Playing BG3 should feel like you're reading an epic fantasy novel. Unfortunately, BG3 has some elements which makes me feel like I'm reading a fairy tale. So, I think that at least these elements should be removed from the game:

Talking to animals and corpses
I have read a lot of fantasy novels, and none of them has a main character who talks to all the animals and corpses he sees. This mechanic gives the game a comedic element, but it takes away epicness from the world and the story.

Witch in a cabin
This storyline is directly from fairy tales, and it should not be part of an epic fantasy story. The biggest problem is that the witch is an empty stereotype, who hurts people because she is evil. Turn her into a sorceress, who has a real background and motives. Also, she should not be completely evil.

Cant tell if serious orrrrrr

Trolls posting low-effort bait and then feigning ignorance and acting offended when people point and laugh as a response has become entirely too common around here.

Hyper-intolerant people labelling everyone who has a different opinion a troll is a much worse problem here.

You are aware of that a lot of fantasy novels contains elements of what you call "fairy tales", right? What you might deem appropriate in a fantasy novel might not be ideal or appropriate for another person/player.

I play all RPGs with the same mindset - I use them as an alternative to reading fantasy novels (which I do... A LOT), and I don't think BG3 has failed in that perspective, quite the opposite.

Using your own examples: a hag in the swamp is a bit stereotypical, sure. But where's the harm in that? I loved that part, especially singe my ranger had unique responses that I felt was really appropriate to the situation.

And talking to animals... Like, uhm... Lord of the Rings, one of the most famous fantasy serie of all times contain characters that can talk to animals - like Radagast. If it is appropriate for your character (which is decided by no one else but the player), then what is the issue? :x

Just because something might be common in "fairy tales", doesn't mean that is out of place in a fantasy novel. <.< I mean, if we are gonna get REALLY technical, "fairy tales" per definition is just short stories made up from difference aspects of folk lore. Almost all fantasy novels are also, at least partly, inspired by folk lore ... :x

Actually playing baldurs gate 3 should feel like warm apple pie OP

Playing Baldur's Gate 3 should feel like a great salmon sandwich

Fairy tales about tantacles splitting through your skull and horny companions around, I can see your point now. Remove talking with corpses please.

larian remove warlock pls, reason: not in lord of the rings, makes my tummy hurt

Larian remove the game please

Playing BG3 should feel like being tickled with peacock feathers by a pig dressed in a ballerina costume.

It doesn't, and I'm disappointed.

Playing BG3 should feel like playing a video game.

Shh, I'm afraid they'll listen to you.

you guys are a bunch of dicks.

being a dick is dictating how baldur's gate 3 should feel

. . .

Trolling taking place on trolling thread.

I also thought of this. Not sure if intended.

It absolutely has to be. Alice has a pretty wicked sense of humor.

Good jokes, but I have to agree with the OP. Bioware games like DA:O are very consistent in establishing a mood, supported by world building, story, characters, music, presentation, gameplay, that feels like an immersive, traditional fantasy novel.

Larian games like DOS:1, DOS:2 and now BG:3 feel like a theme park of random fantasy cliches. The mood is all over the place. And this is true for every building block, starting with the highly inconsistent maps, a collection of party members that make the doom patrol look like average joes, gameplay elements that feel like shenanigans from a mischievous teenie comedy, a tutorial that starts with the DnD equivalent of an alien attack combined with an earthquake etc. etc.

DA:O, if it were a movie, would have been a moderately successful rip-off of LotR. BG:3, as well as its spiritual predecessors DOS:1 and DOS:2, would be in production hell, where the A team thought it was doing a spoof movie, the B team thought it was doing a melodrama, the writers thought they were creating a TV action series that is really a deep political allegory tackling a different topic each episode, the director would have a psychotic breakdown in the cutting room, and the producer would be fixated on the CGI action and the sex scenes and would want to publish the whole thing anyway, because that's what people pay to see, in the end.

LOL, so much this!

"Talking to animals and corpses"
Talking to animals it's optional and can be ignored afaik. Talking to corpses is part of some quests, it's necromancy, I don't know if that is or not part of D&D lore. I gave the amulet to Lae'zel, she is quite the talker (didn't object), so the main character isn't involved.

"Witch in a cabin"
That old lady isn't a witch, but a hag. Green Hag (I think that's D&D lore agan, but can't confirm). Should be the same, but Baldur's Gate calls them Hag. I met an NPC in BG2 recently (just started BG2 first time) and she insisted that what they have in that castle is a "cellar", not a dungeon...

I would agree that some things feel out of place (though can't any at moment, maybe the constant explosive barrels and the overuse of acid and fire surfaces), but these 2 not quite, except the talking with animals (but if can be safely ignored shouldn't be an issue).

Also aren't fantasy novels & fairy tales the same (except their length) in the same way the witch & hag are related?
Fairytale fantasy

That sounds like the ending episodes of the Game of Thrones.

Playing baldurs gate 3 should feel like a hard scifi novel, can we get some accurate fight dynamics for the nautiloid please, anything would destroy my verisimilitude.

Well BG3 does feel like it was written by a horny creative writing intern that saw the front cover of the D&D adventure novel and instantly became an expert though the picture on the front cover. I fail to understand how suggesting that creative and immersive world building is "being a dick"? Meh.

Some of the characters are okay, not particularly interesting enough to want to play origin stories though. I understand there are generic NPC personality types in RL like Wyll and Ast.....the vampire guy that acts like a celebrity wedding planner, but they don't translate to interesting NPC's in game. Gale is pretty interesting from a "no I don't want to bump uglies mate cheers" kind of way and Shadowheart acts like a 46 year old demented purple haired emo chick in need of HRT. Lae'zel acts like Gith, angry, bossy, superiority complex.....hates everyone including herself, pretty good actually.

All have wildly unlikely and overly complex personal dilemmas. The unlikely part being you all happen to be in the same group because "the script" needs it to be that way. Generic McGuffin based storyline, "we all have a thing, lets work together and go find someone that knows of thing". Everyone you meet in EA cannot help you because "script error".

SPOILERS

Devil - I can remove the tadpole
You - ok then go ahead mate
Devil - No have to wait because.....Mooooooooooo
Devil - Pooooof!
You - Eh? Weirdo

Druid - I can help you
You - Ok mate crack on
Druid - Oh no I need you to kill 500 goblins first
You - ok all dead, now remove the thing
Druid - No lets wait and piss about Ill do it later
You - Okay
later......
You - Ok dicksplash remove the fucking tadpole
Druid - I cannot but I know a man who can, he just so happens to be in a dangerous place where I need to go to solve some personal BS
You - So I just fucked about for 3 weeks doing a bunch of bullshit only for you to tell me that? Bollocks! I am going to kill EVERYONE

Hag - I can remove the tadpole
You - FFS you better not be bullshitting cus everyone seems to be taking the piss recently
Hag - No mate I just need one of your balls
You - I don't have balls I am a bird
Hag - My bad one of your eyes then
You - Will it blind me?
Hag - Narrr I just like to fiddle with it for a second for no reason
You - That's not wierd at all and I am not even curious from this point, so what the hell
Hag - POP, cheers for that
You - Ow
Hag - Lets remove the tadpole........Oh no I can't it's a naughty magic tadpole, soz
You - .........growling
Hag - We cool right? 'holds out fist'
You - ARRRRRR SMASH!!

So act 1 is basically running all over the place doing a load of crap for bunch of lying arsewipes only to be left at square one..... Progress! You did learn to hate pretty much everyone you met during this shitshow. I think killing everyone including Druids, Tieflings, Fay and goblins....then eating them, is the next playthough. Leave the entire map dead, burn it all down. Ill keep the damn tadpole, by this point it hasn't screwed me over. I want to be a mindflayer, screw it Ill move to the underdark.

I forgot the dynamic choice engine.

Choice 1) Not fight, pending dice roll
Choice 2) Fight

Disclaimer - ^^^^ this is satire for the ironically challenged.

Adding the ability to chat with everything living or dead has left the real dialogue stretched thin. The guys in your camp you speak to alot have like 3 lines each. I understand what OP is getting at. It is early in EA so I assume it will get filled out.

Pretty much this. Every fantasy story is full of tropes. Simply due to the sheer volume of fantasy available, no matter how you uniquely you flavor it, you're going to find patterns that relate to other stories, and as far as optional story based stuff(and even the combat related complaints like about barrelmancy) are negated by simply ignoring them when you see fit. Even then, talking with animals and dead people is an actual thing in Dungeons and Dragons, and some characters actually are able to speak with them at will, but whether they choose to or not is entirely on them. It might be pointless or a waste of time to talk to every animal you see, but at least the game gives us that choice.

I'm pretty sick of every single criticism of this game having a legion of obnoxious trolls pouncing on it with stuff like "TROLL!" or "can't tell if serious" etc

There are a lot of legitimate gripes about this game

The awful characters, whimsical writing, lack of BG-esque anything, are all serious concerns that longtime fans of the series have

A bunch of late teens / early 20s diehard DOS fans don't change that.

Harsh and disrespectful statement but I can relate and therefore have to agree on this.

If we don't get to use our bonus action Shove to push some fools into the hard vacuum of space, I'm gonna riot.

"LoNg TiMe FaNs Of ThE sErIeS" dude it's a 22 year old game that had a single sequel nearly 20 years ago. If you want YET ANOTHER Infinity Engine clone, there's a shit ton available, go play one of those. That's not what this developer is doing, and you probably wasted your money hoping for one. For every one of you people who want an updated Icewind Dale, there's probably another 10 who like the direction this game is going.

Ok zoomer!

No good argument can come from starting with "BG should feel.."

People are free to express their opinions, so long as they are not going for personally offensive or breaking any laws. Those opinions may be positive or negative.

When you see posters making fun of a topic, it is generally a sign that they do not agree with the OPs position and find it so strange an idea as to be funny. It is better to use humour than insults and attacks. Childish, perhaps, but sometimes we like to go down that route as an escape from the Real World. Better childish than snarky and inflammatory.

Calling people trolls all the time is pretty tiresome and a lazy go-to, but so is labelling people as, "A bunch of late teens / early 20s diehard DOS fan". That you complained about people calling 'troll' whilst simultaneously calling 'troll' does very little for any legitimate argument you may have.

You can't complain about people calling people trolls, while calling them trolls.

All of your gripes are just your opinion. You're welcome to have your opinion, you're welcome to express your opinion, you're welcome to try to convince others of the merit of your opinion. But don't act like your opinion is objective fact.

I like the characters and the writing, and I think this is a perfectly good Baldur's Gate game.

And I was playing Dungeons and Dragons in 1985, so don't try to discount anyone who disagrees with you by implying that they all must be young and clueless.

There are persuasive ways to make your arguments. Insulting people is not one of them.

BG3 shoul feel like a cringe post

I just want the game be made how I want it. Clear?! That's why I paid 250 billion $ and will pay 500 billion $ when will be ready. The age of custom built games is here.

Also don't care what others want, especially the developers and owners of the company making it. They don't know what sells, what is fun and how to make it properly.

"dUDe iTs a 22 yEaR oLD GaME"

They chose to call it BG3 and try to take on that legacy, only for the team to put zero (0, zilch, nada) effort into making it feel like a baldurs gate game. You'd expect the team to have familiar themes, writing, atmosphere, even UI and music callbacks - newp.

Metroid Prime by Retro Studios did a great job of recapturing the essence of a Metroid game while making it completely new, and different

XCOM: EU (2012) by Firaxis did a great job of recapturing the essence of an XCOM game while making it new and different

Larian hasn't even bothered. I couldn't care less that it's not an IE game. I want a game that feels like a Baldurs Gate game - and this one doesn't.

That isn't an argument.

from another post of mine:

The context of the post was my answer to the Gameplay Vs story discussion going on sometimes here. It doesn't even matter whether you agree with me or not. The point is, that BG "feels" quite different for different people. and you can't create anything based on it unless you try to give us something more conclusive than feelings.

man so many people have no idea.

But i suppose thats a given. Most fantasy novels are trash afterall, so no wonder that people who are into that also enjoy trash and cannot enjoy some whimsy every now and then.

maybe as a science fiction man myself i just cannot get into the cringey kind of fantasy that takes itself too seriously in the vein of Dragon Age.

Fantasy novels, or any other novel, relies on the author's ability to weave a plot and mesh characters.

They don't work as games. As soon as players get involved, the plot goes to hell and the player-characters change everything. Your average FRPG campaign is fun to play but would make a dreadfully dull novel. The Hobbit would probably have started with Bilbo pickpocketing the dwarfs or trying to murder them.

I accept when people use the word "feel" in reference to the original BG the context of emotions it is very subjective and could "feel" different to pretty much everyone. But "feel" has two meanings, emotional and physical. Some people argue that BG3 doesn't "feel" in a mechanical sense anything like D&D or the original BG. How is this not a valid argument when there are megathreads giving hard evidence to each and every conflict? Literally hundreds of mechanical conflicts from D&D 5e. This is evidence based opinion NOT my feelypoos are hurting because "reasons".

If you sit on a bike it is not going to "feel" like sitting in a car.

The very first Forgotten Realms novel Darkwalker on Moonshae by Douglas Niles was a straight up Arthurian fairy tale. Complete with a a trip to Fairy itself and teaming up with a fairy dragon. Fairy was just renamed the Feywild to sound cooler.
BTW, I highly recommend that book. It is EXCELLENT.

Lol at most of these replies...

I swear to God I am not stalking you and picking fights.

One could say you cannot write a personal biography as a Choose Your Own Adventure story, and yet that is precisely what Neil Patrick Harris, and actually quite a few others, have done. It isn't a bad idea, it is simply incredibly difficult to execute it well. When Philip K Dick wrote the Man in the High Castle, he did it by writing a scene, consulting the I Ching to determine an outcome, described it arriving at its natural conclusion, then consulted again to see what would happen next. Writing for a CRPG must be something similar. It cannot simply be one compelling narrative. . .It must be several, all interwoven, with the character determining the ensuing branch at those points where they all meet.

Think of it as several and distinctly varied alternate realities which the player navigates at points where they overlap in order to make a new and unique timeline of events from a combination of them all. It is difficult to do well. No one argues that it is not, but those efforts which have made honest and earnest efforts in that direction are quite often dearly loved by those who get to experience what they have to offer. I tend to think it is why we are all here. I love literature, it is incredibly rewarding, but the little boy who resides in my heart wants desperately to be a part of one and not simply experience them vicariously.

We can and should give feedback, even if it's just a vague "I don't like it", or "doesn't feel like a Baldur's Gate 2 expansion". Because the devs asked for it. It's all good.

Despite our best efforts, and even if we give them a very detailed list of what needs changed to make it feel more like the old Baldur's Gate games, it's too late for that. The game will look, feel and sound, more or less the same as the early access part. Some tweaks here or there, reasonable changes and extra options can be expected, but more would require starting over the whole project.

I still see that there is real passion among the old Baldur's Gate players. True feelings. 20 years have passed, and their love for those games are still alive. Any game that can achieve that, deserves respect. That is a great achievement.

I'm just playing BG2 now for the first time, and have to admit, it's a great game with a captivating story line. The only thing I would change is to add ray traced modern graphics, because deserves the best, not because needs it. These games should be updated now and then with latest tech and sold at maximum price, because they still deserve to stay at top of sales.

I can understand why BG 3 isn't like BG 2 now. While BG 3 can become a great game, will never feel like BG 2. Just like how the Star Wars: The Old Republic MMO it's nothing like Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic, despite both being made by Bioware. The gameplay and story structure it's just vastly different. What is sad that in both these cases the old games have richer story lines, that is both complex and emotional, and a gameplay that fits in, while the new games look and sound better, but have simplified stories (the cost of adding voice and cut scenes everywhere) and their gameplay feel more grindy, clunky and slow.

I don't think it's reasonable at this point expecting BG 3 to change that much. All the work invested in these resources would be wasted, since they can't fit in a BG 2 style game. The only hope that remains, it's an advanced editor that allows a complete rework of everything: UI, fight systems, dialogues, even rewriting the story, creating companions, removing or reworking jump and pathing, and so on. Basically creating a completely new game, like other major mods did building on top of the Skyrim engine and resources.

I like BG3 as it is (can still become great and sell well), but now that I played half of BG2 (so far) I already know that is not something I would call BG3 either. It's just not fair. Everything is different. How would Star Wars movie fans feel if the next episode would use hip-hop music instead John Williams classics? And on top of that, everything will look and feel different, except the lore references? There is nothing wrong creating different movies and games, but changes have to be gradual. I would hate if the pizza I ordered tastes like a chocolate cake, even if I like both.

The great Radagast "spoke the many tongues of birds" So there is precedent. I do feel for the people who feel let down by the games EA direction and writing though. Pleasing everyone was never going to be easy. I'm still happy to see how it develops though......It could be awesome.

I'm interested in reading the novels you've written, sir and/or madam. Since you state (as an objective fact, apparently) that most fantasy novels are trash, I can only assume that you are, yourself, a novelist with some considerable expertise on what makes a novel NOT "trash". Where can I find your works?

narrative structure is narrative structure.

the level of agency given to the audience impacts the ability for the narrative to effect catharsis in a purely narrative form.

videogames are an ergodic mediated experience, and as such, the effect of catharsis is produced via the interactive processes at play.

one of the biggest issues with BG3 is precisely that the player character is not the agent of the story. at all. in any way - particularly because of the emphasis on the origin characters.

your game robs the player of affecting narrative outcome - BY DESIGN.

Baldur's Gate 2 and Planescape Torment were masterpieces regarding the story and character/world building.

Larian has its own atmosphere which is quite different. For some reason they reused the "main" story of DOS2 act 1 for BG3 act 1.
Motivation is "survival" without time pressure or other motivations. It is just making the story weaker.

BG2 wasn't ANYWHERE near the same league of Planescape: Torment when it comes to narrative and writing.
It was probably a better game overall, when you pile all its system to the comparison, but when it comes to dialogues, character writing, narrative and what else they are barely even competing in the same discipline.

Torment was arguably among the top two-three examples of writing ever seen in a videogame, regardless of the genre.
BG1 and 2 make for a barely serviceable fantasy romp with cartoony characters, cheap tropes at every turn and silly humor all over the place.

I was just about to say this. Torment is a timeless masterpiece. BG2 is pretty good, for its time.

Ah yes the old argument of "you need to write a novel to cirtize it"
well then. You better play FATAL then unless youve developed your own TTRPG system.

WRiting a novel takes tons of time, writing one also doesnt make you a better critic. The majority of fantasy out there is either derivative trash, romance schlock or historical fiction written by people who dont want to do research.

In my opinion good fantasy fiction comes not from fantasy novels but from other media, such as games. The fantasy genre lends itself ot visual or interactive media. I cannot say why Science Fiction still produces good new books and fantasy doesnt, perhaps the barrier to entry, at least for semi hard sci fi, is much higher than for fantasy. Perhaps fantasy got a boom and thus its got more trash. I cannot say why it is, but i know what im observing. Even fantasy books that get hailed as amazing turn out to be pretty bad when you compare em to other kind of literature.
and i say that as someone whose not a ltierature snob. I always loathed the ghettoization of fantasy, science fiction and recently crime novels.
None of this is an excuse to be terrible writers.

To get me back to my original point. Whimsy is good. Theres nothing wrogn with it. Tolkien did it deliberatley. It makes somehting feel more like a story, a myth. Fantasy will never be history, it ought not to be, it is better told as myth and legend.

Actually, playing BG3 should feel like you're wearing Mukluk slipper socks on a hot summer afternoon. Sure they're too warm, but the floors are sticky and all your regular socks have holes in them.

+1 from a cranky old xenial who played the damn games when they were fresh. This game is fine.

There's enough Get Of My Lawn flavoured nostalgia being thrown around this week to drown in ten times over. It's never going to be a BG2 clone because we *spoiler alert* Don't play games of floppy disks and use dial up anymore. We're playing PC games in the TWENTY FIRST CENTURY! Almost the end of the first quarter of the century. Why would any company worth their salt go back to counting individual pixels and out of date D&D rule systems?

And if people are using "talking to animals is for fairytales" as an argument.... take it up with Arwen, there was plenty of communing with bunnies and horses in LOTR and no one had issues with her doing it.

I swear, this is why the human race can't have nice things.

*** Edit: Yes yes, metaphorical bunnies, I know Arwen didn't actually commune with thumper or whatever...

Hmm, I do not agree that a computer game - which is an interactive medium - should feel like a book, which is not one. I do think games can learn a lot from both movies and books, the writing quality in games is generally not very good and can be markedly improved, but I don't think that games should feel like books, they should feel like games. With that being said however, the complaint raised in the OP seems to be pretty reductionist and gives a flawed representation of fantasy writing. Terry Pratchett is a fantasy author and a pretty damn good one, I would say when it comes to storytelling, his books are the ones which Larian games remind me the most of. Just because a fantasy novel does not have the tone of say a book written by Brent Weeks or Sanderson, does not mean it isn't a fantasy novel. Not every book or game needs to have the same tone and you can tell an excellent story with a satirical and whimsical tone, which Pratchett illustrates very well.

My biggest take away from what I think OP is trying to say and how I feel as well. Is that yes there are times the game feels like a fairy tale story instead of a gritty dark fantasy story. It doesn't bother me as much, as the story still remains as the story and the action of the game is totally separated by the music score and its own elements. I'd have to say...its sometimes the female narrator that makes the game feel...like a bedtime fairy tale story. Mixed with the funny and silly quirky things you can do, some narrations are very sleep inducing. Not in a bad way, but in a nice cozy fantasy bed time story way.

Well I checked what Terry Pratchet wrote, but I classify him as short parody writer or if not parody then SCIFI writer.

Baldurs Gate 3 is medieval fantasy and not SCIFI.

I think it is a shame that Dungeons Dragons writing has gone down...

Yes there are some writers like R.A Salvatore used to be a fan of his older books and then lost interest in his work at least a bit. Yes there are other good Dungeons Dragons books but few can match the original Drow story of Drizzt Do Urden the first 3 book and the 3 books after that Icewind Dale...
I enjoyed the 9 first books with Drizzt Do Urden but in time it gets boring he is invincible and never dies.
Cleric quintlet 5 books is also good story with a Cleric Cadderly as main character.

There exists separately a series of Harper books with many different authors they are separate stories each book and I have read all of them 16 books.
The Harpers series
The Parched Sea (July 1991) – Troy Denning
Elfshadow (September 1991) – Elaine Cunningham
Red Magic (December 1991) – Jean Rabe
The Night Parade (June 1992) – Scott Ciencin
The Ring of Winter (November 1992) – James Lowder
Crypt of the Shadowking (April 1993) – Mark Anthony
Soldiers of Ice (December 1993) – David Cook
Elfsong (January 1994) – Elaine Cunningham
Crown of Fire (April 1994) – Ed Greenwood
Masquerades (July 1995) – Jeff Grubb & Kate Novak
Curse of the Shadowmage (November 1995) – Mark Anthony
The Veiled Dragon (June 1996) – Troy Denning
Silver Shadows (June 1996) – Elaine Cunningham
Stormlight (October 1996) – Ed Greenwood
Finder's Bane (July 1997) – Jeff Grubb & Kate Novak
Thornhold (August 1998) – Elaine Cunningham


I really also tried the 90 ies released The Daughter of The Drow and found first book to very interesting, but already on second book in that triology have hard time to finish that book.

I'm a big fan of Drizzt, I've read most of the dark elf books but got overwhelmed after like the 9th one haha but they were all really good. On the point of the game's story tho, the meat and back bone of this thing, I think its really compelling already. I know the EA game has several push along narratives so we can finish what they've given to us so far. But nothing feels out of place for a medieval fantasy. The hag seemed like a beautiful twist, the devil has me intrigued, and the sheer amount of voice acted and individualized goblins blew my mind.

Terry Pratchett is not what I would call a Sci Fi author although he sometimes employs elements of Sci Fi. What he wrote is probably best described as Satirical Fantasy. The point of mentioning him was to illustrate that not all fantasy is written with the same tone, there are many different ways to depict fantasy. You could go with a really dark, gritty world like Brent Weeks, or you could go with a world that takes itself less seriously like Pratchett. You could have a black and white world where good and evil is clearly delineated like the Lord of the Rings or the Wheel of Time, or worlds with more shades of grey like the world created by GRRM. Quite frankly its almost insulting to these authors to compare their writing to the writing in the forgotten realms however, since these people, unlike Greenwood etc, can actually write good books.

I like fairy tales ... the original ones written by the Brothers Grimm. Not like Disney versions at all ... lots of heads get chopped off, vague moral values, and not always a happy ending. Not for kids!

As far as writing for a computer role playing game (CRPG), one example I can think of is "Pillars of Pentagarn" by Rose Estes. It's a quick read which allows the reader to choose a course of action at various points in the story, such as "turn to page 33 if you decide to climb down the shaft" and stuff like that. It's very clever. This one is OK for kids, though I warn you not all the endings are happy, either. (* laughs like Vincent Price *)

People tend to overhype Torment in the same way they do BG2. They are both excellent games, judged by the standards of their time, and they can hold their own pretty well even today as long as the player can deal with the graphics and dated gameplay.

But timeless? Eh, having played both of them relatively recently, they both show their age, though perhaps in different ways. In particular, Torment's conversation trees aren't, as a general rule, nearly as complex or meaningful as people seem to remember them being. The game has a strong narrative core and a number of NPC interactions that have a lot of branches and/or very well-written dialogue (e.g. Ravel, The Transcendent One, Pragmatic Incarnation, arguably Dak'kon). But it also suffers from the gameplay getting in the way of the story a lot. Combat is an afterthought and not all that avoidable apart from some key story moments and a substantial number of dialogue options are locked behind attribute requirements (some of them very high).

Credit where it's due, though, it *is* deeper than the BG series by a good margin and does the "gang of unique characters with crazy backstories" a lot better than BG3 (although that is partly because of its setting).

Here we go with your subjective taste and you have not named a single fantasy medieval book of your author.

Ed Greenwood bad author? I am pretty sure you have not read his best books.
https://www.amazon.com/Stormlight-Forgotten-Realms-Ed-Greenwood/dp/0786905204
That one of my favorite Harper books. You dont have a clue what the danger is it is mystery book. Have some horror feeling also when you do not know who or what kills?

You dont trust me?
Here is a link of best Dungeons Dragons books:
https://yourmoneygeek.com/dnd-books/
Among them is also mentioned the Harper books.

Your author is not mentioned among them. I do not care about your satiric comedy. I generally in movies and Tv series like Action and Horror maybe a bit Drama. Fine slitghtly comedy a few moments is ok fun, but I have never cared about satirical comedy movies unless some rare satiric Horror movie then maybe lol.

What about Harry Potter then? Well I think it is more for the children never read those books though I liked the first Harry Potter movie very much when it was a new fresh idea. Ok sometimes a bit less serious and for children fantasy is fine. Harry Potter is also those light fantasy movies a parent can watch with their children.

That said I am not looking for Harry Potter feel to Baldurs Gate 3, but if it has some fun moments then fine.

I like Action (fight), Horror (Horror monsters and scary monsters or classic horror monsters, big Trolls, Vampires, Werewolves, Undead, Demons and Dragons), Drama (Drama story not everyone always survive 100%) and if among them is few fun moments then fine, but generally I do not like comedy or satirical comedy. A horror mystery is also very interesting. Romance and specially full nudity is also fine with me.
Oh and though I mentioned Action a good main story is nice to have.

ITT People complaining that Larian is too much Pratchett and demanding them to be more like GRRM.

I would like to add that some good old Asimov would do the game good as well (in terms of having the feeling of witnessing a grand scheme you gradually uncover and discover you have some part to play in)

I have read most of his books, albeit, a very long time ago. I did not think they were very well written and felt exceptionally gamified, having a very strong "I cast fireball" feeling to them. The same goes for most of the books set in the Forgotten Realms (FR).

I am not sure what you are trying to prove here. Firstly, that is a subjective list which doesn't even give its criteria for which it decided what counts as best. Secondly, fantasy is not defined by the FR, in terms of fantasy writing, the FR has barely any influence. Terry Pratchett has sold 85m books, other authors like CS Lewis, Suzanne Colins, etc have also sold a ton. D&D is a hugely influential tabletop game, but it is - not - something which is hugely influential in terms of the fantasy genre as a whole and it is especially not particularly influential when it comes to writing. People do not buy into the FR for the writing, its not the selling point of the FR and that is ok. People buy into the FR for a fun collaborative experience which can be had at a table over a couple of drinks.


As I have said before, I don't actually care for the writing in the FR at all, compared to other fantasy writing it is just not very good. It doesn't have the depth of characterization of authors like Robin Hobb, or the world building of Sanderson/Robert Jordan. When I am talking about fantasy writing, I am not talking about just the FR, because the FR does not define fantasy as a whole, it is just a small (and quite frankly, not very important) part of it. Trying to define fantasy by only using the FR is setting the bar for writing so low that even an earthworm could crawl over it, because even if you ignore the books written in it, the setting itself just doesn't make much sense and isn't built well at all.

In terms of narrative realism, the setting has so many flaws, for example, pretty much every nation should be ruled over by some form of magical organization, whether they are wizards, warlocks, priests or druids. Tyranny should be the natural state of order, because in a setting with dramatically different levels of power, this is the logical consequence. Furthermore, there are other damn well gaping issues, like how society has been more or less in a technological stasis for 1000's of years. I could go on and on about the (quite frankly) glaring problems the FR has as a setting, but you get the point.


I am not sure what Harry Potter has got to do with anything.

The OP of this thread said, "the game should feel like a book." I pointed out that there are books which have a similar feel to the DOS games in terms of brevity. I also pointed out that, its probably not a good thing for a game to, "feel like a book" in the first place. Games are an interactive medium, an excellent game is a game that leans into this and takes advantage of the fact that there is some back and forth between the player and isn't just a one way channel where the player reads what is told to them. A bad example of a game, "reading like a book," is the pillars of eternity games, where there was plenty of verbose dialogue used to give character descriptions which you could completely cut out and replaced with a picture of the character next to the dialogue box which would convey the same information and cut down the dialogue by, I would guess, about 70%. Things like character emotions could also be shown through animated characters and actions, rather than through text and this is better taking advantage of the medium as a whole. Gameplay mechanics that mesh and integrate well into the story are also an example of a game taking advantage of its medium, its too bad not many games do things like this though.

Well I think it's dreadful that anyone would include any references to Pratchett. *cough*

I think there's room for both. I'm not even sure that I'd categorise GRRM as the yardstick of fantasy anyway as it's the worst* sort of timeless political backstabbing in a fantasy setting, which sometimes feels more like window-dressing. Admittedly I'm not sure that there is a "the yardstick" as there are many facets and it comes down to what we're used to and our personal preferences.


I'm as bad with authors as I am with films. Is Asimov another one who injected a lot of humour or am I thinking of someone else? I know that Clarke was one to leave mysteries unsolved (e.g. Rendezvous with... Rama? Dave? whatevs) which I wish ME3 had paid heed to.

Edit: * "worst" as in nastiest, not writing, except that there's a lot of it for my meagre concentration to deal with.

I am still downloading the game slowly form gog.com bought it yesterday. I did not complain. I told what I wish. When I have played it I can sure give more feedback.

As for GRRM.... I might be called TROLL for this. I am not fan of him as author and barely with great effort managed to see Game of Thrones TV series which I consider one of the most overhyped fantasy TV series. Boring fantasy in mid seasons I have a friend who stopped seeing he could not stand to see it. A bunch of children actors and none charismatic actors with few exceptions like John Snow. Well and the person who killed Witch King...she looks like a little child. You know a woman hero is fine but then take an ELITE welltrained fit looking fighter that is not short.

Titta Keinänen from my country Finland is one of the worlds top ranked Karate women in women heavy weight

no maximum weight she is a tall and strong, fast and agile woman and not some short unfit looking child looking girl that manages to kill Witch King.

I am not a weak man and I have trained Tae Kwon Do in the past that is basically pretty much same as Karate. They have a judge but if someone would say please take full contact match vs Titta Keinänen then I would say please no thanks even during my best fit days. At her top ranking at one point Titta Keinänen was considered number 2 in world ranking in Women heavy weight (no maximum weight) Karate.

I only wish companions had such excellent depth and development that it all would connect at some point in the game - if I could compare it to any book, then pilgrims from Hyperion (yes, I know it's SF).

Well again we go here all above is your subjective taste and not mine. Forgotten realms have many great books. Problem is also that nowadays I really do not read books or if do then very rarely instead I see movies and TV series.

If talking about classic none Forgotten Realms fantasy well that would be for me Tolkien books or Conan The Barbarian.

Well as for how is the story in my opinion in this game? I will answer that when I have played it considerably and still downloading it very slowly from gog.com bought it yesterday late evening.

I have not read almost any scifi books. I have seen the XBOX Halo movie that is rated fairly well on IMDB and it was ok. Starwars is of course a classic franchise though in my opinion they have made so many movies of it now so there is nothing special about it anymore.

I have seen lots of SCIFI TV series though... but usually I like more realistic scifi like The Last Ship
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2402207/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1
Action, Drama, SCIFI
which is very much Action based TV series and USA army lended film makers a real USA military ship. Fairly realistic.

Bladerunner movies and Cyberpunk 2077 SCIFI is fine with me.

Well an update I have now managed to install Baldurs Gate 3 both on my Gaming laptop and Gaming Desktop bought through gog.com

Here are some things noticed so far:
Positive:
A. Graphics, music and sound are nice.
B. Intro how it starts video I rank 5/5 stars.
C. Character creation I like it well ok you can not adjust everything example not adjust boobs size
on women but good enough character creation. Of course more classes, races and Cleric Domains
are welcome.
Neutral:
C. My gaming laptop runs a bit warm but does work.
D. The install to get it work had to uninstall all old Nvidia drivers then I took with Geforce Experinced
and installed newest Nvidia driver... with old driver experienced one chrash but with newest drivers no crash so far.
E. I took Aurora engine instead of Direct X 11.
Slightly negative:
No HOW to tutorial in game. You have to figure it out or be used to such or search in google. I remember Neverwinter Nights ... they had a tutorial that anyone should understand very easily.
I do not need tutorial for Dungeons Dragons rules.
F. Controls feel a bit unnatural currently but I am sure this last part gets better in time.
G. The so called crossover saves with gog.com does not work. If I save with my gaming laptop can not access that with Gaming desktop that save file etc.

No bugs encountered unless you count system crash but that was with very old Nvidia drivers. No problems after newest Nvidia drivers.

Here are my specs that I play with in little bit more detail:
Gaming desktop bought parts year 2018 on different discounts times like Black Friday and
other discount events.
AMD Ryzen 5 2600X Processor in TURBO mode 4.2 Ghz
Socket-AM4, 6-Cores, 12-Threads,
Nvidia 1700 Ti 8GB DDR5
RAM 16 GB to be more exact:
G.Skill Ripjaws V DDR4 16GB KIT 3200Mhz
2x8GB, PC25600/3200Mhz, 16GVBK, CL 16
SSD: 500 GB
Separately have none SSD hardrives.
OS: Windows 10

Gaming laptop bought on Black Friday considerable discount November 2018:
MSI GP63 8RE-651NE I5/8/1128/1060
CPU is Intel I5 4 cores 8 threads Processor Base Frequency
2.30 GHz
Max Turbo Frequency
I dont know but more then 3Ghz
Nvidia GeForce® GTX 1060 with 6GB DDR5
8 GB RAM
SSD is to small for games...
Game installed under 1 TERA harddrive.
OS: Windows 10

I have not really noticed performance differences with these but I run with max settings 1080p (FULL HD) resolution my monitors support that resolution. In addition have not played so far yet only in very early beginning so no huge fight experience.

Ok now I have finished PROLOGUE part of Act1 it took more then one hour for me...
It would be much faster a second time... learned a bit gameplay and other things.
I definitely like the SEXY appeal in the game...
Even though my main character is male the game says create also of opposite sex a character that you dream of well so you do that.
That is not all without spoilers hmm some mildly sexy views already in prologue.
Prologue is also enough well say Epic...

I too want the game to be overly long, boring, and written in iambic pentametre.

GRRM is not a great writer in my opinion. Ive read his cycle and it just didnt realy jump out to me.
Its not fantasy its historical fiction withut the part where you can open up wikipedia to get spoilers.

Of course theres fantasy elements but the parts wehre those come up are essentialy the weakest parts of the narrative.

ive recently come to change my mind on fantasy and came full circle admitting that tolkien was right about fantasy.

Fantasy should feel like mythology, especialy like Heroic sagas, with specific themes, allegories and exagrations.

Naturally DnD doesnt do this due to its random nature, beeing much closer to... well to real life in the sense that theres no given out come for anything.
Video games CAN emulate this, ,the question is wehter or not they ought to.

DnD based novels are, if anything, retellings of stories. Lodoss war comes to midn. Thats where you can go into the proper fantasy part. The retelling, the exagration, the part where you insert random songs into the narrative.

With DnD video games youre essentialy asking the question: should you be telling the story, or should you let playerrs enact the story taht is beeing told?
Who is in the right and in the wrong, who is the big damn hero? thsoe questions are to be answered after the action happened.
I think insofar, BG3 works in that it has deliberatley chosen the echew the forrmer and embraced the latter.

This of course makes it look less "epic", but think about recent fantasy, what realy is epic? Witcher? i disagree.
The last fantasy game that even tried that would be Skyrim, and thats almost 10 years old.

Well ok looks you are Elder Scrolls fan. There exist them and even Elder Scrolls MMO nowadays you can play them.

The last thing I would like to turn this game is some huge kind of Sandbox like Elder Scrolls. Oh and I really bought Skyrim when you could get it for less then 10 euro. I have not liked any Elder Scrolls game. I am not Witcher fan either though Witcher is great in that way that they have lots of nudity, great graphics and fairly ok combat.

What I want is something like Baldurs Gate 1... you have main story... there are side quests of course. However it is not some huge Sandbox (except in that sense that many classes and races to choose from) the quests are clear.

Both are gems. BG2 is a better game and P:T has better writing and art.

i fail to comprehend what this post is about.

I was refering to the way a story is told.
it has nothing to do with gameplay.

Fantasy novel style (if done properly) is like a Nordic Saga or the Odyssey, its a heroic story with themes defined and characters that are in many ways mythic archetypes (this is done less and less and its why fantasy novels dteriorate, the fantasy genre doesnt work well for quasi historical fiction as its too easy to handwave almost anyhting, fantasy works well for those kinds of narrative in literature)

a video game has many more options. It CAN lead itself to that kind of narrative, but BG3 is not that. BG3 discribes more the "Basis" for a Legend.
The thing that happens in universe, themes, charactterizations, mythic archetypes and so on would be drawn after the actual action has happened.

Simmilar to, as i said, a DnD campaign.

I don’t think this is as cut & dry. BG2 and P:T have different objective with their writing - P:T has definitely more depth and finesse but it would be detrimental to BG2 if applied there. BGs are very bioware, black&white pulpy adventures, while P:T does something more thoughtful.

I think we can see the effect of merging the two in Pillars Of Eternity series - which tried to pay a homage to IE as a whole structure and adventure of BGs, combat of IWDs and reflective, subversive storytelling of Planescape. While I love the series, those three games combined into one clash rather hard at times.

I played whole Pillars of Eternity 1 through and liked it but hated that it was not Dungeons Dragons..

As for PIllars of Eternity 2 at some point I got tired on it to much sandbox huge world and not Dungeons Dragons rule set...

Divinity Originals Sin 2? Well not fun of that but do not hate that game.

I mainly like this game due to Dungeons Dragons... and as for story feels fairly ok but story is not enough for me combat must be good (it is good) and game should be more stable less crash specially if I set max graphics.

Game is still buggy and not stable but this is ALPHA...

Well as for story they could improve it buy offering some GOOD alignment companions but perhaps we can find such in Act 2... current companions are all Evil or Neutral alignment... I dont hate them saved the Gityanki woman she look attractive as well as Shadowheart does...

Here is WHY I personally accept Lae'zel as party member despite Evil alignment more or less:
A. Gityanki was in hands of cruel slave masters the Mindflayers.. but in time got more resilient to their mindpowers and rose up in revolt..
B: In order to win against so powerful foes as Mindflayers Gityanki sought allies and they sent one member to Tiamant the very Evil Dragon deity... the member never returned (likely eaten by Dragon deity) but none the less Tiamant did so that Red Dragons did none aggression treaty with Gityanki and top of that even some Red Dragons agreed to help in the war against the Mind Flayers...
C. The majority of Gityanki either worship Tiamant or some other Evil deity...
D. Growing up in a cruel world the Gityanki themselves physically are strong (they get STR bonus) and they despise weakness and see weaker races as places to plunder much like the Vikings (my ancestors) did.
E. Gityanki could not care less about leftist politics equal equal equal but I share their view in real life I do not give a shit about leftist movement in politics.
F. Lae zel does not have high Charisma and comes like a bit action brute, but her class is Fighter and I respect her.
G. Any debate Lae zel vs Shadowheart in beauty I will not get into and I am neutral to that debate and personally I think both are very beautiful as women.

It’s hard to feel a novel like experience when in every fight the whole party ist super Mario jumping around out of gravity or logic and eating apples during a swordfight to recover from wounds.

Lets not forget the tactics.. get a bit old... oh there is that room wait there is oil barrel I put fire on that...
or what now I shoot there it explodes or shoot that thing there it falls down... oh my I am so good at this game lol...

In addition I have a Light Domain Cleric (my favorite domain from PHB not yet included) but found out that apples and bread quite make healing spells a bit less needed.

However to make a fair point.
Baldurs Gate 1 and 2 used Advanced Dungeons Dragons edition ruleset that has better healing spells.

They have nerfed Cleric to kingdom come in DD 5th edition and healing works less effectively in Dungeons Dragons 5th Edition then previous versions specially if compare to Dungeons Dragons 3.5 that Cleric was one of the most powerful classes. Now in DD5th edition it is a bit effort to make even a fairly ok Cleric that is useful to the party.

Well so in respect to that my healing is inferior despite having good Wisdom score as Cleric... I can use the extra help of food to heal...

In addition that apple will not heal as much in combat like a say higher level healing spell.

My favorite domain is not yet included from Players Handbook but I can also tell that my role (or what I want to do) in party as Cleric is not taking Life Domain and be a pure healing character.

Playing BG3 should feel like you're taking an ocean cruise only there's no boat and you don't actually go anywhere.

That's Raft

I think people like consistency.
BG3 Act 1 alone is a collection of the most dangerous places and monsters of the world.
People can fill books and whole games into some of the locations BG3 consumes every minute.

I’m sitting here chuckling wildly to myself at work like a massive buffoon.

The same

This is so true.

Hmmmm...

Playing BG3 should feel like playing Baldur's Gate. So sayeth the wise Alaundo.

It makes the world feel tiny, and shallow.

I concur but I get the feeling it is something of a minority that feels this way. A cursory glance through some other forums dedicated to this game are awash with gushing reviews of the romances, story and characters.

To get back to the feel of the game, I feel it could use a dose of the mantra "less is more" but my understanding is that it is really not Larian's style to do so; everything is cranked up to the max in the name of 'fun', whether it be companion backstories, the humour, the combat, etc.

The world seeming tiny is not really helped by the theme park feel to the map, there are no truly open expanses to explore and fundamentally it is a series of pathways leading you from one encounter to the next. Inevitably this diminishes somewhat the sensation of undertaking an epic journey because everything feels so cramped and close.