I noticed that Shove is set as a bonus action rather than an action. This pretty much removes half the reason to take Shield Master as a feat. In the same vain I notice that Shield bash has been removed from the Shield Master feat. Seems odd given you have the mechanic already in place, As far as game play with Shove thus far, it seems a bit OP as a bonus action. I am pushing people off cliffs and buildings with abandon, with all players. In a lot of situations its my default bonus action over others especially if I marry it with those things that grant saving throw bonuses.
Why not push Shove to an action per the rules, grant it as a bonus action for those that have the Shield Master feat? It grants more utility to Shield Master, makes it less inviting to other character classes that would normally be less inclined to use up their action for the Shove feature and thus balance is achieved.
Ok, I'm gonna need your help with explaining what Shield Master has to do with Shove? Here's the text for Shield Master:
With the Shield Master feat, players will gain a +2 bonus to Dexterity saving throws if they are wielding a shield. If a player has to make a Dexterity saving throw, they can use a reaction to shield themselves. If the save is successful, they will take no damage.
It's just a +2 bonus to Dex saving throws while you have a shield equipped. What does that have to do with Shove?
Kleptom is referring to the Shield Master feat in the 5e players handbook. Most feats in 5e have multiple different perks, and shield master actually has three. The shield master feat in BG3 implements only one of these (the +2 to dex saving throws portion).
There are two other abilities with the shield master feat in players handbook. One allows you to use your reaction to take NO damage if you make a dexterity save, rather than half damage, and the other allows you to use your bonus action to shove. Neither of these is implemented in BG3 at the moment, but they are part of the feat in 5e.
Kleptom is referring to the Shield Master feat in the 5e players handbook. Most feats in 5e have multiple different perks, and shield master actually has three. The shield master feat in BG3 implements only one of these (the +2 to dex saving throws portion).
There are two other abilities with the shield master feat in players handbook. One allows you to use your reaction to take NO damage if you make a dexterity save, rather than half damage, and the other allows you to use your bonus action to shove. Neither of these is implemented in BG3 at the moment, but they are part of the feat in 5e.
Read what I posted again as I think you missed something: With the Shield Master feat, players will gain a +2 bonus to Dexterity saving throws if they are wielding a shield. If a player has to make a Dexterity saving throw, they can use a reaction to shield themselves. If the save is successful, they will take no damage.
The part I highlighted is pretty clearly the first ability you say isn't there. Now whether it is working or not, I can't speak for that as I have not taken the feat yet. It is there however.
Now, regarding the shove aspect, I read up on it in the SRD I see the issue now. OP is saying shove should only be a bonus action when used as part of this feat. Currently it is a bonus action for everyone when it should be an action for those without the feat. Can't say I disagree with OP on that. I'd bug report this OP so you can be sure it gets seen. I wouldn't rely on someone that matters seeing it on the forum.
Shove is the most op ability in the game currently.
I disagree.
Back on topic: If the action economy of shoving remains as it is, Shield Master really needs an additional feature to make it worth taking. Maybe an improved shove that knocks prone regardless of height? Another boon to defence? Captain America throw?
Personally, I took the 5e version on my Paladin and the feat felt lacking. It didn't help complete the "guardian" vision I was going for. I wouldn't mind if Larian took a few liberties with it to really make it shine.
I´m ok with it, but I think they should come with something new as a substitution if they take a feature from a class or feat.
Maybe it´s an upopular opinion, but I prefer that they allow all characters to have a bonus disengage, hide and shove and let larian come with something new for lvl 2 rogues and shield masters that improves or adds a new feature so they could be distinct while letting all players enjoy the shove, disengage and hide as a bonus.
@Osprey39. Sorry I could have worded that better. Some times I forget people aren't in my head. I just received the game and am playing through it where do I go to do bug reports? I really would like to get this before the game design God's.
@Osprey39. Sorry I could have worded that better. Some times I forget people aren't in my head. I just received the game and am playing through it where do I go to do bug reports? I really would like to get this before the game design God's.
I've heard of some people emailing them but I don't know the email address for that. Maybe someone will chime in with it. Here are the places listed in the FAQ though:
I wouldn't bother with Steam forums personally, they are a cesspool. Of the other choices, I say the feedback/gameplay problems forum here or Discord are probably your best bets.
I have few very concise opinions about the "shove" option:
- it should be an action, especially if its stays as suspiciously reliable as it is now. - to "compensate" it should do more damage than it does from certain heights. - it should look a bit less cartoony and ridiculous. When I push someone from a cliff I expect to see the poor bastard fall down almost entirely in a vertical trajectory, not in an ample, pronounced parabolic arc. - The animation should suggest the sense of "heavy body falling to the ground with a bit more... gravitas (how's that for a double entendre, uh?), not look like a sketch of Wil E. Coyote floating mid air.
Shove is really fun as it is. Literally every single person I've watched play BG3 on Twitch or YouTube (and it's been a lot) has been utterly delighted by Shove as it is. Even if it unbalances things (literally, am I right?) some, it's so entertaining I don't think they should change it.
Well. As it stands, you play low level only, so you don't get many attacks. It's nice to have something other to do than roll one die and skip turn. I admit, I'm having lots of fun with it.
But... It *is* far too powerful with the verticality of the environment. It *really* ought to be an action, instead of a bonus action. That, and the distance you push someone should be based off of your STR; currently Gale pushes just as far as Laezel does.
The game currently is heavily in favor of two-handed weapons because of it; why attack with the off-hand, if you can push something to death instead? Why go sword-and-board if the one thing that made it awesome is now for everyone?
I just think enemies need to be Shoving us just as much, that would make the combat even more tactical as we'd have to really consider whether or not we were in a vulnerable position to be Shoved.
Also, RE: Shield Master, they should just give advantage to Shoves if you have the feat and a shield.
I must be a DND 5e Rules purest, I think the way they have 5e set is based on Game balance that's been tested in actual game play, Granted that's pen and paper and an argument could be had to the actual translation to a computer game but I will freely admit I am biased on this post as I have some of my favorite characters I would love to build in Baldurs Gate.
FYI I pushed the Spider Queen off a web last night with my Warlock. My statement still stands, its over powered and Baldurs 3 game balance and character fine tuning will benefit from following the rule set long term on this one. Change it now before you start introducing the Paladin class. You can thank me later.
I just think enemies need to be Shoving us just as much, that would make the combat even more tactical as we'd have to really consider whether or not we were in a vulnerable position to be Shoved.
Also, RE: Shield Master, they should just give advantage to Shoves if you have the feat and a shield.
I was mighty surprised when one of the Zhentarim pushed Wyll(?) into the dark abyss. Sure doesn't happen enough :P
As for topic. Sounds like a nice way to go about a shove rebalancing.
That, and the distance you push someone should be based off of your STR; currently Gale pushes just as far as Laezel does.
What? Not in my experience he doesn't. Most of the time when I shove someone with my casters, it just knocks them prone until the end of the round. Not to mention, the to hit chance is impacted by your STR bonus so your chance of even being successful with Gale is much lower. I just loaded up a save and checked that. 40% hit chance with Gale, 70% with Lae'zel.
I think it is absolutely fine as it allows more ways to approach combat and gives high strength characters something to excel at. We are in The first part act 1 of a three act game....the creatures and encounters will get more difficult. Sneaking behind someone to shove them off a cliff will only be possible with high stealth skill which usually only high dex characters will have, and most high dex characters won’t have high strength, so it will still be a gamble.
You are complaining about the easiest beginner area of an extremely complicated and long game where even 95% doesn’t mean it’s guaranteed on normal difficulty. How many times has Gale shoved a a Minotaur off a ledge? Or a Githyanki? I’ve only had minimal success with Lazeal versus level 4 and 5 mobs. The creatures don’t stay prone so there’s no hit bonuses, it’s literally only useful at elevation. If they fluffed monsters stats and gave them all super high constitution and strength so they couldn’t be pushed, the fights would be less interesting, offer less variety, and turn off a lot of people who use the skill a few times only to realize it’s useless.
The spiders you find 30 minutes into the game can be solo’d and are not meant to be difficult...they are to teach you to use destructible terrain to your advantage (spiderwebs), remind you to spread out and not stay bunched because of aoe attacks(the poison), and that you can make fights easier by steathing and scoping things out (killing the eggs before she can hatch them) It is a perfect beginners introduction to more complicated and useful playstyles.
Or you can shove them off the ledge over and over, which isn’t the point, but if you find that easier and more fun than we shouldn’t take that away
That, and the distance you push someone should be based off of your STR; currently Gale pushes just as far as Laezel does.
What? Not in my experience he doesn't. Most of the time when I shove someone with my casters, it just knocks them prone until the end of the round. Not to mention, the to hit chance is impacted by your STR bonus so your chance of even being successful with Gale is much lower. I just loaded up a save and checked that. 40% hit chance with Gale, 70% with Lae'zel.
It sounds like your casters are shoving enemies into obstacles. I haven't seen any difference except for the STR increasing success chance. If you can't see a shove arc you will just push enemies to the ground and they will immediatly raise to their feet again.
Originally Posted by macadami
I think it is absolutely fine as it allows more ways to approach combat and gives high strength characters something to excel at. We are in The first part act 1 of a three act game....the creatures and encounters will get more difficult. Sneaking behind someone to shove them off a cliff will only be possible with high stealth skill which usually only high dex characters will have, and most high dex characters won’t have high strength, so it will still be a gamble.
If you're outside the enemies' field of view you can easily stealth with any character currently. Even without stealth you get a rather high success chance on all characters in my experience. Since it's a free action there is no downside unless you want to use a consumable as well.
I ran my last game with the od that removes extra surface damage and small things such as that makes sucha huge difference in how you approach the game and how you think about it tactically. Right now, abusing ledges for a combined fall damage + height advantage is ridiculous in my opinion.
I just think enemies need to be Shoving us just as much, that would make the combat even more tactical as we'd have to really consider whether or not we were in a vulnerable position to be Shoved.
Also, RE: Shield Master, they should just give advantage to Shoves if you have the feat and a shield.
In the game of Solasta, currently in EA too, the IA uses shove and sleep against you on a regular basis.
In the latest patch they took away the "shove" action for the enemies because they found out too many players are dying in Caer Lem, a very vertically build dungeon. They think to allow that in the highest difficult options.
"If you take the Attack action on your turn, you can use a bonus action to try to shove a creature within 5 feet of you with your shield." I have been wanting a "shield bash" ability ever since I started playing. This however is not it unfortunately. What I have to ask though is what is the differance between this "ability" and the general shove ability? To me it just sounds like you're "using your shield" instead of your hands??? If that's the case it seems just pointless to me. I'm guessing that I am missunderstanding things here though and would like someone to please clarify what I'm not understanding.
I still eagerly await a "shield bash" ability/feat. I'm not really sure why but I've always liked the idea of smacking you upside your head, or just in your body in general, with my shield. Basically like a 2nd attack but with a shield as the weapon. I know everyone has seen this happen in movies so you have got to know what I'm talking about. Lol.
A shove to prone, even if it was restricted to the Shield Master feat would be great. As modders could use the animations and what not to give us a rules as written shove to port into the game. Though, I admit, I'd prefer the animation for it be a bit more grounded than the flying shield bash shown in the accompanying video. Just a personal preference, mind you.
"If you take the Attack action on your turn, you can use a bonus action to try to shove a creature within 5 feet of you with your shield." I have been wanting a "shield bash" ability ever since I started playing. This however is not it unfortunately. What I have to ask though is what is the differance between this "ability" and the general shove ability? To me it just sounds like you're "using your shield" instead of your hands??? If that's the case it seems just pointless to me. I'm guessing that I am missunderstanding things here though and would like someone to please clarify what I'm not understanding.
I still eagerly await a "shield bash" ability/feat. I'm not really sure why but I've always liked the idea of smacking you upside your head, or just in your body in general, with my shield. Basically like a 2nd attack but with a shield as the weapon. I know everyone has seen this happen in movies so you have got to know what I'm talking about. Lol.
It is my free interpretatio of a "shield bash" because it is the closest to the 5E ruling I know. A real offensive shild bash skill is of course always better to have.
But mainly this is about the shove mechanic in general which is Larian homebrew and not 5E compliant. Larians BA shove mechanic devalues the Shield Master feat besides some other mechanics...
Originally Posted by Ignatius
A shove to prone, even if it was restricted to the Shield Master feat would be great. As modders could use the animations and what not to give us a rules as written shove to port into the game. Though, I admit, I'd prefer the animation for it be a bit more grounded than the flying shield bash shown in the accompanying video. Just a personal preference, mind you.
Don't take this video example for 100%. I didn't find a better melee combat example then and I haven't found one now, but the original skill in the game shown is actually melee. The dude just show some kind of game mechanic exploit for a range attack version of that skill for the PVP.
But mainly this is about the shove mechanic in general which is Larian homebrew and not 5E compliant. Larians BA shove mechanic devalues the Shield Master feat besides some other mechanics...
Great another non5edition ruling. I love when companies "follow the rules" of the game.Lol
Shield Master would be a really cool feat if it would exclusively give you that BA Shove. Flavorful and useful.
Larian should also pay close attention to "5 feet". Not 20ft. or 50ft., 5.
I honestly can't believe Shove is still a BA and the distances are what they are. It's objectively terrible. I guess they prefer the slapstick and memes over credible tactical combat.
Shield Master would be a really cool feat if it would exclusively give you that BA Shove. Flavorful and useful.
Larian should also pay close attention to "5 feet". Not 20ft. or 50ft., 5.
I honestly can't believe Shove is still a BA and the distances are what they are. It's objectively terrible. I guess they prefer the slapstick and memes over credible tactical combat.
Right. I believe https://baldursgate3.wiki.fextralife.com/Arrow+of+Roaring+Thunder has that 5ft. knockback range and is also available to all classes with an appropriate ranged weapon, so there is absolutely no need for an universal BA Shove skill and certainly not with more than 5ft. as you say.
Be careful Larian. D&D games like this one and DDO, the playerbase wants you to understand that this is a game that you BUILD AROUND AN ALREADY ESTABLISHED SET OF RULES. Any deviation will have to be slight enough that you can at least close your eyes and imagine what they can do on the tabletop.
Of course some rules must change in the conversion into a video game... or sometimes must even be excluded, but if you are going to DO IT BY NAME, do it with respect to the rule. Its got to feel right. If its a total exaggeration, its not going to go well.
I noticed that Shove is set as a bonus action rather than an action. This pretty much removes half the reason to take Shield Master as a feat. In the same vain I notice that Shield bash has been removed from the Shield Master feat. Seems odd given you have the mechanic already in place, As far as game play with Shove thus far, it seems a bit OP as a bonus action. I am pushing people off cliffs and buildings with abandon, with all players. In a lot of situations its my default bonus action over others especially if I marry it with those things that grant saving throw bonuses.
Why not push Shove to an action per the rules, grant it as a bonus action for those that have the Shield Master feat? It grants more utility to Shield Master, makes it less inviting to other character classes that would normally be less inclined to use up their action for the Shove feature and thus balance is achieved.
Just a shove for thought.
Absolutely necessary in my opinion. Aside from nerfing the one handed play style, it's a nerf to supporting characters. They end up burning a spell slot just for enemies to "shove" out of the spell's effect.
Supporting and defensive characters are already at a disadvantage. They need to be given some meaningful play style features!
If Larian wants to be inventive, I would rather they rename the bonus action shove "shield bash". Add some extra chance to prone, damage, etc. I'd be okay with classes such as rogue having a weaker shove (call it "underhanded tactics". Make it better with rising level, while being something reasonable like a kick to the back). Aside from these two, it shouldn't be given out for free.
Larian wants to be inventive, I would rather they rename the bonus action shove "shield bash". Add some extra chance to prone, damage, etc. I'd be okay with classes such as rogue having a weaker shove (call it "underhanded tactics". Make it better with rising level, while being something reasonable like a kick to the back). Aside from these two, it shouldn't be given out for free.
Yeah I would love to see a "kick" shove for Rogues / Monks.
Shove is really fun as it is. Literally every single person I've watched play BG3 on Twitch or YouTube (and it's been a lot) has been utterly delighted by Shove as it is. Even if it unbalances things (literally, am I right?) some, it's so entertaining I don't think they should change it.
Changing the action economy has very little to do with the "fun" aspect of it. The shove would still be the same as an attack action, you just wouldn't be able to attack in addition to pushing someone into lava, or doing an "I win" push off a cliff.
While cutting the ridiculous distances could have a more of an impact of someone's casual fun, shorter distances need to be enforced on harder difficulties where players are looking for a more serious challenge than just abusing the same overpowered cartoony mechanics.
It's weird, I haven't used shove more than a handful of times (hah!) I've just never enjoyed those kinds of mechanics. I don't mind them being in-game, but I do not want the combat balanced around using things like shove. That would frustrate me, because it forces me to have a harder time because I don't want to use silly mechanics.
I agree with both of you. However, the comment by Firesnakearies was 2.5 years ago. This thread has suffered necromancy on a couple of occasions it appears.
Granted, I only noticed this because it featured a comment by me that I don't remember writing.
Shove is really fun as it is. Literally every single person I've watched play BG3 on Twitch or YouTube (and it's been a lot) has been utterly delighted by Shove as it is. Even if it unbalances things (literally, am I right?) some, it's so entertaining I don't think they should change it.
Sadly precisely why it will probably not change. Its a silly ability designed with social media in mind. Its so much Joly fun. Great PR for Larian! Does it make sense in D&D or Baldur's gate? Absolulity NOT! But who cares, its joly fun I guess...
At the very least Larian could fix the idiotically weird long arcing <flight?> animations. But I guess this is also done on purpose, to look silly by design? This game's 3D engine just boggles the mind. Its like they took the 8 year old DOS2 engine and build on top of that code; so the foundation is still this weird flimsy 3D of an engine that has TONS of no no rules. No flying, no day/night systems, no free camera...
With the boat load of cash BG3 will hopefully bring them, I really hope they design a brand new engine for DOS3...<sigh>
Maybe if they did implement a faithful rules version and the current version for those who like silliness? Or at least give shield master the option or making enemies prone with their shove... but the best solution is too at least have the option of making shove an action that also enables you to prone enemies, and shield master can do those things as a bonus action.
Maybe if they did implement a faithful rules version and the current version for those who like silliness? Or at least give shield master the option or making enemies prone with their shove... but the best solution is too at least have the option of making shove an action that also enables you to prone enemies, and shield master can do those things as a bonus action.
Ideally that would be the case. Larian implements 5e RAW except for necessary changes for a video game adaptation, and then adds various toggle options. Doing this could also massively boost replayability by providing essentially entirely new combat experiences. - Cantrip surfaces: on/off - Shove (and other universal actions): action/bonus action - Jump: BA w/disengage / BA without Disengage / Free action - High/Low Ground: Advantage / +2 / no bonus - Backstab: Advantage / +2 / no bonus - Food: In-combat healing / Req for Resting etc
https://www.instagram.com/p/Cp0WjkrtGED/ Case in point, brand new PR video on Instagram right now showcasing Shove as a fun and silly gimmick. "your free to toss folks to their doom..." God it looks bad. <sigh>
Maybe if they did implement a faithful rules version and the current version for those who like silliness? Or at least give shield master the option or making enemies prone with their shove... but the best solution is too at least have the option of making shove an action that also enables you to prone enemies, and shield master can do those things as a bonus action.
Ideally that would be the case. Larian implements 5e RAW except for necessary changes for a video game adaptation, and then adds various toggle options. Doing this could also massively boost replayability by providing essentially entirely new combat experiences. - Cantrip surfaces: on/off - Shove (and other universal actions): action/bonus action - Jump: BA w/disengage / BA without Disengage / Free action - High/Low Ground: Advantage / +2 / no bonus - Backstab: Advantage / +2 / no bonus - Food: In-combat healing / Req for Resting etc
I'm not sure, but my guess is that such options would have too many consequences on the AI. I'm not sure options can change the core game's mechanics.
Most options in WOTR, a game always praised for his number of options feels very "neutral" on the AI behavior. Food x1.5 for long rest / x1.5 damages / weight effects ON/OFF / prepare spells only at camp / ... even random encounter ON/OFF seems to me like options that can more reasonably be expected.
Ideally...Larian implements 5e RAW except for necessary changes for a video game adaptation, and then adds various toggle options. Doing this could also massively boost replayability by providing essentially entirely new combat experiences.
- Cantrip surfaces: on/off - Shove (and other universal actions): action/bonus action - Jump: BA w/disengage / BA without Disengage / Free action - High/Low Ground: Advantage / +2 / no bonus - Backstab: Advantage / +2 / no bonus - Food: In-combat healing / Req for Resting etc
I'm not sure, but my guess is that such options would have too many consequences on the AI. I'm not sure options can change the core game's mechanics.
Most options in WOTR, a game always praised for his number of options feels very "neutral" on the AI behavior. Food x1.5 for long rest / x1.5 damages / weight effects ON/OFF / prepare spells only at camp / ... even random encounter ON/OFF seems to me like options that can more reasonably be expected.
That's fair and an important consideration.
For some of these changes, you could simply have the AI weigh toggle options the same. E.g., High Ground Advantage vs +2 bonus. It'd make the AI act a bit suboptimally in some cases, but that's fine. But for others (e.g., Action vs BA Shove. High Ground bonus vs no bonus) the AI would need to be able to make use of each case individually.
I have no idea how hard it is to create different versions of enemy AI. The difficulty and worth of this task is up to Larian to decide, adding these options would make many players happier though.
It's weird, I haven't used shove more than a handful of times (hah!) I've just never enjoyed those kinds of mechanics. I don't mind them being in-game, but I do not want the combat balanced around using things like shove. That would frustrate me, because it forces me to have a harder time because I don't want to use silly mechanics.
The problem is that it doesn’t even matter if the player chooses to engage with the mechanic or not.
You still have the AI abusing the hell out of it, because once weighted the options it becomes really apparent that in most cases it’s the most valuable use of a bonus action it can make.
