Larian Studios
Posted By: OneManArmy Fan club of Minthara - 14/10/20 09:21 PM
Players who chose the evil path of the first act
(which ended with sex with Mintara)

What do you think of this gorgeous Drow?
Would you like such an evil companion, full disclosure of the character, the continuation of the romance Mintara and protagonist in the release?

Did she remind you of Viconia? (if you played the Baldurs Gate 2)

[Linked Image]
Posted By: Warlocke Re: Fan club of Minthara - 14/10/20 09:36 PM
It looks like her head is in the process of trying to snap itself off of her neck in that screenshot. 😂
Posted By: BladeDancer Re: Fan club of Minthara - 16/10/20 05:32 PM
What I find really interesting about her is that she is Jarlaxle's cousin.
Posted By: Abits Re: Fan club of Minthara - 16/10/20 05:45 PM
Big missed opportunity. She doesn't do anything, whether you go good or evil it doesn't matter. Go kill goblins or owwww you kill me.
Posted By: Skarpharald Re: Fan club of Minthara - 16/10/20 05:47 PM
Great believable character, just like a female drow should be IMO. Somewhat creepy (just the right amount). Powerful. Short tempered. Bossy. Wants to show no weakness, even if there is a smidgeon. Fits the setting super well. Great voice acting.
Posted By: dspsr1970 Re: Fan club of Minthara - 16/10/20 07:31 PM
I liked her, has more story than you think. Most people play the game a certain way, but if you change your outlook, she changes also. (Sorry not trying to spoil it)
Posted By: Eddiar Re: Fan club of Minthara - 16/10/20 07:48 PM
There are dozens of you! DOZENS!
Posted By: ArmouredHedgehog Re: Fan club of Minthara - 16/10/20 08:04 PM

The game files indicate that a future companion will be a drow.
Posted By: Hachina Re: Fan club of Minthara - 16/10/20 08:15 PM
Originally Posted by OneManArmy
Players who chose the evil path of the first act
(which ended with sex with Mintara)

What do you think of this gorgeous Drow?
Would you like such an evil companion, full disclosure of the character, the continuation of the romance Mintara and protagonist in the release?

Did she remind you of Viconia? (if you played the Baldurs Gate 2)

[Linked Image]


She didn't talk much before I killed her. Her design isn't impressive and doesn't show she is a priestess of Lolth (no spider emblem, armor is generic). Her text is generic as well, basically order you to kill the groves. Doesn't give you a reason, doesn't promise you a reward.

Would like a lot more developpement on this character, as she is kinda the final boss of the first part of act1 . Or one possible final boss.
Posted By: ArmouredHedgehog Re: Fan club of Minthara - 16/10/20 08:21 PM
She is not a priestess of Lolth (unless the absolute is an invention of Lolth), but a priestess of the absolute. I guess designs for absolute Armor (except for a few goblin items) have not been finalized yet.
I also think that she is too weak for the role she plays in terms of level but

game files suggest a coming drow companion. If that is going to be Minthara it is understandable that she is only level 5.

Most of the world currently seems stuck at Lvl 5, a few stronger creatures would be manageable
Posted By: Hachina Re: Fan club of Minthara - 16/10/20 08:37 PM
Originally Posted by ArmouredHedgehog
She is not a priestess of Lolth (unless the absolute is an invention of Lolth), but a priestess of the absolute. I guess designs for absolute Armor (except for a few goblin items) have not been finalized yet.
I also think that she is too weak for the role she plays in terms of level but

game files suggest a coming drow companion. If that is going to be Minthara it is understandable that she is only level 5.

Most of the world currently seems stuck at Lvl 5, a few stronger creatures would be manageable


Yeah , right. forgot about that, read too much Drizz't and I tend to associate drow priestess with Lolth.
I agree on the stronger creature.
Posted By: OneManArmy Re: Fan club of Minthara - 19/10/20 10:57 PM
It will be interesting if we can play a neutral or partially good hero with Minthara too, a bit crazy idea. Perhaps she is not as evil as it seems at first glance, judging by her ability for mercy, and by the fears that are available if you pass the check in a certain scene. Perhaps for this you will need to get her in another way, keeping her alive in the first act after taking the side of the tieflings, but not planning to play an exclusively "good" role?

She can surrender and offer our character her services, since her mission will be failed and she will be punished even if she returns to the drow. And our party is an opportunity to compete for power together. At the same time, we may have the opportunity to betray her later, and if we do not use her, we will show that we can protect her, she will appreciate it

As an alternative way to get it
Posted By: FatePeddler Re: Fan club of Minthara - 19/10/20 11:11 PM
I'll never help this girl, Halsin is too cute <3. I must help my big fluffy bear! ^^
Posted By: Kraydenvar Re: Fan club of Minthara - 20/10/20 12:01 AM
"Listen, I can change her." lol

Originally Posted by OneManArmy
It will be interesting if we can play a neutral or partially good hero with Minthara too, a bit crazy idea. Perhaps she is not as evil as it seems at first glance, judging by her ability for mercy, and by the fears that are available if you pass the check in a certain scene. Perhaps for this you will need to get her in another way, keeping her alive in the first act after taking the side of the tieflings, but not planning to play an exclusively "good" role?

She can surrender and offer our character her services, since her mission will be failed and she will be punished even if she returns to the drow. And our party is an opportunity to compete for power together. At the same time, we may have the opportunity to betray her later, and if we do not use her, we will show that we can protect her, she will appreciate it

As an alternative way to get it


but seriously, I think there would be a more clear neutral way to gain her path if she was supposed to be available for a true neutral playthru. Killing a bunch of teiflings and druids kind of feels less neutral, even if there are no witnesses left. I think the dialogue she gives you when she gives you the moontowers dialogue is a little too obvious in regard to her belief in the Absolute for them to change the writing to the extent you are suggesting.
Posted By: Xeneize Re: Fan club of Minthara - 20/10/20 12:07 AM
As tempting as it is, I'm not one to play the kind of chaotic evil that would raze away. I prefer subtle when it comes to villainy.
Posted By: Osprey39 Re: Fan club of Minthara - 20/10/20 12:21 AM
[Linked Image]

Die villainous Drow scum!!!
Posted By: Iszaryn Re: Fan club of Minthara - 20/10/20 12:54 AM
I'd like to see Minthara as a drow companion since I see we are suppose to get one. Also her head looks like it is about to fall off in that screenshot.
Posted By: Osprey39 Re: Fan club of Minthara - 20/10/20 01:21 AM
PS: I lost Halsin in that fight so I reloaded and killed her again just for good measure.

In all seriousness, just going by your screenshot as I have yet to have a conversation with her myself, I don't think she is a good representation of a female Drow from Menzobarranzan. First off, her hair looks like she has a mop on her head. Hairstyle is important and a mark of standing in Drow society. She looks like a male with shoulder length hair. No noble female Drow would wear their hair like that. Also, her skin is far too pale for a Drow. She looks like Astarion without the curls. Drow are called dark elves for a reason.
Posted By: Mestrahd Re: Fan club of Minthara - 20/10/20 01:33 AM
I used to be in the Minthara fan club. I was even willing to be her consort in Menzoberranzan. But she has trust issues.
Posted By: ArmouredHedgehog Re: Fan club of Minthara - 20/10/20 01:59 AM
I don't think that she should be available for a good aligned player. Shadowheart is confused about her morals, we do not need two of her kind. Minthara can take the role of cleric if shadowheart leaves
Posted By: OneManArmy Re: Fan club of Minthara - 20/10/20 02:02 AM
Originally Posted by ArmouredHedgehog
I don't think that she should be available for a good aligned player. Shadowheart is confused about her morals, we do not need two of her kind. Minthara can take the role of cleric if shadowheart leaves


By the way, you can complete the game with 4 clerics and feel good, a very versatile class
Posted By: ArmouredHedgehog Re: Fan club of Minthara - 20/10/20 02:04 AM
It is possible. But her turning good would require character development mirroring shadowhearts
Posted By: OneManArmy Re: Fan club of Minthara - 20/10/20 02:11 AM
Originally Posted by ArmouredHedgehog
It is possible. But her turning good would require character development mirroring shadowhearts


Maybe. But Shadow Heart is a half-elf, and Minthara is a drow.

There is a theory that Shadow Heart in the future can be both good and evil depending on the decisions of the player, and besides the fact that they are clerics, they are completely different

However, this may be the solution, yes. Conflicts are just like Karlach and Mizora - both are available, but a conflict is needed so as not to be duplicated.

But here I do not see that they strongly interfere with one another, the characters are similar only in that both clerics
Posted By: ArmouredHedgehog Re: Fan club of Minthara - 20/10/20 02:25 AM
I think it is very likely that shadowheart could turn either way. Her reaction to the druid camp affair point towards her leaning to the good. She regrets butchering the Tieflings if siding with the goblins and feels sympathy for the Tieflings when sideing with them
Posted By: Mister Monster Re: Fan club of Minthara - 20/10/20 03:42 AM
I was super happy to have my drow character turn on a dime and instant-loyalty in true jaluk fashion when a female drow priestess told him to turn around and stab his buddies. He did. No questions asked. And then, of course, he turned right back around and killed HER, for turning her back on Lolth. Aaaah, that was a fun murderhobo campaign. I think I killed pretty much everything on the map before moving to live in the underdark area.
Posted By: OneManArmy Re: Fan club of Minthara - 20/10/20 03:46 AM
Originally Posted by Mister Monster
I was super happy to have my drow character turn on a dime and instant-loyalty in true jaluk fashion when a female drow priestess told him to turn around and stab his buddies. He did. No questions asked. And then, of course, he turned right back around and killed HER, for turning her back on Lolth. Aaaah, that was a fun murderhobo campaign. I think I killed pretty much everything on the map before moving to live in the underdark area.


Even in a good playthrough? Interesting
I wonder if there would be a more hardcore femdom scene if the main character not only helped the goblins, but is also a drow male
Posted By: ArmouredHedgehog Re: Fan club of Minthara - 20/10/20 04:38 AM
A question for the Minthara fans:

Prior to telling the player about the path to moonrise towers what does she say about the parasite.
I wonder whether true souls know that they have tadpoles. Priestess Gut does not know
Posted By: Zzdtri Re: Fan club of Minthara - 20/10/20 08:02 AM
Originally Posted by Hachina
Her design isn't impressive and doesn't show she is a priestess of Lolth (no spider emblem, armor is generic)


She's a priestess of the Absolute, not Lolth (sadly frown ). I agree with you on other points. Appearance-wise she's not all that impressive. Attitude-wise, she's ok. Your standard run-off-the-mill drow female who thinks she's all that, but actually isn't. Someone mentioned earlier that she was Jarlaxle's cousin - so a Baenre priestess serving a deity other than Lolth...interesting, I wonder what her backstory is.

She doesn't really remind me of Viconia, except for her skin tone, the fact she's a Drow, and that she used "jaluk" on me :P

She has potential, though. I hope they fix her appearance at least.
Posted By: Eluvian Re: Fan club of Minthara - 20/10/20 09:05 AM

Originally Posted by Osprey39
PS: I lost Halsin in that fight so I reloaded and killed her again just for good measure.

In all seriousness, just going by your screenshot as I have yet to have a conversation with her myself, I don't think she is a good representation of a female Drow from Menzobarranzan. First off, her hair looks like she has a mop on her head. Hairstyle is important and a mark of standing in Drow society. She looks like a male with shoulder length hair. No noble female Drow would wear their hair like that. Also, her skin is far too pale for a Drow. She looks like Astarion without the curls. Drow are called dark elves for a reason.



I agree with the hair. Drow take great pride in their hair but in fairness she might not be of noble lineage. I can't see a noble drow being so easily turned from Lloth. According to the forgotten realms wiki drow can actually be albino too, which is what I like to make my MC. Her skin though is a bit light for the usual drow. I do kinda like that they do have more variation for their skin tones tho. Like in a lot of irl cases, where you live affects your colour, could be the case for drow on the surface too. idk, these are just nitpicks, especially for a character I'll kill every time. Dirty traitor!
Posted By: Tawkami Re: Fan club of Minthara - 20/10/20 02:52 PM
Originally Posted by Eluvian

Originally Posted by Osprey39
PS: I lost Halsin in that fight so I reloaded and killed her again just for good measure.

In all seriousness, just going by your screenshot as I have yet to have a conversation with her myself, I don't think she is a good representation of a female Drow from Menzobarranzan. First off, her hair looks like she has a mop on her head. Hairstyle is important and a mark of standing in Drow society. She looks like a male with shoulder length hair. No noble female Drow would wear their hair like that. Also, her skin is far too pale for a Drow. She looks like Astarion without the curls. Drow are called dark elves for a reason.



I agree with the hair. Drow take great pride in their hair but in fairness she might not be of noble lineage. I can't see a noble drow being so easily turned from Lloth. According to the forgotten realms wiki drow can actually be albino too, which is what I like to make my MC. Her skin though is a bit light for the usual drow. I do kinda like that they do have more variation for their skin tones tho. Like in a lot of irl cases, where you live affects your colour, could be the case for drow on the surface too. idk, these are just nitpicks, especially for a character I'll kill every time. Dirty traitor!


She is an adept of house Baenre apparently. On the subject of hair, I do wish we had some more 'fancy noble' hairstyles available. We have a great range, but I do love some intricate noble updo styles, especially on female Drow.
Posted By: Soulcatcher30 Re: Fan club of Minthara - 20/10/20 08:36 PM
I don't mind that she's not Lolth drow, in fact, I wish there were more non Loth drow around, like Vhaeraun drow. I just hope we might get to see her as a companion/follower, maybe continue the romance? What do you think?
Posted By: ArmouredHedgehog Re: Fan club of Minthara - 20/10/20 09:34 PM
Very likely a follower. The chances grow with every post about her.
Hair and armor will likely change. They needed to get early access out to gather feedback. Such details can follow later
Posted By: The Drow Warlock Re: Fan club of Minthara - 20/10/20 11:18 PM
Mhmm! Im going to have to name my guy Jaluk so we have a super special relationship <3

(Jk) I do hope reasons for joining with her are developed though, because right now we're either a really submissive Lolth Jaluk or just really crazy to all of a sudden give up the quest for a tadpole cure. ..Unless we're deciding to find the Absolute somehow for a cure...? Joining with her needs more exposition.

Posted By: HakkaStyle Re: Fan club of Minthara - 20/10/20 11:19 PM
She insulted my Half Elf So I gutted her like a fish. :P
Posted By: OneManArmy Re: Fan club of Minthara - 20/10/20 11:47 PM
Originally Posted by ArmouredHedgehog
Very likely a follower. The chances grow with every post about her.
Hair and armor will likely change. They needed to get early access out to gather feedback. Such details can follow later


More posts about Minthara needed!
Let's draw her, if there are artists who read this topic?

So cute on the screen, but about the hairstyle, Larians can improve it, but I would not say that she is to bad now. The hairstyle suits her personality and looks good if you don't find fault

[Linked Image]
Posted By: OneManArmy Re: Fan club of Minthara - 21/10/20 02:52 PM

Come on guys, there are a lot of people who like Mintara.
https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=709318#Post709318

Let's show that this topic deserves the title of mega thread section
Posted By: Vhaldez Re: Fan club of Minthara - 21/10/20 03:00 PM
Quote
Doesn't give you a reason, doesn't promise you a reward.


As Abits said in another thread, right now she feels like a quest giver with benefits. Every opportunity you have to explore her character is also one where she can and will kill you, or your party members become PTSD alkies. She does not have to "become good" but her willfull ignorance of her condition combined with the total lack of incentive she offers to follow her seems like she was written for jaluks to stumble upon her and drop the entire story for her. My human wizard would like to get at least one introspective question in before I betray and murder innocent people for no apparent gain, but no, she just tries to murder me.
Posted By: Soulcatcher30 Re: Fan club of Minthara - 21/10/20 05:42 PM
Yes, I feel like it would be nice if we had more dialogue with her to talk about Absolute and in a way bond, to make siding with her more organic. At any rate, I wish we have more interactions with her, peaceful and or romantic ones.
Maybe add some dialogue options for drow characters when talking to her, maybe pry as to why she became an outcast and use that to develop a stronger relationship with her.
Posted By: OneManArmy Re: Fan club of Minthara - 21/10/20 08:45 PM
[Linked Image] [Linked Image] [Linked Image] [Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image] [Linked Image] [Linked Image] [Linked Image]
Posted By: Zarna Re: Fan club of Minthara - 22/10/20 04:42 AM
Originally Posted by Soulcatcher30
I don't mind that she's not Lolth drow, in fact, I wish there were more non Loth drow around, like Vhaeraun drow. I just hope we might get to see her as a companion/follower, maybe continue the romance? What do you think?

Yes to all of this. Vhaeraun is one of my favourite deities in FR.
Even if Minthara cannot become a companion I am sure we haven't seen the last of her and hopefully we can learn more about her.
Posted By: Soulcatcher30 Re: Fan club of Minthara - 23/10/20 03:14 PM
Give me more screenshots of her.
Posted By: OneManArmy Re: Fan club of Minthara - 23/10/20 03:48 PM
Originally Posted by Soulcatcher30
Give me more screenshots of her.


[Linked Image]

Posted By: DumbleDorf Re: Fan club of Minthara - 23/10/20 03:51 PM
Shes pretty but shes evil and Im into men so I push her off a cliff or some such, haven't actually killed her yet or gone further than chatting to her.
Posted By: Soulcatcher30 Re: Fan club of Minthara - 23/10/20 04:02 PM
Cute
Posted By: OneManArmy Re: Fan club of Minthara - 23/10/20 04:04 PM

I think it would be a good idea to make collages with her for those who are good at Photoshop
Posted By: DumbleDorf Re: Fan club of Minthara - 23/10/20 04:20 PM
When is there ever going to be an RPG with the lure of working an evil sex god of a hunk?
Posted By: OneManArmy Re: Fan club of Minthara - 23/10/20 04:23 PM
Originally Posted by DumbleDorf
When is there ever going to be an RPG with the lure of working an evil sex god of a hunk?


We have not yet seen the goddess Absolute, but I want to serve Minthara, work with her and fight together, and not the Absolute primarily. It seems to me that Minthara's belief in the cult of the Absolute is very similar to Shadow Heart's belief in Shar, that is, it has some reasons but can be changed, no matter how fanatical she may seem at first glance


Perhaps we will even be presented with a choice under certain conditions - the evil-evil passing cult of the Absolute, the choice between the sexual goddess and the betrayal of Minthara's and the right to lead the army of the Absolute personally, or the neutral/evil or even good passing where we do not betray Minthara's, and work together for the Absolute/Against the absolute/for ourselves (the last point is the best)

I want at least one version of a happy ending, and not like it was with Viconia
Posted By: Syrek Re: Fan club of Minthara - 23/10/20 04:37 PM
Originally Posted by OneManArmy
Originally Posted by Soulcatcher30
Give me more screenshots of her.


[Linked Image]


I don't find her very attractive at all but screenshots are at least tolerable.
Please don't make her talk.
Her voice sounds like a fuckin Goblin whispering casual violence in your ear.
How charming.
Posted By: OneManArmy Re: Fan club of Minthara - 23/10/20 04:46 PM
Originally Posted by Syrek
Originally Posted by OneManArmy
Originally Posted by Soulcatcher30
Give me more screenshots of her.


[Linked Image]


I don't find her very attractive at all but screenshots are at least tolerable.
Please don't make her talk.
Her voice sounds like a fuckin Goblin whispering casual violence in your ear.
How charming.


I love her dominant voice and her hairstyle that gives her personality, many people do too. I think criticism and discussion about the voice of Minthara is primarily important for people who wants to hear this voice throughout the game, and not kill her at the first meeting
Posted By: Syrek Re: Fan club of Minthara - 23/10/20 05:08 PM
Originally Posted by OneManArmy

I love her dominant voice and her hairstyle that gives her personality, many people do too. I think criticism and discussion about the voice of Minthara is primarily important for people who wants to hear this voice throughout the game, and not kill her at the first meeting

I didn't kill her at the first meeting. But then she talked to me.
At the second meeting I sparta kicked her into the pit behind her table.
Posted By: OneManArmy Re: Fan club of Minthara - 23/10/20 05:11 PM
Originally Posted by Syrek
Originally Posted by OneManArmy

I love her dominant voice and her hairstyle that gives her personality, many people do too. I think criticism and discussion about the voice of Minthara is primarily important for people who wants to hear this voice throughout the game, and not kill her at the first meeting

I didn't kill her at the first meeting. But then she talked to me.
At the second meeting I sparta kicked her into the pit behind her table.


So her voice was the deciding factor that kept you from helping her and killing the tifflings?
Posted By: OneManArmy Re: Fan club of Minthara - 23/10/20 05:16 PM
Originally Posted by dmwyvern

I loved her voice! Felt the Voice Actor did a great job projecting a strong, mature (and let's face it, a little crazy) woman with this character. ^_^


from another topic about Minthara
Posted By: Syrek Re: Fan club of Minthara - 23/10/20 05:42 PM
Originally Posted by OneManArmy

So her voice was the deciding factor that kept you from helping her and killing the tifflings?

Not her voice by itself, but what she's saying with it.
I enjoy a good bad guy plot just as much as the next dude but she just comes across as cartoonishly evil.
I'm aware it's not technically her but whoever she gets her orders from, but they couldn't have found a more edgy way to deliver his wishes if they tried.

Helping her kill a bunch of refugees?
Why would I do that? I gain nothing from doing all that work.
So you say the Absolute will give me unlimited power if I do that?
I don't know about that, but punting his favourite drow down a hatch was surprisingly easy.
Can't be that much power that he gives his best buddies.
Posted By: OneManArmy Re: Fan club of Minthara - 23/10/20 06:00 PM
Originally Posted by Syrek
Originally Posted by OneManArmy

So her voice was the deciding factor that kept you from helping her and killing the tifflings?

Not her voice by itself, but what she's saying with it.
I enjoy a good bad guy plot just as much as the next dude but she just comes across as cartoonishly evil.
I'm aware it's not technically her but whoever she gets her orders from, but they couldn't have found a more edgy way to deliver his wishes if they tried.

Helping her kill a bunch of refugees?
Why would I do that? I gain nothing from doing all that work.
So you say the Absolute will give me unlimited power if I do that?
I don't know about that, but punting his favourite drow down a hatch was surprisingly easy.
Can't be that much power that he gives his best buddies.



I agree with you on this, there were quite a few topics on the forum that asked to make the evil passage more reasonable, and less stupid, to give the player reason to think about joining the cult of the absolute. These are only early access issues, it seems to me.


I even assume that this was done on purpose, in order to study the opinion of the players on how they see the dark side of power and use it in their work. Larian could not say "we are studying the reaction of players to an evil passage, we will persuade them to play for evil" and make all evil choices poorly worked out by chance
Posted By: Syrek Re: Fan club of Minthara - 23/10/20 06:22 PM
Originally Posted by OneManArmy

I agree with you on this, there were quite a few topics on the forum that asked to make the evil passage more reasonable, and less stupid, to give the player reason to think about joining the cult of the absolute. These are only early access issues, it seems to me.


I even assume that this was done on purpose, in order to study the opinion of the players on how they see the dark side of power and use it in their work. Larian could not say "we are studying the reaction of players to an evil passage, we will persuade them to play for evil" and make all evil choices poorly worked out by chance

They will absolutely have to change quite a lot about that plot because the "dark side" has to be tempting, that's the whole point.
And there has to be a whole lot of tempting in this case because they want you to
side with height challenged little shits to wipe out a refugee camp
which is just a cartoonishly evil act. And
at the victory party after that massacre, one of these little shits hands you the bloody and broken lute of that cute as a button Tiefling bard that is just about the only character in the game so far that hasn't been a total asshole to you, to really drive home the point of how much of a fuck up you are.

There has to be a SHITLOAD of incentive for me to do something like that.
Posted By: OneManArmy Re: Fan club of Minthara - 23/10/20 06:32 PM
Perhaps this bard girl should be place somewhere else, or should be able to escape - too many people will not want to kill her. Although this undoubtedly adds to the drama of the situation (I personally don't care), but now it is almost exclusively Minthara fans who help the goblins.
Female players even those who play as drow asked why they should do this. If Minthara were the main character, they would have done it, but so it's a little silly
Posted By: Vhaldez Re: Fan club of Minthara - 23/10/20 06:35 PM
Originally Posted by Syrek

They will absolutely have to change quite a lot about that plot because the "dark side" has to be tempting, that's the whole point.
And there has to be a whole lot of tempting in this case because they want you to
side with height challenged little shits to wipe out a refugee camp
which is just a cartoonishly evil act. And
at the victory party after that massacre, one of these little shits hands you the bloody and broken lute of that cute as a button Tiefling bard that is just about the only character in the game so far that hasn't been a total asshole to you, to really drive home the point of how much of a fuck up you are.

There has to be a SHITLOAD of incentive for me to do something like that.


Man, I feel like I discover another little nugget of "stay away from the evil path" every day...
Posted By: ArmouredHedgehog Re: Fan club of Minthara - 23/10/20 08:28 PM
Maybe Sven asked us to play evil because only a few would bother unless asked to do it.
Posted By: aVeide Re: Fan club of Minthara - 23/10/20 09:54 PM
I have searched and searched and searched. This douchbag of a goblin: Lookout Grush, was standing by her side hostile. I tried to so many old quicksaves. Something tipped him of. Had to kill the bunch without any conversation. Would love to know what tipped them off. Any ideas?
Posted By: OneManArmy Re: Fan club of Minthara - 23/10/20 10:22 PM
Originally Posted by aVeide
I have searched and searched and searched. This douchbag of a goblin: Lookout Grush, was standing by her side hostile. I tried to so many old quicksaves. Something tipped him of. Had to kill the bunch without any conversation. Would love to know what tipped them off. Any ideas?

Did you enter the goblin camp without a fight using a charisma chec?
If you do not kill the goblins, and do not let them know that you have killed the mind flayer, ignore the shaman, they will not be aggressive
Posted By: Kraydenvar Re: Fan club of Minthara - 24/10/20 12:02 AM
Originally Posted by Stahlhengst
[Edited out moderated post: nobody wants to see that... -v]

Damn son, calm down, its a fictional character. eek seek addressing these unhealthy anger issues
Posted By: The Composer Re: Fan club of Minthara - 24/10/20 12:35 AM
Indeed, it helps talking to a professional about it if you have troubles bottled up.

Reel it in here. Civil, calm and mature, or not at all.
Posted By: OneManArmy Re: Fan club of Minthara - 24/10/20 12:45 AM
Just let's pretend that there was no message above and continue the normal discussion.
Posted By: OneManArmy Re: Fan club of Minthara - 24/10/20 02:51 AM
I completed the game once more as a non-Lolth drow, helped a goblin scout escape the tiffling camp. In the first playthrough, I somehow missed this moment.

Minatara opened up from an even more cruel side than before and killed the scout, I liked that.

Goblins do not attack drow - a huge plus for an drow passage. But there is one moment, it is impossible to avoid a battle with them on the way to the Moon Towers, I would be glad not to fight the goblins and not show up in their camp before joining the absolute in the Moon Towers, but the road that I was shown passes by goblins anyway. Not good.

Interestingly, with the evil passage of Minthara, in any case, remains a member of the cult of the absolute, or can we start our own game for power? I have a theory that True Soul's tadpoles completely control them, but something went wrong with our party and they gained strength without external control, and that's why the Absolute wants to get rid of us. Perhaps Minatara does not know at all that she has a tadpole, and we can relieve her of the absolute control by keeping the tadpole like ours. Or rid her of the tadpole too.

I think it will be clear in the Moon Towers when we understand what the Absolute is.

The Mind Flayers have a legend about the "Adversary" - an unusual representative of the race who retained his personality before the transformation and plays his own game. Perhaps Lolth and Shar are also involved.

Most likely he is a strong psionic and a wizard, and in the Moon Towers will appear to us in the form of the Goddess Absolute, most likely in the same form in which he comes to us in dreams. This will be the illusion that we already saw in the first act. Thanks to his illusion, he managed to plant a tadpole on the goblin leaders without them noticing it.

Something went wrong with us, we have a tadpole and his power, but there is no direct control of the Absolute over us, and therefore we can reveal his deception. This is the main reason why he wants to destroy us, even if we are helping the goblins.

This is my guess

Run - 2 hours, third level. Yes, it seemed so much content for 1 passing, but in fact, you can go to Act 2 in 2 hours if you already know where what is, and how to act.
And again I had a bug, I did not take part in the battle, it ended on its own. The tiffling leader was killed immediately when he was knocked out while entering the druid camp, I killed many tieflings while saving the goblin scout, and broke the gate. Perhaps that's why. It's strange that tieflings have 0 reactions to the fact that they broke the door.

Topic for discussion:
Is Mintara chaotic evil or lawful evil? I think the second
Posted By: The Drow Warlock Re: Fan club of Minthara - 24/10/20 03:58 AM
One truly awesome thing imo is how divergent the story can become from the very first act. These two paths seem so far to represen such starkly different characters and gameplay - makes for enticing second or third runs. =)
Posted By: vel Re: Fan club of Minthara - 24/10/20 04:47 AM
Minthara's character was sadly shallow. Also her voice acting reminded me too much of the hag, grainy elderly smoker voice.

The sex scene was a mess of polygons with my female drow toon and even if that's fixed, it's not tasteful. It's easier to pull off sensuous without being too elicit. Someone somewhere probably had a nice fap but I try not to s**** where I eat.

Posted By: Soulcatcher30 Re: Fan club of Minthara - 24/10/20 08:17 AM
Originally Posted by vel
Minthara's character was sadly shallow. Also her voice acting reminded me too much of the hag, grainy elderly smoker voice.

The sex scene was a mess of polygons with my female drow toon and even if that's fixed, it's not tasteful. It's easier to pull off sensuous without being too elicit. Someone somewhere probably had a nice fap but I try not to s**** where I eat.



Nah, sex scene was fine. When animations are not bugging out. But maybe they could add more depth to her, especially if we see more of her later on, maybe as a companion.
Posted By: OneManArmy Re: Fan club of Minthara - 24/10/20 08:21 AM
Originally Posted by Soulcatcher30
Originally Posted by vel
Minthara's character was sadly shallow. Also her voice acting reminded me too much of the hag, grainy elderly smoker voice.

The sex scene was a mess of polygons with my female drow toon and even if that's fixed, it's not tasteful. It's easier to pull off sensuous without being too elicit. Someone somewhere probably had a nice fap but I try not to s**** where I eat.



Nah, sex scene was fine. When animations are not bugging out. But maybe they could add more depth to her, especially if we see more of her later on, maybe as a companion.


Should a kiss her boots before sex? At least optionally, when she asks the question "what do you want" - there is not enough option to serve and worship her, I'm sure she would have liked this answer. There is a theory that many of those who choose Minthara for romance think about something like this, two answers are too few options. The third is obviously missing

Yes, animation lags, early access issues
[Linked Image]
Posted By: Vhaldez Re: Fan club of Minthara - 24/10/20 10:10 AM
Originally Posted by OneManArmy

Should a kiss her boots before sex? At least optionally, when she asks the question "what do you want" - there is not enough option to serve and worship her, I'm sure she would have liked this answer. There is a theory that many of those who choose Minthara for romance think about something like this, two answers are too few options. The third is obviously missing



🧐 Excuse me sir, this is a Christian forum.
Posted By: OneManArmy Re: Fan club of Minthara - 24/10/20 10:43 AM
Posted By: cool-dude01 Re: Fan club of Minthara - 24/10/20 12:18 PM
I'll be disappointment if she isn't a companion at some point, because come full release, I fully intend to do a play-through where I am a lolthsworn edge-lord who geniunly falls in love with her, because she is a lolth Drow like he is, and enjoys violence and carnage as much as he does.
Posted By: OneManArmy Re: Fan club of Minthara - 24/10/20 12:52 PM
Originally Posted by cool-dude01
I'll be disappointment if she isn't a companion at some point, because come full release, I fully intend to do a play-through where I am a lolthsworn edge-lord who geniunly falls in love with her, because she is a lolth Drow like he is, and enjoys violence and carnage as much as he does.


it is not clear about her and Lolth, until we understand what the Absolute is and in what relationship it is with the spider goddess, it is too early to draw conclusions
Posted By: Diabolical Re: Fan club of Minthara - 24/10/20 04:11 PM
I love her character. What's more is that I like how unconventionally you meet her, especially if you are a Drow yourself. I feel like having a companion that represents each race would be amazing and Minthara is the #1 canditate for Drows imho.
Posted By: Stahlhengst Re: Fan club of Minthara - 24/10/20 04:46 PM
For the sake of argument if she came at me in a public situation, if I had to defend myself outside her apartment, I'm watching her through her window, if I have to shoot through a crowd of tieflings to defend myself - it's 2 am it's a self-defense situation - I'm not going to happy about the devastation but I will be happy that I've protected my own life.

I didn't want it to be like this.
Posted By: DumbleDorf Re: Fan club of Minthara - 24/10/20 05:00 PM
Originally Posted by Vhaldez
Originally Posted by OneManArmy

Should a kiss her boots before sex? At least optionally, when she asks the question "what do you want" - there is not enough option to serve and worship her, I'm sure she would have liked this answer. There is a theory that many of those who choose Minthara for romance think about something like this, two answers are too few options. The third is obviously missing



🧐 Excuse me sir, this is a Christian forum.


I'd like to post some gay boot licking pics right about now but then I would get into trouble.
Posted By: Stahlhengst Re: Fan club of Minthara - 24/10/20 05:04 PM
Originally Posted by DumbleDorf
I'd like to post some gay boot licking pics right about now


Nobody expected anything else.
Posted By: Osprey39 Re: Fan club of Minthara - 24/10/20 06:11 PM
OneManArmy, you have the most apt forum name ever. Still providing most of the bumps to your own thread I see :P
Posted By: ArmouredHedgehog Re: Fan club of Minthara - 24/10/20 06:35 PM
Better that than a new thread about the same things every day. Most users don't even look at page 2, they open a new thread right away.
Posted By: OneManArmy Re: Fan club of Minthara - 25/10/20 02:40 AM


I googled the creature servant of Minthara that should meet us on the way to the Moonrise Towers.
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Drider
[Linked Image]

Posted By: OneManArmy Re: Fan club of Minthara - 26/10/20 11:34 PM
Originally Posted by Soulcatcher30
Give me more screenshots of her.

screenshots part one (part two on the next page, did not fit in one message)

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Posted By: OneManArmy Re: Fan club of Minthara - 26/10/20 11:35 PM
Originally Posted by Soulcatcher30
Give me more screenshots of her.

screenshots part two (part on the previous page, did not fit in one message)

[Linked Image]

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Posted By: Svalr Re: Fan club of Minthara - 26/10/20 11:54 PM
I really liked her voice acting, her voice actress did a great job at making her sound creepy and on the edge.
I played a good Drow tho so I had to do a little Drowslaying xD.
Posted By: Soulcatcher30 Re: Fan club of Minthara - 27/10/20 07:28 AM
Nice screenshots. Yeah, she's not the sexiest drow tbh, but still, she's pretty cute and the only drow romance we have. Really, I think only major problem for me is the that the skin could be darker. Her hair IS messy, but she's a cultist in a goblin camp, so... Wish we can get her as a companion. Maybe also an explanation in depth for why she left other drow and maybe the option to sway her to our cause instead of Absolute.
Posted By: OneManArmy Re: Fan club of Minthara - 27/10/20 07:32 AM
Originally Posted by Soulcatcher30
Nice screenshots. Yeah, she's not the sexiest drow tbh, but still, she's pretty cute and the only drow romance we have. Really, I think only major problem for me is the that the skin could be darker. Her hair IS messy, but she's a cultist in a goblin camp, so... Wish we can get her as a companion. Maybe also an explanation in depth for why she left other drow and maybe the option to sway her to our cause instead of Absolute.

Mintara is the sexiest drow, why not? Minthara is great, no need to change it to some other new drow character
Although, of course, I would like to see more drow in the game, but not at the expense of it

By the way, the game has not yet given us an understanding of what could be "our cause", but I hope it will be something fun, optionally evil. A way to gain power and respect. Otherwise I will choose the cult of the absolute
Posted By: Zarna Re: Fan club of Minthara - 27/10/20 07:38 AM
Originally Posted by Soulcatcher30
Nice screenshots. Yeah, she's not the sexiest drow tbh, but still, she's pretty cute and the only drow romance we have. Really, I think only major problem for me is the that the skin could be darker. Her hair IS messy, but she's a cultist in a goblin camp, so... Wish we can get her as a companion. Maybe also an explanation in depth for why she left other drow and maybe the option to sway her to our cause instead of Absolute.

Pretty sure we will get more backstory on her since she is so interesting, and seems to be an important npc assuming she is left alive. As a companion would be nice but we will have to wait and see.
Posted By: OneManArmy Re: Fan club of Minthara - 27/10/20 07:49 AM
If he left alive .. haha, you can say the same about Will
Posted By: Kadajko Re: Fan club of Minthara - 27/10/20 11:02 AM
I wish there was an option to say: Hey Minthara, you know you have a tadpole in your head right? You don't believe me? Look into my mind!
Posted By: Nabbs Re: Fan club of Minthara - 28/10/20 01:00 AM
Love the character but as a drow I must kill her because she is weak in her belief that anything could be more powerful than Lolth.
Posted By: OneManArmy Re: Fan club of Minthara - 28/10/20 01:04 AM
Originally Posted by Nabbs
Love the character but as a drow I must kill her because she is weak in her belief that anything could be more powerful than Lolth.

I have a theory that the Absolute is Lolth's proxy, or at least they are allies. I have argued in this post:

https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=717682&Searchpage=1

Minthara obviously does not know about this or about the tadpole. Although who knows, we'll see.
So don't rush to kill Minthara wink It's not that simple with her.

Posted By: Zarna Re: Fan club of Minthara - 28/10/20 04:08 AM
Originally Posted by OneManArmy

I have a theory that the Absolute is Lolth's proxy, or at least they are allies. I have argued in this post:

Probably allies but I bet she is using this as a test as well.

Originally Posted by OneManArmy

Minthara obviously does not know about this or about the tadpole. Although who knows, we'll see.
So don't rush to kill Minthara wink It's not that simple with her.

Well I hope they change her dialogue so more of my characters would consider siding with her. As the player I find her interesting, currently there is not enough information given to imply her way is better.
Posted By: Vhaldez Re: Fan club of Minthara - 28/10/20 08:12 AM
Originally Posted by Kadajko
I wish there was an option to say: Hey Minthara, you know you have a tadpole in your head right? You don't believe me? Look into my mind!


The fact that there's not is such a weak point in the narrative, it's unreal.
Posted By: OneManArmy Re: Fan club of Minthara - 29/10/20 05:53 PM
There are hints of Minthara's deep personal drama in this scene, though it likely spoils the romance. Perhaps later she will tell us herself when she can trust us enough.

Posted By: OneManArmy Re: Fan club of Minthara - 30/10/20 06:19 PM
Characteristics of Minthara:
Race: Lolth Drow
Health: 57 hp
Armor class: 16
Standard speed: 12
Size: Medium
Weight: 50 kilograms

Skills

Strength: 15
Dexterity: 12
Stamina: 15
Intelligence: 12
Wisdom: 18
Charisma: 16

Skill bonus: +3
Initiative: +6

Underwear color: brown (I got a bug when I used the option to inspect the character)

Alignment: presumably Lawful Evil. Evil is beyond doubt, the law is loyalty to the absolute and the presence of a certain code of honor, judging by the dialogue when trying to kill the main character and spare him after.
Posted By: Firesnakearies Re: Fan club of Minthara - 30/10/20 06:21 PM
So far I've only killed her. But I'll do a just-be-evil-all-the-time-for-no-real-reason-but-for-the-sake-of-doing-an-"evil playthrough" playthrough next, and then I guess we'll be besties or something.
Posted By: Soulcatcher30 Re: Fan club of Minthara - 31/10/20 11:22 AM
Have there been any data mining stuff about Minthara?
Posted By: OneManArmy Re: Fan club of Minthara - 01/11/20 01:06 AM
Originally Posted by Soulcatcher30
Have there been any data mining stuff about Minthara?

+1 I'm interested too

https://baldursgate3.wiki.fextralife.com/Minthara

Minthara is a potential Companion in Baldur's Gate 3
Warrior Cleric and devote follower of "The Absolute", Minthara rallies his followers with force and a good amount of drow arrogance.
Where did they quote it from? This text is not in the game
Posted By: Soulcatcher30 Re: Fan club of Minthara - 12/11/20 04:14 PM
Lets revive it.
Posted By: Mezbarrena Re: Fan club of Minthara - 12/11/20 04:45 PM
She's fun character for sure. As a Lolth Eld Knight, my justification for not attacking her is "Why she turned her back to Lolth?" I am looking at it as. I am doing Lolth's will, what is stripping my Goddess of her Drow. I will find the root cause of it. Kill it and free all her subjects to serve under Lolth once again. So for now, she is only there for me to investigate!
Posted By: OneManArmy Re: Fan club of Minthara - 12/11/20 05:22 PM
Originally Posted by Mezbarrena
She's fun character for sure. As a Lolth Eld Knight, my justification for not attacking her is "Why she turned her back to Lolth?" I am looking at it as. I am doing Lolth's will, what is stripping my Goddess of her Drow. I will find the root cause of it. Kill it and free all her subjects to serve under Lolth once again. So for now, she is only there for me to investigate!


I think this is an option for the "chaotic evil" passage. Help Minthara deal with the Absolute, then betray her for Lolth, who wants to punish her for apostasy.

I like this option, it will appeal to both Lolth fans and Minthara fans. But in this case, I will help Minthara and get more trust and respect from her by protecting her from the clerics of Lolth. Together with Minthara we can be a good team and against everyone, including the cult of the Absolute who deceived her with a tadpole, clerics of Lolth, and good characters who will condemn our methods - that would be a lot of fun.

I think this is how the perfect path of "lawful evil" should be. This is the path that will allow you to combine honor and friendship, evil roleplay and personal gain. I would like this roleplay, and I really hope that Larian will make it possible.
Posted By: Finnius Re: Fan club of Minthara - 17/11/20 12:03 AM
I love her as well...too bad I have to slaughter all the Druids to get in her pants
Posted By: Soulcatcher30 Re: Fan club of Minthara - 17/11/20 08:14 AM
Originally Posted by Finnius
I love her as well...too bad I have to slaughter all the Druids to get in her pants


Yeah, I wish ''evil'' path was a bit more nuanced.
Posted By: OneManArmy Re: Fan club of Minthara - 17/11/20 10:06 AM
Originally Posted by Soulcatcher30
Originally Posted by Finnius
I love her as well...too bad I have to slaughter all the Druids to get in her pants


Yeah, I wish ''evil'' path was a bit more nuanced.



t would be nice if we could make Kagha an ally of Minthara in this route.
Or leave her friendly and neutral.
Posted By: Vhaldez Re: Fan club of Minthara - 17/11/20 11:54 AM
Originally Posted by OneManArmy
it would be nice if we could make Kagha an ally of Minthara in this route.
Or leave her friendly and neutral.
For that to happen Kagha and Olodan should not be an outside hostile party. We don't know for sure if they will become relevant again later but the druid storyline seems rather done and dusted post Act 1A, so we might not even find out on whose behalf Olodan was acting. (other than the shadow druid from BG2 who is mentioned in a lore note)
Posted By: Menzoberra Re: Fan club of Minthara - 18/11/20 08:11 AM
Hope we will get update with Menzoberranzan adventures for drow. And ofc with Minthara. :3
Posted By: PrivateRaccoon Re: Fan club of Minthara - 21/11/20 01:17 PM
Originally Posted by Finnius
I love her as well...too bad I have to slaughter all the Druids to get in her pants



Wow...that sentence sounds so carefreely spoken I don''t know what scares me the most. You for writing it, or me for speaking it out loudly in a carefree tone?

Momma, I don't like what this forum is doing to me.
Posted By: Soulcatcher30 Re: Fan club of Minthara - 24/11/20 01:28 PM
Originally Posted by PrivateRaccoon
Originally Posted by Finnius
I love her as well...too bad I have to slaughter all the Druids to get in her pants



Wow...that sentence sounds so carefreely spoken I don''t know what scares me the most. You for writing it, or me for speaking it out loudly in a carefree tone?

Momma, I don't like what this forum is doing to me.


What can you say, people do like that drow p.... They should still add one drow (male or female) romance/companion option if they are not going to add Minthara. At least that.
Posted By: OneManArmy Re: Fan club of Minthara - 24/11/20 03:19 PM
Originally Posted by Soulcatcher30
Originally Posted by PrivateRaccoon
Originally Posted by Finnius
I love her as well...too bad I have to slaughter all the Druids to get in her pants



Wow...that sentence sounds so carefreely spoken I don''t know what scares me the most. You for writing it, or me for speaking it out loudly in a carefree tone?

Momma, I don't like what this forum is doing to me.


What can you say, people do like that drow p.... They should still add one drow (male or female) romance/companion option if they are not going to add Minthara. At least that.


It will be sad, because they have already given the drow which we like, and this year we will get used to it. If they wanted to add another drow girl as a companion, they should have done no Minthara at all in Act 1 EA. It is so well designed and have a big potential..
Let there be two drow companions, okay, its nice. But one of them is Minthara
Posted By: OneManArmy Re: Fan club of Minthara - 03/12/20 04:54 AM
So we have a new patch.
I saw great dialogue with Minthara after trying to kill me, which I liked much more than what I saw in the first playthrough.

In the first playthrough, I chose Ilythid's ability, now I chose the charisma check. Quite romantic and promises a sequel.


At first I thought it was added in the patch, but this dialogue was in the game from the very beginning, in the first version and I just miss it. All this time I thought there was a big flaw, but it turned out that everything is fine there.
I just had to choose another dialogue (first time I was afraid to fail the charisma check and decided to act for sure)

:\
Posted By: Choosen of KEK Re: Fan club of Minthara - 03/12/20 08:26 AM
Looks like I lost quite a bit just sniping her from above. Jarlaxle's cousin, huh? Shame to waste such a character.
Posted By: Choosen of KEK Re: Fan club of Minthara - 03/12/20 08:34 AM
Originally Posted by Vhaldez
[quote=OneManArmy]🧐 Excuse me sir, this is a Christian forum.

D&D is objectively satanic. No real christian would ever touch the dice.
Posted By: TrollishMcTroll Re: Fan club of Minthara - 03/12/20 09:43 AM
I think she makes a pretty good corpse.
Posted By: Soulcatcher30 Re: Fan club of Minthara - 06/12/20 09:17 AM
Originally Posted by OneManArmy
So we have a new patch.
I saw great dialogue with Minthara after trying to kill me, which I liked much more than what I saw in the first playthrough.

In the first playthrough, I chose Ilythid's ability, now I chose the charisma check. Quite romantic and promises a sequel.


At first I thought it was added in the patch, but this dialogue was in the game from the very beginning, in the first version and I just miss it. All this time I thought there was a big flaw, but it turned out that everything is fine there.
I just had to choose another dialogue (first time I was afraid to fail the charisma check and decided to act for sure)

:\


Post some screenshots maybe.
Posted By: OneManArmy Re: Fan club of Minthara - 07/12/20 11:53 PM
Originally Posted by Soulcatcher30
Originally Posted by OneManArmy
So we have a new patch.
I saw great dialogue with Minthara after trying to kill me, which I liked much more than what I saw in the first playthrough.

In the first playthrough, I chose Ilythid's ability, now I chose the charisma check. Quite romantic and promises a sequel.


At first I thought it was added in the patch, but this dialogue was in the game from the very beginning, in the first version and I just miss it. All this time I thought there was a big flaw, but it turned out that everything is fine there.
I just had to choose another dialogue (first time I was afraid to fail the charisma check and decided to act for sure)

:\


Post some screenshots maybe.


5:00 charisma check



Also. The sentence "But you can rebel against the Absolute" also did not trigger an instant attack, as I suspected in the first playthrough. "I wish it were true," interesting.
Posted By: Fikoley Re: Fan club of Minthara - 08/12/20 09:06 AM
I definitly do not think she is the next companion option for us, she is so simple and in good lawful playtrought game doesn't even give you a chose to talk her, ı mean ı ve killed her easily with Lae'zel. And Did not think about talk her even one time. She was just a one of three bosses ı should slay for helping tieflings. Doesn't seems to me so important. At least in lawful playtrought. She has died for me forever and there is enough negative energy in my companions thanks to all expect Wyll and Gale. I think the next one should be much more fugitive or rebel kind. Look at the Lae Zel and Shadowheart, Shadowheart is so RELİGİOUS FANATIC and ILLITERATE, Lae Zel the another version of the same shit. They re both secterian. Only origin ı personally interest is the one of Astarion. He seems like the piggy in the middle. And observing his emotion waving is so satisfying. I personally think we need someone like Astarion.
Posted By: OneManArmy Re: Fan club of Minthara - 08/12/20 11:30 AM
Originally Posted by Fikoley
I definitly do not think she is the next companion option for us, she is so simple and in good lawful playtrought game doesn't even give you a chose to talk her, ı mean ı ve killed her easily with Lae'zel. And Did not think about talk her even one time. She was just a one of three bosses ı should slay for helping tieflings. Doesn't seems to me so important. At least in lawful playtrought. She has died for me forever and there is enough negative energy in my companions thanks to all expect Wyll and Gale. I think the next one should be much more fugitive or rebel kind. Look at the Lae Zel and Shadowheart, Shadowheart is so RELİGİOUS FANATIC and ILLITERATE, Lae Zel the another version of the same shit. They re both secterian. Only origin ı personally interest is the one of Astarion. He seems like the piggy in the middle. And observing his emotion waving is so satisfying. I personally think we need someone like Astarion.


Is there any point in discussing whether Minthara should become a companion on the evil path if you are not considering going through the evil path? There are characters on the evil path who also need to be killed, for example, Will. He is dead in an evil passage! This does not mean that he is not needed in the game for those who play the game differently.
Posted By: Kaptin Re: Fan club of Minthara - 08/12/20 05:35 PM
I'm waiting for paladin so I can pick oathbreaker and be an absolutely evil death knight for my neutral route I plan a neutral drow rogue assassin (based on Riddick) But for my death knight, i will me sure to torch druids precious tree hehe.
Posted By: OneManArmy Re: Fan club of Minthara - 08/12/20 07:03 PM
Originally Posted by Kaptin
I'm waiting for paladin so I can pick oathbreaker and be an absolutely evil death knight for my neutral route I plan a neutral drow rogue assassin (based on Riddick) But for my death knight, i will me sure to torch druids precious tree hehe.


A neutral root that is run by an evil hero, I thought it must be related to Kagha. What you say is an evil way
Posted By: Fikoley Re: Fan club of Minthara - 08/12/20 07:46 PM
Originally Posted by OneManArmy
Originally Posted by Fikoley
I definitly do not think she is the next companion option for us, she is so simple and in good lawful playtrought game doesn't even give you a chose to talk her, ı mean ı ve killed her easily with Lae'zel. And Did not think about talk her even one time. She was just a one of three bosses ı should slay for helping tieflings. Doesn't seems to me so important. At least in lawful playtrought. She has died for me forever and there is enough negative energy in my companions thanks to all expect Wyll and Gale. I think the next one should be much more fugitive or rebel kind. Look at the Lae Zel and Shadowheart, Shadowheart is so RELİGİOUS FANATIC and ILLITERATE, Lae Zel the another version of the same shit. They re both secterian. Only origin ı personally interest is the one of Astarion. He seems like the piggy in the middle. And observing his emotion waving is so satisfying. I personally think we need someone like Astarion.


Is there any point in discussing whether Minthara should become a companion on the evil path if you are not considering going through the evil path? There are characters on the evil path who also need to be killed, for example, Will. He is dead in an evil passage! This does not mean that he is not needed in the game for those who play the game differently.


I will go through the evil path. Just don't have time right now for this. I saw comments people talking about drow companion so ı declared my opinion about that.
Posted By: OneManArmy Re: Fan club of Minthara - 16/12/20 03:12 AM
Hopefully, Larian will announce Minthara as a companion as a Christmas present, or, as a last resort, confirm a full-fledged emotional love story so that there are many quests and content in romance with her.

The fate of the most charismatic female character in the game worries me very much, the pleasure of the game depends on it.
(the male most charismatic character is Astarion, but he is already a companion and everything is clear with him)
Posted By: Soulcatcher30 Re: Fan club of Minthara - 17/12/20 08:54 PM
Have to wait for updates in any case, most likely after holidays at this point.
Posted By: Omegaphallic Re: Fan club of Minthara - 19/12/20 04:31 AM
Originally Posted by ArmouredHedgehog
She is not a priestess of Lolth (unless the absolute is an invention of Lolth), but a priestess of the absolute. I guess designs for absolute Armor (except for a few goblin items) have not been finalized yet.
I also think that she is too weak for the role she plays in terms of level but

game files suggest a coming drow companion. If that is going to be Minthara it is understandable that she is only level 5.
Most of the world currently seems stuck at Lvl 5, a few stronger creatures would be manageable

I doubt it will be Minthara, I think all Companions start at level 1. I do think she will reappear in later chapters and will end up a camp follower eventually, but not a full companion.
Posted By: fylimar Re: Fan club of Minthara - 19/12/20 06:23 PM
I see no option but to kill her in my playthroughs, because siding with the goblins is from my perspective a stupid decision - and not only because I like playing Tieflings (and I like druids) - I mean, you have a cult of mentally unstable and very violent people. On the other hand you have a group of innocent refugees and mostly kindhearted druids. I'm not counting snake lady, because everyone makes it very clear, that she will have nothing more to say, when Halsin is back - so one reason more, to save that chap, to bring back a bit of stability to this region. Why would I join the murder cult? Even as an evil character ... I mean, I'm evil, not stupid. Things like that always backfire.

I could see Minthara as an either/or character between her and Wyll, because I don't see Wyll agree to siding with the psycho murder cult. But in my case it will be Wyll all the time, if they don't drastically change the quest, to make it more believable to help the goblins (other than the 'I want the sex scene with the drow lady'-argument).

Right now, the character and the cult has nothing to offer me. There has to be major rewriting of the whole questline to be done - think of the decision in Dragon Age Inquisition to help the templars or the mages - that was a decision, where you sit down and really weigh your pros and cons for every side. I didn't even think of that in this questline. Of course I'll help the refugees and the druids, of course I save Volo and that goblin prisoner can rot for all I care. And no questions ask, I'll kill the tree cult leaders.

I know, that I'm writing more about the cult than about Minthara, but to me, she is just another crazy cult member at the moment. I don't see anything, that would screm 'Yes, this is interesting companion material' to me.
Posted By: OneManArmy Re: Fan club of Minthara - 20/12/20 12:33 AM
More screenshots from Minthara!

[Linked Image from static1.srcdn.com]
[Linked Image from static2.srcdn.com]
[Linked Image from gamertweak.com]
[Linked Image from cdn.staticneo.com]
[Linked Image from pcinvasion.com]


Minthara by ShiroiShi (fan art)
[Linked Image from a.radikal.ru]
Posted By: Soulcatcher30 Re: Fan club of Minthara - 20/12/20 01:05 PM
Nice screenshots and nice fanart.
Posted By: Oruc Re: Fan club of Minthara - 21/12/20 09:17 PM
I like Minthara you can see why she went with the Absolute instead of Lolth considering she gets rather attached to you, but I prefer Sazza
Posted By: OneManArmy Re: Fan club of Minthara - 21/12/20 10:21 PM
Many people on Reddit also want Minthara to become a companion.
https://www.reddit.com/r/BaldursGate3/comments/j81vjo/romance_with_minthara_in_baldurs_gate_3/

kink with her
https://www.reddit.com/r/BaldursGat...only_one_who_wants_minthara_to_crush_my/


Baldur's Gate 3: Minthara is the Best Romance Option
https://gamerant.com/baldurs-gate-3-romance-options-best-minthara/

"While there still isn't a ton of information available yet about Minthara's backstory and what drove her to pursue a path of evil, the parallels between her and other conflicted characters like the Yennefer from the Witcher series are apparent. Of course, Minthara is clearly evil enough to condone mass murder, but there are sure to be plenty of players who will be interested to see if she will get a redemption arc, or if she has some tragic past. Obviously, some characters are just plain evil and offer no reasoning for choosing darkness, but that may appeal to some players too."


This is what I wrote about too. I think she has the potential to surprise the player. Show her good side if we become close to her - the ability for friendship, love, self-sacrifice and all that. But it must be difficult to achieve. In Lolth drow society you always expect to get a knife in the back, trusting someone is difficult.
Posted By: Kadajko Re: Fan club of Minthara - 22/12/20 12:33 AM
Originally Posted by OneManArmy
Show her good side if we become close to her - the ability for friendship, love, self-sacrifice and all that.

You want to show her that after you murder a bunch of kids to get close to her? Lolol?
Posted By: OneManArmy Re: Fan club of Minthara - 22/12/20 01:05 AM
Originally Posted by Kadajko
Originally Posted by OneManArmy
Show her good side if we become close to her - the ability for friendship, love, self-sacrifice and all that.

You want to show her that after you murder a bunch of kids to get close to her? Lolol?

Yes, goblins - cannon fodder and minions, druids and tieflings - enemies of the Absolute who were ordered to destroy for some incomprehensible purpose. But the main character may well become important to her, and with the main character she will be completely different.

I think a much more needs to be done for this, and it will not necessarily be associated with evil.

Perhaps the Absolute will order us to kill Minthara in order to punish her for failure and take her place, and the main character will not do this, moreover, he will also protect her from the clerics of Lolth who also want to punish her for her betrayal. Add flowers and nice words to that. After that, she must understand something.

I would like Minthara to be available as a companion even if we are not helping the goblins, just under different circumstances, for example, if the main character takes her prisoner and then learns more about her background (to beat the redemption arc). If she joined the Absolute to avoid Lolth's cruelty, then perhaps she just didn't meet the drow Eilistraee? She is too interesting and charismatic character, and Larian needs to devote more time to her.

But in any case, this decision will be made by Larian - how exactly the Minthara content will look in the game, and what decisions can be made. I would like everything and a lot
Posted By: Kadajko Re: Fan club of Minthara - 22/12/20 01:17 AM
Originally Posted by OneManArmy
Originally Posted by Kadajko
Originally Posted by OneManArmy
Show her good side if we become close to her - the ability for friendship, love, self-sacrifice and all that.

You want to show her that after you murder a bunch of kids to get close to her? Lolol?

Yes, goblins - cannon fodder and minions, druids and tieflings - enemies of the Absolute who were ordered to destroy for some incomprehensible purpose. But the main character may well become important to her, and with the main character she will be completely different.

I think a much more needs to be done for this, and it will not necessarily be associated with evil.

Perhaps the Absolute will order us to kill Minthara in order to punish her for failure and take her place, and the main character will not do this, moreover, he will also protect her from the clerics of Lolth who also want to punish her for her betrayal. Add flowers and nice words to that. After that, she must understand something.

I would like Minthara to be available as a companion even if we are not helping the goblins, just under different circumstances, for example, if the main character takes her prisoner and then learns more about her background (to beat the redemption arc). If she joined the Absolute to avoid Lolth's cruelty, then perhaps she just didn't meet the drow Eilistraee? She is too interesting and charismatic character, and Larian needs to devote more time to her.

But in any case, this decision will be made by Larian - how exactly the Minthara content will look in the game, and what decisions can be made. I would like everything and a lot

OK, I get it, you don't want her to be more friendly and trusting, you want her to be more friendly and trusting towards YOU. Yes, that's feasible. Evil characters actually often make more loyal friends and love partners, as they don't have other distractions to weight against your relationship.

Personally though, tired of sob stories and traumas, I am hungry for characters that are self-sufficient and well adjusted, thought, unfortunately, after reading her mind, there is a very big chance that it won't be the case with her.
Posted By: OneManArmy Re: Fan club of Minthara - 22/12/20 04:45 AM
Originally Posted by Kadajko
Originally Posted by OneManArmy
[quote=Kadajko][quote=OneManArmy]

OK, I get it, you don't want her to be more friendly and trusting, you want her to be more friendly and trusting towards YOU. Yes, that's feasible. Evil characters actually often make more loyal friends and love partners, as they don't have other distractions to weight against your relationship.

Personally though, tired of sob stories and traumas, I am hungry for characters that are self-sufficient and well adjusted, thought, unfortunately, after reading her mind, there is a very big chance that it won't be the case with her.

Yes exactly smile

All self-sufficient characters have their own secrets. She looks like this in public, wants to seem strong, because she doesn't trust anyone.

Make it so that the drow who is used to deception and betrayal in Menzoberranzan fell in love with the main character and began to trust him for real - is a great challenge. Make her admit to herself that she NEEDS the main character, and it matters more than Lolth or Absolute. Difficult, will take a long time, but I really want to complete it! I think when this happens we will have the opportunity to get to know Minthara from the other side.
And maybe (optionally) slightly changed her worldview like Viconia

I think the romance with Minthara will be one of the best in video game history if the developers get it right. They've already done better than Dragon Age and Mass Effect combined.
Posted By: Kadajko Re: Fan club of Minthara - 22/12/20 04:38 PM
Originally Posted by OneManArmy
She looks like this in public, wants to seem strong, because she doesn't trust anyone.

I agree with what you say in general, but I don't want her to SEEM strong, I want her to BE strong. Too many ''hard on the outside, soft on the inside'' female characters nowadays, I want someone who is tough on the inside too, but this is just my personal preference. That quote of hers ''I never NEEDED anyone, but I WANT you'' really got me, that is the kind of character I would love to romance.
Posted By: OneManArmy Re: Fan club of Minthara - 22/12/20 05:19 PM
Originally Posted by Kadajko
Originally Posted by OneManArmy
She looks like this in public, wants to seem strong, because she doesn't trust anyone.

I agree with what you say in general, but I don't want her to SEEM strong, I want her to BE strong. Too many ''hard on the outside, soft on the inside'' female characters nowadays, I want someone who is tough on the inside too, but this is just my personal preference. That quote of hers ''I never NEEDED anyone, but I WANT you'' really got me, that is the kind of character I would love to romance.

Yes, this quote ...

I think that she will say "I need you" after many other events where she can make sure that she can trust the main character. After one day of dating, it would be strange to hear something else.

And yet, the quote can be interpreted in the literal sense, and in the sense that a strong Minthara does not want to show her real feelings because love is pain.

I think she is strong both inside and outside, but every strong person has his weak points, which only a select few know about. In the first act, the main character is not the chosen one, but the candidate on the long way to this
Posted By: Kadajko Re: Fan club of Minthara - 22/12/20 05:58 PM
Originally Posted by OneManArmy
Yes, this quote ...

I think that she will say "I need you" after many other events where she can make sure that she can trust the main character. After one day of dating, it would be strange to hear something else.

And yet, the quote can be interpreted in the literal sense, and in the sense that a strong Minthara does not want to show her real feelings because love is pain.

I think she is strong both inside and outside, but every strong person has his weak points, which only a select few know about. In the first act, the main character is not the chosen one, but the candidate on the long way to this

No.. that hit me a lot deeper on a philosophical level. It's not a lack of commitment, she lets you go and helps you, risking wrath of the Absolute, also sets a condition that you belong to her now and she in turn belongs to you, that is serious. The fact that your minds connected, hell knows how much that means and how much you saw, and if that one night was more quality time than many months of dating, only problem here is that your characters personality could be quite different, but it could be a headcannon that makes sense.

The fact that she wants you but doesn't need you is good, it's a luxury of choice, of free will due to the nature of being a self-sufficient individual. She doesn't need anything from you, she just wants you. Unless you mean ''need'' in the sense that the relationship with you specifically is so good that you would rather die than continue living without said relationship, so the relationship is needed for you to continue living, aka Romeo&Juliet.
Posted By: auburn2 Re: Fan club of Minthara - 29/12/20 06:10 PM
Originally Posted by OneManArmy
Originally Posted by Nabbs
Love the character but as a drow I must kill her because she is weak in her belief that anything could be more powerful than Lolth.
I have a theory that the Absolute is Lolth's proxy, or at least they are allies. I have argued in this post:

What exactly is an ally of Lolth? I don't think the queen of Chaos really has any real allies.

I see more evidence that the absolute is allied with netherese, Mind Flayers or Bhaal.
Posted By: CopperCrate Re: Fan club of Minthara - 30/12/20 04:17 AM
Minthara is too much. Ordering the slaughter of innocent refugees is one thing, but when I find you trying to kill me and your defence is "I would totally have married you in another life but god said no." that's just a huge red flag. The whole Bond movie sleeping-with-then-killing-me I get, goes with the territory. But you need to slow down on the concubine talk, even if it's just speculative. We literally just met each other.
Posted By: Drath Malorn Re: Fan club of Minthara - 30/12/20 07:29 AM
Drows are very sentimental and sweet-heart people. It is known.

The inspiration for their society was these characters in teenager novels and mangas aimed for girls. Love happens at first sight or not at all. Casual sex is unheard of.

Note you can use the Drows' sentimentality against them. When Minthara wants to kill you, you can say "but I love you" and she changes her mind.
Posted By: Soulcatcher30 Re: Fan club of Minthara - 30/12/20 09:36 AM
Originally Posted by Drath Malorn
you can say "but I love you" and she changes her mind.

Cute drow murderess.
Posted By: Kadajko Re: Fan club of Minthara - 30/12/20 10:34 AM
Originally Posted by CopperCrate
Minthara is too much. Ordering the slaughter of innocent refugees is one thing, but when I find you trying to kill me and your defence is "I would totally have married you in another life but god said no." that's just a huge red flag. The whole Bond movie sleeping-with-then-killing-me I get, goes with the territory. But you need to slow down on the concubine talk, even if it's just speculative. We literally just met each other.

She said that she saw enough when you opened your mind, we don't know how much she saw but it could be a Lot. The only problem, like I said previously, she seems to like you regardless of your personality, regardless of any choices you've made.
Posted By: Kadajko Re: Fan club of Minthara - 30/12/20 10:35 AM
Originally Posted by Drath Malorn
Drows are very sentimental and sweet-heart people. It is known.

The inspiration for their society was these characters in teenager novels and mangas aimed for girls. Love happens at first sight or not at all. Casual sex is unheard of.

Note you can use the Drows' sentimentality against them. When Minthara wants to kill you, you can say "but I love you" and she changes her mind.

What about that Drow in bg2 that is horny and orders you to have sex with her or tries to kill you if you refuse?
Posted By: CopperCrate Re: Fan club of Minthara - 30/12/20 11:27 AM
Originally Posted by Drath Malorn
Drows are very sentimental and sweet-heart people. It is known.

The inspiration for their society was these characters in teenager novels and mangas aimed for girls. Love happens at first sight or not at all. Casual sex is unheard of.

Note you can use the Drows' sentimentality against them. When Minthara wants to kill you, you can say "but I love you" and she changes her mind.

BG3=Dating Simulator confirmed
Posted By: OneManArmy Re: Fan club of Minthara - 30/12/20 05:33 PM
I didn’t know that the drow were not only cruel, but also sentimental, but after that I began to love the drow even more!

It is so touching and sweet when Minthara reciprocated and did not kill the Main Character, it is good to know that she is capable of love.
Drow trust is hard to gain, but so much the nicer

Such love and friendship is stronger than classical love and friendship, I would not be surprised if, in the end of the game, with MC romance with Minthara, she is ready to sacrifice her life for the main character, and before she dies, she remembers how she tried to kill us and says something very romantic

(but I don't want her to die)
Posted By: CopperCrate Re: Fan club of Minthara - 30/12/20 06:23 PM
Originally Posted by Kadajko
Originally Posted by CopperCrate
Minthara is too much. Ordering the slaughter of innocent refugees is one thing, but when I find you trying to kill me and your defence is "I would totally have married you in another life but god said no." that's just a huge red flag. The whole Bond movie sleeping-with-then-killing-me I get, goes with the territory. But you need to slow down on the concubine talk, even if it's just speculative. We literally just met each other.

She said that she saw enough when you opened your mind, we don't know how much she saw but it could be a Lot. The only problem, like I said previously, she seems to like you regardless of your personality, regardless of any choices you've made.

Yeah, the relations I've had with her are still too quick and too shallow. I'm sure they'll punch the character up in terms of both dialogue and visuals, but she's really not in the same league as Lae and SH. We have our evils, and Karlach's the most likely next companion, and her whole "Gonna paint Baldur's Gate red with the blood of those who wronged me" doesn't strike me as all that light side of the Force. Can we get a female Dale Cooper or something?
Posted By: spectralhunter Re: Fan club of Minthara - 30/12/20 06:37 PM
Originally Posted by OneManArmy
It is so touching and sweet when Minthara reciprocated and did not kill the Main Character, it is good to know that she is capable of love.

Yeah because a healthy relationship is always wondering why your partner didn’t kill you. :P

I jest.

I don’t understand why people like her. Minthara is the epitome of evil. She wants power and control and is willing to destroy anything or anyone to achieve it. I understand choosing her side playing evil characters but objectively she’s awful.

But then again a lot of people just want to see pixelated nekkid bodies and you got to see hers which is probably why she’s so popular.
Posted By: Kadajko Re: Fan club of Minthara - 30/12/20 06:51 PM
Originally Posted by spectralhunter
I don’t understand why people like her.

Everybody has their own reasons. Personally she got me with two lines:

1) ''I've never needed anyone, but I want you.''

2) ''I give you your life on the understanding that you belong to me now, and I to you.''

Always dreamed of romancing a character like that, never met one before in any game. For that kind of romance I'll happily slaughter those kids.
Posted By: spectralhunter Re: Fan club of Minthara - 30/12/20 07:12 PM
Originally Posted by Kadajko
Originally Posted by spectralhunter
I don’t understand why people like her.

Everybody has their own reasons. Personally she got me with two lines:

1) ''I've never needed anyone, but I want you.''

2) ''I give you your life on the understanding that you belong to me now, and I to you.''

Always dreamed of romancing a character like that, never met one before in any game. For that kind of romance I'll happily slaughter those kids.

I’ve never watched Twilight or saw any of the movies but those things seem like something I’d find in Twilight.

I don’t understand giving up your own morality to satisfy your need for a romance. As I said, I understand from an evil role play perspective but not when I am trying to play a decent or good character.
Posted By: Kadajko Re: Fan club of Minthara - 30/12/20 07:29 PM
Originally Posted by spectralhunter
I’ve never watched Twilight or saw any of the movies but those things seem like something I’d find in Twilight.

Sure, why not, Twilight did quite a few things right ( for my taste ) when it comes to romance.

Originally Posted by spectralhunter
I don’t understand giving up your own morality to satisfy your need for a romance.

It's the same direction of need for companionship, you just substitute one for the other.

Originally Posted by spectralhunter
As I said, I understand from an evil role play perspective but not when I am trying to play a decent or good character.

It is a romance for evil characters, yes, since without metagaming you will never see it to begin with if you are playing a good character.
Posted By: TheOnlyRealTav Re: Fan club of Minthara - 03/01/21 04:14 AM
Originally Posted by spectralhunter
Originally Posted by OneManArmy
It is so touching and sweet when Minthara reciprocated and did not kill the Main Character, it is good to know that she is capable of love.

Yeah because a healthy relationship is always wondering why your partner didn’t kill you. :P

I jest.

I don’t understand why people like her. Minthara is the epitome of evil. She wants power and control and is willing to destroy anything or anyone to achieve it. I understand choosing her side playing evil characters but objectively she’s awful.

But then again a lot of people just want to see pixelated nekkid bodies and you got to see hers which is probably why she’s so popular.


Honestly, even for what we were shown so far, her character development is pretty complex.
SPOILERS BELOW


- She comes from a evil society, from noble house (Bae)nre (no pun intended, totally) where showing good emotions/actions is going to get you in big trouble. Abadoning the official faith in Lolth is easy way to put yourself in danger in Underdark and even if you escape, there is no guarantee that you will be safe from worshippers of Lolth. Everyone is taught to act evil, backstab each other, betray the friends etc.)
- Dialogue with Minthara indicates, that she despises the cruelty of Lolth, which is probably the reason why she has left the Underdark (and she joined the Absolute cult to protect herself, looks like)
- She is not without doubts in the Absolute, as indicated by the dialogue with her selecting proper dialogue option after the talk in the camp (she responds to you, saying that she wishes that it would be true, that she could resist the Absolute)
- If you treat her well, when she does come to presumably kill your player character after the night, she is full of conflict, regret, sadness and it's obvious that she is forced to do what she doesnt't really want to happen. Besides, persuading her is a guaranteed success, on 2 saves, the rolls were 1 without any buffs and 5 when I had +4 buff to persuasion via effect, so it indicates that she actually doesn't want anything bad to happen to you. As the conversation with her goes forward, she shows that she is genuinely worried about you, that she does care about your character and is willing to risk her position/life by letting you go, as she is defying the order clearly given by her superiors and trusts you, that you won't come back to Goblin camp (as this would put her in big troubles)
- She depises the backstabbing that is everywhere in the drow society, as it caused her to lose family members, friends and even loved ones.
- Her mind is full of fear, especially because of her past, where she expected a knife in the back every day. In other words, she is very afraid of dying and considers her life to be very valuable ("Goblins are expendable, I am not")
- In one of dialogues, it is indicated that her cruel behaviour towards her subordinates is reasoned with ("the need for strong hand in leadership, or they will disperse"), as she leads really simple creatures (goblins, ogres, etc) who likely only accept authority from someone stronger than them.
- One person genuinely trusting and caring about her -> PC was more than enough to show than she can show mercy, trust others, love them, care about them etc. Judging from where she came, it is understandable that she would have big problems with any of actions described above. Yet, she did change and it's very likely that it will go further.
- Voice acting and mimics, especially during the whole dialogue in camp, are insanely well done. You can see how much does she care/depise our PC, depending on your actions.



Based on those points, I could describe her as a tragic villain, who is acting evil because of her past and upgringing, although she is capable of being redeemed as shown by pretty big change already. Her current alignment is Lawful Evil, but she does show a huge possibility of it transforming into Lawful Neutral or even Good. Seeing that she isn't completely evil or without doubt humanizes her to great degree and that's why I find her character interesting.
Posted By: OneManArmy Re: Fan club of Minthara - 03/01/21 07:42 AM
Originally Posted by TheOnlyRealTav
Originally Posted by spectralhunter
Originally Posted by OneManArmy
It is so touching and sweet when Minthara reciprocated and did not kill the Main Character, it is good to know that she is capable of love.

Yeah because a healthy relationship is always wondering why your partner didn’t kill you. :P

I jest.

I don’t understand why people like her. Minthara is the epitome of evil. She wants power and control and is willing to destroy anything or anyone to achieve it. I understand choosing her side playing evil characters but objectively she’s awful.

But then again a lot of people just want to see pixelated nekkid bodies and you got to see hers which is probably why she’s so popular.


Honestly, even for what we were shown so far, her character development is pretty complex.
SPOILERS BELOW


- She comes from a evil society, from noble house (Bae)nre (no pun intended, totally) where showing good emotions/actions is going to get you in big trouble. Abadoning the official faith in Lolth is easy way to put yourself in danger in Underdark and even if you escape, there is no guarantee that you will be safe from worshippers of Lolth. Everyone is taught to act evil, backstab each other, betray the friends etc.)
- Dialogue with Minthara indicates, that she despises the cruelty of Lolth, which is probably the reason why she has left the Underdark (and she joined the Absolute cult to protect herself, looks like)
- She is not without doubts in the Absolute, as indicated by the dialogue with her selecting proper dialogue option after the talk in the camp (she responds to you, saying that she wishes that it would be true, that she could resist the Absolute)
- If you treat her well, when she does come to presumably kill your player character after the night, she is full of conflict, regret, sadness and it's obvious that she is forced to do what she doesnt't really want to happen. Besides, persuading her is a guaranteed success, on 2 saves, the rolls were 1 without any buffs and 5 when I had +4 buff to persuasion via effect, so it indicates that she actually doesn't want anything bad to happen to you. As the conversation with her goes forward, she shows that she is genuinely worried about you, that she does care about your character and is willing to risk her position/life by letting you go, as she is defying the order clearly given by her superiors and trusts you, that you won't come back to Goblin camp (as this would put her in big troubles)
- She depises the backstabbing that is everywhere in the drow society, as it caused her to lose family members, friends and even loved ones.
- Her mind is full of fear, especially because of her past, where she expected a knife in the back every day. In other words, she is very afraid of dying and considers her life to be very valuable ("Goblins are expendable, I am not")
- In one of dialogues, it is indicated that her cruel behaviour towards her subordinates is reasoned with ("the need for strong hand in leadership, or they will disperse"), as she leads really simple creatures (goblins, ogres, etc) who likely only accept authority from someone stronger than them.
- One person genuinely trusting and caring about her -> PC was more than enough to show than she can show mercy, trust others, love them, care about them etc. Judging from where she came, it is understandable that she would have big problems with any of actions described above. Yet, she did change and it's very likely that it will go further.
- Voice acting and mimics, especially during the whole dialogue in camp, are insanely well done. You can see how much does she care/depise our PC, depending on your actions.



Based on those points, I could describe her as a tragic villain, who is acting evil because of her past and upgringing, although she is capable of being redeemed as shown by pretty big change already. Her current alignment is Lawful Evil, but she does show a huge possibility of it transforming into Lawful Neutral or even Good. Seeing that she isn't completely evil or without doubt humanizes her to great degree and that's why I find her character interesting.

Thank you so much! You wrote what I wanted to convey, but I was too lazy to write a lot. Hopefully the developers will reveal her character even better and give a lot of Minthara content, they are in the right direction.

Minthara is a complex personality, and it would be nice if in a "good" passage you could leave her alive and interact with her. It would be very strange to change her alignment after we went the evil way and committed the genocide of the Druid grove, then it seems logical to continue playing for Law evil. The Law Evil is very pleasant to play, unlike chaotic evil. But I want to romance her both as an evil hero and as good, with different playthroughs and different Minthara content. I want more players to get to know Minthara better, not just those who play for evil.

She can become the most popular companion and one of the best characters in RPG video games if Larian does everything right.
Posted By: Yawgmoth Re: Fan club of Minthara - 05/01/21 05:48 PM
@OneManArmy

Hello just recenlty joined the forum, moslty i'm lurker and not very vocal, but i'm a great fan of Minthara like you! My love for Drow's romance started with Viconia into Bg and i'm happy to see Larian gave us a chance to have properly Drow Romance for us.

I hope they will make her a full companion later in the game and i hope you can finally give a full evil playthrough instead of Bg2 where you often were forced to get some good choices.

Also in the first run i miss the whole romance and i replayed it expecially for it because in the game you have 0 reasons to join the whole Minthara plan except for fall in love her madly at first sight and start doing mindlessly her biddings.

I hope they will give us more reasons to follow her at the start
Posted By: Capt.Wells Re: Fan club of Minthara - 05/01/21 06:36 PM
I've been slowly working through my evil playthrough to score the romance with Minthara and only just recently wiped out the Druid Grove to win her over during the party back at my camp. Boy, the devs sure poured their heart and soul into that rather spicy night with her. I approve!

Funny too how those scenes got finished way before the pc's own companion romances!

Anyway, I do like all of the speculations herein about Minthara's conflicted nature and while I highly doubt that she will be added as a full companion during the completed version of the game, I would very much like that to be the case.
Posted By: Nyloth Re: Fan club of Minthara - 05/01/21 06:56 PM
Originally Posted by Capt.Wells
I've been slowly working through my evil playthrough to score the romance with Minthara and only just recently wiped out the Druid Grove to win her over during the party back at my camp. Boy, the devs sure poured their heart and soul into that rather spicy night with her. I approve!

Funny too how those scenes got finished way before the pc's own companion romances!

Anyway, I do like all of the speculations herein about Minthara's conflicted nature and while I highly doubt that she will be added as a full companion during the completed version of the game, I would very much like that to be the case.

Why not? I'm pretty sure Halsin will be our companion, but if you choose evil way, then Minthara should be with you instead of Halsin.
Posted By: TheOnlyRealTav Re: Fan club of Minthara - 06/01/21 01:40 AM
I wrote this in other thread, but it applies to same question, so I decide to take this part of the post here as well.

- Minthara if looted, just like companions loses all the equipment and the change is visible on the model. (loses the shield/armor/weapon)
- There is an romance option for her. (currently only an option for companions, might change in the future)
- Has a tadpole in her head, just like rest of companions so far, while still having possible friendly-ending interactions which hint further co-operation (this might not be true in the future).
- I have read that in game files one of companions in hinted to be a drow.
- Wiki displays her as a potential companion
- Probably will be possible to recruit late act 1/early act 2 if she survives, won't be possible to recruit as soon as others
Source
https://steamcommunity.com/app/1086940/discussions/0/2969520311927202564/
Above for drow companion, with a bit of other information regarding possible companions, one of them being the poor unlucky windmill gnome.
https://baldursgate3.wiki.fextralife.com/Minthara
Link for wiki is above

Seeing the positive reaction of people both towards her and Halsin, besides those things mentioned above, makes it even more likely.
As for the conflicted nature, while she is definitely (initially) an evil character, she does have a potential to either become someone better or even worse than before.
If you do the romance story with her,
You can deduce that the whole party and the spending the night together part was her just being sent to kill the Player Character, homever she can't really bring herself to do it (100% success persuasion check, even without tadpole power) and reacts in completely opposite way, selflessly helping you, while putting herself de facto in a tough situation, would you want to expose the fact that she did help you. When someone taught since early years to not trust anyone, living in danger and without any real friends for years and apparently liking prestige, power so much decides to help you, in such a way, you know that there is someone else under all of this persona shown to you. Even if it's deep, really deep inside and it if it takes time for it to show.

In older Dungeons and Dragons game, Neverwinter Nights:Hordes of the Underdark, you could have a drow companion - Nathyrra, who was a redeemed Red Sister (elite drow assassins sworn to serve the Valsharess). She also, until a specific point, was definitely evil character, until something broke her (in that case, the mercy and the good of the Seer). We need to remember than many of the drows act evil simply because of how big impact their society, upbringing and religion has on them. They aren't born merciless and traitorous. If someone dedicates to show them that they can be better, resulting in a huge change (or they can become even more evil, obviously it's not one sided).

So there is sense for her to still survive the "good" storyline. If we have an option to spare her after the siege battle.
Posted By: Black_Elk Re: Fan club of Minthara - 06/01/21 02:31 AM
I'm hoping that NPCs like Minthara or Halsin or Sazza are the actual model for non-companions and how they will be introduced in the game. The way Lae'zel and Shadowheart are introduced in the prologue and then right at the beginning on the beach seems reasonably well done, a couple interactions. Wylls introduction at the gate is kind of camp, but brings him into the storyline. Gale and Astarion I think both feel a bit forced in the way they are introduced. The way the dialogue is written and how the cinematics play out, Gale and Astarion could both come into the story later I think, rather than immediately.

I'm guess a Ranger companion will materialize, since its the only class currently available for the PC but that doesn't have a companion yet. Halfling might work for that, though I'd like to see a human female for balance since we already have Gale and Wyll as humans.

Minthara would be a good alt for Shadowheart, both elves-ish and clerics, especially if Minthara was more STR/Con oriented for heavier armors and tank up battlepriestess mode, so its not just a rehash of Viconia from BG1/2.
Posted By: Warlocke Re: Fan club of Minthara - 06/01/21 03:02 AM
Originally Posted by Black_Elk
I'm hoping that NPCs like Minthara or Halsin or Sazza are the actual model for non-companions and how they will be introduced in the game. The way Lae'zel and Shadowheart are introduced in the prologue and then right at the beginning on the beach seems reasonably well done, a couple interactions. Wylls introduction at the gate is kind of camp, but brings him into the storyline. Gale and Astarion I think both feel a bit forced in the way they are introduced. The way the dialogue is written and how the cinematics play out, Gale and Astarion could both come into the story later I think, rather than immediately.

I'm guess a Ranger companion will materialize, since its the only class currently available for the PC but that doesn't have a companion yet. Halfling might work for that, though I'd like to see a human female for balance since we already have Gale and Wyll as humans.

Minthara would be a good alt for Shadowheart, both elves-ish and clerics, especially if Minthara was more STR/Con oriented for heavier armors and tank up battlepriestess mode, so its not just a rehash of Viconia from BG1/2.

Ranger NPC / preset player character is Minsc.
Posted By: DragonMaster69 Re: Fan club of Minthara - 07/01/21 12:53 AM
Originally Posted by Warlocke
Originally Posted by Black_Elk
I'm hoping that NPCs like Minthara or Halsin or Sazza are the actual model for non-companions and how they will be introduced in the game. The way Lae'zel and Shadowheart are introduced in the prologue and then right at the beginning on the beach seems reasonably well done, a couple interactions. Wylls introduction at the gate is kind of camp, but brings him into the storyline. Gale and Astarion I think both feel a bit forced in the way they are introduced. The way the dialogue is written and how the cinematics play out, Gale and Astarion could both come into the story later I think, rather than immediately.

I'm guess a Ranger companion will materialize, since its the only class currently available for the PC but that doesn't have a companion yet. Halfling might work for that, though I'd like to see a human female for balance since we already have Gale and Wyll as humans.

Minthara would be a good alt for Shadowheart, both elves-ish and clerics, especially if Minthara was more STR/Con oriented for heavier armors and tank up battlepriestess mode, so its not just a rehash of Viconia from BG1/2.

Ranger NPC / preset player character is Minsc.


I can agree with the preset player character being Minsc only if you get Boo as well
Posted By: Black_Elk Re: Fan club of Minthara - 07/01/21 02:23 AM
Oh I suppose that makes sense, I had forgotten Minsc was a thing. So 3 male human companions then at a minimum?

I gotta imagine we get at least 1 human female companion?
If it works out like I'm hoping, the archetypes we know we have now...

Priests:
Shadowheart F Half-Elf Cleric

Rogues:
Astarion M Elf (Daywalker) Thief

Warriors:
Lae'zel F Gith Fighter
Minc M Human Ranger

Wizards:
Gale Human Human Male Mage
Wyll Human Human Male Warlock

For a good solid BG game each traditional archetype should have like 4 alts to choose from...For a start these are top contenders from EA act 1 so far.

Minthara F Cleric
Halsin M Druid
Kagha F Druid

Alfira F Tiefling Bard
Sazza F Goblin (Thief?)
Florrick F Elf Mage/Sorcerer?

A Human Female something?
A Dwarf?

Probably I'm only going to get 3 alts, if that, but I'd like a dozen on top of the 5 origins + Minsc for 16-18 companions total. That'd feel at least on the level of BG2 for companions.

Like 16 npcs where 8 are Origin and 8 have intro questlines, but are intended just as companions (not protagonists).

Then add in an option to recruit player created Mercs with just barks and a more limited merc arch, and I think the game would stand up to its predecessors.
Its important that we have a decent mix of companions though. I'd vote for Minthara for sure
Posted By: OneManArmy Re: Fan club of Minthara - 07/01/21 11:41 PM
I want people to say after release, "Dragon Age has Morrigan, The Witcher has Yennefer, and Baldurs Gate has Minthara"

I think it's real, so Larian needs to work more on Minthara. She has a lot of potential
Posted By: Kadajko Re: Fan club of Minthara - 08/01/21 12:10 AM
Originally Posted by OneManArmy
I want people to say after release, "Dragon Age has Morrigan, The Witcher has Yennefer, and Baldurs Gate has Minthara"

I think it's real, so Larian needs to work more on Minthara. She has a lot of potential

Those are the characters you compare her to? She is so different, atm atleast, I hope to God she has nothing in common with the other two examples.
Posted By: soulstalker Re: Fan club of Minthara - 08/01/21 12:13 AM
I do have one question on the path to get Minthara I lost Wyll as he leaves the party during the party after defeating the druids, which was really bad for my party formation. Is there a way to keep Wyll and finish the path to get Mintharas after druids are slaughtered?


I don't like Gale and i am trying to do an all caster party. This party i went as a Gith Wizard and playing him more as a more caster focused eldritch knight, closer to the really old AD&D 2e optional class militant Mage which was more like a fighter that traded weapon specializations for wizard spell usage. For party i picked wyll, shadowheart, and temporally Leazel as an eldritch knight and had planned on replacing her with Minthara. The gith part gives him racial proficiency in armor upto medium, and weapons like shortsword, longsword, and greatsword, he is going with greatsword and wearing gith half plate as a wizard, i did strength low only because i know how to get the headband of intellect quickly, and had given wyll til he left medium armor procency with the extra point into dex to let him use medium armor and a shield, so it wasa full caster party with all of them wearing medium armor
Posted By: Kadajko Re: Fan club of Minthara - 08/01/21 12:15 AM
Originally Posted by soulstalker
I do have one question on the path to get Minthara I lost Wyll as he leaves the party during the party after defeating the druids, which was really bad for my party formation. Is there a way to keep Wyll and finish the path to get Mintharas after druids are slaughtered?

Every time this question is asked everyone always answers - no.
Posted By: OneManArmy Re: Fan club of Minthara - 08/01/21 12:16 AM
Originally Posted by Kadajko
Originally Posted by OneManArmy
I want people to say after release, "Dragon Age has Morrigan, The Witcher has Yennefer, and Baldurs Gate has Minthara"

I think it's real, so Larian needs to work more on Minthara. She has a lot of potential

Those are the characters you compare her to? She is so different, atm atleast, I hope to God she has nothing in common with the other two examples.


She has nothing to do with them, she is better than them. BUT, I was referring to the category "Most Famous Female Character in the Franchise"

Originally Posted by soulstalker
I do have one question on the path to get Minthara I lost Wyll as he leaves the party during the party after defeating the druids, which was really bad for my party formation. Is there a way to keep Wyll and finish the path to get Mintharas after druids are slaughtered?

No, Will leaves in any case
Posted By: Kadajko Re: Fan club of Minthara - 08/01/21 12:28 AM
Originally Posted by OneManArmy
She has nothing to do with them, she is better than them. BUT, I was referring to the category "Most Famous Female Character in the Franchise"

Lets not pretend like It will be someone other than Shadowheart.
Posted By: OneManArmy Re: Fan club of Minthara - 08/01/21 12:45 AM
Originally Posted by Kadajko
Originally Posted by OneManArmy
She has nothing to do with them, she is better than them. BUT, I was referring to the category "Most Famous Female Character in the Franchise"

Lets not pretend like It will be someone other than Shadowheart.

If Minthara was available as a companion from the very beginning of the game, and Shadow Heart was only available during the tiffling genocide, I would argue with you. This is only 1 act, let's see what will be in the release
Posted By: Kadajko Re: Fan club of Minthara - 08/01/21 12:49 AM
Originally Posted by OneManArmy
Originally Posted by Kadajko
Originally Posted by OneManArmy
She has nothing to do with them, she is better than them. BUT, I was referring to the category "Most Famous Female Character in the Franchise"

Lets not pretend like It will be someone other than Shadowheart.

If Minthara was available as a companion from the very beginning of the game, and Shadow Heart was only available during the tiffling genocide, I would argue with you. This is only 1 act, let's see what will be in the release

It's not about that, Shadowheart just fits more common tastes better, Minthara is more particular taste.
Posted By: OneManArmy Re: Fan club of Minthara - 08/01/21 01:00 AM
Originally Posted by Kadajko
Originally Posted by OneManArmy
Originally Posted by Kadajko
Originally Posted by OneManArmy
She has nothing to do with them, she is better than them. BUT, I was referring to the category "Most Famous Female Character in the Franchise"

Lets not pretend like It will be someone other than Shadowheart.

If Minthara was available as a companion from the very beginning of the game, and Shadow Heart was only available during the tiffling genocide, I would argue with you. This is only 1 act, let's see what will be in the release

It's not about that, Shadowheart just fits more common tastes better, Minthara is more particular taste.

[Linked Image from d.radikal.ru]
Posted By: Kadajko Re: Fan club of Minthara - 08/01/21 01:06 AM
10/10
Posted By: OneManArmy Re: Fan club of Minthara - 08/01/21 03:42 PM
I wonder if the writer who is working on Minthara is reading this topic? I wish it were true.
And all those who worked on animation, voice acting, her appearance and so on.

You're doing a good job, keep going! We love your character, you are great!


She is so sexy giving the order to feed her spiders a goblin Sazza
Posted By: Yawgmoth Re: Fan club of Minthara - 08/01/21 10:23 PM
Originally Posted by OneManArmy
[Linked Image from d.radikal.ru]

Okey here you gave me a good laugh! Amazing meme!

And yes i kinda agree that Minthara is more particular taste! I suspect me and good OneManArmy share that taste since he chose Yennefer as best romance and that will be my same answer.

I really like how they developed her in the romance and the story show her in different lights, expecially after trying mudering you then she will try to help you despite her own safety.

So far really they just give you some extra reasons to help the goblin except immediately falling in love for her and gamble everything your life included into helping her murdering the whole druids group
Posted By: DragonMaster69 Re: Fan club of Minthara - 09/01/21 12:33 AM
Originally Posted by Kadajko
Originally Posted by soulstalker
I do have one question on the path to get Minthara I lost Wyll as he leaves the party during the party after defeating the druids, which was really bad for my party formation. Is there a way to keep Wyll and finish the path to get Mintharas after druids are slaughtered?

Every time this question is asked everyone always answers - no.


I don't think there is because if you remember correctly Wyll is out to destroy the Goblins not destroy the druids. So by helping Minthara you are doing the opposite of what he wants to do.
Posted By: Drath Malorn Re: Fan club of Minthara - 09/01/21 05:57 AM
Just wanted to drop a +1 for OneManArmy's montage.
Posted By: Malrith Re: Fan club of Minthara - 09/01/21 10:43 AM
I had completely missed her during my playthrough (and by missed I mean that I fought her, but had no dialogue interaction whatsoever), which is a shame since I was playing a drow too and would've liked to see the interactions. Just started a new game yesterday and I'm heading to her straight away with my new Tiefling Ranger. Can't really comment much on this topic as of yet (since I've avoided spoilers as much as possible) but I'm looking forward to see what all the fuss about her is about. Will update you on my findings :P
Posted By: OneManArmy Re: Fan club of Minthara - 10/01/21 12:28 AM
Originally Posted by Malrith
I had completely missed her during my playthrough (and by missed I mean that I fought her, but had no dialogue interaction whatsoever), which is a shame since I was playing a drow too and would've liked to see the interactions. Just started a new game yesterday and I'm heading to her straight away with my new Tiefling Ranger. Can't really comment much on this topic as of yet (since I've avoided spoilers as much as possible) but I'm looking forward to see what all the fuss about her is about. Will update you on my findings :P

Yes, that's what I was talking about.
Many players on the path of good miss such a unique experience with Minthara, and she deserves to be known to everyone.
We will wait, I hope you will love her too, and there will be more Minthara fans wink


P.S. choose dialogue with persuasion check over Ilythid's ability after party. And do not go into her fears - she very much regrets that drow society and evil Goddess forces her to kill friends and wait for a knife in the back, it is difficult for her to trust and love
Posted By: Kadajko Re: Fan club of Minthara - 10/01/21 12:34 AM
@OneManArmy

Why do you like Minthara so much? What was it that hooked you?
Posted By: OneManArmy Re: Fan club of Minthara - 10/01/21 12:49 AM
Originally Posted by Kadajko
@OneManArmy

Why do you like Minthara so much? What was it that hooked you?

She is evil, dominant (I even said she is a beautiful dominatrix), powerful, sexy and super charismatic. Her storyline promises to be more interesting than helping the tifflings

I love the fact that her trust is hard to win. Shadow Heart is hard to get into bed but easy to become her trusted friend - Minthara is the opposite. I will get great pleasure when she realizes that she can trust me and I will never betray her, I think she will treasure it very much.
She just be afraid to love and trust someone, to make her not be afraid and feel safe next to the Main Character is a very good goal. I think she with her character will like that I will obey her and admire her of my own free will, being at the same time strong.

I think if she understands this and allows herself to really fall in love, she will be ready to sacrifice her life for the sake of the main character, just like she tried to kill us. I think she is capable of such an heroic act. Laezel and Shadow Heart are not capable of this, for them a true friend and love will be of less value than for Minthara

If the main character is good, she can even become neutral like Viconia, she has potential. If the hero is prone to evil, that's fun too.

She, like me, dislikes Lolth and her cruelty, which makes the drow live in fear and violence, but at the same time she is cruel in herself and this is not bad. Lolth's cruelty is for everyone, Minthara's cruelty is only for minions and enemies for the sake of higher goals or personal gain. She is capable of good and feels sincere regret when the Absolute orders to kill the main character, is able to risk everything to help us and it is very easy to convince her not to kill us. This shows that kindness and the concept of honor also has a place in her soul.

It's difficult with her, but the moral reward for a successful romance with her should also be very large. I think she is very lonely and deserves happiness and love.
Posted By: Yawgmoth Re: Fan club of Minthara - 10/01/21 09:07 AM
Originally Posted by Kadajko
@OneManArmy

Why do you like Minthara so much? What was it that hooked you?
Originally Posted by Kadajko
@OneManArmy

Why do you like Minthara so much? What was it that hooked you?

For me also the voice they chose for her it’s very on spot! I really appreciate her.

Also her romance seems much more natural to me, it’s starting hard but razing down the village and help her into her goals it will help you going further on that route.
I think there are plenty to work in that romance seems I think at this stage she likes so much the Main Character mostly because he/she is carrying the “King of the Tadpoles” in his/her brain and she like us for our future power.

And I want add that after experienced Shadowheart romance I found much more satisfying the one with Minthara, because they tried to make Shadowheart reaction an “hard to get” romance.
In every single step she will antagonize you trying to peek at her truself! Come on! And please don’t always throw at me charisma check for every step I want take to work on the romance UNLESS Larian planned the Shadowheart to be the “hard to get” on purpose.

Btw to come back in topic I find Minthara will be totally used as companion and long term romance, I mean why waste so much good voice acting, sex scene and planning into that just for a secondary character that will be never be a companion??
Posted By: OneManArmy Re: Fan club of Minthara - 13/01/21 02:12 AM
Focus Feedback: Minthara's Intimacy [Heavy Spoilers][potentially NSFW screenshots and language]
Posted By: Yawgmoth Re: Fan club of Minthara - 13/01/21 10:00 PM

Well seems we have another big fan of Minthara and a very hard work and detailed one. Big congratulations to him/her for all this work! Now i hope Larian Studios will take a little bit of their time fixing the whole romance scenes
Posted By: Niara Re: Fan club of Minthara - 14/01/21 12:10 AM
Thanks for the supporting words, though I do have to be honest here; I'm not specifically a fan of Minthara - I'm interested in all aspects of the game presenting themselves well, and I'm interested in authentic depictions of the types of content they choose to represent, and when it comes to intimacy, scenes that are able to be immersive and engaging, in whatever way they ultimately decide to pitch themselves. Minthara's scenes were a perfect way to break down most of the current issues that I very much want to see rectified before they carry through to every other intimate scene and sequence as well.

On topic though (I haven't got the spare time to read through the whole thread, sorry), Minthara is definitely coded and set up to be recruitable and to potentially be a full party member in future The tell on this is a silly, simple thing: She's wearing equipment, actual in-game equipment, and when you loot it from her, she's left in her underwear; that only happens with companions or future recruitable companions. ^.^
Posted By: Kadajko Re: Fan club of Minthara - 14/01/21 01:39 AM
How old do you guys think Minthara is?

200-300? 300-400?
Posted By: Yawgmoth Re: Fan club of Minthara - 14/01/21 08:58 AM
@Niara oh Thank you for your honesty! I mean i understand in your post that you wasn't talking only about Minthara romance but using it as example to talk about romance and sex scene.
By the way i still appreciate very much all your hard work and research you put in your post (and in this way i could say that i appreciate seeing the pics of the female romance with Minthara, at least i avoided to reply to whole game just to see them :P)

And Thank you for confirm about Minthara being a companion i had my suspects when i murdered her (sigh i'm such a monster i know but really Larian should give some extra reasons to side with except just for the sake of burn down the whole Groove) and looting her she were naked after i looted her and an extra reason its when you use "talk with dead" on her you get a big amount of lore from her corpse.

I'm very happy she will be used as companion in the full game!
Posted By: Yawgmoth Re: Fan club of Minthara - 14/01/21 09:09 AM
Originally Posted by Kadajko
How old do you guys think Minthara is?

200-300? 300-400?

At the moment i don’t know how much old she can be. I don’t remember speaking with her she gave any hints about events that could help us to guess her age.

Said that I will not say she is very old but she had her fair of experiences and bad relationships.
She has a good load of those Menzoberranzan life style.
Maybe she is 300 years old?
Posted By: Soulcatcher30 Re: Fan club of Minthara - 19/01/21 11:38 AM
Do you think we might be able to sway her away from the cult?
Posted By: booboo Re: Fan club of Minthara - 19/01/21 11:53 AM
I never got a chance to chat to her - her lackeys attacked me (maybe I made too much noise coming in...can't recall) and she joined in. At that point the whole fort was on alert, so maybe that means you just have less oppurtunity to do anything. Would have been nice to have her in a room with no other characters?
Posted By: Kadajko Re: Fan club of Minthara - 19/01/21 12:12 PM
Originally Posted by Soulcatcher30
Do you think we might be able to sway her away from the cult?

I think that if she will play a bigger role / be a party member it is a given.
Posted By: Kadajko Re: Fan club of Minthara - 19/01/21 12:13 PM
Originally Posted by booboo
I never got a chance to chat to her - her lackeys attacked me (maybe I made too much noise coming in...can't recall) and she joined in. At that point the whole fort was on alert, so maybe that means you just have less oppurtunity to do anything. Would have been nice to have her in a room with no other characters?

It doesn't matter who is in which room, if the fort it on alert, everyone will attack you once you get close to them, even if those fights will be isolated from one another,
Posted By: Necrosian Re: Fan club of Minthara - 20/01/21 04:44 PM
So where do i signup for club membership here?

Anyway. Anyone else think that whole "You belong tome, i to you" was a bit too soon? Yeah sure we just massacred few tiefling and druids, and a few kids. Had sex once. Then all of a sudden the drow, with history of bad relationships, professes to us. Bit abrupt in my opinion.
Posted By: spectralhunter Re: Fan club of Minthara - 20/01/21 04:54 PM
Originally Posted by Necrosian
So where do i signup for club membership here?

Anyway. Anyone else think that whole "You belong tome, i to you" was a bit too soon? Yeah sure we just massacred few tiefling and druids, and a few kids. Had sex once. Then all of a sudden the drow, with history of bad relationships, professes to us. Bit abrupt in my opinion.

I think it was. And I’m probably the only one on this forum that doesn’t see what the hype is about regarding Minthara.

She looks like she’s going to fall under the same trope of other drow female characters in BG2 and NWN. Both Viconia and Nathyrra were evil companions who get redeemed by the player character. Seems the damsel in distress trope has evolved.

Now if Minthara stays pure evil (and she should since I don’t see how you can be redeemed after massacring the grove) for role play with evil characters, that’d be interesting.
Posted By: fylimar Re: Fan club of Minthara - 20/01/21 07:54 PM
Originally Posted by spectralhunter
Originally Posted by Necrosian
So where do i signup for club membership here?

Anyway. Anyone else think that whole "You belong tome, i to you" was a bit too soon? Yeah sure we just massacred few tiefling and druids, and a few kids. Had sex once. Then all of a sudden the drow, with history of bad relationships, professes to us. Bit abrupt in my opinion.

I think it was. And I’m probably the only one on this forum that doesn’t see what the hype is about regarding Minthara.

She looks like she’s going to fall under the same trope of other drow female characters in BG2 and NWN. Both Viconia and Nathyrra were evil companions who get redeemed by the player character. Seems the damsel in distress trope has evolved.

Now if Minthara stays pure evil (and she should since I don’t see how you can be redeemed after massacring the grove) for role play with evil characters, that’d be interesting.


I don't get the hype either. I even watched her romance on youtube, since I really don't want to kill the Tieflings and druids. Not my cup of tea, she rubs me the wrong way. But she undoubtedly has her fans. Maybe we will get her on evil route and Halsin on good one. Would make sense, since you have kill one of those to do the other ones quest.
Posted By: Kadajko Re: Fan club of Minthara - 20/01/21 08:20 PM
Originally Posted by spectralhunter
Anyone else think that whole "You belong tome, i to you" was a bit too soon?

It's not, since she says she saw enough of you in your mind when you connected, but the plot hole is that it happens regardless of what kind of personality your character has, I think there should be a few flags that she needs to check, based on your background and dicisions, to see if you fit what she likes.

Originally Posted by spectralhunter
Both Viconia and Nathyrra were evil companions who get redeemed by the player character. Seems the damsel in distress trope has evolved.

Wat? how is that a damsel in distress? When was Nathyrra a damsel in distress?
Posted By: spectralhunter Re: Fan club of Minthara - 20/01/21 10:04 PM
Originally Posted by Kadajko
Originally Posted by spectralhunter
Anyone else think that whole "You belong tome, i to you" was a bit too soon?

It's not, since she says she saw enough of you in your mind when you connected, but the plot hole is that it happens regardless of what kind of personality your character has, I think there should be a few flags that she needs to check, based on your background and dicisions, to see if you fit what she likes.

Originally Posted by spectralhunter
Both Viconia and Nathyrra were evil companions who get redeemed by the player character. Seems the damsel in distress trope has evolved.

Wat? how is that a damsel in distress? When was Nathyrra a damsel in distress?

Evolved. Meaning drow females that are companions are seemingly designed to be redeemed or “saved” in some fashion. In Nathyrra’s case, it was to help her cause ( been a long time so I don’t remember clearly). Of course both Viconia and Nathyrra weren’t damsels in distress literally. But I get the “white knight” vibe with their stories.

If Minthara can be redeemed, I suspect it will play out the same way. I hope she stays pure evil whether she joins the party or not. I would love to see the final narrative story explaining how she took back her house and is now a matron or something like that.
Posted By: Ayvah Re: Fan club of Minthara - 20/01/21 10:58 PM
It's more a matter of whether or not the character is actually evil or simply "misunderstood".

If the character is evil, then a redemption arc is implied as character development. If the character is misunderstood, then the onus would be on the player to go through an arc of better understanding her perspective.
Posted By: Nyloth Re: Fan club of Minthara - 20/01/21 11:35 PM
Originally Posted by Ayvah
It's more a matter of whether or not the character is actually evil or simply "misunderstood".

If the character is evil, then a redemption arc is implied as character development. If the character is misunderstood, then the onus would be on the player to go through an arc of better understanding her perspective.

Evil characters do not need to pass the "arch of redemption" for "character development". Please, let's destroy this standard of erasing evil characters and their evil personalities. This is not a mandatory ritual for "character development".

I rly hope that characters like Minthara, Lae and Astarion will remain evil. And that they would rather cut MC throat than be kinder.
Posted By: Ayvah Re: Fan club of Minthara - 21/01/21 12:06 AM
Wait. What do you think "evil" means? What do you think character development is?

Originally Posted by Nyloth
that they would rather cut MC throat than be kinder.
Yeah, um, that would be smart.

Now, I would like to imagine that they're "evil" for reasons above and beyond being evil for the sake of being evil.
Posted By: Kadajko Re: Fan club of Minthara - 21/01/21 12:21 AM
Originally Posted by spectralhunter
If Minthara can be redeemed, I suspect it will play out the same way. I hope she stays pure evil whether she joins the party or not. I would love to see the final narrative story explaining how she took back her house and is now a matron or something like that.

Well I personally hope not, it would be super weird trying to ''redeem'' someone after you slaughter some kids to get on their good side. I like her as the character she currently is and don't want her to change.

Also evil is in the eyes of the beholder, you can be evil to some while being good to others, I don't want to be on Mintharas good side, but that doesn't mean that she needs some sort of redemption.

Originally Posted by Ayvah
What do you think character development is?

Characters ideals and personality being challenged over time and becoming more solid or going through change.
Posted By: Leucrotta Re: Fan club of Minthara - 21/01/21 01:06 AM
All of the Romance endings in Throne of Bhaal were obviously written with a good-aligned character in mind. Romance Anomen and you get 'treated' to an epilogue where a bunch of celestial envoys attending the marriage of the new goddess of Murder... eek

Viconia being the only evil romance option and having a redemption arc was sadly pretty predictable. It's a pretty tired and well-worn troupe at this point to redeem evil party members and especially romance options. The reverse is much rarer. I never followed the Nathyrra* romance in HotU, but I do remember that if you went with the evil option for the middle third of the game and sided with the Valsharess you lost both her and Valen side against you no matter what-costing you half of the endgame companions and romance options right then and there. Think that say a bit about common design principles of rpgs when it comes to romance right there. of note, the only romances you lose out on in BGIII by siding with the druids is Minthara herself, whereas you lose three (Wyll, Shadowheart, Gale) if you side with her.

I regards to Minthara and her romance, I think the voice actor did amazing voice work for her-her voice is really saturated with emotion when she confesses her love.**

At the same time I *do* think that her whole 'relationship' (for lack of a better word) feels really.....accelerated. compared to all the other characters you can romance, you barely interact with her-talk to her three times and suddenly wants wants to be with you forever! We are like halfway through the first act and we are getting this emotional confession of love (she basically proposes to you, really) that feels like it should be the sort of thing coming in sometime in the final act after journeying with her for 20 hours. Like I'm not sure where they can go with that relationship from there? I'm kinda concerned that her arc feels so...rushed so far because they don't have particularly long-term plans for her...

Honestly, I think she's likely to get killed off in the Act I finale or something like that. Probably her tadpole triggers and she spontaneously turns into a flayer or some sort of emotional suckerpunch like that. IIRC even when you convince her to not turn on you, she never seems to gets clued in that you aren't a follower of the absolute, and there's still the matter of the one in her head as well. That's a lot of convincing we need to do when we aren't even going to be seeing her again by her words until after moonrise towers, when presumably the poo hits the fan and we need to get the tadpoles out NOW.

*Bit odd trend that Minthara is the third Drow female romance option so far, but I can't think of a single male drow party member, much less romance option in any games. Also, I don't think there's ever been a recruitable follower of Lolth in any game either. Gotta be a Drow Lady, but not too evil, so they have to have turned away from the Spider Queen and need to have a soft and sentimental side. *shrug*

**It does feel really weird that she shows her sentimental and soft side right after having you butcher a bunch of defenseless innocents. A bit tonally off IMO.
Posted By: Nyloth Re: Fan club of Minthara - 21/01/21 01:11 AM
Originally Posted by Ayvah
Wait. What do you think "evil" means? What do you think character development is?

Originally Posted by Nyloth
that they would rather cut MC throat than be kinder.
Yeah, um, that would be smart.

Now, I would like to imagine that they're "evil" for reasons above and beyond being evil for the sake of being evil.

I don't understand how this article is related to what I said. In your understanding, evil characters should always become pitiful and kind, redeeming, in order to become stronger (develop)? To me, it doesn't, and that doesn't make them stupid.


For changes, the character doesn't have to become kinder or redeem something.. Otherwise, every good character would have to experience the "fall arch", but WOW, for some reason, this does not happen. They remain the same kind and no one says that they do not have growth. Or in your understanding ,the "evil" character is always "stupid" because he is evil? Also strange.

Some of them will always be cruel, cold, too selfish, and so on, maybe this is the basis of their personality. And chaotic characters don't even need a good reason to hurt others. Neutral evil can always pursue its own benefit, it never ends. Why do they have to suddenly reconsider their views? Lifestyle? Idk. Instead, they can develop in this direction. Was a thief? Become the king of thieves! Stronger. More domineering. More merciless. And so on.

I wrote about "throat" because I want the evil characters to have clear views. Just as clear as the good characters who leave your squad because you do too many evil things. You know what I mean? It is better to let them betray MC for the sake of their views than to be another victim of the "arch of redemption".
Posted By: Kadajko Re: Fan club of Minthara - 21/01/21 01:18 AM
Originally Posted by Leucrotta
We are like halfway through the first act and we are getting this emotional confession of love (she basically proposes to you, really) that feels like it should be the sort of thing coming in sometime in the final act after journeying with her for 20 hours. Like I'm not sure where they can go with that relationship from there?

How about being in a relationship, instead of spending the whole game getting into one? Starting a relationship should be only the beginning.
Posted By: Leucrotta Re: Fan club of Minthara - 21/01/21 01:41 AM
Maybe. Still not much of a start though IMO. As I mentioned, there's like three conversations before she makes her confession of love.

I doesn't look like much of a relationship is planned either. You can't take her with you in your party or camp-she says she'll see you again after you go to Moonrise Tower and meet the Absolute-which means Act II at the earliest we'll even see her again. Compare that with the Origin characters who even if you aren't in a relationship with, you get to hear their banter, their impressions, their side quests. Maybe Larian will develop it into something meatier, but there really isn't much there at all, and there aren't really any hints towards that changing by the end of Act I even.
Posted By: Kadajko Re: Fan club of Minthara - 21/01/21 01:47 AM
Originally Posted by Leucrotta
Maybe. Still not much of a start though IMO. As I mentioned, there's like three conversations before she makes her confession of love.

I doesn't look like much of a relationship is planned either. You can't take her with you in your party or camp-she says she'll see you again after you go to Moonrise Tower and meet the Absolute-which means Act II at the earliest we'll even see her again. Compare that with the Origin characters who even if you aren't in a relationship with, you get to hear their banter, their impressions, their side quests. Maybe Larian will develop it into something meatier, but there really isn't much there at all, and there aren't really any hints towards that changing by the end of Act I even.

She does not confess love.

Also the tiefling origin character, for example, wants to meet you later in baldurs gate, and declines joining straight away.
Posted By: Leucrotta Re: Fan club of Minthara - 21/01/21 03:24 AM
Originally Posted by Kadajko
Originally Posted by Leucrotta
Maybe. Still not much of a start though IMO. As I mentioned, there's like three conversations before she makes her confession of love.

I doesn't look like much of a relationship is planned either. You can't take her with you in your party or camp-she says she'll see you again after you go to Moonrise Tower and meet the Absolute-which means Act II at the earliest we'll even see her again. Compare that with the Origin characters who even if you aren't in a relationship with, you get to hear their banter, their impressions, their side quests. Maybe Larian will develop it into something meatier, but there really isn't much there at all, and there aren't really any hints towards that changing by the end of Act I even.

She does not confess love.

Also the tiefling origin character, for example, wants to meet you later in baldurs gate, and declines joining straight away.
I feel like this is splitting hairs at this point, but I find it hard to take her 'You belong to me and I to you' thing otherwise.

As for the Tiefling character, I think that's just a placeholder dialogue-she doesn't even haver her look finalized yet-still has both horns.
Posted By: Zarna Re: Fan club of Minthara - 21/01/21 04:52 AM
Originally Posted by Nyloth
Evil characters do not need to pass the "arch of redemption" for "character development". Please, let's destroy this standard of erasing evil characters and their evil personalities. This is not a mandatory ritual for "character development".
This. I would prefer to get rid of this entirely, but if it must exist (which it probably will since people seem to be obsessed with it) then there also should be a way to turn other characters to evil.

Originally Posted by Leucrotta
Bit odd trend that Minthara is the third Drow female romance option so far, but I can't think of a single male drow party member, much less romance option in any games.
I have a sad feeling a game that had this would make it be a Drizzt clone or have some forced redemption crap for anything to progress.
Posted By: Ayvah Re: Fan club of Minthara - 21/01/21 05:28 AM
Quote
And chaotic characters don't even need a good reason to hurt others.
Originally Posted by Nyloth
In your understanding, evil characters should always become pitiful and kind, redeeming, in order to become stronger (develop)? To me, it doesn't, and that doesn't make them stupid.
I dunno. The idea of killing your allies rather than paying them a compliment seems a bit stupid, doesn't it? Is that what being "evil" means to you? Stabbing people just because it's the evil thing to do? That's the definition of "stupid evil".

In D&D lore: "good" means collectivist/selflessness, "evil" means individualist/selfishness, "lawful" means honest/honourable and "chaotic" means dishonest/dishonourable.

So imagine a chaotic evil character, Mr Moneybags, who selfishly wants to become wealthy and is willing to break the law and kill other people to acquire wealth. However, what if Mr Moneybags learns that it's more efficient to acquire that wealth by being friendly and cooperative and by following the law? Then why not do that instead?

Being "chaotic evil" alignment doesn't mean becoming the murder hobo. Sometimes being evil means being good. You catch more flies with honey and all that.

Honestly, I think the whole alignment system in D&D is just a bit of lazy convenience anyway that really just ends up getting confusing once you start telling complex stories. Alignment isn't a big thing in BG3, and seems to be getting phased out of D&D in general. I approve of this.

Originally Posted by Nyloth
For changes, the character doesn't have to become kinder or redeem something.. Otherwise, every good character would have to experience the "fall arch", but WOW, for some reason, this does not happen. They remain the same kind and no one says that they do not have growth. Or in your understanding ,the "evil" character is always "stupid" because he is evil? Also strange.
The key element in any character arc is the internal flaw and the character arc is the process of overcoming that flaw.

If a character is "stupid evil", then they are by definition flawed. Like Mr Moneybags for example -- a character who's too stupid to realise that murder is not the only way to get rich. If Minthara is doing something stupid then that's a huge opportunity for a character arc.

A character arc doesn't always mean "become nicer". Sometimes it can be the opposite. Many stories have been told where the climax is the protagonist learning to "love themself more" or "fight back against the bully" or whatever.
Posted By: Sozz Re: Fan club of Minthara - 21/01/21 05:35 AM
Originally Posted by Kadajko
Originally Posted by Leucrotta
We are like halfway through the first act and we are getting this emotional confession of love (she basically proposes to you, really) that feels like it should be the sort of thing coming in sometime in the final act after journeying with her for 20 hours. Like I'm not sure where they can go with that relationship from there?

How about being in a relationship, instead of spending the whole game getting into one? Starting a relationship should be only the beginning.

It's sad that the only rpg I can easily think of that does this is Final Fantasy IV
Posted By: Sozz Re: Fan club of Minthara - 21/01/21 05:38 AM
I'm getting some serious deja vu regarding this alignment convo

Edit: here's what I'm thinking of
Posted By: Necrosian Re: Fan club of Minthara - 21/01/21 08:00 AM
Don't really want a redemption arc as such. More so somewhat wholesome development. Something along the lines "I can trust MC" while still being somewhat evil. Preferably not baby kicking, mustache twirling variety.

I just hope Mithara doesn't devolve into: "HAHA, i really don't care about you, here have a backstab!" at the "first" opportunity.
Posted By: TheOnlyRealTav Re: Fan club of Minthara - 21/01/21 09:10 AM
To be honest, I feel like Minthara features, as a character, a huge potential both to be reedemed or to be drawn into the darkness.
On one side, she is clearly willing to harm innocents and acts really nasty towards her followers. She is really, really vengeful as well.
But, if we take look at her other character traits, she can show mercy, she does clearly care about the PC, shows him/her plenty of compassion and trust, while literally risking her life and position, 2 of things that she values the most, for us. But there has to be something specific, for this to happen.

When we mind-read her during the romance cutscene, we get to know that she suffered heavy lossess, when it comes to friends, lovers, family members. She depises the backstabbing and cruelty of Lolth too; we can learn that she is pretty cowardly as well. It's not really usual thing for a typical drow to actually care about someone, especially to the point where it might clearly backfire against them.

In one of dialogues, in the camp we get to learn, that the poor treatment of goblins/rest of her soldiers is due to Minthara saying that they need "strong hand" leadership. So there is another layer of depth here, with a clear explaination for her behavior, other than "just evil for the sake of it".

Looking at from where does the drow warlord come from, it's not suprising that she has trust issues or troubles when it comes to having friends. We get to see a change in this style of behavior though already, during the end of the Druid Grove questline.

She doubts the Absolute too, which you get to learn by selecting proper dialogue during the camp conversation after waking up.
The more you learn about her, the more it is shown, that there is heavy conflict in her mind, over what she has to do.

Basically the game portrays her as someone who isn't exactly inherently evil; the drow lady is simply a broken person, who due to upbringing and her personal history became a tragic villain. She tries to play someone "strong and powerful", a being who does not display any weaknessess. This is just a ruse, which we learn only if PC chooses to side with Goblins.
As for the reason, why the romance is going so fast, it's because:

Just like mentioned before, she did mind-read us. It certainly accelerated the formation of bond between us and her heavily.
On top of this, PC is potentially the first person since really long time, to show her genuine care and understanding, which causes her to actually fall in love with PC.

Just for clarification; it seems currently that the reason for her to spend the night with us, is because the Absolute wants us dead and it causes us to lose the ability to spot the potential danger.
Homever, she can't bring herself to carry out the order, if PC bothers to treat her nicely, she actually goes against it.
To sum it up; She is multi-layered, complex character, who features both bad and good traits. The reason for why though, the "evil" side does dominate, is written above. Personally, I think that she should feature possiblity of either becoming someone much worse/better; depending on the choice of player, simply because there is a good logical reason for this to happen.

EDIT: Just forgot about it; The whole character of Minthara is a good example why DnD alignment system is flawed. It's simplyfying the possible personalities way too much. For example someone can be mostly selfish, but will never harm others, lie, cheat etc. Basically all of things that make a character good; with exception that they are... selfish.
Posted By: Zarna Re: Fan club of Minthara - 21/01/21 09:18 AM
Originally Posted by Ayvah
So imagine a chaotic evil character, Mr Moneybags, who selfishly wants to become wealthy and is willing to break the law and kill other people to acquire wealth. However, what if Mr Moneybags learns that it's more efficient to acquire that wealth by being friendly and cooperative and by following the law? Then why not do that instead?
What if a law abiding character learned it is more efficient to kill and steal to acquire the wealth? There should also be nothing wrong with doing this.
Quote
Being "chaotic evil" alignment doesn't mean becoming the murder hobo. Sometimes being evil means being good. You catch more flies with honey and all that.
Sometimes being good means doing evil.
Quote
Honestly, I think the whole alignment system in D&D is just a bit of lazy convenience anyway that really just ends up getting confusing once you start telling complex stories. Alignment isn't a big thing in BG3, and seems to be getting phased out of D&D in general. I approve of this.
Agreed. It seems to make people feel they "have" to be a certain way to fit into their alignment rather than doing things naturally.
Quote
If a character is "stupid evil", then they are by definition flawed. Like Mr Moneybags for example -- a character who's too stupid to realise that murder is not the only way to get rich. If Minthara is doing something stupid then that's a huge opportunity for a character arc.
Being evil does not mean being stupid but it does show up in all alignments. Mr. Moneybags might actually be very smart and decided murder is the most efficient way to getting rich.
Quote
A character arc doesn't always mean "become nicer". Sometimes it can be the opposite. Many stories have been told where the climax is the protagonist learning to "love themself more" or "fight back against the bully" or whatever.
Your examples here aren't really the opposite of becoming nicer. smile Good is definitely not nice a lot of the time anyway.

Character growth and development is always a good thing but the constant general assumption that evil always needs redeeming is just tiring and annoying. The rare times a good character turns evil usually get screwed up too, they always have to regret it and get sucked into the redemption crap as well. I hope for more options rather than the same worn out and unrealistic stuff that shows up everywhere.


Originally Posted by Necrosian
Don't really want a redemption arc as such. More so somewhat wholesome development. Something along the lines "I can trust MC" while still being somewhat evil. Preferably not baby kicking, mustache twirling variety.

I just hope Mithara doesn't devolve into: "HAHA, i really don't care about you, here have a backstab!" at the "first" opportunity.
Any sort of non redemption development option would be fine with me. It really should be hard to gain her trust though, and depending on choices made there may be some backstabbing along the way.
Posted By: Kadajko Re: Fan club of Minthara - 21/01/21 11:02 AM
Originally Posted by TheOnlyRealTav
Basically the game portrays her as someone who isn't exactly inherently evil; the drow lady is simply a broken person, who due to upbringing and her personal history became a tragic villain. She tries to play someone "strong and powerful", a being who does not display any weaknessess. This is just a ruse, which we learn only if PC chooses to side with Goblins.

And how exactly do we learn this? If a character is capable of feeling fear and can feel sadness due to loss they are not strong and are tragic and broken? Strong are only those that never feel fear and dgaf about anything?
Posted By: Nyloth Re: Fan club of Minthara - 21/01/21 11:10 AM
Originally Posted by Ayvah
any character arc is the internal flaw

I don't agree with you. Characters can develop by acquiring new qualities, rather than getting rid of old ones. There are also a bunch of stories where the characters learn to live with their "internal flaw" or indulge it. It's all very individual. And it's still considered a development. You do not have to "fix" everything to make the character more developed and interesting. Good deeds adhere to morality, evil deeds are mostly immoral. There is a big difference between catching flies for the sake of selfishness and for the sake of helping others.

Also, chaotic evil should be "stupid" according to your concepts, because in most cases it is classified as a "monster" who just likes to destroy everything. Again, chaotic evil doesn't need a good reason to kill someone or destroy something. Many chaotic characters kill for fun (or they're really monsters), and not because of an order (lawful evil) or for benefit (neutral evil).

Originally Posted by Ayvah
If a character is "stupid evil", then they are by definition flawed. Like Mr Moneybags for example -- a character who's too stupid to realise that murder is not the only way to get rich. If Minthara is doing something stupid then that's a huge opportunity for a character arc.

As someone has already said, killing can be the easiest and most profitable way to get rich, so your "mister" may not be such a "stupid evil", he just likes simple ways.


Originally Posted by Ayvah
Alignment isn't a big thing in BG3, and seems to be getting phased out of D&D in general.

Also sad for me, because it implies a change in the characters ' worldview, which I don't approve of. I believe that a character can develop in the direction of their mores, views and tastes. Let it make him mad or maliciously great.

Originally Posted by Ayvah
A character arc doesn't always mean "become nicer". Sometimes it can be the opposite. Many stories have been told where the climax is the protagonist learning to "love themself more" or "fight back against the bully" or whatever.

We are talking about evil characters, in this case, writers often resort to the "arch of redemption" method, which makes them "become nicer". Cuz for evil "love themself more" means becoming even more selfish. My point is that these examples are not suitable for evil characters, you understand that such endings happen to heroes.

Evil characters can become even more evil, can be obsessed with revenge, want to become great, and they can gloat over and over again, becoming more ignorant. The big problem is that we don't have many stories about evil in evil way, where evil didn't fall or change for good way. Especially in games.

And this is not because it is a "bad way", it's just that we constantly talk about heroes and encourage morality. Even in stories about maniacs, the detective most often wins, although life is full of stories when the killer was not found and he did not get what he deserved.
Posted By: TheOnlyRealTav Re: Fan club of Minthara - 21/01/21 11:20 AM
Originally Posted by Kadajko
Originally Posted by TheOnlyRealTav
Basically the game portrays her as someone who isn't exactly inherently evil; the drow lady is simply a broken person, who due to upbringing and her personal history became a tragic villain. She tries to play someone "strong and powerful", a being who does not display any weaknessess. This is just a ruse, which we learn only if PC chooses to side with Goblins.

And how exactly do we learn this? If a character is capable of feeling fear and can feel sadness due to loss they are not strong and are tragic and broken? Strong are only those that never feel fear and dgaf about anything?

No worries, I will explain.

Look at drow society. Displaying any kind of emotions is seen as weakness there, since it can be exploited. We do learn that she is full of fear and she tells us, although in anger,(we can presume that she tries to bluff us) we are told, that she uses the fear to strengthen herself (So she is ashamed of the feeling and in her eyes, it makes her weak, in her opinion). Which is clearly against what we get to learn via mind-reading.

She is tragic and broken person, because of both from where she comes (no, don't tell me that drow society is good in any way, according to lore almost everyone is insane there) and since we are told that she lost lots of family members, lovers and friends -> someone, her enemies I guess, killed them (it's also hinted that she did care about them, unlike typical drow). On top of this, her entire life is to quote the game itself "anticipating knife in the back".
The transformation of her behavior is also a kind of hint, towards who she really is.

There is very little of what you could call a good or happy life there. Struggling to survive every day is completely opposite of that actually.
In a short summary: In her eyes, being cold, uncaring, fearless etc. is seeing as being strong. That's what they basically "teach" the drow in Underdark. But, looking at how she acts later, I really question that she believes this without any kind of doubt.

If you have any further questions, feel free to ask; I reloaded basically every time I had a dialog with more important NPCs (Kagha, Halsin, etc.) so that I could learn more about them.
Posted By: Kadajko Re: Fan club of Minthara - 21/01/21 11:32 AM
@TheOnlyRealTav

So you think that everyone that is raised in an ''evil'' society are tragic and broken? All drow, all goblins etc? Every individual can feel sad for loss. Also, from what I undrstood, she killed a lot of the people she cared about due to betrayal, not enemies, but it's not that important. There are always unpleasant things on any path you take, doesn't mean that the path is not for you, as soon as you encounter the first difficulty.
Posted By: TheOnlyRealTav Re: Fan club of Minthara - 21/01/21 12:19 PM
Originally Posted by Kadajko
@TheOnlyRealTav

So you think that everyone that is raised in an ''evil'' society are tragic and broken? All drow, all goblins etc? Every individual can feel sad for loss. Also, from what I undrstood, she killed a lot of the people she cared about due to betrayal, not enemies, but it's not that important. There are always unpleasant things on any path you take, doesn't mean that the path is not for you, as soon as you encounter the first difficulty.

It depends on what society it is. A son of a cruel dictator is raised in evil society, but is his life bad? I do not think so. Life of most evil, average characters in DnD is miserable though.

Goblins mostly aren't that smart to be evil in same way as humans/elves/drow. They also have natural tendency towards evil, something that the races mentioned before lack.

Because of how does the life of almost every drow in Underdark look like, you can say that it is tragic, to a different extent.

The daily struggle for survive, combined with pathological society rules, evil and cruel things happening everywhere, is probably why does the lore refer to almost all of them going insane.

IIRC the custcene with mind-reading says that she is scarred mentally due to all of the lossses, constant betrayals, and "anticipating the knife in the back"

Then we get to learn about her "enemies, friends, lovers and family members, slain too soon" which is really vague and not so easy to interpret, as the first line.

The interpretations that come almost instantly to my mind, are:
- she was forced/really unwilling to betray people she cared about, it resulted in their deaths
- her enemies killed lots of people that she cared about
- people she cared about, betrayed her and she was forced to kill them (She gets really angry if we betray her during the camp interaction, which hints that this could be a very real possibility)

The first line and the interaction with player after the failed attempt to kill us in sleep tell us, in a obvious way, that she clearly does not like betraying others.
It doesn't come as easy thing for her. If she has done it before, which very likely was the case, as she is a drow; it wasn't out of her choice, or there was huge feeling of guilt left afterwards, combined with being really conflicted over what to do.

Then we got the fact that she dislikes Lolth, a goddess of betrayal, backstabbing and cruelty. Another hint.
Posted By: Nyloth Re: Fan club of Minthara - 21/01/21 12:39 PM
Originally Posted by TheOnlyRealTav
Goblins mostly aren't that smart to be evil in same way as humans/elves/drow. They also have natural tendency towards evil, something that the races mentioned before lack.

What you call "evil" may not be considered "evil" by the character itself. For example, you say that goblins are too stupid, but this does not prevent them from being cruel, just because it is normal for them. They don't think they're doing anything wrong. I'm sure it works for drow too. The definition of evil or good actions comes from "morality", according to moral principles, some actions are considered evil, but the fact is that the concept of morality and justice in each society is different. So what you would consider a "tragic situation" would be something for drow to laugh about.

It is surprising to me that Minthara's fate as a cleric in drow society could be tragic. As far as I know, cleric of Lolth occupy high positions in their hierarchy. She should have been respected.


Originally Posted by TheOnlyRealTav
lore refer to almost all of them going insane

Almost all of them? Can I ask you for a source? I want to read it.
Posted By: Kadajko Re: Fan club of Minthara - 21/01/21 12:45 PM
Originally Posted by TheOnlyRealTav
The first line and the interaction with player after the failed attempt to kill us in sleep tell us, in a obvious way, that she clearly does not like betraying others.
It doesn't come as easy thing for her. If she has done it before, which very likely was the case, as she is a drow; it wasn't out of her choice, or there was huge feeling of guilt left afterwards, combined with being really conflicted over what to do.

Then we got the fact that she dislikes Lolth, a goddess of betrayal, backstabbing and cruelty. Another hint.

Yeah, no one wants to kill people that they like, she has no problems with killing innocent people that she doesn't know personally though, there is zero hesitation or remorse on her part when it comes to slaughtering everyone in the grove. She hesitates killing the player because she likes the player, personally, it's like if you were a servant of the absolute and absolute asked you to smash your nice car that you like. You belong to her, remember?
Posted By: TheOnlyRealTav Re: Fan club of Minthara - 21/01/21 01:15 PM
Originally Posted by Nyloth
Originally Posted by TheOnlyRealTav
Goblins mostly aren't that smart to be evil in same way as humans/elves/drow. They also have natural tendency towards evil, something that the races mentioned before lack.

What you call "evil" may not be considered "evil" by the character itself. For example, you say that goblins are too stupid, but this does not prevent them from being cruel, just because it is normal for them. They don't think they're doing anything wrong. I'm sure it works for drow too. The definition of evil or good actions comes from "morality", according to moral principles, some actions are considered evil, but the fact is that the concept of morality and justice in each society is different. So what you would consider a "tragic situation" would be something for drow to laugh about.

It is surprising to me that Minthara's fate as a cleric in drow society could be tragic. As far as I know, cleric of Lolth occupy high positions in their hierarchy. She should have been respected.


Originally Posted by TheOnlyRealTav
lore refer to almost all of them going insane

Almost all of them? Can I ask you for a source? I want to read it.

Yes, no problem.

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Drow

Unlike inherently evil creatures like orcs,[58] the evil of the drow wasn't of inherent nature:[59][60] They enforced the Way of Lolth,[61] leading to a race of emotionally stunted people,[31] with a tenuous grasp on sanity and scarred mentalities, among which relatively undamaged minds were considered abnormal.[59] However, as mentioned above, the drow had no innate drive towards evil and their morality was colored by the society they lived in.[60]


The difference though, is that goblins even if exposed to good behavior towards them, may still not get it and will not change. It's literally not possible for them to understand.

Drow, if removed from their society and treated well, will in majority of cases become better people.

The very ract that cult of Lolth is forcibly enforced, tells you that it's not uncommon for drow to have doubts about it.

I do not think that fearing about your life every day as a drow, would be trurly enjoyable for anyone but really crazy people. Fear is always negative emotion, which can turn life into suffering. So is being forced to hide all of your emotions and de facto being alone, since noone can be trusted.

Her life, even as a cleric of Lolth is still tragic, because if she would be born as a noble elf on surface, certainly there would be less negative aspects than here, not to mention very important thing:
With greater power, comes greater responsibility.
As a priest of Lolth and a member of powerful noble family she is even more exposed to all the infighting, betrayals and struggle for power. That includes trying to survive among people who want to get rid of her.
Posted By: TheOnlyRealTav Re: Fan club of Minthara - 21/01/21 01:34 PM
Originally Posted by Kadajko
Originally Posted by TheOnlyRealTav
The first line and the interaction with player after the failed attempt to kill us in sleep tell us, in a obvious way, that she clearly does not like betraying others.
It doesn't come as easy thing for her. If she has done it before, which very likely was the case, as she is a drow; it wasn't out of her choice, or there was huge feeling of guilt left afterwards, combined with being really conflicted over what to do.

Then we got the fact that she dislikes Lolth, a goddess of betrayal, backstabbing and cruelty. Another hint.

Yeah, no one wants to kill people that they like, she has no problems with killing innocent people that she doesn't know personally though, there is zero hesitation or remorse on her part when it comes to slaughtering everyone in the grove. She hesitates killing the player because she likes the player, personally, it's like if you were a servant of the absolute and absolute asked you to smash your nice car that you like. You belong to her, remember?

That is not really suprising though, if you judge her with consideration of where she comes from. Article on wiki from the link above might let you understand about it more.

But so does she belong to you. Do not forget, that would her deception towards the Absolute be discovered, things would go really badly. She risks her life and position just so that you are alive and even provides considerable help, just so that you stay safe. This is already a heavy improvement over typical drow behavior.

That's why I wrote above, about her being multi layered character. You will find both bad and good traits in her; There is potential to turn her towards one of those sides, that's for sure.

As for the innocent characters, noone can deny that she isn't willing to attack the grove. But what I found really interesting, is that she de-humanizes the inhabitants of grove by calling them "infidels" and "filth". It's probably her trying to rationalize the entire attack; we do know that she is sadistic too. This coupled with thirst for power and she sees it at that moment as perfectly fine.

This doesn't mean that she won't regret it later though. Take look at Nathyrra from NWN, they share some simliarities.

Thing is, we've yet to wait for the game to show us the true reason, for the attack. It's probabably because she wants to impress her superiors, but there were some interesting possibilities with
Zevlor being revealed as a spy for the Absolute , through datamining. It could be personal rivarly for the favour of the Absolute. We do not know what is the real future fate of Tieflings too.

Either way, it's really stupid that we have to kill Minthara or Halsin. They are really interesting characters and there is little reason for both of them to die.
Even for evil playthroughs, there is reason to have both of them stay alive.
Posted By: Kadajko Re: Fan club of Minthara - 21/01/21 01:49 PM
@TheOnlyRealTav

See, I find that people very often confuse the two. Whether a character is capable of feeling attraction and love is completely seperate from how they treat other people. I don't know if you player The old republic but there is a companion and a romance option for Sith warrior - Jaesa. If you romance her, she falls very deeply in love with you and acts very anti-sith like when it comes to you, she says that even though you are her master she would never betray you, never hurt you and never try to kill you and take over, like sith apprentices do when they are ready, and she proves this with her deeds in the story so it's not just words. But at the same time she is a sadisic psychopath when it comes to anyone else, she likes inflicting pain, torture and kill, says after fights in an ecstasy ''their pain is exquisite'' and is a zealot when it comes to the rest of the Sith doctrine. The fact that someone falls in love with and is kind towards you does not mean that it's some kind of step towards being loving and kind to everyone in general.
Posted By: TheOnlyRealTav Re: Fan club of Minthara - 21/01/21 02:41 PM
Originally Posted by Kadajko
@TheOnlyRealTav

See, I find that people very often confuse the two. Whether a character is capable of feeling attraction and love is completely seperate from how they treat other people. I don't know if you player The old republic but there is a companion and a romance option for Sith warrior - Jaesa. If you romance her, she falls very deeply in love with you and acts very anti-sith like when it comes to you, she says that even though you are her master she would never betray you, never hurt you and never try to kill you and take over, like sith apprentices do when they are ready, and she proves this with her deeds in the story so it's not just words. But at the same time she is a sadisic psychopath when it comes to anyone else, she likes inflicting pain, torture and kill, says after fights in an ecstasy ''their pain is exquisite'' and is a zealot when it comes to the rest of the Sith doctrine. The fact that someone falls in love with and is kind towards you does not mean that it's some kind of step towards being loving and kind to everyone in general.

There are big differences between those 2 characters still; Also we've yet to learn the full story for Minthara to judge it that precisely.

I honestly do not think, that she will be at any point good towards everyone, if redeemed. More like neutral and still uncaring, homever without harming innocents or others without any good reason. And certainly in very good relation towards PC.
Posted By: Kadajko Re: Fan club of Minthara - 21/01/21 03:22 PM
Originally Posted by TheOnlyRealTav
There are big differences between those 2 characters still; Also we've yet to learn the full story for Minthara to judge it that precisely.

I honestly do not think, that she will be at any point good towards everyone, if redeemed. More like neutral and still uncaring, homever without harming innocents or others without any good reason. And certainly in very good relation towards PC.

I know that there is a difference, I was just explaining the difference.

I'm just saying that your assumption that:

Originally Posted by TheOnlyRealTav
The first line and the interaction with player after the failed attempt to kill us in sleep tell us, in a obvious way, that she clearly does not like betraying others.
It doesn't come as easy thing for her.

Is not necessrily true, because she might just be reluctant only because she likes you. If she didn't, she maybe could've done it without any hesitation, which one of the indicators is she does it without hesitation if you probe her for her negative thoughts, since then she is mad at you and no longer has a high opinion of you.
Posted By: Ayvah Re: Fan club of Minthara - 21/01/21 09:05 PM
Originally Posted by Zarna
Sometimes being good means doing evil.
How many people have "good" D&D characters murdered? Often that number seems pretty high. lol.

I mean characters like The Punisher would be a chaotic good, right?

Originally Posted by Kadajko
@TheOnlyRealTav

So you think that everyone that is raised in an ''evil'' society are tragic and broken? All drow, all goblins etc? Every individual can feel sad for loss. Also, from what I undrstood, she killed a lot of the people she cared about due to betrayal, not enemies, but it's not that important. There are always unpleasant things on any path you take, doesn't mean that the path is not for you, as soon as you encounter the first difficulty.
Two questions to ask:
  • Why is the society evil? Is it because some members of that society are being abused? If everyone's happy then it gets a bit hard to argue that it's an evil society.
  • Why is the character evil? Can they adjust to living in a "good" society where you'll be more successful by being nice and friendly?


There are plenty of examples of evil/good characters who adapt to the society they involve themselves in. Urdnot Wrex from Mass Effect is an example. He comes from a brutal "evil" society, but he joins your party and he's a pretty cool guy. However, one of his goals is to revive the krogan race from the brink of extinction, so when it appears that the villain Saren will be able to help him achieve his goal, he is willing to betray you and join Saren against you. To keep him from betraying you, you have to convince him that:
1) This is not the right way
2) Saren's just going to enslave them anyway.
Posted By: Kadajko Re: Fan club of Minthara - 21/01/21 10:08 PM
Originally Posted by Ayvah
Why is the society evil? Is it because some members of that society are being abused? If everyone's happy then it gets a bit hard to argue that it's an evil society.

There is a reason I placed evil in quotes. But every member of the drow society that worships Lolth is being abused, though Drow don't always feel like they are being abused, some of these things are just normal to them.

Originally Posted by Ayvah
Why is the character evil? Can they adjust to living in a "good" society where you'll be more successful by being nice and friendly?

On a philosophical level evil is subjective, in a more conventional undrstanding an evil character is someone who doesn't have a problem with improving their well being at the expense of other peoples well being.
Posted By: KillerRabbit Re: Fan club of Minthara - 21/01/21 10:22 PM
Any Forgotten Realms discussion of evil that doesn't include the role of the gods is flawed. It's just a mistake to import contemporary notions of good and evil into this fantasy realm. In our world we don't think of ontological evil. I, and most people, don't think that people who do morally reprehensible things are being influenced by cosmic forces and that these evil acts take on an ontological form in another dimension of reality. But that's not true of Faerun. In the realms, evil is real. Every murder produces a divine tear in the throne of Bhaal and Bhaal collects and treasures every single tear.

A priestess of Bhaal who murders everyone in the grove is not playing "stupid evil" she is correctly playing to type. In this fantasy world evil for the sake of evil is the default motivation of villains because, unlike our world, evil is an ontological reality.

Anyone watching American Gods? It covers this pretty well. Every sacrifice carried out in Odin's name makes Odin that much stronger. In Faerun, every priest of Bhaal exchanges their god given gifts for acts of worship designed to strengthen their patron deity -- acts of worship such as the murder of innocents.
Posted By: Kadajko Re: Fan club of Minthara - 21/01/21 10:29 PM
@KillerRabbit

I am in the club of people that wants D&D to evolve with time. This is why I want Alignment gone, I want to see contemporary morality in D&D, objective good and evil is one thing I don't like to see in fantasy settings. I see Gods as just having portfolios, you want to please a certain God, you do things that the God likes, if God for example likes murder, you please that God by mudering, if God likes honor, you please that God by being honorable, no need to attach the good and evil tags. I don't feel like good / evil is a crucial core part of D&D without which it would not function or would lose it's identity.
Posted By: KillerRabbit Re: Fan club of Minthara - 21/01/21 10:50 PM
You and I disagree on this and I'm 100% with Larian and Pathfinder on this issue. WotC tried to eliminate alignment in 4th ed and it was one of the (many) reasons fans rejected it in favor of Pathfinder . . .

Alignment is indeed a crucial part of the identity both of DnD and of BG. Then entire premise of BG was "can you resist the evil inside"? (the very real, ontological evil that was attached to your soul at birth; this premise was stolen from Ravenloft which is a setting that just doesn't work without 'real' evil).

And the BG3 story would suffer without alignment. We don't know how but we do know that Shar is going to play a major role the plot.. Shar gave birth to all evil, she wants to see all life snuffed out. And thus Shadowheart's dilemma . . .

Priests become rather bland without alignment. Make Shar the holder of the portfolio of darkness and deception and she becomes bland.

People just like alignment. Witness the thousands of alignment grid memes. In this WotC is simply screwing up and opening themselves up for a challenge from an alternative ruleset.
Posted By: Kadajko Re: Fan club of Minthara - 21/01/21 11:28 PM
@KillerRabbit

Yeah, we will have to just agree to disagree. I don't think 4th edition failed because of changes to alignment, don't think there would be a problem with BG original story without objective evil, don't think Shar would be bland without objective evil, and don't think BG3 story would suffer in any way without alignment.

Existence of objective good and evil takes away from the setting being serious in my eyes, makes it more goofy, cartoony.
Posted By: Ayvah Re: Fan club of Minthara - 21/01/21 11:56 PM
Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
You and I disagree on this and I'm 100% with Larian and Pathfinder on this issue. WotC tried to eliminate alignment in 4th ed and it was one of the (many) reasons fans rejected it in favor of Pathfinder . . .
What do you mean you're with Larian? Have you found any materials from Larian confirming that Minthara has an "evil" alignment? I'm not aware of any.

As others have pointed out before, BG3 has lots of characters playing against type. We meet a "good" githyanki and even a friendly mindflayer.

Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
People just like alignment. Witness the thousands of alignment grid memes.
I disagree. People like it for the same reason people like horoscopes. It's just about putting people into prescriptive boxes. We might as well be trying to work out whether Minthara is a Sagittarius. Whether or not it's helpful is a separate matter.

Here Zaeed Massani -- a bounty hunter who will literally kill anyone (good or bad) for money -- is classified as "True Neutral" basically just because he's not eating babies for fun. For the record, a bounty hunter who's happy to kill good guys or bad guys as long as he gets a paycheck would be better described as evil.

But what do you think in regards to the "lawful" thing? From memory Zaeed has a strict code of honour that he follows, so I'd classify that as "lawful". But on the other hand, he has no regard for the laws of governments and murder is against the law. So is he lawful or chaotic?

In contrast, the spectres are special because they are given the privilege by law to ignore the laws everyone else needs to follow. Does that make them lawful or chaotic?

(There is no correct answer to these questions.)
Posted By: Nyloth Re: Fan club of Minthara - 22/01/21 12:19 AM
Originally Posted by Ayvah
Here Zaeed Massani -- a bounty hunter who will literally kill anyone (good or bad) for money -- is classified as "True Neutral" basically just because he's not eating babies for fun. For the record, a bounty hunter who's happy to kill good guys or bad guys as long as he gets a paycheck would be better described as evil.

Lawful evil does not imply government orders or compliance with their laws... In fact, it can be anyone's orders. But as you said, he's a hunter, obviously a neutral character. There is nothing "chaotic" about him, if he kills someone for money for his own benefit, then that doesn't make him chaotic. It's pretty obvious, even if you used it as an example. This character perfectly fits the definition of a true neutral.

1. He is only interested in the benefit for himself
2. He is indifferent to other people's problems
3. He will not harm anyone just for fun
4. Impartial


That's enough. I absolutely agree with Killer Rabbit. But I wouldn't say that Larian is going in this way. I am glad that they use the usual archetypes, but with the worldview they can do different way.
Posted By: Sozz Re: Fan club of Minthara - 22/01/21 02:40 AM
The whether or not you breaking the law is Good or Evil depends on if the Law being broken is Good or Evil.
Posted By: Sozz Re: Fan club of Minthara - 22/01/21 02:43 AM
I think that questions of morality aren't as complicated in FR as they are in our world, because we have actual Planes of reality and Deities that represent it certain ideals in this manner.
The real question comes from how characters and worlds are written around these concepts because they can make up whatever answer to these questions they like
Posted By: Ayvah Re: Fan club of Minthara - 22/01/21 02:49 AM
Originally Posted by Nyloth
4. Impartial
For Zaeed to be evil he should refuse to kill other evil people? Why? Out of solidarity?

"Well, I got a contract to kill that guy but then I learned he eats babies so you know... I'd feel uncomfortable about killing such a cool dude. That's why I joined Team Evil. When you join Team Evil you need to be willing to stand up for your comrades. Because I think the world would be better if everyone just ate more babies and I am willing to make a personal sacrifice to make that world a reality.

Team Evil: Because babies are delicious."

Originally Posted by Nyloth
1. He is only interested in the benefit for himself
2. He is indifferent to other people's problems
That's not evil?

The alignment system as defined:

Evil:
  • I will harm others for personal benefit.
  • Maybe eating babies is fun, maybe it's delicious, or maybe it's profitable. Either way, if there's a baby in my belly that doesn't bother me.

Neutral:
  • I won't harm others just because it benefits me, but I am not responsible for harm inflicted by others.
  • I won't eat babies but if someone else wants to eat babies then that's not my problem.

Good:
  • I am responsible for preventing others from causing harm. I should make personal sacrifices for the benefit of others.
  • If someone else tries to eat a baby, I should stop them even at personal cost.

IN ADDITION, the stupid alignments:
Stupid Evil:
  • I will harm others even at personal cost.
  • Babies taste terrible but I eat them because I mean... uh... you know... babies. They don't like it. You gotta eat them.

Stupid Neutral:
  • I literally can't tell the difference between good and evil. I think they should all just compromise.
  • Person A wants to eat a baby (evil). Person B (good) doesn't want Person A to eat a baby. How about we compromise and let Person A eat half a baby?

Stupid Good:
  • I will be "nice" even at personal cost, and even at cost to others.
  • If I meet someone who likes eating babies, then at personal cost I will provide that person with a dining table and a cooking pot and politely ask them to use these items for good. I'm a nice person. Yay!

You're also wrong about Zaeed being "neutral" in terms of lawfulness by the way. Every possible answer is both correct and yet completely and utterly wrong.

[Linked Image from media.giphy.com]

That we're able to have this argument shows how broken the alignment system is.
Posted By: Sozz Re: Fan club of Minthara - 22/01/21 03:12 AM
Like so many of these discussions, what exactly being "True Neutral" becomes a big sticking point, I personally think it's not something actors in the narrative can actually be. If I may reference a binary moral spectrum, Jolee Bindo thinks the only way to live a moral life as a Jedi is to isolate himself from the world as much as possible, but when faced with what the cost of inaction might be he can't help but side with being good. You get something similar (at first anyway) with Kreia.

Neutral isn't something I think people can really be, it can't be point trading, as if one good deed balances one bad deed, and it can't be total inaction because choosing not to do something is as morally fraught as doing something good or bad.
Posted By: Ayvah Re: Fan club of Minthara - 22/01/21 03:45 AM
Another example is Geralt of Rivia, whose entire arc is that he starts out neutral in relation to human matters. He just wants to do his job, killing monsters for money, without getting involved in human conflict.

The few times he gets involved in human conflict, he tries to deal with them in a "stupid neutral" way. He's quoted saying: “Evil is Evil. Lesser, greater, middling… Makes no difference. The degree is arbitary. The definition’s blurred. If I’m to choose between one evil and another… I’d rather not choose at all.”

His character arc is about grappling with the consequences of his neutrality and growing to become a more "good" character.

In terms of his actual monster killing job though, he's always good: It's not a very profitable job, and he'd probably be better off getting a job as a bodyguard (a job which he's refused on several occasions). Additionally, he will refuse to kill good monsters and often kills evil monsters even when the pay isn't worth it.

Layers!
Posted By: dwig Re: Fan club of Minthara - 22/01/21 03:51 AM
IMO you can totally hate the alignment system without bringing contemporary morals into it. The notion that you can boil ANY sapient creatures motives, culture, and actions into a 2D scatter plot is just stupid.

The whole system is just flame bait.
Posted By: KillerRabbit Re: Fan club of Minthara - 22/01/21 03:55 AM
Originally Posted by Ayvah
What do you mean you're with Larian? Have you found any materials from Larian confirming that Minthara has an "evil" alignment? I'm not aware of any.

To be honest I'm just too lazy to look it up but in an interview before the game was released Sven said that alignment wasn't in the game but would probably be put in because people liked it. (and he's right) Also, clerics of evil gods get the tag [evil cleric] -- notice that Shadowheart is the one party member that has an easy time reading the necromancy of thay because she has that tag.


Originally Posted by Ayvah
As others have pointed out before, BG3 has lots of characters playing against type. We meet a "good" githyanki and even a friendly mindflayer.

Alignment doesn't say you can play against type -- it just sets the standard for the type to be played against. I hope we don't get other good mind flayers -- ruins the eldritch terror of the flayers. Who is the good Gith?

Originally Posted by Ayvah
Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
People just like alignment. Witness the thousands of alignment grid memes.
I disagree. People like it for the same reason people like horoscopes. It's just about putting people into prescriptive boxes. We might as well be trying to work out whether Minthara is a Sagittarius. Whether or not it's helpful is a separate matter.

That's a very Aries point to make wink Yeah, people like horoscopes, good analogy. So what's wrong with that? I mean as long as you aren't using horoscopes to map out the career for a rock band it's all good fun.

I think alignment opens up interesting role playing possibilities. Of course anyone can bring up bad or cliched examples but that doesn't mean all such examples are bad or cliched.

Ever watch Star Trek the Next Generation? There is a core principle of the federation -- the prime directive.

Quote
As the right of each sentient species to live in accordance with its normal cultural evolution is considered sacred, no Starfleet personnel may interfere with the normal and healthy development of alien life and culture. Such interference includes introducing superior knowledge, strength, or technology to a world whose society is incapable of handling such advantages wisely. Starfleet personnel may not violate this Prime Directive, even to save their lives and/or their ship, unless they are acting to right an earlier violation or an accidental contamination of said culture. This directive takes precedence over any and all other considerations, and carries with it the highest moral obligation.

And then the series would put the protagonists in series of moral quandaries where they would need to choose between this value and some competing value. Does the prime directive apply to a slave owning society? What about a society of body snatchers -- parasites that have brainwashed a population into believing that being invaded by a mind control tadpole is the greatest possible honor? Can the crew live up the precepts of their 'alignment' ?

In BG2 Keldorn has a conflict between the two axes of alignment -- the law says his wife should hang, the good says he should forgive her. There is no Lawful and Good resolution, thus the strain in the character and CHARNAME's need to resolve the issue for him.

Your example looks like lots of fun (really!) but I've not played mass effect so I hesitate to comment on an NPC I don't understand but your larger point is correct. Alignment -- like astrological signs -- break down. The question is whether all games need to be like Mass Effect. (as you are telling me it is) Or all fantasy settings need to be like Westeros.


Originally Posted by Ayvah
(There is no correct answer to these questions.)

Which is why they provide the fuel for so many discussions. Which is why they are fun. People need to decide on the basis of the lore, on the personal values they project upon them, upon the context in which the questions show up.

Or, to put it another way, Alignment is fun smile
Posted By: KillerRabbit Re: Fan club of Minthara - 22/01/21 04:03 AM
Originally Posted by Sozz
The whether or not you breaking the law is Good or Evil depends on if the Law being broken is Good or Evil.

So says the neutral good or chaotic good character. Now I agree with that but I'm chaotic good in real life wink
Posted By: KillerRabbit Re: Fan club of Minthara - 22/01/21 04:09 AM
Originally Posted by Kadajko
@KillerRabbit

Existence of objective good and evil takes away from the setting being serious in my eyes, makes it more goofy, cartoony.

If you had to choose, which game seems more goofy and cartoony? BG2 -- with its focus on alignment or DOS2 which doesn't have an alignment system? My answer is DOS by a mile.

I think DnD lives in some place on a continuum between the cartoony world of DOS1 and the realpolitik of Westeros. I love the Ice and Fire novels but I want to play an RPG in Faerun.
Posted By: Ayvah Re: Fan club of Minthara - 22/01/21 04:16 AM
I just want to add, for anyone who wants to see Geralt's character arc from neutral to good summarised in a single trailer.

Note that in the trailer they repurposed the "evil is evil" quote a bit. In the books / TV series (NSFW) it is said in one of his "stupid neutral" moments where his attempt to play both sides eventually results in the worst possible outcome.

Cool stuff.
Posted By: OneManArmy Re: Fan club of Minthara - 22/01/21 04:49 AM
Interestingly, only Astarion and Minthara have lot of fans in Internet.

Gail, Will, Laezel, even Shadow Heart (although she is cute and mysterious) seems to be chosen by many in game, but they do not have enough charisma and charm to have many discussions about them. They are good companions, interesting personalities, the developers did a good job but just ... just not that.

Creative people like bright, charismatic and self-loving maniacs who have a difficult fate and who know how to inspire
Posted By: Sozz Re: Fan club of Minthara - 22/01/21 05:45 AM
Originally Posted by OneManArmy
Interestingly, only Astarion and Minthara have lot of fans in Internet.

Gail, Will, Laezel, even Shadow Heart (although she is cute and mysterious) seems to be chosen by many in game, but they do not have enough charisma and charm to have many discussions about them. They are good companions, interesting personalities, the developers did a good job but just ... just not that.

Creative people like bright, charismatic and self-loving maniacs who have a difficult fate and who know how to inspire

I'm on the record saying that Shadowheart is the most interesting companion to me so far, probably the best written too. But the Shar/Selune speculation threads are long fallow now. People enjoy discussing morally compromised characters, and more, how they feel they're being treated by the game.
Posted By: Ayvah Re: Fan club of Minthara - 22/01/21 06:23 AM
I think it's just that Minthara is hotter than Shadowheart. She is more conventionally feminine in appearance, at least.

Damn, just realised that the male companions -- Gale, Astarion and Wyll are all attractive in their own ways.

Meanwhile, the only human(ish) female companion is Shadowheart.

Aside from her, we've also got Lae'zel, a githyanki, and potentially also a tiefling and a halfling. A lot of fetish material if you're into that kind of thing. lol.

Minthara is starting to look pretty good. Sorry everyone. I'm gonna have to turn her good like I did with Morrigan from Dragon Age.

It's just science.
Posted By: Sozz Re: Fan club of Minthara - 22/01/21 08:08 AM
I'm beginning to wonder if the people who like Minthara are also the same people whose first Star Trek was Voyager.
Posted By: Sozz Re: Fan club of Minthara - 22/01/21 08:17 AM
Originally Posted by Ayvah
Aside from [Shadowheart], we've also got Lae'zel, a githyanki, and potentially also a tiefling and a halfling. A lot of fetish material if you're into that kind of thing. lol.
Says the guy rhapsodizing about how beautiful the Drow is :p
Posted By: Kadajko Re: Fan club of Minthara - 22/01/21 10:45 AM
Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
If you had to choose, which game seems more goofy and cartoony? BG2 -- with its focus on alignment or DOS2 which doesn't have an alignment system? My answer is DOS by a mile.

I think DnD lives in some place on a continuum between the cartoony world of DOS1 and the realpolitik of Westeros. I love the Ice and Fire novels but I want to play an RPG in Faerun.

DOS2, but not by a mile, it would be by a mile if there was no alignment in BG2. I enjoyed DOS2, but I would also enjoy it more if it was more serious,I enjoyed BG2 as well even with alignment. But like I said alignment is not tied in my mind to the setting, it doesn't suddenly become westeros without it.
Posted By: Kadajko Re: Fan club of Minthara - 22/01/21 10:50 AM
Originally Posted by Ayvah
I think it's just that Minthara is hotter than Shadowheart. She is more conventionally feminine in appearance, at least.

Strange, I feel like the polar opposite, but maybe that's because Shadowhearts personality is much more feminine. And that's actually the reason I like Minthara more, not a fan of effeminate females.
Posted By: Soulcatcher30 Re: Fan club of Minthara - 22/01/21 10:55 AM
I don't care about evil vs good thing, I just want more drow waifus and husbandos for my drow characters.
Posted By: Kadajko Re: Fan club of Minthara - 22/01/21 10:59 AM
Originally Posted by Soulcatcher30
I don't care about evil vs good thing, I just want more drow waifus and husbandos for my drow characters.

[Linked Image from i.imgflip.com]
Posted By: Ayvah Re: Fan club of Minthara - 22/01/21 11:26 AM
Originally Posted by Sozz
Originally Posted by Ayvah
Aside from [Shadowheart], we've also got Lae'zel, a githyanki, and potentially also a tiefling and a halfling. A lot of fetish material if you're into that kind of thing. lol.
Says the guy rhapsodizing about how beautiful the Drow is :p
Eh. I don't know if strange skin colours are that abnormal. They have human faces, pretty much. (I know there have been complaints about that.)

Now the elves from DOS2, that is more of a fetish.
[Linked Image from oyster.ignimgs.com]

When it comes to the tieflings, I'm digging the horns and all, but the fangs still feel like more of an acquired taste. Maybe Karlach will grow on me though.
[Linked Image from pcinvasion.com]
Posted By: TheOnlyRealTav Re: Fan club of Minthara - 22/01/21 01:58 PM
Originally Posted by Kadajko
I'm just saying that your assumption that:

Originally Posted by TheOnlyRealTav
The first line and the interaction with player after the failed attempt to kill us in sleep tell us, in a obvious way, that she clearly does not like betraying others.
It doesn't come as easy thing for her.

Is not necessrily true, because she might just be reluctant only because she likes you. If she didn't, she maybe could've done it without any hesitation, which one of the indicators is she does it without hesitation if you probe her for her negative thoughts, since then she is mad at you and no longer has a high opinion of you.


And that is why I have said before:

Originally Posted by TheOnlyRealTav
To be honest, I feel like Minthara features, as a character, a huge potential both to be reedemed or to be drawn into the darkness.

Originally Posted by TheOnlyRealTav
I honestly do not think, that she will be at any point good towards everyone, if redeemed. More like neutral and still uncaring, homever without harming innocents or others without any good reason. And certainly in very good relation towards PC.

I do not disagree with you about possible change happening with her, logically she could indeed become better overall, or just much better towards PC and much more calm towards others (selfishly though). Or much worse.

I think that this is well coorelated to your previous post; in other words, she will become more "tame", less violent, but will still remain selfish and uncaring towards everyone but PC.
We had more or less simliar thought, we've just expressed it differently.

I can see a reason for her to be even in party of good or neutral PC (when we join tieflings ofc, so before that slaughter, which makes her have way less blood on her hands), but this would require the Larian to implement the knockout mechanic and possiblity of capture.

I've said that in one of threads in feedback part of the forum, how could this be implemented. (Act 1 Druids vs Tieflings topic). If you are interested; here is the link:
https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=748888#Post748888

Even when being evil and joining tieflings out of selfish reasons, PC could still make use of her, or just let her join you out of genuine sympathy/whatever you roleplay.

Same goes for Halsin still joining those who sided with Minthara. The more options, the better it gets.
Posted By: Kadajko Re: Fan club of Minthara - 22/01/21 02:01 PM
Originally Posted by TheOnlyRealTav
I can see a reason for her to be even in party of good or neutral PC (when we join tieflings ofc, so before that slaughter, which makes her have way less blood on her hands), but this would require the Larian to implement the knockout mechanic and possiblity of capture.

There already is a knockout mechanic, it's just not working quite properly yet.
Posted By: TheOnlyRealTav Re: Fan club of Minthara - 22/01/21 02:04 PM
Originally Posted by Sozz
Originally Posted by OneManArmy
Interestingly, only Astarion and Minthara have lot of fans in Internet.

Gail, Will, Laezel, even Shadow Heart (although she is cute and mysterious) seems to be chosen by many in game, but they do not have enough charisma and charm to have many discussions about them. They are good companions, interesting personalities, the developers did a good job but just ... just not that.

Creative people like bright, charismatic and self-loving maniacs who have a difficult fate and who know how to inspire

I'm on the record saying that Shadowheart is the most interesting companion to me so far, probably the best written too. But the Shar/Selune speculation threads are long fallow now. People enjoy discussing morally compromised characters, and more, how they feel they're being treated by the game.

Indeed they are the most interested in morally grey characters, simply because they have flaws, just like real life humans. They offer huge potential when it comes to roleplay and potential change of character, simply because they feature the traits of 2 sides. It's up to PC, towards which side, they will be moved to. Purerly heroic or evil characters are just cartoonish, unless they are supernatural, but then they might be boring.

I agree that Shadowheart is well written. Out of all companions though, I like Lae'zel and Gale the most, since they seem to be the most loyal and trusted ones. Gale can be convinced by PC to stay even after we have done something that goes against his views (attack on the grove).
Posted By: TheOnlyRealTav Re: Fan club of Minthara - 22/01/21 02:06 PM
Originally Posted by Kadajko
Originally Posted by TheOnlyRealTav
I can see a reason for her to be even in party of good or neutral PC (when we join tieflings ofc, so before that slaughter, which makes her have way less blood on her hands), but this would require the Larian to implement the knockout mechanic and possiblity of capture.

There already is a knockout mechanic, it's just not working quite properly yet.
I have written this badly here, sorry. I meant exactly what you have said; same thing was written by me in other thread, linked above.
Knocked out characters bug the quests, aren't registered in them or just get slaughtered by nearby npcs. There is little interaction with them afterwards.
Posted By: Kadajko Re: Fan club of Minthara - 22/01/21 02:11 PM
Originally Posted by TheOnlyRealTav
There already is a knockout mechanic, it's just not working quite properly yet.
I have written this badly here, sorry. I meant exactly what you have said; same thing was written by me in other thread, linked above.
Knocked out characters bug the quests, aren't registered in them or just get slaughtered by nearby npcs. There is little interaction with them afterwards.

I have a feeling though that Minthara might be the ''hell no, I'm not working with you, kill me or sod off.'' type.
Posted By: TheOnlyRealTav Re: Fan club of Minthara - 22/01/21 02:19 PM
Originally Posted by Kadajko
I have a feeling though that Minthara might be the ''hell no, I'm not working with you, kill me or sod off.'' type.
You remember though, that:
- "I do not intend to lead a suicide charge"
- "Goblins are expendable, I am not"
- She spent her whole life "anticipating knife in the back"
- Via mindreading, we get to know that she is pretty cowardly, we can even call her a coward afterwards.

She clearly values her life to a great degree and isn't the most brave person. Also, if defeaten, but not killed:
- She still needs protection from possible drow assasins, as she is an ex-Lolth believer
- Enemies are everywhere, she has no friends as well
- I do not think that Absolute tolerates failure, returning there isn't an option.

At first, she wouldn't join you out of sympathy, to quote Lae'zel - "Practical choice". That would be the reason. She is said to be very intelligent and her possible knowledge of Absolute could be put to a great use for PC. I'm pretty sure she could realise that.

We get to know too, that she isn't exactly the most honest follower of Absolute, probably she sides with them only for power.

EDIT: Grammar and style
Posted By: Kadajko Re: Fan club of Minthara - 22/01/21 04:35 PM
@TheOnlyRealTav

Hmm, yeah, you're probably right.

Back to the absolute is exactly where is is going though if she joins us. lol
Posted By: OneManArmy Re: Fan club of Minthara - 22/01/21 04:41 PM
Originally Posted by Kadajko
Originally Posted by Ayvah
I think it's just that Minthara is hotter than Shadowheart. She is more conventionally feminine in appearance, at least.

Strange, I feel like the polar opposite, but maybe that's because Shadowhearts personality is much more feminine. And that's actually the reason I like Minthara more, not a fan of effeminate females.

I think Minthara is feminine, which is great. Femininity is not necessary should be an archetype "Damsel in distress"

She can be sentimental and sweet in certain moments, strong and confident in some moments, cruel sadistic in some, but at the same time remains feminine. Masculinity is Cassandra of the Dragon Age of the Inquisition, a hideous character. Minthara is fine with that.
Posted By: OneManArmy Re: Fan club of Minthara - 22/01/21 04:50 PM
As for the knockout mechanics - I think it should be a cast scene in a good playthrough, when there is an opportunity to save her life and take her to the party. Very few players will correctly use the knockout mechanic, I think for IMPORTANT characters Larian need to do cast scenes with an offer to surrender, and knockout only for
not important characters / Easter eggs / enemies with information
Posted By: TheOnlyRealTav Re: Fan club of Minthara - 22/01/21 05:00 PM
Originally Posted by Kadajko
@TheOnlyRealTav

Hmm, yeah, you're probably right.

Back to the absolute is exactly where is is going though if she joins us. lol

But thing is, she isn't going there alone. Minthara travles there with pretty powerful friends/companions.

I forgot this one too - she, just like the rest of Absolute leaders, doesn't seeem to be aware of having a tadpole. Now that could easily make her hate the Absolute, if she does learn it.

So, she might be going there to sort out some things hahahaha.
Posted By: TheOnlyRealTav Re: Fan club of Minthara - 22/01/21 05:10 PM
Originally Posted by OneManArmy
As for the knockout mechanics - I think it should be a cast scene in a good playthrough, when there is an opportunity to save her life and take her to the party. Very few players will correctly use the knockout mechanic, I think for IMPORTANT characters Larian need to do cast scenes with an offer to surrender, and knockout only for
not important characters / Easter eggs / enemies with information
Easy to do, I will repeat what I have said in different thread:


Quote
During the fight, Minthara and Zevlor should be brought down to 1 hp first, instead of being outright killed. Only player should be able to finish them off for good. Scroll of revieve/resurrection should still be able to bring them back though.
Quote
Problem: Outcomes of the battle being different, instead of just killing all the enemies.
a) Minthara is knocked out, battle ends. Zevlor talks to us, what to do with new prisoner.
The options should include:
- Giving her to druids/tieflings
- Finishing her off
- Taking her as a prisoner
b) Minthara is dead, battle is over. Current version of cutscene is started.
c) Minthara is unable to fight, due to being too wounded and exhausted, but still conscious + fight is over. First, we can approach her, to ask a few questions and possibly foreshadow our intentions, then cutscene with Zevlor discussing with us about what to do with drow starts. Or we just finish her off.
d) Attackers flee, the Drow warlord is at full health. Tries to escape, ends up being captured. Altered cutscene with Zevlor plays.
e) The Cleric of Absolute is surrounded by the enemies and the rest of her soldiers flee. She tries to make the last stand. Player should be given the possiblity to persuade her to surrender, promising no harm etc. Otherwise she fights until the moment of not being able to fight anymore (1 hp). PC gets to decide to do with warlord afterwards.
Quote
Talking to Minthara after the battle, still at the grove and knocking her out glitches the whole final part of the quest. If we return back from the camp, after a long rest, she talks to us as if nothing happened, telling us that she will visit our camp. Homever, returning to camp doesn't start the celebrations. Nothing happens, except for Halsin attacking us.

If we happen to fight the drow lady, after the camp celebration and knock her out, no matter the previous treatment (if we were nice to her, or not) and we return to camp after the long rest, she is initiating the fight with 1 hp. Even if we knock her out again + come back after another long rest. It makes no sense.
We should be able to capture her afterwards or decide to patch her up. (if we treated her well and failed the 5 DC persuasion check)
Both could happen as well at same time.

Taken from:
https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=748888&page=2

Especially the camp interaction, in current form makes no sense. Even if we fail the ridiculously easy roll; she still fights us and there is no way to forgive her, if player wishes to/capture the drow. She just keeps wanting to fight lol. (Same behavior for Halsin)
I do not think that she would be willing to fight in that situation (that means, knocked out, gets up, is badly wounded - 1 hp). Especially if PC would treat her well before and after the fight.

I was thinking too, that if the persuasion roll fails, and we treated the Minthara well before, then we lose the fight; our entire party is slaughtered, besides the player, who is knocked out and wakes up in next morning. It could be pretty interesting, like she is forced to fight us, cannot resist the Absolute well enough, but still isn't going to kill the PC. With the opportunity to meet later somewhere again.
But that's just a thought, the options provided above are much more fleshed out.
Posted By: Kadajko Re: Fan club of Minthara - 22/01/21 05:17 PM
Originally Posted by OneManArmy
I think Minthara is feminine, which is great. Femininity is not necessary should be an archetype "Damsel in distress"

She can be sentimental and sweet in certain moments, strong and confident in some moments, cruel sadistic in some, but at the same time remains feminine. Masculinity is Cassandra of the Dragon Age of the Inquisition, a hideous character. Minthara is fine with that.

No.. Cassandra was actually very feminine, more so than Minthara, atleast from what I've seen so far. Are you just comparing their appearence? Because I am talking about behavior, personality. Dragon age actually didn't have any masculine females. Lae'zel is a good example of a masculine female, and I would consider the romance if she was monogomous, which she is not.
Posted By: DiDiDi Re: Fan club of Minthara - 22/01/21 07:15 PM
OM(F)G, this thread fills me with dread. I certainly hope that BG3 will not turn out to be fan service for waifu-worshipping incels. The way romances are currently handled in EA is not great, which adds to the fear.

That being said, Minthara could be made into a fine party member for evil MCs. But there already is a cleric that seems compatible with all kinds of good/neutral/evil playthroughs. Maybe joining the Absolute (if that kind of play-through/choice is possible) will alienate almost all party members (except Astarion, maybe?) and Minthara will replace Shadowheart in that case...
Posted By: KillerRabbit Re: Fan club of Minthara - 22/01/21 07:20 PM
Originally Posted by Sozz
I'm beginning to wonder if the people who like Minthara are also the same people whose first Star Trek was Voyager.

Yeah I am interested to know who exactly she appeals to. I'll never follow the evil path so I watched the romance scene on youtube. To me it was pretty meh -- some soft porn with some mild D/s elements. Liara's review said the D/s elements weren't 'filmed' correctly so it doesn't seem that her audience isn't lovers of kink. My guess is that her character specifically appeals to those who appreciate sex as reward fantasies.

The narrative tension in ST: TNG was "you have a set of principles, can you keep to them in the face of credible challenge"? Which, as you note, was worn down in subsequent Star Trek variations. My personal theory for the popularity of the Witcher type "grey morality" / "no alignment" is the U.S.' endless wars. Soldiers are fighting a war that started before they were born and no one seems to know what the greater principle is -- outside of some generalized sense of patriotism or the like. So a character like Geralt that just does the job they were given and who has a limited ability to influence the larger events taking place in the world resonates in a way that character that CHARNAME with their ability to bend the universe through the application of willpower does not.
Posted By: Nyloth Re: Fan club of Minthara - 22/01/21 07:35 PM
Originally Posted by DiDiDi
OM(F)G, this thread fills me with dread. I certainly hope that BG3 will not turn out to be fan service for waifu-worshipping incels. The way romances are currently handled in EA is not great, which adds to the fear.

That being said, Minthara could be made into a fine party member for evil MCs. But there already is a cleric that seems compatible with all kinds of good/neutral/evil playthroughs. Maybe joining the Absolute (if that kind of play-through/choice is possible) will alienate almost all party members (except Astarion, maybe?) and Minthara will replace Shadowheart in that case...

You know, people just enjoy the character, there's nothing wrong with that.
Posted By: Ayvah Re: Fan club of Minthara - 22/01/21 07:40 PM
Originally Posted by DiDiDi
OM(F)G, this thread fills me with dread. I certainly hope that BG3 will not turn out to be fan service for waifu-worshipping incels.
Wait, wait, wait...

You thought the Baldur's Gate series were RPGs?

No. Bioware has long pioneered the genre of RPGs that are secretly actually dating sims!

(Also: Dude, chill. No one's forcing you to date women.)
Posted By: Sozz Re: Fan club of Minthara - 22/01/21 07:50 PM
Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
Originally Posted by Sozz
I'm beginning to wonder if the people who like Minthara are also the same people whose first Star Trek was Voyager.

Yeah I am interested to know who exactly she appeals to. I'll never follow the evil path so I watched the romance scene on youtube. To me it was pretty meh -- some soft porn with some mild D/s elements. Liara's review said the D/s elements weren't 'filmed' correctly so it doesn't seem that her audience isn't lovers of kink. My guess is that her character specifically appeals to those who appreciate sex as reward fantasies.

The narrative tension in ST: TNG was "you have a set of principles, can you keep to them in the face of credible challenge"? Which, as you note, was worn down in subsequent Star Trek variations. My personal theory for the popularity of the Witcher type "grey morality" / "no alignment" is the U.S.' endless wars. Soldiers are fighting a war that started before they were born and no one seems to know what the greater principle is -- outside of some generalized sense of patriotism or the like. So a character like Geralt that just does the job they were given and who has a limited ability to influence the larger events taking place in the world resonates in a way that character that CHARNAME with their ability to bend the universe through the application of willpower does not.
People seem to forget that the Witcher's world is very Polish, Nilfgaard is the stand in for Sweden/Germany and most of the Kingdoms when they're not being Poland/Baltic States are Germany/Russia. The reason the Witchers world is so morally grey is because the only sympathetic actors are the people with no agency in their world. Even the ones who try to preserve their identity are tainted by the levels of violence they resort to. I didn't pick up on this in the first game too much, but after reading some of the books and then playing the later games with this in mind, there are a lot of anachronistic traits in the world that point to this kind of allegory, with it sometimes being the Deluge and sometimes being WWII.

It'd be really interesting to look into the parallels between Polish fiction and American fiction.

Then again, I'm one of those simpletons who doesn't always understand what people mean when they say that morality is a difficult question. The people that say they live in a morally grey world usually are saying more about themselves than the world. These are typically the same people who think Cersei is a capable leader and Ned Stark was a fool to be principled in politics. #lawfulstupid
Posted By: Ayvah Re: Fan club of Minthara - 22/01/21 08:09 PM
Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
My personal theory for the popularity of the Witcher type "grey morality" / "no alignment" is the U.S.' endless wars. Soldiers are fighting a war that started before they were born and no one seems to know what the greater principle is -- outside of some generalized sense of patriotism or the like. So a character like Geralt that just does the job they were given and who has a limited ability to influence the larger events taking place in the world resonates in a way that character that CHARNAME with their ability to bend the universe through the application of willpower does not.
This is an inaccurate understanding of his story. The point of Geralt's personality is that he is forced to deal with situations where he has a choice between two shades of grey (sometimes there is a hidden third option but sometimes there isn't). He tries to be a heartless mercenary, killing monsters only for the money and and staying out of human matters. However, while a job killing evil monsters is theoretically supposed to be simple, it isn't, because some "monsters" aren't evil. Meanwhile, on human matters, he regularly has to grapple with the consequences of failing to choose the lesser evil, until eventually he learns the importance of making the lesser evil choice (but carefully). Comparing it to US politics, thematically you can see it as essentially roasting anyone who sat out of the 2016 US election because "both sides are bad".

This arc is playing out in the TV series, but it's pretty much fully resolved before the events of The Witcher 3. By that stage, the idea that he's still trying to act like a neutral uncaring jerk is just used as a gag because all his friends know it's bullshit and in reality he's got a big heart.

(And yes, as Sozz said the political atmosphere The Witcher is largely based on early 20th century World War era.)
Posted By: Kadajko Re: Fan club of Minthara - 22/01/21 08:09 PM
Originally Posted by DiDiDi
I certainly hope that BG3 will not turn out to be fan service for waifu-worshipping incels.

Only incels are allowed to enjoy romances in video games? The more you know.

Originally Posted by DiDiDi
The way romances are currently handled in EA is not great, which adds to the fear.

I would like a clarification on what you dislike and what you think could be done better.

Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
My guess is that her character specifically appeals to those who appreciate sex as reward fantasies.

Some of us expressed very clearly why Minthara appeals to us, you can just read.

Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
My personal theory for the popularity of the Witcher type "grey morality" / "no alignment" is the U.S.' endless wars.

It's just more lifelike, nothing is black and white. When a game features alignment, me and the game disagree too often on what is good and what is evil, or if ''good'' is even diserable outcome in the first place.

Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
The narrative tension in ST: TNG was "you have a set of principles, can you keep to them in the face of credible challenge"?

Every character has their own principles that vary wildly, a game can't actually create a narative like that around a custom PC.
Posted By: DiDiDi Re: Fan club of Minthara - 22/01/21 08:10 PM
I actually don't have a problem with Minthara or with romances in games. I actually DO want to f**k/marry/kill *whoever* in games - WHEN DONE (written) WELL.

The current state of things in EA + this thread made me voice my opinion, as I genuinely fear for the "well written" part.

"Mature" does not have to mean just violence, sex and profanity, although it often means just (and only) that...

For inspiration, look no further than BG2 (+ToB) - although far from perfect, it was not _just_ a collection of campsite story progression-based dialogs rewarding you with fanficty dialogs/cutscenes if you collected enough "I like you" points. Or Planescape: Torment - romances do not have to be just between party chars.

EDIT: There already is a lot of feedback regarding the current state of the romances, especially the infamous after-battle celebration "If only you collected more "I like you" points, then we could have sex" dialogues.
Posted By: Kadajko Re: Fan club of Minthara - 22/01/21 08:15 PM
Originally Posted by DiDiDi
The current state of things in EA + this thread made me voice my opinion, as I genuinely fear for the "well written" part.

So what is the problem?

Originally Posted by DiDiDi
it was not _just_ a collection of campsite story progression-based dialogs rewarding you with fanficty dialogs/cutscenes if you collected enough "I like you" points.

Romances start without people liking each other? Why are you collecting points? Your character doesn't have an opinion? Are you not roleplaying?

Originally Posted by DiDiDi
For inspiration, look no further than BG2 (+ToB)

Haven't romanced anyone in that game.
Posted By: Ayvah Re: Fan club of Minthara - 22/01/21 08:27 PM
Originally Posted by Kadajko
It's just more lifelike, nothing is black and white. When a game features alignment, me and the game disagree too often on what is good and what is evil, or if ''good'' is even diserable outcome in the first place.
I think the problem is that often the evil path in games is just doing "evil" things for no reason, just so you can maintain your Team Evil membership card. It's bad roleplaying.
Posted By: Kadajko Re: Fan club of Minthara - 22/01/21 08:40 PM
Originally Posted by Ayvah
Originally Posted by Kadajko
It's just more lifelike, nothing is black and white. When a game features alignment, me and the game disagree too often on what is good and what is evil, or if ''good'' is even diserable outcome in the first place.
I think the problem is that often the evil path in games is just doing "evil" things for no reason, just so you can maintain your Team Evil membership card. It's bad roleplaying.

And that happens specifically in games that have objective morality.
Posted By: Sozz Re: Fan club of Minthara - 22/01/21 09:16 PM
Originally Posted by Kadajko
Originally Posted by Ayvah
Originally Posted by Kadajko
It's just more lifelike, nothing is black and white. When a game features alignment, me and the game disagree too often on what is good and what is evil, or if ''good'' is even diserable outcome in the first place.
I think the problem is that often the evil path in games is just doing "evil" things for no reason, just so you can maintain your Team Evil membership card. It's bad roleplaying.

And that happens specifically in games that have objective morality.
Describe what that looks like, so I can be sure I know what we're talking about.
Posted By: Kadajko Re: Fan club of Minthara - 22/01/21 09:22 PM
Originally Posted by Sozz
Describe what that looks like, so I can be sure I know what we're talking about.

Not all, but a lot of dark side choices in kotor, renegade in mass effect, bad karma in fallout, karma in fable etc. As opposed to "evil" choices in something like Tyranny.
Posted By: KillerRabbit Re: Fan club of Minthara - 22/01/21 09:58 PM
@Sozz, really great comments!

Quote
The people that say they live in a morally grey world usually are saying more about themselves than the world.

Exactly right. So this is a worldview, one with a name "political realism". And to your larger point the world of the Witcher is one designed with that worldview in mind. The protagonist isn't presented with a series of evil v lesser choices because the universe demanded that he be given those choices its a set of choices set up by authors who subscribe to said worldview. Which worldview -- ST or Witcher -- seems the more 'realistic' tells you volumes about the opinions of the person making the observations.

So @Ayvah nails it:

Quote
he regularly has to grapple with the consequences of failing to choose the lesser evil, until eventually he learns the importance of making the lesser evil choice (but carefully). Comparing it to US politics, thematically you can see it as essentially roasting anyone who sat out of the 2016 US election because "both sides are bad"

Exactly right. It's a worldview in which one takes the world as it is and reacts to it instead of one that thinks of politics in terms of visions becoming concrete. Which view -- ST: TNG / Witcher -- seems the more nuanced and sophisticated depends on your familiarity with and adherence to the given worldview. We know our opinions best and as a result they seem more layered and more sophisticated than the views we oppose. "you need to vote for the lesser evil" is an expression of a commonly held worldview. For people who hold this worldview not choosing the lesser evil is a expression of naivete at best or stupidity at worst. The realists believe they see things that others do not and believe that their decisions are multi layered and complex. People who oppose that worldview likewise believe that the positions of the political realists are based in illusions and that they are blind to assumptions they have and how they deliberately limited their political visions. One side sees layers, the other side believes their opponents suffer from tunnel vision. Both believe their opinion to be the more sophisticated of the two and both believe the other to ignorant of some aspect of reality.

And I think this "lesser evil" world view is being promoted and maintained by videogames, movies and tv shows; I do think it has a political message leads us to accept 'morally grey' actions by powerful figures. I think Faerun is one of the last holdouts in popular media I want the FR to keep to a style of play where people adopt a moral vision and have it challenged.

(a priest of Bhaal who doesn't murder the grove should face consequences and same goes for any life cleric who does choose to murder everyone)

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It's just more lifelike, nothing is black and white. When a game features alignment, me and the game disagree too often on what is good and what is evil, or if ''good'' is even diserable outcome in the first place

To me alignment and the gods give life to the realms and the realms suffer when they are removed. Of course removing alignment doesn't make Faerun into Westeros but it does slide a bit further down that continuum. I like both settings.

Did you ever see Troy? Great sword and sandals flick. I loved it -- I thought the 'realistic', gritty view of the Trojan war spoke to the current day because it was a story about a culture that had been at war for years on end and how that changed the people fighting the war. If anything I wanted them to more with Achilles as the war scarred man. But was it more lifelike or sophisticated than the original? I would say: no. Emphatically.

The original was more sophisticated * because the war was the instantiation of a battle between the gods. It just had elements to the story that the original cut out. For the Greeks the battle between Achilles and Hector was a divine battle. On one side you had the favored of Aries fighting to avenge his fallen lover and you had the favored of Aphrodite and Hera fighting for home and hearth. So equally matched are the two forces that Zeus himself need to show up at the end of day to decide the winner. Pederatic love and lust for battle are stronger forces than romantic love and the love of home; for the Greeks Zeus + Aries > Aphrodite + Hera.

Or to take another example -- the sword fight between Luke and Darth Vader in the Return of the Jedi is just a better sword fight than the one between Obi Wan and Vader in Episode III because of 'alignment'. In the first the battle is symbolic of the battle between the light and dark sides of the force. Our hero finds out that the emperor is right -- by striking out in anger, by giving into the dark side, Luke is able to best the better swordsman. Only to realize that he is becoming that which he opposes. So he turns back to the light, puts aside anger and desire for vengeance and suffers the consequences. Only to be saved by the redemptive power of paternal love. Here the moral of the Illiad is turned on its head. Home > Lust for power.

The Episode III fight is a visual treat but it's kinda forgettable because instead of a fight between dark and light we have a contemporary reading -- in a series of lore breaking lines Obi Wan states that the Sith are evil and Vader says that the Jedi are evil. Instead of a story about the battle between two very real cosmic forces we get a contemporary story about how warring forces tend to demonize the other. More familiar? Yes. More relevant to current politics? Perhaps. More lifelike? I say no. Emphatically.

Oh, sorry if I misrepresented your views on Mithara. I don't think I represented the views of every Minthara fan -- some have explicitly said they like the notion of reward. Not trying to shame -- one's kinks are one's kinks smile


Quote
* 1 : deprived of native or original simplicity: such as
a : highly complicated or developed : complex sophisticated electronic devices


2. : devoid of grossness: such as

b : intellectually appealing
a sophisticated novel

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sophisticated
Posted By: Sozz Re: Fan club of Minthara - 22/01/21 10:04 PM
Originally Posted by Kadajko
Originally Posted by Sozz
Describe what that looks like, so I can be sure I know what we're talking about.

Not all, but a lot of dark side choices in kotor, renegade in mass effect, bad karma in fallout, karma in fable etc. As opposed to "evil" choices in something like Tyranny.
Would you feel differently about those games if they didn't keep track of your "karma" with an abstract point system?
Posted By: Kadajko Re: Fan club of Minthara - 22/01/21 10:09 PM
Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
And I think this "lesser evil" world view is being promoted and maintained by videogames, movies and tv shows; I do think it has a political message leads us to accept 'morally grey' actions by powerful figures. I think Faerun is one of the last holdouts in popular media I want the FR to keep to a style of play where people adopt a moral vision and have it challenged.

Ah, here we go, your opinion is not related to D&D at all, it's related to your real life political views and your views on perceived agendas.
Posted By: KillerRabbit Re: Fan club of Minthara - 22/01/21 10:12 PM
Originally Posted by Kadajko
Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
And I think this "lesser evil" world view is being promoted and maintained by videogames, movies and tv shows; I do think it has a political message leads us to accept 'morally grey' actions by powerful figures. I think Faerun is one of the last holdouts in popular media I want the FR to keep to a style of play where people adopt a moral vision and have it challenged.

Ah, here we go, your opinion is not related to D&D at all, it's related to your real life political views and your views on perceived agendas.

And yours are separable? If so, I'm impressed you must have the gods on your side wink I don't think you -- or anyone -- can provide a definition of "lifelike" that doesn't reflect ones view of what life is like. Right?






(and I never use the word 'agenda'. Silly word)
Posted By: Kadajko Re: Fan club of Minthara - 22/01/21 10:14 PM
Originally Posted by Sozz
Not all, but a lot of dark side choices in kotor, renegade in mass effect, bad karma in fallout, karma in fable etc. As opposed to "evil" choices in something like Tyranny.
Would you feel differently about those games if they didn't keep track of your "karma" with an abstract point system?[/quote]

A little bit, but it's still this kind of system that resulted in not enough meaningful contrasting choices. I believe that if the game was build from ground up without said abstract point system the choices would be different and better as a result, not that there is anything wrong with choices that allow the player to be a sadistic psychopath, but it wouldn't be the only contrast to heroic options.
Posted By: KillerRabbit Re: Fan club of Minthara - 22/01/21 10:18 PM
Also, you needed to ignore my examples to force that square peg of a conclusion into the round hole of my post. smile

In both instances I concluded that the more sophisticated story was the less politically relevant. In each case I decided that the more fantastic was better.

The larger point is that "grey morality" is more lifelike is a political / philosophical position that doesn't like to acknowledge itself as such.
Posted By: fylimar Re: Fan club of Minthara - 22/01/21 10:20 PM
Originally Posted by OneManArmy
Originally Posted by Kadajko
Originally Posted by Ayvah
I think it's just that Minthara is hotter than Shadowheart. She is more conventionally feminine in appearance, at least.

Strange, I feel like the polar opposite, but maybe that's because Shadowhearts personality is much more feminine. And that's actually the reason I like Minthara more, not a fan of effeminate females.

I think Minthara is feminine, which is great. Femininity is not necessary should be an archetype "Damsel in distress"

She can be sentimental and sweet in certain moments, strong and confident in some moments, cruel sadistic in some, but at the same time remains feminine. Masculinity is Cassandra of the Dragon Age of the Inquisition, a hideous character. Minthara is fine with that.


Femininity should never and does never mean damsel in distress. That is just a trope, I hope, we will get rid off soon.

As for Cassandra: she is not only a very feminine character, she is also imo one of the most interesting female companions in video games.
Posted By: Kadajko Re: Fan club of Minthara - 22/01/21 10:21 PM
Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
And yours are separable? If so, I'm impressed you must have the gods on your side wink I don't think you -- or anyone -- can provide a definition of "lifelike" that doesn't reflect ones view of what life is like. Right?

The way I want morality to be more like it is in the real world is the same I want gravity in the game to be more or less believable. Yes, we can have cartoony physics and allow everyone to jump like mario, that results in some level of goofiness, implementation of objective morality has the same effect, though I like magic in my games I still prefer the rest of the aspects, which exist in real life, to be more or less grounded in reality.

Objective morality does not exist in real life, same as there is no food that is objectively delicious, it varies from individual to individual. Yes you could create a fantasy world in which all foods would be on a hierarchy of taste, and EVERY SINGLE character would consider the same foods to be delicious, but why would you do that?
Posted By: Kadajko Re: Fan club of Minthara - 22/01/21 10:24 PM
Originally Posted by fylimar
Femininity should never and does never mean damsel in distress. That is just a trope, I hope, we will get rid off soon.

Vulnerability is one of the aspects of femininity though. Negative aspect, but still.
Posted By: KillerRabbit Re: Fan club of Minthara - 22/01/21 10:34 PM
Quote
Yes you could create a fantasy world in which all foods would be on a hierarchy of taste, and EVERY SINGLE character would consider the same foods to be delicious, but why would you do that?

This example confuses me. How, in Bhaal's name, does alignment lead to uniformity of taste? It seems to do the opposite -- you have set of flavors. If you like Lawful good = lemon / Neutral = oatmeal / Chaotic neutral = ghost pepper. Right? Differences as opposed to uniform grey mush?

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The way I want morality to be more like it is in the real world is the same I want gravity in the game to be more or less believable.

My point is

a. that worldview is just that -- a world view. What seems realistic to you is informed by your view of the world.

There are opposing moral system --

Grey morality : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Realism_(international_relations)
Principles should inform actions: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_justice

b. I don't want want my game to be a (more or less) accurate reflection of the real world. I want gods. Magic. Supernatural forces. Planes of existence.
Posted By: Sozz Re: Fan club of Minthara - 22/01/21 10:35 PM
I love it when the Illiad comes up in a Minthara thread smile @KillerRabbit <3
Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
... For the Greeks the battle between Achilles and Hector was a divine battle. On one side you had the favored of Aries fighting to avenge his fallen lover and you had the favored of Aphrodite and Hera fighting for home and hearth. So equally matched are the two forces that Zeus himself need to show up at the end of day to decide the winner. Pederatic love and lust for battle are stronger forces than romantic love and the love of home; for the Greeks Zeus + Aries > Aphrodite + Hera.

Or to take another example -- the sword fight between Luke and Darth Vader in the Return of the Jedi is just a better sword fight than the one between Obi Wan and Vader in Episode III because of 'alignment'. In the first the battle is symbolic of the battle between the light and dark sides of the force. Our hero finds out that the emperor is right -- by striking out in anger, by giving into the dark side, Luke is able to best the better swordsman. Only to realize that he is becoming that which he opposes. So he turns back to the light, puts aside anger and desire for vengeance and suffers the consequences. Only to be saved by the redemptive power of paternal love. Here the moral of the Illiad is turned on its head. Home > Lust for power.

The Episode III fight is a visual treat but it's kinda forgettable because instead of a fight between dark and light we have a contemporary reading -- in a series of lore breaking lines Obi Wan states that the Sith are evil and Vader says that the Jedi are evil. Instead of a story about the battle between two very real cosmic forces we get a contemporary story about how warring forces tend to demonize the other. More familiar? Yes. More relevant to current politics? Perhaps. More lifelike? I say no. Emphatically.

Oh, sorry if I misrepresented your views on Mithara. I don't think I represented the views of every Minthara fan -- some have explicitly said they like the notion of reward. Not trying to shame -- one's kinks are one's kinks smile
For the Greeks, Achilles choosing to fight that battle is a tragedy. Greek heroes are ones who are forced to destroy themselves in order to preserve their own honor, this need to preserve honor extends even to the Gods who are willing to allow terrible things happen for the same reasons, Hector killed (unwittingly) Patroclus so he is technically as culpable as Achilles. Another facet of the Illiad that you don't typically get is just how long the Greeks have been waging war, After the focus of Achilles' slighted honor turns from Agamemnon to the Trojans, he is no longer behaving like an honorable Greek, killing Trojans who surrendered, unthinkable at the start of the war, now happens, as the Greeks find themselves resenting having to fight for so long to appease the pride of one of their Kings. And don't forget what becomes of Agamemnon either.

Spot on about the saber fights in Star Wars and Jedi, though another thing people seem to forget about Luke is that he is forging his own path here, both Obi-Wan and Yoda believe Vader unredeemable and council Luke to kill Vader, good thing he listens to the Force and not some ghosts.

I'm no fan of the Prequels, let that be clear, but I think that the whole point of the Emperor's scheme is to make people and Anakin in particular call into question the very issue that we're talking about here, if morality can be subjective then how can the Jedi be righteous actors, not a lot of the films support this but I think it's a good concept and a great way of getting a good person to delude himself into evil actions. Anakin's fear of losing Padme makes him into a tyrant, if only he was a likable character first.
Posted By: DiDiDi Re: Fan club of Minthara - 22/01/21 10:40 PM
Originally Posted by Kadajko
So what is the problem?
I have edited my previous post, but to be clear: I generally agree with the vibe that the romances in their current state are
  • forced - Especially in playthroughs where you don't talk with your companions much. Take Lae'zel: "We don't really know each other, we are completely different species (by the way, as a Githyanki I'm a bit of a Nazi and consider you an enslavement-worthy Untermensch race) and you have given me absolutely no notion that you like me (especially not in that way), nor did I give you any notion that I like you (the opposite, if anything), but you made the tiefling kiss my boots, you let the snake kill the tiefling kid and you drank water from the well that smelled like rotting corpses, so let's f**k!" The dialogue when you do not have enough approval or choose someone else is even cringier. Other companions seem (slightly) better and it seems less out of place if you always try to exhaust all the dialogue options with that specific companion, but it still feels forced AF.
  • unnuanced / obviously gamified / scripted - You either have enough approval points at the specific time (the celebration), or you don't. ROMANCE variable is either true, or false. ROMANCE_COMPANION variable can be set to exactly one person and everyone immediately knows who it is and reacts to your choice in their dialogue - but don't worry! Even if you are completely dumb, we will actually let you choose your "romance" companion again when you go to sleep. My job as a software developer may be a factor here, but this feels like lazy scripting, not just writing.
  • progressing too fast - This may be due to EA being only Act I and the romance arcs being "compressed" to only that one act, as lots of the dialogues would make more sense in later parts of the game. Also, the way the game currently handles (well, ignores) time progression may be a factor here as it is kinda hard to understand where in terms of knowing you and each other the companions stand - dialogues (and banters between the chars) give you some clue, but really, depending on how much you abuse the rest/camping system, you may reach the celebration part in a week or 2 months and there is no difference (other than not resting enough may make you miss some dialogues).


Originally Posted by Kadajko
Originally Posted by DiDiDi
it was not _just_ a collection of campsite story progression-based dialogs rewarding you with fanficty dialogs/cutscenes if you collected enough "I like you" points.
Romances start without people liking each other? Why are you collecting points? Your character doesn't have an opinion? Are you not roleplaying?
You are clearly attacking a straw man. I have not suggested any of these things. Please respond honestly & without fallacies or not at all, I have no intention of wasting my time on responses whose author's intent is not providing honest feedback & discussion to improve the final game. As for "liking each other": Approval as it is currently implemented is a very broad measurement of the char's agreement with PC's choices in the story (you know, "approval") and using it also as a "romance-o-meter" causes lots of issues. Someone agreeing with your actions does not necessarily correspond to them liking you in a romantic way - that should be rather obvious. If anything, some minimal amount of approval should be required for the romance to start, but honestly, the romances need a more sophisticated scripting & writing or something like KOTOR 2 influence (which, when high enough, allowed you to sway the characters to either side, thus actually changing what the chars "approve of").

Originally Posted by Kadajko
Haven't romanced anyone in that game.
Which may mean:
  • BG2 (not sure about Beamdog's versions) does not force you into any romance - Which is a GOOD thing. Comparatively, BG3 kinda pushes you into a romance/ONS (when you go to sleep during the celebration) - or at least cringy "my/your loss" dialogues.
  • Wrong combination of companions/race/gender - This depends, but I generally like romances implemented as something optional (or borderline secret) that is not easy to achieve (or the very opposite, the romance being pivotal to the main story of the game, but that is clearly not the case here). More believable than making sure that there is someone for everybody, which cannot usually be done without the story/logic/writing/believability suffering too much.


Funnily enough, I mostly agree with you regarding the alignment debate here. Trying gamify someone's personality&morals and force them to one (out of nine) boxes seems dumb for a lot of interesting characters and I have never really understood the need to do that for the player & main characters in a (P&P or computer) role-playing game, though it may be useful to define non-important characters for DMs when playing adventure settings from the books (because you don't have 4 pages to characterize their personality). That being said, alignment played a minimal role in BG1/2 and (with a few exceptions) could be completely ignored. 5e makes it clear that it is a very broad characterization that should not limit the players.

Your arguments about alignment make it even more puzzling for me to understand how can you be OK with the current system of romances: "collect enough approval points for the companions you like and select the one you want to see a soft-porn scene with". (Shadowheart's romance, which does not involve sex, makes the most sense to me, but it still does feel forced/gamified if you didn't bother with most of her dialogues before).
Posted By: Kadajko Re: Fan club of Minthara - 22/01/21 10:41 PM
Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
This example confuses me. How, in Bhaal's name, does alignment lead to uniformity of taste? It seems to do the opposite -- you have set of flavors. If you like Lawful good = lemon / Neutral = oatmeal / Chaotic neutral = ghost pepper. Right? Differences as opposed to uniform grey mush?

It is uniformity of opinions, EVERYONE knows what is good and what is evil, every god, every mortal the universe itself, it is objective.

Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
that worldview is just that -- a world view. What seems realistic to you is informed by your view of the world.

Let's not have this full discussion, since it would be too far off-topic, but I will ask you a single question:

Could you provide to me rational and logical arguments that would suggest that objective morality can exist in the real world? Because I can provide such arguments for it's absense.
Posted By: Yawgmoth Re: Fan club of Minthara - 22/01/21 10:46 PM
Well well well! i was looking at this thread just some days ago waiting more fans and i found an awesome discussion about the whole alignement system etc etc!

I really enjoy all of you discussing about it and i try to make my own opinion about it since well, i never took my time thinking about alignement system because i always played all the pc games of D&d and never at the tabletop.

So for me evil is doing evil things and good is preventing evil doing the evil things and sometimes helping others and so on.

I am an huge fan of the Drow Romance in the previous game and the whole "redeem arc" was optional just so you know, i replayed specifically Bg2 multiple times and romanced Viconia and my favourite romance option was to play an evil character and don't redeem her (also because to me redeem Viconia make her lose the part i love about Viconia, bein a ruthless, strong leading woman and independent. So it give me the impression to broke her making the whole redeem).

I hope the same here with Minthara but butchering a whole village isn't starting material for a redemption arc, its sound like a one ticket straight to hell with Minthara!

I mean if you are roleplaying character in no possible way you could side with Minthara ever! So that's lead you to being an evil character and here the problem, why a selfish character should help those cult of tadpole controlled if there isn't a real personal gain?? Larian should give the evil player more reasons to join Minthara.
Posted By: Ayvah Re: Fan club of Minthara - 22/01/21 10:49 PM
Originally Posted by Kadajko
Objective morality does not exist in real life, same as there is no food that is objectively delicious, it varies from individual to individual. Yes you could create a fantasy world in which all foods would be on a hierarchy of taste, and EVERY SINGLE character would consider the same foods to be delicious, but why would you do that?
I disagree that there's no such thing as objective morality. However, it is impossible to make objective moral statements without a full understanding of context.

God: Thou shalt not kill
Me: But what if someone's trying to kill me? What if they're trying to eat my baby?
God: Well, self-defence is okay
Me: But what if I could have easily avoided the situation?
God: Well, maybe you should have tried to avoid it then. Jesus.
Me: So when can I kill?
God: I think you're kind of missing the point here...
Me: So what is the point then? Can I kill or not?
God: Well try not to kill people if you can avoid it.
Me: But what if I like it?
God: Well... maybe you shouldn't like killing. That seems kind of weird. I dunno.
Me: Oh. Okay then.
God: Oh, and heathens. They deserve it. You can kill all the heathens.
Posted By: Kadajko Re: Fan club of Minthara - 22/01/21 10:51 PM
Originally Posted by DiDiDi
I have edited my previous post, but to be clear: I generally agree with the vibe that the romances in their current state are
  • forced - Especially in playthroughs where you don't talk with your companions much. Take Lae'zel: "We don't really know each other, we are completely different species (by the way, as a Githyanki I'm a bit of a Nazi and consider you an enslavement-worthy Untermensch race) and you have given me absolutely no notion that you like me (especially not in that way), nor did I give you any notion that I like you (the opposite, if anything), but you made the tiefling kiss my boots, you let the snake kill the tiefling kid and you drank water from the well that smelled like rotting corpses, so let's f**k!" The dialogue when you do not have enough approval or choose someone else is even cringier. Other companions seem (slightly) better and it seems less out of place if you always try to exhaust all the dialogue options with that specific companion, but it still feels forced AF.
  • unnuanced / obviously gamified / scripted - You either have enough approval points at the specific time (the celebration), or you don't. ROMANCE variable is either true, or false. ROMANCE_COMPANION variable can be set to exactly one person and everyone immediately knows who it is and reacts to your choice in their dialogue - but don't worry! Even if you are completely dumb, we will actually let you choose your "romance" companion again when you go to sleep. My job as a software developer may be a factor here, but this feels like lazy scripting, not just writing.
  • progressing too fast - This may be due to EA being only Act I and the romance arcs being "compressed" to only that one act, as lots of the dialogues would make more sense in later parts of the game. Also, the way the game currently handles (well, ignores) time progression may be a factor here as it is kinda hard to understand where in terms of knowing you and each other the companions stand - dialogues (and banters between the chars) give you some clue, but really, depending on how much you abuse the rest/camping system, you may reach the celebration part in a week or 2 months and there is no difference (other than not resting enough may make you miss some dialogues).

Hmm, yep, fair points. Alright I understand where you are coming from.

Originally Posted by DiDiDi
Someone agreeing with your actions does not necessarily correspond to them liking you in a romantic way - that should be rather obvious.

I have to say, quite a few options are not romantic in nature, but more of a ''let's fck to blow off some steam after battle.'' In which case the only plothole would be if you created a character that is not very pretty.

Originally Posted by DiDiDi
Wrong combination of companions/race/gender - This depends, but I generally like romances implemented as something optional (or borderline secret) that is not easy to achieve (or the very opposite, the romance being pivotal to the main story of the game, but that is clearly not the case here). More believable than making sure that there is someone for everybody, which cannot usually be done without the story/logic/writing/believability suffering too much.

This was the case, and I like Minthara more than any party member currently.

Originally Posted by DiDiDi
our arguments about alignment make it even more puzzling for me to understand how can you be OK with the current system of romances: "collect enough approval points for the companions you like and select the one you want to see a soft-porn scene with".

I don't know.. maybe my bar is very low, romances are a little extra that I don't really expect much from, I headcannon and rolpelay for it to make sense. It's just that romance in an RPG is like car driving and shooting in GTA, Need for speed and Call of duty do it better, but it's not the whole point of GTA, there is a whole seperate video game genre dedicated to romance.
Posted By: Sozz Re: Fan club of Minthara - 22/01/21 10:52 PM
Originally Posted by Kadajko
Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
This example confuses me. How, in Bhaal's name, does alignment lead to uniformity of taste? It seems to do the opposite -- you have set of flavors. If you like Lawful good = lemon / Neutral = oatmeal / Chaotic neutral = ghost pepper. Right? Differences as opposed to uniform grey mush?

It is uniformity of opinions, EVERYONE knows what is good and what is evil, every god, every mortal the universe itself, it is objective.

Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
that worldview is just that -- a world view. What seems realistic to you is informed by your view of the world.

Let's not have this full discussion, since it would be too far off-topic, but I will ask you a single question:

Could you provide to me rational and logical arguments that would suggest that objective morality can exist in the real world? Because I can provide such arguments for it's absense.
You can't be serious about this question, most of Western Civilization is about ascertaining the truest or most efficient system of morality, you can not believe in any of them but being a Nihilist just puts you around the turn of the last century.
Posted By: Kadajko Re: Fan club of Minthara - 22/01/21 10:54 PM
Originally Posted by Ayvah
I disagree that there's no such thing as objective morality. However, it is impossible to make objective moral statements without a full understanding of context.

We can come to different conclusions, having the whole context.
Posted By: Kadajko Re: Fan club of Minthara - 22/01/21 10:56 PM
Originally Posted by Sozz
You can't be serious about this question, most of Western Civilization is about ascertaining the truest or most efficient system of morality, you can not believe in any of them but being a Nihilist just puts you around the turn of the last century.

Efficient and right / wrong are two different things. You can come up with a system that you think works best, without believing that it is universily true and right.
Posted By: DiDiDi Re: Fan club of Minthara - 22/01/21 11:04 PM
Originally Posted by Kadajko
I don't know.. maybe my bar is very low, romances are a little extra that I don't really expect much from, I headcannon and rolpelay for it to make sense. It's just that romance in an RPG is like car driving and shooting in GTA, Need for speed and Call of duty do it better, but it's not the whole point of GTA, there is a whole seperate video game genre dedicated to romance.
Fair enough. The thing is, if the quality of the romance(s) is low, I would very much rather see Larian spend their limited time & effort somewhere else, not on another cringy low quality fan service romance.

That being said, at least Shadowheart's romance seems to have a potential to be something better than that.
Posted By: OneManArmy Re: Fan club of Minthara - 22/01/21 11:07 PM
Originally Posted by DiDiDi
OM(F)G, this thread fills me with dread. I certainly hope that BG3 will not turn out to be fan service for waifu-worshipping incels. The way romances are currently handled in EA is not great, which adds to the fear.

That being said, Minthara could be made into a fine party member for evil MCs. But there already is a cleric that seems compatible with all kinds of good/neutral/evil playthroughs. Maybe joining the Absolute (if that kind of play-through/choice is possible) will alienate almost all party members (except Astarion, maybe?) and Minthara will replace Shadowheart in that case...

You speak as if having a waifu is something bad.

If a player has a desire to waifu-worshiping, then the game designer and writer have done an excellent job, and the players really like the character.

I agree that more attention needs to be paid to personality, character quests, decisions, various joint adventures, emotional aspects of relationships, a possible arc of redemption and much more, it shouldn't be just about sex and kinks. But it should be too.
Posted By: OneManArmy Re: Fan club of Minthara - 22/01/21 11:08 PM
Originally Posted by DiDiDi
Originally Posted by Kadajko
I don't know.. maybe my bar is very low, romances are a little extra that I don't really expect much from, I headcannon and rolpelay for it to make sense. It's just that romance in an RPG is like car driving and shooting in GTA, Need for speed and Call of duty do it better, but it's not the whole point of GTA, there is a whole seperate video game genre dedicated to romance.
Fair enough. The thing is, if the quality of the romance(s) is low, I would very much rather see Larian spend their limited time & effort somewhere else, not on another cringy low quality fan service romance.

So do I. We demand a very high quality.

I know Larian will be able to give us that quality and detail. I want them to do the best romance in video game history. Romances for Astarion and Minthara deserve to be very inspiring.

There must be tears of happiness in the credits for the game to elicit a positive emotional response and remembered for a long time.
Posted By: Sozz Re: Fan club of Minthara - 22/01/21 11:09 PM
Originally Posted by Kadajko
Originally Posted by Sozz
You can't be serious about this question, most of Western Civilization is about ascertaining the truest or most efficient system of morality, you can not believe in any of them but being a Nihilist just puts you around the turn of the last century.

Efficient and right / wrong are two different things. You can come up with a system that you think works best, without believing that it is universily true and right.
I said true or efficient but I think in either case you're being a little obtuse. And coming up with a system of your own with out it being universally applicable is Existentialism, so there's some overlap with Nihilism.
Posted By: Ayvah Re: Fan club of Minthara - 22/01/21 11:11 PM
Waifu all the things!

Let's even have an Omeluum waifu for the most adventurous BG3 players. Mmmm. Tentacles.

lol.
Posted By: OneManArmy Re: Fan club of Minthara - 22/01/21 11:12 PM
Originally Posted by Ayvah
Waifu all the things!

Let's even have an Omeluum waifu for the most adventurous BG3 players. Mmmm. Tentacles.

lol.

Tentacles! The Japanese will love it.
Posted By: fylimar Re: Fan club of Minthara - 22/01/21 11:13 PM
Originally Posted by Kadajko
Originally Posted by fylimar
Femininity should never and does never mean damsel in distress. That is just a trope, I hope, we will get rid off soon.

Vulnerability is one of the aspects of femininity though. Negative aspect, but still.

It's a verytraditional worldview, that does not hold much truth. Gladly in modern media the vulnerability and damsel in distress trope is used less and less. I think in BG 3 they do a pretty good job with the female companions so far in that regard (in other games too). Ironically I can't say much about Minthara, I only watched her scenes on YouTube, but she doesn't seem fall into that trope either.

I didn't want to get off the trail with the alignment discussion, which seems to be pretty lively atm.
I think to not give the companions alignment tags is not a bad thing. Let their actions speak for them.
Posted By: Sozz Re: Fan club of Minthara - 22/01/21 11:19 PM
Where was this romance discussion during my Herosexual PC thread! I would have loved to seen it there :p
I think romance shouldn't be considered the obligatory add-on that it seems to have become in most RPGs, either do it all the way, or don't do it at all.

You could even have the MC be in a relationship from the jump and then the player would have total control over how much such a relationship would play a role in the narrative based entirely on how much they're interested in pursuing it. What we get now more often then not is awkward, unnatural or convoluted ways to shoehorn it in.
Posted By: Sozz Re: Fan club of Minthara - 22/01/21 11:26 PM
Originally Posted by fylimar
Originally Posted by Kadajko
Originally Posted by fylimar
Femininity should never and does never mean damsel in distress. That is just a trope, I hope, we will get rid off soon.

Vulnerability is one of the aspects of femininity though. Negative aspect, but still.

It's a verytraditional worldview, that does not hold much truth. Gladly in modern media the vulnerability and damsel in distress trope is used less and less. I think in BG 3 they do a pretty good job with the female companions so far in that regard (in other games too). Ironically I can't say much about Minthara, I only watched her scenes on YouTube, but she doesn't seem fall into that trope either.

I didn't want to get off the trail with the alignment discussion, which seems to be pretty lively atm.
I think to not give the companions alignment tags is not a bad thing. Let their actions speak for them.
If it didn't exist as a facet of femininity the we wouldn't get all those femme fatales that use it to seduce or suborn hapless do-gooders, nor would we get women who play off these tropes in other ways.
I don't see how these things need to be treated as a zero-sum, having a damsel in distress in your story doesn't stop other representations of femininity from happening. I don't think it denigrates womankind either as if everyone has to have their shit together to take part in a story.
Posted By: KillerRabbit Re: Fan club of Minthara - 22/01/21 11:31 PM
Originally Posted by Sozz
I love it when the Illiad comes up in a Minthara thread smile @KillerRabbit <3
For the Greeks, Achilles choosing to fight that battle is a tragedy. Greek heroes are ones who are forced to destroy themselves in order to preserve their own honor, this need to preserve honor extends even to the Gods who are willing to allow terrible things happen for the same reasons, Hector killed (unwittingly) Patroclus so he is technically as culpable as Achilles. Another facet of the Illiad that you don't typically get is just how long the Greeks have been waging war, After the focus of Achilles' slighted honor turns from Agamemnon to the Trojans, he is no longer behaving like an honorable Greek, killing Trojans who surrendered, unthinkable at the start of the war, now happens, as the Greeks find themselves resenting having to fight for so long to appease the pride of one of their Kings. And don't forget what becomes of Agamemnon either.

Exactly right. I think the film did a good job with by showing Achilles' dragging Hector's corpse for so long. Such is the tragedy of the war mad man -- he cannot find satisfaction even in victory. There is a very Greek warning about the dangers of excess in that part of the tale -- Achilles has become drunk on war and it's a horrible sight. I'd like to see another adaptation that focuses on the elements you mention. That this war has gone on forever and really emphasizing how tragic it see Achilles captured by a single passion. It's time to drink and have sex why won't he let the battle end . . .

Quote
Spot on about the saber fights in Star Wars and Jedi, though another thing people seem to forget about Luke is that he is forging his own path here, both Obi-Wan and Yoda believe Vader unredeemable and council Luke to kill Vader, good thing he listens to the Force and not some ghosts.

Good point!

Yeah, I do agree there is some messaging in Episode III which was the best of the prequels. I think among other things Lucas had just lost his fondness for eastern philosophy and thus the ability to weave an interesting tale about the force.

(the let go Padme advice that Yoda gives is very Buddhist but the audience leaves that scene thinking that Yoda screwed by recommending such bitter medicine)
Posted By: KillerRabbit Re: Fan club of Minthara - 22/01/21 11:40 PM
Originally Posted by Kadajko
Could you provide to me rational and logical arguments that would suggest that objective morality can exist in the real world? Because I can provide such arguments for it's absense.

I am (sincerely) sorry to disappoint Sozz but in real life I, as I do suspect you, believe that morality is a socio-historical construct and not the instantiation of divine or natural forces.


(although I do believe that morality has some naturalistic bases -- the ability to mentally reverse and put ourselves into the position of other and I'm at least open to possibility that the feeling of empathy has evolutionary origins. Humans are dependent (and annoying) for a very long time and something keeps most parents from tossing the little ones the cliff)

So do I have you right, are you a social constructionist? If so what gives you the confidence that you have an objective view of what morality is like in our world?
Posted By: KillerRabbit Re: Fan club of Minthara - 22/01/21 11:54 PM
Originally Posted by fylimar
I didn't want to get off the trail with the alignment discussion, which seems to be pretty lively atm.
I think to not give the companions alignment tags is not a bad thing. Let their actions speak for them.

I think the problem with just letting their actions speak for them is that there are gods watching the humans and trying to influence what they do. So use a phrase that I often hear against alignment (not from you) "why do you need labels"? "why put things into boxes"?

For me the answer to that goes back to the gods. Different gods control different aspects of the morality and want you act in a certain way. Shadowheart's story is interesting to me because her head and her heart are at odds. For a Sharran, the slaughter of the grove is good thing. One step closer to ending all life and bringing about eternal night.

Likewise Minthara likely worships a lawful evil deity (authority . . . Obey the drow . . . Obey Dror Ragzlin . . ) and so her decision to spare your life puts her at odds with deity.

Playing a cleric or paladin become less interesting when alignment is out of the picture.

And yeah, I'm like you. Had to youtube it. No way I'm going to play "slaughter the innocents"
Posted By: Kadajko Re: Fan club of Minthara - 22/01/21 11:54 PM
Originally Posted by fylimar
It's a verytraditional worldview, that does not hold much truth. Gladly in modern media the vulnerability and damsel in distress trope is used less and less. I think in BG 3 they do a pretty good job with the female companions so far in that regard (in other games too). Ironically I can't say much about Minthara, I only watched her scenes on YouTube, but she doesn't seem fall into that trope either.

It's not a traditional view, it's just an aspect of femininity. I've said this before, femininity =/= female, a male can also have vulnerability and that will be a feminine trait.

Minthara does not fall into this trope.

Originally Posted by Sozz
I said true or efficient but I think in either case you're being a little obtuse. And coming up with a system of your own with out it being universally applicable is Existentialism, so there's some overlap with Nihilism.

Do you understand that there is no such thing as universal morality? It exists in the mind of humans, and is different depending on the individual, it does not exist on a cosmic scale in a vacuum. I'm not saying that people ought to do whatever they want, there are clearly right and wrong actions withing the system of rules we created, but it is a social construct.

Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
I am (sincerely) sorry to disappoint Sozz but in real life I, as I do suspect you, believe that morality is a socio-historical construct and not the instantiation of divine or natural forces.

And that's all I am saying, and it is not a concept I want to be objective due to magic in video games.

Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
I'm at least open to possibility that the feeling of empathy has evolutionary origins.

Yes, empathy is an evolved mechanism to keep species that are not loners together to work for the greater benefit of all.

Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
So do I have you right, are you a social constructionist? If so what gives you the confidence that you have an objective view of what morality is like in our world?

Logic and reason. I am all ears to the alternatives, if it sounds better and more logical I will change my mind.
Posted By: KillerRabbit Re: Fan club of Minthara - 23/01/21 12:12 AM
Originally Posted by Kadajko
Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
So do I have you right, are you a social constructionist? If so what gives you the confidence that you have an objective view of what morality is like in our world?

Logic and reason. I am all ears to the alternatives, if it sounds better and more logical I will change my mind.

Well that would take in a direction you've said you don't want to go. As social constructionists we know that one cannot separate subject and object and any 'objective' viewpoint is filtered through the lens by which it is seen. I think the 'grey morality' view is one that is allied with or an expression of political realism. Which believes that morality is either impossible or undesirable.

I would mention that there is one minor but significant difference between our constructionist viewpoint -- one that resonates with the nihilist / existentialist distinction @sozz brought up.
Quote
It exists in the mind of humans, and is different depending on the individual, it does not exist on a cosmic scale in a vacuum.

I think that's overstated. I think points of agreement are codified in documents like the universal declaration of human rights and other such documents. We don't need to think that morality is the expression of a cosmic force to see that certain ethical / moral principles are spelled out in certain historically constructed artifacts.

But the core of disagreement (and it's been fun) boils down to this:
Quote
it is not a concept I want to be objective due to magic in video games.

To me the world become less interesting the less magical it gets. I want the power of the gods to turn away evil undead, I want smite devils with divine power. I want holy swords to hum with the power of objective goodness.

Make way evil!
Posted By: Kadajko Re: Fan club of Minthara - 23/01/21 12:20 AM
Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
I want the power of the gods to turn away evil undead,.

Why can't undead be turned by Gods who just hate them and whos magic is their kriptonite?

Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
I want smite devils with divine power.

You don't need alignment to do this.

Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
I want holy swords to hum with the power of objective goodness.

Why Goodness and not anti-devilness?

This all can happen without alignment. You can have a paladin in shiny armor fightning undead and devils, without the universe conformation that you are indeed objectively good.
Posted By: DiDiDi Re: Fan club of Minthara - 23/01/21 12:31 AM
Originally Posted by Kadajko
And that's all I am saying, and it is not a concept I want to be objective due to magic in video games.
Well, as much as I agree with you, BG3 is set in the D&D multiverse and good/evil & law/chaos IS an objective concept here - I don't exactly like that part, but it is what it is. So certainly the arguments for alignment are stronger here than in most other uni/multiverses. For instance, Raphael - a devil - is an essence of lawful evil, and actually must obey a very specific "truly lawful evil" morality - lawful evil mortals would generally have a much broader set of worldviews, behaviors and moralities than the devils and beings inherently connected to Baator.

So there are really no strict rules applying to mortals with free will, certainly not those races created by non-evil gods. And generally, in 5e, it is really not used much in mechanics, spells etc. Honestly, PC's alignment in 5e is a weird thing, e.g. read this rant if you have the time. The way alignment is handled in 5e makes me say: Screw alignment for all non-celestial/fiend characters, avoid if at all possible - but the objective nature of good, evil, law & chaos in the multiverse will manifest itself sometimes.
Posted By: KillerRabbit Re: Fan club of Minthara - 23/01/21 12:32 AM
Originally Posted by Kadajko
Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
I want the power of the gods to turn away evil undead,.

Why can't undead be turned by Gods who just hate them and whos magic is their kriptonite?

Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
I want smite devils with divine power.

You don't need alignment to do this.

Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
I want holy swords to hum with the power of objective goodness.

Why Goodness and not anti-devilness?

This all can happen without alignment. You can have a paladin in shiny armor fightning undead and devils, without the universe conformation that you are indeed objectively good.

Less interesting, innit? If you judge by memes / comics / mentions which do think is the more popular feature -- a ranger's favored enemy or divine smite?

Why do you think the big baddie is devil and an evil god? Why change gnolls from mutant hyenas to demonspawn? My answer is coolness. What's cooler -- an inherently evil book with forbidden knowledge that you should have read or that book that can't read because only nobles are allowed to read that stuff? I say the former.
Posted By: Ayvah Re: Fan club of Minthara - 23/01/21 12:33 AM
Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
So do I have you right, are you a social constructionist? If so what gives you the confidence that you have an objective view of what morality is like in our world?
I'm confused why you're addressing this question to Kadajko. I've been arguing this point much more strongly. lol.

It's social contract theory (cooperative self-interest). Basically, no one likes being murdered (ie killed without their consent), so we're all better off existing in a society that doesn't approve of murder. You can extrapolate an entire moral system from basic consequentialist social contract theory.

Of course, you can argue that if someone is in a position of power, like a king, then it would appear there is no social contract -- no consequences for him to be a tyrant. But if you change perspective and look at the perspective of the people who live in his kingdom, then they are compelled to overthrow a tyrant. As a consequence, a king ought to consider whether being a tyrant is in his best interest after all.

That said, just because there is an "objectively correct choice" based on social contract theory, that doesn't mean that you always have the information necessary to know which choice is the "objectively correct choice" and this is where we need to do our best within the limitations of our own subjectivity and risk-assessment.

What I object to is with a moral system in a game, it's almost always broken. For example:
  • You get good karma for doing an (stupid good) action like saving a murderer (who you know will murder again) and evil karma (normal good) for letting him die.
  • You get good karma for saving a town for money (normal evil), and evil karma (stupid evil) for burning it down for no reason.
  • You get good karma for eating your vegetables and bad karma for eating junk food. (Like WTF this isn't even really moral.)

Like, I think it's interesting to have "holiness" and "unholiness" points. This still allows for you to have things like "holy/righteous swords". But one of the things I enjoy is when holiness is explicitly shown not to be the same as morally good, and you're forced to make your own decisions instead of just having a code of ethics handed to you. smile
Posted By: OneManArmy Re: Fan club of Minthara - 23/01/21 12:37 AM
There have been no screenshots in this thread for a long time.
See how graceful and proud she is

[Linked Image from static1.srcdn.com]
Posted By: Kadajko Re: Fan club of Minthara - 23/01/21 12:40 AM
Originally Posted by DiDiDi
Well, as much as I agree with you, BG3 is set in the D&D multiverse and good/evil & law/chaos IS an objective concept here - I don't exactly like that part, but it is what it is.

I understand, I just express my vote for Wizards to move away from alignment, which they slowly are as I see.

Originally Posted by DiDiDi
For instance, Raphael - a devil - is an essence of lawful evil, and actually must obey a very specific "truly lawful evil" morality - lawful evil mortals would generally have a much broader set of worldviews, behaviors and moralities than the devils and beings inherently connected to Baator.

And you can very easily say that devils are just creatures in whos nature it is to keep their word, and that they lack empathy. Simple.

Originally Posted by DiDiDi
Why do you think the big baddie is devil and an evil god?

It is for the player to decide who the big baddie is, and it does not have to be an evil god or a devil, you are free to make choices.

Regardless, like I said, we can agree to disagree, I get your point, we just have different opinions on what is fun and cool and what is not, and there is nothing wrong with that. I think we need to get back, on topic, before the mods ask us to do so, this was fun but the derail is real. lol
Posted By: Kadajko Re: Fan club of Minthara - 23/01/21 12:45 AM
@OneManArmy

Minthara looks ok, but not going to lie, when it comes to appearence I am not the biggest fan, specially that hair, but I liked her character more so far.
Posted By: OneManArmy Re: Fan club of Minthara - 23/01/21 12:47 AM
Originally Posted by Kadajko
@OneManArmy

Minthara looks ok, but not going to lie, when it comes to appearence I am not the biggest fan, specially that hair, but I liked her character more so far.

I love her hair, but I'm interested to see how you see her hair. Are there examples? Perhaps, it really can be improved, show how you see it.
Posted By: Kadajko Re: Fan club of Minthara - 23/01/21 12:51 AM
Originally Posted by OneManArmy
I love her hair, but I'm interested to see how you see her hair. Are there examples? Perhaps, it really can be improved, show how you see it.

I'll have to mod it first, and I am not in a habbit of modding EA like a lot of people out there. lol

I understand the logic behind her hair, but I would prefer something less generic. I can show you the kind of hairstyles I like in CC if you want.

Edit: Actually never mind, I forgot that I downloaded the NPC heads mod. BRB.
Posted By: KillerRabbit Re: Fan club of Minthara - 23/01/21 12:56 AM
Originally Posted by Ayvah
I'm confused why you're addressing this question to Kadajko. I've been arguing this point much more strongly. lol.

Apologies, I had fun with Kadajko in another thread and that's probably why smile I'm going to chicken out a bit on social contract theory because I have lots of problems with it (see Carol Pateman if you want to know why) and that will get us waaaay off topic.

But to your examples:

What I object to is with a moral system in a game, it's almost always broken. For example:
  • You get good karma for doing an (stupid good) action like saving a murderer (who you know will murder again) and evil karma (normal good) for letting him die.
  • You get good karma for saving a town for money (normal evil), and evil karma (stupid evil) for burning it down for no reason.
  • You get good karma for eating your vegetables and bad karma for eating junk food. (Like WTF this isn't even really moral.)

Like, I think it's interesting to have "holiness" and "unholiness" points. This still allows for you to have things like "holy/righteous swords". But one of the things I enjoy is when holiness is explicitly shown not to be the same as morally good, and you're forced to make your own decisions instead of just having a code of ethics handed to you. smile[/quote]

Sure we can disagree with how well it's done but let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater. People disagree, disagreements lead to forum discussions and that's bad . . . why?

If you think the implementation is bad you ask the devs to change. Right now I've asked the Solasta devs to add a chaotic good option to list of responses. In the game you are deputized as council representative and you invade the castle of a necromancer to ask for a part of an artifact. When you finally make to the end boss you only have lawful good, lawful neutral and neutral responses. In the logic of the setting, getting the necromancer to hand over the artifact peacefully is lawful good because that's your mandate from the council. But I don't get to say "your evil ends here necromancer" even if that leads to greater evil down the road. My toon doesn't care about the council she is forced to deal with or their stupid laws, she wants to see evil get a smack down.

So I posted a request on the forums of devs. I want my option but I'd be even more upset if the only options left to me were grey morality ones. Because grey is dull color.

With any video game options are handed to you -- if you want to make up your own morality / own stories that's best done in a game without any dialogue options at all. Then you are free to make up any story you like about your toons. But I think we both agree that that would be boring, right?
Posted By: OneManArmy Re: Fan club of Minthara - 23/01/21 12:57 AM
Originally Posted by Kadajko
Originally Posted by OneManArmy
I love her hair, but I'm interested to see how you see her hair. Are there examples? Perhaps, it really can be improved, show how you see it.

I'll have to mod it first, and I am not in a habbit of modding EA like a lot of people out there. lol

I understand the logic behind her hair, but I would prefer something less generic. I can show you the kind of hairstyles I like in CC if you want.

Edit: Actually never mind, I forgot that I downloaded the NPC heads mod. BRB.

Come on. Show me, what hairstyle from the editor would you use for Minthara?
Posted By: DiDiDi Re: Fan club of Minthara - 23/01/21 12:58 AM
Originally Posted by Kadajko
And you can very easily say that devils are just creatures in whos nature it is to keep their word, and that they lack empathy. Simple.
Yeah, no. There is Blood War - an actual clash of (evil) Law and (evil) Chaos - the whole cosmology stuff etc.

You can certainly do away with alignment itself, many DMs using 5e actually already did just that (and I completely agree with it), but not the actual cosmology and the objective nature of g/e/l/c. Devils are evil manifestations of Law, always will be.
Posted By: KillerRabbit Re: Fan club of Minthara - 23/01/21 12:58 AM
Originally Posted by Kadajko
I think we need to get back, on topic, before the mods ask us to do so, this was fun but the derail is real. lol

True. But the OP got to increase page numbers and there's that.

On topic. Umm. I like that ring mail?

(but truth be told I prefer to smack her down and take her mace)
Posted By: Kadajko Re: Fan club of Minthara - 23/01/21 01:10 AM
Originally Posted by OneManArmy
Come on. Show me, what hairstyle from the editor would you use for Minthara?

Something like this:

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

Her head btw. A bit more elegant/proud and drow-like. Though like I said, I understand why her hair is messy, when she lives in a goblin camp.
Posted By: dwig Re: Fan club of Minthara - 23/01/21 01:17 AM
Paladin smite in 5e does not require target to be evil (or any other alignment).
Posted By: KillerRabbit Re: Fan club of Minthara - 23/01/21 01:23 AM
In the books Drizzt is said to have a 'mane' of hair so messy could just be the drow way

@dwig

Yeah, that's a bad move imo. Clearly there are people at WotC -- probably those employees that came from other, failed rulesets -- that have it out for alignment. They should have made paladins Lawful Good, Blackguards evil and added things like Champion of nature to get smite equivalents for other alignments.
Posted By: Sozz Re: Fan club of Minthara - 23/01/21 01:26 AM
Originally Posted by OneManArmy
There have been no screenshots in this thread for a long time.
See how graceful and proud she is

[Linked Image from static1.srcdn.com]
From this screenshot she looks a little bit like Marcos Inaros, the bad guy from the Expanse right now.
Posted By: DiDiDi Re: Fan club of Minthara - 23/01/21 01:30 AM
Originally Posted by Kadajko
I think we need to get back, on topic, before the mods ask us to do so, this was fun but the derail is real. lol
Yeah, off-topic is strong here. Time for me to bid farewell. smile I will just re-state my (here probably very unpopular) opinion:
  • This game absolutely does not need another romance. The existing romances need to be fixed/improved - even removing some of those in order to focus on the rest would be fine by me. Or remove ALL of them and focus on more important parts of the game (Waifu-worshippers, please don't kill me grin ). I mean, do ALL chars need to be romanceable by MC? Should they be, really? All are somehow hot singles in your area?
  • Minthara is a cool character, if there is an Absolute / actual True Soul playthrough, she would make sense as an alternative to SH (SH will attack you along with most of your companions once your allegiance is obvious or something like that)
  • No, Minthara as a party member does not imply you need to implement a romance with her beyond the scene already present. Regarding the scene (and other scenes as well): Please fix the glitches or remove it entirely (Waifu-worshippers, please don't kill me grin ).
  • Dear Larian, if you smell lots of money and decide to implement Minthara romance, please, don't give her a redemption arc or any BS like that, or "Larian's latest game Baldur's Gate 3 causes projectile vomiting in many gamers" will be an actual headline in newspaper...


Bye, everybody! See you in other threads.
Posted By: Kadajko Re: Fan club of Minthara - 23/01/21 01:37 AM
Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
In the books Drizzt is said to have a 'mane' of hair so messy could just be the drow way

Is that before or after he became homeless after running away?
Posted By: Sozz Re: Fan club of Minthara - 23/01/21 01:47 AM
Disregard my attempts to derail the conversation further
Posted By: Kadajko Re: Fan club of Minthara - 23/01/21 01:51 AM
Originally Posted by Sozz
Disregard my attempts to derail the conversation further

Too late already read. :p
Posted By: Ayvah Re: Fan club of Minthara - 23/01/21 01:53 AM
Minthara when you first meet her.
[Linked Image from c.radikal.ru]

Minthara after a successful charisma check.
[Linked Image from external-preview.redd.it]

Let it be so.
Posted By: Kadajko Re: Fan club of Minthara - 23/01/21 01:58 AM
Originally Posted by Ayvah
Minthara when you first meet her.
[Linked Image from c.radikal.ru]

Minthara after a successful charisma check.
[Linked Image from external-preview.redd.it]

Let it be so.

After you slaughter some children you mean?
Posted By: Sozz Re: Fan club of Minthara - 23/01/21 01:59 AM
Originally Posted by Kadajko
Originally Posted by Sozz
Disregard my attempts to derail the conversation further

Too late already read. :p
Curses! I'll get you next time Superman!
Posted By: Ayvah Re: Fan club of Minthara - 23/01/21 02:25 AM
Originally Posted by Kadajko
Originally Posted by Ayvah
Minthara when you first meet her.
[Linked Image from c.radikal.ru]

Minthara after a successful charisma check.
[Linked Image from external-preview.redd.it]

Let it be so.

After you slaughter some children you mean?
They had it coming.

Princess Minthara would never kill an innocent child. We all know they were up to something.
Posted By: OneManArmy Re: Fan club of Minthara - 23/01/21 06:46 AM
Originally Posted by Kadajko
Originally Posted by OneManArmy
Come on. Show me, what hairstyle from the editor would you use for Minthara?

Something like this:

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

Her head btw. A bit more elegant/proud and drow-like. Though like I said, I understand why her hair is messy, when she lives in a goblin camp.


I think it makes sense for her hairstyle to change over the course of the story when she lives with us in a castle full of servants, for example. Maybe there will be new clothes too (like Shadow Heart, sooner or later she will receive the same armor as on the official art, which means that Minthara's appearance may change during the game).

It's a bad idea to just change from the start of the game.
Posted By: Soulcatcher30 Re: Fan club of Minthara - 23/01/21 07:28 AM
Originally Posted by Ayvah
Minthara when you first meet her.
[Linked Image from c.radikal.ru]

Minthara after a successful charisma check.
[Linked Image from external-preview.redd.it]

Let it be so.
cute, heh
Posted By: OneManArmy Re: Fan club of Minthara - 23/01/21 08:51 AM
There is unverified information that Minthara was voiced by the same actress who voiced the female version of Commander Shepard - Jennifer Hale
https://jenniferhale.com

She also did voice acting for Baldurs Gate back in 1998

I wrote her this question, and I will let you know if she answers and confirms the information. Although the voice is very similar
Posted By: rdb100 Re: Fan club of Minthara - 23/01/21 01:03 PM
I agree that she needs a better hairstyle or a revamp later in the game. I'm assuming there's going to be a break from the companions once they reach Baldur's Gate, with practically everyone heading there for their own reasons. I'm hoping it'd give the PC a chance to explore and maybe reconnect with each NPC after some time has passed. I'm also really hoping they introduce guild storylines and that the city is at least as big as it was in BG2. I can't wait for the fights in the docks or alleys. Climbing the environment to break into houses, like a thieve's guild mission, would also be awesome. Maybe they introduce skill checks for large climbs or acrobatic stunts. I know that's Athkatla and not Baldur's Gate, but Baldur's Gate appears to be a much larger city with a much larger dock area:


[Linked Image from i.pinimg.com] Baldur's Gate Map

[Linked Image from mikesrpgcenter.com] Baldur's Gate in BG1

[Linked Image from mocagh.org]Athkatla in BG2

https://www.reddit.com/r/BaldursGat...solo_the_ea_version_are_there_plans_for/

That was my evil playthrough, siding with Minthara and getting the romance scene, just to be attacked right after and every goblin going hostile. Maybe I messed it up, but why let us go this far just to have them turn on us as well?

I support Minthara as a companion. I also hope they add at least a dozen more, or spread out the beginning characters more. I know it's sort of like Original Sin 2, where you can select a premade character with their own in-game story, but still. They don't even have alternate starts and it's literally walking into one right after the other in a span of 30 minutes. There are several good starting points for the initial "Origin" characters during act 1 besides piling them on the beach and nearby:

Astarion has a certain character (Gandrel) looking for him in the Fetid Bog. What if Gandrel was literally hunting him in the bog, and Astarion was either running or hunting him back? Also, what if Gandrel was another companion? He seems to have a better character made just to die after a short conversation.

Gale could pop out of any portal, so why there? I think the Blighted Village would make a little better choice. The tome is there to feed him and gives him a reason to be there (chasing after artifacts).

Lae'zel's capture seems fine, and Shadowheart, the other character you found in the start of the game, is in an ok spot. She could be moved further into the temple or really anywhere, though. She seems to have a big impact on the story, though, and is a cleric, so having her come up first isn't a bad idea.

So pretty much, you'd meet Shadowheart, then Lae'Zel, then Wyll, then Gale, and then Astarion. There's also any other companions they have in Act 1, like Minthara, Karlach, Gandrel, or Halsen.

https://www.reddit.com/r/BaldursGate3/comments/l1nhpc/an_evil_playthrough_vs_a_good_one/

Here's a recent Reddit discussion over the evil playthrough. Most people found it lacking but enjoyed having the option. I also support having a full evil and neutral playthrough besides just several good options. Right now, the evil playthrough seems to be the worst since the Goblins and Minthara go hostile at the end, so you basically have to kill everyone. For a chaotic evil character it makes sense, but not for a lawful evil one. I wanted to see how far I could go in the Absolute cult.

I am really hoping they expand each alignment's options so any character can have a good playthrough. I'm reading reports of potentially 16 different endings, and devs saying things like "you can't see all of the content in a single playthrough." I'm just hoping they include every alignment, and not just good/neutral/evil. I would like to be able to just convince the Tieflings, even though they're in the neutral camp with the druids, to just leave chaotically and let the goblins and druids duke it out.
Posted By: Ayvah Re: Fan club of Minthara - 24/01/21 02:30 PM
Originally Posted by OneManArmy
There is unverified information that Minthara was voiced by the same actress who voiced the female version of Commander Shepard - Jennifer Hale
https://jenniferhale.com

She also did voice acting for Baldurs Gate back in 1998

I wrote her this question, and I will let you know if she answers and confirms the information. Although the voice is very similar
I don't know what's led to this connection.

I've spent a lot of time listening to Jennifer Hale's acting (I've tended to actively seek out playing as characters she portrays).

I'm not aware of her ever "putting on a voice", but even if I'm listening for that, I can't hear her in Minthara at all. I would be very surprised if she's the actor.

Originally Posted by rdb100
I'm just hoping they include every alignment, and not just good/neutral/evil.
I think they should have options appropriate for a broad range of world views. But I don't know if they need to explicitly divide choices based on alignment. However, in this case I think you could argue it'd be interesting tohave a pre-Iron Man Tony Stark style of neutrality where you "make a deal" with the goblins/Minthara without directly participating in the slaughter of the druids and then pretend you had nothing to do with it.

Of course, I can imagine it might be nice to imagine a solution where you can broker peace between druid and goblin. However, that wouldn't be "neutral". It'd just mean that helping the druids is relatively less good and brokering peace is the "real" good path.

Also, I think "lawful/chaos" choices would just be nonsense. I mean, the goblins (before The Absolute) had laws. The Absolute has laws. Lolth has laws. Whose laws are you aligned in relation to?
Posted By: fylimar Re: Fan club of Minthara - 24/01/21 03:45 PM
Minthara is not listed under Jennifer Hales work. It would have surprised me Tbh, Minthara sounds nothing like Hale. Hale did voice two BG characters, I did like though: Dynaheir and Mazzy.
Posted By: OneManArmy Re: Fan club of Minthara - 24/01/21 04:18 PM
Originally Posted by Ayvah
Originally Posted by OneManArmy
There is unverified information that Minthara was voiced by the same actress who voiced the female version of Commander Shepard - Jennifer Hale
https://jenniferhale.com

She also did voice acting for Baldurs Gate back in 1998

I wrote her this question, and I will let you know if she answers and confirms the information. Although the voice is very similar
I don't know what's led to this connection.

I've spent a lot of time listening to Jennifer Hale's acting (I've tended to actively seek out playing as characters she portrays).

I'm not aware of her ever "putting on a voice", but even if I'm listening for that, I can't hear her in Minthara at all. I would be very surprised if she's the actor.


I wrote in Google "Minthara Baldurs Gate voice actor" and Google told me this

[Linked Image from d.radikal.ru]
Posted By: Sozz Re: Fan club of Minthara - 24/01/21 05:56 PM
This is a large part of the reservations I have about whether or not Minthara will be a bigger player in the story, the hoops you have to jump through to even have her be alive at the end of Act 1 are significant.

You have to both choose the path of most resistance in siding with the goblins, you have to not rebuff her advances, then after that you have to succeed one or two persuasion rolls in order for her to not stab you in the back after.
In a list of characters that players a likely to never have more than one dialogue with, expecting Minthara to get a really fleshed out role in the story probably ranks as low as a Kisame Hoshigaki gaiden.
Posted By: OneManArmy Re: Fan club of Minthara - 24/01/21 06:00 PM
Originally Posted by Sozz
This is a large part of the reservations I have about whether or not Minthara will be a bigger player in the story, the hoops you have to jump through to even have her be alive at the end of Act 1 are significant.

You have to both choose the path of most resistance in siding with the goblins, you have to not rebuff her advances, then after that you have to succeed one or two persuasion rolls in order for her to not stab you in the back after.
In a list of characters that players a likely to never have more than one dialogue with, expecting Minthara to get a really fleshed out role in the story probably ranks as low as a Kisame Hoshigaki gaiden.


At least 25% of players, even in a crude, unfinished version, where there is no motivation to take the path of evil, chose this root and slept with Minthara. This amount will be higher in the release. Plus there is an option that she can stay alive and in a good passage, many asked about this.

If it was about 1-5% it would be a different story, but Minthara is quite popular
Posted By: Sozz Re: Fan club of Minthara - 24/01/21 06:03 PM
EA numbers aren't indicative of much, we're supposed to be stress testing everything given us. The real question is how many people did it on their first run, with the understanding that not many people replay games, even RPGs.
Posted By: OneManArmy Re: Fan club of Minthara - 24/01/21 06:10 PM
Originally Posted by Sozz
EA numbers aren't indicative of much, we're supposed to be stress testing everything given us. The real question is how many people did it on their first run, with the understanding that not many people replay games, even RPGs.

Oh, in that case, I'm sure that 80-90% of players will pass the route with Minthara in the first or second or third playthrough, and this will make the game replayable.

Example - Fable - the Lost Chapters
What's the difference who did what in 1 playthrough, absolutely EVERY player played both good and evil
Posted By: Sozz Re: Fan club of Minthara - 24/01/21 06:16 PM
Originally Posted by OneManArmy
Originally Posted by Sozz
EA numbers aren't indicative of much, we're supposed to be stress testing everything given us. The real question is how many people did it on their first run, with the understanding that not many people replay games, even RPGs.

Oh, in that case, I'm sure that 80-90% of players will pass the route with Minthara in the first or second or third playthrough, and this will make the game replayable.

Example - Fable - the Lost Chapters
What's the difference who did what in 1 playthrough, absolutely EVERY player played both good and evil
To be clear the question isn't if there will be something, they've already shown us that there will be, it's how well it will be done and to what extent, considering how few people will ever see it in the end. If 80%-90% of people pass it by in their first, and only 20% of people play the game more than once...you see what I'm getting at.

As it stand, I wouldn't be surprised if Minthara being alive at the end of the grove conflict means little more than having an ally at Moonrise Towers who can easily exit the plot once our quest there is over.
Posted By: TheOnlyRealTav Re: Fan club of Minthara - 24/01/21 06:35 PM
Originally Posted by Sozz
This is a large part of the reservations I have about whether or not Minthara will be a bigger player in the story, the hoops you have to jump through to even have her be alive at the end of Act 1 are significant.

You have to both choose the path of most resistance in siding with the goblins, you have to not rebuff her advances, then after that you have to succeed one or two persuasion rolls in order for her to not stab you in the back after.
In a list of characters that players a likely to never have more than one dialogue with, expecting Minthara to get a really fleshed out role in the story probably ranks as low as a Kisame Hoshigaki gaiden.

The thing is, that the persuasion roll decided to pass the whole sequence with non-lethal result for Minthara is laughably easy (DC of 1 IIRC) if you treat her well. In future, we will have also options to have basically guaranteed wins on DC rolls in dialogues (or less rng/static persuasion etc.), there was article about this on one of gaming news sites. Larian knows that it can randomly lock people out of playthrough option and they will provide an option for those who do not want to reload 20 times to get the desired dialogue line. I can post source here if you are interested.
Also;

In the end of act 1 Narrator says that "you've gained an ally and lover - cultist Minthara".
If you loot Minthara, she loses her equipment and you can see it. That means that she is coded like a companion.
Game files, IIRC reference a drow companion. I can find you the source on steam discussions if you want.

She plays pretty significtant role in the "evil side" already. There is huge possiblity of the whole evil route being altered as Larian has acknowledged that they need rework and more options.

I'm pretty sure that neither her nor Halsin will need to die, even if we choose the opposite sides (knockout comes to the mind, or a surrender cutscene). Reddit was literally full of complaints about this and for a good reason. Those are 2 fan favourites, when it comes to NPCs and "rocks fall, characters die" isn't the best choice. It's here for now, because there wasn't enough of time for Larian to flesh out the whole storyline.

For now, there aren't just enough of opportunities for those characters to stay alive, if we side with their opponents. I do not think that your average non-metagaming and "non-murderhobo" would kill a surrendering character. Harming those who surrender is seen as evil not only in real life but also in games as well.

Some time ago I have made a post about the fact that act 1 indeed needs more interactions and possible routes, including the mentioned surrendering and knockout being properly recognized by the game; it was well recieved and gathered plenty of views. This tells you; that it's not only my point of view.

I wouldn't be suprised, if we could side with Goblins but do not kill the Tieflings. That makes it much more netural; because as we can see the druids besides few of them, aren't exactly the nicest people on planet. This was pretty common complaint on all kinds of Baldurs Gate 3 forums too (steam/this forum/reddit).
Posted By: TheOnlyRealTav Re: Fan club of Minthara - 24/01/21 06:37 PM
Originally Posted by Sozz
Originally Posted by OneManArmy
Originally Posted by Sozz
EA numbers aren't indicative of much, we're supposed to be stress testing everything given us. The real question is how many people did it on their first run, with the understanding that not many people replay games, even RPGs.

Oh, in that case, I'm sure that 80-90% of players will pass the route with Minthara in the first or second or third playthrough, and this will make the game replayable.

Example - Fable - the Lost Chapters
What's the difference who did what in 1 playthrough, absolutely EVERY player played both good and evil
To be clear the question isn't if there will be something, they've already shown us that there will be, it's how well it will be done and to what extent, considering how few people will ever see it in the end. If 80%-90% of people pass it by in their first, and only 20% of people play the game more than once...you see what I'm getting at.

As it stand, I wouldn't be surprised if Minthara being alive at the end of the grove conflict means little more than having an ally at Moonrise Towers who can easily exit the plot once our quest there is over.

Or just become a companion; there is already a plenty of reasoning for this to happen. Even for non-evil playthrough.
Posted By: Kadajko Re: Fan club of Minthara - 24/01/21 06:51 PM
Originally Posted by Sozz
You have to both choose the path of most resistance in siding with the goblins, you have to not rebuff her advances, then after that you have to succeed one or two persuasion rolls in order for her to not stab you in the back after.

How is that a path of most resistence? Persuasion rolls are easy.

Originally Posted by Sozz
To be clear the question isn't if there will be something, they've already shown us that there will be, it's how well it will be done and to what extent, considering how few people will ever see it in the end. If 80%-90% of people pass it by in their first, and only 20% of people play the game more than once...you see what I'm getting at.

As it stand, I wouldn't be surprised if Minthara being alive at the end of the grove conflict means little more than having an ally at Moonrise Towers who can easily exit the plot once our quest there is over.

Remember this?:
''developer Larian lamented the fact the most popular choices in character creation resulted in just about the most generic man you could imagine. Or, as Larian put it: "the default Vault Dweller."

Why have customization options if majority of players play default human? Because the more little choices that only a small % of people will choose the better. This is an RPG every choice you don't make, makes the choice that you do make more meaningful.
Posted By: Sozz Re: Fan club of Minthara - 24/01/21 07:01 PM
I haven't played the 'evil' route in a while and only once at that, but I remember failing that persuasion roll, did they change that in one of the patches? I like to think I treated her well too, though I was roleplaying a lolthsworn.
Originally Posted by TheOnlyRealTav
Or just become a companion; there is already a plenty of reasoning for this to happen. Even for non-evil playthrough.
I'm not sure how non-evil runs don't end up with her and the rest of the goblin leaders being dead? And If you bypass the whole conflict you won't have spoken to her in the first place.
Posted By: Sozz Re: Fan club of Minthara - 24/01/21 07:07 PM
Originally Posted by Kadajko
How is that a path of most resistence? Persuasion rolls are easy.
most resistance because the game gives you a lot of reasons to side with the grove before giving you the option to betray them and side with goblins, the persuasion rolls don't come into play until the questline is finished.

That Vault-Dweller stat sounds misleading, if most people in the EA are going to make more than one character, but most people in general play human-fighter, then statistically humans become more common than the myriad of races that can be chosen as an alt.

And before you ask: Halfling Mage, Elf Priestess, Half-Drow rogue, and Lolth-Sworn ranger.
I haven't played through the EA for a few patches *cough* *cough* Cyberpunk *cough*
Posted By: TheOnlyRealTav Re: Fan club of Minthara - 24/01/21 07:34 PM
Originally Posted by Sozz
I haven't played the 'evil' route in a while and only once at that, but I remember failing that persuasion roll, did they change that in one of the patches? I like to think I treated her well too, though I was roleplaying a lolthsworn.
Originally Posted by TheOnlyRealTav
Or just become a companion; there is already a plenty of reasoning for this to happen. Even for non-evil playthrough.
I'm not sure how non-evil runs don't end up with her and the rest of the goblin leaders being dead? And If you bypass the whole conflict you won't have spoken to her in the first place.

If you check YT the DC is 1. On my gameplay, I had it at both 5 and 1, in different circumstances. The 5 was when I had +4 buff from cleric of Loviathar, so I guess it's bugged. Probably for that particular interactions DC is made higher, not lower, if you have some positive effects.

For now, "good" run is always lethal for Minthara. Even if you knock her out, either game thinks that she is dead or Tieflings finish her off. That's clearly a result of unimplemented options.
I have written in other posts, why there is a good chance for her to appear as a recruitable companion in future; even for PC who isn't exactly roleplaying "evil" side. If you are interested in that being explained once again, no problem.

It's completely against her character to fight until death too. Several times in game we are told how much she values her own life, that she is pretty cowardly and not really an honest believer in the cult of the Absolute. But like I said, it's 110% the result of EA.

Pretty big hint is both the existance of knockout and the fact, that prisoner cage exists in our camp. Potentially holding her as a prisoner and persuading her to join our case seems to be pretty real and logical. She also doesn't happen to know that a tadpole is inside of her head.

I will repeat what I have said before, just as a little clarification.

Originally Posted by TheOnlyRealTav
You remember though, that:
- "I do not intend to lead a suicide charge"
- "Goblins are expendable, I am not"
- She spent her whole life "anticipating knife in the back"
- Via mindreading, we get to know that she is pretty cowardly, we can even call her a coward afterwards.

She clearly values her life to a great degree and isn't the most brave person. Also, if defeaten, but not killed:
- She still needs protection from possible drow assasins, as she is an ex-Lolth believer
- Enemies are everywhere, she has no friends as well
- I do not think that Absolute tolerates failure, returning there isn't an option.

At first, she wouldn't join you out of sympathy, to quote Lae'zel - "Practical choice". That would be the reason. She is said to be very intelligent and her possible knowledge of Absolute could be put to a great use for PC. I'm pretty sure she could realise that.

We get to know too, that she isn't exactly the most honest follower of Absolute, probably she sides with them only for power.

Arguments like "only 20% of players would do this" do not make sense, because BG3 is a Larian game and those are always very well constructed and full of often hidden options. Examples include:
Divinity 2 Original sin: You can defeat Dallis in Act 1; Kniles has special voice line after being teleported into closed cage;
Baldurs Gate 3 - almost every corpse has something to say, if forced to do so via spell.

Take look at this if you wonder, how neutral/good run could still result in Minthara being alive and in possibly good relation with PC.

https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=748888#Post748888

The most important posts are the first one and the 3 rd last one, which is basically a summary of entire long discussion.
Posted By: Sozz Re: Fan club of Minthara - 24/01/21 08:28 PM
What you're describing doesn't sound like very good writing to me, Killing Dallis in Act 1 only reveals that you can't kill Dallis, and you can't kill Dallis because she is important for the plot later on, defeating her is also not necessary for the plot to continue, whereas the plot in BG3 advances with the great expectation that Minthara will be dead at it's end, either by people siding with the grove, or because you've rejected her sexual advances, or because you can't talk your way out of backstabbing her (DC questions aside) If they bring her back from the dead here, it'd be through another loophole deus ex machina that they need in order for a plot important character to be around for some reason, which doesn't seem to be the case nor does it sound like making choices that matter.

I also am seriously skeptical that the knockout functionality will allow for the kind of bifurcation you're hoping for, but as a way of putting a hostile Minthara at Moonrise Towers that you could potentially suborn into your quest, I'm open to, I just don't think that without the "heart to heart" that you have with her during the camp celebration, there is going to be that option.
Posted By: Ayvah Re: Fan club of Minthara - 24/01/21 08:58 PM
Originally Posted by Sozz
I also am seriously skeptical that the knockout functionality will allow for the kind of bifurcation you're hoping for, but as a way of putting a hostile Minthara at Moonrise Towers that you could potentially suborn into your quest, I'm open to, I just don't think that without the "heart to heart" that you have with her during the camp celebration, there is going to be that option.
You should check out a game called Expeditions: Viking

Aside from the fact that it's just a really good game, it also has a knockout mechanic that is pretty meaningful.

There are plenty of situations in that game where you are in combat with a villain and your decision about whether or not kill them has a significant impact on events that follow. (In one instance, the villain escapes and gets in my way again in the future.)

It also has an interesting choices, as you have some wars in which there's no bad guy, just a "less good/more evil" guy, but you're gathering allies so you need to pick a side.

The "evil path" is also legitimised because it's about honouring your fighing culture, wrecking stuff and taking what you need by force.

I generally played EV as a "good Viking", but there were times when I came across a wealthy church, and I was like, "You know what? They're jerks and they don't need so much gold," and (nonlethally) raided the church, taking all their riches. The game didn't have a karma meter, so that didn't make me "evil", but it did mean the church hated me. lol
Posted By: TheOnlyRealTav Re: Fan club of Minthara - 24/01/21 08:58 PM
Originally Posted by Sozz
What you're describing doesn't sound like very good writing to me, Killing Dallis in Act 1 only reveals that you can't kill Dallis, and you can't kill Dallis because she is important for the plot later on, defeating her is also not necessary for the plot to continue, whereas the plot in BG3 advances with the great expectation that Minthara will be dead at it's end, either by people siding with the grove, or because you've rejected her sexual advances, or because you can't talk your way out of backstabbing her (DC questions aside) If they bring her back from the dead here, it'd be through another loophole deus ex machina that they need in order for a plot important character to be around for some reason, which doesn't seem to be the case nor does it sound like making choices that matter.

I also am seriously skeptical that the knockout functionality will allow for the kind of bifurcation you're hoping for, but as a way of putting a hostile Minthara at Moonrise Towers that you could potentially suborn into your quest, I'm open to, I just don't think that without the "heart to heart" that you have with her during the camp celebration, there is going to be that option.

Defeating Dallis in Act 1 is not possible without some big metagaming knowledge that you can only possess by having decent amount of playtime. It's not a spoiler because new players will never succeed at it; even if you manage to do it; we still are given a little hint towards who she really is, not anything that could be said as a huge information or illogical part of the story.

If you have played Witcher 3, Hearts of Stone, there is a good example of a flavor for second playthrough - we aren't told who Gaunter O'diim is until the very end. During the story, we can see him appear as a various characters in the background (soldier/guard etc.) and that is once again something that a new player wouldn't even notice. Because like I said, it's in the background, it's not easily visible and new player could just assume that it's just someone simliar to him. The truth is, that he is almost all-powerful being who basically wants to keep a track on our progress without being spotted by random people (and us).

Where is it expected that Minthara will die in BG3? That she is defeated though, that is indeed what you could expect when siding with Druids. It doesn't indicate her having to die. Wyll and Halsin do tell you that you should probably kill Goblin leaders; but thing is it might happen. Do you remember that Wyll interaction, where he wants to kill the Goblin captain at the Mill and that doesn't have to actually take place.
Her advances at first aren't because of the fact that she genuinely likes you.

The entire story is told as if she was ordered to kill you during the night, when you are the least able to defend yourself. Homever, she cannot bring herself to harm you, if you proceed to treat her well.

Not being able to talk away your way out isn't a problem at this moment and will be non-existant in the future. Unless you mean the bug mentioned above. Or the intimidation check, which isn't so easy, but at same time it's understandable because she feels betrayed; if you succeeds she calms down and talks to you in very polite and caring manner. Like I said, with option for much less random DC, which will be probably favoured by players, this won't be an issue either.

There is very little reason for her to stay at side of the Absolute once she loses that battle and if we are given a possiblity of not killing her. In 99% of cases evil aligned organisations do not tolerate failure in Forgotten Realms and her being there, if she survives and we fight her, but do not kill; is not very logical.

What you forget is that she seems to have a tadpole inside her head, that is very simliar to our own. The reason for her to appear later is as good as for the rest of Origin characters. On top of this she isn't aware of this thing being inside her, so you have a good reason for companion questline simliar to others.

And if really devs expected what you have written to be the case, why would they even bother to add that cutscene in the end of the act where we are told that she is "our lover and ally" ? If she is just going to die in 99,99999999999999999% playthroughs which is not the case, why do all of this (except just for having another choice). We are also promised to meet her once again.
Posted By: TheOnlyRealTav Re: Fan club of Minthara - 24/01/21 09:05 PM
Originally Posted by Ayvah
Originally Posted by Sozz
I also am seriously skeptical that the knockout functionality will allow for the kind of bifurcation you're hoping for, but as a way of putting a hostile Minthara at Moonrise Towers that you could potentially suborn into your quest, I'm open to, I just don't think that without the "heart to heart" that you have with her during the camp celebration, there is going to be that option.
You should check out a game called Expeditions: Viking

Aside from the fact that it's just a really good game, it also has a knockout mechanic that is pretty meaningful.

There are plenty of situations in that game where you are in combat with a villain and your decision about whether or not kill them has a significant impact on events that follow. (In one instance, the villain escapes and gets in my way again in the future.)

It also has an interesting choices, as you have some wars in which there's no bad guy, just a "less good/more evil" guy, but you're gathering allies so you need to pick a side.

The "evil path" is also legitimised because it's about honouring your fighing culture, wrecking stuff and taking what you need by force.

I generally played EV as a "good Viking", but there were times when I came across a wealthy church, and I was like, "You know what? They're jerks and they don't need so much gold," and (nonlethally) raided the church, taking all their riches. The game didn't have a karma meter, so that didn't make me "evil", but it did mean the church hated me. lol

From what you describe it's well done indeed. Even from most of villains, you could expect that if you do show them mercy, they definitely are going to approve this, even if you are on completely opposite sides. Owning your life to someone is probably the biggest debt that one can have. And by approve this, I mean that we might recieve help from them even in the most unexpected moment, for example.

Yes, some of them won't care and will fight/betray you again. But those won't be in majority.

Coming back to BG3 and Minthara, about who is this entire thread; she does seem to have a certain code of honour; even if towards certain people. From interactions that we have seen so far, she isn't one of those, who will be angry just because you do not want to finish them off.
Posted By: OneManArmy Re: Fan club of Minthara - 24/01/21 11:41 PM
Minthara fan art by Victarii from Reddit
[Linked Image from d.radikal.ru]
Posted By: Kadajko Re: Fan club of Minthara - 24/01/21 11:42 PM
up
Posted By: OneManArmy Re: Fan club of Minthara - 25/01/21 12:03 AM
Originally Posted by Kadajko
up
spartan laconism
Posted By: OneManArmy Re: Fan club of Minthara - 25/01/21 12:06 AM
Some new Minthara screen
[Linked Image from 64.media.tumblr.com][Linked Image from 64.media.tumblr.com][Linked Image from 64.media.tumblr.com][Linked Image from cdn.staticneo.com]
Posted By: Soulcatcher30 Re: Fan club of Minthara - 25/01/21 09:09 AM
Nice art and screenshots.
Posted By: Umsche Re: Fan club of Minthara - 25/01/21 11:38 AM
This thread makes me want to kill Mintara on every one of my runs.
Posted By: OneManArmy Re: Fan club of Minthara - 25/01/21 01:16 PM
Originally Posted by Umsche
This thread makes me want to kill Mintara on every one of my runs.

You can just not go to this thread, and he will not bother you
Posted By: spectralhunter Re: Fan club of Minthara - 25/01/21 02:54 PM
Originally Posted by Umsche
This thread makes me want to kill Mintara on every one of my runs.

I do it anyway with or without this thread. smile
Posted By: Soulcatcher30 Re: Fan club of Minthara - 26/01/21 03:19 PM
Let me recruit her so I can dress her up... Skimpy.
Posted By: OneManArmy Re: Fan club of Minthara - 26/01/21 04:08 PM
Originally Posted by Soulcatcher30
Let me recruit her so I can dress her up... Skimpy.

What color of underwear do you think is more suitable for Minthara? It's brown now. Perhaps black or red would be better?
Posted By: Sadurian Re: Fan club of Minthara - 26/01/21 05:37 PM
Alright, the thread is now devolving into the distinctly icky and is becoming less and less about the BG3 game.

I give fair warning that it is teetering on the edge of locking. A reminder that these forums are about Larian's BG3 game. They are not some kind of kink or fetish discussion board.
Posted By: OneManArmy Re: Fan club of Minthara - 26/01/21 05:40 PM
Originally Posted by Sadurian
Alright, the thread is now devolving into the distinctly icky and is becoming less and less about the BG3 game.

I give fair warning that it is teetering on the edge of locking. A reminder that these forums are about Larian's BG3 game. They are not some kind of kink or fetish discussion board.

Ok, we'll do without the ability to change the companions' underwear. Let's refrain from drow fetish and kink in this thread

Let's discuss her personal quests. What should they be?
Posted By: Soulcatcher30 Re: Fan club of Minthara - 27/01/21 07:35 PM
Originally Posted by OneManArmy
Originally Posted by Sadurian
Alright, the thread is now devolving into the distinctly icky and is becoming less and less about the BG3 game.

I give fair warning that it is teetering on the edge of locking. A reminder that these forums are about Larian's BG3 game. They are not some kind of kink or fetish discussion board.

Ok, we'll do without the ability to change the companions' underwear. Let's refrain from drow fetish and kink in this thread

Let's discuss her personal quests. What should they be?

Get her to ditch her god, maybe.
Posted By: OneManArmy Re: Fan club of Minthara - 27/01/21 08:08 PM
Originally Posted by Soulcatcher30
Originally Posted by OneManArmy
Originally Posted by Sadurian
Alright, the thread is now devolving into the distinctly icky and is becoming less and less about the BG3 game.

I give fair warning that it is teetering on the edge of locking. A reminder that these forums are about Larian's BG3 game. They are not some kind of kink or fetish discussion board.

Ok, we'll do without the ability to change the companions' underwear. Let's refrain from drow fetish and kink in this thread

Let's discuss her personal quests. What should they be?

Get her to ditch her god, maybe.


Good option: Eilistraee for the arch of redemption ideal
(I will not post pictures of drow Eilistraee here so that the moderators do not close the topic, but you can use Google)
A way to show the good side of Minthara and a guaranteed happy ending.
I think it would be very nice, Eilistraee is able to protect Minthara and help her be happy better than the Absolute.

Neutral option (can be either evil or good) - our own way. For example, Loviavar or some neutral God. Or she can change class from cleric to warrior. I think the developers will do better than us

Evil option to stay with the Absolute (we don't know what it is). Maybe she's not that bad and might offer us an interesting law-evil walkthrough?

Super evil option - Lolth, who will demand to kill her for betrayal. Or she can demand to kill MC in a terrifyingly dramatic scene where Minthara commits suicide to disobey orders, and not turn into a drider (if MC romance her)
After that, I think many Lolth drow lovers would have understood better the Lolth specificity and made the right conclusions. The best way to show what a monster she is.
Posted By: Ayvah Re: Fan club of Minthara - 27/01/21 08:40 PM
To be clear, I don't think Minthara needs an arc where she changes to "good" or "neutral" using the definitions I provided earlier.

However, I think her evilness (ie selfishness) can be redirected towards good ends and that there could be a place for her in a good party, and perhaps she will even become "good" in the limited sense that she is willing to give up her life for her colleagues. (Layers!)

She could become a better kind of evil. smile

I used the example of Morrigan from Dragon Age earlier, but Morrigan's alignment never really changed. All that happened is that she revealed she's not as malicious as you initially think.
Posted By: OneManArmy Re: Fan club of Minthara - 27/01/21 08:57 PM
Originally Posted by Ayvah
I used the example of Morrigan from Dragon Age earlier, but Morrigan's alignment never really changed. All that happened is that she revealed she's not as malicious as you initially think.

I think you are right, but there are some differences. Morrigan was never a servant of an evil God who dictated his will to her.

Minthara's personality it seems typical of the drow, she is proud, cruel, strives for power, but if you get to know her better, she had no choice, since she grew up in Menzoberranzan and was raised in such a society. And despite this, she really did not like Lolth's excessive cruelty, which goes beyond the usual rational selfish cruelty, in an attempt to get away from which she had the failure to choose the Absolute that makes her do the same. She is not happy with this, it seems as if she has no choice and just trying to have fun, which she does very badly (this is confirmed by some dialogues after trying to kill MC).

Her character will not change too much, but what alternative we can offer her depends on our decisions. It has the potential for various solutions. She can be quite happy with Eilistraee (although she will never be kind and modest, but she can stop receiving evil orders, stop suppressing sentimentality and affection for friends and loved ones), and with Loviavar or other Gods, and without God at all if in the person of the Main Character he gets a strong ally in order to be able to afford it
Posted By: fylimar Re: Fan club of Minthara - 27/01/21 09:44 PM
I hope, you realise that Loviatar is a lawful evil goddess. So that would make Minthara change one evil goddess for another - not much of an redemption arc there.
Posted By: OneManArmy Re: Fan club of Minthara - 28/01/21 12:46 AM
Originally Posted by fylimar
I hope, you realise that Loviatar is a lawful evil goddess. So that would make Minthara change one evil goddess for another - not much of an redemption arc there.

Of course! But if she will be free of the tadpole, she will need a new God as a cleric. Unless the developers decide to change she class after that
Eilistraee was an example of the arc of redemption, Loviavar - if the player is comfortable with the lawful evil playstyle.
I remembered about her because her priest is in the goblin camp, it can be any evil or neutral God
It's hard to say when we don't know the developers' plans
Posted By: fylimar Re: Fan club of Minthara - 28/01/21 09:03 AM
Originally Posted by OneManArmy
Originally Posted by fylimar
I hope, you realise that Loviatar is a lawful evil goddess. So that would make Minthara change one evil goddess for another - not much of an redemption arc there.

Of course! But if she will be free of the tadpole, she will need a new God as a cleric. Unless the developers decide to change she class after that
Eilistraee was an example of the arc of redemption, Loviavar - if the player is comfortable with the lawful evil playstyle.
I remembered about her because her priest is in the goblin camp, it can be any evil or neutral God
It's hard to say when we don't know the developers' plans

It's Loviatar, not Loviatar (now I feel like Hermione - Leviosa)
Posted By: OneManArmy Re: Fan club of Minthara - 28/01/21 02:21 PM
Originally Posted by fylimar
Originally Posted by OneManArmy
Originally Posted by fylimar
I hope, you realise that Loviatar is a lawful evil goddess. So that would make Minthara change one evil goddess for another - not much of an redemption arc there.

Of course! But if she will be free of the tadpole, she will need a new God as a cleric. Unless the developers decide to change she class after that
Eilistraee was an example of the arc of redemption, Loviavar - if the player is comfortable with the lawful evil playstyle.
I remembered about her because her priest is in the goblin camp, it can be any evil or neutral God
It's hard to say when we don't know the developers' plans

It's Loviatar, not Loviatar (now I feel like Hermione - Leviosa)
Oh, I love Harry Potter too
Posted By: fylimar Re: Fan club of Minthara - 28/01/21 02:55 PM
Originally Posted by OneManArmy
Originally Posted by fylimar
Originally Posted by OneManArmy
Originally Posted by fylimar
I hope, you realise that Loviatar is a lawful evil goddess. So that would make Minthara change one evil goddess for another - not much of an redemption arc there.

Of course! But if she will be free of the tadpole, she will need a new God as a cleric. Unless the developers decide to change she class after that
Eilistraee was an example of the arc of redemption, Loviavar - if the player is comfortable with the lawful evil playstyle.
I remembered about her because her priest is in the goblin camp, it can be any evil or neutral God
It's hard to say when we don't know the developers' plans

It's Loviatar, not Loviatar (now I feel like Hermione - Leviosa)
Oh, I love Harry Potter too


Then you know the scene 'It' s Leviooosa, not Leviosaaaa'. Since Loviatar/Loviava sounds similar, I had a bit of a laugh, when I wrote this (was ist seeing that priest saying 'it's Loviatar, not Loviavar).

Sorry for the off topic. Please continue with the topic, I just had a bit of fun.
Posted By: Soulcatcher30 Re: Fan club of Minthara - 29/01/21 08:54 AM
Originally Posted by OneManArmy
Originally Posted by Soulcatcher30
Originally Posted by OneManArmy
Originally Posted by Sadurian
Alright, the thread is now devolving into the distinctly icky and is becoming less and less about the BG3 game.

I give fair warning that it is teetering on the edge of locking. A reminder that these forums are about Larian's BG3 game. They are not some kind of kink or fetish discussion board.

Ok, we'll do without the ability to change the companions' underwear. Let's refrain from drow fetish and kink in this thread

Let's discuss her personal quests. What should they be?

Get her to ditch her god, maybe.


Good option: Eilistraee for the arch of redemption ideal
(I will not post pictures of drow Eilistraee here so that the moderators do not close the topic, but you can use Google)
A way to show the good side of Minthara and a guaranteed happy ending.
I think it would be very nice, Eilistraee is able to protect Minthara and help her be happy better than the Absolute.

Neutral option (can be either evil or good) - our own way. For example, Loviavar or some neutral God. Or she can change class from cleric to warrior. I think the developers will do better than us

Evil option to stay with the Absolute (we don't know what it is). Maybe she's not that bad and might offer us an interesting law-evil walkthrough?

Super evil option - Lolth, who will demand to kill her for betrayal. Or she can demand to kill MC in a terrifyingly dramatic scene where Minthara commits suicide to disobey orders, and not turn into a drider (if MC romance her)
After that, I think many Lolth drow lovers would have understood better the Lolth specificity and made the right conclusions. The best way to show what a monster she is.

Vhaeraun is the drow god I want represented. Let me play drow traitor priestess.

That said, I don't think any of this needs to be tied to a ''redemption'''.
Posted By: Zarna Re: Fan club of Minthara - 29/01/21 10:06 AM
Originally Posted by Soulcatcher30
Vhaeraun is the drow god I want represented. Let me play drow traitor priestess.
This would be awesome. Not sure why they left him out in the first place.
Posted By: OneManArmy Re: Fan club of Minthara - 30/01/21 01:07 AM
Originally Posted by Soulcatcher30
That said, I don't think any of this needs to be tied to a ''redemption'''.

Oh, well, if Minthara became a cleric of Eilistraee, but at the same time remained the same proud b**ch who loves power, just a little softer, not killing innocent (except minions and enemies ) and fought not with druids, but with the cult of Lolth. It would be fun gameplay. I think Eilistraee could help her feel free to her feelings, and find harmony with herself, it would not contradict her personality. Can this be called the arch of redemption in the classical sense? No, but I want
Posted By: Soulcatcher30 Re: Fan club of Minthara - 31/01/21 12:21 PM
Originally Posted by Zarna
Originally Posted by Soulcatcher30
Vhaeraun is the drow god I want represented. Let me play drow traitor priestess.
This would be awesome. Not sure why they left him out in the first place.

I don't know, but drow religions are represented weirdly. Maybe it's something to do with all those retcons that were done to them too, I really don't like what was done to Vhaeraun and Eilistraee in some editions.
Posted By: OneManArmy Re: Fan club of Minthara - 31/01/21 04:05 PM
Originally Posted by Soulcatcher30
Originally Posted by Zarna
Originally Posted by Soulcatcher30
Vhaeraun is the drow god I want represented. Let me play drow traitor priestess.
This would be awesome. Not sure why they left him out in the first place.

I don't know, but drow religions are represented weirdly. Maybe it's something to do with all those retcons that were done to them too, I really don't like what was done to Vhaeraun and Eilistraee in some editions.
Vhaeraun looks like an interesting option too, but all of its clerics are men ...
Posted By: OneManArmy Re: Fan club of Minthara - 31/01/21 11:29 PM
I never got this cast scene even once in two passes, since I killed the Tiffling leader immediately.

And Minthara is very cool as the evil boss lady, so the arc of redemption should only be optional - I like to play as lawful-evil and she is beautiful as a villain.

I just want to complete the game twice for good and for evil, but both times romance Minthara

Posted By: Zarna Re: Fan club of Minthara - 01/02/21 03:54 AM
Originally Posted by Soulcatcher30
I don't know, but drow religions are represented weirdly. Maybe it's something to do with all those retcons that were done to them too, I really don't like what was done to Vhaeraun and Eilistraee in some editions.
I think they added Eilistraee because she is the popular one. They did do a lot of strange stuff with these deities but since they are both alive now I wish to also have Vhaeraun as an option

Originally Posted by OneManArmy
Vhaeraun looks like an interesting option too, but all of its clerics are men ...
You can follow him as something other than a cleric and women also follow him. There may still be masked traitors in 5e, with these you can have your female cleric.
Posted By: Soulcatcher30 Re: Fan club of Minthara - 01/02/21 07:53 AM
Originally Posted by OneManArmy
Originally Posted by Soulcatcher30
Originally Posted by Zarna
Originally Posted by Soulcatcher30
Vhaeraun is the drow god I want represented. Let me play drow traitor priestess.
This would be awesome. Not sure why they left him out in the first place.

I don't know, but drow religions are represented weirdly. Maybe it's something to do with all those retcons that were done to them too, I really don't like what was done to Vhaeraun and Eilistraee in some editions.
Vhaeraun looks like an interesting option too, but all of its clerics are men ...

There are traitor priestesses though. Drow Lolth priestesses that pretend to follow Lolth but in secret follow Vhaeraun. Always wanted a character like that.
Posted By: Zarna Re: Fan club of Minthara - 01/02/21 12:12 PM
Masked traitors is another name for them I think. Currently headcanoning my Lolth Sworn ranger as an agent of Vhaeraun but would definitely play the traitor priestess/masked traitor.
Posted By: OneManArmy Re: Fan club of Minthara - 01/02/21 06:35 PM
Eilistraee/Vhaeraun. So, for a good and evil walkthrough, there are excellent options for a drow cleric who has left Lolth and the Absolute.

Perhaps she will not leave the absolute? We do not know what the Absolute is, it may be possible to play as the cult of the Absolute until the end of the game
Posted By: Leucrotta Re: Fan club of Minthara - 01/02/21 06:55 PM
Vhaeraun could work. IDK about Eilistraee though unless they drastically change the criteria for 'recruiting' Minthara. Evil playthrough is the only way to get her so far and has the PC doing some rather heinous stuff, and of course if the player sides with the Druids and/or refugees, she *dies*

Honestly, if the player sides with the goblins as of right now, they'd first have to find a way to squeeze in a redemption arc for the Player character before Minthara, because preaching to Minthara about Eilistraee would ring mighty hollow when standing over the bodies of the Tieflings you slaughtered for her.
Posted By: OneManArmy Re: Fan club of Minthara - 01/02/21 07:00 PM
Originally Posted by Leucrotta
Vhaeraun could work. IDK about Eilistraee though unless they drastically change the criteria for 'recruiting' Minthara. Evil playthrough is the only way to get her so far and has the PC doing some rather heinous stuff, and of course if the player sides with the Druids and/or refugees, she *dies*

Honestly, if the player sides with the goblins as of right now, they'd first have to find a way to squeeze in a redemption arc for the Player character before Minthara, because preaching to Minthara about Eilistraee would ring mighty hollow when standing over the bodies of the Tieflings you slaughtered for her.


Yes it's true. I see an opportunity to make Minthara a cleric of Eilistraee when we saved her life by killing the goblin leaders and taking her prisoner; after, she will communicate with us, and sooner or later we will decide to free her and give her a second chance, after which the arc of redemption will begin. She will not change too much, but it will be an interesting option to go through a good or netural walkthrough with Minthara, a more difficult way to gain her trust, respect, and possibly love.

Now I don't want to play the path of good at all, because there you need to kill Minthara
Posted By: spectralhunter Re: Fan club of Minthara - 01/02/21 07:03 PM
Originally Posted by OneManArmy
Originally Posted by Leucrotta
Vhaeraun could work. IDK about Eilistraee though unless they drastically change the criteria for 'recruiting' Minthara. Evil playthrough is the only way to get her so far and has the PC doing some rather heinous stuff, and of course if the player sides with the Druids and/or refugees, she *dies*

Honestly, if the player sides with the goblins as of right now, they'd first have to find a way to squeeze in a redemption arc for the Player character before Minthara, because preaching to Minthara about Eilistraee would ring mighty hollow when standing over the bodies of the Tieflings you slaughtered for her.


Yes it's true. I see an opportunity to make Minthara a cleric of Eilistraee when we saved her life by killing the goblin leaders and taking her prisoner; after, she will communicate with us, and sooner or later we will decide to free her and give her a second chance, after which the arc of redemption will begin

I just don’t see a redemption arc after massacring the Druid grove. If there’s a way to avoid it while still being evil, I see a possibility.

Once you wipe out an entire grove of innocent people, you are at the point of no return. At best, her redemption at that point is sacrificing herself to save future lives. There is no happy ending after the massacre.
Posted By: Leucrotta Re: Fan club of Minthara - 01/02/21 07:58 PM
Originally Posted by OneManArmy
[quote=Leucrotta]
Yes it's true. I see an opportunity to make Minthara a cleric of Eilistraee when we saved her life by killing the goblin leaders and taking her prisoner; after, she will communicate with us, and sooner or later we will decide to free her and give her a second chance, after which the arc of redemption will begin. She will not change too much, but it will be an interesting option to go through a good walkthrough with Minthara, a more difficult way to gain her trust, respect, and possibly love.

Now I don't want to play the path of good at all, because there you need to kill Minthara

Originally Posted by spectralhunter
I just don’t see a redemption arc after massacring the Druid grove. If there’s a way to avoid it while still being evil, I see a possibility.

Once you wipe out an entire grove of innocent people, you are at the point of no return. At best, her redemption at that point is sacrificing herself to save future lives. There is no happy ending after the massacre.
It's a bit awkward for both evil and good players as I see it-particularly if they are drow. Playing through and getting to see that stuff from her romance about her trauma over what she did and went through in Menzoberranzean and her yearning for a genuine relationship where she doesn't have to worry about having to murder or be murdered by her partner, you might think she's was custom written as a romance option with Clerics of Eilistraee in mind, but the stuff you have to do to get to that point is pretty much the opposite of what her clergy would preach.

On the other hand, play through as a Cleric of Lolth and/or Lolthsworn Drow, and while the evil stuff you do for that branch might seem par for the course, you find yourself wondering why you are working for someone who's explicitly an apostate. And if you go through to the end, the 'traditional' drow relationship dynamic that Minthara 'flirts' with you with evaporates pretty much instantly.

Despite being the 'drow' romance option, it feels rather awkward to follow it with either 'Seldarine/Eilistraeen' or 'Lolthsworn' at present.
Posted By: TheOnlyRealTav Re: Fan club of Minthara - 01/02/21 08:55 PM
Originally Posted by spectralhunter
Originally Posted by OneManArmy
Originally Posted by Leucrotta
Vhaeraun could work. IDK about Eilistraee though unless they drastically change the criteria for 'recruiting' Minthara. Evil playthrough is the only way to get her so far and has the PC doing some rather heinous stuff, and of course if the player sides with the Druids and/or refugees, she *dies*

Honestly, if the player sides with the goblins as of right now, they'd first have to find a way to squeeze in a redemption arc for the Player character before Minthara, because preaching to Minthara about Eilistraee would ring mighty hollow when standing over the bodies of the Tieflings you slaughtered for her.


Yes it's true. I see an opportunity to make Minthara a cleric of Eilistraee when we saved her life by killing the goblin leaders and taking her prisoner; after, she will communicate with us, and sooner or later we will decide to free her and give her a second chance, after which the arc of redemption will begin

I just don’t see a redemption arc after massacring the Druid grove. If there’s a way to avoid it while still being evil, I see a possibility.

Once you wipe out an entire grove of innocent people, you are at the point of no return. At best, her redemption at that point is sacrificing herself to save future lives. There is no happy ending after the massacre.


Remember though, that both Viconia from BG2 and Nathyrra from Neverwinter, also did really bad things and in the end; Viconia could be still redeemed meanwhile Nathyrra was a good aligned person before the game even started. Aribeth from NWM, who wasn't a drow, but an elf/half-elf, also had a way to redeem herself after the attack on Neverwinter city.

Things work here differently than in real life. Trying to apply our IRL worldview and values there will lead us nowhere, because it's both fantasy world and it's also very heavily based on medieval times.
What Minthara does is no different than what Teutonic Knights were doing IRL for example (attacking pagans), in medieval times such things were seen as normal. Almost every year there was a war and basically until the XX th century armies lived mostly off the land. If all of your food is stolen, survival is not possible. Not to mention how many fights happened when people tried to defend their belongings. It's basicaly copy-pasted here and slightly changed to suit the needs of a fantasy world.

Also until PC approaches Minthara, she is very likely to be stuck in circle of doing evil things, simply because of her past/upbringing/her position. In her current situation, someone from outside has to basically "free her" out of this madness.
Based on her dialogue in the camp, she also doesn't seem like an inherently evil person. Many times through game it's hinted that she does, what she does; because she can't see other way as a realistic choice. That doesn't mean that Minthara did/does those things without feeling bad about it.
An example is given when we mind-read her; she is said to be full of guilt because she had to betray and was betrayed by lovers/family members/friends.

As for Nathyrra, she has for example killed countless innocents according to Neverwinter HOTU plot, yet if she survives the campaign, we're told in the ending that she saved countless lives during the rest of her life. I would say that she did redeem herself. Even just after meeting Seer, she acted really nicely and in a selfless way towards the others, rescuing the drow from the paws of Lolth worshippers.
Posted By: TheOnlyRealTav Re: Fan club of Minthara - 01/02/21 09:04 PM
Originally Posted by OneManArmy
Originally Posted by Leucrotta
Vhaeraun could work. IDK about Eilistraee though unless they drastically change the criteria for 'recruiting' Minthara. Evil playthrough is the only way to get her so far and has the PC doing some rather heinous stuff, and of course if the player sides with the Druids and/or refugees, she *dies*

Honestly, if the player sides with the goblins as of right now, they'd first have to find a way to squeeze in a redemption arc for the Player character before Minthara, because preaching to Minthara about Eilistraee would ring mighty hollow when standing over the bodies of the Tieflings you slaughtered for her.


Yes it's true. I see an opportunity to make Minthara a cleric of Eilistraee when we saved her life by killing the goblin leaders and taking her prisoner; after, she will communicate with us, and sooner or later we will decide to free her and give her a second chance, after which the arc of redemption will begin. She will not change too much, but it will be an interesting option to go through a good walkthrough with Minthara, a more difficult way to gain her trust, respect, and possibly love.

Now I don't want to play the path of good at all, because there you need to kill Minthara

Another possibility of her joining the party of PC for good/neutral aligned players could be just after the siege of the Grove.
Slightly off topic; but also we shouldn't be forced to kill Halsin in evil playthrough either. Both him and Minthara are at this moment the most 2 interesting NPCs, with a great potential for future questline.
I see them both kinda like Iorweth and Roche from the Witcher 2 and it's complete waste to kill such interesting characters so early.

Originally Posted by TheOnlyRealTav
Problem: Outcomes of the battle being different, instead of just killing all the enemies.
a) Minthara is knocked out, battle ends. Zevlor talks to us, what to do with new prisoner.
The options should include:
- Giving her to druids/tieflings
- Finishing her off
- Taking her as a prisoner
b) Minthara is dead, battle is over. Current version of cutscene is started.
c) Minthara is unable to fight, due to being too wounded and exhausted, but still conscious + fight is over. First, we can approach her, to ask a few questions and possibly foreshadow our intentions, then cutscene with Zevlor discussing with us about what to do with drow starts. Or we just finish her off.
d) Attackers flee, the Drow warlord is at full health. Tries to escape, ends up being captured. Altered cutscene with Zevlor plays.
e) The Cleric of Absolute is surrounded by the enemies and the rest of her soldiers flee. She tries to make the last stand. Player should be given the possiblity to persuade her to surrender, promising no harm etc. Otherwise she fights until the moment of not being able to fight anymore (1 hp). PC gets to decide to do with warlord afterwards.

Taken from:
https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=748888&page=2
Posted By: OneManArmy Re: Fan club of Minthara - 01/02/21 09:33 PM
Originally Posted by TheOnlyRealTav
Problem: Outcomes of the battle being different, instead of just killing all the enemies.
a) Minthara is knocked out, battle ends. Zevlor talks to us, what to do with new prisoner.
The options should include:
- Giving her to druids/tieflings
- Finishing her off
- Taking her as a prisoner
b) Minthara is dead, battle is over. Current version of cutscene is started.
c) Minthara is unable to fight, due to being too wounded and exhausted, but still conscious + fight is over. First, we can approach her, to ask a few questions and possibly foreshadow our intentions, then cutscene with Zevlor discussing with us about what to do with drow starts. Or we just finish her off.
d) Attackers flee, the Drow warlord is at full health. Tries to escape, ends up being captured. Altered cutscene with Zevlor plays.
e) The Cleric of Absolute is surrounded by the enemies and the rest of her soldiers flee. She tries to make the last stand. Player should be given the possiblity to persuade her to surrender, promising no harm etc. Otherwise she fights until the moment of not being able to fight anymore (1 hp). PC gets to decide to do with warlord afterwards.

Taken from:
https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=748888&page=2


This looks like a good plan, I really hope that Larian will pay attention and implement it in the game. This is a very important thing.

[Linked Image from pbs.twimg.com]
Posted By: Roethen Re: Fan club of Minthara - 04/02/21 06:24 AM
I'm having a lot of trouble finishing her quest.

I've killed all the druids and tieflings, but Minthara keeps yelling at me to "hunt them down!" What do I do? frown
Posted By: Ænyo Re: Fan club of Minthara - 04/02/21 10:12 AM
Did you kill Tieflings in the Zevlor's cave?
Posted By: Roethen Re: Fan club of Minthara - 05/02/21 04:43 PM
Originally Posted by Ænyo
Did you kill Tieflings in the Zevlor's cave?

Yes. I think it may have been because I recruited Wyll that she was stuck, but when I finally took him and the rest of the tieflings down, Rath and Silver were standing idly in the inner grove and all of my goblin allies were stuck rolling for initiative. It's bugged beyond reason.
Posted By: Terminator2020 Re: Fan club of Minthara - 05/02/21 08:46 PM
I was on the Thiefling side and killed her...

I have nothing against her looks and she looks attractive enough for me to consider sex with her.

In addition I am so pissed of on some women now (I am man) that I feel like to be Evil in real life:


Well I have decided to go to gym tomorrow and train martial arts... I feel like I would like to use VIOLENCE in real life I am so pissed of one woman and no I will not tell what śhe did! Anyway that story would be anyway offtopic so let be.

In the past (it easier to get medals pre 18 age becaus if adults not allowed there are likely not black belts).... I was in Tae Kwon Do tournament with 16 participiants in my weight class as I was 17 years old (adults not allowed) and I got Silver medal!

In the gym sometimes when there is group training Bodycombat (that means you simple kick and hit in the air martial arts moves)...sometimes people have become afraid of my martial arts moves (despite me not hitting them but near them) (but you can also train contact on real boxing bag outside of that Bodycombat group training room.)... Tomorrow I need to get rid of this extra agression in the gym...

Finally on topic If I would have chosen the other side... not the Thieflings side as I did then of course I would like to have sex with Minthara.
Posted By: OneManArmy Re: Fan club of Minthara - 06/02/21 05:11 AM
Originally Posted by Terminator2020
I was on the Thiefling side and killed her...

I have nothing against her looks and she looks attractive enough for me to consider sex with her.

In addition I am so pissed of on some women now (I am man) that I feel like to be Evil in real life:


Well I have decided to go to gym tomorrow and train martial arts... I feel like I would like to use VIOLENCE in real life I am so pissed of one woman and no I will not tell what śhe did! Anyway that story would be anyway offtopic so let be.

In the past (it easier to get medals pre 18 age becaus if adults not allowed there are likely not black belts).... I was in Tae Kwon Do tournament with 16 participiants in my weight class as I was 17 years old (adults not allowed) and I got Silver medal!

In the gym sometimes when there is group training Bodycombat (that means you simple kick and hit in the air martial arts moves)...sometimes people have become afraid of my martial arts moves (despite me not hitting them but near them) (but you can also train contact on real boxing bag outside of that Bodycombat group training room.)... Tomorrow I need to get rid of this extra agression in the gym...

Finally on topic If I would have chosen the other side... not the Thieflings side as I did then of course I would like to have sex with Minthara.

I would ask you to refrain from such conversations in this topic, here we are talking only about Minthara and Baldurs Gate 3.

Real life violence is bad
Posted By: Terminator2020 Re: Fan club of Minthara - 06/02/21 07:12 AM
Originally Posted by OneManArmy
Originally Posted by Terminator2020
I was on the Thiefling side and killed her...

I have nothing against her looks and she looks attractive enough for me to consider sex with her.

In addition I am so pissed of on some women now (I am man) that I feel like to be Evil in real life:


Well I have decided to go to gym tomorrow and train martial arts... I feel like I would like to use VIOLENCE in real life I am so pissed of one woman and no I will not tell what śhe did! Anyway that story would be anyway offtopic so let be.

In the past (it easier to get medals pre 18 age becaus if adults not allowed there are likely not black belts).... I was in Tae Kwon Do tournament with 16 participiants in my weight class as I was 17 years old (adults not allowed) and I got Silver medal!

In the gym sometimes when there is group training Bodycombat (that means you simple kick and hit in the air martial arts moves)...sometimes people have become afraid of my martial arts moves (despite me not hitting them but near them) (but you can also train contact on real boxing bag outside of that Bodycombat group training room.)... Tomorrow I need to get rid of this extra agression in the gym...

Finally on topic If I would have chosen the other side... not the Thieflings side as I did then of course I would like to have sex with Minthara.

I would ask you to refrain from such conversations in this topic, here we are talking only about Minthara and Baldurs Gate 3.

Real life violence is bad
My answer to that in the spoiler offtopic:

A. I do not have a criminal record.
B. Well not bad violence if defending from a bully in my opinion or attacked. In addition sports MMA fighting, martial arts I am for it. Bodycombat in the gym is sports.
C. Defending one self is ok in my book as long as it does not go over the top.
D. Avoiding real fights outside of sports is better then C option of course if you can settle it diplomatically the better.
E. If I go on vacation my plan is not to start a fight even though accidentally a drunk could bump into me. Well then my first reaction is not to start a fight even though it can be annoying.

I know the modern USA culture never fight instead lets sue which I find annoying many times the only ones winning on that if unclear who started it are the lawyerrs that get paid. Yet USA have their lame shit organization ANTIFA that does mayhem every ANTIFA member is a criminal.
F. If 2 people voluntary both fight each other then well...

I am not talking I support bully way oh there is that weak person lets...
Minthara is the ultimate evil basically you choose the Goblin side in BG3.
Posted By: fylimar Re: Fan club of Minthara - 06/02/21 07:58 AM
Terminator: why are you posting your real life stuff in every thread? As was said, this is a thread about a fictional character in a video game, real life problems with women and your criminal record have nothing to do with it.

As for the topic: if they make Minthara an optional companion, I really hope, there will be another way to get her to join the party. Killing the tieflings, including children, is just too evil for me. Plus I 'm not prepared loosing Halsin as councilor and Wyll as a companion, I like them.
Posted By: Roethen Re: Fan club of Minthara - 06/02/21 08:17 AM
Originally Posted by fylimar
Terminator: why are you posting your real life stuff in every thread? As was said, this is a thread about a fictional character in a video game, real life problems with women and your criminal record have nothing to do with it.

As for the topic: if they make Minthara an optional companion, I really hope, there will be another way to get her to join the party. Killing the tieflings, including children, is just too evil for me. Plus I 'm not prepared loosing Halsin as councilor and Wyll as a companion, I like them.
In the original BG games, if you had an evil party member it would decrease your reputation and good party members might end up attacking them (particularly paladins). They would often have quarrels with the group, not unlike those we see between Shadowheart (who wants to be good because she forgot who she is) and Lae'zel (who has been socialized into evil by her culture). It should be the way it is. If you want Minthara, you have to be evil. If you want Wyll and Halsin, you have to be good. You can't have two people whose interests and morals are diametrically opposed in the same party; it just doesn't make sense. Minthara is a cleric of the Absolute, and the majority of the party (except Astarion, but especially Lae'zel) hates the Mindflayers and the zealots they've created.
Posted By: fylimar Re: Fan club of Minthara - 06/02/21 08:50 AM
Originally Posted by Roethen
Originally Posted by fylimar
Terminator: why are you posting your real life stuff in every thread? As was said, this is a thread about a fictional character in a video game, real life problems with women and your criminal record have nothing to do with it.

As for the topic: if they make Minthara an optional companion, I really hope, there will be another way to get her to join the party. Killing the tieflings, including children, is just too evil for me. Plus I 'm not prepared loosing Halsin as councilor and Wyll as a companion, I like them.
In the original BG games, if you had an evil party member it would decrease your reputation and good party members might end up attacking them (particularly paladins). They would often have quarrels with the group, not unlike those we see between Shadowheart (who wants to be good because she forgot who she is) and Lae'zel (who has been socialized into evil by her culture). It should be the way it is. If you want Minthara, you have to be evil. If you want Wyll and Halsin, you have to be good. You can't have two people whose interests and morals are diametrically opposed in the same party; it just doesn't make sense. Minthara is a cleric of the Absolute, and the majority of the party (except Astarion, but especially Lae'zel) hates the Mindflayers and the zealots they've created.

The only evil party member in BG 1 and 2 that decreases reputation, was Viconia, there was no change in reputation if Edwin, Shar-Teel, Eldoth or some of the other evil charcters joined.

I do agree, that Minthara should stay evil. You just don't bounce back from slaughtering a bunch of innocent families easily. I was just wondering, if there could for example be the possibility to take her prisoner in the finished game. Or give the player a better reason to go down the evil road than 'yay, sex with a drow', because right now, the evil road is not very alluring. You loose a decent trader in the grove (better than his goblin counterpart). You become part of a dangerous and frankly quite deranged group and you loose connections to that group too - I never played the evil road, but I watched a let's play and at some point Mintahra told the pc, that they aren't allowed in the goblin camp anymore, because the Absolute want them dead. Soooo - not much to look forward to.
I'm not loosing any sleep, if the evil route is the only way to get Minthara as a companion (if she will become a companion), then I'll just pass. I'm not that invested in that character.
Posted By: Roethen Re: Fan club of Minthara - 06/02/21 09:01 AM
In BG 1 Dorn Il-Khan and Baeloth also decreased reputation score because of their races as half-orc and drow respectively.

I think players could go the Astarion route and embrace the infection. That way they look to Minthara for guidance with the Absolute, particularly if they want to role play a curious neutral evil or spiritually dejected character.

I had the thought of taking her prisoner before too. Her connection to the Absolute is interesting and would be a good source of intel.
Posted By: TheFoxWhisperer Re: Fan club of Minthara - 06/02/21 09:07 AM
In Viconia’s case it was because she is a drow. This adlect features in BG2 too where she is about to get burned at the stake because she is a drow.
Posted By: fylimar Re: Fan club of Minthara - 06/02/21 09:10 AM
Originally Posted by Roethen
In BG 1 Dorn I-Khan and Baeloth also decreased reputation score. I think it has to do with how well-known those characters are in the realm.

I think players could go the Astarion route and embrace the infection. That way they look to Minthara for guidance with the Absolute, particularly if they want to role play a curious neutral evil or spiritually dejected character.

I had the thought of taking her prisoner before too. Her connection to the Absolute is interesting and would be a good source of intel.

I'm not that familiar with the EE companions, apart from the monk, I didn't really use them. But it makes sense, since Baeloth is a drow too and I think Dorn is some kind of anti paladin?

About the Astarion route: I'm all for it. I think, there should be additional dialigue with Gut (since she is the spiritual leader) about it. I could go behind that, good idea.
Taking Minthara prisoner could give you a bit more insight. Maybe she won't become a companion, but an unwilling camp follower that way.
Posted By: OneManArmy Re: Fan club of Minthara - 06/02/21 10:47 AM
I fully support the idea of taking Minthara prisoner on a Good run, but she should be able to get out of the cage and become a companion (optional)
Posted By: Roethen Re: Fan club of Minthara - 06/02/21 11:06 AM
Originally Posted by OneManArmy
I fully support the idea of taking Minthara prisoner on a Good run, but she should be able to get out of the cage and become a companion (optional)
I doubt Minthara would have any interest in joining a group that imprisoned her. She's a Lolth-sworn Drow, and from what we've seen she's an extremely proud personality, and fierce warrior. She would probably rather die in the name of the Absolute like a true zealot than join the campaign at that point.

I will say it might be fun to have her try and persuade us with her illithid power to set her free or join her.
Posted By: TheOnlyRealTav Re: Fan club of Minthara - 07/02/21 02:39 AM
Originally Posted by Roethen
Originally Posted by OneManArmy
I fully support the idea of taking Minthara prisoner on a Good run, but she should be able to get out of the cage and become a companion (optional)
I doubt Minthara would have any interest in joining a group that imprisoned her. She's a Lolth-sworn Drow, and from what we've seen she's an extremely proud personality, and fierce warrior. She would probably rather die in the name of the Absolute like a true zealot than join the campaign at that point.

I will say it might be fun to have her try and persuade us with her illithid power to set her free or join her.

There are several parts in the game that actually tell us quite the opposite of what you have written here.


Originally Posted by TheOnlyRealTav
You remember though, that:
- "I do not intend to lead a suicide charge"
- "Goblins are expendable, I am not"
- She spent her whole life "anticipating knife in the back"
- Via mindreading, we get to know that she is pretty cowardly, we can even call her a coward afterwards.

She clearly values her life to a great degree and isn't the most brave person. Also, if defeaten, but not killed:
- She still needs protection from possible drow assasins, as she is an ex-Lolth believer
- Enemies are everywhere, she has no friends as well
- I do not think that Absolute tolerates failure, returning there isn't an option.

At first, she wouldn't join you out of sympathy, to quote Lae'zel - "Practical choice". That would be the reason. She is said to be very intelligent and her possible knowledge of Absolute could be put to a great use for PC. I'm pretty sure she could realise that.

We get to know too, that she isn't exactly the most honest follower of Absolute, probably she sides with them only for power.

The exact moment, when we learn that she
Isn't the most honest follower of the Absolute is when you talk with her in the camp and select the dialogue option "you can resist the Absolute"
She is also completely unaware of having the tadpole inside her, which could be a beginning for a quest, in which she wants to take revenge on the cult. That alone, making her realise that she has been lied to, could make her actually want to side with PC, even if their views would be different.

Minthara is also coded like a companion at this moment -> when you loot her, all equipment that is taken away, literally diseappears from the model. Also notice, how every companion so far has a tadpole inside them. She could join the PC just to find the cure, if she would actually realise what's inside of her head.
Posted By: OneManArmy Re: Fan club of Minthara - 07/02/21 10:48 AM
Originally Posted by Roethen
Originally Posted by OneManArmy
I fully support the idea of taking Minthara prisoner on a Good run, but she should be able to get out of the cage and become a companion (optional)
I doubt Minthara would have any interest in joining a group that imprisoned her. She's a Lolth-sworn Drow, and from what we've seen she's an extremely proud personality, and fierce warrior. She would probably rather die in the name of the Absolute like a true zealot than join the campaign at that point.

I will say it might be fun to have her try and persuade us with her illithid power to set her free or join her.

She left Lolth for Absolute because she didn't like Lolth's cruelty and betrayal.
Although, the Absolute makes her do the same. If the Absolute is Lolth, who plays with tadpoles, then Minthara does not know anything about it

Minthara definitely doesn't want to die when she is defeated, and she has no choice because the Absolute will punish for failure and Lolth will punish for defection.

We have the evil Gityanki Laezel in a good party, why not add an evil drow?
She is not as evil as she seems at first glance, and is capable of being quite cute under certain circumstances (like Laezel). Craving for domination and power, pride and arrogance - this is not bad if we are on the same team and no one forces her to betray us, she herself will not do it
Posted By: Soulcatcher30 Re: Fan club of Minthara - 09/02/21 04:25 PM
Just let us have her as a companion and romance, Larian.
Posted By: Roethen Re: Fan club of Minthara - 11/02/21 05:49 PM
Originally Posted by OneManArmy
Originally Posted by Roethen
Originally Posted by OneManArmy
I fully support the idea of taking Minthara prisoner on a Good run, but she should be able to get out of the cage and become a companion (optional)
I doubt Minthara would have any interest in joining a group that imprisoned her. She's a Lolth-sworn Drow, and from what we've seen she's an extremely proud personality, and fierce warrior. She would probably rather die in the name of the Absolute like a true zealot than join the campaign at that point.

I will say it might be fun to have her try and persuade us with her illithid power to set her free or join her.

She left Lolth for Absolute because she didn't like Lolth's cruelty and betrayal.
Although, the Absolute makes her do the same. If the Absolute is Lolth, who plays with tadpoles, then Minthara does not know anything about it

Minthara definitely doesn't want to die when she is defeated, and she has no choice because the Absolute will punish for failure and Lolth will punish for defection.

We have the evil Gityanki Laezel in a good party, why not add an evil drow?
She is not as evil as she seems at first glance, and is capable of being quite cute under certain circumstances (like Laezel). Craving for domination and power, pride and arrogance - this is not bad if we are on the same team and no one forces her to betray us, she herself will not do it

This is all true. I didn't realize TheOnlyRealTav's points because I haven't been able to play into Minthara's story without the game completely eating shit, so I know very little about her or her motivations. And indeed, we have an evil vampire and an "evil" cleric of Shar as well, an additional evil companion wouldn't necessarily be inconsistent with Larian's design. I think it's safe to say we can expect to see her as an additional companion. Hopefully Halsin as well.
Posted By: Soulcatcher30 Re: Fan club of Minthara - 13/02/21 09:23 AM
My concern is that they might not make her a companion because I find it easy to just not side with her, games sort of pushes that.
Posted By: Kadajko Re: Fan club of Minthara - 13/02/21 07:25 PM
Originally Posted by Soulcatcher30
My concern is that they might not make her a companion because I find it easy to just not side with her, games sort of pushes that.

Pushes it how?
Posted By: etonbears Re: Fan club of Minthara - 13/02/21 09:01 PM
Originally Posted by Soulcatcher30
My concern is that they might not make her a companion because I find it easy to just not side with her, games sort of pushes that.

Yes, this is true. As most people tend to play "good", Larian have pushed you away from the evil path ( i.e. embracing the tadpole ) at every opportunity, presumably to avoid upsetting players accidentally. This was a little counter-productive when they were asking EA to take/test the "evil" path; it took me 4 plays to successfully be "evil" in this game!
Posted By: AvatarOfSHODAN Re: Fan club of Minthara - 13/02/21 09:08 PM
Originally Posted by etonbears
Originally Posted by Soulcatcher30
My concern is that they might not make her a companion because I find it easy to just not side with her, games sort of pushes that.

Yes, this is true. As most people tend to play "good", Larian have pushed you away from the evil path ( i.e. embracing the tadpole ) at every opportunity, presumably to avoid upsetting players accidentally. This was a little counter-productive when they were asking EA to take/test the "evil" path; it took me 4 plays to successfully be "evil" in this game!

With how glitchy this route is, I think it's less that they are intentionally thematically disuading players - I honestly think it's just unfinished. It makes a lot of sense to go this route after encountering the siblings, Sazza, and realizing you need to get to Moonrise Towers. So I assume they will flesh the route out more.
Posted By: etonbears Re: Fan club of Minthara - 13/02/21 10:03 PM
Originally Posted by AvatarOfSHODAN
Originally Posted by etonbears
Originally Posted by Soulcatcher30
My concern is that they might not make her a companion because I find it easy to just not side with her, games sort of pushes that.

Yes, this is true. As most people tend to play "good", Larian have pushed you away from the evil path ( i.e. embracing the tadpole ) at every opportunity, presumably to avoid upsetting players accidentally. This was a little counter-productive when they were asking EA to take/test the "evil" path; it took me 4 plays to successfully be "evil" in this game!

With how glitchy this route is, I think it's less that they are intentionally thematically disuading players - I honestly think it's just unfinished. It makes a lot of sense to go this route after encountering the siblings, Sazza, and realizing you need to get to Moonrise Towers. So I assume they will flesh the route out more.

That's true, the potential complexity of all possible choices/paths in the game means that it often feels glitchy. The further you go from a linear story, the more dificult it is to build the sort of deterministic state model that sensible conversations/choices rely on.

But ignoring which encounters/paths you actually choose, the game, as it currently plays, actively discourages you from using the tadpole through the camp dreams/cutscenes. That's OK, as most people wil want to play the "good" path; just makes it less obvious how to be "evil" to help the EA process.
Posted By: Pandemonica Re: Fan club of Minthara - 17/02/21 09:29 PM
Got to say, that saucy hook up scene definately made it worth it to go evil, though I did feel bad about wiping out the tieflings. I can't believe you guys were brave enough to put a scene like that in the game, bravo Larian. I really hope I can make her a companion in the main game. I have to say, considering the one scene at the end, I am more and more convinced that the Absolute is going to be Shar.
Posted By: DuskHorseman Re: Fan club of Minthara - 17/02/21 10:02 PM
There's an entire thread of Minthara fans, and it's one of the largest on the website. Don't worry, friend, you are in no way alone.
Posted By: Boblawblah Re: Fan club of Minthara - 17/02/21 10:45 PM
there's a couple

https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=697736#Post697736
Posted By: Tuco Re: Fan club of Minthara - 17/02/21 10:48 PM
Jesus Christ, fuck Minthara and that other creepy priest.
Posted By: DuskHorseman Re: Fan club of Minthara - 17/02/21 10:56 PM
Originally Posted by Tuco
Jesus Christ, fuck Minthara and that other creepy priest.
Think that's the point, friend.
Posted By: Tuco Re: Fan club of Minthara - 17/02/21 10:58 PM
Originally Posted by DuskHorseman
Think that's the point, friend.
Yeah, I assume so.
I just wish people would try to do it on their shitty fanfiction blog rather than here.
Posted By: VonFoxFire Re: Fan club of Minthara - 17/02/21 10:59 PM
The whole Drow matriarchy mentality can be annoying to deal with but she's the best option of the female options in my opinion. I find the other two options insufferably annoying to deal with.
Posted By: Etruscan Re: Fan club of Minthara - 17/02/21 11:08 PM
Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by DuskHorseman
Think that's the point, friend.
Yeah, I assume so.
I just wish people would try to do it on their shitty fanfiction blog rather than here.

This made me laugh out loud, thank you.
Posted By: RedPandaLuver Re: Fan club of Minthara - 18/02/21 01:27 AM
I love Minthara too! I think it is in large part due to her fantastic voice acting! I was repeating the "oh dear, Sazza" line in my head for days after hearing it! I also just loved her conversation with the Goblin Warboss, the "I'll take something precious from you every hour that passes" also the way it describes a "cold hand caressing your thoughts" c'mon. They were trying to get people to love her, and it worked!
Posted By: OneManArmy Re: Fan club of Minthara - 18/02/21 07:14 AM
UPDATE
https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=756756
Posted By: Ayvah Re: Fan club of Minthara - 18/02/21 07:43 AM
Originally Posted by etonbears
But ignoring which encounters/paths you actually choose, the game, as it currently plays, actively discourages you from using the tadpole through the camp dreams/cutscenes. That's OK, as most people wil want to play the "good" path; just makes it less obvious how to be "evil" to help the EA process.
I don't think using the tadpole should be presented as evil. Maybe eventually the tadpole takes control and makes you evil, but even if that's the case, the path getting there should be a little more ambiguous. Especially because an evil character would be even more likely to be against the idea of being consumed and transformed into a mind-flayer as this would not be of any personal benefit. Meanwhile, a good character might justify personally sacrificing themselves in order to achieve a noble goal. I think the tadpole offers interesting choices in balancing the personal cost of allowing the tadpole to grow in strength vs the benefits of the power it provides.

Evil choices should be about personal gain at others' expense. For example, helping Minthara and the goblins slaughter the druids because the goblins seem to be better equipped to help cure you of the tadpole.

I also think it'd be interesting to have ethical backfire. For example:

Good version: you find an innocent person accused of murder, but you're forced to lie to protect them and the lie has unexpected negative consequences you have to deal with and you're eventually forced into a decision to confess that you've lied (condemning the innocent to the death penalty or something) or commit further crimes (perhaps even murder) to continue covering it up.

Evil version: you ally yourself with an evil character (eg the goblins?) for personal gain, but it turns out that you're just a patsy and you get robbed (involuntary charity lol). Maybe you try to ally yourself with Minthara as an evil decision but it turns out Minthara can't trust you because you're just too evil for her (she's not a fan of being backstabbed). Or something else goes wrong for you and you get caught and punished somehow.

The harder you try to commit to a particular alignment, the harder the game should challenge and punish you for it. wink
Posted By: Etruscan Re: Fan club of Minthara - 18/02/21 08:49 AM
Originally Posted by RedPandaLuver
I love Minthara too! I think it is in large part due to her fantastic voice acting! I was repeating the "oh dear, Sazza" line in my head for days after hearing it! I also just loved her conversation with the Goblin Warboss, the "I'll take something precious from you every hour that passes" also the way it describes a "cold hand caressing your thoughts" c'mon. They were trying to get people to love her, and it worked!

Didn’t work on me but then again I never had a thing for psychotic murderous women.
Posted By: fylimar Re: Fan club of Minthara - 18/02/21 09:20 AM
I don't really care about that character. There are a lot of npcs, I like to see more of, but not Minthara. She is too evil and unbalanced for my taste.
Posted By: Necrosian Re: Fan club of Minthara - 19/02/21 03:30 PM
I for one like the crazies !
Posted By: OneManArmy Re: Fan club of Minthara - 20/02/21 01:35 AM
Originally Posted by Necrosian
I for one like the crazies !
Astarion and Minthara have a strong fan base, while Laezel, Gale and even Shadow Heart don't have that close - although they are more popular in terms of player selection.
I think the only reason Minthara doesn't have that much fan art is because she's not a companion at the moment. This thread will have more 100 pages after the full game is released
Posted By: Pandemonica Re: Fan club of Minthara - 20/02/21 04:48 AM
Originally Posted by fylimar
I don't really care about that character. There are a lot of npcs, I like to see more of, but not Minthara. She is too evil and unbalanced for my taste.

Actually, if you go by D&D lore, for a woman Drow she is about as balanced as they come.
Posted By: Pandemonica Re: Fan club of Minthara - 20/02/21 04:52 AM
Originally Posted by etonbears
Originally Posted by Soulcatcher30
My concern is that they might not make her a companion because I find it easy to just not side with her, games sort of pushes that.

Yes, this is true. As most people tend to play "good", Larian have pushed you away from the evil path ( i.e. embracing the tadpole ) at every opportunity, presumably to avoid upsetting players accidentally. This was a little counter-productive when they were asking EA to take/test the "evil" path; it took me 4 plays to successfully be "evil" in this game!

Yes but are you sure it is the evil path to not use the tadpole? Some of the narrations really leave that up in there air. Like the narration about you body wants her gone, maybe that is the tadpole that is making you feel that because it fears her/him? When you take things like these dreams, and the use of your psionic abilities as a given, to NOT use them because you THINK it is the evil path, leaves you wide open for a twist. The truth is, we do not know if it is strictly the tadpole in your head trying to corrupt you. It has been stated that they tadpole was not the ordinary tadpole, so the truth is, we have no idea what it's agenda truly is.

Also, there is ALOT of people that like to play Renegade, and sometimes it offers the best story. If you are limiting yourself to just good characters you are cheating yourself.
Posted By: LordGiggles Re: Fan club of Minthara - 20/02/21 07:33 AM
Originally Posted by Pandemonica
Originally Posted by fylimar
I don't really care about that character. There are a lot of npcs, I like to see more of, but not Minthara. She is too evil and unbalanced for my taste.

Actually, if you go by D&D lore, for a woman Drow she is about as balanced as they come.
Nah there's been good aligned drow for ages now. Not all of them are lolth aligned psychos. You can even play them in bg3, there's unique dialogue as a result of it.
Posted By: fylimar Re: Fan club of Minthara - 20/02/21 11:38 AM
Originally Posted by LordGiggles
Originally Posted by Pandemonica
Originally Posted by fylimar
I don't really care about that character. There are a lot of npcs, I like to see more of, but not Minthara. She is too evil and unbalanced for my taste.

Actually, if you go by D&D lore, for a woman Drow she is about as balanced as they come.
Nah there's been good aligned drow for ages now. Not all of them are lolth aligned psychos. You can even play them in bg3, there's unique dialogue as a result of it.

I agree, not every drow is a Lolth psychopath.

My comment was in another thread, where the thread opener asked, if we would like Minthara as a companion. I would never say anything negative about a character in a fan thread, so soryy, that this is in here now, the threads must have been merged.
Posted By: OneManArmy Re: Fan club of Minthara - 21/02/21 12:10 PM
Originally Posted by RedPandaLuver
I love Minthara too! I think it is in large part due to her fantastic voice acting! I was repeating the "oh dear, Sazza" line in my head for days after hearing it! I also just loved her conversation with the Goblin Warboss, the "I'll take something precious from you every hour that passes" also the way it describes a "cold hand caressing your thoughts" c'mon. They were trying to get people to love her, and it worked!

Yes, her cruelty has its own charm and sexuality. The voice acting is great, but some don't like it
Posted By: Innateagle Re: Fan club of Minthara - 27/02/21 01:28 AM
Any of you tried to betray her at the grove and then knock her out? I doubt it'd do anything, but it'd be a cool little detail, the possibility of taking her prisoner for information.
Posted By: Pandemonica Re: Fan club of Minthara - 27/02/21 01:36 AM
Originally Posted by Innateagle
Any of you tried to betray her at the grove and then knock her out? I doubt it'd do anything, but it'd be a cool little detail, the possibility of taking her prisoner for information.

Yeah I am sure if we took her prisoner, it would be for "information". It is a cool idea though, imagine the chaos she could cause in camp turning us against each other, or trying to trick us in bed to where we have to win like a 18 in a roll to not be assassinated.
Posted By: Innateagle Re: Fan club of Minthara - 27/02/21 09:57 AM
Originally Posted by Pandemonica
Originally Posted by Innateagle
Any of you tried to betray her at the grove and then knock her out? I doubt it'd do anything, but it'd be a cool little detail, the possibility of taking her prisoner for information.

Yeah I am sure if we took her prisoner, it would be for "information". It is a cool idea though, imagine the chaos she could cause in camp turning us against each other, or trying to trick us in bed to where we have to win like a 18 in a roll to not be assassinated.

My dude is lawful evil, and torture is honest work. It's the fan club of Minthara so i wanted to be polite about it :p.
Posted By: Soulcatcher30 Re: Fan club of Minthara - 27/02/21 12:24 PM
Hopefully we might learn something new soon on this matter.
Posted By: TheOnlyRealTav Re: Fan club of Minthara - 03/03/21 07:22 AM
Originally Posted by Roethen
Originally Posted by OneManArmy
Originally Posted by Roethen
Originally Posted by OneManArmy
I fully support the idea of taking Minthara prisoner on a Good run, but she should be able to get out of the cage and become a companion (optional)
I doubt Minthara would have any interest in joining a group that imprisoned her. She's a Lolth-sworn Drow, and from what we've seen she's an extremely proud personality, and fierce warrior. She would probably rather die in the name of the Absolute like a true zealot than join the campaign at that point.

I will say it might be fun to have her try and persuade us with her illithid power to set her free or join her.

She left Lolth for Absolute because she didn't like Lolth's cruelty and betrayal.
Although, the Absolute makes her do the same. If the Absolute is Lolth, who plays with tadpoles, then Minthara does not know anything about it

Minthara definitely doesn't want to die when she is defeated, and she has no choice because the Absolute will punish for failure and Lolth will punish for defection.

We have the evil Gityanki Laezel in a good party, why not add an evil drow?
She is not as evil as she seems at first glance, and is capable of being quite cute under certain circumstances (like Laezel). Craving for domination and power, pride and arrogance - this is not bad if we are on the same team and no one forces her to betray us, she herself will not do it

This is all true. I didn't realize TheOnlyRealTav's points because I haven't been able to play into Minthara's story without the game completely eating shit, so I know very little about her or her motivations. And indeed, we have an evil vampire and an "evil" cleric of Shar as well, an additional evil companion wouldn't necessarily be inconsistent with Larian's design. I think it's safe to say we can expect to see her as an additional companion. Hopefully Halsin as well.
Hah no worries man, if you have any questions I can even write the exact lines that happen to be spoken in the game and even tell you when they are said. Yes, Halsin being a companion would be an awesome thing. Basically Act 1 that we currently have, seems to center around those 2 characters - Halsin and Minthara.
That is why I think that we should be given a choice to actually spare them and possibly let them join us; even with persuasion required/some time etc. It obviously won't be an easy thing.
Posted By: Soulcatcher30 Re: Fan club of Minthara - 07/03/21 01:19 PM
No leaks?
Posted By: TheOnlyRealTav Re: Fan club of Minthara - 08/03/21 09:53 AM
Originally Posted by Soulcatcher30
No leaks?
I think that more information will come, when an "Evil Route" will get it's promised update. That is going to happen some time later in EA.
For now nothing interesting sadly.
Posted By: Vortex138 Re: Fan club of Minthara - 08/03/21 09:12 PM
Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by DuskHorseman
Think that's the point, friend.
Yeah, I assume so.
I just wish people would try to do it on their shitty fanfiction blog rather than here.


Agreed. I understand some ppl like her (I find her voice extremely irritating). I've read enough about drow society to know, that if you are male, you don't want to go there... EVER... Again, though, this is getting beyond the realm of liking her character and becoming an obsession for some.
Posted By: Soulcatcher30 Re: Fan club of Minthara - 18/03/21 05:25 PM
Not getting her or a some other drow companion in general would be a shame.
Posted By: OneManArmy Re: Fan club of Minthara - 29/03/21 07:49 AM
Originally Posted by Soulcatcher30
Not getting her or a some other drow companion in general would be a shame.
Everybody loves the drow. We need more charismatic and sexual drow
Posted By: Soulcatcher30 Re: Fan club of Minthara - 11/04/21 02:09 PM
Originally Posted by OneManArmy
Originally Posted by Soulcatcher30
Not getting her or a some other drow companion in general would be a shame.
Everybody loves the drow. We need more charismatic and sexual drow
Not losing hope that we get them.
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