This is not a "hate on Lae'zel" thread (for the record she's actually my favorite NPC), but it seems to me that the most likely outcome of going to a Gith creche is one of the following:

1) Lae'zel knows that she, and the entire party, will be killed pursuant to protocol, and the talk of a cure is false, intended to ensure compliance - the only reason I would doubt this possibility is that there are other ways to kill us and she's taking the risk of dying herself and not being able to ensure we bite the dust too (also her int and wis are high enough that she should know any plan that depends on her ability to deceive or persuade people is doomed from the start, or is lack of self awareness why cha is her dump stat?)
2) Lae'zel doesn't know because she's not senior enough yet, but while trainees are told to report to a creche for a cure, the actual protocol is to kill them under circumstances where you can be confident of success, and talk of a cure is false, intended to ensure compliance.

While I have no doubt that the Gith know more about ceremorphosis than anyone other than a mind-flayer, I do doubt they have enough access to recently infected hosts (ie before the point of no return) to have come up with a reliable cure, and given the nature of Gith culture I strongly suspect "life is cheap" is part of their philosophy and they have limited motivation to go out of their way to cure someone.

I personally suspect item 2 (I think it is more consistent with how the Gith knight acted, and also more plausible than Lae'zel's theory as to why things went down the way they did, and also more useful for the game when Lae'zel becomes playable as your MC) and is part of a story arc where in a later act she will, if her opinion of you is high enough, ultimately side with you in a conflict with her kin.

It's almost a shame that the NPCs will be playable "origin" characters. I like not being sure what their real agendas are, and I would actually have preferred that the scene with Raphael be animated such that it looks like you're alone in the room with him so you don't know what he said to the others or what their response was. That said, I will be very interested to see how the tutorial and content immediately after the crash plays out with different origin characters. If you're playing Lae'zel, do you meet someone else in the tutorial?

I'm confused, you are attempting to "predict" something the game is already showing in no dubious terms.

Also, no, she's not deliberately trying to mislead you.
It's more a case of her being exceedingly naive about it and facing a wake up call.

I do rather think that she is only marginally aware of her own culture and how they deal with tadpoles. She is not told anything, I believe. Or, since they make a total fuss to rescue her in the intro, she is very important and does not want to tell and/or that someone in the Gith society wants her dead. I still suspect she is some form of princess, messias incarnate, heiress, the breaker of chains and dragon necks etc., because there must not be normal, frontline grunt companions.

Honestly I still believe that Gith do have a cure and it's just that the Gith knight we meet is an ass.

Like, how could the Gith wage war against the mindflayers for (? eons?) and not have developed a cure?? (spoiler hag)
It would be pretty incompetent on their part if the Gith hadn't figured out a reliable way to remove a just-inserted tadpole.

I thought the Gith were chasing Shadowheart (or her little contraption) rather than Lae'zel.

When you mind delve into her after interrogating Zorru you essentially learn she see us as Mind-Flayers already, so I don't think there's any real ambiguity about what she feels our fate should be.

Maybe she was a handmaid of the Githyanki Queen?
I don't mean handmaid in the sense of just a servant, but sorta like the Sisters of Avelorn in Warhammer.

Granted I am not super read up on their lore here, but her obsession with the Queen would make a lot of sense then.

Edit: Also haha, she made me think of Jon in Season 8 of GoT.

'' MUH QUEEN! ''

Pretty sure she's just a normal gith who has an over-inflated sense of importance and is brainwashed to worship her queen.
Her whole goal is to "bring back a mindflayer head to her Queen (something that all githyanki have to do in order to become accepted) and become a gith knight." At least in my conversations with her, she never mentioned royalty...??

I also don't think they're trying to rescue her in the intro. They're just trying to kill the mindflayers on that ship, as gith are wont to do.

If I missed some dialogue implying otherwise, please let me know!

They are after artifact stolen by SH.

I'm with the "Wake up Call" -- yes the creche will be another fight but I don't think Lae'zel is in on it. We know Vlaakith deceives the Gith, I'm guess that the purification ritual was lie told to LZ.

oh right, duh. I guess I've been assuming that SH stole the arfifact from the mindflayer ship, but that actually doesn't make sense since she was trapped the whole time...
So wait, SH had the artifact. Had brought it back to BG3, almost completing her mission. But right before she delivered it, a mindflayer ship happened to spirit her away??? Talk about unlucky

Either way, this still supports my theory that Lae'zel is a complete nobody.

I picked up on that too, I've begun to wonder if her constantly referencing Vlaakith as the mother to all Githyanki is more than metaphorical for her.


Looking at this I find it especially telling that Lae'zel is the only character that doesn't get an option that deals with her past.

The mirror thing is especially pertinent here I reckon, I think they might have taken it out of the EA so as to not reveal Lae'zel's backstory too much.



This makes the most sense, considering there's very little reason for her to party up with you on any quest while her loyalty to the Githyanki is still unquestioned.

She's not a complete nobody, she does at least have some achievements under her belt -



- so she might be on the same level as Wyll.

Either that or she's lying, I don't want to mention who because I don't want to spoil but there is a certain someone in Pathfinder Kingmaker who does this and lies about their accomplishments.

Lae'zel is my favourite NPC. Integrity, naivety, and hopefully - a capability to change her worldview, losing tunnel vision, under the duress of adventuring (and seeing choices made by the main character). Larian, not a complete turnaround of a character, please - just when she'll understand that she is fully betrayed by her own people, she will need someone who has already proven reliable to trust in (thus affecting her mindset).

She sincerely thinks that all the infected have to die under gith control if Vlaakith commands, but she will save her child, won't she? (<no>), it's just she isn't afraid of this fate, while other, lesser creatures (us), are afraid and will try to escape this fate, probably making it worse for the world (making more mind flayers out of ourselves and going into hiding, thus making the hunting of us harder).

She really believes that with all her heart, that's why her deception isn't that obvious, while self-deception is.

please tell me it's not

Interesting, that would make sense of the dragon riding gith mentioning that her name seemed "regal".

Yeah, it was that line that tipped it over for me

Love this thread. I had my opinion but now I wonder...

Could be. The first time I heard her call herself "child of Vlaakith", I took it completely literally and assumed she was a githyanki princess, since I knew nothing about the culture, but as I played the game more I came to the conclusion that it was just what githyanki call themselves. Maybe Larian is being super clever here.

Isn't Vlaakith a lich, though? Can they even... never mind, don't want to think about it.

Its been a while since I read that issue of Dungeon that had the Githyanki invasion but I believe to remain a 'god' she consumed the essence of any Githyanki that reached...level 20? something like that, whether that makes her a literal undead Lich I don't know.
I'll be honest the extraplanar invasion plots in D&D never really grabbed my interest.

Yeah the 'eggs' surprised me. I haven't really followed the gith story since 1st ed Fiend Folio but the gith *used* to an early version of humanity that was captured and warped by the mind flayers. The whole issue of gith reproduction is confusing.

The term giyanki means children of Gith and Gith was their original leader, later replaced by the first Vlaakith.

This. She seems to sincerely believe we're gonna get cured and everything's gonna be lovely at the creche. Obviously when we get there, they are just gonna try to kill us, and then Lae'zel will be all disillusioned.

I wouldn't be surprised if Githzerai really do know how to cure it though, while Githyanki just kill the infected.

I'm pretty sure the Githyanki do have a process for curing tadpoles. Lae'zel actually mentions the process by name at one point. I'm even more certain that it won't work for our 'special' tadpoles.

As for Lae'zel . . . She seems to me to be fairly inexperienced and absolutely terrified of the situation she is in. All her aggression and hostility is trying to cover for the insecurity and terror she is feeling. My guess is that after she discovers that the creche cannot cure her, she will turn to the player for help, open up and mellow out a lot. Or perhaps she is some secret Githyanki of high rank, what the heck do I know.

I think a worrying sign should be that if you create a Githyanki character you'll get a dialogue option that goes more or less" I never heard of this cure" and she gets upset that you are doubting her.

Closer to the topic. Because the creche quest is the only one that leads to another map (I think), I've been wondering how it will either loop back into the grove-goblin quest or lead into the Moonrise Tower act, that they're giving this quest it's own map is interesting, do you think there might be a permanent Githyanki Hub we'll be going to, I'm also not sure if the route to the Creche is the same exit as for the overland route to the Moonrise Tower

Yeah I'm pretty sure she's just being naively hopeful/full of shit, even if her purification method is real its not working on our super tadpoles.

I've been assuming that the overland route to Moonrise Tower is the exit near the middle outpost (between the village and the actual goblin camp)


hmmm. Why would our default Githyanki character have different knowledge than her? Either she's higher up in the rankings than us (princess) or she is being deceived by someone...

The player PC seems older and more experienced than she is. We can talk about having been to Tu'narath, where as Lae'zel says she's never been to the Astral Plane before.

She also doesn't know how to say tiefling, something Githyanki have special dialogue on to explain to her. And the Gith PC can talk to the dragon-knight without offending him like Lae'zel does.

On both my Gith playthroughs I got the distinct feeling of being someone in his 30s hanging out with someone in their late teens to early twenties. Lae'zel acts like she's a fully matured adult but she's still very inexperienced in how adult life actually works.

Iirc her written said she was the equivalent of early 20s

Huh, interesting. Thanks for the insight. I haven't played through as a Gith yet.

Her being ~20 definitely matches her character...still doesn't rule out her being somehow extra knowledgeable, but definitely makes it less likely.

That is why I still think she is some form of secret and isolated being. Like a castout, or foster child. And for me the explanation that the Gith in then intro either want to desperately save/get hold of her is still more likely then them just attacking the mindflayer ship for some other reason.
Still I think the assessment of her not being a fully educated, something between child and adult seems logical. That is why I think she is indeed the most well-written, authentic companion.

I'd easily believe Lae'zal bears her "regal name" with a full right, in a hierarchical, orderly nation;

But it's not simply birthright. For a wild guess, she is from a "privileged" egg batch, but for now, reading Mordenkainen Tome of Foes, where the latest githyanki lore is told, I'm glad to see Larian just follows the lore given by someone else without trying to twist it for any reason.

Lae'zel behaves as normal githyanki would, even her arrogance toward the knight's orders seem normal; he can order his subordinates, but not her until she is in his squadron (which she wouldn't be).

I always kinda wondered about her too... far as i remember, there is a point you can use the "illithid wisdom" to determine she is hiding something about her cure plan, but not what... i assumed it was that she was using the party to get herself a cure or that she was originally just trying to get the party to the gith before to be put down prior to realizing these tadpoles were "different"... wasn't really able to determine which was more likely though...

I personally feel that there's a lot of vanilla D&D lore that could use some twisting.

My biggest misgiving about BG:3s story was how much they've said it ties in to Descent into Avernus which was a bit underwhelming.

I'd hate to derail this theme and thread, so here is my thoughts, concerning what you've said: https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=729817#Post729817

We know the Tieflings are from Elturel and Zevlor is a Hellrider, they went into Avernus during the Descent (if you fail a history check they'll tell you about it) actually I don't know that, they could have been outside the city when it's taken I don't remember and are now back (or are going to BG after Elturel was taken), presumably after the events of the module, we also know that recently Duke Ravenguard was kidnapped by Absolute Drow, a conspicuously familiar event. If these things are the beginnings of a total rewrite of Descent into Avernus, more power to them.

I've never run Descent but I'm an avid reader of thealexandrian blog so I'm pretty familiar with the goings on. I recommend his remix for anyone who likes well thought out worldbuilding and design philosophy.

Pretty sure she is special. The way she talks after we meet the Dragon knight, its seems obvious that she knows the queen personally and has ulterior motives. She was chosen for a very important mission, too. And she has tons of confidence, she doesn't talk like a trainee, she talks like an elite soldier who knows a lot. In that regard, I think she is a lot like Sebille, Edgy, dangerous, and sort of a chosen one for a task. Or a candidate to be chosen one, at the very least. Like the queen personal captain or something like that.

I would like it if Lae'zel was not actually special at all, but just delusional about her own importance.

Iirc Vlaakith has no heirs, that's why she turned herself into a lich.

Least I remember seeing that somewhere.

Idk man, im still pretty sure she's just faking it. A Dragon Knight should know her if she's important and she should have a silver sword

She says part of becoming a kithrak is getting a silver swords, so she shouldn't have one yet.

Yeah, but Sebille was the heiress of the Elven throne in DOS and she was barely more than slave when we met her. Maybe the dragon knight doesn't know Lae'Zel because he is not important enough to know, or just oblivous to Lae'Zel mission.

Maybe she is like the hero of Farseer trilogy, Fitz. An assassin or a secret agent that only the most important people know.

Or maybe she is just a delusional trainee, yeah.

In fairness, she could've been separated from it too.
It might even be a quest later to retrieve her sword.

If she was, she'd have turned against us at the Githyanki Patrol.

I mean she technically does it, the only problem that she did not consider is that she was on the trapped side too

Vlaakith became a lich for power alone. She drains the life force of her highest level minions to increase that power. That's why in older editions where the githyanki knights reached 16th level (or I think 10/10 fighter- mage in 2nd ED) before they could reach 17th level she'd sacrifice them to both get stronger herself and to ensure that none of her subjects could usurp her.. the way she usurped the ruler before her. I know she's not actually monitoring their levels, but that's what it said about her in either 2E or 3E.

I agree that Lae'zel has a naive view of her own people. Or she has an elevated position and believes that a dragon rider should defer to her even though she is not yet one herself. If I remember right they do have a caste system with nobility.