever dialogue option feels more moon or sun.


True, though I always like when a game recognizes things (so to speak) and doesn't make you rely on headcanon. Reactivity and all that. And there's also the matter of NPCs; it would be a shame if they merged two different (visually and culturally) subsets of elves into one entity and placed only generic "high elves" in the world.

Originally Posted by Goldberry
I'd rather have Eladrin, they're different enough to have their own category and I'd be curious to see how they'd look.


Yeah, I think Eladrin are rather unlikely, but I'd love to see how they go about the seasons thing.
Originally Posted by Uncle Lester
Yeah, I think Eladrin are rather unlikely, but I'd love to see how they go about the seasons thing.


We get a tiny taste of the seasonal thing in elven eye colors. It's a nice touch.

I think we should have a whole game about elves and just elves. All the different varieties! All the lore! Trips to the Feywild, Evermeet, Myth Drannor, Evereska!

Aaaand probably no one would buy it. sigh
Originally Posted by Goldberry
Originally Posted by Uncle Lester
I hope we get Sun/Moon elf split. At the very least in the form of separate lore palettes and NPCs looking one or the other.


I don't know, at least visually you can make one or the other and the rest is just picking whatever dialogue option feels more moon or sun.

I'd rather have Eladrin, they're different enough to have their own category and I'd be curious to see how they'd look.


*Pours one out for the earlier edition Eladrin*

I don't mind the current Eladrin enough that I'd be interested and even happy to see them in game, but I do miss them being the Celestials they were.

Any split from High Elf into Sun/Moon as separate acknowledged things is very unlikely at this stage imo, but I've always held an affection for Sun Elves as well! ^^
Originally Posted by Tarlonniel
Originally Posted by Uncle Lester
Yeah, I think Eladrin are rather unlikely, but I'd love to see how they go about the seasons thing.


We get a tiny taste of the seasonal thing in elven eye colors. It's a nice touch.

I think we should have a whole game about elves and just elves. All the different varieties! All the lore! Trips to the Feywild, Evermeet, Myth Drannor, Evereska!

Aaaand probably no one would buy it. sigh


I don't think so! It's never been done before, has it? If done right, it can make for a great game smile The closest thing I can think of is Kingdoms of Amalur, it is a little bit of a niche and unknown game but those who know it seem to love it.
Ah when people point it out that Halfelf look more like Elf. Perhaps an easy solution would be that developers change so Half Elf models are Elf and Elf models are Half-Elf....

Oh yes though I have enjoyed Goldberry suggestions in this thread I want to keep fairly realistic. I am not saying we could not do what Goldberry wants. I simply pointed out a doable more say easy change. I really like your Elf pictures Goldberry.
Posted By: Vallis Re: Elves are not Elven - 04/01/21 01:52 PM
I disagree. I play a Half elf and they look pretty damn human-esque. The pure elves are easy to tell apart as all their features are more elongated. Half-elves practically look human with slight elven angularity, ears and eyes. The half elves don't all look alike either, that's just one preset, and you chose literally the youngest looking preset of them all for the arguement.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Originally Posted by DumbleDorf
I'm pretty sure I already said it all summarised as 'You can make better looking characters in Oblivion'.

Because the point is that by current standards, Oblivion actually had very atrocious character models and it didn't age well at all, yet somehow BG3 manages to still be worse in 2020.

The small pick of default faces pretty much all look the same. Select a beard then switch through each face and you can barely see any difference at all. They are not sufficient to meet each player's choices or desires in how they want their character to look.

A fully customisable character creation engine like in Oblivion and Skyrim should pretty much be a mandatory requirement for new AAA RPGs.

Sorry, but you can't be serious. There's not a single Elder Scrolls game or Bethesda game in general where you can create an actually good looking NON-nord character without mods. This character creator is miles above ANYTHING in a vanilla Bethesda game. They have the WORST character models in gaming. You could not even create an imperial or breton character in Skyrim without them looking inbred. Of the human presets, only one Nord one came close to looking anything like a normal human. So if you wanted an aesthetic male in Skyrim, you had to play as the one nord preset. There's a reason countless preset overhaul mods exist for skyrim. Almost no one likes their take on character models. All the human race presets in Skyrim were absolutely horrble, and the elves were so awful looking you didn't want to play one. Oblivion was even worse with those potato heads. In this game I actually would not mind playing an elf/half-elf n actual fact the Half elf looks better than the Humans.

As for your small selection complaint. Say it with me. EARLY ACCESS
Posted By: Dexai Re: Elves are not Elven - 04/01/21 02:11 PM
...I literally only play Bretons and Imperials in Skyrim because they are the only good looking humans...
Posted By: Vallis Re: Elves are not Elven - 04/01/21 02:17 PM
Originally Posted by Dexai
...I literally only play Bretons and Imperials in Skyrim because they are the only good looking humans...
......What?!?! they were the worst. Bretons all looked 60+ or inbred and Imperials deformed in vanilla. Nords and Redguard legit were the only normal looking humans, and even they had only a few decent presets to choose, mainly the first 3.

[Linked Image from images.saymedia-content.com]

Nords being the most aesthetic, is probably why so many follower mods including the ones that are supposed to be other humans races, use the nord models

Anyway i''m good on the elven models currently. I'd rather elves look human-like rather than the balding goblins they looked like in Skyrim. So hideous that nobody wanted to play one. I often found the pompous attitudes of elves especially the high ones in Skyrim laughable since they all looked objectively worse than humans and not at all superior lol. They all looked more goblin-esque than the actual orc race, eyes sickly etc and if you managed to become a vampire elf in skyrim? Dear god in heaven.

[Linked Image from i.ytimg.com]

I think part of this change is due to feedback from Divinity. Vanilla elves in Divinity were not so great. The males only had like 2 decent presets.
Posted By: Nyloth Re: Elves are not Elven - 04/01/21 03:48 PM
and drow males still only have one normal young face. why devs like to add only old faces for male characters...
Posted By: Bruh Re: Elves are not Elven - 04/01/21 04:10 PM
Originally Posted by Nyloth
and drow males still only have one normal young face. why devs like to add only old faces for male characters...
Because old guys are hawt wink
Yes, I'm serious.
Posted By: Nyloth Re: Elves are not Elven - 04/01/21 06:30 PM
Originally Posted by Bruh
Originally Posted by Nyloth
and drow males still only have one normal young face. why devs like to add only old faces for male characters...
Because old guys are hawt wink
Yes, I'm serious.

Only if they look like Astarion.
Posted By: Kadajko Re: Elves are not Elven - 04/01/21 07:16 PM
Originally Posted by Nyloth
and drow males still only have one normal young face. why devs like to add only old faces for male characters...

Because sexism, female faces have to look good, male faces don't.
Posted By: Wyrmblade Re: Elves are not Elven - 04/01/21 10:10 PM
Its kind of weird for elves to look old..
Aalso agree with op elves dont look very elven.
Not terrible but this is baldurs gate ok isnt good enough.
Posted By: Talking Skull Re: Elves are not Elven - 05/01/21 07:51 PM
Does everything have to be about sexism? Frankly, I find the majority of faces in character creation ugly regardless of race or sex save for maybe a couple here and there. They should consider adding more faces, sliders or maybe the ability to swap parts (eye 12 with nose 7 for example) so that there are less complaints. The faces they included are average joes, so its to be expected they're not going to look drop dead gorgeous or anything.
Posted By: Kadajko Re: Elves are not Elven - 05/01/21 07:57 PM
Originally Posted by Talking Skull
Does everything have to be about sexism?

No, not at all, but this aspect consistently is, how many old elven female faces are there compared to males?
Posted By: Darun Re: Elves are not Elven - 06/01/21 02:42 AM
Originally Posted by Talking Skull
Does everything have to be about sexism?

Of course; the holier than thou social justice warriors are everywhere, after all.
Posted By: Goldberry Re: Elves are not Elven - 06/01/21 03:07 AM
Originally Posted by Vallis
I disagree. I play a Half elf and they look pretty damn human-esque. The pure elves are easy to tell apart as all their features are more elongated. Half-elves practically look human with slight elven angularity, ears and eyes. The half elves don't all look alike either, that's just one preset, and you chose literally the youngest looking preset of them all for the arguement.

I was lazy to take a screenshot of all the faces. While it is true that I picked the youngest looking one, I still think that all of the half elven heads are better than all of the elven heads. More delicate and attractive.

You are right that half elves look pretty damn human-esque though. The point here is that... So do full blooded elves, actually.
Posted By: Kadajko Re: Elves are not Elven - 06/01/21 10:42 AM
Originally Posted by Darun
Of course; the holier than thou social justice warriors are everywhere, after all.

It's not about holier than thou, this is about me not getting what I want. I don't really care about politics behind these choices, I just don't like the fact that I am locked out of multiple races when it comes to playing male characters, because I like to play characters that look good, and it is impossible to create a good looking male character ( for my taste) with the current CC options on some races.

Mods often fix these problems however,so I'm not too worried.

That said, there was a question:

Originally Posted by Nyloth
why devs like to add only old faces for male characters...

Answer to the question ''why'' is undeniably sexism, to me it's obvious. If you think the reason is different, I am all ears.
ok, since this topic is open about "sexist" .. let's go!

I made a "dude - uh uh" and somehow I got a glitch which prove my point even better.

But here is the context, from my perspective. I was a bit offended about why when you put the Githyanki's armour on a female, she shows up like in short pants (you can even see butt cheeks if you zoom in) but when you put that same armour on a "dude" the guy is fully padded from toe to neck. My first reaction was, ah dudes are always on their knees and needs padding perhaps or some help ? :- ).

Game developers are always making the female sexy, as if we will chase monsters in high heels or wearing skirts and sexy dress... while the males are always fully padded. (Im really thinking they need padding so they don't hurt them self .. by them self, that's the only rational I came up with).

So to counter this, I made this "sexy dude" (based on Rollo from the Vicking cuz he's hot) and used that Nightsong" mod from nexus and make it top less. But the #@$#$ mod has a glitch ONLY with male, how convenient. The same "pants - only" works great on female (shadowheart) of course, but look on my male:


[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]



How's that o.O
anyway .. can't stop the dev "male" fantasy I guess ..
-S
Actually, you guys are going a little too off-topic now. I don't mind a little bit of divertion but that's not what we are going for here laugh
Originally Posted by Goldberry
Actually, you guys are going a little too off-topic now. I don't mind a little bit of divertion but that's not what we are going for here laugh

Hippity hoppity, your thread is now our sexism discussion property.

On a more serious note though, it is midly related to your topic, if you look at your own male face side by side example comparrison you will see that you did not pick that one by accident. If you were to use female faces it would be harder to see if not impossible.
Originally Posted by Goldberry
Quote
Actually, you guys are going a little too off-topic now.

Well, comparing photos between genders will inevitably bring something sexist along the way and that's how I felt invited to come n' chipping in.

Originally Posted by Goldberry
Quote
I still think that all of the half elven heads are better than all of the elven heads.

Perhaps it respect some universal rules about beauty, mixte-race "generally" has a better percentage for beauty. That was established by Darwin, though the study is a bit more complex than that.

Nonetheless, female characters seems to be design to attracts the boys & the lunatics with false belief that 80% of gamers are boys .. and the few of us girls, (according to that false assumption) we get the last pic in the bag of faces for male characters IF we want the equivalent.

That, perhaps, is a sign that there's a need for more female game developers. If we had more female dev, there would be more equity between genders and to the point, between races - that's quite an assumption I'm making here.

So basically, once again, with the example about the Githyanki's armour, it would have the same look on a female character or male character - either we see the butt cheek for both male/female or both are fully padded or adjusted the same way. (I don't like the fully padded, neither the "butt cheek" version, I would adjusted so it's not that "sexy" and it's not that big either).

-S
Originally Posted by Starlights
That, perhaps, is a sign that there's a need for more female game developers.

-S

As a girl who love games, this is a very scary thought for me during modern social movements.

This can completely disfigure the design of women's armor, make it look like squalor for nuns. You know, I don't have anything against "bra armor", I guess I just want something similar for men. Fanservice for women! But in fact, women developers can give you a completely reverse thing, unfortunately. Because now everyone is talking about "sexualization", about how bad it is and blablabla. But this is a game, I want things to look cool, hot, stylish. I don't even want to think about stupid realism.

I bet there are enough womens in Bioware, both among designers and developers, and looks like it does not help them...
I want games to service me, which means less bra and thong armour for both men and women.

And that is why the game developing business needs more clones of me in it.
Originally Posted by Dexai
I want games to service me, which means less bra and thong armour for both men and women.

And that is why the game developing business needs more clones of me in it.
Perfect reply

Going back to the main topic of this thread: @Goldberry summarized perfectly what I wasn't being able to point out exactly why Elf faces were bothering me so much. They mostly look human. I think there are only two female Elf faces that fits the category nicely, and that is it. I remember actually going for a half-elf character because he looked more elven than elves, lol. So yeah, I absolutely agree with this thread.

On a side note, I saw you mention that there were few interactions based on your High-Elf race, I was wondering if that's because maybe when Larian made the "high-elf" subrace they meant only Moon elves, which are more common
Originally Posted by Starlights
Originally Posted by Goldberry
Quote
Actually, you guys are going a little too off-topic now.

Well, comparing photos between genders will inevitably bring something sexist along the way and that's how I felt invited to come n' chipping in.

Originally Posted by Goldberry
Quote
I still think that all of the half elven heads are better than all of the elven heads.

Perhaps it respect some universal rules about beauty, mixte-race "generally" has a better percentage for beauty. That was established by Darwin, though the study is a bit more complex than that.

Nonetheless, female characters seems to be design to attracts the boys & the lunatics with false belief that 80% of gamers are boys .. and the few of us girls, (according to that false assumption) we get the last pic in the bag of faces for male characters IF we want the equivalent.

That, perhaps, is a sign that there's a need for more female game developers. If we had more female dev, there would be more equity between genders and to the point, between races - that's quite an assumption I'm making here.

So basically, once again, with the example about the Githyanki's armour, it would have the same look on a female character or male character - either we see the butt cheek for both male/female or both are fully padded or adjusted the same way. (I don't like the fully padded, neither the "butt cheek" version, I would adjusted so it's not that "sexy" and it's not that big either).

-S

Why are people complaining about beautiful women? We like to look at attractive people, we are a vain species, pretending otherwise is coping, the Men are just as attractive in this game so I don't see the arguement. It seems like people are less concerned with elves looking too human, and more concerned over half elves "looking better" than actual elves in their opinion, because they BOTH look pretty human. Video games should not serve as platforms to boost players own self esteem, there's people to talk to for that, they should look representitive of the artist direction. I honestly feel for these developers, because they're trying to portray their own artistic vision, while having to deal with the various people with their own personal issues who think the artist's work should cater to them specifically and be their own personal therapy so to speak, and when you have a bunch of different people wanting different things specifically catered to them, that direction gets lost, part of the reason these big AAA developers have been stumbling in this era of games is listening TOO much to player feedback, or atleast not the right kind of constructive feedback, rather they listen to the people who think they should make their game. Trying to make games for everyone, instead of the game they set out to make. "Why isn't this character this sexuality I wanted to romance that one!" "why does this character look this way, it should look like how I want". This not only damages characters in the development process, but the entire game as a whole. Anyway having more female developers =/= a better product, afterall more females at CD projekt red worked on Cyberpunk 2077 than they did on Witcher 3, and one of those games became one of the biggest rpg's of all time, the other, the biggest blunder since Fallout 76. So gender does not make a product good. Talent does, only talent

Apologies for the mini rant, but i'm just tired of this rhetoric, this rhetoric has already destroyed many of the AAA developers from Bioware to Bethesda to now CD Projekt and people insist on destroying the few we have left making quality games. Gamers need to get back to constructive criticisms, gaming mechanics, combat, writing etc etc and stop trying to turn the games into their own personal mod. Just play Skyrim instead and you can morph the entire game how you see fit LOL

But yes, most gamers are boys that's a fact, infact despite Ubisoft making Kassandra of Assassins Creed the canon character 80% of players still chose Alexios. And it was the same for Mass Effect and Commander Shepard, despite how hard they pushed femshep after 3. What does that tell you. Keep in mind here no one is saying girls aren't or can't be gamers, boys can play with barbies too. But the fact is, barbies are by and large sold to girls.
Originally Posted by Vallis
Apologies for the mini rant, but i'm just tired of this rhetoric, this rhetoric has already destroyed many of the AAA developers from Bioware to Bethesda to now CD Projekt and people insist on destroying the few we have left making quality games. Gamers need to get back to constructive criticisms, gaming mechanics, combat, writing etc etc and stop trying to turn the games into their own personal mod. Just play Skyrim instead and you can morph the entire game how you see fit LOL

But yes, most gamers are boys that's a fact, infact despite Ubisoft making Kassandra of Assassins Creed the canon character 80% of players still chose Alexios. And it was the same for Mass Effect and Commander Shepard, despite how hard they pushed femshep after 3. What does that tell you. Keep in mind here no one is saying girls aren't or can't be gamers, boys can play with barbies too. But the fact is, barbies are by in large sold to girls.
I completely agree with this. I'd also like to remind the people who brought up sexism to look at the media catering to women and tell me how often they see hot, shirtless guys fawning over a totally average female protagonist and how that's any different from games with a mostly male audience having their females look attractive. Games cater to their main demographics. Both sexes like eye candy, both have self insert protags, who cares? There are games out there with fat, covered up women where everything is pastel and no one is sexy if you want them but those games fail to bring in an audience for a reason.
Originally Posted by Vallis
Why are people complaining about beautiful women?

No one is complaining about that. Please quote the complaint.

Originally Posted by Vallis
Men are just as attractive in this game.

Your subjective opinion vs other peoples subjective opinion.

Originally Posted by Vallis
people with their own personal issues who think the artist's work should cater to them specifically.

In a way. This is an RPG, character creator should have options, DIFFERENT options, not a lot of very similar ones.

Originally Posted by Vallis
So gender does not make a product good. Talent does, only talent.

True, gender of devs is completely irrelevant.

Originally Posted by Vallis
Gamers need to get back to constructive criticisms.

TBH, this topic is pretty constructive by OP, we just derailed it, sexism was a little side note. Elves in this game don't look elfy, it's not lore friendly.

Originally Posted by Talking Skull
I'd also like to remind the people who brought up sexism to look at the media catering to women and tell me how often they see hot, shirtless guys fawning over a totally average female protagonist and how that's any different from games with a mostly male audience having their females look attractive.

Most of us just want equality tbh. If there are a lot of beautiful female faces, there should be as many beautiful male faces, if there are a lot of old male faces, there should be a lot of old female faces, if an armor shows buttcheeks it should show buttcheeks on males and females both, if an armor looks practical it should also look practical on both etc. Zero problems with sexy, so long as it is for both sexes in equal amount AND ( this is important ) exactly the same way.
Originally Posted by Talking Skull
Originally Posted by Vallis
Apologies for the mini rant, but i'm just tired of this rhetoric, this rhetoric has already destroyed many of the AAA developers from Bioware to Bethesda to now CD Projekt and people insist on destroying the few we have left making quality games. Gamers need to get back to constructive criticisms, gaming mechanics, combat, writing etc etc and stop trying to turn the games into their own personal mod. Just play Skyrim instead and you can morph the entire game how you see fit LOL

But yes, most gamers are boys that's a fact, infact despite Ubisoft making Kassandra of Assassins Creed the canon character 80% of players still chose Alexios. And it was the same for Mass Effect and Commander Shepard, despite how hard they pushed femshep after 3. What does that tell you. Keep in mind here no one is saying girls aren't or can't be gamers, boys can play with barbies too. But the fact is, barbies are by in large sold to girls.
I completely agree with this. I'd also like to remind the people who brought up sexism to look at the media catering to women and tell me how often they see hot, shirtless guys fawning over a totally average female protagonist and how that's any different from games with a mostly male audience having their females look attractive. Games cater to their main demographics. Both sexes like eye candy, both have self insert protags, who cares? There are games out there with fat, covered up women where everything is pastel and no one is sexy if you want them but those games fail to bring in an audience for a reason.

100%, and even the super crazy tumblr-types would agree in secret, despite how much some push unnattractive people as ideal in their art and protest beauty, they don't actually believe that nor want those types and often times, desire people well above their own station. Before the tumblr nsfw ban almost every nsfw blog was of hot jock males LOL

Originally Posted by Kadajko
[quote=Vallis]


Your subjective opinion vs other peoples subjective opinion.

There is nothing subjective about this, this is objectively handsome, just as brad pitt is objectively handsome, you can say he's not your personal taste, but you must acknowledge he is objectively beautiful. Beauty is not an opinion. Some people are objectively sexy, and others objectively repulsive. Attraction though, is subjective.

[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]
I wonder if the discussion of gender is helping @goldberry's cause? She's only made one thread to advocate for one issue and I want to see her succeed.

Seems like people want to discuss representation, gender and beauty standards -- which could be great fun. Perhaps someone could make a separate thread about that?
Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
I wonder if the discussion of gender is helping @goldberry's cause? She's only made one thread to advocate for one issue and I want to see her succeed.

Seems like people want to discuss representation, gender and beauty standards -- which could be great fun. Perhaps someone could make a separate thread about that?

I was about to suggest the same thing. There is obviously need to discuss gender and sexism, it would be best to make a thread for that.


As for the original topic: I do agree, that the elves don't look that elvy.
Originally Posted by Vallis
There is nothing subjective about this, this is objectively handsome, just as brad pitt is objectively handsome, you can say he's not your personal taste, but you must acknowledge he is objectively beautiful. Beauty is not an opinion. Some people are objectively sexy, and others objectively repulsive. Attraction though, is subjective.

Even if this were to be true, which it is not, but it is irrelevant to my next point: you don't find it ironic that you posted exactly the ONE face that OP also posted? The one face everyone picks, and it is not an elf face?
Posted By: Vallis Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 08/01/21 08:52 PM
Originally Posted by Kadajko
Originally Posted by Vallis
There is nothing subjective about this, this is objectively handsome, just as brad pitt is objectively handsome, you can say he's not your personal taste, but you must acknowledge he is objectively beautiful. Beauty is not an opinion. Some people are objectively sexy, and others objectively repulsive. Attraction though, is subjective.

you don't find it ironic that you posted exactly the ONE face that OP also posted? The one face everyone picks, and it is not an elf face?

Except it's not. The preset used in OP is head 5 for the half high elf, aka the most baby faced and youngest looking of the half high elf presets. Which is exactly why I called OP out for it, using the most babyfaced preset in the roster to prove that half elves look more "delicate" and elven than the full elves. The preset in the photo above is head 1 for the half high elf and looks drastically older, and very much human, despite some claiming the half elves look "too elf" apparently, i'm like besides the ears, where? LOL

[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]
Posted By: Kadajko Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 08/01/21 09:00 PM
Originally Posted by Vallis
Except it's not. The preset used in OP is head 5 for the half high elf, aka the most baby faced and youngest looking of the half high elf presets. Which is exactly why I called OP out for it, using the most babyfaced preset in the roster to prove that half elves look more "delicate" and elven than the full elves. The preset in the photo above is head 1 for the half high elf and looks drastically older, and very much human, despite some claiming the half elves look "too elf" apparently, i'm like besides the ears, where? LOL

Fair enough, my bad. The face expression and the beard made me see the other face. I agree that all faces look human and should be slightly elvenized. That said you were talking about faces looking good while showing off half-elven faces, which are younger looking and more delicate than the elven ones, even if they all look human.
Posted By: A_va Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 08/01/21 09:02 PM
Complaining about beauty was not the purpose of this thread. The purpose was to discuss Elven feautures and/or the lack of them. Goldberry made her first post absolutely clear.
Posted By: Vallis Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 08/01/21 09:59 PM
Originally Posted by Kadajko
Originally Posted by Vallis
Except it's not. The preset used in OP is head 5 for the half high elf, aka the most baby faced and youngest looking of the half high elf presets. Which is exactly why I called OP out for it, using the most babyfaced preset in the roster to prove that half elves look more "delicate" and elven than the full elves. The preset in the photo above is head 1 for the half high elf and looks drastically older, and very much human, despite some claiming the half elves look "too elf" apparently, i'm like besides the ears, where? LOL

Fair enough, my bad. The face expression and the beard made me see the other face. I agree that all faces look human and should be slightly elvenized. That said you were talking about faces looking good while showing off half-elven faces, which are younger looking and more delicate than the elven ones, even if they all look human.

No harm done, anyway I agree with the first half of your post, although there already are half elf presets that look more elven, though limited choices, I feel they tried to diversify them, you have half elves like preset 1 looking closer to human, and then you have 2-3 (I believe) looking more angular and "pointy" (lol) like the full elves. Which honestly is how it should be. Mixed races don't all look the same, and some half elves should look closer to human and others closer to elven. We will no doubt get more presets with updates, but hopefully they don't compromise the ones they already have. I for one, love the head 1
Posted By: Starlights Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 08/01/21 11:53 PM
Originally Posted by Kadajko
Most of us just want equality tbh. If there are a lot of beautiful female faces, there should be as many beautiful male faces, if there are a lot of old male faces, there should be a lot of old female faces, if an armor shows buttcheeks it should show buttcheeks on males and females both, if an armor looks practical it should also look practical on both etc. Zero problems with sexy, so long as it is for both sexes in equal amount AND ( this is important ) exactly the same way.

That ! I agree and straight to what I meant to say. We are on the same page.

Originally Posted by Nyloth
As a girl who love games, this is a very scary thought for me during modern social movements.

I sincerely apologize if I offended or planted some scary thought in your mind. I will remove my post if it's perceived that way. Refer to @Kadajko's comments and hopefully we are ok with that.

-> I agree that half-elves has better faces then the rest of the races - but that should be perceive as a constructive comment/feedback for the dev.
-> The point referring the armor (ref.: Kadajko's comment) should also be perceived as constructive feedback for the dev.
I think that's the best we can come up with before we all end-up on a zoom-call arguing about cosmetics. hehe


OP, this thread is great because we are addressing few points that are interrelated (dotted-line) to one another within the same thread. This is to your credit.

-S
Posted By: Goldberry Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 09/01/21 03:42 AM
Originally Posted by A_va
Complaining about beauty was not the purpose of this thread. The purpose was to discuss Elven feautures and/or the lack of them. Goldberry made her first post absolutely clear.

Thank youuuu smile

Originally Posted by Vallis
No harm done, anyway I agree with the first half of your post, although there already are half elf presets that look more elven, though limited choices, I feel they tried to diversify them, you have half elves like preset 1 looking closer to human, and then you have 2-3 (I believe) looking more angular and "pointy" (lol) like the full elves. Which honestly is how it should be. Mixed races don't all look the same, and some half elves should look closer to human and others closer to elven. We will no doubt get more presets with updates, but hopefully they don't compromise the ones they already have. I for one, love the head 1

Well, no one here wants half elves changed if that's what you've gathered from the topic. They look just right.

The topic, again, is that DND has a lot of material on elves and Larian so far seems to have largely ignored it. Besides the trance animation when resting... They look, feel, and behave completely human. For example, If you switched Astarion's race for human, little besides his resting animation would have to be changed. This clearly demonstrates that Larian has no interest in portraying elves in a particularly elven way, writting and recording voice lines takes a lot more time and work, so that's a lost cause to me.

But adding a few face presets for them to have a more classic, dnd feel, is a lot easier and achievable smile
This thread is drifting, and not in a good direction. Please try to keep to the topic in the title.

We all know that thread drift occurs, but the question of sexism in gaming is probably too large and contentious to remain a simple diversion. Topics concerning sexism (and other 'isms) have a worrying habit of becoming confrontational and toxic. It is a legitimate area of discussion* but this is not the place.



*Do note that this particular area of the forum is for discussion of Larian's BG3 game and not the wider gaming hobby. The RPG Chat area is more suited for discussion about perceived sexism in gaming generally. Note though that even there any descent into toxicity will result in the usual measures being taken.
I apologize for previous offtop.

And on the topic, probably, such faces were added to the elves for a change, to please more players. For the same reason, all companions are bisexual. I don't see it as a big problem if Larian just adds more faces. Everyone plays as they want and by whom they want. They also have the biggest ears in the game, very hot.
"Biggest ears in the game, very hot" xD that's something I can agree with

I also think they should keep the old elf faces but add some new ones, yeah. As long as the new ones are more elven. Makes more sense & pleases (almost) everyone.
To add to the OP, I absolutely agree that there is an issue in the representation of the pure Elf races. smile

The OP perfectly documented the issue, and without some kind of upvote, I'll just say I agree with them.
Keep the better old faces (Or all of them. The assets are already made, might as well), add new ones that are authentic to moon/sun/wood elves, add meaningful racial dialogue between Elven PCs and NPCs as well as Drow NPCs. Even Dwarves and Elves have history that's fun and so very *typical* of fantasy - completely opposed societies and values, but an acknowledgement of the good in one another and often counting each other as allies in a crisis.

The game as it stands feels like a loosely adapted Faerun setting where a great many characters have been sanded down to accommodate a more generic and less geopolitically nuanced experience (Is that the right term?). It's not been uncommon to see Faerun played as cosmopolitan in my experience, especially in the case of player characters and who they're surrounded by, but I would like to see what makes Faerun itself retained, besides the pure visuals... which they didn't get quite right all across the board either, hence this thread. A good thing we're only in early access, eh? grin

Cultures and their differences from ours are an important and defining distinction of the setting that I adore seeing. I am not, as many here have put it, playing in a fantasy world to draw parallels with my real life. There can be relatability with something utterly alien so long as it's written well, and I still have confidence in Larian's writing team despite not really *feeling* the story so far.
Originally Posted by Vallis
I disagree. I play a Half elf and they look pretty damn human-esque. The pure elves are easy to tell apart as all their features are more elongated. Half-elves practically look human with slight elven angularity, ears and eyes. The half elves don't all look alike either, that's just one preset, and you chose literally the youngest looking preset of them all for the arguement.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Originally Posted by DumbleDorf
I'm pretty sure I already said it all summarised as 'You can make better looking characters in Oblivion'.

Because the point is that by current standards, Oblivion actually had very atrocious character models and it didn't age well at all, yet somehow BG3 manages to still be worse in 2020.

The small pick of default faces pretty much all look the same. Select a beard then switch through each face and you can barely see any difference at all. They are not sufficient to meet each player's choices or desires in how they want their character to look.

A fully customisable character creation engine like in Oblivion and Skyrim should pretty much be a mandatory requirement for new AAA RPGs.

Sorry, but you can't be serious. There's not a single Elder Scrolls game or Bethesda game in general where you can create an actually good looking NON-nord character without mods. This character creator is miles above ANYTHING in a vanilla Bethesda game. They have the WORST character models in gaming. You could not even create an imperial or breton character in Skyrim without them looking inbred. Of the human presets, only one Nord one came close to looking anything like a normal human. So if you wanted an aesthetic male in Skyrim, you had to play as the one nord preset. There's a reason countless preset overhaul mods exist for skyrim. Almost no one likes their take on character models. All the human race presets in Skyrim were absolutely horrble, and the elves were so awful looking you didn't want to play one. Oblivion was even worse with those potato heads. In this game I actually would not mind playing an elf/half-elf n actual fact the Half elf looks better than the Humans.

As for your small selection complaint. Say it with me. EARLY ACCESS

(APPLAUSE)!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Well said, Vallis!
Originally Posted by Vallis
Originally Posted by Starlights
Originally Posted by Goldberry
Quote
Actually, you guys are going a little too off-topic now.

Well, comparing photos between genders will inevitably bring something sexist along the way and that's how I felt invited to come n' chipping in.

Originally Posted by Goldberry
Quote
I still think that all of the half elven heads are better than all of the elven heads.

Perhaps it respect some universal rules about beauty, mixte-race "generally" has a better percentage for beauty. That was established by Darwin, though the study is a bit more complex than that.

Nonetheless, female characters seems to be design to attracts the boys & the lunatics with false belief that 80% of gamers are boys .. and the few of us girls, (according to that false assumption) we get the last pic in the bag of faces for male characters IF we want the equivalent.

That, perhaps, is a sign that there's a need for more female game developers. If we had more female dev, there would be more equity between genders and to the point, between races - that's quite an assumption I'm making here.

So basically, once again, with the example about the Githyanki's armour, it would have the same look on a female character or male character - either we see the butt cheek for both male/female or both are fully padded or adjusted the same way. (I don't like the fully padded, neither the "butt cheek" version, I would adjusted so it's not that "sexy" and it's not that big either).

-S

Why are people complaining about beautiful women? We like to look at attractive people, we are a vain species, pretending otherwise is coping, the Men are just as attractive in this game so I don't see the arguement. It seems like people are less concerned with elves looking too human, and more concerned over half elves "looking better" than actual elves in their opinion, because they BOTH look pretty human. Video games should not serve as platforms to boost players own self esteem, there's people to talk to for that, they should look representitive of the artist direction. I honestly feel for these developers, because they're trying to portray their own artistic vision, while having to deal with the various people with their own personal issues who think the artist's work should cater to them specifically and be their own personal therapy so to speak, and when you have a bunch of different people wanting different things specifically catered to them, that direction gets lost, part of the reason these big AAA developers have been stumbling in this era of games is listening TOO much to player feedback, or atleast not the right kind of constructive feedback, rather they listen to the people who think they should make their game. Trying to make games for everyone, instead of the game they set out to make. "Why isn't this character this sexuality I wanted to romance that one!" "why does this character look this way, it should look like how I want". This not only damages characters in the development process, but the entire game as a whole. Anyway having more female developers =/= a better product, afterall more females at CD projekt red worked on Cyberpunk 2077 than they did on Witcher 3, and one of those games became one of the biggest rpg's of all time, the other, the biggest blunder since Fallout 76. So gender does not make a product good. Talent does, only talent

Apologies for the mini rant, but i'm just tired of this rhetoric, this rhetoric has already destroyed many of the AAA developers from Bioware to Bethesda to now CD Projekt and people insist on destroying the few we have left making quality games. Gamers need to get back to constructive criticisms, gaming mechanics, combat, writing etc etc and stop trying to turn the games into their own personal mod. Just play Skyrim instead and you can morph the entire game how you see fit LOL

But yes, most gamers are boys that's a fact, infact despite Ubisoft making Kassandra of Assassins Creed the canon character 80% of players still chose Alexios. And it was the same for Mass Effect and Commander Shepard, despite how hard they pushed femshep after 3. What does that tell you. Keep in mind here no one is saying girls aren't or can't be gamers, boys can play with barbies too. But the fact is, barbies are by and large sold to girls.

Don't apologize, Vallis. You are the one who has been making the most sense here, and you express yourself very clearly in your writing, so kudos! And yeah, I agree 100% w everything you said.

"Gender does not make a product good. Talent does, only talent." Truth!
Originally Posted by Vallis
Originally Posted by Talking Skull
[quote=Vallis]Apologies for the mini rant, but i'm just tired of this rhetoric, this rhetoric has already destroyed many of the AAA developers from Bioware to Bethesda to now CD Projekt and people insist on destroying the few we have left making quality games. Gamers need to get back to constructive criticisms, gaming mechanics, combat, writing etc etc and stop trying to turn the games into their own personal mod. Just play Skyrim instead and you can morph the entire game how you see fit LOL

But yes, most gamers are boys that's a fact, infact despite Ubisoft making Kassandra of Assassins Creed the canon character 80% of players still chose Alexios. And it was the same for Mass Effect and Commander Shepard, despite how hard they pushed femshep after 3. What does that tell you. Keep in mind here no one is saying girls aren't or can't be gamers, boys can play with barbies too. But the fact is, barbies are by in large sold to girls.
I completely agree with this. I'd also like to remind the people who brought up sexism to look at the media catering to women and tell me how often they see hot, shirtless guys fawning over a totally average female protagonist and how that's any different from games with a mostly male audience having their females look attractive. Games cater to their main demographics. Both sexes like eye candy, both have self insert protags, who cares? There are games out there with fat, covered up women where everything is pastel and no one is sexy if you want them but those games fail to bring in an audience for a reason.

100%, and even the super crazy tumblr-types would agree in secret, despite how much some push unnattractive people as ideal in their art and protest beauty, they don't actually believe that nor want those types and often times, desire people well above their own station. Before the tumblr nsfw ban almost every nsfw blog was of hot jock males LOL

Originally Posted by Kadajko
Originally Posted by Vallis
Your subjective opinion vs other peoples subjective opinion.

There is nothing subjective about this, this is objectively handsome, just as brad pitt is objectively handsome, you can say he's not your personal taste, but you must acknowledge he is objectively beautiful. Beauty is not an opinion. Some people are objectively sexy, and others objectively repulsive. Attraction though, is subjective.

[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]

I rest my case. LOL, Vallis, every time I'm about to reply, you've already typed what was on my mind. Perfect.
Originally Posted by MarcoNeves
I rest my case. LOL, Vallis, every time I'm about to reply, you've already typed what was on my mind. Perfect.

Can you stop spamming, please? That topic has been brought elsewhere. You can continue worshipping Vallis there xD
I'd kind of like it if all the current elf/halfelf portraits were available to both for PC character creation. I get why there are differences but, I want one as an Elf, and probs others want different ones the other way
I am used to the stype of elves Goldberry pointed out in the first post as well. I had several moments in the game where I was confused as I thought a character was meant to be elven but looked human. Then saw the pointy ears and was confused again. (Asatrion and Halsin are examples of some of the main offenders for me and where I only realized they were elven due to meta knowledge and noticing their ears)

Elves should, lore-wise, look almost alien to humans in a way with their own defining features rather than just humans with pointy ears. They are Humanoids still, sure. But so are goblins, orcs, dwarves, tieflings *using the ones represented in game for the sake of the argument), etc. That does not mean they should resemble humans

+1 to Goldberry's post
I like how elves look in the game. It is great to add more head options for character creation, but I wouldn't want the existing head options removed or changed. I also don't want Astarion's or Halsin's design to change.
I should likely add, while I think Halsin and Astarion are offenders in my opinion to what elves -should- look like, they are not neccesarily bad design. They just strike me as half-elven more than full elven, going by lore and how FR has elves represented. In light of that, I think especially Halsin is a cool design that fits a half-elf really well.
Originally Posted by TheFoxWhisperer
I should likely add, while I think Halsin and Astarion are offenders in my opinion to what elves -should- look like, they are not neccesarily bad design. They just strike me as half-elven more than full elven, going by lore and how FR has elves represented. In light of that, I think especially Halsin is a cool design that fits a half-elf really well.
What the fuck?! Halsin is an Elf? I did not even notice he was Elf. Well true some Elven characters in this game do not look enough Elven.


Halsin was never member of my party though I did meet him:

I killed all the Golbin leaders including the Drow also on first try no load without any help from Halsin as level 3 then became level 4 and killed everyone in courtyard or the fortress first try no load needed. When I finally found place where Halsin should have been found traces that Halsin had escaped in Bear form. I met Halsin in Thiefling Village after I killed all the Goblin Leaders.

+2 to Goldberry's post
Originally Posted by Icelyn
I like how elves look in the game. It is great to add more head options for character creation, but I wouldn't want the existing head options removed or changed. I also don't want Astarion's or Halsin's design to change.

Those guys are both elves? Halsin?!?

lol
Originally Posted by Scribe
Originally Posted by Icelyn
I like how elves look in the game. It is great to add more head options for character creation, but I wouldn't want the existing head options removed or changed. I also don't want Astarion's or Halsin's design to change.

Those guys are both elves? Halsin?!?

lol
Halsin is the awesomest elf! biggrin
The muscle beach area of Rivendell didn't get a lot of play in the Lord of the Rings, but I think several chapters of the Silmarillion are devoted to Elf swoleness.
Thats comical. Honestly it is. Elves look more buff and larger than humans. Which, based on the PHB I'm looking at, is flat wrong.

Please Larian. Fix this stuff...
Yes, DOS Elves, not D&D nor BG Elves
Originally Posted by Scribe
Thats comical. Honestly it is. Elves look more buff and larger than humans. Which, based on the PHB I'm looking at, is flat wrong.

Please Larian. Fix this stuff...

The question is why did they get it so wrong in the first place? It's like the source material wasn't even consulted.
“Rule of cool”. Designing something that is considered neat and cool rather than what fits the setting. It sums up a lot of things in the writing imo but this is about elves and not that.
That's a good point. It frustrates me though, if it ain't broke don't fit it, surely?
Originally Posted by TheFoxWhisperer
I should likely add, while I think Halsin and Astarion are offenders in my opinion to what elves -should- look like, they are not neccesarily bad design. They just strike me as half-elven more than full elven, going by lore and how FR has elves represented. In light of that, I think especially Halsin is a cool design that fits a half-elf really well.

Agreed smile

Originally Posted by TheFoxWhisperer
“Rule of cool”. Designing something that is considered neat and cool rather than what fits the setting. It sums up a lot of things in the writing imo but this is about elves and not that.

Agreed again, unfortunately. I was expecting some elven lines or interactions with my character, but there were very few, and disappointing at that. It might be just too early, maybe more flavour will be added to all races, there are a lot of them after all, it is a lot of work.
Originally Posted by Etruscan
Originally Posted by Scribe
Thats comical. Honestly it is. Elves look more buff and larger than humans. Which, based on the PHB I'm looking at, is flat wrong.

Please Larian. Fix this stuff...

The question is why did they get it so wrong in the first place? It's like the source material wasn't even consulted.

It couldnt have been. It literally could not be more clear.

Straight from the Players Handbook.

With their unearthly grace and fine features, elves
appear hauntingly beautiful to humans and members
of many other races. They are slightly shorter than
humans on average, ranging from well under 5 feet
tall to just over 6 feet. They are more slender than
humans, weighing only 100 to 145 pounds.


Halsin, is not an elf.
Halsin is an elf blessed by Silvanus. smile
If this was a D&D game, I'd be fine with that. This is a forgotten realms, Baldur's Gate game. Elves should not be jacked, bigger than the Player Character can ever be. It is absurd.
maybe he's a werebear, just being a shapeshifter has to account for something .
At least they are not the ungodly horrors from DoS2, omg the depiction of elves in that game. I think someone in the upper echelon of Larian hates elves. They have them eat people, turn them into trees, make their stomachs look like they’ve gained and lost weight 100 times, and omg are they ugly, there’s 1 good female face, and every male face makes me never want to eat again.

Elves should be hauntingly and enticingly beautiful. Even if the depictions of them have changed. The lore hasn’t. Half elves are one of the most rampant half-breed in Faerun, because everyone lusts after them, for that very reason. Elves, the original viagra, lol.
Posted By: VonFoxFire Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 30/01/21 08:57 AM
I agree the elven faces lack that other worldly beauty they're known for. They look like someone slapped some pointy ears on a wide range of human faces and called it a day. Other than pointy ears there's nothing that makes them stand out as Elven to me. None of that arrogant superiority aura you'd expect from an elf. Normally I'm all for playing elves but these faces just give me the whole I'm playing a humans with pointy ears feeling and I quickly lose interest in them.
Posted By: Tarlonniel Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 30/01/21 02:14 PM
Originally Posted by Seiryu Suta
At least they are not the ungodly horrors from DoS2, omg the depiction of elves in that game.

That depiction of elves actually gave me hope when I heard that Larian was doing BG3. Because while I didn't like their version of elves at all, it was steadily and consistently maintained, and above all they did not look or feel human. Something in Larian's world building has failed between then and now.
Posted By: TheFoxWhisperer Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 30/01/21 02:59 PM
I kind of liked the take DOS2 had on elves. It was something very different, something unique. Something definatly not done before as far as I know and clearly not Tolkien-ish elves. It worked in the custom setting they created. Rule of Cool is a thing to play with in your own custom setting because it is your own custom setting.

But elves (or Tel'Quessir if you will) in Forgotten Realms are already established and regardless of what sort of elves someone might prefer... their lore as well as image and appearance. To just make them look human with pointy ears is kind of doing a discredit to elves as they are established. Rule of Cool does not really work with this, as it can just clash with lore and immersion.
Posted By: Scribe Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 30/01/21 05:25 PM
Originally Posted by TheFoxWhisperer
I kind of liked the take DOS2 had on elves. It was something very different, something unique. Something definatly not done before as far as I know and clearly not Tolkien-ish elves. It worked in the custom setting they created. Rule of Cool is a thing to play with in your own custom setting because it is your own custom setting.

But elves (or Tel'Quessir if you will) in Forgotten Realms are already established and regardless of what sort of elves someone might prefer... their lore as well as image and appearance. To just make them look human with pointy ears is kind of doing a discredit to elves as they are established. Rule of Cool does not really work with this, as it can just clash with lore and immersion.

Thats the thing. I dont care if someone makes their elves different, but this is not that game. This is Forgotten Realms. Elves have a set of attributes. A description. Halsin is not an elf.
Posted By: Seiryu Suta Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 30/01/21 05:25 PM
Originally Posted by Tarlonniel
Originally Posted by Seiryu Suta
At least they are not the ungodly horrors from DoS2, omg the depiction of elves in that game.

That depiction of elves actually gave me hope when I heard that Larian was doing BG3. Because while I didn't like their version of elves at all, it was steadily and consistently maintained, and above all they did not look or feel human. Something in Larian's world building has failed between then and now.
Originally Posted by TheFoxWhisperer
I kind of liked the take DOS2 had on elves. It was something very different, something unique. Something definatly not done before as far as I know and clearly not Tolkien-ish elves. It worked in the custom setting they created. Rule of Cool is a thing to play with in your own custom setting because it is your own custom setting.

But elves (or Tel'Quessir if you will) in Forgotten Realms are already established and regardless of what sort of elves someone might prefer... their lore as well as image and appearance. To just make them look human with pointy ears is kind of doing a discredit to elves as they are established. Rule of Cool does not really work with this, as it can just clash with lore and immersion.

Oh don't get me wrong I actually love what they did with the Elven lore, in DoS. However, the male faces look like emaciated Goblins, and the stomachs creep me out. I get that it was suppose to look like bark, but it kind of makes my skin crawl. The eating for memories is actually pretty kewl, and there is a real world belief that you gain someone's essence, from eating them. Then there is IZombie which was awesome, where zombies could see your memories from eating your brains. However, someone calling your race cannibals is something someone who hated them would say. I still stand behind someone in the upper echelon hating them, lol. Its hard for you to feel sexy when your stomach is covered in giant stretch mark scars. I had to let go of "my elves", and learn to appreciate them as a different universe's elves.

"These aren't the Elves you're looking for."
Halsin is the elf I was looking for! claphands
Originally Posted by Icelyn
Halsin is the elf I was looking for! claphands

Yep! All of us sometimes dreamed about big and strong elf, and not a typical "scientist" elf type.
The elves in Baldur's Gate 3 resemble Tel-Quessir in the art from the wiki page. Forgotten Realms Wiki

One of them even resembles Halsin.

Third from the left

The main differences are that male Drow are too tall in Baldur's Gate 3 and elves don't have a v-shape to their eyes. If the elves do get a slight v to their eyeline, I'd say they're spot on in Baldur's Gate 3.
Originally Posted by Nyloth
Originally Posted by Icelyn
Halsin is the elf I was looking for! claphands

Yep! All of us sometimes dreamed about big and strong elf, and not a typical "scientist" elf type.

May I introduce the two of you to my dear old pal Orion?
Originally Posted by Nyloth
Originally Posted by Icelyn
Halsin is the elf I was looking for! claphands

Yep! All of us sometimes dreamed about big and strong elf, and not a typical "scientist" elf type.
What nonsense is this? You are a minority that wished for an Elf like Halsin grin. I did not even notice that Halsin was an Elf when I did meet him. The only thing that makes sense he is an Elf that the leaders of this faction are Elves:


Halsin is perhaps in his bulking form like a Werebear.

I am even so fan of traditional Elf look that when I created my Wood Elf I changed the skin from green to white smile.
Here a picture of my Wood Elf when he becomes level 4:
[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]
Well though my favorite Cleric domain has not yet been introduced the Light Domain is ok for me for now currently if Cleric.

Here is the look of my dream partner she is actually Half-Elf, but certainly she looks more Elven then say Halsin.
[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]
[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

What me racist on green skin? No it is not that I find Lae Zel so attactive I could spend a night with her in real life. Githyanki though are not Elves and my ultimate dream partner in looks is not Lae Zel. Can I find Drow dark skinned and white haired attractive so I could spend a night with a drow woman? Yes!
Originally Posted by Terminator2020
Originally Posted by Nyloth
Originally Posted by Icelyn
Halsin is the elf I was looking for! claphands

Yep! All of us sometimes dreamed about big and strong elf, and not a typical "scientist" elf type.
What nonsense is this? You are a minority that wished for an Elf like Halsin grin. I did not even notice that Halsin was an Elf when I did meet him. The only thing that makes sense he is an Elf that the leaders of this faction are

Yes, Halsin looks specific for elf. But you know what? This is what makes him interesting and attractive. If he wasn't an elf and was, for example, a human, he would look "ordinary".

Personally, I'm tired of all those typical elves in fantasy games. Usually they are scientists, mage, all so thin and refined... I'm very glad that Astarion is a bastard and asshole, and Halsin is a big and reliable guy, and they are both elves. Not in every game you will have such experience with elves. I understand that someone wants to create a "typical" elf for themselves. I respect their choice. You just need more types of faces and maybe a few different body type. But I don't want change original characters to "typical standards".

I've already seen someone ask to make Astarion "younger", my God.
Halsin has a rather unique look, not necessarily bad but.. also not elven going by Forgotten Realms lore and how elves are described. He can pass as half-elf, sure. But full elf is a stretch.

Elves can still be muscular and well toned wile fitting the lore FR has. And, regardless of it being a preferred look or not, this IS the setting we are working in. It is like wanting to have 8ft tall dwarves that speak in Japanese accents, just because it is "different" and unique.

I have yet to see any elf "scientists" as well, elves do not look like that at all. Except maybe in the Dragon Age setting, elves still have some muscle to them, though it is more the dexterous kind rather than the bulky muscles. It is like a professional swimmer or dancer compared to a weightlifter. Halsin just goes full weightlifter mode.
Originally Posted by TheFoxWhisperer
Halsin has a rather unique look, not necessarily bad but.. also not elven going by Forgotten Realms lore and how elves are described. He can pass as half-elf, sure. But full elf is a stretch.

Elves can still be muscular and well toned wile fitting the lore FR has. And, regardless of it being a preferred look or not, this IS the setting we are working in. It is like wanting to have 8ft tall dwarves that speak in Japanese accents, just because it is "different" and unique.

I have yet to see any elf "scientists" as well, elves do not look like that at all. Except maybe in the Dragon Age setting, elves still have some muscle to them, though it is more the dexterous kind rather than the bulky muscles. It is like a professional swimmer or dancer compared to a weightlifter. Halsin just goes full weightlifter mode.

I agree with you in everything. That said, I don't really care all that much about Halsin's bodytype. It's a stretch, a long stretch, but as a wood elf (who knows, maybe even wild elf) druid I can tolerate the bulk. What I don't like is the lack of facial elven features, that is what bugs me the most with all elves so far.

Besides the obvious fact that they are also portrayed as pointy eared humans in every other regard.
the elf i made with head 5, black raven hair and dusk tone 6 skin looked more like a half-orc than an elf.
Originally Posted by Nyloth
Originally Posted by Terminator2020
Originally Posted by Nyloth
Originally Posted by Icelyn
Halsin is the elf I was looking for! claphands

Yep! All of us sometimes dreamed about big and strong elf, and not a typical "scientist" elf type.
What nonsense is this? You are a minority that wished for an Elf like Halsin grin. I did not even notice that Halsin was an Elf when I did meet him. The only thing that makes sense he is an Elf that the leaders of this faction are

Yes, Halsin looks specific for elf. But you know what? This is what makes him interesting and attractive. If he wasn't an elf and was, for example, a human, he would look "ordinary".

Personally, I'm tired of all those typical elves in fantasy games. Usually they are scientists, mage, all so thin and refined... I'm very glad that Astarion is a bastard and asshole, and Halsin is a big and reliable guy, and they are both elves. Not in every game you will have such experience with elves. I understand that someone wants to create a "typical" elf for themselves. I respect their choice. You just need more types of faces and maybe a few different body type. But I don't want change original characters to "typical standards".

I've already seen someone ask to make Astarion "younger", my God.

Elf means something within the Forgotten Realms. This isnt the game for breaking out of the 'expected' look. This is a Forgotten Realms game. Elves, are "Elves". They are not huge body builders. Its simply wrong.

Like, you can want buff hulking elves. Thats not my issue. This game is not one where 'Our Elves are Different'. This game, they have height and weight that is codified. Its just not correct for the game at all.

Considering everything else that is fundamentally wrong, I shouldnt be surprised, but still, I am.
Originally Posted by Scribe
Elf means something within the Forgotten Realms. This isnt the game for breaking out of the 'expected' look. This is a Forgotten Realms game. Elves, are "Elves". They are not huge body builders. Its simply wrong.

Like, you can want buff hulking elves. Thats not my issue. This game is not one where 'Our Elves are Different'. This game, they have height and weight that is codified. Its just not correct for the game at all.

Considering everything else that is fundamentally wrong, I shouldnt be surprised, but still, I am.

Well, you don't think they'll completely redesign Astarion and Halsin for you, do you? I hope that you have already realized this.
It is a fairly easy fix all in all, technically speaking: Make them half-elven. Problem solved, and no inconsistensies really with the story (as it is a minor change, with a big impact on lore/immersion)
Originally Posted by Nyloth
Originally Posted by Scribe
Elf means something within the Forgotten Realms. This isnt the game for breaking out of the 'expected' look. This is a Forgotten Realms game. Elves, are "Elves". They are not huge body builders. Its simply wrong.

Like, you can want buff hulking elves. Thats not my issue. This game is not one where 'Our Elves are Different'. This game, they have height and weight that is codified. Its just not correct for the game at all.

Considering everything else that is fundamentally wrong, I shouldnt be surprised, but still, I am.

Well, you don't think they'll completely redesign Astarion and Halsin for you, do you? I hope that you have already realized this.

No, you simply call them Half Elves, as they should be. I have less issue with Astarion anyway. Halsin however? Thats a bad joke.
I think an Elf with Halsin's bodytype only really becomes an issue if it's commonplace, the median strength for all elves should be 8, nothing about that means there can't be strength 18 elves, it's just exceptional.
More of an issue to me (and a minor one at that) and I think more in line with the thread, is how square his face looks, there doesn't seem to be much difference between human, half-elf, and elf facial structure, but that has to be a result of them using real people as models.
Originally Posted by Sozz
I think an Elf with Halsin's bodytype only really becomes an issue if it's commonplace, the median strength for all elves should be 8, nothing about that means there can't be strength 18 elves, it's just exceptional.
Agree! smile
There is no correlation between char's appearance and their strength ability - Lae'zel's is 17 and Halsin's 16...

In 5e, if you decide to roll for your char's height/weight, it is literally impossible to get a wood elf (the heaviest of the bunch) as buff as Halsin is. smile I don't really mind the buffness itself though, makes some sense for someone shapeshifting into a bear. He's just not elf by face features etc., half-elf at best... smile
I'm going to mod him to be a half elf. Its idiotic as is.
Totally agree with the topic
Originally Posted by Scribe
I'm going to mod him to be a half elf. Its idiotic as is.

When this mod comes into existence, please post it on Nexus.
Originally Posted by Tarlonniel
Originally Posted by Scribe
I'm going to mod him to be a half elf. Its idiotic as is.

When this mod comes into existence, please post it on Nexus.

Certainly, I cannot imagine if its exposed in the engine it would be hard at all, but it will put my mind at rest.
Originally Posted by Seiryu Suta
At least they are not the ungodly horrors from DoS2, omg the depiction of elves in that game. I think someone in the upper echelon of Larian hates elves. They have them eat people, turn them into trees, make their stomachs look like they’ve gained and lost weight 100 times, and omg are they ugly, there’s 1 good female face, and every male face makes me never want to eat again.

Elves should be hauntingly and enticingly beautiful. Even if the depictions of them have changed. The lore hasn’t. Half elves are one of the most rampant half-breed in Faerun, because everyone lusts after them, for that very reason. Elves, the original viagra, lol.

+1. DOS2 really disrespected elves and I was disgusted with how similar they look to the ants in the movie Antz.
Originally Posted by Seiryu Suta
They have them eat people, turn them into trees

I'm sorry but that's just what real elves do
Originally Posted by Dexai
Originally Posted by Seiryu Suta
They have them eat people, turn them into trees

I'm sorry but that's just what real elves do

I thought real elves bake cookies.
Only poison cookies that they hand out to children.
Originally Posted by Dexai
Only poison cookies that they hand out to children.

That's ridiculous, elves don't poison children. They steal children to be their slaves for all eternity. Such fair folk they are.
That's just the nice ones
Originally Posted by Roethen
DOS2 really disrespected elves and I was disgusted with how similar they look to the ants in the movie Antz.
What do you expect? You really can't portray a tall, mostly fair skinned race with superior airs - without somehow bringing them low in this political climate. The lizards got the honor of arrogance and advanced society while the elves were made into tribal tree huggers. All together more lenient than how Dragon Age dealt with their offensive knife-ears.
Originally Posted by Terminator2020
Originally Posted by Nyloth
Originally Posted by Icelyn
Halsin is the elf I was looking for! claphands

Yep! All of us sometimes dreamed about big and strong elf, and not a typical "scientist" elf type.
What nonsense is this? You are a minority that wished for an Elf like Halsin grin. I did not even notice that Halsin was an Elf when I did meet him. The only thing that makes sense he is an Elf that the leaders of this faction are Elves:


Halsin is perhaps in his bulking form like a Werebear.

I am even so fan of traditional Elf look that when I created my Wood Elf I changed the skin from green to white smile.
Here a picture of my Wood Elf when he becomes level 4:
[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]
Well though my favorite Cleric domain has not yet been introduced the Light Domain is ok for me for now currently if Cleric.

Here is the look of my dream partner she is actually Half-Elf, but certainly she looks more Elven then say Halsin.
[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]
[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

What me racist on green skin? No it is not that I find Lae Zel so attactive I could spend a night with her in real life. Githyanki though are not Elves and my ultimate dream partner in looks is not Lae Zel. Can I find Drow dark skinned and white haired attractive so I could spend a night with a drow woman? Yes!
This or Belle Delphine as Elf that I can fuck smile. Yes I do like Belle Delphine cool! You can use google.com and find "Belle Delphine pictures as Elf". She is like a young (18+ and she is 21 right now) Elf woman.
Originally Posted by Scribe
I'm going to mod him to be a half elf. Its idiotic as is.
Haha. I'm still sticking to my early theory that someone at Larian swapped elves (which they portray as more buff) for half-elves (portrayed more slender elven) by mistake and has since just doubled down.
Originally Posted by Terminator2020
This or Belle Delphine as Elf that I can fuck smile. Yes I do like Belle Delphine cool! You can use google.com and find "Belle Delphine pictures as Elf". She is like a young (18+ and she is 21 right now) Elf woman.

Uuuh... What? I guess you kinda looked like someone who would drink bathwater.


Originally Posted by Roethen
+1. DOS2 really disrespected elves and I was disgusted with how similar they look to the ants in the movie Antz.

Actually. While I was put off by their appeareance at first, as soon as I met the first elf and I visited the elf refugee cave, I felt compelled to recreate my character as an elf. Yes, the appeareance was disgusting, yes, the cannibalism was disgusting (yet much better done than elder scrolls) but they surely succeeded at making elves feel like a race of their own. They did not feel like humans with pointy ears, and that I think is far more important than appeareance. That is one of the reasons I was thrilled of Larian taking over the development of BG3, I was looking forward to the racial nuances. Which so far, do not exist.
Originally Posted by Goldberry
the cannibalism was disgusting (yet much better done than elder scrolls)

Lol what? Those are fighting words
Originally Posted by Goldberry
Originally Posted by Terminator2020
This or Belle Delphine as Elf that I can fuck smile. Yes I do like Belle Delphine cool! You can use google.com and find "Belle Delphine pictures as Elf". She is like a young (18+ and she is 21 right now) Elf woman.

Uuuh... What? I guess you kinda looked like someone who would drink bathwater.


Originally Posted by Roethen
+1. DOS2 really disrespected elves and I was disgusted with how similar they look to the ants in the movie Antz.

Actually. While I was put off by their appeareance at first, as soon as I met the first elf and I visited the elf refugee cave, I felt compelled to recreate my character as an elf. Yes, the appeareance was disgusting, yes, the cannibalism was disgusting (yet much better done than elder scrolls) but they surely succeeded at making elves feel like a race of their own. They did not feel like humans with pointy ears, and that I think is far more important than appeareance. That is one of the reasons I was thrilled of Larian taking over the development of BG3, I was looking forward to the racial nuances. Which so far, do not exist.
"What? I guess you kinda looked like someone who would drink bathwater. "
Well I like her free to see pictures on Internet and music on youtube. That said I have not paid any money or even buy bathwater or anything else. I have not given any money to her. I only enjoy her for free. I do have money (not even near poor), but I want more money if you want talk about this then please talk in this (it is offtopic in this thread):
Discussion about real life, TV series or movies She does sometimes look like an Elf woman. There are not so many people that even try look like an Elf.


I do like you want that Elves should be sometimes look more like Elves. Well and yes I have seen
The Lord of the Rings (film series)
movies and I do like them very much!
Originally Posted by Dexai
Originally Posted by Goldberry
the cannibalism was disgusting (yet much better done than elder scrolls)

Lol what? Those are fighting words

In TES they're cannibals for no reason other than to try and be edgy, to have a 'twist' to the wood elf trope. They revere nature (or Y'ffre, more like) out of fear and are hypocrites about it, such as going as far to find loopholes in their treaty with the forest by hiring other races to fell their trees for them, and hating on insects for... Eating plants... They're just a meme.

At least in Divinity, their cannibalism is actually a part of who they are as a race biologically. It is a way to share memories and knowledge and keep those who passed away still within the collective mind of the community. While I don't really favour the edgy/plottwist kind of elves, and they did not write super elaborate pages of lore, I think that is much more acceptable than eating people because giggles.
That's funny, because I see it the exact other way around. DoS2 Elves are just cannibals for the edge and the "read memories through eating" thing is just silly. Meanwhile, TES wood elves are cannibals for not just cultural but mythical reasons, because of their bestial nature and connection to the Wild Hunt. DoS elves are a weak attempt at making their elves different from the "standard" elf, while the TES subversion has strong ties to the bigger narrative of the setting and tells of their place within it, as well as firm roots to the real world myths that elves are founded in.
DOS2 elves are barely quessir. They're more like dryads that gain knowledge from consuming mortals. Much more fey / classic elf (where elf is just one language's word for faerie), compared to the mer who are far more based off Tolkein's elves.
TES elves aren't anything like Tolkien's, they're DnD through and through. With the exception of their Wood Elves, which again are far more like what you describe DoS elves as than DoS elves themselves. That's what I was getting at with the Wild Hunt and their mythical roots.
Really would like to see more sharper/slender/angular features for the elves in BG3. Also otherwordly almond shaped eyes! Hopefully this is addressed in some ways before the full release. As of now they just look like regular humans with pointy ears in my opinion. Doesn't look like elves at all for me.

Looking forward to getting this game!
Originally Posted by Kurre
Really would like to see more sharper/slender/angular features for the elves in BG3. Also otherwordly almond shaped eyes! Hopefully this is addressed in some ways before the full release. As of now they just look like regular humans with pointy ears in my opinion. Doesn't look like elves at all for me.

Looking forward to getting this game!

DnD elves have ( mostly ) always been "short skinny humans with pointy ears", so your preference wouldn't really fit.

Not sure where the "angular elf" even originated. There were a number of "angular" character images in 1970s and 1980s fantasy art, but that was artistic style more than the race depicted. Maybe it was Warhammer that drove the trend, wanting to have something distinct.

Personally, I always think of elves as Tolkein depicted them, but the Norse mythology that spawned the light elves and dark elves is a bit blurry on details of appearance, so I guess you can think of them any way you choose.
Originally Posted by etonbears
Originally Posted by Kurre
Really would like to see more sharper/slender/angular features for the elves in BG3. Also otherwordly almond shaped eyes! ... As of now they just look like regular humans with pointy ears in my opinion.

DnD elves have ( mostly ) always been "short skinny humans with pointy ears", so your preference wouldn't really fit.

The entire opening post of this thread is an analysis, in detail and with pictures, of how DnD elves have not been simply humans with pointy ears, focusing specifically on their distinctive angular features and almond shaped eyes, just as Kurre mentioned.
Yeah, I think that all races need some changes to be more unique. But elves are the worse, in my opinion they just don't look like elves in this game.
Posted By: andreasrylander Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 22/04/21 08:13 PM
I do agree with the OP here, the elves so far don't look too unlike humans at all.
High Elves and Wood Elves are a copy paste of 5e, the game doesn't go deep into the diffrent sub-race types of elves (Forgotten Realms) enough IMO.

High Elf
As a high elf, you have a keen mind and a mastery of at least the basics of magic. In many of the worlds of D&D, there are two kinds of high elves. One type (which
includes the gray elves and valley elves of Greyhawk, the Silvanesti of Dragonlance, and the sun elves of the Forgotten Realms) is haughty and reclusive, believing
themselves to be superior to non-elves and even other elves.
The other type (including the high elves of Greyhawk, the Qualinesti of Dragonlance, and the moon elves of the Forgotten Realms) are more common and more
friendly, and often encountered among humans and other races.

The sun elves of Faerûn (also called gold elves or sun-rise elves) have bronze skin and hair of copper, black, or golden blond. Their eyes are golden, silver, or black.

Moon elves (also called silver elves or gray elves) are much paler, with alabaster skin sometimes tinged with blue. They often have hair of silver-white, black, or blue,
but various shades of blond, brown, and red are not uncommon. Their eyes are blue or green and flecked with gold.


Copy/paste from freebe pdf, page: 17

I don't have the info on Eladrin or how they are interpreted in 5e for forgotten realms. 4e which I have info on does a different take on the FR elves since its only elves and eladrin with no subtypes.

My favorite pic of a Eladrin in the forgotten realms phb 4e
[Linked Image from i.pinimg.com]

curious if they make it to bg3 if they will be tossed off to the side like drow or put under elves as a subrace.

edit*this is part of the info I was going to post on the drow thread but decided just to toss it here since this thread is general is more about all elves.
The half elves faces are actually my favorite ones, so if they changed that, they could just put those faces for humans, since I don’t like the current faces for humans, that’s why I keep creating half elves.
I think elves should look different indeed. Because in 5e, they are inhabitants of the Feywild and should be distinct in terms of appearance with the races of the mortal plane, even more so than they used to be in previous editions.

And I agree, the tieflings are the best non humans looking in the game right now. Larian managed to give them a kind of unique appeal and sexiness which befits their devilish origins.
I also agree my biggest gripe is that we have to choose from preset and I absolutely despise that. They wanted us to go wild with the character creator yet they lock us into preset of other people faces. The elves are the most non looking elves ive seen as someone mentioned the half-elf preset look more like an elf than the elf does.
I like my elf pc's face and don't want it to be changed or removed. It would be great to have additional head options, though.
Originally Posted by Kurre
Really would like to see more sharper/slender/angular features for the elves in BG3. Also otherwordly almond shaped eyes! Hopefully this is addressed in some ways before the full release. As of now they just look like regular humans with pointy ears in my opinion. Doesn't look like elves at all for me.

Looking forward to getting this game!

No really, I think the elves are fine. I despise the "jackass" ear elves like in DOS and Warcraft. I am actually really fine with the elves looking more Tolkien (I know, blasphemy right)..
Originally Posted by Lotus
I also agree my biggest gripe is that we have to choose from preset and I absolutely despise that. They wanted us to go wild with the character creator yet they lock us into preset of other people faces. The elves are the most non looking elves ive seen as someone mentioned the half-elf preset look more like an elf than the elf does.

More than likely, and I want to say I read it somewhere. This is not the complete character creator. Supposedly there will be more options when it goes live. If not, that is why I love the mod community.
Posted By: Lethan Re: Elves are not Elven - 24/04/21 10:46 PM
This has my complete support.

Whilst we've gotten used to the LOTR film Elven archtype, I'm moderately sure the original influences are where D&D got their own throw on it... and whilst I'm not against the typical pointy ear humans we have, I'd prefer them to spend the appropriate amount of time on each and every race. Especially given the love they've shown to Tieflings and Dwarves. ( Just need more beards, horns and hair for both parties )

Considering a heavy number of Fae/Fairy races will likely not be added due to them being Small/Tiny/Winged etc; I would like the Fae touched races we do have, to actually look the part! Even if it means morphing/ruining Shadowheart's current face (and it is a nice one) she looks more like a Quarter Elf, not a Half.
Posted By: lilmonster Re: Elves are not Elven - 27/04/21 01:03 AM
Originally Posted by Pandemonica
Originally Posted by Kurre
Really would like to see more sharper/slender/angular features for the elves in BG3. Also otherwordly almond shaped eyes! Hopefully this is addressed in some ways before the full release. As of now they just look like regular humans with pointy ears in my opinion. Doesn't look like elves at all for me.

Looking forward to getting this game!

No really, I think the elves are fine. I despise the "jackass" ear elves like in DOS and Warcraft. I am actually really fine with the elves looking more Tolkien (I know, blasphemy right)..

You are entitled to your opinion, but that does not change the fact that the elves in Forgotten Realms have a specific appearance and, although this changes slightly with each edition of the books, they have retained most of their characteristics. After years of playing D&D in this setting and reading the novels, most of us are really invested in the universe and want it to be represented correctly.
Posted By: Goldberry Re: Elves are not Elven - 02/05/21 02:53 PM
Originally Posted by lilmonster
You are entitled to your opinion, but that does not change the fact that the elves in Forgotten Realms have a specific appearance and, although this changes slightly with each edition of the books, they have retained most of their characteristics. After years of playing D&D in this setting and reading the novels, most of us are really invested in the universe and want it to be represented correctly.

This exactly! Thank you.


Originally Posted by Lethan
This has my complete support.

Whilst we've gotten used to the LOTR film Elven archtype, I'm moderately sure the original influences are where D&D got their own throw on it... and whilst I'm not against the typical pointy ear humans we have, I'd prefer them to spend the appropriate amount of time on each and every race. Especially given the love they've shown to Tieflings and Dwarves. ( Just need more beards, horns and hair for both parties )

Considering a heavy number of Fae/Fairy races will likely not be added due to them being Small/Tiny/Winged etc; I would like the Fae touched races we do have, to actually look the part! Even if it means morphing/ruining Shadowheart's current face (and it is a nice one) she looks more like a Quarter Elf, not a Half.

Right? They really outdid themselves with tieflings. It only stands to show how amazing elves could look if they actually paid them some attention.
Posted By: Nyloth Re: Elves are not Elven - 02/05/21 05:21 PM
Originally Posted by Goldberry
Right?

No. Don't touch Astarion's perfect face.
Also Shadow is a half-elf.
Posted By: Aazo Re: Elves are not Elven - 07/05/21 04:10 AM
Originally Posted by Nyloth
Originally Posted by Goldberry
Right?

No. Don't touch Astarion's perfect face.
Also Shadow is a half-elf.

The problem with Astarian... is he looks like a human with pointy ears, not an elf. At best he would be a half elf. The only male "elf" face that even comes close to looking like an elf is #2. And for female it's #3.
Posted By: Alexandrite Re: Elves are not Elven - 07/05/21 06:16 AM
Originally Posted by Nyloth
Originally Posted by Goldberry
Right?

No. Don't touch Astarion's perfect face.

100% agree! He's perfect just the way he is!
I don't even understand the mods that exist to make him look younger somehow. He's not a teenager, he's got that perfect ageless quality about him.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Elves are not Elven - 07/05/21 08:09 AM
I do wonder if this will be considered. LOTR movies imprinted a new elf image in people's minds. I mean, even elves in Tolkien's world were not supposed to be humans with pointed ears, but after the movies...

I bet Larian didn't even give it much thought. The general public now views elves like this, and it is easier to implement, so...

I say this because until reading this and other posts about elves and drow, I didn't even think about it. I remember seeing the first guy elf model and even thinking, "Ah. I can be Legolas."

Also, thinking back to other video games and such for D&D, I don't think there is much of a difference in those games either between humans and elves.

I'm not saying they shouldn't do something about this. Im just saying that for most people, it will probably go unnoticed. In fact, many non-D&D players might even freak out if elves don't look like humans with pointy ears. You know. "What the crap! Why do all elves look so weird? I wanted to make an elf character who looks like Legolas, not something closer to a Christmas elf."
Posted By: Ragnarök Re: Elves are not Elven - 07/05/21 09:20 AM
I'll second the op, that I consider the male elf faces to be too squarish in BG3. Actually I think the male half elven faces look more elven to me, than the pure elven faces. Astarion is fine, being an elven vampire spawn and not looking like a teengaer, which wouldn't fit. I'm talking about the male elven faces the character creation screen offers, which for me are too squarish.
Posted By: Alexandrite Re: Elves are not Elven - 07/05/21 09:35 AM
Yeah I definitely agree - I grew up with Tolkien's "Lord of the Rings" book, and although the movies weren't my first introduction to fantasy, for a lot of people they were - and that's generally the most popular image of elf-kind that has stuck with people in general. Not to mention Tolkien himself changed the broader perception of elves from "small pixie-like fairy trickster creatures" as in English folklore, to "beautiful, elegant humanoid beings with pointy ears" in the first place.

I see where the die-hard DnD players with particular mental images are coming from, but it's most likely that most players of BG3 come from a generic fantasy/RPG background rather than a DnD-specific background? (I could be wrong!) So it makes sense to appeal to the broader audience that will go "oh, pretty person with pointy ears - ok that's an elf" as opposed to "WTF is that weird fairy/pixie thing?"

That said, there is still room to refine the elven features for player characters. Just add some new face options that are more slender and elegant.

Just leave the elf NPCs alone! laugh they're already awesome.

(Sorry if half of what i said has already been discussed, I'm coming in very late into this thread and haven't read the whole thing.)
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Elves are not Elven - 07/05/21 10:03 AM
Im a little confused why Lord of the Rings should be even relevant here ...
Its completely different setting, in completely different universe, from completely different autor, and with completely different rules. O_o

I mean, dont get me wrong, i know that LotR was kinda iconic Movie for our generation ...
But in game industry, i would dare to say Major fantasy settings are Warcraft or the Elder Scrolls ...
Warcraft is probably kinda too cartonish to be concidered, yet since nobody claimed that "proper elf should have half meter long ears" ... people seem to understand that different settings means different visuals. wink
In Elder Scrolls tho, especialy Skyrim ... elves actualy do have triangle shaped faces, and i never heard about anyone who would have problem with that. O_o
Posted By: Tarlonniel Re: Elves are not Elven - 07/05/21 12:47 PM
Larian had no problem making their elves look very un-Tolkienish in their previous game.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Elves are not Elven - 07/05/21 01:27 PM
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Im a little confused why Lord of the Rings should be even relevant here ...
Its completely different setting, in completely different universe, from completely different autor, and with completely different rules. O_o

I mean, dont get me wrong, i know that LotR was kinda iconic Movie for our generation ...
But in game industry, i would dare to say Major fantasy settings are Warcraft or the Elder Scrolls ...
Warcraft is probably kinda too cartonish to be concidered, yet since nobody claimed that "proper elf should have half meter long ears" ... people seem to understand that different settings means different visuals. wink
In Elder Scrolls tho, especialy Skyrim ... elves actualy do have triangle shaped faces, and i never heard about anyone who would have problem with that. O_o

My point, RagnarokCzD, was that people are used to seeing elves as pointy-eared humans because of the LOTR movies and other media renditions of elves where they are humans with pointy ears. That's all. Most of what they have seen of elves is that image.

The other point I was making by calling out LOTR is that Tolkien's original concept for elves was nothing like humans with pointed ears. His original descriptions were quite different. They were more fairy-like. So the movie and other media's renditions of elves is not even true to Tolkien, who was somewhat of the original basis for elves in D&D.

Anyway, humans with pointy ears is what a lot of people think of, now, when it comes to elves, and that was my point. They don't standardly think of elves as described in D&D, and even a lot of D&D art doesn't depict elves as something different from humans with pointy ears. So, I imagine it didn't even cross Larian's minds. Even if it did, they were probably thinking that anything but human with pointy ears for elves would seem weird to the general audience.
Posted By: Nyloth Re: Elves are not Elven - 07/05/21 03:30 PM
Originally Posted by Alexandrite
Originally Posted by Nyloth
Originally Posted by Goldberry
Right?

No. Don't touch Astarion's perfect face.

100% agree! He's perfect just the way he is!
I don't even understand the mods that exist to make him look younger somehow. He's not a teenager, he's got that perfect ageless quality about him.


He has perfect visual age, after all, his voice actor is a grown man for a reason. I also do not know why some ppl are trying make him look younger, idk maybe they like teenagers or adult young. But here they are discussing something quite different, if such corrections affect characters, then literally structure of his face will change.



Originally Posted by Tarlonniel
Larian had no problem making their elves look very un-Tolkienish in their previous game.

But it wasn't about faces, their faces looked pretty normal, but their bodies were terrifying.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Elves are not Elven - 07/05/21 03:52 PM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
My point, RagnarokCzD, was that people are used to seeing elves as pointy-eared humans because of the LOTR movies and other media renditions of elves where they are humans with pointy ears. That's all. Most of what they have seen of elves is that image.
Yup ... and my point was that you cannot mix Games and Movies, since no actor would be so dedicated to his work, to willingly undergo plastic surgery to change the shape of bones, cartilage and rotation of the eyes. laugh
Therefore > games should be measure for games, and movies should be measure for movies. wink

Originally Posted by GM4Him
The other point I was making by calling out LOTR is that Tolkien's original concept for elves was nothing like humans with pointed ears. His original descriptions were quite different. They were more fairy-like. So the movie and other media's renditions of elves is not even true to Tolkien, who was somewhat of the original basis for elves in D&D.
Same reason as abowe ...
Plus its cheaper that way. laugh

Originally Posted by GM4Him
Anyway, humans with pointy ears is what a lot of people think of, now, when it comes to elves, and that was my point. They don't standardly think of elves as described in D&D, and even a lot of D&D art doesn't depict elves as something different from humans with pointy ears. So, I imagine it didn't even cross Larian's minds. Even if it did, they were probably thinking that anything but human with pointy ears for elves would seem weird to the general audience.
Well ... you say "lot of people" ... i would say that 15 pages of this topic sugest otherwise. laugh
Same as allready mentioned games as Warcraft, the Elder Scrolls, Warhammer, Dragon Age, Divinity: Original Sin 2, and certainly not least Baldurs Gate 1 + 2. laugh

But anyway i honestly dont even care if they did, or didnt think about it ...
What i would like to know, is if there even is any chance that now, when it was mentioned ... and looking at those 15 pages, i would dare to say supported by conciderable amount of players ... if it will be implemented.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Elves are not Elven - 07/05/21 04:21 PM
There are like 20,000 posts on Steam. I have no idea how many other threads on other sites. 15 pages of the same people going back and forth on a single thread doesn't really speak to a huge number of players. My entire point was just that people outside of fantasy fans would be more familiar with the LOTR movie experience. Not saying it's the correct concept. Just saying that it makes sense that Larian may have implemented humans with pointy ears without thought simply because of this perception.

That said, I'm not trying to resist Larian changing the looks of elves (including drow) to match D&D descriptions. I wouldn't mind at all if they changed a lot of the images of the character models we have to choose from. Halflings, for example, look weird. I'd kinda like to see them look a bit differently.

Halflings are supposed to be, according to https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Halfling, "small in comparison with the members of most other races, standing somewhere from 2′8″‒3′4″ (81‒100 cm) tall and weighing on average between 30‒35 lb (14‒16 kg). In many ways, halflings resembled small humans and usually had the same proportions as the typical human adult. Most halflings had dark hair and eyes, regardless of their skin complexion which, although commonly ruddy in hue had a similar range to humans. Nearly all male halflings were incapable of growing true beards, though many had long sideburns. Halfling hairstyles were often complex, with strands woven together or braided. Although halflings had an affinity for collecting valuables, they did not prefer to wear these on their person, instead preferring more comfortable clothing."

This is what elves SHOULD look like, though, in Forgotten Realms based on the same website https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Elf: "Elves stood on average 5′4″‒6′0″ (1.6‒1.8 m) and weighed 130‒170 lb (59‒77 kg). USUALLY, true elves were a naturally slender and athletic race. Elves had a similar range of complexions to humans, with wood elves typically coppery or pale skinned and wild elves having darker pigmentation. Often, elven hair was dark, either brown or black, with copper red or blond hair also found amongst wood elves, although orange or even green hues were not completely unheard of. Elven eyes are commonly brown, hazel, or an emerald green. Elves, like their cousins the eladrin, were fair and beautiful, handsome, and had pointed ears and no body hair except eyebrows, eyelashes, and hair. Elves matured at roughly the same rate as humans, though they were not usually considered past adolescence until they reached 110 years of age. Unlike humans, elves did not age dramatically as their lifespan came to a close, with the most obvious changes being a change in hair color, alternatively graying or darkening. Most elves remained healthy and full of life up until their death, which, if age-related, was usually between two and nine centuries."

So, not really seeing anything there saying they HAVE to look different from humans with pointy ears. It just says they are usually slender and athletic and that they have pointy ears and are beautiful or handsome.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Elves are not Elven - 07/05/21 04:39 PM
Then you should read this topic ... from the beginning.
Posted By: Goldberry Re: Elves are not Elven - 07/05/21 04:41 PM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
This is what elves SHOULD look like, though, in Forgotten Realms based on the same website https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Elf: "Elves stood on average 5′4″‒6′0″ (1.6‒1.8 m) and weighed 130‒170 lb (59‒77 kg). USUALLY, true elves were a naturally slender and athletic race. Elves had a similar range of complexions to humans, with wood elves typically coppery or pale skinned and wild elves having darker pigmentation. Often, elven hair was dark, either brown or black, with copper red or blond hair also found amongst wood elves, although orange or even green hues were not completely unheard of. Elven eyes are commonly brown, hazel, or an emerald green. Elves, like their cousins the eladrin, were fair and beautiful, handsome, and had pointed ears and no body hair except eyebrows, eyelashes, and hair. Elves matured at roughly the same rate as humans, though they were not usually considered past adolescence until they reached 110 years of age. Unlike humans, elves did not age dramatically as their lifespan came to a close, with the most obvious changes being a change in hair color, alternatively graying or darkening. Most elves remained healthy and full of life up until their death, which, if age-related, was usually between two and nine centuries."

So, not really seeing anything there saying they HAVE to look different from humans with pointy ears. It just says they are usually slender and athletic and that they have pointy ears and are beautiful or handsome.

You can't expect the wiki to give you all of the information of a race that you could possibly need. Like someone else said, you should read the topic from the beggining, I've made a compilation with canon and handbook material, and if it isn't clear, I can make an even more complete one.

Otherwise, you can do some research of your own by reading from the source manuals instead of the wiki smile
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Elves are not Elven - 07/05/21 07:42 PM
Sorry. Perhaps that came across wrong. I should have said, "According to this particular Forgotten Realms Wiki site, this is what elves should look like. I don't see anything in there that says they HAVE to look different from humans with pointy ears. So it depends on where you look. If Larian just pulled up this website, for example, they would think that elves should just be slender and athletic and have pointy ears...oh, and be beautiful and handsome."

In other words, I didn't mean to sound like I was arguing against your points. Like I said, "I'm not trying to resist Larian changing the looks of elves (including drow) to match D&D descriptions. I wouldn't mind at all if they changed a lot of the images of the character models we have to choose from."

ALL I was trying to say is that I hadn't even thought about it until reading this thread because I'm just so used to seeing humans with pointy ears as elves thanks to LOTR and other media representations of elves. I have become so used to elves being depicted this way that it didn't even register in my brain that it was different. Same with dwarven females, really. I just didn't even think about how in D&D, dwarves should look like:

"Dwarven males were a bit taller and heavier than their female counterparts.[10] Like humans, dwarves had a wide variety of skin, eye, and hair colors, typically pale among shield dwarves and deeply tanned or brown amongst gold dwarves. Hazel eyes were common throughout the race, with blue eyes more common amongst shield dwarves and brown or green eyes found amongst the gold dwarves.[9] Male dwarves were often bald and grew thick facial hair, which was sometimes used to display social status. Unusually for humanoids, both sexes naturally grew ample facial hair,[11] though the majority of shield dwarf females shaved their beards off.[12] This hair was often dark in hue, though among shield dwarves blond or red hair was just as common. Gold dwarves took the care of facial hair to an extreme, carefully oiling and grooming it,[9] with some adding perfume and ornamentations.[11]"

So, again, not trying to say they shouldn't fix the models. If anything, they should fix them all. Height, weight, build, facial hair, pointed ears, not pointed ears, or whatever, they should all fit the true D&D/ Forgotten Realms descriptions. If they want a few humanish looking variants for elves to make LOTR fans more comfortable, I'm sure there are some elves that would fit that mold, but for the most part they probably should go with the true D&D build so that it meets the true standards of the world they are trying to recreate.
Posted By: fallenj Re: Elves are not Elven - 08/05/21 02:06 AM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
There are like 20,000 posts on Steam. I have no idea how many other threads on other sites. 15 pages of the same people going back and forth on a single thread doesn't really speak to a huge number of players. My entire point was just that people outside of fantasy fans would be more familiar with the LOTR movie experience. Not saying it's the correct concept. Just saying that it makes sense that Larian may have implemented humans with pointy ears without thought simply because of this perception.

That said, I'm not trying to resist Larian changing the looks of elves (including drow) to match D&D descriptions. I wouldn't mind at all if they changed a lot of the images of the character models we have to choose from. Halflings, for example, look weird. I'd kinda like to see them look a bit differently.

Halflings are supposed to be, according to https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Halfling, "small in comparison with the members of most other races, standing somewhere from 2′8″‒3′4″ (81‒100 cm) tall and weighing on average between 30‒35 lb (14‒16 kg). In many ways, halflings resembled small humans and usually had the same proportions as the typical human adult. Most halflings had dark hair and eyes, regardless of their skin complexion which, although commonly ruddy in hue had a similar range to humans. Nearly all male halflings were incapable of growing true beards, though many had long sideburns. Halfling hairstyles were often complex, with strands woven together or braided. Although halflings had an affinity for collecting valuables, they did not prefer to wear these on their person, instead preferring more comfortable clothing."

This is what elves SHOULD look like, though, in Forgotten Realms based on the same website https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Elf: "Elves stood on average 5′4″‒6′0″ (1.6‒1.8 m) and weighed 130‒170 lb (59‒77 kg). USUALLY, true elves were a naturally slender and athletic race. Elves had a similar range of complexions to humans, with wood elves typically coppery or pale skinned and wild elves having darker pigmentation. Often, elven hair was dark, either brown or black, with copper red or blond hair also found amongst wood elves, although orange or even green hues were not completely unheard of. Elven eyes are commonly brown, hazel, or an emerald green. Elves, like their cousins the eladrin, were fair and beautiful, handsome, and had pointed ears and no body hair except eyebrows, eyelashes, and hair. Elves matured at roughly the same rate as humans, though they were not usually considered past adolescence until they reached 110 years of age. Unlike humans, elves did not age dramatically as their lifespan came to a close, with the most obvious changes being a change in hair color, alternatively graying or darkening. Most elves remained healthy and full of life up until their death, which, if age-related, was usually between two and nine centuries."

So, not really seeing anything there saying they HAVE to look different from humans with pointy ears. It just says they are usually slender and athletic and that they have pointy ears and are beautiful or handsome.

Comparing a film where actual families can sit down and watch a movie with there kids vs a video game is rubbish. You want to know what the common elf people generally would think of? It would be this:



World of Warcraft was a major critical and commercial success upon its original release in 2004 and quickly became the most popular MMORPG of all-time, reaching a peak of 12 million subscribers in 2010.[4] The game had over one hundred million registered accounts by 2014[5] and by 2017, had grossed over $9.23 billion in revenue, making it one of the highest-grossing video game franchises of all time. The game has been cited by gaming journalists as the greatest MMORPG of all-time and one of the greatest video games of all time and has also been noted for its long lifespan, continuing to receive developer support and expansion packs over 15 years since its initial release.
Third paragraph down, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_of_Warcraft

Halfling thread just encase anyone is interested

Description for each edition of d&d changes, for example Eladrin:
4e
[Linked Image from images1.wikia.nocookie.net]
5e
[Linked Image from i.pinimg.com]

All elves originated from the Feywild, Eladrin stayed while Wood/Wild (Green elves) left along with drow (brown elves? Lolth did something and brown elves turned purple/blue/black, not related to eye color, and no im not going to look this rubbish up). Long term exposure to material plane changed how they look but generally still look like stupid elves with pointy ears and triangle shaped faces. 3.5 has diagram of it, someone posted the pic on this thread. Go through the pages of this thread and look at the pictures.

ELVES ARE NOT HUMANS, THEY ALL COME FROM FEYWILD
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Elves are not Elven - 08/05/21 02:33 AM
@fallenj

Did you read my last post. I'm not saying you're wrong or the others. I agree. It would be cool if they updated all the models.

I even said, "That said, I'm not trying to resist Larian changing the looks of elves (including drow) to match D&D descriptions. I wouldn't mind at all if they changed a lot of the images of the character models we have to choose from. Halflings, for example, look weird. I'd kinda like to see them look a bit differently."

My whole point about bringing LOTR into it was that I'm sure I'm not alone when I say that I didn't even think about what elves and drow are supposed to look like because I'm used to seeing elves as pointy eared humans. That's it. Not saying they should remain that way. Just saying that it might throw some people off if they don't see pointy eared humans.

Go to Google Images and type elves. Do you see pointy eared humans or elves based on D&D descriptions? Again, not saying it's right, but whether its right is not the point. The most prominent images I see are humans with pointy ears.
Posted By: fallenj Re: Elves are not Elven - 08/05/21 03:06 AM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
@fallenj

Did you read my last post. I'm not saying you're wrong or the others. I agree. It would be cool if they updated all the models.

I even said, "That said, I'm not trying to resist Larian changing the looks of elves (including drow) to match D&D descriptions. I wouldn't mind at all if they changed a lot of the images of the character models we have to choose from. Halflings, for example, look weird. I'd kinda like to see them look a bit differently."

My whole point about bringing LOTR into it was that I'm sure I'm not alone when I say that I didn't even think about what elves and drow are supposed to look like because I'm used to seeing elves as pointy eared humans. That's it. Not saying they should remain that way. Just saying that it might throw some people off if they don't see pointy eared humans.

Go to Google Images and type elves. Do you see pointy eared humans or elves based on D&D descriptions? Again, not saying it's right, but whether its right is not the point. The most prominent images I see are humans with pointy ears.

ya you was talking in general of what you think the population see's how elves look, I replied with the World of Warcraft section since it's been around longer and is one of the top games with elves. When I see elves they have a distinct look generally long faces triangle shaped with pointy ears.

searched bing for elves, got christmas elves that more so look like gnomes...
Posted By: CJMPinger Re: Elves are not Elven - 08/05/21 04:12 AM
I think people typically think of the elf they were first exposed to in a meaningful way when told to think of an elf, so when I think of elf I actually think of elves from Elder Scrolls (Morrowind and Oblivion), with the Bosmer, Altmer, and Dunmer. Especially Dunmer and them calling me an outlander constantly...
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Elves are not Elven - 08/05/21 04:49 AM
Nah. I still remember the old Rankin Bass Hobbit. I can tell you, Thranduil and the elves were a bit freaky in that, but that's not how I think of elves.

I think of Dragonlance.

https://www.google.com/search?q=elv...vsn&safe=active#imgrc=1oTzaHZ5gxXRgM

https://www.google.com/search?q=elv...vsn&safe=active#imgrc=V6WruDPRVDWa-M

https://images.app.goo.gl/EGfo6F3TEEZV5bXKA


And Forgotten Realms Books

https://images.app.goo.gl/Gaxb2zcRTDxixv6a7

https://images.app.goo.gl/chZhxCkGpGwVZHJu5

https://images.app.goo.gl/Ps4QmHZ79u7GfgyJ8
Posted By: Leucrotta Re: Elves are not Elven - 08/05/21 05:04 AM
The elves are very pretty in BG III (as are all the character models), but I find them pretty indistinguishable from humans and half elves.. If you lined up Shadowheart and Halsin and told me to pick out the half elf, honestly I'd probably pick Halsin. I think they might have used face scans for the models, which would explain a lot-there really aren't a lot of IRL people I can think of who have the extreme triangular/heart shaped faces and large, inward tilted eyes characteristic of earlier editions depictions of elves.

I wonder what Larion will do if/when they bring back any of the elven companions from the previous two games-how accurate they want to make them to their character portraits. I mean, Aerie would look a bit like an alien even if you put her next to one of the more cheekbone-y elves in BGIII like Kahga,
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Elves are not Elven - 08/05/21 09:18 AM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Go to Google Images and type elves. Do you see pointy eared humans or elves based on D&D descriptions? Again, not saying it's right, but whether its right is not the point. The most prominent images I see are humans with pointy ears.
Just for the record ...
Google (as well as others searching paiges) uses your cookies to adjust searching on internet and gives you result, that will probably be "most relevant for you" ...
So in theory, if you and i both "type elves" in google, we bot get different pictures. wink

//edit:
Anyway ... even if you find kazzilion pictures of round shaped face elves, that dont mean they should have rounded face ... it only means that kazzilion autors are drawing them wrong. laugh
Like many authors quite commonly ignores the differences between Wyverna and the Dragon in fantasy. wink
Posted By: Chief_Jericho Re: Elves are not Elven - 08/05/21 11:53 AM
I'm no AD&D aficionado but I read they're meant to be stunningly beautiful. I looked though those official art work pics and they look closer to one of the Greys. I don't know about you but that's not my idea of beauty. I will say this. I for one am glad Larian's reigned in on the arms race of ear length and foregone the ridiculous Fu Manchu eyebrows of WoW. Elves originate in Tolkein's works (well they actually come out of Northern European folklore but that's another thing) and were more akin to Vulkans from Start Trek in terms of ears but in the last decade or so they've somehow ended up with ears longer than your arms. So personally, unless the model has changed since the OP, I think Larian's done a pretty good job on Elves. Could do with shorter ears but generally better than anyone else in the last 15 years.
I love the design of the elves in BG3! delight
Either way is fine with me. I certainly wouldn't mind true elf models but I honestly think it is subject to interpretation.

They say elves are beautiful, but beauty is not the same for all. Some, myself included, do not think that a lot of the true elf images are beautiful at all. I also didn't think Aerie was beautiful, and I didn't really like her character. I liked Jaheira, but she looked to me like a human with pointy ears.

I've also seen drow images both as pointy eared dark skinned people and true drow portraits, and I always preferred the more human looking images.

But, on the other hand, variety is good. Elves looking like humans with pointy ears makes them not as diverse and special. They're just humans with pointy ears. nothing more. It might be more interesting to have true elven models so people can really see the differences between the two. I mean, it is sad that if you choose the wrong hairstyle that covers the ears, you can't even tell if you chose to be a human or elf.
Elves are usualy concidered beautifull, bcs their faces are symetric (unlike humans) ...
Nothing more, nothing less. wink
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Either way is fine with me. I certainly wouldn't mind true elf models but I honestly think it is subject to interpretation.

What is a true elf model ? The models in the OP are the artistic proposition of an artist who had been working for 5 year long with wotc, twenty years ago. Nothing more, nothing canon. It's also worth mentionning he worked a lot in the science fiction area. I think that Larian options are as valid as any other, whether people like it or not is another debate.
Btw, in the OP, the BG2 portraits certainly do not represent all elves in that game, the best example being the queen Ellesime. Even Jaheira (half-elf) was very different in the first BG game.
My criteria is simple: if - after blocking an elf's ears with my fingers - I can't tell them apart from a human, they fail the "Elf Test". Barring some of the drow/dark elf options, most of the elves ("half-" hybrids included) in Baldur's Gate III fail the Elf Test. While I don't have a lot personally invested in this game, it is still disappointing to see Larian take the path of least resistance when it comes a staple race of the Dungeons & Dragons franchise. I am curious...did they make this decision because contemporary people in general are more sensitive to the "uncanny valley"?

By the way, I'm not letting certain D&D artists off the hook; there are official art pieces displaying "humans with pointy ears". However, there are also pieces of art that clearly live up to the core/canon written descriptions of how elves should look.
I think this comes from other games and Tolkien lore. BG1 and BG2.... Elves defintely do not look like humans in BG1 and BG2. They have more Elven like faces and not only pointy ears.

Belle Delphine you can google her is my favorite dresser of human as Elf woman. She has dressed to all kind of things including Cat and also Elves.

That being said no I am not some ultra fan of her have not bought her bathwater. She attracts me to her looks, music (I am back tune despite I know she does not sing most of it), artistic talent. She is on top of that a GAMER girl that plays games. She is considered NUMBER 1 E-GIRL.

Elves live almost an eternity and age ultra slowly.
Belle Delphine started her career underage as teen, but nowadays is young adult.
Reminds me of Britnery Spears when she made her first song that made popular she was 17.

There is no CELEBRITY person that I am ultra fan of so I would must meet live so I am not super much into fandom and no I have not bought any of Belle Delphine products though I have seen her youtube videos and seen some very nice pictures of her as an Elf.
I would not mess with Belle Delphine fandom crowd. Here is a true story. She has millions of fans. Youtube banned her.... that got her fans enraged and youtube very quickly unbanned Belle Delphine saying a mistake has been made though some of her old videos remained deleted from youtube. I can imagine the feedback was not nice to youtube when they banned Belle Delphine.

Now Elves in BG3 are kind of ok, but could be better with that I mean more Elven.
Below are some images of elves that I found; some of these images are old while others are fairly new. With the fan-art exceptions of Corellon with Eilistraee and Aerie (at the very bottom of the images in the next post), all pieces are for official Dungeons & Dragons products.



[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

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[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

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Agree to disagree if you wish, but I feel that these characters all look fairly elven without being utterly hideous the way other franchises portray the fair folk.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 31/07/21 05:50 AM
I believe OP already covered the most explanatory pictures. O_o
Posted By: fallenj Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 31/07/21 02:33 PM
I'll post it here, was reading through my 4e forgotten realms players handbook and came across something that shocked me. The muscular elf in BG3 (forgot his name), would actually legit make sense in forgotten realms. He would be considered a Wild Elf; based on this description wild elves are more muscular than wood elves. Exposure to the sun makes their skin dark but does little to their black or chestnut brown hair. Many wild elves also decorate themselves with tattoos, war paints, and ritual scars.

Curious, does 5e say anything related to green elves/wood elves/wild elves?
Posted By: Icelyn Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 31/07/21 03:48 PM
Originally Posted by fallenj
I'll post it here, was reading through my 4e forgotten realms players handbook and came across something that shocked me. The muscular elf in BG3 (forgot his name), would actually legit make sense in forgotten realms.
Yay! celebrate
Posted By: Ragitsu Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 31/07/21 05:39 PM
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
I believe OP already covered the most explanatory pictures. O_o

When one is forming a case of this nature, it is imperative that the evidence be overwhelming.

Originally Posted by fallenj
The muscular elf in BG3 (forgot his name), would actually legit make sense in forgotten realms.

Come to think of it, subrace exception(s) aside, elves in general aren't feeble; if anything, it appears that elves are stronger than the baseline race (i.e., human). How? Well, consider this: elves tend to be both shorter and slimmer than humans, yet they do not suffer a penalty to Strength.
Posted By: fallenj Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 31/07/21 10:08 PM
Originally Posted by Ragitsu
Originally Posted by fallenj
The muscular elf in BG3 (forgot his name), would actually legit make sense in forgotten realms.

Come to think of it, subrace exception(s) aside, elves in general aren't feeble; if anything, it appears that elves are stronger than the baseline race (i.e., human). How? Well, consider this: elves tend to be both shorter and slimmer than humans, yet they do not suffer a penalty to Strength.

Oh that's a good one, never thought about the attribute layout.
Posted By: Ragitsu Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 01/08/21 12:23 AM
Originally Posted by Blacas
[quote=GM4Him]What is a true elf model ? The models in the OP are the artistic proposition of an artist who had been working for 5 year long with wotc, twenty years ago. Nothing more, nothing canon.

That's a bit dismissive not to mention somewhat inaccurate in the aggregate. Several artists over D&D's forty-odd years of publication have rendered elves recognizable as elves based on official/core/canon descriptions. They don't all look precisely the same - and I don't think anyone would argue that - but each zeitgeist produced something unique while identifiable as distinctly inhuman.
Posted By: Ragitsu Re: Elves are not Elven - 03/08/21 11:07 PM
Originally Posted by Leucrotta
I wonder what Larion will do if/when they bring back any of the elven companions from the previous two games-how accurate they want to make them to their character portraits. I mean, Aerie would look a bit like an alien even if you put her next to one of the more cheekbone-y elves in BGIII like Kahga,

Terrific point! Aerie's unquestionably elven mien would most certainly be butchered if her face were made to conform to those of Larian's Humaelves. Coran and Kivan may have an easier time fitting in, however.

Originally Posted by Icelyn
I love the design of the elves in BG3! delight

What elves?

wink

Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Elves are usualy concidered beautifull, bcs their faces are symetric (unlike humans) ...
Nothing more, nothing less. wink

May you please cite your (official) source?
Posted By: Terminator2020 Re: Elves are not Elven - 04/08/21 10:31 AM
Originally Posted by Ragitsu
Originally Posted by Leucrotta
I wonder what Larion will do if/when they bring back any of the elven companions from the previous two games-how accurate they want to make them to their character portraits. I mean, Aerie would look a bit like an alien even if you put her next to one of the more cheekbone-y elves in BGIII like Kahga,

Terrific point! Aerie's unquestionably elven mien would most certainly be butchered if her face were made to conform to those of Larian's Humaelves. Coran and Kivan may have an easier time fitting in, however.

Originally Posted by Icelyn
I love the design of the elves in BG3! delight
ve
What elves?

wink

Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Elves are usualy concidered beautifull, bcs their faces are symetric (unlike humans) ...
Nothing more, nothing less. wink

May you please cite your (official) source?
No offense, but you go a bit to hardcore for lore of source of Elves looks for my taste.

The male specially (women less) look to Human like I think of current Elves in BG3. Elves typically mora angular handsome, beautiful and the male Elf slightly to broad face human like face for my taste. Well not saying they look awful, but agree the Male Elves (you can choose the default look) look to human like slightly.

I would accept Belle Delphine with her looks and pointy Elven ears. Do not confuse with her cat pictures and she has been dressed both as cat and an Elf. I am not talking about her most seducively or say extreeme face pictures, but one of less extreeme that is clearly not adult only content not even near that.
I admire BELLE as CELEBRITY star and she started her career already at underage reminds of Britney Spears that became STAR at age of 17 with her first major song. Belle Delphine pictures 17-21 age she is young 21 currently. Elves should look young and if they aged they do it extreemely slowly and live for thousands of years.

Do not mess with BELLE Delphine Celebrity fans cool and yes I am her fan:
She got banned from youtube her account. That enraged millions of fans and some of these fans can be very extreeme and youtube quickly declared a mistake has been made and unbanned her though some of her old videos remain deleted. I have never bought any of her products though I am subscriber of her youtube account and a fan that have seen lot of her videos and pictures. She is considered NUMBER 1 E-girl that means GAMER (computer games and/or console games) girl that is CELEBRITY. There is nothing ordinary or boring about her. One point she made a suicide video and then dissapeared for months and rumors started to spread she might be dead until she again appeared. Unfortunately this PRO suicide video is one of the videos that remain deleted by youtube.

Oh and do not say I dont like Elven looking. I love the LOTR movies (the Hobbit movies more average then good) and we were hardcore and dressed up to fantasy clothes when watching LOTR 1, 2 and 3 movies in cinema when they were released. We were roleplayers already by then. Many start roplaying already as teenaager.

Yes and I have read TOLKIEN books. Well and I have played DnD paper and pen and played BG1, BG2 and BG3 Early Access to name a few games of many games that I have played.
Posted By: Ragitsu Re: Elves are not Elven - 04/08/21 05:35 PM
Originally Posted by Terminator2020
-snip-

To be honest, I am not sure why you are once again bringing up that celebrity.

Also, Tolkien's seminal work may have influenced Dungeons & Dragons, but the latter franchise isn't beholden/limited to one film studio's live-action interpretation of the former.
Posted By: Terminator2020 Re: Elves are not Elven - 04/08/21 08:14 PM
Originally Posted by Ragitsu
Originally Posted by Terminator2020
-snip-

To be honest, I am not sure why you are once again bringing up that celebrity.

Also, Tolkien's seminal work may have influenced Dungeons & Dragons, but the latter franchise isn't beholden/limited to one film studio's live-action interpretation of the former.
She is the best human that has looked like a young woman Elf outside of say movies and perhaps TV series.

You could have also said simply I agree with OP. Yet you have posted more pictures. You are correct to that what DnD might have set for typical Elf look is not limited to the boundaries of LOTR movies, but yet I am content with LOTR elves for most part at least.

I begin to think we have slightly different taste. The first LOTR movie specially the actor Cate Blanchett was perfect as Galadriel the Elf Queen. My favorite scene from first LOTR movie was when hobbit Frodo offered the artifact One Ring to Elf Queen Galadriel and she became tempted by the powerful artifact One Ring power.

I begin to suspect you might want even more Elven then I. For example realistic wish is they could slightly alter the look of Male Elves and even that is not certain that Larian will do.

The 2D picture look extreemely different and these are characters in 3D. I am talking about small changes and not huge ones.
Posted By: Ragitsu Re: Elves are not Elven - 05/08/21 06:48 AM
Originally Posted by Terminator2020
Originally Posted by Ragitsu
Originally Posted by Terminator2020
-snip-

To be honest, I am not sure why you are once again bringing up that celebrity.

Also, Tolkien's seminal work may have influenced Dungeons & Dragons, but the latter franchise isn't beholden/limited to one film studio's live-action interpretation of the former.
She is the best human that has looked like a young woman Elf outside of say movies and perhaps TV series.

You could have also said simply I agree with OP. Yet you have posted more pictures. You are correct to that what DnD might have set for typical Elf look is not limited to the boundaries of LOTR movies, but yet I am content with LOTR elves for most part at least.

How are the two situations comparable? New (i.e. different) pieces of art were shared both as a means of buttressing the thread creator's argument and as an expression of solidarity. Surely, "The more, the merrier."?

Originally Posted by Terminator2020
I begin to think we have slightly different taste. The first LOTR movie specially the actor Cate Blanchett was perfect as Galadriel the Elf Queen. My favorite scene from first LOTR movie was when hobbit Frodo offered the artifact One Ring to Elf Queen Galadriel and she became tempted by the powerful artifact One Ring power.

I enjoy the films for their high production values, music and spots of brilliant acting, most definitely. That said, I didn't go in expecting them to conform to the canon/core aesthetics of Dungeons & Dragons not do I wish for Baldur's Gate III to borrow too much (if anything) from that film trilogy...if that is indeed what happened with Larian's attempt at D&D elves. By the way, take a look at New Line Cinema's version of Haldir; in D&D, this fellow's countenance would most definitely qualify as "human face".
Posted By: mr_planescapist Re: Elves are not Elven - 05/08/21 07:59 AM
Seems like nowadays only fantasy characters that can be be easily <cosplayed> are designed and inserted into games. So you have that general everyone looks the same + - some makeup/pointy hears/accessories. I guess this has a broader appeal?? Especially since most people are more interested in SEX/ROMANCES than anything else. Easier to identify oneself with characters that look similar to us. aka, easy to mastxxxxxx too smile Sex sells better than pure fantasy.
Again big YEY for Pathfinder: WoTr for including quite unique fantasy playable companions and portraits :))
My personal opinion: in your inventory screen NOTHING, not even top of the line 3D rendered CGI, tops a kick ass fantasy art portrait! Having both options would of been so great for BG3...adds 1000%+ atmosphere and RP.
[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]
[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]
Posted By: Ragitsu Re: Elves are not Elven - 05/08/21 08:39 AM
Originally Posted by mr_planescapist
Seems like nowadays only fantasy characters that can be be easily <cosplayed> are designed and inserted into games. So you have that general everyone looks the same + - some makeup/pointy hears/accessories. I guess this has a broader appeal?? Especially since most people are more interested in SEX/ROMANCES than anything else. Easier to identify oneself with characters that look similar to us. aka, easy to mastxxxxxx too smile Sex sells better than pure fantasy.
Again big YEY for Pathfinder: WoTr for including quite unique fantasy playable companions and portraits :))
My personal opinion: in your inventory screen NOTHING, not even top of the line 3D rendered CGI, tops a kick ass fantasy art portrait! Having both options would of been so great for BG3...adds 1000%+ atmosphere and RP.
[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]
[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]

Man oh man...Gale looks like the most normal character thus far.
Posted By: Terminator2020 Re: Elves are not Elven - 05/08/21 09:19 AM
Originally Posted by mr_planescapist
Seems like nowadays only fantasy characters that can be be easily <cosplayed> are designed and inserted into games. So you have that general everyone looks the same + - some makeup/pointy hears/accessories. I guess this has a broader appeal?? Especially since most people are more interested in SEX/ROMANCES than anything else. Easier to identify oneself with characters that look similar to us. aka, easy to mastxxxxxx too smile Sex sells better than pure fantasy.
Again big YEY for Pathfinder: WoTr for including quite unique fantasy playable companions and portraits :))
My personal opinion: in your inventory screen NOTHING, not even top of the line 3D rendered CGI, tops a kick ass fantasy art portrait! Having both options would of been so great for BG3...adds 1000%+ atmosphere and RP.
[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]
[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]
I don't think BG3 so far from what I have seen is high age rating. There exist already one mod that makes Shadow hearth slightly more attractive, but it is a minor thing. In Skyrim I used a mod that is lets say eh will not say, but you can guess a major thing. I agree Gale looks awful for being an Elf. It would make more sense he would be human race. I am not interested in Gale looks however I guess some women find him handsome. You do not need to remove Gale but if they would change his race to human that would make sense. By the way CELEBRITY on YouTube AsmonGold reminds slightly in looks of Gale. I am not his super fan (I have nothing against him and I like a minority of his youtube videos) and not romantically interested in men though I find his youtube videos interesting when he plays rarely Dungeon Dragons pen and paper or talk about upcoming HYPED big budget super MMO Ashes of Creation full release far in future like BG3 or later then BG3 full release.
Posted By: fylimar Re: Elves are not Elven - 05/08/21 12:10 PM
Ehm... Gale ist a human. So there ist no 'if they would make him human'. He is as human as it gets.
Posted By: Terminator2020 Re: Elves are not Elven - 05/08/21 02:31 PM
Originally Posted by fylimar
Ehm... Gale ist a human. So there ist no 'if they would make him human'. He is as human as it gets.
I have not had many EA runs with Gale. I did not notice he was Elf. However other people on forums have told me Gale is Elf. It seems we can not agree on this. He has his beard and freaking much hair perhaps his pointy ears are hidden. Must I start EA again sigh. Seems we can trust noone except our self. Hahaa conspiracy theory Larian changed Gale race with a patch from Elf or HalfElf to Human. Fylimar I believe you. Perhaps some troll told me Gale is not human on forums. What then stop complaining about Gale looks. We have all or favorites and dislikes. Someone said he dislikes Lazael. I like Lazael. I do not like the Vampire thief. I am very happy Thief is nerfed in Patch 5. You need now high strength to push enemies and no longer does backstabbing give advantage. Excellent Thief is not some S tier class in DnD 5th edition.
Posted By: fallenj Re: Elves are not Elven - 05/08/21 02:49 PM
Originally Posted by mr_planescapist
Seems like nowadays only fantasy characters that can be be easily <cosplayed> are designed and inserted into games. So you have that general everyone looks the same + - some makeup/pointy hears/accessories. I guess this has a broader appeal?? Especially since most people are more interested in SEX/ROMANCES than anything else. Easier to identify oneself with characters that look similar to us. aka, easy to mastxxxxxx too smile Sex sells better than pure fantasy.
Again big YEY for Pathfinder: WoTr for including quite unique fantasy playable companions and portraits :))
My personal opinion: in your inventory screen NOTHING, not even top of the line 3D rendered CGI, tops a kick ass fantasy art portrait! Having both options would of been so great for BG3...adds 1000%+ atmosphere and RP.
[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]
[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]

Imagine so, presuming it would be easier to setup the models/bones and such and cut down time making the game if all the races are shaped the same.
Posted By: Terminator2020 Re: Elves are not Elven - 05/08/21 03:23 PM
Now I remember. Gale is human.

It is the DRUID that can can help in fights vs Goblins the NPC Druid that is in Goblin place. He looks like the worst ELF I have seen! He has lots of beard with broad face and very muscular like a bodybuilder and wide shoulders and he is an ELF! That is outrageous!
Posted By: spacehamster95 Re: Elves are not Elven - 05/08/21 03:38 PM
Halsin has no beard. He is tall and beefy, yes, but no beard whatsoever. I love him, though, and so do many other people. I doubt they will change his design, he is incredibly popular with the fan base.

Edit: You guys mentioned Tolkien as the ultimate authority on elves. His elves did have beards sometimes. Círdan the Shipwright had a beard at the end of the Third Age. But, according to Forgotten Realms lore, elves have no facial or body hair.
Posted By: fallenj Re: Elves are not Elven - 05/08/21 04:11 PM
Originally Posted by Terminator2020
Now I remember. Gale is human.

It is the DRUID that can can help in fights vs Goblins the NPC Druid that is in Goblin place. He looks like the worst ELF I have seen! He has lots of beard with broad face and very muscular like a bodybuilder and wide shoulders and he is an ELF! That is outrageous!
Mentioned this earlier, he would be considered a wild elf in FR lore. They are more fit than wood elves, its legit.
Posted By: Ragitsu Re: Elves are not Elven - 05/08/21 08:43 PM
Originally Posted by spacehamster95
Edit: You guys mentioned Tolkien as the ultimate authority on elves. His elves did have beards sometimes. Círdan the Shipwright had a beard at the end of the Third Age. But, according to Forgotten Realms lore, elves have no facial or body hair.

That's a trait universal to D&D's elves in general (Forgotten Realms and otherwise).

When a big fuss is made over "elves" with facial hair, they turn out to be Half-Elves. Tanis of Dragonlance is a famous example ->

[Linked Image from i.pinimg.com]

[Linked Image from dragonlancereadingorder.com]

^ Note the slightly pronounced eyes.
I wonder if Arilyn Moonblade would be considered a full Elf by modern standards grin.

[Linked Image from i.pinimg.com]

[Linked Image from 13thhr.files.wordpress.com]
Originally Posted by Ragitsu
I wonder if Arilyn Moonblade would be considered a full Elf by modern standards grin.

[Linked Image from i.pinimg.com]

[Linked Image from 13thhr.files.wordpress.com]
I have read the books of Arilyn Moonblade a long time ago and they were average/barely good in my taste.
Well and on topic on her picture found it slightly to human like for being Elf. She is fairly attractive though and I did not mean she is an ugly woman.

Well and should not majority of Elves not be tall and like models looking beautiful? Tessa Violet CELEBRITY music STAR and she is an ex model not so much into her music though I do like some of the tunes. but I like very much the music video of:
Tessa Violet - I Like (the idea of) You (Official Music Video) you can search on that on youtube. No owerweight tall women and models dancing (at least the most beautiful women in that videos look like models and are tall) in that video and she the singer is ex Model. Many Elves should be tall and beautiful... and Elves typically do not have any overweight and no fat Elves should exist!

R.A. Salvatore The Drow books the first 9 book I like them more or less and then it gets boring and repetive for most part have not read even near all R.A.A Salvatore books. I got so tired of those heroes being undefeatable in the long run. In addition to the Drow I liked the Assasin Artemis Entreri as a villain.

There is also Cleric quintet. Nowadays I do not read books instead see TV series, movies and play games.
No, elves are generally shorter than most humans, in Forgotten Realms Lore at least (drows being the shortest).

About being stout, every Player character type is toned and lithe, so I see no reason for that comment (btw, all our current Player Character choices were inspired by and sculpted from the faces of real life models).

Honestly, I wish rpgs would present a bit more variety in body types. I really loved that about Obsidian's Tyranny, where you could choose height and body type (I do realize that Tyranny had a much more isometric cartoonish style where it was easier to implement such things).
Originally Posted by spacehamster95
No, elves are generally shorter than most humans, in Forgotten Realms Lore at least (drows being the shortest).

About being stout, every Player character type is toned and lithe, so I see no reason for that comment (btw, all our current Player Character choices were inspired by and sculpted from the faces of real life models).

Honestly, I wish rpgs would present a bit more variety in body types. I really loved that about Obsidian's Tyranny, where you could choose height and body type (I do realize that Tyranny had a much more isometric cartoonish style where it was easier to implement such things).
I do not agree with you on humans being taller. Humans might be broader more muscular and wide. bodybuilders etc. I go to gym myself and my record on benkpress is 125 kg well though nowadays I prefer fitness and smaller weights many times instread of try one time record lift. I am not ta tall person myself and rather average and regarding my height if I want the "tall" feeling I need to go to Thailand there some locals are short.

Tolkien's Elves are of a similar size to Men. However, they tend to be slimmer, and probably slightly taller on average.

Of course there are shorter Elves. I have mentioned BELLE DELPHINE CELEBRITY dressed as an Elf more then once now and she is absolutely not a tall person.

Regarding of Elves there are kind different of size in height as in humans. There are no fey kind of Elves though extreeme short.
Well and no there should not be any kind of fat Elves.
If you look at any Forgotten Realms material, elves are shorter and lighter than humans. They are not tall. Tolkien's elves on the other hand, they were taller than humans in average (and generally physically more powerful).

Originally Posted by Terminator2020
Of course there are shorter Elves. I have mentioned BELLE DELPHINE CELEBRITY dressed as an Elf more then once now and she is absolutely not a tall person.

I don't even begin to know how should I respond to this comment. The fact that an adult content creator once dressed up as an elf means that elves can be short in the Forgotten Realms?
Originally Posted by Terminator2020
Tolkien's Elves are ...
Completely irellevant, bcs that is different world, different setting, with different rules ... :-/

Originally Posted by Terminator2020
Well and no there should not be any kind of fat Elves.
This is something i allways find fascinating about Elves ...
I mean, i know that usualy there are no fat Elves pictured anywhere, but the main question i have is: Why is that?
- Is that just the fact that elvish lifestyle providing them ballanced enery gain and take, so their are fit and slim ...
- Or are Elves naturaly unable to store excess energy in fat? laugh

And what effect it have for their society?
It kinda makes sence that Dwarfs are geting fat easy ... there is not much food, that can be grown underground, so Dwarves naturaly evolved to store any bit of energy they dont need for futher uses ... that seems quite logical for me.

But what does it mean for Elf? smile
They can starve to death conciderably faster than other races?
They need permanent food suply on long travels?
How will their liver react for "heavy" food?

Shame that so many sources dont think about such details. laugh
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by Terminator2020
Tolkien's Elves are ...
Completely irellevant, bcs that is different world, different setting, with different rules ... :-/

Originally Posted by Terminator2020
Well and no there should not be any kind of fat Elves.
This is something i allways find fascinating about Elves ...
I mean, i know that usualy there are no fat Elves pictured anywhere, but the main question i have is: Why is that?
- Is that just the fact that elvish lifestyle providing them ballanced enery gain and take, so their are fit and slim ...
- Or are Elves naturaly unable to store excess energy in fat? laugh

And what effect it have for their society?
It kinda makes sence that Dwarfs are geting fat easy ... there is not much food, that can be grown underground, so Dwarves naturaly evolved to store any bit of energy they dont need for futher uses ... that seems quite logical for me.

But what does it mean for Elf? smile
They can starve to death conciderably faster than other races?
They need permanent food suply on long travels?
How will their liver react for "heavy" food?

Shame that so many sources dont think about such details. laugh

Somewhere, I read once that DnD elves have generally a better and more efficient metabolism than humans (they eat less and less frequently, excrete less et cetera). That could be an explanation. Though, I have nothing against thicker elves.
Naah I am Tolkien fan. I dont care what you say about irrevelant how Tolkien Elves are sorry that is your opinion. I care about no fat Elves. It is not like I hate fat people in real world. Personally I do not care if fat humans play this game. Let them play the game and enjoy it.

If we meet fat or stocky people example in Baldurs Gate city they can be example Human or Dwarf race.

Hahaa we could have some Obelix strong, but fat human warrior in the game:
Obelix strong, but fat warrior
You missunderstand the point. -_-

You might be as big fan as you wish ...
But different world = different rules.
That is just how things are, no matter how much you like them, they just dont aply here. :-/

If Wizard of the Coast says tomorow, that since now their Elves are all fat and have bear ears on top of their heads ... it will probably piss off every fan of the world, but that will be how WotC Elves will lookalike since then, and Tolkien and his elves will have nothing to do with it.
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
You missunderstand the point. -_-

You might be as big fan as you wish ...
But different world = different rules.
That is just how things are, no matter how much you like them, they just dont aply here. :-/

If Wizard of the Coast says tomorow, that since now their Elves are all fat and have bear ears on top of their heads ... it will probably piss off every fan of the world, but that will be how WotC Elves will lookalike since then, and Tolkien and his elves will have nothing to do with it.
You underestimate that people can choose to ignore Wizard of the Coast.

I am pretty sure Wizard of The Coast will not do such a thing although they have in time made rarely some minor annoying changes to Magic The Gathering and no will no tell what changes and Magic The Gathering is offtopic.

If they want to piss of many they can do that. I would never play pen and paper DnD with a GM that has notion his world will have fat and bearded Elves.

At that point I would simply think fuck Wizard of the Coast if they would do that. There are also those who were so annoyed with Dnd 4th edition so they went playing Pathfinder which basically is it own rules world. While DnD 5th edition has come this hatred toward Dnd 4th edtion is so strong in my country that Pathfinder is more played in paper and pen sessions then DnD 5th edition from what I have noted from big roleplay conventions. Dnd 5th edition is though more popular then DnD 4th Edition.

Here are most popular Dnd editions in my country currently:
1. Pathfinder
2. DnD 5th edition.
3. DnD 3.5 but this is low popularity nowadays Pathfinder and Dnd 5th mostly played.
4. I am not sure if AD (Dnd second edition) or DnD 4th edition is more popular?

Please not that was my country. Could be DnD 5th is more popular then Pathfinder in many other countries. I am not ANTI DnD 5th edition, but DnD 4th edtion I consider the worst Dnd edition released. Dnd 5th edition made combat faster and more simple and back to dice rolling as old DnD versions.

I could say yes to play pen and paper DnD 5th edition or Pathfinder.

Dungeons and Dragons Dark Alliance I do not want to play that. They could release 50 DnD PC games or have 50 Dnd Pen and Paper sessions with FAT and bearded Elves and I am not going to play those games. If a GM would suddenly say I will from now on have fat and bearded Elves I would say fine I quit immediately!
People can ...
But Larian cannot, especialy since Wizards still own all rights to this franchise. laugh

Therefore, people are as irellevant as Tolkien around here. wink
I am super angry and sorry if this would happen:
"If Wizard of the Coast says tomorow, that since now their Elves are all fat and have bear ears on top of their heads "

If Larian would do that then I do not play BG3. The chance of this is not even 1% that would happen before BG3 is done.

I did buy Skyrim. Did I play the Skyrim much? No I did not like it. I played it less then 10 hours.

I will not play a DnD game or BG3 if Elves are all fat and have bear ears on top of their heads.
That is not all I would then say to my brother and friend do not buy BG3 because they would to want to play this game with me. My brother and one friend of my do not want to pay BG3 before it is done like BG3 1.0. That is not all. I am slightly rich or say good economy and well my brother has much money, but my poor friend do not have much money at all but when I told him I can MAYBE (if I like BG3 but I tell him I dont like it then no) pay half of what BG3 cost if I like BG3 game when it is done he said sure I can play then if I pay and want to play BG3 with him. He my friend unlike me or my brother really does not have much money usually he only play old games or free games. If a game cost more then 30 euro it is to much for my friend. Well and I have lots of money or enough money so in this rare case I could pay 50% say 30 euro that is if I like BG3 of my poor friends cost to buy BG3. My brother listens to me I guess he will not buy BG3 if I say I do not like it. Same brother that went with me to Cinema and see all Tolkien Lord movies hardcore Tolkien fan as me. This poor friend of my and my brother we have also played other games together and what I say matters a lot to them and I rarely want to play games with them nowadays so they really look forward to play with me BG3.
This also due to single player games and not always same taste my brother plays Witcher 3 single player game and I am not interested in DOTA2 that my brother plays. I can not play Solasta with my brother since it is single player game.

This nickname of mine comes from when I played Unreal Tournament 2004 with my brother and my poor friend my nickname was Terminator. I am fan of the first 2 Terminator movies. Well so we have a long history of playing games together.

It is rare I give my poor friend presents. Well and when I say poor I did not mean he is poor so he starve of food however poor compared to me:

I bought example Battlefield 3 to my poor friend for 10 euro and then we played it together. Well and with this poor friend I played Neverwinter MMO Dungeons Dragons 4th edition over a year until I quit it got bored and when I quit my friend said he does not want to play it if I do not play it and he quit it shortly after I stopped playing Neverwinter MMO which you could play for totally free which we did.

While World of Warcraft MMO which is very expensive game and subfee I played over 3 years and my brother stopped playing it after 1 year but not due to it was to expensive game for my brother he though it was to much TIME sink and grind. Of course my poor friend never played expensive WOW MMO I did not even ask him to do that.

I am landlord and have n tenants and my poor friend lives on rent and has no property that he owns no house, no apartment, no summer cottage nothing. I am not rich though in my own eyes and at my poors friends birthday was one person clearly more rich then me a multimillonaire.
Originally Posted by spacehamster95
Honestly, I wish rpgs would present a bit more variety in body types. I really loved that about Obsidian's Tyranny, where you could choose height and body type (I do realize that Tyranny had a much more isometric cartoonish style where it was easier to implement such things).

That's a reasonable compromise for players that want to introduce human blood somewhere in an otherwise ordinary elf's ancestry.
Originally Posted by Terminator2020
If Larian would do that then I do not play BG3.
And do you know what effect will that have? smile
None. wink

Nobody would care, nothing would happen ... one (or three w/e) less person is irellevant, since game allready sold millions of copies. wink

Rest of your post is as usualy huge offtopic. :-/

Originally Posted by Terminator2020
The chance of this is not even 1% that would happen before BG3 is done.
That was not the point ... (again)
It was *example* (i recomend googling) ... that was created just to explain why any elves from any other sources than DnD are not relevant to this game, to this setting, therefore to this topic. Nothing more.
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by Terminator2020
If Larian would do that then I do not play BG3.
And do you know what effect will that have? smile
None. wink

Nobody would care, nothing would happen ... one (or three w/e) less person is irellevant, since game allready sold millions of copies. wink

Rest of your post is as usualy huge offtopic. :-/

Originally Posted by Terminator2020
The chance of this is not even 1% that would happen before BG3 is done.
That was not the point ... (again)
It was *example* (i recomend googling) ... that was created just to explain why any elves from any other sources than DnD are not relevant to this game, to this setting, therefore to this topic. Nothing more.
You dont understand. I am not alone in this Larian would shoot in their own foot and possible hundred thousands or more would not buy BG3. I honestly feel you begin trolling this thread could you please stop that?

Well so what BG3 has sold over a million on Steam already. Well and many on Gog.com.
Right so Larian would want to piss of many of those buyers doing your wish of fat and bearded Elves? I do not think so it lies in Larian interest and word would spread out of pissed of consumers cool! You seem to believe everybody would be happy since DOS2 was a good game? I do not deny DOS2 was a good game no attack on that. However if you want to piss of Tolkien and DnD fans and many fans of traditonal Elves with creating fat and bearded Elves that would piss of a huge amount of consumers mad!
Posted By: Ragitsu Re: Elves are not Elven - 07/08/21 05:21 AM
Originally Posted by Chief_Jericho
I'm no AD&D aficionado but I read they're meant to be stunningly beautiful. I looked though those official art work pics and they look closer to one of the Greys. I don't know about you but that's not my idea of beauty.

The Greys are short (dwarf height or lower), grey-skinned (duh), completely hairless, feature large/disproportionately larger heads, have dead black eyes, et cetera. I'm not seeing a connection.

Anyhow, beauty is in the eye of the...beauty is subjective wink. Nevertheless, quite a few physical traits common to "typical" elves have been and still are considered attractive relative to humanity.

Large eyes? Check. "Cow eyes" have been desirable since at least the time of Hera.
Almond eyes? Check.
Chiseled facial features? Check.
Willowy build? Check.
Occasionally androgynous? Check.

The ears are a bit of anomaly when placed alongside a "normal" human, granted, but I'm sure there's enough desire for them out there.

Originally Posted by Chief_Jericho
I for one am glad Larian's reigned in on the arms race of ear length but in the last decade or so they've somehow ended up with ears longer than your arms.

The two stark examples I can think of are from the Warcraft games and the Record of Lodoss War anime. I don't think D&D's elves have ever possessed ears that lengthy or, if they ever did, they were definitely outliers.
Posted By: mr_planescapist Re: Elves are not Elven - 07/08/21 06:13 AM
2021 Earth Human values/issues sucking all the Fantasy/Scifi out of our games and movies.
Larian/Wotc should just make races look however everyone wants and be done with it. Same for classes.
Posted By: spacehamster95 Re: Elves are not Elven - 07/08/21 06:18 AM
Originally Posted by mr_planescapist
2021 Earth Human values/issues sucking all the Fantasy/Scifi out of our games and movies.

Yeah god save us from Fantasy/Scifi works of art that do social commentary. What were they even thinking?

Irony aside, both Scifi and Fantasy were always centred around contemporary social issues, from the very beginning of the genres. There is no such thing as pure escapism...
Posted By: mr_planescapist Re: Elves are not Elven - 07/08/21 06:29 AM
Originally Posted by spacehamster95
Originally Posted by mr_planescapist
2021 Earth Human values/issues sucking all the Fantasy/Scifi out of our games and movies.

Yeah god save us from Fantasy/Scifi works of art that do social commentary. What were they even thinking?

Irony aside, both Scifi and Fantasy were always centred about contemporary social issues, from the very beginning of the genres. There is no such thing as pure escapism...

Yea just like Star trek Picard and Discovery versus TNG series. Works of art.
There is a HUGE difference between IN YOU FACE SWALLOW THAT social commentary, and WELL SCTRUCTURED SUPBTAL social commentary.
Posted By: spacehamster95 Re: Elves are not Elven - 07/08/21 06:33 AM
Obviously, I am talking about Fantasy/Scifi authors, but yeah sure you can include popculture if you'd like. Though, you mentioned movies and games in your post and that's what I was referring to.
Posted By: mr_planescapist Re: Elves are not Elven - 07/08/21 06:35 AM
Originally Posted by spacehamster95
Obviously, I am talking about Fantasy/Scifi authors, but yeah sure you can include popculture if you'd like. Though, you mentioned movies and games in your post and that's what I was referring to.

For me anyways, there is a HUGE difference between IN YOU FACE SWALLOW THAT social commentary, and WELL STRUCTURED SUBTLE social commentary.
Posted By: spacehamster95 Re: Elves are not Elven - 07/08/21 06:41 AM
Originally Posted by mr_planescapist
Originally Posted by spacehamster95
Obviously, I am talking about Fantasy/Scifi authors, but yeah sure you can include popculture if you'd like. Though, you mentioned movies and games in your post and that's what I was referring to.

For me anyways, there is a HUGE difference between IN YOU FACE SWALLOW THAT social commentary, and WELL STRUCTURED SUBTLE social commentary.

What is in your face? too loud for you?

For me, I can explain what is loud and quiet commentary in fantasy:
For instance, the violent white supremacy of the Conan the Barbarian novels is very blatant, I can see that (Robert Ervin Howard was famously white supremacist, even by the contemporary southern standards), on the other hand, the racist ideas of Tolkien's are much more subtle and harder to confront (creating the orcs after the mongols, evoking that old European fear of a mongol invasion).

What is too loud or subtle for you?
Posted By: Etruscan Re: Elves are not Elven - 07/08/21 06:58 AM
Originally Posted by spacehamster95
For me, I can explain what is loud and quiet commentary in fantasy:
For instance, the violent white supremacy of the Conan the Barbarian novels is very blatant, I can see that (Robert Ervin Howard was famously white supremacist, even by the contemporary southern standards), on the other hand, the racist ideas of Tolkien's are much more subtle and harder to confront (creating the orcs after the mongols, evoking that old European fear of a mongol invasion).

I know nothing about the Conan novels but I'm pretty sure Tolkien's Orcs were originally Elves, captured and corrupted over time (so not sure how they are supposed to mirror the Mongols if they are simply corrupted versions of the 'pure' ones). Do you have a source that they were based on Mongols? I have never read that before.

I read an article recently stating that Frodo and Sam were in a closet homosexual relationship in the novels. Our contemporary cultural goggles, I think, often skew our vision as to what was intended...and obviously in many cases, shine a new light on them.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Elves are not Elven - 07/08/21 07:14 AM
Originally Posted by Terminator2020
I honestly feel you begin trolling this thread could you please stop that?
Well, you started it. laugh
You end, i end. :P

Originally Posted by Terminator2020
Right so Larian would want to piss of many of those buyers doing your wish of fat and bearded Elves?
Lets play a game ... i call it search for differences:

"i wish" vs. "here is and example"
"larian would do" vs. "this is reason why other settings is irellevant in our topic"

When you find differences, we can move to harder level. smile
Posted By: spacehamster95 Re: Elves are not Elven - 07/08/21 07:22 AM
Originally Posted by Etruscan
Originally Posted by spacehamster95
For me, I can explain what is loud and quiet commentary in fantasy:
For instance, the violent white supremacy of the Conan the Barbarian novels is very blatant, I can see that (Robert Ervin Howard was famously white supremacist, even by the contemporary southern standards), on the other hand, the racist ideas of Tolkien's are much more subtle and harder to confront (creating the orcs after the mongols, evoking that old European fear of a mongol invasion).

I know nothing about the Conan novels but I'm pretty sure Tolkien's Orcs were originally Elves, captured and corrupted over time (so not sure how they are supposed to mirror the Mongols if they are simply corrupted versions of the 'pure' ones). Do you have a source that they were based on Mongols? I have never read that before.

I read an article recently stating that Frodo and Sam were in a closet homosexual relationship in the novels. Our contemporary cultural goggles, I think, often skew our vision as to what was intended...and obviously in many cases, shine a new light on them.

Lorewise, you are perfectly right. Orcs were created after Melkor captured, tortured and corrupted some of the earliest elves.

But, I am talking about meta-literary stuff. This is a very common criticism (found in most scholarly analysis of his) that is leveled against Tolkien's body of work, that his concept and depiction of the orcs were heavily influenced by the medieval descriptions of the mongols by European chronicles. So Tolkien, as an English man, wrote orcs as these parodies of Asian people who are invading the white space (Middle Earth).

Of course, I am not saying that Tolkien was an evil man and his work is awful for this. He had issues, sure. But, on a more positive note, he was also a passionate environmentalist and his work is also permeated with that.

On the note of Sam and Frodo, imo they are more of a reflection of Tolkien's experience in the Great War with his comrades in battle. Sam and Frodo mirror a very old literary tradition called the Love of the Heroes (like Gilgames and Enkidnu, Achilleus and Patroclus, David and Jonathan, et cetera), battle buddies with an overwhelming level of devotion to each other. Reading this as erotic is not a contemporary thing however, the entire Antiquity read the Illiad as a love stoy.

So yeah, it is not a stretch to read Sam and Frodo as more than friends. I mean, after Sam's children grew up, he did leave them and Middle Earth behind to find and reunite with Frodo.

"Don’t urge me to leave you or to turn back from you. Where you go I will go, and where you stay I will stay." (Book of Ruth)

Imo, that is love, whether erotic or not that can be debated, but it is a powerful love.
Posted By: Terminator2020 Re: Elves are not Elven - 07/08/21 08:38 AM
Originally Posted by Ragitsu
Originally Posted by Chief_Jericho
I'm no AD&D aficionado but I read they're meant to be stunningly beautiful. I looked though those official art work pics and they look closer to one of the Greys. I don't know about you but that's not my idea of beauty.

The Greys are short (dwarf height or lower), grey-skinned (duh), completely hairless, feature large/disproportionately larger heads, have dead black eyes, et cetera. I'm not seeing a connection.

Anyhow, beauty is in the eye of the...beauty is subjective wink. Nevertheless, quite a few physical traits common to "typical" elves have been and still are considered attractive relative to humanity.

Large eyes? Check. "Cow eyes" have been desirable since at least the time of Hera.
Almond eyes? Check.
Chiseled facial features? Check.
Willowy build? Check.
Occasionally androgynous? Check.

The ears are a bit of anomaly when placed alongside a "normal" human, granted, but I'm sure there's enough desire for them out there.

Originally Posted by Chief_Jericho
I for one am glad Larian's reigned in on the arms race of ear length but in the last decade or so they've somehow ended up with ears longer than your arms.


The two stark examples I can think of are from the Warcraft games and the Record of Lodoss War anime. I don't think D&D's elves have ever possessed ears that lengthy or, if they ever did, they were definitely outliers.
Well here is some sense disucussion and not totally off the mark....

I would say World of Warcraft MMO affected this as being one game with long Elf ear length. I played it for more then 3 years until I quit. In WOW MMO the Elf ears were big and long, but that I considered more WOW artistic art and then it was made clear so nobody would mistake them for not being other races. There were still two different races of them example Blood Elves on the Horde side and other Elf race on Alliance side.

Well and WOW MMO did it not completely ruin it at nobody did they include fat or bearded Elves.
To say this had no impact would be wrong at peak of its glory whan I played WOW MMO during Wrath of Lichking as newest expansion WOW MMO had more then 12 million active sub fee payers.

Oh and dont say DnD has never tried to taked elements from WOW MMO. They started doing that is DnD 4th edition. Example spell Hunters Mark for Rangeer is copied from WOW MMO and still remains in Dnd 5th edition though I have nothing against this. WOW MMO in return borrowed much fantasy ideas from Tolkien and Dungeons Dragons.
Posted By: fylimar Re: Elves are not Elven - 07/08/21 08:50 AM
Terminator: why are you keep going back to fat and bearded elves? Ragnarök used it as an examples. If fat and bearded triggers you, then take other examples. Maybe blue hair and brown skin. The topic was, that Tolkien elves and dnd elves are mit necessearily the same thing.
Just because you like Tolkien elves doesn't mean, that WotC must cater to that. They have their own mythology and that was all, people tried to explain to you.
Btw there are fat elves in DnD. There was a fat elf npc in one campaign.
Posted By: Terminator2020 Re: Elves are not Elven - 07/08/21 08:53 AM
Originally Posted by fylimar
Terminator: why are you keep going back to fat and bearded elves? Ragnarök used it as an examples. If fat and bearded triggers you, then take other examples. Maybe blue hair and brown skin. The topic was, that Tolkien elves and dnd elves are mit necessearily the same thing.
Just because you like Tolkien elves doesn't mean, that WotC must cater to that. They have their own mythology and that was all, people tried to explain to you.
Btw there are fat elves in DnD. There was a fat elf npc in one campaign.
A freak Elf then and not normal. In real world some humans are extreemly long humans and some of them have unfortunately have if I undestood correctly a disease that can be deadly many times and they will not reach pension age likely. Example a CANCER. Research has proven if you are very tall human in real world indeed specially etreeme tall then chance for CANCER is higher. I am not talking about Belgian national football goalkeeper that is slightly over 2 meters tall. No I am talking about the most tallest humans on earth and Belgium football goalkeeper is short compared to them.
Posted By: fylimar Re: Elves are not Elven - 07/08/21 09:03 AM
Originally Posted by Terminator2020
Originally Posted by fylimar
Terminator: why are you keep going back to fat and bearded elves? Ragnarök used it as an examples. If fat and bearded triggers you, then take other examples. Maybe blue hair and brown skin. The topic was, that Tolkien elves and dnd elves are mit necessearily the same thing.
Just because you like Tolkien elves doesn't mean, that WotC must cater to that. They have their own mythology and that was all, people tried to explain to you.
Btw there are fat elves in DnD. There was a fat elf npc in one campaign.
A freak Elf then and not normal. In real world some humans are extreemly long humans and some of them have unfortunately have if I undestood correctly a disease that can be deadly many times and they will not reach pension age likely. Example a CANCER. Research has proven if you are very tall indeed specially etreeme tall then chance for CANCER is higher.
Again-the point, you keep missing it. I'm not bothering to explain anymore. I tried to be helpful, but that seem to be a wasted efford.
Posted By: Terminator2020 Re: Elves are not Elven - 07/08/21 09:09 AM
Originally Posted by fylimar
u keep missing it. I'm not bothering to explain anymore. I tried to be helpful, but that seem to be a wasted efford.
I have not been annoyed by that Drow have different skin color then in Tolkien world and they still are handsome or beautiful in general. I accepted it from R.A Salvatore books. Well and the Elves in WOW MMO did not annoy me despite having very big ears well not to mention Blood Elves in WOW Horde side are kind of red color or in that direction the name Blood kind of gives hint of red color. The Elf race on Alliance look more like typical Tolkien Elves if you forget the big ears. Well and WOW Elves were still enough beautiful though a bit excentric sometimes with WOW artistic style affecting at least armor looks and bigger ears then Tolkien Elves have.

Guess I want Elves to be beautiful and enough different from humans and Tolkien Elves are beautiful. Well and in Tolkien workd there is more then one Elf race. There are High Elves example Galadriel Elf Queen and Legolas are High Elf race most powerful Elf race. However the Elf in Hobbit movie the beutiful Woman Elf that healed (not in Hobbit books with angered many Hobibit fans but whatever) was not High Elf race despite being Elf. This other Elf race is less supernatural then High Elf race and more close to human races then High Elf race.
Posted By: fylimar Re: Elves are not Elven - 07/08/21 09:40 AM
Originally Posted by Terminator2020
Originally Posted by fylimar
u keep missing it. I'm not bothering to explain anymore. I tried to be helpful, but that seem to be a wasted efford.
I have not been annoyed by that Drow have different skin color then in Tolkien world and they still are handsome or beautiful in general. I accepted it from R.A Salvatore books. Well and the Elves in WOW MMO did not annoy me despite having very big ears well not to mention Blood Elves in WOW Horde side are kind of red color or in that direction the name Blood kind of gives hint of red color. The Elf race on Alliance look more like typical Tolkien Elves if you forget the big ears. Well and WOW Elves were still enough beautiful though a bit excentric sometimes with WOW artistic style affecting at least armor looks and bigger ears then Tolkien Elves have.

Guess I want Elves to be beautiful and enough different from humans and Tolkien Elves are beautiful.

Yeah, but what you want doesn't really matter, it counts, what WotC want to do with their elves. Beides, beauty is highly subjective. To me, the WoW elves look highly ridiculous. I can't take that serious. And I really don't want my elves to look like a cheap underage youtube erotic star.
I like for elves to look different from humans, a bit alien maybe.
Posted By: Terminator2020 Re: Elves are not Elven - 07/08/21 09:45 AM
Originally Posted by fylimar
Originally Posted by Terminator2020
Originally Posted by fylimar
u keep missing it. I'm not bothering to explain anymore. I tried to be helpful, but that seem to be a wasted efford.
I have not been annoyed by that Drow have different skin color then in Tolkien world and they still are handsome or beautiful in general. I accepted it from R.A Salvatore books. Well and the Elves in WOW MMO did not annoy me despite having very big ears well not to mention Blood Elves in WOW Horde side are kind of red color or in that direction the name Blood kind of gives hint of red color. The Elf race on Alliance look more like typical Tolkien Elves if you forget the big ears. Well and WOW Elves were still enough beautiful though a bit excentric sometimes with WOW artistic style affecting at least armor looks and bigger ears then Tolkien Elves have.

Guess I want Elves to be beautiful and enough different from humans and Tolkien Elves are beautiful.

Yeah, but what you want doesn't really matter, it counts, what WotC want to do with their elves. Beides, beauty is highly subjective. To me, the WoW elves look highly ridiculous. I can't take that serious. And I really don't want my elves to look like a cheap underage youtube erotic star.
I like for elves to look different from humans, a bit alien maybe.
Well then go play Guild Wars 2 this game is not for you if you want alien looking Elves. They adopted in Guild Wars 2 Elves as some plant race and I never played it or want to play Guild Wars 2 when found out that.

Enlightning we have completely different taste.

On Erotic side I am sure some mods will fix this for me. Already we have one mod that affect ShadowHeart looks, but not nearly as much as I want so have not bothered to use that mod. In Skyrim despite playing it very little I used a mod that made huge changes indeed and not some minor things that the BG3 current mod available for ShadowHeart does. I bought Skyrim very cheaply long time after release and by then was available lots of mods to Skyrim.
Posted By: fylimar Re: Elves are not Elven - 07/08/21 09:52 AM
Originally Posted by Terminator2020
Originally Posted by fylimar
Originally Posted by Terminator2020
Originally Posted by fylimar
u keep missing it. I'm not bothering to explain anymore. I tried to be helpful, but that seem to be a wasted efford.
I have not been annoyed by that Drow have different skin color then in Tolkien world and they still are handsome or beautiful in general. I accepted it from R.A Salvatore books. Well and the Elves in WOW MMO did not annoy me despite having very big ears well not to mention Blood Elves in WOW Horde side are kind of red color or in that direction the name Blood kind of gives hint of red color. The Elf race on Alliance look more like typical Tolkien Elves if you forget the big ears. Well and WOW Elves were still enough beautiful though a bit excentric sometimes with WOW artistic style affecting at least armor looks and bigger ears then Tolkien Elves have.

Guess I want Elves to be beautiful and enough different from humans and Tolkien Elves are beautiful.

Yeah, but what you want doesn't really matter, it counts, what WotC want to do with their elves. Beides, beauty is highly subjective. To me, the WoW elves look highly ridiculous. I can't take that serious. And I really don't want my elves to look like a cheap underage youtube erotic star.
I like for elves to look different from humans, a bit alien maybe.
Well then go play Guild Wars 2 this game is not for you if you want alien looking Elves. They adopted in Guild Wars 2 Elves as some plant race and I never played it or want to play Guild Wars 2 when found out that.

On Erotic side I am sure some mods will fix this for me. Already we have one mod that affect Shadow Hearth looks, but not nearly as much as I want so have not bothered to use that mod. In Skyrim despite playing it very little I used a mod that made huge changes indeed and not some minor things that the BG3 current mod available for Shadow Hearth does.

Don"t tell me, what I should or should not play, I'm not the one complaining and the characters name ist Shadowheart.
And I really don't want to know about your fetishes, it's creepy
Posted By: Terminator2020 Re: Elves are not Elven - 07/08/21 10:03 AM
Originally Posted by Terminator2020
I have not been annoyed by that Drow have different skin color then in Tolkien world and they still are handsome or beautiful in general. I accepted it from R.A Salvatore books. Well and the Elves in WOW MMO did not annoy me despite having very big ears well not to mention Blood Elves in WOW Horde side are kind of red color or in that direction the name Blood kind of gives hint of red color. The Elf race on Alliance look more like typical Tolkien Elves if you forget the big ears. Well and WOW Elves were still enough beautiful though a bit excentric sometimes with WOW artistic style affecting at least armor looks and bigger ears then Tolkien Elves have.

Guess I want Elves to be beautiful and enough different from humans and Tolkien Elves are beautiful.[/quote]
Originally Posted by Terminator2020
Yeah, but what you want doesn't really matter, it counts, what WotC want to do with their elves. Beides, beauty is highly subjective. To me, the WoW elves look highly ridiculous. I can't take that serious. And I really don't want my elves to look like a cheap underage youtube erotic star.
I like for elves to look different from humans, a bit alien maybe.
Originally Posted by Terminator2020
Well then go play Guild Wars 2 this game is not for you if you want alien looking Elves. They adopted in Guild Wars 2 Elves as some plant race and I never played it or want to play Guild Wars 2 when found out that.

On Erotic side I am sure some mods will fix this for me. Already we have one mod that affect Shadow Hearth looks, but not nearly as much as I want so have not bothered to use that mod. In Skyrim despite playing it very little I used a mod that made huge changes indeed and not some minor things that the BG3 current mod available for Shadow Hearth does.
Originally Posted by fylimar
Don"t tell me, what I should or should not play, I'm not the one complaining and the characters name ist Shadowheart.
And I really don't want to know about your fetishes, it's creepy
I find lots of this none Tolkien Elf ideas creepy and idea of Elves as Alien makes me want to womit.

Shadowheart yes make her more good looking with mods:
Shadowheart
Posted By: fylimar Re: Elves are not Elven - 07/08/21 10:05 AM
I just give up, I really don't want to continue this. Should have knownn better.
Posted By: Terminator2020 Re: Elves are not Elven - 07/08/21 10:08 AM
Originally Posted by fylimar
I just give up, I really don't want to continue this. Should have knownn better.
Ok fine do that and while I could not resist teasing I did not want to insult you or hurt your feelings and I have nothing against you personally despite not having exactly same taste.
For the record I have never said I want to see underage stuff that you mentioned? The last CELEBRITY I mentioned is an ex model STAR singer and by now over 30 years old and all women in that video I told the name of
Tessa Violet - I Like (the idea of) You (Official Music Video)
are clearly adult models and described them as typical tall Elves examples. Well and regarding Belle D. when she started her most nasty stuff by then she was over 18 and currently she is 21 years old. Please never think I want to see any underage nasty stuff thank you. Belle D. is absolutely not a tall person far from it and she has rarely taken pictures as being an Elf so saying I want only tall Elves is not true.

Now more on to topic. Yes the male Elves in BG3 look slightly to Human (well not saying they look awful would still play BG3 if not changed), but please to improve game make them look little more Elvish would be nice as OP post or Tolkien High Elves and not some pretty odd ideas posted here. The women Elves in BG3 look fairly ok, but the default male Elf when I see the face look slightly tiny bit to human for my taste.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Elves are not Elven - 07/08/21 10:44 AM
Originally Posted by fylimar
I just give up, I really don't want to continue this. Should have knownn better.
I can feel your pain ...
You have my sympathies.
Posted By: Terminator2020 Re: Elves are not Elven - 07/08/21 11:03 AM
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by fylimar
I just give up, I really don't want to continue this. Should have knownn better.
I can feel your pain ...
You have my sympathies.
Well and I could recommend Guild Wars 2 to you as well. There are no normal Elves in Guild Wars 2. They are kind of plants that reminds tiny bit of Elves and perfect for you. When I found out that information I lost my interest and decided to never play Guild Wars 2. That Guild Wars 2 race name that reminds slightly of Elves is Sylvari. They are so Alien so Halfelf Human and Sylvari parents is not even biologically possible.
Quote about Sylvari:
"Sylvari are not born. They awaken beneath the Pale Tree with knowledge gleaned in their pre-life Dream. These noble beings travel, seeking adventure and pursuing quests. They struggle to balance curiosity with duty, eagerness with chivalry, and warfare with honor. Magic and mystery entwine to shape the future of this race that has so recently appeared.

— In-game description

The sylvari are a young, inquisitive race of botanical humanoids."

Now more on to topic. Yes the male Elves in BG3 look slightly to Human (well not saying they look awful would still play BG3 if not changed), but please to improve game make them look little more Elvish would be nice as OP post or Tolkien High Elves and not some pretty odd ideas posted here. The women Elves in BG3 look fairly ok, but the default male Elf when I see the face look slightly tiny bit to human for my taste.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Elves are not Elven - 07/08/21 11:39 AM
Originally Posted by Terminator2020
Well and I could recommend Guild Wars 2 to you as well.
That is really nice of you. smile But no ... simmilar to litteraly every other being on this planet, that also never asked you what they should play, i dont care. wink

But let me return the favour and also recommend something to you ... i recomend you to READ WHAT PEOPLE TELLS YOU ... and when you do, read it again ... and just for sure, at least once more ... or rather twice.
Then take deep breath, maybe try short walk ... i usualy take my dog outside, it helps me clear the head ... after return, re-read the important parts once more, then FOCUS on them ... and react on that, instead of just repeating the same stuff over and over.
That is my recomendation. smile

Originally Posted by Terminator2020
They are kind of plants that reminds tiny bit of Elves and perfect for you.
And if you want to be sure that you understand this recomendation i give you ...
Feel free to write me description of "perfect elf for me" to PM ... lets not continue with this stupid offtopic here. smile
Once you hit that, i may start believe that you are able to understand written text. smile

BTW ... "guild wars" elf ... is also from different settings, therefore irellevant to this topic. wink
Aswell as Tolkien elves ...
WoW elves ...
Legend of Zelda elves ...
Thor elves ...
Warhammer elves ...
And thousand of other elves ... so to make it more general, litteraly any "no-DnD" elves. wink
Posted By: Terminator2020 Re: Elves are not Elven - 07/08/21 11:43 AM
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by Terminator2020
Well and I could recommend Guild Wars 2 to you as well.
That is really nice of you. smile But no ... simmilar to litteraly every other being on this planet, that also never asked you what they should play, i dont care. wink

But let me return the favour and also recommend something to you ... i recomend you to READ WHAT PEOPLE TELLS YOU ... and when you do, read it again ... and just for sure, at least once more ... or rather twice.
Then take deep breath, maybe try short walk ... i usualy take my dog outside, it helps me clear the head ... after return, re-read the important parts once more, then FOCUS on them ... and react on that, instead of just repeating the same stuff over and over.
That is my recomendation. smile

Originally Posted by Terminator2020
They are kind of plants that reminds tiny bit of Elves and perfect for you.
And if you want to be sure that you understand this recomendation i give you ...
Feel free to write me description of "perfect elf for me" to PM ... lets not continue with this stupid offtopic here. smile
Once you hit that, i may start believe that you are able to understand written text. smile

BTW ... "guild wars" elf ... is also from different settings, therefore irellevant to this topic. wink
Aswell as Tolkien elves ...
WoW elves ...
Legend of Zelda elves ...
Thor elves ...
Warhammer elves ...
And thousand of other elves ... so to make it more general, litteraly any "no-DnD" elves. wink
Funny I have found people can not read what I write or do not read it. For example age rating for any say nasty adult content I want to see is crystal clear adult only performers.

Well and then when I have first give example of a very short Elf Celebrity and one time mention a video wth tall adult Models with Ex Model singer and compare them to tall Elves peope assume I only like tall Elves? That is not true, but at same time I do not agree on humans being taller then Elves.

Perfect Elves? Tolkien High Elves. I also get OP idea as very good. Unfortuntely then you come with some TROLL ideas to make the BG3 Elves even much less Elf looking then they currently are.

Interesting this anti movement perhaps I should soon start to post on forums that Larian please under no circumstances do no release any more classes and subclasses. That could be compared to what you try do in this thread.
Posted By: fylimar Re: Elves are not Elven - 07/08/21 12:06 PM
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by fylimar
I just give up, I really don't want to continue this. Should have knownn better.
I can feel your pain ...
You have my sympathies.
Yeah, thanks. I'm not trying that again. There are people, who really need some real life, instead of internet adult content.
Posted By: Terminator2020 Re: Elves are not Elven - 07/08/21 01:10 PM
Originally Posted by fylimar
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by fylimar
I just give up, I really don't want to continue this. Should have knownn better.
I can feel your pain ...
You have my sympathies.
Yeah, thanks. I'm not trying that again. There are people, who really need some real life, instead of internet adult content.
Offtopic and with that logic this game should not have any romanceable with companions.

I have never said that wife, husband, girfriend or boyfriend is wrong to have.
Lol with that like of why is there romance in the BG3 play?
You can even find on Internet using google:
Baldur's Gate 3 romance guide: All romanceable companions ..

I can tell you that on average women like more romance then most men do. Men might say they like romance and some do of course
others lie and like the xxx part. There are also some women that do not care anything about romance part, but are ok with adult side of
doing with men.

My brother have wife and 3 very young children and he still like The Witcher 3 and he like very much it has adult content.
I do not have children or wife, but a girlfriend from Tinder.
On topic. I want more more like Elves in OP or Tolkien High Elf.
Posted By: spacehamster95 Re: Elves are not Elven - 07/08/21 02:41 PM
Okay, one last time. I think the point that others have tried to make here is that BG3 takes place in the Forgotten Realms, not in Middle Earth.

Forgotten Realms Elves have their own characteristics that greatly differ from Middle-Earth Elves (like the fact that Forgotten Realms Elves are shorter than humans).

Hence, Middle-Earth lore is irrelevant to this discussion about making the Elves appearing in BG3 more like the lorewise Elves from the Forgotten Realms, who I agree a bit alien (as in inhuman) looking as it was demonstrated by the DnD concept art included on this subforum.

Adult content creators, Elves from other fantasy universes (WoW, Guildwars) are also irrelevant to our discussion.


PS: If you call the Noldo Elves "High Elves", then no Legolas was not a High Elf, as he is a Sindarin, a Wood Elf in Tolkien's lore (Galadriel was a Noldo elf, you can call her High Elf).
Posted By: Terminator2020 Re: Elves are not Elven - 07/08/21 02:57 PM
Originally Posted by spacehamster95
Okay, one last time. I think the point that others have tried to make here is that BG3 takes place in the Forgotten Realms, not in Middle Earth.

Forgotten Realms Elves have their own characteristics that greatly differ from Middle-Earth Elves (like the fact that Forgotten Realms Elves are shorter than humans).

Hence, Middle-Earth lore is irrelevant to this discussion about making the Elves appearing in BG3 more like the lorewise Elves from the Forgotten Realms, who I agree a bit alien (as in inhuman) looking as it was demonstrated by the DnD concept art included on this subforum.

Adult content creators, Elves from other fantasy universes (WoW, Guildwars) are also irrelevant to our discussion.


PS: If you call the Noldo Elves "High Elves", then no Legolas was not a High Elf, as he is a Sindarin, a Wood Elf in Tolkien's lore (Galadriel was a Noldo elf, you can call her High Elf).
Bullshit Elves are not shorter then Humans. In fact Tolkien High Elves are pretty tall only the most tallerst humans can be same height. Generally Elves and Humans same tallness. In regard to muscles and how stocky then Humans on average are more that then Elves.
Posted By: spacehamster95 Re: Elves are not Elven - 07/08/21 03:06 PM
Originally Posted by Terminator2020
Originally Posted by spacehamster95
Okay, one last time. I think the point that others have tried to make here is that BG3 takes place in the Forgotten Realms, not in Middle Earth.

Forgotten Realms Elves have their own characteristics that greatly differ from Middle-Earth Elves (like the fact that Forgotten Realms Elves are shorter than humans).

Hence, Middle-Earth lore is irrelevant to this discussion about making the Elves appearing in BG3 more like the lorewise Elves from the Forgotten Realms, who I agree a bit alien (as in inhuman) looking as it was demonstrated by the DnD concept art included on this subforum.

Adult content creators, Elves from other fantasy universes (WoW, Guildwars) are also irrelevant to our discussion.


PS: If you call the Noldo Elves "High Elves", then no Legolas was not a High Elf, as he is a Sindarin, a Wood Elf in Tolkien's lore (Galadriel was a Noldo elf, you can call her High Elf).
Bullshit Elves are not shorter then Humans. In fact Tolkien High Elves are pretty tall only the most tallerst humans can be same height. Generally Elves and Humans same tallness. In regard to muscles and how stocky then Humans on average are more that then Elves.

"With their unearthly grace and fine features, elves appear hauntingly beautiful to humans and members of many other races. They are slightly shorter than humans on average, ranging from well under 5 feet tall to just over 6 feet. They are more slender than humans, weighing only 100 to 145 pounds. Males and females are about the same height, and males are only marginally heavier than females." (Player's Handbook 5e)

Here is the official material. I have no idea why do you find this so triggering.

Again, Tolkien is still irrelevant to this discussion about Forgotten Realms...
Posted By: Terminator2020 Re: Elves are not Elven - 07/08/21 03:22 PM
Originally Posted by spacehamster95
Originally Posted by Terminator2020
Originally Posted by spacehamster95
Okay, one last time. I think the point that others have tried to make here is that BG3 takes place in the Forgotten Realms, not in Middle Earth.

Forgotten Realms Elves have their own characteristics that greatly differ from Middle-Earth Elves (like the fact that Forgotten Realms Elves are shorter than humans).

Hence, Middle-Earth lore is irrelevant to this discussion about making the Elves appearing in BG3 more like the lorewise Elves from the Forgotten Realms, who I agree a bit alien (as in inhuman) looking as it was demonstrated by the DnD concept art included on this subforum.

Adult content creators, Elves from other fantasy universes (WoW, Guildwars) are also irrelevant to our discussion.


PS: If you call the Noldo Elves "High Elves", then no Legolas was not a High Elf, as he is a Sindarin, a Wood Elf in Tolkien's lore (Galadriel was a Noldo elf, you can call her High Elf).
Bullshit Elves are not shorter then Humans. In fact Tolkien High Elves are pretty tall only the most tallerst humans can be same height. Generally Elves and Humans same tallness. In regard to muscles and how stocky then Humans on average are more that then Elves.

"With their unearthly grace and fine features, elves appear hauntingly beautiful to humans and members of many other races. They are slightly shorter than humans on average, ranging from well under 5 feet tall to just over 6 feet. They are more slender than humans, weighing only 100 to 145 pounds. Males and females are about the same height, and males are only marginally heavier than females." (Player's Handbook 5e)

Here is the official material. I have no idea why do you find this so triggering.

Again, Tolkien is still irrelevant to this discussion about Forgotten Realms...
Naah I follow Tolkien elves. Apparently 5th edition is not good then.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Elves are not Elven - 07/08/21 03:34 PM
Originally Posted by spacehamster95
Again, Tolkien is still irrelevant to this discussion about Forgotten Realms...
I start to feel your pain ..
You have my sympathies. laugh
Posted By: Sozz Re: Elves are not Elven - 07/08/21 03:53 PM
It's true elves are shorter than humans, but the more Tolkien inspired high elves are of similar height.

Races of Faerûn has their official heights and weights. I believe this is 3e (as in not 3.5)

Human, man 4´10” +2d10 120 lb. × (2d4) lb.
Human, woman 4´ 5” +2d10 85 lb. × (2d4) lb.
Elf, drow, female 4'5" +2d6 80 lb. ×(1d6) lb.
Elf, drow, male 4'5" +2d6 85 lb. ×(1d6) lb.
Elf, moon or sun, female 4'5" +2d10 70 lb. ×(2d4) lb.
Elf, moon or sun, male 4'10" +2d10 90 lb. ×(2d4) lb.
Elf, wild or wood, female 4'5" +2d10 80 lb. ×(2d4) lb.
Elf, wild or wood, male 4'10" +2d10 100 lb. ×(2d4) lb.

And this is 5e

Human 4'8" +2d10 110 lb. × (2d4) lb.
Dwarf, hill 3'8" +2d4 115 lb. × (2d6) lb.
Dwarf, mountain 4' +2d4 130 lb. × (2d6) lb.
Elf, high 4'6" +2d10 90 lb. × (1d4) lb.
Elf, wood 4'6" +2d10 100 lb. × (1d4) lb.
Halfling 2'7" +2d4 35 lb. × 1 lb.

All gotten from the intranet
Posted By: fylimar Re: Elves are not Elven - 07/08/21 06:51 PM
Yeah, I Wish, elves would have a smaller bodyform to reflect the official DnD heights.
Posted By: Seraphael Re: Elves are not Elven - 07/08/21 07:06 PM
The height and angle of eyes, Tolkien vs D&D, anomalies of either, does not matter. D&D elves are described as slender and graceful with fine features, with no facial hair and little body hair. Most importantly...this is the universally held stereotype of elves. What most people expect to see and want to roleplay as.

Compared to half-elves, elves (including drows - who really should be made a subrace elf instead of a separate race entirely), and in particular male elves, undeniably lack their fabled slender grace and fine features. We are presented with the opposite in fact; weird symmetries, smallish eyes contrasted by jutting jawlines. Even a "duck face" or two. Apart from the longer ears, the elves definitely look closer to humans (including the human racial variants for elves, but strangely not for half-elves) than half-elves who are much more "fey-like" and delicate.

Is this a big issue? Not relative some other topics. But it obviously matters quite a bit for the many who prefers to play elves (traditionally the second most popular race after humans). Personally speaking, I doubt I would even play an elf given the current roster.
Posted By: Ragitsu Re: Elves are not Elven - 07/08/21 07:48 PM
Re: "fat" elves. This is an interesting enough tangent, so I'll bite.

It has always been implied if not infrequently mentioned that elves have a perfect metabolism and perfect or near-perfect hygiene. I accept that elfs are essentially universally slender because there has never been - at least as far as Dungeons & Dragons is concerned - a consistent depiction of elfs featuring the odd overweight specimen. At best, an elf may be somewhat muscular in the same way a world-class archer, sprinter or swimmer is muscular.
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

I found this picture on another RPG forum. Apparently, that is supposed to be Aerie. Eh? As far as Baldur's Gate is concerned, "redone" art of Aerie and/or Jaheira is nothing new (apparently, some folks find them too elven). However, this piece in particular truly takes the cake; it is an especially pertinent representation of elves being humanized to the point where they're no longer seen as elves.

When it comes to this topic, between consumers and companies...who is the chicken and who is the egg?
All I can say is, elves are supposed to be beautiful. Many "elfish" depictions do not seem beautiful or attractive to me. They seem exotic, but definitely not what I would call attractive.

I think making elves a bit more human makes them prettier. However, at the same time, ot does wind up making them jist look like humans with pointy ears.

The point is, there's a fine line, and it has to be hard to walk it as a game designer. You want people to actually LIKE the character models, so you need to be careful not to male them too elvish or many will think they are unattractive.

I know people out here have mixed feelings about Solasta, and that's not what this comment is about. This comment is about how Solasta did NOT do models well. It was one of the biggest cringes for me with that game. I have a hard time liking my characters because they just don't look particularly awesome to me. Elves look a bit more elfish, maybe, but they just aren't attractive. There's maybe one face I kinda liked and maybe a few hairstyles.

So my point is, it's hard to do models well. BG3 has given us some elf characteristics but not entirely elfish appearances. Although having a bit more elfish appearances might be nice, I'd rather have them err in the direction they chose than Solasta's. Give me models I enjoy. Even if they don't fit certain molds, at least its better than having models I can't hardly stand.
Originally Posted by GM4Him
All I can say is, elves are supposed to be beautiful. Many "elfish" depictions do not seem beautiful or attractive to me. They seem exotic, but definitely not what I would call attractive.

I think making elves a bit more human makes them prettier. However, at the same time, ot does wind up making them jist look like humans with pointy ears.

The point is, there's a fine line, and it has to be hard to walk it as a game designer. You want people to actually LIKE the character models, so you need to be careful not to male them too elvish or many will think they are unattractive.

...

BG3 has given us some elf characteristics but not entirely elfish appearances. Although having a bit more elfish appearances might be nice, I'd rather have them err in the direction they chose than Solasta's. Give me models I enjoy. Even if they don't fit certain molds, at least its better than having models I can't hardly stand.

As I said (several posts back), two fingers - a finger per ear - and *boom*...the elf is gone frown. Personally, I prefer elves that look more elfin than human; if nothing else, that decision helps to decrease the perceived "uncanny valley" effect that is only reinforced by lack of exposure. There absolutely is a happy median between "human" and "edgy gaunt abomination".

Thankfully, it appears as though most people here agree that Half-Elves shouldn't one-up their full-blooded brethren when it comes to fey characteristics.
Posted By: Terminator2020 Re: Elves are not Elven - 08/08/21 12:18 AM
Originally Posted by Sozz
It's true elves are shorter than humans, but the more Tolkien inspired high elves are of similar height.

Races of Faerûn has their official heights and weights. I believe this is 3e (as in not 3.5)

Human, man 4´10” +2d10 120 lb. × (2d4) lb.
Human, woman 4´ 5” +2d10 85 lb. × (2d4) lb.
Elf, drow, female 4'5" +2d6 80 lb. ×(1d6) lb.
Elf, drow, male 4'5" +2d6 85 lb. ×(1d6) lb.
Elf, moon or sun, female 4'5" +2d10 70 lb. ×(2d4) lb.
Elf, moon or sun, male 4'10" +2d10 90 lb. ×(2d4) lb.
Elf, wild or wood, female 4'5" +2d10 80 lb. ×(2d4) lb.
Elf, wild or wood, male 4'10" +2d10 100 lb. ×(2d4) lb.

And this is 5e

Human 4'8" +2d10 110 lb. × (2d4) lb.
Dwarf, hill 3'8" +2d4 115 lb. × (2d6) lb.
Dwarf, mountain 4' +2d4 130 lb. × (2d6) lb.
Elf, high 4'6" +2d10 90 lb. × (1d4) lb.
Elf, wood 4'6" +2d10 100 lb. × (1d4) lb.
Halfling 2'7" +2d4 35 lb. × 1 lb.

All gotten from the intranet
Thank you. Well whatever fine. I care less about how tall they are anyway and yes Humans are not taller then Elves that is crap I will not accept.
Of course there are some invidual exceptions. Example the Barbarian Human Wulfgar was described as very tall in R. A . Salavatore books.
Of course some humans and some Elves are taller then the average height and some are shorter.

I care about this hehee:

Nightsong of Shar mod to make Shadowheart look more attractive.
Well though Nightsong of Shargh this is still the tip of the iceberg what I want.

Oh she is an Elf and this is about how should Elves look, but I guess at the end of the day mods likely can make me happy.
==>
Well so please Elves as OP or say LOTR Elves.

Fine Legolas is not High Elf race I stand corrected and I never said I am ULTRA GURU on Tolkien. However Legolas in LOTR movies is supernatural and overpowerful to KINGDOM COME! I would say Legolas in LOTR movies is their best Elf Archer (at least from what was shown in the movies). You can not compare him to supernatural Gandalf that won a Balrog Demon (or was at least not defeatad by the Demon that Demon fell together with Gandalf) and Gandalf is not Elf race. Well and High Elf Queen Galadriel is very powerful and if she would have taken artifact One Ring I believe she would instead of Sauron become a dark Evil ruler.
Posted By: Ragitsu Re: Elves are not Elven - 08/08/21 01:00 AM
Originally Posted by Sozz
It's true elves are shorter than humans, but the more Tolkien inspired high elves are of similar height.

Races of Faerûn has their official heights and weights. I believe this is 3e (as in not 3.5)

Human, man 4´10” +2d10 120 lb. × (2d4) lb.
Human, woman 4´ 5” +2d10 85 lb. × (2d4) lb.
Elf, drow, female 4'5" +2d6 80 lb. ×(1d6) lb.
Elf, drow, male 4'5" +2d6 85 lb. ×(1d6) lb.
Elf, moon or sun, female 4'5" +2d10 70 lb. ×(2d4) lb.
Elf, moon or sun, male 4'10" +2d10 90 lb. ×(2d4) lb.
Elf, wild or wood, female 4'5" +2d10 80 lb. ×(2d4) lb.
Elf, wild or wood, male 4'10" +2d10 100 lb. ×(2d4) lb.

And this is 5e

Human 4'8" +2d10 110 lb. × (2d4) lb.
Dwarf, hill 3'8" +2d4 115 lb. × (2d6) lb.
Dwarf, mountain 4' +2d4 130 lb. × (2d6) lb.
Elf, high 4'6" +2d10 90 lb. × (1d4) lb.
Elf, wood 4'6" +2d10 100 lb. × (1d4) lb.
Halfling 2'7" +2d4 35 lb. × 1 lb.

All gotten from the intranet

Same deal for AD&D 2e (the pencil-and-paper roleplaying system that forms the basis of most Infinity Engine games).

Quote
Table 10:
Average Height and Weight

Height in Inches [-] Weight in Pounds
Race Base* Modifier Base* Modifier

Dwarf 43/41 +1d10 [-] 130/105 +4d10
Elf 55/50 +1d10 [-] 90/70 +3d10
Gnome 38/36 +1d6 [-] 72/68 +5d4
Half-elf 60/58 +2d6 [-] 110/85 +3d12
Halfling 32/30 +2d8 [-] 52/48 +5d4
Human 60/59 +2d10 [-] 140/100 +6d10

*Females tend to be lighter and shorter than males. Thus, the base numbers for height and weight are divided into male/female values. Note that the modifier still allows for a broad range in each category.

--- --- ---
--- --- ---

Originally Posted by Terminator2020
Humans are not taller then Elves that is crap I will not accept.

Take that up with TSR and Wizards of the Coast. Across all of Dungeons & Dragons, elves tend to be shorter than humans. Once again, you're equating Dungeons and Dragons to The Lord of the Rings when the latter source is just one of many inspirations for the former.
Posted By: Sozz Re: Elves are not Elven - 08/08/21 01:03 AM
Elves will always be taller in my head too, also realize that there are apparently some discrepancies between PHB and the FR around which are 'common' elves and 'high' elves. I'm not a tolkein guru either but I think what you're talking about are the murkwood elves and the Rivendel elves, who are depicted quite differently from each other. I might remember some discussion around them being influenced by the corrupted woods too. Which just says to me, don't be too precious about the details. I'm happy as long as there are Elves that represent that otherworldly (somewhat angelic) ideal. Which is very much a Tolkienism, otherwise all fey would be hobbit-looking sharp toothed goblins.
Posted By: Terminator2020 Re: Elves are not Elven - 08/08/21 01:17 AM
Originally Posted by Ragitsu
Originally Posted by Sozz
It's true elves are shorter than humans, but the more Tolkien inspired high elves are of similar height.

Races of Faerûn has their official heights and weights. I believe this is 3e (as in not 3.5)

Human, man 4´10” +2d10 120 lb. × (2d4) lb.
Human, woman 4´ 5” +2d10 85 lb. × (2d4) lb.
Elf, drow, female 4'5" +2d6 80 lb. ×(1d6) lb.
Elf, drow, male 4'5" +2d6 85 lb. ×(1d6) lb.
Elf, moon or sun, female 4'5" +2d10 70 lb. ×(2d4) lb.
Elf, moon or sun, male 4'10" +2d10 90 lb. ×(2d4) lb.
Elf, wild or wood, female 4'5" +2d10 80 lb. ×(2d4) lb.
Elf, wild or wood, male 4'10" +2d10 100 lb. ×(2d4) lb.

And this is 5e

Human 4'8" +2d10 110 lb. × (2d4) lb.
Dwarf, hill 3'8" +2d4 115 lb. × (2d6) lb.
Dwarf, mountain 4' +2d4 130 lb. × (2d6) lb.
Elf, high 4'6" +2d10 90 lb. × (1d4) lb.
Elf, wood 4'6" +2d10 100 lb. × (1d4) lb.
Halfling 2'7" +2d4 35 lb. × 1 lb.

All gotten from the intranet

Same deal for AD&D 2e (the pencil-and-paper roleplaying system that forms the basis of most Infinity Engine games).

Quote
Table 10:
Average Height and Weight

Height in Inches [-] Weight in Pounds
Race Base* Modifier Base* Modifier

Dwarf 43/41 +1d10 [-] 130/105 +4d10
Elf 55/50 +1d10 [-] 90/70 +3d10
Gnome 38/36 +1d6 [-] 72/68 +5d4
Half-elf 60/58 +2d6 [-] 110/85 +3d12
Halfling 32/30 +2d8 [-] 52/48 +5d4
Human 60/59 +2d10 [-] 140/100 +6d10

*Females tend to be lighter and shorter than males. Thus, the base numbers for height and weight are divided into male/female values. Note that the modifier still allows for a broad range in each category.

--- --- ---
--- --- ---

Originally Posted by Terminator2020
Humans are not taller then Elves that is crap I will not accept.

Take that up with TSR and Wizards of the Coast. Across all of Dungeons & Dragons, elves tend to be shorter than humans. Once again, you're equating Dungeons and Dragons to The Lord of the Rings when the latter source is just one of many inspirations for the former.
I have played many years Dungeons Dragons pen and paper and more then one edition of DnD not to mention computer games:
BG1 , BG2, Icewind Dale games that are AD (or second edition of Dnd).
Neverwinter Nights 1 and 2 DnD 3.0 and Dnd 3.5
Neverwinter MMO while Action combat is more or less adaption of DnD 4th edition.
Pathfinder (the first Pathfinder game that is fully released).
Solasta and BG3 Early Access that both are Dnd 5th edition.

I have had over 10 Gamemasters in Dungeons Dragons Pen and Paper sessions. None of them have told me in any Dnd session that humans are taller then Elves. You can think whatever you want and I do not care if you think Elves are clearly shorter then humans.

I do not generally read books nowadays. When I read Tolkien books it was indeed very long time ago and Hobbit book I read as I was a child. For me today I find movies and TV series more interesting then books.
The Lord of the Rings (Hobbit movies less good then LOTR movies) stand to this day to me as best inspiration of movies with Elves and not simple one inspiration among others.
While I find author R.A.Salvatore very good among DnD Forgotten Realms authors I still find Tolkien as number one fantasy author he kind of started it in a big way.
Posted By: mr_planescapist Re: Elves are not Elven - 08/08/21 01:33 AM
The first depiction of elves were more akin to faeries in myths and folklore. A blending of Germanic mythology and English folklore with Celtic folklore is what inspired JRR Tolkien the <modern> mainstream elf look (giving them a more humanoid look) we all know today and from which was adapted by writers, games etc...Slender, tall and beautiful. Though there are some very few mid 19th century Swedish art that depicts humanoid <elves>.
[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]
Posted By: Terminator2020 Re: Elves are not Elven - 08/08/21 01:36 AM
Originally Posted by mr_planescapist
The first depiction of elves were more akin to faeries in myths and folklore. A blending of Germanic mythology and English folklore with Celtic folklore is what inspired JRR Tolkien the <modern> elf look (giving them a more humanoid look) we all know today and from which was adapted by writers, games etc...Slender, tall and beautiful.
Yes this is true. I have no argument against this. While earlier adaption of Elves was made Tolkien kind of made Elves very popular first with books and then with movies based on his books. Now they are even making a TV series based on Tolkien world, but I can not know if that series will be even good and in worst case that TV series will be a disappointment.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Elves are not Elven - 08/08/21 03:06 AM
Why is this so important?

Human 4'8" +2d10 110 lb. × (2d4) lb.
Dwarf, hill 3'8" +2d4 115 lb. × (2d6) lb.
Dwarf, mountain 4' +2d4 130 lb. × (2d6) lb.
Elf, high 4'6" +2d10 90 lb. × (1d4) lb.
Elf, wood 4'6" +2d10 100 lb. × (1d4) lb.
Halfling 2'7" +2d4 35 lb. × 1 lb.

I could roll snake eyes and a human is what, 4'10". I could roll 20 for an elf and have an elf that is 6'2". According to the rules, you can have some elves taller than some humans and vice versa. Is it really that big of a deal?
Originally Posted by GM4Him
There's maybe one face I kinda liked and maybe a few hairstyles.
That is exactly problem i have with BG-3 models ...

Why do you think that most common tav look like this? laugh
My gues will be its not bcs Larian provided us "many good looking faces" laugh

But im a perfectionist in character creation matter ... that is why i would love to have options to set ears separately from head. frown
Sometimes face is kinda good ... but then i see the ears and im like "oh f**k no way". :-/

Originally Posted by Ragitsu
Personally, I prefer elves that look more elfin than human
As many others in this topic ...
You get my +1
Posted By: Ragitsu Re: Elves are not Elven - 08/08/21 08:10 AM
Originally Posted by Terminator2020
I have had over 10 Gamemasters in Dungeons Dragons Pen and Paper sessions. None of them have told me in any Dnd session that humans are taller then Elves. You can think whatever you want and I do not care if you think Elves are clearly shorter then humans.

Whether you played with ten DMs, one-hundred DMs or one-thousand DMs is immaterial; they probably read the official racial stats and ignored them or - more likely - they skipped them entirely...and that's okay. If you - personally - want to play your D&D elves as statuesque Nordic sylvan supermodels, go right ahead. All I did was point to the canon/core figures of a particular tabletop roleplaying game. Should you wish to assert the contrary until you're blue in the face, you're welcome to do so as well. Odds are, the printed books and PDFs will remain unchanged at the end of the day.

Anyhow, I'll not feed into the Tolkien sermon any further, but I will end my involvement by pointing out a few facts.

Quote
  • Tolkien's elves are immortal; Dungeon & Dragons' elves possess prodigious yet finite lifespans.
  • Tolkien's elves are equally as tall if not taller than Men; Dungeon & Dragons' elves are usually shorter than humans.
  • Tolkien's elves are innately capable of performing superheroic feats of agility; Dungeon & Dragons' elves are clearly more agile compared to an average human, but they require much experience (i.e., character levels) in a relevant class (such as Monk, Ranger, Rogue/Thief, et cetera) before they can hope to compete with their distant Middle-Earth cousins.
  • Tolkien's elves worship specific gods; Dungeon & Dragons' elves worship different gods.
  • Tolkien's elves represent a handful of "mundane" subspecies; Dungeon & Dragons' elves contain a wider array of subspecies...a few of which are radically different (e.g., the Drow, the Avariel and the Aquatic Elves).


Roughly forty-five years later, that initial seed of inspiration which was planted during D&D's creation has clearly grown into its own unique specimen. Carry on.
Posted By: Terminator2020 Re: Elves are not Elven - 08/08/21 09:18 AM
Ragitsu you have claimed falsely that Humans have always been taller then Elves in DnD.
Can you not read this please:
Originally Posted by Sozz
Races of Faerûn has their official heights and weights. I believe this is 3e (as in not 3.5)

Human, man 4´10” +2d10 120 lb. × (2d4) lb.
Human, woman 4´ 5” +2d10 85 lb. × (2d4) lb.
Elf, drow, female 4'5" +2d6 80 lb. ×(1d6) lb.
Elf, drow, male 4'5" +2d6 85 lb. ×(1d6) lb.
Elf, moon or sun, female 4'5" +2d10 70 lb. ×(2d4) lb.
Elf, moon or sun, male 4'10" +2d10 90 lb. ×(2d4) lb.
Elf, wild or wood, female 4'5" +2d10 80 lb. ×(2d4) lb.
Elf, wild or wood, male 4'10" +2d10 100 lb. ×(2d4) lb.

And this is 5e

Human 4'8" +2d10 110 lb. × (2d4) lb.
Dwarf, hill 3'8" +2d4 115 lb. × (2d6) lb.
Dwarf, mountain 4' +2d4 130 lb. × (2d6) lb.
Elf, high 4'6" +2d10 90 lb. × (1d4) lb.
Elf, wood 4'6" +2d10 100 lb. × (1d4) lb.
Halfling 2'7" +2d4 35 lb. × 1 lb.

All gotten from the intranet
From there one can see Wizards of the Coast changed in 5e that Elves are shorter by 0,2 so very little shorter and I dont know about 4h edtion and then since Pathfinder is evolved from DnD 3.5 I suspect very strongly they use that Dnd 3.5 heights in Pathfinder.

I will happily ignore the new Dnd 5th height tables absolutely and use the height in Dnd 3.5 and Pathfinder

That is not all in BG3 I did not like the default green color for skin for my Wood Elf so I changed skin color and eye color to typical Tolkien type Elf there you go.
Right now there are yet no so many mods, but rest assure I would use some mods that would make some forum members roll their eyes hehee not likely to modify my character if my character is a male.

Well and in Pen and Paper I have often told my height to GM who have said ok. Well not that I have said example 7 feet tall and I have never created an extreme tall character in DnD well not to mentions sometimes I have created a dwarf and dwarves are not tall.

I don´t know about rest of Europe or USA or Canada, but in my country Finland in Europe of Dnd systems Pathfinder is most popular in Pen and Paper and not DnD 5th. That said Dnd 5th is more popular in my country then the infamous and hated Dnd 4th edition that I consider the worst Dnd edition released.
Personally I am not so Pathfinder only fan and I could say yes to Pathfinder or Dnd 5th edition Pen and Paper session, but I would say no to DnD4th edition session. Due to COVID 19 remote play has become very popular. Nowadays computer software to make that happen is used people use Discord and other software you can have voice communication from distance and some even use webcamera and very visual presentation you can see what GM choose to show including also Dnd tactical grid maps for combat and visual pictures of monsters.
All that has a bit learning curve and not saying GM would be super easy.

Well and this sounds I play often Pen and Paper? No I play very rarely and one can do short campaign and one can take years of break or quit totally.
Posted By: spacehamster95 Re: Elves are not Elven - 08/08/21 11:16 AM
No, DnD 3,5 and Pathfinder 1e did not use the same racial statistics. Pathfinder generally modified a lot on player races.
Posted By: Terminator2020 Re: Elves are not Elven - 08/08/21 12:51 PM
Originally Posted by spacehamster95
No, DnD 3,5 and Pathfinder 1e did not use the same racial statistics. Pathfinder generally modified a lot on player races.
You are correct.

I checked now.
In DnD 3.5 humans and Elves same height.
Pathfinder Elves crystal clear taller then humans. Even the Drow the shortest Elf race is taller then Humans.

Dnd 4th edition which I truly HATE now for these reasons:
A. Most complicated rules and combat can take long time. This Dnd version is most difficult for a newbie to learn. Well Pathfinder can be equally challenging to learn, but if you have played Dnd 3.5 before then Pathfinder is easier to learn then DnD4th edition. This coming from me WOW MMO veteran I understood immediately Hunters Mark and stuff borrowed from WOW MMO to DnD 4th edition.
B. They removed lots of dice rolling and boring calculated this heals % of your total hitpoints crap.
C. In DnD 4th edtion Humans very clearly are taller then Elves.
D. Someone said the World and lore not good well can not judge this I was so annoyed by rules so have never played this
except Nevewinter MMO but that is Action Combat and adaption of DnD 4th edition rules and during levelup I looked at guides from Internet.
NEUTRAL: This I do not find negative or specially positive, but Dnd borrowed elements from World of Warcraft MMO example for Ranger Hunters Mark
spell that is directly copied from WOW MMO. On the other hand WOW MMO have borrowed much fantasy ideas from Tolkien and DnD world.

DnD 5th edition.
A. Rules simplified from DnD4th edition. Easier for a newbie to learn, understand and faster gameplay.
B. Dice rolls added back and stupid % things removed.
C. The difference between Elves and Humans now less then in Dnd 4th or Pathfinder... Humans 0.2 average heigth taller.
Well this C is not COMPLETE correction of Elf height, but at least better then the crap DnD4th edition.
NEUTRAL: The elements borrowed from WOW MMO example Hunters Mark for Ranger spell is still in Dnd 5th edition, but I am ok with this.

Ragitsu your statment that Elves have always been shorter in Dnd is complete garbage. Ok Drow race might separately be shorter, but not the other Elf races.


I will ignore any GM saying I must have short Elf if i say in pen and paper session my Elf is 6 feet tall then GM must accept or I can say sorry I will not play with you

Well and since in my country Finland (in Europe) Pathfinder is clearly most popular DnD played nowadays guess what Elves are tall hehee.
Well and DnD 5th edtion is not bad or rare in Finland though second after Pathfinder and I could say yes also to a Dnd 5th edition pen and paper session. Well and the only Dnd version that I hate is Dnd 4th edition that is the most hated Dnd version in my country.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Elves are not Elven - 08/08/21 01:42 PM
To summarize, everyone has a different concept of what elves should look like, how tall they should be, etc. Therefore, if Larian could provide some additional model options that are more elfish for those who want and prefer more elfish features, AND if they provided the ability to adjust height and build, I think this would satisfy everyone on this thread. Don't take away anything for those who enjoy current models. Just add a few with more elfish, fey features and do the height/body adjust thing.

Does that pretty much satisfy the masses?
Posted By: Zellin Re: Elves are not Elven - 08/08/21 01:58 PM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
To summarize, everyone has a different concept of what elves should look like, how tall they should be, etc. Therefore, if Larian could provide some additional model options that are more elfish for those who want and prefer more elfish features, AND if they provided the ability to adjust height and build, I think this would satisfy everyone on this thread. Don't take away anything for those who enjoy current models. Just add a few with more elfish, fey features and do the height/body adjust thing.

Does that pretty much satisfy the masses?
No. Because that won't address the problem with NPCs. It's hard to tell elf NPCs from humans at the moment. To the point that... do you remeber 2 guys near Dror Ragzlin? One of them drow and another one is human with guite delicate facial features. I needed to look closer at his ears to realise that he's NOT an elf! Bacause at the moment the game taught me that elfs are just like that: same bodies, just more delicate faces and pointy ears.
Posted By: Icelyn Re: Elves are not Elven - 08/08/21 03:57 PM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
I could roll snake eyes and a human is what, 4'10". I could roll 20 for an elf and have an elf that is 6'2". According to the rules, you can have some elves taller than some humans and vice versa.
Perfect! smile
Posted By: Ragitsu Re: Elves are not Elven - 08/08/21 04:13 PM
Originally Posted by Terminator2020
Ragitsu your statment that Elves have always been shorter in Dnd is complete garbage.

My nonexistent quote? Go ahead and fetch it. I can wait.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Elves are not Elven - 08/08/21 05:30 PM
Originally Posted by Zellin
Originally Posted by GM4Him
To summarize, everyone has a different concept of what elves should look like, how tall they should be, etc. Therefore, if Larian could provide some additional model options that are more elfish for those who want and prefer more elfish features, AND if they provided the ability to adjust height and build, I think this would satisfy everyone on this thread. Don't take away anything for those who enjoy current models. Just add a few with more elfish, fey features and do the height/body adjust thing.

Does that pretty much satisfy the masses?
No. Because that won't address the problem with NPCs. It's hard to tell elf NPCs from humans at the moment. To the point that... do you remeber 2 guys near Dror Ragzlin? One of them drow and another one is human with guite delicate facial features. I needed to look closer at his ears to realise that he's NOT an elf! Bacause at the moment the game taught me that elfs are just like that: same bodies, just more delicate faces and pointy ears.

I get that it can be hard to tell the difference. I have the same issue with gnomes and halflings and such. Druid in the secret tunnels. Is he a gnome? A halfling? A dwarf? Another example, Ed... is he a dwarf or human? He looks like a dwarf to me, but his siblings are human? Are they siblings or just fellow cultists?

The point is, it isn't just elves versus humans. Sometimes it's hard to tell race just by looking at a character unless they are stereotypical versions of their race.

But stereotypes are boring. There is no diversity at all, then. It also doesn't make sense. I like that Larian tries to avoid cookie cutter NPCs, making various models. Some are obvious. Others are not.

So yes, make some tweaks so we definitely have some stereotypical elves and dwarves and gnomes, but don't necessarily take away from what we already have. That's all I'm saying.
Posted By: Ragitsu Re: Elves are not Elven - 08/08/21 07:10 PM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
So yes, make some tweaks so we definitely have some stereotypical elves and dwarves and gnomes, but don't necessarily take away from what we already have. That's all I'm saying.


Character examples that stand out - in and of themselves - aren't automatically detrimental to immersion. That said, "standard", "baseline" and "average" are less negative than "stereotype", yes? I think most people agree that a starting point/common ground when it comes to basic racial characteristics is fine. Otherwise, what makes x race x race (especially when it comes to a given franchise)?
Posted By: Ragitsu Re: Elves are not Elven - 10/08/21 04:20 AM
Originally Posted by Ragnarök
Astarion is fine, being an elven vampire spawn and not looking like a teengaer, which wouldn't fit.

He's a pretty boy compared to Jander Sunstar (a vampire Gold Elf from The Forgotten Realms).

[Linked Image from i.pinimg.com]

In any case, what differentiates a "vampire spawn" from a regular vampire?
Posted By: Terminator2020 Re: Elves are not Elven - 10/08/21 07:50 AM
What Ragitsu no offence do not find your latest picture not enough pretty he is clearly old for being an Elf that should live long without age symptoms and not handsome or pretty. Astarion is fine yes. I dont get that some consider The Vampire Diaries to teens series. The only drawbacks from The vampire diaires Tv series (I have seen all seasons and now slowly seeing through spinoff series Originals) is to much romance, not enough scary (hardly any scary ever) and repetitive and little bit feeling Vampire theme meets a soap opera with pretty faces, but not really good plot. Yeah and I have also seen all seasons of True Blood tv series. On the other hand I do not find most Horror movies enough scary to my taste.

About Vampire Spawn:
Most of a vampire's victims become vampire spawn — ravenous creatures with a vampire's hunger for blood, but under the control of the vampire that created them. If a true vampire allows a spawn to draw blood from its own body, the spawn transforms into a true vampire no longer under its master's control.

Well so Vampire spawn are often in movies more primitive, dumb Vampires lesser ranked then true full Vampires to make it complicated Vampires among themselves can also have hierarchy a Master of the Vampires that in turn controls Vampires.

Vampires kind of are smarter and not only perhaps act on ravenous blood lust.
Now Astarion is not dumb seems. However if he would meet his maker the Vampire then he would be like a puppet following his masters Vampires commands at least so if the Vampire truly commands him and not say like could you please fix this.
Posted By: Zellin Re: Elves are not Elven - 10/08/21 04:18 PM
Originally Posted by Ragitsu
In any case, what differentiates a "vampire spawn" from a regular vampire?
It's a servant of a vimpire, he's weaker and cannot refuse his masters will. But he can become a vampire if his master will be so generous to feed the spawn with his own blood.
I saw this video a while ago and only now remembered it. The Bard bring up some salient points about how elves are depicted, it's directly about how it differs in the West and in Japan, but interesting nonetheless.
YouTube v=p8fDhdmmDYg&t=429s Link: BardicBroadcasts - Dragon's Crown Elf Figure - Unboxing and Review
I've time-skipped the figure review(not really interesting to me) after which he talks about elves.

He also has a great video on the difference between a Barbarian Hero and a Chivalric Hero.
Re: Vampire Spawn. Oh...of course! Wow, it has been a long time since I flipped to that section of a Monster Manual. Anyhow, I suppose "Vampire Spawn" is easier on early-level game balance than a true "Vampire".

Originally Posted by Sozz
I saw this video a while ago and only now remembered it. The Bard bring up some salient points about how elves are depicted, it's directly about how it differs in the West and in Japan, but interesting nonetheless.
YouTube v=p8fDhdmmDYg&t=429s Link: BardicBroadcasts - Dragon's Crown Elf Figure - Unboxing and Review

Interestingly enough, Japan still favors the old-school porcine orcs.
Posted By: Ragitsu Re: Elves are not Elven - 16/08/21 05:07 AM
Originally Posted by Slippery Catfish
Have to say I'm lukewarm towards the goblins as well. Larian is allowed creative license but they're not coming across as the pack of conniving, savage little beasties I know and love them to be in their designs. Taste is very subjective but at least I'm not the only one who seems to think so.

Exactly. Goblins are one of the evil races - exceptions are just that...exceptional - and they're not supposed to look good or even "average" in comparison to humans. Why oh why someone allowed them to be humanized is beyond my comprehension.
Posted By: Hachina Re: Elves are not Elven - 16/08/21 11:49 AM
Actually , looking at old RPG, i'm glad Larian made Elves attractives. Often in games such as DOS2, you'd have to sacrifice attractiveness/ appeal of the character to go another race. Like Elves were super elongated, you could go reptile and undead. Sure it's fun, but what If I want to play a sexy succubus? A manly , strong dwarf? A delicate elve? I want to be able to identify to the character to some degree, and I don't think its a good things when all others races are too foreign / too differents. Just my tastes though.
Posted By: Terminator2020 Re: Elves are not Elven - 16/08/21 06:51 PM
Originally Posted by Hachina
Actually , looking at old RPG, i'm glad Larian made Elves attractives. Often in games such as DOS2, you'd have to sacrifice attractiveness/ appeal of the character to go another race. Like Elves were super elongated, you could go reptile and undead. Sure it's fun, but what If I want to play a sexy succubus? A manly , strong dwarf? A delicate elve? I want to be able to identify to the character to some degree, and I don't think its a good things when all others races are too foreign / too differents. Just my tastes though.
I agree with you in some regard at least the part with attractive Elves and succubus.

At some point I will add a picture of example of what I find attactive Elf, but not today.

I would say perhaps I am in the middle ground at the end of the day.
I agree with OP Elves could look more Elven, but since I like Tolkien Elves they do not have so such exteeme angular faces in LOTR movies.

Well and here is my point. The women Elf look good...
The default male Elf look slightly to human for my taste with his long hair he could be popstar singer some male humans in real world also have long hair.

Conclusion:
Well if you think about humans not all humans look same.
Perhaps some Elves could look as angular in face as OP post. Other Elves as Tolkien Elves or say less angular in face then OP post.
Posted By: Avallonkao Re: Elves are not Elven - 16/08/21 06:59 PM
Funny is that after trying the female head 2 from Half-elf I think that one has the feeling of an Actual elf than all the elves' actual heads tbh.
Posted By: Terminator2020 Re: Elves are not Elven - 16/08/21 07:03 PM
Originally Posted by Avallonkao
Funny is that after trying the female head 2 from Half-elf I think that one has the feeling of an Actual elf than all the elves' actual heads tbh.
Well and I noticed when I take ideal drempartner at charcacter creation. I only find ONE human face as super attractive rest semi attractive or worse ugly and not what I would call a dream partner. Well and then HALF-ELF woman super attractive. I guess that is offtopic but the human women choices are miserable in this game. Perhaps it is early access but I think they could make multiple the amount the choises you could pick for all races as face or make we can manually change looks in face and body with sliders.

However I think in slider thread the system admin mentioned that Sliders to this game is very unlikely. If so they could multiple the choices for looks in character creation and we can wait for community made mods.
Posted By: Avallonkao Re: Elves are not Elven - 16/08/21 07:32 PM
Originally Posted by Terminator2020
Originally Posted by Avallonkao
Funny is that after trying the female head 2 from Half-elf I think that one has the feeling of an Actual elf than all the elves' actual heads tbh.
Well and I noticed when I take ideal drempartner at charcacter creation. I only find ONE human face as super attractive rest semi attractive or worse ugly and not what I would call a dream partner. Well and then HALF-ELF woman super attractive. I guess that is offtopic but the human women choices are miserable in this game. Perhaps it is early access but I think they could make multiple the amount the choises you could pick for all races as face or make we can manually change looks in face and body with sliders.

However I think in slider thread the system admin mentioned that Sliders to this game is very unlikely. If so they could multiple the choices for looks in character creation and we can wait for community made mods.

Well, I wouldn't have an actual problem with the heads, if they knew how to smile, at least the human heads XD

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Posted By: Terminator2020 Re: Elves are not Elven - 16/08/21 08:09 PM
Originally Posted by Avallonkao
Originally Posted by Terminator2020
Originally Posted by Avallonkao
Funny is that after trying the female head 2 from Half-elf I think that one has the feeling of an Actual elf than all the elves' actual heads tbh.
Well and I noticed when I take ideal drempartner at charcacter creation. I only find ONE human face as super attractive rest semi attractive or worse ugly and not what I would call a dream partner. Well and then HALF-ELF woman super attractive. I guess that is offtopic but the human women choices are miserable in this game. Perhaps it is early access but I think they could make multiple the amount the choises you could pick for all races as face or make we can manually change looks in face and body with sliders.

However I think in slider thread the system admin mentioned that Sliders to this game is very unlikely. If so they could multiple the choices for looks in character creation and we can wait for community made mods.

Well, I wouldn't have an actual problem with the heads, if they knew how to smile, at least the human heads XD

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Your example is beautiful enough no worries would have sex with her happily. That said I do not want to say what human faces or looks I do not find attactive since some people might get offended by that. Actually I did once told what I do not find beautiful and was warned by a moderator it is not good idea to do that.

Here example of beuatiful Half Elf woman face:
[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

Half-Elf woman without tattoos her body is also nice the bo...
[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

However lets not post what we consider ugly. That could upset some people.
It is not that you could not create enough attractive. I wish there would be much more character faces , etc choose from then currently provided.
Well and we could make some of those faces as angular as OP wanted. Others more like Tolkien Elves of my Half-Elf example of a Dream woman.

Well and that is the male ELF that I have a problem with. He looks like a young rockband member with long hair human if you forget the pointed ears.

I checked a Wood Elf you can make her look nice as the above model.
Posted By: Ragitsu Re: Elves are not Elven - 17/08/21 12:54 AM
Originally Posted by Hachina
Actually , looking at old RPG, i'm glad Larian made Elves attractives.

Which RPG did you have in mind? This bunch mostly looks human. Are you implying that standard D&D elves aren't?

Originally Posted by Terminator2020
Perhaps some Elves could look as angular in face as OP post. Other Elves as Tolkien Elves or say less angular in face then OP post.

The default for D&D elves is definitely angular, however.

Originally Posted by Terminator2020
However lets not post what we consider ugly. That could upset some people.

To be fair, if the topic of attractiveness is on the table, there is an implication that something or someone or some metric of physical appearance is unattractive...perhaps ugly. No light without dark, yeah?
Posted By: Baronvonheadless Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 18/08/21 05:31 PM
I agree with the consensus that the majority of pure elf heads are a bit too meaty/rough and ugly and the half elves look far more delicate and more like pure elves. I wonder if any work will be done in this regard, or if at least we'll get a larger variety of head shapes in all races by release time or if this is all we'll get?

To me the pure elves look more like what I imagine half elves jacked up on steroids would look like.
Posted By: Seraphael Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 19/08/21 10:22 AM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
The point is, it isn't just elves versus humans. Sometimes it's hard to tell race just by looking at a character unless they are stereotypical versions of their race.

But stereotypes are boring. There is no diversity at all, then. It also doesn't make sense. I like that Larian tries to avoid cookie cutter NPCs, making various models. Some are obvious. Others are not.

So yes, make some tweaks so we definitely have some stereotypical elves and dwarves and gnomes, but don't necessarily take away from what we already have. That's all I'm saying.

There's always been a silly amount of diversity in D&D, even before it became the functional religion of the elites. So much so that the stereotypes for (male) elves are largely lost. The abnormal has not only become normal, it's completely subverted it - and with it come full circle and kicked diversity in the teeth.

Subverting expectations, particularly when it comes to elves, seem to be a recurring trend from Dragon Age, to Divinity Original Sin, to Baldur's Gate. I posit elven stereotypes wouldn't only be appropriate and wanted by the community, but actually somewhat of a breath of fresh air considering.

I agree there's little point discarding the work done already however - unless the task is resource intensive and Larian feels adding more elven options would require additional work for all other races/genders to balance the tally.
Posted By: Ragitsu Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 19/08/21 09:27 PM
Originally Posted by Seraphael
Subverting expectations, particularly when it comes to elves, seem to be a recurring trend from Dragon Age, to Divinity Original Sin, to Baldur's Gate. I posit elven stereotypes wouldn't only be appropriate and wanted by the community, but actually somewhat of a breath of fresh air considering.

Kind of like how the "everyone is morally grey/secretly reprehensible" subversion in the heroic fantasy genre has been slowly losing ground to classic "good versus evil". It turns out that simple escapism isn't so terrible after all. Crazy, huh?

But, uh...that aside, there has to be a starting point/common ground in order to define what makes an elf an elf (physically, in this case). You can't really subvert something unless you can define the basics.
Posted By: Dez Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 20/08/21 04:10 AM
Holy smokes - I leave the forums for a few weeks due to school and everything explodes. D:

Anyways - in most aspects I (still) definitely agree with OP. I realize that player customization freedom is important and should be prioritized, and hence I would never ask Larian to remove any of the existing faces... But for the love of Corellon - give some proper options for the people who enjoy the typical (FR) elven features.

Personally, I stand in somewhat of a grey zone - judging by the debate. I adore almost all kinds of elves - Tolkien elves (both the dancing and singing elves from the book, and the more elegant ones in the movies) have a special place in my heart as I grew up with the books and the movies and they were my introduction to fantasy (like the audience Alexandrite hinted at), but I have grown to love pretty much all different elven cultures that I have crossed paths with ever since.

Warhammer elves? Love them, especially the wood elves. laugh Dragon Age elves? YUP - dalish elves have grown to be one of my all-time favorites. <3 WoW elves? Yup, I like them (strong preference to the night elves though). The sylvari of GW2? While they are not elves, I absolutely love them and they are my favorite race of GW2. Divinity elves? Yup. Love them as well - horrendous bodies or not. Pathfinder elves? Yup! Took some get-used-to (just like the Divinity elves) - but now I love them as well. <3 Final Fantasy elves? Uhh, still getting over to the "extremely-tall"-thing they got going for them but yeah! I like them. c: DnD elves? Of course - with a special love for Wild Elves and Sun Elves in particular. c:

However - I do prefer if my games stay true to whichever universe they are representing. This is personally more important to me than the characters matching my personal preferences and liking. *BG3 takes place in FR* and hence I'd imagine that the players should AT THE VERY LEAST have the option to look like the elves described in the handbooks and lore, and OP (and Ragitsu) are correct regarding the faces - most elven faces in BG3 do not strike me at all as "elven." Not by the "general" standard, but also (and much more importantly) not by the FR meta standard neither. ESPECIALLY the male ones. The female faces I can at least sorta accept (at least 3 of them) - but some more traditional elven features, even if it is very subtle hints like just tuning the cheekbones, give them a more triangular jaw and/or some sharper lines.

Originally Posted by Ragitsu
Originally Posted by Seraphael
Subverting expectations, particularly when it comes to elves, seem to be a recurring trend from Dragon Age, to Divinity Original Sin, to Baldur's Gate. I posit elven stereotypes wouldn't only be appropriate and wanted by the community, but actually somewhat of a breath of fresh air considering.

Kind of like how the "everyone is morally grey/secretly reprehensible" subversion in the heroic fantasy genre has been slowly losing ground to classic "good versus evil". It turns out that simple escapism isn't so terrible after all. Crazy, huh?

I do hope the "everything gotta be morally grey"-segment disappears soon. I absolutely hate it in RPGs. Most of the times the writing comes off as anything but clever and intriguing when they try way too hard to make all choices "neutral" or "lesser of X evils."

Also, completely off topic (and I apologize for that, but this is IMPORTANT) - I adore your avatar. It goes so well with your way of arguing. Absolutely made my day.
Posted By: Terminator2020 Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 20/08/21 09:00 AM
Originally Posted by Dez
Holy smokes - I leave the forums for a few weeks due to school and everything explodes. D:

Anyways - in most aspects I (still) definitely agree with OP. I realize that player customization freedom is important and should be prioritized, and hence I would never ask Larian to remove any of the existing faces... But for the love of Corellon - give some proper options for the people who enjoy the typical (FR) elven features.

Personally, I stand in somewhat of a grey zone - judging by the debate. I adore almost all kinds of elves - Tolkien elves (both the dancing and singing elves from the book, and the more elegant ones in the movies) have a special place in my heart as I grew up with the books and the movies and they were my introduction to fantasy (like the audience Alexandrite hinted at), but I have grown to love pretty much all different elven cultures that I have crossed paths with ever since.

Warhammer elves? Love them, especially the wood elves. laugh Dragon Age elves? YUP - dalish elves have grown to be one of my all-time favorites. <3 WoW elves? Yup, I like them (strong preference to the night elves though). The sylvari of GW2? While they are not elves, I absolutely love them and they are my favorite race of GW2. Divinity elves? Yup. Love them as well - horrendous bodies or not. Pathfinder elves? Yup! Took some get-used-to (just like the Divinity elves) - but now I love them as well. <3 Final Fantasy elves? Uhh, still getting over to the "extremely-tall"-thing they got going for them but yeah! I like them. c: DnD elves? Of course - with a special love for Wild Elves and Sun Elves in particular. c:

However - I do prefer if my games stay true to whichever universe they are representing. This is personally more important to me than the characters matching my personal preferences and liking. *BG3 takes place in FR* and hence I'd imagine that the players should AT THE VERY LEAST have the option to look like the elves described in the handbooks and lore, and OP (and Ragitsu) are correct regarding the faces - most elven faces in BG3 do not strike me at all as "elven." Not by the "general" standard, but also (and much more importantly) not by the FR meta standard neither. ESPECIALLY the male ones. The female faces I can at least sorta accept (at least 3 of them) - but some more traditional elven features, even if it is very subtle hints like just tuning the cheekbones, give them a more triangular jaw and/or some sharper lines.

Originally Posted by Ragitsu
Originally Posted by Seraphael
Subverting expectations, particularly when it comes to elves, seem to be a recurring trend from Dragon Age, to Divinity Original Sin, to Baldur's Gate. I posit elven stereotypes wouldn't only be appropriate and wanted by the community, but actually somewhat of a breath of fresh air considering.

Kind of like how the "everyone is morally grey/secretly reprehensible" subversion in the heroic fantasy genre has been slowly losing ground to classic "good versus evil". It turns out that simple escapism isn't so terrible after all. Crazy, huh?

I do hope the "everything gotta be morally grey"-segment disappears soon. I absolutely hate it in RPGs. Most of the times the writing comes off as anything but clever and intriguing when they try way too hard to make all choices "neutral" or "lesser of X evils."

Also, completely off topic (and I apologize for that, but this is IMPORTANT) - I adore your avatar. It goes so well with your way of arguing. Absolutely made my day.
School? Sounds you are younger then me in spoiler offtopic real life:

though if you mean University or say study to become a Doctor those studies can take very long indeed. I work in IT field, but more like IT support (and I do also work as landlord) and I am not a game programmer and I am Bachelors Engineer in IT field. However gone are the times you have same employee until pension age. My brother studied in University and has Masters degree work as full stack programmer (that include both front end and back end programming and knowing several programming languages at GURU level).

I feel like IT field constantly changes and there is something new always if you change to a new workplace in the IT field well so you kind of study despite school days are over.
Well though I eat carnosine and antioxidiants and do still martial arts and people respect me and I do not feel old.
Agree Elves can look like in LOTR movies or the picture above I posted previous post and some Elves as OP posted. Well and I am very nasty in some aspects of morals and Belle Delphine CELEBRITY dressed as an Elf is wonderful... I am her fan and she has millions of fans. Well and I do not know many CELEBRITY persons who have dressed up as an Elf at least to find such CELEBRITY pictures is very rare. She is currently 21 years old and in Elf pictures she is 18-21 years roughly.

Regarding companion morals some other people in forums told me that BG3 likely will get say more good alignment characters later in the game. They could add more companions in Act 2 also and not do so we can meet all of them in Act 1. Another theory is that Early Access does not show everything Act 1 will have at full release regarding companions.
Posted By: fallenj Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 20/08/21 02:14 PM
Originally Posted by Dez
However - I do prefer if my games stay true to whichever universe they are representing. This is personally more important to me than the characters matching my personal preferences and liking. *BG3 takes place in FR* and hence I'd imagine that the players should AT THE VERY LEAST have the option to look like the elves described in the handbooks and lore, and OP (and Ragitsu) are correct regarding the faces - most elven faces in BG3 do not strike me at all as "elven." Not by the "general" standard, but also (and much more importantly) not by the FR meta standard neither. ESPECIALLY the male ones. The female faces I can at least sorta accept (at least 3 of them) - but some more traditional elven features, even if it is very subtle hints like just tuning the cheekbones, give them a more triangular jaw and/or some sharper lines.

This +1 Elves/all races should be represented more twords FR and D&D.
Posted By: timebean Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 21/08/21 01:11 AM
Originally Posted by Dez
However - I do prefer if my games stay true to whichever universe they are representing. This is personally more important to me than the characters matching my personal preferences and liking.

Absolutely!

I too was introduced to elves in Tolkien, and those laughing wood-elves versus the sorrowful Lothlorian elves…how I wish that could have been pulled off a teensy bit in the films! That would have been so good. Thinking if Elrond saying “Mr. Anderson”… lol

Dragon Age is an interesting example of consistency. They had very human looking elves that were considered very beautiful by other races in DAO. Then in DA2…baam…very non human looking at all, with much more exaggerated features. But then, I always assumed it was a limitation of the old DAO engine. And at leadt they were still considered beautiful in the game world despite the design change. They also changed their accents from this almost native american vocal structure in DAO to…Irish? In DA2. I chalked that up to the fact that these were Free Marcher Dalish but…it was a glaring difference to me that made internal consistency a little wobbly.

In BG3, my frustration is that elven and half elven faces are much too similar. Human face with elf ears for a half elf? Fine. The only difference for elves being slightly bigger ears than half elf? C’mon! I wish they would at least add more elven faces tgat are more true to FR.

But as with so many things…mods will give options eventually.
Posted By: Khivar Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 23/08/21 09:46 AM
+1
Posted By: Ragitsu Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 23/08/21 08:58 PM
Originally Posted by Dez
I do hope the "everything gotta be morally grey"-segment disappears soon. I absolutely hate it in RPGs. Most of the times the writing comes off as anything but clever and intriguing when they try way too hard to make all choices "neutral" or "lesser of X evils."

On the "pencil-and-paper" RPG front, we may be entering a period of transformation somewhat similar to the one the comic books industry experienced roughly two decades ago. There came a time when people had enough of the dark nineties anti-hero who was frequently little better than the villains they struggled against. Maybe folks delving into classic fantasy worlds will get tired of palling around with demons and devils (fiends in general, really) in the quest for power?

Originally Posted by Dez
Also, completely off topic (and I apologize for that, but this is IMPORTANT) - I adore your avatar. It goes so well with your way of arguing. Absolutely made my day.

Thank you kindly. I've had the picture for a while now, although I hadn't revisited it until late. On the spur of the moment, I decided to repurpose the sly mage for avatar duty. I can't say that I'll retain his services for the remainder of my time here, but if he serves me well...who knows?
Posted By: Ragitsu Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 25/08/21 02:44 AM
Check out the elves ->
Posted By: MarbleNest Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 25/08/21 12:31 PM
I also admit I'm not too terribly fond of some of the features of the elven faces, particularly on males. There's one or two decent ones, though one of them seems to work better with drow tones vs. lighter tones for the other elves. The jaws in particular are obscenely wide for a typical elf design, and it really stands out in a bad way when comparing to half elf faces.

Not to say they should be gotten rid of entirely, as I'm sure there are those who enjoy them greatly. But adding more variety, or even adjusting half elf heads to work for elves as well, would be much appreciated. Currently I have one drow I'm happy with, but the other I made with a half-elf base simply because I didn't like any other faces available in the elven options.
Posted By: Avallonkao Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 25/08/21 12:40 PM
Originally Posted by MarbleNest
I also admit I'm not too terribly fond of some of the features of the elven faces, particularly on males. There's one or two decent ones, though one of them seems to work better with drow tones vs. lighter tones for the other elves. The jaws in particular are obscenely wide for a typical elf design, and it really stands out in a bad way when comparing to half elf faces.

Not to say they should be gotten rid of entirely, as I'm sure there are those who enjoy them greatly. But adding more variety, or even adjusting half elf heads to work for elves as well, would be much appreciated. Currently I have one drow I'm happy with, but the other I made with a half-elf base simply because I didn't like any other faces available in the elven options.

And the human heads then? it's like they turned on the random generator for heads like those mmos with sliders and added the results in their CC. I wouldn't be surprised if it was the same with the elves, their heads, asides from number 4 in my opinion simply doesn't look elvish at all, it's just another human head in a small different shape.

I hope they don't go the Bioware way and many new games where nonsensical and ugly models is what they think it's "natural"
Posted By: MarbleNest Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 25/08/21 12:50 PM
Originally Posted by Avallonkao
And the human heads then? it's like they turned on the random generator for heads like those mmos with sliders and added the results in their CC. I wouldn't be surprised if it was the same with the elves, their heads, asides from number 4 in my opinion simply doesn't look elvish at all, it's just another human head in a small different shape.

I hope they don't go the Bioware way and many new games where nonsensical and ugly models is what they think it's "natural"

I can't comment too much on the human heads, since I haven't really played a human yet! I remember looking through the female faces once, and found some of them a bit too... "old" I guess? But they weren't particularly bad I suppose. However, this was right as I bought the game, so my memory isn't super great for it.

In general, I feel some additional face options might go a long way for most races - tieflings included. There's only 1 male tiefling face I like all that much, and I still have major problems with the way the face is built just from an aesthetics point of view. It's prevented me from playing a tiefling thus far, despite them being my second favorite race after drow.
Posted By: Ragitsu Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 25/08/21 11:33 PM
It's so strange how the drow were done more justice than "ordinary" elves.
Posted By: Avallonkao Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 26/08/21 01:32 AM
Originally Posted by Ragitsu
It's so strange how the drow were done more justice than "ordinary" elves.


Drows and Elves share the same heads
Posted By: Ragitsu Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 26/08/21 02:07 AM
Originally Posted by Avallonkao
Originally Posted by Ragitsu
It's so strange how the drow were done more justice than "ordinary" elves.


Drows and Elves share the same heads

Drow are elves. Still...perhaps it's all the ultraviolet radiation they avoid grin?
Posted By: MarbleNest Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 26/08/21 03:26 AM
Originally Posted by Ragitsu
Originally Posted by Avallonkao
Originally Posted by Ragitsu
It's so strange how the drow were done more justice than "ordinary" elves.


Drows and Elves share the same heads

Drow are elves. Still...perhaps it's all the ultraviolet radiation they avoid grin?

I think perhaps it's simply that some of the head models look better with the darker or more ashen skin tones drow can have, as opposed to the lighter values for the other three types of elves.

I know the face option with more Asian features seems to look better to me with dark drow tones than with lighter tones - not because the face itself is bad by any means, but just... I suppose it almost feels too "wide" compared to some of the half-elf faces? Like physically wide, jawline and head alike. But drow tones smooth that out a bit more, or at least seem to make it less apparent.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

An example using my main drow character. Of course, angles and lighting help as well, but I've tried a lighter-skinned elf with that face and it was just somehow... off, I guess?
Posted By: Ragitsu Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 27/08/21 10:13 PM
Originally Posted by MarbleNest
An example using my main drow character. Of course, angles and lighting help as well, but I've tried a lighter-skinned elf with that face and it was just somehow... off, I guess?

MarbleNest, this design decision is something of a shame. Drow are not "palette swaps" of their surface cousins; a difference in height (and, therefore, proportions?), in particular, is one physical characteristic that distinguishes the former from the latter.

Drizzt and Kellindil - 1
Drizzt and Kellindil - 2
Posted By: MarbleNest Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 28/08/21 01:06 AM
Originally Posted by Ragitsu
Originally Posted by MarbleNest
An example using my main drow character. Of course, angles and lighting help as well, but I've tried a lighter-skinned elf with that face and it was just somehow... off, I guess?

MarbleNest, this design decision is something of a shame. Drow are not "palette swaps" of their surface cousins; a difference in height (and, therefore, proportions?), in particular, is one physical characteristic that distinguishes the former from the latter.

Drizzt and Kellindil - 1
Drizzt and Kellindil - 2

I'm... not quite sure what your point is or why this is relevant to the topic at hand? Nor what the comic pages serve to illustrate?

Just going off of your "they are not palette swaps" statement, the comics already discredit that - Drizzt is clearly different in appearance, skin and hair tone included, from the other elf.

Though even so, I'm just not really sure what point you were making here in response to me sharing my drow to illustrate how a certain face seems to look better when used with darker tones - be them the obsidian swatches available to drow, or simply the darker browns of elf and human.

If it's some personal issue with the tones I chose to use on him, well - that isn't really relevant to the greater topic regarding elven face options, and it also comes down to personal preference. I like those tones for the drow I typically play, though they can always be of lighter shades as well! This is just what I prefer for my own drow characters. smile
Posted By: Sozz Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 28/08/21 01:49 AM
It's pretty straight-forward, Drow scowl in disgust, Elves have an aloof sneer.

As for proportions, Drow should be what Elves would look like if they became underdwellers, so shorter, and perhaps even more wan. With that in mind Drow should be about Human height, but more wiry. And with D&D Elves being already the same height or shorter than Humans, Drow should be shorter than Humans.
I think the way I've usually thought about it, humans look life they evolved from primates, while Elves look like they were created to be beautiful, so much so that they become inhumanly beautiful. Like if you asked someone to draw a person but gave them a description of only the most attractive traits, it would look off.

Like someone mentioned, a pallid white is common for creatures that never expect to be viewed in the light, similar to the Drider art from the 3e monster manual(it's pretty rad). That being said, I believe Drow are dark skinned because of their accursed origin, so 'palette swap' isn't exactly a terrible way of describing it.
Posted By: Ragitsu Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 28/08/21 03:33 AM
Originally Posted by MarbleNest
Originally Posted by Ragitsu
Originally Posted by MarbleNest
An example using my main drow character. Of course, angles and lighting help as well, but I've tried a lighter-skinned elf with that face and it was just somehow... off, I guess?

MarbleNest, this design decision is something of a shame. Drow are not "palette swaps" of their surface cousins; a difference in height (and, therefore, proportions?), in particular, is one physical characteristic that distinguishes the former from the latter.

Drizzt and Kellindil - 1
Drizzt and Kellindil - 2

I'm... not quite sure what your point is or why this is relevant to the topic at hand? Nor what the comic pages serve to illustrate?

Just going off of your "they are not palette swaps" statement, the comics already discredit that - Drizzt is clearly different in appearance, skin and hair tone included, from the other elf.

Though even so, I'm just not really sure what point you were making here in response to me sharing my drow to illustrate how a certain face seems to look better when used with darker tones - be them the obsidian swatches available to drow, or simply the darker browns of elf and human.

If it's some personal issue with the tones I chose to use on him, well - that isn't really relevant to the greater topic regarding elven face options, and it also comes down to personal preference. I like those tones for the drow I typically play, though they can always be of lighter shades as well! This is just what I prefer for my own drow characters. smile

Oh. I wasn't trying to imply that you made that assertion; I was simply rebutting similar arguments before they were even made. Sorry for any potential confusion up.
Posted By: Ragitsu Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 28/08/21 03:45 AM
Originally Posted by Sozz
It's pretty straight-forward, Drow scowl in disgust, Elves have an aloof sneer.

Brilliant!

Originally Posted by Sozz
IAs for proportions, Drow should be what Elves would look like if they became underdwellers, so shorter, and perhaps even more wan. With that in mind Drow should be about Human height, but more wiry. And with D&D Elves being already the same height or shorter than Humans, Drow should be shorter than Humans.
I think the way I've usually thought about it, humans look life they evolved from primates, while Elves look like they were created to be beautiful, so much so that they become inhumanly beautiful. Like if you asked someone to draw a person but gave them a description of only the most attractive traits, it would look off.

Canon sources go back and forth on this, but there's at least one instance of drow being described as more attractive than ordinary elves, so...there's that.

--- --- ---

Anyhow, here are two more official examples of elves that appear elfin; the source is Dragonlance, but there's virtually no difference between their elves and those of the Realms.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Posted By: Sozz Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 28/08/21 05:46 AM
OP did it best in the first post as far as visual examples
Originally Posted by Goldberry
Hello Larian Team,

I hope this post finds the team well and I want to offer my congratulations on the efforts of your game designers and the dreams realised with the launch of Baldur's Gate 3 early access. I eagerly look forward to testing future editions of the title and seeing the studio's completed work in a year's time.

To this end, after viewing forum posts and opinions from the game's community, I wanted to more directly convey these player's and my own concerns regarding BG3's portrayal of Elves. Many testers have found the Elf faces off-putting and unrepresentative of the Elven race long time D&D players know and appreciate (And, in many cases, love to hate!). The technical quality of the faces Larian Studios has designed are superb even at this early stage, but their lack of authenticity specifically regarding the Elves has been a disappointment.

Narrower chins and jaws, shifted, widened and slanted eyes, high and prominent cheekbones, an unsettling, inhumanly haunting beauty about them; these qualities aren't being reflected as well as they could be. Tieflings have been brought to life like never before in the artistic medium of game design and I know many of the players and fans would approve of that same life and vivid creative design breathed into Elves.

Current head models don't and shouldn't need to be done away with entirely, but it's my feeling that a not insignificant number of the community would be more enticed to try a race like Elves if they had head model choices that were closer in authenticity to the original material. I hope this has given the team ideas to consider going forward and I would be pleased to correspond further about the matter.

The first piece of feedback that I would like to offer is that, interestingly enough, all of the half elf heads look more delicate and elven than the actual elven heads.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Many of us who have always have a soft spot for elves would be very happy if we could get at least a couple of heads that look more 'traditional', that is, less human and a little more like they belong to a different race. Elves are beautiful, yes, but key words in their description are often overlooked and not given much tought. They are not described as breath-taking, or captivating, although they might be. They are described with words such as unsettling, unnerving, haunting, when it comes to their beauty. This is no casual choice of wording, it clearly states elves are simply not meant to be or feel relatable.

This sketch perfectly examples the physiology of elves; the slanted eyes, triangular/heartshaped features, sharp noses and chins, and a general 'otherly' feel that is not relatable to any of the human heritages of our world.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.pinimg.com]



One of the stances that I have encountered every so often when discussing this around the forums, is people claiming that '5E elves look just like humans in the official artwork', with none of the features that are known to older editions. I disagree with that not as an opinion but simply as a matter of fact, I've done the research around and gathered plenty of official artwork that still depicts these features, if not as prominent as it used to be:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

THIS IS ALL 5E OFFICIAL ARTWORK I gathered from the manuals. Many people act like they don't exist. You can still see the high cheekbones, the slanted eyes, the triangular shaped face, all of it is there, if not as extremely displayed as it used to in older editions. Yet none of the current heads look like this. I think we would be happy with a few heads that have this sort of traditional features, the slanted eyes per instance are entirely missing, not a single head has this key feature.

In case you do not genuinelly see the features, here you go:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Likewise, this kind of art is represented in the original Baldur's Gate games, as can be seen in Aerie's and Jaheira's portraits:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

I would like for this topic to be open to discuss not just aesthetics and appeareance but also all things elven related. I have not delved into the game deeply enough to give feedback with full confidence yet, but I have had zero meaningful interactions as an elf in the world. The few 'elven' dialog choices that have popped up have been shallow and meaningless, whereas after a quick and short lived gameplay as a drow I was presented with a lot more options (which I was surprised of, very well done there, Larian.)

Elves are also described to be tight-knit as a race, something that manifests not just psychologically or emotionally but, literally, physically, through something known as communion. In short, it is an inborn ability to share experiences, feelings, emotions and dreams with other willing elves. While I do not expect such a mechanic to be adapted in the game -cool as it might be-, it does give a hint to just how important it is for elves to be around, and acknowledged by other elves. I expected to see some special interactions with Astarion and Shadowheart as an elf player, yet there were none. Astarion, vampire or not, simply did not have a single elven trait about him other than the mechanic stats and cantrips.
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.pinimg.com]
Posted By: TheAscendent Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 28/08/21 07:32 AM
Do Elf PC's go into the trance/meditation instead of sleeping?
Posted By: Sozz Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 28/08/21 07:49 AM
Yes, an Elf PC and Astarion sit cross-legged on their mats when you do a long rest.

Though in a scene with Astarion you're shown lying down but the narrator says you are in a trance.

They also can't be put to sleep with spells, or if you've been duped into drinking a potion of sleep.
Posted By: Ragitsu Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 28/08/21 08:02 AM
Originally Posted by Sozz
OP did it best in the first post as far as visual examples

-*snipped text and images*-

I already went over that information, but, thank you for the effort. A few examples I elected to share are here and here.

Anyhow, from my point of view, there is no joy in the idea that - apart from the Aquatic Elves and Avariel, who both possess differing anatomy that is distinct even from a distance - all of the elves (Sun/High, Moon, Wood/Wild and Dark) are only superficially different from one another. Naturally, there are some unifying features between them all and there is always the possibility of exceptions to the rule ("Goodness and stars above, are you certain you do not have ancestors from Evermeet?", he said to the curiously blushing drow.), but to say there's no real variation otherwise? That is the path of least resistance. I prefer the journey of a thousand miles which begins with a single step; enough effort poured into the little details is what makes a piece of art endure.
Posted By: Black_Elk Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 28/08/21 08:04 AM
Originally Posted by TheAscendent
Do Elf PC's go into the trance/meditation instead of sleeping?

Sozz beat me to it hehe

Yeah they sit cross legged with a 100 yard stare basically.

The main difference between Elf and Drow female heads that I can see, is that the one defaults to makeup 3 (cat's eyes) and the other to make up 9 (the smokey eyes.) They also start with hair at opposite sides of the haircut presets, different colored eyes and slightly different saturation in the skin tones. But otherwise the heads are the same. Those secondary elements do combine to make them seem rather different, but the shape the skull and basic features is the same. I think heads 3 and 4 are fine, they have some angles at the bottom of the skull and good ears, but not really the eyes or cheeks of the more stylized elven looks out there. All the other heads look more explicitly human to me, and I think would pass for half elves better than elves. I wouldn't mine one or two otherworldly elves with the more triangular skulls and somewhat larger eyes. Though I understand why its hard for them to make both looks look convincing next to each other.

I think at one end of the spectrum you have faerie looking creatures more the way Alan Lee drew them, and at the other end faerie looking creatures more the way Brian Froud drew them. Which is a convenient divide if you like their book, and about the best one can get for a marriage between the two extremes lol. I wouldn't mind having faces that serviced both preferences to be honest. They just need a lot more preset heads to make this work well. Like considerably more heads/faces than we have currently. There is really only have 1 head per gender per race that I like enough to use on a PC, which is kind of a bummer. Though the faces I do like are done quite well, there's just not enough of them or enough variety.
Posted By: Ragitsu Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 28/08/21 09:00 AM
Every Half-Elf being "Human with pointy ears" isn't exactly thrilling either.
Posted By: Ragitsu Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 31/08/21 06:09 AM
Originally Posted by DumbleDorf
All the Halfling faces on the other hand made me cry.

At least they don't possess H.R. Giger skulls à la certain 3e artwork grin.
Posted By: Ragitsu Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 03/09/21 02:28 AM
Originally Posted by Zeraman
Even if the more elvish look isn't doable for facial animation reasons, etc.,

This is a difficult pill to swallow. With all the technology available for three-dimensional animation and all the creative people in the world, you're telling me a lore-accurate Forgotten Realms elf can't be properly animated?
Posted By: Ragitsu Re: Elves are not Elven - 05/09/21 01:13 AM
Originally Posted by deadsanta
This is a pointless thread IMO.

No. Not at all. There are common features that bind the various elves together. Besides which, unless there's some exception I'm blanking on, the "standard" D&D elf that has reached maturity is not goblinesque or built like a human child.
Posted By: Ragitsu Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 08/09/21 08:49 PM
Originally Posted by Sechrima
I agree that Larian should keep the current heads but add some new ones that look like proper, otherworldly elves (and half-elves). That way they don't have to scrap any of the currently advertised companion designs like Astarion and Shadowheart. At the same time, they'll also please more discerning fans. The more human-like heads I can just pretend are elves with a bit of human ancestry or something.

I'd rather proper heads replace the Humanelves we already have. They're going to look odd by comparison...
Posted By: D5R Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 09/09/21 01:23 PM
Originally Posted by MarbleNest
I also admit I'm not too terribly fond of some of the features of the elven faces, particularly on males. There's one or two decent ones, though one of them seems to work better with drow tones vs. lighter tones for the other elves. The jaws in particular are obscenely wide for a typical elf design, and it really stands out in a bad way when comparing to half elf faces.

Not to say they should be gotten rid of entirely, as I'm sure there are those who enjoy them greatly. But adding more variety, or even adjusting half elf heads to work for elves as well, would be much appreciated. Currently I have one drow I'm happy with, but the other I made with a half-elf base simply because I didn't like any other faces available in the elven options.

Could not agree more. It's exactly same for me and I really hope that Larian takes a note of this issue with the elven faces.
Posted By: Ragitsu Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 11/09/21 11:10 PM
Originally Posted by Slippery Catfish
Originally Posted by Maxximenez
Your friendly reminder that the yoked AF, 7 foot tall druid Halsin is a "wood elf".

Dude looks like a cream-colored orc.

He looks like a jacked up half elf to me, and even then his masculine as hell, Chad-like features shatter that. Take the point off his ears and the character is just a large human.

Whoops, I accidentally outlined the problem with BG3's elves.

It is somewhat disheartening, yes. Is Larian pandering to people scared of elves?
Posted By: Moradin's hammer Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 12/09/21 11:29 AM
Honestly, BG3 has been a breath of fresh air in the elven department. Especially Halsin - that man single-handedly destroyed the common stereotype of elves being toothpicks with ears. He has my eternal respect for that, and Larian for creating him. Also, I think Tolkien himself didn't like the idea of elves being drawn as effeminate and weak-looking. He imagined them as buff and superhuman, but people liked drawing lithe prettyboys and prettygirls, and it stuck.
Posted By: timebean Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 12/09/21 11:50 AM
Ahh, the random invoking of Tolkien. It’s like invoking a fantasy Jesus who smokes a pipe.

Tolkien described elves as five things. Tall, slender, fair, with melodious voices, and with a light in their eyes. None of these are Halsin, who is squat, beefcakey, tan, gruff voiced, and as dead eyed as everyone else in game.

The only thing that makes Halsin elvish is his ears. But Tolkien might have had more to say about those, since I am pretty sure he never even described elves as having pointy ears in his books.

But that is all irrelevant. This is DnD. Not Tolkien.

Making the only difference between elves and humans being pointy ears is not a breath of fresh air…it is boring and a bit lazy and the antithesis of both Tolkienesque AND DnD elves.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 12/09/21 12:04 PM
Halsin is the child of Beorne and Arwen from LOTR. He's a big, buff shape changer with pointy ears and maybe a few elfish features in his face.

That said, I really like him as well. I agree that it's about time someone created an elf that wasn't the stereotype. I often wondered, do elves ever get fat? Do they have no ability to gain weight or bulk up? Are they always very ugly looking, because most images of elves aren't very attractive to me?

There are SO many types of humans. Why do all elves have to look a certain way?
Posted By: Moradin's hammer Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 12/09/21 12:16 PM
Originally Posted by timebean
Ahh, the random invoking of Tolkien. It’s like invoking a fantasy Jesus who smokes a pipe.
Forgotten Realms' elves owe a lot of their aesthetics to artwork on LotR, and that's a fact. So I thought it might be a good idea to point out the original inspiration for modern fantasy elves - like it or not, it's revelant.

And in BG3 some elves could pass as humans, sure. Others are different enough with their green/golden skin. Even though I'm more of a dwarf fan, I never looked at BG3 elves as boring.
BG3 elves look great! smile
I honestly don't see why people are blowing a fuse about the look of elves in the game. When I look at my elf female, she looks like an elf to me.

Elves are supposed to be beautiful. When you make them look too different from humans, they look ugly. My opinion, I know, but that's the way I see it.
Posted By: timebean Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 12/09/21 09:11 PM
Originally Posted by Moradin's hammer
Originally Posted by timebean
Ahh, the random invoking of Tolkien. It’s like invoking a fantasy Jesus who smokes a pipe.
Forgotten Realms' elves owe a lot of their aesthetics to artwork on LotR, and that's a fact. So I thought it might be a good idea to point out the original inspiration for modern fantasy elves - like it or not, it's revelant.

And in BG3 some elves could pass as humans, sure. Others are different enough with their green/golden skin. Even though I'm more of a dwarf fan, I never looked at BG3 elves as boring.

While Tolkien might be indeed be relevant, saying that Tolkien would approve of elves = humans with pointy ears is silly when he never said elves even had pointy ears. Further, pointing out Halsin in particular is also silly because he literally encapsulates the opposite of every descriptor Tolkien ever used for elves. That was mah point.

Now, saying that *you* approve of those design choices is totally valid. Invoking Tolkien willy-nilly was my issue, not anyone’s personal opinion.


Originally Posted by GM4Him
Halsin is the child of Beorne and Arwen from LOTR. He's a big, buff shape changer with pointy ears and maybe a few elfish features in his face.

That said, I really like him as well. I agree that it's about time someone created an elf that wasn't the stereotype. I often wondered, do elves ever get fat? Do they have no ability to gain weight or bulk up? Are they always very ugly looking, because most images of elves aren't very attractive to me?

There are SO many types of humans. Why do all elves have to look a certain way?

Boerne and Arwyn! Lol…love this!! 😜

I don’t mind the elves one way or the other, honestly. Can make what I like with mods like every other rpg, so I am golden.

But then…why have races at all? Why not have a ball of cookie dough for a char creator that we can mold as we like and call what we like, picking stats and proficiencies as we like?

(I would be all for that personally…as long as the game is not WotC).
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 12/09/21 09:28 PM
Best character creator was Skyrim, imo. Make them how you want.

But it seems "elvish" is all a matter of perspective, and that's the issue. It's like Vulcan. Are they REALLY different from humans? Yes. Stat-wise, yes. Appearance? Pointy ears. That's it. Romulan too. Klingon? Couple of ridges on the face.
Posted By: timebean Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 12/09/21 09:53 PM
True…but Star Trek did not have the creative freedom one could have with a video game. The budget of the original series where these races were introduced was notoriously low.

Having said that…I would love to see a fat elvish barman with a dirty apron. Lol. That would be pretty funny.
Posted By: Ragitsu Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 12/09/21 10:01 PM
Originally Posted by Icelyn
BG3 elves look great! smile

BG3 humans with pointy ears look adequate.
Posted By: Ragitsu Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 12/09/21 10:03 PM
Originally Posted by Moradin's hammer
Originally Posted by timebean
Ahh, the random invoking of Tolkien. It’s like invoking a fantasy Jesus who smokes a pipe.
Forgotten Realms' elves owe a lot of their aesthetics to artwork on LotR, and that's a fact. So I thought it might be a good idea to point out the original inspiration for modern fantasy elves - like it or not, it's revelant.

And in BG3 some elves could pass as humans, sure. Others are different enough with their green/golden skin. Even though I'm more of a dwarf fan, I never looked at BG3 elves as boring.

Tolkien was one source of inspiration among many and this tabletop gaming franchise has evolved quite a bit over time. Also, it is clear that D&D's elves have also diverged significantly since, oh...roughly forty five years ago. Enough with the "but Tolkien" arguments.
Also, this notion that a humanoid race is going to become hideous if - for example - their eyes are enlarged/given an almond shape/slanted (any of which would go a long way towards improving the fidelity of the models) is laughable at best and slightly insulting at worst.
Posted By: geala Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 13/09/21 08:34 AM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Best character creator was Skyrim, imo. Make them how you want.

...

What? Really? I find Skyrim editor quite lacking, at least for males. The faces look ... a bit amorphous. The skinniest variant of the body is still like an anabolic agents abusing muscleman, one of the reasons I never play caster there. And of course we all know that Bethesda is not able to shape human feet (hint: they have toes!) in any of their games.

Ok, in the end it is personal taste. I would prefer a creation method without sliders but diverse good looking presets like in Dragon's Dogma over anything else.

In my opinion BG 3 elves and half elves need more slender and less muscular bodies, without body hair, or at least without chest hair. The faces especially of the elves should be less 1950s superhero-square-chin like. Generally I would like them a bit more androgyne.
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Best character creator was Skyrim, imo. Make them how you want.
I must disagree here ... yes you were able to adjust most (if not all) facial features, but you could never create Dunmer looking like Bosmer, Altmer, or any kind of Humans ... every race had specific facial features that was unchangeable and had to be preserved.
Therefore you were never able to "make them how you want". :-/

Originally Posted by GM4Him
It's like Vulcan. Are they REALLY different from humans? Yes. Stat-wise, yes. Appearance? Pointy ears. That's it. Romulan too.
Difference between Vulcan and Romulas as far as i know, is just cultural ... isnt it?
I thought they were same race, in biological matter.

Also huge problem with litteraly any fantasy race (until recently at least) is that they had to "look like humans" bcs they were "played by humans". laugh
I dont even know if that is even possible to find some person who would have face shaped as pictures showed in OP ... but i kinda doubt that. laugh
I mean sure, there are some exeptions ... personaly i REALLY love what they did with Tim Curry in Legend (where was also really nice goblins btw). :3
But in the end, they both are "just humans with long pointy ears and nose". laugh

Originally Posted by GM4Him
Klingon? Couple of ridges on the face.
Well ...
[Linked Image from hips.hearstapps.com]
Let me rephrase. I liked how you could tweak your character so much.

So I would love it if Larian gave us the ability to take the current models they've given us and then we were able to tweak them like in Skyrim. I like the current models. However, there are those who don't think elves look elfish enough. If they could tweak their models, they could make them look more elfish, and then this would not be as much of a debate.

But really, can't you see the elf in Halsin? He's got more of a round face, but again, why do all elves have to be slender and wimpy looking? Look past the round face for a sec. His face isn't SO far off from being elfish.
I believe Larian allready multiple times confrimed that they will not do sliders ...
I gues we have to hope for more elfish faces ... or wait for mod. :-/
I like the character creator of Dragon Age Inquisition. I made my best characters with that, despite the atrocious lighting. But yeah, if there are no sliders in the final game, I want some more elfy elfs.
I'm all for more faces and more options for character builds. Character creation is one of the things I love to do the most. I'll often create tons of characters and never actually play them through the game just because I like to create characters.

So the more faces and such, the better, imo.
Originally Posted by fylimar
I like the character creator of Dragon Age Inquisition. I made my best characters with that, despite the atrocious lighting. But yeah, if there are no sliders in the final game, I want some more elfy elfs.
You obviously didn't have an elven male main character, making something somewhat handsome was super hard. Very frustrating that what looked decent in CC, more often than not came out weird in the real game.

Really not a fan of sliders where the vast majority lead you to making freaks in general. Presets are preferable to that...if the options are good and varied enough. For male elves they are not - which seems to be somewhat of a recurring trend.
Hah! I find males in general are hard to do in video games. I tend to like to play female MCs because most of the time I can't make a male MC that looks good to me. Whether it's Solasta, Baldur's Gate 3, Skyrim, Pathfinder, Neverwinter Nights 1 or 2, or whatever. It's like female characters can be made to look good, but males just suck. And that doesn't matter if it's half-orc, elf, dwarf, human, or whatever.

I guess I really don't care for sliders either, now that I think about it. The only time I really do like to use them is when I hate all the preset models. If I can at least tweak a preset model to look a bit more the way I have it in my mind, that's better than just having no presets I like. So that was really what I was thinking when I was thinking about Skyrim character building.

I was also thinking about Solasta. Gosh! The models in that game are not so good. There are maybe 1 or 2 per race, if I'm lucky, that I find acceptable at best. Nothing really great and I feel is awesome. I was practically begging for sliders in that game just so I could maybe reduce the nose size of some of the models or tweak the cheek bones or something.
I tried out Male Drow One as my dream-guy-guy, because it looked the worst in char creation. Actually proved to be a lot more attractive in-game. Maybe some animation in the creation screen would help to get a better idea of what the char would look like.
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Let me rephrase. I liked how you could tweak your character so much.

So I would love it if Larian gave us the ability to take the current models they've given us and then we were able to tweak them like in Skyrim. I like the current models. However, there are those who don't think elves look elfish enough. If they could tweak their models, they could make them look more elfish, and then this would not be as much of a debate.

But really, can't you see the elf in Halsin? He's got more of a round face, but again, why do all elves have to be slender and wimpy looking? Look past the round face for a sec. His face isn't SO far off from being elfish.

The argument is that the default elves should look significantly more elfin. Generally speaking, Corellon's children are willowy and do possess delicately sculpted countenances which distinguish them from humans; that is not a "stereotype", that is their racial build. If you wish to tweak your elf so that they look notably different (whether they have human ancestry or just happen to be a one-in-ten-thousand outlier), that's another matter altogether. Half-elves have more leeway, but they too shouldn't ALL be "Humans with pointy ears."
Originally Posted by Seraphael
Originally Posted by fylimar
I like the character creator of Dragon Age Inquisition. I made my best characters with that, despite the atrocious lighting. But yeah, if there are no sliders in the final game, I want some more elfy elfs.
You obviously didn't have an elven male main character, making something somewhat handsome was super hard. Very frustrating that what looked decent in CC, more often than not came out weird in the real game.

Really not a fan of sliders where the vast majority lead you to making freaks in general. Presets are preferable to that...if the options are good and varied enough. For male elves they are not - which seems to be somewhat of a recurring trend.

While I never play male characters, if I can play female, I saw people create really nice looking male elves too. So it is possible. I'm actually very good with sliders, so I like them. They offer more variety
Sliders with caramelized onions.
Originally Posted by fylimar
While I never play male characters, if I can play female, I saw people create really nice looking male elves too. So it is possible. I'm actually very good with sliders, so I like them. They offer more variety

Out of so many thousands of players, of course it was "possible". My point is; a satisfying result shouldn't depend on the player either being artistically gifted, exceptionally lucky, or damned stubborn perfectionist like in my case. I wasted countless hours coming up with something vaguely satisfying between the CC, gameplay and cutscenes - each revealing deviant looks but not always immediately so. In my DA:I experience, the positive of increased variety offered by sliders was *much* less tangible than the negative sheer frustration it offered. The mechanic actually contributed to me eventually discarding the game before completion, having burned out on that process and way too many completionist Hinterland runs lol.

Mass Effect offered the iconic default Shepard preset, a host of mediocre alternative presets and sliders offering more mediocre variety. Having a really good preset option was much preferable to me. Default Shepard felt no less like *my character* between my roleplaying options and my specific builds. So much less time wasted between CC and the usual compulsive "new-characteritis" restarts. No frustration. Completed games...even Andromeda.
I would love more presets. Give us more options for size and shape and face. Spend more money on that and not so much on voice acting the MC. For the most part, a silent MC would probably be better than only having a few choices for voices.

So yes. It would be nice to have even more options for character appearance.

But then again, Larian has to weigh the plethora of options with having too many options and overwhelming people.
Originally Posted by Seraphael
Originally Posted by fylimar
While I never play male characters, if I can play female, I saw people create really nice looking male elves too. So it is possible. I'm actually very good with sliders, so I like them. They offer more variety

Out of so many thousands of players, of course it was "possible". My point is; a satisfying result shouldn't depend on the player either being artistically gifted, exceptionally lucky, or damned stubborn perfectionist like in my case. I wasted countless hours coming up with something vaguely satisfying between the CC, gameplay and cutscenes - each revealing deviant looks but not always immediately so. In my DA:I experience, the positive of increased variety offered by sliders was *much* less tangible than the negative sheer frustration it offered. The mechanic actually contributed to me eventually discarding the game before completion, having burned out on that process and way too many completionist Hinterland runs lol.

Mass Effect offered the iconic default Shepard preset, a host of mediocre alternative presets and sliders offering more mediocre variety. Having a really good preset option was much preferable to me. Default Shepard felt no less like *my character* between my roleplaying options and my specific builds. So much less time wasted between CC and the usual compulsive "new-characteritis" restarts. No frustration. Completed games...even Andromeda.


Well, we are different there. Give me a CC, let me make my individual character. The default Shepards, male and female, were boring and uninspired. I made my femShep myself and was very happy with her.

But this is not even a discussion, since there will be no sliders in BG 3 according to the devs, so you are in luck and I'm not frown.
With enough time i bet someone will create sliders mod. wink
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
With enough time i bet someone will create sliders mod. wink

That's quite the mod!
Posted By: Ragitsu Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 19/09/21 10:24 PM
Originally Posted by TheAscendent
So does Astarion look enough like an Elf?

To me, his appearance errs too much on the side of "human".
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 19/09/21 11:47 PM
Wait! Look closer Everyone! Elves have longer pointed ears than half elves. So they ARE totally different. 😏

I do get why many have an issue. If this was a game for star wars or star trek, and someone made a bunch of models for a race like the chiss, but they only gave them dark skin, that would be dumb. There are more distinguishing traits for the race than mere pointy ears.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 20/09/21 11:10 AM
Originally Posted by Ragitsu
Originally Posted by TheAscendent
So does Astarion look enough like an Elf?
To me, his appearance errs too much on the side of "human".
Agreed ...
Quite handsome human tho ...

//Edit:
Same story with Halsin ... he is TOTALLY pointy eared human, without any doubt. :-/
But oddly enough i like him that way. O_o

To have some faces that would be strictly elvish would be accpetable to me.

Have anyone of you ever done herritage test? laugh
Our origins are mixed as hells ... i mean, i dont want to mess this topic more than it allready is ...
But would be so huge problem to look at elves with human facial features as elves whos blood was probably not so pure few dozen generations back? :P
Posted By: Ragitsu Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 20/09/21 11:22 PM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Wait! Look closer Everyone! Elves have longer pointed ears than half elves. So they ARE totally different. 😏

I do get why many have an issue. If this was a game for star wars or star trek, and someone made a bunch of models for a race like the chiss, but they only gave them dark skin, that would be dumb. There are more distinguishing traits for the race than mere pointy ears.

You could - for example - have a half-elf with "normal" (i.e., human) ears, but with especially elven eyes. There you go...more variety.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 20/09/21 11:31 PM
Lol. But you wouldn't know they were half-elf without the partially pointy ears!
Posted By: Ragitsu Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 21/09/21 12:48 AM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Lol. But you wouldn't know they were half-elf without the partially pointy ears!

I do favor the typical half-elf featuring at least somewhat pointy ears, yeah. You could also go with eye color (if eye shape/size isn't obvious enough) and/or skin color.

--- --- ---

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Sun_elf

Quote
Like all of the Tel-quessir, the sun elves were close to the height of humans, but with notable differences. Sun elves had bronze-colored skin and hair most often of copper, golden blond, and black, with red more uncommon but not unheard of. Sun elves typically had green eyes, though golden ones were also common, often with a liquid appearance, and silver, black, hazel, or copper hues had also been heard of.

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Moon_elf

Quote
Like all elves, the Teu-tel-quessir were tall, close to humans in height, but more slender and beautiful. Moon elf skin was pale, often with an icy blue hue. Moon elf hair was commonly black, blue, or silvery white, although human-like colors were heard of as well, though very rare. Moon elf eyes, like those of other elves, were very commonly green, although some were blue as well. All exhibited a characteristic best described as golden flecks speckled through the iris.

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Drow

Quote
Drow skin tones ranged from dark grey, jet-black, and obsidian, (with various shades of blue), the albino drow known as the Szarkai being an exception. Drow had white, black, or purple teeth, while their gums, tongues, and throats could be red, pink, or purple.

Drow eyes could be of any color, with bright red being the most common. Pale shades that appeared nearly white of blue, lilac, pink, or silver were also frequent. Drow with green, brown, black, amber, or rose-hued eyes existed, but they were rare. Purple or blue eyes indicated surface elves and/or human ancestry. The color of a drow's eyes could also be indicative of their current mental or physical state; drow eyes reddened when they were angry, and turned yellow when they were sick, poisoned, or under some negative magical influence.
Posted By: Ragitsu Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 22/09/21 07:53 AM
Originally Posted by Argonaut
I don't believe the humanization of elves has done anything other than take away something magical and intriguing from the high fantasy genre in every dimension.

It also makes this particular fantasy work look no different from other fantasy works on the market that also went with the path of least resistance.
Posted By: Ragitsu Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 25/09/21 02:42 AM
I finally took a look at that "Halsin" chap. Judging by his skin tone, he appears to have been based on a wood elf. His overall physiology is an outlier as far as 3e elves go...his player must have rolled maximum height (6' 6") and weight (260 lbs). Putting aside his obvious bulk, his physiognomy isn't elfin in the slightest. Someone joked that he must be an orc; I am inclined to call him an "usually handsome half-orc that strongly favors his human half".
Posted By: Ragitsu Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 28/09/21 02:45 AM
Originally Posted by Zandilar
which implies they are much closer on a genetic level than you'd think.

Can we not try to science the magic, please cool?

(Yes, I just used "science" as a verb.)
Posted By: Moradin's hammer Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 28/09/21 11:33 AM
We could also refrain from troping the fantasy. As I've said before, the elves of this game are a breath of fresh air, and I hope they never change. I'm tired of developers trying to make everything different and distinct just for the sake of it - elves are similar to humans in FR. They have slightly different features (which the game reflects imo) and some of them possess an eerily different skin tone, like green for wood elves, or gold/blue for sun/moon elves. Oh, and drow look awesome. Especially their assassin-style leather armor with cowls.

Just checked the editor, and there are no bronze/gold skin colors for sun elves. That's weird, I would give them the sulphur skin color line as default.
Posted By: Ragitsu Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 28/09/21 12:05 PM
Quote
the elves of this game are a breath of fresh air

Closer to "a breath of 2001 air", more like it.

Originally Posted by Moradin's hammer
I'm tired of developers trying to make everything different and distinct just for the sake of it

Ah, this isn't a matter of "different for difference's sake"; that's literally how they are described in canon.

Quote
With their unearthly grace and fine features, elves appear hauntingly beautiful to humans and members of many other races. They are slightly shorter than humans on average, ranging from well under 5 feet tall to just over 6 feet. They are more slender than humans, weighing only 100 to 145 pounds. Males and females are about the same height, and males are only marginally heavier than females.

Elves' coloration encompasses the normal human range and also includes skin in shades of copper, bronze, and almost bluish-white, hair of green or blue, and eyes like pools of liquid gold or silver. Elves have no facial and little body hair. They favor elegant clothing in bright colors, and they enjoy simple yet lovely jewelry

The above excerpt is from the 5e PHB, mind you. Anyone even moderately interested can look at PHBs from virtually every edition in addition to FR campaign setting guides across the years and they'll see essentially the same description. Nowhere are elves simply described as "They appear as humans, but with elongated ears."
Posted By: Icelyn Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 28/09/21 12:27 PM
Originally Posted by Moradin's hammer
As I've said before, the elves of this game are a breath of fresh air, and I hope they never change.
Agree!
Posted By: Moradin's hammer Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 28/09/21 12:31 PM
They got the skin color part right, aside from sun elves not getting the yellow options. And what did they get wrong per this description? Haunting beauty? There were a few nice faces in the editor, weren't there?
Posted By: Ragitsu Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 29/09/21 04:52 AM
People forget that Aerie is a (surface) elf; elves mature at a slower rate than humans. However, Underdark drow - despite also being elves - are forced to mature quickly thanks to their dog-eat-dog culture.
Posted By: spacehamster95 Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 29/09/21 06:56 AM
I mean according to lore elves reach physical maturity by the age of 25 but not considered fully adults by their society until they are at least 100 years old. Drows are distinct as you say, cause they view physical maturity as paragon compared to psychological or social adulthood.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 29/09/21 11:01 AM
Originally Posted by Ragitsu
People forget that Aerie is a (surface) elf; elves mature at a slower rate than humans. However, Underdark drow - despite also being elves - are forced to mature quickly thanks to their dog-eat-dog culture.
I think you are switching two concepts here ...
Its one thing when your body transformation is finaly complete ... you stop growing ... and therefore you are physicaly mature.
And its another thing, when society is forcing you to take rights and responsibilities ... and therefore since that moment you are concidered mature.

I dont quite see any conection to models that are used for Baldur's Gate elves tho. laugh
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 29/09/21 05:33 PM
Look, bottom line is, it can't hurt to offer more elvish models. Just don't take away the ones we have or lock them out just because you chose elf.

Seriously, I still don't get the fuss about elves not being elfish enough. Take us humans. Are we all one skin tone, one body type? Do we all have pointy noses or all flat noses? Are we all tall, or all short?

No. So why can't elves also be diverse? Must all sun elves have the same skin tones with "fey" features? Can't some have pudgy noses?

Oh wait. It's because race means that you belong to a certain genetic pool. If you saw an oriental person, and they said they were full-blooded African, that would make no sense. Why? Because both descended from two different ancestral lines, forming different genetic pools. An African would not have the same characteristics as an Asian and vice versa unless they intermarried.

So the same should be true for elves, dwarves, humans, etc. An elf should not have a pudgy nose like a dwarf because it's simply not in their bloodlines. They aren't typically huge, like Halsin, because genetically, that's not a thing.

But then... Sometimes nature happens. A man with short parents is super tall. A woman with who are blond has dark hair.

So, I say that yes, there should be more elfish models, but not all elves need to be elfish. Some can look like pretty humans with pointy ears. Halsin is also fine as an exception. Maybe there's some human blood mingled in there distantly. Who knows?

Oh! Speaking of which, why can't WE create characters with Halsin's body type? The model's there! 😠
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 29/09/21 07:55 PM
@GM4Him

I agree with all you said ...
The problem here is that there isnt just "some elves" with pudgy noses or without widened and slanted eyes ...

Curently its all of them and that is what people are criticising here. :-/

I mean, i would cerainly keep few elves as they are ... the more elvish they look, the better, and some exceptons too (Halsin, Kagha, ...) but they really should be exceptions. laugh

Posted By: Ragitsu Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 30/09/21 02:07 AM
Originally Posted by henbit
Thread's too long to read the whole thing but:

I think this is probably just an EA issue? Agreed though, I was definitely a bit sad when I realized that Humans, Elves, Half-Elves, and tieflings all share the same body model. Isn't that probably just because the bodies are lower development priority at this point though?

Also, the female Githyanki is just the generic female model as well I believe.

Elves should DEFINITELY get their own body model at the very least, and yeah, the heads and facial hair feel way too human.

Thanks guys!

Yes, even the tieflings were a more varied bunch back during 2e; all one needs to do is to skim through the various Planescape supplements and they'll see this to be true.
Posted By: Ragitsu Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 30/09/21 02:22 AM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Look, bottom line is, it can't hurt to offer more elvish models. Just don't take away the ones we have or lock them out just because you chose elf.

Seriously, I still don't get the fuss about elves not being elfish enough. Take us humans. Are we all one skin tone, one body type? Do we all have pointy noses or all flat noses? Are we all tall, or all short?

No. So why can't elves also be diverse? Must all sun elves have the same skin tones with "fey" features? Can't some have pudgy noses?

Oh wait. It's because race means that you belong to a certain genetic pool. If you saw an oriental person, and they said they were full-blooded African, that would make no sense. Why? Because both descended from two different ancestral lines, forming different genetic pools. An African would not have the same characteristics as an Asian and vice versa unless they intermarried.

So the same should be true for elves, dwarves, humans, etc. An elf should not have a pudgy nose like a dwarf because it's simply not in their bloodlines. They aren't typically huge, like Halsin, because genetically, that's not a thing.

But then... Sometimes nature happens. A man with short parents is super tall. A woman with who are blond has dark hair.

So, I say that yes, there should be more elfish models, but not all elves need to be elfish. Some can look like pretty humans with pointy ears. Halsin is also fine as an exception. Maybe there's some human blood mingled in there distantly. Who knows?

Oh! Speaking of which, why can't WE create characters with Halsin's body type? The model's there! 😠

Ya'll know my stance by now: the base elf ought to fall within a certain range of features unique to Corellon's kids while outliers (e.g. the elf with a human ancestor or the elf that comes from an unusually muscular lineage of elves) are allowed go beyond the bounds here and there. What I think bothers me most is a game set in the Forgotten Realms featuring atypical elves that look primarily human...as the norm; once a standard elf shows up, they're going to be regarded by players as something of an oddity. In other words, the peculiar becomes ordinary and the ordinary becomes peculiar.

I still wonder how different a BG3 Aerie or Jaheira is going to look compared to their original selves.
Posted By: geala Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 30/09/21 07:30 AM
Originally Posted by Ragitsu
...
Quote
With their unearthly grace and fine features, elves appear hauntingly beautiful to humans and members of many other races. They are slightly shorter than humans on average, ranging from well under 5 feet tall to just over 6 feet. They are more slender than humans, weighing only 100 to 145 pounds. Males and females are about the same height, and males are only marginally heavier than females.

Elves' coloration encompasses the normal human range and also includes skin in shades of copper, bronze, and almost bluish-white, hair of green or blue, and eyes like pools of liquid gold or silver. Elves have no facial and little body hair. They favor elegant clothing in bright colors, and they enjoy simple yet lovely jewelry

The above excerpt is from the 5e PHB, mind you. Anyone even moderately interested can look at PHBs from virtually every edition in addition to FR campaign setting guides across the years and they'll see essentially the same description. Nowhere are elves simply described as "They appear as humans, but with elongated ears."

The quoted part is exactly the way I would like to have my elves, and I'm not a DnD fan.

On the other hand, why Larian should not consequently use one body for humans, dwarves, elves, tieflings, devils, goblins, (small) giants, and all the other nonsensical fantasy racial stuff anyway? Easy programming for the win. crazy
Posted By: TheOtherTed Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 30/09/21 11:21 AM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Look, bottom line is, it can't hurt to offer more elvish models. Just don't take away the ones we have or lock them out just because you chose elf.
Is anyone asking to get rid of any of the models that already exist? I hope not - there's few enough as it is.

Quote
Seriously, I still don't get the fuss about elves not being elfish enough. Take us humans. Are we all one skin tone, one body type? Do we all have pointy noses or all flat noses? Are we all tall, or all short?

No. So why can't elves also be diverse? Must all sun elves have the same skin tones with "fey" features? Can't some have pudgy noses?
This argument is a non-starter. Yes, there is diversity among modern humans - but few if any of us would be mistaken for Neanderthals with big foreheads, in spite of our close relation and shared genes.

Elves, Dwarves, Halflings, Humans, etc. are of different "kinds" (a pre-modern idea perfectly suitable for a high fantasy setting) with different origins, and while there may be wide diversity within each group, no one is going to mistake a pudgy-nosed Elf for a Dwarf or a dashingly handsome Halfling for a Human.
Posted By: timebean Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 30/09/21 12:21 PM
An example — There is high phenotypic diversity among horses, and thus very different breeds of horses with unique traits. So yes…they can look very different even though they are all horses. But a horse is not a donkey. Sure, they can mate…but no one would ever confuse a horse and a donkey.

I think of mythical races like that. Drow elves and wood elves and whatever other elves are different horse breeds. Humans are different Donkey breeds. Etc.

But maybe different species is an unfair comparison for mythical races. Another example….dogs. Lets say all the humanoids are like dogs. Gnomes are shitzus, humans are dobermans, elves are poodles, halflings are dashunds….whatever. Are you seriously telling me those breeds look the same? They can all interbreed, they are all dogs, they all pkay together in the park. Each breed has within -breed phenotypic diversity (ie, I can pick my overweight shitzu with the spotted nose out of any crowd). But even a child can see the overall physical difference between a poodle and a doberman.

If artists are not talented enough to convey such subtlety when creating their versions of mythical races, I think they need to go back to art school. Plopping ears on a human face is very cheap and borders on a Halloween costume. Its pretty boring as far as artistic design goes. This is a fantasy world…where is the creativity?

If you want a human looking elf, play a half elf imho. But elves should be more distinct than tired trope of pointed ears.

But whatever. Mods will get us all what we want anyway. So I am not really stressed either way.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 30/09/21 01:52 PM
I think this all goes back to just how UN-Forgotten Realms this game is. Elves are humans with pointy ears, Drow aren't Sunlight Sensitive, Phase Spiders teleport around like they all know a super version of Misty Step, Intellect Devourers don't devour intellect or use body thief or pounce on single individuals but act like standard mins flayer thugs, imps have no resistance and are easy, level 1 noob enemies, mud mephits and their allies don't have proper stats or act like they should, the First Druid of the grove is a weak level 5 noob scrub who can't handle a bunch of goblins and needs you to rescue him, even though he's supposed to be a super awesome accomplished healer and everybody acts like he's an incredible fighter who saved a bunch of tieflings on the road against a pack of gnolls all by hisself, the hobgoblin warlord isn't a hobgoblin warlord, the drow cleric of the Absolute (Minthara) is a pretty weak piece of nothing who can easily be beaten, minotaurs don't act like minotaurs, and hook horrors don't act like hook horrors or have proper stats, and everyone jumps around like super heroes and shoves people three hundred feet off cliffs.

I'd say that sums up the issue. The whole game needs some serious Forgotten Realms infused into it. Right now, it's a great game, and I love it, but it is so UN-Forgotten Realms. The more I play it and analyze it, the more I can understand why so many feel it is a DOS 3 as opposed to a Baldur's Gate 3. Story and settings say it is Baldur's Gate 3, but mechanics and models say something else.
Posted By: Ragitsu Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 01/10/21 10:29 PM
An individual here previously mentioned a particular internet personality in the context of real-life humans portraying elves. In my opinion, actor Claire Forlani - during her prime - could have pulled off a believable half-elf with only minimal cosmetic alteration.
Posted By: Ragitsu Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 03/10/21 03:43 AM
Originally Posted by Roxeus
Muy cierto me tuve que hacer un semi elfo por que tenían más características de belleza pero igual como tu dices parecen muy humanos los elfos. Esperemos que hagan cambios o tocara esperar a los modders que hagan ese cambio. por cierto como subes fotos aca ?

El juego en sí debería reflejar naturalmente estas diferencias. Los jugadores deben disfrutar de la experiencia sin esfuerzo adicional.
Posted By: Ragitsu Re: Elves are not Elven - 03/10/21 11:51 AM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Nah. I still remember the old Rankin Bass Hobbit. I can tell you, Thranduil and the elves were a bit freaky in that, but that's not how I think of elves.

I think of Dragonlance.

https://www.google.com/search?q=elv...vsn&safe=active#imgrc=1oTzaHZ5gxXRgM

https://www.google.com/search?q=elv...vsn&safe=active#imgrc=V6WruDPRVDWa-M

https://images.app.goo.gl/EGfo6F3TEEZV5bXKA

I've been collecting 2e Dragonlance material as of late and I must say that Elmore's monochromatic renditions of elves (Laurana, in particular) tend to look MUCH more elfin than his color art. Why is that?
Posted By: Ragitsu Re: Elves are not Elven - 03/10/21 12:42 PM
Originally Posted by timebean
But whatever. Mods will get us all what we want anyway. So I am not really stressed either way.

Yeah. Okay. Sure. Even so, this whole "We'll fix it with a patch/DLC/mod." attitude rubs me the wrong way.

--- --- --- ---
--- --- --- ---

Originally Posted by GM4Him
I'd say that sums up the issue. The whole game needs some serious Forgotten Realms infused into it. Right now, it's a great game, and I love it, but it is so UN-Forgotten Realms. The more I play it and analyze it, the more I can understand why so many feel it is a DOS 3 as opposed to a Baldur's Gate 3. Story and settings say it is Baldur's Gate 3, but mechanics and models say something else.

That's another thing.

There's what's popular (Tolkien elves...specifically Peter Jackson's take on Tolkien's elves) and there's what's right (D&D elves). What do you think adds a mark of distinction to a game set in a D&D IP? What is going to make the game more memorable five or ten years beyond its release? Aesthetics matter. "Little" details matter.

For heaven's sake, how did the developers miss something as basic as the sun/moon elf divide from the get-go? I had a bad feeling in my stomach when I read a specific interview a while back ->

Originally Posted by Swen Vincke
... so, the chance to do that, and to bring what basically is our RPG identity to Baldur's Gate as a franchise was an opportunity too good to resist. And so, what it will do for us... uh, what we think it will do for us is it's going to show a larger segment of people, because I think Baldur's Gate 3 will reach more people than Divinity will have done... it will show a larger segment of the population what our RPGs feel like and hopefully bring them to play our other games also.

Turns out time is only proving me correct. Using the Baldur's Gate legacy to pimp your company is a no-no in my book.
Posted By: Goldberry Re: Elves are not Elven - 03/10/21 04:08 PM
Oh, damn! I took a break and I am pleasantly surprised to see that this is still going on.

Hello everyone! I give you all a very late welcome aboard!

I wonder if anything will come out of this, namely a few new presets smile
Posted By: Tahapenes Re: Elves are not Elven - 03/10/21 10:03 PM
Originally Posted by Goldberry
Oh, damn! I took a break and I am pleasantly surprised to see that this is still going on.

Hello everyone! I give you all a very late welcome aboard!

I wonder if anything will come out of this, namely a few new presets smile

Considering there's been no changes, I doubt it. While the elven women have a couple presets that have some semblance of looking elven (more angular faces), there's still too much square jawness to a couple of the elven women models and just about all the elven men models.

The problem is, Larian is trying to use actual actors for the various presets and not making models that fit the known looks of the races in D&D.
Posted By: lilmonster Re: Elves are not Elven - 03/10/21 10:49 PM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
I think this all goes back to just how UN-Forgotten Realms this game is. Elves are humans with pointy ears, Drow aren't Sunlight Sensitive, Phase Spiders teleport around like they all know a super version of Misty Step, Intellect Devourers don't devour intellect or use body thief or pounce on single individuals but act like standard mins flayer thugs, imps have no resistance and are easy, level 1 noob enemies, mud mephits and their allies don't have proper stats or act like they should, the First Druid of the grove is a weak level 5 noob scrub who can't handle a bunch of goblins and needs you to rescue him, even though he's supposed to be a super awesome accomplished healer and everybody acts like he's an incredible fighter who saved a bunch of tieflings on the road against a pack of gnolls all by hisself, the hobgoblin warlord isn't a hobgoblin warlord, the drow cleric of the Absolute (Minthara) is a pretty weak piece of nothing who can easily be beaten, minotaurs don't act like minotaurs, and hook horrors don't act like hook horrors or have proper stats, and everyone jumps around like super heroes and shoves people three hundred feet off cliffs.

I'd say that sums up the issue. The whole game needs some serious Forgotten Realms infused into it. Right now, it's a great game, and I love it, but it is so UN-Forgotten Realms. The more I play it and analyze it, the more I can understand why so many feel it is a DOS 3 as opposed to a Baldur's Gate 3. Story and settings say it is Baldur's Gate 3, but mechanics and models say something else.

+1
Posted By: DiDiDi Re: Elves are not Elven - 03/10/21 11:05 PM
Also +1, though I have given up on this being a real Baldur's Gate / D&D / Forgotten Realms game a long time ago. Now I just hope it will turn out to be a good RPG.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Elves are not Elven - 04/10/21 03:20 PM
Originally Posted by Tahapenes
The problem is, Larian is trying to use actual actors for the various presets and not making models that fit the known looks of the races in D&D.
+1 ...

Even tho i believe they could potentialy find better ... :-/
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Elves are not Elven - 04/10/21 03:50 PM
I still think the models are great. I created a wood elf rogue female with red hair in BG3, Neverwinter 1 and 2, Neverwinter Online and Icewind Dale, and she looks the most incredible in BG3. She's barely tolerable in NW 1 and Icewind Dale, because none of the portraits they provided really fit and the models were, naturally, really basic back then, she was mildly better in NW2 and Neverwinter Online. And the same is true for Pathfinder. Only mildly okay. Solasta! No. She looked terrible. I couldn't even stand looking at her and trashed her entire character in that game. I had to go with all new characters for Solasta, because although she was one of my all-time favorites, I just couldn't stomach the model of her in that game.

So, although yes, I would say they could provide more character models that were elfish, I would say that if we really take a step back and compare the models in BG3 to other cRPGs, the elves look phenomenal.
Posted By: Ragitsu Re: Elves are not Elven - 04/10/21 10:38 PM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
She's barely tolerable in NW 1 and Icewind Dale, because none of the portraits they provided really fit

There are plenty of pictures on the internet.

Originally Posted by GM4Him
So, although yes, I would say they could provide more character models that were elfish, I would say that if we really take a step back and compare the models in BG3 to other cRPGs, the elves look phenomenal.

The humans with pointy ears looking "phenomenal" is of little consequence if you want an actual elf, yes?
Posted By: Moradin's hammer Re: Elves are not Elven - 04/10/21 10:43 PM
By the way, male faces 1 and 2 (especially 2) look conventionally elven. I would add a couple more faces similar to those 2, and a few gold shades for high elf.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Elves are not Elven - 05/10/21 08:56 AM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
I still think the models are great. I created a wood elf rogue female with red hair in BG3, Neverwinter 1 and 2, Neverwinter Online and Icewind Dale, and she looks the most incredible in BG3. She's barely tolerable in NW 1 and Icewind Dale, because none of the portraits they provided really fit and the models were, naturally, really basic back then, she was mildly better in NW2 and Neverwinter Online. And the same is true for Pathfinder. Only mildly okay. Solasta! No. She looked terrible. I couldn't even stand looking at her and trashed her entire character in that game. I had to go with all new characters for Solasta, because although she was one of my all-time favorites, I just couldn't stomach the model of her in that game.

So, although yes, I would say they could provide more character models that were elfish, I would say that if we really take a step back and compare the models in BG3 to other cRPGs, the elves look phenomenal.
This would be good post in topic where someone would clain that models in BG-3 are ugly ...

Point here is that they are wrong, and that is entirely different matter. :-/
If i send you picture of beautifull Finish woman with pale skin, blue eyes, thin lips, tiny nose and naturaly blonde hair ... she would be looking great ... but it would still be bad idea to use her as model to present how Afroamericans looks like. :-/

Same problem is here ...
Nobody was arguing that Elves are ugly in this game (maybe except Custom-PC male elves ... bcs they really are), this topic was created to tell larian that their elves re not elven (its in the name BTW)
Here is some appropriate music/ambience to have playing while perusing this thread ->

High Elves - Capital

High Elves - Day Suite

High Elves - Night

High Elves Capital - Night

Heart of the Forest

Neverwinter Wood

Hommlet

Good Vignette

Majula

Ashenvale - Music & Ambience

Eversong Woods - Music & Ambience

The Dreamgrove - Music & Ambience

Suramar - Music & Ambience

Blood Elves - Music & Ambience

The Owl

Southern Face Shrine

Melody of Lute

Secret of the Forest remix

Elven Tree City

Forest Shrine





Originally Posted by Goldberry
Oh, damn! I took a break and I am pleasantly surprised to see that this is still going on.

Hello everyone! I give you all a very late welcome aboard!

I wonder if anything will come out of this, namely a few new presets smile

Hello, Goldberry.

I felt that your efforts were worth preserving. The ultimate goal was to keep this beacon burning at least until the game is fully released. Like quite a few other folks here, I'm not expecting Larian to move mountains, but it's still good to have our voices heard; criticism shouldn't be silenced. Furthermore, people should know that game developers can do better with a cherished series.

What's funny is that I wasn't initially interested in elves when I got into this hobby; Human Clerics/Priests tended to be my "thing". However, with enough exposure to the right sort of authors (e.g., Elaine Cunningham), I came around and developed an appreciation for this faithful fey fixture of the fantasy genre. They definitely deserve a proper treatment. "We'll fix the issue with mods" is such an unsatisfying method of addressing the problem.

P.S. A few months ago, I shared some pictures of what I consider to be proper elves: Post 1 and Post 2. Do let me know if any of those examples live up to your standards.

These are amazing! laugh Michael Ghelfi is a true artist when it comes to balancing soft instrumental play with ambience. <3 I absolutely adore the fact that he often adds soft vocals, laughter and other things to make entire track feel more alive! I look forward to using his stuff in my upcoming DnD sessions! (once my adventurer group actually makes it there... x] )



Originally Posted by Ragitsu
P.S. A few months ago, I shared some pictures of what I consider to be proper elves: Post 1 and Post 2. Do let me know if any of those examples live up to your standards.

I like most of them! Definitely! I do not believe that elves necessarily have to be as alien as the Pathfinder elves (although I certainly do not mind, I like them! The only thing I am sorta displeased with is their black alien eyes. . _ . ). I just don't want them to be nothing more than human with pointy ears :< Because if they were, then half-elves and true elves would be identical. I mean, I *DEFINITELY* - even on most of the more human examples - see a clear difference between these elves and some (most) of the faces that we have ingame. *ESPECIALLY* on the male elves. Their faces are much more slender than the faces we have in BG3, and most examples that have been provided thus far have at least a slight tilt when it comes to the elven eyes.
Posted By: Demoulius Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 06/10/21 03:19 PM
I actually never considered this. The half-elf beeing more slim the the full blood elf is kind of hilarious xD

Halsin beeing an elf did throw me off a little. Theres nothing wrong about individual elves not conforming to a certain sacetic but them all lacking it is indeed kind of an issue frown
Posted By: Scribe Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 08/10/21 12:15 AM
This still hasnt been fixed or addressed?!

lol
Posted By: Slapstick Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 08/10/21 04:34 PM
+1. they did a marvelous job with Tieflings, hopefully they can make a similar effort to make elves really elvish.
Originally Posted by Dez
Originally Posted by Ragitsu
P.S. A few months ago, I shared some pictures of what I consider to be proper elves: Post 1 and Post 2. Do let me know if any of those examples live up to your standards.

I like most of them! Definitely! I do not believe that elves necessarily have to be as alien as the Pathfinder elves (although I certainly do not mind, I like them! The only thing I am sorta displeased with is their black alien eyes. . _ . ).

Yes, the Pathfinder elves - to me - aren't ideal; I wouldn't call them outright hideous, but their insectile eyes are a bit much. There is a time when one can step beyond convention, but there is also a time to stick with that which is tried and true.

Originally Posted by Dez
I just don't want them to be nothing more than human with pointy ears :< Because if they were, then half-elves and true elves would be identical. I mean, I *DEFINITELY* - even on most of the more human examples - see a clear difference between these elves and some (most) of the faces that we have ingame. *ESPECIALLY* on the male elves. Their faces are much more slender than the faces we have in BG3, and most examples that have been provided thus far have at least a slight tilt when it comes to the elven eyes.

When immersing myself in a fantasy game, I want fantastic beings to feel appropriately fantastic. Part of what makes them noteworthy is the writing (and how it reflects their psychology/cultural coloration) / acting. Inseparable - however - is their appearance. Basically, this is a package deal...if they're behaving like an elf yet do not look like one, then the conclusion I take away is "Oh, this human with tacked on elfin ears knows much about elf culture. They did their homework."
Posted By: Ragitsu Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 08/10/21 10:41 PM
Originally Posted by Demoulius
I actually never considered this. The half-elf beeing more slim the the full blood elf is kind of hilarious xD

Halsin beeing an elf did throw me off a little. Theres nothing wrong about individual elves not conforming to a certain sacetic but them all lacking it is indeed kind of an issue frown

Occam's razor: they are elf cosplayers!
Posted By: Ragitsu Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 08/10/21 11:41 PM
Originally Posted by Scribe
This still hasnt been fixed or addressed?!

lol

Maybe we oughta start a pool. Monopoly money is a-okay up.
Posted By: Dez Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 09/10/21 05:10 AM
Originally Posted by Demoulius
I actually never considered this. The half-elf beeing more slim the the full blood elf is kind of hilarious xD

Halsin beeing an elf did throw me off a little. Theres nothing wrong about individual elves not conforming to a certain sacetic but them all lacking it is indeed kind of an issue frown

Thing is, as far as I am aware, Halsin being an elf is legit - at least as long as one is willing to step outside the current version of 5e. Wild Elves are supposed to be a bit bulky. Their average weight can be as heavy as 260 lb (120 kg) and they can be as tall as 6'6" (2 meter) tall. Halsin certainly fits that description, he even matches their physical description near perfectly with the one exception being that he is wearing a proper shirt instead of using as little clothes as possible (I am not trolling, check the wiki link above x] ) and he matches the personality description as well. On top of that, Wild elves are known to favor druid / shamanism magic. And I mean, they might not be a part of 5e (... yet?), but they DO have a history in DnD and Faerun from 3e and 4e. Perhaps Halsin's presence is a sign of wild elf potentially showing up in the the future since Larian has access to insider information from WotC?

I mean, I thought wild elves were a part of 5e before I started reading up on it - so I didn't even bat an eye at Halsin being an elf. :']
Posted By: Ragitsu Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 09/10/21 05:48 AM
Originally Posted by Dez
Originally Posted by Demoulius
I actually never considered this. The half-elf beeing more slim the the full blood elf is kind of hilarious xD

Halsin beeing an elf did throw me off a little. Theres nothing wrong about individual elves not conforming to a certain sacetic but them all lacking it is indeed kind of an issue frown

Thing is, as far as I am aware, Halsin being an elf is legit - at least as long as one is willing to step outside the current version of 5e. Wild Elves are supposed to be a bit bulky. Their average weight can be as heavy as 260 lb (120 kg) and they can be as tall as 6'6" (2 meter) tall. Halsin certainly fits that description

It is technically possible, though he is an outlier in terms of physiology; he isn't representative of the average Wild Elf. However, thin or muscular, his face just doesn't fit. Both factors (i.e, the bulky build and human countenance) - working in tandem - make him look dissimilar to an elf.

Originally Posted by Dez
And I mean, they might not be a part of 5e (... yet?)

Seven years later and WOTC hasn't released a proper FRCS. Do not hold your breath...you are too young to die.
Posted By: Icelyn Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 09/10/21 11:47 AM
Originally Posted by Dez
Halsin certainly fits that description, he even matches their physical description near perfectly with the one exception being that he is wearing a proper shirt instead of using as little clothes as possible (I am not trolling, check the wiki link above x] )
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
Posted By: Demoulius Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 09/10/21 02:08 PM
Yeah I know wood-elves are more 'stocky' then other elves. But his ears aside I saw little hint that he was an actual elf. Like the OP shows nicely, the facial features seem to be missing abit.
Posted By: Ragitsu Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 10/10/21 09:45 PM
Originally Posted by Demoulius
Yeah I know wood-elves are more 'stocky' then other elves. But his ears aside I saw little hint that he was an actual elf. Like the OP shows nicely, the facial features seem to be missing abit.

Arnoldesti Schwarzelfegger.
Posted By: Ragitsu Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 12/10/21 10:02 PM
Can we at least agree that elves do not eat nachos?
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 12/10/21 10:40 PM
Originally Posted by Ragitsu
Can we at least agree that elves do not eat nachos?

Wait what! What do you mean elves don't eat nachos? If I want my elf to eat nachos, then my elf is going to nachos and I expect this game to let my elf eat nachos. It at least needs to be an option in the settings menu, just like everything else. I want options for everything! 🤣
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 13/10/21 12:36 PM
No! Nachoooooooo! I want the option.

And who likes salami anyway. Give me nachos!
Posted By: Ragitsu Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 13/10/21 12:36 PM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Originally Posted by Ragitsu
Can we at least agree that elves do not eat nachos?

Wait what! What do you mean elves don't eat nachos? If I want my elf to eat nachos, then my elf is going to nachos and I expect this game to let my elf eat nachos. It at least needs to be an option in the settings menu, just like everything else. I want options for everything! 🤣

Oh, pish posh; that pedestrian fare is better suited for dwarves or perhaps halflings. No, no...I have it on good authority from seasoned (human) scouts used to observing the sylvan folk in their natural habitat that their favorite cheese-based snack is actually fondue served with herb-infused bread. How could you possibly expect anything less?
Posted By: Ragitsu Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 13/10/21 10:37 PM
Originally Posted by Hoarfrost
Not only this but the female faces in general are very masculine...

Y'know, the elves are androgynous rpg008.
Posted By: Ragitsu Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 14/10/21 04:25 AM
Originally Posted by henbit
Thread's too long to read the whole thing but:

I think this is probably just an EA issue?

Why EA in particular?
Posted By: Eddiar Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 14/10/21 04:35 AM
Isn't this a none issue?

With mods people will be able to edit the faces to make them more elvish.
So if someone is good at 3D and is dedicated enough they can move around those jawlines and cheekbones as much as they like to make those elves.

I don't really get people here using 2 art to dictate what a 3d model that was scanned from a REAL human face is supposed to work.
Posted By: Dez Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 14/10/21 08:46 AM
Originally Posted by Ragitsu
Originally Posted by Dez
Thing is, as far as I am aware, Halsin being an elf is legit - at least as long as one is willing to step outside the current version of 5e. Wild Elves are supposed to be a bit bulky. Their average weight can be as heavy as 260 lb (120 kg) and they can be as tall as 6'6" (2 meter) tall. Halsin certainly fits that description

It is technically possible, though he is an outlier in terms of physiology; he isn't representative of the average Wild Elf. However, thin or muscular, his face just doesn't fit. Both factors (i.e, the bulky build and human countenance) - working in tandem - make him look dissimilar to an elf.

Fair enough, I could definitely agree on that his face does not match the general characteristics of the wild elves.

Originally Posted by Ragitsu
Originally Posted by Dez
And I mean, they might not be a part of 5e (... yet?)

Seven years later and WOTC hasn't released a proper FRCS. Do not hold your breath...you are too young to die.

Awwhh... Well, one can always hope! c: I'll try to not hold my breath though!

Originally Posted by Icelyn
Originally Posted by Dez
Halsin certainly fits that description, he even matches their physical description near perfectly with the one exception being that he is wearing a proper shirt instead of using as little clothes as possible (I am not trolling, check the wiki link above x] )
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

Glad to see you're still around and as hyped as always, Icelyn! <3
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 14/10/21 10:05 AM
Originally Posted by Eddiar
Isn't this a none issue?

With mods people will be able to edit the faces to make them more elvish.
So if someone is good at 3D and is dedicated enough they can move around those jawlines and cheekbones as much as they like to make those elves.

I don't really get people here using 2 art to dictate what a 3d model that was scanned from a REAL human face is supposed to work.

Some people, myself included, do not like mods.
Posted By: Ragitsu Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 14/10/21 10:55 AM
Originally Posted by Eddiar
I don't really get people here using 2 art to dictate what a 3d model that was scanned from a REAL human face is supposed to work.

It is a troubling trend...this "ink suit actor" technique (which is cheaper and easier than creating a properly modeled and animated head/face from scratch). Why? Well, basically, it gets in the way of an accurate rendering precisely because it limits developers to a human default unless they're willing to put in the effort of adjusting the baseline for a humanoid race that isn't quite the same as bog-standard homo sapiens. I'll never buy the excuse that it's too difficult to create a good-looking mien faithful to elfkind.
Posted By: Ragitsu Re: Elves are not Elven - 15/10/21 12:32 AM
Originally Posted by Imora DalSyn
[quote=ZawiszaTheBlack]Most of them look like 80s fantasy-action movie hero with square jaw and hairy chest.

Elves with hairy chests? Surely, that is a sign of the apocalypse.
Posted By: Aazo Re: Elves are not Elven - 15/10/21 02:15 AM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Originally Posted by Eddiar
Isn't this a none issue?

With mods people will be able to edit the faces to make them more elvish.
So if someone is good at 3D and is dedicated enough they can move around those jawlines and cheekbones as much as they like to make those elves.

I don't really get people here using 2 art to dictate what a 3d model that was scanned from a REAL human face is supposed to work.

Some people, myself included, do not like mods.

Exactly... we should not "NEED" to mod the game to have some basic aesthetics look correctly. I don't care for mods either.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Elves are not Elven - 15/10/21 07:01 AM
Do you remember those crazy times, when this was serious topic?
Posted By: Ragitsu Re: Elves are not Elven - 15/10/21 07:11 AM
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Do you remember those crazy times, when this was serious topic?

During their "lifespan", not every topic stays fully serious...or humorous, for that matter. That aside, during lulls in activity/attention, a modicum of levity goes a long way towards keeping the fire burning. I - personally - want to see newer opinions on this subject once the game is fully completed.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Elves are not Elven - 15/10/21 10:36 PM
Okay. I think I am going to now jump on the we need more elves that look like elves bandwagon. Maybe I just haven't created enough fully elf or dark elf characters, especially males. I just created a male dark elf sorcerer and went through the faces and thought what the heck are these? One face is kind of bloated. It truly does not look elven at all.

So 100% we need more elf options for appearances
Posted By: Caelir Re: Elves are not Elven - 15/10/21 11:39 PM
Would be great to have more elf-looking elves (my preference), or at least generally better looking ones in case they want to keep the human look.
Posted By: Ragitsu Re: Elves are not Elven - 15/10/21 11:46 PM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Okay. I think I am going to now jump on the we need more elves that look like elves bandwagon. Maybe I just haven't created enough fully elf or dark elf characters, especially males. I just created a male dark elf sorcerer and went through the faces and thought what the heck are these? One face is kind of bloated. It truly does not look elven at all.

So 100% we need more elf options for appearances

Welcome to the fold.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Elves are not Elven - 16/10/21 12:08 AM
Originally Posted by Ragitsu
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Okay. I think I am going to now jump on the we need more elves that look like elves bandwagon. Maybe I just haven't created enough fully elf or dark elf characters, especially males. I just created a male dark elf sorcerer and went through the faces and thought what the heck are these? One face is kind of bloated. It truly does not look elven at all.

So 100% we need more elf options for appearances

Welcome to the fold.

I am fully indoctrinated now. Females don't look so bad, though I agree some additional elven faces would be good, but the GUYS!

Ugh! No.
Posted By: Runebinder Re: Elves are not Elven - 16/10/21 02:19 PM
I agree with the elves needing to look more like elves, at the moment they just look like stern humans with pointy ears, for a race with ties to the fey there needs to be something more otherworldly and exotic to them. I'm guessing the preset faces comes down to mocap and having the limited choice helps with the cinematic, but I'd love to see far more options in the custom character creator where you can tweak different aspects of the face, or at the very least have more than 4 preset faces to choose from.
Posted By: Goldberry Re: Elves are not Elven - 16/10/21 10:03 PM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Okay. I think I am going to now jump on the we need more elves that look like elves bandwagon. Maybe I just haven't created enough fully elf or dark elf characters, especially males. I just created a male dark elf sorcerer and went through the faces and thought what the heck are these? One face is kind of bloated. It truly does not look elven at all.

So 100% we need more elf options for appearances

Took you a while, didn't it?

But you know what? You're welcome with open arms!

We've got coffee and cupcakes over there, help yourself!
Posted By: Sozz Re: Elves are not Elven - 16/10/21 10:20 PM
And that's why you make it 27 pages long
Posted By: Ragitsu Re: Elves are not Elven - 16/10/21 10:25 PM
Originally Posted by Sozz
And that's why you make it 27 pages long

"Your honor, the evidence is clearly overwhelming."
Posted By: Dez Re: Elves are not Elven - 17/10/21 12:33 PM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Okay. I think I am going to now jump on the we need more elves that look like elves bandwagon. Maybe I just haven't created enough fully elf or dark elf characters, especially males. I just created a male dark elf sorcerer and went through the faces and thought what the heck are these? One face is kind of bloated. It truly does not look elven at all.

So 100% we need more elf options for appearances

Welcome! We're glad to have you. :]
Posted By: Ragitsu Re: Elves are not Elven - 18/10/21 01:51 PM
The decision to smash those elf subraces together left a bad taste in my mouth. During their pursuit of simplicity, they ended up watering down some great Forgotten Realms flavor.
Posted By: Caelir Re: Elves are not Elven - 19/10/21 04:17 AM
They just went with the PHB/Sword Coast Guide or? You have options to make a High Elf, as Wood Elf and a Drow. And High Elves that look like either a Moon Elf or a Sun Elf (Wood and Wild Elf don't seem to be different in 5e anymore) in terms of skin, hair and eye colors.

The game generally seems lacking non-visual options and background information for your own character, and in comparison to what they have been doing for the companions. But visually I think you have all the options to make all the current major elf subraces in Forgotten Realms. Mechanically there is not difference between Moon and Sun Elves anyway.
Posted By: Alurvelve Re: Elves are not Elven - 19/10/21 05:46 AM
Is this where I sign on the dotted line in agreement?
Posted By: Anthraxid Re: Elves are not Elven - 20/10/21 12:44 AM
Male elves faces looking like Buzz Lightyear... damn thats a hard pill to swallow.
Posted By: Ragitsu Re: Elves are not Elven - 20/10/21 03:08 AM
Originally Posted by Alurvelve
Is this where I sign on the dotted line in agreement?

Yep. Please, use a pen.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Elves are not Elven - 20/10/21 03:13 AM
Originally Posted by Anthraxid
Male elves faces looking like Buzz Lightyear... damn thats a hard pill to swallow.

Buzz Lightyear! Yes! Especially one in particular. Ugh! I even went "Ah!" When I saw him.

When I first started posting on this thread, I had really only made female elves and thought they looked fine. I even created an elf guy using one of the first to pop up. I thought he looked a bit like Legolas, so again, no big deal.

But going through all the elf options was cringe. Please, for the love of all that is holy, give us more elf models that are truly elf.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Elves are not Elven - 20/10/21 07:29 AM
Originally Posted by Ragitsu
Originally Posted by Alurvelve
Is this where I sign on the dotted line in agreement?
Yep. Please, use a pen.
Why nobody told me that own blood is optional???
Posted By: Ragitsu Re: Elves are not Elven - 20/10/21 11:33 AM
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from co12.nevseoboi.com.ua]
[Linked Image from fandomania.com]
[Linked Image from static.tvtropes.org]
Posted By: Ragitsu Re: Elves are not Elven - 20/10/21 11:34 AM
Originally Posted by Caelir
They just went with the PHB/Sword Coast Guide or? You have options to make a High Elf, as Wood Elf and a Drow. And High Elves that look like either a Moon Elf or a Sun Elf (Wood and Wild Elf don't seem to be different in 5e anymore) in terms of skin, hair and eye colors.

The game generally seems lacking non-visual options and background information for your own character, and in comparison to what they have been doing for the companions. But visually I think you have all the options to make all the current major elf subraces in Forgotten Realms. Mechanically there is not difference between Moon and Sun Elves anyway.

Both Sun Elves and Moon Elves are technically classified as "High Elves" in some editions of D&D, but I prefer an actual separation between the two during character creation (e.g., showing "Sun Elf" or "Moon Elf" up-front on the character sheet) with an entry describing how they are both part of the "High Elves" despite their differences.
Posted By: Ragitsu Re: Elves are not Elven - 20/10/21 11:35 AM
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by Ragitsu
Originally Posted by Alurvelve
Is this where I sign on the dotted line in agreement?
Yep. Please, use a pen.
Why nobody told me that own blood is optional???

Elf blood is also acceptable, but it must come from either the signee or a willing donor.
Posted By: Ragitsu Re: Elves are not Elven - 21/10/21 01:45 PM
Originally Posted by Kallark
The half elves faces are actually my favorite ones, so if they changed that, they could just put those faces for humans, since I don’t like the current faces for humans, that’s why I keep creating half elves.

Ah. Is your avatar supposed to be a Half-Elf?
Posted By: Ragitsu Re: Elves are not Elven - 22/10/21 11:25 PM
Originally Posted by Slippery Catfish
Astarion's master Cazador looks suspiciously elf-like, but he's got facial hair - a little goatee, but still something. Elves don't grow that at all, and even at a stretch Drow males usually just grow sideburns.

Once upon a time, due to an artist's error, drow males were briefly shown to sport rather fierce mustaches.

[Linked Image from taxidermicowlbear.weebly.com]
Posted By: Ragitsu Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 24/10/21 01:44 PM
Originally Posted by Goldberry
I don't feel the need to see my features represented in a non-human folk from a fantasy land. Elves are not supposed to be human.

That's part of the fun/experience, yes. Elves are like that old leather jacket you favor: well-established and comfortable.
Posted By: Caelir Re: Elves are not Elven - 25/10/21 05:14 AM
Originally Posted by Ragitsu
Originally Posted by Caelir
They just went with the PHB/Sword Coast Guide or? You have options to make a High Elf, as Wood Elf and a Drow. And High Elves that look like either a Moon Elf or a Sun Elf (Wood and Wild Elf don't seem to be different in 5e anymore) in terms of skin, hair and eye colors.

The game generally seems lacking non-visual options and background information for your own character, and in comparison to what they have been doing for the companions. But visually I think you have all the options to make all the current major elf subraces in Forgotten Realms. Mechanically there is not difference between Moon and Sun Elves anyway.

Both Sun Elves and Moon Elves are technically classified as "High Elves" in some editions of D&D, but I prefer an actual separation between the two during character creation (e.g., showing "Sun Elf" or "Moon Elf" up-front on the character sheet) with an entry describing how they are both part of the "High Elves" despite their differences.

I agree, I just meant that in this case they are just following 5e. In the end it's part of the generally lack of customization for your own character. I really enjoy this game though, just that part is sadly lacking in my view. And on top of that, I find the visual representation of the elves not great. : )
Posted By: Ragitsu Re: Elves are not Elven - 25/10/21 01:32 PM
Originally Posted by Caelir
Originally Posted by Ragitsu
Originally Posted by Caelir
They just went with the PHB/Sword Coast Guide or? You have options to make a High Elf, as Wood Elf and a Drow. And High Elves that look like either a Moon Elf or a Sun Elf (Wood and Wild Elf don't seem to be different in 5e anymore) in terms of skin, hair and eye colors.

The game generally seems lacking non-visual options and background information for your own character, and in comparison to what they have been doing for the companions. But visually I think you have all the options to make all the current major elf subraces in Forgotten Realms. Mechanically there is not difference between Moon and Sun Elves anyway.

Both Sun Elves and Moon Elves are technically classified as "High Elves" in some editions of D&D, but I prefer an actual separation between the two during character creation (e.g., showing "Sun Elf" or "Moon Elf" up-front on the character sheet) with an entry describing how they are both part of the "High Elves" despite their differences.

I agree, I just meant that in this case they are just following 5e. In the end it's part of the generally lack of customization for your own character. I really enjoy this game though, just that part is sadly lacking in my view. And on top of that, I find the visual representation of the elves not great. : )

Myself, I live for the nuance, the small details and the adherence to long-established lore. I can't simply be content with "It's a decent game"; I desire a solid Forgotten Realms game that is unabashed to be in accordance with the collective works that came long before.
Posted By: Imora DalSyn Re: Elves are not Elven - 25/10/21 07:50 PM
I just want elves to look like elves, not humans with pointy ears.
Posted By: Ragitsu Re: Elves are not Elven - 26/10/21 11:26 AM
Originally Posted by Imora DalSyn
I just want elves to look like elves, not humans with pointy ears.

Greetings. Please, take a seat (any seat) and partake of our hazelnut pie and nectar juice.
Posted By: Dez Re: Elves are not Elven - 27/10/21 03:01 AM
Originally Posted by Ragitsu
Originally Posted by Imora DalSyn
I just want elves to look like elves, not humans with pointy ears.

Greetings. Please, take a seat (any seat) and partake of our hazelnut pie and nectar juice.

I demand a reaction/like system for these kinds of comments... :<
Posted By: Ragitsu Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 28/10/21 06:50 PM
Originally Posted by Argonaut
Absolutely based.

It does my heart good to see such a sound argument backed up by evidence from all major sources, in this case 5e official material and artwork and descriptions from FRCS. And there is not much that I could add past my total support for the return to source in more way than one. I would like to acknowledge that Larian may have had noble intentions but the reality is that the changes made are not producing the results they had desired or the effects that they had hoped for and there is no shame in that. I don't believe the humanization of elves has done anything other than take away something magical and intriguing from the high fantasy genre in every dimension.

In other words: their level of geekiness was not sufficiently geeky cool.
Posted By: Ragitsu Re: Elves are not Elven - 30/10/21 10:59 AM
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Originally Posted by Dez
Originally Posted by Ragitsu
Originally Posted by Imora DalSyn
I just want elves to look like elves, not humans with pointy ears.

Greetings. Please, take a seat (any seat) and partake of our hazelnut pie and nectar juice.

I demand a reaction/like system for these kinds of comments... :<

Thanks. Incidentally, if you played an elf in my campaign, I would expect you to give your best effort.
Posted By: Ragitsu Re: Elves are not Elven - 01/11/21 06:37 PM
Originally Posted by deadsanta
modern super-aryan elves of film.

Funnily enough, Moon Elves, Wood Elves, Winged Elves, Aquatic Elves and Dark Elves all defy the "Aryan elf" stereotype. Even Sun Elves defy it to an extent...they possess bronze skin and do not possess blue eyes.
Posted By: Ragitsu Re: Elves are not Elven - 06/11/21 04:06 AM
Originally Posted by Vortex138
i will throw my $.02 here and agree with the elves not looking quite elven. The characteristics of an elf is angular features, almond shaped eyes, and a thin, elegant build. They are supposed to look almost fragile, even the fighters that rely more on dexterity than strength for their attacks. An elf will build strength, but never look like they large muscles. Kind of like getting wiry as opposed to muscular. In D&D, on average, they are slightly shorter than humans. Males being around 5'6", where females will be get to be around 5'4". Eyes tend to be very light or bright colors, mostly greens, blues, or gold. Very little rounding to the features, more sharpness. Anyway, just trying to help.

Perfect, perfect, perfect.
Originally Posted by Goldberry
Hello[...]

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[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

[Linked Image from i.pinimg.com]

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]


[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]

cool
Jaheira's BG2 face is awful, whoever photoshopped that tilted the head but did not adjust the face features, with the result that they are misaligned. One eye is at a different angle then the other and the nasal bridge moved to the left. I'd not rather have any heads like that in BG3. I've never understood why they've changed her BG1 portrait, it fit a druid/frighter.

Aerie's eyes are also at different angles, but at least her nose is in place.
I was not a fan of the BG2 portrait art. I found the color palettes garish and the figures rather poorly drawn. I would typically substitute the BG1 portrait art for Jaheira and for all the continuation companion characters who carried over into BG2. It just had better art direction and better shops for my taste.

As a Half-Elf I thought the BG1 Jaheira portrait felt more appropriate, and left more open to interpretation.

[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]

I'd also use the Icewind Dale portraits, since I found them more appealing. There is a redux of basically every BG1 NPC in IWD1. The MB peeps who did the artwork basically made it to work with BG too and assumed they'd be interchangeable. For a Half-Elf I always liked this one from IWD. Even though she's decked out more like a mage than a fighter druid, sometimes Jaheria would sport that look, mainly if I wanted a little green in the portrait lineup, since it looked a bit like the BG1 portrait. Like it was her regular gear when she's not out helping nature take the life she gave, but just sort of hanging out and watching the plants grow...

[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]

Or like this if she was just going for the plate and club clobberfest since it matched the avatar pretty well and clubs looked like maces anyway in BG2 lol

[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]

Still I think that Elves should have more looks available than just the LOTR rendition. Adding Elf ears to human heads is relatively simple. Creating a unique template for Elves called "Ancient" or "Traditional" or "Classic" I'm sure would find many fans. BG1 did not go that direction, but BG1 also had custom portraits, so you could make Xan look more like this...

[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]

than this...
[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]

Or get an Aerie going more like...

[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]

Weirdly, IWD seemed to make their Half Elves a bit more Elven than the Elves, similar to what we see in BG3. Hehe can't win em all. But they could do better I think in BG3, offering more variety in both directions.
Problematic or not, no one is going to be confusing Aerie and Baldur's Gate 2's Jaheira for humans with pointy ears smile.
That's because Jaheira looks like a drunken doppelganger. laugh
Now BG2's Viconia on the other hand could be almost mistaken for a human... wink
Originally Posted by ash elemental
That's because Jaheira looks like a drunken doppelganger. laugh
Now BG2's Viconia on the other hand could be almost mistaken for a human... wink

One Elf in Baldur's Gate 2 versus virtually every Elf/Half-Elf in Baldur's Gate? That's an improvement.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Elves are not Elven - 07/11/21 12:14 AM
My feeling is I do prefer more Tolkien style elves, some of the d&d ones kinda went to alien for me, but I think the half-elf heads should be added to the roster of elven options. Finding a good-looking male face for the Dream character amongst the male drow heads was sort of hard, they were too wizened for my preference.
Posted By: Ragitsu Re: Elves are not Elven - 07/11/21 09:09 AM
Originally Posted by SereneNight
My feeling is I do prefer more Tolkien style elves, some of the d&d ones kinda went to alien for me

I would not be surprised if that preference was cemented due to the pervasiveness/frequency of the "Tolkien elf" (aka the Humanelves) in fiction.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Elves are not Elven - 07/11/21 03:49 PM
Well, what is called Tolkien elves these days sort of predate modern fiction though. Members of the elves in various cultures were largely just beautiful humans with mysterious ways. Some were not of course.

At any rate elven variance could be easily explained with their closeness to the weave and being more fluid in shape in form although that cribs a lot from Wendy pinis elfquest.
I just wish to say that i returned to Witcher 3 recently ...
And when i get to Novigrad, i remembered this threat almost imediately. laugh

It really felt good to recognize Elf at first sight. smile
[Linked Image from 64.media.tumblr.com]
Posted By: Ragitsu Re: Elves are not Elven - 07/11/21 07:34 PM
Originally Posted by SereneNight
Well, what is called Tolkien elves these days sort of predate modern fiction though. Members of the elves in various cultures were largely just beautiful humans with mysterious ways. Some were not of course.

At any rate elven variance could be easily explained with their closeness to the weave and being more fluid in shape in form although that cribs a lot from Wendy pinis elfquest.

A (primarily) Chaotic Good race of wanderlust-stricken hedonists? Methinks more of their ancestors were knocking Boots of Elvenkind with "lowly humans" than they care to admit.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Elves are not Elven - 07/11/21 08:08 PM
LOL. Why not? They know a good thing when they see it. =-)
Posted By: Imora DalSyn Re: Elves are not Elven - 07/11/21 09:17 PM
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
I just wish to say that i returned to Witcher 3 recently ...
And when i get to Novigrad, i remembered this threat almost imediately. laugh

It really felt good to recognize Elf at first sight. smile
[Linked Image from 64.media.tumblr.com]


Or any elder scrolls game. The elves there are also very distinctive.

As are the Warcraft elves. And the Elvaan/Elezen (basically elves) from Final Fantasy.

Every depiction I've seen of elves is that they're slimmer, more angular, with slightly larger eyes. I should be able to tell the difference by silhouette.

Elf heads in this game aren't even good. Look at male elf head 3. Dude looks high af.
Posted By: Ragitsu Re: Elves are not Elven - 08/11/21 11:47 AM
Originally Posted by SereneNight
Wendy pinis elfquest.

Like so?

[Linked Image from i.pinimg.com] [Linked Image from cafans.b-cdn.net] [Linked Image from elfquest.com] [Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Originally Posted by Imora DalSyn
Elf heads in this game aren't even good. Look at male elf head 3. Dude looks high af.

I was thinking "California surfer dude".
Posted By: Imora DalSyn Re: Elves are not Elven - 08/11/21 11:51 AM
Originally Posted by Ragitsu
Originally Posted by SereneNight
Wendy pinis elfquest.

Like so?

[Linked Image from i.pinimg.com] [Linked Image from cafans.b-cdn.net] [Linked Image from elfquest.com]

Originally Posted by Imora DalSyn
Elf heads in this game aren't even good. Look at male elf head 3. Dude looks high af.

I was thinking "California surfer dude".


To be fair, I lived in California... Humboldt county specifically. All the guys there (cold water surfing is just nuts I'll tell ya) are high af.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Elves are not Elven - 08/11/21 04:31 PM
Moonshade was always a beautiful elf.

But, even in elfquest there is a ton of variance in shape, depending on the origins. Then again, they tended to have a lot of mixing given that some were able to shapeshift and interbreed with other species. (Not humans though, the Pinis were particular there were no half-humans for 'reasons.')

I sort of think that wotc borrowed some from that concept with the sex-changing and malleable elves.

Not that I mind, I like the idea. But again, I'm not bothered by the classic Tolkien elf either.
Posted By: Ragitsu Re: Elves are not Elven - 08/11/21 07:33 PM
Originally Posted by SereneNight
Not that I mind, I like the idea. But again, I'm not bothered by the classic Tolkien elf either.

Their "aesthetic"/form/physiognomy - nowadays inescapably influenced by Jackson's live-action trilogy, granted - when applied to virtually every fantasy IP outside of Tolkien's works (he gets a pass) used to be met by indifference when I took a moment to truly contemplate their appearance. Over time, that indifference has matured into a quiet antipathy; rare is the occasion when my thought process doesn't veer towards "lazy" or "uninspired". D&D could do with more distinction if it wants to stand solidly apart from one of its many inspirations and elves just so happen to be a great place to start. Tiny adjustments lead to large improvements.
Posted By: dwig Re: Elves are not Elven - 08/11/21 07:47 PM
In Tolkien elves and humans were biologically the same (no pointed ears on elves!). The difference was entirely spiritual.
Posted By: Ragitsu Re: Elves are not Elven - 08/11/21 08:22 PM
Originally Posted by SereneNight
(Not humans though, the Pinis were particular there were no half-humans for 'reasons.')

What I remember is that they followed the logic of (and I am STRONGLY paraphrasing here) "If you make an exception to the rule (i.e., Human-Elf hybrids being possible), that exception invariably becomes ubiquitous." That said, there was a one-shot/"What if?" story that featured a Half-Elf.

Originally Posted by dwig
In Tolkien elves and humans were biologically the same (no pointed ears on elves!). The difference was entirely spiritual.

A spirituality that enables Wuxia-flavored acrobatics, lightness of tread, eyes of the hawk, immortality, et cetera. Maybe I need to get religion!
Posted By: timebean Re: Elves are not Elven - 09/11/21 12:16 AM
It wasn’t spirituality. Their faces were filled with the “light of The Eldar”. It was a visible difference. One knew when they were talking an elf. They were also more slender than humans.

Now what the hell having the light of Earendil or whatever actually *looked* like is totally up to interpretation. Perhaps it was more cyberpunk than angelic! Lol
Posted By: Ragitsu Re: Elves are not Elven - 09/11/21 01:00 AM
Originally Posted by timebean
It wasn’t spirituality. Their faces were filled with the “light of The Eldar”. It was a visible difference. One knew when they were talking an elf. They were also more slender than humans.

Now what the hell having the light of Earendil or whatever actually *looked* like is totally up to interpretation. Perhaps it was more cyberpunk than angelic! Lol

All right, so they have a wicked tanning routine. Now we know why they're so eager to sail westward.
Posted By: timebean Re: Elves are not Elven - 09/11/21 01:20 AM
Ha!

Lothlorian Tanning Salon Inc.

Don’t fall into Shadow! Come bask in the light of the Eldar!
Posted By: Ragitsu Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 12/11/21 03:53 PM
Originally Posted by Zandilar
The elven faces in BG3 are, afaic, elven enough for me.

Face =/= ears.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 12/11/21 04:20 PM
Originally Posted by Ragitsu
Face =/= ears.
Ouch, right in my wish. laugh

If only we could pick ears separately from heads. frown frown frown
Posted By: Ragitsu Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 17/11/21 11:19 PM
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by Ragitsu
Face =/= ears.
Ouch, right in my wish. laugh

If only we could pick ears separately from heads. frown frown frown

"The ears...there's something about those ears."
"You're weird."
"Maybe, but at least I know what I like."
Posted By: Ragitsu Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 22/11/21 09:26 PM
Originally Posted by Argonaut
@FatePeddler
It is using the baldurs gate brand, D&D brand and FR setting. In all of these elves have a consistent description and aesthetic. Moving past that elves originate from northern mythologies. Changing this and saying it is your interpretation is creative bankruptcy. I don't remember much complaint about how elves where portrayed in their own IPs.

Awesome Argonaut hehe.
[Linked Image from c.tenor.com]

[Linked Image from c.tenor.com]
I mean, in anime, all people are elf shaped except the Armstrong family
Originally Posted by Dexai
I mean, in anime, all people are elf shaped except the Armstrong family

That depends on the era of anime, really; back in the 1980s through most of the 1990s, adults looked like adults and folks weren't universally slender. In any case, if you place Deedlit (the previously displayed anime elf) next to a human from her world, you can immediately tell the difference.
Jaheria may be an half-elf. But to me (in the BG2 version of her portrait) she looks just how I imagine elves in DnD to look like.
Originally Posted by Peranor
Jaheria may be an half-elf. But to me (in the BG2 version of her portrait) she looks just how I imagine elves in DnD to look like.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

What are the chances that Larian could do her justice? I consider that a coin toss.
The Aerie shown there in photoreal demonstrates why they need to dilate the pupils and englarge the iris relative to the white in order for a stylized anime elf face to carry. Otherwise having tilted orbitals/eyelids will make the face appear crosseyed.

I posted this image in feedback, but it's like 6 pages down now, meaning it may as well not exist, so I'll put it here too hehe....

[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]

Anyhow you can see the same effect there (albeit more subdued) with Male Elf head 3. Even a subtle tilt in the eyes has a pretty outsized effect on overall impression.

Basically if you change the eyeline from horizontal to oblique, such that the medial canthus of the tear duct is significantly lower down on the face than the lateral canthus, but don't enlarge the pupil/iris at the same time, it will always give off that crosseyed appearance.

In anime the eyes are typically like 3 times as large and set twice as far apart, which is how they can get away with it there. Even Princess Zelda still has a horizontal eyeline and round orbitals though. Once you tilt the ducts down it's hard to avoid the crosseyed thing unless the pupils/iris are pretty massive to offset.

I'm not the hugest fan of elves in that style, but if that's what they're after, the size/shape of the eyes definitely makes a difference in how appealing it's going to look.

ps. this is rough but just for the quick read... if the iris is enlarged and the pupil dilated the rest of the morphs around the eyes to make the orbitals more triangular aren't quite as pronounced, but it still carries. If they go with larger and wider set orbitals for half-elves they could do the iris/pupil at like 1.5 and then twice that for the full elves. For the ears they could do both length and angle, with the full elves having the longer and more oblique options. The rationale for larger pupils in the fantasy races makes sense with vision bonuses, elves and halflings and such. Trying to hit something in the middle for half-elves that favor their human ancestry in the looks. Right now I think all the current elven heads make fine half elves. For full elves enlarged eyes and more triangular skull options.

aerie iris at x2 dilated
[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]

Also this is an alt dark aerie I had saved on the old hd hehe... Shows eyes more at 1.5. Something like that I think would work well for a more dialed down option or for half elves too.

[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]
Black_Elk, the thoroughness of your response was appreciated. I - personally - do not need or want D&D's elves to resemble "anime"* elves. That said, Aerie is an Avariel and the Avariel are winged elves with an affinity for and possibly to birds. If someone proposed giving the Avariel somewhat larger eyes compared to standard elves (eyes which would bear a minor similarity to avian eyes), I wouldn't be opposed to that proposal.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

* On the other hand, "anime" (along with "manga") is so broad a label that I wouldn't be surprised if there were an anime/manga that features elves whose appearances are faithful to "typical" D&D elves.
[Linked Image from 64.media.tumblr.com]

[Linked Image from 64.media.tumblr.com]
Yeah for sure, I could definitely see that with the owl eyes. It's interesting when considering the LOTR elves, that like the single best performance was probably this one with Galadriel... right after the 'all shall love me and despair' line... in that sequence and heightened by the audio one of the things they do is dilate her pupils to the size of her iris and then kick in the blur for something that goes beyond human in the cast shadows. That whole scene caries the film I think as far as the elves in the depiction and seems the most fey. I capped it just to take a closer look at how the cast shadows and such gives off a more triangular vibe and more alien in the sweep. Just curious that even within the elves as human aesthetic, it worked pretty powerfully there to go with the eyes and do something there heheh

[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]
NSFW figure drawings of an Elf and Half-Elf (among the other D&D races) -> Here. I dig the earlier (late TSR-era?) inspiration in the faces; also, the builds are spot-on.

Originally Posted by Black_Elk
Yeah for sure, I could definitely see that with the owl eyes. It's interesting when considering the LOTR elves, that like the single best performance was probably this one with Galadriel... right after the 'all shall love me and despair' line... in that sequence and heightened by the audio one of the things they do is dilate her pupils to the size of her iris and then kick in the blur for something that goes beyond human in the cast shadows. That whole scene caries the film I think as far as the elves in the depiction and seems the most fey. I capped it just to take a closer look at how the cast shadows and such gives off a more triangular vibe and more alien in the sweep. Just curious that even within the elves as human aesthetic, it worked pretty powerfully there to go with the eyes and do something there heheh

[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]

That is what I call an animesque Galadriel. "Now we see you as you truly are.".
Originally Posted by Black_Elk
[...]see that with the owl eyes... [...]

Did someone say owl? laugh I like owls.
Another NSFW example -> Here. These figures are a bit more stylized for my liking, but still decent. However, I don't think the Human looks quite as fitting when compared to the Elf and Half-Elf.

Originally Posted by Dez
Originally Posted by Black_Elk
[...]see that with the owl eyes... [...]

Did someone say owl? laugh I like owls.

Just how - in a thread concerning elves - did you manage to zero in on the subject of owls confused?
Originally Posted by Ragitsu
Another NSFW example -> Here. These figures are a bit more stylized for my liking, but still decent. However, I don't think the Human looks quite as fitting when compared to the Elf and Half-Elf.

Originally Posted by Dez
Originally Posted by Black_Elk
[...]see that with the owl eyes... [...]

Did someone say owl? laugh I like owls.

Just how - in a thread concerning elves - did you manage to zero in on the subject of owls confused?

:[ I like owls...

EDIT: and while not on the subject of owls nor elves, I do believe that image you shared would be a great contribution to the Halfling-feedback forum as well.

Other than that, is the half-elf not slightly too tall by average? o.o
Originally Posted by Ragitsu
...

[Linked Image from 64.media.tumblr.com]

Just want to shout this out as a rare example of a portly elf.
I have to broadly agree with the OP that elves should stand out as more elvish, if possible.

There's one exception I explicitly want to stay in place, and that's Halsin. I have a bro-crush on him and don't want his design to change, LOL. So for his sake I guess let there be some bulky elves too.
Originally Posted by Ragitsu
Another NSFW example -> Here. These figures are a bit more stylized for my liking, but still decent. However, I don't think the Human looks quite as fitting when compared to the Elf and Half-Elf.
Body sizes and heights are quite fine here ...

But Dwarves and Half-Ocs should both be a lot more hairy. :P
As i allways said, Dwarf without a beard is not a Dwarf, females included. :P
Originally Posted by Sozz
Originally Posted by Ragitsu
...

[Linked Image from 64.media.tumblr.com]

Just want to shout this out as a rare example of a portly elf.

Absolute heresy. Everyone knows elves store excess fat in their ego
Originally Posted by Dez
EDIT: and while not on the subject of owls nor elves, I do believe that image you shared would be a great contribution to the Halfling-feedback forum as well.

Share away, if you wish.

Originally Posted by Dez
Other than that, is the half-elf not slightly too tall by average? o.o

Compared to the Human and/or Elf, yes. The more I examine those figures, the more I think that the Elf and Half-Elf are fine...in a vacuum (i.e., free of comparison to the other races).

Originally Posted by Sozz
Originally Posted by Ragitsu
...

[Linked Image from 64.media.tumblr.com]

Just want to shout this out as a rare example of a portly elf.

Few exceptions aside, they're a naturally hygienic and fit people: free from body hair, presumably free of bad body odor and rarely packing on the pounds. Usually, the deviations from expected Elf body types are the unusually tall and/or muscular specimens.

Originally Posted by Taylan
I have to broadly agree with the OP that elves should stand out as more elvish, if possible.

There's one exception I explicitly want to stay in place, and that's Halsin. I have a bro-crush on him and don't want his design to change, LOL. So for his sake I guess let there be some bulky elves too.

As long as strongmen Elves are outliers, all is fine. It makes sense that Wood/Wild Elves are most likely to produce brawny individuals.

Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by Ragitsu
Another NSFW example -> Here. These figures are a bit more stylized for my liking, but still decent. However, I don't think the Human looks quite as fitting when compared to the Elf and Half-Elf.
Body sizes and heights are quite fine here ...

Truly? I find that the Elf suffers greatly when placed next to the Dwarf; the Elf barely clears the Dwarf's height (Elves are frequently shorter than Humans, but they're clearly taller than Dwarves) and the disparity between their builds is almost comical. The other NSFW example of D&D races showcases differences, but those differences aren't nearly as exaggerated.
Originally Posted by Ragitsu
Another NSFW example -> Here. These figures are a bit more stylized for my liking, but still decent. However, I don't think the Human looks quite as fitting when compared to the Elf and Half-Elf.

Baldur's Gate is part of the Forgotten Realms setting, and elves here aren't the generic size of this chart.


Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting provides little information on height and weight for the races, except to say this (on pages 39-40):

"Most characters in the Forgotten Realms campaign setting use the normal height and weight values given on Table 6-6: Random Height and Weight in the Player's Handbook. However, elves in Faerûn are tall and thin, so all elves except drow use the human height and the half-elven weight, subtracting 10 pounds from the actual weight. Half-elves use the human height and half-elven weight entries. The emaciated gray dwarves use the dwarf entries but subtract 30 pounds from their weight result. Aasimars and tieflings use standard human height and weight, and the genasi use that as a base, although air genasi tend to be lighter, earth genasi heavier, fire genasi taller, and water genasi shorter."
Originally Posted by Seraphael
Originally Posted by Ragitsu
Another NSFW example -> Here. These figures are a bit more stylized for my liking, but still decent. However, I don't think the Human looks quite as fitting when compared to the Elf and Half-Elf.

Baldur's Gate is part of the Forgotten Realms setting, and elves here aren't the generic size of this chart.


Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting provides little information on height and weight for the races, except to say this (on pages 39-40):

"Most characters in the Forgotten Realms campaign setting use the normal height and weight values given on Table 6-6: Random Height and Weight in the Player's Handbook. However, elves in Faerûn are tall and thin, so all elves except drow use the human height and the half-elven weight, subtracting 10 pounds from the actual weight. Half-elves use the human height and half-elven weight entries. The emaciated gray dwarves use the dwarf entries but subtract 30 pounds from their weight result. Aasimars and tieflings use standard human height and weight, and the genasi use that as a base, although air genasi tend to be lighter, earth genasi heavier, fire genasi taller, and water genasi shorter."

Which edition? A shame: it seems they were trying to funnel the races around a human standard (due to laziness?) while rarely committing to hard separate statistics.
Originally Posted by Ragitsu
I find that the Elf suffers greatly when placed next to the Dwarf; the Elf barely clears the Dwarf's height (Elves are frequently shorter than Humans, but they're clearly taller than Dwarves) and the disparity between their builds is almost comical. The other NSFW example of D&D races showcases differences, but those differences aren't nearly as exaggerated.
Personaly i thought that is a Half-Elf. laugh

But yes, Dwarf is a little bigger here than it should be, but this topic is about elves so i was focusing on them. smile
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by Ragitsu
I find that the Elf suffers greatly when placed next to the Dwarf; the Elf barely clears the Dwarf's height (Elves are frequently shorter than Humans, but they're clearly taller than Dwarves) and the disparity between their builds is almost comical. The other NSFW example of D&D races showcases differences, but those differences aren't nearly as exaggerated.
Personaly i thought that is a Half-Elf. laugh

But yes, Dwarf is a little bigger here than it should be, but this topic is about elves so i was focusing on them. smile

At the end of the day, I'm simply uninterested in Humans, Elves and Half-Elves consistently portrayed as all sharing the same basic height.
Everytime I see that male elf preset with a trapezoidal prism jaw still cracks me up after all this time. A bit like the ma-hoosive hands on the smaller races, I mean they must be 30% of the body mass of gnomes.

It would be nice if an attempt was made at accurate race models but I don't see it happening. Larian did a great job in DOS2 making races different but they took a running leap backwards with BG3. At this point I think they will be trying to complete the game this side of 2030 if in 6 months a new room and a class that was technically already in the code on release is the extent of the progress. <<< This being the actual evidence of progress not conjecture and psychotic optimism.

Expectations low, very low in fact. It would be nice to be surprised but at this point BG3 is a meme to me.
[Linked Image from nme.com]

Originally Posted by Soul-Scar
Everytime I see that male elf preset with a trapezoidal prism jaw still cracks me up after all this time. A bit like the ma-hoosive hands on the smaller races, I mean they must be 30% of the body mass of gnomes.

If you are referring to the particular model I have in mind, yikes...how the hell did the developers not notice that elf looks like a stereotypical Californian surfer dude frown?

Originally Posted by Soul-Scar
It would be nice if an attempt was made at accurate race models but I don't see it happening. Larian did a great job in DOS2 making races different but they took a running leap backwards with BG3. At this point I think they will be trying to complete the game this side of 2030 if in 6 months a new room and a class that was technically already in the code on release is the extent of the progress. <<< This being the actual evidence of progress not conjecture and psychotic optimism.

Expectations low, very low in fact. It would be nice to be surprised but at this point BG3 is a meme to me.

Will mountains be moved? Will water be turned into wine? I doubt either outcome. My goal is to keep this thread alive so that we can hear from more players down the line. Still, should any positive development occur as a result of our collective critique, that will be better than the status quo.
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Lately i just cant help the feeling that this topic deevolved into cheap "post any image of elf you cand find" ... smirk
Kinda shame i liked the original purpose. -_-
I have stared at that cat's face (picture 3) for about 2 minutes, and I cannot unsee Trinket's face from episode 2 of The Legend of Vox Machina (the animation) when Trinket is glaring at Scanlan when he is heading down the stairs after telling Vex that he also has a great plan ...

I really love the style of the 4th picture though!
Originally Posted by Ragitsu
[Linked Image from i.pinimg.com]

Am I the only one who thinks it looks like the guy is walking behind/beside the horse?
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Lately i just cant help the feeling that this topic deevolved into cheap "post any image of elf you cand find" ... smirk
Kinda shame i liked the original purpose. -_-

[Linked Image from c.tenor.com]

Occasionally posting apposite artwork is preferable to dropping mere "bumps". If you have something meaningful to contribute, then, by all means...share it with the class.; the discussion is still open.

Originally Posted by Dez
I cannot unsee Trinket's face from episode 2 of The Legend of Vox Machina (the animation) when Trinket is glaring at Scanlan when he is heading down the stairs after telling Vex that he also has a great plan ...

It's all Swee...er, Greek to me confused smile.

Originally Posted by Dexai
Originally Posted by Ragitsu
[Linked Image from i.pinimg.com]

Am I the only one who thinks it looks like the guy is walking behind/beside the horse?

I can see your point-of-view if I squint (the foot free of the stirrup helps bolster that interpretation), but, once I stop, my perception of the scene immediately shifts back to "Elf astride a horse.".
Originally Posted by Dexai
Originally Posted by Ragitsu
[Linked Image from i.pinimg.com]

Am I the only one who thinks it looks like the guy is walking behind/beside the horse?

It looks like one of those "centaur disguised as a horse and rider" pics to me laugh
Originally Posted by Ragitsu
Occasionally posting apposite artwork is preferable to dropping mere "bumps".
True ...
I was more wondering about reason.

You know what i mean right?
This topic exists for 1,5 year allready ... is there really a chance that nobody from Larian noticed yet?
We dont get any response in litteraly any topic on this forum ... so wishing for that seems also false.
We were allready told that we will get more customisation options when the game comes out ...
And during that last year and half not even one model was changed ...
Also we know that Larian isnt "modeling the faces from 0" ... they are scanning regular human faces ...
And finaly, sory for saying that, but those pictures hardly adds anything to the topic ... so they basicaly are just *bump*s ... at best some of them prooves that Elves indeed somwtimes are nothing but humans with pointy ears.

Now that said dont take this as any effort to forbid you posting those im well aware that i have no desire nor the autority to do that ...
You can take it as thinking out loud.
Originally Posted by Ragitsu
I'm still curious to see what other people think on the subject.
Oh me too ...
That is why it seems sad to me that allways i see here new coments, its just "yet another picture with elf". :-/
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
We were allready told that we will get more customisation options when the game comes out ...
And during that last year and half not even one model was changed ...

Isn't BG3 still a ways off from it's final full release? Yes, my personal view on this aspect of the game's development leans towards pessimistic, but, as someone once said: "It ain't over till it's over.". By the way, even if the outcome is a foregone conclusion, my curiosity to discover what other people think on the subject is undiminished. Do they hold similar opinions? What were their observations like? For all we know, there could even be (quality) modifications in the works.

Ultimately, while I'm not enthusiastic about L's direction, I remain positive about the fan discussion.
Absolutely agree with this, and this is the ONLY reason I'm going high half-elf instead of high elf. I want a delicate male elf (see my profile picture), not Chad McLargeHuge with a jaw that could cut glass. Extremely goofy choice in my opinion, one that could be remedied by simply allowing half-elf faces on elves, or adding new faces with some diversity.
They are, but...for different reason

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Originally Posted by raburi
I want a delicate male elf (see my profile picture), not Chad McLargeHuge with a jaw that could cut glass.

[Linked Image from dhs1n389ze6jv.cloudfront.net]

grin.

Originally Posted by arion
They are, but...for different reason

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Is that from The Rings of Power?
Yes it is. To digress from the topic, I’m not surprised they went this way with the casting but it does seem to deviate from the source material. I guess you could say the same thing about Larian’s interpretation.
Originally Posted by Etruscan
Yes it is. To digress from the topic, I’m not surprised they went this way with the casting but it does seem to deviate from the source material. I guess you could say the same thing about Larian’s interpretation.

Tolkien's elves are, ah, different, but...can you imagine the head honchos of most film/television studios going out of their way to...

A) Cast (human) actors that look elfin/angular/willowy*?
B) Greenlight a significant budget for makeup and/or prosthetics designed to augment an elfin visage?
C) Greenlight a significant budget for targeted CGI that further augments the aforementioned makeup and prosthetics?

Sadly, I think accurately representing "true" elves will remain the purview of fully-animated works.

*IMO, with little outward modification, actors like Claire Forlani could quite easily play Half-Elves. These folks are out there.
While shopping for Dragon magazines, I chanced across the following issue ->

[Linked Image from pbs.twimg.com]

Ah...good old Tony DiTerlizzi; the man once again proves that he's more than just a Planescape artist.
Posted By: Ragitsu Re: Elves are not Elven - 22/02/22 05:23 AM
Originally Posted by 1varangian
Maybe the current elven heads will be available for humans after they put in the actual elven heads?

I don't usually like races looking too weird or fantastical

Do you mean "terrifying" laugh?
Posted By: Ragitsu Re: Elves are not Elven - 25/02/22 03:05 AM
[Linked Image from 66.media.tumblr.com]
Originally Posted by Ragitsu
Originally Posted by Etruscan
Yes it is. To digress from the topic, I’m not surprised they went this way with the casting but it does seem to deviate from the source material. I guess you could say the same thing about Larian’s interpretation.

Tolkien's elves are, ah, different, but...can you imagine the head honchos of most film/television studios going out of their way to...


Sadly, I think accurately representing "true" elves will remain the purview of fully-animated works.

Tolkien source material stated humans sometimes were mistaken for elves and vice versa. And actually he never described pointy ears on elves and flat out rejected it. People misquote a letter about hobbit ears to say he did. He didn't. And no not all elves are fair skinned either. That is another made up myth by certain people. SOME were. There is no doubt on that. But not all.

Tolkien even implied in writing that his fictional history implies that over time the darker skin colors became inherited traits within tribes or ethnic groups because that is what naturally happens.

People use this as proof of fair skin,
Quote
…They were a race high and beautiful the older Children of the world, and among them the
Eldar were as kings, who now are gone: the People of the Great Journey, the People of the Stars. They were tall, fair of skin and grey-eyed, though their locks were dark, save in the golden house of Finrod; and their voices had more melodies than any mortal voice that now is heard…

Yet Christopher Tolkien flat out states that text is wrong.
Quote
In the last paragraph of Appendix F as published the reference to ‘Gnomes’ was removed, and replaced by a passage explaining the use of the word Elves to translate Quendi and Eldar despite the diminishing of the English ‘word. This passage — referring to the Quendi as a whole.

Thus these words describing characters of face and hair were actually written of the Noldor only, and not of all the Eldar: indeed the Vanyar had golden hair, and it was from Finarfin’s Vanyarin mother Indis that he, and Finrod Felagund and Galadriel his children, had their golden hair that marked them out among the princes of the Noldor. But I am unable to determine how this extraordinary perversion of meaning arose.
So the text in question was referring to the Noldo only, which at the time Tolkien referred to as Gnomes. Editors of the publishers changed it incorrectly to the more broad term making it a description for all elves when it was not.
Clivehusker, I should have made it clear that everything after "Tolkien's elves are, ah, different" in my comment concerns the elves of Dungeons & Dragons (or, more specifically, most Dungeons & Dragons settings) that may be featured in any potential film based on the IP.
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Posted By: Anonymous Re: Elves are not Elven - Tel-quessir feed back ;) - 01/03/22 03:41 PM
My question is, are the elves just not physically elven enough, or are they not elven enough with enough cultural coding? From my perspective the only Elf we see regularly in BGIII is Astarion, and he's indistinguishable from a human noble.
Depends on wich parts of their culture you take under concideration ...

Elves NPCs certainly arent friendlier to other (surface) Elves ... wich i understand is one of theirs racial features. :-/
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Elves are not Elven - Tel-quessir feed back ;) - 01/03/22 04:23 PM
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Depends on wich parts of their culture you take under concideration ...

Elves NPCs certainly arent friendlier to other (surface) Elves ... wich i understand is one of theirs racial features. :-/

If you play a stereotypical elf ranger is there a difference in reactions or experience to playing a human character? I mean, aside from the meditation for sleeping which is far too long, I'm not sure what the difference is really.
Originally Posted by SereneNight
My question is, are the elves just not physically elven enough, or are they not elven enough with enough cultural coding? From my perspective the only Elf we see regularly in BGIII is Astarion, and he's indistinguishable from a human noble.

Cultural coding? That may take some time to unfold; there is still much we do not know about Larian's attempt at doing the Realms justice (even though they've fallen short in any number of areas thus far). Appearance-wise, however, these "elves" are absolutely off the mark.
Depends ...
Logicaly Humans dont get [Elf] dialogue options and Elves dont gets [Human] dialogue options (wich are BTW incredibly rare last time i checked).

Other than that ...
Cant think about any difference that isnt also some mechanics. :-/

Humans obviously dont see in the dark ...
Elves might have a problem when NPC wants to put them to sleep in dialogue. laugh
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Elves are not Elven - Tel-quessir feed back ;) - 01/03/22 04:32 PM
I think in playing an elf, I've only had it be something remarked on a couple times. I do think Minthara called me a 'fairy' and there has been a skill check or two involving nature or animals. But honestly, the elves at this point, seem pretty indistinguishable from humans.

Appearance-wise, the faces are pretty human-looking, I agree.

I remember we talked about the appearance of elves before. I Do not like the triangular faced odd elves which were quite extreme in some versions, but perhaps more along the lines of the Dragonlance elves for me. At this point, anything might be an improvement, especially the poor drow elves, who look perpetually grumpy and angry.
Drow have a diet of mainly mushrooms.

They are making themselves look grumpy so you can't see how stoned they are.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Elves are not Elven - Tel-quessir feed back ;) - 01/03/22 04:42 PM
Originally Posted by Umbra
Drow have a diet of mainly mushrooms.

They are making themselves look grumpy so you can't see how stoned they are.

LOL. That was hilarious! =-)
Originally Posted by SereneNight
I think in playing an elf, I've only had it be something remarked on a couple times. I do think Minthara called me a 'fairy' and there has been a skill check or two involving nature or animals. But honestly, the elves at this point, seem pretty indistinguishable from humans.

Appearance-wise, the faces are pretty human-looking, I agree.

I remember we talked about the appearance of elves before. I Do not like the triangular faced odd elves which were quite extreme in some versions, but perhaps more along the lines of the Dragonlance elves for me. At this point, anything might be an improvement, especially the poor drow elves, who look perpetually grumpy and angry.

When it comes to Dragonlance, I prefer this sort of elf...


...as opposed to this "elf".

[Linked Image from assets.mycast.io]

The funny thing is that all pieces are by Larry Elmore and of the same character no less; I guess he played it safe with later renditions of Laurana.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Elves are not Elven - Tel-quessir feed back ;) - 01/03/22 05:26 PM
I remember Laurana. I guess maybe his paintings aren't quite the same as his sketches. I recall liking his drawings of Gilthanas though. His elves are a bit more petite though than FR ones can be.
The big problem for me I think (and I might have mentioned this before) is that half elves and full elves are near indistinguishable in terms of appearance. The only difference is ear length. While there is some variance in the art, elves are constantly being described as being immediately recognizable from humans due to their features and that being reduced to ear size/shape is just a shame.

Personally, I'd like to see a little exaggeration with their features. The larger, inwardly angled eyes are a pretty deeply-rooted look for them even if it doesn't show up in every art piece. Would be nice to see some of those noted angular faces too. There was even that piece in one of the 3.X books IIRC that showed the proportions/angles that were used as a sort of guide for elven features. So there's certainly lot of material for Larian to go on. Plus, the dwarven, halfling, gnomish and githyanki facial models all look tweaked from their base scans to me, so it's really odd that elves stand out as just using unmodified scans.

This isn't a dig at the faces available, that they are ugly or anything-there are some great face models available to the elves. Aside for one or two though, they just don't look particularly very classically 'elven' IMO.
Originally Posted by SereneNight
I remember Laurana. I guess maybe his paintings aren't quite the same as his sketches. I recall liking his drawings of Gilthanas though. His elves are a bit more petite though than FR ones can be.

Indeed. Non-FR elves are - on average - shorter and slimmer than humans. However, I don't recall any facial differences between any setting's elves; they all ought to share the same basic physiognomy.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Elves are not Elven - Tel-quessir feed back ;) - 01/03/22 06:20 PM
I don't understand Larian on this particular issue, since Elves are quite popular with gamers.

The seladrine drow heads, for example, do sort of look like middle-aged rockers to me. Not anything wrong with that, but they all shouldn't be that way.

I don't get why the heads for Seladrine and Loth-Sworn can't be amalgamated. There isn't anything to indicate their features are particularly different than surface elves. I'm not even sure why the Loth-sworn and seladrine are different races either.
Originally Posted by SereneNight
I don't understand Larian on this particular issue, since Elves are quite popular with gamers.

The seladrine drow heads, for example, do sort of look like middle-aged rockers to me. Not anything wrong with that, but they all shouldn't be that way.

I don't get why the heads for Seladrine and Loth-Sworn can't be amalgamated. There isn't anything to indicate their features are particularly different than surface elves. I'm not even sure why the Loth-sworn and seladrine are different races either.

This is a topic where my opinion has changed in recent years. In times past, I was used to the idea of drow looking vaguely their surface cousins...but harsher/more fey; these days, the idea of drow being palette-swapped "regular" elves doesn't seem terribly outrageous.
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Eyyy! Seeing artwork with an elf and a boar is really neat. c: Most elven artwork only contains birds and felines (not that there is anything wrong with that, right Drizzt?)! laugh I want to see an elf with a huge pet lizard next! Or perhaps a dodo laugh!
Originally Posted by Ragitsu
[Linked Image from static.tvtropes.org]
Isnt that Tanis Half-Elf? O_o
Originally Posted by Dez
Eyyy! Seeing artwork with an elf and a boar is really neat. c: Most elven artwork only contains birds and felines (not that there is anything wrong with that, right Drizzt?)! laugh I want to see an elf with a huge pet lizard next! Or perhaps a dodo laugh!

If you want elves paired with lizards, chances are a Drow will fit the bill; those Underdark bastards love their giant lizard mounts.

Anyhow...I shall throw you a bone, ally of avians.

[Linked Image from i.pinimg.com]

Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by Ragitsu
[Linked Image from static.tvtropes.org]
Isnt that Tanis Half-Elf? O_o

That would be Gilthanas Kanan, brother of Laurana; he is as close to a standard D&D elf as you can get (including character development that involves him softening over time).

Below is Tanis Half-Elven.

[Linked Image from i.pinimg.com]
Originally Posted by Ragitsu
Below is Tanis Half-Elven.
And abowe aswell ... at least that is what google says. laugh

Originally Posted by Ragitsu
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Another for Dez ->

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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
And abowe aswell ... at least that is what google says. laugh

Clean-shaven Tanis? That must have been during his early days...when he was less ashamed of his Half-Elven nature.
Oh wow this thread is still going smile did Larian comment on this at all by any chance?
Originally Posted by Demoulius
Oh wow this thread is still going smile did Larian comment on this at all by any chance?

They haven't commented, as far as I am aware. Sadly, I doubt any sort of address is forthcoming.
Thats a real bummer frown

I think I saw in some places that they adressed/changed excisting models in patch notes so my hope is that they could still totally do this!
Originally Posted by Demoulius
Oh wow this thread is still going smile did Larian comment on this at all by any chance?

As far as I know they don’t tend to comment on anything. However, make a piece of Astarion fan art and they’ll be all over you 😂
I hope that the elves will receive a greater diversity of heads. I would like to have the big choice about choosing the appearance of my character. And this huge square jaw, that has this elf, at the beginning of this topic looks terrible.
Originally Posted by Demoulius
Thats a real bummer frown

I think I saw in some places that they adressed/changed excisting models in patch notes so my hope is that they could still totally do this!

Where did you read such information confused?
Originally Posted by Etruscan
Originally Posted by Demoulius
Oh wow this thread is still going smile did Larian comment on this at all by any chance?

As far as I know they don’t tend to comment on anything. However, make a piece of Astarion fan art and they’ll be all over you 😂

Well...fan art promotes the product and doesn't require any rumination/effort.
Posted By: Van'tal Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 01/05/22 06:53 PM
Originally Posted by Goldberry
Hello Larian Team,

I hope this post finds the team well and I want to offer my congratulations on the efforts of your game designers and the dreams realised with the launch of Baldur's Gate 3 early access. I eagerly look forward to testing future editions of the title and seeing the studio's completed work in a year's time.

To this end, after viewing forum posts and opinions from the game's community, I wanted to more directly convey these player's and my own concerns regarding BG3's portrayal of Elves. Many testers have found the Elf faces off-putting and unrepresentative of the Elven race long time D&D players know and appreciate (And, in many cases, love to hate!). The technical quality of the faces Larian Studios has designed are superb even at this early stage, but their lack of authenticity specifically regarding the Elves has been a disappointment.

Narrower chins and jaws, shifted, widened and slanted eyes, high and prominent cheekbones, an unsettling, inhumanly haunting beauty about them; these qualities aren't being reflected as well as they could be. Tieflings have been brought to life like never before in the artistic medium of game design and I know many of the players and fans would approve of that same life and vivid creative design breathed into Elves.

Current head models don't and shouldn't need to be done away with entirely, but it's my feeling that a not insignificant number of the community would be more enticed to try a race like Elves if they had head model choices that were closer in authenticity to the original material. I hope this has given the team ideas to consider going forward and I would be pleased to correspond further about the matter.

The first piece of feedback that I would like to offer is that, interestingly enough, all of the half elf heads look more delicate and elven than the actual elven heads.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Many of us who have always have a soft spot for elves would be very happy if we could get at least a couple of heads that look more 'traditional', that is, less human and a little more like they belong to a different race. Elves are beautiful, yes, but key words in their description are often overlooked and not given much tought. They are not described as breath-taking, or captivating, although they might be. They are described with words such as unsettling, unnerving, haunting, when it comes to their beauty. This is no casual choice of wording, it clearly states elves are simply not meant to be or feel relatable.

This sketch perfectly examples the physiology of elves; the slanted eyes, triangular/heartshaped features, sharp noses and chins, and a general 'otherly' feel that is not relatable to any of the human heritages of our world.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.pinimg.com]



One of the stances that I have encountered every so often when discussing this around the forums, is people claiming that '5E elves look just like humans in the official artwork', with none of the features that are known to older editions. I disagree with that not as an opinion but simply as a matter of fact, I've done the research around and gathered plenty of official artwork that still depicts these features, if not as prominent as it used to be:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

THIS IS ALL 5E OFFICIAL ARTWORK I gathered from the manuals. Many people act like they don't exist. You can still see the high cheekbones, the slanted eyes, the triangular shaped face, all of it is there, if not as extremely displayed as it used to in older editions. Yet none of the current heads look like this. I think we would be happy with a few heads that have this sort of traditional features, the slanted eyes per instance are entirely missing, not a single head has this key feature.

In case you do not genuinelly see the features, here you go:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Likewise, this kind of art is represented in the original Baldur's Gate games, as can be seen in Aerie's and Jaheira's portraits:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

I would like for this topic to be open to discuss not just aesthetics and appeareance but also all things elven related. I have not delved into the game deeply enough to give feedback with full confidence yet, but I have had zero meaningful interactions as an elf in the world. The few 'elven' dialog choices that have popped up have been shallow and meaningless, whereas after a quick and short lived gameplay as a drow I was presented with a lot more options (which I was surprised of, very well done there, Larian.)

Elves are also described to be tight-knit as a race, something that manifests not just psychologically or emotionally but, literally, physically, through something known as communion. In short, it is an inborn ability to share experiences, feelings, emotions and dreams with other willing elves. While I do not expect such a mechanic to be adapted in the game -cool as it might be-, it does give a hint to just how important it is for elves to be around, and acknowledged by other elves. I expected to see some special interactions with Astarion and Shadowheart as an elf player, yet there were none. Astarion, vampire or not, simply did not have a single elven trait about him other than the mechanic stats and cantrips.


Well thought out post!

Elves are a combination of the outer appearance and inner person further shaped by their culture.

Larian REALLY would benefit from a dedicated team member to sift through all the posts like this to identify the subtle details that would set their game apart and at the same time connect it to the past.

Too many nose pickers and knuckle-draggers on the dev team...they need an interior decorator!

B-A-L-A-N-C-E ....Balance.

Posted By: Ragitsu Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 02/05/22 07:42 AM
When I saw that overly-compressed fire GIF and realized the milestone that had been attained, this music came to mind...


Posted By: Archaven Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 02/05/22 02:31 PM
i concur. really hated the big face elf. honestly what is larian thinking? hope they could add more faces and i would say they should add SLIDER...
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 02/05/22 05:13 PM
Originally Posted by Archaven
and i would say they should add SLIDER...
Should or should not ...
Swen litteraly told us that there will be no sliders, repeately.
Posted By: Ragitsu Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 02/05/22 11:20 PM
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by Archaven
and i would say they should add SLIDER...
Should or should not ...
Swen litteraly told us that there will be no sliders, repeately.

Our job is to put the pressure on Larian.
Posted By: Ragitsu Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 02/05/22 11:49 PM
Whenever someone asserts that this company has done the best job anyone could do, one need only look at the vast amount of independent artists on the internet to realize that the defender is flat-out wrong.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Posted By: Archaven Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 03/05/22 05:08 AM
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by Archaven
and i would say they should add SLIDER...
Should or should not ...
Swen litteraly told us that there will be no sliders, repeately.

Swen need to admit to himself that he could make mistakes and he can be wrong. just as if everyone can make mistakes and can be wrong as well. on topic.. a jaw slider will probably fixed the issue imo? SLIDER everyone wins? folks who want man jaws go ahead.. those who want V shaped jaws would be happy.
Posted By: Magicalus Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 07/05/22 11:46 AM
Yep. Sliders. That's it.
Posted By: Ragitsu Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 07/05/22 01:18 PM
[Linked Image from bleedingcool.com]
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