Larian Studios
Hello Larian Team,

I hope this post finds the team well and I want to offer my congratulations on the efforts of your game designers and the dreams realised with the launch of Baldur's Gate 3 early access. I eagerly look forward to testing future editions of the title and seeing the studio's completed work in a year's time.

To this end, after viewing forum posts and opinions from the game's community, I wanted to more directly convey these player's and my own concerns regarding BG3's portrayal of Elves. Many testers have found the Elf faces off-putting and unrepresentative of the Elven race long time D&D players know and appreciate (And, in many cases, love to hate!). The technical quality of the faces Larian Studios has designed are superb even at this early stage, but their lack of authenticity specifically regarding the Elves has been a disappointment.

Narrower chins and jaws, shifted, widened and slanted eyes, high and prominent cheekbones, an unsettling, inhumanly haunting beauty about them; these qualities aren't being reflected as well as they could be. Tieflings have been brought to life like never before in the artistic medium of game design and I know many of the players and fans would approve of that same life and vivid creative design breathed into Elves.

Current head models don't and shouldn't need to be done away with entirely, but it's my feeling that a not insignificant number of the community would be more enticed to try a race like Elves if they had head model choices that were closer in authenticity to the original material. I hope this has given the team ideas to consider going forward and I would be pleased to correspond further about the matter.

The first piece of feedback that I would like to offer is that, interestingly enough, all of the half elf heads look more delicate and elven than the actual elven heads.

[Linked Image]

Many of us who have always have a soft spot for elves would be very happy if we could get at least a couple of heads that look more 'traditional', that is, less human and a little more like they belong to a different race. Elves are beautiful, yes, but key words in their description are often overlooked and not given much tought. They are not described as breath-taking, or captivating, although they might be. They are described with words such as unsettling, unnerving, haunting, when it comes to their beauty. This is no casual choice of wording, it clearly states elves are simply not meant to be or feel relatable.

This sketch perfectly examples the physiology of elves; the slanted eyes, triangular/heartshaped features, sharp noses and chins, and a general 'otherly' feel that is not relatable to any of the human heritages of our world.

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]



One of the stances that I have encountered every so often when discussing this around the forums, is people claiming that '5E elves look just like humans in the official artwork', with none of the features that are known to older editions. I disagree with that not as an opinion but simply as a matter of fact, I've done the research around and gathered plenty of official artwork that still depicts these features, if not as prominent as it used to be:

[Linked Image]

THIS IS ALL 5E OFFICIAL ARTWORK I gathered from the manuals. Many people act like they don't exist. You can still see the high cheekbones, the slanted eyes, the triangular shaped face, all of it is there, if not as extremely displayed as it used to in older editions. Yet none of the current heads look like this. I think we would be happy with a few heads that have this sort of traditional features, the slanted eyes per instance are entirely missing, not a single head has this key feature.

In case you do not genuinelly see the features, here you go:

[Linked Image]

Likewise, this kind of art is represented in the original Baldur's Gate games, as can be seen in Aerie's and Jaheira's portraits:

[Linked Image]

I would like for this topic to be open to discuss not just aesthetics and appeareance but also all things elven related. I have not delved into the game deeply enough to give feedback with full confidence yet, but I have had zero meaningful interactions as an elf in the world. The few 'elven' dialog choices that have popped up have been shallow and meaningless, whereas after a quick and short lived gameplay as a drow I was presented with a lot more options (which I was surprised of, very well done there, Larian.)

Elves are also described to be tight-knit as a race, something that manifests not just psychologically or emotionally but, literally, physically, through something known as communion. In short, it is an inborn ability to share experiences, feelings, emotions and dreams with other willing elves. While I do not expect such a mechanic to be adapted in the game -cool as it might be-, it does give a hint to just how important it is for elves to be around, and acknowledged by other elves. I expected to see some special interactions with Astarion and Shadowheart as an elf player, yet there were none. Astarion, vampire or not, simply did not have a single elven trait about him other than the mechanic stats and cantrips.













Posted By: Odda Re: Elven heads and Dwarven beards - 10/10/20 02:54 PM
Nothing to say about elves, as I've no interest in playing one.
While I'm happy enough with the current choice in dwarf beard, I'd definitely be delighted to see more options there...and how come I can't get the stereotypical Scots accent while I'm at it, eh?
Posted By: Kingslayer Re: Elven heads and Dwarven beards - 10/10/20 03:06 PM
Totally agree about the half-elves looking more elven. It's so striking that I'd think it was a programming error if it wasn't for the fact that Larian would've mentioned or fixed it by now.
Posted By: Zaemon Re: Elven heads and Dwarven beards - 10/10/20 03:34 PM
I wanted to start a thread about appearance variety too. I feel you guys, but my "ask" is about hairstyle. I think right now variety is deeply mainstream, I don't like goblins looking like punk modern girls. I'd like more variety that really looks like medieval hair.
Posted By: Goldberry Re: Elven heads and Dwarven beards - 11/10/20 02:26 AM
Originally Posted by Kingslayer
Totally agree about the half-elves looking more elven. It's so striking that I'd think it was a programming error if it wasn't for the fact that Larian would've mentioned or fixed it by now.


Right? I've also seen zero conflict with drow NPCs, though granted I've only crossed paths with 2. Have you seen any interesting elf-drow interaction?


Originally Posted by Zaemon
I wanted to start a thread about appearance variety too. I feel you guys, but my "ask" is about hairstyle. I think right now variety is deeply mainstream, I don't like goblins looking like punk modern girls. I'd like more variety that really looks like medieval hair.


There's a million threads about general appeareance requests. I don't mind if you post yours here though! I would like more medieval hairstyles too, specially lots of braids and woad warrior war paint.

[Linked Image]




Posted By: BrianDavion Re: Elven heads and Dwarven beards - 11/10/20 03:21 AM
I definatly think elven faces should be sharp and angular, maybe not quite as bad as the faces in the diagram but elves should definatly have sharper finer features then humans. as for dwarven beards, to be honest I assumed they where limited due to graphics issues, specificly that longer beards may have had clipping issues
Posted By: Anung un Rama Re: Elven heads and Dwarven beards - 11/10/20 03:23 AM
I absolutely agree with you. And I say more, they need to solve the clipping with dwarf characters, in every cutscene my character's face enters his chest. It completely spoils my immersion. I made a post talking about it, and I think they (Larian) can change their (dwarves) posture and add bigger, more "fixed" beards.
Posted By: golw Re: Elven heads and Dwarven beards - 11/10/20 08:37 AM
The dwarf faces are good so far, they just need to add in a large variety of beards. At least 10. I'll never get over Neverwinter Nights giving dwarves two beards. The hell. I'm not complaining about the 2 we have in BG3, since we're still in EA. I do expect a lot of beards later though.
Posted By: Uncle Lester Re: Elven heads and Dwarven beards - 11/10/20 08:43 AM
Completely agree. I should be able to say "that's an elf!" even without seeing a characters ears. Their facial features should imo be a bit outside of the human spectrum. For half-elves, one should take a look and think "hmm... either a fine-featured human or a heavy-featured elf?". Same for (half-)drow, of course.

As it is currently, the male elf head makes me think of a particularly sturdy-looking human peasant. Really, the jaw is huge! The eyes slant the opposite way, so to speak, which makes the character look somewhat... spaced out rather than keenly intelligent/of alien beauty as would be expected of an elf. (I wanted to say I was reminded of Oblivion faces, but this would be going too far...)

I would also add that I wish halflings had better proportions. They are said to be more or less like scaled-down humans in their lore, but in BG3 they are more reminiscent of real-life humans with dwarfism.
Posted By: The Drow Warlock Re: Elven heads and Dwarven beards - 11/10/20 08:55 AM
That illustration of human/half-elf/elf male and female examples is excellent! I'd love if that were followed.
Posted By: Infiltrator Re: Elven heads and Dwarven beards - 11/10/20 11:42 AM
Agreed. The elven males at least look like they mixed with orcs judging their brow.

While the graph is a nice reference point, I doubt larian will shift their design so much to follow it, I do think that they should make the pure elves the most "delicate" looking though, and ramp it up to humans, with half-elves being inbetween.

Posted By: Aengist Re: Elven heads and Dwarven beards - 11/10/20 01:39 PM
I agree, it's really ironic that male half-elfs look far more elfish than the proper elfs... Hopefully they will give us more appropriate choices in the future.
Posted By: blindhamster Re: Elven heads and Dwarven beards - 11/10/20 01:42 PM
I like some of the elf heads, male head 1 is rather good IMO, but yeah, not a huge fan of most of them.
Posted By: DumbleDorf Re: Elven heads and Dwarven beards - 11/10/20 02:11 PM
I already saw this thread and agreed with it, and was mostly repeating the same sentiment in my thread.

The issue could be entirely solved with fully customizable characters.

The main issue with most of the preset faces, elves particularly is that the cheeckbones / jaws are completely messed up, its like they just just used a random generator and picked the first bunch of passable faces.
Posted By: Anung un Rama Re: Elven heads and Dwarven beards - 11/10/20 04:27 PM
the illustrations perfectly exemplify how it should be. Larian may see this as insignificant, but in an RPG it is very important that races are represented correctly.
Posted By: Aelorin Re: Elven heads and Dwarven beards - 11/10/20 07:09 PM
+1

As I stated in another post: The elf male faces are to big and rough, and not fine and sophisticated as they should be!

I really hope they will change them more.

Posted By: ZawiszaTheBlack Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 11/10/20 07:53 PM
Male Elf faces are joke. Most of them look like 80s fantasy-action movie hero with square jaw and hairy chest. LOL
I also don't understand Asian faces, it doesn't make sense for Elves, but makes a lot of sense for humans.

On the other hand elven design of Forgotten Realms changed through years and it's closer to human (the eyes are not that slanted anymore). Ofc closer to human doesn't mean big square jaw.
By the way, did you notice that all Elves in the game are as tall as human?

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

Posted By: Rhovaniel Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 11/10/20 08:02 PM
Why not make all the heads available to all the races. I mean, they are all scanned from real-life human heads. If humans can have such variety, why not elves?
Posted By: ZawiszaTheBlack Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 11/10/20 08:11 PM
Originally Posted by Rhovaniel
Why not make all the heads available to all the races. I mean, they are all scanned from real-life human heads. If humans can have such variety, why not elves?


These are scanned faces that were later remodeled by graphic designers (you can find it in their character creation diary). There is variety (in Forgotten Realms lore), but within their racial characteristics. The same as with Chinese people who are different from each other but still share some common characteristics within their ethnic group.
Posted By: Goldberry Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 12/10/20 05:58 AM
Originally Posted by ZawiszaTheBlack
On the other hand elven design of Forgotten Realms changed through years and it's closer to human (the eyes are not that slanted anymore). Ofc closer to human doesn't mean big square jaw.


Granted the features are not as pronounced as they used to be, but they can still be found in official artwork. All of this pictures are from the 5E player's handbook:

[Linked Image]

Originally Posted by ZawiszaTheBlack
I also don't understand Asian faces, it doesn't make sense for Elves, but makes a lot of sense for humans.


I don't know whether that's Larian or WOTC's new direction, but I find it nonsensical as well. I've said this before, I'm mixed race myself yet I don't feel the need to see my features represented in a non-human folk from a fantasy land. Elves are not supposed to be human. Half elves though, you can give them a broad fan of diversity in all shapes and colours.

And yes, they're as tall and broad as humans are, same body-type. The wood elf druid is even bigger, If I recall correctly he's a giant hulk of a man.




Posted By: Slippery Catfish Re: Elven heads and Dwarven beards - 12/10/20 09:05 AM
Originally Posted by Zaemon
I wanted to start a thread about appearance variety too. I feel you guys, but my "ask" is about hairstyle. I think right now variety is deeply mainstream, I don't like goblins looking like punk modern girls. I'd like more variety that really looks like medieval hair.


Have to say I'm lukewarm towards the goblins as well. Larian is allowed creative license but they're not coming across as the pack of conniving, savage little beasties I know and love them to be in their designs. Taste is very subjective but at least I'm not the only one who seems to think so.

A thread about elven faces came up months ago that I remember pitching in on raised this very concern about the Elves looks un-Elven after a gameplay demo aired. What was said there bears repeating despite the masses of people content to have Elves just look like pretty Humans - taste is subjective, again, but good gods these are not pretty.

[Linked Image]

Wide nose, wide lips, shrunken and far-apart eyes, the feature coming vaguely close to "Elf" is the cheekbones. Drow and High Elves share face models so it doesn't matter much which I'm using.

Elves are distinctly Fey-like, slender and shorter than humans. The jaws, the chins, the facial structure is all terribly off and unrecognizable from Elves. Goldberry's diagram was even posted in the thread of months ago I mentioned, and it still illustrates brilliantly the problems with the Elven head models Larian has gone with. I've long been a fan of the studio, since the first D:OS game came out and have never taken particular issue with any of their design or artistic choices - but for something as strongly pre-established and rich in lore as forgotten realms, there does need to be that extra attention to detail to hit the nail on the head. This nail was missed and the hammer landed on the fingernail instead.
Posted By: blindhamster Re: Elven heads and Dwarven beards - 12/10/20 09:17 AM
Originally Posted by Slippery Catfish

Elves are distinctly Fey-like, slender and shorter than humans. The jaws, the chins, the facial structure is all terribly off and unrecognizable from Elves. Goldberry's diagram was even posted in the thread of months ago I mentioned, and it still illustrates brilliantly the problems with the Elven head models Larian has gone with. I've long been a fan of the studio, since the first D:OS game came out and have never taken particular issue with any of their design or artistic choices - but for something as strongly pre-established and rich in lore as forgotten realms, there does need to be that extra attention to detail to hit the nail on the head. This nail was missed and the hammer landed on the fingernail instead.


In forgotten realms, High elves are not shorter than humans, in fact they tend to be tall. Drow are supposed to be short, off hand i cant remember where wood elves fit in the height spectrum.

But i agree that elves should have generally more delicate features with more almond shaped eyes that are usually on somewhat more of an angle.


IMO, the only elf-like face the elves get is head 1, it's narrower than the rest with more angular features without being ugly.


Posted By: Goldberry Re: Elven heads and Dwarven beards - 12/10/20 09:38 AM
Originally Posted by blindhamster
In forgotten realms, High elves are not shorter than humans, in fact they tend to be tall. Drow are supposed to be short, off hand i cant remember where wood elves fit in the height spectrum.


They are shorter in other editions, but 5E (the one BG3 is based off) they are around the same height I think. Drow are definitely shorter.


Originally Posted by Slippery Catfish
Goldberry's diagram was even posted in the thread of months ago I mentioned, and it still illustrates brilliantly the problems with the Elven head models Larian has gone with.


Thank you! For clarification though, it's not 'mine', I just ripped it from a player's handbook manual smile
Posted By: blindhamster Re: Elven heads and Dwarven beards - 12/10/20 09:56 AM
Originally Posted by Goldberry
Originally Posted by blindhamster
In forgotten realms, High elves are not shorter than humans, in fact they tend to be tall. Drow are supposed to be short, off hand i cant remember where wood elves fit in the height spectrum.


They are shorter in other editions, but 5E (the one BG3 is based off) they are around the same height I think. Drow are definitely shorter.


Originally Posted by Slippery Catfish
Goldberry's diagram was even posted in the thread of months ago I mentioned, and it still illustrates brilliantly the problems with the Elven head models Larian has gone with.


Thank you! For clarification though, it's not 'mine', I just ripped it from a player's handbook manual smile



actually again no, even in 3.5 and 4e, high elves (sun and moon elves at least) have always been human height. 4'10" +2d10 was the sun and moon elf height in 3.5 and 3e, which was the same as humans, Eladrin in 4e (which is what sun and moon elves got lumped into) were between 5'5" and 6'1", so in 4e they were marginally shorter but able to be as tall as typical humans at around 6' and in 5e, sun and moon elves are high elves and the same height as humans. 5e has high elves as 4'6"+2d10 and humans as 4'8"+2d10. So again pretty similar in height.

I guess you can argue elves are shorter still in 4 and 5e, but not noticeably so. Whereas in greyhawk and i think a few other D&D settings, elves were traditionally a lot shorter than humans.
Posted By: WarBaby2 Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 12/10/20 11:06 AM
Originally Posted by Goldberry
Originally Posted by ZawiszaTheBlack
On the other hand elven design of Forgotten Realms changed through years and it's closer to human (the eyes are not that slanted anymore). Ofc closer to human doesn't mean big square jaw.


Granted the features are not as pronounced as they used to be, but they can still be found in official artwork. All of this pictures are from the 5E player's handbook:

[Linked Image]

Originally Posted by ZawiszaTheBlack
I also don't understand Asian faces, it doesn't make sense for Elves, but makes a lot of sense for humans.


I don't know whether that's Larian or WOTC's new direction, but I find it nonsensical as well. I've said this before, I'm mixed race myself yet I don't feel the need to see my features represented in a non-human folk from a fantasy land. Elves are not supposed to be human. Half elves though, you can give them a broad fan of diversity in all shapes and colours.

And yes, they're as tall and broad as humans are, same body-type. The wood elf druid is even bigger, If I recall correctly he's a giant hulk of a man.


Well, Wood/Green Elves and Wild Elves (not in the game), should be broader/more muscular and slightly shorter then Moon and Sun Elves... but still, not going off human figures, but elven ones. They also should have more "robust" faces... wider jaws and noses, more facial hair (no beards, obviously, but sideburns and thicker brows). Asian features though? Nope... elven features are, well elven. They shouldn't have an equivalent in human races. Just as dwarven faces are slightly "off", with being too broad and wide, and have far too big noses, compared to humans, elven faces have a structure not found in any human ethnicity either. Especially the eyes. Elven eyes are supposed to be almond shaped and angled, yes, but also very large, not slanted at all.

Actually, looking at the facen in game right now, I think they could even be morphed to fit the general triangle/arrow head shape they should have. Elongate them a bit, angle the eyes and brows, slim down the noses and clean up the skin (even male elven skin is more delicate/smaller pored than human skin). It could work. Also, the hair: It should have a softer texture too it.

...a few axamples from my sidel:

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]
Posted By: DumbleDorf Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 12/10/20 12:53 PM
I'm pretty sure I already said it all summarised as 'You can make better looking characters in Oblivion'.

Because the point is that by current standards, Oblivion actually had very atrocious character models and it didn't age well at all, yet somehow BG3 manages to still be worse in 2020.

The small pick of default faces pretty much all look the same. Select a beard then switch through each face and you can barely see any difference at all. They are not sufficient to meet each player's choices or desires in how they want their character to look.

A fully customisable character creation engine like in Oblivion and Skyrim should pretty much be a mandatory requirement for new AAA RPGs.
Posted By: Goldberry Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 12/10/20 01:01 PM
A little bit off topic, but it still concerns elves, so I'm going to ask around here since you guys seem like-minded. I decided to make a second play-through maining a drow, and going the full evil route. It's going better than I expected, you do get some drow interactions (whereas I didn't get any at all as a high elf, anywhere, with anyone, it was kind of disappointing)

And then I met Kagha. Who expresses appreciation for a drow :| ...What... Happened there? Why? Drow and surface elves are supposed to hate each other. Is there a reason regarding Kagha specifically?
Posted By: Imryll Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 12/10/20 02:38 PM
+1 Even the half-elf faces could stand to be a little narrower--or at least there should be the option of creating a less "hearty" looking character. I think my wood elf ranger is pretty (at least when weird things aren't going on with hair sprouting out of her helm), but there's no touch of the ethereal in her appearance. I think the current faces are more or less OK as options, but we should have the choice of making a more delicate-appearing elf.
Posted By: Slippery Catfish Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 12/10/20 11:26 PM
Originally Posted by Goldberry
A little bit off topic, but it still concerns elves, so I'm going to ask around here since you guys seem like-minded. I decided to make a second play-through maining a drow, and going the full evil route. It's going better than I expected, you do get some drow interactions (whereas I didn't get any at all as a high elf, anywhere, with anyone, it was kind of disappointing)

And then I met Kagha. Who expresses appreciation for a drow :| ...What... Happened there? Why? Drow and surface elves are supposed to hate each other. Is there a reason regarding Kagha specifically?


What I managed to interpret from this interaction was that she appreciates how Drow... protect their own? You know. The society of backstabbers where trust is death. At least they do band together against the 'lesser' races and mostly agree on that. Or it could be the Drow's infamous ruthlessness.

The lack of Drow to High Elf interaction and vice versa is something I hope Larian will catch on to, though having a completely antagonistic and hostile play through for a Lolth Sworn Drow would be a hard thing to manage with all the rewriting probably required. Just things here and there, present but not overbearing, would be nice.

Originally Posted by blindhamster
Originally Posted by Slippery Catfish

Elves are distinctly Fey-like, slender and shorter than humans. The jaws, the chins, the facial structure is all terribly off and unrecognizable from Elves. Goldberry's diagram was even posted in the thread of months ago I mentioned, and it still illustrates brilliantly the problems with the Elven head models Larian has gone with. I've long been a fan of the studio, since the first D:OS game came out and have never taken particular issue with any of their design or artistic choices - but for something as strongly pre-established and rich in lore as forgotten realms, there does need to be that extra attention to detail to hit the nail on the head. This nail was missed and the hammer landed on the fingernail instead.


In forgotten realms, High elves are not shorter than humans, in fact they tend to be tall. Drow are supposed to be short, off hand i cant remember where wood elves fit in the height spectrum.

But i agree that elves should have generally more delicate features with more almond shaped eyes that are usually on somewhat more of an angle.


IMO, the only elf-like face the elves get is head 1, it's narrower than the rest with more angular features without being ugly.




Appreciate the correction, I'm very used to playing and talking in circles like nwn1.
Posted By: TravelingBuddha Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 12/10/20 11:45 PM
I want my elves to be beautiful, emaciated twinks. Not whatever they are now.
Posted By: DumbleDorf Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 12/10/20 11:47 PM
The only Wood elf face I found passable was the second one, tat I'm now trying for a Ranger playthrough.

All the Halfling faces on the other hand made me cry.
Posted By: TwilightRogue Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 13/10/20 03:49 AM
Yes I agree.
The full elves should be the more alien and angular, or along the lines of "strangely pretty" but for now the half elf males actually look better. However, the half elves are stuck with body hair we can't edit.
This definitely needs to change, even a simple solution like allowing full and half elves to use both sets of head shapes, and allowing a toggle for body hair. More options for body type (thickness of limbs and waist, muscle tone texture) would be very welcome.
Posted By: AnonySimon Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 13/10/20 10:48 AM
I agree that currently the half-elf faces look more elven than the elf faces in BG3. I want my elves to have angular faces and distinctly slanted eyes.
Posted By: Ixal Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 13/10/20 04:30 PM
D&D, and sadly most of the derived fantasy works, treat the common fantasy races as nothing more than humans with funny ears. So I am all for giving them distinct, nonhuman features.
And don't stop with elves. Dwarves, Halflings and Gnomes should also have faces which visibly differs from humans so you can see which races it is just by looking at the portrait instead of having to see how large they are.
Posted By: WarBaby2 Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 13/10/20 04:37 PM
Originally Posted by Ixal
D&D, and sadly most of the derived fantasy works, treat the common fantasy races as nothing more than humans with funny ears. So I am all for giving them distinct, nonhuman features.
And don't stop with elves. Dwarves, Halflings and Gnomes should also have faces which visibly differs from humans so you can see which races it is just by looking at the portrait instead of having to see how large they are.


Not really... I think this extreme humanization of non-human races mostly stems from movies (like the LotR series) and, above all else, video games... as long as they only existed in written or illustration form, this trend wasn't nearly as pronounced.
Posted By: Moirnelithe Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 13/10/20 04:46 PM
More classic elven features would be appreciated. Elves as a race are generally seen as extraordinarily beautiful and ethereal. I found only one of the female heads to be somewhat (but not really) meeting that criterium. Elves are not humans with pointy ears slapped on. They don't have broad features but delicate ones. Some of the heads are distinctly missing the mark, which in itself is fine. No need to remove them. But please add more choices. There should be a range of classic elven heads to choose from. Right now that range is simply not sufficient.
Posted By: Goldberry Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 13/10/20 04:49 PM
Originally Posted by WarBaby2

Not really... I think this extreme humanization of non-human races mostly stems from movies (like the LotR series) and, above all else, video games... as long as they only existed in written or illustration form, this trend wasn't nearly as pronounced.


True. The manuals do an excellent job at giving elves a lot of nuance. They go into a lot of detail about their ways, their culture, their economy, their dressing, their diet, their emotion, psychology, daily rituals and a lot more. It is the adaptations that fail to represent those things. I suspect elves are simply a niche, and only us, friendless psychopaths obsessed with the race for one reason or another, only care for all of that :'D
Posted By: Seraphael Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 13/10/20 05:17 PM
I agree with the criticism here. I'm replaying Dragon Age Inquisition with Bioware's butchered elves...I would hate for Larian to do a repeat of their soddy work.
Posted By: Dark_Ansem Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 13/10/20 05:39 PM
Originally Posted by Seraphael
I agree with the criticism here. I'm replaying Dragon Age Inquisition with Bioware's butchered elves...I would hate for Larian to do a repeat of their soddy work.


Not butchered - but defeated. And for good reason. Also, ungodly powerful beyond the veil.
Posted By: deadsanta Re: Elves are not Elven - 13/10/20 06:06 PM
Historically, elves look like all sorts of variations of the human form, mixed with human features. Tolkien's elves were just stretched out a bit but folks who saw the early Hobbit and LOTR animated films in the 70's recall how different they looked from modern super-aryan elves of film. From the early 20th and late 19th centuries they looked more like what we think of as goblins, or tiny children with odd animal features. Basically, an elf can look like whatever you want it to look like, it's all fair game, since it's all folktales, and the DnD art I've seen runs the gamut from traditional folk art to just people with pointy ears. This is a pointless thread IMO. rackham elf

Posted By: WarBaby2 Re: Elves are not Elven - 13/10/20 06:30 PM
Originally Posted by deadsanta
Historically, elves look like all sorts of variations of the human form, mixed with human features. Tolkien's elves were just stretched out a bit but folks who saw the early Hobbit and LOTR animated films in the 70's recall how different they looked from modern super-aryan elves of film. From the early 20th and late 19th centuries they looked more like what we think of as goblins, or tiny children with odd animal features. Basically, an elf can look like whatever you want it to look like, it's all fair game, since it's all folktales, and the DnD art I've seen runs the gamut from traditional folk art to just people with pointy ears. This is a pointless thread IMO. [url=https://nt.global.ssl.fastly.net/images/1431823201067-rackhamheaderimage.jpg?width=1920&auto=webp&crop=16:7]rackham elf[/url


Also, true, but these are Realms (D&D) elves we are talking about, and they have been very thoroughly described and illustrated for abour 30 years now, and one of the biggest reasons why they don't just look "like beautiful humans" is, that they are literally alien to Abeir Toril... like dwarves, they have no genetic ancestry with the planet's native humans, hence why they only vaguely resemble them, at most.

Contrary to, for instance, LotR, where the ancient Elves basically originated all intelligent live... even Orks and Goblins.
Posted By: Arideya Re: Elves are not Elven - 13/10/20 06:30 PM
I do like "traditional" FR looking elves - shorter, leaner, alien eyes, longer slimmer faces etc, but lets be honest - FR elven designs used to be transformed caucasian features. There is no reason why you could not take asian features and transform them the same way as you did caucasian, it will just add more variety. Use asian features and make the face longer and eyes larger and more slanted towards the nose and you have an elf that is asian-looking. Also as someone said earlier here, Wood Elves do have wider features in general and are stockier.
Posted By: Goldberry Re: Elves are not Elven - 13/10/20 06:46 PM
Originally Posted by WarBaby2
Also, true, but these are Realms (D&D) elves we are talking about, and they have been very thoroughly described and illustrated for abour 30 years now, and one of the biggest reasons why they don't just look "like beautiful humans" is, that they are literally alien to Abeir Toril... like dwarves, they have no genetic ancestry with the planet's native humans, hence why they only vaguely resemble them, at most.


...Right? I don't know why some people act like the manuals have not gone in depth about this kind of things.
Posted By: Goldberry Re: Elves are not Elven - 14/10/20 02:16 PM
Bump just to announce that I've updated the main post with more information! I might still update now and then, for those interested smile
Posted By: Anung un Rama Re: Elves are not Elven - 14/10/20 02:23 PM
Originally Posted by Goldberry
Bump just to announce that I've updated the main post with more information! I might still update now and then, for those interested smile


I'm definitely interested! And I really hope that the artists in Larian will take into account the number of people who want a change in the elves to a more classic style.
Posted By: Hachina Re: Elves are not Elven - 14/10/20 03:17 PM
Originally Posted by Arideya
I do like "traditional" FR looking elves - shorter, leaner, alien eyes, longer slimmer faces etc, but lets be honest - FR elven designs used to be transformed caucasian features. There is no reason why you could not take asian features and transform them the same way as you did caucasian, it will just add more variety. Use asian features and make the face longer and eyes larger and more slanted towards the nose and you have an elf that is asian-looking. Also as someone said earlier here, Wood Elves do have wider features in general and are stockier.

+1
Posted By: KillerRabbit Re: Elves are not Elven - 14/10/20 06:25 PM
I for giving the option to do either -- keep the existing head but include some heads with the more angular looks and otherworldly feel.
Posted By: Zeraman Re: Elves are not Elven - 14/10/20 06:35 PM
Even if the more elvish look isn't doable for facial animation reasons, etc., I don't think elves and and humans should share the face presets. It's even more funny when you notice that while elves and humans have identical faces, the half-elves don't share the presets. I think Astarion is an ok compromise in that his face is more slender than that of an average adult man, if we could at least get the same slenderness and grace on the elf presets, I'd be content.
Posted By: blindhamster Re: Elves are not Elven - 14/10/20 06:56 PM
I think if you're going to include real world ethnicitites with elves, logically they should be tied to specific subraces. And to cloud the water a bit, High Elves cover Sun, Moon and Star Elves, whilst Wood Elves cover Wood Elves and Wild/Green Elves, Drow are drow, the seldarine drow (if basing them on the description found in the follow on series from war of the spider queen should indeed be distinct too.

High Elves should be more delicate features, more slender based on Moon and Star Elves, Sun Elves can reasonably fall into that category too. Skin colours for these would range from very pale to "bronzed". Hair colours would be pretty diverse with Blue being a thing for moon elves, Sun Elves tend toward blond, red or brown hair. Star Elves share most of their colouration with Moon Elves iirc.

Wood Elves should be a bit stockier and generally a bit more rugged looking, their skin tones would tend toward ruddier tones or browns, their hair toward darker colours as well. Eyes are still reasonably varied.

Drow should be more delicate looking than Wood Elves, but probably have a hardness to them that most High Elves do not. Their skin tones are supposed to purplish black/blueish black/brownish black/grey-blacks. their eyes are more limited in colour with almost all of them having red eyes, some rare few have unusual colours like violet or amber, but its rare, the red eyes are part of the curse Corellon put on them to make them into drow. Their hair would be varied shades of white naturally, but i guess they could dye it as dye would take well to naturally white hair.

Seldarine Drow (which should really be "Dark Elves" would be similar in colouration to Wild Elves, tending toward brown skin and darker hair, but physically resumble Drow in terms of build.
Posted By: Slippery Catfish Re: Elves are not Elven - 15/10/20 09:30 AM
Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
I for giving the option to do either -- keep the existing head but include some heads with the more angular looks and otherworldly feel.


This seems like the best compromise and the one I see the most. Keep some of the heads for the people that like them, which I personally don't understand but hey, and some closer to the material models for others.
Posted By: Sechrima Re: Elves are not Elven - 15/10/20 09:43 AM
I agree that Larian should keep the current heads but add some new ones that look like proper, otherworldly elves (and half-elves). That way they don't have to scrap any of the currently advertised companion designs like Astarion and Shadowheart. At the same time, they'll also please more discerning fans. The more human-like heads I can just pretend are elves with a bit of human ancestry or something.
Posted By: Maxximenez Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 15/10/20 10:06 AM
Your friendly reminder that the yoked AF, 7 foot tall druid Halsin is a "wood elf".

Dude looks like a cream-colored orc.
Posted By: Raflamir Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 15/10/20 10:39 AM
I'd very much like elves to look like elves.
Posted By: blindhamster Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 15/10/20 10:41 AM
Originally Posted by Sechrima
I agree that Larian should keep the current heads but add some new ones that look like proper, otherworldly elves (and half-elves). That way they don't have to scrap any of the currently advertised companion designs like Astarion and Shadowheart. At the same time, they'll also please more discerning fans. The more human-like heads I can just pretend are elves with a bit of human ancestry or something.

Shadowheart wouldn't need to change, half elves will have as much from their human side as their elven, often more. Means Half Elves can be super diverse, getting features from both ancestries. Asterion wouldn't need a massive change, he's already more slender and angular in features than almost all the currently available elf heads. minor tweaks to perhaps his eye shape and jawline would probably have him sorted.
Posted By: Sordak Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 15/10/20 11:00 AM
All of these problems are solved with sliders.

I actually agree with the OP, but i feel this is western developer-itis that larian caught from hirign too many people from the anglo sphere.
Trying to make the humanoid NPCs look too "realistic" and kind of forsaking fantasy aesthetics as a result, it doesnt usually work.
THo i gotta say BG3 NPCs at least can be attractive and ofthen do work, especialy the githyanki and tieflings, but i admit elves are a strange case.

Another can of worms is the question of ethnicity. Ive said it in another thread , i think larian spent too much time trying to get a diverse cast of actors and thus ended up with very few different actual faces per ethnicity.
Thats fine with Humans, but Elves are ultimatley based on a mixture of norse and celtic mythology and its perfectly fine to have them have caucasian features because ultimatley thats what everyone imagiens them like anyway and thus allowing for more variation within that. . I dont think youll find a lot of people that find the dryads from the withcer series fitting for the role they occupy in the setting.
its patronizing more so than anything else.
This whole thing results in people just picking one and the same face per race, this is most obvious in elves if you ask me.
I know that this particular topic is not to be blamed on Larian but on WOTC who think that having 90s style Tokenism will get them the elusive "minority target demographic", which of course it wont, becuase people buy according to their tastes and not according to their skin colour, but good luck telling that to a corporate suit whose had an overdose of california.

That beeing said, the problem with that is easily fixed if you actually allow people to edit those faces. If youve only got one asian face, thats fine if you can edit said face and end up with, gasp, more variation on it. Which is what most tripple A developers do anyway.

TL;DR: Sliders do the trick, add sliders.


First of all...
It needs to be said just how astounding the gameplay has been so far. Breathtaking graphics where detail in texture has no limit, and captivating character depth where I am certain to replay the game several times just to explore the many, many options! I was skeptical at first, as I always am, but Larian’s artists and development team have done an amazing job yet, and waiting a year to see the rest will be guaranteed torture.
However, it also brings excitement in knowing that we will be seeing more content, and hope that there will be improvements to fully utilize the game’s potential.
As there is the one thing I have been missing, which is what brought me to this thread...

Elves

Naturally, I know they exist in-game. Though in all its stunning beauty, Baldurs Gate 3 Early Access doesn’t yet have the alien features of the so lore-rich world of elves. It sounds shallow, but to me appearance is important— and with what I’ve seen thus far with the graphics, I know it must be important to other players too! Although we enjoy our eye-candy, it’s not just the exotic and odd beauty itself that compelled me to love the elven races, but rather their infinite lore. Elves are more than just humans with pointy ears and keen abilities, and it needs to show. Players need to be able to look at the elves and immediately tell that they are otherwordly beings with magical tales to tell, inviting them to explore.

The OP, Goldberry, and other members of the community have brought up many good examples on how this can be achieved! With BG3’s potential, I pray and roll with glee in hope that we will be seeing more of what makes elves the alien and captivating beings they have been and deserve to be forever more.

Thank you for bringing up this important topic, and thank you to Larian’s crew for the many enjoyable hours spent in BG3 so far.


Posted By: Zarangek Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 15/10/20 11:35 AM
Originally Posted by Uncle Lester
Completely agree. I should be able to say "that's an elf!" even without seeing a characters ears. Their facial features should imo be a bit outside of the human spectrum. For half-elves, one should take a look and think "hmm... either a fine-featured human or a heavy-featured elf?". Same for (half-)drow, of course.

As it is currently, the male elf head makes me think of a particularly sturdy-looking human peasant. Really, the jaw is huge! The eyes slant the opposite way, so to speak, which makes the character look somewhat... spaced out rather than keenly intelligent/of alien beauty as would be expected of an elf. (I wanted to say I was reminded of Oblivion faces, but this would be going too far...)

I would also add that I wish halflings had better proportions. They are said to be more or less like scaled-down humans in their lore, but in BG3 they are more reminiscent of real-life humans with dwarfism.


Well I was confused about Shadowheart being a human or elf had to examine her to tell for sure. Tieflings are what bought me in this game, I have never seen such a terrifying looking Tiefling (In a very, very good way) in a game before. My first Act 1 was for Tiefling warlock.
I have to agree Elves do not really look like Elves but my guess that is because 5th Editon say so, unfortunately.


Additionally I doubt we will receive any change in the way they look, we might get some new faces but that is it.
Posted By: Slippery Catfish Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 15/10/20 11:46 AM
Originally Posted by Maxximenez
Your friendly reminder that the yoked AF, 7 foot tall druid Halsin is a "wood elf".

Dude looks like a cream-colored orc.


He looks like a jacked up half elf to me, and even then his masculine as hell, Chad-like features shatter that. Take the point off his ears and the character is just a large human.

Whoops, I accidentally outlined the problem with BG3's elves.

Originally Posted by Zarangek

Well I was confused about Shadowheart being a human or elf had to examine her to tell for sure. Tieflings are what bought me in this game, I have never seen such a terrifying looking Tiefling (In a very, very good way) in a game before. My first Act 1 was for Tiefling warlock.
I have to agree Elves do not really look like Elves but my guess that is because 5th Editon say so, unfortunately.


5e kept Elves very elfy, excusing the changes made to Arvandor and all that business. OP put some art up on Page 1 that's all 5e material.
The Tieflings are amazingly done, seriously impressed by Larian here.
Posted By: Hoarfrost Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 15/10/20 11:47 AM
Not only this but the female faces in general are very masculine...
Posted By: Goldberry Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 15/10/20 11:48 AM
Originally Posted by Maxximenez
Your friendly reminder that the yoked AF, 7 foot tall druid Halsin is a "wood elf". Dude looks like a cream-colored orc.


Lol. Right? I must say that after finding half the grove were elves worshipping Silvanus (a human deity) and one wood elf showing admiration towards my drow character it was a relief to see that Halsin at least leaned towards neutral good, and that's all I looked at, I wanted to take the win.

Originally Posted by blindhamster
I think if you're going to include real world ethnicitites with elves, logically they should be tied to specific subraces.


I suppose that's one way to do it!

Originally Posted by Fira

Thank you for bringing up this important topic, and thank you to Larian’s crew for the many enjoyable hours spent in BG3 so far.


No, thank you. I find your post very touching. The reason I enjoy fantasy so much, is because it is an escape from reality. The least I want to encounter in a fantasy setting is anything that resembles our world, when it is supposed to be alien and magical.

Originally Posted by Zarangek
Additionally I doubt we will receive any change in the way they look, we might get some new faces but that is it.


Well that's cool! If we can get a couple of 'classic' elven looking heads, I'll take that as a win too. We can all be happy smile
Posted By: TheAscendent Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 15/10/20 01:15 PM
So does Astarion look enough like an Elf?
Posted By: blindhamster Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 15/10/20 01:34 PM
Originally Posted by TheAscendent
So does Astarion look enough like an Elf?


Responded in the other thread, and actually a few posts earlier in this one to this question.

I feel like Mods should merge the two elf threads. Kinda weird having two threads for essentially the same topic.
Posted By: nation Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 15/10/20 01:51 PM
+1

first post folks - be gentle

to throw in a related thought, and i may have missed this discussion on the forums already, but after playing around in the character creator is anyone else scratching their head wondering why Drow arent listed as another Elf subrace? I get the love that the dark elves get in the setting, but it just seems odd? Will the gray dwarves/deep gnomes also be differentiated from general dwarves/gnomes? That could be neat from an 'underdark' based race perspective, but idk it that is what larian is aiming for and it just seems like an odd game design/dev choice. Idk, along similar lines i suppose that tiefling could be grouped as planetouched along with aasimar and genasi (if we get all these options), and gith would breakdown into the githyanki, githzeri, (and maybe gith raiders?) so just thought it was odd to have drow separate from elf, but overall just a small observation from a big fan of the og bg games and dnd in general - really hoping for larian to use ea as an opportunity to make this game even better than it is currently as ive been really enjoying ea so far, but still think the game has a lot of growth potential within their current systems that we can give meaningful feedback on. thx!
Posted By: blindhamster Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 15/10/20 01:59 PM
yeah drow should just be a subrace of elf, its exactly what they are. Im assuming there are technical reasons though
Posted By: Goldberry Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 15/10/20 02:00 PM
Originally Posted by blindhamster
I feel like Mods should merge the two elf threads. Kinda weird having two threads for essentially the same topic.


No, please. This one has zero drama, lol. The other one is 8 pages, but probably 4 of which are people throwing accusations at each other. I'd very much prefer if we keep a civil conversation around here, at least being the OP I can -tryyyy- to stir people away from going off-topic and fighting.

Originally Posted by nation
+1
first post folks - be gentle


No problem, dear! Welcome to the forums smile

As for your question, I wouldn't know. Perhaps it has something to do with the scripting of the game, perhaps it has to do with the fact despite being elves, they are very, very different, far beyond a matter of subrace. I do remember in NWN2 there was a 'Planetouched' section with tieflings, genasi, and Aasimars if I recall correctly, but we do not know yet if those races will be included at all in this game. We shall wait and see.
Posted By: blindhamster Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 15/10/20 02:07 PM
Originally Posted by Goldberry
Originally Posted by blindhamster
I feel like Mods should merge the two elf threads. Kinda weird having two threads for essentially the same topic.


No, please. This one has zero drama, lol. The other one is 8 pages, but probably 4 of which people throwing accusations at each other.

Originally Posted by nation
+1
first post folks - be gentle


No problem, dear! Welcome to the forums smile

As for your question, I wouldn't know. Perhaps it has something to do with the scripting of the game, perhaps it has to do with the fact despite being elves, they are very, very different, far beyond a matter of subrace. I do remember in NWN2 there was a 'Planetouched' section with tieflings, genasi, and Aasimars if I recall correctly, but we do not know yet if those races will be included at all in this game. We shall wait and see.


D&D 5e phb has the example elf shown as Drizzt. A number of elves in the books refer to some specific drow characters as "elf", they're still elves and from a lore perspective, the only real thing that separates them is the curse put on them for their choice to follow Araushnee after her final betrayal of Corellon due to their slow manipulation by Wendonai. The Lady penitent trilogy had a bunch of drow have their curse be lifted due to them not having the mark of wendonai and their abandonment of the drow ways, similarly, at the end of the most recent drizzt book "relentless" there is another event that shows how similar they still are really. Wont say more than that due to spoilers.

I think it's just a technical thing for drow to be separate from elves - due to them wanting to have drow and basically "good drow" in BG3 for whatever reason, although IMO the seldarine drow shouldn't be called seldarine drow, they should be dark elves and not have drow colouring at all.

p.s. fair point against the merge, it's just I put a reasonably detailed rundown of the subraces for elves in the other one laugh
Posted By: Goldberry Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 15/10/20 02:15 PM
Originally Posted by blindhamster
D&D 5e phb has the example elf shown as Drizzt. A number of elves in the books refer to some specific drow characters as "elf", they're still elves and from a lore perspective, the only real thing that separates them is the curse put on them for their choice to follow Araushnee after her final betrayal of Corellon due to their slow manipulation by Wendonai. The Lady penitent trilogy had a bunch of drow have their curse be lifted due to them not having the mark of wendonai and their abandonment of the drow ways, similarly, at the end of the most recent drizzt book "relentless" there is another event that shows how similar they still are really. Wont say more than that due to spoilers.


Oh, I know they're still elves. When I describe them as 'different' I'm merely talking about their culture, their habitat, society, etc, besides the fact that they're intimate enemies. That's what I meant. The differences between drow and elves (any subrace) are more drastic than all of the elven subraces. If that makes sense? But I have no idea why the devs decided to put them in different race categories, I'm just wild guessing. I agree with you it's likely due to a technical reason.

Originally Posted by blindhamster

p.s. fair point against the merge, it's just I put a reasonably detailed rundown of the subraces for elves in the other one laugh


Feel free to post it in here as well! In fact, we can talk in private if you want so that I can add it to the first post of this thread. We can compile all official information that we have to make a stronger case smile

P.S: I also intend for this topic to be a general feedback on elves. I haven't added a lot more yet because I'm very slow with my playthrough.
Posted By: blindhamster Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 15/10/20 02:28 PM
Originally Posted by blindhamster
In Forgotten realms there are quite a few
High Elves
- Sun Elves: Regal looking, typically bronzed skin, they have hair colours of brown/red/copper/gold typically and their eyes are usually black, gold or silver
- Moon Elves: Pale skin, often with a blue or purple hue, hair colours covering all human ones plus silver and blue, their eyes are usually blue or green with gold flecks
- Star Elves: pale skin with gold, silver or red hair and tend to be particularly slender, their eyes are similar to moon elves

Wood Elves
- Copper Elves: tend to be broader and sturdier, tan or bronzed skin, copper, brown, black or golden blond hair with eyes of green, hazel or brown. Wood elves are technically one of the only races of elves native to Faerun, the reason for this is they come from intermingling of Wild Elves with other elves over many generations.
- Wild/Green Elves: tend toward darker skin tones from tanned to dark brown, usually have darker hair colour and eyes similar to copper elves.

Eladrin: Eladrin are Elves native to the feywild still, their appearance literally changes with the seasons, they look a lot like Sun Elves in terms of their regal appearance, but their hair, skin and eye colours change with the passing of each season, as does their personality.

Drow
- Lolthian Drow: Shorter than surface elves, they're graceful and regal looking, their skin is almost always shades of obsidian, purple, grey. brown or blue undertones differentiate them though, their eyes are almost always red, with violet and amber being rare exceptions, their hair is always white or off white. Their colouring is part of a curse put upon them by Corellon for their actions around the early crown wars.
- Dark Elves (Seldarine drow in this game): These drow have had Corellons curse lifted due to actions shortly before the spellplague. They have reverted to their original colourations (NOT how they're shown in the game) and look a lot like Wild/Green Elves for colouration.

Lythari: Esentially a unique non-evil breed of Elven werewolf that doesn't have a hybrid form, they're usually depicted as pale with grey or white hair both in elf and wolf form. But they're usually found in Wood Elf lands, so in theory make more sense to match their colouring to some extent.

Avariel: Winged Elves, their features are even more delicate than other elves, with eyes that are larger than most too, their eyes tend to be bright blues, greens or even purple, their skin colour isn't really described anywhere but the only art of them shown has been pale/tanned. Their hair and wings tend to be black/white/silver. Though the most well known Avariel, Aerie from BG2 has blond hair. Avariel are noted as being shorter than High or Wood elves in the same way that drow are.

Aquatic Elves: their build is probably the most sturdy of all the elves and tend to be tall. Their skin tends toward blues and greens, but sometimes browns or even silvers, their hair is usually blacks, greens, blues, browns or even red. Their eyes are usually black, blue, white, green or very rarely silver.


Regardless of the kind, they all have the angular features, almond eyes and pointed ears. None of them can grow facial hair or have body hair.

If Larian really want to include human ethnicities in the different elves, they should at least try and correlate the human ethnicities to those subraces and go from there. Right now the Elves are just /wrong/ and it's crazy because there are EXCELLENT resources available for multiple editions of D&D describing all the above.

Most notably for D&D 5e, Sword Coast Adventurers Guide which should honestly be a default inclusion for this game anyway, considering the setting.


The source for the above is Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide for 5e + Races of Faerun for 3/3.5 plus in the case of "Dark Elves" just my observations from lady penitent. smile
Posted By: Goldberry Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 15/10/20 02:36 PM
Originally Posted by blindhamster
The source for the above is Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide for 5e + Races of Faerun for 3/3.5 plus in the case of "Dark Elves" just my observations from lady penitent smile


Mmh! I do find it curious the large masses of people claiming that elves are 'white and blonde' and 'too caucasic'. Then you read the descriptions and you find out that the vast majority of them aren not actually white and blonde. There are so many possible combinations, from blues and green hues to very dark skin. Wood elves per instance are said to be the most populous of elves, and they're tan, and dark haired mostly.

On your thoughts about giving subraces ethnic hints, a random thought that occured to me was this elven depiction of 5e Player's Handbook:

[Linked Image]

She has the classic angular features, but also... Do I have a big imagination, or she kind of looks like Rihanna? :'D This is an excellent example of an ethnic looking elf, in my opinion.

[Linked Image]








I think using inspiration from African ethnic groups would work well for Wild Elves, Copper Elves would probably be more like mixed background people because Copper Elves are exactly that, a mix of Wild Elves and the other Elven types. Greek ethnic inspiration seems like a good fit for Sun Elves IMO. Moon Elves and Star Elves physically are probably the ones to give the more anglo caucasian appearance. If the were to branch out further, I'm not sure about "asian" (which is a very generic term sadly) inspiration for any of them, Eladrin might be an interesting one to consider tying a bit of Japanese influence to, considering their art in Volo's Guide. Drow would potentially fit following the same pattern as Wild Elves, considering their background as the Dark Elves were originally from the same regions as the Green/Wild Elves.

However, with all the above, I think you'd still want to:
  • adjust eyes to be more almond shaped
  • add sharper, more angled, more defined jawline and cheekbones
  • make the nose a little narrower
  • reduce chin width to accent the more angled jawline
  • increase the angle of brows slightly
  • make the face a bit more slender

Originally Posted by Goldberry
Originally Posted by blindhamster
The source for the above is Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide for 5e + Races of Faerun for 3/3.5 plus in the case of "Dark Elves" just my observations from lady penitent smile


Mmh! I do find it curious the large masses of people claiming that elves are 'white and blonde' and 'too caucasic'. Then you read the descriptions and you find out that the vast majority of them aren not actually white and blonde. There are so many possible combinations, from blues and green hues to very dark skin. Wood elves per instance are said to be the most populous of elves, and they're tan, and dark haired mostly.

On your thoughts about giving subraces ethnic hints, a random thought that occured to me was this elven depiction of 5e Player's Handbook:

[Linked Image]

She has the classic angular features, but also... Do I have a big imagination, or she kind of looks like Rihanna? :'D This is an excellent example of an ethnic looking elf, in my opinion.

[Linked Image]






Not just you. Totally looks like a Rihanna-Elf!




Originally Posted by blindhamster
I think using inspiration from African ethnic groups would work well for Wild Elves, Copper Elves would probably be more like mixed background people because Copper Elves are exactly that, a mix of Wild Elves and the other Elven types. Greek ethnic inspiration seems like a good fit for Sun Elves IMO. Moon Elves and Star Elves physically are probably the ones to give the more anglo caucasian appearance. If the were to branch out further, I'm not sure about "asian" (which is a very generic term sadly) inspiration for any of them, Eladrin might be an interesting one to consider tying a bit of Japanese influence to, considering their art in Volo's Guide. Drow would potentially fit following the same pattern as Wild Elves, considering their background as the Dark Elves were originally from the same regions as the Green/Wild Elves.

However, with all the above, I think you'd still want to:
  • adjust eyes to be more almond shaped
  • add sharper, more angled, more defined jawline and cheekbones
  • make the nose a little narrower
  • reduce chin width to accent the more angled jawline
  • increase the angle of brows slightly
  • make the face a bit more slender



I like your ideas and would be happy to see something like this in-game in the future smile
Originally Posted by Usako

Originally Posted by blindhamster
I think using inspiration from African ethnic groups would work well for Wild Elves, Copper Elves would probably be more like mixed background people because Copper Elves are exactly that, a mix of Wild Elves and the other Elven types. Greek ethnic inspiration seems like a good fit for Sun Elves IMO. Moon Elves and Star Elves physically are probably the ones to give the more anglo caucasian appearance. If the were to branch out further, I'm not sure about "asian" (which is a very generic term sadly) inspiration for any of them, Eladrin might be an interesting one to consider tying a bit of Japanese influence to, considering their art in Volo's Guide. Drow would potentially fit following the same pattern as Wild Elves, considering their background as the Dark Elves were originally from the same regions as the Green/Wild Elves.

However, with all the above, I think you'd still want to:
  • adjust eyes to be more almond shaped
  • add sharper, more angled, more defined jawline and cheekbones
  • make the nose a little narrower
  • reduce chin width to accent the more angled jawline
  • increase the angle of brows slightly
  • make the face a bit more slender



I like your ideas and would be happy to see something like this in-game in the future smile


So, what would the above mean for current character creation options for currently available races?

well...
High elves would have more european features, with them ranging from more anglo looking to greek/italian. The colourations would be:
Skin: Pale, tanned/bronze tones, pale skin tones with a blue hue, pale skin tones with a purple hue.
Hair: Blondes, Browns, Blacks, Reds, Blues, Whites, Golds, Silvers, Coppers
Eyes: Blacks, Golds, Silvers, Blue/Green with Gold Flecks, human colours.

Wood elves would be more african and mixed heritage features. Their actual bodies in theory, if a slider system was added, should probably have slightly more room for broader, sturdier appearance than high elves.
Skin: tanned/bronzed through to very dark browns
Hair: Copper, Brown, Blond, Black, Gold, Reds
Eyes: Greens, Hazels, Browns, possibly silver, possibly black

Lolthian Drow would be again more african for their features like Wild Elves, they should be shorter than high and wood elves.
Skin: shades of obsidian, purple, grey. brown or blue undertones, possibly include some lighter versions of those too as a nod to a lot of art.
Hair: various whites and off whites
Eyes: Reds, Purples, Ambers

Seldarine Drow should be pretty similar to Wood Elves for options, but be shorter like drow and lack the mixed heritage faces.

Reminding again that those real world ethnicities would be a starting point for elven faces, but they'd all be adjusted based on the bullet point list above.

Originally Posted by blindhamster
Originally Posted by TheAscendent
So does Astarion look enough like an Elf?


Responded in the other thread, and actually a few posts earlier in this one to this question.

I feel like Mods should merge the two elf threads. Kinda weird having two threads for essentially the same topic.


+1
Posted By: EndymionSelene Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 17/10/20 02:29 AM

Originally Posted by ZawiszaTheBlack

By the way, did you notice that all Elves in the game are as tall as human?


Elves should be as tall as humans or even taller like in Norse mythology and Tolkiens work DnD felt Elves were to perfect so they made them manlets but everyone rightfully ignores it.
Posted By: Newtinmpls Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 17/10/20 03:29 AM
My understanding is in the older tales and histories elves were always taller, thinner and "more ethereal" than stumpy humans.
Posted By: deadsanta Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 17/10/20 03:51 AM
Originally Posted by Newtinmpls
My understanding is in the older tales and histories elves were always taller, thinner and "more ethereal" than stumpy humans.

Nope, they were tiny in most stories, think "wee folk", or they were monstrous and misshapen like goblins, animals mixed with humans.

Posted By: Postwave Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 17/10/20 04:02 AM
Originally Posted by EndymionSelene

Originally Posted by ZawiszaTheBlack

By the way, did you notice that all Elves in the game are as tall as human?


Elves should be as tall as humans or even taller like in Norse mythology and Tolkiens work DnD felt Elves were to perfect so they made them manlets but everyone rightfully ignores it.


Forgotten Realms is not Tolkien.
Posted By: Zandilar Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 17/10/20 06:06 AM
Originally Posted by WarBaby2

Also, true, but these are Realms (D&D) elves we are talking about, and they have been very thoroughly described and illustrated for abour 30 years now, and one of the biggest reasons why they don't just look "like beautiful humans" is, that they are literally alien to Abeir Toril... like dwarves, they have no genetic ancestry with the planet's native humans, hence why they only vaguely resemble them, at most.

Contrary to, for instance, LotR, where the ancient Elves basically originated all intelligent live... even Orks and Goblins.


If you've been paying attention to illustrations in DnD you'll know that no two editions have the same kind of art style, and even within a single edition you'll find a wide variety of depictions, and no two are identical.

Look at the depiction of Drizzt on pg 21 of the 5e PHB, compare to the elf in pg 25, the one on pg 44, the bard on pg 51 (this one is a half elf I think), then you have a moon elf and a wood elf druid on pg 64 and 67 respectively. The ranger on pg 89 and the rogue on pg 91. Then we have another two spellcasting elves on pg 138 and 169. They all look, with like one exception (pg 138), like humans with funny ears and strange colours... But they're all slightly different in style too. The elven faces in BG3 are, afaic, elven enough for me.

FWIW Humans are just as much planar interlopers as the other races. It is vaguely implied that the original humans came from Earth (see the variety of human mythology represented - everyone from Tyr, Tymora/Beshaba (who together were originally the Greek goddess Tyche), practically the whole Egyptian pantheon (Sharess = Bast, for example), and gods from the Babylonian pantheon etc). Humans can also breed with elves to produce fertile offspring (half elves), which implies they are much closer on a genetic level than you'd think.

Z.
Posted By: blindhamster Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 17/10/20 02:03 PM
Originally Posted by Postwave
Originally Posted by EndymionSelene

Originally Posted by ZawiszaTheBlack

By the way, did you notice that all Elves in the game are as tall as human?


Elves should be as tall as humans or even taller like in Norse mythology and Tolkiens work DnD felt Elves were to perfect so they made them manlets but everyone rightfully ignores it.


Forgotten Realms is not Tolkien.



No, but forgotten realms elves have been as tall as humans since at least 3rd edition, even when the phb ones were not.
Posted By: Goldberry Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 19/10/20 05:34 PM
Originally Posted by Zandilar

If you've been paying attention to illustrations in DnD you'll know that no two editions have the same kind of art style, and even within a single edition you'll find a wide variety of depictions, and no two are identical.


Fair enough. Depictions vary from artist to artist, this much is true. However, some traits have been consistent, and I have attached 5e art to the very first post of this thread, in case you did not see.

It all boils down to the same though, specially considering just how much the art varies... That, ideally, it would be amazing if there were options for everyone's taste.
Posted By: Sharet Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 19/10/20 05:48 PM
Thank you for the time, effort and politeness you put in this post Goldberry!
Totally agree with you smile
Posted By: Argonaut Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 19/10/20 06:15 PM
Absolutely based.

It does my heart good to see such a sound argument backed up by evidence from all major sources, in this case 5e official material and artwork and descriptions from FRCS. And there is not much that I could add past my total support for the return to source in more way than one. I would like to acknowledge that Larian may have had noble intentions but the reality is that the changes made are not producing the results they had desired or the effects that they had hoped for and there is no shame in that. I don't believe the humanization of elves has done anything other than take away something magical and intriguing from the high fantasy genre in every dimension.

Now that I have played a few more hours of Baldur's Gate 3 Early Access perhaps more than I dare to admit... I feel like the content of this thread is now even more important to lift to attention. The game itself is really great, and certain enemies terrifying, but I haven't seen a single elf that doesn't just look like a human with pointy ears.

I also have other feedback (we need to talk about the bears), but as mentioned somewhere else there must be another way to forward it to the developers of Larian consequently for them to see and be aware of, so if anyone got advice, please share! This thread is otherwise a great place for players to pile up the constructive feedback for our elves!

Thread's too long to read the whole thing but:

I think this is probably just an EA issue? Agreed though, I was definitely a bit sad when I realized that Humans, Elves, Half-Elves, and tieflings all share the same body model. Isn't that probably just because the bodies are lower development priority at this point though?

Also, the female Githyanki is just the generic female model as well I believe.

Elves should DEFINITELY get their own body model at the very least, and yeah, the heads and facial hair feel way too human.

Thanks guys!
+1 Very much agree that the current half-elven faces are more 'elven' than the elven faces we have!

Those looking to make the half-elven faces available for their elves, please look into the mod HERE by AlanaSP: Custom Character Enhancer.
Originally Posted by henbit
Thread's too long to read the whole thing but:

I think this is probably just an EA issue? Agreed though, I was definitely a bit sad when I realized that Humans, Elves, Half-Elves, and tieflings all share the same body model. Isn't that probably just because the bodies are lower development priority at this point though?

Also, the female Githyanki is just the generic female model as well I believe.

Elves should DEFINITELY get their own body model at the very least, and yeah, the heads and facial hair feel way too human.

Thanks guys!


I HOPE it's an EA thing. I wasn't 100% sure since I haven't played EA (so haven't analysed the models/animations closely), but that's disappointing - especially when you look at dwarves, who have their own walking animation.
Posted By: Popsculpture Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 22/10/20 09:22 PM
I would post this in the feedback section if you haven't already; it would likely get more Dev eyes.
Posted By: Roxeus Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 23/10/20 03:24 AM
Muy cierto me tuve que hacer un semi elfo por que tenían más características de belleza pero igual como tu dices parecen muy humanos los elfos. Esperemos que hagan cambios o tocara esperar a los modders que hagan ese cambio. por cierto como subes fotos aca ?
Posted By: Eddiar Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 23/10/20 03:25 AM
Maybe slightly tilt the eyes?
Posted By: Roxeus Re: Elves are not Elven - 23/10/20 03:34 AM
Consulta encontraste diferencia en caras ? entre subrazas yo las veía todas igual D;!!!!
Posted By: FatePeddler Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 23/10/20 03:34 AM
OP tis is Larian's version on Elves. They are a fantasy race, you can make them look however you want.
Posted By: Eddiar Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 23/10/20 04:32 AM
Originally Posted by FatePeddler
OP tis is Larian's version on Elves. They are a fantasy race, you can make them look however you want.


You kind of cant.
You need sliders to create what you want. Otherwise you are stuck with the half a dozen faces that Larian has given you.
Posted By: FatePeddler Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 23/10/20 05:12 AM
Originally Posted by Eddiar
Originally Posted by FatePeddler
OP tis is Larian's version on Elves. They are a fantasy race, you can make them look however you want.


You kind of cant.
You need sliders to create what you want. Otherwise you are stuck with the half a dozen faces that Larian has given you.


I'm talking about Larian can make the elves how they want because they are a fantasy race, and who decides what a made up fantasy race *should* look like?

Elves in DOS2 looked like wood carvings, Elves in Dragon Age looked alien, Elves in Dragon Quest are pink skinned, with fairy wings, and Elves in LoTRs look like Humans with pointy ears.

Stop being the elf police guys :X.
Posted By: BrianDavion Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 23/10/20 05:50 AM
Originally Posted by FatePeddler
Originally Posted by Eddiar
Originally Posted by FatePeddler
OP tis is Larian's version on Elves. They are a fantasy race, you can make them look however you want.


You kind of cant.
You need sliders to create what you want. Otherwise you are stuck with the half a dozen faces that Larian has given you.


I'm talking about Larian can make the elves how they want because they are a fantasy race, and who decides what a made up fantasy race *should* look like?

Elves in DOS2 looked like wood carvings, Elves in Dragon Age looked alien, Elves in Dragon Quest are pink skinned, with fairy wings, and Elves in LoTRs look like Humans with pointy ears.

Stop being the elf police guys :X.



except fatepeddler, this isn't Larian's IP. this is D&D. And we're saying what the IP says elves look like. you're doing the equivilant of saying "ohh well it's just a sciencie fiction game, aliens can look like whatever they want" on a thread telling a video game maker that "no wookies are not bald with squid tentacles for hair"
Posted By: Eddiar Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 23/10/20 05:51 AM
Originally Posted by FatePeddler
Originally Posted by Eddiar
Originally Posted by FatePeddler
OP tis is Larian's version on Elves. They are a fantasy race, you can make them look however you want.


You kind of cant.
You need sliders to create what you want. Otherwise you are stuck with the half a dozen faces that Larian has given you.


I'm talking about Larian can make the elves how they want because they are a fantasy race, and who decides what a made up fantasy race *should* look like?

Elves in DOS2 looked like wood carvings, Elves in Dragon Age looked alien, Elves in Dragon Quest are pink skinned, with fairy wings, and Elves in LoTRs look like Humans with pointy ears.

Stop being the elf police guys :X.


I mean they can.
And its EA so I guess some people are not a fan of this interpretation and are voicing it.
Posted By: FatePeddler Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 23/10/20 05:52 AM
Originally Posted by BrianDavion
Originally Posted by FatePeddler
Originally Posted by Eddiar
Originally Posted by FatePeddler
OP tis is Larian's version on Elves. They are a fantasy race, you can make them look however you want.


You kind of cant.
You need sliders to create what you want. Otherwise you are stuck with the half a dozen faces that Larian has given you.


I'm talking about Larian can make the elves how they want because they are a fantasy race, and who decides what a made up fantasy race *should* look like?

Elves in DOS2 looked like wood carvings, Elves in Dragon Age looked alien, Elves in Dragon Quest are pink skinned, with fairy wings, and Elves in LoTRs look like Humans with pointy ears.

Stop being the elf police guys :X.



except fatepeddler, this isn't Larian's IP. this is D&D. And we're saying what the IP says elves look like. you're doing the equivilant of saying "ohh well it's just a sciencie fiction game, aliens can look like whatever they want" on a thread telling a video game maker that "no wookies are not bald with squid tentacles for hair"



They are Larian's Elves, and where did DND get Elves from? DND got them from J.R.R. Tolkien! It doesn't matter what they look like, when you read The Lord of the Rings you could've visualised them differently to how they were presented in the films.

They are a fantasy race, the creator can make them look how they wish. The same with a DND playthrough, Elves could be different in one playthrough compared to the next.
Posted By: Eddiar Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 23/10/20 06:03 AM
Originally Posted by FatePeddler

They are a fantasy race, the creator can make them look how they wish. The same with a DND playthrough, Elves could be different in one playthrough compared to the next.



And Larian has created an EA specifically for feedback and discussion.
And this is just that.

I will tell you the same thing to other players who try to tell people they can't have X or do Y.
Stop it.
Go do something more constructive.
Posted By: FatePeddler Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 23/10/20 06:08 AM
Originally Posted by Eddiar
Originally Posted by FatePeddler

They are a fantasy race, the creator can make them look how they wish. The same with a DND playthrough, Elves could be different in one playthrough compared to the next.



And Larian has created an EA specifically for feedback and discussion.
And this is just that.

I will tell you the same thing to other players who try to tell people they can't have X or do Y.
Stop it.
Go do something more constructive.


You're very aggressive.

I don't understand why people can't just adjust it to their liking in their own head canon, why must people have everyone available to them in game?
Posted By: Eddiar Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 23/10/20 06:17 AM
Originally Posted by FatePeddler
Originally Posted by Eddiar
Originally Posted by FatePeddler

They are a fantasy race, the creator can make them look how they wish. The same with a DND playthrough, Elves could be different in one playthrough compared to the next.



And Larian has created an EA specifically for feedback and discussion.
And this is just that.

I will tell you the same thing to other players who try to tell people they can't have X or do Y.
Stop it.
Go do something more constructive.


You're very aggressive.

I don't understand why people can't just adjust it to their liking in their own head canon, why must people have everyone available to them in game?


And I can't understand why people go on the internet, assume they are some sort of spokesperson for a company and defend that said company's actions. As they perceive them anyway. Then proceed to tell any dissenting voice regardless of how constructive they are to tear them down and belittle them.
What is even more interesting these sort of people take some sort of sanctimonious tone like they know better or are revealing facts that were previously unknown to the other posters.

What I find ironic is that such posters accuse others of headcanon when obviously its the otherside that is referencing materials and descriptions of the original authors of this piece of make believe fantasy. Not to mention everything so far presented is under construction and review until a full release and this company has explicitly said is looking for constructive feedback and concerns.

Anyway. To sum up.
Don't be a party pooper and get off your highhorse.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 23/10/20 07:43 AM
Interesting ... hope this will be noticed, and implemented. :3
Posted By: Argonaut Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 23/10/20 09:38 AM
@FatePeddler
It is using the baldurs gate brand, D&D brand and FR setting. In all of these elves have a consistent description and aesthetic. Moving past that elves originate from northern mythologies. Changing this and saying it is your interpretation is creative bankruptcy. I don't remember much complaint about how elves where portrayed in their own IPs.
Posted By: Neleothesze Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 23/10/20 11:15 AM
Lovely post, Goldberry. Very well documented.

+1 on wanting elven faces that are closer to how they've been depicted in DnD in the past.

My opinion is that if they got a deal with WotC to make a DnD game, I say they should stick close to the source material. Elves are not pointy-eared humans. If they already have these faces, it's fine, no one is asking them to take them out, but rather to add more faces, and have at least a few that conform to previously established elven aesthetics.
Posted By: Goldberry Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 23/10/20 02:29 PM
Originally Posted by FatePeddler
I'm talking about Larian can make the elves how they want because they are a fantasy race, and who decides what a made up fantasy race *should* look like?

Elves in DOS2 looked like wood carvings, Elves in Dragon Age looked alien, Elves in Dragon Quest are pink skinned, with fairy wings, and Elves in LoTRs look like Humans with pointy ears.

Stop being the elf police guys :X.


There is well documented source about the way elves are supposed to look like. Clearly, after six pages of a thread, there is also people out there who cares. I understand if you don't, though. And that is okay smile

Let's just not make an argument over it back and forth, I don't want this thread to be full of people throwing accusations and drama needlessly, let's try to keep it positive and constructive. This is not about demanding anything, or policing anything. Most of us have very deep feelings when it comes to BG and DND, for many of us it is a childhood thing, and we care for the proper representation. There is nothing wrong with talking about that.

P.S: Thank you for all the positive feedback and kind words! I can't reply to everyone personally, so just... Thank you! smile

Posted By: Nolowin Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 24/10/20 05:07 AM
Thanks for making this its own thread!

But yes, 100% agreed. I also wondered if there was some sort of oversight and the male half-elven faces got swapped with the full elf ones. I'm not even against the devs giving the elves a more "human" look, such as Astarion, who I think is a good compromise.
And even Astarion is far more fine-featured than just about every male elf head in the character creator. The one you posted in the opening could, imo, almost work as a dwarf face if you gave him a beard lol.
Posted By: Slippery Catfish Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 28/10/20 02:12 AM
Originally Posted by Nolowin
Thanks for making this its own thread!

But yes, 100% agreed. I also wondered if there was some sort of oversight and the male half-elven faces got swapped with the full elf ones. I'm not even against the devs giving the elves a more "human" look, such as Astarion, who I think is a good compromise.
And even Astarion is far more fine-featured than just about every male elf head in the character creator. The one you posted in the opening could, imo, almost work as a dwarf face if you gave him a beard lol.


I'm not exactly his #1 fan but I'm looking forward to playing as Astarion - as all the origin characters we've seen so far! His appearance is marketable and most people seem to like it, so I think Larian will stick with it without any hard changes, but I'd definitely love to see more lore-friendly face options for custom elves.

This does leave the problem of the lore-friendly faces standing alongside the marketable faces in the game world, but you can't have everything and that topic's already been well covered in here. Suffice to say it'd be jarring but better than nothing at all. Maybe Larian could consult with WotC about a reason for the differing faces?
Posted By: BrianDavion Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 28/10/20 02:41 AM
Originally Posted by Argonaut
@FatePeddler
It is using the baldurs gate brand, D&D brand and FR setting. In all of these elves have a consistent description and aesthetic. Moving past that elves originate from northern mythologies. Changing this and saying it is your interpretation is creative bankruptcy. I don't remember much complaint about how elves where portrayed in their own IPs.


exactly this, these stopped being Larian's elves when they got permission to slap the D&D and forgotten realms label on the game now the game is part of a eistablished IP, it's not more differant then in Larian did KOTOR 3 and wookies for some reason had tails. Giving Larian feedback on their faces not looking quite right, is honestly valid, because for fans of the franchise, stuff like that is important. Larian managed to catch that elves trance rather then sleep. so that deserves applause, but yeah, suggesting they make elven faces more angular because "they don't quite work right" is legit feedback
Posted By: Valis Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 29/10/20 01:30 PM
The male elves all look terrible.

Drow 'selective breeding' my ass.
Posted By: Imora DalSyn Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 29/10/20 08:11 PM
Originally Posted by ZawiszaTheBlack
Male Elf faces are joke. Most of them look like 80s fantasy-action movie hero with square jaw and hairy chest. LOL
I also don't understand Asian faces, it doesn't make sense for Elves, but makes a lot of sense for humans.

On the other hand elven design of Forgotten Realms changed through years and it's closer to human (the eyes are not that slanted anymore). Ofc closer to human doesn't mean big square jaw.
By the way, did you notice that all Elves in the game are as tall as human?

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]



Heh, Asian faces. My dwarf has one very Asian looking at certain angles...
Posted By: Uncle Lester Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 29/10/20 08:54 PM
Originally Posted by Imora DalSyn
Heh, Asian faces. My dwarf has one very Asian looking at certain angles...


The female dwarf head? It's quite funny in that when I looked at it in character creator, it seemed quite fitting for a (relatively fine-featured) dwarven lady, but then I saw a screenshot (different angle, as you say) and it looked like an angry Asian mom.
Posted By: Vortex138 Re: Elves are not Elven - 29/10/20 09:38 PM
i will throw my $.02 here and agree with the elves not looking quite elven. The characteristics of an elf is angular features, almond shaped eyes, and a thin, elegant build. They are supposed to look almost fragile, even the fighters that rely more on dexterity than strength for their attacks. An elf will build strength, but never look like they large muscles. Kind of like getting wiry as opposed to muscular. In D&D, on average, they are slightly shorter than humans. Males being around 5'6", where females will be get to be around 5'4". Eyes tend to be very light or bright colors, mostly greens, blues, or gold. Very little rounding to the features, more sharpness. Anyway, just trying to help.
Posted By: Goldberry Re: Elves are not Elven - 31/10/20 09:14 PM
Originally Posted by Valis
The male elves all look terrible.

Drow 'selective breeding' my ass.



Yeeep. Drow and surface elves should look different in theory, considering they do selective breeding.
Posted By: DistantStranger Re: Elves are not Elven - 31/10/20 09:26 PM
+1.

If I can't go Aasimar Paladin I will be an Elven Arcane Trickster so this is pertinent to my interests
Posted By: Slippery Catfish Re: Elves are not Elven - 03/11/20 06:51 AM
I figured this would be a good place to pose my query, what with it being all about Elves and lore accuracy (Very minor spoilers about appearance of an NPC ahead):

Astarion's master Cazador looks suspiciously elf-like, but he's got facial hair - a little goatee, but still something. Elves don't grow that at all, and even at a stretch Drow males usually just grow sideburns. Does anyone know what race Cazador is supposed to be? An unusual tiefling, maybe?

I hope it's not an elf and Larian tossed out the no facial hair thing they remembered to keep on the character creator.

Maybe Cazador is an elf and just wears fake facial hair to feel special? :P
Posted By: Abits Re: Elves are not Elven - 03/11/20 07:36 AM
Or a half elf...
Posted By: Slippery Catfish Re: Elves are not Elven - 03/11/20 07:41 AM
It was pointed out to me that his ears are waaay too long and pointy for a half elf, or I'd agree with you.
Posted By: Goldberry Re: Elves are not Elven - 03/11/20 08:20 PM
His ears do look too long, sadly the only indicative in this game that a creature is an elf. He might be a half-elf though, yet again, being unable to differentiate them is odd.

Just like there are tieflings everywhere, there are elves and half elves everywhere and all of them are very humanized in all regards, from appeareance to behaviour.

Posted By: KillerRabbit Re: Elves are not Elven - 03/11/20 08:31 PM
Small bump for this thread.

I don't think we need to eliminate any heads but some "otherworldly" heads would be nice. I like my freckle faced beauty but I'd also like a character who didn't seem to belong in the real world.
Posted By: Valsharra Re: Elves are not Elven - 03/11/20 09:15 PM
+1 for making the elf heads more elven! I haven’t played around with anything other than female drow in character creator yet but seeing those male elf and half-elf heads next to each other - I have to wonder if it’s an EA bug and they were meant to be the other way around? Agree with others that Astarion looks decent in terms of elven features, though.

Also I didn’t even realize that Halsin is supposed to be a full-blooded elf until reading this thread. I had assumed that he must be a half-elf or a human with an even smaller percentage of elven blood, and the only reason I thought he must have some elven blood is his ears. Otherwise I would have thought he was full-blooded human.
Posted By: Xatasha Re: Elves are not Elven - 03/11/20 10:54 PM
As a PC.........there should be as many options as possible since the players imagination is the important thing. As for NPCs they should mostly stick to stereotypes as this will help define a race and allow players a baseline as to what a standard race member should look like. As a table top GM this is a great way for background information.

So, for all races we need more options and ways to customize our characters but also give the baseline looks as well
Posted By: Goldberry Re: Elves are not Elven - 05/11/20 10:12 PM
Originally Posted by Xatasha
As a PC.........there should be as many options as possible since the players imagination is the important thing. As for NPCs they should mostly stick to stereotypes as this will help define a race and allow players a baseline as to what a standard race member should look like. As a table top GM this is a great way for background information.

So, for all races we need more options and ways to customize our characters but also give the baseline looks as well


My thoughts as well! I was really hoping they would go that route but so far I have seen very little of race specific content, switch the appeareance and most NPCs could really be any race.
Posted By: Tarlonniel Re: Elves are not Elven - 08/11/20 02:56 PM
I'm throwing in my support here (and compliments to Goldberry for all the work put into this - give my regards to Tom Bombadil, BTW).

After seeing the weird, interesting stuff Larian did with elves in OS2, I had high expectations for how they'd handle the semi-alien beings of this setting. Apparently they went the "humans with pointy ears" route instead. Very disappointing.
Posted By: Surface R Re: Elves are not Elven - 09/11/20 03:20 PM
I dont have much interest in this, but for the sake of the whole fantasy setting ... verisimilitude, spit... blargh... what a disgusting word, it would be preferable to have this race be at least a bit more original then just "pretty humans" they were morphed into.

Maybe the bodies could be made slender and not as tall as humans, maybe not. Maybe the facial shapes can be adjusted a bit like already covered here.

But i would like to suggest one relatively very easy to implement addition, that although it may not be supported by the actual official lore material - which btw, stole most of their fantasy races ideas from J.R.R Tolkien and turned them into mass marketing product - would make Elves and their hybrid variants stand out in a very recognizable and unique way.

We already have several types of demonic eyes based around the concept of black sclera and radiant irises.

I suggest elves get their own unique types of eyes which would be full color iris and sclera (the white part) with some kind of a pupil. The sclera and the iris would be of the same color with options of different color variations, darker and lighter blue or green and so on. These kinds of eyes would very visibly present an "alien" and "fey" aspect of another different race. While Tieflings have their demonic eyes, Elves should have the "heavenly variant" as a contrast. The iris and the pupil can also be shaped a little differently to enhance the sense of otherness.
Posted By: DanteYoda Re: Elves are not Elven - 10/11/20 03:46 AM
Actually real elves should be the size of a halfling or a gnome.. if you want to get technical.. Tolkien changed elves to be man-sized, D&D just copied Tolkien.

I assume BG3 is following wotc which imo is pretty far and gone from original D&D..

[Linked Image]


Some people do look like Elves to me.
Posted By: Dez Re: Elves are not Elven - 10/11/20 08:53 PM
I also reacted to the elves not looking very elvish - ESPECIALLY the male ones, most of their faces just had me like "??????" ...

There was literally like 1 male face and 2 female faces that I am okay with for elves - rest just didn't feel elven at all to me.

However, I'll give Larian the benefit of the doubt and ASSUME that the small sample pool is because the game is in EA. One can hope, at least.

And, I also reacted to there being hardly any lines appointed to elves. I believe there is one with SH (?) and one with the dream-person ("Dafork, I am an elf, why am I dreaming?")... I hope they got some more flagged lines in general (not just for elves) coming! ^_^ (oh, and also BUMP! Larian, take notes!! frown )
Posted By: Goldberry Re: Elves are not Elven - 18/11/20 06:16 PM
Originally Posted by Dez
And, I also reacted to there being hardly any lines appointed to elves. I believe there is one with SH (?) and one with the dream-person ("Dafork, I am an elf, why am I dreaming?")... I hope they got some more flagged lines in general (not just for elves) coming! ^_^ (oh, and also BUMP! Larian, take notes!! frown )


Yep. The few elven lines I found were rather shallow and silly. There should have been special interactions with Kagha, I know for sure I'd like to shame her about worshipping a human god :'D (Even though it isn't true.)
Posted By: Xeneize Re: Elves are not Elven - 18/11/20 10:12 PM
A beautiful original post. As an all time fan of elves, I'd like them represented a little better. The suggestions on this thread could go a long way.
Posted By: 1varangian Re: Elves are not Elven - 18/11/20 11:14 PM
Maybe the current elven heads will be available for humans after they put in the actual elven heads?

I don't usually like races looking too weird or fantastical, but BG3 elves do look completely human. Even the LotR elves in the movie look more elven, and they were played by humans.
Posted By: Tarlonniel Re: Elves are not Elven - 19/11/20 01:44 AM
Originally Posted by Goldberry
There should have been special interactions with Kagha, I know for sure I'd like to shame her about worshipping a human god :'D (Even though it isn't true.)


Wood elves get a special interaction with Kagha. I don't remember them getting unique lines anywhere else, though (aside from the few generic elven ones).

But I should give Larian props for the "dream sequences" you get if you rest right after the tutorial, before recruiting anyone. Each variety of elf imagines something different.
Posted By: Soul-Scar Re: Elves are not Elven - 19/11/20 03:29 AM
That first picture of elf and half elf is hilarious. The elf looks like you stuck pointy rears on a mutant human that injects steroids directly into into his chin before doing a 250lb bench press with his lips. A chin so square you hang a breast plate on each side of his face.

The examples of "real elf" are perfect.
Posted By: Goldberry Re: Elves are not Elven - 20/11/20 05:58 AM
Thank you all so much for your positive responses, I was not expecting so many people to feel similarly! I am most pleasantly surprised!

Originally Posted by Tarlonniel

Wood elves get a special interaction with Kagha. I don't remember them getting unique lines anywhere else, though (aside from the few generic elven ones).


I know, that's why I said I was expecting to be able to deity-shame her, lol! The special wood elf line combined with all of the elven NPCs around the druid grove make it seem as though it is standart for a wood elf to worship Silvanus.
And while some wood elves do, the Seldarine are literally their ancestors, so it makes so much more sense to go with Rillifane. Anyways, I get that not every deity gets to be included in the game, there are so many! But all the details add up.
Posted By: KillerRabbit Re: Elves are not Elven - 20/11/20 07:04 AM
Drow also have a unique dialogue with her.

Agreed with @Goldberry, this is something that should be noted. Elves who worship human deities take themselves out of the cycle of reincarnation, to leave the elven gods behind is to leave the elven community for all of eternity.
Posted By: Tarlonniel Re: Elves are not Elven - 20/11/20 02:05 PM
Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
Elves who worship human deities take themselves out of the cycle of reincarnation, to leave the elven gods behind is to leave the elven community for all of eternity.


The whole idea of elves having special connections with each other (and their gods) seems to have vanished. No special elf-related dialogue with Astarion at all. I might be hopelessly out of date - are communing and bonding even things in the lore anymore?
Posted By: Dexai Re: Elves are not Elven - 20/11/20 02:18 PM
Originally Posted by DanteYoda
Actually real elves should be the size of a halfling or a gnome.. if you want to get technical.. Tolkien changed elves to be man-sized, D&D just copied Tolkien.


Real elves should be made of mist!
Posted By: KillerRabbit Re: Elves are not Elven - 20/11/20 05:03 PM
Reverie seems to have changed. It's now connected to memory and the recall of past lives. It's not clear if other elven souls still commune with one another in reverie. Although its certainly possible that Tav and Astarian might discover that they knew each other in previous lives. Elves can also choose to avoid reverie and sleep instead where they will dream and sometimes the dreams are messages from Sehanine Moonbow. Drow can dream but don't remember past lives -- just darkness.
Posted By: Zellin Re: Elves are not Elven - 21/11/20 08:20 AM
Agreed with OP, elves appearance needs some additional work in overall. Some heads should be moved from elves to half-elves (mongolian and african for sure), some other heads should be moved from half-elves to elves. Halsin needs either appearance rework, either change of race to half-elf.

And this thread should be moved to suggestions and feedback section. It's quite important feedback, cause now elves are just humans with pointy ears and that's sad.
I kind of agree here and I really hope that the Elf face templates in the character creator are just placeholders tbh.

I'm all for inclusivity however, so here's a bunch of faces I think would work fine for elves while still allowing representation. Elfin Faces personal headcanon examples
Originally Posted by asheraa
I kind of agree here and I really hope that the Elf face templates in the character creator are just placeholders tbh.

I'm all for inclusivity however, so here's a bunch of faces I think would work fine for elves while still allowing representation. Elfin Faces personal headcanon examples

Don't get me wrong but Faerun has it's own people of color as human subraces and having elves looking exactly the same makes no sense and again turns them in humans with pointy ears (probably on glue).
May an elf share some facial features with those human subraces? - Yes, as long is it doesn't contradict elven specifics for those features. It's even normal for wood elves to have brown or yellowish skin. What we have now with some elven heads is not the case, unfortunetly.
If you take a look at elven portraits from NWN there are some good examples of how an elf may look more mongolian or african and elven at the same time.
Yeah there's lots of afro-descended or partly afro-descended looks that could work as elven. But they still have the main elven traits down. But Elf Head 3 is bad for elves the same way Elf Head 4 is. Too jawy, too broad, too weighty, too human.
Originally Posted by Zellin
Originally Posted by asheraa
I kind of agree here and I really hope that the Elf face templates in the character creator are just placeholders tbh.

I'm all for inclusivity however, so here's a bunch of faces I think would work fine for elves while still allowing representation. Elfin Faces personal headcanon examples

Don't get me wrong but Faerun has it's own people of color as human subraces and having elves looking exactly the same makes no sense and again turns them in humans with pointy ears (probably on glue).
May an elf share some facial features with those human subraces? - Yes, as long is it doesn't contradict elven specifics for those features. It's even normal for wood elves to have brown or yellowish skin. What we have now with some elven heads is not the case, unfortunetly.
If you take a look at elven portraits from NWN there are some good examples of how an elf may look more mongolian or african and elven at the same time.


Agreed with Zellin, I think fantasy races shouldn't reflect real-life human ethnicities, unless there is a good lore reason for that (tieflings). Elves are visually closest to Caucasian features with some Asian aspects (as I see it), but above that they should be their own thing. That said, asheraa provided some real faces with good guidelines for elvish features in humans. This is how half-elves should look like imo.
My favorite video game representation of elves and dwarves was in the first Witcher game, they were all clearly inhuman, but without looking unreal. The later Witcher games watered them down, I'm assuming because they were modeled on real people, but I'd still like if, elves especially, were made more otherworldly.
@asheera gave us some good examples of faces that could be a good basis for the art team. There is another thread on that topic that veered off into making connections between elves and the peoples of the earth and that thread got abandoned. Better to revive that thread than remake it here. Elven features are angular, delicate and unlike any one human group. The art in the Tome of Foes does a good job -- I especially like the drow in the pink dress. She just isn't from this planet, is she?

In addition to the elf heads we have now we need some that look otherworldly.
Originally Posted by Zellin
And this thread should be moved to suggestions and feedback section. It's quite important feedback, cause now elves are just humans with pointy ears and that's sad.


I didn't think of that, I thought they'd be reviewing the entire forums to be honest. Besides the suggestions section is oversaturated, so many posts, I'm not sure they can actually read through all of it, but I don't know.

I am however, thrilled and very surprised with just how many people have participated in here, so maybe we should start doing on what to do next. I know that the developers get informed directly through the 'send feedback' button in the game launcher, so maybe we could send a link to this thread or... I don't know. I listen to suggestions!
Originally Posted by Sozz
My favorite video game representation of elves and dwarves was in the first Witcher game, they were all clearly inhuman, but without looking unreal. The later Witcher games watered them down, I'm assuming because they were modeled on real people, but I'd still like if, elves especially, were made more otherworldly.


Actually in the witcher universe elves, if I'm not mistaken, have sharp teeth, like goblins in BG3, but less prominent. Even the witcher 1 didn't make them right, but indeed they were more inhuman than their later version.
Originally Posted by Goldberry
Originally Posted by Zellin
And this thread should be moved to suggestions and feedback section. It's quite important feedback, cause now elves are just humans with pointy ears and that's sad.


I didn't think of that, I thought they'd be reviewing the entire forums to be honest. Besides the suggestions section is oversaturated, so many posts, I'm not sure they can actually read through all of it, but I don't know.

I am however, thrilled and very surprised with just how many people have participated in here, so maybe we should start doing on what to do next. I know that the developers get informed directly through the 'send feedback' button in the game launcher, so maybe we could send a link to this thread or... I don't know. I listen to suggestions!

The suggestions section being oversaturated is one of reasons I wouldn't expect them to pay much attention to anything in this section. They are more likely spending enough of their time digging through topics there.
You can ask a moderator to move your topic.
Also I was going to make one big topic about visuals there, I think I will add a link to your topic in it, when I'll start about elves.
Originally Posted by Maerd
Originally Posted by Sozz
My favorite video game representation of elves and dwarves was in the first Witcher game, they were all clearly inhuman, but without looking unreal. The later Witcher games watered them down, I'm assuming because they were modeled on real people, but I'd still like if, elves especially, were made more otherworldly.


Actually in the witcher universe elves, if I'm not mistaken, have sharp teeth, like goblins in BG3, but less prominent. Even the witcher 1 didn't make them right, but indeed they were more inhuman than their later version.


It's the opposite, elves don't have canines in the Witcher universe. It's actually a plot point in one scene in one of the books.
Originally Posted by Uncle Lester
Originally Posted by Maerd
Originally Posted by Sozz
My favorite video game representation of elves and dwarves was in the first Witcher game, they were all clearly inhuman, but without looking unreal. The later Witcher games watered them down, I'm assuming because they were modeled on real people, but I'd still like if, elves especially, were made more otherworldly.


Actually in the witcher universe elves, if I'm not mistaken, have sharp teeth, like goblins in BG3, but less prominent. Even the witcher 1 didn't make them right, but indeed they were more inhuman than their later version.


It's the opposite, elves don't have canines in the Witcher universe. It's actually a plot point in one scene in one of the books.

Maybe you're thinking of the Elves in Elder Scrolls who are solely carnivores?
Originally Posted by Sozz
Maybe you're thinking of the Elves in Elder Scrolls who are solely carnivores?


Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't just Bosmer strictly carnivorous, and only for cultural/religious reasons? I don't think I've heard about all mer being carnivores (though perhaps I'm poorly informed).
Originally Posted by Uncle Lester
Originally Posted by Sozz
Maybe you're thinking of the Elves in Elder Scrolls who are solely carnivores?


Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't just Bosmer strictly carnivorous, and only for cultural/religious reasons? I don't think I've heard about all mer being carnivores (though perhaps I'm poorly informed).
I'm hardly an expert on Elder Scrolls lore but yes, it's the Wood Elves" in the Emerald Forest who strictly eat meat, I don;t know if it's because they can't metabolize anything else or if it's a "super-environmentalist" cultural/religious thing, I think both are cool.
Originally Posted by Sozz
Originally Posted by Uncle Lester
Originally Posted by Sozz
Maybe you're thinking of the Elves in Elder Scrolls who are solely carnivores?


Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't just Bosmer strictly carnivorous, and only for cultural/religious reasons? I don't think I've heard about all mer being carnivores (though perhaps I'm poorly informed).
I'm hardly an expert on Elder Scrolls lore but yes, it's the Wood Elves" in the Emerald Forest who strictly eat meat, I don;t know if it's because they can't metabolize anything else or if it's a "super-environmentalist" cultural/religious thing, I think both are cool.


From UESP:

Quote
The Green Pact, also known as the Treaty of Frond and Leaf, is a strict code upheld by many of the Bosmer of Valenwood. It is said to have guided their existence since the beginning of the "great story". Its rules are clear. Do not harm the forests of Valenwood. Do not eat anything made from plant life. Eat only meat. When enemies are conquered, their meat must be eaten, not left to rot. Do not kill wastefully. Do not take on the shape of beasts.


More on topic: I like how Skyrim actually makes elves look "alien". They don't look great, but that's more a matter of execution rather than design, I think. (And of course TES games vary wildly with race depictions...) Oblivion Character Overhaul mod does a pretty good job at that. (Erring on the side of "pretty", but elves still look distinct.)
Good thread.. after going through it all i agree with most here. They did a good job with the dwarves, humans, gith and tieflings... then like a few have said "slapped some pointy ears on the human model" for elves...

Understand elves are in a lot of different places in a lot a lot of different forms but kinda agree with those who thought they should have stayed with a more standard model from d&d if thats the player base they are primarily going for making... a d&d game... ;D

After an initial "that looks nice" impression of the character generator.. just seems like they got a little lazy with the elf race... probably not unrelated to how the missed even worse(so bad lol) with the hafling race... always thought haflings were supposed to look more like the nimble/agile elf... here they look like they have been crossbred with dwarves for a few generations! laugh but then here, elves dont have that look either...

After making a bunch of characters it kinda feels like part of a bigger overall problem of lack customization with the entire process... this is probably made bigger by the type of gamers we are... we all know how we think things should look and like it that way! ;D also why things like body sliders go such a long way
Some more pictures for you guys to enjoy!

[Linked Image]

Am I the only one who absolutely adores that sun elf? That MANE! laugh

[Linked Image]

Also, another gem I found, I might pin this one to the main post:

[Linked Image]
Originally Posted by Goldberry
Some more pictures for you guys to enjoy!

[Linked Image]

Am I the only one who absolutely adores that sun elf? That MANE! laugh

[Linked Image]

Also, another gem I found, I might pin this one to the main post:

[Linked Image]






I hope we get sun elves
Originally Posted by A Clown
I hope we get sun elves


We have already! In 5E the term "High Elves" includes both Sun Elves and Moon Elves. So what we have to beg for is traditional elven looking elves, lol. PLEASE LARIAN NOTICE US SENPAI.
I hope we get Sun/Moon elf split. At the very least in the form of separate lore palettes and NPCs looking one or the other.
Originally Posted by Uncle Lester
I hope we get Sun/Moon elf split. At the very least in the form of separate lore palettes and NPCs looking one or the other.


I don't know, at least visually you can make one or the other and the rest is just picking whatever dialogue option feels more moon or sun.

I'd rather have Eladrin, they're different enough to have their own category and I'd be curious to see how they'd look.
All of this sub-race talk reminds me of how much I've always wanted to play a Merfolk, or Water Elf.
Originally Posted by Goldberry
Originally Posted by Uncle Lester
I hope we get Sun/Moon elf split. At the very least in the form of separate lore palettes and NPCs looking one or the other.


I don't know, at least visually you can make one or the other and the rest is just picking whatever dialogue option feels more moon or sun.


True, though I always like when a game recognizes things (so to speak) and doesn't make you rely on headcanon. Reactivity and all that. And there's also the matter of NPCs; it would be a shame if they merged two different (visually and culturally) subsets of elves into one entity and placed only generic "high elves" in the world.

Originally Posted by Goldberry
I'd rather have Eladrin, they're different enough to have their own category and I'd be curious to see how they'd look.


Yeah, I think Eladrin are rather unlikely, but I'd love to see how they go about the seasons thing.
Originally Posted by Uncle Lester
Yeah, I think Eladrin are rather unlikely, but I'd love to see how they go about the seasons thing.


We get a tiny taste of the seasonal thing in elven eye colors. It's a nice touch.

I think we should have a whole game about elves and just elves. All the different varieties! All the lore! Trips to the Feywild, Evermeet, Myth Drannor, Evereska!

Aaaand probably no one would buy it. sigh
Originally Posted by Goldberry
Originally Posted by Uncle Lester
I hope we get Sun/Moon elf split. At the very least in the form of separate lore palettes and NPCs looking one or the other.


I don't know, at least visually you can make one or the other and the rest is just picking whatever dialogue option feels more moon or sun.

I'd rather have Eladrin, they're different enough to have their own category and I'd be curious to see how they'd look.


*Pours one out for the earlier edition Eladrin*

I don't mind the current Eladrin enough that I'd be interested and even happy to see them in game, but I do miss them being the Celestials they were.

Any split from High Elf into Sun/Moon as separate acknowledged things is very unlikely at this stage imo, but I've always held an affection for Sun Elves as well! ^^
Originally Posted by Tarlonniel
Originally Posted by Uncle Lester
Yeah, I think Eladrin are rather unlikely, but I'd love to see how they go about the seasons thing.


We get a tiny taste of the seasonal thing in elven eye colors. It's a nice touch.

I think we should have a whole game about elves and just elves. All the different varieties! All the lore! Trips to the Feywild, Evermeet, Myth Drannor, Evereska!

Aaaand probably no one would buy it. sigh


I don't think so! It's never been done before, has it? If done right, it can make for a great game smile The closest thing I can think of is Kingdoms of Amalur, it is a little bit of a niche and unknown game but those who know it seem to love it.
Ah when people point it out that Halfelf look more like Elf. Perhaps an easy solution would be that developers change so Half Elf models are Elf and Elf models are Half-Elf....

Oh yes though I have enjoyed Goldberry suggestions in this thread I want to keep fairly realistic. I am not saying we could not do what Goldberry wants. I simply pointed out a doable more say easy change. I really like your Elf pictures Goldberry.
Posted By: Vallis Re: Elves are not Elven - 04/01/21 01:52 PM
I disagree. I play a Half elf and they look pretty damn human-esque. The pure elves are easy to tell apart as all their features are more elongated. Half-elves practically look human with slight elven angularity, ears and eyes. The half elves don't all look alike either, that's just one preset, and you chose literally the youngest looking preset of them all for the arguement.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Originally Posted by DumbleDorf
I'm pretty sure I already said it all summarised as 'You can make better looking characters in Oblivion'.

Because the point is that by current standards, Oblivion actually had very atrocious character models and it didn't age well at all, yet somehow BG3 manages to still be worse in 2020.

The small pick of default faces pretty much all look the same. Select a beard then switch through each face and you can barely see any difference at all. They are not sufficient to meet each player's choices or desires in how they want their character to look.

A fully customisable character creation engine like in Oblivion and Skyrim should pretty much be a mandatory requirement for new AAA RPGs.

Sorry, but you can't be serious. There's not a single Elder Scrolls game or Bethesda game in general where you can create an actually good looking NON-nord character without mods. This character creator is miles above ANYTHING in a vanilla Bethesda game. They have the WORST character models in gaming. You could not even create an imperial or breton character in Skyrim without them looking inbred. Of the human presets, only one Nord one came close to looking anything like a normal human. So if you wanted an aesthetic male in Skyrim, you had to play as the one nord preset. There's a reason countless preset overhaul mods exist for skyrim. Almost no one likes their take on character models. All the human race presets in Skyrim were absolutely horrble, and the elves were so awful looking you didn't want to play one. Oblivion was even worse with those potato heads. In this game I actually would not mind playing an elf/half-elf n actual fact the Half elf looks better than the Humans.

As for your small selection complaint. Say it with me. EARLY ACCESS
Posted By: Dexai Re: Elves are not Elven - 04/01/21 02:11 PM
...I literally only play Bretons and Imperials in Skyrim because they are the only good looking humans...
Posted By: Vallis Re: Elves are not Elven - 04/01/21 02:17 PM
Originally Posted by Dexai
...I literally only play Bretons and Imperials in Skyrim because they are the only good looking humans...
......What?!?! they were the worst. Bretons all looked 60+ or inbred and Imperials deformed in vanilla. Nords and Redguard legit were the only normal looking humans, and even they had only a few decent presets to choose, mainly the first 3.

[Linked Image from images.saymedia-content.com]

Nords being the most aesthetic, is probably why so many follower mods including the ones that are supposed to be other humans races, use the nord models

Anyway i''m good on the elven models currently. I'd rather elves look human-like rather than the balding goblins they looked like in Skyrim. So hideous that nobody wanted to play one. I often found the pompous attitudes of elves especially the high ones in Skyrim laughable since they all looked objectively worse than humans and not at all superior lol. They all looked more goblin-esque than the actual orc race, eyes sickly etc and if you managed to become a vampire elf in skyrim? Dear god in heaven.

[Linked Image from i.ytimg.com]

I think part of this change is due to feedback from Divinity. Vanilla elves in Divinity were not so great. The males only had like 2 decent presets.
Posted By: Nyloth Re: Elves are not Elven - 04/01/21 03:48 PM
and drow males still only have one normal young face. why devs like to add only old faces for male characters...
Posted By: Bruh Re: Elves are not Elven - 04/01/21 04:10 PM
Originally Posted by Nyloth
and drow males still only have one normal young face. why devs like to add only old faces for male characters...
Because old guys are hawt wink
Yes, I'm serious.
Posted By: Nyloth Re: Elves are not Elven - 04/01/21 06:30 PM
Originally Posted by Bruh
Originally Posted by Nyloth
and drow males still only have one normal young face. why devs like to add only old faces for male characters...
Because old guys are hawt wink
Yes, I'm serious.

Only if they look like Astarion.
Posted By: Kadajko Re: Elves are not Elven - 04/01/21 07:16 PM
Originally Posted by Nyloth
and drow males still only have one normal young face. why devs like to add only old faces for male characters...

Because sexism, female faces have to look good, male faces don't.
Posted By: Wyrmblade Re: Elves are not Elven - 04/01/21 10:10 PM
Its kind of weird for elves to look old..
Aalso agree with op elves dont look very elven.
Not terrible but this is baldurs gate ok isnt good enough.
Posted By: Talking Skull Re: Elves are not Elven - 05/01/21 07:51 PM
Does everything have to be about sexism? Frankly, I find the majority of faces in character creation ugly regardless of race or sex save for maybe a couple here and there. They should consider adding more faces, sliders or maybe the ability to swap parts (eye 12 with nose 7 for example) so that there are less complaints. The faces they included are average joes, so its to be expected they're not going to look drop dead gorgeous or anything.
Posted By: Kadajko Re: Elves are not Elven - 05/01/21 07:57 PM
Originally Posted by Talking Skull
Does everything have to be about sexism?

No, not at all, but this aspect consistently is, how many old elven female faces are there compared to males?
Posted By: Darun Re: Elves are not Elven - 06/01/21 02:42 AM
Originally Posted by Talking Skull
Does everything have to be about sexism?

Of course; the holier than thou social justice warriors are everywhere, after all.
Posted By: Goldberry Re: Elves are not Elven - 06/01/21 03:07 AM
Originally Posted by Vallis
I disagree. I play a Half elf and they look pretty damn human-esque. The pure elves are easy to tell apart as all their features are more elongated. Half-elves practically look human with slight elven angularity, ears and eyes. The half elves don't all look alike either, that's just one preset, and you chose literally the youngest looking preset of them all for the arguement.

I was lazy to take a screenshot of all the faces. While it is true that I picked the youngest looking one, I still think that all of the half elven heads are better than all of the elven heads. More delicate and attractive.

You are right that half elves look pretty damn human-esque though. The point here is that... So do full blooded elves, actually.
Posted By: Kadajko Re: Elves are not Elven - 06/01/21 10:42 AM
Originally Posted by Darun
Of course; the holier than thou social justice warriors are everywhere, after all.

It's not about holier than thou, this is about me not getting what I want. I don't really care about politics behind these choices, I just don't like the fact that I am locked out of multiple races when it comes to playing male characters, because I like to play characters that look good, and it is impossible to create a good looking male character ( for my taste) with the current CC options on some races.

Mods often fix these problems however,so I'm not too worried.

That said, there was a question:

Originally Posted by Nyloth
why devs like to add only old faces for male characters...

Answer to the question ''why'' is undeniably sexism, to me it's obvious. If you think the reason is different, I am all ears.
ok, since this topic is open about "sexist" .. let's go!

I made a "dude - uh uh" and somehow I got a glitch which prove my point even better.

But here is the context, from my perspective. I was a bit offended about why when you put the Githyanki's armour on a female, she shows up like in short pants (you can even see butt cheeks if you zoom in) but when you put that same armour on a "dude" the guy is fully padded from toe to neck. My first reaction was, ah dudes are always on their knees and needs padding perhaps or some help ? :- ).

Game developers are always making the female sexy, as if we will chase monsters in high heels or wearing skirts and sexy dress... while the males are always fully padded. (Im really thinking they need padding so they don't hurt them self .. by them self, that's the only rational I came up with).

So to counter this, I made this "sexy dude" (based on Rollo from the Vicking cuz he's hot) and used that Nightsong" mod from nexus and make it top less. But the #@$#$ mod has a glitch ONLY with male, how convenient. The same "pants - only" works great on female (shadowheart) of course, but look on my male:


[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]



How's that o.O
anyway .. can't stop the dev "male" fantasy I guess ..
-S
Actually, you guys are going a little too off-topic now. I don't mind a little bit of divertion but that's not what we are going for here laugh
Originally Posted by Goldberry
Actually, you guys are going a little too off-topic now. I don't mind a little bit of divertion but that's not what we are going for here laugh

Hippity hoppity, your thread is now our sexism discussion property.

On a more serious note though, it is midly related to your topic, if you look at your own male face side by side example comparrison you will see that you did not pick that one by accident. If you were to use female faces it would be harder to see if not impossible.
Originally Posted by Goldberry
Quote
Actually, you guys are going a little too off-topic now.

Well, comparing photos between genders will inevitably bring something sexist along the way and that's how I felt invited to come n' chipping in.

Originally Posted by Goldberry
Quote
I still think that all of the half elven heads are better than all of the elven heads.

Perhaps it respect some universal rules about beauty, mixte-race "generally" has a better percentage for beauty. That was established by Darwin, though the study is a bit more complex than that.

Nonetheless, female characters seems to be design to attracts the boys & the lunatics with false belief that 80% of gamers are boys .. and the few of us girls, (according to that false assumption) we get the last pic in the bag of faces for male characters IF we want the equivalent.

That, perhaps, is a sign that there's a need for more female game developers. If we had more female dev, there would be more equity between genders and to the point, between races - that's quite an assumption I'm making here.

So basically, once again, with the example about the Githyanki's armour, it would have the same look on a female character or male character - either we see the butt cheek for both male/female or both are fully padded or adjusted the same way. (I don't like the fully padded, neither the "butt cheek" version, I would adjusted so it's not that "sexy" and it's not that big either).

-S
Originally Posted by Starlights
That, perhaps, is a sign that there's a need for more female game developers.

-S

As a girl who love games, this is a very scary thought for me during modern social movements.

This can completely disfigure the design of women's armor, make it look like squalor for nuns. You know, I don't have anything against "bra armor", I guess I just want something similar for men. Fanservice for women! But in fact, women developers can give you a completely reverse thing, unfortunately. Because now everyone is talking about "sexualization", about how bad it is and blablabla. But this is a game, I want things to look cool, hot, stylish. I don't even want to think about stupid realism.

I bet there are enough womens in Bioware, both among designers and developers, and looks like it does not help them...
I want games to service me, which means less bra and thong armour for both men and women.

And that is why the game developing business needs more clones of me in it.
Originally Posted by Dexai
I want games to service me, which means less bra and thong armour for both men and women.

And that is why the game developing business needs more clones of me in it.
Perfect reply

Going back to the main topic of this thread: @Goldberry summarized perfectly what I wasn't being able to point out exactly why Elf faces were bothering me so much. They mostly look human. I think there are only two female Elf faces that fits the category nicely, and that is it. I remember actually going for a half-elf character because he looked more elven than elves, lol. So yeah, I absolutely agree with this thread.

On a side note, I saw you mention that there were few interactions based on your High-Elf race, I was wondering if that's because maybe when Larian made the "high-elf" subrace they meant only Moon elves, which are more common
Originally Posted by Starlights
Originally Posted by Goldberry
Quote
Actually, you guys are going a little too off-topic now.

Well, comparing photos between genders will inevitably bring something sexist along the way and that's how I felt invited to come n' chipping in.

Originally Posted by Goldberry
Quote
I still think that all of the half elven heads are better than all of the elven heads.

Perhaps it respect some universal rules about beauty, mixte-race "generally" has a better percentage for beauty. That was established by Darwin, though the study is a bit more complex than that.

Nonetheless, female characters seems to be design to attracts the boys & the lunatics with false belief that 80% of gamers are boys .. and the few of us girls, (according to that false assumption) we get the last pic in the bag of faces for male characters IF we want the equivalent.

That, perhaps, is a sign that there's a need for more female game developers. If we had more female dev, there would be more equity between genders and to the point, between races - that's quite an assumption I'm making here.

So basically, once again, with the example about the Githyanki's armour, it would have the same look on a female character or male character - either we see the butt cheek for both male/female or both are fully padded or adjusted the same way. (I don't like the fully padded, neither the "butt cheek" version, I would adjusted so it's not that "sexy" and it's not that big either).

-S

Why are people complaining about beautiful women? We like to look at attractive people, we are a vain species, pretending otherwise is coping, the Men are just as attractive in this game so I don't see the arguement. It seems like people are less concerned with elves looking too human, and more concerned over half elves "looking better" than actual elves in their opinion, because they BOTH look pretty human. Video games should not serve as platforms to boost players own self esteem, there's people to talk to for that, they should look representitive of the artist direction. I honestly feel for these developers, because they're trying to portray their own artistic vision, while having to deal with the various people with their own personal issues who think the artist's work should cater to them specifically and be their own personal therapy so to speak, and when you have a bunch of different people wanting different things specifically catered to them, that direction gets lost, part of the reason these big AAA developers have been stumbling in this era of games is listening TOO much to player feedback, or atleast not the right kind of constructive feedback, rather they listen to the people who think they should make their game. Trying to make games for everyone, instead of the game they set out to make. "Why isn't this character this sexuality I wanted to romance that one!" "why does this character look this way, it should look like how I want". This not only damages characters in the development process, but the entire game as a whole. Anyway having more female developers =/= a better product, afterall more females at CD projekt red worked on Cyberpunk 2077 than they did on Witcher 3, and one of those games became one of the biggest rpg's of all time, the other, the biggest blunder since Fallout 76. So gender does not make a product good. Talent does, only talent

Apologies for the mini rant, but i'm just tired of this rhetoric, this rhetoric has already destroyed many of the AAA developers from Bioware to Bethesda to now CD Projekt and people insist on destroying the few we have left making quality games. Gamers need to get back to constructive criticisms, gaming mechanics, combat, writing etc etc and stop trying to turn the games into their own personal mod. Just play Skyrim instead and you can morph the entire game how you see fit LOL

But yes, most gamers are boys that's a fact, infact despite Ubisoft making Kassandra of Assassins Creed the canon character 80% of players still chose Alexios. And it was the same for Mass Effect and Commander Shepard, despite how hard they pushed femshep after 3. What does that tell you. Keep in mind here no one is saying girls aren't or can't be gamers, boys can play with barbies too. But the fact is, barbies are by and large sold to girls.
Originally Posted by Vallis
Apologies for the mini rant, but i'm just tired of this rhetoric, this rhetoric has already destroyed many of the AAA developers from Bioware to Bethesda to now CD Projekt and people insist on destroying the few we have left making quality games. Gamers need to get back to constructive criticisms, gaming mechanics, combat, writing etc etc and stop trying to turn the games into their own personal mod. Just play Skyrim instead and you can morph the entire game how you see fit LOL

But yes, most gamers are boys that's a fact, infact despite Ubisoft making Kassandra of Assassins Creed the canon character 80% of players still chose Alexios. And it was the same for Mass Effect and Commander Shepard, despite how hard they pushed femshep after 3. What does that tell you. Keep in mind here no one is saying girls aren't or can't be gamers, boys can play with barbies too. But the fact is, barbies are by in large sold to girls.
I completely agree with this. I'd also like to remind the people who brought up sexism to look at the media catering to women and tell me how often they see hot, shirtless guys fawning over a totally average female protagonist and how that's any different from games with a mostly male audience having their females look attractive. Games cater to their main demographics. Both sexes like eye candy, both have self insert protags, who cares? There are games out there with fat, covered up women where everything is pastel and no one is sexy if you want them but those games fail to bring in an audience for a reason.
Originally Posted by Vallis
Why are people complaining about beautiful women?

No one is complaining about that. Please quote the complaint.

Originally Posted by Vallis
Men are just as attractive in this game.

Your subjective opinion vs other peoples subjective opinion.

Originally Posted by Vallis
people with their own personal issues who think the artist's work should cater to them specifically.

In a way. This is an RPG, character creator should have options, DIFFERENT options, not a lot of very similar ones.

Originally Posted by Vallis
So gender does not make a product good. Talent does, only talent.

True, gender of devs is completely irrelevant.

Originally Posted by Vallis
Gamers need to get back to constructive criticisms.

TBH, this topic is pretty constructive by OP, we just derailed it, sexism was a little side note. Elves in this game don't look elfy, it's not lore friendly.

Originally Posted by Talking Skull
I'd also like to remind the people who brought up sexism to look at the media catering to women and tell me how often they see hot, shirtless guys fawning over a totally average female protagonist and how that's any different from games with a mostly male audience having their females look attractive.

Most of us just want equality tbh. If there are a lot of beautiful female faces, there should be as many beautiful male faces, if there are a lot of old male faces, there should be a lot of old female faces, if an armor shows buttcheeks it should show buttcheeks on males and females both, if an armor looks practical it should also look practical on both etc. Zero problems with sexy, so long as it is for both sexes in equal amount AND ( this is important ) exactly the same way.
Originally Posted by Talking Skull
Originally Posted by Vallis
Apologies for the mini rant, but i'm just tired of this rhetoric, this rhetoric has already destroyed many of the AAA developers from Bioware to Bethesda to now CD Projekt and people insist on destroying the few we have left making quality games. Gamers need to get back to constructive criticisms, gaming mechanics, combat, writing etc etc and stop trying to turn the games into their own personal mod. Just play Skyrim instead and you can morph the entire game how you see fit LOL

But yes, most gamers are boys that's a fact, infact despite Ubisoft making Kassandra of Assassins Creed the canon character 80% of players still chose Alexios. And it was the same for Mass Effect and Commander Shepard, despite how hard they pushed femshep after 3. What does that tell you. Keep in mind here no one is saying girls aren't or can't be gamers, boys can play with barbies too. But the fact is, barbies are by in large sold to girls.
I completely agree with this. I'd also like to remind the people who brought up sexism to look at the media catering to women and tell me how often they see hot, shirtless guys fawning over a totally average female protagonist and how that's any different from games with a mostly male audience having their females look attractive. Games cater to their main demographics. Both sexes like eye candy, both have self insert protags, who cares? There are games out there with fat, covered up women where everything is pastel and no one is sexy if you want them but those games fail to bring in an audience for a reason.

100%, and even the super crazy tumblr-types would agree in secret, despite how much some push unnattractive people as ideal in their art and protest beauty, they don't actually believe that nor want those types and often times, desire people well above their own station. Before the tumblr nsfw ban almost every nsfw blog was of hot jock males LOL

Originally Posted by Kadajko
[quote=Vallis]


Your subjective opinion vs other peoples subjective opinion.

There is nothing subjective about this, this is objectively handsome, just as brad pitt is objectively handsome, you can say he's not your personal taste, but you must acknowledge he is objectively beautiful. Beauty is not an opinion. Some people are objectively sexy, and others objectively repulsive. Attraction though, is subjective.

[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]
I wonder if the discussion of gender is helping @goldberry's cause? She's only made one thread to advocate for one issue and I want to see her succeed.

Seems like people want to discuss representation, gender and beauty standards -- which could be great fun. Perhaps someone could make a separate thread about that?
Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
I wonder if the discussion of gender is helping @goldberry's cause? She's only made one thread to advocate for one issue and I want to see her succeed.

Seems like people want to discuss representation, gender and beauty standards -- which could be great fun. Perhaps someone could make a separate thread about that?

I was about to suggest the same thing. There is obviously need to discuss gender and sexism, it would be best to make a thread for that.


As for the original topic: I do agree, that the elves don't look that elvy.
Originally Posted by Vallis
There is nothing subjective about this, this is objectively handsome, just as brad pitt is objectively handsome, you can say he's not your personal taste, but you must acknowledge he is objectively beautiful. Beauty is not an opinion. Some people are objectively sexy, and others objectively repulsive. Attraction though, is subjective.

Even if this were to be true, which it is not, but it is irrelevant to my next point: you don't find it ironic that you posted exactly the ONE face that OP also posted? The one face everyone picks, and it is not an elf face?
Posted By: Vallis Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 08/01/21 08:52 PM
Originally Posted by Kadajko
Originally Posted by Vallis
There is nothing subjective about this, this is objectively handsome, just as brad pitt is objectively handsome, you can say he's not your personal taste, but you must acknowledge he is objectively beautiful. Beauty is not an opinion. Some people are objectively sexy, and others objectively repulsive. Attraction though, is subjective.

you don't find it ironic that you posted exactly the ONE face that OP also posted? The one face everyone picks, and it is not an elf face?

Except it's not. The preset used in OP is head 5 for the half high elf, aka the most baby faced and youngest looking of the half high elf presets. Which is exactly why I called OP out for it, using the most babyfaced preset in the roster to prove that half elves look more "delicate" and elven than the full elves. The preset in the photo above is head 1 for the half high elf and looks drastically older, and very much human, despite some claiming the half elves look "too elf" apparently, i'm like besides the ears, where? LOL

[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]
Posted By: Kadajko Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 08/01/21 09:00 PM
Originally Posted by Vallis
Except it's not. The preset used in OP is head 5 for the half high elf, aka the most baby faced and youngest looking of the half high elf presets. Which is exactly why I called OP out for it, using the most babyfaced preset in the roster to prove that half elves look more "delicate" and elven than the full elves. The preset in the photo above is head 1 for the half high elf and looks drastically older, and very much human, despite some claiming the half elves look "too elf" apparently, i'm like besides the ears, where? LOL

Fair enough, my bad. The face expression and the beard made me see the other face. I agree that all faces look human and should be slightly elvenized. That said you were talking about faces looking good while showing off half-elven faces, which are younger looking and more delicate than the elven ones, even if they all look human.
Posted By: A_va Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 08/01/21 09:02 PM
Complaining about beauty was not the purpose of this thread. The purpose was to discuss Elven feautures and/or the lack of them. Goldberry made her first post absolutely clear.
Posted By: Vallis Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 08/01/21 09:59 PM
Originally Posted by Kadajko
Originally Posted by Vallis
Except it's not. The preset used in OP is head 5 for the half high elf, aka the most baby faced and youngest looking of the half high elf presets. Which is exactly why I called OP out for it, using the most babyfaced preset in the roster to prove that half elves look more "delicate" and elven than the full elves. The preset in the photo above is head 1 for the half high elf and looks drastically older, and very much human, despite some claiming the half elves look "too elf" apparently, i'm like besides the ears, where? LOL

Fair enough, my bad. The face expression and the beard made me see the other face. I agree that all faces look human and should be slightly elvenized. That said you were talking about faces looking good while showing off half-elven faces, which are younger looking and more delicate than the elven ones, even if they all look human.

No harm done, anyway I agree with the first half of your post, although there already are half elf presets that look more elven, though limited choices, I feel they tried to diversify them, you have half elves like preset 1 looking closer to human, and then you have 2-3 (I believe) looking more angular and "pointy" (lol) like the full elves. Which honestly is how it should be. Mixed races don't all look the same, and some half elves should look closer to human and others closer to elven. We will no doubt get more presets with updates, but hopefully they don't compromise the ones they already have. I for one, love the head 1
Posted By: Starlights Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 08/01/21 11:53 PM
Originally Posted by Kadajko
Most of us just want equality tbh. If there are a lot of beautiful female faces, there should be as many beautiful male faces, if there are a lot of old male faces, there should be a lot of old female faces, if an armor shows buttcheeks it should show buttcheeks on males and females both, if an armor looks practical it should also look practical on both etc. Zero problems with sexy, so long as it is for both sexes in equal amount AND ( this is important ) exactly the same way.

That ! I agree and straight to what I meant to say. We are on the same page.

Originally Posted by Nyloth
As a girl who love games, this is a very scary thought for me during modern social movements.

I sincerely apologize if I offended or planted some scary thought in your mind. I will remove my post if it's perceived that way. Refer to @Kadajko's comments and hopefully we are ok with that.

-> I agree that half-elves has better faces then the rest of the races - but that should be perceive as a constructive comment/feedback for the dev.
-> The point referring the armor (ref.: Kadajko's comment) should also be perceived as constructive feedback for the dev.
I think that's the best we can come up with before we all end-up on a zoom-call arguing about cosmetics. hehe


OP, this thread is great because we are addressing few points that are interrelated (dotted-line) to one another within the same thread. This is to your credit.

-S
Posted By: Goldberry Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 09/01/21 03:42 AM
Originally Posted by A_va
Complaining about beauty was not the purpose of this thread. The purpose was to discuss Elven feautures and/or the lack of them. Goldberry made her first post absolutely clear.

Thank youuuu smile

Originally Posted by Vallis
No harm done, anyway I agree with the first half of your post, although there already are half elf presets that look more elven, though limited choices, I feel they tried to diversify them, you have half elves like preset 1 looking closer to human, and then you have 2-3 (I believe) looking more angular and "pointy" (lol) like the full elves. Which honestly is how it should be. Mixed races don't all look the same, and some half elves should look closer to human and others closer to elven. We will no doubt get more presets with updates, but hopefully they don't compromise the ones they already have. I for one, love the head 1

Well, no one here wants half elves changed if that's what you've gathered from the topic. They look just right.

The topic, again, is that DND has a lot of material on elves and Larian so far seems to have largely ignored it. Besides the trance animation when resting... They look, feel, and behave completely human. For example, If you switched Astarion's race for human, little besides his resting animation would have to be changed. This clearly demonstrates that Larian has no interest in portraying elves in a particularly elven way, writting and recording voice lines takes a lot more time and work, so that's a lost cause to me.

But adding a few face presets for them to have a more classic, dnd feel, is a lot easier and achievable smile
This thread is drifting, and not in a good direction. Please try to keep to the topic in the title.

We all know that thread drift occurs, but the question of sexism in gaming is probably too large and contentious to remain a simple diversion. Topics concerning sexism (and other 'isms) have a worrying habit of becoming confrontational and toxic. It is a legitimate area of discussion* but this is not the place.



*Do note that this particular area of the forum is for discussion of Larian's BG3 game and not the wider gaming hobby. The RPG Chat area is more suited for discussion about perceived sexism in gaming generally. Note though that even there any descent into toxicity will result in the usual measures being taken.
I apologize for previous offtop.

And on the topic, probably, such faces were added to the elves for a change, to please more players. For the same reason, all companions are bisexual. I don't see it as a big problem if Larian just adds more faces. Everyone plays as they want and by whom they want. They also have the biggest ears in the game, very hot.
"Biggest ears in the game, very hot" xD that's something I can agree with

I also think they should keep the old elf faces but add some new ones, yeah. As long as the new ones are more elven. Makes more sense & pleases (almost) everyone.
To add to the OP, I absolutely agree that there is an issue in the representation of the pure Elf races. smile

The OP perfectly documented the issue, and without some kind of upvote, I'll just say I agree with them.
Keep the better old faces (Or all of them. The assets are already made, might as well), add new ones that are authentic to moon/sun/wood elves, add meaningful racial dialogue between Elven PCs and NPCs as well as Drow NPCs. Even Dwarves and Elves have history that's fun and so very *typical* of fantasy - completely opposed societies and values, but an acknowledgement of the good in one another and often counting each other as allies in a crisis.

The game as it stands feels like a loosely adapted Faerun setting where a great many characters have been sanded down to accommodate a more generic and less geopolitically nuanced experience (Is that the right term?). It's not been uncommon to see Faerun played as cosmopolitan in my experience, especially in the case of player characters and who they're surrounded by, but I would like to see what makes Faerun itself retained, besides the pure visuals... which they didn't get quite right all across the board either, hence this thread. A good thing we're only in early access, eh? grin

Cultures and their differences from ours are an important and defining distinction of the setting that I adore seeing. I am not, as many here have put it, playing in a fantasy world to draw parallels with my real life. There can be relatability with something utterly alien so long as it's written well, and I still have confidence in Larian's writing team despite not really *feeling* the story so far.
Originally Posted by Vallis
I disagree. I play a Half elf and they look pretty damn human-esque. The pure elves are easy to tell apart as all their features are more elongated. Half-elves practically look human with slight elven angularity, ears and eyes. The half elves don't all look alike either, that's just one preset, and you chose literally the youngest looking preset of them all for the arguement.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Originally Posted by DumbleDorf
I'm pretty sure I already said it all summarised as 'You can make better looking characters in Oblivion'.

Because the point is that by current standards, Oblivion actually had very atrocious character models and it didn't age well at all, yet somehow BG3 manages to still be worse in 2020.

The small pick of default faces pretty much all look the same. Select a beard then switch through each face and you can barely see any difference at all. They are not sufficient to meet each player's choices or desires in how they want their character to look.

A fully customisable character creation engine like in Oblivion and Skyrim should pretty much be a mandatory requirement for new AAA RPGs.

Sorry, but you can't be serious. There's not a single Elder Scrolls game or Bethesda game in general where you can create an actually good looking NON-nord character without mods. This character creator is miles above ANYTHING in a vanilla Bethesda game. They have the WORST character models in gaming. You could not even create an imperial or breton character in Skyrim without them looking inbred. Of the human presets, only one Nord one came close to looking anything like a normal human. So if you wanted an aesthetic male in Skyrim, you had to play as the one nord preset. There's a reason countless preset overhaul mods exist for skyrim. Almost no one likes their take on character models. All the human race presets in Skyrim were absolutely horrble, and the elves were so awful looking you didn't want to play one. Oblivion was even worse with those potato heads. In this game I actually would not mind playing an elf/half-elf n actual fact the Half elf looks better than the Humans.

As for your small selection complaint. Say it with me. EARLY ACCESS

(APPLAUSE)!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Well said, Vallis!
Originally Posted by Vallis
Originally Posted by Starlights
Originally Posted by Goldberry
Quote
Actually, you guys are going a little too off-topic now.

Well, comparing photos between genders will inevitably bring something sexist along the way and that's how I felt invited to come n' chipping in.

Originally Posted by Goldberry
Quote
I still think that all of the half elven heads are better than all of the elven heads.

Perhaps it respect some universal rules about beauty, mixte-race "generally" has a better percentage for beauty. That was established by Darwin, though the study is a bit more complex than that.

Nonetheless, female characters seems to be design to attracts the boys & the lunatics with false belief that 80% of gamers are boys .. and the few of us girls, (according to that false assumption) we get the last pic in the bag of faces for male characters IF we want the equivalent.

That, perhaps, is a sign that there's a need for more female game developers. If we had more female dev, there would be more equity between genders and to the point, between races - that's quite an assumption I'm making here.

So basically, once again, with the example about the Githyanki's armour, it would have the same look on a female character or male character - either we see the butt cheek for both male/female or both are fully padded or adjusted the same way. (I don't like the fully padded, neither the "butt cheek" version, I would adjusted so it's not that "sexy" and it's not that big either).

-S

Why are people complaining about beautiful women? We like to look at attractive people, we are a vain species, pretending otherwise is coping, the Men are just as attractive in this game so I don't see the arguement. It seems like people are less concerned with elves looking too human, and more concerned over half elves "looking better" than actual elves in their opinion, because they BOTH look pretty human. Video games should not serve as platforms to boost players own self esteem, there's people to talk to for that, they should look representitive of the artist direction. I honestly feel for these developers, because they're trying to portray their own artistic vision, while having to deal with the various people with their own personal issues who think the artist's work should cater to them specifically and be their own personal therapy so to speak, and when you have a bunch of different people wanting different things specifically catered to them, that direction gets lost, part of the reason these big AAA developers have been stumbling in this era of games is listening TOO much to player feedback, or atleast not the right kind of constructive feedback, rather they listen to the people who think they should make their game. Trying to make games for everyone, instead of the game they set out to make. "Why isn't this character this sexuality I wanted to romance that one!" "why does this character look this way, it should look like how I want". This not only damages characters in the development process, but the entire game as a whole. Anyway having more female developers =/= a better product, afterall more females at CD projekt red worked on Cyberpunk 2077 than they did on Witcher 3, and one of those games became one of the biggest rpg's of all time, the other, the biggest blunder since Fallout 76. So gender does not make a product good. Talent does, only talent

Apologies for the mini rant, but i'm just tired of this rhetoric, this rhetoric has already destroyed many of the AAA developers from Bioware to Bethesda to now CD Projekt and people insist on destroying the few we have left making quality games. Gamers need to get back to constructive criticisms, gaming mechanics, combat, writing etc etc and stop trying to turn the games into their own personal mod. Just play Skyrim instead and you can morph the entire game how you see fit LOL

But yes, most gamers are boys that's a fact, infact despite Ubisoft making Kassandra of Assassins Creed the canon character 80% of players still chose Alexios. And it was the same for Mass Effect and Commander Shepard, despite how hard they pushed femshep after 3. What does that tell you. Keep in mind here no one is saying girls aren't or can't be gamers, boys can play with barbies too. But the fact is, barbies are by and large sold to girls.

Don't apologize, Vallis. You are the one who has been making the most sense here, and you express yourself very clearly in your writing, so kudos! And yeah, I agree 100% w everything you said.

"Gender does not make a product good. Talent does, only talent." Truth!
Originally Posted by Vallis
Originally Posted by Talking Skull
[quote=Vallis]Apologies for the mini rant, but i'm just tired of this rhetoric, this rhetoric has already destroyed many of the AAA developers from Bioware to Bethesda to now CD Projekt and people insist on destroying the few we have left making quality games. Gamers need to get back to constructive criticisms, gaming mechanics, combat, writing etc etc and stop trying to turn the games into their own personal mod. Just play Skyrim instead and you can morph the entire game how you see fit LOL

But yes, most gamers are boys that's a fact, infact despite Ubisoft making Kassandra of Assassins Creed the canon character 80% of players still chose Alexios. And it was the same for Mass Effect and Commander Shepard, despite how hard they pushed femshep after 3. What does that tell you. Keep in mind here no one is saying girls aren't or can't be gamers, boys can play with barbies too. But the fact is, barbies are by in large sold to girls.
I completely agree with this. I'd also like to remind the people who brought up sexism to look at the media catering to women and tell me how often they see hot, shirtless guys fawning over a totally average female protagonist and how that's any different from games with a mostly male audience having their females look attractive. Games cater to their main demographics. Both sexes like eye candy, both have self insert protags, who cares? There are games out there with fat, covered up women where everything is pastel and no one is sexy if you want them but those games fail to bring in an audience for a reason.

100%, and even the super crazy tumblr-types would agree in secret, despite how much some push unnattractive people as ideal in their art and protest beauty, they don't actually believe that nor want those types and often times, desire people well above their own station. Before the tumblr nsfw ban almost every nsfw blog was of hot jock males LOL

Originally Posted by Kadajko
Originally Posted by Vallis
Your subjective opinion vs other peoples subjective opinion.

There is nothing subjective about this, this is objectively handsome, just as brad pitt is objectively handsome, you can say he's not your personal taste, but you must acknowledge he is objectively beautiful. Beauty is not an opinion. Some people are objectively sexy, and others objectively repulsive. Attraction though, is subjective.

[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]

I rest my case. LOL, Vallis, every time I'm about to reply, you've already typed what was on my mind. Perfect.
Originally Posted by MarcoNeves
I rest my case. LOL, Vallis, every time I'm about to reply, you've already typed what was on my mind. Perfect.

Can you stop spamming, please? That topic has been brought elsewhere. You can continue worshipping Vallis there xD
I'd kind of like it if all the current elf/halfelf portraits were available to both for PC character creation. I get why there are differences but, I want one as an Elf, and probs others want different ones the other way
I am used to the stype of elves Goldberry pointed out in the first post as well. I had several moments in the game where I was confused as I thought a character was meant to be elven but looked human. Then saw the pointy ears and was confused again. (Asatrion and Halsin are examples of some of the main offenders for me and where I only realized they were elven due to meta knowledge and noticing their ears)

Elves should, lore-wise, look almost alien to humans in a way with their own defining features rather than just humans with pointy ears. They are Humanoids still, sure. But so are goblins, orcs, dwarves, tieflings *using the ones represented in game for the sake of the argument), etc. That does not mean they should resemble humans

+1 to Goldberry's post
I like how elves look in the game. It is great to add more head options for character creation, but I wouldn't want the existing head options removed or changed. I also don't want Astarion's or Halsin's design to change.
I should likely add, while I think Halsin and Astarion are offenders in my opinion to what elves -should- look like, they are not neccesarily bad design. They just strike me as half-elven more than full elven, going by lore and how FR has elves represented. In light of that, I think especially Halsin is a cool design that fits a half-elf really well.
Originally Posted by TheFoxWhisperer
I should likely add, while I think Halsin and Astarion are offenders in my opinion to what elves -should- look like, they are not neccesarily bad design. They just strike me as half-elven more than full elven, going by lore and how FR has elves represented. In light of that, I think especially Halsin is a cool design that fits a half-elf really well.
What the fuck?! Halsin is an Elf? I did not even notice he was Elf. Well true some Elven characters in this game do not look enough Elven.


Halsin was never member of my party though I did meet him:

I killed all the Golbin leaders including the Drow also on first try no load without any help from Halsin as level 3 then became level 4 and killed everyone in courtyard or the fortress first try no load needed. When I finally found place where Halsin should have been found traces that Halsin had escaped in Bear form. I met Halsin in Thiefling Village after I killed all the Goblin Leaders.

+2 to Goldberry's post
Originally Posted by Icelyn
I like how elves look in the game. It is great to add more head options for character creation, but I wouldn't want the existing head options removed or changed. I also don't want Astarion's or Halsin's design to change.

Those guys are both elves? Halsin?!?

lol
Originally Posted by Scribe
Originally Posted by Icelyn
I like how elves look in the game. It is great to add more head options for character creation, but I wouldn't want the existing head options removed or changed. I also don't want Astarion's or Halsin's design to change.

Those guys are both elves? Halsin?!?

lol
Halsin is the awesomest elf! biggrin
The muscle beach area of Rivendell didn't get a lot of play in the Lord of the Rings, but I think several chapters of the Silmarillion are devoted to Elf swoleness.
Thats comical. Honestly it is. Elves look more buff and larger than humans. Which, based on the PHB I'm looking at, is flat wrong.

Please Larian. Fix this stuff...
Yes, DOS Elves, not D&D nor BG Elves
Originally Posted by Scribe
Thats comical. Honestly it is. Elves look more buff and larger than humans. Which, based on the PHB I'm looking at, is flat wrong.

Please Larian. Fix this stuff...

The question is why did they get it so wrong in the first place? It's like the source material wasn't even consulted.
“Rule of cool”. Designing something that is considered neat and cool rather than what fits the setting. It sums up a lot of things in the writing imo but this is about elves and not that.
That's a good point. It frustrates me though, if it ain't broke don't fit it, surely?
Originally Posted by TheFoxWhisperer
I should likely add, while I think Halsin and Astarion are offenders in my opinion to what elves -should- look like, they are not neccesarily bad design. They just strike me as half-elven more than full elven, going by lore and how FR has elves represented. In light of that, I think especially Halsin is a cool design that fits a half-elf really well.

Agreed smile

Originally Posted by TheFoxWhisperer
“Rule of cool”. Designing something that is considered neat and cool rather than what fits the setting. It sums up a lot of things in the writing imo but this is about elves and not that.

Agreed again, unfortunately. I was expecting some elven lines or interactions with my character, but there were very few, and disappointing at that. It might be just too early, maybe more flavour will be added to all races, there are a lot of them after all, it is a lot of work.
Originally Posted by Etruscan
Originally Posted by Scribe
Thats comical. Honestly it is. Elves look more buff and larger than humans. Which, based on the PHB I'm looking at, is flat wrong.

Please Larian. Fix this stuff...

The question is why did they get it so wrong in the first place? It's like the source material wasn't even consulted.

It couldnt have been. It literally could not be more clear.

Straight from the Players Handbook.

With their unearthly grace and fine features, elves
appear hauntingly beautiful to humans and members
of many other races. They are slightly shorter than
humans on average, ranging from well under 5 feet
tall to just over 6 feet. They are more slender than
humans, weighing only 100 to 145 pounds.


Halsin, is not an elf.
Halsin is an elf blessed by Silvanus. smile
If this was a D&D game, I'd be fine with that. This is a forgotten realms, Baldur's Gate game. Elves should not be jacked, bigger than the Player Character can ever be. It is absurd.
maybe he's a werebear, just being a shapeshifter has to account for something .
At least they are not the ungodly horrors from DoS2, omg the depiction of elves in that game. I think someone in the upper echelon of Larian hates elves. They have them eat people, turn them into trees, make their stomachs look like they’ve gained and lost weight 100 times, and omg are they ugly, there’s 1 good female face, and every male face makes me never want to eat again.

Elves should be hauntingly and enticingly beautiful. Even if the depictions of them have changed. The lore hasn’t. Half elves are one of the most rampant half-breed in Faerun, because everyone lusts after them, for that very reason. Elves, the original viagra, lol.
Posted By: VonFoxFire Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 30/01/21 08:57 AM
I agree the elven faces lack that other worldly beauty they're known for. They look like someone slapped some pointy ears on a wide range of human faces and called it a day. Other than pointy ears there's nothing that makes them stand out as Elven to me. None of that arrogant superiority aura you'd expect from an elf. Normally I'm all for playing elves but these faces just give me the whole I'm playing a humans with pointy ears feeling and I quickly lose interest in them.
Posted By: Tarlonniel Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 30/01/21 02:14 PM
Originally Posted by Seiryu Suta
At least they are not the ungodly horrors from DoS2, omg the depiction of elves in that game.

That depiction of elves actually gave me hope when I heard that Larian was doing BG3. Because while I didn't like their version of elves at all, it was steadily and consistently maintained, and above all they did not look or feel human. Something in Larian's world building has failed between then and now.
Posted By: TheFoxWhisperer Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 30/01/21 02:59 PM
I kind of liked the take DOS2 had on elves. It was something very different, something unique. Something definatly not done before as far as I know and clearly not Tolkien-ish elves. It worked in the custom setting they created. Rule of Cool is a thing to play with in your own custom setting because it is your own custom setting.

But elves (or Tel'Quessir if you will) in Forgotten Realms are already established and regardless of what sort of elves someone might prefer... their lore as well as image and appearance. To just make them look human with pointy ears is kind of doing a discredit to elves as they are established. Rule of Cool does not really work with this, as it can just clash with lore and immersion.
Posted By: Scribe Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 30/01/21 05:25 PM
Originally Posted by TheFoxWhisperer
I kind of liked the take DOS2 had on elves. It was something very different, something unique. Something definatly not done before as far as I know and clearly not Tolkien-ish elves. It worked in the custom setting they created. Rule of Cool is a thing to play with in your own custom setting because it is your own custom setting.

But elves (or Tel'Quessir if you will) in Forgotten Realms are already established and regardless of what sort of elves someone might prefer... their lore as well as image and appearance. To just make them look human with pointy ears is kind of doing a discredit to elves as they are established. Rule of Cool does not really work with this, as it can just clash with lore and immersion.

Thats the thing. I dont care if someone makes their elves different, but this is not that game. This is Forgotten Realms. Elves have a set of attributes. A description. Halsin is not an elf.
Posted By: Seiryu Suta Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 30/01/21 05:25 PM
Originally Posted by Tarlonniel
Originally Posted by Seiryu Suta
At least they are not the ungodly horrors from DoS2, omg the depiction of elves in that game.

That depiction of elves actually gave me hope when I heard that Larian was doing BG3. Because while I didn't like their version of elves at all, it was steadily and consistently maintained, and above all they did not look or feel human. Something in Larian's world building has failed between then and now.
Originally Posted by TheFoxWhisperer
I kind of liked the take DOS2 had on elves. It was something very different, something unique. Something definatly not done before as far as I know and clearly not Tolkien-ish elves. It worked in the custom setting they created. Rule of Cool is a thing to play with in your own custom setting because it is your own custom setting.

But elves (or Tel'Quessir if you will) in Forgotten Realms are already established and regardless of what sort of elves someone might prefer... their lore as well as image and appearance. To just make them look human with pointy ears is kind of doing a discredit to elves as they are established. Rule of Cool does not really work with this, as it can just clash with lore and immersion.

Oh don't get me wrong I actually love what they did with the Elven lore, in DoS. However, the male faces look like emaciated Goblins, and the stomachs creep me out. I get that it was suppose to look like bark, but it kind of makes my skin crawl. The eating for memories is actually pretty kewl, and there is a real world belief that you gain someone's essence, from eating them. Then there is IZombie which was awesome, where zombies could see your memories from eating your brains. However, someone calling your race cannibals is something someone who hated them would say. I still stand behind someone in the upper echelon hating them, lol. Its hard for you to feel sexy when your stomach is covered in giant stretch mark scars. I had to let go of "my elves", and learn to appreciate them as a different universe's elves.

"These aren't the Elves you're looking for."
Halsin is the elf I was looking for! claphands
Originally Posted by Icelyn
Halsin is the elf I was looking for! claphands

Yep! All of us sometimes dreamed about big and strong elf, and not a typical "scientist" elf type.
The elves in Baldur's Gate 3 resemble Tel-Quessir in the art from the wiki page. Forgotten Realms Wiki

One of them even resembles Halsin.

Third from the left

The main differences are that male Drow are too tall in Baldur's Gate 3 and elves don't have a v-shape to their eyes. If the elves do get a slight v to their eyeline, I'd say they're spot on in Baldur's Gate 3.
Originally Posted by Nyloth
Originally Posted by Icelyn
Halsin is the elf I was looking for! claphands

Yep! All of us sometimes dreamed about big and strong elf, and not a typical "scientist" elf type.

May I introduce the two of you to my dear old pal Orion?
Originally Posted by Nyloth
Originally Posted by Icelyn
Halsin is the elf I was looking for! claphands

Yep! All of us sometimes dreamed about big and strong elf, and not a typical "scientist" elf type.
What nonsense is this? You are a minority that wished for an Elf like Halsin grin. I did not even notice that Halsin was an Elf when I did meet him. The only thing that makes sense he is an Elf that the leaders of this faction are Elves:


Halsin is perhaps in his bulking form like a Werebear.

I am even so fan of traditional Elf look that when I created my Wood Elf I changed the skin from green to white smile.
Here a picture of my Wood Elf when he becomes level 4:
[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]
Well though my favorite Cleric domain has not yet been introduced the Light Domain is ok for me for now currently if Cleric.

Here is the look of my dream partner she is actually Half-Elf, but certainly she looks more Elven then say Halsin.
[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]
[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

What me racist on green skin? No it is not that I find Lae Zel so attactive I could spend a night with her in real life. Githyanki though are not Elves and my ultimate dream partner in looks is not Lae Zel. Can I find Drow dark skinned and white haired attractive so I could spend a night with a drow woman? Yes!
Originally Posted by Terminator2020
Originally Posted by Nyloth
Originally Posted by Icelyn
Halsin is the elf I was looking for! claphands

Yep! All of us sometimes dreamed about big and strong elf, and not a typical "scientist" elf type.
What nonsense is this? You are a minority that wished for an Elf like Halsin grin. I did not even notice that Halsin was an Elf when I did meet him. The only thing that makes sense he is an Elf that the leaders of this faction are

Yes, Halsin looks specific for elf. But you know what? This is what makes him interesting and attractive. If he wasn't an elf and was, for example, a human, he would look "ordinary".

Personally, I'm tired of all those typical elves in fantasy games. Usually they are scientists, mage, all so thin and refined... I'm very glad that Astarion is a bastard and asshole, and Halsin is a big and reliable guy, and they are both elves. Not in every game you will have such experience with elves. I understand that someone wants to create a "typical" elf for themselves. I respect their choice. You just need more types of faces and maybe a few different body type. But I don't want change original characters to "typical standards".

I've already seen someone ask to make Astarion "younger", my God.
Halsin has a rather unique look, not necessarily bad but.. also not elven going by Forgotten Realms lore and how elves are described. He can pass as half-elf, sure. But full elf is a stretch.

Elves can still be muscular and well toned wile fitting the lore FR has. And, regardless of it being a preferred look or not, this IS the setting we are working in. It is like wanting to have 8ft tall dwarves that speak in Japanese accents, just because it is "different" and unique.

I have yet to see any elf "scientists" as well, elves do not look like that at all. Except maybe in the Dragon Age setting, elves still have some muscle to them, though it is more the dexterous kind rather than the bulky muscles. It is like a professional swimmer or dancer compared to a weightlifter. Halsin just goes full weightlifter mode.
Originally Posted by TheFoxWhisperer
Halsin has a rather unique look, not necessarily bad but.. also not elven going by Forgotten Realms lore and how elves are described. He can pass as half-elf, sure. But full elf is a stretch.

Elves can still be muscular and well toned wile fitting the lore FR has. And, regardless of it being a preferred look or not, this IS the setting we are working in. It is like wanting to have 8ft tall dwarves that speak in Japanese accents, just because it is "different" and unique.

I have yet to see any elf "scientists" as well, elves do not look like that at all. Except maybe in the Dragon Age setting, elves still have some muscle to them, though it is more the dexterous kind rather than the bulky muscles. It is like a professional swimmer or dancer compared to a weightlifter. Halsin just goes full weightlifter mode.

I agree with you in everything. That said, I don't really care all that much about Halsin's bodytype. It's a stretch, a long stretch, but as a wood elf (who knows, maybe even wild elf) druid I can tolerate the bulk. What I don't like is the lack of facial elven features, that is what bugs me the most with all elves so far.

Besides the obvious fact that they are also portrayed as pointy eared humans in every other regard.
the elf i made with head 5, black raven hair and dusk tone 6 skin looked more like a half-orc than an elf.
Originally Posted by Nyloth
Originally Posted by Terminator2020
Originally Posted by Nyloth
Originally Posted by Icelyn
Halsin is the elf I was looking for! claphands

Yep! All of us sometimes dreamed about big and strong elf, and not a typical "scientist" elf type.
What nonsense is this? You are a minority that wished for an Elf like Halsin grin. I did not even notice that Halsin was an Elf when I did meet him. The only thing that makes sense he is an Elf that the leaders of this faction are

Yes, Halsin looks specific for elf. But you know what? This is what makes him interesting and attractive. If he wasn't an elf and was, for example, a human, he would look "ordinary".

Personally, I'm tired of all those typical elves in fantasy games. Usually they are scientists, mage, all so thin and refined... I'm very glad that Astarion is a bastard and asshole, and Halsin is a big and reliable guy, and they are both elves. Not in every game you will have such experience with elves. I understand that someone wants to create a "typical" elf for themselves. I respect their choice. You just need more types of faces and maybe a few different body type. But I don't want change original characters to "typical standards".

I've already seen someone ask to make Astarion "younger", my God.

Elf means something within the Forgotten Realms. This isnt the game for breaking out of the 'expected' look. This is a Forgotten Realms game. Elves, are "Elves". They are not huge body builders. Its simply wrong.

Like, you can want buff hulking elves. Thats not my issue. This game is not one where 'Our Elves are Different'. This game, they have height and weight that is codified. Its just not correct for the game at all.

Considering everything else that is fundamentally wrong, I shouldnt be surprised, but still, I am.
Originally Posted by Scribe
Elf means something within the Forgotten Realms. This isnt the game for breaking out of the 'expected' look. This is a Forgotten Realms game. Elves, are "Elves". They are not huge body builders. Its simply wrong.

Like, you can want buff hulking elves. Thats not my issue. This game is not one where 'Our Elves are Different'. This game, they have height and weight that is codified. Its just not correct for the game at all.

Considering everything else that is fundamentally wrong, I shouldnt be surprised, but still, I am.

Well, you don't think they'll completely redesign Astarion and Halsin for you, do you? I hope that you have already realized this.
It is a fairly easy fix all in all, technically speaking: Make them half-elven. Problem solved, and no inconsistensies really with the story (as it is a minor change, with a big impact on lore/immersion)
Originally Posted by Nyloth
Originally Posted by Scribe
Elf means something within the Forgotten Realms. This isnt the game for breaking out of the 'expected' look. This is a Forgotten Realms game. Elves, are "Elves". They are not huge body builders. Its simply wrong.

Like, you can want buff hulking elves. Thats not my issue. This game is not one where 'Our Elves are Different'. This game, they have height and weight that is codified. Its just not correct for the game at all.

Considering everything else that is fundamentally wrong, I shouldnt be surprised, but still, I am.

Well, you don't think they'll completely redesign Astarion and Halsin for you, do you? I hope that you have already realized this.

No, you simply call them Half Elves, as they should be. I have less issue with Astarion anyway. Halsin however? Thats a bad joke.
I think an Elf with Halsin's bodytype only really becomes an issue if it's commonplace, the median strength for all elves should be 8, nothing about that means there can't be strength 18 elves, it's just exceptional.
More of an issue to me (and a minor one at that) and I think more in line with the thread, is how square his face looks, there doesn't seem to be much difference between human, half-elf, and elf facial structure, but that has to be a result of them using real people as models.
Originally Posted by Sozz
I think an Elf with Halsin's bodytype only really becomes an issue if it's commonplace, the median strength for all elves should be 8, nothing about that means there can't be strength 18 elves, it's just exceptional.
Agree! smile
There is no correlation between char's appearance and their strength ability - Lae'zel's is 17 and Halsin's 16...

In 5e, if you decide to roll for your char's height/weight, it is literally impossible to get a wood elf (the heaviest of the bunch) as buff as Halsin is. smile I don't really mind the buffness itself though, makes some sense for someone shapeshifting into a bear. He's just not elf by face features etc., half-elf at best... smile
I'm going to mod him to be a half elf. Its idiotic as is.
Totally agree with the topic
Originally Posted by Scribe
I'm going to mod him to be a half elf. Its idiotic as is.

When this mod comes into existence, please post it on Nexus.
Originally Posted by Tarlonniel
Originally Posted by Scribe
I'm going to mod him to be a half elf. Its idiotic as is.

When this mod comes into existence, please post it on Nexus.

Certainly, I cannot imagine if its exposed in the engine it would be hard at all, but it will put my mind at rest.
Originally Posted by Seiryu Suta
At least they are not the ungodly horrors from DoS2, omg the depiction of elves in that game. I think someone in the upper echelon of Larian hates elves. They have them eat people, turn them into trees, make their stomachs look like they’ve gained and lost weight 100 times, and omg are they ugly, there’s 1 good female face, and every male face makes me never want to eat again.

Elves should be hauntingly and enticingly beautiful. Even if the depictions of them have changed. The lore hasn’t. Half elves are one of the most rampant half-breed in Faerun, because everyone lusts after them, for that very reason. Elves, the original viagra, lol.

+1. DOS2 really disrespected elves and I was disgusted with how similar they look to the ants in the movie Antz.
Originally Posted by Seiryu Suta
They have them eat people, turn them into trees

I'm sorry but that's just what real elves do
Originally Posted by Dexai
Originally Posted by Seiryu Suta
They have them eat people, turn them into trees

I'm sorry but that's just what real elves do

I thought real elves bake cookies.
Only poison cookies that they hand out to children.
Originally Posted by Dexai
Only poison cookies that they hand out to children.

That's ridiculous, elves don't poison children. They steal children to be their slaves for all eternity. Such fair folk they are.
That's just the nice ones
Originally Posted by Roethen
DOS2 really disrespected elves and I was disgusted with how similar they look to the ants in the movie Antz.
What do you expect? You really can't portray a tall, mostly fair skinned race with superior airs - without somehow bringing them low in this political climate. The lizards got the honor of arrogance and advanced society while the elves were made into tribal tree huggers. All together more lenient than how Dragon Age dealt with their offensive knife-ears.
Originally Posted by Terminator2020
Originally Posted by Nyloth
Originally Posted by Icelyn
Halsin is the elf I was looking for! claphands

Yep! All of us sometimes dreamed about big and strong elf, and not a typical "scientist" elf type.
What nonsense is this? You are a minority that wished for an Elf like Halsin grin. I did not even notice that Halsin was an Elf when I did meet him. The only thing that makes sense he is an Elf that the leaders of this faction are Elves:


Halsin is perhaps in his bulking form like a Werebear.

I am even so fan of traditional Elf look that when I created my Wood Elf I changed the skin from green to white smile.
Here a picture of my Wood Elf when he becomes level 4:
[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]
Well though my favorite Cleric domain has not yet been introduced the Light Domain is ok for me for now currently if Cleric.

Here is the look of my dream partner she is actually Half-Elf, but certainly she looks more Elven then say Halsin.
[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]
[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

What me racist on green skin? No it is not that I find Lae Zel so attactive I could spend a night with her in real life. Githyanki though are not Elves and my ultimate dream partner in looks is not Lae Zel. Can I find Drow dark skinned and white haired attractive so I could spend a night with a drow woman? Yes!
This or Belle Delphine as Elf that I can fuck smile. Yes I do like Belle Delphine cool! You can use google.com and find "Belle Delphine pictures as Elf". She is like a young (18+ and she is 21 right now) Elf woman.
Originally Posted by Scribe
I'm going to mod him to be a half elf. Its idiotic as is.
Haha. I'm still sticking to my early theory that someone at Larian swapped elves (which they portray as more buff) for half-elves (portrayed more slender elven) by mistake and has since just doubled down.
Originally Posted by Terminator2020
This or Belle Delphine as Elf that I can fuck smile. Yes I do like Belle Delphine cool! You can use google.com and find "Belle Delphine pictures as Elf". She is like a young (18+ and she is 21 right now) Elf woman.

Uuuh... What? I guess you kinda looked like someone who would drink bathwater.


Originally Posted by Roethen
+1. DOS2 really disrespected elves and I was disgusted with how similar they look to the ants in the movie Antz.

Actually. While I was put off by their appeareance at first, as soon as I met the first elf and I visited the elf refugee cave, I felt compelled to recreate my character as an elf. Yes, the appeareance was disgusting, yes, the cannibalism was disgusting (yet much better done than elder scrolls) but they surely succeeded at making elves feel like a race of their own. They did not feel like humans with pointy ears, and that I think is far more important than appeareance. That is one of the reasons I was thrilled of Larian taking over the development of BG3, I was looking forward to the racial nuances. Which so far, do not exist.
Originally Posted by Goldberry
the cannibalism was disgusting (yet much better done than elder scrolls)

Lol what? Those are fighting words
Originally Posted by Goldberry
Originally Posted by Terminator2020
This or Belle Delphine as Elf that I can fuck smile. Yes I do like Belle Delphine cool! You can use google.com and find "Belle Delphine pictures as Elf". She is like a young (18+ and she is 21 right now) Elf woman.

Uuuh... What? I guess you kinda looked like someone who would drink bathwater.


Originally Posted by Roethen
+1. DOS2 really disrespected elves and I was disgusted with how similar they look to the ants in the movie Antz.

Actually. While I was put off by their appeareance at first, as soon as I met the first elf and I visited the elf refugee cave, I felt compelled to recreate my character as an elf. Yes, the appeareance was disgusting, yes, the cannibalism was disgusting (yet much better done than elder scrolls) but they surely succeeded at making elves feel like a race of their own. They did not feel like humans with pointy ears, and that I think is far more important than appeareance. That is one of the reasons I was thrilled of Larian taking over the development of BG3, I was looking forward to the racial nuances. Which so far, do not exist.
"What? I guess you kinda looked like someone who would drink bathwater. "
Well I like her free to see pictures on Internet and music on youtube. That said I have not paid any money or even buy bathwater or anything else. I have not given any money to her. I only enjoy her for free. I do have money (not even near poor), but I want more money if you want talk about this then please talk in this (it is offtopic in this thread):
Discussion about real life, TV series or movies She does sometimes look like an Elf woman. There are not so many people that even try look like an Elf.


I do like you want that Elves should be sometimes look more like Elves. Well and yes I have seen
The Lord of the Rings (film series)
movies and I do like them very much!
Originally Posted by Dexai
Originally Posted by Goldberry
the cannibalism was disgusting (yet much better done than elder scrolls)

Lol what? Those are fighting words

In TES they're cannibals for no reason other than to try and be edgy, to have a 'twist' to the wood elf trope. They revere nature (or Y'ffre, more like) out of fear and are hypocrites about it, such as going as far to find loopholes in their treaty with the forest by hiring other races to fell their trees for them, and hating on insects for... Eating plants... They're just a meme.

At least in Divinity, their cannibalism is actually a part of who they are as a race biologically. It is a way to share memories and knowledge and keep those who passed away still within the collective mind of the community. While I don't really favour the edgy/plottwist kind of elves, and they did not write super elaborate pages of lore, I think that is much more acceptable than eating people because giggles.
That's funny, because I see it the exact other way around. DoS2 Elves are just cannibals for the edge and the "read memories through eating" thing is just silly. Meanwhile, TES wood elves are cannibals for not just cultural but mythical reasons, because of their bestial nature and connection to the Wild Hunt. DoS elves are a weak attempt at making their elves different from the "standard" elf, while the TES subversion has strong ties to the bigger narrative of the setting and tells of their place within it, as well as firm roots to the real world myths that elves are founded in.
DOS2 elves are barely quessir. They're more like dryads that gain knowledge from consuming mortals. Much more fey / classic elf (where elf is just one language's word for faerie), compared to the mer who are far more based off Tolkein's elves.
TES elves aren't anything like Tolkien's, they're DnD through and through. With the exception of their Wood Elves, which again are far more like what you describe DoS elves as than DoS elves themselves. That's what I was getting at with the Wild Hunt and their mythical roots.
Really would like to see more sharper/slender/angular features for the elves in BG3. Also otherwordly almond shaped eyes! Hopefully this is addressed in some ways before the full release. As of now they just look like regular humans with pointy ears in my opinion. Doesn't look like elves at all for me.

Looking forward to getting this game!
Originally Posted by Kurre
Really would like to see more sharper/slender/angular features for the elves in BG3. Also otherwordly almond shaped eyes! Hopefully this is addressed in some ways before the full release. As of now they just look like regular humans with pointy ears in my opinion. Doesn't look like elves at all for me.

Looking forward to getting this game!

DnD elves have ( mostly ) always been "short skinny humans with pointy ears", so your preference wouldn't really fit.

Not sure where the "angular elf" even originated. There were a number of "angular" character images in 1970s and 1980s fantasy art, but that was artistic style more than the race depicted. Maybe it was Warhammer that drove the trend, wanting to have something distinct.

Personally, I always think of elves as Tolkein depicted them, but the Norse mythology that spawned the light elves and dark elves is a bit blurry on details of appearance, so I guess you can think of them any way you choose.
Originally Posted by etonbears
Originally Posted by Kurre
Really would like to see more sharper/slender/angular features for the elves in BG3. Also otherwordly almond shaped eyes! ... As of now they just look like regular humans with pointy ears in my opinion.

DnD elves have ( mostly ) always been "short skinny humans with pointy ears", so your preference wouldn't really fit.

The entire opening post of this thread is an analysis, in detail and with pictures, of how DnD elves have not been simply humans with pointy ears, focusing specifically on their distinctive angular features and almond shaped eyes, just as Kurre mentioned.
Yeah, I think that all races need some changes to be more unique. But elves are the worse, in my opinion they just don't look like elves in this game.
Posted By: andreasrylander Re: Elf heads and Dwarf beards - 22/04/21 08:13 PM
I do agree with the OP here, the elves so far don't look too unlike humans at all.
High Elves and Wood Elves are a copy paste of 5e, the game doesn't go deep into the diffrent sub-race types of elves (Forgotten Realms) enough IMO.

High Elf
As a high elf, you have a keen mind and a mastery of at least the basics of magic. In many of the worlds of D&D, there are two kinds of high elves. One type (which
includes the gray elves and valley elves of Greyhawk, the Silvanesti of Dragonlance, and the sun elves of the Forgotten Realms) is haughty and reclusive, believing
themselves to be superior to non-elves and even other elves.
The other type (including the high elves of Greyhawk, the Qualinesti of Dragonlance, and the moon elves of the Forgotten Realms) are more common and more
friendly, and often encountered among humans and other races.

The sun elves of Faerûn (also called gold elves or sun-rise elves) have bronze skin and hair of copper, black, or golden blond. Their eyes are golden, silver, or black.

Moon elves (also called silver elves or gray elves) are much paler, with alabaster skin sometimes tinged with blue. They often have hair of silver-white, black, or blue,
but various shades of blond, brown, and red are not uncommon. Their eyes are blue or green and flecked with gold.


Copy/paste from freebe pdf, page: 17

I don't have the info on Eladrin or how they are interpreted in 5e for forgotten realms. 4e which I have info on does a different take on the FR elves since its only elves and eladrin with no subtypes.

My favorite pic of a Eladrin in the forgotten realms phb 4e
[Linked Image from i.pinimg.com]

curious if they make it to bg3 if they will be tossed off to the side like drow or put under elves as a subrace.

edit*this is part of the info I was going to post on the drow thread but decided just to toss it here since this thread is general is more about all elves.
The half elves faces are actually my favorite ones, so if they changed that, they could just put those faces for humans, since I don’t like the current faces for humans, that’s why I keep creating half elves.
I think elves should look different indeed. Because in 5e, they are inhabitants of the Feywild and should be distinct in terms of appearance with the races of the mortal plane, even more so than they used to be in previous editions.

And I agree, the tieflings are the best non humans looking in the game right now. Larian managed to give them a kind of unique appeal and sexiness which befits their devilish origins.
I also agree my biggest gripe is that we have to choose from preset and I absolutely despise that. They wanted us to go wild with the character creator yet they lock us into preset of other people faces. The elves are the most non looking elves ive seen as someone mentioned the half-elf preset look more like an elf than the elf does.
I like my elf pc's face and don't want it to be changed or removed. It would be great to have additional head options, though.
Originally Posted by Kurre
Really would like to see more sharper/slender/angular features for the elves in BG3. Also otherwordly almond shaped eyes! Hopefully this is addressed in some ways before the full release. As of now they just look like regular humans with pointy ears in my opinion. Doesn't look like elves at all for me.

Looking forward to getting this game!

No really, I think the elves are fine. I despise the "jackass" ear elves like in DOS and Warcraft. I am actually really fine with the elves looking more Tolkien (I know, blasphemy right)..
Originally Posted by Lotus
I also agree my biggest gripe is that we have to choose from preset and I absolutely despise that. They wanted us to go wild with the character creator yet they lock us into preset of other people faces. The elves are the most non looking elves ive seen as someone mentioned the half-elf preset look more like an elf than the elf does.

More than likely, and I want to say I read it somewhere. This is not the complete character creator. Supposedly there will be more options when it goes live. If not, that is why I love the mod community.
Posted By: Lethan Re: Elves are not Elven - 24/04/21 10:46 PM
This has my complete support.

Whilst we've gotten used to the LOTR film Elven archtype, I'm moderately sure the original influences are where D&D got their own throw on it... and whilst I'm not against the typical pointy ear humans we have, I'd prefer them to spend the appropriate amount of time on each and every race. Especially given the love they've shown to Tieflings and Dwarves. ( Just need more beards, horns and hair for both parties )

Considering a heavy number of Fae/Fairy races will likely not be added due to them being Small/Tiny/Winged etc; I would like the Fae touched races we do have, to actually look the part! Even if it means morphing/ruining Shadowheart's current face (and it is a nice one) she looks more like a Quarter Elf, not a Half.
Posted By: lilmonster Re: Elves are not Elven - 27/04/21 01:03 AM
Originally Posted by Pandemonica
Originally Posted by Kurre
Really would like to see more sharper/slender/angular features for the elves in BG3. Also otherwordly almond shaped eyes! Hopefully this is addressed in some ways before the full release. As of now they just look like regular humans with pointy ears in my opinion. Doesn't look like elves at all for me.

Looking forward to getting this game!

No really, I think the elves are fine. I despise the "jackass" ear elves like in DOS and Warcraft. I am actually really fine with the elves looking more Tolkien (I know, blasphemy right)..

You are entitled to your opinion, but that does not change the fact that the elves in Forgotten Realms have a specific appearance and, although this changes slightly with each edition of the books, they have retained most of their characteristics. After years of playing D&D in this setting and reading the novels, most of us are really invested in the universe and want it to be represented correctly.
Posted By: Goldberry Re: Elves are not Elven - 02/05/21 02:53 PM
Originally Posted by lilmonster
You are entitled to your opinion, but that does not change the fact that the elves in Forgotten Realms have a specific appearance and, although this changes slightly with each edition of the books, they have retained most of their characteristics. After years of playing D&D in this setting and reading the novels, most of us are really invested in the universe and want it to be represented correctly.

This exactly! Thank you.


Originally Posted by Lethan
This has my complete support.

Whilst we've gotten used to the LOTR film Elven archtype, I'm moderately sure the original influences are where D&D got their own throw on it... and whilst I'm not against the typical pointy ear humans we have, I'd prefer them to spend the appropriate amount of time on each and every race. Especially given the love they've shown to Tieflings and Dwarves. ( Just need more beards, horns and hair for both parties )

Considering a heavy number of Fae/Fairy races will likely not be added due to them being Small/Tiny/Winged etc; I would like the Fae touched races we do have, to actually look the part! Even if it means morphing/ruining Shadowheart's current face (and it is a nice one) she looks more like a Quarter Elf, not a Half.

Right? They really outdid themselves with tieflings. It only stands to show how amazing elves could look if they actually paid them some attention.
Posted By: Nyloth Re: Elves are not Elven - 02/05/21 05:21 PM
Originally Posted by Goldberry
Right?

No. Don't touch Astarion's perfect face.
Also Shadow is a half-elf.
Posted By: Aazo Re: Elves are not Elven - 07/05/21 04:10 AM
Originally Posted by Nyloth
Originally Posted by Goldberry
Right?

No. Don't touch Astarion's perfect face.
Also Shadow is a half-elf.

The problem with Astarian... is he looks like a human with pointy ears, not an elf. At best he would be a half elf. The only male "elf" face that even comes close to looking like an elf is #2. And for female it's #3.
Posted By: Alexandrite Re: Elves are not Elven - 07/05/21 06:16 AM
Originally Posted by Nyloth
Originally Posted by Goldberry
Right?

No. Don't touch Astarion's perfect face.

100% agree! He's perfect just the way he is!
I don't even understand the mods that exist to make him look younger somehow. He's not a teenager, he's got that perfect ageless quality about him.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Elves are not Elven - 07/05/21 08:09 AM
I do wonder if this will be considered. LOTR movies imprinted a new elf image in people's minds. I mean, even elves in Tolkien's world were not supposed to be humans with pointed ears, but after the movies...

I bet Larian didn't even give it much thought. The general public now views elves like this, and it is easier to implement, so...

I say this because until reading this and other posts about elves and drow, I didn't even think about it. I remember seeing the first guy elf model and even thinking, "Ah. I can be Legolas."

Also, thinking back to other video games and such for D&D, I don't think there is much of a difference in those games either between humans and elves.

I'm not saying they shouldn't do something about this. Im just saying that for most people, it will probably go unnoticed. In fact, many non-D&D players might even freak out if elves don't look like humans with pointy ears. You know. "What the crap! Why do all elves look so weird? I wanted to make an elf character who looks like Legolas, not something closer to a Christmas elf."
Posted By: Ragnarök Re: Elves are not Elven - 07/05/21 09:20 AM
I'll second the op, that I consider the male elf faces to be too squarish in BG3. Actually I think the male half elven faces look more elven to me, than the pure elven faces. Astarion is fine, being an elven vampire spawn and not looking like a teengaer, which wouldn't fit. I'm talking about the male elven faces the character creation screen offers, which for me are too squarish.
Posted By: Alexandrite Re: Elves are not Elven - 07/05/21 09:35 AM
Yeah I definitely agree - I grew up with Tolkien's "Lord of the Rings" book, and although the movies weren't my first introduction to fantasy, for a lot of people they were - and that's generally the most popular image of elf-kind that has stuck with people in general. Not to mention Tolkien himself changed the broader perception of elves from "small pixie-like fairy trickster creatures" as in English folklore, to "beautiful, elegant humanoid beings with pointy ears" in the first place.

I see where the die-hard DnD players with particular mental images are coming from, but it's most likely that most players of BG3 come from a generic fantasy/RPG background rather than a DnD-specific background? (I could be wrong!) So it makes sense to appeal to the broader audience that will go "oh, pretty person with pointy ears - ok that's an elf" as opposed to "WTF is that weird fairy/pixie thing?"

That said, there is still room to refine the elven features for player characters. Just add some new face options that are more slender and elegant.

Just leave the elf NPCs alone! laugh they're already awesome.

(Sorry if half of what i said has already been discussed, I'm coming in very late into this thread and haven't read the whole thing.)
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Elves are not Elven - 07/05/21 10:03 AM
Im a little confused why Lord of the Rings should be even relevant here ...
Its completely different setting, in completely different universe, from completely different autor, and with completely different rules. O_o

I mean, dont get me wrong, i know that LotR was kinda iconic Movie for our generation ...
But in game industry, i would dare to say Major fantasy settings are Warcraft or the Elder Scrolls ...
Warcraft is probably kinda too cartonish to be concidered, yet since nobody claimed that "proper elf should have half meter long ears" ... people seem to understand that different settings means different visuals. wink
In Elder Scrolls tho, especialy Skyrim ... elves actualy do have triangle shaped faces, and i never heard about anyone who would have problem with that. O_o
Posted By: Tarlonniel Re: Elves are not Elven - 07/05/21 12:47 PM
Larian had no problem making their elves look very un-Tolkienish in their previous game.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Elves are not Elven - 07/05/21 01:27 PM
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Im a little confused why Lord of the Rings should be even relevant here ...
Its completely different setting, in completely different universe, from completely different autor, and with completely different rules. O_o

I mean, dont get me wrong, i know that LotR was kinda iconic Movie for our generation ...
But in game industry, i would dare to say Major fantasy settings are Warcraft or the Elder Scrolls ...
Warcraft is probably kinda too cartonish to be concidered, yet since nobody claimed that "proper elf should have half meter long ears" ... people seem to understand that different settings means different visuals. wink
In Elder Scrolls tho, especialy Skyrim ... elves actualy do have triangle shaped faces, and i never heard about anyone who would have problem with that. O_o

My point, RagnarokCzD, was that people are used to seeing elves as pointy-eared humans because of the LOTR movies and other media renditions of elves where they are humans with pointy ears. That's all. Most of what they have seen of elves is that image.

The other point I was making by calling out LOTR is that Tolkien's original concept for elves was nothing like humans with pointed ears. His original descriptions were quite different. They were more fairy-like. So the movie and other media's renditions of elves is not even true to Tolkien, who was somewhat of the original basis for elves in D&D.

Anyway, humans with pointy ears is what a lot of people think of, now, when it comes to elves, and that was my point. They don't standardly think of elves as described in D&D, and even a lot of D&D art doesn't depict elves as something different from humans with pointy ears. So, I imagine it didn't even cross Larian's minds. Even if it did, they were probably thinking that anything but human with pointy ears for elves would seem weird to the general audience.
Posted By: Nyloth Re: Elves are not Elven - 07/05/21 03:30 PM
Originally Posted by Alexandrite
Originally Posted by Nyloth
Originally Posted by Goldberry
Right?

No. Don't touch Astarion's perfect face.

100% agree! He's perfect just the way he is!
I don't even understand the mods that exist to make him look younger somehow. He's not a teenager, he's got that perfect ageless quality about him.


He has perfect visual age, after all, his voice actor is a grown man for a reason. I also do not know why some ppl are trying make him look younger, idk maybe they like teenagers or adult young. But here they are discussing something quite different, if such corrections affect characters, then literally structure of his face will change.



Originally Posted by Tarlonniel
Larian had no problem making their elves look very un-Tolkienish in their previous game.

But it wasn't about faces, their faces looked pretty normal, but their bodies were terrifying.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Elves are not Elven - 07/05/21 03:52 PM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
My point, RagnarokCzD, was that people are used to seeing elves as pointy-eared humans because of the LOTR movies and other media renditions of elves where they are humans with pointy ears. That's all. Most of what they have seen of elves is that image.
Yup ... and my point was that you cannot mix Games and Movies, since no actor would be so dedicated to his work, to willingly undergo plastic surgery to change the shape of bones, cartilage and rotation of the eyes. laugh
Therefore > games should be measure for games, and movies should be measure for movies. wink

Originally Posted by GM4Him
The other point I was making by calling out LOTR is that Tolkien's original concept for elves was nothing like humans with pointed ears. His original descriptions were quite different. They were more fairy-like. So the movie and other media's renditions of elves is not even true to Tolkien, who was somewhat of the original basis for elves in D&D.
Same reason as abowe ...
Plus its cheaper that way. laugh

Originally Posted by GM4Him
Anyway, humans with pointy ears is what a lot of people think of, now, when it comes to elves, and that was my point. They don't standardly think of elves as described in D&D, and even a lot of D&D art doesn't depict elves as something different from humans with pointy ears. So, I imagine it didn't even cross Larian's minds. Even if it did, they were probably thinking that anything but human with pointy ears for elves would seem weird to the general audience.
Well ... you say "lot of people" ... i would say that 15 pages of this topic sugest otherwise. laugh
Same as allready mentioned games as Warcraft, the Elder Scrolls, Warhammer, Dragon Age, Divinity: Original Sin 2, and certainly not least Baldurs Gate 1 + 2. laugh

But anyway i honestly dont even care if they did, or didnt think about it ...
What i would like to know, is if there even is any chance that now, when it was mentioned ... and looking at those 15 pages, i would dare to say supported by conciderable amount of players ... if it will be implemented.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Elves are not Elven - 07/05/21 04:21 PM
There are like 20,000 posts on Steam. I have no idea how many other threads on other sites. 15 pages of the same people going back and forth on a single thread doesn't really speak to a huge number of players. My entire point was just that people outside of fantasy fans would be more familiar with the LOTR movie experience. Not saying it's the correct concept. Just saying that it makes sense that Larian may have implemented humans with pointy ears without thought simply because of this perception.

That said, I'm not trying to resist Larian changing the looks of elves (including drow) to match D&D descriptions. I wouldn't mind at all if they changed a lot of the images of the character models we have to choose from. Halflings, for example, look weird. I'd kinda like to see them look a bit differently.

Halflings are supposed to be, according to https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Halfling, "small in comparison with the members of most other races, standing somewhere from 2′8″‒3′4″ (81‒100 cm) tall and weighing on average between 30‒35 lb (14‒16 kg). In many ways, halflings resembled small humans and usually had the same proportions as the typical human adult. Most halflings had dark hair and eyes, regardless of their skin complexion which, although commonly ruddy in hue had a similar range to humans. Nearly all male halflings were incapable of growing true beards, though many had long sideburns. Halfling hairstyles were often complex, with strands woven together or braided. Although halflings had an affinity for collecting valuables, they did not prefer to wear these on their person, instead preferring more comfortable clothing."

This is what elves SHOULD look like, though, in Forgotten Realms based on the same website https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Elf: "Elves stood on average 5′4″‒6′0″ (1.6‒1.8 m) and weighed 130‒170 lb (59‒77 kg). USUALLY, true elves were a naturally slender and athletic race. Elves had a similar range of complexions to humans, with wood elves typically coppery or pale skinned and wild elves having darker pigmentation. Often, elven hair was dark, either brown or black, with copper red or blond hair also found amongst wood elves, although orange or even green hues were not completely unheard of. Elven eyes are commonly brown, hazel, or an emerald green. Elves, like their cousins the eladrin, were fair and beautiful, handsome, and had pointed ears and no body hair except eyebrows, eyelashes, and hair. Elves matured at roughly the same rate as humans, though they were not usually considered past adolescence until they reached 110 years of age. Unlike humans, elves did not age dramatically as their lifespan came to a close, with the most obvious changes being a change in hair color, alternatively graying or darkening. Most elves remained healthy and full of life up until their death, which, if age-related, was usually between two and nine centuries."

So, not really seeing anything there saying they HAVE to look different from humans with pointy ears. It just says they are usually slender and athletic and that they have pointy ears and are beautiful or handsome.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Elves are not Elven - 07/05/21 04:39 PM
Then you should read this topic ... from the beginning.
Posted By: Goldberry Re: Elves are not Elven - 07/05/21 04:41 PM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
This is what elves SHOULD look like, though, in Forgotten Realms based on the same website https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Elf: "Elves stood on average 5′4″‒6′0″ (1.6‒1.8 m) and weighed 130‒170 lb (59‒77 kg). USUALLY, true elves were a naturally slender and athletic race. Elves had a similar range of complexions to humans, with wood elves typically coppery or pale skinned and wild elves having darker pigmentation. Often, elven hair was dark, either brown or black, with copper red or blond hair also found amongst wood elves, although orange or even green hues were not completely unheard of. Elven eyes are commonly brown, hazel, or an emerald green. Elves, like their cousins the eladrin, were fair and beautiful, handsome, and had pointed ears and no body hair except eyebrows, eyelashes, and hair. Elves matured at roughly the same rate as humans, though they were not usually considered past adolescence until they reached 110 years of age. Unlike humans, elves did not age dramatically as their lifespan came to a close, with the most obvious changes being a change in hair color, alternatively graying or darkening. Most elves remained healthy and full of life up until their death, which, if age-related, was usually between two and nine centuries."

So, not really seeing anything there saying they HAVE to look different from humans with pointy ears. It just says they are usually slender and athletic and that they have pointy ears and are beautiful or handsome.

You can't expect the wiki to give you all of the information of a race that you could possibly need. Like someone else said, you should read the topic from the beggining, I've made a compilation with canon and handbook material, and if it isn't clear, I can make an even more complete one.

Otherwise, you can do some research of your own by reading from the source manuals instead of the wiki smile
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Elves are not Elven - 07/05/21 07:42 PM
Sorry. Perhaps that came across wrong. I should have said, "According to this particular Forgotten Realms Wiki site, this is what elves should look like. I don't see anything in there that says they HAVE to look different from humans with pointy ears. So it depends on where you look. If Larian just pulled up this website, for example, they would think that elves should just be slender and athletic and have pointy ears...oh, and be beautiful and handsome."

In other words, I didn't mean to sound like I was arguing against your points. Like I said, "I'm not trying to resist Larian changing the looks of elves (including drow) to match D&D descriptions. I wouldn't mind at all if they changed a lot of the images of the character models we have to choose from."

ALL I was trying to say is that I hadn't even thought about it until reading this thread because I'm just so used to seeing humans with pointy ears as elves thanks to LOTR and other media representations of elves. I have become so used to elves being depicted this way that it didn't even register in my brain that it was different. Same with dwarven females, really. I just didn't even think about how in D&D, dwarves should look like:

"Dwarven males were a bit taller and heavier than their female counterparts.[10] Like humans, dwarves had a wide variety of skin, eye, and hair colors, typically pale among shield dwarves and deeply tanned or brown amongst gold dwarves. Hazel eyes were common throughout the race, with blue eyes more common amongst shield dwarves and brown or green eyes found amongst the gold dwarves.[9] Male dwarves were often bald and grew thick facial hair, which was sometimes used to display social status. Unusually for humanoids, both sexes naturally grew ample facial hair,[11] though the majority of shield dwarf females shaved their beards off.[12] This hair was often dark in hue, though among shield dwarves blond or red hair was just as common. Gold dwarves took the care of facial hair to an extreme, carefully oiling and grooming it,[9] with some adding perfume and ornamentations.[11]"

So, again, not trying to say they shouldn't fix the models. If anything, they should fix them all. Height, weight, build, facial hair, pointed ears, not pointed ears, or whatever, they should all fit the true D&D/ Forgotten Realms descriptions. If they want a few humanish looking variants for elves to make LOTR fans more comfortable, I'm sure there are some elves that would fit that mold, but for the most part they probably should go with the true D&D build so that it meets the true standards of the world they are trying to recreate.
Posted By: fallenj Re: Elves are not Elven - 08/05/21 02:06 AM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
There are like 20,000 posts on Steam. I have no idea how many other threads on other sites. 15 pages of the same people going back and forth on a single thread doesn't really speak to a huge number of players. My entire point was just that people outside of fantasy fans would be more familiar with the LOTR movie experience. Not saying it's the correct concept. Just saying that it makes sense that Larian may have implemented humans with pointy ears without thought simply because of this perception.

That said, I'm not trying to resist Larian changing the looks of elves (including drow) to match D&D descriptions. I wouldn't mind at all if they changed a lot of the images of the character models we have to choose from. Halflings, for example, look weird. I'd kinda like to see them look a bit differently.

Halflings are supposed to be, according to https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Halfling, "small in comparison with the members of most other races, standing somewhere from 2′8″‒3′4″ (81‒100 cm) tall and weighing on average between 30‒35 lb (14‒16 kg). In many ways, halflings resembled small humans and usually had the same proportions as the typical human adult. Most halflings had dark hair and eyes, regardless of their skin complexion which, although commonly ruddy in hue had a similar range to humans. Nearly all male halflings were incapable of growing true beards, though many had long sideburns. Halfling hairstyles were often complex, with strands woven together or braided. Although halflings had an affinity for collecting valuables, they did not prefer to wear these on their person, instead preferring more comfortable clothing."

This is what elves SHOULD look like, though, in Forgotten Realms based on the same website https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Elf: "Elves stood on average 5′4″‒6′0″ (1.6‒1.8 m) and weighed 130‒170 lb (59‒77 kg). USUALLY, true elves were a naturally slender and athletic race. Elves had a similar range of complexions to humans, with wood elves typically coppery or pale skinned and wild elves having darker pigmentation. Often, elven hair was dark, either brown or black, with copper red or blond hair also found amongst wood elves, although orange or even green hues were not completely unheard of. Elven eyes are commonly brown, hazel, or an emerald green. Elves, like their cousins the eladrin, were fair and beautiful, handsome, and had pointed ears and no body hair except eyebrows, eyelashes, and hair. Elves matured at roughly the same rate as humans, though they were not usually considered past adolescence until they reached 110 years of age. Unlike humans, elves did not age dramatically as their lifespan came to a close, with the most obvious changes being a change in hair color, alternatively graying or darkening. Most elves remained healthy and full of life up until their death, which, if age-related, was usually between two and nine centuries."

So, not really seeing anything there saying they HAVE to look different from humans with pointy ears. It just says they are usually slender and athletic and that they have pointy ears and are beautiful or handsome.

Comparing a film where actual families can sit down and watch a movie with there kids vs a video game is rubbish. You want to know what the common elf people generally would think of? It would be this:



World of Warcraft was a major critical and commercial success upon its original release in 2004 and quickly became the most popular MMORPG of all-time, reaching a peak of 12 million subscribers in 2010.[4] The game had over one hundred million registered accounts by 2014[5] and by 2017, had grossed over $9.23 billion in revenue, making it one of the highest-grossing video game franchises of all time. The game has been cited by gaming journalists as the greatest MMORPG of all-time and one of the greatest video games of all time and has also been noted for its long lifespan, continuing to receive developer support and expansion packs over 15 years since its initial release.
Third paragraph down, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_of_Warcraft

Halfling thread just encase anyone is interested

Description for each edition of d&d changes, for example Eladrin:
4e
[Linked Image from images1.wikia.nocookie.net]
5e
[Linked Image from i.pinimg.com]

All elves originated from the Feywild, Eladrin stayed while Wood/Wild (Green elves) left along with drow (brown elves? Lolth did something and brown elves turned purple/blue/black, not related to eye color, and no im not going to look this rubbish up). Long term exposure to material plane changed how they look but generally still look like stupid elves with pointy ears and triangle shaped faces. 3.5 has diagram of it, someone posted the pic on this thread. Go through the pages of this thread and look at the pictures.

ELVES ARE NOT HUMANS, THEY ALL COME FROM FEYWILD
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Elves are not Elven - 08/05/21 02:33 AM
@fallenj

Did you read my last post. I'm not saying you're wrong or the others. I agree. It would be cool if they updated all the models.

I even said, "That said, I'm not trying to resist Larian changing the looks of elves (including drow) to match D&D descriptions. I wouldn't mind at all if they changed a lot of the images of the character models we have to choose from. Halflings, for example, look weird. I'd kinda like to see them look a bit differently."

My whole point about bringing LOTR into it was that I'm sure I'm not alone when I say that I didn't even think about what elves and drow are supposed to look like because I'm used to seeing elves as pointy eared humans. That's it. Not saying they should remain that way. Just saying that it might throw some people off if they don't see pointy eared humans.

Go to Google Images and type elves. Do you see pointy eared humans or elves based on D&D descriptions? Again, not saying it's right, but whether its right is not the point. The most prominent images I see are humans with pointy ears.
Posted By: fallenj Re: Elves are not Elven - 08/05/21 03:06 AM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
@fallenj

Did you read my last post. I'm not saying you're wrong or the others. I agree. It would be cool if they updated all the models.

I even said, "That said, I'm not trying to resist Larian changing the looks of elves (including drow) to match D&D descriptions. I wouldn't mind at all if they changed a lot of the images of the character models we have to choose from. Halflings, for example, look weird. I'd kinda like to see them look a bit differently."

My whole point about bringing LOTR into it was that I'm sure I'm not alone when I say that I didn't even think about what elves and drow are supposed to look like because I'm used to seeing elves as pointy eared humans. That's it. Not saying they should remain that way. Just saying that it might throw some people off if they don't see pointy eared humans.

Go to Google Images and type elves. Do you see pointy eared humans or elves based on D&D descriptions? Again, not saying it's right, but whether its right is not the point. The most prominent images I see are humans with pointy ears.

ya you was talking in general of what you think the population see's how elves look, I replied with the World of Warcraft section since it's been around longer and is one of the top games with elves. When I see elves they have a distinct look generally long faces triangle shaped with pointy ears.

searched bing for elves, got christmas elves that more so look like gnomes...
Posted By: CJMPinger Re: Elves are not Elven - 08/05/21 04:12 AM
I think people typically think of the elf they were first exposed to in a meaningful way when told to think of an elf, so when I think of elf I actually think of elves from Elder Scrolls (Morrowind and Oblivion), with the Bosmer, Altmer, and Dunmer. Especially Dunmer and them calling me an outlander constantly...
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Elves are not Elven - 08/05/21 04:49 AM
Nah. I still remember the old Rankin Bass Hobbit. I can tell you, Thranduil and the elves were a bit freaky in that, but that's not how I think of elves.

I think of Dragonlance.

https://www.google.com/search?q=elv...vsn&safe=active#imgrc=1oTzaHZ5gxXRgM

https://www.google.com/search?q=elv...vsn&safe=active#imgrc=V6WruDPRVDWa-M

https://images.app.goo.gl/EGfo6F3TEEZV5bXKA


And Forgotten Realms Books

https://images.app.goo.gl/Gaxb2zcRTDxixv6a7

https://images.app.goo.gl/chZhxCkGpGwVZHJu5

https://images.app.goo.gl/Ps4QmHZ79u7GfgyJ8
Posted By: Leucrotta Re: Elves are not Elven - 08/05/21 05:04 AM
The elves are very pretty in BG III (as are all the character models), but I find them pretty indistinguishable from humans and half elves.. If you lined up Shadowheart and Halsin and told me to pick out the half elf, honestly I'd probably pick Halsin. I think they might have used face scans for the models, which would explain a lot-there really aren't a lot of IRL people I can think of who have the extreme triangular/heart shaped faces and large, inward tilted eyes characteristic of earlier editions depictions of elves.

I wonder what Larion will do if/when they bring back any of the elven companions from the previous two games-how accurate they want to make them to their character portraits. I mean, Aerie would look a bit like an alien even if you put her next to one of the more cheekbone-y elves in BGIII like Kahga,
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Elves are not Elven - 08/05/21 09:18 AM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Go to Google Images and type elves. Do you see pointy eared humans or elves based on D&D descriptions? Again, not saying it's right, but whether its right is not the point. The most prominent images I see are humans with pointy ears.
Just for the record ...
Google (as well as others searching paiges) uses your cookies to adjust searching on internet and gives you result, that will probably be "most relevant for you" ...
So in theory, if you and i both "type elves" in google, we bot get different pictures. wink

//edit:
Anyway ... even if you find kazzilion pictures of round shaped face elves, that dont mean they should have rounded face ... it only means that kazzilion autors are drawing them wrong. laugh
Like many authors quite commonly ignores the differences between Wyverna and the Dragon in fantasy. wink
Posted By: Chief_Jericho Re: Elves are not Elven - 08/05/21 11:53 AM
I'm no AD&D aficionado but I read they're meant to be stunningly beautiful. I looked though those official art work pics and they look closer to one of the Greys. I don't know about you but that's not my idea of beauty. I will say this. I for one am glad Larian's reigned in on the arms race of ear length and foregone the ridiculous Fu Manchu eyebrows of WoW. Elves originate in Tolkein's works (well they actually come out of Northern European folklore but that's another thing) and were more akin to Vulkans from Start Trek in terms of ears but in the last decade or so they've somehow ended up with ears longer than your arms. So personally, unless the model has changed since the OP, I think Larian's done a pretty good job on Elves. Could do with shorter ears but generally better than anyone else in the last 15 years.
I love the design of the elves in BG3! delight
Either way is fine with me. I certainly wouldn't mind true elf models but I honestly think it is subject to interpretation.

They say elves are beautiful, but beauty is not the same for all. Some, myself included, do not think that a lot of the true elf images are beautiful at all. I also didn't think Aerie was beautiful, and I didn't really like her character. I liked Jaheira, but she looked to me like a human with pointy ears.

I've also seen drow images both as pointy eared dark skinned people and true drow portraits, and I always preferred the more human looking images.

But, on the other hand, variety is good. Elves looking like humans with pointy ears makes them not as diverse and special. They're just humans with pointy ears. nothing more. It might be more interesting to have true elven models so people can really see the differences between the two. I mean, it is sad that if you choose the wrong hairstyle that covers the ears, you can't even tell if you chose to be a human or elf.
Elves are usualy concidered beautifull, bcs their faces are symetric (unlike humans) ...
Nothing more, nothing less. wink
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Either way is fine with me. I certainly wouldn't mind true elf models but I honestly think it is subject to interpretation.

What is a true elf model ? The models in the OP are the artistic proposition of an artist who had been working for 5 year long with wotc, twenty years ago. Nothing more, nothing canon. It's also worth mentionning he worked a lot in the science fiction area. I think that Larian options are as valid as any other, whether people like it or not is another debate.
Btw, in the OP, the BG2 portraits certainly do not represent all elves in that game, the best example being the queen Ellesime. Even Jaheira (half-elf) was very different in the first BG game.
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