Larian Studios
Posted By: Anung un Rama Elves should look more otherworldly - 13/10/20 03:28 PM
Elves are completely different beings from humans, they literally come from another world (Feywild), so for me the way they are being represented now is completely wrong. The faces are very "human", especially in males, who have extremely strong male features, while both they and females should be much more delicate and ethereal. On top of that, they put Asian faces as options for elves ... wtf Larian? I don't think i need to explain it, but Asians are human, and elves are not.

To conclude my point, I think that the elves must be completely remodeled, with elven, not human, features. And human characters must have options for Asian features.


Thanks for reading. I hope everyone is doing well.
Why do Dwarves have Scottish accents? Besides, I have /rolled a Drow and I have never seen an Asian with blue/grey skin /shrug. Oh, and what about half-elves? smile You are welcome to your opinion, but obviously I disagree with it strongly.
Posted By: dreambled Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 13/10/20 03:43 PM
Why can't elves have Asian features? They seem to have very white features otherwise.
Posted By: Neckbone Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 13/10/20 03:44 PM
Larian has stated from the beginning that they want this game to be inclusive. They have features that are representative of our world so that people can play a character that looks like them. Who cares if their elves can appear to have Asian, European, or African features? Its not about being accurate to a fantasy world its about making sure everyone is represented. If you have an issue with that maybe you should reevaluate your life.
Posted By: vometia Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 13/10/20 03:51 PM
Originally Posted by Anung un Rama
To conclude my point, I think that the elves must be completely remodeled, with elven, not human, features. And human characters must have options for Asian features.

Originally Posted by Neckbone
Larian has stated from the beginning that they want this game to be inclusive. They have features that are representative of our world so that people can play a character that looks like them. Who cares if their elves can appear to have Asian, European, or African features? Its not about being accurate to a fantasy world its about making sure everyone is represented. If you have an issue with that maybe you should reevaluate your life.

I think this frames both points of view quite clearly. I am very cautiously leaving this open but let's be careful where we go with it. Thanks.
Posted By: Synaryn Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 13/10/20 03:55 PM
What would you consider elven features?
Posted By: Ixal Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 13/10/20 03:58 PM
Originally Posted by Synaryn
What would you consider elven features?


In many D&D art they have both sharp facial features but also look androgynous.
Posted By: Moirnelithe Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 13/10/20 04:00 PM
I suspect nobody would mind if there were more classic elven faces. Right now the choice is kind of limited.
Posted By: Goldberry Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 13/10/20 04:12 PM
I am of the opinion myself that elves don't have to represent anyone but elves, same goes for all non human races. And they are not meant to look caucasic either, I do not know why people complain about caucasic elves when they were not represented that way in forgotten realms, plus, they come in a variety of shapes and colours.

Humans on the other hand, are the counterpart that has many kinds of cultures with parallels to our world, and it is both accurate and appropriate to represent them.

Either way, it might as well be beating a dead horse, this is the direction the creative team took.

Originally Posted by Synaryn
What would you consider elven features?


Very angular features, with an inverted triangle shape, arched brows and slanted eyes, very thin and delicate features. I like this artwork the most, it is in the player's handbook of one of the older editions. It really does not look caucasic to me, but something entirely else, and very mixed depends on where you focus.

[Linked Image]




Posted By: clanpot Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 13/10/20 04:18 PM
I just cycled through the human and elven preset faces and there isn't really an emphasis on Asian features for elves in the character creator. Did the OP mean elven NPCs? I didn't personally notice if they were predominantly Asian-featured, but I wasn't really looking.

Posted By: Sadurian Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 13/10/20 04:27 PM
I found the human faces suggest a mix of Caucasian, Asian and negro. With just over half-a-dozen basic starting faces, that's not bad for a diverse ethnic mix. You're never going to represent all ethnic backgrounds with so limited a selection, and I am not exactly enthralled by the faces on offer (I usually go for 'least-worst' looking), but hats off to Larian for what they have produced.

I haven't, I should say, looked at the elves. Elves are superficial and narcissistic enough, without them having my attention. grin
Posted By: Vithaar Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 13/10/20 04:29 PM
are you calling Asian, humans?......

lol i kid i kid smile
Posted By: Takamori Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 13/10/20 04:33 PM
Well the character creator is missing a lot of features I believe?
From gameplay pov not being able to choose your starter equipment and neither the variant rules.
And Aesthetics of missing faces.

As for the OP itself, me being an Asian fella, whats the issue of allowing me to do a character from other races that I could relate with? Faerun already have Kozakura that is basically Japan in Faerun. So having other races with other cultural takes is not far streching it. I understand the cultural root of the Folk being European, but thing change or it would be a constant copy pasta of Tolkien, changes like this for example allow you to be a European heavily armored knight to fight Onis and other Folk creatures that with a ultra conservative(in the sense of no changes not the political spectrum) wouldn't allow to.
Posted By: Goldberry Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 13/10/20 04:41 PM
Originally Posted by Takamori
Well the character creator is missing a lot of features I believe?
From gameplay pov not being able to choose your starter equipment and neither the variant rules.
And Aesthetics of missing faces.

As for the OP itself, me being an Asian fella, whats the issue of allowing me to do a character from other races that I could relate with? Faerun already have Kozakura that is basically Japan in Faerun. So having other races with other cultural takes is not far streching it. I understand the cultural root of the Folk being European, but thing change or it would be a constant copy pasta of Tolkien, changes like this for example allow you to be a European heavily armored knight to fight Onis and other Folk creatures that with a ultra conservative(in the sense of no changes not the political spectrum) wouldn't allow to.


This is not a matter of diversity and inclusion really, at least not to me, and I am of mixed heritage, I do not look caucasic. To me it is about building an immersive world that makes sense, and if you are going to have races that are not human, they should be represented in... Well. A non human way. Otherwise what is the point of them. They are not supposed to look caucasic, black, indian, asian, or anything other than their own.

Every time you take a fantasy race, and you strip it from the things that make it unique and different, and humanize it, well... The world is less rich, and less interesting.
Posted By: WarBaby2 Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 13/10/20 04:43 PM
Originally Posted by Takamori
Well the character creator is missing a lot of features I believe?
From gameplay pov not being able to choose your starter equipment and neither the variant rules.
And Aesthetics of missing faces.

As for the OP itself, me being an Asian fella, whats the issue of allowing me to do a character from other races that I could relate with? Faerun already have Kozakura that is basically Japan in Faerun. So having other races with other cultural takes is not far streching it. I understand the cultural root of the Folk being European, but thing change or it would be a constant copy pasta of Tolkien, changes like this for example allow you to be a European heavily armored knight to fight Onis and other Folk creatures that with a ultra conservative(in the sense of no changes not the political spectrum) wouldn't allow to.


True, but the issue is, elves should neither have Asian, nor Caucasian faces... they should have elven faces. Besides, Badlur's Gate is quite a ways of Kara Tur, Shou Lung and all the other, east asian inspired kingdoms. Not really topic of the discussion, though.
Posted By: Takamori Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 13/10/20 04:50 PM
Originally Posted by Goldberry
Originally Posted by Takamori
Well the character creator is missing a lot of features I believe?
From gameplay pov not being able to choose your starter equipment and neither the variant rules.
And Aesthetics of missing faces.

As for the OP itself, me being an Asian fella, whats the issue of allowing me to do a character from other races that I could relate with? Faerun already have Kozakura that is basically Japan in Faerun. So having other races with other cultural takes is not far streching it. I understand the cultural root of the Folk being European, but thing change or it would be a constant copy pasta of Tolkien, changes like this for example allow you to be a European heavily armored knight to fight Onis and other Folk creatures that with a ultra conservative(in the sense of no changes not the political spectrum) wouldn't allow to.


This is not a matter of diversity and inclusion really, at least not to me, and I am of mixed heritage, I do not look caucasic. To me it is about building an immersive world that makes sense, and if you are going to have races that are not human, they should be represented in... Well. A non human way. Otherwise what is the point of them. They are not supposed to look caucasic, black, indian, asian, or anything other than their own.

Every time you take a fantasy race, and you strip it from the things that make it unique and different, and humanize it, well... The world is less rich, and less interesting.


Well they have human like features like you can recognize the basic facial structure, jawline, eyes with iris, teeth, face ratio and so on. From what I'm getting from the topic is that elves are not Androgynous enough? The only thing make humans different from elves is the ears, therefore the good old elf cursing "God damn knife ears"
Posted By: Takamori Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 13/10/20 04:53 PM
Originally Posted by WarBaby2
Originally Posted by Takamori
Well the character creator is missing a lot of features I believe?
From gameplay pov not being able to choose your starter equipment and neither the variant rules.
And Aesthetics of missing faces.

As for the OP itself, me being an Asian fella, whats the issue of allowing me to do a character from other races that I could relate with? Faerun already have Kozakura that is basically Japan in Faerun. So having other races with other cultural takes is not far streching it. I understand the cultural root of the Folk being European, but thing change or it would be a constant copy pasta of Tolkien, changes like this for example allow you to be a European heavily armored knight to fight Onis and other Folk creatures that with a ultra conservative(in the sense of no changes not the political spectrum) wouldn't allow to.


True, but the issue is, elves should neither have Asian, nor Caucasian faces... they should have elven faces. Besides, Badlur's Gate is quite a ways of Kara Tur, Shou Lung and all the other, east asian inspired kingdoms. Not really topic of the discussion, though.

I know you dont want to discuss this right now to avoid derailment of the thread itself but given its high magic setting ,people can travel fairly easily from point to point. If it were a low magic setting I'd agree with the statement: How the hell you got here from bumfuck nowhere?

Now returning to the thread itself appologies to OP, maybe I'm missing the visualization of elf the non human elf features. I can think of Kerillian in Warhammer Vermintide 2, she has almost alien features with her black sclera and face shape.
Posted By: KillerRabbit Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 13/10/20 05:08 PM
I'm glad the moderators use a light touch on this forum. @Goldberry took the conversation in a productive direction with the photo from the player's handbook. I would also like to see more angular, somewhat alien features on elves. Ethereal, otherworldly.

As much as I was wowed by special effects in Jackson's Lord of the Rings films I was always annoyed that that cgi that made the faces thiner did not do the same to the noses -- Galadriel looked lovely but her nose was two sizes too big for her face. BG3 isn't under the same constraints -- someone with 3D editing skills can modify some of the heads to make them see otherworldly. Also, combine the existing elf and half elf heads -- currently the half elves look more like elves than the elves do.

Posted By: vometia Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 13/10/20 05:26 PM
Offensive comment removed. The topic has otherwise been going pretty well, let's keep it that way without anyone getting banned. Thanks.
Posted By: Sadurian Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 13/10/20 05:27 PM
D&D3/3.5 and Pathfinder elves moved in quite a different direction for a time, making them less like Tolkien's supermodels with pointed ears and more like an alien race. I preferred that treatment, but I understand that there are many who prefer the old look.
Originally Posted by Neckbone
Larian has stated from the beginning that they want this game to be inclusive. They have features that are representative of our world so that people can play a character that looks like them. Who cares if their elves can appear to have Asian, European, or African features? Its not about being accurate to a fantasy world its about making sure everyone is represented. If you have an issue with that maybe you should reevaluate your life.


Did you read my text or are you just playing ignorant? Obviously I want the game to be inclusive, so much so that I suggested adding Asian faces to human characters, which they should have done from the start. I know what you are trying to do, and that is very low.

The only thing I want is for all non-human races to be represented correctly. Elves are not human with pointy ears, they shouldn't look like any ethnic group, whether they are European, Asian, African or whatever. They have to look like elves, and at the moment they look like colorful humans with pointed ears.
Posted By: Takamori Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 13/10/20 05:36 PM
Hmm if I were to offer constructive criticism, the title of the thread sounds weird so to say, if possible ask to change to Elves to look more out worldly feedback.
I admit that I entered the thread expecting some hot takes lol.
Originally Posted by Takamori
Hmm if I were to offer constructive criticism, the title of the thread sounds weird so to say, if possible ask to change to Elves to look more out worldly feedback.
I admit that I entered the thread expecting some hot takes lol.


Maybe you are right. It wasn't my intention to trigger anybody. English isn't my first language, so i find difficult to express myself clearly sometimes. I will change the title.
Posted By: Takamori Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 13/10/20 05:51 PM
Originally Posted by Anung un Rama
Originally Posted by Takamori
Hmm if I were to offer constructive criticism, the title of the thread sounds weird so to say, if possible ask to change to Elves to look more out worldly feedback.
I admit that I entered the thread expecting some hot takes lol.


Maybe you are right. It wasn't my intention to trigger anybody. English isn't my first language, so i find difficult to express myself clearly sometimes. I will change the title.

Its ok, after reading the thread I understood the intention in the feedback, so we can maximize the discussion and avoid people just reading the title and start ruining the thread z.z
Posted By: Goldberry Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 13/10/20 06:05 PM
Haha, there we go. Don't you just love it when we can get along nicely? <3
I really hope that the design of the elves will change to something more alien and ethereal, but in the end Larian doesn't need to take those faces out of the options, but at least add faces with elven characteristics. Just like the image that Goldberry showed.
Posted By: Usako Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 13/10/20 08:13 PM
Originally Posted by Anung un Rama
I really hope that the design of the elves will change to something more alien and ethereal, but in the end Larian doesn't need to take those faces out of the options, but at least add faces with elven characteristics. Just like the image that Goldberry showed.


While I perfectly understand and agree that elves should look like elves (there was another thread that showed that some elven faces were so... rough?), I must say I also appreciate if I'd be able to find a face that COULD be me (southeast asian heritage) in elven form :P
Must admit that I didn't pay much attention to elves in general before, though. I liked how Sebille in D:OS2 looked. But given the picture, her face was too wide/round.

I've only done Human and Tiefling so far though, so didn't click through the faces yet.
Posted By: Parra Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 13/10/20 08:15 PM
Totally agree with OP. People forgot that Elves, Orcs, Aarakocras, Goblins, Giths and all other races are OTHER races. I totally agree if you want a Half-Orc, or Half-Elf with Caucasian/Asian/Negroid/Arab characteristics, since they ARE half humans... But bringing human features to other races, just destroy their characteristics...

Sorry for bad english
Posted By: Arideya Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 13/10/20 08:36 PM
Originally Posted by Parra
Totally agree with OP. People forgot that Elves, Orcs, Aarakocras, Goblins, Giths and all other races are OTHER races. I totally agree if you want a Half-Orc, or Half-Elf with Caucasian/Asian/Negroid/Arab characteristics, since they ARE half humans... But bringing human features to other races, just destroy their characteristics...


But you are using a certain human appearance to serve as a 'base' to build your races and their appearances from, and right now that equivalent is caucasian. I don't see a problem in using all other bases that exist on planet Earth, and yes while Toril is not Earth, you have all sorts of magical creatures and brain-eating tadpoles and for some reason elves that have features such as epicanthric folds cannot exist.

Originally Posted by Usako


While I perfectly understand and agree that elves should look like elves (there was another thread that showed that some elven faces were so... rough?), I must say I also appreciate if I'd be able to find a face that COULD be me (southeast asian heritage) in elven form :P
Must admit that I didn't pay much attention to elves in general before, though. I liked how Sebille in D:OS2 looked. But given the picture, her face was too wide/round.

I've only done Human and Tiefling so far though, so didn't click through the faces yet.


Precisely my point, if anything it will open up the races to more people who would like to play themselves but with pointy ears.

Edit: I do want the elves to be more ethereal and magical, leaner than humans and half-elves, shorter Drow, alien eyes etc. I am way too used to the old drawings of Forgotten Realms elves. I am arguing for face diversity because I think there are ways that the art team can make it work by keeping distinctly diverse features but at the same time making them FR elves.
Originally Posted by Arideya
Originally Posted by Parra
Totally agree with OP. People forgot that Elves, Orcs, Aarakocras, Goblins, Giths and all other races are OTHER races. I totally agree if you want a Half-Orc, or Half-Elf with Caucasian/Asian/Negroid/Arab characteristics, since they ARE half humans... But bringing human features to other races, just destroy their characteristics...


But you are using a certain human appearance to serve as a 'base' to build your races and their appearances from, and right now that equivalent is caucasian. I don't see a problem in using all other bases that exist on planet Earth, and yes while Toril is not Earth, you have all sorts of magical creatures and brain-eating tadpoles and for some reason elves that have features such as epicanthric folds cannot exist.

Originally Posted by Usako


While I perfectly understand and agree that elves should look like elves (there was another thread that showed that some elven faces were so... rough?), I must say I also appreciate if I'd be able to find a face that COULD be me (southeast asian heritage) in elven form :P
Must admit that I didn't pay much attention to elves in general before, though. I liked how Sebille in D:OS2 looked. But given the picture, her face was too wide/round.

I've only done Human and Tiefling so far though, so didn't click through the faces yet.


Precisely my point, if anything it will open up the races to more people who would like to play themselves but with pointy ears.

Edit: I do want the elves to be more ethereal and magical, leaner than humans and half-elves, shorter Drow, alien eyes etc. I am way too used to the old drawings of Forgotten Realms elves. I am arguing for face diversity because I think there are ways that the art team can make it work by keeping distinctly diverse features but at the same time making them FR elves.


Yeah, i would be cool with that. It would be much better than what de have now.
Posted By: Dark_Ansem Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 13/10/20 09:10 PM
The idea of elves being ethereal is from Lord of the Rings. DnD elves are not godly beings but more like, fey. So rather than ethereal they should have a distinct alien feeling.
Originally Posted by Dark_Ansem
The idea of elves being ethereal is from Lord of the Rings. DnD elves are not godly beings but more like, fey. So rather than ethereal they should have a distinct alien feeling.


I think that this mostly depends on the subrace. High elves and all it's variations look pretty ethereal to me. But I agree that the main thing is that they should have this alien look.
Posted By: Zaiyuki Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 13/10/20 10:13 PM
Originally Posted by Takamori
Originally Posted by WarBaby2
Originally Posted by Takamori
Well the character creator is missing a lot of features I believe?
From gameplay pov not being able to choose your starter equipment and neither the variant rules.
And Aesthetics of missing faces.

As for the OP itself, me being an Asian fella, whats the issue of allowing me to do a character from other races that I could relate with? Faerun already have Kozakura that is basically Japan in Faerun. So having other races with other cultural takes is not far streching it. I understand the cultural root of the Folk being European, but thing change or it would be a constant copy pasta of Tolkien, changes like this for example allow you to be a European heavily armored knight to fight Onis and other Folk creatures that with a ultra conservative(in the sense of no changes not the political spectrum) wouldn't allow to.


True, but the issue is, elves should neither have Asian, nor Caucasian faces... they should have elven faces. Besides, Badlur's Gate is quite a ways of Kara Tur, Shou Lung and all the other, east asian inspired kingdoms. Not really topic of the discussion, though.

I know you dont want to discuss this right now to avoid derailment of the thread itself but given its high magic setting ,people can travel fairly easily from point to point. If it were a low magic setting I'd agree with the statement: How the hell you got here from bumfuck nowhere?

Now returning to the thread itself appologies to OP, maybe I'm missing the visualization of elf the non human elf features. I can think of Kerillian in Warhammer Vermintide 2, she has almost alien features with her black sclera and face shape.


FR is a high magic setting, but for a minority of people. Teleport magic and flying are really rare for the common folk. Mundane travel is the norm for most people. but this does not deny that ppl from far places can be in baldur's gate. even a main companion in the second game was from kara-tur and Minsc that comes from Rashemen, a country that is in the middle of the way between kara-tur and the sword coast, was adventuring in BG.
Posted By: cool-dude01 Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 13/10/20 10:47 PM
In Celtic Folklore, Elves were related to fairies and could shapeshift.
Posted By: _Vic_ Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 13/10/20 10:47 PM
I do not know if it´s already said in the thread, but right now Larian is using the model and character design of the art of the books of D&D5e books. This suggestion would be best served in WoTC forums.


That said, there are lots of representations of elves, from Santa´s elves to almost-goblinoid Harry Potter´s books elves to fairy elves or anime elves. It would be great if they have a different meshes and tones in character creation, but right now the depiction of the elves seems like a valid representation on how elves are in D&D. Does not strike as weird.
Posted By: WarBaby2 Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 13/10/20 11:04 PM
Originally Posted by cool-dude01
In Celtic Folklore, Elves were related to fairies and could shapeshift.


The first part entered the Forgotten Realms somewhere around 4e, where Elves suddenly had an Eladrin ancestry, which are basically magical fairy people that life in a dimension called the Feywild. Since then, this connection has been deepened even further, with High Elves (Gold, Moon and Star Elves) actually being Eladrin... kind of. Shapeshifting elves are also a thing in FR, with the Lythari being natural born elven werewolves, and the Fey'ri, half-demon elves in disguise.

...enough nerding out from me, though. Sorry. laugh
Originally Posted by _Vic_
I do not know if it´s already said in the thread, but right now Larian is using the model and character design of the art of the books of D&D5e books. This suggestion would be best served in WoTC forums.


That said, there are lots of representations of elves, from Santa´s elves to almost-goblinoid Harry Potter´s books elves to fairy elves or anime elves. It would be great if they have a different meshes and tones in character creation, but right now the depiction of the elves seems like a valid representation on how elves are in D&D. Does not strike as weird.


The face options we have for elves now in the game just don't look like elves. Regardless of what D&D edition we're talking about. At the moment even the half-elves have more delicate features, and they are the ones who should have human characteristics. It just isn't right.
Posted By: deserk Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 13/10/20 11:21 PM
All elves come in a wide variety of skin tones like, but I do agree that elves should look a bit more distinct than looking like humans with pointy ears. Todd Lockwood's illustrations of elves (who was one of the primary art designers of 3rd edition D&D) are a really good model to use (which were already shown on pg. 1). They have a vaguely alien-look about them (that is to say, they don't really resemble any human ethnicity), which is fitting since they are technically aliens from another world (their race originated countless millennia ago from the plane of Faerie, known as the Feywild in 4e/5e), but at the same time they have sharp and angular features that are generally pleasing to the human eye.
Posted By: blindhamster Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 13/10/20 11:23 PM
I'd like to see D&D elves get more of the elven features too, I don't much care about inclusivity with non humans, Humans should absolutely cover all our real world ethnicities, elves? They have their own very specific looks and have done in D&D for a long while now. Halflings tend to have much more human features so makes sense for them to probably mimic real world human ethnicities too. IMO dwarves probably shouldn't as again, their features are so strong with the wide noses, squad faces, bushy hair, broad chins etc.If Gnomes came in, they might have

Elven features should be more delicate than humans, have more of an androgynous appearance (take my avatar, its some art of an elf PC I play in pnp, a number of people have been confused over their gender for the full picture), their eyes should have a bit of a slant to them, being almond shaped. Their facial hair should tend toward fine as well, rather than bushy, with no beards etc (thats already correct though), more slender faces, more angular too. They simply shouldn't look human, but they should still look attractive in an inhuman way. If anything, the difference between wood/high and drow elves should perhaps be a bit larger, but i'd hesitate to use real world ethnicities across the different elf subraces either. Wood Elves should be more rugged, drow and high elves more elegant, classic drow art had males tend toward bushier eyebrows lol, both males and females tended to have very thick heads of hair.
Originally Posted by blindhamster
I'd like to see D&D elves get more of the elven features too, I don't much care about inclusivity with non humans, Humans should absolutely cover all our real world ethnicities, elves? They have their own very specific looks and have done in D&D for a long while now. Halflings tend to have much more human features so makes sense for them to probably mimic real world human ethnicities too. IMO dwarves probably shouldn't as again, their features are so strong with the wide noses, squad faces, bushy hair, broad chins etc.If Gnomes came in, they might have

Elven features should be more delicate than humans, have more of an androgynous appearance (take my avatar, its some art of an elf PC I play in pnp, a number of people have been confused over their gender for the full picture), their eyes should have a bit of a slant to them, being almond shaped. Their facial hair should tend toward fine as well, rather than bushy, with no beards etc (thats already correct though), more slender faces, more angular too. They simply shouldn't look human, but they should still look attractive in an inhuman way. If anything, the difference between wood/high and drow elves should perhaps be a bit larger, but i'd hesitate to use real world ethnicities across the different elf subraces either. Wood Elves should be more rugged, drow and high elves more elegant, classic drow art had males tend toward bushier eyebrows lol, both males and females tended to have very thick heads of hair.


That sums up.
Posted By: Hachina Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 13/10/20 11:54 PM
There is asian feature, at least on the male side, one of the 5 face is asian type.

I think the elves look perfect as they are. They are definitly very human like in D&D, with usually slender and more delicate feature, but not androgynous. Just look at drizz't cover to see what I mean . Looking at the Dnd art we had for decades, the elves we have in game definitly fit that.
Posted By: Blizz't Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 13/10/20 11:56 PM
"reevaluate your life" 🙄

Some people have no chill.
Originally Posted by Hachina
There is asian feature, at least on the male side, one of the 5 face is asian type.

I think the elves look perfect as they are. They are definitly very human like in D&D, with usually slender and more delicate feature, but not androgynous. Just look at drizz't cover to see what I mean . Looking at the Dnd art we had for decades, the elves we have in game definitly fit that.


[Linked Image]

I find this quite androgynous.

[edit] He is obviously a man, but at the same time, he has strong feminine characteristics. If he had a more delicate expression in this image it would be even easier to see them
Posted By: Sciophyte Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 14/10/20 12:08 AM
As long as they don't look like the Elves in D:OS2... *shudder*
Well... Yeah. But at least in DOS2 they have personality.
Posted By: Hachina Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 14/10/20 12:29 AM
Originally Posted by Anung un Rama
Originally Posted by Hachina
There is asian feature, at least on the male side, one of the 5 face is asian type.

I think the elves look perfect as they are. They are definitly very human like in D&D, with usually slender and more delicate feature, but not androgynous. Just look at drizz't cover to see what I mean . Looking at the Dnd art we had for decades, the elves we have in game definitly fit that.


[Linked Image]

I find this quite androgynous.

[edit] He is obviously a man, but at the same time, he has strong feminine characteristics. If he had a more delicate expression in this image it would be even easier to see them




Yes, this illustration definitly has some very delicate feature. ; I think its because of the narrow chin and the shadow make its look even slender. Also the half lighting flatten his face, giving it a more lean and smooth look.

But you can look at Todd lockwood work, he has illustrated all the drizz't novel and Drizz't is manlier in his work. also the design for Wotc done by Brian Matyas recently is very manly. Sorry, I have trouble uploading pic on the forum.
Posted By: Lady Avyna Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 14/10/20 01:02 AM
I understand that you may not like that the elves have human facial features but the thing is that elves originate from Norse Mythology and that is how they were described or drawn. J R R Tollken Lord of the Rings takes his world's mythology from the Norse and he too depicted elves a human looking with pointy ears. Almost every fantasy world that I have encountered, from Lord of the Rings, Dragon Age, Skyrim, Zelda, ect. all pretty much look the same. Also, not every elf is the same race. You have High Elves, Wood Elves, Dark Elves (Drow), Moon Elves, Sun Elves, ect. They each have different looks as far as skin color, the size of ears and hairstyles BUT their facial features are pretty much the same. Yes, some of the males may look androgynyous but the thing this that in fantasy lore, elves are meant to look beautiful regardless of gender. Elves are also rarely depicted as super buff and masculine, they are for most part shown as having a fit lean figure, even if they are a warrior. Although most Elves are usually rogues or mages.
Originally Posted by Hachina
Originally Posted by Anung un Rama
Originally Posted by Hachina
There is asian feature, at least on the male side, one of the 5 face is asian type.

I think the elves look perfect as they are. They are definitly very human like in D&D, with usually slender and more delicate feature, but not androgynous. Just look at drizz't cover to see what I mean . Looking at the Dnd art we had for decades, the elves we have in game definitly fit that.


[Linked Image]

I find this quite androgynous.

[edit] He is obviously a man, but at the same time, he has strong feminine characteristics. If he had a more delicate expression in this image it would be even easier to see them




Yes, this illustration definitly has some very delicate feature. ; I think its because of the narrow chin and the shadow make its look even slender. Also the half lighting flatten his face, giving it a more lean and smooth look.

But you can look at Todd lockwood work, he has illustrated all the drizz't novel and Drizz't is manlier in his work. also the design for Wotc done by Brian Matyas recently is very manly. Sorry, I have trouble uploading pic on the forum.


The drizzt designed by Todd Lockwood is basically what I think a drow should be. In his drawings, he perfectly captured the style used in 3rd edition books. And even though it's another artist's version i can still see the female characteristics, but that doesn't mean that he looks like a female, since he is clearly a male, it just means that he has the delicate features of the elves. In my opinion, you are confusing the character's strong and serious expressions with masculine traits.

As for Brian Matyas, I really didn't like the style he chose for Drizzt for the same reason as i said before, he looks too human.

Originally Posted by Lady Avyna
I understand that you may not like that the elves have human facial features but the thing is that elves originate from Norse Mythology and that is how they were described or drawn. J R R Tollken Lord of the Rings takes his world's mythology from the Norse and he too depicted elves a human looking with pointy ears. Almost every fantasy world that I have encountered, from Lord of the Rings, Dragon Age, Skyrim, Zelda, ect. all pretty much look the same. Also, not every elf is the same race. You have High Elves, Wood Elves, Dark Elves (Drow), Moon Elves, Sun Elves, ect. They each have different looks as far as skin color, the size of ears and hairstyles BUT their facial features are pretty much the same. Yes, some of the males may look androgynyous but the thing this that in fantasy lore, elves are meant to look beautiful regardless of gender. Elves are also rarely depicted as super buff and masculine, they are for most part shown as having a fit lean figure, even if they are a warrior. Although most Elves are usually rogues or mages.



I don't think that this other works of fantasy or the norse mythology matter in this subject since we already know how the elves from Forgotten Realms should look like, and it's certainly not how they're being portrayed in game.


Posted By: Lady Avyna Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 14/10/20 02:29 AM
Originally Posted by Anung un Rama
Originally Posted by Lady Avyna
I understand that you may not like that the elves have human facial features but the thing is that elves originate from Norse Mythology and that is how they were described or drawn. J R R Tollken Lord of the Rings takes his world's mythology from the Norse and he too depicted elves a human looking with pointy ears. Almost every fantasy world that I have encountered, from Lord of the Rings, Dragon Age, Skyrim, Zelda, ect. all pretty much look the same. Also, not every elf is the same race. You have High Elves, Wood Elves, Dark Elves (Drow), Moon Elves, Sun Elves, ect. They each have different looks as far as skin color, the size of ears and hairstyles BUT their facial features are pretty much the same. Yes, some of the males may look androgynyous but the thing this that in fantasy lore, elves are meant to look beautiful regardless of gender. Elves are also rarely depicted as super buff and masculine, they are for most part shown as having a fit lean figure, even if they are a warrior. Although most Elves are usually rogues or mages.



I don't think that this other works of fantasy or the norse mythology matter in this subject since we already know how the elves from Forgotten Realms should look like, and it's certainly not how they're being portrayed in game.





If you look at the elves from Neverwinter Nights from BioWare and the mmorpg Neverwinter from Cryptic Studios which is also from the same universe as The Forgotten Realms but I believe in a different land, they also look the same. They don't look different. It's also produced by WOTC (Wizards of the Coast) who owns the D&D franchise, the elves all have "human" features and different subraces like I mentioned before. So, in Larian's defense, they are depicting the elves the correct way, per WOTC D&D. Also, keep in mind that this is only the 1st act of the game, we still don't know if other elves might look different but again all of this has to be approved by WOTC or they wouldn't have licensed Baldur's Gate to Larian.
Posted By: BrianDavion Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 14/10/20 02:36 AM
Originally Posted by Takamori
Originally Posted by Goldberry
Originally Posted by Takamori
Well the character creator is missing a lot of features I believe?
From gameplay pov not being able to choose your starter equipment and neither the variant rules.
And Aesthetics of missing faces.

As for the OP itself, me being an Asian fella, whats the issue of allowing me to do a character from other races that I could relate with? Faerun already have Kozakura that is basically Japan in Faerun. So having other races with other cultural takes is not far streching it. I understand the cultural root of the Folk being European, but thing change or it would be a constant copy pasta of Tolkien, changes like this for example allow you to be a European heavily armored knight to fight Onis and other Folk creatures that with a ultra conservative(in the sense of no changes not the political spectrum) wouldn't allow to.


This is not a matter of diversity and inclusion really, at least not to me, and I am of mixed heritage, I do not look caucasic. To me it is about building an immersive world that makes sense, and if you are going to have races that are not human, they should be represented in... Well. A non human way. Otherwise what is the point of them. They are not supposed to look caucasic, black, indian, asian, or anything other than their own.

Every time you take a fantasy race, and you strip it from the things that make it unique and different, and humanize it, well... The world is less rich, and less interesting.


Well they have human like features like you can recognize the basic facial structure, jawline, eyes with iris, teeth, face ratio and so on. From what I'm getting from the topic is that elves are not Androgynous enough? The only thing make humans different from elves is the ears, therefore the good old elf cursing "God damn knife ears"



Bringing a quote from dragon age to discuss forgotten realms elves makes your entire arguement fall apart. elves in FR and elves in DA are VEEEEEEEEEEEEEEERY differant
Posted By: Lady Avyna Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 14/10/20 02:39 AM
[img]https://www.amazon.com/Evermeet-Island-Elves-Forgotten-Realms/dp/0786913541[/img]

The image in the link is from a Dungeons and Dragon novel about the elves and you will see in the image the elf has human facial features with the only difference being that he has pointy ears. If you look at Baldur's Gate and compare it to the Forgotten Realms novel. They look pretty much the same in regards to facial features.
Posted By: Hachina Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 14/10/20 02:42 AM
Originally Posted by Anung un Rama
Originally Posted by Hachina
Originally Posted by Anung un Rama
Originally Posted by Hachina
There is asian feature, at least on the male side, one of the 5 face is asian type.

I think the elves look perfect as they are. They are definitly very human like in D&D, with usually slender and more delicate feature, but not androgynous. Just look at drizz't cover to see what I mean . Looking at the Dnd art we had for decades, the elves we have in game definitly fit that.


[Linked Image]

I find this quite androgynous.

[edit] He is obviously a man, but at the same time, he has strong feminine characteristics. If he had a more delicate expression in this image it would be even easier to see them




Yes, this illustration definitly has some very delicate feature. ; I think its because of the narrow chin and the shadow make its look even slender. Also the half lighting flatten his face, giving it a more lean and smooth look.

But you can look at Todd lockwood work, he has illustrated all the drizz't novel and Drizz't is manlier in his work. also the design for Wotc done by Brian Matyas recently is very manly. Sorry, I have trouble uploading pic on the forum.


The drizzt designed by Todd Lockwood is basically what I think a drow should be. In his drawings, he perfectly captured the style used in 3rd edition books. And even though it's another artist's version i can still see the female characteristics, but that doesn't mean that he looks like a female, since he is clearly a male, it just means that he has the delicate features of the elves. In my opinion, you are confusing the character's strong and serious expressions with masculine traits.

As for Brian Matyas, I really didn't like the style he chose for Drizzt for the same reason as i said before, he looks too human.



Making Drizz't more feminine doesn't make him any less human , though.

Anyways, he does has very masculine trait as well , such as big jaw, receding forehead and proeminent forehead, chiseled feature. But the slender chin and hollowed cheeks give him this slender look.
Originally Posted by Lady Avyna
[img]https://www.amazon.com/Evermeet-Island-Elves-Forgotten-Realms/dp/0786913541[/img]

The image in the link is from a Dungeons and Dragon novel about the elves and you will see in the image the elf has human facial features with the only difference being that he has pointy ears. If you look at Baldur's Gate and compare it to the Forgotten Realms novel. They look pretty much the same in regards to facial features.


You can show me all the derivatives of D&D it makes no difference to me, because what matters is the original material. All these games and the cover of the novel you mentioned are the result of artists who don't know the lore and WOTC don't caring to make sure it's correct, since what really matters is that they have pointy ears right?...🙄 Look, you may like the elves the way they are now, but I want them to be more than slightly different humans.
Responding Hachina:

[/quote]Making Drizz't more feminine doesn't make him any less human , though.

Anyways, he does has very masculine trait as well , such as big jaw, receding forehead and proeminent forehead, chiseled feature. But the slender chin and hollowed cheeks give him this slender look.[/quote]




- This is exactly what makes them more androgynous. They have feminine and masculine characteristics.

- You are right. Making elfs more androgynous doesn't make them more human, but this is just a detail that is missing.
Posted By: Lady Avyna Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 14/10/20 03:48 AM
Then your problem is with WOTC and not Larian. WOTC still has the final say when it comes to anything that deals with Dungeons and Dragons as they are the one expanding the DnD universe. The elves are going to look the way they want them to look, which to me, they still look like elves. How else do you want them to look, if not human like? Do you want them to look more like WOW or Elder Scrolls? At the end of the day it's their franchise and we can either accept it and play or choose to walk away from it.
Originally Posted by Lady Avyna
Then your problem is with WOTC and not Larian. WOTC still has the final say when it comes to anything that deals with Dungeons and Dragons as they are the one expanding the DnD universe. The elves are going to look the way they want them to look, which to me, they still look like elves. How else do you want them to look, if not human like? Do you want them to look more like WOW or Elder Scrolls? At the end of the day it's their franchise and we can either accept it and play or choose to walk away from it.


- How else do you want them to look, if not human like?

Like elves of the Forgotten Realms universe.

- Do you want them to look more like WOW or Elder Scrolls?

Nop.

[img]http://https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcTbhPwUAlG--SG8hg-yIqUuiI_tn2Fq1-0bow&usqp=CAU[/img]

As i said before i want then to look like the elves of the FR universe.

[img]http://https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcTQZsugp6h6cTa-IMpvf4_uIvKuGQ25Mzjd0w&usqp=CAU[/img]

[img]https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcThGxSfot_xRsJ0cMsJqA1GncCI9wIbHvEzkA&usqp=CAU[/img]

[img]https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcT4LFekBCWSpArzA8SRc9oATrzbXmLn9U6mBQ&usqp=CAU[/img]



You understand now?

Posted By: Lady Avyna Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 14/10/20 04:21 AM
Originally Posted by Anung un Rama
Originally Posted by Lady Avyna
Then your problem is with WOTC and not Larian. WOTC still has the final say when it comes to anything that deals with Dungeons and Dragons as they are the one expanding the DnD universe. The elves are going to look the way they want them to look, which to me, they still look like elves. How else do you want them to look, if not human like? Do you want them to look more like WOW or Elder Scrolls? At the end of the day it's their franchise and we can either accept it and play or choose to walk away from it.


- How else do you want them to look, if not human like?

Like elves of the Forgotten Realms universe.

- Do you want them to look more like WOW or Elder Scrolls?

Nop.

[img]http://https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcTbhPwUAlG--SG8hg-yIqUuiI_tn2Fq1-0bow&usqp=CAU[/img]

As i said before i want then to look like the elves of the FR universe.

[img]http://https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcTQZsugp6h6cTa-IMpvf4_uIvKuGQ25Mzjd0w&usqp=CAU[/img]

[img]https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcThGxSfot_xRsJ0cMsJqA1GncCI9wIbHvEzkA&usqp=CAU[/img]

[img]https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcT4LFekBCWSpArzA8SRc9oATrzbXmLn9U6mBQ&usqp=CAU[/img]



You understand now?



What you showed me in the images above is pretty much what I have been telling you. They still have human facial features. I don't understand what your problem is then if you find those images acceptable.
Posted By: Goldberry Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 14/10/20 04:28 AM
Originally Posted by Lady Avyna
What you showed me in the images above is pretty much what I have been telling you. They still have human facial features. I don't understand what your problem is then if you find those images acceptable.


That none of the current heads look like the elves are descripted in official source books and artwork. Again, I will post this:

[Linked Image]

All of the current heads are closer to the human sketch than the full blood elf sketch. Asking for the devs to completely revamp the elves might be too much asking, but I am sure it is not all that much to ask for at least a few heads that look more traditional for people who enjoy elves as they are depicted in the manuals. That way, everyone can be happy, and it's a win-win smile

Even in the old baldur's gate portraits, while some portraits were a little off, others were still very accurate to the sketch. Per instance, both Aerie and Jaheira very closely resemble the elven sketch, with the triangular shaped head and slanted eyes.

[Linked Image]


Posted By: Lady Avyna Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 14/10/20 04:37 AM
Originally Posted by Goldberry
Originally Posted by Lady Avyna
What you showed me in the images above is pretty much what I have been telling you. They still have human facial features. I don't understand what your problem is then if you find those images acceptable.


That none of the current heads look like the elves are descripted in official source books and artwork. Again, I will post this:

[Linked Image]

All of the current heads are closer to the human sketch than the full blood elf sketch. Asking for the devs to completely revamp the elves might be too much asking, but I am sure it is not all that much to ask for at least a few heads that look more traditional for people who enjoy elves as they are depicted in the manuals. That way, everyone can be happy, and it's a win-win smile




I have seen this image before but like I mentioned, if you look closely, those elves are still human-like. The difference are the pointy ears, slight eye shape and size, and their face is a bit more angular but at the end of the day, they are still human-like. The OP mention they didn't like that the elves look human with pointy ears. Shadowheart is a half elf so it makes sense for her to look more human. Astarion is a full elf but he's a vampire, maybe they could of made him look more different but the problem is that he a romanceable companion and so they also want to make him look appealing.
Posted By: Goldberry Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 14/10/20 04:41 AM
Originally Posted by Lady Avyna
I have seen this image before but like I mentioned, if you look closely, those elves are still human-like. The difference are the pointy ears, slight eye shape and size, and their face is a bit more angular but at the end of the day, they are still human-like. The OP mention they didn't like that the elves look human with pointy ears. Shadowheart is a half elf so it makes sense for her to look more human. Astarion is a full elf but he's a vampire, maybe they could of made him look more different but the problem is that he a romanceable companion and so they also want to make him look appealing.


I'm pretty sure nobody wants them to look monstruous or ugly, just less relatable while still beautiful and that touch of strangeness to them that makes them seem not caucasic, nor african, nor asian, nor anything but elves.
Posted By: Lotus Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 14/10/20 04:42 AM
Originally Posted by Lady Avyna
Originally Posted by Anung un Rama
Originally Posted by Lady Avyna
Then your problem is with WOTC and not Larian. WOTC still has the final say when it comes to anything that deals with Dungeons and Dragons as they are the one expanding the DnD universe. The elves are going to look the way they want them to look, which to me, they still look like elves. How else do you want them to look, if not human like? Do you want them to look more like WOW or Elder Scrolls? At the end of the day it's their franchise and we can either accept it and play or choose to walk away from it.


- How else do you want them to look, if not human like?

Like elves of the Forgotten Realms universe.

- Do you want them to look more like WOW or Elder Scrolls?

Nop.

[img]http://https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcTbhPwUAlG--SG8hg-yIqUuiI_tn2Fq1-0bow&usqp=CAU[/img]

As i said before i want then to look like the elves of the FR universe.

[img]http://https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcTQZsugp6h6cTa-IMpvf4_uIvKuGQ25Mzjd0w&usqp=CAU[/img]

[img]https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcThGxSfot_xRsJ0cMsJqA1GncCI9wIbHvEzkA&usqp=CAU[/img]

[img]https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcT4LFekBCWSpArzA8SRc9oATrzbXmLn9U6mBQ&usqp=CAU[/img]



You understand now?



What you showed me in the images above is pretty much what I have been telling you. They still have human facial features. I don't understand what your problem is then if you find those images acceptable.


Of course they have human facial feature they are HUMANOID just like halfling, dwarves, tiefling even Orcs have human feature. What she mean is elf have more slanted eyes(not asian) are a bit leaner with a softer and narrow face, they shouldn't have the facial characteristic of the human races, Looking at an elf you should not see that your looking at someone of asian descent with pointed ears or someone of african or even european descent, which is exactly what we see looking at elves..they look TOO human...Frankly they should just scrap the presets head and give us sliders or if we have to have the presets give us something to modify them.
Posted By: Lady Avyna Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 14/10/20 04:47 AM
Originally Posted by Goldberry
Originally Posted by Lady Avyna
I have seen this image before but like I mentioned, if you look closely, those elves are still human-like. The difference are the pointy ears, slight eye shape and size, and their face is a bit more angular but at the end of the day, they are still human-like. The OP mention they didn't like that the elves look human with pointy ears. Shadowheart is a half elf so it makes sense for her to look more human. Astarion is a full elf but he's a vampire, maybe they could of made him look more different but the problem is that he a romanceable companion and so they also want to make him look appealing.


I'm pretty sure nobody wants them to look monstruous or ugly, just less relatable while still beautiful and that touch of strangeness to them that makes them seem not caucasic, nor african, nor asian, nor anything but elves.



When it comes to elves not looking similar to real world races that is more of a personal choice but what about people of those races that may want to be an elf that represents them? That's also a personal choice. This would be up to Larian and WOTC and they can make the elves look like what you want but still tweak it represent those races.
Posted By: Lady Avyna Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 14/10/20 04:48 AM
Originally Posted by Lotus
Originally Posted by Lady Avyna
Originally Posted by Anung un Rama
Originally Posted by Lady Avyna
Then your problem is with WOTC and not Larian. WOTC still has the final say when it comes to anything that deals with Dungeons and Dragons as they are the one expanding the DnD universe. The elves are going to look the way they want them to look, which to me, they still look like elves. How else do you want them to look, if not human like? Do you want them to look more like WOW or Elder Scrolls? At the end of the day it's their franchise and we can either accept it and play or choose to walk away from it.


- How else do you want them to look, if not human like?

Like elves of the Forgotten Realms universe.

- Do you want them to look more like WOW or Elder Scrolls?

Nop.

[img]http://https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcTbhPwUAlG--SG8hg-yIqUuiI_tn2Fq1-0bow&usqp=CAU[/img]

As i said before i want then to look like the elves of the FR universe.

[img]http://https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcTQZsugp6h6cTa-IMpvf4_uIvKuGQ25Mzjd0w&usqp=CAU[/img]

[img]https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcThGxSfot_xRsJ0cMsJqA1GncCI9wIbHvEzkA&usqp=CAU[/img]

[img]https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcT4LFekBCWSpArzA8SRc9oATrzbXmLn9U6mBQ&usqp=CAU[/img]



You understand now?



What you showed me in the images above is pretty much what I have been telling you. They still have human facial features. I don't understand what your problem is then if you find those images acceptable.


Of course they have human facial feature they are HUMANOID just like halfling, dwarves, tiefling even Orcs have human feature. What she mean is elf have more slanted eyes(not asian) are a bit leaner with a softer and narrow face, they shouldn't have the facial characteristic of the human races, Looking at an elf you should not see that your looking at someone of asian descent with pointed ears or someone of african or even european descent, which is exactly what we see looking at elves..they look TOO human...Frankly they should just scrap the presets head and give us sliders or if we have to have the presets give us something to modify them.


Like I said to the post before you. They can still make the elves look like elves and represent those races for the players of those races that want to play as an elf.
Posted By: Arideya Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 14/10/20 04:50 AM
Yeah the image above is what I've been expecting elves to be, or at least something similar. I'm wondering though if the real issue is in the animations and facial expressions. I don't know how they work, but I am wondering in how much you can "distort" a human face before your animations start being weird. Although the range of faces is wide in the game and you have smaller faces with features closer to each other and longer faces with features further away, so idk.

Originally Posted by Goldberry


I'm pretty sure nobody wants them to look monstruous or ugly, just less relatable while still beautiful and that touch of strangeness to them that makes them seem not caucasic, nor african, nor asian, nor anything but elves.


The problem with the image you shared is not that its an alien face, its that its one type of the face. When you start creating variations to have different-looking faces, you are bound to get into a territory of various lip shapes, eyelids, eyes, nose, cheeks forehead, etc. Otherwise you end up with 10 presets that look exactly the same. Thats when the diversity comes in, i.e. the lips could be slightly thinner or thicker, the cheeks more concave or more convex etc. There are no "elven" features, there are just variations of human features mapped on the distorted head.
Originally Posted by Lady Avyna
Originally Posted by Anung un Rama
Originally Posted by Lady Avyna
Then your problem is with WOTC and not Larian. WOTC still has the final say when it comes to anything that deals with Dungeons and Dragons as they are the one expanding the DnD universe. The elves are going to look the way they want them to look, which to me, they still look like elves. How else do you want them to look, if not human like? Do you want them to look more like WOW or Elder Scrolls? At the end of the day it's their franchise and we can either accept it and play or choose to walk away from it.


- How else do you want them to look, if not human like?

Like elves of the Forgotten Realms universe.

- Do you want them to look more like WOW or Elder Scrolls?

Nop.

[img]http://https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcTbhPwUAlG--SG8hg-yIqUuiI_tn2Fq1-0bow&usqp=CAU[/img]

As i said before i want then to look like the elves of the FR universe.

[img]http://https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcTQZsugp6h6cTa-IMpvf4_uIvKuGQ25Mzjd0w&usqp=CAU[/img]

[img]https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcThGxSfot_xRsJ0cMsJqA1GncCI9wIbHvEzkA&usqp=CAU[/img]

[img]https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcT4LFekBCWSpArzA8SRc9oATrzbXmLn9U6mBQ&usqp=CAU[/img]



You understand now?



What you showed me in the images above is pretty much what I have been telling you. They still have human facial features. I don't understand what your problem is then if you find those images acceptable.



There is a big difference between the face options we have now and how the elves really are according to the description and art of D&D books. Even in the drawings that they looked more human, they were still more delicate and still had some elvish characteristics.

In this image you can see that the pure elf has more human characteristics than the half elf, which should be the other way around.
[Linked Image]

And here we can see how the structure of the elven face is different.
[Linked Image]


Elves are not human, they come from another world, so they should be represented as such. With bodies and faces different from humans, but still endowed with extreme beauty. Of course, in the end there are more similarities than differences, but I think that with so much potential it is a mistake to leave the elves as they are now.
Posted By: Lady Avyna Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 14/10/20 04:57 AM
Originally Posted by Anung un Rama
Originally Posted by Lady Avyna
Originally Posted by Anung un Rama
Originally Posted by Lady Avyna
Then your problem is with WOTC and not Larian. WOTC still has the final say when it comes to anything that deals with Dungeons and Dragons as they are the one expanding the DnD universe. The elves are going to look the way they want them to look, which to me, they still look like elves. How else do you want them to look, if not human like? Do you want them to look more like WOW or Elder Scrolls? At the end of the day it's their franchise and we can either accept it and play or choose to walk away from it.


- How else do you want them to look, if not human like?

Like elves of the Forgotten Realms universe.

- Do you want them to look more like WOW or Elder Scrolls?

Nop.

[img]http://https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcTbhPwUAlG--SG8hg-yIqUuiI_tn2Fq1-0bow&usqp=CAU[/img]

As i said before i want then to look like the elves of the FR universe.

[img]http://https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcTQZsugp6h6cTa-IMpvf4_uIvKuGQ25Mzjd0w&usqp=CAU[/img]

[img]https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcThGxSfot_xRsJ0cMsJqA1GncCI9wIbHvEzkA&usqp=CAU[/img]

[img]https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcT4LFekBCWSpArzA8SRc9oATrzbXmLn9U6mBQ&usqp=CAU[/img]



You understand now?



What you showed me in the images above is pretty much what I have been telling you. They still have human facial features. I don't understand what your problem is then if you find those images acceptable.



There is a big difference between the face options we have now and how the elves really are according to the description and art of D&D books. Even in the drawings that they looked more human, they were still more delicate and still had some elvish characteristics.

In this image you can see that the pure elf has more human characteristics than the half elf, which should be the other way around.
[Linked Image]

And here we can see how the structure of the elven face is different.
[Linked Image]


Elves are not human, they come from another world, so they should be represented as such. With bodies and faces different from humans, but still endowed with extreme beauty. Of course, in the end there are more similarities than differences, but I think that with so much potential it is a mistake to leave the elves as they are now.


The first image I can see what you mean, it should be the other way around. My previous reponses were based on the argument of human-like. I have no problem if they make the eyes a little bigger and somewhat slanted. That's fine by me. All I was saying is that's still human-like to me. The bigger slanted eyes with larger pupils reminds me of Dragon Age two before Bioware changed it. So, I can understand.
Posted By: Goldberry Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 14/10/20 04:57 AM
I think there should be less of an argument of making all elves look one way or another and just give both options.

Some traditional looking heads for those of us who prefer an alienness to our elves, and the human like version for those who want to see themselves represented.

I don't agree with it. I dont think a fantasy race needs to represent anything other than themselves, and before you mention, I am mixed race myself.

Still. It doesn't have to be one way or the other. It can be both and everyone is happy.
Posted By: Lady Avyna Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 14/10/20 05:03 AM
Originally Posted by Goldberry
I think there should be less of an argument of making all elves look one way or another and just give both options.

Some traditional looking heads for those of us who prefer an alienness to our elves, and the human like version for those who want to see themselves represented.

I don't agree with it. I dont think a fantasy race needs to represent anything other than themselves, and before you mention, I am mixed race myself.

Still. It doesn't have to be one way or the other. It can be both and everyone is happy.



It doesn't bother me if they have a traditional look. The elves from Dragon Age 2 had a traditional look with larger eyes and pupils and slightly slanted. I can also understand if players want to be represented. Like I said, they can always tweak it but still keep it traditional. Maybe just have the hair and skin color represent race (fair for Caucasians, different shades of tan for Hispanic and Asians and darker complexions for Africans).
Originally Posted by Goldberry
I think there should be less of an argument of making all elves look one way or another and just give both options.

Some traditional looking heads for those of us who prefer an alienness to our elves, and the human like version for those who want to see themselves represented.

I don't agree with it. I dont think a fantasy race needs to represent anything other than themselves, and before you mention, I am mixed race myself.

Still. It doesn't have to be one way or the other. It can be both and everyone is happy.


I agree, but I have to admit that it breaks my immersion a bit, since they will use these models for npc's in the game.
Posted By: Goldberry Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 14/10/20 05:08 AM
Originally Posted by Anung un Rama
I agree, but I have to admit that it breaks my immersion a bit, since they will use these models for npc's in the game.


I understand. I feel the same way. I don't play a -fantasy- game that is specially known for its rich nuance of non human races to be reminded of our world. It kind of ruins the magic the closer it feels to home.
Posted By: KillerRabbit Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 14/10/20 05:52 AM
Leaving aside all of the ____ for humans comments, I think it's right to say it doesn't have to be all or nothing. A few Lockhart type elves would be nice. I liked the Lirel Baenre drawing for instance.
Id guess the idea elves or dwarves or dragonborne need to somewhat represent the cultures of earth is not really an issue for anyone. We can have each fantasy race vary physically as if we're seeing some of their separate cultures. Maybe that's what Larian was trying to do.

But I dont think Larian would be in trouble if each fantasy race simply had their classical DnD fantasy appearance. Humans, though, should definitely represent all of earth well. And half-races should somewhat, too.
Posted By: DumbleDorf Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 14/10/20 06:27 AM
Originally Posted by Goldberry
Originally Posted by Lady Avyna
I have seen this image before but like I mentioned, if you look closely, those elves are still human-like. The difference are the pointy ears, slight eye shape and size, and their face is a bit more angular but at the end of the day, they are still human-like. The OP mention they didn't like that the elves look human with pointy ears. Shadowheart is a half elf so it makes sense for her to look more human. Astarion is a full elf but he's a vampire, maybe they could of made him look more different but the problem is that he a romanceable companion and so they also want to make him look appealing.


I'm pretty sure nobody wants them to look monstruous or ugly, just less relatable while still beautiful and that touch of strangeness to them that makes them seem not caucasic, nor african, nor asian, nor anything but elves.


Nobody except Larian who have decided entirely themselves to do as such without any consideration to how it would actually affect any group of people.
Posted By: Lady Avyna Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 14/10/20 07:55 AM
Originally Posted by DumbleDorf
Originally Posted by Goldberry
Originally Posted by Lady Avyna
I have seen this image before but like I mentioned, if you look closely, those elves are still human-like. The difference are the pointy ears, slight eye shape and size, and their face is a bit more angular but at the end of the day, they are still human-like. The OP mention they didn't like that the elves look human with pointy ears. Shadowheart is a half elf so it makes sense for her to look more human. Astarion is a full elf but he's a vampire, maybe they could of made him look more different but the problem is that he a romanceable companion and so they also want to make him look appealing.


I'm pretty sure nobody wants them to look monstruous or ugly, just less relatable while still beautiful and that touch of strangeness to them that makes them seem not caucasic, nor african, nor asian, nor anything but elves.


Nobody except Larian who have decided entirely themselves to do as such without any consideration to how it would actually affect any group of people.


I'm gonna answer you here because it seems like your post was locked where people can't respond. To the issue of fantasy races having non-white facial features, I don't see what the problem is as long as they act like their fantasy race. For example, if you have an Orc that may have Asian or black facial features but still behaves like an orc, what is the problem with that? I also just opened up the game and went through every race and found that for females, only the Humans and Tiefllings (who have human origins) have Asian and black facial features, which is fine. Now, when it comes to the males, they seem to have mixed it up and gave Asian and black features to full Elves and Drow with the Humans only having white and black features and no Asian. They should have done for the males what they did for the females for only Humans and Tieflings, who are of human origin. To me personally, it is not game breaking to have a humanoid being resemble real world minorities and it is NOT an immersion killer. If that is the problem for some then that might make that person seem like a racist. As I mentioned to you before in the other thread, there are now Asian and black Vulcans but they still behave as Vulcans. It doesn't ruin Star Trek. So, the same can go for Dungeons and Dragons, I don't think having minorities depicted in humanoid creatures is a big deal as long as they remain to to their fantasy race's culture and personality.
Posted By: Labayu Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 14/10/20 08:09 AM
Originally Posted by DumbleDorf
Nobody except Larian who have decided entirely themselves to do as such without any consideration to how it would actually affect any group of people.
Seems much more likely to have come from Wizards of the Coast than from Larian.

Originally Posted by Lady Avyna
As I mentioned to you before in the other thread, there are now Asian and black Vulcans but they still behave as Vulcans. It doesn't ruin Star Trek. So, the same can go for Dungeons and Dragons, I don't think having minorities depicted in humanoid creatures is a big deal as long as they remain to to their fantasy race's culture and personality.
I know I'm being pedantic, but the majority of the world's population are not "minorities".
Originally Posted by Goldberry
I am of the opinion myself that elves don't have to represent anyone but elves, same goes for all non human races. And they are not meant to look caucasic either, I do not know why people complain about caucasic elves when they were not represented that way in forgotten realms, plus, they come in a variety of shapes and colours.

Humans on the other hand, are the counterpart that has many kinds of cultures with parallels to our world, and it is both accurate and appropriate to represent them.

Either way, it might as well be beating a dead horse, this is the direction the creative team took.

Originally Posted by Synaryn
What would you consider elven features?


Very angular features, with an inverted triangle shape, arched brows and slanted eyes, very thin and delicate features. I like this artwork the most, it is in the player's handbook of one of the older editions. It really does not look caucasic to me, but something entirely else, and very mixed depends on where you focus.

[Linked Image]







I love this artwork, indeed more elvish faces would be nice!
Posted By: DumbleDorf Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 14/10/20 08:17 AM
Originally Posted by Lady Avyna
Originally Posted by DumbleDorf
Originally Posted by Goldberry
Originally Posted by Lady Avyna
I have seen this image before but like I mentioned, if you look closely, those elves are still human-like. The difference are the pointy ears, slight eye shape and size, and their face is a bit more angular but at the end of the day, they are still human-like. The OP mention they didn't like that the elves look human with pointy ears. Shadowheart is a half elf so it makes sense for her to look more human. Astarion is a full elf but he's a vampire, maybe they could of made him look more different but the problem is that he a romanceable companion and so they also want to make him look appealing.


I'm pretty sure nobody wants them to look monstruous or ugly, just less relatable while still beautiful and that touch of strangeness to them that makes them seem not caucasic, nor african, nor asian, nor anything but elves.


Nobody except Larian who have decided entirely themselves to do as such without any consideration to how it would actually affect any group of people.


I'm gonna answer you here because it seems like your post was locked where people can't respond. To the issue of fantasy races having non-white facial features, I don't see what the problem is as long as they act like their fantasy race. For example, if you have an Orc that may have Asian or black facial features but still behaves like an orc, what is the problem with that? I also just opened up the game and went through every race and found that for females, only the Humans and Tiefllings (who have human origins) have Asian and black facial features, which is fine. Now, when it comes to the males, they seem to have mixed it up and gave Asian and black features to full Elves and Drow with the Humans only having white and black features and no Asian. They should have done for the males what they did for the females for only Humans and Tieflings, who are of human origin. To me personally, it is not game breaking to have a humanoid being resemble real world minorities and it is NOT an immersion killer. If that is the problem for some then that might make that person seem like a racist. As I mentioned to you before in the other thread, there are now Asian and black Vulcans but they still behave as Vulcans. It doesn't ruin Star Trek. So, the same can go for Dungeons and Dragons, I don't think having minorities depicted in humanoid creatures is a big deal as long as they remain to to their fantasy race's culture and personality.


The issue is that WOTC and Larian are forcing this without ever having consulted anyone about it. They are deciding how they think that ethnic 'minorities' should be represented without their input.

It has nothing to do with gameplay or immersion and everything to do with misrepresentation and misappropriation of real peoples features.

It wouldn't even be an issue if WOTC / Larian werent being so bolsterously proud of doing it to appeal to whatever area of far leftism they think they are trying to satisfy.

Or if they simply made a fully customisable character generation method instead, which will likely still come.

I personally never had an issue with Drow being an evil race until WOTC somehow decided this was wrong because of real world racial issues and started making drow of all alignments. I had never read anything from any actual people to indicate that these decisions were any kind of rational response to any genuine criticisms.

So what purpose other than fake pandering does any of these decisions serve? Why are real world issues being used at all to influence how a fantasy world should be?
Posted By: KillerRabbit Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 14/10/20 08:36 AM
It was good while it lasted. But now I'm out.
Posted By: Lady Avyna Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 14/10/20 08:44 AM
Originally Posted by Labayu
Originally Posted by DumbleDorf
Nobody except Larian who have decided entirely themselves to do as such without any consideration to how it would actually affect any group of people.
Seems much more likely to have come from Wizards of the Coast than from Larian.

Originally Posted by Lady Avyna
As I mentioned to you before in the other thread, there are now Asian and black Vulcans but they still behave as Vulcans. It doesn't ruin Star Trek. So, the same can go for Dungeons and Dragons, I don't think having minorities depicted in humanoid creatures is a big deal as long as they remain to to their fantasy race's culture and personality.
I know I'm being pedantic, but the majority of the world's population are not "minorities".



Sorry, I live in the United States and unfortunately non-whites are minorities here, even though we are considered very diverse.
Posted By: Lady Avyna Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 14/10/20 08:53 AM
I don't understand why ethnic races being depicted in a video game is bothering you so much. As for WOTC or Larian not consulting enthic minorities about including them, when it comes to Baldur's gate, both Asian features and Black features are correct. There is no misrepresentation. I'm pretty sure that if an Asian or Black person plays Baldur's Gate 3, they might choose those features because it represents them. This is mostly for human, elf, and tiefling characters as they are the only ones I have seen with those ethnic features. Again, I don't see a problem with that, as an ethnic minority myself.
Originally Posted by DumbleDorf


It wouldn't even be an issue if WOTC / Larian werent being so bolsterously proud of doing it to appeal to whatever area of far leftism they think they are trying to satisfy.

So what purpose other than fake pandering does any of these decisions serve? Why are real world issues being used at all to influence how a fantasy world should be?


It's really sad that you're so full of some kind of toxic worldview that you automatically assume that any efforts toward inclusivity are unquestionably "appealing to far leftism" or "fake pandering". Like the very idea that some people, many people, are genuinely trying to just be decent (in a way that does not mesh with your priorities) does not even register as possible to you.
Posted By: Usako Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 14/10/20 09:00 AM
Originally Posted by Lady Avyna
I don't understand why ethnic races being depicted in a video game is bothering you so much. As for WOTC or Larian not consulting enthic minorities about including them, when it comes to Baldur's gate, both Asian features and Black features are correct. There is no misrepresentation. I'm pretty sure that if an Asian or Black person plays Baldur's Gate 3, they might choose those features because it represents them. This is mostly for human, elf, and tiefling characters as they are the only ones I have seen with those ethnic features. Again, I don't see a problem with that, as an ethnic minority myself.


+1
This! I did use a non-asian face for the human (because that one was more asian than my own face, I unfortunately did not inherit the typical high cheekbones etc, just the eyes - but mine are on the larger side for an SE asian), but it DOES make me happy to see a sort-of similar face so I can feel like it's me who's in the game smile

As someone (I don't remember after all those pages) said, nobody said to not additionally implement some more "traditional elven" faces? But why get rid of... choices?

Posted By: DumbleDorf Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 14/10/20 09:01 AM
Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
Originally Posted by DumbleDorf


It wouldn't even be an issue if WOTC / Larian werent being so bolsterously proud of doing it to appeal to whatever area of far leftism they think they are trying to satisfy.

So what purpose other than fake pandering does any of these decisions serve? Why are real world issues being used at all to influence how a fantasy world should be?


It's really sad that you're so full of some kind of toxic worldview that you automatically assume that any efforts toward inclusivity are unquestionably "appealing to far leftism" or "fake pandering". Like the very idea that some people, many people, are genuinely trying to just be decent (in a way that does not mesh with your priorities) does not even register as possible to you.


That is entirely what they are though. Nothing about this is about genuine inclusivity, it is simply all a publicity stunt for upvotes on Twitter.

Making virtual characters that look like real world people has absolutely nothing to do with inclusivity, its not even something that should need mentioning for anything other than publicity.

All companies simply use things like this to get positive attention and farm for upvotes on social media, Larian is no different.
Posted By: Labayu Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 14/10/20 09:11 AM
Originally Posted by Goldberry
Originally Posted by Lady Avyna
What you showed me in the images above is pretty much what I have been telling you. They still have human facial features. I don't understand what your problem is then if you find those images acceptable.


That none of the current heads look like the elves are descripted in official source books and artwork. Again, I will post this:

[Linked Image]

All of the current heads are closer to the human sketch than the full blood elf sketch. Asking for the devs to completely revamp the elves might be too much asking, but I am sure it is not all that much to ask for at least a few heads that look more traditional for people who enjoy elves as they are depicted in the manuals. That way, everyone can be happy, and it's a win-win smile

Even in the old baldur's gate portraits, while some portraits were a little off, others were still very accurate to the sketch. Per instance, both Aerie and Jaheira very closely resemble the elven sketch, with the triangular shaped head and slanted eyes.

[Linked Image]


Yes, this.
Posted By: vometia Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 14/10/20 09:29 AM
A reminder to please keep this away from real-world race politics as it seldom ends well. Stick to discussing the game design, please.
Posted By: DumbleDorf Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 14/10/20 09:43 AM
Originally Posted by vometia
A reminder to please keep this away from real-world race politics as it seldom ends well. Stick to discussing the game design, please.


Where can it be discussed then? You didn't mind the thread below about it, and then locked my separate one and already told me to use this thread instead?

http://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=669659&page=3

WOTC and Larian are both factually using real world politics to shape their character designs, so why am I not allowed to talk about that?
Posted By: blindhamster Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 14/10/20 09:46 AM
i think the existing elf heads "just" need to be tweaked, make noses more slender, jaws and chins narrower, eyes a little larger and more almond shaped. You don't need to totally remove the real world ethnic undertones, but the elves need to look like elves. rather than humans with pointy ears added.

I agree that elves look like humans to an extent still, because they're humanoid, but they don't need to look like humans in the same way. Technically, elven ethnicity is represented by their subraces (which, in the case of high elves actually covers three kinds: Sun, Moon and Star elves), so if you want to have some nods to real world ethnicities, they should probably be split between the subraces. Then you'd also want to limit the skin/eye/hair colours based on those subraces too.
Posted By: DumbleDorf Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 14/10/20 09:53 AM
Originally Posted by blindhamster
i think the existing elf heads "just" need to be tweaked, make noses more slender, jaws and chins narrower, eyes a little larger and more almond shaped. You don't need to totally remove the real world ethnic undertones, but the elves need to look like elves. rather than humans with pointy ears added.

I agree that elves look like humans to an extent still, because they're humanoid, but they don't need to look like humans in the same way. Technically, elven ethnicity is represented by their subraces (which, in the case of high elves actually covers three kinds: Sun, Moon and Star elves), so if you want to have some nods to real world ethnicities, they should probably be split between the subraces. Then you'd also want to limit the skin/eye/hair colours based on those subraces too.


The term humanoid is misused in the first place to simply mean 'bipedal', because whoever first coined the term didn't have a dictionary. If elves were simply meant to be another form of humans then they would be a subrace of humans not a separate one.

The full list of 'humanoid' creatures in D&D goes extremely far beyond things that simply look human, that the term cannot be logically applied to relate to the facial appearance.

If its meant to look human then it can be a human or a sub race of humans, or half human. If it's meant to be anything else then there is no reason why it needs to look or represent humans.
Posted By: vometia Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 14/10/20 10:12 AM
Originally Posted by DumbleDorf
Where can it be discussed then? You didn't mind the thread below about it, and then locked my separate one and already told me to use this thread instead?

http://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=669659&page=3

WOTC and Larian are both factually using real world politics to shape their character designs, so why am I not allowed to talk about that?

It is not an appropriate topic for this forum, especially given some of the inflammatory content I have already had to remove. Please do not bring it up again.
Posted By: Dark_Ansem Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 14/10/20 10:14 AM
Originally Posted by DumbleDorf
WOTC and Larian are both factually using real world politics to shape their character designs, so why am I not allowed to talk about that?


WotC maybe. How do you know about Larian?
Is the thought that elves have too closely resembled white Europeans in the classic depiction? I actually think only the very rare individual of any human culture might almost actually resemble a DnD elf - and I've seen very beautiful people of all skin tones blessed with the kind of physique and facial structure that approaches the elven style, not only white people.

I'm in favor of having the elves look less like white Euros if they look too disproportionately like them, and more uniquely like elves. And keeping the awesome range of skin tones Larian has included.
Posted By: Goldberry Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 14/10/20 11:06 AM
Originally Posted by The Drow Warlock
Is the thought that elves have too closely resembled white Europeans in the classic depiction? I actually think only the very rare individual of any human culture might almost actually resemble a DnD elf - and I've seen very beautiful people of all skin tones blessed with the kind of physique and facial structure that approaches the elven style, not only white people.

I'm in favor of having the elves look less like white Euros if they look too disproportionately like them, and more uniquely like elves. And keeping the awesome range of skin tones Larian has included.


Absolutely. I think a lot of people forget that two of the key words when describing an elf, in all editions, in all sources, is that they are unnervingly, hauntingly beautiful. That is, because they are strange, and not entirely human-like. Those words are not just simple words to describe beauty, they are very purposeful words to state they are not relatable. They are not supposed to look like anything a human is used to. In fact, they are even a minority race.

They are supposed to make you uncomfortable due to the strangeness of their symmetrical and impossible features. Representing them the way they are just misses the mark by far.

Originally Posted by _Vic_
I do not know if it´s already said in the thread, but right now Larian is using the model and character design of the art of the books of D&D5e books. This suggestion would be best served in WoTC forums.
That said, there are lots of representations of elves, from Santa´s elves to almost-goblinoid Harry Potter´s books elves to fairy elves or anime elves. It would be great if they have a different meshes and tones in character creation, but right now the depiction of the elves seems like a valid representation on how elves are in D&D. Does not strike as weird.


Some people keep repeating that, and yet:

[Linked Image]

THIS IS ALL 5E OFFICIAL ARTWORK I gathered from the manuals. People act like they don't exist. You can still see the high cheekbones, the slanted eyes, the triangular shaped face, all of it is there, if not as extremely displayed as it used to in older editions. Yet none of the current heads look like this. I would be happy with a few heads that have this sort of traditional features, the slanted eyes per instance are entirely missing.

Here, I'll make it easier for you to spot, in case you are genuinelly not seeing it:

[Linked Image]



Posted By: Nyanko Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 14/10/20 11:26 AM
Originally Posted by The Drow Warlock
Is the thought that elves have too closely resembled white Europeans in the classic depiction? I actually think only the very rare individual of any human culture might almost actually resemble a DnD elf - and I've seen very beautiful people of all skin tones blessed with the kind of physique and facial structure that approaches the elven style, not only white people.

I'm in favor of having the elves look less like white Euros if they look too disproportionately like them, and more uniquely like elves. And keeping the awesome range of skin tones Larian has included.


Well, Tolkien would surely disagree. And as he's the father of what elves are in most of the fantasy genre today, this has to be taken into account. Gary Gigax was very much inspired by the Tolkien elves when he wrote his own campaigns. The only exception he made was with the drow. Because the dark elves in Tolkien are the people of Eol, and they are dark only because they live in dark places but their skin is still as white as snow.

So if you intend to redefine what elves look like, you shouldn't take D&D ruleset for it. Cause their appearance is pretty much well defined already in the setting.

And if you are ready just like almost anything Netflix does nowadays to screw the original material, you should at least consider some people will surely be quite vocal about it.
Posted By: Goldberry Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 14/10/20 11:39 AM
Originally Posted by Nyanko


So if you intend to redefine what elves look like, you shouldn't take D&D ruleset for it. Cause their appearance is pretty much well defined already in the setting.


Uuuh. Is this a mispelling? Of course we should take the D&D sources into consideration :| What does Tolkien have to do with anything here? This is Forgotten Realms.

Originally Posted by Nyanko
Cause their appearance is pretty much well defined already in the setting.


Ironically, this is true. They are well defined, as I've expressed just the post before.

Posted By: Zeraman Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 14/10/20 11:40 AM
I admit I only skimread the thread but I don't know how all this discussion about human ethnic features is even relevant to the discussion when elves aren't supposed to look like any of them. Share features, sure, but not look like any specific human ethnicity. I didn't look at the male presets but I was disappointed when I noticed human and elf females shared faces. The fact half-elves didn't share any faces with either made me think elf faces were simply placeholder atm. Personally I find Janina Gavankar to be a good example of a real life person that looks elfy.

[Linked Image]

So my feedback is that elves need the human presets deleted and their own ones made with their own distinctive look. LotR movie elves =/= Faerun elves.
Originally Posted by Nyanko
Originally Posted by The Drow Warlock
Is the thought that elves have too closely resembled white Europeans in the classic depiction? I actually think only the very rare individual of any human culture might almost actually resemble a DnD elf - and I've seen very beautiful people of all skin tones blessed with the kind of physique and facial structure that approaches the elven style, not only white people.

I'm in favor of having the elves look less like white Euros if they look too disproportionately like them, and more uniquely like elves. And keeping the awesome range of skin tones Larian has included.


Well, Tolkien would surely disagree. And as he's the father of what elves are in most of the fantasy genre today, this has to be taken into account. Gary Gigax was very much inspired by the Tolkien elves when he wrote his own campaigns. The only exception he made was with the drow. Because the dark elves in Tolkien are the people of Eol, and they are dark only because they live in dark places but their skin is still as white as snow.

So if you intend to redefine what elves look like, you shouldn't take D&D ruleset for it. Cause their appearance is pretty much well defined already in the setting.

And if you are ready just like almost anything Netflix does nowadays to screw the original material, you should at least consider some people will surely be quite vocal about it.


I'm a bit confused on a the last line whether you're talking about D&D or Tolkein.

Firmly of the opinion that when playing in D&D Faerun, use the D&D Faerun material. This goes for Elves, Dwarves, Halfings, so on so forth. I can appreciate a wealth of knowledge on Tolkien's Elves and they were the original base for all others in fantasy - however...

I would like to see D&D use its own material, however adapted from elsewhere it might be. A thing was taken, changed and that changed thing is now the setting's normal. The diagram and pictures provided by Goldberry are perfect examples of that D&D material.
Originally Posted by Synaryn
What would you consider elven features?

I've always read elves as very slight/petite. Obviously for live action films like LoTR you work with what you've got, which is why they're humans with pointy ears, and it obviously varies from setting to setting, but I've always read elves in DnD following the same sort of build as I read in Tolkien's work-think 'scrawny teenager' bodies. Heck, I think shadowheart's a bit to thicc, and she's 'just' a half-elf.
This is ofc my personal opinion so don't expect poo to be flung if you disagree, lol.
Hence why I prefer fantasy character portraits. So much more creativity and freedom.
Wouldn't it be great and <NEXT GEN> if the paper-doll matched that favorite fantasy portrait? Some kind of overlay + custom physics? 20 years ago while playing BG2I would of thought by 2020 this would be reality...:( Common Larian you can do it! smile
Posted By: Infiltrator Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 14/10/20 12:14 PM
Three of the four elf/drow faces look very brute-like and I would never pick something like that unless I was gonna make a joke of a character. Half elves look pretty good. Larian just needs to tone down on the orc blood they keep pumping into elves.
Originally Posted by Lady Avyna
Originally Posted by DumbleDorf
Originally Posted by Goldberry
Originally Posted by Lady Avyna
I have seen this image before but like I mentioned, if you look closely, those elves are still human-like. The difference are the pointy ears, slight eye shape and size, and their face is a bit more angular but at the end of the day, they are still human-like. The OP mention they didn't like that the elves look human with pointy ears. Shadowheart is a half elf so it makes sense for her to look more human. Astarion is a full elf but he's a vampire, maybe they could of made him look more different but the problem is that he a romanceable companion and so they also want to make him look appealing.


I'm pretty sure nobody wants them to look monstruous or ugly, just less relatable while still beautiful and that touch of strangeness to them that makes them seem not caucasic, nor african, nor asian, nor anything but elves.


Nobody except Larian who have decided entirely themselves to do as such without any consideration to how it would actually affect any group of people.


I'm gonna answer you here because it seems like your post was locked where people can't respond. To the issue of fantasy races having non-white facial features, I don't see what the problem is as long as they act like their fantasy race. For example, if you have an Orc that may have Asian or black facial features but still behaves like an orc, what is the problem with that? I also just opened up the game and went through every race and found that for females, only the Humans and Tiefllings (who have human origins) have Asian and black facial features, which is fine. Now, when it comes to the males, they seem to have mixed it up and gave Asian and black features to full Elves and Drow with the Humans only having white and black features and no Asian. They should have done for the males what they did for the females for only Humans and Tieflings, who are of human origin. To me personally, it is not game breaking to have a humanoid being resemble real world minorities and it is NOT an immersion killer. If that is the problem for some then that might make that person seem like a racist. As I mentioned to you before in the other thread, there are now Asian and black Vulcans but they still behave as Vulcans. It doesn't ruin Star Trek. So, the same can go for Dungeons and Dragons, I don't think having minorities depicted in humanoid creatures is a big deal as long as they remain to to their fantasy race's culture and personality.



Are you trying to tell me that I am a racist?

Did you get to read what I wrote, and the opinions of other people who agree with me?

I really hope you are not an adult, as your level of understanding apparently belongs to a 12 year old child. So from now on i will deal with you taking into account your immaturity.

I will explain to you in the simplest way possible, as I am really bored with all this discussion. The elves of Forgotten Realms should not represent any ethnic group as they are not human, that is, neither European, African, Asian or any other. Elves have to resemble their own race, as they already have their physical characteristics defined by the books that this game is based on, and these characteristics make them unique, which is exactly what i and others want.
It is obvious that the game has to be representative, however, we want all these ethnic groups to be represented in the human options, which is currently lacking. Still, you and others may want nonhuman races to have more human features (which doesn't make a lot of sense to me) and as I said before, i accept that, but Larian should at least make these faces more like those of the elves, that is, sharp and angular features, since at the moment they have extremely human faces, especially males, which have very strong masculine features.

Well, that's my opinion, do what you want with it.

This is the last time I will post here, as this discussion has taken a completely wrong turn, and I hope that everyone who tried to turn this into a discussion about current policies will feel ashamed. That was never my intention. All of you lack the ability to interact with others in a non-offensive manner while trying to understand the opinion of others and give your own opinion without prejudice.
Posted By: DumbleDorf Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 14/10/20 01:53 PM
So from what I believe, Larian don't actually hire visual artists. The people making decisions for how everything looks are the same people programming and coding the game.

This is based on looking at their jobs advertised, and even if they do have anyone working that is described as being an artist, I would think all their background was also programming and coding and no art experience.

There are loads of visual artists with a long history in drawing and designing fantasy characters that could do a much better job of making the character models and appearances than Larian seem to be, this is evident in the fact that even most indie games have much nicer looking characters, as well as just about anything you can find on Deviant Art, also many games with all their community made mods and additional characters, but still a supposedly AAA game studio that charges $60 for their game still can't hire one?

A lot of people of course can't see anything wrong with the character models and think everything is fine, the thing is you can even get free games with better designed characters than this one has - a lot of people that start out as artists progress to making their own 'visual novel' based slide show with text games, many of which start out as free downloads with optional purchases.

But a $60 game made by a AAA studio has character models that look as bad as the ones we've currently gotten, and yes they are that bad relatively to other much cheaper and even free RPGs that you can already play, and even compared to other AAA games out there (Look at Witcher 3 and Cyberpunk characters, pretty much everything about them is perfect and flawless design).


I blame all of this on COSPLAY = boring character designs smile Im sure WOTC also had a hand in this. Very humanoid/ real people looking = boring in a fantasy setting.
Larian had some great stuff going in DOS2 with Fane/Red prince, even the elves looked great; super tall and slender.
Posted By: Labayu Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 14/10/20 02:00 PM
Originally Posted by DumbleDorf
There are loads of visual artists with a long history in drawing and designing fantasy characters that could do a much better job of making the character models and appearances than Larian seem to be, this is evident in the fact that even most indie games have much nicer looking characters, as well as just about anything you can find on Deviant Art, also many games with all their community made mods and additional characters, but still a supposedly AAA game studio that charges $60 for their game still can't hire one?
The heads are all 3D scans of real people. They've just been modified to look more like the other D&D races. You can see the same of the same scans that were used for humans were used for other races.
Posted By: DumbleDorf Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 14/10/20 02:02 PM
Originally Posted by Labayu
Originally Posted by DumbleDorf
There are loads of visual artists with a long history in drawing and designing fantasy characters that could do a much better job of making the character models and appearances than Larian seem to be, this is evident in the fact that even most indie games have much nicer looking characters, as well as just about anything you can find on Deviant Art, also many games with all their community made mods and additional characters, but still a supposedly AAA game studio that charges $60 for their game still can't hire one?
The heads are all 3D scans of real people. They've just been modified to look more like the other D&D races. You can see the same of the same scans that were used for humans were used for other races.


And this is exactly what the problem is. Nobody asked for this and very evidently, it works very poorly. The characters look terrible.
Originally Posted by Labayu
Originally Posted by DumbleDorf
There are loads of visual artists with a long history in drawing and designing fantasy characters that could do a much better job of making the character models and appearances than Larian seem to be, this is evident in the fact that even most indie games have much nicer looking characters, as well as just about anything you can find on Deviant Art, also many games with all their community made mods and additional characters, but still a supposedly AAA game studio that charges $60 for their game still can't hire one?
The heads are all 3D scans of real people. They've just been modified to look more like the other D&D races. You can see the same of the same scans that were used for humans were used for other races.

Cool and for what reason? Evidently not to improve the quality of the 3D model.
Posted By: DumbleDorf Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 14/10/20 02:12 PM
Originally Posted by CrestOfArtorias
Originally Posted by Labayu
Originally Posted by DumbleDorf
There are loads of visual artists with a long history in drawing and designing fantasy characters that could do a much better job of making the character models and appearances than Larian seem to be, this is evident in the fact that even most indie games have much nicer looking characters, as well as just about anything you can find on Deviant Art, also many games with all their community made mods and additional characters, but still a supposedly AAA game studio that charges $60 for their game still can't hire one?
The heads are all 3D scans of real people. They've just been modified to look more like the other D&D races. You can see the same of the same scans that were used for humans were used for other races.

Cool and for what reason? Evidently not to improve the quality of the 3D model.


For political reasons we are no longer allowed to discuss. Some stuff about diversity.
Posted By: Labayu Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 14/10/20 02:12 PM
Originally Posted by DumbleDorf
And this is exactly what the problem is. Nobody asked for this and very evidently, it works very poorly. The characters look terrible.
Speaking with some experience, I think it could work really well as a starting point, but they just need to put in more work on the fantasy races, go further with the hybrid approach.
Posted By: DumbleDorf Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 14/10/20 02:15 PM
Originally Posted by Labayu
Originally Posted by DumbleDorf
And this is exactly what the problem is. Nobody asked for this and very evidently, it works very poorly. The characters look terrible.
Speaking with some experience, I think it could work really well as a starting point, but they just need to put in more work on the fantasy races, go further with the hybrid approach.


In what other cases has it worked well?
Posted By: Labayu Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 14/10/20 02:24 PM
Originally Posted by CrestOfArtorias
Cool and for what reason?
It's fast and the results are realistic. Realistic is actually the complaint here though, because they look too much like the people who were scanned. So it takes more work to make them look convincingly like fantasy races.

Originally Posted by DumbleDorf
In what other cases has it worked well?
See above, unless you don't think the human models look good. It's common to use parts of specially photographed people to create textures. The scan just creates the models and the textures perfectly mapped all at once.
Posted By: DumbleDorf Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 14/10/20 02:26 PM
Originally Posted by Labayu
Originally Posted by CrestOfArtorias
Cool and for what reason?
It's fast and the results are realistic. Realistic is actually the complaint here though, because they look too much like the people who were scanned. So it takes more work to make them look convincingly like fantasy races.

Originally Posted by DumbleDorf
In what other cases has it worked well?
See above, unless you don't think the human models look good. It's common to use parts of specially photographed people to create textures. The scan just creates the models and the textures perfectly mapped all at once.


The Human models are the worst looking ones in the game.

We shouldn't be expecting 'fast' as a defensible reason from a AAA game.
Posted By: Labayu Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 14/10/20 02:28 PM
Originally Posted by DumbleDorf
The Human models are the worst looking ones in the game.
Well, if you think so, I don't think you're going to like anything they come up with.
Posted By: DumbleDorf Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 14/10/20 02:40 PM
Originally Posted by Labayu
Originally Posted by DumbleDorf
The Human models are the worst looking ones in the game.
Well, if you think so, I don't think you're going to like anything they come up with.


The point of Early Access is to give feedback on the game, and my main criticism is that the character models are universally terrible and need much improvement. Threads such as this one echo that sentiment and many players feel the same way. The actually reasons for why the character models have been done this way are so indefensible to the point that I have now been silenced from talking about them.
Posted By: Labayu Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 14/10/20 02:48 PM
Originally Posted by DumbleDorf
The point of Early Access is to give feedback on the game, and my main criticism is that the character models are universally terrible and need much improvement. Threads such as this one echo that sentiment and many players feel the same way.
Holding the opinion that the models are universally terrible is different than saying the elves don't look enough like elves. I very much agree with the latter. As far as the former, obviously feel free to express your opinion, but I think they are pretty set on using 3D scans as a starting point.
Posted By: Hachina Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 14/10/20 03:11 PM
Originally Posted by Anung un Rama
Responding Hachina:

Making Drizz't more feminine doesn't make him any less human , though.

Anyways, he does has very masculine trait as well , such as big jaw, receding forehead and proeminent forehead, chiseled feature. But the slender chin and hollowed cheeks give him this slender look.[/quote]




- This is exactly what makes them more androgynous. They have feminine and masculine characteristics.

- You are right. Making elfs more androgynous doesn't make them more human, but this is just a detail that is missing.
[/quote]


Yeah, I see where you're going (I understood since the first post). Look, I don't mind either way, If Larian has some time to do a couple of beautiful, slightly androgynous head for both gender, why not, great addition to the game.

Also, some elves have very masculine head (the weaponmaster of the second house of Menzoberranzan is considered to be very masculine looking, like a colossus). But agreed, that's not the majority.
Posted By: Lady Avyna Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 14/10/20 03:55 PM
Originally Posted by Anung un Rama
[quote=Lady Avyna][quote=DumbleDorf][quote=Goldberry][quote=Lady Avyna]


Are you trying to tell me that I am a racist?

Did you get to read what I wrote, and the opinions of other people who agree with me?

I really hope you are not an adult, as your level of understanding apparently belongs to a 12 year old child. So from now on i will deal with you taking into account your immaturity.



I was not talking to you and I never called you a racist. The post was directed to DumbleDorf who keeps bringing up identity politics. SHAME on you for insulting me when I wasn't even talking to you. Shows how immature you are. At the end of the day this is just a video game.
Posted By: golw Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 14/10/20 04:07 PM
Elves don't come from the Feywild; certain elves come from the Feywild.

I think elves look pretty faithful to how they are meant to look in D&D. The only real issue I have currently is that the difference between elves, half-elves, and humans is somewhat nonsensical. Elves are not pre-defined as being diminutive emo boys. There's plenty of lore and artwork for the last 40 years that features elves as being no more or no less masculine or hardy looking than humans. Historically, elves (but not drow) have been taller than humans in the Forgotten Realms, but this appears to have changed somewhat around 4th edition, and they're now considered about the same height.

I do not think they should swap the half-elf models with the elf models, but I do think they need to round out the half-elves a little more. Their ears are too sharp, and their features are a bit too elfy in general. They shouldn't be able to pass at a glance as either human or elf. That's their whole deal. They're outcasts in both societies.
Posted By: Lady Avyna Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 14/10/20 04:12 PM
I'm gonna write here something I noticed in the forums which is players are getting them mixed up because this thread opened up a whole can of worms. The General forum is not for feedback, according to the description, is to talk about our theories, ideas and even fan fiction in relation to the game. If players are trying to get Larian's attention, that should be directed to the Feedback & Suggestion forum or use Twitter to talk to Larian. I think a lot of us are extremely passionate about D&D and want our voices heard but we shouldn't be at each others throat about it either.
Posted By: Lady Avyna Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 14/10/20 04:13 PM
Originally Posted by golw
Elves don't come from the Feywild; certain elves come from the Feywild.

I think elves look pretty faithful to how they are meant to look in D&D. The only real issue I have currently is that the difference between elves, half-elves, and humans is somewhat nonsensical. Elves are not pre-defined as being diminutive emo boys. There's plenty of lore and artwork for the last 40 years that features elves as being no more or no less masculine or hardy looking than humans. Historically, elves (but not drow) have been taller than humans in the Forgotten Realms, but this appears to have changed somewhat around 4th edition, and they're now considered about the same height.

I do not think they should swap the half-elf models with the elf models, but I do think they need to round out the half-elves a little more. Their ears are too sharp, and their features are a bit too elfy in general. They shouldn't be able to pass at a glance as either human or elf. That's their whole deal. They're outcasts in both societies.



+1
Posted By: Sadurian Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 14/10/20 04:18 PM
Originally Posted by Lady Avyna
I was not talking to you and I never called you a racist. The post was directed to DumbleDorf who keeps bringing up identity politics. SHAME on you for insulting me when I wasn't even talking to you. Shows how immature you are. At the end of the day this is just a video game.

I think the OP has flounced so probably won't respond.

However, for the record, I agree with you. I'm uncomfortable in assigning Terran human ethnic characteristics to non-human Faerun races just to meet a diversity target and reflect the world in which we live, but by all means have dwarfs that have negroid facial features or elves that are Asian in appearance. However, make that the effect of the world in which THEY live and not the world in which WE live. If we use Tolkien as the base reference, and most fantasy RPG elves follow his model, then they are all fair skinned and tall. Despite being a South African by birth, Tolkien had no reason to use another ethnic group as his base appearance and culture because he knew what he wanted his elves to look like. That does not mean that another fantasy world creator cannot make elves who are Asian, brown, black or even small and green.

Fantasy races look like they do because that's how we, as consumers and creators of fantasy worlds, visualise them. My 'perfect' model for an elf will look very different to yours and will probably reflect my own culture and upbringing. However, we should both have the option to create a character based on our own vision.
Posted By: Lady Avyna Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 14/10/20 04:21 PM
Originally Posted by Sadurian
Originally Posted by Lady Avyna
I was not talking to you and I never called you a racist. The post was directed to DumbleDorf who keeps bringing up identity politics. SHAME on you for insulting me when I wasn't even talking to you. Shows how immature you are. At the end of the day this is just a video game.

I think the OP has flounced so probably won't respond.

However, for the record, I agree with you. I'm uncomfortable in assigning Terran human ethnic characteristics to non-human Faerun races just to meet a diversity target and reflect the world in which we live, but by all means have dwarfs that have negroid facial features or elves that are Asian in appearance. However, make that the effect of the world in which THEY live and not the world in which WE live. If we use Tolkien as the base reference, and most fantasy RPG elves follow his model, then they are all fair skinned and tall. Despite being a South African by birth, Tolkien had no reason to use another ethnic group as his base appearance and culture because he knew what he wanted his elves to look like. That does not mean that another fantasy world creator cannot make elves who are Asian, brown, black or even small and green.

Fantasy races look like they do because that's how we, as consumers and creators of fantasy worlds, visualise them. My 'perfect' model for an elf will look very different to yours and will probably reflect my own culture and upbringing. However, we should both have the option to create a character based on our own vision.


Exactly.
Posted By: Goldberry Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 14/10/20 04:26 PM
Originally Posted by Sadurian
If we use Tolkien as the base reference, and most fantasy RPG elves follow his model, then they are all fair skinned and tall. Despite being a South African by birth, Tolkien had no reason to use another ethnic group as his base appearance and culture because he knew what he wanted his elves to look like.


People keep bringing Tolkien up, yet Tolkien has nothing to do with Faerun elves. Faerun elves are not tall and fair skinned necessarily. Moon elves are the variant with the lightest skin, ranging from pale to blueish/purpleish tints. Sun elves have golden and bronzed skin that can range from light, to very dark. Wood elves have coppery, tanned, bronzed or green skin, ranging from light, to very dark as well. Eladrin in 5E are more fairy-like, closer to nature spirit than elf.

And yes, there has been a lot of amazing official artwork, and a lot of in depth descriptions about the way they look like. Much of it, has been left out.

Posted By: Sadurian Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 14/10/20 04:27 PM
Faerun elves, and most elves from FRPGs, are based on AD&D elves which have Tolkien as their ancestor. That's why they are not furry, tiny, grotesque or overtly faerie folk, and why they are (usually) magically adept and (usually) good swordsmen and archers. The Tolkien depiction has influenced the depiction of FRPG elves from the beginning.
Posted By: Goldberry Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 14/10/20 04:30 PM
Originally Posted by Sadurian
Faerun elves, and most elves from FRPGs, are based on AD&D elves which have Tolkien as their ancestor.


I do not mean to be rude. I truly do not. But did you take a moment to actually read what I posted before you replied?


Originally Posted by Goldberry

People keep bringing Tolkien up, yet Tolkien has nothing to do with Faerun elves. Faerun elves are not tall and fair skinned necessarily. Moon elves are the variant with the lightest skin, ranging from pale to blueish/purpleish tints. Sun elves have golden and bronzed skin that can range from light, to very dark. Wood elves have coppery, tanned, bronzed or green skin, ranging from light, to very dark as well. Eladrin in 5E are more fairy-like, closer to nature spirit than elf.

And yes, there has been a lot of amazing official artwork, and a lot of in depth descriptions about the way they look like. Much of it, has been left out.



What does this have to do with Tolkien? Did Tolkien have blue or green elves? I think I missed that. If you wish to argue about this, and about how DND elves are 'Tolkien-like', then I recommend you to stop and open player handbooks. You might be very surprised.

EDIT: I am sorry if I come off as hostile. I truly do not mean it to seem that way. But the Tolkien argument is simply not going to fly, and people keep bringing it up. This is not Dungeons and Tolkien. Yes, Tolkien set the world base that inspired a lot of fantasy settings. Yes, Dungeons and Dragons took quite a lot of that. That much is true. But the moment they took something, they twisted it, they changed it, and they edited it; it is simply no longer the same. There are plenty of differences between Tolkien Elves and Faerun Elves explained, thoroughly, IN DEPTH, in plenty of DND manuals. They do not look the same. They do not act the same. They are simply not the same.
Posted By: Sadurian Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 14/10/20 04:47 PM
You missed what I said (ironically). Practically all FRPG elves have Tolkien as their ancestor. He established a 'look' which was human-sized or taller, slender and with pointed ears, being more advanced and long-lived than most of the other races.

Faerun elves are certainly a variation on this. They are not, for example, small and mischievous like English folklore traditionally portrays them, or sinister creatures of shadow as shown in such tales as Beowulf. Nor are they the álfar of Norse mythology, or spirit creatures like in German folklore. They are not Celtic nature spirits or brownies, pucks or any of the other variants of 'elf' that history and folklore portrays. They are not even the odd creatures of Harry Potter.

Tolkien took elements of elves from various folklore sources (mainly Scandanavian) and established how 'his' elves looked, behaved and their place in Middle Earth and the wider world. Tolkien's influence on AD&D is unmistakable and deeply-ingrained; the ranger class, halflings (and halflings being good burglars), ents, balrogs, elves, the list goes on. This was established back in the 1970s, and subsequent AD&D/D&D gameworlds and editions have built upon those origins.

Yes, Faerun elves have Tolkien elves as their ancestors.
Posted By: Goldberry Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 14/10/20 04:52 PM
Originally Posted by Sadurian
You missed what I said (ironically). Practically all FRPG elves have Tolkien as their ancestor. He established a 'look' which was human-sized or taller, slender and with pointed ears, being more advanced and long-lived than most of the other races.

Faerun elves are certainly a variation on this. They are not, for example, small and mischievous like English folklore traditionally portrays them, or sinister creatures of shadow as shown in such tales as Beowulf. Nor are they the álfar of Norse mythology, or spirit creatures like in German folklore. They are not Celtic nature spirits or brownies, pucks or any of the other variants of 'elf' that history and folklore portrays. They are not even the odd creatures of Harry Potter.

Tolkien took elements of elves from various folklore sources (mainly Scandanavian) and established how 'his' elves looked, behaved and their place in Middle Earth and the wider world. Tolkien's influence on AD&D is unmistakable and deeply-ingrained; the ranger class, halflings (and halflings being good burglars), ents, balrogs, elves, the list goes on. This was established back in the 1970s, and subsequent AD&D/D&D gameworlds and editions have built upon those origins.

Yes, Faerun elves have Tolkien elves as their ancestors.


I did not miss what you said. To say that Tolkien did influence DND, is very much true. I love Tolkien as much as everyone else, but that's where our agreement ends, for Tolkien has absolutely nothing to do with the topic of this thread, nor when it comes to discuss the way things are in Faerun. Inspired or not; Faerun and Middle Earth are simply not connected.
Posted By: Lady Avyna Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 14/10/20 04:55 PM
Originally Posted by Sadurian
You missed what I said (ironically). Practically all FRPG elves have Tolkien as their ancestor. He established a 'look' which was human-sized or taller, slender and with pointed ears, being more advanced and long-lived than most of the other races.

Faerun elves are certainly a variation on this. They are not, for example, small and mischievous like English folklore traditionally portrays them, or sinister creatures of shadow as shown in such tales as Beowulf. Nor are they the álfar of Norse mythology, or spirit creatures like in German folklore. They are not Celtic nature spirits or brownies, pucks or any of the other variants of 'elf' that history and folklore portrays. They are not even the odd creatures of Harry Potter.

Tolkien took elements of elves from various folklore sources (mainly Scandanavian) and established how 'his' elves looked, behaved and their place in Middle Earth and the wider world. Tolkien's influence on AD&D is unmistakable and deeply-ingrained; the ranger class, halflings (and halflings being good burglars), ents, balrogs, elves, the list goes on. This was established back in the 1970s, and subsequent AD&D/D&D gameworlds and editions have built upon those origins.

Yes, Faerun elves have Tolkien elves as their ancestors.


Exactly I completely agree with you. I think the problem is that some DnD fans are too involved with the franchise where they want to separate the Tolkien influence from DnD's original work. Unfortunately I keep finding elves that remind me of Tolkien's elves. Here's an image of a Ranger Guard Elf from Pinterest that someone drew based on the current DnD 5E handbook.

[img]https://br.pinterest.com/pin/735283076636971553/[/img]
Posted By: Sadurian Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 14/10/20 05:01 PM
Originally Posted by Lady Avyna
Unfortunately I keep finding elves that remind me of Tolkien's elves. Here's an image of a Ranger Guard Elf from Pinterest that someone drew based on the current DnD 5E handbook.

[img]https://br.pinterest.com/pin/735283076636971553/[/img]

smile
Not Legolas, then... You can take the elf out of Tolkien, but it's harder to take Tolkien out of the elf.
Posted By: Argyle Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 14/10/20 05:03 PM
Until reading Tolkein, my view of elves was entirely defined by the Elves and the Shoemaker. Elves were very small, very crafty, and somewhat helpful if you were nice to them. This belief was later enforced by descriptions of Santa Claus' workshop elves up at the North Pole.

I had a hard time accepting the Tolkein version of elves, which are vastly superior to humans in most respects. Tolkein's elves were tragic creatures who engaged in a futile struggle against the passage of time ... and based on the movies, I believe they were also very good at cobbling shoes.
Posted By: Sadurian Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 14/10/20 05:07 PM
Originally Posted by Argyle
I had a hard time accepting the Tolkein version of elves, which are vastly superior to humans in most respects. Tolkein's elves were tragic creatures who engaged in a futile struggle against the passage of time ... and based on the movies, I believe they were also very good at cobbling shoes.

Well, they talked cobblers, which is perhaps not the same thing.

I struggled to take Hugo Weaving (Elrond) seriously in the film, trying not see him as Anthony "Tick" Belrose in Priscilla, Queen of the Desert. I was expecting him to burst into a drag act version of Abba at any moment.
Posted By: DumbleDorf Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 14/10/20 06:37 PM
Originally Posted by Labayu
Originally Posted by DumbleDorf
The point of Early Access is to give feedback on the game, and my main criticism is that the character models are universally terrible and need much improvement. Threads such as this one echo that sentiment and many players feel the same way.
Holding the opinion that the models are universally terrible is different than saying the elves don't look enough like elves. I very much agree with the latter. As far as the former, obviously feel free to express your opinion, but I think they are pretty set on using 3D scans as a starting point.



Yes when I made a thread to discuss the former, it was closed and I was told to talk about it in this one.
Posted By: blindhamster Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 14/10/20 07:00 PM
the models aren't terrible, they're very well good.

They just don't look like elves
Posted By: Veles Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 14/10/20 08:29 PM
Don't touch elves they are refined and pretty as supposed to be. And give them asian or black features is unapropriate and ruin the world atmosphere.
Posted By: BlueFlames Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 14/10/20 09:03 PM
I don't think the models are awful. They're very nice if you ask me. A bit basic and I do think a bit of customization would help. Just so you can make them a bit more unique (so that every one can make the elf they want). But it might be a work in process it's EA after all.

But what do elves look like? I mean there really is not a universal guide for it. As long as they're not like the skyrim elves I will be happy.
This is what you said after the comments between Golberry and me. We can see very well what you were implying:
Originally Posted by Lady Avyna
Originally Posted by DumbleDorf
Originally Posted by Goldberry
Originally Posted by Lady Avyna
I have seen this image before but like I mentioned, if you look closely, those elves are still human-like. The difference are the pointy ears, slight eye shape and size, and their face is a bit more angular but at the end of the day, they are still human-like. The OP mention they didn't like that the elves look human with pointy ears. Shadowheart is a half elf so it makes sense for her to look more human. Astarion is a full elf but he's a vampire, maybe they could of made him look more different but the problem is that he a romanceable companion and so they also want to make him look appealing.


I'm pretty sure nobody wants them to look monstruous or ugly, just less relatable while still beautiful and that touch of strangeness to them that makes them seem not caucasic, nor african, nor asian, nor anything but elves.


Nobody except Larian who have decided entirely themselves to do as such without any consideration to how it would actually affect any group of people.


I'm gonna answer you here because it seems like your post was locked where people can't respond. To the issue of fantasy races having non-white facial features, I don't see what the problem is as long as they act like their fantasy race. For example, if you have an Orc that may have Asian or black facial features but still behaves like an orc, what is the problem with that? I also just opened up the game and went through every race and found that for females, only the Humans and Tiefllings (who have human origins) have Asian and black facial features, which is fine. Now, when it comes to the males, they seem to have mixed it up and gave Asian and black features to full Elves and Drow with the Humans only having white and black features and no Asian. They should have done for the males what they did for the females for only Humans and Tieflings, who are of human origin. To me personally, it is not game breaking to have a humanoid being resemble real world minorities and it is NOT an immersion killer. If that is the problem for some then that might make that person seem like a racist. As I mentioned to you before in the other thread, there are now Asian and black Vulcans but they still behave as Vulcans. It doesn't ruin Star Trek. So, the same can go for Dungeons and Dragons, I don't think having minorities depicted in humanoid creatures is a big deal as long as they remain to to their fantasy race's culture and personality.



And here is my comment:
Originally Posted by Anung un Rama
Originally Posted by Goldberry
I think there should be less of an argument of making all elves look one way or another and just give both options.

Some traditional looking heads for those of us who prefer an alienness to our elves, and the human like version for those who want to see themselves represented.

I don't agree with it. I dont think a fantasy race needs to represent anything other than themselves, and before you mention, I am mixed race myself.

Still. It doesn't have to be one way or the other. It can be both and everyone is happy.


I agree, but I have to admit that it breaks my immersion a bit, since they will use these models for npc's in the game.



I didn't want to come back here, but it's absurd that you think you have the right to say that kind of thing without any basis, and act like I'm the one who started the insults.

I didn't attack anyone because of their opinions, but you and others try to make it look like I'm a racist. That's disgusting. I challenge you to find a comment that I made that has racist implications ... Well, there are none and you know it.

So, if you have a little decency, you will apologize.
Posted By: Lady Avyna Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 14/10/20 09:38 PM
Quote



I didn't want to come back here, but it's absurd that you think you have the right to say that kind of thing without any basis, and act like I'm the one who started the insults.

I didn't attack anyone because of their opinions, but you and others try to make it look like I'm a racist. That's disgusting. I challenge you to find a comment that I made that has racist implications ... Well, there are none and you know it.

So, if you have a little decency, you will apologize.


That comment that I wrote about someone being a racist was NOT directed to YOU!!! There is NO REASON for you attack me. I was NOT talking to you. The problem is you got tagged because DumbleDorf wrote on your thread. AGAIN, my comment was NOT directed to YOU but to DUMBLEDOF. He was responding to Goldenberry who was responding to ME. This starting quote that I said, should tell you I wasn't talking to you. "I'm gonna answer you here because it seems like your post was locked where people can't respond." That proves I was talking to Dumbledorf who has another thread that was blocked by the administrator because he was bringing up racial politics and I told him to be careful not to sound like a racist. NOTHING TO DO WITH YOU!!!

DO YOU UNDERSTAND NOW? I would be nice if you apologize to me for calling me a child and immature when I was NOT talking to YOU.
Posted By: Lady Avyna Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 14/10/20 09:49 PM
This thread is supposed to be about discussing elves not looking otherworldly but you decided to bring real world ethnicities into the conversation and that opened up a whole can of worms. To which the thread became about racial politics. The administrator has come in twice to tell us to stop talking about that but DumbleDorf was the one that insisted and also Goldberry who both have made separate forum threads discussing the topic. That's the problem. You opened a whole can of worms when you started to talk about Asian and Black people. What I'm trying to make you understand is that racial politics is a very touchy subject right now. Especially in the United States. So when I tell someone to be careful not to sound like a racist that is NOT me calling them a racist. Just to be careful how people mention ethnic races. That is all. I'll be the bigger person and say that I AM SORRY if you misunderstood what I was saying but again I was not directing that post to you.
Posted By: Umbra Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 14/10/20 10:07 PM
Non-human races should look non-human, because they are non-human.

Extra human presets are are good idea I think, because we often do want to look like ourselves (just better, because I don't play games to look like a middle aged gamer with disabilities, you know? This is my fantasy - my escape from reality).

Extra half- or part- human presets too, then we can look like ourselves but just a bit "other".

But, for those of us who just want to roleplay the other, then let the other be an option. it's fantasy. We're here because we like fantasy. Let us be fantastic!

Now-a-days, in a modern games, there's no reason not to have both. I love the effort Larian have put into the motion capture, and facial expressions, but the fantasy aspect is important too, and perhaps a little neglected.
Posted By: Goldberry Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 14/10/20 10:10 PM
Originally Posted by Lady Avyna
The administrator has come in twice to tell us to stop talking about that but DumbleDorf was the one that insisted and also Goldberry who both have made separate forum threads discussing the topic.


I received no warning of anything, and my thread was first. And I do not know DumbleDorf from anywhere, so I am clear of whatever you are trying to implicate.

This whole thread is a trainwreck.

Originally Posted by Umbra
Non-human races should look non-human, because they are non-human.

Extra human presets are are good idea I think, because we often do want to look like ourselves (just better, because I don't play games to look like a middle aged gamer with disabilities, you know? This is my fantasy - my escape from reality).

Extra half- or part- human presets too, then we can look like ourselves but just a bit "other".

But, for those of us who just want to roleplay the other, then let the other be an option. it's fantasy. We're here because we like fantasy. Let us be fantastic!

Now-a-days, in a modern games, there's no reason not to have both. I love the effort Larian have put into the motion capture, and facial expressions, but the fantasy aspect is important too, and perhaps a little neglected.


Thank you, someone is finally on topic.
Posted By: vometia Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 14/10/20 10:14 PM
A quiet reminder for everyone to step back, take a breather and let cool heads prevail, please. It's an interesting discussion, I'm sure we don't need any shouting. Plus I have a headache.
Posted By: Lady Avyna Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 14/10/20 10:16 PM
Originally Posted by Goldberry
Originally Posted by Lady Avyna
The administrator has come in twice to tell us to stop talking about that but DumbleDorf was the one that insisted and also Goldberry who both have made separate forum threads discussing the topic.


I received no warning of anything, and my thread was first. And I do not know DumbleDorf from anywhere, so I am clear of whatever you are trying to implicate.

This whole thread is a trainwreck.

Originally Posted by Umbra
Non-human races should look non-human, because they are non-human.

Extra human presets are are good idea I think, because we often do want to look like ourselves (just better, because I don't play games to look like a middle aged gamer with disabilities, you know? This is my fantasy - my escape from reality).

Extra half- or part- human presets too, then we can look like ourselves but just a bit "other".

But, for those of us who just want to roleplay the other, then let the other be an option. it's fantasy. We're here because we like fantasy. Let us be fantastic!

Now-a-days, in a modern games, there's no reason not to have both. I love the effort Larian have put into the motion capture, and facial expressions, but the fantasy aspect is important too, and perhaps a little neglected.


Thank you, someone is finally on topic.


The only reason I mentioned you, is from my observation that you, the OP and DumbleDorf have been very passionate about not having ethnic minorities like Asian or black represented in fantasy characters. If I have mistaken you for someone else, then I apologize. I agree this thread is a trainwreck. I want to set the record straight that I am not against elves looking like elves just that I don't see a problem with them having somewhat of a real world ethnic minority represented, like a subtle similarity. Since DnD is all about storytelling and how you, the player, sees the world and characters.
Posted By: Goldberry Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 14/10/20 10:20 PM
Originally Posted by Lady Avyna

The only reason I mentioned you, is from my observation that you, the OP and DumbleDorf have been very passionate about not having ethnic minorities like Asian or black represented in fantasy characters. If I have mistaken you for someone else, then I apologize. I agree this thread is a trainwreck. I want to set the record straight that I am not against elves looking like elves just that I don't see a problem with them having somewhat of a real world ethnic minority representing. Since DnD is all about storytelling and how you, the player, sees the world and characters.


You are mistaken, at least when it concerns me, I cannot speak for anyone else. I have been an advocate to have both options so that everyone is happy. I have stated so multiple times.

Originally Posted by Goldberry
I think there should be less of an argument of making all elves look one way or another and just give both options.

Some traditional looking heads for those of us who prefer an alienness to our elves, and the human like version for those who want to see themselves represented.

I don't agree with it. I dont think a fantasy race needs to represent anything other than themselves, and before you mention, I am mixed race myself.

Still. It doesn't have to be one way or the other. It can be both and everyone is happy.


Apology accepted though.




Posted By: Sechrima Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 14/10/20 10:23 PM
I'm not going to bother reading the whole thread, especially as it seems to involve a lot of drama.

I will just say on the topic that I agree that the elves currently look just plain awful. They look more robust than the Half-Elves, which is stupid and counter-intuitive. They don't have the traditional D&D elven appearance, but look much too human. This needs to be rectified ASAP.

The standard colour palette should also support the traditional 'ethnicities' that are known of in the lore, such as Sun Elves, Moon Elves, etc. One minor thing I'd like is a copper hair colour for High Elves of Sun Elven heritage.
Posted By: Hachina Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 14/10/20 11:02 PM
Originally Posted by Lady Avyna
Quote



I didn't want to come back here, but it's absurd that you think you have the right to say that kind of thing without any basis, and act like I'm the one who started the insults.

I didn't attack anyone because of their opinions, but you and others try to make it look like I'm a racist. That's disgusting. I challenge you to find a comment that I made that has racist implications ... Well, there are none and you know it.

So, if you have a little decency, you will apologize.


That comment that I wrote about someone being a racist was NOT directed to YOU!!! There is NO REASON for you attack me. I was NOT talking to you. The problem is you got tagged because DumbleDorf wrote on your thread. AGAIN, my comment was NOT directed to YOU but to DUMBLEDOF. He was responding to Goldenberry who was responding to ME. This starting quote that I said, should tell you I wasn't talking to you. "I'm gonna answer you here because it seems like your post was locked where people can't respond." That proves I was talking to Dumbledorf who has another thread that was blocked by the administrator because he was bringing up racial politics and I told him to be careful not to sound like a racist. NOTHING TO DO WITH YOU!!!

DO YOU UNDERSTAND NOW? I would be nice if you apologize to me for calling me a child and immature when I was NOT talking to YOU.


I don't really want to argue but I feel like a third party may be needed here. Anung whole point is that he wants elves to look more stylized, lean, chiseled, basically, the classic elf looking. And the classic elf looking doesn't ressemble minority or anything, he looks like his own race. Its basically hight cheekbone, Hollow cheek, slanted eyes, and so on , everyone know what I mean. But in your comment, you called anyone that didn't want elves to look like a real world minority a ''racist'' and that include people who want otherwordly , androgynous, slender elves (because otherworldy elves don't look like world minority. nor like world majority, actually; They just look different). Thus,I understand that you didn't mean that, but the way your comment is put can be misleading.
Posted By: Lady Avyna Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 14/10/20 11:12 PM
Originally Posted by Hachina
Originally Posted by Lady Avyna
Quote



I didn't want to come back here, but it's absurd that you think you have the right to say that kind of thing without any basis, and act like I'm the one who started the insults.

I didn't attack anyone because of their opinions, but you and others try to make it look like I'm a racist. That's disgusting. I challenge you to find a comment that I made that has racist implications ... Well, there are none and you know it.

So, if you have a little decency, you will apologize.


That comment that I wrote about someone being a racist was NOT directed to YOU!!! There is NO REASON for you attack me. I was NOT talking to you. The problem is you got tagged because DumbleDorf wrote on your thread. AGAIN, my comment was NOT directed to YOU but to DUMBLEDOF. He was responding to Goldenberry who was responding to ME. This starting quote that I said, should tell you I wasn't talking to you. "I'm gonna answer you here because it seems like your post was locked where people can't respond." That proves I was talking to Dumbledorf who has another thread that was blocked by the administrator because he was bringing up racial politics and I told him to be careful not to sound like a racist. NOTHING TO DO WITH YOU!!!

DO YOU UNDERSTAND NOW? I would be nice if you apologize to me for calling me a child and immature when I was NOT talking to YOU.


I don't really want to argue but I feel like a third party may be needed here. Anung whole point is that he wants elves to look more stylized, lean, chiseled, basically, the classic elf looking. And the classic elf looking doesn't ressemble minority or anything, he looks like his own race. Its basically hight cheekbone, Hollow cheek, slanted eyes, and so on , everyone know what I mean. But in your comment, you called anyone that didn't want elves to look like a real world minority a ''racist'' and that include people who want otherwordly , androgynous, slender elves (because otherworldy elves don't look like world minority. nor like world majority, actually; They just look different). Thus,I understand that you didn't mean that, but the way your comment is put can be misleading.


Like I mention in another response to someone else, I don't have a problem with elves looking like traditional elves. The issue some of us have comes mostly from DumbleDorf who brought in his dislike of identity politics and is blaming Larian for that. I believe there were also others, I do don't remember who, that also stated they don't want faces to represent ethnic minorities. I am not directly calling anyone a racist. All I'm saying is to be careful not to "seem" like a racist when talking about identity politics as that is a very sensitive subject for some people.
Originally Posted by Lady Avyna
Originally Posted by Goldberry
Originally Posted by Lady Avyna
The administrator has come in twice to tell us to stop talking about that but DumbleDorf was the one that insisted and also Goldberry who both have made separate forum threads discussing the topic.


I received no warning of anything, and my thread was first. And I do not know DumbleDorf from anywhere, so I am clear of whatever you are trying to implicate.

This whole thread is a trainwreck.

Originally Posted by Umbra
Non-human races should look non-human, because they are non-human.

Extra human presets are are good idea I think, because we often do want to look like ourselves (just better, because I don't play games to look like a middle aged gamer with disabilities, you know? This is my fantasy - my escape from reality).

Extra half- or part- human presets too, then we can look like ourselves but just a bit "other".

But, for those of us who just want to roleplay the other, then let the other be an option. it's fantasy. We're here because we like fantasy. Let us be fantastic!

Now-a-days, in a modern games, there's no reason not to have both. I love the effort Larian have put into the motion capture, and facial expressions, but the fantasy aspect is important too, and perhaps a little neglected.


Thank you, someone is finally on topic.


The only reason I mentioned you, is from my observation that you, the OP and DumbleDorf have been very passionate about not having ethnic minorities like Asian or black represented in fantasy characters. If I have mistaken you for someone else, then I apologize. I agree this thread is a trainwreck. I want to set the record straight that I am not against elves looking like elves just that I don't see a problem with them having somewhat of a real world ethnic minority represented, like a subtle similarity. Since DnD is all about storytelling and how you, the player, sees the world and characters.



I am willing to believe that you were not talking about me so we can get back on the topic. So I'm sorry for what I said about you. I thought you were implying that I was a racist because I said that elves with human features break my immersion.

I do want minorities represented in the game. What I said is that i prefer that elves and other non-human races to have their own characteristics, which have already been presented in D&D books. Honestly, I don't mind if Larian keeps the current faces, but at least modify them to look less human and more like those of the elves, and by that I mean sharp and angular features, a diamond-shaped face, narrow in the line of eyes and chin, but with high cheekbones.

I really think that the options for human faces should present all ethnic groups, and although I have no problem if the other races also have these options, they should not overlap the original characteristics of each race.

Originally Posted by Hachina
Originally Posted by Lady Avyna
Quote



I didn't want to come back here, but it's absurd that you think you have the right to say that kind of thing without any basis, and act like I'm the one who started the insults.

I didn't attack anyone because of their opinions, but you and others try to make it look like I'm a racist. That's disgusting. I challenge you to find a comment that I made that has racist implications ... Well, there are none and you know it.

So, if you have a little decency, you will apologize.


That comment that I wrote about someone being a racist was NOT directed to YOU!!! There is NO REASON for you attack me. I was NOT talking to you. The problem is you got tagged because DumbleDorf wrote on your thread. AGAIN, my comment was NOT directed to YOU but to DUMBLEDOF. He was responding to Goldenberry who was responding to ME. This starting quote that I said, should tell you I wasn't talking to you. "I'm gonna answer you here because it seems like your post was locked where people can't respond." That proves I was talking to Dumbledorf who has another thread that was blocked by the administrator because he was bringing up racial politics and I told him to be careful not to sound like a racist. NOTHING TO DO WITH YOU!!!

DO YOU UNDERSTAND NOW? I would be nice if you apologize to me for calling me a child and immature when I was NOT talking to YOU.


I don't really want to argue but I feel like a third party may be needed here. Anung whole point is that he wants elves to look more stylized, lean, chiseled, basically, the classic elf looking. And the classic elf looking doesn't ressemble minority or anything, he looks like his own race. Its basically hight cheekbone, Hollow cheek, slanted eyes, and so on , everyone know what I mean. But in your comment, you called anyone that didn't want elves to look like a real world minority a ''racist'' and that include people who want otherwordly , androgynous, slender elves (because otherworldy elves don't look like world minority. nor like world majority, actually; They just look different). Thus,I understand that you didn't mean that, but the way your comment is put can be misleading.


Thank you! You said it perfectly.
Posted By: Citizn Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 15/10/20 02:38 AM
It's obvious that the elves look like humans. Here's my proof.. The first thing I tried to create as a character was my ideal male form and it didn't exist under the Human face options. There are two elf male faces that look native to northern Europe, while the Human has two faces that look Anglo. There I was representing myself.. And then I found the Githyanki and said hell yeah! I want to be weird!
@Larian I ask kindly, please let us be weird. Thank you =)

Elves are Elves, they are not a "race" from our universe, they do not represent any "race" in our universe either, they are fey-born creatures of another plane. Thats how they should look like, alien and different they are not a template to map one of the ethnicities of our world to. They aren't humans with pointy ears.

They are an alien race.

Now Half-Elves, thats a different story.
Posted By: Veles Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 15/10/20 09:09 AM
I like elves in their current state and tottaly fine with their apperance. I don't wanna play freaks. Please,devs, don't listen these fools.
So... yeah elves come from the Feywild yada yada yada... none of that explains why elves can't have features which set them apart ethnically. The Feywild is a "wild" mirror of the Prime Material Plane is it not? So the elves/eladrin/fey whatever that come from the equator of that reflection (the tropics) are going to look different than the elves who come from the far north. Just as humans do who have developed in different parts of the world. This is why "Asian" or "African" looking elves are just as valid as any other sort of elf. Same goes for dwarves, halflings, etc.

I agree - give them more delicate, angular features. Make them look less human - but I still guarantee an elf from the desert, who's people have lived their for millennia, will look different than elves from a temperate forest.

There's really no argument in my mind against the existence of elves with features other than caucasian.

Posted By: Sechrima Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 15/10/20 09:47 AM
Originally Posted by TrollishMcTroll
So... yeah elves come from the Feywild yada yada yada... none of that explains why elves can't have features which set them apart ethnically. The Feywild is a "wild" mirror of the Prime Material Plane is it not? So the elves/eladrin/fey whatever that come from the equator of that reflection (the tropics) are going to look different than the elves who come from the far north. Just as humans do who have developed in different parts of the world. This is why "Asian" or "African" looking elves are just as valid as any other sort of elf. Same goes for dwarves, halflings, etc.

I agree - give them more delicate, angular features. Make them look less human - but I still guarantee an elf from the desert, who's people have lived their for millennia, will look different than elves from a temperate forest.

There's really no argument in my mind against the existence of elves with features other than caucasian.


No one's arguing to make them Caucasian-looking (or if they are, they're missing the point). The argument is that elves in D&D are not humans and do not resemble any human races. They are unique and they have their own unique races. Sun Elf, Moon Elf, Drow, etc. Those are the elven races, and they are not comparable to human races in characteristics. This should be represented faithfully in the game.
Originally Posted by Sechrima
Originally Posted by TrollishMcTroll
So... yeah elves come from the Feywild yada yada yada... none of that explains why elves can't have features which set them apart ethnically. The Feywild is a "wild" mirror of the Prime Material Plane is it not? So the elves/eladrin/fey whatever that come from the equator of that reflection (the tropics) are going to look different than the elves who come from the far north. Just as humans do who have developed in different parts of the world. This is why "Asian" or "African" looking elves are just as valid as any other sort of elf. Same goes for dwarves, halflings, etc.

I agree - give them more delicate, angular features. Make them look less human - but I still guarantee an elf from the desert, who's people have lived their for millennia, will look different than elves from a temperate forest.

There's really no argument in my mind against the existence of elves with features other than caucasian.


No one's arguing to make them Caucasian-looking (or if they are, they're missing the point). The argument is that elves in D&D are not humans and do not resemble any human races. They are unique and they have their own unique races. Sun Elf, Moon Elf, Drow, etc. Those are the elven races, and they are not comparable to human races in characteristics. This should be represented faithfully in the game.


Very much, the ones that resemble their human lineage are Half-Elves, no issue with adding ethnic influences there because it fits.
Posted By: blindhamster Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 15/10/20 10:38 AM
Originally Posted by TrollishMcTroll
So... yeah elves come from the Feywild yada yada yada... none of that explains why elves can't have features which set them apart ethnically. The Feywild is a "wild" mirror of the Prime Material Plane is it not? So the elves/eladrin/fey whatever that come from the equator of that reflection (the tropics) are going to look different than the elves who come from the far north. Just as humans do who have developed in different parts of the world. This is why "Asian" or "African" looking elves are just as valid as any other sort of elf. Same goes for dwarves, halflings, etc.

I agree - give them more delicate, angular features. Make them look less human - but I still guarantee an elf from the desert, who's people have lived their for millennia, will look different than elves from a temperate forest.

There's really no argument in my mind against the existence of elves with features other than caucasian.



as people above have said, Elves DO have their own ethnic divergences, thats the whole point to subraces. In Forgotten realms there are quite a few
High Elves
- Sun Elves: Regal looking, typically bronzed skin, they have hair colours of brown/red/copper/gold typically and their eyes are usually black, gold or silver
- Moon Elves: Pale skin, often with a blue or purple hue, hair colours covering all human ones plus silver and blue, their eyes are usually blue or green with gold flecks
- Star Elves: pale skin with gold, silver or red hair and tend to be particularly slender, their eyes are similar to moon elves

Wood Elves
- Copper Elves: tend to be broader and sturdier, tan or bronzed skin, copper, brown, black or golden blond hair with eyes of green, hazel or brown. Wood elves are technically one of the only races of elves native to Faerun, the reason for this is they come from intermingling of Wild Elves with other elves over many generations.
- Wild/Green Elves: tend toward darker skin tones from tanned to dark brown, usually have darker hair colour and eyes similar to copper elves.

Eladrin : Eladrin are Elves native to the feywild still, their appearance literally changes with the seasons, they look a lot like Sun Elves in terms of their regal appearance, but their hair, skin and eye colours change with the passing of each season, as does their personality.

Drow
- Lolthian Drow: Shorter than surface elves, they're graceful and regal looking, their skin is almost always shades of obsidian, purple, grey. brown or blue undertones differentiate them though, their eyes are almost always red, with violet and amber being rare exceptions, their hair is always white or off white. Their colouring is part of a curse put upon them by Corellon for their actions around the early crown wars.
- Dark Elves (Seldarine drow in this game): These drow have had Corellons curse lifted due to actions shortly before the spellplague. They have reverted to their original colourations (NOT how they're shown in the game) and look a lot like Wild/Green Elves for colouration.

Lythari: Esentially a unique non-evil breed of Elven werewolf that doesn't have a hybrid form, they're usually depicted as pale with grey or white hair both in elf and wolf form. But they're usually found in Wood Elf lands, so in theory make more sense to match their colouring to some extent.

Avariel: Winged Elves, their features are even more delicate than other elves, with eyes that are larger than most too, their eyes tend to be bright blues, greens or even purple, their skin colour isn't really described anywhere but the only art of them shown has been pale/tanned. Their hair and wings tend to be black/white/silver. Though the most well known Avariel, Aerie from BG2 has blond hair. Avariel are noted as being shorter than High or Wood elves in the same way that drow are.

Aquatic Elves: their build is probably the most sturdy of all the elves and tend to be tall. Their skin tends toward blues and greens, but sometimes browns or even silvers, their hair is usually blacks, greens, blues, browns or even red. Their eyes are usually black, blue, white, green or very rarely silver.


Regardless of the kind, they all have the angular features, almond eyes and pointed ears. None of them can grow facial hair or have body hair.

If Larian really want to include human ethnicities in the different elves, they should at least try and correlate the human ethnicities to those subraces and go from there. Right now the Elves are just /wrong/ and it's crazy because there are EXCELLENT resources available for multiple editions of D&D describing all the above.

Most notably for D&D 5e, Sword Coast Adventurers Guide which should honestly be a default inclusion for this game anyway, considering the setting.
Originally Posted by blindhamster
Originally Posted by TrollishMcTroll
So... yeah elves come from the Feywild yada yada yada... none of that explains why elves can't have features which set them apart ethnically. The Feywild is a "wild" mirror of the Prime Material Plane is it not? So the elves/eladrin/fey whatever that come from the equator of that reflection (the tropics) are going to look different than the elves who come from the far north. Just as humans do who have developed in different parts of the world. This is why "Asian" or "African" looking elves are just as valid as any other sort of elf. Same goes for dwarves, halflings, etc.

I agree - give them more delicate, angular features. Make them look less human - but I still guarantee an elf from the desert, who's people have lived their for millennia, will look different than elves from a temperate forest.

There's really no argument in my mind against the existence of elves with features other than caucasian.



as people above have said, Elves DO have their own ethnic divergences, thats the whole point to subraces. In Forgotten realms there are quite a few
High Elves
- Sun Elves: Regal looking, typically bronzed skin, they have hair colours of brown/red/copper/gold typically and their eyes are usually black, gold or silver
- Moon Elves: Pale skin, often with a blue or purple hue, hair colours covering all human ones plus silver and blue, their eyes are usually blue or green with gold flecks
- Star Elves: pale skin with gold, silver or red hair and tend to be particularly slender, their eyes are similar to moon elves

Wood Elves
- Copper Elves: tend to be broader and sturdier, tan or bronzed skin, copper, brown, black or golden blond hair with eyes of green, hazel or brown. Wood elves are technically one of the only races of elves native to Faerun, the reason for this is they come from intermingling of Wild Elves with other elves over many generations.
- Wild/Green Elves: tend toward darker skin tones from tanned to dark brown, usually have darker hair colour and eyes similar to copper elves.

Eladrin : Eladrin are Elves native to the feywild still, their appearance literally changes with the seasons, they look a lot like Sun Elves in terms of their regal appearance, but their hair, skin and eye colours change with the passing of each season, as does their personality.

Drow
- Lolthian Drow: Shorter than surface elves, they're graceful and regal looking, their skin is almost always shades of obsidian, purple, grey. brown or blue undertones differentiate them though, their eyes are almost always red, with violet and amber being rare exceptions, their hair is always white or off white. Their colouring is part of a curse put upon them by Corellon for their actions around the early crown wars.
- Dark Elves (Seldarine drow in this game): These drow have had Corellons curse lifted due to actions shortly before the spellplague. They have reverted to their original colourations (NOT how they're shown in the game) and look a lot like Wild/Green Elves for colouration.

Lythari: Esentially a unique non-evil breed of Elven werewolf that doesn't have a hybrid form, they're usually depicted as pale with grey or white hair both in elf and wolf form. But they're usually found in Wood Elf lands, so in theory make more sense to match their colouring to some extent.

Avariel: Winged Elves, their features are even more delicate than other elves, with eyes that are larger than most too, their eyes tend to be bright blues, greens or even purple, their skin colour isn't really described anywhere but the only art of them shown has been pale/tanned. Their hair and wings tend to be black/white/silver. Though the most well known Avariel, Aerie from BG2 has blond hair. Avariel are noted as being shorter than High or Wood elves in the same way that drow are.

Aquatic Elves: their build is probably the most sturdy of all the elves and tend to be tall. Their skin tends toward blues and greens, but sometimes browns or even silvers, their hair is usually blacks, greens, blues, browns or even red. Their eyes are usually black, blue, white, green or very rarely silver.


Regardless of the kind, they all have the angular features, almond eyes and pointed ears. None of them can grow facial hair or have body hair.

If Larian really want to include human ethnicities in the different elves, they should at least try and correlate the human ethnicities to those subraces and go from there. Right now the Elves are just /wrong/ and it's crazy because there are EXCELLENT resources available for multiple editions of D&D describing all the above.

Most notably for D&D 5e, Sword Coast Adventurers Guide which should honestly be a default inclusion for this game anyway, considering the setting.


+1
Posted By: TheAscendent Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 15/10/20 01:15 PM
So does Astarion look enough like an Elf?
Originally Posted by Veles
I like elves in their current state and tottaly fine with their apperance. I don't wanna play freaks. Please,devs, don't listen these fools.



Are you able to give your opinion without offending anyone?
Posted By: Sadurian Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 15/10/20 01:25 PM
Originally Posted by Veles
I like elves in their current state and tottaly fine with their apperance. I don't wanna play freaks. Please,devs, don't listen these fools.

I don't want to play elves, full stop. They are over-rated, narcissistic and so up their own digestive systems that they can watch their stomachs emptying. Odd bat-eared anorexics that they are.

Bah. Remove elves altogether and fill the space with gnomes and more dwarves. You know it makes sense.
Posted By: DumbleDorf Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 15/10/20 01:26 PM
I don't know why people keep throwing my name around or accusing me of racism when all I had done was get upset about what Larian themselves have stated and written as per this article:

https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/20...e-faces-of-eight-races-for-early-access/

I have stopped making connections to real world issues since I was asked to, however note that the OP in this thread did also make this connection, so it was an on topic discussion:

Quote
... but Asians are human, and elves are not.


Neither me, the OP, or anyone else are making these connections. Larian themselves however have:

Quote
“We decided to use scanned faces in our production to create characters that were as realistic as possible. We scanned 40 people of different ages and ethnicity. While scouting for models we focused on features that would fit our fantasy races and we looked for faces that either had something unique about them or were very versatile to fit different characters.” Dubrovina says those 40 faces became the starting points for a total of 150 faces Larian created for the game.


People are simply trying to say that we not only do not like this decision, and that I personally find it highly offensive, but this design choice has evidently not created good results, mainly due to the fact that people are not fantasy races.

We would prefer the traditional method of either fully customisable characters, and / or hand crafted faces created by artists, as it is not only tried, tested and long proven to create better results, but this new method that Larian have used has comparatively created far inferior faces than would otherwise be possible.

I do not like any of the faces I can choose, and this prevents me from playing most of the races, not just limited to elves.

I would at least like to have the option to handcraft my own characters.



Posted By: Sadurian Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 15/10/20 01:26 PM
Originally Posted by Anung un Rama
Are you able to give your opinion without offending anyone?

You need to grow a thicker skin, mate.
Posted By: blindhamster Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 15/10/20 01:30 PM
Originally Posted by TheAscendent
So does Astarion look enough like an Elf?


IMO, Astarion is much closer than most of the stock faces, because he's got quite angular and slender features. That being said, his eyes should be more almond shaped and probably a touch larger, his jawline probably should be slightly more angled too as should his brows. He looks like he would have been a moon elf pre-vampirism based on his colouration (except eyes which are vamp red i suppose lol).

Originally Posted by Sadurian
Originally Posted by Veles
I like elves in their current state and tottaly fine with their apperance. I don't wanna play freaks. Please,devs, don't listen these fools.

I don't want to play elves, full stop. They are over-rated, narcissistic and so up their own digestive systems that they can watch their stomachs emptying. Odd bat-eared anorexics that they are.

Bah. Remove elves altogether and fill the space with gnomes and more dwarves. You know it makes sense.


On the other end of the spectrum, they're my favourite race with one of the most interesting histories in forgotten realms.
Originally Posted by Sadurian
Originally Posted by Anung un Rama
Are you able to give your opinion without offending anyone?

You need to grow a thicker skin, mate.


Probably, but it would be even better to avoid offending each other, as I really want this discussion to stay on topic and without further drama.
Posted By: xMardeRx Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 15/10/20 02:18 PM
I agree on Elves not looking like Elves.

Warhammer 40k did good thing with the Eldar and Drukari (Space Elves)
The old Elders scrols did the same thing until the MMO.

The elven face choices now are something to be put in half Elven subrace.

You also use a to complicated language to communicate with the dumb dumb´s that want shove real world politics in to that.

Elve´s are as alien looking as the grey or xenomorphs are to us or would be to us if they where real. They are a alien form and have to look that part as much as possible you are not to identify with them by looks and appearance!
You as human are not like them and they are not like you.
Half elves are halve human halve elves and elven features get mixed in both then its ok but pure elves no. They have to look alien and out of place because that is what they are! ALIENS! Outlanders, not natives, diffrent.

This is not USA dumb dumb´s look for the top super modle star and you dont choose some one or something related from the looks but what they offer as a class as a race as bonus. What is so wrong with being different? Scared of unique identity?
Why do you have to create a single ugly mass of grey where everything looks the same?

Posted By: AnonySimon Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 15/10/20 02:23 PM
Originally Posted by blindhamster
In Forgotten realms there are quite a few
High Elves
- Sun Elves: Regal looking, typically bronzed skin, they have hair colours of brown/red/copper/gold typically and their eyes are usually black, gold or silver
- Moon Elves: Pale skin, often with a blue or purple hue, hair colours covering all human ones plus silver and blue, their eyes are usually blue or green with gold flecks
- Star Elves: pale skin with gold, silver or red hair and tend to be particularly slender, their eyes are similar to moon elves

Wood Elves
- Copper Elves: tend to be broader and sturdier, tan or bronzed skin, copper, brown, black or golden blond hair with eyes of green, hazel or brown. Wood elves are technically one of the only races of elves native to Faerun, the reason for this is they come from intermingling of Wild Elves with other elves over many generations.
- Wild/Green Elves: tend toward darker skin tones from tanned to dark brown, usually have darker hair colour and eyes similar to copper elves.

Eladrin: Eladrin are Elves native to the feywild still, their appearance literally changes with the seasons, they look a lot like Sun Elves in terms of their regal appearance, but their hair, skin and eye colours change with the passing of each season, as does their personality.

Drow
- Lolthian Drow: Shorter than surface elves, they're graceful and regal looking, their skin is almost always shades of obsidian, purple, grey. brown or blue undertones differentiate them though, their eyes are almost always red, with violet and amber being rare exceptions, their hair is always white or off white. Their colouring is part of a curse put upon them by Corellon for their actions around the early crown wars.
- Dark Elves (Seldarine drow in this game): These drow have had Corellons curse lifted due to actions shortly before the spellplague. They have reverted to their original colourations (NOT how they're shown in the game) and look a lot like Wild/Green Elves for colouration.

Lythari: Esentially a unique non-evil breed of Elven werewolf that doesn't have a hybrid form, they're usually depicted as pale with grey or white hair both in elf and wolf form. But they're usually found in Wood Elf lands, so in theory make more sense to match their colouring to some extent.

Avariel: Winged Elves, their features are even more delicate than other elves, with eyes that are larger than most too, their eyes tend to be bright blues, greens or even purple, their skin colour isn't really described anywhere but the only art of them shown has been pale/tanned. Their hair and wings tend to be black/white/silver. Though the most well known Avariel, Aerie from BG2 has blond hair. Avariel are noted as being shorter than High or Wood elves in the same way that drow are.

Aquatic Elves: their build is probably the most sturdy of all the elves and tend to be tall. Their skin tends toward blues and greens, but sometimes browns or even silvers, their hair is usually blacks, greens, blues, browns or even red. Their eyes are usually black, blue, white, green or very rarely silver.


Regardless of the kind, they all have the angular features, almond eyes and pointed ears. None of them can grow facial hair or have body hair.

If Larian really want to include human ethnicities in the different elves, they should at least try and correlate the human ethnicities to those subraces and go from there. Right now the Elves are just /wrong/ and it's crazy because there are EXCELLENT resources available for multiple editions of D&D describing all the above.

Most notably for D&D 5e, Sword Coast Adventurers Guide which should honestly be a default inclusion for this game anyway, considering the setting.


+1 (I bolded the different subraces in the above quote for emphasis)
Posted By: Sai the Elf Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 15/10/20 03:11 PM
AnonySimon pretty much covered the subraces, I just think they need to be slimmed down a bit, the PC elves are built like half elves and Halsin is built like a Half-Orc.
Posted By: xMardeRx Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 15/10/20 03:36 PM
Originally Posted by Sadurian
Originally Posted by Lady Avyna
I was not talking to you and I never called you a racist. The post was directed to DumbleDorf who keeps bringing up identity politics. SHAME on you for insulting me when I wasn't even talking to you. Shows how immature you are. At the end of the day this is just a video game.

I think the OP has flounced so probably won't respond.

However, for the record, I agree with you. I'm uncomfortable in assigning Terran human ethnic characteristics to non-human Faerun races just to meet a diversity target and reflect the world in which we live, but by all means have dwarfs that have negroid facial features or elves that are Asian in appearance. However, make that the effect of the world in which THEY live and not the world in which WE live. If we use Tolkien as the base reference, and most fantasy RPG elves follow his model, then they are all fair skinned and tall. Despite being a South African by birth, Tolkien had no reason to use another ethnic group as his base appearance and culture because he knew what he wanted his elves to look like. That does not mean that another fantasy world creator cannot make elves who are Asian, brown, black or even small and green.

Fantasy races look like they do because that's how we, as consumers and creators of fantasy worlds, visualise them. My 'perfect' model for an elf will look very different to yours and will probably reflect my own culture and upbringing. However, we should both have the option to create a character based on our own vision.


Wrong as the looks or elves where already outlined and there is no room for "interpretation" and "I want".
The visualization is already done by the the creators of DnD.

You dont slap pointy ears on human and call it a Eleve.
Posted By: Sadurian Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 15/10/20 04:44 PM
Originally Posted by xMardeRx
The visualization is already done by the the creators of DnD.

Actually, visualisation for the Forgotten Realms elves was done by Ed Greenwood before AD&D or D&D, or even Chainmail, was a thing. He had already mostly created the world before suggesting it as a setting for D&D. He, like Gygax and Arneson, was influenced by fantasy authors such as Tolkien for their world's inhabitants and so similarities already existed, but changes were made to Greenwood's original world to better suit the D&D/AD&D game. Forgotten Realms elves, however, owe more to Greenwood than to Gygax and Arneson.

What you picked up on for the rest of the post is slightly misinterpreted. I was not suggesting that I ought to be able to create an elf character that is bright purple with a huge melon for a head and six legs, but that, within the guidelines of Forgotten Realm's existing literature, I should be able to create a character that suits what I want t create, be that dark brown, light-skinned or anything in-between. No fantasy setting has ever described every single individual of a species with their setting, and it is therefore possible that variants of (say) a Wood Elf have features that are not exactly the same as any of the illustrations seen on the internet. As it is possible, I would like that option to be available for my version of an elf character. Ideally, of course, I would like an infinite number of variations, but this is impractical. However, the elf faces seen in BG3 are not, to my mind, in any way unreasonable. I'd like more choice, yes, but we cannot have everything.

Originally Posted by xMardeRx
You dont slap pointy ears on human and call it a Eleve.

I'm not sure I'd slap ears on anything and call it an Eleve.
Posted By: Hachina Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 15/10/20 06:40 PM




Originally Posted by Lady Avyna
Originally Posted by Hachina
Originally Posted by Lady Avyna
Quote



I didn't want to come back here, but it's absurd that you think you have the right to say that kind of thing without any basis, and act like I'm the one who started the insults.

I didn't attack anyone because of their opinions, but you and others try to make it look like I'm a racist. That's disgusting. I challenge you to find a comment that I made that has racist implications ... Well, there are none and you know it.

So, if you have a little decency, you will apologize.


That comment that I wrote about someone being a racist was NOT directed to YOU!!! There is NO REASON for you attack me. I was NOT talking to you. The problem is you got tagged because DumbleDorf wrote on your thread. AGAIN, my comment was NOT directed to YOU but to DUMBLEDOF. He was responding to Goldenberry who was responding to ME. This starting quote that I said, should tell you I wasn't talking to you. "I'm gonna answer you here because it seems like your post was locked where people can't respond." That proves I was talking to Dumbledorf who has another thread that was blocked by the administrator because he was bringing up racial politics and I told him to be careful not to sound like a racist. NOTHING TO DO WITH YOU!!!

DO YOU UNDERSTAND NOW? I would be nice if you apologize to me for calling me a child and immature when I was NOT talking to YOU.


I don't really want to argue but I feel like a third party may be needed here. Anung whole point is that he wants elves to look more stylized, lean, chiseled, basically, the classic elf looking. And the classic elf looking doesn't ressemble minority or anything, he looks like his own race. Its basically hight cheekbone, Hollow cheek, slanted eyes, and so on , everyone know what I mean. But in your comment, you called anyone that didn't want elves to look like a real world minority a ''racist'' and that include people who want otherwordly , androgynous, slender elves (because otherworldy elves don't look like world minority. nor like world majority, actually; They just look different). Thus,I understand that you didn't mean that, but the way your comment is put can be misleading.


Like I mention in another response to someone else, I don't have a problem with elves looking like traditional elves. The issue some of us have comes mostly from DumbleDorf who brought in his dislike of identity politics and is blaming Larian for that. I believe there were also others, I do don't remember who, that also stated they don't want faces to represent ethnic minorities. I am not directly calling anyone a racist. All I'm saying is to be careful not to "seem" like a racist when talking about identity politics as that is a very sensitive subject for some people.



I understand.


Originally Posted by Anung un Rama
Originally Posted by Hachina
Originally Posted by Lady Avyna
Quote



I didn't want to come back here, but it's absurd that you think you have the right to say that kind of thing without any basis, and act like I'm the one who started the insults.

I didn't attack anyone because of their opinions, but you and others try to make it look like I'm a racist. That's disgusting. I challenge you to find a comment that I made that has racist implications ... Well, there are none and you know it.

So, if you have a little decency, you will apologize.


That comment that I wrote about someone being a racist was NOT directed to YOU!!! There is NO REASON for you attack me. I was NOT talking to you. The problem is you got tagged because DumbleDorf wrote on your thread. AGAIN, my comment was NOT directed to YOU but to DUMBLEDOF. He was responding to Goldenberry who was responding to ME. This starting quote that I said, should tell you I wasn't talking to you. "I'm gonna answer you here because it seems like your post was locked where people can't respond." That proves I was talking to Dumbledorf who has another thread that was blocked by the administrator because he was bringing up racial politics and I told him to be careful not to sound like a racist. NOTHING TO DO WITH YOU!!!

DO YOU UNDERSTAND NOW? I would be nice if you apologize to me for calling me a child and immature when I was NOT talking to YOU.


I don't really want to argue but I feel like a third party may be needed here. Anung whole point is that he wants elves to look more stylized, lean, chiseled, basically, the classic elf looking. And the classic elf looking doesn't ressemble minority or anything, he looks like his own race. Its basically hight cheekbone, Hollow cheek, slanted eyes, and so on , everyone know what I mean. But in your comment, you called anyone that didn't want elves to look like a real world minority a ''racist'' and that include people who want otherwordly , androgynous, slender elves (because otherworldy elves don't look like world minority. nor like world majority, actually; They just look different). Thus,I understand that you didn't mean that, but the way your comment is put can be misleading.


Thank you! You said it perfectly.


No point ! smile
Posted By: Citizn Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 15/10/20 09:09 PM
Originally Posted by TheAscendent
So does Astarion look enough like an Elf?


I always think of Astarion as 1/4 Elf, that's how I'm roleplaying him at least


Posted By: DumbleDorf Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 15/10/20 09:22 PM
Astarion looks like a Human Vampire to me.

Nothing at all elvish about him.
Posted By: Lady Avyna Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 15/10/20 10:53 PM
Originally Posted by xMardeRx
Originally Posted by Sadurian
Originally Posted by Lady Avyna
I was not talking to you and I never called you a racist. The post was directed to DumbleDorf who keeps bringing up identity politics. SHAME on you for insulting me when I wasn't even talking to you. Shows how immature you are. At the end of the day this is just a video game.

I think the OP has flounced so probably won't respond.

However, for the record, I agree with you. I'm uncomfortable in assigning Terran human ethnic characteristics to non-human Faerun races just to meet a diversity target and reflect the world in which we live, but by all means have dwarfs that have negroid facial features or elves that are Asian in appearance. However, make that the effect of the world in which THEY live and not the world in which WE live. If we use Tolkien as the base reference, and most fantasy RPG elves follow his model, then they are all fair skinned and tall. Despite being a South African by birth, Tolkien had no reason to use another ethnic group as his base appearance and culture because he knew what he wanted his elves to look like. That does not mean that another fantasy world creator cannot make elves who are Asian, brown, black or even small and green.

Fantasy races look like they do because that's how we, as consumers and creators of fantasy worlds, visualise them. My 'perfect' model for an elf will look very different to yours and will probably reflect my own culture and upbringing. However, we should both have the option to create a character based on our own vision.


Wrong as the looks or elves where already outlined and there is no room for "interpretation" and "I want".
The visualization is already done by the the creators of DnD.

You dont slap pointy ears on human and call it a Eleve.


What some of us are saying is that you can still have elves look like traditional DnD elves but there is nothing wrong with making the elves slightly resemble real world ethnicities. For example, an African resembling elf would have a wider nose, full lips, darker skin and curly dark hair OR you can have each different race of elves culture represent the different real world cultures. This also can include their clothing option as representative of where they are from. For example, say you have elves that live in the desert, that could be a representation of the Arabian culture. I think that would be cool if game designers did that.
Posted By: Lady Avyna Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 15/10/20 11:01 PM
Originally Posted by Citizn
Originally Posted by TheAscendent
So does Astarion look enough like an Elf?


I always think of Astarion as 1/4 Elf, that's how I'm roleplaying him at least




Astarion is a full blooded High Elf but he's also a 200 year old vampire. When it comes to his character design, I think the developers might of had a difficult time figuring out how to combine his elf and vampire side. From what I see, the only elf features he has is his angular type face, his ears and his body shape. As for his vampire side, the only thing he had are his fangs and red eyes. They could have designed him a little better. If I were designing him, I would change his eyes and make them slightly bigger, a little slanted and bigger pupils. That would make him a little more elvish. I would also change his hair color as he is already pale enough.
Posted By: xMardeRx Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 15/10/20 11:10 PM
Originally Posted by Lady Avyna
Originally Posted by xMardeRx
Originally Posted by Sadurian
Originally Posted by Lady Avyna
I was not talking to you and I never called you a racist. The post was directed to DumbleDorf who keeps bringing up identity politics. SHAME on you for insulting me when I wasn't even talking to you. Shows how immature you are. At the end of the day this is just a video game.

I think the OP has flounced so probably won't respond.

However, for the record, I agree with you. I'm uncomfortable in assigning Terran human ethnic characteristics to non-human Faerun races just to meet a diversity target and reflect the world in which we live, but by all means have dwarfs that have negroid facial features or elves that are Asian in appearance. However, make that the effect of the world in which THEY live and not the world in which WE live. If we use Tolkien as the base reference, and most fantasy RPG elves follow his model, then they are all fair skinned and tall. Despite being a South African by birth, Tolkien had no reason to use another ethnic group as his base appearance and culture because he knew what he wanted his elves to look like. That does not mean that another fantasy world creator cannot make elves who are Asian, brown, black or even small and green.

Fantasy races look like they do because that's how we, as consumers and creators of fantasy worlds, visualise them. My 'perfect' model for an elf will look very different to yours and will probably reflect my own culture and upbringing. However, we should both have the option to create a character based on our own vision.


Wrong as the looks or elves where already outlined and there is no room for "interpretation" and "I want".
The visualization is already done by the the creators of DnD.

You dont slap pointy ears on human and call it a Eleve.


What some of us are saying is that you can still have elves look like traditional DnD elves but there is nothing wrong with making the elves slightly resemble real world ethnicities. For example, an African resembling elf would have a wider nose, full lips, darker skin and curly dark hair OR you can have each different race of elves culture represent the different real world cultures. This also can include their clothing option as representative of where they are from. For example, say you have elves that live in the desert, that could be a representation of the Arabian culture. I think that would be cool if game designers did that.


You apparently do not understand that elves are in any way resembling humans. No a African cant be Eleve as Asian cant be one as a Caucasian cant be one as they are not human. Elves are not human in any form do not follow human gentics, they are alien!
Why are you pressing real world elements in something that has no real world resemblance?
Elves are alien and that has to be visually represented.

What some of you saying is idiocy in the purest form.

If start stupid stuff like that why even have different races and monsters why not just have grey orbs floating round with no visual and race/gender related differences. What you suggest ist to kill all the flavor for sake of inclusiveness witch is stupid in its own sense. There green human= orc Human with pointy ears= Eleve small human dwarf or maybe halfling or maybe gnome I dont know you nobody will know because you killed all flavors all differences that make out the rich and flavorfull world that DnD is and offers.

There is everything wrong with making elves or any other race to resemble humans and real world ethnicity's. Elves are not from Ferun, do you understand?!
They are aliens, different biology, different biomes, different genetics, !!!!!DIFFERENT!!!!!!

You ask for a grey blob souless blob.
Posted By: Lady Avyna Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 15/10/20 11:49 PM
Originally Posted by xMardeRx
Originally Posted by Lady Avyna
Originally Posted by xMardeRx


Wrong as the looks or elves where already outlined and there is no room for "interpretation" and "I want".
The visualization is already done by the the creators of DnD.

You dont slap pointy ears on human and call it a Eleve.


What some of us are saying is that you can still have elves look like traditional DnD elves but there is nothing wrong with making the elves slightly resemble real world ethnicities. For example, an African resembling elf would have a wider nose, full lips, darker skin and curly dark hair OR you can have each different race of elves culture represent the different real world cultures. This also can include their clothing option as representative of where they are from. For example, say you have elves that live in the desert, that could be a representation of the Arabian culture. I think that would be cool if game designers did that.


You apparently do not understand that elves are in any way resembling humans. No a African cant be Eleve as Asian cant be one as a Caucasian cant be one as they are not human. Elves are not human in any form do not follow human gentics, they are alien!
Why are you pressing real world elements in something that has no real world resemblance?
Elves are alien and that has to be visually represented.

What some of you saying is idiocy in the purest form.

If start stupid stuff like that why even have different races and monsters why not just have grey orbs floating round with no visual and race/gender related differences. What you suggest ist to kill all the flavor for sake of inclusiveness witch is stupid in its own sense. There green human= orc Human with pointy ears= Eleve small human dwarf or maybe halfling or maybe gnome I dont know you nobody will know because you killed all flavors all differences that make out the rich and flavorfull world that DnD is and offers.

There is everything wrong with making elves or any other race to resemble humans and real world ethnicity's. Elves are not from Ferun, do you understand?!
They are aliens, different biology, different biomes, different genetics, !!!!!DIFFERENT!!!!!!

You ask for a grey blob souless blob.


First of all there is no need for you to get all worked up over all of us having a conversation about our different opinions on elves. We can all learn from each other. None of us are saying for the elves to not look like traditional elves. None of us are saying that. You claim the elves are aliens, they are otherworldly from the Forgotten Realms campaign. Their ancestors are the Eladrin who are native of Feywild. The High Elves of DnD are also known as "common" Eladrin. There are also different races of elves like the Sun Elves, Moon Elves, Star Elves, Wood Elves, Dark Elves (the Drow), Aquatic Elves and so on. Each of those different types of elves can have different elvish cultures that COULD be representative of real world cultures, IF the game developers so choose to do that. It does NOT mean that they should change the way the elves look. Period.
Posted By: Hachina Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 15/10/20 11:49 PM
Originally Posted by Lady Avyna
Originally Posted by Citizn
Originally Posted by TheAscendent
So does Astarion look enough like an Elf?


I always think of Astarion as 1/4 Elf, that's how I'm roleplaying him at least




Astarion is a full blooded High Elf but he's also a 200 year old vampire. When it comes to his character design, I think the developers might of had a difficult time figuring out how to combine his elf and vampire side. From what I see, the only elf features he has is his angular type face, his ears and his body shape. As for his vampire side, the only thing he had are his fangs and red eyes. They could have designed him a little better. If I were designing him, I would change his eyes and make them slightly bigger, a little slanted and bigger pupils. That would make him a little more elvish. I would also change his hair color as he is already pale enough.


Yeah. the red eyes and teeth really give him away for his vampire nature. Fortunatly, vampire traditionnally have hollowed cheeks and hight chiseled cheekbones, which goes well with the elf style; his pales skin and cinder hair does the rest. I think Astarion really does look how he is supposed to look, and I really appreciate his expression too, very realistic for his personnality.
Posted By: Lady Avyna Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 15/10/20 11:55 PM
Originally Posted by Hachina
Originally Posted by Lady Avyna
Originally Posted by Citizn
Originally Posted by TheAscendent
So does Astarion look enough like an Elf?


I always think of Astarion as 1/4 Elf, that's how I'm roleplaying him at least




Astarion is a full blooded High Elf but he's also a 200 year old vampire. When it comes to his character design, I think the developers might of had a difficult time figuring out how to combine his elf and vampire side. From what I see, the only elf features he has is his angular type face, his ears and his body shape. As for his vampire side, the only thing he had are his fangs and red eyes. They could have designed him a little better. If I were designing him, I would change his eyes and make them slightly bigger, a little slanted and bigger pupils. That would make him a little more elvish. I would also change his hair color as he is already pale enough.


Yeah. the red eyes and teeth really give him away for his vampire nature. Fortunatly, vampire traditionnally have hollowed cheeks and hight chiseled cheekbones, which goes well with the elf style; his pales skin and cinder hair does the rest. I think Astarion really does look how he is supposed to look, and I really appreciate his expression too, very realistic for his personnality.


I agree his mannerism are very good. I think Larian did a good job with motion capture.
Originally Posted by Hachina
Originally Posted by Lady Avyna
Originally Posted by Citizn
Originally Posted by TheAscendent
So does Astarion look enough like an Elf?


I always think of Astarion as 1/4 Elf, that's how I'm roleplaying him at least




Astarion is a full blooded High Elf but he's also a 200 year old vampire. When it comes to his character design, I think the developers might of had a difficult time figuring out how to combine his elf and vampire side. From what I see, the only elf features he has is his angular type face, his ears and his body shape. As for his vampire side, the only thing he had are his fangs and red eyes. They could have designed him a little better. If I were designing him, I would change his eyes and make them slightly bigger, a little slanted and bigger pupils. That would make him a little more elvish. I would also change his hair color as he is already pale enough.


Yeah. the red eyes and teeth really give him away for his vampire nature. Fortunatly, vampire traditionnally have hollowed cheeks and hight chiseled cheekbones, which goes well with the elf style; his pales skin and cinder hair does the rest. I think Astarion really does look how he is supposed to look, and I really appreciate his expression too, very realistic for his personnality.


Yes, he behaves very realistically. And I don't think they need to make a lot of changes to his model, just a few adjustments to make his face a little more delicate. The most important thing they need to improve is the eyes, make them bigger and sharper. I think that would make him such an impressive figure.

[edit] Maybe change his eye color to a deeper and shinier red.
Posted By: Arideya Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 16/10/20 12:44 AM
Originally Posted by Anung un Rama


Yes, he behaves very realistically. And I don't think they need to make a lot of changes to his model, just a few adjustments to make his face a little more delicate. The most important thing they need to improve is the eyes, make them bigger and sharper. I think that would make him such an impressive figure.

[edit] Maybe change his eye color to a deeper and shinier red.


Astarion's already got a following. If they change his appearance people will riot.
Originally Posted by Arideya
Originally Posted by Anung un Rama


Yes, he behaves very realistically. And I don't think they need to make a lot of changes to his model, just a few adjustments to make his face a little more delicate. The most important thing they need to improve is the eyes, make them bigger and sharper. I think that would make him such an impressive figure.

[edit] Maybe change his eye color to a deeper and shinier red.


Astarion's already got a following. If they change his appearance people will riot.



I don't think so, since most of the people I talked to seem to want the elves to have their appearance changed to the classic version we see in Forgotten Realms. And anyway, I didn't suggest anything drastic.
Posted By: Arideya Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 16/10/20 02:00 AM
Originally Posted by Anung un Rama


I don't think so, since most of the people I talked to seem to want the elves to have their appearance changed to the classic version we see in Forgotten Realms. And anyway, I didn't suggest anything drastic.


Here on the forums maybe, in other places - have you seen Tumblr? The bg3 tag there is 80% Astarion.
I dont mind either way, in fact I was here earlier arguing for FR-looking elves. But you have to keep in mind that those 1 mil copies have already created an audience that is already attached to something. Changing both Astarion and Shadowheart might be or may not be a good idea. Only Larian knows who the fan favorites are so either of us may be right or none of us.
Originally Posted by Arideya
Originally Posted by Anung un Rama


I don't think so, since most of the people I talked to seem to want the elves to have their appearance changed to the classic version we see in Forgotten Realms. And anyway, I didn't suggest anything drastic.


Here on the forums maybe, in other places - have you seen Tumblr? The bg3 tag there is 80% Astarion.
I dont mind either way, in fact I was here earlier arguing for FR-looking elves. But you have to keep in mind that those 1 mil copies have already created an audience that is already attached to something. Changing both Astarion and Shadowheart might be or may not be a good idea. Only Larian knows who the fan favorites are so either of us may be right or none of us.


Maybe you're right. Anyway, to me, companions don't matter as much as the options we have available for the character creation. Even if Larian does not make a total modification to the elves, they should at least make their current faces more delicate, because at the moment half-elves seem more elven than the "pure" ones.
Posted By: Buttery_Mess Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 19/10/20 05:32 AM
I had a quick look online for some Forgotten Realms art, and from what I could see Faerunian elves do seem to have more human-like faces than pan-planar elves.

I always thought that Elves are supposed to be beautiful, but 3.5e elf descriptions have them being so deformed as to be disturbing and ugly. I can draw elves that are a good middle ground between the two extremes but I can't expect Larian to create their art the same as me.
Posted By: Seraphael Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 19/10/20 06:48 AM
Seems to me Larian actually got elves and half-elves confused at a point and just went with it. The half-elves are supposedly of elf-human heritage, yet look quite fey - whereas the elves somehow has adopted distinct human ethnic traits. This is exacerbated by the grotesquely masculine looks (apart from the pouting duck face lips) of the elf male models. Bioware uglified their elves for DA, no need to follow their example at all.
Posted By: Stray952 Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 19/10/20 07:47 AM
Can someone show what a FR/ethereal elf looks like?

played around with creating a Drow character today. I have to say I don’t think things that pass in animation are going to translate into these hyper real renderings the way you want.

Reading in a book that a creature has blue/black skin and white hair, even painting it is easy, but getting it to not look super weird in photo-real graphics is near impossible.

I eventually got something that I was Ok with and close to the lore, but now my char looks totally weird and out of place among the other characters. There’s something about DnD where everyone wants everything to be fantastical, but it’s a lot harder to translate that into this medium and keep it believable than you think.

You can’t have a cartoon, a stop-motion character, a muppet, a bear and a person all standing around having a conversation. And that’s kind of what we’re always asking for. If we got it we wouldn’t like it.
Posted By: Sadurian Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 19/10/20 08:00 AM
Originally Posted by Stray952
Can someone show what a FR/ethereal elf looks like?

You'd be surprised at how loose the 'official' descriptions actually are. Like most things in a fantasy setting, the actual look is largely down to your own interpretation. Yes, there are pictures of FR elves available, but they are simply someone else's interpretation of an imaginary being. Nobody can show you what one looks like because they don't exist, but you can certainly get inspiration for your own version from looking at pictures other people have drawn. A quick Google will find no shortage of elf pictures. None are any more or less 'canon' than the others.

I would also point out that there is nothing to say that your version is originally from Faerun. FR is a large place and you could have grown up elsewhere. A KaraTur elf (for example) might look different to a Faerun elf. The Forgotten Realms is not Faerun, there are many more areas and, logically, many variations on the different races/species that live there.

Originally Posted by Stray952
I eventually got something that I was Ok with and close to the lore, but now my char looks totally weird and out of place among the other characters. There’s something about DnD where everyone wants everything to be fantastical, but it’s a lot harder to translate that into this medium and keep it believable than you think.

You can’t have a cartoon, a stop-motion character, a muppet, a bear and a person all standing around having a conversation. And that’s kind of what we’re always asking for. If we got it we wouldn’t like it.

Yeah, some people like odd-looking characters. Everyone wants their character to be in some way special in an RPG (I'm no exception), and you do tend to see some right monsters out there. Be strong and stick with your own vision, It's your game.
Posted By: Lady Avyna Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 19/10/20 09:07 AM
Originally Posted by Seraphael
Seems to me Larian actually got elves and half-elves confused at a point and just went with it. The half-elves are supposedly of elf-human heritage, yet look quite fey - whereas the elves somehow has adopted distinct human ethnic traits. This is exacerbated by the grotesquely masculine looks (apart from the pouting duck face lips) of the elf male models. Bioware uglified their elves for DA, no need to follow their example at all.


I agree about the Elf male models, they have very pronounced jaw line and also the eyes seem to be too high and almost squinty looking. I also notice in the female models that the High Elves and the Drow have are the exact female face models. I know that they are both elves just different subraces, so they should've made different face models. At least to differentiate between High Elves and Drow besides skin color. It doesn't have to be drastic just different models so that the Drow doesn't look like the High Elves evil twin.
Posted By: Argonaut Re: Elves should look more otherworldly - 19/10/20 11:35 AM
Originally Posted by Neckbone
Larian has stated from the beginning that they want this game to be inclusive. They have features that are representative of our world so that people can play a character that looks like them. Who cares if their elves can appear to have Asian, European, or African features? Its not about being accurate to a fantasy world its about making sure everyone is represented. If you have an issue with that maybe you should reevaluate your life.

It's a high fantasy title, why do you think people wouldn't care if choices where made to dilute this?

Elves in FR are meant to have angular, elongated and alien features and their renown for beauty is not just due to their unblemished skin or fair features but subtle magical grace. By changing the features to make everything homogenous and consistent with reality not only are you diluting the identity of the race but also the source material and high fantasy aspects of the game. Homogenization is not inclusion because regardless of anything else you cannot and will never be an elf and inclusive options are already present in human races. I can understand this mentality for the half races but pure elves? I don't think we should constrict creativity and dilute originality to appease a fantasy that can never be fulfilled.

© Larian Studios forums