Larian Studios
Posted By: Evil_it_Self RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 10/11/20 10:24 PM
hoping for a patch every 2 week was to much to expect I guess. smile

[Linked Image]
Posted By: Tzelanit Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 10/11/20 10:26 PM
Pretty sure that passive-aggressive whining for the sake of starting pointless arguments by applying presumptuous pressure to large companies isn't the way to get positive results, but you keep on truckin' along, lil guy.
Posted By: Stabbey Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 10/11/20 10:40 PM
I don't remember Larian promising a patch every two weeks.
Posted By: Rhobar121 Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 10/11/20 10:45 PM
Originally Posted by Stabbey
I don't remember Larian promising a patch every two weeks.


You don't remember? This was at the same time they promised the RTwP mode smile
Posted By: Evil_it_Self Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 10/11/20 10:53 PM
Originally Posted by Stabbey
I don't remember Larian promising a patch every two weeks.



Originally Posted by Evil_it_Self
hoping.....expect...

Posted By: Bukke Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 10/11/20 10:54 PM
what did he mean by this
Posted By: Nyanko Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 10/11/20 10:58 PM
Honestly, I would rather count on a consistent monthly patch along with a few hotfixes at this point. That's what we had in DOS 2 if I remember correctly. And they must be following the same iterative routines.
Posted By: gaymer Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 10/11/20 11:10 PM
Hope the next patch has at least 1 new class.
Posted By: Verte Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 10/11/20 11:16 PM
Originally Posted by Bukke
what did he mean by this

Originally Posted by Evil_it_Self

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Posted By: Gaidax Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 10/11/20 11:24 PM
I'd just prefer they would put some sort of "what's next" column in their next newsletter. It would be nice to know what they intend to introduce immediately next as far as new content goes, I imagine they at least have a plan for that one - as in which class/feat/specialization or companion (as teaser) we can expect next content update.

It would be also super awesome if they'd go full POG and offer community a choice between several classes to work on next, like some sort of secure poll offering a choice between let's say - Sorcerer, Bard and Druid and let people vote for which should be given priority for EA.
Posted By: Soul-Scar Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 10/11/20 11:36 PM
A patch? Would be happy with a bullet point at this point.
Posted By: N7Greenfire Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 11/11/20 12:35 AM
Guys I'm thirsty for content too but no reason to get dickish about it
Posted By: Tuco Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 11/11/20 03:42 AM
I have to admit I expected a patch too.
All the signs aligned: the last patch was exactly two weeks before, it was a Tuesday as well and more importantly SteamDB was signaling a lot of activity updating a build called "patch3" in the game's repository.

All circumstantial hints that amount to exactly zero hard evidence.
And in fact it turned out to be an unjustified expectation.

Originally Posted by N7Greenfire
Guys I'm thirsty for content too but no reason to get dickish about it


I'm not exactly the greatest fan of the OP's post history, but to be fair he was just being silly. The only people being "dickish" here are the ones replying with gratuitous passive-aggressive cattiness as if someone was questioning their mother's dignity.
Posted By: Sadurian Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 11/11/20 05:48 AM
Keep it pleasant, chaps.
Posted By: yellowsapphire88 Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 11/11/20 10:09 AM
If I were Larian, I wouldn't have wanted to release a patch on the same day as the Xbox Series X and Assassin's Creed Valhalla launches...

We know a patch's coming, it'll come when it's ready.
Posted By: Vhaldez Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 11/11/20 10:29 AM
[Linked Image]
Posted By: Tuco Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 11/11/20 10:43 AM
Originally Posted by Vhaldez
[Linked Image]

Don't read too much into it, since it got regular updates every N hours for the last 4-5 days, since Friday,

It's coming sooner rather than later, but nothing guarantees us it's coming in a particularly short timeframe.
Posted By: Martinoso Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 11/11/20 10:51 AM
Game is not as good as I expected. But speed of updating and adding new content is even worst! How many peoples works on this game? They should be able to deliver new content in 2 weeks. Every 2 weeks. They sell as unfinished product for full price. So we have right to hurry them up hehe
Posted By: Bukke Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 11/11/20 11:14 AM
Originally Posted by Martinoso
Game is not as good as I expected. But speed of updating and adding new content is even worst! How many peoples works on this game? They should be able to deliver new content in 2 weeks. Every 2 weeks. They sell as unfinished product for full price. So we have right to hurry them up hehe

Profoundly uninsightful comment.
Posted By: yellowsapphire88 Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 11/11/20 11:37 AM
Originally Posted by Martinoso
Game is not as good as I expected. But speed of updating and adding new content is even worst! How many peoples works on this game? They should be able to deliver new content in 2 weeks. Every 2 weeks. They sell as unfinished product for full price. So we have right to hurry them up hehe


Hmmm, nah. Absolutely not.

We know a patch is on its way, Larian has made no promises as to the exact cadence, and that's a good thing. It may be as simple as not wanting to clash with everything else going on earlier this week, or it may be that the patch isn't quite ready yet due to wanting to add something else that's ready, or finding an issue just before release that needs to be fixed. Flexibility is good.
Posted By: Abits Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 11/11/20 12:26 PM
That's it I'm out 0/10
#why_Larian
#childhood_ruined
Posted By: Asseronia Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 11/11/20 12:32 PM
Sometimes I really disappointed by people (or trolls?) complaining about updates frown Larian was super clear about what EA is, and why you should wait if you want a polished product.
The game is huge and I expect that EA will be for 1,5 year (but again - this is only a guess) - and during that time I believe that we could expect 3 or 4 patches related to changes to the game.
So it would be like a patch every 3 - 4 months - and in my eyes, it seems realistic and healthy. We could iterate on bigger changes than small fixes.
Posted By: Verte Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 11/11/20 12:42 PM
Originally Posted by Asseronia
Sometimes I really disappointed by people (or trolls?) complaining about updates frown Larian was super clear about what EA is, and why you should wait if you want a polished product.
The game is huge and I expect that EA will be for 1,5 year (but again - this is only a guess) - and during that time I believe that we could expect 3 or 4 patches related to changes to the game.
So it would be like a patch every 3 - 4 months - and in my eyes, it seems realistic and healthy. We could iterate on bigger changes than small fixes.


And that is resonable. Plus some hotfixes every 1-2 moths, as game is still buggy for many.
Posted By: Uncle Lester Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 11/11/20 12:46 PM
Originally Posted by Asseronia
Sometimes I really disappointed by people (or trolls?) complaining about updates frown Larian was super clear about what EA is, and why you should wait if you want a polished product.
The game is huge and I expect that EA will be for 1,5 year (but again - this is only a guess) - and during that time I believe that we could expect 3 or 4 patches related to changes to the game.
So it would be like a patch every 3 - 4 months - and in my eyes, it seems realistic and healthy. We could iterate on bigger changes than small fixes.


I'd say this is conservative. We know that during EA, "big" stuff will be added: classes, races, companions... and I think some other "major" features were teased. We don't know whether all of classes, for example, are going to be added during EA or when 1.0 ships, but I'd lean towards the former as those things need to be extensively playtested. I think a big patch with new things and/or substantial changes would be reasonable to expect every 2 months or so. Whether it has anything to do with reality remains to be seen...
Posted By: Bukke Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 11/11/20 01:04 PM
Originally Posted by Uncle Lester
Originally Posted by Asseronia
Sometimes I really disappointed by people (or trolls?) complaining about updates frown Larian was super clear about what EA is, and why you should wait if you want a polished product.
The game is huge and I expect that EA will be for 1,5 year (but again - this is only a guess) - and during that time I believe that we could expect 3 or 4 patches related to changes to the game.
So it would be like a patch every 3 - 4 months - and in my eyes, it seems realistic and healthy. We could iterate on bigger changes than small fixes.


I'd say this is conservative. We know that during EA, "big" stuff will be added: classes, races, companions... and I think some other "major" features were teased. We don't know whether all of classes, for example, are going to be added during EA or when 1.0 ships, but I'd lean towards the former as those things need to be extensively playtested. I think a big patch with new things and/or substantial changes would be reasonable to expect every 2 months or so. Whether it has anything to do with reality remains to be seen...

Don't forget that for the entirety of the early access period only the first act of the game will be available.
There's a limited amount of 'new' content that can be added to one secluded part of the game. Many of the major patches that'll get added during the early access period will mostly contain system changes, revamped encounters/dialogue and other similar additions.
Of course they're also add new classes, races and possibly companions during development, but that's mostly for feedback/QA purposes, not just to add them because they are complete. When I read some of the posts about the EA release schedule I have a feeling that some people are under the impression that the entire game is going to be gradually added to the EA version until the entire game magically becomes playable. This is most certainly not how things will unfold.
Posted By: Divine Star Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 11/11/20 01:11 PM
Honestly it's the rapid amount of mods being created that's holding my attention to this game. Sure, it's EA. But it's not being updated as much and at the end of the day I still paid $60.00 for a game that's less developed than I thought. It's my first time buying an Early Access game, so I'm going to be honest and say that I was too hyped by what was promised in the marketing and just went for it. Lesson learned. I was cool with the patches coming out regularly and I'm not going to hold back from saying I'm a bit disappointed that things went quiet for a while. Not sorry if some people's disappointment somehow offends people but we STILL paid the price of a full game for this product.
Posted By: Bukke Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 11/11/20 01:18 PM
Originally Posted by Divine Star
Honestly it's the rapid amount of mods being created that's holding my attention to this game. Sure, it's EA. But it's not being updated as much and at the end of the day I still paid $60.00 for a game that's less developed than I thought. It's my first time buying an Early Access game, so I'm going to be honest and say that I was too hyped by what was promised in the marketing and just went for it. Lesson learned. I was cool with the patches coming out regularly and I'm not going to hold back from saying I'm a bit disappointed that things went quiet for a while. Not sorry if some people's disappointment somehow offends people but we STILL paid the price of a full game for this product.

Sounds like you need to go back and read what early access actually means.
Posted By: Evil_it_Self Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 11/11/20 01:33 PM
Originally Posted by Bukke
Originally Posted by Divine Star
Honestly it's the rapid amount of mods being created that's holding my attention to this game. Sure, it's EA. But it's not being updated as much and at the end of the day I still paid $60.00 for a game that's less developed than I thought. It's my first time buying an Early Access game, so I'm going to be honest and say that I was too hyped by what was promised in the marketing and just went for it. Lesson learned. I was cool with the patches coming out regularly and I'm not going to hold back from saying I'm a bit disappointed that things went quiet for a while. Not sorry if some people's disappointment somehow offends people but we STILL paid the price of a full game for this product.

Sounds like you need to go back and read what early access actually means.



there is realy a lot of ways to do a EA game, see satisfactory , they release patch every year or so, see industry of titan , they release patch with content every 2 weeks,

see game like factorio or oxygen not included where the community was truly involved and shaped the game and content all the way to version 1.0 all the content was added in the game during EA.

see game like solasta, where the dev just promised MORE content (quest, map, etc.)


the way Larian doing it , imo, is the wrong way(I own about 50 EA games. I know what am talking about.), it does not feel like a EA, but more like a BETA test. locking the content like that ? like .... we take feedback seriously but.... ONLY for act 1 we going to do act 2 and act 3 and you have NOTHING to say in the matter.you not gonna shape it or change it in anyway. ...... do you see my point ?

am kinda happy I was able to play bg3 for 140 hours, until I was totally bored of it. but according to steam data base the average playtime is 8 hours (per 2 weeks).

I did my part, I summited many feedback directly to larian via the website , and not here on the forum. now I have to wait for more "content", if it does not come and fast, I wil just uninstall and forget about BG3 and that is sad, I was hoping to get involved with the development of Baldur's gate 3 but , its not the case. the dev don't want to get involved with us. they colect thier "data" and will change some stuff here and there.

what is the point of testing a new added class, if I can't lvl up to lv 5?
lv 5 is a game changer for almost every class. it will totally WACK the Balance of ACT1, I would allow the player to test it, unless .... even in the 1.0 version act one will be lvl lock ..... that would be ... stupid.
Posted By: Bukke Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 11/11/20 01:43 PM
Citing that you are a spendthrift does not in any way mean you know what you're talking about, nor does it lend any merit to what you say.
Posted By: gaymer Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 11/11/20 02:08 PM
Originally Posted by Divine Star
Honestly it's the rapid amount of mods being created that's holding my attention to this game. Sure, it's EA. But it's not being updated as much and at the end of the day I still paid $60.00 for a game that's less developed than I thought. It's my first time buying an Early Access game, so I'm going to be honest and say that I was too hyped by what was promised in the marketing and just went for it. Lesson learned. I was cool with the patches coming out regularly and I'm not going to hold back from saying I'm a bit disappointed that things went quiet for a while. Not sorry if some people's disappointment somehow offends people but we STILL paid the price of a full game for this product.


Yeah, is clear the game was in much worse state. Imagine if they had kept with the August 30th first deadline.

The game was barely stable when it was released, which I question their motive to even release EA that early. You could have waited until Q1 2021 or at the end of this year.
Posted By: Uncle Lester Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 11/11/20 04:49 PM
Originally Posted by Bukke
Originally Posted by Uncle Lester
Originally Posted by Asseronia
Sometimes I really disappointed by people (or trolls?) complaining about updates frown Larian was super clear about what EA is, and why you should wait if you want a polished product.
The game is huge and I expect that EA will be for 1,5 year (but again - this is only a guess) - and during that time I believe that we could expect 3 or 4 patches related to changes to the game.
So it would be like a patch every 3 - 4 months - and in my eyes, it seems realistic and healthy. We could iterate on bigger changes than small fixes.


I'd say this is conservative. We know that during EA, "big" stuff will be added: classes, races, companions... and I think some other "major" features were teased. We don't know whether all of classes, for example, are going to be added during EA or when 1.0 ships, but I'd lean towards the former as those things need to be extensively playtested. I think a big patch with new things and/or substantial changes would be reasonable to expect every 2 months or so. Whether it has anything to do with reality remains to be seen...

Don't forget that for the entirety of the early access period only the first act of the game will be available.
There's a limited amount of 'new' content that can be added to one secluded part of the game. Many of the major patches that'll get added during the early access period will mostly contain system changes, revamped encounters/dialogue and other similar additions.
Of course they're also add new classes, races and possibly companions during development, but that's mostly for feedback/QA purposes, not just to add them because they are complete. When I read some of the posts about the EA release schedule I have a feeling that some people are under the impression that the entire game is going to be gradually added to the EA version until the entire game magically becomes playable. This is most certainly not how things will unfold.


Yeah, that's what I meant. Mechanics/systems, player options, iterations of currently existing things. I'm certainly not expecting more story content or new areas. (Well, technically companions are more story.)
Posted By: Divine Star Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 11/11/20 05:27 PM
Originally Posted by Bukke
Originally Posted by Divine Star
Honestly it's the rapid amount of mods being created that's holding my attention to this game. Sure, it's EA. But it's not being updated as much and at the end of the day I still paid $60.00 for a game that's less developed than I thought. It's my first time buying an Early Access game, so I'm going to be honest and say that I was too hyped by what was promised in the marketing and just went for it. Lesson learned. I was cool with the patches coming out regularly and I'm not going to hold back from saying I'm a bit disappointed that things went quiet for a while. Not sorry if some people's disappointment somehow offends people but we STILL paid the price of a full game for this product.

Sounds like you need to go back and read what early access actually means.



Sounds like you need to get a life and stop being a keyboard warrior who doesn't understand what an 'opinion' or 'impression' is. Go look it up.
Posted By: Divine Star Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 11/11/20 05:29 PM
Originally Posted by gaymer
Originally Posted by Divine Star
Honestly it's the rapid amount of mods being created that's holding my attention to this game. Sure, it's EA. But it's not being updated as much and at the end of the day I still paid $60.00 for a game that's less developed than I thought. It's my first time buying an Early Access game, so I'm going to be honest and say that I was too hyped by what was promised in the marketing and just went for it. Lesson learned. I was cool with the patches coming out regularly and I'm not going to hold back from saying I'm a bit disappointed that things went quiet for a while. Not sorry if some people's disappointment somehow offends people but we STILL paid the price of a full game for this product.


Yeah, is clear the game was in much worse state. Imagine if they had kept with the August 30th first deadline.

The game was barely stable when it was released, which I question their motive to even release EA that early. You could have waited until Q1 2021 or at the end of this year.


With the bugs and glitches it feels a lot like a beta test more than anything. It's essentially a Beta that they're getting paid for. Don't get me wrong, the game was super fun, but I wasn't expecting just how bad off it was for a game they thought would be stable enough to charge people for it.
Posted By: N7Greenfire Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 11/11/20 06:29 PM
Originally Posted by Divine Star
Originally Posted by gaymer
Originally Posted by Divine Star
Honestly it's the rapid amount of mods being created that's holding my attention to this game. Sure, it's EA. But it's not being updated as much and at the end of the day I still paid $60.00 for a game that's less developed than I thought. It's my first time buying an Early Access game, so I'm going to be honest and say that I was too hyped by what was promised in the marketing and just went for it. Lesson learned. I was cool with the patches coming out regularly and I'm not going to hold back from saying I'm a bit disappointed that things went quiet for a while. Not sorry if some people's disappointment somehow offends people but we STILL paid the price of a full game for this product.


Yeah, is clear the game was in much worse state. Imagine if they had kept with the August 30th first deadline.

The game was barely stable when it was released, which I question their motive to even release EA that early. You could have waited until Q1 2021 or at the end of this year.


With the bugs and glitches it feels a lot like a beta test more than anything. It's essentially a Beta that they're getting paid for. Don't get me wrong, the game was super fun, but I wasn't expecting just how bad off it was for a game they thought would be stable enough to charge people for it.

Thats... That's what early access is.
Posted By: Sadurian Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 11/11/20 06:42 PM
Originally Posted by Divine Star
Originally Posted by Bukke
Sounds like you need to go back and read what early access actually means.


Sounds like you need to get a life and stop being a keyboard warrior who doesn't understand what an 'opinion' or 'impression' is. Go look it up.

Please just back away from using a confrontational tone or getting involved in bad-tempered arguments. Stop and read what you post before hitting the return button, and ask yourself if you would be happy being spoken to in that way. If not, don't make it public.

If someone slings insults or 'fighting talk' at you (and it's likely to happen to everyone eventually), hit the "Report" button. Then be the bigger person and do not respond in the same tone. The danger of getting involved in a "Tit-for-tat" exchange is that you will both/all be tarred with the same brush.
Posted By: Imora DalSyn Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 11/11/20 07:24 PM
So their mother was a hamster, and their father smelt of elderberries?
Posted By: Divine Star Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 11/11/20 07:34 PM
Originally Posted by Sadurian
Originally Posted by Divine Star
Originally Posted by Bukke
Sounds like you need to go back and read what early access actually means.


Sounds like you need to get a life and stop being a keyboard warrior who doesn't understand what an 'opinion' or 'impression' is. Go look it up.

Please just back away from using a confrontational tone or getting involved in bad-tempered arguments. Stop and read what you post before hitting the return button, and ask yourself if you would be happy being spoken to in that way. If not, don't make it public.

If someone slings insults or 'fighting talk' at you (and it's likely to happen to everyone eventually), hit the "Report" button. Then be the bigger person and do not respond in the same tone. The danger of getting involved in a "Tit-for-tat" exchange is that you will both/all be tarred with the same brush.


So I'm guessing you completely bypassed the tone everyone else was using on every single post here where people were commenting their own opinions, and when I retaliated against one of the rude individuals that commented on every opposing opinion, you picked mine, of all the posts here, to reprimand. Nice selectivity. I'm done with this forum.
Posted By: flick40 Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 11/11/20 07:38 PM
You can tell the real play testers vs those who just wanted to play
Posted By: Sadurian Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 11/11/20 08:28 PM
Originally Posted by Divine Star
So I'm guessing you completely bypassed the tone everyone else was using on every single post here where people were commenting their own opinions, and when I retaliated against one of the rude individuals that commented on every opposing opinion, you picked mine, of all the posts here, to reprimand. Nice selectivity. I'm done with this forum.

It was a general comment to all those in the thread. Yours just happened to be the latest in the exchange.
Posted By: mfr Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 11/11/20 08:41 PM
For your collective information, I've just started a new character, Drow, you've got to laugh! Incidents around the Druids' Grove suggest there has been a stealth update.
Posted By: Tarlonniel Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 11/11/20 08:45 PM
A stealth update? How? Steam would show any downloads queued or completed.
Posted By: N7Greenfire Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 11/11/20 08:59 PM
Originally Posted by mfr
For your collective information, I've just started a new character, Drow, you've got to laugh! Incidents around the Druids' Grove suggest there has been a stealth update.

Such as?
Posted By: Vhaldez Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 11/11/20 09:00 PM
Originally Posted by N7Greenfire
Originally Posted by mfr
For your collective information, I've just started a new character, Drow, you've got to laugh! Incidents around the Druids' Grove suggest there has been a stealth update.

Such as?
He's experiencing hallucinative denial, the poor soul...
Posted By: Tuco Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 11/11/20 09:41 PM
Originally Posted by Tarlonniel
A stealth update? How? Steam would show any downloads queued or completed.


Yeah, that didn't happen.
Posted By: Anfindel Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 11/11/20 10:14 PM
Early Access = Beta Test. Period. You get to test various aspects of the game, while the company collects data, listens to feedback (not necessarily responding to feedback) and ultimately makes whatever changes it deems necessary in reaching a final product.

Unfortunately, some folk seem to ignore the language Larian used to describe the EA, and decided that Early Access means advanced access to a finished product.

My best guess (and it is certainly just a guess) is we MAY see an update/patch somewhere in December, as a sort of holiday gift to Early Access folk, and to keep us busy during the holiday vacation season.
Posted By: KillerRabbit Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 11/11/20 10:23 PM
I'm taking the lack of a weekly patch as confirmation that moonrise towers will be included next time.
Posted By: Nyanko Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 11/11/20 10:25 PM
Originally Posted by Anfindel
Early Access = Beta Test. Period. You get to test various aspects of the game, while the company collects data, listens to feedback (not necessarily responding to feedback) and ultimately makes whatever changes it deems necessary in reaching a final product.

Unfortunately, some folk seem to ignore the language Larian used to describe the EA, and decided that Early Access means advanced access to a finished product.

My best guess (and it is certainly just a guess) is we MAY see an update/patch somewhere in December, as a sort of holiday gift to Early Access folk, and to keep us busy during the holiday vacation season.


Yeah, it must be true for some people. Personally, I am trying my best to break all their rules and I do hope they will get my data. Because the cheese is so intense in some situations, like sniping the hag without even entering combat or killing minotaurs one at a time with a solo wizard, that they really need to fix some stuff.
Posted By: Verte Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 11/11/20 10:31 PM
Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
I'm taking the lack of a weekly patch as confirmation that moonrise towers will be included next time.


I'm having too much fun with all the speculations and datamining.
Posted By: KillerRabbit Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 11/11/20 11:13 PM
Having fun with that as well. Which is why the need to put in moonrise towers so the dataminers can focus on act 2 wink
Posted By: Nicottia Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 11/11/20 11:25 PM
Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
Having fun with that as well. Which is why the need to put in moonrise towers so the dataminers can focus on act 2 wink


Is there even act 2 (or some sort of skeleton of act 2) to datamine? I thought access to act 1 stuff was the main reason behind the ''very small'' size of the game? So far we got stripped down 80GB out of advertised 150GB version of the game. wink
Posted By: KillerRabbit Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 11/11/20 11:35 PM
Just a bit we know where act two and three take place, the maps for act two. As I understand it's not clear if spoiler character is in 1B or 2.
Posted By: Tarlonniel Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 11/11/20 11:36 PM
Moonrise Towers plus the two other routes to Moonrise Towers, at least one of which will be important for at least one of our companions (Lae'zel). So far I haven't seen much datamined stuff on those other two routes.
Posted By: Waltc Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 12/11/20 01:19 AM
Being honest, at this stage of the game, a patch a week of some kind doesn't seem terribly beyond the ability of Larian--not at all...;) The current game is really, really raw--I mean, alpha raw, not beta raw, yet. When I bought the game in EA I knew it would be rough--and really don't mind it, as such, but then I thought that instead of one huge patch every 2-3 weeks we'd be looking at one smaller patch each week, on average, the cumulative total of three patches in three weeks roughly matching the current *huge* patch. It's now been--two weeks?--since the latest huge patch. The smaller patches--not hotfixes--but patches more specialized, etc., would go a long way to making the EA a lot more palatable. Et Tu, Brutus?...;)

I really, really want to keep playing--but I also really, really want some tangible improvement along with my raw gaming...;) I think the game will be great--certainly a contender for the Game of the Decade--but the EA isn't going to win any prizes currently. A smaller patch weekly would be something to look forward to each week to keep the EA enthusiasm going. Just my two cents, but it would be nice maybe if Sven would consider something like this as a way of accelerating the process a bit without these interminable waits in between patches.

I'm one of these weird people who actually enjoys starting over with subsequent patches and I'm usually glad to do so...;) Jus geeve a'me der patch'eh man! Yo' he'ah? Or my name isn't Zorro!

Z
Posted By: Horrorscope Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 12/11/20 01:29 AM
Has it been stated that we'll get meaningful content added for EA?
Posted By: Tuco Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 12/11/20 02:55 AM
Originally Posted by Horrorscope
Has it been stated that we'll get meaningful content added for EA?

Depends on how do you define "meaningful".
We are not getting new parts of the story, but we are supposed to get races, classes, mechanical improvements, etc. Maybe even one extra level up at some point, who knows.
Posted By: Firesnakearies Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 12/11/20 05:09 AM
When they said that Early Access was going to last for "over a year", I took that to mean "at least 18 months probably". And knowing that the Early Access period is THAT long, I came into it expecting slow development, very long stretches between updates, and a need for patience.

We didn't pay $60 (or whatever you paid) for the Early Access client. We paid for the eventual finished game. That's the product they sold us. By paying for it WAY in advance, we also get access to this unfinished preview build, that we can play around with and give feedback on. But the unfinished game is not the actual product we bought. They don't owe us ANY Early Access updates. They only owe us the finished game.

So let's have some patience.
Posted By: Bukke Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 12/11/20 06:33 AM
Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
When they said that Early Access was going to last for "over a year", I took that to mean "at least 18 months probably". And knowing that the Early Access period is THAT long, I came into it expecting slow development, very long stretches between updates, and a need for patience.

We didn't pay $60 (or whatever you paid) for the Early Access client. We paid for the eventual finished game. That's the product they sold us. By paying for it WAY in advance, we also get access to this unfinished preview build, that we can play around with and give feedback on. But the unfinished game is not the actual product we bought. They don't owe us ANY Early Access updates. They only owe us the finished game.

So let's have some patience.

I can't +1 this enough. I really can't understand the people who are complaining about paying 'for' early access when they've bought the actual game.
It's close to the equivalent of ordering a car directly from a car factory and going to the said factory and demanding you can take it for a ride. Of course the car won't be as capable of driving as a fully finished car.

When it comes to the length of the early access period our most reliable reference is Larian's previous game, DOS2, which was in early access for one year before it came out. I wouldn't expect anything less for BG3 either.
Posted By: KillerRabbit Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 12/11/20 06:39 AM
I read most of the posts as playful. It clearly started as trolling post but people used to say they are eager to play again.
Posted By: Bukke Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 12/11/20 06:44 AM
Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
I read most of the posts as playful. It clearly started as trolling post but people used to say they are eager to play again.

I'm not exclusively referring to the posts on this forum.
Some of the other posts I've seen on random other sites as well as the Steam forums seem to be made by people who are genuinely furious that they weren't given a fully completed game in spite of the plethora of early access notices on the game's store page.
Posted By: KillerRabbit Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 12/11/20 06:46 AM
Oh yeah. You are brave to look at the steam forums. smile I think of them as troll proving grounds.
Posted By: Evandir Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 12/11/20 06:51 AM
The way I see it, the more time in between each patch will lead to better progression. They get to do add a lot more into the patch, test it, stabilize it, release it, and then they can hotfix anything that the patch may have broken. Then they can move on to the next patch.

If they release patches faster, they may introduce more bugs, as they aren't taking the time to internally test it. Then they have to chase down those bugs, instead of working on the next patch.

It's a marathon not a race.
Posted By: Uncle Lester Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 12/11/20 10:22 AM
Originally Posted by Evandir
The way I see it, the more time in between each patch will lead to better progression. They get to do add a lot more into the patch, test it, stabilize it, release it, and then they can hotfix anything that the patch may have broken. Then they can move on to the next patch.

If they release patches faster, they may introduce more bugs, as they aren't taking the time to internally test it. Then they have to chase down those bugs, instead of working on the next patch.

It's a marathon not a race.


I very much agree on the marathon part and that they shouldn't carelessly rush anything, but imo it's better to release smaller patches more frequently. That way you can immediately track what is causing problems in a given build, while if you make a huge patch with a new race, a new companion, a new class and a bunch of changes to mechanics (for an extreme example), it's going to be hell to track what is causing what problem and what impact on the game each element has.

I think a patch per major change + some bugfixes and then several hotfixes until the next big patch would be reasonable.
Posted By: FatePeddler Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 12/11/20 11:35 AM
Originally Posted by Stabbey
I don't remember Larian promising a patch every two weeks.


^this.

I don't mind when the patches come out smile. I hope they can fix Ethel soon, and I hope we get Chapter 2 soon laugh!

In the meantime I'm keeping busy with games I already own <3.
Posted By: Thrandarian Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 12/11/20 11:44 AM
There is no incentive to push patches at this point. The amount of $ profit on this game is already through the roof. This game is on the back burner and resources have been put on something new for the future.
As long as peeps support these kind of products, it's just the way things roll in the gaming industry.

There is no reason to keep 1+ million paying peeps happy, Larian already got paid.
And you think they are going to get another 1+ million sales at release, or even close to that? in 18 months to 2 years down the road? doubtful.

By time this game is released, if it gets released...in 2 years or so...this game will be long forgotten and passed up by something better.

Nope, this is the model for the gaming industry.

Hype, get funding, throw out a, Alpha/Beta, get the $, and off to the next project.

Why, because people make it an acceptable business model.
Posted By: Tequilaman Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 12/11/20 12:05 PM
I have yet to see a proper patch since launch date.

They mostly fixed performance/visual bugs so far, absolutely nothing on D&D mechanics, which to me shows they don't care about making this a D&D game, but rather DOS3 with some D&D elements.

So yeah, you can tell by the last patches the direction they are taking. Which is No Direction.

But I guess they already have my 60 dollars, oh well.

Posted By: Riandor Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 12/11/20 12:06 PM
Originally Posted by Thrandarian
There is no incentive to push patches at this point. The amount of $ profit on this game is already through the roof. This game is on the back burner and resources have been put on something new for the future.
As long as peeps support these kind of products, it's just the way things roll in the gaming industry.

There is no reason to keep 1+ million paying peeps happy, Larian already got paid.
And you think they are going to get another 1+ million sales at release, or even close to that? in 18 months to 2 years down the road? doubtful.

By time this game is released, if it gets released...in 2 years or so...this game will be long forgotten and passed up by something better.

Nope, this is the model for the gaming industry.

Hype, get funding, throw out a, Alpha/Beta, get the $, and off to the next project.

Why, because people make it an acceptable business model.


Insert not sure if serious meme here.

Because otherwise, mohahahahahahahaha.... No.
Posted By: Uncle Lester Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 12/11/20 12:24 PM
Originally Posted by Tequilaman
I have yet to see a proper patch since launch date.

They mostly fixed performance/visual bugs so far, absolutely nothing on D&D mechanics, which to me shows they don't care about making this a D&D game, but rather DOS3 with some D&D elements.

So yeah, you can tell by the last patches the direction they are taking. Which is No Direction.

But I guess they already have my 60 dollars, oh well.


Patience. They have stupid amounts of feedback to go through AND THEN consider. The EA numbers far surpassed what they were expecting. I'd be more worried if they started churning out content patches without much thought behind them.

What I'd appreciate, however, is some kind of official statement in the vein of what The Composer (mod) posted here some time ago: "You've given us heaps of feedback! We appreciate it, but please be patient - we will need time to go through all of it and give it a good thought. Stay tuned!" Or something like that.
Posted By: GloriousZote Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 12/11/20 12:30 PM
Originally Posted by Tequilaman
I have yet to see a proper patch since launch date.

They mostly fixed performance/visual bugs so far, absolutely nothing on D&D mechanics, which to me shows they don't care about making this a D&D game, but rather DOS3 with some D&D elements.

So yeah, you can tell by the last patches the direction they are taking. Which is No Direction.

But I guess they already have my 60 dollars, oh well.


Good thing I bought it on GOG, might get a refund if things go awry.. or nowhere.
Posted By: Vhaldez Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 12/11/20 01:19 PM
[Linked Image]



👀
Posted By: gaymer Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 12/11/20 01:49 PM
Originally Posted by Vhaldez
[Linked Image]



👀


Ok, yes!
Posted By: Flafnir Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 12/11/20 02:16 PM

I find it a bit questionable to patch on Friday. When I think back to the last 2 patches and the bugs that still exist, I don't want to imagine what could go wrong with it.


I would rather be interested in whether Larian is pursuing a patch plan and taking into account all the massive bugs?


I mean, how does it fail that the cube bug appears or the item bug which crashes the game underdark 1hand crossbow. Aunty Ethel endgame dialogues Item Game Crash.

Are they so deep in the programming that you can't get them solved that easily?
Posted By: Nyanko Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 12/11/20 02:23 PM
Originally Posted by Flafnir

I find it a bit questionable to patch on Friday. When I think back to the last 2 patches and the bugs that still exist, I don't want to imagine what could go wrong with it.


I would rather be interested in whether Larian is pursuing a patch plan and taking into account all the massive bugs?


I mean, how does it fail that the cube bug appears or the item bug which crashes the game underdark 1hand crossbow. Aunty Ethel endgame dialogues Item Game Crash.

Are they so deep in the programming that you can't get them solved that easily?



I would understand not pushing a patch a friday if it was a live patch on a released game. But for EA, I don't see why it's a problem at all.
Posted By: Flafnir Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 12/11/20 02:28 PM

Originally Posted by Nyanko
Originally Posted by Flafnir

I find it a bit questionable to patch on Friday. When I think back to the last 2 patches and the bugs that still exist, I don't want to imagine what could go wrong with it.


I would rather be interested in whether Larian is pursuing a patch plan and taking into account all the massive bugs?


I mean, how does it fail that the cube bug appears or the item bug which crashes the game underdark 1hand crossbow. Aunty Ethel endgame dialogues Item Game Crash.

Are they so deep in the programming that you can't get them solved that easily?



I would understand not pushing a patch a friday if it was a live patch on a released game. But for EA, I don't see why it's a problem at all.



Because no one of the developers works on a weekend to fix bugs and the game may not be playable until Monday, i.e. mid-week. Save Game crashs, Ui Crash etc, anything can happen. Like the Auto Save Error game Crash.
Posted By: Tzelanit Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 12/11/20 02:41 PM
This post provides a nice little snapshot of these forums in their current state.
A baitpost meant to sow unrest on the perceived development process, bitter "this isn't Baldur's Gate 3 or 5e, we can't decide which" cheerleaders who only exist to fan flames, and misplaced optimism from aloof fans.
The suggestion forums aren't much better, with half of the posts coming from people who really want their specific sexual kinks and/or malfunctions included in the game to play out their fantasies.
Of course, things are only this way because Larian, much like any other company in this situation, isn't putting out a state of the game address every time they scratch their asses, and people feel entitled to constant updates.

It's been just about 5 weeks since EA release. You all have something like 45-50 more weeks to go. Maybe slow down a little with the exhausting posts where you try to burn everything to the ground out of boredom.
Pace yourselves.
Posted By: GloriousZote Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 12/11/20 02:44 PM
Originally Posted by Tzelanit
This post provides a nice little snapshot of these forums in their current state.
A baitpost meant to sow unrest on the perceived development process, bitter "this isn't Baldur's Gate 3 or 5e, we can't decide which" cheerleaders who only exist to fan flames, and misplaced optimism from aloof fans.
The suggestion forums aren't much better, with half of the posts coming from people who really want their specific sexual kinks and/or malfunctions included in the game to play out their fantasies.
Of course, things are only this way because Larian, much like any other company in this situation, isn't putting out a state of the game address every time they scratch their asses, and people feel entitled to constant updates.

It's been just about 5 weeks since EA release. You all have something like 45-50 more weeks to go. Maybe slow down a little with the exhausting posts where you try to burn everything to the ground out of boredom.
Pace yourselves.

and your reply serves a better purpose?
Posted By: Firesnakearies Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 12/11/20 04:19 PM
Originally Posted by Thrandarian
There is no incentive to push patches at this point. The amount of $ profit on this game is already through the roof. This game is on the back burner and resources have been put on something new for the future.
As long as peeps support these kind of products, it's just the way things roll in the gaming industry.

There is no reason to keep 1+ million paying peeps happy, Larian already got paid.
And you think they are going to get another 1+ million sales at release, or even close to that? in 18 months to 2 years down the road? doubtful.

By time this game is released, if it gets released...in 2 years or so...this game will be long forgotten and passed up by something better.

Nope, this is the model for the gaming industry.

Hype, get funding, throw out a, Alpha/Beta, get the $, and off to the next project.

Why, because people make it an acceptable business model.



Wat.

[Linked Image]
Posted By: Capt.Wells Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 12/11/20 04:22 PM
Sure, sure. All of those gamers constantly expressing a desire for older games to be remastered or updated to current generation standards are a fluke.
Posted By: Evandir Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 12/11/20 06:21 PM
Originally Posted by Uncle Lester


I think a patch per major change + some bugfixes and then several hotfixes until the next big patch would be reasonable.


That's a fair assessment. I still can't help but feel like a slower, more methodical approach would lead to more change in the long run. I admittedly don't have any dev experience, so take that with a grain of salt.
Posted By: PraiseThanos Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 12/11/20 06:31 PM
I too wish they at least put out announcements somewhat more frequently

It’s fine though; I have other games I can play until they add in the glorious ooga booga Big bonk class
Posted By: Topgoon Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 12/11/20 08:45 PM
Originally Posted by Flafnir

I find it a bit questionable to patch on Friday. When I think back to the last 2 patches and the bugs that still exist, I don't want to imagine what could go wrong with it.


+1

Remember when one of the patches denied players access to their existing saved games? Anything can happen - much safer to patch early in the week to ensure you have time to fix anything you break (instead of forcing weekend work).
Posted By: Vhaldez Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 12/11/20 08:54 PM
I'm going to guess and say that a patch is coming on Monday.
Posted By: Vamathi Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 12/11/20 08:56 PM
Originally Posted by Vhaldez
I'm going to guess and say that a patch is coming on Monday.

But tomorrow is still a possibility, right? ;(
Posted By: Vhaldez Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 12/11/20 08:57 PM
Originally Posted by Vamathi
Originally Posted by Vhaldez
I'm going to guess and say that a patch is coming on Monday.

But tomorrow is still a possibility, right? ;(
[Linked Image]
Posted By: Nicottia Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 12/11/20 09:07 PM
Eh, not gonna lie, an update or a patch would make me happy, but I don't mind waiting. Re-watching some of my fav TV series and re-playing some games in the meantime, who knows, maybe somewhere down the line I will get so bored of waiting between patches that I will actually manage to finish some games that have been on my 'to-do' list since ages. And speaking of another games, for sure Cyberpunk 2077 will be a good distraction between BG3 patches. smile Given CD Projekt won't delay it... again. Which I am betting they will. It's become a meme at this point. laugh

Well, it's that orrrr.... reading books or... brushing up my tablet and actually start drawing again. Got tons of inspirations already. We'll see. Got over a year until the game's fully out anyway. Got a lot of time too, unless... an airplane conveniently crashes on my apartment complex of course. wink
Posted By: KillerRabbit Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 12/11/20 09:14 PM
Originally Posted by Vamathi
Originally Posted by Vhaldez
I'm going to guess and say that a patch is coming on Monday.

But tomorrow is still a possibility, right? ;(


You can check this.

https://steamdb.info/app/1086940/depots/


I'll be making sure that baby Yoda is safe -- I worry about that guy.
Posted By: KillerRabbit Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 12/11/20 09:15 PM
@Nicotta

Did you see this?

https://ogn.theonion.com/gamers-we-need-to-come-clean-cyberpunk-2077-is-just-1845368691
Posted By: Nicottia Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 12/11/20 09:43 PM
Originally Posted by KillerRabbit


Now that is comedy gold. laugh Looks like real late april fools joke too. wink

But no, it's the first time I read this and rofl. Whoever wrote that article must've been real salty. wink Or ate too many onions. wink
Posted By: Tarlonniel Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 13/11/20 03:53 AM
All of the games on my Steam wishlist have been pushed back to 2021, Assassin's Creed: Valhalla went Epic exclusive (boooo) and Cyberpunk is off the table because it's first person only. frown

Maybe it's time to risk MMO addiction once again.
Posted By: Uncle Lester Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 13/11/20 11:29 AM
I just hope CP2077 doesn't get pushed past 2020, since, well, the tabletop game was Cyberpunk 2020.

Originally Posted by Tarlonniel
Assassin's Creed: Valhalla went Epic exclusive (boooo)


Whaaaat? Wow, I'm not up-to-date with game news. Personally I'm not that bothered since I'm not planning on playing AC anytime soon, but I didn't expect this. At all.
Posted By: Nyanko Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 13/11/20 11:37 AM
Originally Posted by Uncle Lester
I just hope CP2077 doesn't get pushed past 2020, since, well, the tabletop game was Cyberpunk 2020.

Originally Posted by Tarlonniel
Assassin's Creed: Valhalla went Epic exclusive (boooo)


Whaaaat? Wow, I'm not up-to-date with game news. Personally I'm not that bothered since I'm not planning on playing AC anytime soon, but I didn't expect this. At all.


Same reaction lol. I won't play it but it makes it even look worse than the SkillUp review.
Posted By: Tuco Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 13/11/20 11:38 AM
I despise AC since the first chapter (and still tried to play at least half of them at some point), so I can't really say that it going EGS-exclusive bothers me that much.
Especially since regardless of where you play the game, it will still launch on the crappy (but at least serviceable) Uplay client.

Still, I wonder if Ubisoft is actually getting out of the deal more than they are losing by not being on Steam.
EA and Microsoft both backtracked HARD in that sense.
Posted By: Uncle Lester Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 13/11/20 11:40 AM
Originally Posted by Nyanko
Originally Posted by Uncle Lester
I just hope CP2077 doesn't get pushed past 2020, since, well, the tabletop game was Cyberpunk 2020.

Originally Posted by Tarlonniel
Assassin's Creed: Valhalla went Epic exclusive (boooo)


Whaaaat? Wow, I'm not up-to-date with game news. Personally I'm not that bothered since I'm not planning on playing AC anytime soon, but I didn't expect this. At all.


Same reaction lol. I won't play it but it makes it even look worse than the SkillUp review.


I need to see that review... I didn't have great expectations nor will I play them soon, but I'd be happy if new AC games were good in general.
Posted By: Vamathi Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 13/11/20 11:43 AM
Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
You can check this.

https://steamdb.info/app/1086940/depots/


I'll be making sure that baby Yoda is safe -- I worry about that guy.

Why would you show this to my anxious brain. Last record update 3 hours ago.
*shakes Steam for update*
Posted By: Bukke Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 13/11/20 12:27 PM
Originally Posted by Vamathi
Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
You can check this.

https://steamdb.info/app/1086940/depots/


I'll be making sure that baby Yoda is safe -- I worry about that guy.

Why would you show this to my anxious brain. Last record update 3 hours ago.
*shakes Steam for update*

It's worth noting the patches on SteamDB get updated all the time when they change stuff or add new things to it.
The patches being changed recently doesn't necessarily mean we're getting them in the immediate future.
Posted By: Flafnir Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 13/11/20 12:34 PM
Originally Posted by Topgoon
Originally Posted by Flafnir

I find it a bit questionable to patch on Friday. When I think back to the last 2 patches and the bugs that still exist, I don't want to imagine what could go wrong with it.


+1

Remember when one of the patches denied players access to their existing saved games? Anything can happen - much safer to patch early in the week to ensure you have time to fix anything you break (instead of forcing weekend work).





And how I remember it. That's why I wrote it. All the screams Friday Patch are okay, have not even rudimentarily put themselves in a position where everything can go wrong and then find weekend work okay. There is a saying. A plan is only so good until the first enemy contact
Posted By: Tuco Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 13/11/20 12:35 PM
Originally Posted by Vamathi

Why would you show this to my anxious brain. Last record update 3 hours ago.
*shakes Steam for update*

If that can calm you down, it's been updated every few hours since past Friday and as you can see we are still waiting, so yeah: that's almost meaningless.
I mean, it tells us we are getting a patch 3 at some point in the near future, but that was already a given and it doesn't tell us exactly when.
Posted By: Vamathi Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 13/11/20 12:37 PM
Originally Posted by Bukke
It's worth noting the patches on SteamDB get updated all the time when they change stuff or add new things to it.
The patches being changed recently doesn't necessarily mean we're getting them in the immediate future.

I am aware, it was even updated on Wednesday this week no?
I could take some time off from checking on all the media, but I also don't want to miss next patch wink
Posted By: Bernkastel Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 13/11/20 01:38 PM
AC Valhalla is also available on uPlay/Ubistore.
Posted By: Tuco Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 13/11/20 01:42 PM
Originally Posted by Bernkastel
AC Valhalla is also available on uPlay/Ubistore.


Fuck that too, by the way.
Posted By: vyvexthorne Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 13/11/20 02:07 PM
Originally Posted by Tuco
I despise AC since the first chapter (and still tried to play at least half of them at some point), so I can't really say that it going EGS-exclusive bothers me that much.
Especially since regardless of where you play the game, it will still launch on the crappy (but at least serviceable) Uplay client.

Still, I wonder if Ubisoft is actually getting out of the deal more than they are losing by not being on Steam.
EA and Microsoft both backtracked HARD in that sense.


I wouldn't say I despise them but I definitely grew sick of the repetitive nature of the games. I played all the AC games up until Black Flag but I couldn't finish it and that's where I ended my first round. I picked it back up for Origins and loved every minute of it... I then made the mistake of buying Odyssey which again was just too much of the same thing. It's not that the AC Franchise is bad it's that they put them out every year and they are all too similar. I need that 3 or 4 year break between games for them to feel fresh and fun again. So yeah, If I ever pick up Valhalla it won't be until it's on sale for 15 bucks.
Posted By: Uncle Lester Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 13/11/20 07:25 PM
Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by Bernkastel
AC Valhalla is also available on uPlay/Ubistore.


Fuck that too, by the way.


I think the only good thing about uPlay is that Origin is worse. Though it might be debatable.

Originally Posted by vyvexthorne
Originally Posted by Tuco
I despise AC since the first chapter (and still tried to play at least half of them at some point), so I can't really say that it going EGS-exclusive bothers me that much.
Especially since regardless of where you play the game, it will still launch on the crappy (but at least serviceable) Uplay client.

Still, I wonder if Ubisoft is actually getting out of the deal more than they are losing by not being on Steam.
EA and Microsoft both backtracked HARD in that sense.


I wouldn't say I despise them but I definitely grew sick of the repetitive nature of the games. I played all the AC games up until Black Flag but I couldn't finish it and that's where I ended my first round. I picked it back up for Origins and loved every minute of it... I then made the mistake of buying Odyssey which again was just too much of the same thing. It's not that the AC Franchise is bad it's that they put them out every year and they are all too similar. I need that 3 or 4 year break between games for them to feel fresh and fun again. So yeah, If I ever pick up Valhalla it won't be until it's on sale for 15 bucks.


What would you say about RPG-fication of the franchise and all the booster/filler crap in Odyssey? (Haven't played since Revelations, but I can't say I like the direction they took, even if I agree that innovation is needed in the franchise. I wonder if it's as bad as I've heard.)
Posted By: Vhaldez Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 13/11/20 08:33 PM
They updated patch3 again over summer2020_loca so there must have been a bug that prevented them from pushing the local build to go live.
Posted By: N7Greenfire Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 13/11/20 08:41 PM
Originally Posted by Vhaldez
They updated patch3 again over summer2020_loca so there must have been a bug that prevented them from pushing the local build to go live.

Somone posted elsewhere that Belgum went under a strict covid curfew maybe they are holding off on pushing through public patches
Posted By: KillerRabbit Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 13/11/20 08:55 PM
Originally Posted by Vamathi
Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
You can check this.

https://steamdb.info/app/1086940/depots/


I'll be making sure that baby Yoda is safe -- I worry about that guy.

Why would you show this to my anxious brain. Last record update 3 hours ago.
*shakes Steam for update*



Have you tried turning Steam off and on again?
Posted By: Evil_it_Self Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 13/11/20 08:58 PM
the update 3 was deposed like 5 days ago.
before I even made this post smile
I guess it just makes the game more bugged then it already is, so, we not getting it
I saw it got updated like 7 or 8 times
they also working on mac version for 3% of gamers... lol that made me laugh a lot.
Posted By: whalesecrets Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 14/11/20 01:05 AM
Feeling a little bored, I get there is a lot to do and building a game of this magnitude is no small task, but it would be nice to at least hear SOMETHING from the studio, haven't seen any announcements in a while....
Great game so far but I think a little more community interaction would go a long way... I'm having Fallout 76 flashbacks over here.
I fear by the time the actual game is complete, people will have moved on.
Posted By: N7Greenfire Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 14/11/20 01:16 AM
Originally Posted by whalesecrets
Feeling a little bored, I get there is a lot to do and building a game of this magnitude is no small task, but it would be nice to at least hear SOMETHING from the studio, haven't seen any announcements in a while....
Great game so far but I think a little more community interaction would go a long way... I'm having Fallout 76 flashbacks over here.
I fear by the time the actual game is complete, people will have moved on.

They did a twitter update a few hours ago, they are working, just don't have anything ready yet
Posted By: Surface R Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 14/11/20 01:40 AM
Larian should install a reassuring twitter bot that will send small reassuring messages to concerned and anxious fans every day - free sign up of course.
"Just letting you know we are working hard today"
"Had more work done today."
"One more feature implemented for future patch, just hold on"
"Only three devs ended in the hospital due to covid today, but they can still code as long as they get oxygen!"
"The doctors told us they will lay them on their chest so they can type. All day."
Posted By: whalesecrets Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 14/11/20 02:35 AM
Fair, honestly even if their update was "all our developers have Covid" nothings happening for a month, it would still be nice to hear about what's going on.
I'll check the twitter feed, thanks for the tip!
Posted By: Vhaldez Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 14/11/20 09:47 AM
Originally Posted by N7Greenfire
They did a twitter update a few hours ago, they are working, just don't have anything ready yet
[Linked Image]
Hopefully the new update contains some previously WIP content like classes and Act 1C / 1D.
Posted By: Nicottia Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 14/11/20 11:58 AM
Originally Posted by Vhaldez
Originally Posted by N7Greenfire
They did a twitter update a few hours ago, they are working, just don't have anything ready yet
[Linked Image]
Hopefully the new update contains some previously WIP content like classes and Act 1C / 1D.


I'm gonna hazard a guess and say - 'under construction' scenes are gonna get lifted. We'll be able to appreciate more nude characters other than Minthara. wink

I'm curious how buggy will they be. I mean, Gale's little bed time story scene is glitch galore.
Posted By: Vamathi Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 14/11/20 12:03 PM
Originally Posted by Nicottia
I'm gonna hazard a guess and say - 'under construction' scenes are gonna get lifted. We'll be able to appreciate more nude characters other than Minthara. wink

I'm curious how buggy will they be. I mean, Gale's little bed time story scene is glitch galore.

I expect some of those to be added soonish as well and hopefully, they will be already a bit more polished (at least to a level of Minthara romance lol)
They kinda hinted at it in 9th community update too.
Posted By: Vhaldez Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 14/11/20 12:40 PM
Originally Posted by Nicottia
[quote=Vhaldez]I'm gonna hazard a guess and say - 'under construction' scenes are gonna get lifted. We'll be able to appreciate more nude characters other than Minthara. wink

I'm curious how buggy will they be. I mean, Gale's little bed time story scene is glitch galore.
If this is what they were working on for patch3 I want a spiritual refund.
Posted By: Waltc Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 17/11/20 10:46 PM
Of course it's a matter of patience. That goes without saying, when the description of the EA states the full game is still a year off--at least. At this rate--18 months, I'd say.

I think that EA purchasers also know that they have paid for "the full game," otherwise no one would have bought the EA if they had to turn around and pay $60 again
for the finished product grin.

Neither of those salient points is the point, imo. I think it would be good for Larian to set up a regular goal for patches--say, once a week. First it would mean patches that fix a minimum number of things, instead of a monolithic laundry list of patch items that stretches to infinity and therefore takes weeks if not months to complete. IE, better a small patch that fixes a few things correctly, served up on a weekly basis, rather than giant patches designed to fix two or three dozen things--and then breaking a dozen other things in the process--and taking three weeks to a month to offer!

It's just setting smaller goals but sticking to them, imo. If EA purchasers could see a small patch once a week, or even a somewhat larger patch every two weeks--on a regular basis--it would at least provide Larian's customers with a semblance of progress towards the final goal of the complete game. This makes perfect sense to me--don't know why it wouldn't for anyone.

As it is, daily I fire up Galaxy, hoping for a patch I never see. With no idea when the next one will fall. Of course, someone is going to tell me how ridiculous I am with these suggestions. Really, though, I'm not shooting for ridiculous, and I'm not complaining all that stringently--like I say, I see this game, done right, as the Game of the Decade very possibly! I'm just suggesting something that probably might serve to carve a bit of order out of the chaos, is it were... laugh

Do I expect it will matter? Good gosh, no...! But I am ever the optimist.
Posted By: Nyanko Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 17/11/20 10:47 PM
Originally Posted by Vhaldez
Originally Posted by Nicottia
[quote=Vhaldez]I'm gonna hazard a guess and say - 'under construction' scenes are gonna get lifted. We'll be able to appreciate more nude characters other than Minthara. wink

I'm curious how buggy will they be. I mean, Gale's little bed time story scene is glitch galore.
If this is what they were working on for patch3 I want a spiritual refund.


I admit. I laughed laugh
Posted By: mrfuji3 Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 17/11/20 11:12 PM
Originally Posted by Waltc
Of course it's a matter of patience. That goes without saying, when the description of the EA states the full game is still a year off--at least. At this rate--18 months, I'd say.

I think that EA purchasers also know that they have paid for "the full game," otherwise no one would have bought the EA if they had to turn around and pay $60 again
for the finished product grin.

Neither of those salient points is the point, imo. I think it would be good for Larian to set up a regular goal for patches--say, once a week. First it would mean patches that fix a minimum number of things, instead of a monolithic laundry list of patch items that stretches to infinity and therefore takes weeks if not months to complete. IE, better a small patch that fixes a few things correctly, served up on a weekly basis, rather than giant patches designed to fix two or three dozen things--and then breaking a dozen other things in the process--and taking three weeks to a month to offer!

It's just setting smaller goals but sticking to them, imo. If EA purchasers could see a small patch once a week, or even a somewhat larger patch every two weeks--on a regular basis--it would at least provide Larian's customers with a semblance of progress towards the final goal of the complete game. This makes perfect sense to me--don't know why it wouldn't for anyone.

As it is, daily I fire up Galaxy, hoping for a patch I never see. With no idea when the next one will fall. Of course, someone is going to tell me how ridiculous I am with these suggestions. Really, though, I'm not shooting for ridiculous, and I'm not complaining all that stringently--like I say, I see this game, done right, as the Game of the Decade very possibly! I'm just suggesting something that probably might serve to carve a bit of order out of the chaos, is it were... laugh

Do I expect it will matter? Good gosh, no...! But I am ever the optimist.

+1 Well said.
I'd be perfectly reluctantly happy with a patch every month, as long as there was a stated patch schedule so I could know when expect new content.
Posted By: RumRunner151 Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 17/11/20 11:58 PM
Originally Posted by Waltc

I think that EA purchasers also know that they have paid for "the full game," otherwise no one would have bought the EA if they had to turn around and pay $60 again
for the finished product grin.

I would have.


Originally Posted by Waltc
I think it would be good for Larian to set up a regular goal for patches--say, once a week.

That is beyond unrealistic. I would love to get an update weekly, but even asking for a monthly patch is probably too much. I don't think a lot of people don't understand what all is involved. You cant just say...well its Friday, lets put out what we have.
Posted By: Firesnakearies Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 18/11/20 04:37 AM
Originally Posted by RumRunner151
Originally Posted by Waltc

I think that EA purchasers also know that they have paid for "the full game," otherwise no one would have bought the EA if they had to turn around and pay $60 again
for the finished product grin.

I would have.


Originally Posted by Waltc
I think it would be good for Larian to set up a regular goal for patches--say, once a week.

That is beyond unrealistic. I would love to get an update weekly, but even asking for a monthly patch is probably too much. I don't think a lot of people don't understand what all is involved. You cant just say...well its Friday, lets put out what we have.





Yeah, once a week patches won't happen. What Rum said.
Posted By: Bukke Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 18/11/20 08:15 AM
Weekly patches is completely out of the question unless you want the weekly patch to just be tiny bug fixes or correcting labels and spelling mistakes.
Are people expecting a brand new class every week or something?
Posted By: Ari Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 18/11/20 08:19 AM
Come now. Think of the potential. Every week, they could change one npc name. Or they could hide a Sven model somewhere in the game. It will be like a “where’s waldo” book.
Posted By: RumRunner151 Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 18/11/20 08:22 AM
Originally Posted by Ari
Come now. Think of the potential. Every week, they could .... hide a Sven model somewhere in the game. It will be like a “where’s waldo” book.

I have changed my mind. I fully support this. I demand weekly patches now!
Posted By: mr_planescapist Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 18/11/20 08:50 AM
I think Larian is about to blow us away with an amazing update, probably beginning of December:

<back to our roots> patch
DnD5th full out.
BG2 levels of atmosphere.
Revised UI.
Revised cinematic dialogues. Minor dialogues are now DOS2 text based so they concentrate on story heavy elements and add tons of options and improve animation quality.
Five new highly detailed playable NPCs.
Party of 5. Because <wink wink> 5th edition?

or

<AAA wanabe club special> patch
Some stability patches and OSX fixes, Stadia only performance enhancements.
Controller support for console gamers.
Multiplayer bug fixes. Multiplayer bug fixes. Multiplayer bug fixes.
Yet increased HP bloat and weapon damage increase.
Streamline UI for console users.
Tutorial mode for first timers to RPGs.
Three new cringy sex scenes. Your on top, he/shes on top, and threesome party camp mode.
Posted By: Uncle Lester Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 18/11/20 09:41 AM
Originally Posted by Ari
Come now. Think of the potential. Every week, they could change one npc name. Or they could hide a Sven model somewhere in the game. It will be like a “where’s waldo” book.


...you know, I'd be on board with "where did Swen hide this week?"
Posted By: Firesnakearies Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 18/11/20 10:29 AM
Find Swen sounds like a fun minigame for Early Access.
Posted By: Bukke Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 18/11/20 11:07 AM
Originally Posted by mr_planescapist
I think Larian is about to blow us away with an amazing update, probably beginning of December:

<back to our roots> patch
DnD5th full out.
BG2 levels of atmosphere.
Revised UI.
Revised cinematic dialogues. Minor dialogues are now DOS2 text based so they concentrate on story heavy elements and add tons of options and improve animation quality.
Five new highly detailed playable NPCs.
Party of 5. Because <wink wink> 5th edition?

or

<AAA wanabe club special> patch
Some stability patches and OSX fixes, Stadia only performance enhancements.
Controller support for console gamers.
Multiplayer bug fixes. Multiplayer bug fixes. Multiplayer bug fixes.
Yet increased HP bloat and weapon damage increase.
Streamline UI for console users.
Tutorial mode for first timers to RPGs.
Three new cringy sex scenes. Your on top, he/shes on top, and threesome party camp mode.

Cautiously optimistic
Posted By: Nyanko Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 18/11/20 11:12 AM
Originally Posted by Bukke
Originally Posted by mr_planescapist
I think Larian is about to blow us away with an amazing update, probably beginning of December:

<back to our roots> patch
DnD5th full out.
BG2 levels of atmosphere.
Revised UI.
Revised cinematic dialogues. Minor dialogues are now DOS2 text based so they concentrate on story heavy elements and add tons of options and improve animation quality.
Five new highly detailed playable NPCs.
Party of 5. Because <wink wink> 5th edition?

or

<AAA wanabe club special> patch
Some stability patches and OSX fixes, Stadia only performance enhancements.
Controller support for console gamers.
Multiplayer bug fixes. Multiplayer bug fixes. Multiplayer bug fixes.
Yet increased HP bloat and weapon damage increase.
Streamline UI for console users.
Tutorial mode for first timers to RPGs.
Three new cringy sex scenes. Your on top, he/shes on top, and threesome party camp mode.

Cautiously optimistic


They're going to blow us all with their new cinematics!
Posted By: Verte Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 18/11/20 11:14 AM
I forgot how horny we are.
Posted By: Vhaldez Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 18/11/20 11:22 AM
Originally Posted by Nyanko
They're going to blow us all with their new cinematics!
5GB companion sex scene patch here I come
Posted By: Abits Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 18/11/20 11:31 AM
Originally Posted by Nyanko


They're going to blow us all with their new cinematics!

If they will I'll be happy. This should be top priority for them
Posted By: Asseronia Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 18/11/20 11:46 AM
Originally Posted by Abits
Originally Posted by Nyanko


They're going to blow us all with their new cinematics!

If they will I'll be happy. This should be top priority for them


I'm not 100% it this should be a priority - but this is definitely high on the list.
Cinematics are important - but you can still play the game with some broken cinematic-like Shadow Druids wink

I would love to see that they address issues related to game mechanics - you can currently use stealth and ranged attacks to destroy every fight without taking a single point of damage.
There are also a lot of issues related to another aspect of the enemy AI.

Personally, I would like to see fixes to game mechanics before cinematic fixes - but reality is that that probably those are task for 2 different teams and we could get both in future updates smile
Posted By: Abits Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 18/11/20 11:54 AM
It should be high priority at the very least since it is the most complicated thing to fix.
Posted By: gaymer Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 19/11/20 11:24 AM
I wish they could at least say what Patch 3 will entail or the timeline for a new class
Posted By: Asseronia Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 19/11/20 12:34 PM
Originally Posted by gaymer
I wish they could at least say what Patch 3 will entail or the timeline for a new class


Larian never did an announcement for patches, they hardly tell us what's there gonna be until something is nearly done.
This is a common tactic - if you need to cut something out, no one really is mad at you because no one knows about it in the first place wink

Everyone would love to see some update but EA is only for one month - this is not much - I'm sure that patch is close, but it still could be like 2-3 weeks.
Posted By: Abits Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 19/11/20 01:01 PM
Originally Posted by Asseronia
Originally Posted by gaymer
I wish they could at least say what Patch 3 will entail or the timeline for a new class


Larian never did an announcement for patches, they hardly tell us what's there gonna be until something is nearly done.
This is a common tactic - if you need to cut something out, no one really is mad at you because no one knows about it in the first place wink

Everyone would love to see some update but EA is only for one month - this is not much - I'm sure that patch is close, but it still could be like 2-3 weeks.

This is my assumption as well. I assume they just don't want to commit to anything that isn't a done deal, which is more than fair. I just don't understand why not say it explicitly.
Posted By: BilboWPG Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 22/11/20 04:23 PM
I am no longer optimistic. The last time I paid to alpha/beta test a game and got long streaks of radio silence interrupted by infrequent, anemic patches I got Warcraft III Reforged.

I try to hold a fragment of hope, but I'm preparing for a dumpster fire (probably ignited by a barrelmancer).
Posted By: Ixal Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 22/11/20 04:49 PM
Originally Posted by Abits
Originally Posted by Asseronia
Originally Posted by gaymer
I wish they could at least say what Patch 3 will entail or the timeline for a new class


Larian never did an announcement for patches, they hardly tell us what's there gonna be until something is nearly done.
This is a common tactic - if you need to cut something out, no one really is mad at you because no one knows about it in the first place wink

Everyone would love to see some update but EA is only for one month - this is not much - I'm sure that patch is close, but it still could be like 2-3 weeks.

This is my assumption as well. I assume they just don't want to commit to anything that isn't a done deal, which is more than fair. I just don't understand why not say it explicitly.


You should ask yourself why nothing seems to be "a done deal" so that it can be announced.
Posted By: Vhaldez Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 22/11/20 04:53 PM
Originally Posted by BilboWPG
I am no longer optimistic. The last time I paid to alpha/beta test a game and got long streaks of radio silence interrupted by infrequent, anemic patches I got Warcraft III Reforged.

I try to hold a fragment of hope, but I'm preparing for a dumpster fire (probably ignited by a barrelmancer).
Let the upcoming update speak for itself. Also keep in mind that Larian is still getting 3k-4k players a day so their feedback stream hasn't stopped even though I reckon most people here quit by now.
Posted By: Ravenfeeder Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 23/11/20 02:28 PM
Lots of patches means lots of money not spent on developing the game. Let them only do it when they have plenty that needs new EA input. Remember as well as the direct cost to Larian in providing the patch (development, editing for EA and QA), they also have to pay Steam/whoever for the privilege of the download. Steam/whoever aren't going to provide all that storage and bandwidth for free and they can't monetise patches (yet).

I would prefer all that EA money go to development rather than some quick content just to please a few forum-goers. Don't get me wrong, I'd love more content, but I know resources are finite.
Posted By: Nyanko Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 23/11/20 02:30 PM
Originally Posted by Vhaldez
Originally Posted by BilboWPG
I am no longer optimistic. The last time I paid to alpha/beta test a game and got long streaks of radio silence interrupted by infrequent, anemic patches I got Warcraft III Reforged.

I try to hold a fragment of hope, but I'm preparing for a dumpster fire (probably ignited by a barrelmancer).
Let the upcoming update speak for itself. Also keep in mind that Larian is still getting 3k-4k players a day so their feedback stream hasn't stopped even though I reckon most people here quit by now.


There are some big titles coming up soon so I think Larian doesn't expect us to stick around, especially if they are not updating their game regularly. But still, I think the main issue is not exactly on their hands. The country lockdown they've been going through right now doesn't help much with development and setting up update videos or pushing content.
Posted By: Thrandarian Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 23/11/20 03:27 PM
They made an absolute killing on this game already. There is zero reason to put a huge amount of resources in this game. They sold over 1 mil copies at face value cost. I'm sure the majority of their resources are working on the next greatest project they can sucker another mil peeps to pay full retail for.

The patches for this game will be far and few until release, if it ever gets that far.

Enjoy the new business model, Hype, early access, get paid...and on the the next project.
Posted By: Abits Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 23/11/20 03:45 PM
Originally Posted by Thrandarian
They made an absolute killing on this game already. There is zero reason to put a huge amount of resources in this game. They sold over 1 mil copies at face value cost. I'm sure the majority of their resources are working on the next greatest project they can sucker another mil peeps to pay full retail for.

The patches for this game will be far and few until release, if it ever gets that far.

Enjoy the new business model, Hype, early access, get paid...and on the the next project.

Oh come on! go back to steam
Posted By: Zellin Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 23/11/20 04:07 PM
Originally Posted by Abits
Originally Posted by Thrandarian
They made an absolute killing on this game already. There is zero reason to put a huge amount of resources in this game. They sold over 1 mil copies at face value cost. I'm sure the majority of their resources are working on the next greatest project they can sucker another mil peeps to pay full retail for.

The patches for this game will be far and few until release, if it ever gets that far.

Enjoy the new business model, Hype, early access, get paid...and on the the next project.

Oh come on! go back to steam

B-but steam is filled with happiness and unicorns, and rainbows made of butterflies! Maybe only in my language though.
Posted By: Abits Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 23/11/20 04:47 PM
In English it's full of silly, childish, whiney and baseless comments just like this one
Posted By: Sadurian Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 23/11/20 05:28 PM
Manners please, people.
Posted By: Soul-Scar Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 23/11/20 05:39 PM
Originally Posted by Thrandarian
They made an absolute killing on this game already. There is zero reason to put a huge amount of resources in this game. They sold over 1 mil copies at face value cost. I'm sure the majority of their resources are working on the next greatest project they can sucker another mil peeps to pay full retail for.

The patches for this game will be far and few until release, if it ever gets that far.

Enjoy the new business model, Hype, early access, get paid...and on the the next project.


That would be embarrassing and massively counter productive for Larian. They have built a reputation and those things are worth more than a one time million+ sales. I believe if this was EA or Bethesda they would have cut the dev team by 70% and be working on the next lootbox Ladbrookes simulator. Even worse is Scam Citizen. Narr they will be completing the game.
Posted By: BilboWPG Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 23/11/20 06:24 PM
And Blizzard had a good reputation... and a little before that Bethesda had a good reputation... and back in the early years of pc gaming, a small company called Electronic Arts (and not EA) had a very good reputation. You're only as good as the effort put in to your latest work, and the jury is still out on this one imo.
Posted By: Abits Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 23/11/20 06:39 PM
Originally Posted by BilboWPG
And Blizzard had a good reputation... and a little before that Bethesda had a good reputation... and back in the early years of pc gaming, a small company called Electronic Arts (and not EA) had a very good reputation. You're only as good as the effort put in to your latest work, and the jury is still out on this one imo.

This IS true. and I suppose a day may come, that larian will be too big to care about their fans. but I seriously think It is not this day
[Linked Image]
Posted By: Uncle Lester Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 23/11/20 08:39 PM
You know, a digression, but I'm really curious about the future of Bethesda. I'm almost optimistic after the acquisition. Which is extremely bizarre by itself. I've already discarded all hope for good (or just barely decent) TESVI, but maybe MS will beat some sense into Bethesda... Won't be worse than Zenimax, eh?
Posted By: Firesnakearies Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 24/11/20 03:58 AM
Originally Posted by Thrandarian
They made an absolute killing on this game already. There is zero reason to put a huge amount of resources in this game. They sold over 1 mil copies at face value cost. I'm sure the majority of their resources are working on the next greatest project they can sucker another mil peeps to pay full retail for.

The patches for this game will be far and few until release, if it ever gets that far.

Enjoy the new business model, Hype, early access, get paid...and on the the next project.



I, too, like to make up some random nonsense that has nothing to do with the truth.
Posted By: Tzelanit Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 24/11/20 04:13 AM
Anyone else feel bad that the mods here have basically been left to attempt to herd cats for at least a year over the course of weeks and months of dead air?
I do not envy you guys.
Posted By: Anfindel Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 24/11/20 06:18 AM

.
Originally Posted by Tzelanit
Anyone else feel bad that the mods here have basically been left to attempt to herd cats for at least a year over the course of weeks and months of dead air?
I do not envy you guys.


I seem to recall a quest somewhere that involved "herding" 10 cats back home.

This must be an example of life mirroring fiction.
Posted By: Ari Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 24/11/20 07:54 AM
At least wait for them to screw up before you start crying foul. Perhaps the initial price tag was a bit avaricious, but they were not particularly deceitful about what you were buying. And they have not declared they have burnt the ship and are on a lifeboat with our hard earned coin.
Posted By: Nyanko Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 24/11/20 09:34 AM
Originally Posted by Abits
Originally Posted by BilboWPG
And Blizzard had a good reputation... and a little before that Bethesda had a good reputation... and back in the early years of pc gaming, a small company called Electronic Arts (and not EA) had a very good reputation. You're only as good as the effort put in to your latest work, and the jury is still out on this one imo.

This IS true. and I suppose a day may come, that larian will be too big to care about their fans. but I seriously think It is not this day
[Linked Image]




Steve Jobs had given a good insight on exactly when it happens back in the day. As long as Swen is truly in charge, it won't I guess.
Posted By: Abits Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 24/11/20 09:52 AM
Originally Posted by Nyanko
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfeWhYj5zkQ

Steve Jobs had given a good insight on exactly when it happens back in the day. As long as Swen is truly in charge, it won't I guess.

Very insightful. Thanks for that
Posted By: Tzelanit Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 24/11/20 05:38 PM
Originally Posted by Ari
At least wait for them to screw up before you start crying foul. Perhaps the initial price tag was a bit avaricious, but they were not particularly deceitful about what you were buying. And they have not declared they have burnt the ship and are on a lifeboat with our hard earned coin.


Companies don't declare that a ship burned into the ocean depths until a diving team starts pulling charred evidence of the wreckage from the sea floor.
"Hi, we took your money and ran" isn't exactly a solid business practice.
Posted By: N7Greenfire Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 24/11/20 08:07 PM
New patch announcement boiiiiii
Posted By: Abits Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 24/11/20 08:13 PM
For now only the announcement though lol. but it seems we're gonna get some story changes.
Posted By: Evil_it_Self Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 24/11/20 08:23 PM
Originally Posted by N7Greenfire
New patch announcement boiiiiii

its just a bait post smile

around the corner can mean tomorrow or next year.
Posted By: KillerRabbit Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 24/11/20 08:38 PM
Does anyone else think this is a really awful thing for the devs to do? It completely invalidates many of the theories on the thread!

It's like that philosopher in Trademeet, why would anyone be so selfish as to save him?

Should be obvious but wink just in case
Posted By: Innateagle Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 24/11/20 10:22 PM
It'd make sense for them to release the next patch in the next few days, and the one after that in January/February. Pretty sure december's gonna be Cyberpunk's month
Posted By: Nyanko Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 24/11/20 10:57 PM
Originally Posted by Innateagle
It'd make sense for them to release the next patch in the next few days, and the one after that in January/February. Pretty sure december's gonna be Cyberpunk's month


Cyber what?

No, just kidding. I know where the door is... laugh
Posted By: KillerRabbit Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 24/11/20 11:28 PM
Can't believe people still think Cyberpunk is a real game:

https://ogn.theonion.com/gamers-we-need-to-come-clean-cyberpunk-2077-is-just-1845368691
Posted By: A Clown Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 25/11/20 11:43 AM
Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
Can't believe people still think Cyberpunk is a real game:

https://ogn.theonion.com/gamers-we-need-to-come-clean-cyberpunk-2077-is-just-1845368691


That was all my milk money! Now I cant buy milk for then next 3 months!!!!!
Posted By: Sozz Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 26/11/20 01:06 AM
I know I won't be spending much time in meatspace for a while soon
Posted By: gaymer Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 30/11/20 11:33 AM
They've started working on Patch 4 but won't even release Patch 3. Company is ridiculous at this point.
Posted By: Abits Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 30/11/20 11:51 AM
I wonder... I don't believe most bg3 players think this way. Probably only the die hard fans like us who check the forums several times a day
Posted By: yellowsapphire88 Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 30/11/20 12:45 PM
Originally Posted by gaymer
They've started working on Patch 4 but won't even release Patch 3. Company is ridiculous at this point.



That's normal though??

The current patch is likely going through QA. I'm assuming you'd rather the devs actually did work on the next patch while QA's working on the current one, rather just sitting there doing nothing until the patch goes out? *shrug*
Posted By: Evil_it_Self Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 30/11/20 12:53 PM
Patch 4 was Deposed
its a good sign. smile

Posted By: gaymer Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 02/12/20 06:21 PM
Originally Posted by Evil_it_Self
Patch 4 was Deposed
its a good sign. smile



We're ready for Patch 4.
Posted By: Thrandarian Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 02/12/20 07:49 PM
Originally Posted by gaymer
Originally Posted by Evil_it_Self
Patch 4 was Deposed
its a good sign. smile



We're ready for Patch 4.


Agreed, after reading Patch 3 notes...*Yawn*. Ready for Patch 4.
Posted By: gaymer Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 08/02/21 08:59 AM
Bump
Posted By: Thrandarian Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 08/02/21 08:56 PM
2 month check in...

*Yawn*
Posted By: DuskHorseman Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 08/02/21 09:01 PM
Personally, I find the wait time somewhat reassuring. If they're taking so long on this one, that means that it's bound to have something of interest in it. So, looking forward to that.
Posted By: Evil_it_Self Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 09/02/21 04:26 PM
what is that baldur's gate 3 game?
oh right that Dos 3 game form 4 month ago.
did anything changed since ? nope.
Posted By: Lastman Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 09/02/21 07:25 PM
I get why people want major patches but i for one could care less about those.

It's totally fine if they take 6 months or more for the next major patch i don't care. But give us feedback teasers so we can give feedback on those something, anything so we can build community around it! We all know how small, broke ass companies do their EAs. You did it for years so why stop? If a guy can solo code for 12 hours and then post on the forum for few more hours??? There is no reason why a company of 300 can't do it.


Let us be part of the development that was the main reason for EA your words not my. EA to make the game better!!



You did it for Dos 8 years ago when you were broke, so you can do it now! Years later multiple millions from us. Not like it takes a week to make and post a video like that.

And everyone who can read knows what work in progress is so there is no reason not to post!

Btw posts on your twitter on how you're making next patch or if or when you're flooding - whatever is bunch of empty worlds and it's pointless. It just makes studios PR look bad, like amateurs are running lt.

Everyone knows you didn't leave and left the game to die after all it's your golden goose.

People just want to see teasers. The same reason why League of Leagues gives feedback, like skins and champions feedback on changes. So people feel connected to the game how hard is to understand? They have 140 million players learn something from them.

https://na.leagueoflegends.com/en-us/news/dev/

And that's just for dev feedback not counting game launcher info, patch notes, twitters and other platforms. Learn and get you money! 1 billion a year learn from the best... And trust me no one would talk about floods at Riot even if they happen.

Ow and if anyone thinks i'm asking for to much, here is just a snap from BG 3 GoG store site. Maybe you should change those.


"How can I get a better sense of what's to come during development?"

"Check out the game's forums for a better idea of where the game is heading, and a chance to talk to the devs about the future of their game."

Now this would be expecting to much "talk to the devs about the future of their game" but it still happens with devs that care.

Tease tease tease... fuel that hype train! No need for patches if you tease people.
Posted By: Icelyn Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 09/02/21 11:38 PM
Maybe we will get something for Valentine's Day. smile
Posted By: Aishaddai Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 10/02/21 01:07 AM
I'm a bit bored as well with all this waiting. I don't even want story spoils. I just want to see Paladin Oath of vengeance and the other party members. I especially want to see the good party members to see the difference between their idea of good and evil. I also want to see how many good party members are actually getting in so I have a better idea of what kind of game I'll be playing.

I'll be moderately content to just theory craft builds for my party from then till release.
Posted By: LukasPrism Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 10/02/21 01:16 AM
They seem to be enjoying this aura of mystery and these big, high-production value reveals. As someone who works in a creative agency, this is a bad way to collaborate. The client (in this case us, the EA ‘backers’) either feels like they’re settling for something not quite what they asked for or the studio has to do a lot of extra work to bring it in line. Communicating effectively can avoid all of this.
Posted By: Imryll Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 10/02/21 01:17 PM
Originally Posted by LukasPrism
They seem to be enjoying this aura of mystery and these big, high-production value reveals. As someone who works in a creative agency, this is a bad way to collaborate. The client (in this case us, the EA ‘backers’) either feels like they’re settling for something not quite what they asked for or the studio has to do a lot of extra work to bring it in line. Communicating effectively can avoid all of this.

Early Access doesn't mean made-to-order, and even if it did not all players want the same things. The responsibility for creating a fun game with effectively inter-locking systems is Larian's. Designing to specs laid down by the noisiest players doesn't seem like a good idea to me.
Posted By: marajango Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 10/02/21 05:01 PM
Originally Posted by Imryll
Originally Posted by LukasPrism
They seem to be enjoying this aura of mystery and these big, high-production value reveals. As someone who works in a creative agency, this is a bad way to collaborate. The client (in this case us, the EA ‘backers’) either feels like they’re settling for something not quite what they asked for or the studio has to do a lot of extra work to bring it in line. Communicating effectively can avoid all of this.

Early Access doesn't mean made-to-order, and even if it did not all players want the same things. The responsibility for creating a fun game with effectively inter-locking systems is Larian's. Designing to specs laid down by the noisiest players doesn't seem like a good idea to me.
Early Access also doesn't mean to take the money and run with it. Everyone is allowed to have a different opinion on how close Larian should follow feedback but weeks and months of practically radio silence and not engaging any conversation with the people paying for your work isn't really a sign of being at eye level with your customers. Sure, some people are fine with that and that's ok but some people are expecting a little bit more when they take their time to test everything (basically doing the work others get paid for) and provide suggestions and feedback about what could be done differently. And honestly, just a little weekly or biweekly community update about how things are going and what is being worked on and discussed with the team would go a long way. People are not expecting a two-page article every single time, just a little update.
And again, if you personally don't care about such things, that's fine as well.
Posted By: Lastman Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 10/02/21 06:50 PM
Originally Posted by marajango
[quote=Imryll]
And again, if you personally don't care about such things, that's fine as well.
So true, but then again you have no good reason to be in this thread...
Posted By: Peranor Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 11/02/21 05:11 PM
Originally Posted by Gaidax
It would be also super awesome if they'd go full POG and offer community a choice between several classes to work on next, like some sort of secure poll offering a choice between let's say - Sorcerer, Bard and Druid and let people vote for which should be given priority for EA.

This would be great. But unfortunately that would require Larian to actually communicate and engage in some kind of bare minimum dialogue with the community and the EA testers. Alas, that seems to be something they are hell-bent on not doing.
Posted By: DuskHorseman Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 11/02/21 05:25 PM
Well, we have the Panel from Hell II coming up on wednesday, so hopefully we will get the communication we so crave from that.
Posted By: Icelyn Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 11/02/21 06:26 PM
Originally Posted by DuskHorseman
Well, we have the Panel from Hell II coming up on wednesday, so hopefully we will get the communication we so crave from that.
Can't wait! party
Posted By: LukasPrism Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 11/02/21 07:52 PM
I’m sure this patch will be a big one, but wow they’re really perpetuating this huge song and dance every time they want to communicate with us. Today we had an announcement about a future event where they’re making another announcement.

I think their Coming Soon™ should be upgraded to Coming Soon®
Posted By: Warlocke Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 12/02/21 12:44 AM
Originally Posted by LukasPrism
I’m sure this patch will be a big one, but wow they’re really perpetuating this huge song and dance every time they want to communicate with us. Today we had an announcement about a future event where they’re making another announcement.

I think their Coming Soon™ should be upgraded to Coming Soon®

Making an announcement for an event where announcements will be made is industry standard practice and has been for a long time. How would people know to log into the event (or attend an event in a Covid free alternate timeline) if they didn't announce it?
Posted By: LukasPrism Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 12/02/21 02:29 AM
Originally Posted by Warlocke
Originally Posted by LukasPrism
I’m sure this patch will be a big one, but wow they’re really perpetuating this huge song and dance every time they want to communicate with us. Today we had an announcement about a future event where they’re making another announcement.

I think their Coming Soon™ should be upgraded to Coming Soon®

Making an announcement for an event where announcements will be made is industry standard practice and has been for a long time. How would people know to log into the event (or attend an event in a Covid free alternate timeline) if they didn't announce it?

Pretty sure it’s not industry standard to tease announcements for an event to reveal an EA patch. New titles or expansions, yes. Considering we’ve paid full price to be part of this EA experience, having the only real communications come in the form of trumpeted events is a huge let-down, and not how Larian have done it historically either.
Posted By: IrenicusBG3 Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 12/02/21 02:41 AM
Panel from Hell is the new Nightcity wire.
Posted By: LukasPrism Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 12/02/21 03:30 AM
Originally Posted by IrenicusBG3
Panel from Hell is the new Nightcity wire.

Oh, please don’t let this be true.
Posted By: Warlocke Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 12/02/21 08:23 AM
Originally Posted by LukasPrism
Originally Posted by Warlocke
Originally Posted by LukasPrism
I’m sure this patch will be a big one, but wow they’re really perpetuating this huge song and dance every time they want to communicate with us. Today we had an announcement about a future event where they’re making another announcement.

I think their Coming Soon™ should be upgraded to Coming Soon®

Making an announcement for an event where announcements will be made is industry standard practice and has been for a long time. How would people know to log into the event (or attend an event in a Covid free alternate timeline) if they didn't announce it?

Pretty sure it’s not industry standard to tease announcements for an event to reveal an EA patch. New titles or expansions, yes. Considering we’ve paid full price to be part of this EA experience, having the only real communications come in the form of trumpeted events is a huge let-down, and not how Larian have done it historically either.

Nope. If you are live streaming something, anything, and want people to watch you let them know beforehand. There is nothing remotely unusual about that.
Posted By: gaymer Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 12/02/21 09:45 AM
Originally Posted by Warlocke
Originally Posted by LukasPrism
Originally Posted by Warlocke
Originally Posted by LukasPrism
I’m sure this patch will be a big one, but wow they’re really perpetuating this huge song and dance every time they want to communicate with us. Today we had an announcement about a future event where they’re making another announcement.

I think their Coming Soon™ should be upgraded to Coming Soon®

Making an announcement for an event where announcements will be made is industry standard practice and has been for a long time. How would people know to log into the event (or attend an event in a Covid free alternate timeline) if they didn't announce it?

Pretty sure it’s not industry standard to tease announcements for an event to reveal an EA patch. New titles or expansions, yes. Considering we’ve paid full price to be part of this EA experience, having the only real communications come in the form of trumpeted events is a huge let-down, and not how Larian have done it historically either.

Nope. If you are live streaming something, anything, and want people to watch you let them know beforehand. There is nothing remotely unusual about that.

But why does there need to be a big Twitch reveal for another EA patch. Why all the spectacle to make it seem like they care about communication when it's been radio silence (AGAIN) for months.

And they know how negative impact this has on the community, but they continue to do it.

Why can't they just tweet out the date the patch will go live and post the patch notes. If they want to have a teaser, confirm via tweet on today that it will be a NEW _____

This is just to put on a show for people who have already bought the damn game.
Posted By: Seraphael Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 12/02/21 10:24 AM
Originally Posted by LukasPrism
Pretty sure it’s not industry standard to tease announcements for an event to reveal an EA patch. New titles or expansions, yes. Considering we’ve paid full price to be part of this EA experience, having the only real communications come in the form of trumpeted events is a huge let-down, and not how Larian have done it historically either.
You left out you actually paid the full price for the full game. Playing early, getting an opportunity to influence the development even in the slightest, while also supporting a good up-and-coming developer is what you get back for paying early. Feeling hugely let down by somewhat lackluster communication just as Larian announce another panel event speaks more about entitlement issues than any failing on Larian's part imo.
Posted By: Terminator2020 Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 12/02/21 11:05 AM
Personally for me (this is not a personal attack on OP and it is subjective taste) it is totally unrealistic and silly wish to want a patch every second week. If it is huge patch every second month and if needed some hotfix to fix bugs etc in addition to that I am fine with it.

What nonsense!

They do not have to release anything of Act 2 and Act 3 in Early Access and I wish they do not do that.

Having in Early Access all classes in Players Handbook and all Cleric domains would be nice and if there are going to be more races for full release then to release them also.

They could release the 1b area everything from Chapter 1.
Posted By: Dexai Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 12/02/21 11:16 AM
Originally Posted by Seraphael
Originally Posted by LukasPrism
Pretty sure it’s not industry standard to tease announcements for an event to reveal an EA patch. New titles or expansions, yes. Considering we’ve paid full price to be part of this EA experience, having the only real communications come in the form of trumpeted events is a huge let-down, and not how Larian have done it historically either.
You left out you actually paid the full price for the full game. Playing early, getting an opportunity to influence the development even in the slightest, while also supporting a good up-and-coming developer is what you get back for paying early. Feeling hugely let down by somewhat lackluster communication just as Larian announce another panel event speaks more about entitlement issues than any failing on Larian's part imo.

"You're entitled to the opportunity of influencing game development but you're not entitled to communication"
Posted By: Warlocke Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 12/02/21 05:40 PM
Originally Posted by gaymer
But why does there need to be a big Twitch reveal for another EA patch. Why all the spectacle to make it seem like they care about communication when it's been radio silence (AGAIN) for months.

And they know how negative impact this has on the community, but they continue to do it.

Why can't they just tweet out the date the patch will go live and post the patch notes. If they want to have a teaser, confirm via tweet on today that it will be a NEW _____

This is just to put on a show for people who have already bought the damn game.

Well, for one, they probably want more people to buy the game. BG3 is still technically an unreleased game. What do game studios do to build interest for unreleased games? They hold live steaming events. That’s marketing.

Second, I don’t know why they feel that they specifically need to hold an event for this patch, but I could speculate that they possibly want to discuss something about the data the have collected and / or the path forward beyond this patch.

Third, why not hold an event? It’s not like you will get the patch sooner without the event.

And why do you need constant updates? Seriously? I don’t need to know what they are doing week by week. Why would I? They are negatively impacting the community? That sounds to me like the community should grow up.

Sorry for being rude but this entire line of complaint is dumb.
Posted By: Alrik Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 12/02/21 11:34 PM
I'd prefer big patches every 3 months or so.
Posted By: Anfindel Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 13/02/21 02:34 AM
I'd prefer patches when Larian feels they are good and ready to provide one. Same goes for updates.

I'm not the developer, so I sure as heck am not going to try and dictate how they proceed in developing their product.

I get to view the product as it is being developed, give my suggestions, comments and opinions to the developer - end of story.

I had the choice of buying the game in early access, or waiting until full release - I made my choice.

If I want to travel from Texas to Chicago, I get to choose my destination, my travel dates, my mode of transportation, what I eat while I travel - but I don't get to dictate the design of the vehicle.

If I contract to have a house built, I get to provide input into design and décor choices, but I don't get to dictate HOW the house is built, whether board a is connected to panel b by screws or nails is not my call.
Posted By: mr_planescapist Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 13/02/21 10:37 AM
EA nowadays is an AMAZING marketing way to screw fans over, while at the same time give the illusion to people that they are being listened to for future developments / patches. Its just a win win solution when making a game now.
You can be SURE that Larian already knew what fans would complain about, it is incredibly OBVIOUS.

So basically fans of DOS games will be pretty happy. Fans of Baldurs gate games not so happy. And fans of D&D in general pretty unhappy. They ALL bought into EA. Money in the bank from lovers of BG3 and haters alike.
Posted By: marajango Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 13/02/21 10:47 AM
Originally Posted by Anfindel
I'd prefer patches when Larian feels they are good and ready to provide one. Same goes for updates.

I'm not the developer, so I sure as heck am not going to try and dictate how they proceed in developing their product.

I get to view the product as it is being developed, give my suggestions, comments and opinions to the developer - end of story.

I had the choice of buying the game in early access, or waiting until full release - I made my choice.

If I want to travel from Texas to Chicago, I get to choose my destination, my travel dates, my mode of transportation, what I eat while I travel - but I don't get to dictate the design of the vehicle.

If I contract to have a house built, I get to provide input into design and décor choices, but I don't get to dictate HOW the house is built, whether board a is connected to panel b by screws or nails is not my call.
You perfectly described a preorder of a game, not an early access where having a dialogue between developers and their audience is key. So far the communication has been lacking on one side of the table pretty heavily.
Again, if you went into this early access expecting it to be nothing else than a preorder, just waiting for the final release, that's fine for you but other people expect a little bit more from a dialogue than talking to a wall.
Posted By: pageu Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 13/02/21 11:38 AM
Originally Posted by mr_planescapist
(...)

So basically fans of DOS games will be pretty happy. Fans of Baldurs gate games not so happy. And fans of D&D in general pretty unhappy. (...)

I'm a fan of classic BG games, played it countless times since release 20 years ago and I'm VERY happy with this EA. So you're generalizing and you're wrong.
Posted By: DuskHorseman Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 13/02/21 12:47 PM
Originally Posted by pageu
Originally Posted by mr_planescapist
(...)

So basically fans of DOS games will be pretty happy. Fans of Baldurs gate games not so happy. And fans of D&D in general pretty unhappy. (...)

I'm a fan of classic BG games, played it countless times since release 20 years ago and I'm VERY happy with this EA. So you're generalizing and you're wrong.
Building off of that, I've seen multiple posts about classic BG fans who were actively dissuaded from trying the game by rhetoric like Mr_Planescapist's here, but ended up liking the EA when they tried it. And as a 5e aficionado, I also am very happy with the EA in general.
Posted By: Icelyn Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 13/02/21 03:17 PM
Originally Posted by mr_planescapist
EA nowadays is an AMAZING marketing way to screw fans over, while at the same time give the illusion to people that they are being listened to for future developments / patches. Its just a win win solution when making a game now.
You can be SURE that Larian already knew what fans would complain about, it is incredibly OBVIOUS.

So basically fans of DOS games will be pretty happy. Fans of Baldurs gate games not so happy. And fans of D&D in general pretty unhappy. They ALL bought into EA. Money in the bank from lovers of BG3 and haters alike.
I am happy to support rpgs that look good to me in EA or Kickstarter because I know they don't make as much money as other types of games. However, if you don't like EA, just wait until full release to get a game, as it says on the BG3 steam page.
Posted By: Boblawblah Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 13/02/21 05:02 PM
Originally Posted by Seraphael
Originally Posted by LukasPrism
Pretty sure it’s not industry standard to tease announcements for an event to reveal an EA patch. New titles or expansions, yes. Considering we’ve paid full price to be part of this EA experience, having the only real communications come in the form of trumpeted events is a huge let-down, and not how Larian have done it historically either.
You left out you actually paid the full price for the full game. Playing early, getting an opportunity to influence the development even in the slightest, while also supporting a good up-and-coming developer is what you get back for paying early. Feeling hugely let down by somewhat lackluster communication just as Larian announce another panel event speaks more about entitlement issues than any failing on Larian's part imo.

that word has lost all meaning. "omg, you paid for a product and expect something? You're sooo entitled" It's ridiculous. Yes, technically we don't have any "right" to know what's going on behind the scenes, but yikes, a lot of EAs pride themselves on this idea that "hey, we're building the game while you watch" kind of vibe, which includes communication like "Hey, here is our weekly update about what we're working on". It's not entitled to be disappointed when that doesn't happen. It's like if most of the Mcdonalds you visit let you have free refills and suddenly one doesn't, you're not entitled for being disappointed. You're just disappointed, and that's OKAY, just as it's okay for that Mcdonalds not to give you free refills.
Posted By: etonbears Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 13/02/21 09:26 PM
Certainly some developers ( paradox comes to mind ) are much more active in providing blogs and other ongoing communications/soliciting feedback, even when they have not taken your money.

Apparently having nobody tasked with community engagement during a full-priced EA, with no real notion of duration, is probably not a good look.
Posted By: LukasPrism Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 14/02/21 07:56 PM
Originally Posted by Boblawblah
that word has lost all meaning. "omg, you paid for a product and expect something? You're sooo entitled" It's ridiculous. Yes, technically we don't have any "right" to know what's going on behind the scenes, but yikes, a lot of EAs pride themselves on this idea that "hey, we're building the game while you watch" kind of vibe, which includes communication like "Hey, here is our weekly update about what we're working on". It's not entitled to be disappointed when that doesn't happen.

Exactly this. Larian is benefiting hugely from this EA process. We’re all paying volunteers here. A little communication from Larian isn’t too much to ask. At least a running list of known issues or acknowledgment of areas they’re addressing would go a long way so we’re not all talking around in circles. They want my feedback? My feedback is I would politely request that they communicate with us more, just like they used to and other studios using EA do.
Posted By: Anfindel Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 15/02/21 08:35 PM
Originally Posted by LukasPrism
Originally Posted by Boblawblah
that word has lost all meaning. "omg, you paid for a product and expect something? You're sooo entitled" It's ridiculous. Yes, technically we don't have any "right" to know what's going on behind the scenes, but yikes, a lot of EAs pride themselves on this idea that "hey, we're building the game while you watch" kind of vibe, which includes communication like "Hey, here is our weekly update about what we're working on". It's not entitled to be disappointed when that doesn't happen.

Exactly this. Larian is benefiting hugely from this EA process. We’re all paying volunteers here. A little communication from Larian isn’t too much to ask. At least a running list of known issues or acknowledgment of areas they’re addressing would go a long way so we’re not all talking around in circles. They want my feedback? My feedback is I would politely request that they communicate with us more, just like they used to and other studios using EA do.

As you said VOLUNTEERS !! Nobody made anyone purchase the game in Early Access. You are a volunteer, complaining about the lack of a pay-off. You've been told volunteers will get a free party , dinner and concert at the end of the job, and are screaming because you haven't received details on what is being served, who is playing at the concert, what date it is scheduled for - and demanding your favorite dishes and bands because they are what "everyone wants".
Posted By: LukasPrism Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 15/02/21 08:52 PM
Originally Posted by Anfindel
Originally Posted by LukasPrism
Originally Posted by Boblawblah
that word has lost all meaning. "omg, you paid for a product and expect something? You're sooo entitled" It's ridiculous. Yes, technically we don't have any "right" to know what's going on behind the scenes, but yikes, a lot of EAs pride themselves on this idea that "hey, we're building the game while you watch" kind of vibe, which includes communication like "Hey, here is our weekly update about what we're working on". It's not entitled to be disappointed when that doesn't happen.

Exactly this. Larian is benefiting hugely from this EA process. We’re all paying volunteers here. A little communication from Larian isn’t too much to ask. At least a running list of known issues or acknowledgment of areas they’re addressing would go a long way so we’re not all talking around in circles. They want my feedback? My feedback is I would politely request that they communicate with us more, just like they used to and other studios using EA do.

As you said VOLUNTEERS !! Nobody made anyone purchase the game in Early Access. You are a volunteer, complaining about the lack of a pay-off. You've been told volunteers will get a free party , dinner and concert at the end of the job, and are screaming because you haven't received details on what is being served, who is playing at the concert, what date it is scheduled for - and demanding your favorite dishes and bands because they are what "everyone wants".

You’ve obviously never done any real volunteering or managed volunteers in your life. Communication is absolutely essential.
Posted By: Warlocke Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 15/02/21 09:49 PM
I’m really not sure what it is you people feel that you need to be communicated to you.

You want to know exactly what Larian is working on? Not going to happen. In AAA development there are two many moving parts. Larian would constantly need to walk back their statements as features get reimagined, retooled, and pushed back.

You want to know broadly what Larian is working on in a very general sense? Why? For what purpose?
Posted By: Scribe Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 15/02/21 09:54 PM
Originally Posted by Warlocke
You want to know broadly what Larian is working on in a very general sense? Why? For what purpose?

So we know we didn't drop 60 bucks to talk into a void over an alpha test?
Posted By: Warlocke Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 15/02/21 09:59 PM
Originally Posted by Scribe
Originally Posted by Warlocke
You want to know broadly what Larian is working on in a very general sense? Why? For what purpose?

So we know we didn't drop 60 bucks to talk into a void over an alpha test?

What does that mean?

You dropped $60 to purchase a game that you know Larian is working on.

You paid it early to allow Larian to collect your data and read your feedback and make changes to the product before full release.

We already know that they are implementing changes based on feedback based on the last patch.

So what do you mean when you say you are afraid that you are talking into a void?
Posted By: LukasPrism Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 15/02/21 10:01 PM
Originally Posted by Warlocke
I’m really not sure what it is you people feel that you need to be communicated to you.

You want to know exactly what Larian is working on? Not going to happen. In AAA development there are two many moving parts. Larian would constantly need to walk back their statements as features get reimagined, retooled, and pushed back.

You want to know broadly what Larian is working on in a very general sense? Why? For what purpose?

OK here’s an example – there’s a (possibly infamous) thread in here which has just been promoted to megathread status on party movement – almost 500 comments since Tuco posted it four months ago. A simple ‘it’s in the pipeline’ or even ‘we hear you' from Larian would go a long way. Just take a skim of it and get a sense of the frustration involved and the resentment brewing. It would be so easy for Larian to turn that around, if they treated this forum as other studios treat their betas/EAs (even Larian themselves for DOS).
Posted By: marajango Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 15/02/21 10:27 PM
Originally Posted by Warlocke
Larian would constantly need to walk back their statements as features get reimagined, retooled, and pushed back.
See? You have already provided interesting topics to keep us in the loop on how and why the game is shaping up the way it is going to be or not going to be. How much they want to go into detail is up to them. I don't need to know every secret hidden room that eventually didn't make it into the game. I also don't need to know about experimental features that aren't even playable at the moment.
But I would like to know what their reasons where to change something that was already implemented in Early Access, for example, or what they are still being unsure about. They could also talk about the currently hottest topics on the forums, to maybe cool the flames here and there or provide another topic people could talk about and get an idea of how people feel about certain things.
They could also just put a stop to certain discussions that are running in circles infinitely because there is nothing in sight on how Larian is going to move on with the game. It feels like everyone and their mother have discussed back and forth about things like combat, how much DnD 5e should be in the game, how much homebrew should be and so on.
They already have a wonderful tool in their hands, a direct line of communication between them and their customers and fans. The only thing they would need to do is use it. If they actually care about feedback, that is, and don't just have a forum for the sake of having a forum and ignore it.
Just being a bit more transparent about their design and production process doesn't mean they would have to play with all cards open.
Posted By: Scribe Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 15/02/21 11:09 PM
Originally Posted by Warlocke
Originally Posted by Scribe
Originally Posted by Warlocke
You want to know broadly what Larian is working on in a very general sense? Why? For what purpose?

So we know we didn't drop 60 bucks to talk into a void over an alpha test?

What does that mean?

You dropped $60 to purchase a game that you know Larian is working on.

You paid it early to allow Larian to collect your data and read your feedback and make changes to the product before full release.

We already know that they are implementing changes based on feedback based on the last patch.

So what do you mean when you say you are afraid that you are talking into a void?

Every mega thread should have had official responses from a community manager/dev type, at a minimum.
Posted By: Anfindel Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 16/02/21 06:23 AM
Originally Posted by LukasPrism
Originally Posted by Anfindel
Originally Posted by LukasPrism
Originally Posted by Boblawblah
that word has lost all meaning. "omg, you paid for a product and expect something? You're sooo entitled" It's ridiculous. Yes, technically we don't have any "right" to know what's going on behind the scenes, but yikes, a lot of EAs pride themselves on this idea that "hey, we're building the game while you watch" kind of vibe, which includes communication like "Hey, here is our weekly update about what we're working on". It's not entitled to be disappointed when that doesn't happen.

Exactly this. Larian is benefiting hugely from this EA process. We’re all paying volunteers here. A little communication from Larian isn’t too much to ask. At least a running list of known issues or acknowledgment of areas they’re addressing would go a long way so we’re not all talking around in circles. They want my feedback? My feedback is I would politely request that they communicate with us more, just like they used to and other studios using EA do.

As you said VOLUNTEERS !! Nobody made anyone purchase the game in Early Access. You are a volunteer, complaining about the lack of a pay-off. You've been told volunteers will get a free party , dinner and concert at the end of the job, and are screaming because you haven't received details on what is being served, who is playing at the concert, what date it is scheduled for - and demanding your favorite dishes and bands because they are what "everyone wants".

You’ve obviously never done any real volunteering or managed volunteers in your life. Communication is absolutely essential.

Actually, volunteers are told do this, put this there, be here at such time.

They are not told the program budget, hiring plans, proposed programmatic changes, time lines for proposed changes - and they have NO input into such areas.

People keep demanding Larian run EA the way they believe it should be run - Larian has absolutely NO duty to respond in a fashion you or I deem proper - they get to respond if and when they choose to, in the manner they choose to. This is 100% their choice.

Your choice and mine was solely the chose to participate in EA -

Our choice now is to communicate our opinions and viewpoints, or not.
Posted By: Warlocke Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 16/02/21 07:43 AM
Originally Posted by LukasPrism
Originally Posted by Warlocke
I’m really not sure what it is you people feel that you need to be communicated to you.

You want to know exactly what Larian is working on? Not going to happen. In AAA development there are two many moving parts. Larian would constantly need to walk back their statements as features get reimagined, retooled, and pushed back.

You want to know broadly what Larian is working on in a very general sense? Why? For what purpose?

OK here’s an example – there’s a (possibly infamous) thread in here which has just been promoted to megathread status on party movement – almost 500 comments since Tuco posted it four months ago. A simple ‘it’s in the pipeline’ or even ‘we hear you' from Larian would go a long way. Just take a skim of it and get a sense of the frustration involved and the resentment brewing. It would be so easy for Larian to turn that around, if they treated this forum as other studios treat their betas/EAs (even Larian themselves for DOS).

It’s kind of funny that you post that thread. The first comment in that thread was from me voicing my agreement with the OP because of problems with how the game handled jumping. The last patch specifically changed party jumping in a way that resolved my complaint. I don’t need a Larian rep to come in and assure me that my problem specifically would be addressed. They have said multiple times that they read the comments, iterate on their game design, and implement where they can, and I’ve seen this demonstrated.

Now there is nothing wrong wishing Larian communicated more often. Their perceived lack of response doesn’t bother me, but this is in line with what I have always seen on all of the official game forums I have visited (which isn’t very much) so I don’t expect anything more.

The thing I butt up against is the idea of people being bitter, resentful and frustrated by this. Why? It would be one thing if this was a beta for a multiplayer game, where constant developer feedback is absolutely necessary to maintain the active, constant player base, but that isn’t this game. You don’t need to be constantly engaged with this game and so Larian isn’t trying to keep you constantly engaged. If you have already played 200 hours repeating the first chapter of a roughly 100 hour rpg then get a new hobby. Play another game. Read a book. Learn to paint. I say this as somebody who has put almost 200 hours into the game, and hasn’t bought a new game since.

You people are demanding that Larian not only continue to make the game, but to keep you engaged and entertained while they do it. Why? Just be patient and do something else.

“But I payed to be in the EA!”

And you got hours of (hopefully) entertainment from a game that is a year out from full release. You aren’t owed anything else.

Edit: I’m responding to my own hypothetical invented quote here, not you specifically, Lukas.
Posted By: Warlocke Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 16/02/21 08:04 AM
Originally Posted by marajango
Originally Posted by Warlocke
Larian would constantly need to walk back their statements as features get reimagined, retooled, and pushed back.
See? You have already provided interesting topics to keep us in the loop on how and why the game is shaping up the way it is going to be or not going to be. How much they want to go into detail is up to them. I don't need to know every secret hidden room that eventually didn't make it into the game. I also don't need to know about experimental features that aren't even playable at the moment.
But I would like to know what their reasons where to change something that was already implemented in Early Access, for example, or what they are still being unsure about. They could also talk about the currently hottest topics on the forums, to maybe cool the flames here and there or provide another topic people could talk about and get an idea of how people feel about certain things.
They could also just put a stop to certain discussions that are running in circles infinitely because there is nothing in sight on how Larian is going to move on with the game. It feels like everyone and their mother have discussed back and forth about things like combat, how much DnD 5e should be in the game, how much homebrew should be and so on.
They already have a wonderful tool in their hands, a direct line of communication between them and their customers and fans. The only thing they would need to do is use it. If they actually care about feedback, that is, and don't just have a forum for the sake of having a forum and ignore it.
Just being a bit more transparent about their design and production process doesn't mean they would have to play with all cards open.

I think you misunderstood my point. We don’t need to be in the loop, and Larian doesn’t need to keep us constantly engaged in this forum. If people are at each others’ throats and talking around each other in circles that is their problem, not Larian’s. I just find the very fundamental premise that Larian is responsible for managing people’s expectations and level of engagement in this way a bit ridiculous.

I only ever see studios provide this level of community engagement if they:

A) are making some sort of multiplayer game that needs a certain volume of constant players to maintain viability
B) it is a really small studio that needs to assure its backers that it is still actually making the game and not dicking around.

That isn’t to say there aren’t exceptions to this generalization, but I’ve visited a bunch of different game forums pre-launch over the years and the level of engagement I see here doesn’t strike at all as atypical.

Anyway, typical or not, this it how it is. I simply don’t understand being frustrated by it. We know they read the forum (as they have already made adjustments to the game based on feedback). We will eventually know what is in the new patch and what they have been implementing very soon. Why it is in any way incumbent upon them to tell us what they are doing in the interim is beyond me. I know they are working on the game. Why isn’t that enough for you?

If they did tell people what they were doing some would still melodramatically protest and bicker anyway, regardless of whatever they do, simply because it’s the internet.
Posted By: marajango Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 16/02/21 04:59 PM
Originally Posted by Warlocke
I think you misunderstood my point. We don’t need to be in the loop, and Larian doesn’t need to keep us constantly engaged in this forum. If people are at each others’ throats and talking around each other in circles that is their problem, not Larian’s. I just find the very fundamental premise that Larian is responsible for managing people’s expectations and level of engagement in this way a bit ridiculous.
That is correct, they don't need to be active or engaging with us, or even moderating on the forums. But doing so wouldn't hurt them either and could even improve the discussions being held on the forums.


Originally Posted by Warlocke
I’ve visited a bunch of different game forums pre-launch over the years and the level of engagement I see here doesn’t strike at all as atypical.

This might be correct as well, but "not being atypical" doesn't mean that it's good.

Originally Posted by Warlocke
Why it is in any way incumbent upon them to tell us what they are doing in the interim is beyond me. I know they are working on the game. Why isn’t that enough for you?
Simple: people are different. What might be good enough for you, isn't automatically good enough for the rest of the world. And every person you meet in life might have different standards of how good or bad something is or has been, whether being it your boss about your job performance, your teacher about your grades, your parents about your freetime activities, or your partner about how little you talk to each other.

Originally Posted by Warlocke
If they did tell people what they were doing some would still melodramatically protest and bicker anyway, regardless of whatever they do, simply because it’s the internet.
Following this reasoning you could simply abandon any type or form of PR because your argument is so broad-brush it could be applied to literally anything. So no reason even talking to anybody in life because there will always be someone protesting or bickering about what you say.

I haven't been around when they were workin on DoS2, but what I do hear a lot is how much more active and engaging they were back then. And now that they have way more money and resources at their disposal I am actually surprised that people are suddenly holding them to a lower standard than what they were used to.
Posted By: gaymer Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 26/04/21 02:43 PM
Time to bump this. We were told over 2 months ago at Patch 4 release that they improved their coding and programming and would make subsequent patches easier and faster.

Now we wait to see if the time for Patch 5 actually takes longer than Patch 4, which was over 90 days.
Posted By: spectralhunter Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 26/04/21 02:50 PM
Originally Posted by gaymer
Time to bump this. We were told over 2 months ago at Patch 4 release that they improved their coding and programming and would make subsequent patches easier and faster.

Now we wait to see if the time for Patch 5 actually takes longer than Patch 4, which was over 90 days.

At this point I don’t really believe anything Larian promises. I do think it is best they just stay quiet if they have no intention of making changes or don’t want feedback.
Posted By: mrfuji3 Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 26/04/21 03:21 PM
This was my estimated timeline as of March 19
Originally Posted by mrfuji3
Launch: Oct 6, 2020
Patch 2: Oct 27, 2020 (3 weeks after Patch 1=Launch)
-- Bug fixes & cinematic tweaks, "75% of you stood with Tieflings...Good outweighs evil." Nothing significant in this patch.
Patch 3: Dec 2, 2020 (5 weeks after Patch 2, 8 weeks since launch)
-- Pacifism, companion behavior, party auto-jump, 2 short rests, rebalanced cantrips.
Patch 4: Feb 25, 2020 (12 weeks after Patch 3, 20 weeks since launch)
--Druid Class, loaded dice, target portraits, various dialogue and story changes (unmentioned in Patch notes)


Going forward
We need the 5 remaining classes: Barbarian, Bard, Monk, Paladin, Sorcerer. These classes should be easier than the Druid, so let's estimate ~8 weeks each. 5x8=40 weeks
We might be getting the remainder of Act 1. Let's say this patch, on its own, will add 15 weeks.
We need the 2-4(?) remaining companions. These can probably be released as patches between and/or with the above patches.
Let's be a bit generous and add another 10 weeks for extra miscellaneous stuff to be added, another 10 weeks for final testing and polishing, and then another 10 weeks for delays due to flooding.

40+15+10+10+10=85 weeks from Feb 25
Release: October 13, 2022
Total Time in EA: slightly over 2 years
Patch 5: ...waiting (currently 8.5 weeks after Patch 4, 28.5 weeks since launch)
According to my estimate, we are behind schedule for adding a new class. But if the next patch comes in the next 6 weeks and includes the remainder of Act 1 and/or 2 classes, then we'll still be on schedule.
Posted By: DragonSnooz Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 26/04/21 03:44 PM
Originally Posted by gaymer
Time to bump this. We were told over 2 months ago at Patch 4 release that they improved their coding and programming and would make subsequent patches easier and faster.

Now we wait to see if the time for Patch 5 actually takes longer than Patch 4, which was over 90 days.
I'm expected an 80 day gap before patch 5. On-boarding new employees is promising, but they usually need to be brought up to speed. After patch 5 is a more realistic timeline to see quicker patch releases.
Posted By: Maximuuus Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 26/04/21 03:58 PM
There's a lot of activity on steamdb since last week. Not sure it really mean something but to be honnest I expected patch 5 last week.

I hope this one is the one.
Posted By: mrfuji3 Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 26/04/21 04:05 PM
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
There's a lot of activity on steamdb since last week. Not sure it really mean something but to be honnest I expected patch 5 last week.

I hope this one is the one.
I feel like when people start posting about a lot of activity on steamdb, then the next patch comes out a few weeks afterward. So 3-4 weeks until patch 5!
Posted By: Saito Hikari Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 27/04/21 01:03 AM
One needs to note that Solasta's full launch is happening at the end of May. Releasing Patch 5 on the same week would be in pretty bad form.

At the same time, Pathfinder WotR Beta phase 2 is happening in a week and a half from now as well. Also releasing a patch on that week would also be in bad form, but it'll affect far less people as only a handful of people such as myself have beta access to begin with. I imagine WotC would actually encourage that kind of thing to kneecap Pathfinder hype, but given that we've had zero word on the patch in general, it's unlikely to be anytime within the next two weeks.

My bet is that if a patch is happening anytime soon, it's either going to be in mid-May or mid-June.
Posted By: Scribe Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 27/04/21 04:53 PM
Originally Posted by Saito Hikari
One needs to note that Solasta's full launch is happening at the end of May. Releasing Patch 5 on the same week would be in pretty bad form.

At the same time, Pathfinder WotR Beta phase 2 is happening in a week and a half from now as well. Also releasing a patch on that week would also be in bad form, but it'll affect far less people as only a handful of people such as myself have beta access to begin with. I imagine WotC would actually encourage that kind of thing to kneecap Pathfinder hype, but given that we've had zero word on the patch in general, it's unlikely to be anytime within the next two weeks.

My bet is that if a patch is happening anytime soon, it's either going to be in mid-May or mid-June.

Patching or Updates to hurt competition is pretty normal behavior. Blizzard has strangled many a game release this way.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 27/04/21 08:20 PM
Originally Posted by Saito Hikari
One needs to note that Solasta's full launch is happening at the end of May. Releasing Patch 5 on the same week would be in pretty bad form.
Why? O_o
If they have something to show, i dont see any reason to keep it for themselves, just bcs "some other game will be showing something" at same time ... :-/
Posted By: CJMPinger Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 27/04/21 08:25 PM
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by Saito Hikari
One needs to note that Solasta's full launch is happening at the end of May. Releasing Patch 5 on the same week would be in pretty bad form.
Why? O_o
If they have something to show, i dont see any reason to keep it for themselves, just bcs "some other game will be showing something" at same time ... :-/

I think it'd mainly to avoid competing or seem like they are competing? Though I think most people wouldn't see it as competing and more like "Woah, more D&D content, woo!"
Posted By: 1varangian Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 27/04/21 09:11 PM
At this point it seems the EA is just there for marketing and creating hype until full release. Whenever things quiet down, they will release a new class to get things going again. Press will write articles, players will start new playthroughs and streamers will stream.

It's smart marketing but I'm disappointed by the complete lack of communication from Larian. Many players are giving well thought out feedback with valid concerns. But it seems like they do what they like (which is mostly Divinity even though this is supposed to be D&D) and have their own internal testing for actual feedback.

The game is mechanically looking to disappoint both DOS fans and D&D fans, and would be interesting to hear which way they are going to salvage the gameplay. Or if it will remain a half baked hybrid to somewhat satisfy as many people as possible, without being great for anyone. Like what happened to Dragon Age, pretty but shallow repetitive gameplay and riding mostly on storytelling and characters. Probably some market research also shows that players who don't care about a mechanical challenge are in the minority and most just want to experience the story. That would explain why AAA games like DA:I play so badly.

I wonder if there will be a backlash if they neuter the D&D gameplay further in the name of video gaming.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 27/04/21 09:30 PM
Originally Posted by gaymer
Time to bump this. We were told over 2 months ago at Patch 4 release that they improved their coding and programming and would make subsequent patches easier and faster.

Now we wait to see if the time for Patch 5 actually takes longer than Patch 4, which was over 90 days.


Where?
Posted By: Maximuuus Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 27/04/21 09:58 PM
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by gaymer
Time to bump this. We were told over 2 months ago at Patch 4 release that they improved their coding and programming and would make subsequent patches easier and faster.

Now we wait to see if the time for Patch 5 actually takes longer than Patch 4, which was over 90 days.


Where?

The guy in the tent at the beginning, if I remember well.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 27/04/21 10:16 PM
Oh yeah ... that was retorical question ... its on 21:40 i was expecting that when i use specific-time link, it would start play in time ... not from the beginning. -_-
Well, at least im learning here ...

Anyway, it seem to me like he is only talking about making patches smaller, but im kinda missing anything about them being faster or more often. O_o

Originally Posted by CJMPinger
I think it'd mainly to avoid competing or seem like they are competing? Though I think most people wouldn't see it as competing and more like "Woah, more D&D content, woo!"
Well, i gues its matter of point of view, as usualy ...
But i would rather to seem like competing ... than seem like being affraid of competition. :-/
Posted By: Alexandrite Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 27/04/21 10:32 PM
And what's wrong with the story riding on characters and storytelling, exactly?

I suppose I never played tabletop D&D (never had the opportunity) but mucking around with dice, rules and game mechanics is not my favourite thing to do. Yes I'm likely in the minority here, but I personally love this game for its characters, visuals and storytelling. I'm definitely itching for a patch to come out, but it will be ready when it's ready. I'd rather the patch be somewhat polished and not broken.
Posted By: Tarlonniel Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 27/04/21 11:50 PM
Originally Posted by Alexandrite
Yes I'm likely in the minority here, but I personally love this game for its characters, visuals and storytelling.

I'm all about storytelling and characters in video games, and quality visuals are a nice bonus. I throw mechanics out the nearest window. It would be interesting to see Larian's stats on how many people played DOS2 in the various difficulty modes.
Posted By: Sabra Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 28/04/21 02:08 AM
Originally Posted by Alexandrite
And what's wrong with the story riding on characters and storytelling, exactly?

Yes I'm likely in the minority here, but I personally love this game for its characters, visuals and storytelling.

I don't think you're in the minority. Plenty of us are here for the story and characters. smile
Posted By: Anfindel Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 28/04/21 02:45 AM
Originally Posted by Sabra
Originally Posted by Alexandrite
And what's wrong with the story riding on characters and storytelling, exactly?

Yes I'm likely in the minority here, but I personally love this game for its characters, visuals and storytelling.

I don't think you're in the minority. Plenty of us are here for the story and characters. smile

Speak for yourselves.

I'm here for the entertainment value in watching certain people moan, groan and bitch that EA doesn't meet their definition of EA, and that the final game wasn't released 6 months ago.
Posted By: Sabra Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 28/04/21 03:21 AM
Originally Posted by Anfindel
Speak for yourselves.

I'm here for the entertainment value in watching certain people moan, groan and bitch that EA doesn't meet their definition of EA, and that the final game wasn't released 6 months ago.

Well if we're talking about why we're on the forums, then yes I'm mostly here for the trainwreck lol...
Posted By: GM4Him Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 28/04/21 03:51 AM
Honestly, I don't mind the wait IF they actually give us some of the things we're really out here asking for.

We didn't really ask for druid so much, but we got it. I like druid and all, but it would have been nicer to get things we REALLY asked for.

At the very least, we need more communication from Larian. What are they doing? ARE they really taking out feedback and putting it into the game?
Posted By: Saito Hikari Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 28/04/21 08:41 AM
Originally Posted by Scribe
Patching or Updates to hurt competition is pretty normal behavior. Blizzard has strangled many a game release this way.

It's one thing for Blizzard to do it to other MMOs.

It's another thing entirely if both games are ultimately derived from the same core franchise. WotC probably wouldn't like that very much, and Larian likely would stay out of Solasta's way as it's being made by a much smaller studio and Larian actually DID contribute to their kickstarter too, so there's that. That, and there's literally no sign of BG3 being fully launched within the next full year (nor should anyone hope for anything sooner), so there's little point to the kneecapping anyway.

Though I imagine WotC would fully encourage something like that for whenever Pathfinder WotR gets released, since it's part of the one property that is in direct competition with DnD. I'm actually 100% expecting a major patch to drop on the same week as WotR's full launch.
Posted By: Nyloth Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 28/04/21 09:59 AM
Originally Posted by Alexandrite
And what's wrong with the story riding on characters and storytelling, exactly?

I suppose I never played tabletop D&D (never had the opportunity) but mucking around with dice, rules and game mechanics is not my favourite thing to do. Yes I'm likely in the minority here, but I personally love this game for its characters, visuals and storytelling. I'm definitely itching for a patch to come out, but it will be ready when it's ready. I'd rather the patch be somewhat polished and not broken.

I'm with you. If character or story bored I dont care how cool gameplay, I just drop it.

Originally Posted by Tarlonniel
I'm all about storytelling and characters in video games, and quality visuals are a nice bonus. I throw mechanics out the nearest window. It would be interesting to see Larian's stats on how many people played DOS2 in the various difficulty modes.

I'm still trying to finish DOS2 on tactics at least once, but it's very difficult for me, probably because my brain can't think of a way like "take 200 barrels with you" or "wow, can I throw a huge box if use telekinesis". So when I find out here that people carry barrels with them, I just..... O_O what
Posted By: Ixal Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 28/04/21 12:12 PM
Originally Posted by Saito Hikari
Though I imagine WotC would fully encourage something like that for whenever Pathfinder WotR gets released, since it's part of the one property that is in direct competition with DnD. I'm actually 100% expecting a major patch to drop on the same week as WotR's full launch.

Careful. In that specific competition I fully expect Pathfinder to win.
Posted By: Saito Hikari Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 28/04/21 03:11 PM
Originally Posted by Ixal
Careful. In that specific competition I fully expect Pathfinder to win.

Being in the beta myself, I'm in full agreement. It's shaping up to be the best RTwP game I've ever played (though I generally play it with a mix of RTwP for easier fights and switch on turn-based mode for major boss fights), the music is consistently sublime, and the companions have turned out to be my overall favorite cast of party members in any game I've played as well. It's probably going to have the same effect on revitalizing the RTwP scene as DOS2 did for turn-based games.
Posted By: Scribe Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 28/04/21 05:31 PM
Originally Posted by Saito Hikari
Originally Posted by Ixal
Careful. In that specific competition I fully expect Pathfinder to win.

Being in the beta myself, I'm in full agreement. It's shaping up to be the best RTwP game I've ever played (though I generally play it with a mix of RTwP for easier fights and switch on turn-based mode for major boss fights), the music is consistently sublime, and the companions have turned out to be my overall favorite cast of party members in any game I've played as well. It's probably going to have the same effect on revitalizing the RTwP scene as DOS2 did for turn-based games.

Sounds awesome. I had been looking at it, will probably pick it up.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 28/04/21 08:59 PM
Its suppose to rain whole next week in middle Europe ...
Maybe it will cause a minor flood ... and you know what flood means for Larian. :P laugh
Posted By: Boblawblah Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 28/04/21 09:54 PM
Originally Posted by Saito Hikari
Originally Posted by Ixal
Careful. In that specific competition I fully expect Pathfinder to win.

Being in the beta myself, I'm in full agreement. It's shaping up to be the best RTwP game I've ever played (though I generally play it with a mix of RTwP for easier fights and switch on turn-based mode for major boss fights), the music is consistently sublime, and the companions have turned out to be my overall favorite cast of party members in any game I've played as well. It's probably going to have the same effect on revitalizing the RTwP scene as DOS2 did for turn-based games.

are the companions actually likable or at least are there a variety of them for evil/good players?
Posted By: Saito Hikari Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 29/04/21 04:55 AM
Originally Posted by Boblawblah
are the companions actually likable or at least are there a variety of them for evil/good players?

There's quite the variety of them. 11 to be exact. All with wildly different priorities, but the game's writing somehow makes it very plausible that they're all working together in a hellscape, even if they have entirely different agendas. Some companions are really deep, but it's rather subtle at it.

Like the Hellknight Regill, who is probably the absolute best representation of a Lawful Evil companion I've ever seen thus far. I came into the beta thinking I would HATE him, but now he's actually one of my favorite companions. At first glance he's a typical authoritative stormtrooper, but it turns out that's not a very accurate assessment of what he actually is, for it becomes clear throughout the game that he leans way more into his pragmatic side instead of wielding his authority just for the sake of being an asshole. Even though he definitely can, he knows the value of restraint, especially when it comes to holding back to learn as much as he can from an enemy commander before he'll completely kick their ass anyway. His introduction DOES involve killing injured comrades who he would view as stragglers... But given the situation he is in, it makes sense, for staying back in an attempt to defend and save them would have resulted in some of the remaining capable fighters falling under the same fate, if not his entire regiment being lost.

The other companion I thought I would hate, Daeran, is... Well, for a lack of a better description, he's basically what Astarion would be like if he was born into a major noble house wielding massive political influence, had a super tragic event happen in his childhood that basically changed his outlook on the meaning of life forever, and yet still manages to have some sense of actual standards deep beneath all the hedonism and cynicism - more astute people will notice he does not punch down when he goes out of his way to insult people, he only ever seems to go after people with authority that he perhaps believes aren't deserving of it. (Hence why Daeran is neutral evil rather than full on chaotic evil like Astarion appears to be. And he basically starts off as being a pure healer, yet he uses his talents and his noble status to figure out what makes people tick, so to speak.) Compare him to the other noble, Camelia (in which she would be... extreme spoilers to elaborate even further), and it's pretty much night and day.

There's also Greybor, who by contrast is an Assassin, but otherwise he's actually a rather normal dwarven father making a living out of professional contract killing in order to provide for his family. Well, comparatively normal in the context of the rest of the party, at least. The rest of the party tends to make their jobs and backgrounds/characteristics a core part of their identity. Greybor stands out because he doesn't, outside of a serious sense of professionalism that comes with his job.

The thing that really sets WotR's companions apart, even if they aren't as openly deep or philosophical as the likes of BG3, is that you get a good sense of what they are through very indirect means. And by that, I mean lots and lots of party banter. And they will often respond to each other, instead of only reacting to the player character. In the game's hub areas throughout the chapters, you often see the companions positioned in places that make sense given their personalities and backstories, like Sosiel painting at various locales depending on the time of day, Greybor brooding in a corner of the tavern awaiting new contracts, Seelah training new recruits, and so on.

Some of their companion quests also don't actually feature anything related to violence at all (compared to something like DOS2 where you basically shanked someone every step of the way for every companion), which would be very surprising given the game's setting and overall themes. Chapter 3 of WotR in particular is pretty much 60% companion quests and 40% main quest, with one companion even getting three quests in there.

Someone could literally make a very in-depth relationship chart between the WotR companions, and it would actually be a lot more complex than just pairing the companions with similar alignment. For one, make a note of which party members insult Ember, and who otherwise leave her alone or even respect her. The results are not what most people would expect if you are going off of the alignment wheel alone, and it's a very subtle way of adding depth to each companion.
Posted By: Scribe Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 29/04/21 05:53 AM
Well...I'm sold.

Good luck Larian, enjoy my $70, you'll never see another penny from me
Posted By: ash elemental Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 29/04/21 12:29 PM
Originally Posted by Saito Hikari
Being in the beta myself, I'm in full agreement. It's shaping up to be the best RTwP game I've ever played (though I generally play it with a mix of RTwP for easier fights and switch on turn-based mode for major boss fights), the music is consistently sublime, and the companions have turned out to be my overall favorite cast of party members in any game I've played as well. It's probably going to have the same effect on revitalizing the RTwP scene as DOS2 did for turn-based games.
Hopefully Owlcat has improved on their bugtesting, though, considering the PK release. Last year they've released the game on consoles, and it was apparently quite buggy too. I'd rather they take more time, seems like WotR was in development for a relatively short time.
Posted By: Saito Hikari Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 29/04/21 03:21 PM
Originally Posted by ash elemental
Hopefully Owlcat has improved on their bugtesting, though, considering the PK release. Last year they've released the game on consoles, and it was apparently quite buggy too. I'd rather they take more time, seems like WotR was in development for a relatively short time.

Well, they seem serious about catching bugs this time. While not much has changed between Kingmaker and WotR on the surface level, they apparently made a lot of backend changes to their coding to make it easier to prevent and fix bugs, especially in regards to how the game recognizes event flags now. There was also originally going to be one alpha testing phase and one beta testing phase, but they decided to open up a second phase for both. Phase 2 for WotR Beta actually starts next Wednesday.

Now that I think about it, Alpha phase 1 actually began an entire year ago. The game's been in development since late 2019 I think.

Owlcat was originally targeting June 2021 for full launch. That's clearly not happening anymore, and as good as the beta was, it got really buggy near the end of the beta build and needs a lot of extra time in the oven. I think full launch will be pushed back to end of September, which would be the 3 year anniversary of Kingmaker's launch. If not even longer than that.
Posted By: Tarlonniel Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 29/04/21 11:45 PM
Originally Posted by ash elemental
Hopefully Owlcat has improved on their bugtesting, though, considering the PK release.

I hope they've hired a better copy editor; the English translation of Kingmaker was... not top tier. Yes, I'm one of the five people who care about such things.

At this rate we'll get WotR before patch 5.
Posted By: gaymer Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 03/05/21 09:30 PM
Originally Posted by Tarlonniel
Originally Posted by ash elemental
Hopefully Owlcat has improved on their bugtesting, though, considering the PK release.

I hope they've hired a better copy editor; the English translation of Kingmaker was... not top tier. Yes, I'm one of the five people who care about such things.

At this rate we'll get WotR before patch 5.

Patch 5 is looking to take longer than Patch 4 at this point. And I wonder if it will be hyped as THE BIGGEST PATCH SO FAR again.

In addition to 5 classes being missing, there are also subclasses missing from existing classes. There are also abilities that NPCs and enemies have that should be enabled for PCs.
Posted By: Saito Hikari Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 03/05/21 09:36 PM
Originally Posted by gaymer
Patch 5 is looking to take longer than Patch 4 at this point. And I wonder if it will be hyped as THE BIGGEST PATCH SO FAR again.

In addition to 5 classes being missing, there are also subclasses missing from existing classes. There are also abilities that NPCs and enemies have that should be enabled for PCs.

It's been about 2 months. Judging from the current lack of any information at all, the earliest that patch 5 may happen will probably cross the 3 month timeline, which would make it on par with patch 4 - and right into Solasta's full release window too.

Now that I think about it, Larian's been pretty radio silent lately, compared to before. Could mean big things are coming in this upcoming patch.
Posted By: Alexandrite Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 03/05/21 09:36 PM
Well, if Patch 5 is bigger than patch 4, then yes it will be "the biggest patch so far". :P
I'm definitely hoping for more of the missing classes to be added.
Posted By: Nyloth Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 03/05/21 10:53 PM
Originally Posted by Alexandrite
Well, if Patch 5 is bigger than patch 4, then yes it will be "the biggest patch so far". :P
I'm definitely hoping for more of the missing classes to be added.

I don't think it will be bigger, because after 3 months we got one class. I think that again in 3 months we will get 1 class or maybe a new 1 new companion. Or we'll get an update in the summer.
Posted By: Tarlonniel Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 03/05/21 11:39 PM
There's another patch 4 hotfix being worked on, apparently, which is not good news for patch 5. If the latter was near release, I assume they'd just be rolling the former into it.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 04/05/21 08:43 AM
Maybe they are strugling with some things ...
Personaly i cant quite imagine how they want to implement Paladin with this "automatic reactions" system. :-/
Posted By: Tuco Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 04/05/21 09:49 AM
Originally Posted by Tarlonniel
There's another patch 4 hotfix being worked on, apparently, which is not good news for patch 5. If the latter was near release, I assume they'd just be rolling the former into it.
Also, given that Larian didn't even start to tease about the fifth patch, we must be at least weeks away from its release.
Posted By: Abits Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 04/05/21 03:42 PM
Originally Posted by Saito Hikari
Originally Posted by Boblawblah
are the companions actually likable or at least are there a variety of them for evil/good players?

There's quite the variety of them. 11 to be exact. All with wildly different priorities, but the game's writing somehow makes it very plausible that they're all working together in a hellscape, even if they have entirely different agendas. Some companions are really deep, but it's rather subtle at it.

Like the Hellknight Regill, who is probably the absolute best representation of a Lawful Evil companion I've ever seen thus far. I came into the beta thinking I would HATE him, but now he's actually one of my favorite companions. At first glance he's a typical authoritative stormtrooper, but it turns out that's not a very accurate assessment of what he actually is, for it becomes clear throughout the game that he leans way more into his pragmatic side instead of wielding his authority just for the sake of being an asshole. Even though he definitely can, he knows the value of restraint, especially when it comes to holding back to learn as much as he can from an enemy commander before he'll completely kick their ass anyway. His introduction DOES involve killing injured comrades who he would view as stragglers... But given the situation he is in, it makes sense, for staying back in an attempt to defend and save them would have resulted in some of the remaining capable fighters falling under the same fate, if not his entire regiment being lost.

The other companion I thought I would hate, Daeran, is... Well, for a lack of a better description, he's basically what Astarion would be like if he was born into a major noble house wielding massive political influence, had a super tragic event happen in his childhood that basically changed his outlook on the meaning of life forever, and yet still manages to have some sense of actual standards deep beneath all the hedonism and cynicism - more astute people will notice he does not punch down when he goes out of his way to insult people, he only ever seems to go after people with authority that he perhaps believes aren't deserving of it. (Hence why Daeran is neutral evil rather than full on chaotic evil like Astarion appears to be. And he basically starts off as being a pure healer, yet he uses his talents and his noble status to figure out what makes people tick, so to speak.) Compare him to the other noble, Camelia (in which she would be... extreme spoilers to elaborate even further), and it's pretty much night and day.

There's also Greybor, who by contrast is an Assassin, but otherwise he's actually a rather normal dwarven father making a living out of professional contract killing in order to provide for his family. Well, comparatively normal in the context of the rest of the party, at least. The rest of the party tends to make their jobs and backgrounds/characteristics a core part of their identity. Greybor stands out because he doesn't, outside of a serious sense of professionalism that comes with his job.

The thing that really sets WotR's companions apart, even if they aren't as openly deep or philosophical as the likes of BG3, is that you get a good sense of what they are through very indirect means. And by that, I mean lots and lots of party banter. And they will often respond to each other, instead of only reacting to the player character. In the game's hub areas throughout the chapters, you often see the companions positioned in places that make sense given their personalities and backstories, like Sosiel painting at various locales depending on the time of day, Greybor brooding in a corner of the tavern awaiting new contracts, Seelah training new recruits, and so on.

Some of their companion quests also don't actually feature anything related to violence at all (compared to something like DOS2 where you basically shanked someone every step of the way for every companion), which would be very surprising given the game's setting and overall themes. Chapter 3 of WotR in particular is pretty much 60% companion quests and 40% main quest, with one companion even getting three quests in there.

Someone could literally make a very in-depth relationship chart between the WotR companions, and it would actually be a lot more complex than just pairing the companions with similar alignment. For one, make a note of which party members insult Ember, and who otherwise leave her alone or even respect her. The results are not what most people would expect if you are going off of the alignment wheel alone, and it's a very subtle way of adding depth to each companion.
The companions are pretty much the only thing WotR has going for it story wise. Don't get me wrong, it's a big deal and they are the best cast I've seen in years in a RPG, but it's a shame they are stuck in such a bad story.
Posted By: Saito Hikari Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 04/05/21 05:43 PM
Perhaps, but I guess that’s the nature of directly adapting a tabletop module. People said the same thing about tabletop Kingmaker, and the game actually did turn out pretty decent because Owlcat filled in a ton of plot holes themselves, and now their changes are considered canon with the updated module.

The companions really sell these games. Owlcat really knows how to write characters that actually feel like they’re part of the setting and legitimately care about what’s actually happening, instead of being largely self absorbed and only caring about the player.

I was legitimately surprised to see that scene with Lann’s mother for one. She should be proud of her son being the most busted archer companion I’ve ever seen, a tank archer to hold off back line ambushes is a pretty novel idea. They even animated a little hug. smile

I hope they do Iron Gods next. I’ve only heard good things about that module.
Posted By: Ixal Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 04/05/21 11:26 PM
Originally Posted by Saito Hikari
I hope they do Iron Gods next. I’ve only heard good things about that module.

Hm, not sure if Iron Gods is mainstream enough for a video game

Many people do not like to much technology or even scifi in their fantasy
Still, it could be worse (Reign of Winter. Certainly interesting but I guess many people will dislike the strange direction it takes).

I still hope for a Starfinder spinoff.
Posted By: Saito Hikari Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 06/05/21 03:43 AM
Originally Posted by Tarlonniel
I hope they've hired a better copy editor; the English translation of Kingmaker was... not top tier. Yes, I'm one of the five people who care about such things.

At this rate we'll get WotR before patch 5.

Funny you mention this.

Beta part 2 had a big surprise for me - there are a lot more lines voice acted now. Considering WotR is several degrees larger and with way more dialogue than most cRPGs save for Kingmaker, that's a tremendous amount of effort. But the voice acting also means the writing is also set in stone, so I'd hope they are really sure about the quality of their writing this time around.

Also WotR is clearly in the optimization phase as well. Beta phase 1 was a bit choppy for me. Beta phase 2 runs smooth as butter in comparison.
Posted By: gaymer Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 11/05/21 03:45 PM
Another week of no news. We are headed toward 90 days soon, the longest between any patch.
Posted By: PolyHeister Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 11/05/21 04:40 PM
Well I hope they bring big changes that are good and game changing such as dnd mode, then it will be worth the wait.
Posted By: andreasrylander Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 11/05/21 05:30 PM
Originally Posted by PolyHeister
Well I hope they bring big changes that are good and game changing such as dnd mode, then it will be worth the wait.

We can hope, but... I am not so sure about that.
Posted By: sublimeclown Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 13/05/21 03:33 PM
Anyone else notice that Larian changed their Twitter headline to "Larian Studios, nuanced dungeon master". Do you think it means anything?
Posted By: Sigi98 Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 13/05/21 03:43 PM
Originally Posted by sublimeclown
Anyone else notice that Larian changed their Twitter headline to "Larian Studios, nuanced dungeon master". Do you think it means anything?

They had that since hotfix #10, where they said, quote, 'We've made nuanced changes to the loaded dice...' , so I think its just a joke.
Posted By: Nyloth Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 13/05/21 04:30 PM
Originally Posted by PolyHeister
Well I hope they bring big changes that are good and game changing such as dnd mode, then it will be worth the wait.

don't expect too much or you will be disappointed
Posted By: Tuco Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 13/05/21 07:19 PM
Hey, I expect nothing and I'm still ready to be disappointed anyway.

Originally Posted by Saito Hikari
Beta part 2 had a big surprise for me - there are a lot more lines voice acted now. Considering WotR is several degrees larger and with way more dialogue than most cRPGs save for Kingmaker, that's a tremendous amount of effort.
It's so noticeable and there is SO MUCH MORE of it voice acted right now, that I'm honestly starting to wonder why not to go the extra mile and make the entire game voiced.
I know they already said it would cost too much for them and I know paying voice actors is expensive in general, but I can't help but wonder if it wouldn't be worth at this point, with them already basically being half the way there.

It's not even an increase in costs that comes without a payoff on its own, after all. Fully voiced games are far more likely to be picked and played by streamers these days (because let's face it, no matter how motivated and "fine with reading" someone can be, when you are basically expected to read any single line of dialogue to your audience it's shit that gets tiring very fast) and with some random luck involved the right streamers playing your game can even increase sales significantly.

It will also make the inevitable late console port far easier to market. Traditional computer RPGs are never big sellers in their console version in general, but the ones that aren't even fully voiced are pretty much no-starters-
Posted By: Icelyn Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 13/05/21 11:10 PM
I am excited for the next patch! Even if the things I wish for most are not in the upcoming patch, there is always the patch after that. smile There most likely will at least be a new class, which I will have fun playing.
Posted By: Uberwilhelm Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 13/05/21 11:47 PM
In all reality, all I want is to finally be able to progress past lvl 4. I have reached the "bored from repetition" stage and basically just keep checking in from time to time with fingers crossed. Any word or rumors of an ETA for this yet?
Posted By: gaymer Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 13/05/21 11:59 PM
Originally Posted by Uberwilhelm
In all reality, all I want is to finally be able to progress past lvl 4. I have reached the "bored from repetition" stage and basically just keep checking in from time to time with fingers crossed. Any word or rumors of an ETA for this yet?

Last update with the Hotfix #11 said they will be back soon*** with a community update. Meanwhile, it is going on the longest gap between patches but we had to have 11-and-counting hotfixes for Patch 4 with still plenty of bugs.

At this point, who knows.
Posted By: Tarlonniel Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 18/05/21 01:07 PM
There are now two Patch 5's in the Steam database, EA Patch 5 and Main Patch 5. Larian's just messing with us at this point. crazy
Posted By: Alexandrite Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 18/05/21 01:25 PM
Originally Posted by Tarlonniel
There are now two Patch 5's in the Steam database, EA Patch 5 and Main Patch 5. Larian's just messing with us at this point. crazy

I know! I wonder which Patch 5 will win?! :P
Posted By: IrenicusBG3 Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 19/05/21 12:42 AM
Maybe they are saving for E3
Posted By: Saito Hikari Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 19/05/21 05:08 AM
Yeah, at this point it sounds more like they're just going to shadowdrop the patch immediately after some kind of presentation (most likely E3), and it's definitely not going to be this month. I remember the rage over the launch of the previous patch, particularly over everyone's differing definitions of the word 'soon' (although there was a near universal agreement that 'soon' being more than a week is pretty out there).

On the bright side, for those of you who have Gamepass, it turns out Solasta is going to be available there during the full launch next Thursday too. You can pass the time with that. :P
Posted By: Blackheifer Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 19/05/21 05:42 AM
Originally Posted by Saito Hikari
Yeah, at this point it sounds more like they're just going to shadowdrop the patch immediately after some kind of presentation (most likely E3), and it's definitely not going to be this month. I remember the rage over the launch of the previous patch, particularly over everyone's differing definitions of the word 'soon' (although there was a near universal agreement that 'soon' being more than a week is pretty out there).

On the bright side, for those of you who have Gamepass, it turns out Solasta is going to be available there during the full launch next Thursday too. You can pass the time with that. :P

Having played Solasta I can now say its absolute trash. The camera controls alone are shameful. The story is absolute nonsense. Its linear. The Music is clearly public domain or ripped off from other games. It has no multiplayer. The game graphics are basic. The controls are non-intuitive.

Its absolutely shocking to me that anyone has the audacity to mention that game in the same breath as BG3 and not feel shame. Yuck.

I am going to play it for as long as I can stand it and make notes on what an awful game it is.

But hey, maybe they did a good job on reactions. I am sure that makes up for the terribleness of every other aspect of it.

Edit: Oh look at that, and my save file was corrupted when I tried to load the game just now. Requesting refund.
Posted By: Scribe Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 19/05/21 05:58 AM
BTW when you uninstall, you get a nice survey to inform them of the multiple reasons why.

Perhaps 'poor update communication' should be on the list.
Posted By: CJMPinger Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 19/05/21 06:08 AM
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
Originally Posted by Saito Hikari
Yeah, at this point it sounds more like they're just going to shadowdrop the patch immediately after some kind of presentation (most likely E3), and it's definitely not going to be this month. I remember the rage over the launch of the previous patch, particularly over everyone's differing definitions of the word 'soon' (although there was a near universal agreement that 'soon' being more than a week is pretty out there).

On the bright side, for those of you who have Gamepass, it turns out Solasta is going to be available there during the full launch next Thursday too. You can pass the time with that. :P

Having played Solasta I can now say its absolute trash. The camera controls alone are shameful. The story is absolute nonsense. Its linear. The Music is clearly public domain or ripped off from other games. It has no multiplayer. The game graphics are basic. The controls are non-intuitive.

Its absolutely shocking to me that anyone has the audacity to mention that game in the same breath as BG3 and not feel shame. Yuck.

I am going to play it for as long as I can stand it and make notes on what an awful game it is.

But hey, maybe they did a good job on reactions. I am sure that makes up for the terribleness of every other aspect of it.

It is mentioned cause it went out to achieve the same thing, implementing the 5e ruleset as a videogame, and from people have said, it seems it has succeeded on that front. People keep mentioning how BG3 mechanics should be more like Solasta's, indicating in spite of the things you mentioned, it is doing game mechanics part right. BG3 however, for most, seems to do presentation right and while the current characters are divisive, the story is considered interesting enough with its initial hook. I forget where I read it, but a user commented that if BG3's presentation and Solasta's mechanics combined, that would be the best DnD game ever. That is why people keep mentioning it, that said, this is all second hand knowledge based on comments.
Posted By: Maximuuus Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 19/05/21 06:10 AM
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
Originally Posted by Saito Hikari
Yeah, at this point it sounds more like they're just going to shadowdrop the patch immediately after some kind of presentation (most likely E3), and it's definitely not going to be this month. I remember the rage over the launch of the previous patch, particularly over everyone's differing definitions of the word 'soon' (although there was a near universal agreement that 'soon' being more than a week is pretty out there).

On the bright side, for those of you who have Gamepass, it turns out Solasta is going to be available there during the full launch next Thursday too. You can pass the time with that. :P

Having played Solasta I can now say its absolute trash. The camera controls alone are shameful. The story is absolute nonsense. Its linear. The Music is clearly public domain or ripped off from other games. It has no multiplayer. The game graphics are basic. The controls are non-intuitive.

Its absolutely shocking to me that anyone has the audacity to mention that game in the same breath as BG3 and not feel shame. Yuck.

I am going to play it for as long as I can stand it and make notes on what an awful game it is.

But hey, maybe they did a good job on reactions. I am sure that makes up for the terribleness of every other aspect of it.

20 developpers wink

The control non intuitive, the shamefull camera control... don't make me laugh, if it's not good (it is), it's even worse in BG3.

So are the musics but it's only a matter of taste. I find them way more epic and engaging but I admit that I'm not a huge fan of Borislav.

No one has ever claimed that the story is very deep/interresting in Solasta or that the graphics are awesome. Usually that's exactly why players loves BG3 better.

But when it comes to combatd... BG3 looks like a brainless tactical game for children.
Posted By: CJMPinger Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 19/05/21 06:13 AM
Originally Posted by Scribe
BTW when you uninstall, you get a nice survey to inform them of the multiple reasons why.

Perhaps 'poor update communication' should be on the list.

I haven't ever uninstalled, can you tell me and anyone else who is curious (but not curious enough to uninstall) what options are listed? And is there an OTHER option where you can write the reason?
Posted By: Maximuuus Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 19/05/21 06:14 AM
Today is THE day !
Posted By: Blackheifer Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 19/05/21 06:40 AM
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
20 developpers wink

The control non intuitive, the shamefull camera control... don't make me laugh, if it's not good (it is), it's even worse in BG3.

So are the musics but it's only a matter of taste. I find them way more epic and engaging but I admit that I'm not a huge fan of Borislav.

No one has ever claimed that the story is very deep/interresting in Solasta or that the graphics are awesome. Usually that's exactly why players loves BG3 better.

But when it comes to combatd... BG3 looks like a brainless tactical game for children.

Solasta is a D&D simulator for a single person. You know there are companies that make those if you just want to do that all day. Probably cost less.

And its insultingly linear. I mean, hey I get it - some people need that linear kind of game that tells them to go from A to B to C - otherwise they get confused and end up with their underwear on their head and a ham sandwiched stuffed in their pants.

I love the tactical combat of BG3 personally. I am sorry you have such a hard time with encounters. I posted a list on Reddit for top ten mistakes you are making in BG3, you should check it out. Its great for new players.

But listen, I think its probably a great game for Philistines...I mean If Music, Art, Immersion and Story are things that just puzzle you anyway...
Posted By: Maximuuus Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 19/05/21 07:09 AM
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
20 developpers wink

The control non intuitive, the shamefull camera control... don't make me laugh, if it's not good (it is), it's even worse in BG3.

So are the musics but it's only a matter of taste. I find them way more epic and engaging but I admit that I'm not a huge fan of Borislav.

No one has ever claimed that the story is very deep/interresting in Solasta or that the graphics are awesome. Usually that's exactly why players loves BG3 better.

But when it comes to combatd... BG3 looks like a brainless tactical game for children.

Solasta is a D&D simulator for a single person. You know there are companies that make those if you just want to do that all day. Probably cost less.

And its insultingly linear. I mean, hey I get it - some people need that linear kind of game that tells them to go from A to B to C - otherwise they get confused and end up with their underwear on their head and a ham sandwiched stuffed in their pants.

I love the tactical combat of BG3 personally. I am sorry you have such a hard time with encounters. I posted a list on Reddit for top ten mistakes you are making in BG3, you should check it out. Its great for new players.

But listen, I think its probably a great game for Philistines...I mean If Music, Art, Immersion and Story are things that just puzzle you anyway...

I don't have any hardtimes with combats... Combats in BG3 are a joke my 10 years daughter could handle after reading your list for 5 minutes.

Only unfair ennemies or solo playthrough are "a bit" challenging.

20 devs with 240k $ cannot create a story or graphics as engaging as 300+ people with millions of $. It's only a matter of money.

That's a bit obvious but ofc you have to consider the context and the gameplay/the mechanics more than the graphics / story to understand why Solasta 2 is gonna be a 1.000.000 dollar game.

On many things BG3 is better but this small indie game contain things that works way better than this AAA.
Posted By: Etruscan Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 19/05/21 07:41 AM
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
I love the tactical combat of BG3 personally. I am sorry you have such a hard time with encounters. I posted a list on Reddit for top ten mistakes you are making in BG3, you should check it out. Its great for new players.

Genuine question, what do you find tactical about combat in BG3?

Personally I found it repetitive and almost solely based around jumping behind your enemies or gaining high ground for advantage and/or shoving. Buff/debuff spells are almost obsolete because Larian believes the playerbase thinks they are boring and want fireworks everywhere.
Posted By: Blackheifer Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 19/05/21 07:45 AM
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
I don't have any hardtimes with combats... Combats in BG3 are a joke my 10 years daughter could handle after reading your list for 5 minutes.

Only unfair ennemies or solo playthrough are "a bit" challenging.

20 devs with 240k $ cannot create a story or graphics as engaging as 300+ people with millions of $. It's only a matter of money.

That's a bit obvious but ofc you have to consider the gameplay/the mechanics more than the graphics / story to understand why Solasta 2 is gonna be a 1.000.000 dollar game.

On many things BG3 is better but this small indie game contain things that works way better than this AAA.

I mean Solasta has sold 100k to 200k copies. So that means its made about 8 Million (assuming high end), minus steam fees. But that means its a super niche game, with not a lot of broad appeal. Most people want a bit more sizzle with their steak. But I think there are a core group of rule-focused D&D fanatics who don't value storytelling who will love it.

https://steamspy.com/app/1096530

As opposed to BG3 which has sold 2-5 Million copies...so far. Or $120 Million (assuming low end) minus steam fees. Has much broader appeal, has a social aspect to it (Multi), has a huge mod community who are ready to go. The potential for long term content with BG3 is HUGE. Custom Modules, exporting characters, etc etc.. BG3 has the potential to be the Game of the Decade.
I am excited.

https://steamspy.com/app/1086940


If they just fixed the Camera control in Solasta, it would make the game 10 times better. It's ridiculous. Lots of people have complained about it, but also unlike Larian they don't listen to player feedback, even a little.
Posted By: Maximuuus Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 19/05/21 08:06 AM
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
I don't have any hardtimes with combats... Combats in BG3 are a joke my 10 years daughter could handle after reading your list for 5 minutes.

Only unfair ennemies or solo playthrough are "a bit" challenging.

20 devs with 240k $ cannot create a story or graphics as engaging as 300+ people with millions of $. It's only a matter of money.

That's a bit obvious but ofc you have to consider the gameplay/the mechanics more than the graphics / story to understand why Solasta 2 is gonna be a 1.000.000 dollar game.

On many things BG3 is better but this small indie game contain things that works way better than this AAA.

I mean Solasta has sold 100k to 200k copies. So that means its made about 8 Million (assuming high end), minus steam fees. But that means its a super niche game, with not a lot of broad appeal. Most people want a bit more sizzle with their steak. But I think there are a core group of rule-focused D&D fanatics who don't value storytelling who will love it.

https://steamspy.com/app/1096530

As opposed to BG3 which has sold 2-5 Million copies...so far. Or $120 Million (assuming low end) minus steam fees. Has much broader appeal, has a social aspect to it (Multi), has a huge mod community who are ready to go. The potential for long term content with BG3 is HUGE. Custom Modules, exporting characters, etc etc.. BG3 has the potential to be the Game of the Decade.
I am excited.

https://steamspy.com/app/1086940

If they just fixed the Camera control in Solasta, it would make the game 10 times better. It's ridiculous. Lots of people have complained about it, but also unlike Larian they don't listen to player feedback, even a little.

I agree that the potential of BG3 is MASSIVE. 100%.
And multiplayer is obviously a part of it.

Add BG3's graphics, multiplayer mode, a few more interraction with the environment, a deeper story and real companions to Solasta and it is not a "niche" game anymore. It's potential is also very good and the foundations are extremely strong for next games.

The differences you're tallking about included how it sold only comes from the size of the project and the money available. Not combats mechanics or the rules implementations/deviations.

BG3's combats are a bit brainless because it's all about the OP mechanics inside Larian's box rather than the tons of creativity allowed by the D&D box.

Ofc you may have a better experience in MP if you're playing with players that aren't the best, if you try to solo'd the game or if you don't use Larian's cheeses..

But that's a poor tactical solo game that only rely on a very limited number of OP mechanics that can be summarized in a 5 minutes to read reddit post.

And when higher difficulty levels will come we'll have to stop using the tons of D&D sub-optimal choices even more to focus on Larian's cheeses.

PS : I don't really understand your problem with the camera. From my own experience it's only a real one when you fly but anyway.
Posted By: Saito Hikari Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 19/05/21 09:03 AM
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
Solasta is a D&D simulator for a single person. You know there are companies that make those if you just want to do that all day. Probably cost less.

And its insultingly linear. I mean, hey I get it - some people need that linear kind of game that tells them to go from A to B to C - otherwise they get confused and end up with their underwear on their head and a ham sandwiched stuffed in their pants.

I love the tactical combat of BG3 personally. I am sorry you have such a hard time with encounters. I posted a list on Reddit for top ten mistakes you are making in BG3, you should check it out. Its great for new players.

But listen, I think its probably a great game for Philistines...I mean If Music, Art, Immersion and Story are things that just puzzle you anyway...

This is probably the first time I've heard about people having issues with the camera in Solasta, but I have had issues with the camera in BG3 in comparison. Though admittedly, I think your camera issues are referring to how the camera tends to go wonky if you move the camera by clicking on the map rather than normally scrolling, which is a big side effect of the verticality (and apparently nothing stopping the camera from going out of bounds via map clicking right now).

At the same time though, I've played a wide range of cRPGs, and the Larian games tend to have a different camera and overall control style than the rest that I have to spend an hour readjusting to after playing any other cRPG extensively. One could say that this is basically a litmus test to see who plays cRPGs in general, and who is only a fan of Larian cRPGs. Though one could say that BG3 actually has more verticality than say, DOS2. It arguably has even more than Solasta, but the BG3 combat mechanics in their current state make it seem more detrimental rather than adding any tactical complexity.

That said, everyone's already openly admitted that combat is really the only thing Solasta has going for it in comparison, and that's enough for people like me who understand the context and are okay with it. My main concern in regards to BG3 is that I look at the various mechanics and how the encounter balance is designed to encourage or discourage them, and I'm really not seeing how BG3 is really that tactical in its current state. The vast majority of strategies involve some variation of 'make a really really good surprise round/alpha strike', probably because the encounter balance seems to be deliberately designed under the assumption that you're always doing that to begin with, and failing to do anything meaningful in your attempt immediately causes things to go to hell in most situations. That's not tactical at all, that's just flipping the chess board and saying you won the game.

I've noted that players being able to mount an effective comeback when things go wrong is pretty rare in this game, due to a combination of being grossly outnumbered or the absurd action economy that everyone has. The comebacks I've done mostly consisted of Healing Word abuse on a downed party member, and that's a case of AI manipulation more than anything else. Maybe the phase spider fight could be an example of mounting an effective comeback, but you can't really alpha strike the phase spider fight to begin with unless you are already 100% aware of how the fight works, and you can't argue that 'destroy the webs that they are conveniently standing on' is tactical when the game straight up implies that this is what you are supposed to be doing. It's a nice setpiece mechanic, but people shouldn't be acting like they have choices in that matter or that they're any smarter than anyone else for using it.

Even without all the comparisons to tabletop DnD, the combat design is still an unbalanced mess that - let's be perfectly honest with ourselves here - would be considered completely unacceptable among most turn-based enthusiasts if it wasn't a Larian game.

(And if people look far back enough in my posting history to see when I cared enough to argue about this kind of stuff, one would notice that I barely give a damn about faithfulness to 5E rules, and far more about how the mechanics actually interact with each other. I would be in favor of changes if they were good and sensible changes to begin with, but they're clearly not at this point. And I only care about proper reactions this much because the complete lack of them is a total net loss to tactical variety and could potentially offset some of the imbalance brought about with the changes, and I have yet to hear any argument about why the lack of them is a good thing other than silly theoretical vague 'immersion!' concerns.)

Also, you seem excessively hostile over this topic for some reason. Should probably tone down the emotion there, or people will get the wrong impression and respond in kind. I mean, really, I only made an offhand comment about another cRPG being on Gamepass while we wait for the next patch. And then you went and turned it into... This.

On another topic, I saw your top 10 mistakes thread on Reddit a few days ago. So I'm going to break down what each point actually means to me.

https://old.reddit.com/r/BaldursGat...mistakes_you_are_making_in_bg3_or_how_i/

1) True Strike requires a bit of thought to use, but it's generally not worth the opportunity cost. It's mostly for removing disadvantage on yourself on the next turn, provided you are able to maintain it. It can also be argued to be a net gain for classes that get extra attack, but as we are level capped at 4, we don't get to see this for ourselves in BG3 yet. Though let's be real here, with such easy ways to gain advantage in BG3, it's worse in this game than in most traditional DnD gameplay.

2) Item-based debilitation. A common mistake, but irrelevant to this discussion at least.

3) True for all of DnD.

4) True for all of DnD. The Shadowheart example by the way needs an extra footnote - she used to have more Strength than Dexterity, before Patch 3 (or was it 4) shifted her Strength points into Dexterity so that she can actually act as an off-tank. That mace she starts with is likely getting replaced with a dagger and light crossbow later.

5) Imbalanced homebrew rule. An example of what I argue above, although this is more advantageous for the player than the enemy as currently, the enemy AI does not exploit this. But should backstabbing remain as is, and the eventual Tactican mode sees the enemy Ai upgraded to exploit it along with the bonus action jumps and disengage... What will people say then? (This has a high probability of happening, after having gone through numerous Tactican playthroughs in DOS:2. And I mean REAL Tactican with a full party, not lone wolf cheese like most of the community needs to handle that level of difficulty.)

6) Imbalanced homebrew rule. Many of us have said enough on this particular subject already.

7) True for ranged weapons not provoking opportunity attacks, but actually 100% false for shields not protecting you even with it being stowed away, at least in regards to BG3 right now. Unless the recent hotfixes changed something, your AC value currently does not change between wielding a bow VS wielding a shield and one-handed weapon in your other weapon loadout.

8) True for all of DnD.

9) Another high ground observation, with an ambush/alpha strike focus.

10) True for all of DnD, though the exact importance of darkvision is going to depend on how often we're actually going to be in dark caves in this campaign.

That said, your list can basically be broken down into three categories. Stat-based mistakes, tactical mistakes, and item-based mistakes. It's the tactical mistakes that people are focusing on, they're the ones that involve the greatest deviations from the base rules, and they're the ones with a disproportionate effect on the game's combat flow than anything else in the game for various reasons - most of all being heavily encouraging ambush/alpha strike mentality, because actually engaging with the negative aspects of these mechanics is like rowing up shit creek because you actually have to wrestle with the RNG there, and in a definitely not interesting way.
Posted By: Blackheifer Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 19/05/21 09:13 AM
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
[/quote]

I agree that the potential of BG3 is MASSIVE. 100%.
And multiplayer is obviously a part of it.

Add BG3's graphics, multiplayer mode, a few more interraction with the environment, a deeper story and real companions to Solasta and it is not a "niche" game anymore. It's potential is also very good and the foundations are extremely strong for next games.

The differences you're tallking about included how it sold only comes from the size of the project and the money available. Not combats mechanics or the rules implementations/deviations.

BG3's combats are a bit brainless because it's all about the OP mechanics inside Larian's box rather than the tons of creativity allowed by the D&D box.

Ofc you may have a better experience in MP if you're playing with players that aren't the best, if you try to solo'd the game or if you don't use Larian's cheeses..

But that's a poor tactical solo game that only rely on a very limited number of OP mechanics that can be summarized in a 5 minutes to read reddit post.

And when higher difficulty levels will come we'll have to stop using the tons of D&D sub-optimal choices even more to focus on Larian's cheeses.

PS : I don't really understand your problem with the camera. From my own experience it's only a real one when you fly but anyway.

This is something we agree on, they need to fix the cheese, and I am a big advocate of that. I don't use the cheesy stuff myself.


No jumping to disengage (unless rogue). No throwing creatures around. No barrelmancy. Shove needs to be a full action.

All three of those need to be removed and shove needs modified.

I have faith that they will address these issues given time. I would rather not depend on the mod community to fix it.

I don't know of anything else that really counts as cheese. Combat stealth feels more like a bug.

Solasta has no plans to build Multiplayer into it. The Developers have said as much. Multiplayer has to be built into a game from the ground up, to try to do it after the fact is nearly impossible and results in bad/buggy multiplayer.

The rotating camera should be controlled by the center mouse wheel by pushing it, like every other game does. You can't even re-map the keys to the mouse. You can't slow down the turn speed. Ugh.

What else do you see as cheese?
Posted By: EvilVik Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 19/05/21 09:26 AM
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
What else do you see as cheese?

Container in container and fill up with items to throw for massive damage
Throwing healing potions next to someone.

And annoying stuff like poison on ground poisons your through your boots (it's not a cloud, it's not acid).
Posted By: Blacas Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 19/05/21 10:19 AM
Trash talking Solasta on someone else's forum won't make BG3 any better.

When people highlight Solasta's good features, it's not to downgrade BG3, well hopefully.
Perhaps they also know what kept BG1 / BG2 and other games being played for two decades. And they want to have it in BG3 too.
Posted By: Nyloth Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 19/05/21 10:40 AM
Originally Posted by Blacas
Trash talking Solasta on someone else's forum won't make BG3 any better.

When people highlight Solasta's good features, it's not to downgrade BG3, well hopefully.
Perhaps they also know what kept BG1 / BG2 and other games being played for two decades. And they want to have it in BG3 too.

Are we talking about a Solasta again? Seriously? BG1 / BG2 is old games think about it. This games don't have many new players because the players ' preferences have changed. I never tired of reminding you that Solasta and Pathfinder are games that are designed for a narrower audience.

I know, I know, Maximus is going to say that some traditional things in games are still good for everyone, which is why I'm tired of you guys constantly bringing up this theme here... You all discuss the same thing over and over again. Even if BG3 needs changes, it just annoys me that you constantly discuss this in the context Solasta or DnD, think about a good video game for everyone, not just for board game lovers.
Posted By: CJMPinger Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 19/05/21 10:49 AM
I mean, I was a "new player" for BG1 and 2. Maybe they don't get "many new players" but they do get pretty loyal players that start to add up as consistent buyers.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 19/05/21 10:55 AM
I mean ... its certainly in topic to talk about Solasta once aggain. :-/
Not if that woulnt be fun watchin you be like: "A is better!" > "No, B is better!" > "A is better!" > "No, B is better!" > "A is better!" > "No, B is better!" > "A is better!" > "No, B is better!" > ...

But lets return to more pressing matters for a second, please. laugh
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Today is THE day !
What day? O_o
Posted By: Etruscan Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 19/05/21 11:17 AM
Originally Posted by Nyloth
Are we talking about a Solasta again? Seriously? BG1 / BG2 is old games think about it. This games don't have many new players because the players ' preferences have changed. I never tired of reminding you that Solasta and Pathfinder are games that are designed for a narrower audience.

I know, I know, Maximus is going to say that some traditional things in games are still good for everyone, which is why I'm tired of you guys constantly bringing up this theme here... You all discuss the same thing over and over again. Even if BG3 needs changes, it just annoys me that you constantly discuss this in the context Solasta or DnD, think about a good video game for everyone, not just for board game lovers.

Fair enough, the Solasta comparisons maybe get a little tired but BG3 by definition is based on D&D; nobody is asking for carbon copy of the tabletop game, they're asking for something that does justice to the legacy of the previous BG games and at its root is a D&D game. Plonking DOS mechanics in a D&D environment does not make it a bonafide D&D game. The original BG games might be old but they are fantastic ones at that and BG3 could learn a lot from them. Technically speaking the old BG games do have 'new players, or at least recent ones, because of the Extended Editions, opening up the games to the iOS and tablet market.

BG3 is the same kind of party based CRPG as Solasta/Pathfinder, so really the target audiences are the same if not very similar. Having fancy cinematics will no doubt appeal to a broader audience but at their roots they are the same kind of game. BG3 is not necessarily going to appeal to people who are not RPG fans.
Posted By: Icelyn Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 19/05/21 12:20 PM
Solasta's and Pathfinder's target audience is a much narrower one than BG3. They can still be successful with a smaller target audience because they also have a smaller budget.

For myself I am only currently interested in BG3 of the 3. From what I have read Solasta has weak characters and story, and choices don't impact the story. Pathfinder's characters look interesting, but it lacks cinematic dialogue, which is important to me, and also has harsh resting penalties, which is a big negative to me.

Originally Posted by IrenicusBG3
Maybe they are saving for E3
A good guess! smile
Posted By: Blacas Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 19/05/21 12:25 PM
Discriminating and rejecting ideas and arguments based on their origin (or age) is not "fair enough". It is a mark of totalitarism. However I am not the one arguing about Solasta specifically.
Anyways, my reply to an aggressive post intended to stress out that 1- it does not help BG3 get a better content, 2- it may be detrimental to Larian's image as this is posted on their own forum. And I did it because I tend to appreciate what the involved parties usually post on this forum.
Posted By: vometia Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 19/05/21 01:20 PM
Oh, do we have another Solasta topic...?

<_<
Posted By: Boblawblah Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 19/05/21 01:57 PM
META: if you're going to prohibit all mention of Solasta, just be upfront about it. Hinting that further mention of it will bring down the moderator hammer just muddies the water. It's true that people can get a little heated when discussing other games but it's not as if discussing Solasta as it compares to BG3 is inherently bad.
Posted By: alice_ashpool Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 19/05/21 02:18 PM
Originally Posted by Boblawblah
META: if you're going to prohibit all mention of Solasta, just be upfront about it. Hinting that further mention of it will bring down the moderator hammer just muddies the water. It's true that people can get a little heated when discussing other games but it's not as if discussing Solasta as it compares to BG3 is inherently bad.
i think people are just joking that due to the preferences of vocal posters every topic becomes a Solasta topic sooner or later. Which is funny.

I played Solasta all the way through in the end, it was ok but had nothing I wanted in a 2021 roleplaying game and certainly nothing that would compel me to post endlessly about for months on a message board, but that's part of the joke.
Posted By: Tuco Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 19/05/21 02:23 PM
Pathfinder Kingmaker sold over a million copies and led to the development of a (now imminent) sequel that promises to be "bigger an better" in everything, despise being conceived as a low budget crowdfunded "BG2 spiritual successor" from an unknown Russian developer.
If anything it's the embodiment of a surprise success story.
Solasta has probably a fraction of the Kingmaker's budget.

BG1 and BG2 themselves were ANYTHING BUT an attempt to appeal to "niche audiences" for their time. In fact they were both massive success stories and are often pointed as arguably THE games that introduced high budget and production value in a "genre for nerds" and made it shiny.
Well, outside of the Ultima series, which had the "minor" inconvenient of being basically dead by then, coming from some of its worst chapters and having a history of hefty hardware requirements that made it just for enthusiasts.

If we put aside having a FAR bigger budget, which automatically puts it on a league of its own, there's nothing BG3 is doing over Kingmaker or Wrath fo the Righeous that can be argued to be more or less suited for a "mainstream appeal" from a design standpoint.
And most of the recurring talking points on this forum about the issues BG3 should address have hardly anything to do with its appeal (or lack of it) for a "causal audience". In fact they tend to be the sort of minute details, so to speak, that a causal audience will hardly even hear about or even notice, until pointed to them.
Does anyone SERIOUSLY think that if Larian introduced a control scheme that doesn't kill small lab animals at every use or addressed some of the "quirky" oddities in their implementation of D&D rules, the casual audience would be disappointed and leave?
Like, REALLY? Can anyone argue it with a straight face and making a coherent point?

Trying to leverage the lame "ad populum" appeal with "But if they change things they lose the big market" strikes me as fairly disingenuous, at best.
Posted By: vometia Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 19/05/21 02:30 PM
Originally Posted by Boblawblah
META: if you're going to prohibit all mention of Solasta, just be upfront about it. Hinting that further mention of it will bring down the moderator hammer just muddies the water. It's true that people can get a little heated when discussing other games but it's not as if discussing Solasta as it compares to BG3 is inherently bad.

Not sure what "meta" means in this context, but nah, if I was going to prohibit it I would've said so. It's not quite at the RTwP, no TB, no, your mum level yet.

Originally Posted by alice_ashpool
i think people are just joking that due to the preferences of vocal posters every topic becomes a Solasta topic sooner or later. Which is funny.

Yeah, that, pretty much. Not even 100% sure if I was joking when I said maybe it should have its own subforum!
Posted By: Blackheifer Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 19/05/21 02:31 PM
Originally Posted by Boblawblah
META: if you're going to prohibit all mention of Solasta, just be upfront about it. Hinting that further mention of it will bring down the moderator hammer just muddies the water. It's true that people can get a little heated when discussing other games but it's not as if discussing Solasta as it compares to BG3 is inherently bad.

Nobody is prohibiting anything, but it gets brought up so much it has become a meme. Its boring and boorish to hear the same thing over and over.

Its also borderline trolling. Its like comparing Filet Mignon (BG3) to a half eaten hobo hotdog you found in a dumpster that someone threw up in.

But now that I played it, I have all the snark ready to go. "But Solas.." Me: "Nope! Its crap!"

Thank god I got a refund.
Posted By: Tuco Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 19/05/21 02:57 PM
Originally Posted by Nyloth
Don't even compare then and now, people had much less choice, other tastes, other experience. Especially when you talk about BG1. It's not that simple.
I will do as I please, instead, because there's no REAL reason not to.

Quote
But compare Pathfinder and some... idk Witcher3, you can understand who works for a mass audience. If you say "it's different", I'll say "I don't care, it's still rpg".
Well ,that's irrelevant, isn't it? BG3 is NOT going to be a "Witcher 3" type of action RPG, for one, and it matches to a T the same EXACT type of CRPG experience Kingmaker and its sequel are going for, instead. Just with a far larger budget.

Quote
We can say that Larian is already making concessions in many ways, but you want everything to be only as you wish, or as it is convenient for your personal perception. Well, that doesn't sound very smart, at best.
You are just making noises without actually saying things, unless you can pinpoint with absolute precision what kind of unreasonable "not very smart" requests I'd be making, according to you.
And please, take the time to BOTH list them and point what would be unreasonable about them.

Quote
Sometimes I really want to say, "if you don't like some game, just don't play it."
Well, that would be a pretty damn stupid thing and short-sighted thing to say, which isn't even that surprising all things considered.
You also seem to completely overlook that if I only had NEGATIVE things to say about this game I wouldn't be invested in it. Or that I often comment on the things I don't like, because I want the game to the best it can be, not out of sheer antagonist.

Also, way to go into a complete unrelated tangent, given that the entire post you were quoting isn't even about the qualities or flaws of BG3 AT ALL, but it was related to questionable generic claims about the genre people made in this very thread.

P.S. I made my signature even more click-baity for your enjoyment.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 19/05/21 03:00 PM
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Posted By: Saito Hikari Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 19/05/21 03:14 PM
I like how all this started because someone couldn't resist getting a chance to sass over god damn suggesting to try something else next week to pass the time if you had Gamepass, which I'm pretty sure a good chunk of us do. Because there is no way in hell patch 5 is arriving any earlier than mid-June now.

That said, I think it's fair to point out that all this falling back to cinematics and writing does nothing but muddle the waters, because hardly anyone legit has any problem with those. Of course those have mainstream appeal. Reverse the roles a bit - would you guys actually be here if say, Pathfinder had those, and BG3 didn't? Bringing that up is a much more reductionist argument than you guys realize and says quite a lot about you individually, that you guys only care about things with flashy AAA budgets rather than the gameplay itself - when the latter is rightfully more important for some of us because all of gaming at some point in time did not have the capability to support such visuals, so we realize that it is the gameplay that makes up the core of the game.

The grievances are focused on the combat for a reason. Or are you guys going to try to argue with a straight face that things like barrelmancy and height advantage and backstab advantage are suddenly mechanics that are crucial to appealing to a mainstream audience? If so, the future of RPGs is truly dire.

(I see mirrors in this type of argument within the DA fandom, with the jump from DA: Origins to DA: Inquisition. For all the latter did to try to appeal to a mainstream audience, the former is widely considered to be the superior game by the fanbase, despite almost everything about it supposedly being a much more niche game, if we were to use the arguments in this thread as a metric.)
Posted By: Blackheifer Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 19/05/21 03:19 PM
Originally Posted by Saito Hikari
I like how all this started because someone couldn't resist getting a chance to sass over god damn suggesting to try something else next week to pass the time if you had Gamepass.

That said, I think it's fair to point out that all this falling back to cinematics and writing does nothing but muddle the waters, because hardly anyone legit has any problem with those. Of course those have mainstream appeal. Reverse the roles a bit - would you guys actually be here if say, Pathfinder had those, and BG3 didn't?

The grievances are focused on the combat for a reason. Or are you guys going to try to argue with a straight face that things like barrelmancy and height advantage and backstab advantage are suddenly mechanics that are crucial to appealing to a mainstream audience? If so, the future of RPGs is truly dire.

No, and I have made clear that I hope that Barrelmancy gets removed soon as well as:

Throwing people into other people needs a serious nerf
Shove should be a full action
Throwing potions onto people to heal them
Disengage as a bonus action only for rogues. Full action for everyone else.

But I am not making mealy-mouthed statements about some other game that has nothing to do with this one. I advocate for this because I think we are better than allowing these things into the game and in the context of this game these changes make sense.
Posted By: Maximuuus Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 19/05/21 03:20 PM
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
I agree that the potential of BG3 is MASSIVE. 100%.
And multiplayer is obviously a part of it.

Add BG3's graphics, multiplayer mode, a few more interraction with the environment, a deeper story and real companions to Solasta and it is not a "niche" game anymore. It's potential is also very good and the foundations are extremely strong for next games.

The differences you're tallking about included how it sold only comes from the size of the project and the money available. Not combats mechanics or the rules implementations/deviations.
BG3's combats are a bit brainless because it's all about the OP mechanics inside Larian's box rather than the tons of creativity allowed by the D&D box.

Ofc you may have a better experience in MP if you're playing with players that aren't the best, if you try to solo'd the game or if you don't use Larian's cheeses..

But that's a poor tactical solo game that only rely on a very limited number of OP mechanics that can be summarized in a 5 minutes to read reddit post.

And when higher difficulty levels will come we'll have to stop using the tons of D&D sub-optimal choices even more to focus on Larian's cheeses.

PS : I don't really understand your problem with the camera. From my own experience it's only a real one when you fly but anyway.

This is something we agree on, they need to fix the cheese, and I am a big advocate of that. I don't use the cheesy stuff myself.


No jumping to disengage (unless rogue). No throwing creatures around. No barrelmancy. Shove needs to be a full action.

All three of those need to be removed and shove needs modified.

I have faith that they will address these issues given time. I would rather not depend on the mod community to fix it.

I don't know of anything else that really counts as cheese. Combat stealth feels more like a bug.

Solasta has no plans to build Multiplayer into it. The Developers have said as much. Multiplayer has to be built into a game from the ground up, to try to do it after the fact is nearly impossible and results in bad/buggy multiplayer.

The rotating camera should be controlled by the center mouse wheel by pushing it, like every other game does. You can't even re-map the keys to the mouse. You can't slow down the turn speed. Ugh.

What else do you see as cheese?

I consider as "cheeses" the mechanics that totally unbalance the game's difficulty and that reduce many choices to sub-optimal choices (DnD options including spells, features, choices, creativity).
BG3 cheeses himself by cheesing DnD and Larian's layer is the only layer that really matter.

It may not be the right words but according to me the "it's all about creativity and players agency" is a bullshit marketing argument that doesn't suit BG3 at all.
At the moment you totally have to think inside the small Larian's box to handle combats rather than having to choose inside the huge DnD box.

Hope you'll understand what I mean^^

That said, I don't consider barrelmancy as a problem.
Barrelmancy is not something combats are balanced arround at all. You can solo's the game without using any barrels with almost every classes. It's an addition, a real choice for fun.
It's not fun to me but anyway, I find cool that sometimes, ennemies use them. It can create unexpected situations and I'm perfectly fine with this
(a bit less with the too huge surface effect it creates but it's a detail).

- Highground advantage + disadvantage is ont of the biggest issues. DnD's advantage/disadvantage system is interresting and offer many possibilities. In BG3, it's cheap.
I could be fine with reasonable bonuses due to highground but not if it breaks a whole concept of DnD.

- It's the same about backstab. Advantages for attacking behind could be fine but not if it only rely on exploiting the turn based system (lol they can't face me, it's my turn !) and if it break tons of possibilities. This system is even more brainless due to disengage as a bonus action.

- Disengage as a bonus action also break the whole concept of AOO which is very important for melee character.
It tone down the uniqueness of classes, spells, features and so on.

- Dipping is ridiculously easy and powerfull. +1D4 damage is an additionnal attack with a dagger / turn, +2D4 if dualwield, +1D4 damages if the target is burning. Cost : a bonus action.

- Eating pig heads during combats looks stupid in a serious game and heal spells / healing positions are close to useless because a lot of food do a better job.

- I could be fine with shove as a bonus action but it should have real consequences. It should never push your ennemies 4 meters away, you shoud never have 100% if you're hidden and it should give you a disadvantage on your action if you use it or something. Or it should just be an action. Pushing creatures in hole is a lot of fun but the fun goes down if it's something you can do 9 times out of 10.
I'm not laughing anymore when I hear the same joke over and over again.

- Surfaces are too powerfull especially because you cannot avoid damages. It's way too easy to break concentration.

- I guess it's because of EA but being able to equip a shield to all characters before the ennemy's turn is ridiculous. If that's intended, increase our AC by 2 rather than giving us this tedious possibility.

- Unlimited resting system. Players have potions to heal and features to recover a few spells (and guess what, some classes recover their spellslot after short rests).

Anyway there are a lot of issues and I'm close to sure that encounters are so poorly balanced because of such things.

That's probably the short list.

If people are talking so much about Solasta it's because those games uses the same rules and because all issues of BG3's combats don't exist in it at all
(It has other issues for a wider audience, it would be stupid not to agree with you on that one)

But what does it mean ? Thats Larian's implementation/interpretation of the rules and/or homebrew are the cause of BG3's combats issues. Nothing more, nothing less.
Posted By: Saito Hikari Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 19/05/21 03:26 PM
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
No, and I have made clear that I hope that Barrelmancy gets removed soon as well as:

Throwing people into other people needs a serious nerf
Shove should be a full action
Throwing potions onto people to heal them
Disengage as a bonus action only for rogues. Full action for everyone else.

But I am not making mealy-mouthed statements about some other game that has nothing to do with this one. I advocate for this because I think we are better than allowing these things into the game and in the context of this game these changes make sense.

Cool. Why did all of these arguments happen in this thread, again? Oh right, because you jumped on me from out of nowhere for even suggesting to try something else to pass the time if you have Gamepass, which wouldn't cost anyone here anything if they did.

That said, your last sentence is curiously worded. What exactly do you mean by 'these things'?

Think carefully before you respond, because you may notice that ever since this began, I have not made any comparisons to how things work in Solasta other than camera controls, which was a more general and neutral observation. My grievances with BG3's systems are based within the context of BG3 alone.
Posted By: gaymer Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 19/05/21 03:41 PM
We are getting to 90 days or more out without an update to the game. The only news we got is a vague sentence referencing a community update.

Sad times.
Posted By: DragonSnooz Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 19/05/21 04:10 PM
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
No, and I have made clear that I hope that Barrelmancy gets removed soon as well as:

Throwing people into other people needs a serious nerf
Shove should be a full action
Throwing potions onto people to heal them
Disengage as a bonus action only for rogues. Full action for everyone else.

But I am not making mealy-mouthed statements about some other game that has nothing to do with this one. I advocate for this because I think we are better than allowing these things into the game and in the context of this game these changes make sense.
Wait, so you only want the changes you desired before joining the forum?

Forums thrive when everyone has an open-mind. And, you might enjoy combat more with proposed changes from the opinions of others.

Baldur's Gate 3 has more potential than other cRPGs at the moment, that's a good thing. A lot of us agree that combat is the sour point of the game and needs to be changed. A lot of forum members have well-developed opinions that are similar after multiple playthroughs. It'd be good to read through the posts with an open mind.
Posted By: Saito Hikari Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 19/05/21 06:25 PM
Originally Posted by gaymer
We are getting to 90 days or more out without an update to the game. The only news we got is a vague sentence referencing a community update.

Sad times.

Yeah, at this point it’s a safe bet to say we’re not getting anything until E3 at the very earliest.

That said, I imagine this wasn’t the original plan. They probably decided to do something different that required a lot of extra work. Like maybe actually making these changes, or something unexpected. The longer people wait, the more they are going to expect.

Though I heard their offices also got flooded again recently.
Posted By: CJMPinger Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 19/05/21 08:44 PM
Honestly, I hope it is something like they chose to start to work on something super complicated like overhauling all the systems based on the feedback here, It'd definitely shut us all up for a bit before we find something else to critique heavily.
Notably, critiquing and comparing is supposed to be part of a process like this. We are supposed to look at things and say "X is not working" or "X is working good" and it is very valid for people to bring up examples of things that currently are working in another game that we feel could work in this one. And S****** is the main one of that cause it is the closest to compare with 5th Edition mechanics and concurrency. However it isn't the only one cause obviously BG1 and 2 come up often, Pathfinder is a common mentioned game, and Dragon Age occasionally pops up in conversations for doing similar things. I don't think people mentioning other games is at all bad for the EA, though notably I and some others who post a lot have gotten repetitive on the forum cause of the lack of updates addressing the things we like to focus on so I apologize if I have annoyed anyone in particular for saying the same shit or bringing up the same things because of my desire to see this game succeed.
Posted By: andreasrylander Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 19/05/21 11:08 PM
Originally Posted by CJMPinger
Honestly, I hope it is something like they chose to start to work on something super complicated like overhauling all the systems based on the feedback here, It'd definitely shut us all up for a bit before we find something else to critique heavily.
Notably, critiquing and comparing is supposed to be part of a process like this. We are supposed to look at things and say "X is not working" or "X is working good" and it is very valid for people to bring up examples of things that currently are working in another game that we feel could work in this one. And S****** is the main one of that cause it is the closest to compare with 5th Edition mechanics and concurrency. However it isn't the only one cause obviously BG1 and 2 come up often, Pathfinder is a common mentioned game, and Dragon Age occasionally pops up in conversations for doing similar things. I don't think people mentioning other games is at all bad for the EA, though notably I and some others who post a lot have gotten repetitive on the forum cause of the lack of updates addressing the things we like to focus on so I apologize if I have annoyed anyone in particular for saying the same shit or bringing up the same things because of my desire to see this game succeed.


OH hell, I sure do hope you're right about them fixing things based on feedback here =)
Posted By: Blackheifer Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 20/05/21 12:05 AM
Originally Posted by Saito Hikari
Cool. Why did all of these arguments happen in this thread, again? Oh right, because you jumped on me from out of nowhere for even suggesting to try something else to pass the time if you have Gamepass, which wouldn't cost anyone here anything if they did.

That said, your last sentence is curiously worded. What exactly do you mean by 'these things'?

Think carefully before you respond, because you may notice that ever since this began, I have not made any comparisons to how things work in Solasta other than camera controls, which was a more general and neutral observation. My grievances with BG3's systems are based within the context of BG3 alone.



No I went and tried the game you recommended and it was awful. By the by, a little weird simping for another game in these forums but whatever - if the mods don't care its not my problem.

You wasted two hours of my life (Or I wasted 2 hours listening to you). Thank fully I got a refund, but guess what? I get to make fun of you and that game now, so win.

By the way, if you would like a nice free game to keep you busy that has about as much in common as the one you recommended, see below:

https://store.steampowered.com/app/1610870/Chair_Simulator/


[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Look at you and all the fun you are having!
Posted By: Saito Hikari Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 20/05/21 12:38 AM
...Okay, you’ve officially gone off the deep end. Only one of us is getting personal. I’ve tried to be reasonable, but it’s best to cut this off now.
Posted By: Boblawblah Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 20/05/21 12:42 AM
Originally Posted by Saito Hikari
...Okay, you’ve officially gone off the deep end. I’ve tried to be reasonable, but it’s best to cut this off now.

I guess I have ammunition now. Or something. If it’s ever necessary. Which it usually isn’t.

good lord man, do you hear yourself? "ammunition"? This is a discussion forum, just don't respond if he's bothering you.

On topic: Larian loves exposure, they're for sure waiting for E3.
Posted By: Saito Hikari Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 20/05/21 12:47 AM
Some things need to get called out. Though the one minute ammunition thought was a bit much, I admit.

On a side note, it’s a bit telling that this thread is that big. The wait is driving people nuts.
Posted By: Boblawblah Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 20/05/21 12:55 AM
Originally Posted by Saito Hikari
Some things need to get called out. Though the one minute ammunition thought was a bit much, I admit.

On a side note, it’s a bit telling that this thread is that big. The wait is driving people nuts.

i think we all want the game to be awesome smile
Posted By: andreasrylander Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 20/05/21 01:15 AM
We do. For sure. This could be the most important game for me right now, I think. <3
Posted By: Saito Hikari Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 20/05/21 02:12 AM
I am kind of choosing to believe that there being no word on what's in the next patch yet means the devs are working on something several magnitudes more major than everything needed for the Druid class. Stuff like maybe our first look at proper reactions or ready actions. Not really holding my breath, but I can imagine very little that would require so much extra work, while simultaneously introducing another dimension of combat that could break things in a rather catastrophic way in terms of bugs.

Stuff like high ground/low ground and backstabs can be modded. Reactions can't.
Posted By: mtlkcs72 Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 20/05/21 06:25 AM
I hope the next patch would focus on overhauling systems community did provide the most feedback for (that could be tied nicely to the upcoming community update about how they process community feedback) and yeah, maybe first look at reactions, ready action or something similar. Would be cool.
Posted By: gaymer Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 20/05/21 07:27 AM
Originally Posted by Saito Hikari
I am kind of choosing to believe that there being no word on what's in the next patch yet means the devs are working on something several magnitudes more major than everything needed for the Druid class. Stuff like maybe our first look at proper reactions or ready actions. Not really holding my breath, but I can imagine very little that would require so much extra work, while simultaneously introducing another dimension of combat that could break things in a rather catastrophic way in terms of bugs.

Stuff like high ground/low ground and backstabs can be modded. Reactions can't.

I keep envisioning Larian taking 4+ months to release Patch 5 to the fanfare of another TRAGIC Twitch event, only to contain fixes and optimization (something that can be done in hotfix) and more stuff about RNG/dice with no new class.

And knowing Larian, that is very possible.
Posted By: mr_planescapist Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 20/05/21 07:34 AM
The lack of communication is simple.
They are going all out 100% D&D and prepared to blow us away at E3.
Posted By: Tuco Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 20/05/21 07:43 AM
Originally Posted by gaymer
Originally Posted by Saito Hikari
I am kind of choosing to believe that there being no word on what's in the next patch yet means the devs are working on something several magnitudes more major than everything needed for the Druid class. Stuff like maybe our first look at proper reactions or ready actions. Not really holding my breath, but I can imagine very little that would require so much extra work, while simultaneously introducing another dimension of combat that could break things in a rather catastrophic way in terms of bugs.

Stuff like high ground/low ground and backstabs can be modded. Reactions can't.

I keep envisioning Larian taking 4+ months to release Patch 5 to the fanfare of another TRAGIC Twitch event, only to contain fixes and optimization (something that can be done in hotfix) and more stuff about RNG/dice with no new class.

And knowing Larian, that is very possible.
I was imagining something among these lines.

I'm honestly not particularly worried about the "long wait" between patches in itself. More than anything it annoys me not knowing to what it will lead to.
"We are taking our sweet ass time to address X and Y in these ways" would be completely fine, but "BIG STREAMING SHOW FOR THE BIGGEST PATCH AND COMMUNITY UPDATE YET" only to come up with a Streaming From Hell 3 or derivates, meaning a series of awkward live gags, a list of irrelevant factoids about what aggregated data says on player habits and a series of "fixes and improvements" no one really asked for, while ignoring the ones everyone and their grandma are begging for since October 2020?
That's the nightmare fuel.
Posted By: Saito Hikari Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 20/05/21 08:44 AM
Yeah, there's a reason I held off on the poll stuff. Without any idea at all on what direction the next patch is taking, any feedback gathering is really premature at this point.
Posted By: Blackheifer Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 20/05/21 09:06 AM
Originally Posted by Tuco
I was imagining something among these lines.

I'm honestly not particularly worried about the "long wait" between patches in itself. More than anything it annoys me not knowing to what it will lead to.
"We are taking our sweet ass time to address X and Y in these ways" would be completely fine, but "BIG STREAMING SHOW FOR THE BIGGEST PATCH AND COMMUNITY UPDATE YET" only to come up with a Streaming From Hell 3 or derivates, meaning a series of awkward live gags, a list of irrelevant factoids about what aggregated data says on player habits and a series of "fixes and improvements" no one really asked for, while ignoring the ones everyone and their grandma are begging for since October 2020?
That's the nightmare fuel.

I think its just part of their culture and a way to have fun and blow off steam. Honestly, given how hard this company works I am happy for them that they are able to find so much joy in being silly.

I just hope they are getting enough work/life balance and R&R so they don't burn out.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 20/05/21 09:20 AM
Originally Posted by Tuco
"We are taking our sweet ass time to address X and Y in these ways" would be completely fine, but "BIG STREAMING SHOW FOR THE BIGGEST PATCH AND COMMUNITY UPDATE YET" only to come up with a Streaming From Hell 3 or derivates, meaning a series of awkward live gags, a list of irrelevant factoids about what aggregated data says on player habits and a series of "fixes and improvements" no one really asked for, while ignoring the ones everyone and their grandma are begging for since October 2020?
That's the nightmare fuel.
And how about "we see that some of you dont like X, but we do ... so it stays that way." ?
Since that is sentence i would also appreciate.
Posted By: Tuco Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 20/05/21 09:27 AM
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
And how about "we see that some of you dont like X, but we do ... so it stays that way." ?
Since that is sentence i would also appreciate.

In some cases would be a fairly shitty outcome, and another episode in a long series of "Larian stick to their guns only to regret it months later and/or harm the overall quality of their product", but it would at very least be some transparent communication?

Originally Posted by Blackheifer
I think its just part of their culture and a way to have fun and blow off steam. Honestly, given how hard this company works I am happy for them that they are able to find so much joy in being silly.

I just hope they are getting enough work/life balance and R&R so they don't burn out.

I find the scenario where half of the studio has to put extra work to organize a "Swen show" as a way to "have fun and blow off steam" as highly unlikely.
But even if that was somehow the case, it would still not address any other issue with their past streaming events, just give a bizarre vibe to read them.
Posted By: Blackheifer Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 20/05/21 10:02 AM
Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
I think its just part of their culture and a way to have fun and blow off steam. Honestly, given how hard this company works I am happy for them that they are able to find so much joy in being silly.

I just hope they are getting enough work/life balance and R&R so they don't burn out.

I find the scenario where half of the studio has to put extra work to organize a "Swen show" as a way to "have fun and blow off steam" as highly unlikely.
But even if that was somehow the case, it would still not address any other issue with their past streaming events, just give a bizarre vibe to read them.


I completely disagree. I think we are just are not used to companies that celebrate Art and Artistic expression like Larian does. Its so rare to have a CEO who loves gaming and is a gamer himself.

Half the company is more than a little hyperbolic, maybe 10-15 people max, project managers and execs mainly - the people whose job it is to manage the Larian brand and image.

Anyway, I get you're frustrated that we don't have an update. Maybe do some Yoga?
Posted By: Tuco Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 20/05/21 10:05 AM
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
Anyway, I get your frustrated that we don't have an update. Maybe do some Yoga?
I do (and teach) boxing for a living.
I've got plenty of ways to deal with frustration, but thanks for your concern.

Also, you seem to "get" a lot wrong, especially since I've openly stated that I'm fine with the update taking long, but don't let it take away from your enthusiasm.
Posted By: Martinoso Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 20/05/21 01:31 PM
On May 27th 2021 after a little more than 7 months in Early Access, Solasta will finally launch its 1.0 version with all the promises made during our Kickstarter Campaign! Whereas BG3 will probably be released on May 21th 2027.
Posted By: mrfuji3 Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 20/05/21 01:44 PM
Originally Posted by Martinoso
On May 27th 2021 after a little more than 7 months in Early Access, Solasta will finally launch its 1.0 version with all the promises made during our Kickstarter Campaign! Whereas BG3 will probably be released on May 21th 2027.
That's fine. BG3 is many many times larger in scope than S******, so it should take longer. I'd rather Larian take the time to properly make BG3 rather than rush it out quickly. Something something a delayed game is eventually good but a rushed game is bad forever. We definitely don't want BG3 to become a CP2077.

My optimistic estimate for BG3 is fall 2022, but a 2023 release date is also likely.
Posted By: Boblawblah Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 20/05/21 02:17 PM
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
Half the company is more than a little hyperbolic, maybe 10-15 people max, project managers and execs mainly - the people whose job it is to manage the Larian brand and image.

Anyway, I get you're frustrated that we don't have an update. Maybe do some Yoga?

sarcastic quip towards Tuco aside, I agree with you about the hype team face of Larian. You know there's a good group of coders/artists/etc actually just getting down to work shaking their heads when the hype crew comes in lol.
Posted By: Tuco Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 20/05/21 02:30 PM
I’m not worried about WHEN BG3 is going to release at all.
I’d say “Take your time and make it right “.

If anything I have more questions, doubts and worries about on which state that will happen.

P.S. and NO, I don’t fear a “Cyberpunk” either. What I’m concerned about is a game overlooking some fundamental design issues, not one releasing mutilated, broken or unplayable.
Posted By: DragonSnooz Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 20/05/21 04:34 PM
Originally Posted by Saito Hikari
Some things need to get called out. Though the one minute ammunition thought was a bit much, I admit.

On a side note, it’s a bit telling that this thread is that big. The wait is driving people nuts.
Yeah, it happened in the weeks before patch 4, everyone was antsy.

It seems the cycle is repeating itself... Larian has flooding at their office, the forum gets antsy... 4 weeks go by.
Posted By: mrfuji3 Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 20/05/21 04:55 PM
Originally Posted by DragonSnooz
Yeah, it happened in the weeks before patch 4, everyone was antsy.

It seems the cycle is repeating itself... Larian has flooding at their office, the forum gets antsy... 4 weeks go by.
In good news, Larian has a history of releasing the patch/community update 2 weeks after the initial announcement. This happened for Patch 3, 4, and arguably patch 2 (Comminity Update #9: Launch didn't specifically mention CU#10: Patch 2, but it was 2 weeks before). So...here's hoping for this Feedback Community Update next week!
Posted By: gaymer Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 20/05/21 05:39 PM
Please Larian, if you are reading this....

We do not need another streaming event for the next patch. The last one was inaudible and full of technical issues. That is time that could be spent on other things.
Posted By: Tuco Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 20/05/21 05:53 PM
I have to say that the ongoing assumption/suggestion that they will release the patch in coincidence with the upcoming E3 seems a bit of a questionable choice.

Can't think of a better moment to get your next update completely overlooked by people than overlapping it with the timing where every other big company around will be revealing their next hype things.


P.S. Completely unrelated, but recent confirmations of Firaxis having "multiple announcements ready for this year" made me impatient about XCOM 3.
Posted By: CJMPinger Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 20/05/21 05:57 PM
Honestly, it has its benefits and drawbacks. By showcasing it at E3, they do risk blending in with everything else, but they also can stand to benefit by gaining a ton of publicity and attracting people who otherwise wouldn't have known about the game cause it was normally outside of the circles they frequent. Personally, I'd just release the Patch when its done and save a trailer or demo for E3.
Posted By: Scribe Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 20/05/21 10:05 PM
Originally Posted by CJMPinger
Originally Posted by Scribe
BTW when you uninstall, you get a nice survey to inform them of the multiple reasons why.

Perhaps 'poor update communication' should be on the list.

I haven't ever uninstalled, can you tell me and anyone else who is curious (but not curious enough to uninstall) what options are listed? And is there an OTHER option where you can write the reason?

It asks why you uninstalled. I answered "It wasnt fun."

Is there a specific moment that made you want to stop playing? "All the barrels, all the non D&D content."

Please select any that apply.

Combat is too hard - Not.
Combat is too easy - Check.
I didnt enjoy the characters - Check.
The D&D content I want isnt included. - Check.
I ran out of things to do. - Not
I was lost. - Not
It doesnt meet my expectations - Check.

Do you have any feedback.

"Make it like 5e, actually use the D&D rules."
Posted By: Alexandrite Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 20/05/21 10:53 PM
Originally Posted by gaymer
Please Larian, if you are reading this....

We do not need another streaming event for the next patch. The last one was inaudible and full of technical issues. That is time that could be spent on other things.

Ugh I know I'm in the minority on this, but I would much rather take the time to READ a detailed update than have to listen to a confusing streaming video any day.
Posted By: CJMPinger Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 20/05/21 11:13 PM
I am fine with the streams and I actually enjoyed the last one, but I'd absolutely love to have a detailed list of each and every change.
Posted By: Tarlonniel Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 20/05/21 11:34 PM
Originally Posted by Alexandrite
Ugh I know I'm in the minority on this, but I would much rather take the time to READ a detailed update than have to listen to a confusing streaming video any day.

I'm with you, I much prefer a straightforward written list over combing through hours of streamed 'entertainment' to find the information I'm interested in.
Posted By: dwig Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 20/05/21 11:40 PM
Originally Posted by Alexandrite
Originally Posted by gaymer
Please Larian, if you are reading this....

We do not need another streaming event for the next patch. The last one was inaudible and full of technical issues. That is time that could be spent on other things.

Ugh I know I'm in the minority on this, but I would much rather take the time to READ a detailed update than have to listen to a confusing streaming video any day.

It probably is a minority view, but I also vastly prefer reading to watching.
Posted By: Tuco Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 20/05/21 11:46 PM
Originally Posted by CJMPinger
I am fine with the streams and I actually enjoyed the last one, but I'd absolutely love to have a detailed list of each and every change.
The user Niara had a very competent write up summarizing why a lot of people were definitely not happy with it: https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=96429&Number=757338#Post757338

Incidentally that was also more or less the time I sort of give up on my best expectations for this game and I decided to settle for way more modest outcomes.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 20/05/21 11:57 PM
Originally Posted by gaymer
Please Larian, if you are reading this....

We do not need another streaming event for the next patch. The last one was inaudible and full of technical issues. That is time that could be spent on other things.
Respectfully disagree ...
I enjoy those shows, they are funny, they are informative, and as far as i can say it seem like at least Swen is really enjoing making them. :P
Also, im a big fan of free will, so i believe that grown people should and will be able to decide what they want to do with their time. laugh

Originally Posted by Alexandrite
Ugh I know I'm in the minority on this, but I would much rather take the time to READ a detailed update than have to listen to a confusing streaming video any day.
Why it allways have to be A or B? :-/
There are patchnotes ... what else would you like? o_O
(This sounds a little agressive when i read it, but i really dont know any other words ... sory. :-/ )
Posted By: Boblawblah Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 20/05/21 11:58 PM
You're not in the minority here, but for players overall? Definitely. People seem to love having hype over substance. I'd much rather just have a boring list, or hell, I'd really like a video with a dev just going through the changes one at a time and what they're thinking currently without trying to be HYPE!!! all the time.
Posted By: Icelyn Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 21/05/21 12:02 AM
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Why it allways have to be A or B? :-/
I'll take both, too! smile
Posted By: ldo58 Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 21/05/21 04:51 PM
I want the Rain dancer back.
Posted By: mr_planescapist Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 24/05/21 06:13 AM
Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by CJMPinger
I am fine with the streams and I actually enjoyed the last one, but I'd absolutely love to have a detailed list of each and every change.
The user Niara had a very competent write up summarizing why a lot of people were definitely not happy with it: https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=96429&Number=757338#Post757338

Incidentally that was also more or less the time I sort of give up on my best expectations for this game and I decided to settle for way more modest outcomes.


As stated, a sloppy Pannel that matches a sloppy game designed for the <millions>.
It lacks direction and vision, therefore is hard to be hopeful.

One thing is amazing news. Baldurs gate 2 and the modding community still going strong.
Building new quests, new playable characters, tons of content!

Another is Pathfinder Wrath of the rightheous. Turning out to be everything BG3 should of been, minus the cringy cinematic dialogues. Soon to be released.
Posted By: gaymer Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 24/05/21 02:11 PM
Two weeks ago promised update soon**** and nothing yet. Maybe in 30 more days.
Posted By: Tuco Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 24/05/21 03:09 PM
I'm waiting for Larian people to start TEASING Patch #5 on twitter and then starting the two-weeks countdown for the public community update, followed by the actual patch MAYBE one week later.
See you in a while.
Posted By: qwerrecd42 Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 24/05/21 05:03 PM
Originally Posted by Tuco
I'm waiting for Larian people to start TEASING Patch #5 on twitter and then starting the two-weeks countdown for the public community update, followed by the actual patch MAYBE one week later.
See you in a while.

I've noticed that "soon" tends to mean a much larger period of time for video game companies running an Early Access than it does for the average person.
Posted By: Saito Hikari Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 24/05/21 09:09 PM
Originally Posted by qwerrecd42
I've noticed that "soon" tends to mean a much larger period of time for video game companies running an Early Access than it does for the average person.

Unless you're the Solasta devs, in which 'soon' usually meant 'less than a week before we announce an update that was at most 2 weeks away from releasing'. Though the devs there make it very clear that they're working within reasonable limitations and not shooting for the moon, which is a rarity in this industry.

Then again, they also might have adopted that approach because they saw quite a number of people raging about the wait for BG3's patch 4 release within their own discord, and decided they didn't want any of that business.
Posted By: Icelyn Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 24/05/21 10:56 PM
Originally Posted by Tuco
I'm waiting for Larian people to start TEASING Patch #5 on twitter and then starting the two-weeks countdown for the public community update, followed by the actual patch MAYBE one week later.
See you in a while.
E3 is June 12 to 15, so perhaps the twitter teasing for patch 5 will commence next week! celebrate
Posted By: mr_planescapist Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 25/05/21 03:15 AM
My hopes:
Game gets 2 more years of dev. For more playablr NPCs and content.
Grittier and darker, more adult game. Not just, heres <sex>now its adult. Adult THEMES and dialogues.
Revamped controls and UI.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 25/05/21 11:13 AM
Originally Posted by mr_planescapist
Grittier and darker, more adult game. Not just, heres <sex>now its adult. Adult THEMES and dialogues.
Like what?
Posted By: EvilVik Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 25/05/21 11:33 AM
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by mr_planescapist
Grittier and darker, more adult game. Not just, heres <sex>now its adult. Adult THEMES and dialogues.
Like what?

More underdark, no darkvision and lots of spores wink
Posted By: Blackheifer Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 25/05/21 11:34 AM
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by mr_planescapist
Grittier and darker, more adult game. Not just, heres <sex>now its adult. Adult THEMES and dialogues.
Like what?

Wracking my brain on this one as well.

we have:
Genocide
Torture
Cannibalism
Slavery
Whatever is going on with Volo and that Goblin.
Forced impregnation
Kidnapping
Murder
Theft
Debauchery
Alcoholism
Racism
baby eating

...Off the top of my head. I just think we have become desensitized to what constitutes 'adult'.
Posted By: Alexandrite Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 25/05/21 12:19 PM
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by mr_planescapist
Grittier and darker, more adult game. Not just, heres <sex>now its adult. Adult THEMES and dialogues.
Like what?

Wracking my brain on this one as well.

we have:
Genocide
Torture
Cannibalism
Slavery
Whatever is going on with Volo and that Goblin.
Forced impregnation
Kidnapping
Murder
Theft
Debauchery
Alcoholism
Racism
baby eating

...Off the top of my head. I just think we have become desensitized to what constitutes 'adult'.


Agreed, it's already pretty dark as it is!!
You encounter a talking brain in half a human skull on the operating table in the first 3 minutes of the game. Definitely not for kids.
Posted By: Ixal Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 25/05/21 12:43 PM
Originally Posted by Alexandrite
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by mr_planescapist
Grittier and darker, more adult game. Not just, heres <sex>now its adult. Adult THEMES and dialogues.
Like what?

Wracking my brain on this one as well.

we have:
Genocide
Torture
Cannibalism
Slavery
Whatever is going on with Volo and that Goblin.
Forced impregnation
Kidnapping
Murder
Theft
Debauchery
Alcoholism
Racism
baby eating

...Off the top of my head. I just think we have become desensitized to what constitutes 'adult'.


Agreed, it's already pretty dark as it is!!
You encounter a talking brain in half a human skull on the operating table in the first 3 minutes of the game. Definitely not for kids.

The point is probably more that you are never really thinking about those things. They are presented for a shock effect and then they are gone and never mentioned again.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 25/05/21 12:45 PM
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
Forced impregnation
Either i missed something ...
Or this is the most collorfull description of inserting tadpole i ever seen. laugh
Posted By: Alexandrite Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 25/05/21 12:53 PM
Originally Posted by Ixal
The point is probably more that you are never really thinking about those things. They are presented for a shock effect and then they are gone and never mentioned again.

To be fair, the sex only happens once in the game so far, as well. :P

Not everything on that list is a one-time occurrence, though. Well - Abdirak is definitely just there for kinky shock value.
But the Tiefling refugees are pretty traumatised about their experiences, and you hear several different NPCs' perspectives. So you do pause to think about their stories as they're presented several times.
Racism is mentioned or implied in various conversations, especially if you are a Drow or a Tiefling.
Astarion's 200 years of slavery have clearly left their mark on him - figuratively and literally.
There is no way to have a happy ending for Mayrina's story, and she implies she is going to Baldur's Gate so you may encounter her there again. In fact several NPCs mention this, so we aren't seeing the last of many of them.
I'm sure the more the game keeps going, the more messed up and dramatic the issues and resulting choices will become.
Posted By: Blackheifer Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 25/05/21 01:01 PM
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
Forced impregnation
Either i missed something ...
Or this is the most collorfull description of inserting tadpole i ever seen. laugh

I was thinking in terms of Ridley Scotts Alien.

A lot has been written about the symbolism behind things like this.

https://www.vice.com/en/article/qvdn4d/alien-is-sci-fi-horrors-most-feminist-movie-franchise

https://screenrant.com/alien-movie-chestburster-sexual-assault-meaning/
Posted By: DragonSnooz Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 25/05/21 03:49 PM
Originally Posted by mr_planescapist
My hopes:
Game gets 2 more years of dev. For more playablr NPCs and content.
Grittier and darker, more adult game. Not just, heres <sex>now its adult. Adult THEMES and dialogues.
Revamped controls and UI.
Improved controls and UI, that's the content adults are looking for ;-)
Posted By: CJMPinger Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 25/05/21 08:32 PM
On Adult themes, not talking about NSFW stuff, we have elements of the fear of the loss of self, the question of the worth of power, the question of evil doing good and good doing evil, the worth of isolationism vs helping refugees, and even discussions of taboo topics like the worth of selling one's soul.
Posted By: AlrikFassbauer Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 25/05/21 09:43 PM
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by mr_planescapist
Grittier and darker, more adult game. Not just, heres <sex>now its adult. Adult THEMES and dialogues.
Like what?

Wracking my brain on this one as well.

we have:
Genocide
Torture
Cannibalism
Slavery
Whatever is going on with Volo and that Goblin.
Forced impregnation
Kidnapping
Murder
Theft
Debauchery
Alcoholism
Racism
baby eating

...Off the top of my head. I just think we have become desensitized to what constitutes 'adult'.


It is a very widespread common - and very dumb - misconception to believe that

"adult" = grim

however, this is not so.

"Adult" means for me, a 50 years old man, this :


Bureaucracy (like paying taxes)
Chronic illnessess
Being a disabled person myself ("Well, that is why I don't have a hand anymore.")
Myasthenia
Lookism ("Uh, that one is looking so ugly, I won't give him the job !")
Birthday parties ("Which of our friends are we going to invite so nobody feels like being neglected ?"
- "So, our kid wants to throw a party. How many children can we endure ?"
- So, our teenager had been throwing a party while we were visiting Aunt Whatshername - and now we have destroyed furniture, painted walls, the bad smell of far too much alcohol, a teenager in a police cell, and I think something was stolen too. And who put the hamster into the microwave oven ? Thank god nobody turned that thing on !")
Avoiding bullies (for example in the tram) and extremists
Violence in general (hooligans, criminals)
Washing dirty clothes (yes, that is something that needs to be done as well !)
Washing the disjes (dito)
Cleaning the remants of the digesting of the household animals' food ("The dog must go out. Who of us does it ?")
Politics (or discussing it)
Ethics
Raising children ("... needs new t-shirts again !" - "Ask grandma if she can knit a few more socks because that winter is going to be COLD !"))
Keeping children away from dangers
Car accidents
Prices for car repairs and of course for gas, too !
Securing the house in defense against burglars
Trying not to get things stolen
Household accidents (the grandmother of a co-worker died a few months ago from falling down on dark cellar stairs after fetching beverage)
Spirituality (yes, nobody wants that, but for some people, it's important, and for some people, it even contains actually *more* athan going to church)
The question whether the money will be enough to feed everyone & pay the bills
Prices going up ("Oh no ! The rent has become even more expensive ! From what are we supposed to live now ?")
Working times ("And who looks after the children ?")
Illnesses of the own children
Preventive medical checkup
Where is the neares public toilet ? ("I'm on the motorhighway now, my stomach rumbles violently, perhaps I must vomit, and nowhere there is a toilet to be seen ...")
Bad meals and good meals in the firm's cantina
Bad smells (farts)
Bad smells (far too much perfume or hair treatment spray)
Intrigue at work
Bullying (co-workers, or sometimes it's even the boss)
Repairing holes in clothes
Getting insects out of the household (like ants)
Trying not to get parasits from going out for a walk into nature (like ticks, for example)

Nobody wants to hear that, but these are actually "adult" themes. Like bureaucracy, for example, Nobody likes that. Nobody likes calculating taxes. It's an un pleasant work teenagers normally never have contact with.
Or, raising teenagers in general. Lots of drama.
Or bullying. Parents have to fdeal with their children being bullied as well. And with other parents denying that *their* children were bullying others.
Posted By: Saito Hikari Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 25/05/21 10:01 PM
Very funny, but actually right. It's a lot harder to write a more subtle story with adult themes that don't involve outright violence or an implied threat of violence, because they rely less on grimdark shock value and literally beating you over the head with the themes. Though there is also a point where shock value goes so far off the charts that it becomes comically edgy and juvenile too.

It's why I actually hold the opinion that Pathfinder: Kingmaker or WotR for instance are a lot more sophisticated and mature than the likes of DOS2 and the current state of BG3, even if the presentation doesn't seem like it on a skin deep analysis level because the Pathfinder games don't twist themselves into pretzels waxing as much philosophy as, say, Pillars of Eternity. Those worlds are very convincing and most importantly don't focus entirely on the main characters, which is a much harder thing to pull off.
Posted By: mrfuji3 Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 25/05/21 10:09 PM
Originally Posted by AlrikFassbauer
It is a very widespread common - and very dumb - misconception to believe that "adult" = grim, however, this is not so.

"Adult" means for me, a 50 years old man, this :

Bureaucracy (like paying taxes)
Chronic illnessess
Being a disabled person myself ("Well, that is why I don't have a hand anymore.")
Myasthenia
Lookism ("Uh, that one is looking so ugly, I won't give him the job !")
Birthday parties ("Which of our friends are we going to invite so nobody feels like being neglected ?"
- "So, our kid wants to throw a party. How many children can we endure ?"
- So, our teenager had been throwing a party while we were visiting Aunt Whatshername - and now we have destroyed furniture, painted walls, the bad smell of far too much alcohol, a teenager in a police cell, and I think something was stolen too. And who put the hamster into the microwave oven ? Thank god nobody turned that thing on !")
Avoiding bullies (for example in the tram) and extremists
Violence in general (hooligans, criminals)
Washing dirty clothes (yes, that is something that needs to be done as well !)
Washing the disjes (dito)
Cleaning the remants of the digesting of the household animals' food ("The dog must go out. Who of us does it ?")
Politics (or discussing it)
Ethics
Raising children ("... needs new t-shirts again !" - "Ask grandma if she can knit a few more socks because that winter is going to be COLD !"))
Keeping children away from dangers
Car accidents
Prices for car repairs and of course for gas, too !
Securing the house in defense against burglars
Trying not to get things stolen
Household accidents (the grandmother of a co-worker died a few months ago from falling down on dark cellar stairs after fetching beverage)
Spirituality (yes, nobody wants that, but for some people, it's important, and for some people, it even contains actually *more* athan going to church)
The question whether the money will be enough to feed everyone & pay the bills
Prices going up ("Oh no ! The rent has become even more expensive ! From what are we supposed to live now ?")
Working times ("And who looks after the children ?")
Illnesses of the own children
Preventive medical checkup
Where is the neares public toilet ? ("I'm on the motorhighway now, my stomach rumbles violently, perhaps I must vomit, and nowhere there is a toilet to be seen ...")
Bad meals and good meals in the firm's cantina
Bad smells (farts)
Bad smells (far too much perfume or hair treatment spray)
Intrigue at work
Bullying (co-workers, or sometimes it's even the boss)
Repairing holes in clothes
Getting insects out of the household (like ants)
Trying not to get parasits from going out for a walk into nature (like ticks, for example)

Nobody wants to hear that, but these are actually "adult" themes. Like bureaucracy, for example, Nobody likes that. Nobody likes calculating taxes. It's an un pleasant work teenagers normally never have contact with.
Or, raising teenagers in general. Lots of drama.
Or bullying. Parents have to fdeal with their children being bullied as well. And with other parents denying that *their* children were bullying others.
This is a list of things adults (but also kids for some of them) encounter/have to deal with, but that doesn't make them "adult themes."

"Themes" refers to a subject explored, which means it has to do more than just happen once. It should be an integral part of the story, or at the very least discussed by the characters for the reader/viewer to consider, and usually comes with an intended message. And the "adult" part of "adult themes" more refers to material that we don't want to expose children to, rather than just things kids have less experience of. Chronic illness, racism/sexism/ableism, violence (more than just random violence; e.g., exploring what motivates people to violence or the effects it has on victims), poverty, death of close family. These are adult themes.

Taxes, repairing holes in clothes, washing dishes, hosting birthday parties, and getting insects out of the household aren't adult themes by themselves. They'd need to be a larger part of, for example, a family's poverty and showing how the parents struggle to provide for their kids in a cruel, unjust world.
Posted By: Alexandrite Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 25/05/21 10:35 PM
Well... we already are surrounded by THOSE adult themes. Personally, I play games to get away from those things for a little while. Also, Dragon Age series did an excellent job of exploring politics, religion, and so forth. However, it was a very different game than BG3.

Back to BG3, if you want to analyse it further, Mayrina's story is probably the best example of an "adult theme". The poor woman loved her husband so much, she couldn't bear to lose him, and lost her mind instead - she was willing to sacrifice her unborn child to resurrect her husband. And there was no way to do that, of course, so she ended up with a zombie husband following her to Baldur's Gate. Dark fantasy, yes - symbolic representation of grief and depression, maybe. But after trying this quest every which way and realising there was no good way of resolving it for her, as a mother I had mental images of this zombie husband and a tiny newborn baby and it just disturbed the heck out of me.
Also, Astarion's reaction didn't help!!! (I chose it for his approval anyway, because at that point there is nothing you can do, so you either cry or you laugh, and maybe he's got a good point after all.)
Posted By: Maximuuus Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 25/05/21 11:18 PM
Originally Posted by Alexandrite
Personally, I play games to get away from those things for a little while.

That's really sad.
Posted By: Tarlonniel Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 25/05/21 11:42 PM
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Originally Posted by Alexandrite
Personally, I play games to get away from those things for a little while.

That's really sad.

Uh oh, I think we've found someone who thinks escapism is a dirty word. I'd call down the wrath of J.R.R. Tolkien's On Fairy-Stories, except I'd rather go have fun playing a video game than deal with this real life crap... grin
Posted By: CJMPinger Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 25/05/21 11:48 PM
Escapism and Discussion of Real World Issues are both good things and do not have to be mutually exclusive, cause escapism depends on the viewers ability to essentially be sucked into that world and not think directly of the real world.
Posted By: Boblawblah Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 26/05/21 12:17 AM
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Originally Posted by Alexandrite
Personally, I play games to get away from those things for a little while.

That's really sad.

huh, I think it's totally normal and healthy smile
Posted By: Dez Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 26/05/21 04:16 AM
Originally Posted by Tarlonniel
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Originally Posted by Alexandrite
Personally, I play games to get away from those things for a little while.

That's really sad.

Uh oh, I think we've found someone who thinks escapism is a dirty word. I'd call down the wrath of J.R.R. Tolkien's On Fairy-Stories, except I'd rather go have fun playing a video game than deal with this real life crap... grin

Originally Posted by Boblawblah
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Originally Posted by Alexandrite
Personally, I play games to get away from those things for a little while.

That's really sad.

huh, I think it's totally normal and healthy smile

Yes. Thank you both. Wanting a break from IRL is not bad in any way, and it does not mean by default that something is wrong with a individual in any way. Having your brain work with creative stories, fantasies and imagination is a clear sign of a healthy and functional brain - a concept that far and widely spread among most psychological institutes. Unfortunately, many adults lose their creativity and imagination as they grow older due to focusing too much on the "adult stuff" in real life, and that is... Unfortunate. :[ Many great authors and scientists, encourage adults to continue to stimulate their childish side (don't stigmatize the word <3) by engaging in curiosity, imagination, creativity and fantasy.

And this is EXACTLY what games like BG3 does and that is EXACTLY why games like BG3 are awesome. laugh

Either way, I believe both Larian and I would like to leave as much of the irl discussion back as possible - so addressing the other part of the conversation:


Originally Posted by AlrikFassbauer
It is a very widespread common - and very dumb - misconception to believe that "adult" = grim, however, this is not so.

"Adult" means for me, a 50 years old man, this :

Bureaucracy (like paying taxes)
Chronic illnessess
Being a disabled person myself ("Well, that is why I don't have a hand anymore.")
Myasthenia
Lookism ("Uh, that one is looking so ugly, I won't give him the job !")
Birthday parties ("Which of our friends are we going to invite so nobody feels like being neglected ?"
- "So, our kid wants to throw a party. How many children can we endure ?"
- So, our teenager had been throwing a party while we were visiting Aunt Whatshername - and now we have destroyed furniture, painted walls, the bad smell of far too much alcohol, a teenager in a police cell, and I think something was stolen too. And who put the hamster into the microwave oven ? Thank god nobody turned that thing on !")
Avoiding bullies (for example in the tram) and extremists
Violence in general (hooligans, criminals)
Washing dirty clothes (yes, that is something that needs to be done as well !)
Washing the disjes (dito)
Cleaning the remants of the digesting of the household animals' food ("The dog must go out. Who of us does it ?")
Politics (or discussing it)
Ethics
Raising children ("... needs new t-shirts again !" - "Ask grandma if she can knit a few more socks because that winter is going to be COLD !"))
Keeping children away from dangers
Car accidents
Prices for car repairs and of course for gas, too !
Securing the house in defense against burglars
Trying not to get things stolen
Household accidents (the grandmother of a co-worker died a few months ago from falling down on dark cellar stairs after fetching beverage)
Spirituality (yes, nobody wants that, but for some people, it's important, and for some people, it even contains actually *more* athan going to church)
The question whether the money will be enough to feed everyone & pay the bills
Prices going up ("Oh no ! The rent has become even more expensive ! From what are we supposed to live now ?")
Working times ("And who looks after the children ?")
Illnesses of the own children
Preventive medical checkup
Where is the neares public toilet ? ("I'm on the motorhighway now, my stomach rumbles violently, perhaps I must vomit, and nowhere there is a toilet to be seen ...")
Bad meals and good meals in the firm's cantina
Bad smells (farts)
Bad smells (far too much perfume or hair treatment spray)
Intrigue at work
Bullying (co-workers, or sometimes it's even the boss)
Repairing holes in clothes
Getting insects out of the household (like ants)
Trying not to get parasits from going out for a walk into nature (like ticks, for example)

Nobody wants to hear that, but these are actually "adult" themes. Like bureaucracy, for example, Nobody likes that. Nobody likes calculating taxes. It's an un pleasant work teenagers normally never have contact with.
Or, raising teenagers in general. Lots of drama.
Or bullying. Parents have to fdeal with their children being bullied as well. And with other parents denying that *their* children were bullying others.
This is a list of things adults (but also kids for some of them) encounter/have to deal with, but that doesn't make them "adult themes."

I disagree about "nobody wanting to hear all that" - these kind of themes are seen time and time again in modern movies, novels and series.

And while I most certainly get your perspective when you say that these are more "adult themes" than just sex and violence - I think that is a matter of not agreeing on what "adult theme" is about. "Adult theme" does not mean that it is necessary stuff that interest or relate more to adults than teens or children - BUT, it is stuff that might not be appropriate for children and teens according to our current standards. Sexual content might be less interesting for a mature adult, but according to the standards of many countries - sexual content in movies and games is simply inappropriate for children, regardless of how interested and/or curious they are about it. And as such, it is labeled as "adult content" as society has decided that they are the only audience that can handle violence and sexual content and process it in a "good" way.

The stuff that you talked about is often mentioned, but in more creative ways, in children and teen content as well - sometimes to a rather large extent.

Anyhow - while I think that many of these things can be (and in many cases are) implemented in games, both for adults, teens and children, but in appropriate levels for a fantasy setting. The hints and struggles of an adult is there (I could list them both in BG3 and from other famous movies, literature and games, but that would be rather time consuming and pointless >.< ), but in small levels so one can focus on the entire fantasy part of the story (heroes and villains, exciting battles and, of course, the story itself).

I mean, all big masterpieces - both in movies, games and literature, contains these elements to some extent since it makes the entire story more relatable and believable. But, often (in fantasy, horror and action etc settings) on appropriate levels to stay on the main topic of the story.
Posted By: Blackheifer Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 26/05/21 05:12 AM
Originally Posted by AlrikFassbauer
It is a very widespread common - and very dumb - misconception to believe that

"adult" = grim

however, this is not so.

"Adult" means for me, a 50 years old man, this :


Bureaucracy (like paying taxes)
Chronic illnessess
Being a disabled person myself ("Well, that is why I don't have a hand anymore.")
Myasthenia
Lookism ("Uh, that one is looking so ugly, I won't give him the job !")
Birthday parties ("Which of our friends are we going to invite so nobody feels like being neglected ?"
- "So, our kid wants to throw a party. How many children can we endure ?"
- So, our teenager had been throwing a party while we were visiting Aunt Whatshername - and now we have destroyed furniture, painted walls, the bad smell of far too much alcohol, a teenager in a police cell, and I think something was stolen too. And who put the hamster into the microwave oven ? Thank god nobody turned that thing on !")
Avoiding bullies (for example in the tram) and extremists
Violence in general (hooligans, criminals)
Washing dirty clothes (yes, that is something that needs to be done as well !)
Washing the disjes (dito)
Cleaning the remants of the digesting of the household animals' food ("The dog must go out. Who of us does it ?")
Politics (or discussing it)
Ethics
Raising children ("... needs new t-shirts again !" - "Ask grandma if she can knit a few more socks because that winter is going to be COLD !"))
Keeping children away from dangers
Car accidents
Prices for car repairs and of course for gas, too !
Securing the house in defense against burglars
Trying not to get things stolen
Household accidents (the grandmother of a co-worker died a few months ago from falling down on dark cellar stairs after fetching beverage)
Spirituality (yes, nobody wants that, but for some people, it's important, and for some people, it even contains actually *more* athan going to church)
The question whether the money will be enough to feed everyone & pay the bills
Prices going up ("Oh no ! The rent has become even more expensive ! From what are we supposed to live now ?")
Working times ("And who looks after the children ?")
Illnesses of the own children
Preventive medical checkup
Where is the neares public toilet ? ("I'm on the motorhighway now, my stomach rumbles violently, perhaps I must vomit, and nowhere there is a toilet to be seen ...")
Bad meals and good meals in the firm's cantina
Bad smells (farts)
Bad smells (far too much perfume or hair treatment spray)
Intrigue at work
Bullying (co-workers, or sometimes it's even the boss)
Repairing holes in clothes
Getting insects out of the household (like ants)
Trying not to get parasits from going out for a walk into nature (like ticks, for example)

Nobody wants to hear that, but these are actually "adult" themes. Like bureaucracy, for example, Nobody likes that. Nobody likes calculating taxes. It's an un pleasant work teenagers normally never have contact with.
Or, raising teenagers in general. Lots of drama.
Or bullying. Parents have to fdeal with their children being bullied as well. And with other parents denying that *their* children were bullying others.


I try to practice Gratitude every single day. Today I am grateful that you are not involved with writing this game. wink

And listen, I am not saying those are not adult themes - but usually when we refer to adult themes we would consider it something that should be supplemented by a mature adult if a child was exposed to it. There are some examples on your list that qualify and a lot that really don't. For exampled: on my list Slavery and Racism should be supplemented with discussion, however (checks your list) - "Bad smells (Farts)" doesn't really require any supplementation. Although if that is something you are having trouble with you may want to consider the children's book "Everybody Poops" by Tarō Gomi. I've heard great things.

Ok, good luck and happy reading!
Posted By: Niara Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 26/05/21 06:00 AM
Originally Posted by Alexandrite
There is no way to have a happy ending for Mayrina's story, and she implies she is going to Baldur's Gate so you may encounter her there again.

Oh I don't know... Still alive, still safely carrying her child, and on her way to Bg (with her safely ambulatory zombified husband), where she might find someone who can raise said zombified husband properly provided she can scrape together the means to pay for it or work out an agreement... and if you clear out the swamp first, but don't talk to the witch or enter her house, and only then go back and do the road-side encounter, and side with the idiot brothers, they survive as well... I'd count that as a 'positive as you can hope for' outcome for now...
Posted By: Blackheifer Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 26/05/21 06:27 AM
Originally Posted by Niara
Originally Posted by Alexandrite
There is no way to have a happy ending for Mayrina's story, and she implies she is going to Baldur's Gate so you may encounter her there again.

Oh I don't know... Still alive, still safely carrying her child, and on her way to Bg (with her safely ambulatory zombified husband), where she might find someone who can raise said zombified husband properly provided she can scrape together the means to pay for it or work out an agreement... and if you clear out the swamp first, but don't talk to the witch or enter her house, and only then go back and do the road-side encounter, and side with the idiot brothers, they survive as well... I'd count that as a 'positive as you can hope for' outcome for now...

Well RAW. Her husband going from dead to Zombie (Undead) just made things 50x worse. See before she would have been looking at a Raise Dead spell - about 500g - likely out of her price range unless she can somehow scrape together that huge sum of money but theoretically possible.

Now that her Husband is Undead she would need at minimum a True Resurrection Spell, Cost? 25,000 gold. She could take her chances with a Reincarnation spell for 1,000 Gold if he has only been dead less than 10 days, but she risks getting a totally random race.

Just fyi, Revivify is only supposed to work if used within a minute of death.

No, Mayrina is screwed. She would have been better just taking him in the wheelbarrow and getting a low level necromancer to cast Gentle Repose for a couple copper pieces.

Mayrina is the worst. She reminds me of the main character, Dorothy, in the show Servant. Her flaw is in her inability to say goodbye. She already got two other people killed and she nearly ended up creating another Green Hag with her behavior.
Posted By: Pandemonica Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 26/05/21 06:36 AM
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
Originally Posted by Niara
Originally Posted by Alexandrite
There is no way to have a happy ending for Mayrina's story, and she implies she is going to Baldur's Gate so you may encounter her there again.

Oh I don't know... Still alive, still safely carrying her child, and on her way to Bg (with her safely ambulatory zombified husband), where she might find someone who can raise said zombified husband properly provided she can scrape together the means to pay for it or work out an agreement... and if you clear out the swamp first, but don't talk to the witch or enter her house, and only then go back and do the road-side encounter, and side with the idiot brothers, they survive as well... I'd count that as a 'positive as you can hope for' outcome for now...

Well RAW. Her husband going from dead to Zombie (Undead) just made things 50x worse. See before she would have been looking at a Raise Dead spell - about 500g - likely out of her price range unless she can somehow scrape together that huge sum of money but theoretically possible.

Now that her Husband is Undead she would need at minimum a True Resurrection Spell, Cost? 25,000 gold. She could take her chances with a Reincarnation spell for 1,000 Gold if he has only been dead less than 10 days, but she risks getting a totally random race.

Just fyi, Revivify is only supposed to work if used within a minute of death.

No, Mayrina is screwed. She would have been better just taking him in the wheelbarrow and getting a low level necromancer to cast Gentle Repose for a couple copper pieces.

Mayrina is the worst. She reminds me of the main character, Dorothy, in the show Servant. Her flaw is in her inability to say goodbye. She already got two other people killed and she nearly ended up creating another Green Hag with her behavior.

I would say her flaw was the willingness to give up her infant to a hag. Would be hilarious if we found her as a street wench in BG with her zombie husband has her bodyguard. Or maybe they can raise gold for the scrolls by having people pay 1g to throw a rock at him.
Posted By: Niara Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 26/05/21 06:38 AM
Once you re-kill the zombie, it's not a zombie any more - it's just a corpse again, and if she's lucky a corpse that has only been dead within one of the shorter time brackets. You couldn't raise him from his zombie state, but you could put him down, and then raise him, provided the body was intact enough.

You're right, of course, that sourcing some gentle repose would have been a FAR better option... she's going to be looking at at least the 1 year time scale by this point, even at best, I'd wager.

(I agree, she's not a favourable character... just not entirely hopeless yet, if you wrangle it right, I feel.)
Posted By: Pandemonica Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 26/05/21 06:40 AM
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Originally Posted by Alexandrite
Personally, I play games to get away from those things for a little while.

That's really sad.
Dude, you are saying that is sad, all the while you being a self admitted D&D player/DM that is a game based in pure fantasy. One should not cast stones in a glass house.
Posted By: acatlas Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 26/05/21 06:48 AM
Patchs based on larions show of how they are at releasing content in the patchs to be tested you will get 2 more classes this year then be waiting all next year for the next 3 and then you still have races and additional content to come out.

Regards to the game itself its graphics are amazing what little of the game exists is good. But regards to how well they are at keeping the public interested its pretty bottom of the barrel.

Currently there are 3 main stream crpgs all who have been on content release and production for the games.

WoTR, BG3 and Solasta.

Graphics - BG3 edges in quality of design on characters and the vocals / cinematics. Story line is just as good with pathfinder but your reading text controls are just as smooth if not smoother. Larger party size. Down side its not 5e so classes lack balance they have in 5e. Solastas interactions are better for partys mechanics in combat are rated more true to the rules and combat is based on content rated better. Though I would not 100% agree on that because i think bg 3 still has things to correct with its combat. Larion is the least communicative of all 3 companies and releases content the slowest of all 3 companies. In comparison if I was recommending a person to pick up a game currently I would recommend WOTR over BG3 as a game. Mostly because BG3 is way to slow with content release currently and has the worst communication. In comparison WOTR the end game will probably not be as good as the finally finished version of BG3 the problem is that finally finished version at the rate content is being given out in early access we wont see it till 2023 and they company is bad at communicating. Like the worst at communicating.

I said it before and ill say it again...For the amount of content they are producing at the rate they are producing it I would expect alot more. We should be testing 2 new classes by next month at the bare minimum right now while I do not expect it on the same results on full release I would say they are not up to expectations. If I had a friend asking me should I get bg 3 I would say no wait at least till after the next patch. I had 2 friends ask me if they should bother streaming coming back to try the new content I answered them not to bother wait for the next patch because youll be bored in 2 weeks with the amount of content release in last patch 2 weeks after that youll be sitting here on the forums checking for new content and be dissappointed still 2 months after that waiting for something else.

If we were getting a class or a race added every 2 months with a couple of items added. It would probably keep most of us busy enough to not get bored before the next patch is released. If we had 2-3 more zones to play through with each patch we might get 3 months out of it but when you look the average patch release is every 4-5 months your gonna lose interest fast. During EA and be dissappointed with time it takes for new content.

-----

That is not to say the game is bad the rate at which content is added and fixed is bad. Because its not enough to keep people busy. Its also not to compare the game to say mmos or collections games which need large content patches every 3 months just to keep people invested. But in the this case for the game to be viable to keep peoples interest you need more content at a better release rate than the existing content to keep people interested.

Also with current estimates from most people expecting mid june before content comes out. Assuming some of the covid restrictions get lifted even if they release a ton of new content no one is going to touch it after spending better part of a year cooped up inside summer is the one time most people if they can get out would rather be outside than inside for a breather from being inside.
Posted By: Blackheifer Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 26/05/21 07:09 AM
Originally Posted by Niara
Once you re-kill the zombie, it's not a zombie any more - it's just a corpse again, and if she's lucky a corpse that has only been dead within one of the shorter time brackets. You couldn't raise him from his zombie state, but you could put him down, and then raise him, provided the body was intact enough.

You're right, of course, that sourcing some gentle repose would have been a FAR better option... she's going to be looking at at least the 1 year time scale by this point, even at best, I'd wager.

(I agree, she's not a favourable character... just not entirely hopeless yet, if you wrangle it right, I feel.)

Ok, so this is good, I have been trying to figure this out FOREVER. So there is one camp that says if you kill a Zombie its still undead, its just a dead undead. There is another camp that says if you kill a zombie then the zombie is no longer undead, its just dead.

So best case Revivify and Raise Dead are off the table because of Organ loss, and time restrictions (1 minute, 10 days respectively) - UNLESS you use Gentle Repose which halts the time limit for 10 days per casting and is super cheap to cast. Which means she would be able to use a Resurrection spell to bring her husband back since it has a 100 year time limit - cost: 1000 gold.

But here is where things get confusing. The wording is VERY strange on Resurrection:

"You touch a dead creature that has been dead for no more than a century, that didn’t die of old age, and that isn’t undead. If its soul is free and willing, the target returns to life with all its hit points.
This spell neutralizes any poisons and cures normal diseases afflicting the creature when it died. It doesn’t, however, remove magical diseases, curses, and the like; if such effects aren’t removed prior to casting the spell, they afflict the target on its return to life."


as opposed to True Resurrection:
"You touch a creature that has been dead for no longer than 200 years and that died for any reason except old age. If the creature’s soul is free and willing, the creature is restored to life with all its hit points.
This spell closes all wounds, neutralizes any poison, cures all diseases, and lifts any curses affecting the creature when it died. The spell replaces damaged or missing organs and limbs.
The spell can even provide a new body if the original no longer exists, in which case you must speak the creature’s name. The creature then appears in an unoccupied space you choose within 10 feet of you."


So is a dead zombie a dead undead or just dead? Do you have a good source for that?
Posted By: vometia Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 26/05/21 08:26 AM
For the attention of nobody in particular, let's make sure we don't get too snarky, please. As for Alrik's comment, I read that as promoting games as escapism because RL "adult content" is pants, which I'm inclined to agree with; sometimes we can have more than enough adulting as it is without turning the grimdark up to 11 too...
Posted By: gaymer Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 26/05/21 12:21 PM
Originally Posted by Niara
Originally Posted by Alexandrite
There is no way to have a happy ending for Mayrina's story, and she implies she is going to Baldur's Gate so you may encounter her there again.

Oh I don't know... Still alive, still safely carrying her child, and on her way to Bg (with her safely ambulatory zombified husband), where she might find someone who can raise said zombified husband properly provided she can scrape together the means to pay for it or work out an agreement... and if you clear out the swamp first, but don't talk to the witch or enter her house, and only then go back and do the road-side encounter, and side with the idiot brothers, they survive as well... I'd count that as a 'positive as you can hope for' outcome for now...

Not to be that person, but it is obvious with the Larian clues in the Hag lair that Mayrina will run into the Hag again in the city and still have her child taken from her.
Posted By: Alexandrite Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 27/05/21 12:20 AM
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
as opposed to True Resurrection:
"You touch a creature that has been dead for no longer than 200 years and that died for any reason except old age. If the creature’s soul is free and willing, the creature is restored to life with all its hit points.
This spell closes all wounds, neutralizes any poison, cures all diseases, and lifts any curses affecting the creature when it died. The spell replaces damaged or missing organs and limbs.
The spell can even provide a new body if the original no longer exists, in which case you must speak the creature’s name. The creature then appears in an unoccupied space you choose within 10 feet of you."

So is a dead zombie a dead undead or just dead? Do you have a good source for that?

Moving aside from zombies for a second...

Reading these spell descriptions, suddenly I have a sinking feeling they had a reason for choosing 200 years as the exact amount of time Astarion has been undead. :O What if we have to somehow resurrect him as a normal living elf but can't because he's technically been dead/undead just that little bit too long? Aaaaaagh! (Theorycrafting angst is the worst.)
Posted By: Tarlonniel Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 27/05/21 12:42 AM
Originally Posted by Alexandrite
Reading these spell descriptions, suddenly I have a sinking feeling they had a reason for choosing 200 years as the exact amount of time Astarion has been undead. :O What if we have to somehow resurrect him as a normal living elf but can't because he's technically been dead/undead just that little bit too long? Aaaaaagh! (Theorycrafting angst is the worst.)

Perhaps you should turn your theorycrafting loose upon

the possible uses of The Necromancy of Thay.

I think it's going to be very relevant to the problem you mention above. But that's just my own theory.
Posted By: Sabra Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 27/05/21 01:15 AM
Originally Posted by Alexandrite
Reading these spell descriptions, suddenly I have a sinking feeling they had a reason for choosing 200 years as the exact amount of time Astarion has been undead. :O What if we have to somehow resurrect him as a normal living elf but can't because he's technically been dead/undead just that little bit too long? Aaaaaagh! (Theorycrafting angst is the worst.)

That's been an unfortunate thought of mine since I heard him say "200 years"! I was like oh noooo what are we gonna do...
Posted By: Boblawblah Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 27/05/21 01:29 AM
Originally Posted by Alexandrite
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
as opposed to True Resurrection:
"You touch a creature that has been dead for no longer than 200 years and that died for any reason except old age. If the creature’s soul is free and willing, the creature is restored to life with all its hit points.
This spell closes all wounds, neutralizes any poison, cures all diseases, and lifts any curses affecting the creature when it died. The spell replaces damaged or missing organs and limbs.
The spell can even provide a new body if the original no longer exists, in which case you must speak the creature’s name. The creature then appears in an unoccupied space you choose within 10 feet of you."

So is a dead zombie a dead undead or just dead? Do you have a good source for that?

Moving aside from zombies for a second...

Reading these spell descriptions, suddenly I have a sinking feeling they had a reason for choosing 200 years as the exact amount of time Astarion has been undead. :O What if we have to somehow resurrect him as a normal living elf but can't because he's technically been dead/undead just that little bit too long? Aaaaaagh! (Theorycrafting angst is the worst.)

meanwhile me,

https://i.imgur.com/uapB9F5.gif
Posted By: Tuco Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 27/05/21 12:43 PM
Originally Posted by Boblawblah
One of the greatest movies ever made, really.
Edgar Wright is a genius.
Posted By: Blackheifer Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 27/05/21 01:51 PM
So according to my research a dead zombie is a dead undead and cannot be returned to regular life with a Raise dead or Resurrection spell. However, you can restore a zombie to undeath by using Revivify on it. But to restore it to its old alive self you need True Resurrection.

Basically Mayrina is screwed. Best of the bad options is to tell her to go bury her husband or drag his body to Baldur's Gate.
Posted By: Abits Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 27/05/21 03:26 PM
Man this is so nostalgic. Remember when we had to wait a month for any signs of life from this game?
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 28/05/21 07:42 AM
Poor kittens ...
Do you know that for some other games, developers went silent for one and half year right now? laugh
And last 3 news they give to us was: Lead Writer was fired ... Lead Director was fired ... Entire studio was fired. laugh laugh laugh

This is nothing, compared. :P
Posted By: Abits Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 28/05/21 08:58 AM
So because it can be worse Larian is okay? It's like saying that if I'm a thief but there are murderers in the world I'm good
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 28/05/21 11:49 AM
Bcs it can be worse, it can be worse. Nothing more, nothing less. wink
And Larian is okay, yes .. but not bcs there are worse, but bc its quite okay.
Its shocking i know. laugh

To work with your example ...
You are comparing Larian to Thief ...
And from that example, since you used murderer as another example ... i dare to presume that you are comparing Larian to some kind of Thief, that is stealing million worth cars. smile
I see Larian as some kid rascal, who "stole" a slice of pie to his mother, even tho she forbid that. smile

It certainly can disapoint some people ... but its really not earthshaking crime. wink laugh
Posted By: Blackheifer Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 28/05/21 12:05 PM
Ragnarok has a good point. We are kinda being a bit impatient. Its hard not to be excited about updates though. There are also a LOT of companies that have been truly awful about updates.

I was just thinking about Vampire The Masquerade Bloodlines 2 is not releasing this year and I haven't seen an update since they fired the entire studio.

There are development studios that have gone VERY long periods of time without any update or just disappeared into the ether.

Hell, even Valheim has been slow with updates.
Posted By: Boblawblah Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 28/05/21 12:35 PM
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Poor kittens ...

This is nothing, compared. :P

your condescending attitude doesn't help anything. You're fine with the lack of news, great. Some people aren't. No one said Larian committed a literal crime, they're just venting their displeasure on a game forum. Also, adding a bunch of :P laugh :X comes across very passive aggressive :P
Posted By: vometia Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 28/05/21 12:45 PM
Remember to be awesome to each other, guys.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 28/05/21 01:38 PM
Blackheifer get it. smile
It warmed my heart. ^_^

BTW about Bloodlines ... if you dont count the info that HSL is no longer working on it, there is another half-year of silence ... and if you dont count the info, that Brian Mitsoda is no longer working on it ...
And i believe you can "not count" them both, since none of them is telling you anything about the game really ... kinda last "news" we get was in August 2020, and it was "there is COVID and its hard to work like this" (nothing new actualy, also not exactly telling anything about the game) ... so if you want to count some "news" about the game itself, it was DD#12, released in 22 Jul 2020.
Since then? Nothing really. laugh

So on one hand we have studio that promised release in Q1 (March i belive was original date?) 2020 ... and since start of Q3 2020 didnt tell litteraly anything about it ...

And on other hand we have studio, that moved first release by month, and since then is providing game, updates, and from time to time even new content ... and even tho they never promised (as far as i know, feel free to corect me) that another patches will be coming out regulary, nor any specific dates for any of them ... people keep requesting them. O_o

Feel free to judge me, but i really dont think that we have right to be frustrated here. laugh
IF Larian was promissing us, as name of this topic say "the patch every 2 weeks" that would be entirely different situation ... but as i said abowe, im not aware of that. smile

Originally Posted by Boblawblah
You're fine with the lack of news, great. Some people aren't.
And we all are free to express oureselves. smile
So i guess ballance maintained itself. smile

Originally Posted by Boblawblah
No one said Larian committed a literal crime
Neither did i ...
I was only providing values for variables in someone else (Abits) example. wink

Originally Posted by Boblawblah
Also, adding a bunch of :P laugh :X comes across very passive aggressive :P
There is nothing agresive about Smilies ...
Smilies are there to add tone that letters are lacking. wink

How else can you tell if text was written as a joke, or in deadly serious mind, if not by adding: ":D" or "-_-" ? wink
Posted By: Blackheifer Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 28/05/21 01:57 PM
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Blackheifer get it. smile
It warmed my heart. ^_^

BTW about Bloodlines ... if you dont count the info that HSL is no longer working on it, there is another half-year of silence ... and if you dont count the info, that Brian Mitsoda is no longer working on it ...
And i believe you can "not count" them both, since none of them is telling you anything about the game really ... kinda last "news" we get was in August 2020, and it was "there is COVID and its hard to work like this" (nothing new actualy, also not exactly telling anything about the game) ... so if you want to count some "news" about the game itself, it was DD#12, released in 22 Jul 2020.
Since then? Nothing really. laugh

You're right, its been longer than I realized since there was any news at all. It was supposed to be released November 2020, then one delay because of COVID then Paradox fires the Lead, and the dev house.

They don't even have a new studio hired yet, and honestly who would sign up for this? Even once they get a new studio it will take them 6 + months to get up to speed and organized to continue work?

To be honest I have a mixed opinion about Brian Mitsoda. On the one hand he worked on the original Bloodlines, and wrote the story. On the other hand he worked on Tides of Numenera, which was garbage.
Posted By: Tuco Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 28/05/21 03:07 PM
Vampires: Bloodlines 2 is also a complete failure of a production.
Last I heard about it from a friend in the gaming press (and with ties at Paradox) they are scrapping whatever was already done and the publisher itself openly stated doesn't expect a release before 2023 AT BEST.

I wouldn't take it as a virtuous model of anything.
Basically all the downsides of a mid budget production with the costs of a triple A.

It also wasn't an Early Access that sort-of promised to keep a direct line with the user base about how the project was evolving over time, so they had absolutely no "moral obligation" until release to communicate better in that sense.

In fact I started this post to point the "minor differences" but now the more I think about it the more it seems an apples and oranges comparison no matter how I look at it.


P.S. It's also worth stressing that most people aren't really unhappy with the lack of a patch in itself (while admittedly it may not help the mood) as much as they are with how "secretive" Larian is being about what they are working on.
They are basically running an EA where they mostly act as if they felt absolutely no need to tell us anything of what they are doing.
And no, I'm sorry, but a blog post every few months with a bunch of factoids about players' habits (according to aggregated data) is not exactly the same that telling us "We are aware of this issue, we are going to do this about it" (or the evergreen alternative: "Tough luck suckers! We are doing whatever we feel like and you are going to eat this shit up with a smile".
Posted By: Abits Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 28/05/21 04:31 PM
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Bcs it can be worse, it can be worse. Nothing more, nothing less. wink
And Larian is okay, yes .. but not bcs there are worse, but bc its quite okay.
Its shocking i know. laugh

To work with your example ...
You are comparing Larian to Thief ...
And from that example, since you used murderer as another example ... i dare to presume that you are comparing Larian to some kind of Thief, that is stealing million worth cars. smile
I see Larian as some kid rascal, who "stole" a slice of pie to his mother, even tho she forbid that. smile

It certainly can disapoint some people ... but its really not earthshaking crime. wink laugh
Is there some sort of argument here?
Posted By: qwerrecd42 Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 28/05/21 04:38 PM
Originally Posted by Tuco
P.S. It's also worth stressing that most people aren't really unhappy with the lack of a patch in itself (while admittedly it may not help the mood) as much as they are with how "secretive" Larian is being about what they are working on.
They are basically running an EA where they mostly act as if they felt absolutely no need to tell us anything of what they are doing.
And no, I'm sorry, but a blog post every few months with a bunch of factoids about players' habits (according to aggregated data) is not exactly the same that telling us "We are aware of this issue, we are going to do this about it" (or the evergreen alternative: "Tough luck suckers! We are doing whatever we feel like and you are going to eat this shit up with a smile".

this is my biggest issue. they said player feedback (explicitly mentioning the forums, mind you) would drive the conversation, but so far it doesn't even look like it's *part* of the conversation
Posted By: Maximuuus Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 28/05/21 04:42 PM
Originally Posted by qwerrecd42
Originally Posted by Tuco
P.S. It's also worth stressing that most people aren't really unhappy with the lack of a patch in itself (while admittedly it may not help the mood) as much as they are with how "secretive" Larian is being about what they are working on.
They are basically running an EA where they mostly act as if they felt absolutely no need to tell us anything of what they are doing.
And no, I'm sorry, but a blog post every few months with a bunch of factoids about players' habits (according to aggregated data) is not exactly the same that telling us "We are aware of this issue, we are going to do this about it" (or the evergreen alternative: "Tough luck suckers! We are doing whatever we feel like and you are going to eat this shit up with a smile".

this is my biggest issue. they said player feedback (explicitly mentioning the forums, mind you) would drive the conversation, but so far it doesn't even look like it's *part* of the conversation

They just don't care.
It would have be more honnest to say "we're interrested in data and nothing more".
Posted By: qwerrecd42 Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 28/05/21 04:48 PM
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Originally Posted by qwerrecd42
Originally Posted by Tuco
P.S. It's also worth stressing that most people aren't really unhappy with the lack of a patch in itself (while admittedly it may not help the mood) as much as they are with how "secretive" Larian is being about what they are working on.
They are basically running an EA where they mostly act as if they felt absolutely no need to tell us anything of what they are doing.
And no, I'm sorry, but a blog post every few months with a bunch of factoids about players' habits (according to aggregated data) is not exactly the same that telling us "We are aware of this issue, we are going to do this about it" (or the evergreen alternative: "Tough luck suckers! We are doing whatever we feel like and you are going to eat this shit up with a smile".

this is my biggest issue. they said player feedback (explicitly mentioning the forums, mind you) would drive the conversation, but so far it doesn't even look like it's *part* of the conversation

They just don't care.
It would have be more honnest to say "we're interrested in data and nothing more".

and you can easily make telemetry data say whatever the fuck you want so that's less than useless
Posted By: Abits Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 28/05/21 04:59 PM
Originally Posted by qwerrecd42
and you can easily make telemetry data say whatever the fuck you want so that's less than useless
I'm not sure about that. I think Larian does use this data, but I think that's pretty much it for player feedback. They addressed some stuff with patch 3 IIRC but that actually was a while ago
Posted By: gaymer Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 28/05/21 05:02 PM
Originally Posted by Abits
Originally Posted by qwerrecd42
and you can easily make telemetry data say whatever the fuck you want so that's less than useless
I'm not sure about that. I think Larian does use this data, but I think that's pretty much it for player feedback. They addressed some stuff with patch 3 IIRC but that actually was a while ago

What they cherrypick and want to acknowledge.
Posted By: Abits Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 28/05/21 05:08 PM
Look I'm sure they do benefit from running the ea except making some good money early on. I'm just pretty sure that by this point they would have preferred it if we just played the EA and shut up
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 28/05/21 05:53 PM
Originally Posted by Abits
Is there some sort of argument here?
Sure, the same as in original post ...
Just severaly repeated in multiple different forms, to decerase change of missunderstanding. wink

Reading still required tho. :-/

Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Originally Posted by qwerrecd42
this is my biggest issue. they said player feedback (explicitly mentioning the forums, mind you) would drive the conversation, but so far it doesn't even look like it's *part* of the conversation
They just don't care.
It would have be more honnest to say "we're interrested in data and nothing more".
I would not say they "just dont care" ...
About some things, you are probably right (that stuff where they see that we would like it, but it simply dont fit their vision ... like 6member party, or in past quite often repeated "real time with pause") ... but not in general. :-/

I want to believe they do read this forum ... then filter ... then re-read ... then filter again ... and the rest, they send forward to someone who take that idea, and re-shape it to fit their vision.
It might seem like they dont care, since we never get exactly what we asked for ... still our imput had some value for those changes.

Hopefully that promised comunity update will bring some light in this matter.
Posted By: Maximuuus Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 28/05/21 08:11 PM
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by Abits
Is there some sort of argument here?
Sure, the same as in original post ...
Just severaly repeated in multiple different forms, to decerase change of missunderstanding. wink

Reading still required tho. :-/

Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Originally Posted by qwerrecd42
this is my biggest issue. they said player feedback (explicitly mentioning the forums, mind you) would drive the conversation, but so far it doesn't even look like it's *part* of the conversation
They just don't care.
It would have be more honnest to say "we're interrested in data and nothing more".
I would not say they "just dont care" ...
About some things, you are probably right (that stuff where they see that we would like it, but it simply dont fit their vision ... like 6member party, or in past quite often repeated "real time with pause") ... but not in general. :-/

I want to believe they do read this forum ... then filter ... then re-read ... then filter again ... and the rest, they send forward to someone who take that idea, and re-shape it to fit their vision.
It might seem like they dont care, since we never get exactly what we asked for ... still our imput had some value for those changes.

Hopefully that promised comunity update will bring some light in this matter.

Just believe what you want.
At this point it looks pretty clear to me that they just don't care about their players. It's close to be disrespectful.

Don't make a game with such a name if you're not ready to take care about a community that will care so much about the game.
75% of us wouldn't even be here if it was DoS3. They promised nothing but wind and "soon" just mean nothing.

I can hear that they have to make decision, that they have to think , that it's not ready, that... whatever you want... But we even don"t deserve vague informations.
Giving NOTHING to us is a shame. It's not like many of us weren't waiting this game for 20 years !

We're just their beta testers and their datas, not their community.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 28/05/21 09:10 PM
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Just believe what you want.
Thank you. smile
But that was my plan anyway. laugh

Originally Posted by Maximuuus
At this point it looks pretty clear to me that they just don't care about their players. It's close to be disrespectful.
Yet still not even half as disrespectful as some users on this forum are to them. :-/

Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Don't make a game with such a name if you're not ready to take care about a community that will care so much about the game.
How can someone not mention Bloodlines 2 when he get so obvious smash pass(is that phrase used in english too?)? laugh
THAT is my dear friend how disrespectful, and not caring developer team, that excrete(?) on whole "name of product" lookalike. :-/

Originally Posted by Maximuuus
75% of us wouldn't even be here if it was DoS3.
Honestly, im one of 25% for certain ...
I dint even know Baldur's Gate until i have seen that trailer with Illithid ... and since i love Cthulhu, its design catches my eye ... i fall deeply in love imediatly, and it didnt let me go so far (354h played). smile
So i probably cant say anything about this. laugh

Originally Posted by Maximuuus
They promised nothing but wind and "soon" just mean nothing.
What they promised?
I mean, yes i know that they said "soon"™ ... 2 weeks back ... but, that dont sound so dramatic to me. :-/

Once again, im kinda used from other studios ... Blizzard use Soon™ for time between half, and two years. laugh
When Diablo 3 was released(2012), there was known issue about user names containing special symbols ("Uživatel" in mine language) ... its was marked as "will be resolved Soon"™ ... it wasnt resolved til today and i kinda doubt it ever will. laugh

Originally Posted by Maximuuus
I can hear that they have to make decision, that they have to think , that it's not ready, that... whatever you want... But we even don"t deserve vague informations.
I would not lie ...
It would please me aswell to get info in some regular matter ... to be exited about deverloper diary every month would be great. Sadly there isnt much studios who would offer such comitment.

I would advise to wait with this critique after that promised Comunity Update ...

Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Giving NOTHING to us is a shame. It's not like many of us weren't waiting this game for 20 years !
I understand ...
Aswell as you were waiting foryour Baldur's Gate 3 ... i was waiting for Knights of the Old Republic 3 and Bloodlines 2 ...

You get your early acess ... you get 4 patches and 12 comunity upgrades ... another patch is preparing for your, and soon™ you get another comunity upgrade ... and there is no force in the universe (except huge asteroids, aliens, war, plagues, and cca billion other stuffs) that would stop you from geting your game.

I get ... one cinematic trailer and 20 minutes of HORRIBLE(!) gameplay video. laugh For one of them.
Im sorry, but i seem to be unable to recognize that shame you were talking about. laugh

Originally Posted by Maximuuus
We're just their beta testers and their datas, not their community.
How would you define difference? O_o
Posted By: IrenicusBG3 Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 28/05/21 09:35 PM
I admittedly lost enthusiasm for this game on Patch 4 and now I only follow peripherally.

But I have to say that I don't know why Larian gets so much praise for being a company that "listens to feedback". From what I am seeing on BG3 and from reports of what they did on DOS2, I don't see that much of feedback incorporated into their games. It is much more marketing than anything else. If they didn't do in the past, it is unlikely they will do in the future with better sales.

So I think it is a matter of adjusting expectations.
Posted By: Sabra Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 28/05/21 09:53 PM
I'm certainly not here because of DOS2... I only got the game last week.

There's so much impatience here. Games didn't always do open betas. I remember waiting around for any crumb of info about loads of games over the years, going months, sometimes a year or more, without any update whatsoever, and never having the chance to play them until they hit shelves as fully released games. This is way better than that.
Posted By: qwerrecd42 Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 28/05/21 09:54 PM
Adjusting expectations perhaps but they explicitly stated they would be listening to feedback and having it drive the conversation so I think that bears calling them out on it even if we probably shouldn't have believed them in the first place.

When you as a company promise X, I don't care if X is something that almost no one else does or if it's you going out of your way to do something. You promised X, you got my money on the back of said promise of X, I damn well expect to see X.

Don't give me this crap about "oh just be patient" or "oh they're doing their best stop bothering them". They promised something very specific and are not delivering on it. It's as simple as that.
Posted By: Maximuuus Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 28/05/21 09:59 PM
Impatience... The game is in EA for 7 monthes and we only had a new class... nothing else significantly improve the game or the replay value of the EA.

Are u aware that an EA usually don't last for 5 years ?

Now I'm waiting for Ragnarock to come and say "they toned down surfaces, they improve cinematics, they fixed bugs, they add loaded dice, they improve the containers UI, now we can hide helmets...the updates were amazing !" (Or something like that)
Posted By: Sabra Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 28/05/21 10:21 PM
Maximuuus, I don't expect the game to be in EA for 5 years and 7 months is hardly 5 years lol. And yeah, they did do all of those things. That's the kind of stuff I expect for them to tackle. New classes and such I expect to be added less frequently. Druid came in what, late February? I think summer would be a good time for a new class to test out. We likely won't have all the classes until release anyway. Around 5 years total on a video game is pretty standard.

I agree, qwerrecd42, and I do think they should be more communicative. We don't know what their internal conversations look like, and the feedback likely is a part of their process. We just aren't seeing it, which is a communication problem. I fully agree that should change, especially since we're contributing financially to this project. I also would like to see a roadmap of what is planned for EA, so please don't get the impression that I'm trying to shut the sentiment down entirely.

It's just that these forums get so hyperbolic you would think this was the worst failure of a video game ever attempted in the history of ever.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 28/05/21 10:34 PM
Originally Posted by qwerrecd42
they explicitly stated they would be listening to feedback
How do you know they dont listen? O_o

I mean ...
Im listening to all (ok, most ... maybe more like some, w/e) of you, yet i dont change my opinion just bcs someone thinks his is better. :-/
Nor do others just bcs i think mine is better. laugh

Originally Posted by qwerrecd42
having it drive the conversation
How do you know they dont have conversations driven by feedback? O_o

I mean ...
Was it told that those conversations will be here with us, or was that just your expectation? :P
They can simply move interesting opinions to their table, and conversate about them there.

Come on we arent even able to get to some compromises within oureselves ...
How can we expect them to follow our instructions when one say go right, another say go left, yet another say stand still, and im saing banana? laugh

Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Now I'm waiting for Ragnarock
I checked ... there is noone with that nick.
Im afraid you will wait a long time. laugh

Originally Posted by Maximuuus
"they toned down surfaces, they improve cinematics, they fixed bugs, they add loaded dice, they improve the containers UI, now we can hide helmets...the updates were amazing !" (Or something like that)
Or something like that. wink
https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=postlist&Board=86&page=1
Posted By: Pandemonica Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 28/05/21 10:40 PM
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Aswell as you were waiting foryour Baldur's Gate 3 ... i was waiting for Knights of the Old Republic 3 and Bloodlines 2 ...

Were you as disappointed as I was when Lucasfilm killed that fan remake of KOTOR in Unreal engine? God that looked awesome!
Posted By: Pandemonica Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 28/05/21 10:44 PM
Originally Posted by qwerrecd42
Adjusting expectations perhaps but they explicitly stated they would be listening to feedback and having it drive the conversation so I think that bears calling them out on it even if we probably shouldn't have believed them in the first place.

When you as a company promise X, I don't care if X is something that almost no one else does or if it's you going out of your way to do something. You promised X, you got my money on the back of said promise of X, I damn well expect to see X.

Don't give me this crap about "oh just be patient" or "oh they're doing their best stop bothering them". They promised something very specific and are not delivering on it. It's as simple as that.

Just saying....EVERY developer that launches a EA gives the old "we want to hear player feedback" line, it is PR. It is a reach around for their customers to make them feel special or part of something. I have never taken that crap seriously. This is my 3rd EA, and they have all been about the same. The only communication that I have seen developers MAYBE act on, is in beta, which this is not. Even then, 9/10 they just looked at data rather than opinions (because lets be honest every player has their own opinion on what would make a game they like better).
Posted By: Pandemonica Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 28/05/21 10:46 PM
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Impatience... The game is in EA for 7 monthes and we only had a new class... nothing else significantly improve the game or the replay value of the EA.

Are u aware that an EA usually don't last for 5 years ?

Now I'm waiting for Ragnarock to come and say "they toned down surfaces, they improve cinematics, they fixed bugs, they add loaded dice, they improve the containers UI, now we can hide helmets...the updates were amazing !" (Or something like that)

Pretty sure a little thing called COVID probably put a major dent in their development cycle.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 28/05/21 10:54 PM
Originally Posted by Pandemonica
Were you as disappointed as I was when Lucasfilm killed that fan remake of KOTOR in Unreal engine? God that looked awesome!
Well ... would you describe your disappointment as devastative? Then i was. :-/
It was even sader, if you actualy realize that "remake" was only addon to original game, so people would still need to buy the old game. :-/
Pure entusiasm, none profit ...

But there is yet another rumor about KotOR remaster roaming around the internet ...
I hope that somebody tracked those people down and eployed them ... they were incredibly talented. frown

Originally Posted by Pandemonica
Just saying....EVERY developer that launches a EA gives the old "we want to hear player feedback" line, it is PR. It is a reach around for their customers to make them feel special or part of something. I have never taken that crap seriously. This is my 3rd EA, and they have all been about the same. The only communication that I have seen developers MAYBE act on, is in beta, which this is not. Even then, 9/10 they just looked at data rather than opinions (because lets be honest every player has their own opinion on what would make a game they like better).
Even if ... honestly, can you blame them?

Cantrips was adjusted, as some of us wanted ...
Spellcasting was adjusted, as some of us wanted ...
Conversations was adjusted, as some of us wanted ...
Another lines and dialogue choices was added, as some of us wanted ...

That are just few examples, certainly not whole list.
And did you notice at least ONE topic telling them "we appreciate you listened to us, and we like this change" ?
Or did you notice litteraly countless topics about "they do nothing" wich actualy means "they didnt do what I WANTED" ?
Posted By: qwerrecd42 Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 28/05/21 10:54 PM
Originally Posted by Pandemonica
Originally Posted by qwerrecd42
Adjusting expectations perhaps but they explicitly stated they would be listening to feedback and having it drive the conversation so I think that bears calling them out on it even if we probably shouldn't have believed them in the first place.

When you as a company promise X, I don't care if X is something that almost no one else does or if it's you going out of your way to do something. You promised X, you got my money on the back of said promise of X, I damn well expect to see X.

Don't give me this crap about "oh just be patient" or "oh they're doing their best stop bothering them". They promised something very specific and are not delivering on it. It's as simple as that.

Just saying....EVERY developer that launches a EA gives the old "we want to hear player feedback" line, it is PR. It is a reach around for their customers to make them feel special or part of something. I have never taken that crap seriously. This is my 3rd EA, and they have all been about the same. The only communication that I have seen developers MAYBE act on, is in beta, which this is not. Even then, 9/10 they just looked at data rather than opinions (because lets be honest every player has their own opinion on what would make a game they like better).

And I'm going to call out every game company that continues to tell that lie.
Posted By: Pandemonica Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 28/05/21 10:57 PM
Originally Posted by qwerrecd42
And I'm going to call out every game company that continues to tell that lie.

The only way you could actually "call them out" is to not purchase the EA or preorder games. If you do, they got your money and honestly don't care. I mean look, lets be honest here. The main reason for the EA was they needed an infusion of cash. It wasn't to get players "feedback". They sold millions of dollars on the EA to drive their development. They have a road map, most of this is decided. If I was some of these detractors I would come to terms with the fact that there is more than likely above 95% chance there will be no day/night cycle (actually they straight out said there wasn't and have never promised it), that the combat will NEVER be as in depth as some want it to be, and no amount of times that they bring up the S word, will it actually affect any decision they will make. If the EA bothers some players so much, lay it down until launch, play other things and enjoy your gaming.
Posted By: Boblawblah Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 28/05/21 11:27 PM
Originally Posted by Pandemonica
If the EA bothers some players so much, lay it down until launch, play other things and enjoy your gaming.


Good thing we can play other games AND comment on how we would like this game to go.

edit: can not can't lol
Posted By: Pandemonica Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 29/05/21 12:03 AM
Originally Posted by Boblawblah
Originally Posted by Pandemonica
If the EA bothers some players so much, lay it down until launch, play other things and enjoy your gaming.


Good thing we can't play other games AND comment on how we would like this game to go.
Wow I just love how some posters take a single snippet of a post, and than try to totally misrepresent the entire point of the post. But hey if it gets you a chance to use a little snark, it is all worth it...isn't it?
Posted By: mr_planescapist Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 29/05/21 12:09 AM
Is the game dead on its tracks? Not a single piece of info on anything. Zero community feedback.
Yes they are working on the game, and so are dozens of other developers of other RPGs and are 10x more communicative with its fan base.
Posted By: DrDrizzyT Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 29/05/21 12:25 AM
You know what would really keep me interested in playing this EA game? If the devs actually communicated with the player base on at least a SEMI regular basis. We haven't heard a peep out of Larian in almost a month, and the last community update WAS IN FEBRUARY!!!...........

It's hard to continue to stay interested when it feels like Larian has abandoned the project...
Posted By: mrfuji3 Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 29/05/21 12:35 AM
Originally Posted by DrDrizzyT
You know what would really keep me interested in playing this EA game? If the devs actually communicated with the player base on at least a SEMI regular basis. We haven't heard a peep out of Larian in almost a month, and the last community update WAS IN FEBRUARY!!!...........

It's hard to continue to stay interested when it feels like Larian has abandoned the project...
Ah, but we have heard a more recent peep. A little over 2 weeks ago Larian announced that they'd "be back soon" with a community update about how they process feedback. Unclear how long they mean by "soon" though; could be next week, could be 3 weeks from now. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Posted By: DrDrizzyT Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 29/05/21 12:37 AM
Yah, that was the hotfix at the beginning of the month.....and then total silence. lol
Posted By: mrfuji3 Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 29/05/21 12:46 AM
Originally Posted by DrDrizzyT
Yah, that was the hotfix at the beginning of the month.....and then total silence. lol
Most of the previous times Larian's said that something was coming "soon" or "around the corner," it arrived 2 weeks after that announcement. So I was expecting this past week.

I've shifted my expectations to next week, and 3 weeks isn't a terrible definition of "soon" given the likely 2-year EA period of this game. But if the community update isn't next week then I really would have preferred that Larian either didn't use the word "soon" or had not told us until later. Of course, if instead post a quick notice: "We were planning to present a community update this week but were delayed," I'd be disappointed but perfectly accepting of that. At the very least I'd appreciate the communication.
Posted By: DrDrizzyT Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 29/05/21 12:48 AM
Absolutely agree. And that's my beef. If they would at least put something, ANYTHING, out on a consistent basis. a single tweet, every other week would suffice. Anything would be better than just going dark for months at a time. That's just not how you interact with your devoted player base.
Posted By: Tuco Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 29/05/21 02:45 AM
Originally Posted by mrfuji3
Originally Posted by DrDrizzyT
Yah, that was the hotfix at the beginning of the month.....and then total silence. lol
Most of the previous times Larian's said that something was coming "soon" or "around the corner," it arrived 2 weeks after that announcement. So I was expecting this past week.

I've shifted my expectations to next week, and 3 weeks isn't a terrible definition of "soon" given the likely 2-year EA period of this game. But if the community update isn't next week then I really would have preferred that Larian either didn't use the word "soon" or had not told us until later. Of course, if instead post a quick notice: "We were planning to present a community update this week but were delayed," I'd be disappointed but perfectly accepting of that. At the very least I'd appreciate the communication.
While it's somewhat amusing to throw cheap jabs at Larian for being poor at managing this EA stuff, I'm saving my ACTUAL lamentations of pain for when the update will be out and it will consist on:

- several paragraphs of irrelevant factoids about who fucked Minthara and who Astarion or something
- few patronizing lines about how they are "totally listening to us" and how invaluable our opinions are
- not a single problem the community highlighted since the beginning actually being acknowledged, let alone addressed or solved.
- MAYBE one more class and still no new races.
Posted By: qwerrecd42 Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 29/05/21 05:26 AM
Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by mrfuji3
Originally Posted by DrDrizzyT
Yah, that was the hotfix at the beginning of the month.....and then total silence. lol
Most of the previous times Larian's said that something was coming "soon" or "around the corner," it arrived 2 weeks after that announcement. So I was expecting this past week.

I've shifted my expectations to next week, and 3 weeks isn't a terrible definition of "soon" given the likely 2-year EA period of this game. But if the community update isn't next week then I really would have preferred that Larian either didn't use the word "soon" or had not told us until later. Of course, if instead post a quick notice: "We were planning to present a community update this week but were delayed," I'd be disappointed but perfectly accepting of that. At the very least I'd appreciate the communication.
While it's somewhat amusing to throw cheap jabs at Larian for being poor at managing this EA stuff, I'm saving my ACTUAL lamentations of pain for when the update will be out and it will consist on:

- several paragraphs of irrelevant factoids about who fucked Minthara and who Astarion or something
- few patronizing lines about how they are "totally listening to us" and how invaluable our opinions are
- not a single problem the community highlighted since the beginning actually being acknowledged, let alone addressed or solved.
- MAYBE one more class and still no new races.

Maybe they are listening, just only to the people that spam the subreddit with horny fanart :P
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 29/05/21 09:38 AM
Originally Posted by Tuco
- not a single problem the community highlighted since the beginning actually being acknowledged, let alone addressed or solved.
This is pointless ... -_-
Posted By: Tuco Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 29/05/21 10:27 AM
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by Tuco
- not a single problem the community highlighted since the beginning actually being acknowledged, let alone addressed or solved.
This is pointless ... -_-
You'll have to elaborate, because it's not clear what you are EXACTLY trying to say here.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 29/05/21 10:35 AM
The same i said like hunderts time allready ...
No matter what Larian do, all you give them is "you did nothing" unless they do exactly what YOU want, the way YOU want, and imediatly since YOU refuse to wait ...
(the word YOU is there as pronoun, that can be substituted with any impatient forum user, that claims that Larian did "no major change")

If you cant see the difference, then use this guide:
https://screenrant.com/baldurs-gate-3-update-patch-branch-save-file/
And try to play Patch 1 ... then replay the same with Patch 4.

Maybe then you shall see all those "not even single problem the comunity highligted" that was "not changed at all". -_-
Posted By: Tuco Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 29/05/21 10:54 AM
Well, Larian can do whatever the hell they want, but YEAH, I'll keep calling them out when most of their fixes are about shit no one ever asked for (like "loaded dices", "mushrooms and herbs that don't take a bonus action to eat") and not a single major point broadly highlighted by the community at large is being addressed.

I don't give a shit if you think it's just me being "capricious", "entitled" or whatever, I'm not going to give Larian a pass for releasing a game with controls that ANTAGONIZE the players rather than assisting them or with arbitrary changes to the combat core mechanics that don't make the fights feel better by any possible metric.

Your answer basically boils down to "WEEEEEELL, MAYBE THEY DIDN'T FIX THE PROBLEMS YOU GUYS TALK ABOUT BUT THEY TWEAKED SOME RANDOM SHIT ANYWAY".
Ok, so? Are they expected a round of applause just because they are actually developing a software rather than just pretending, here?

Virtually no one likes their control scheme, the whole chain/unchain system.
Virtually no one seems to like the custom changes they made to the core D&D rules, not even people who are NOT INTO the D&D rules to begin with. The only people who seem to be fine with it are the ones that "are fine with whatever".
Even among the above-mentioned part of the user base "fine with whatever" everyone seems to agree "jump for disengage" and similar crap are downright stupid and disruptive to the combat.
A lot of people expressed concerns about how exploitable and unbalanced the food-as-a-healing-source is in the game. Especially since you can use it in combat.
The long rest/camp system is still a half-baked amorphous mess no one seems to be particularly fond of. It's an awkward and immersion-breaking solution merged with an abusable convenience.
The decision of skipping any work on a day/night cycle from the get go is not making anyone happy. At best you have people who are indifferent for it, people who are unhappy about it and people who think they are in the first group but will realize over time what they are missing and jump on the second.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 29/05/21 11:23 AM
Originally Posted by Tuco
shit no one ever asked for (like "loaded dices")
Didnt they:
https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=772117
https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=770672
https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=769291
https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=768429

And those are only results from first paige searching keywords "frustrating RNG" ... :-/
Kinda lot of "no-ones". O_o

Originally Posted by Tuco
Your answer basically boils down to "WEEEEEELL, MAYBE THEY DIDN'T FIX THE PROBLEMS YOU GUYS TALK ABOUT BUT THEY TWEAKED SOME RANDOM SHIT ANYWAY".
Well, cant say it surprises me that you see it like this, since anything that is not your prirotity is "random sh**", right? -_-
It took few hunderts of years for humans to understand that Sun is not spining around Earth ... i wonder how long it would take you to understand that World is not spining around you. :-/

//edit:
Do you know that caps lock dont make your arguments more valid? O_o
Posted By: The Composer Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 29/05/21 11:29 AM
Relax with your attitude a bit, @RagnarokCzD. I've noticed your last few posts are a bit confrontational. We can disagree with eachother and criticise criticism without making it personal.
Posted By: Tuco Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 29/05/21 11:31 AM
Yeah, yeah, you can keep your cheap attempts at guilt-tripping people for yourself, frankly, because you aren't impressing anyone.

And that's without going ONCE AGAIN in a long-winded back and forth on the difference between actually fixing things and implement a crutch that just circumvents the problem, as loaded dices are toward the "too much RNG" problem.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 29/05/21 11:32 AM
Originally Posted by The Composer
Relax with your attitude a bit, @RagnarokCzD. I've noticed your last few posts are a bit confrontational. We can disagree with eachother and criticise criticism without making it personal.
I must say it kinda surprises me that my name is standing there allone ... O_o
I would say that to argue, at least two are needed usualy. :-/

But i get it, i try to stick on facts more.
Posted By: Pandemonica Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 29/05/21 12:54 PM
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
That are just few examples, certainly not whole list.
And did you notice at least ONE topic telling them "we appreciate you listened to us, and we like this change" ?
Or did you notice litteraly countless topics about "they do nothing" wich actualy means "they didnt do what I WANTED" ?

Honestly Rag, I just gave up trying to have conversations about it. It was like beating my head against a table with some posters. So I just let them rant and move on to posts that interest me, it keeps my blood pressure lower. The expectations of constant communication that is expected of Larian is kind of astounding. If they kept in constant contact like some want, they wouldn't have time to actually finish the game.

Are there some things I want personally, Hell yeah! But I am not going on about it so obsessively and what does that actually achieve anyways? I guess it is good to vent, but trying to have a discussion here is like talking politics today here in the states, and I would just rather not do it.

It is just a shame about KOTOR, I mean hell if I was Lucas, seeing the quality of that fan remake, I would have bought it off them and had them finish it and market it. It is better than the crap LucasStudios is putting out today anyways.
Posted By: Tuco Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 29/05/21 01:07 PM
Originally Posted by Pandemonica
Honestly Rag, I just gave up trying to have conversations about it.
And yet you never gave up on your habit of sniping passive-aggressive remarks at other users indirectly, because for some reason it makes you MAD that they aren't joyful about anything that is going on with the EA as you seem to be.

Quote
The expectations of constant communication that is expected of Larian is kind of astounding. If they kept in constant contact like some want, they wouldn't have time to actually finish the game.
Yeah, we can make up all sort of fictional retellings of what's going on, but pretending that people being unhappy about almost three months of complete radio silence from Larian is the same as demanding an official communicate every few days is a bit of a joke.
At this point we don't even know if there's any reason to feel any sense of anticipation for the next patch, let alone when it's going to be.

Quote
t is just a shame about KOTOR, I mean hell if I was Lucas, seeing the quality of that fan remake, I would have bought it off them and had them finish it and market it. It is better than the crap LucasStudios is putting out today anyways.
KOTOR is getting an official remake by ASPYR, by the way. It's one of worst kept secrets in the gaming industry today.
That's why the amateur one was shut down.
Posted By: vometia Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 29/05/21 01:41 PM
Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by Pandemonica
Honestly Rag, I just gave up trying to have conversations about it.
And yet you never gave up on your habit of sniping passive-aggressive remarks at other users indirectly, because for some reason it makes you MAD that they aren't joyful about anything that is going on with the EA as you seem to be.
[snip]

Enough. Quit sniping at each other, guys. <_<
Posted By: Blade238 Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 29/05/21 02:30 PM
Meh, BG3 is one of the biggest disappointments for an EA I've experienced. Not as bad as Halo Wars 2 was, but it's definitely bad.

Looking at Pathfinder WotR's progress from a distance, I wish I'd invested in them over Larian at this point. If I had the option to get a refund I would have certainly done so by now due to the incredibly poor communication and lack of any major progress.
Posted By: Abits Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 29/05/21 02:41 PM
You know what annoys me about this silence? It's the fact that Larian probably has a roadmap and they know exactly how they want the game to look like, but they are keeping quiet about it.

Why? I think it's a bullshit PR reason - they want us to think we have more influence than we actually have on the final product, and by keeping us guessing they keep hope for change alive, as well as keeping the forum active and subsequently keep interest in the game without any effort on their part.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 29/05/21 02:50 PM
As if they added surface effects to cantrips, change HP and AC numbers, create clumsy chain, and other things ...
Just so they can fix it all over time and look good? laugh

I would say that sounds like a little conspiracy ...
But even if, then you all should rest easy ... since everything you dont like about the game will be removed, no matter if you mention it or not. laugh
Posted By: Abits Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 29/05/21 02:58 PM
Oh sure they make changes. But these are not changes that I would have considered straying from the possible roadmap, but simply small balancing changes.
Posted By: qwerrecd42 Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 29/05/21 04:04 PM
I guess those of us with less than positive opinions at the state of EA should just get used to our opinions being consistently misrepresented and being called whiny children for daring to give feedback when it was expressly asked for by Larian. That's why I left the subreddit but oh well.
Posted By: Abits Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 29/05/21 06:10 PM
Don't be so dramatic. I don't think anyone tried to censor anyone else here.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 29/05/21 06:11 PM
I would dare to opose that opinion ...
There is many people with quite negative opinions on different matters ... but as long as they can provide reasons, and arguments ... nobody called them whiny childern. O_o

I could give you few examples ...
But i believe you can find them too. smile
Posted By: qwerrecd42 Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 29/05/21 06:42 PM
Originally Posted by Alexandrite
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
I realy would like to say something to topic, but i cant help the feeling that the only acurate reaction would be posting picture of infant with tears in his eyes. :-/

Yep. All of the "are we there yet?" reminds me of my 4 year old. :P

Now that that misinformation is cleared up...


Originally Posted by Abits
Don't be so dramatic. I don't think anyone tried to censor anyone else here.

Censor no, drown in passive aggressive name-calling, brow-beating, and willful misrepresentations of opinions yes.
Posted By: Abits Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 29/05/21 07:58 PM
It's the internet my friend it has to have some bad comments. And I doubt it's only one side who does this.

In the Bg3-larian-bad yes no I think I'm mostly on the anti Larian camp, but I don't think no one in "my side" has ever been a dick online. This is online. Best we can do is try our best and talk on point.
Posted By: IrenicusBG3 Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 29/05/21 08:14 PM
Originally Posted by Abits
Why? I think it's a bullshit PR reason - they want us to think we have more influence than we actually have on the final product, and by keeping us guessing they keep hope for change alive, as well as keeping the forum active and subsequently keep interest in the game without any effort on their part.

I don't think they even care about that. They knew they would increase their cashflow with BG brand. Now that they sold 2 million on EA, I don't think they have any stimuli to change the course of action.

It is a shame because they got so many good feedback early on, that certainly could be make this masterpiece. Plus they have Solasta that just made a big test ground for 5E that they can easily steal good ideas.

I will have no pity on Larian when the game is released. They had plenty of opportunities.
Posted By: etonbears Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 29/05/21 10:00 PM
Originally Posted by Abits
You know what annoys me about this silence? It's the fact that Larian probably has a roadmap and they know exactly how they want the game to look like, but they are keeping quiet about it.

Why? I think it's a bullshit PR reason - they want us to think we have more influence than we actually have on the final product, and by keeping us guessing they keep hope for change alive, as well as keeping the forum active and subsequently keep interest in the game without any effort on their part.

I'm sure you are right that Larian know what they want the game to look like; most likely it's basically the EA design you are playing now, which is exactly what was shown in their pre-EA advertising.

I don't expect anything to change markedly without overwhelming community support, which is difficult as most players do not actually express their opinion openly. My assumption is that Larian try to determne the opinion of the silent majority from their gameplay data, but whether this is a good proxy is hard to say.

As to why there is an EA at all, I think it is most likely that it lowers the risk associated with the game. Knowing the overall reaction to the game is positive ( and it is, regardless of whether any individual forum poster likes or hates the game ) allows Larian a degree of confidence that BG3 will not break the studio. It is also possible that their ambitions for the game were in danger of exhausting their financial resources; getting EA revenue is substantially better than taking loans against future revenue. The EA sales so far should give them several years financial buffer based on current studio headcount, or alternatively allow them to pour more resources into their vision.

It would be nice, however, if they spent some of that revenue to employ full-time staff dedicated to interfacing between the studio and their player base.
Posted By: vometia Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 29/05/21 10:08 PM
Originally Posted by qwerrecd42
Originally Posted by Abits
Don't be so dramatic. I don't think anyone tried to censor anyone else here.

Censor no, drown in passive aggressive name-calling, brow-beating, and willful misrepresentations of opinions yes.

Guys, enough. There have been several requests today for people to quit sniping at each other.

And before anyone asks, the quoted bits are just the latest examples of many and it applies to everyone who's been getting a bit too smart. Please stop and think before going full keyboard warrior because I'm going to start suspending people if this doesn't stop.
Posted By: qwerrecd42 Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 29/05/21 11:35 PM
Originally Posted by IrenicusBG3
I don't think they even care about that. They knew they would increase their cashflow with BG brand. Now that they sold 2 million on EA, I don't think they have any stimuli to change the course of action.

It is a shame because they got so many good feedback early on, that certainly could be make this masterpiece. Plus they have Solasta that just made a big test ground for 5E that they can easily steal good ideas.

I will have no pity on Larian when the game is released. They had plenty of opportunities.


That's why I'm so annoyed at Larian. They went out of their way to say how much community feedback matters to them, but their actions clearly demonstrate that it does not, or at least only the telemetry does inasmuch as it allows them to make memes about how horny everyone is. They're gonna make their game, player feedback be damned.

At this point any feedback I give is just venting into a (hopefully) receptive audience.
Posted By: Blackheifer Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 30/05/21 03:42 AM
I have two theories on why Larian has been so quiet.

1) They are waiting for E3 to do a big marketing reveal.

2) The flooding was worse than they realized and they have had to convert the studio into a seaworthy vessel. In the process they realized this was their chance to escape Belgium finally and are currently trying to row the entire studio up the Lys to France.

I am sure its the first, but I am secretly hoping its the second reason...
Posted By: Saito Hikari Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 30/05/21 04:23 AM
They are aiming too low if they want to merely row to France. They should cross the Atlantic Ocean and get all the way to Canada.
Posted By: Abits Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 30/05/21 07:54 AM
When the EA only started I assumed the silence was a result of the overwhelming number of people who bought the game and provided feedback, but now it seems like it's not the reason anymore, and probably never was.

About E3 - even if it's true that the current silence is because they are waiting for E3, it doesn't explain the silence ever since the EA released
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 30/05/21 08:04 AM
If they are waiting for E3 ...
Shouldnt they by now start teasing? O_o

I mean usualy they start posting on Twitter something like "in two weeks we give you a show". O_o
Posted By: mr_planescapist Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 30/05/21 08:08 AM
Originally Posted by Abits
You know what annoys me about this silence? It's the fact that Larian probably has a roadmap and they know exactly how they want the game to look like, but they are keeping quiet about it.

Why? I think it's a bullshit PR reason - they want us to think we have more influence than we actually have on the final product, and by keeping us guessing they keep hope for change alive, as well as keeping the forum active and subsequently keep interest in the game without any effort on their part.


Exactly my thought. 99% of the game is DECIDED. Stuff we complain about is that +/- 1% that will change, as we have seen; very minor cosmetic stuff.
Plus I feel they are taking <we are now AAA big boys club> attitude towards their fans and future games. CD PROJEKT RED anyone?

But its ok, we have CHOICES. Baldurs gate 2 still going strong, Pathfinder: Wrath of the righteous looks to be an amazing <BG2'esk> sequel game, Solasta just released with an amazing D^D gameplay system (if it does well, Solasta 2 will be amazing!), and BG3 remains a huge question mark. God I dislike nearly all the playable NPCs...what a waste.

Not sure Minsc and Boo can carry that weight on their shoulders alone...or maybe? Larian might just blow us away at E3. That will be the tipping point for me whether I stay or give up on BG3, and I believe probably for many older (and younger...?) fans of the Baldurs gate series.
Posted By: qwerrecd42 Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 30/05/21 08:14 AM
Originally Posted by mr_planescapist
God I dislike nearly all the playable NPCs...what a waste.

I thought I was the only one. Glad to know I'm not.
Posted By: Saito Hikari Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 30/05/21 08:48 AM
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
If they are waiting for E3 ...
Shouldnt they by now start teasing? O_o

I mean usualy they start posting on Twitter something like "in two weeks we give you a show". O_o

A lot of people on Reddit lately seem to be under the impression that Larian is NOT attending E3. All the information I can dig up seems to indicate that this is most likely the case. However, there is supposed to be a general DnD event in July (16-17) hosted by WotC.
Posted By: Tuco Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 30/05/21 09:24 AM
Originally Posted by Saito Hikari
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
If they are waiting for E3 ...
Shouldnt they by now start teasing? O_o

I mean usualy they start posting on Twitter something like "in two weeks we give you a show". O_o

A lot of people on Reddit lately seem to be under the impression that Larian is NOT attending E3. All the information I can dig up seems to indicate that this is most likely the case. However, there is supposed to be a general DnD event in July (16-17) hosted by WotC.
Well, I have no idea why some assumed otherwise?
It's very rare for games that are already announced/publicly playable in Early Access to bother with some (COSTLY) E3 presentation.

If anything others were guessing Larian would "trail after the E3 hype" by releasing their update concurrently to the event. I find that strategy questionable as well, frankly. I can't imagine a better way to get your "big update" completely overlooked by the audience and the press than releasing it during the "hype week" of the industry were countless new projects get revealed/shown to the public for the first time.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 30/05/21 09:57 AM
I dont see much difference in between "waiting for E3 to present there" and "waiting for E3 to start my own presentation" since its all just matter of different adress in browser for us. laugh
Posted By: Tuco Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 30/05/21 10:16 AM
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
I dont see much difference in between "waiting for E3 to present there" and "waiting for E3 to start my own presentation" since its all just matter of different adress in browser for us. laugh
Me neither. They are both terrible ideas, in the end.

Still, the assumption that they would be doing a presentation at E3 is most likely wrong, anyway.
Posted By: AlrikFassbauer Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 30/05/21 11:53 AM
Originally Posted by etonbears
I don't expect anything to change markedly without overwhelming community support, which is difficult as most players do not actually express their opinion openly. My assumption is that Larian try to determne the opinion of the silent majority from their gameplay data, but whether this is a good proxy is hard to say.

Read this article : https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PanderingToTheBase

Quoted from there :

Quote
So, just give the fans exactly what they want, and everything will work out. Right?

Wrong. Generally speaking, the more intensely devoted fans in a fandom are usually outnumbered by the casual fans. But the more devoted a fan becomes, the more active (and louder) they become in the fandom. So while a few million casual fans might enjoy an episode of a show without ever making that fact widely known, a handful of devoted and occasionally unhinged fans are screaming about how the show is Ruined FOREVER, which can be seen and heard by everyone... including the people making the show. The creators may then start pandering to these voices exclusively, believing them to be the voice of everyone watching (which these fans will often claim to be) — but "everyone" in this case may in fact consist only of a handful of people, and what this minority wants and what the less-noisy fans want can differ drastically.

This presents a major problem. The property can end up becoming a private club, accessible only to a select few. Excluding the casual fans means they'll simply drift away to find something else to spend their time on, and raising the entry bar too high means you run the risk of locking out new fans who may have been interested in the property, but now find it too difficult to access. While the vocal minority might now be satisfied (and you can't even count on that), they rarely translate to enough ratings and/or sales to justify the property's continued existence — and to make matters worse, even this hardcore minority that you catered to may begin to drift away for numerous reasons (changing tastes, burnout, lessened interest, etc). This results in diminishing returns, ending in eventual cancellation if unchecked.

Furthermore, the overall quality of the property can begin to suffer if you just listen to the vocal minority; just because someone is intensely committed to a particular work of fiction doesn't necessarily mean they know what makes good fiction work.







Originally Posted by qwerrecd42
That's why I'm so annoyed at Larian. They went out of their way to say how much community feedback matters to them, but their actions clearly demonstrate that it does not, or at least only the telemetry does inasmuch as it allows them to make memes about how horny everyone is. They're gonna make their game, player feedback be damned.

At this point any feedback I give is just venting into a (hopefully) receptive audience.

Well, I do know the opposite as well - not here, but elsewhere : Doing feedback, but being badmouthed by the forum inhabitants.
Who do not like my feedback - or don't understand it.
This is especially true when elitists are the majority in a forum.




Originally Posted by mr_planescapist
Not sure Minsc and Boo can carry that weight on their shoulders alone...or maybe?

Well, at least Binsc and Moo can't.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 30/05/21 01:41 PM
Originally Posted by Tuco
Me neither. They are both terrible ideas, in the end.
Well ... isnt the story of life picking what misstake we do next? laugh
In the end. laugh
Posted By: etonbears Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 30/05/21 01:59 PM
Originally Posted by AlrikFassbauer
Originally Posted by etonbears
I don't expect anything to change markedly without overwhelming community support, which is difficult as most players do not actually express their opinion openly. My assumption is that Larian try to determne the opinion of the silent majority from their gameplay data, but whether this is a good proxy is hard to say.

Read this article : https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PanderingToTheBase

Quoted from there :

Quote
So, just give the fans exactly what they want, and everything will work out. Right?

Wrong. Generally speaking, the more intensely devoted fans in a fandom are usually outnumbered by the casual fans. But the more devoted a fan becomes, the more active (and louder) they become in the fandom. So while a few million casual fans might enjoy an episode of a show without ever making that fact widely known, a handful of devoted and occasionally unhinged fans are screaming about how the show is Ruined FOREVER, which can be seen and heard by everyone... including the people making the show. The creators may then start pandering to these voices exclusively, believing them to be the voice of everyone watching (which these fans will often claim to be) — but "everyone" in this case may in fact consist only of a handful of people, and what this minority wants and what the less-noisy fans want can differ drastically.

This presents a major problem. The property can end up becoming a private club, accessible only to a select few. Excluding the casual fans means they'll simply drift away to find something else to spend their time on, and raising the entry bar too high means you run the risk of locking out new fans who may have been interested in the property, but now find it too difficult to access. While the vocal minority might now be satisfied (and you can't even count on that), they rarely translate to enough ratings and/or sales to justify the property's continued existence — and to make matters worse, even this hardcore minority that you catered to may begin to drift away for numerous reasons (changing tastes, burnout, lessened interest, etc). This results in diminishing returns, ending in eventual cancellation if unchecked.

Furthermore, the overall quality of the property can begin to suffer if you just listen to the vocal minority; just because someone is intensely committed to a particular work of fiction doesn't necessarily mean they know what makes good fiction work.

Yes, this is pretty much true, and has led to many videogame properties changing over time to target the perceived needs of the mainstream audience.

Most of the money in the games industry is made from F2P and MMO properties that draw revenue from stores offering pay-to-win and/or "desirable" cosmetic items. These are not the sort of game that I want to play, but I recognise that for ANY game to justify a AAA development cost ( say, tens or hundreds of million $ ), the developer MUST lean towards the mainstream to some degree.

So, we end up at the current position, where Owlcat can make a very faithful D&D game, but the audience that want to play the game is too small to justify a AAA budget. Conversely, Larian are in a position to make a AAA game, but can probably only afford to do so by leaning towards the mainstream, and deviating significantly from a faithful D&D representation.

This very simple financial reality means that no amount of righteous fury from the more committed D&D audience has any chance of influencing key design decisions in BG3, and may simply result in offending the developers, which is probably self-defeating.

I would expect ( or hope ) that the released game does take note of elements that have caused disappointment, and allows optional settings where financially practical, and moddability where this is not the case. But during early EA, while there are no optional settings available ( stability and completeness are more important ) I do not expect much more than minor design adjustments.
Posted By: Blackheifer Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 30/05/21 02:01 PM
Originally Posted by AlrikFassbauer
[quote]So, just give the fans exactly what they want, and everything will work out. Right?

Wrong. Generally speaking, the more intensely devoted fans in a fandom are usually outnumbered by the casual fans. But the more devoted a fan becomes, the more active (and louder) they become in the fandom. So while a few million casual fans might enjoy an episode of a show without ever making that fact widely known, a handful of devoted and occasionally unhinged fans are screaming about how the show is Ruined FOREVER, which can be seen and heard by everyone... including the people making the show. The creators may then start pandering to these voices exclusively, believing them to be the voice of everyone watching (which these fans will often claim to be) — but "everyone" in this case may in fact consist only of a handful of people, and what this minority wants and what the less-noisy fans want can differ drastically.

This presents a major problem. The property can end up becoming a private club, accessible only to a select few. Excluding the casual fans means they'll simply drift away to find something else to spend their time on, and raising the entry bar too high means you run the risk of locking out new fans who may have been interested in the property, but now find it too difficult to access. While the vocal minority might now be satisfied (and you can't even count on that), they rarely translate to enough ratings and/or sales to justify the property's continued existence — and to make matters worse, even this hardcore minority that you catered to may begin to drift away for numerous reasons (changing tastes, burnout, lessened interest, etc). This results in diminishing returns, ending in eventual cancellation if unchecked.

Furthermore, the overall quality of the property can begin to suffer if you just listen to the vocal minority; just because someone is intensely committed to a particular work of fiction doesn't necessarily mean they know what makes good fiction work.


This. +1 It needs little stars around it and hearts and dancing mermaids. The subtext here is also about the issue of "fan entitlement". I won't get into it, I've upset enough people today....
Posted By: Boblawblah Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 30/05/21 03:07 PM
so as long as the mass of casuals is happy, keep doing what you're doing? that seems just as ridiculous as pandering to the vocal minority. there's a reason pop music is popular, that doesn't mean I have to just say "oh well, you don't want to pander to the vocal (entitled) minority *shrug*"
Posted By: Sabra Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 30/05/21 03:35 PM
I agree with the TV Tropes quote. My experience has been much different than the most unsatisfied people on this forum. I'm admittedly newer to DnD but I'm now DMing my first campaign (and having a blast!) and my friends have been playing DnD for years. I started playing BG3 after playing DnD for a bit and it got me sooo much more excited to play pnp with my friends. I actually got some of my friends to play BG3 after hyping it up for them, and they really enjoyed it. I share some of the same concerns as other posters here, namely with disengage / jump and backstab and high ground being a bit OP, and wanting the UI to improve, but my overall experience has not been deeply negative. None of my friends have said they disliked the game or the combat. The biggest criticism I've heard from them is that the AI is kinda dumb right now and the game isn't totally polished yet.

Call us filthy casuals if you want, but I'm having fun, my friends enjoyed playing it, and from what I can tell no one was super angry while playing because things weren't a certain way. They plan to pick it up again when it releases for reals. I would rather the game appeal to a wider audience and inspire more people to play the genre. I've gotten much more into DnD as a result, which I'm sure WoTC wants to see. Now I'm thinking about playing games like Solasta, not so I can rip apart BG3 but because I enjoyed BG3 so maybe I would enjoy that as well. The playerbase should welcome that kind of response... I've played plenty of games that did one thing or another better than some other game in the same genre, but that wouldn't kill the experience for me completely and drive me to rage on forums.

Originally Posted by Boblawblah
so as long as the mass of casuals is happy, keep doing what you're doing? that seems just as ridiculous as pandering to the vocal minority. there's a reason pop music is popular, that doesn't mean I have to just say "oh well, you don't want to pander to the vocal (entitled) minority *shrug*"

Yeah? Musicians can pander to whoever they want... If that happens to be the people who like pop music then... so what?
Posted By: Abits Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 30/05/21 03:46 PM
About pandering to fans:

First, I think this isn't as cut and dry as some of you think it is. Without delving too much into death of the author, there are many cases in which ignoring your fanbase completely may lead to disastrous results (star wars prequels hi), but the opposite is also true (check out the development process of final fantasy XV).

I think that the bigger the community, the harder it is to please everyone, and I don't think this is a controversial statement. As such, I understand how it would be difficult for Larian to be attentive to fans and open to make changes. However, Larian did much to provide fans framework for providing feedback, from the form in the game luncher to this forum. I think it is silly to give us so many tools for providing feedback and than completely ignoring it.

In addition, like I said, the problem isn't the fact that Larian don't want to change things and prefers to keep to its roadmap. The problem is this entire facade of listening to feedback and building the game together with the fans.
Posted By: Tuco Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 30/05/21 04:03 PM
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
[quote=AlrikFassbauer]
This. +1 It needs little stars around it and hearts and dancing mermaids. The subtext here is also about the issue of "fan entitlement". I won't get into it, I've upset enough people today....
Nah, it's a bunch of hollow generalizations and "truisms" that sound somewhat smart without having any strong basis in reality or being backed by any meaningful evidence.

The assumption is always been that it's important to pander to the casual audience, but in reality the only thing the "casual audience" cares about is having something that looks good.
On basically any other metric their opinion is pretty much irrelevant on the popularity of the game, mostly because they hardly have strong opinions to begin with. Give them whatever and they will stick with it for a while, then their attention will fleet somewhere else. And that's true regardless of how "hardcore" or "piss easy" the game will be, for the most part.
Posted By: Abits Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 30/05/21 04:07 PM
Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
[quote=AlrikFassbauer]
This. +1 It needs little stars around it and hearts and dancing mermaids. The subtext here is also about the issue of "fan entitlement". I won't get into it, I've upset enough people today....
Nah, it's a bunch of hollow generalizations and "truisms" that sound somewhat smart without having any strong basis in reality or being backed by any meaningful evidence.

The assumption is always been that it's important to pander to the casual audience, but in reality the only thing the "casual audience" cares about is having something that looks good.
On basically any other metric their opinion is pretty much irrelevant on the popularity of the game, mostly because they hardly have strong opinions to begin with. Give them whatever and they will stick with it for a while, then their attention will fleet somewhere else. And that's true regardless of how "hardcore" or "piss easy" the game will be, for the most part.
I also want to add that all of that is fine if that's what you're going for. But I was under the impression Larian wants to make a new RPG legend, not a kind of fun game we'll forget about a month after it's release
Posted By: Pandemonica Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 30/05/21 04:11 PM
Originally Posted by Abits
I also want to add that all of that is fine if that's what you're going for. But I was under the impression Larian wants to make a new RPG legend, not a kind of fun game we'll forget about a month after it's release

Yeah but that is a pretty large assumption consider DOS2 was release in 2017 and still is going strong. Personally, I will hold my overall judgement of the game for the final version after launch. The irony of it all is, there is more of a chance that a game like Solasta from a small studio would be forgotten a month after launch than a AAA game by an established studio. But then again, maybe Solasta will pick up the reigns, and push out an even better expansion. Or it could flounder and die out in 6 months. None of us know that, and none of us know what he success of BG3 will be (although with name recognition I think it is less of a chance as well).
Posted By: Abits Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 30/05/21 04:14 PM
We'll see
Posted By: AlrikFassbauer Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 30/05/21 06:41 PM
Originally Posted by Boblawblah
so as long as the mass of casuals is happy, keep doing what you're doing? that seems just as ridiculous as pandering to the vocal minority. there's a reason pop music is popular, that doesn't mean I have to just say "oh well, you don't want to pander to the vocal (entitled) minority *shrug*"

Well, I mostly listen to Progressive Rock, and that's clearly not mainstream.

But at some times, I thoroughly enjoy the occational pop song ... When I feel especially good, that is. wink

Not everything needs to be heavy. A lemonade or a candy can brighten up the day, too ! wink
Posted By: Abits Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 30/05/21 06:45 PM
Well that's the argument isn't it? Is BG3 should be the new shining beacon of video game RPG or a fun forgettable ride?
Posted By: Saito Hikari Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 30/05/21 07:03 PM
Originally Posted by Tuco
Nah, it's a bunch of hollow generalizations and "truisms" that sound somewhat smart without having any strong basis in reality or being backed by any meaningful evidence.

The assumption is always been that it's important to pander to the casual audience, but in reality the only thing the "casual audience" cares about is having something that looks good.
On basically any other metric their opinion is pretty much irrelevant on the popularity of the game, mostly because they hardly have strong opinions to begin with. Give them whatever and they will stick with it for a while, then their attention will fleet somewhere else. And that's true regardless of how "hardcore" or "piss easy" the game will be, for the most part.

Pretty much. Most don't like to rock the boat until it's too late. Hindsight is always 20/20, as with all of the problems stemming from the armor system directly encouraging absurd end-game stat bloat in DOS2. And I wasn't someone who took place in DOS2's EA where by all accounts people raised the alarm constantly, and yet this was still something I noticed on my own as I played through DOS2 for the first time several months after the fact.

'X works because I like it' isn't exactly a compelling counter-argument to people with actual concerns based on analysis and foresight.
Posted By: DragonSnooz Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 30/05/21 07:04 PM
Right now it still feels like a fun forgettable ride. Of course a lot can change with a patch or two.

As I look at the mega-threads most complaints seem like logical ideas that casual gamers would enjoy too. Improved party controls & UI with asking for less superfluous advantage/disadvantage from verticality/backstab.

Would casual gamers have a preference between RTwP or Turn-based? No.
Would casual gamers have a preference between a party of four versus six? No.

Even if a situation has a vocal minority, it should still be considered if their opinions are valid. Most consumers don't give feedback to the point where 3% responding to a survey is considered a win.

As as others have said casual gamers usually care about the glitz and the glam, which Baldur's Gate 3 has already done well with. So far Baldur's Gate 3 has mass-appeal with little to entice long-term fans of RPGs. I don't think it's too much to ask Larian to change a few things to keep long-term RPG fans happy.
Posted By: Pandemonica Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 30/05/21 07:05 PM
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
I dont see much difference in between "waiting for E3 to present there" and "waiting for E3 to start my own presentation" since its all just matter of different adress in browser for us. laugh

Considering the state of E3 last year, and it being just web broadcast this year, why would ANY studio waste their time with it? They are better off marketing their own products. I am really curious to see what the actual participation numbers of this years E3 are going to be. Honestly, I think it is going to tank. Part of its draw was the "convention" setting, that is why developers paid so much to be a part of it. For the energy that drove word of mouth. I mean do you remember the old days when it was huge and stations like techTV had Olivia Munn broadcasting it? Now, at least for the last 2-3 years it has been just meh.
Posted By: Saito Hikari Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 30/05/21 07:09 PM
Originally Posted by Pandemonica
Considering the state of E3 last year, and it being just web broadcast this year, why would ANY studio waste their time with it? They are better off marketing their own products. I am really curious to see what the actual participation numbers of this years E3 are going to be. Honestly, I think it is going to tank. Part of its draw was the "convention" setting, that is why developers paid so much to be a part of it. For the energy that drove word of mouth. I mean do you remember the old days when it was huge and stations like techTV had Olivia Munn broadcasting it? Now, at least for the last 2-3 years it has been just meh.

Realistically, it's going to see bigger numbers this year because people really didn't like the slow drip nature of the announcements spread out across all of last Summer.

Not to mention there's a lot of stuff that has leaked out since that people are excited to see, like Dragon's Dogma 2, our first actual look at FFXVI, and a rumored unannounced higher budget FF spinoff game based on FFI. There's a lot more going on than just cRPGs.
Posted By: Pandemonica Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 30/05/21 11:25 PM
According to these, E3 has been declining since 2017:

https://www.videogameschronicle.com/news/e3-media-attendance-and-coverage-is-declining-study-finds/

https://kevin-velazquez.medium.com/the-apparent-decline-of-e3-1061a7447e3f

https://gamedaily.biz/article/1441/...as-down-by-39-compared-to-2017-evolve-pr
Posted By: Sigi98 Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 31/05/21 09:57 AM
What if we try a different approach? Larian, don't you dare release something this week!
Posted By: Alexandrite Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 31/05/21 12:49 PM
Originally Posted by Sigi98
What if we try a different approach? Larian, don't you dare release something this week!

Reverse psychology? Let's give it a whirl...

Yeah Larian, I've still got DA:Inquisition to finish before Patch 5... yep I never finished the original game 7 years ago... don't you derail me now and lure me back into BG3 with your siren song! :P
Posted By: Tarlonniel Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 31/05/21 02:18 PM
Originally Posted by Alexandrite
Yeah Larian, I've still got DA:Inquisition to finish before Patch 5... yep I never finished the original game 7 years ago...

Wow. And Corypheus hasn't managed to take over the world yet? He really is a pathetic villain.
Posted By: Boblawblah Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 31/05/21 02:39 PM
Well I've been playing EDF 5 with a little BG3 on the side, so I'm in no hurry. Please Larian, no updates for a while wink
Posted By: AlrikFassbauer Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 31/05/21 03:49 PM
Originally Posted by DragonSnooz
Even if a situation has a vocal minority, it should still be considered if their opinions are valid.

This is right, but there is a reason why the term "vocal minority" in gaming exists. Some people just behave the elitist way, and try to badmouth or silence to death the opinions of others who are not pert of "their" niche.

What I mean is this . If everyone would behave in a civil way, then things would be better.
But some try to dominate.

Some of the worse examples for that are so-called "closed circle discussions", which feel like "forums PvP". In these discussion, it is no more important to exchange opinions. No, in these discussions the only "goal" the participants have is, to dominate everyone else by pushing the own opinion through. This can result (and often does) in a discussion between two or three, maybe four elitists, who are forcefully ignoring everyone else who posts something in that discussion.
You can very clearly see that it is a "closed circle discussion" by these few participants only quoting thmselves; and never ever someone from the outside, never ever someone whom they believe not to be "part of the discussion", read : Part of the closed circle.
Posted By: Tuco Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 31/05/21 04:24 PM
Originally Posted by DragonSnooz
Right now it still feels like a fun forgettable ride. Of course a lot can change with a patch or two.

As I look at the mega-threads most complaints seem like logical ideas that casual gamers would enjoy too. Improved party controls & UI with asking for less superfluous advantage/disadvantage from verticality/backstab.

Would casual gamers have a preference between RTwP or Turn-based? No.
Would casual gamers have a preference between a party of four versus six? No.

Even if a situation has a vocal minority, it should still be considered if their opinions are valid. Most consumers don't give feedback to the point where 3% responding to a survey is considered a win.

As as others have said casual gamers usually care about the glitz and the glam, which Baldur's Gate 3 has already done well with. So far Baldur's Gate 3 has mass-appeal with little to entice long-term fans of RPGs. I don't think it's too much to ask Larian to change a few things to keep long-term RPG fans happy.
Generally speaking, I'm also not sure why there's this ongoing assumption/narrative that history is decided by the silent majority.
That has never been the case. History has always been driven by organized minorities who put their effort in leading around inert masses where they wanted them.
The silent majorities are often silent because they don't have very much to say to begin with. That, and/or they just don't care. Which doesn't change much in practical terms.
Posted By: The Composer Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 31/05/21 05:01 PM
Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by DragonSnooz
Right now it still feels like a fun forgettable ride. Of course a lot can change with a patch or two.

As I look at the mega-threads most complaints seem like logical ideas that casual gamers would enjoy too. Improved party controls & UI with asking for less superfluous advantage/disadvantage from verticality/backstab.

Would casual gamers have a preference between RTwP or Turn-based? No.
Would casual gamers have a preference between a party of four versus six? No.

Even if a situation has a vocal minority, it should still be considered if their opinions are valid. Most consumers don't give feedback to the point where 3% responding to a survey is considered a win.

As as others have said casual gamers usually care about the glitz and the glam, which Baldur's Gate 3 has already done well with. So far Baldur's Gate 3 has mass-appeal with little to entice long-term fans of RPGs. I don't think it's too much to ask Larian to change a few things to keep long-term RPG fans happy.
Generally speaking, I'm also not sure why there's this ongoing assumption/narrative that history is decided by the silent majority.
That has never been the case. History has always been driven by organized minorities who put their effort in leading around inert masses where they wanted them.
The silent majorities are often silent because they don't have very much to say to begin with. That, and/or they just don't care. Which doesn't change much in practical terms.

Though there is to some extent a... Let's call it "Negativity bias" for a lack of a better term, I'm sure there is one. In online forums, people tend to be more driven towards voicing their opinions if it's of a "negative" nature- Actually let's call it criticism, that's often what the intent is. I don't actually want to throw shade on any group of people here, rather share an experience.

It's more likely for someone to find the motivation and interest in navigating to an online forum, register, and make a thread because of having something in the nature of criticism or wish for change, than to go and say "Hey I had fun, this is great." without seeking to influence anything. This also drives people to reply where someone seems to share their opinion, or to try and 'enlighten' anyone who disagrees. It's also perfectly human to be defensive about one's opinions, and sometimes fall victim to perceiving an opposing voice as an attack or dismissal, and some people indeed quite literally do this, in either direction.

The point I'm ultimately trying to make is, online forums has the odds stacked against it of often being dominated by variants of criticism or "negativity", often because it's the most passionate fans that in their own way just want something they love to be even more loveable, somewhere deep down, even though others may perceive them as haters.

I want to focus on Larian forums specifically, to "win an argument" here, in the only way that matters in the end of the day imo, is to influence the developers. Most people get stuck in interpersonal squabble instead of focusing on what matters; Making the developer want to read, instead of dismiss it as "angry irrational people". For example a long while back, before EA launched, I wrote to Larian about the narration perspective, that a 2nd person past-tense could potentially be damaging to the feeling of player agency. I wrote something along the lines of, albeit very simplified and shortened, "Hey, if the narrator speaks about something that is currently happening, as something of the past, then as a player it may feel like the story is already set in stone, you're just viewing it through the lens of a history book, you're not actually choosing what you do in the moment. So I believe it should be narrated in 2nd person present-tense, so that the player has a stronger sense of driving the story and making the choices as they go themselves." - No squabble, no frustrated rants about how they're bad developers or ruin D&D or how everyone that disagrees with me is ignorant, or get stuck on calling them out for ad hominems, strawmans, or any other non-sense. Just keeping the eye on the ball, and presenting a rational argument.

Now I'm doubtful that my particular message was in any means impactful or the straw that broke the camel's back, I'd be surprised if not many people shared the same "awkward feeling" towards how the earlier form of narration was, but I believe level-headed discussion that focuses on the merit of the criticism, rather than other participants of the debate, goes a long way. In fact, I believe that undermines the criticism more than anything, and I dare say most people share their criticism because they hope to see it make a difference. That's what I'm trying to say I suppose, that I want criticism and calls for action to actually inspire action, rather than to undermine itself by falling victim to typical weaknesses of the human psyche.

Also, I'll suspend myself for making who ever makes it this far suffer with a TL;DR wall of stuff that probably could be about nine paragraphs shorter - Though I'll excuse myself with a 5 day tenure of insufferable heat and no wind. Please send help.
Posted By: Abits Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 31/05/21 06:08 PM
I think there is plenty of thoughtful topics here, with great arguments and well established reasoning. The idea that Larian isn't willing to listen to feedback because people on the internet could be unpleasant sometimes is kind of absurd to me. Larian are the strong, influential party here, they can do what they want. They could respond and explain themselves or they can completely ignore us and do what they want. The idea that they can't handle criticism because nameless people on the internet are mean to them is a bit ridiculous.
Posted By: Sigi98 Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 31/05/21 06:17 PM
Originally Posted by Abits
I think there is plenty of thoughtful topics here, with great arguments and well established reasoning. The idea that Larian isn't willing to listen to feedback because people on the internet could be unpleasant sometimes is kind of absurd to me. Larian are the strong, influential party here, they can do what they want. They could respond and explain themselves or they can completely ignore us and do what they want. The idea that they can't handle criticism because nameless people on the internet are mean to them is a bit ridiculous.

I don't think thats what The Composer meant. I think what they meant is that Larian might be simply more likely to listen to well reasoned feedback that does not in the same sentence insult them, because the are.. well.. humans.
Posted By: qwerrecd42 Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 31/05/21 06:23 PM
Originally Posted by Abits
I think there is plenty of thoughtful topics here, with great arguments and well established reasoning. The idea that Larian isn't willing to listen to feedback because people on the internet could be unpleasant sometimes is kind of absurd to me. Larian are the strong, influential party here, they can do what they want. They could respond and explain themselves or they can completely ignore us and do what they want. The idea that they can't handle criticism because nameless people on the internet are mean to them is a bit ridiculous.

Forum moderation is a thing. It's not like they have to go in unshielded to the dregs of the forums (and frankly this place is basically a convent in terms of game forums). The argument of "mean people on the forums drive the company away" doesn't hold water at all especially when they own/control the forums and frankly is often used as a dishonest blame shift (see the recent Paradox shenanigans).
Posted By: Abits Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 31/05/21 06:25 PM
I know what they meant. And I stand by what I said. Removing all the responsibility from Larian and blaming everything on the community, as if the reason Larian is silent and not willing to make changes is because of the community means removing any accountability from Larian. And Larian has some accountability.
Posted By: Tuco Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 31/05/21 06:33 PM
People tend to be more vocal about things they are unsatisfied about than the ones they are happy about (and when it comes to things they are indifferent about it's not even a contest, really). That's true basically in any context.
And I'd argue there's also plenty of good reasons for it. Screaming your happiness at the top of your lungs is not exactly going to do you any favor, while asking for "problems to be fixed" has a clear self-serving purpose.

About the tone... Well, I'm not the biggest fan of tone policing in general as far as certain lines aren't crossed, but I'd like to point that there's a reason if the overall mood was WAY more cheerful in the first weeks of this EA and some users (myself included) drifted more and more on the surface of dark, never ending sea of bitterness as time went on.
Larian simply didn't live up to its promise to keep in contact with the community and have a two-ways communication with the user base.

For the most part, we started pointing flaws and "asking nicely" if something could be done about them, then we watched with a certain amount of perplexity the studio completely overlooking every point made by the community for the nine successive months.
They never even acknowledged several of the major, recurring points of criticism, let alone bothering arguing in favor of their choices and why they were even made in the first place.
What we got is a bunch of "Oh oh oh, you guys surely love to get laid and pet the dog. Also, eating mushrooms now is a free action and here's some loaded dices".

it's hilarious to me that we have even part of the user base being pesky because "People always complain about the same things".
Yeah, I mean, these "same things" are all still true nine months later, aren't they? And they didn't stop being bad just because at some point discouragement will prevail and we will eventually grow tired of talking about them.
Posted By: mrfuji3 Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 31/05/21 06:34 PM
Originally Posted by The Composer
...This also drives people to reply where someone seems to share their opinion, or to try and 'enlighten' anyone who disagrees. It's also perfectly human to be defensive about one's opinions, and sometimes fall victim to perceiving an opposing voice as an attack or dismissal, and some people indeed quite literally do this, in either direction.

The point I'm ultimately trying to make is, online forums has the odds stacked against it of often being dominated by variants of criticism or "negativity", often because it's the most passionate fans that in their own way just want something they love to be even more loveable, somewhere deep down, even though others may perceive them as haters.

I want to focus on Larian forums specifically, to "win an argument" here, in the only way that matters in the end of the day imo, is to influence the developers. Most people get stuck in interpersonal squabble instead of focusing on what matters; Making the developer want to read, instead of dismiss it as "angry irrational people". ...
I feel like this take is de-emphasizing something critical: forum discussion and arguments about ideas can change minds, help generate new ideas, and/or tangent into related but also important topics. Challenging ideas (through negativity/critique) can be very useful for figuring out what's important and refining our own ideas. At the very least, forum arguments will give Larian a broad view of many reasons for/against certain mechanics.

On this forum, we are (ideally) both trying to provide feedback to Larian but also trying to convince others of our viewpoints. Why? Because then our viewpoints will have more support=more forum posts agreeing with said idea=more likely for Larian to make changes. Personally, I've had my mind changed on a few topics through discussions/arguments, or at the very least was able to see something in a different light.

Negativity by itself isn't bad, as critique of things is the ~only way they improve. The problem is when that negativity is unconstructive or it's directed toward other posters instead of the game.
Posted By: The Composer Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 31/05/21 06:38 PM
Sigi is quite right. No one is driven away. It's merely a comment of my observations on what I believe makes online communications more likely to reach the ears that we hope hears it. I'm on your team, or try to be, in that I just want people to be heard, and not undermined by what I call "noise". A thread that frequently requires moderation, is generally less likely to be heard because of the noise drowning out what is often good tidbits of thought underneath. Reducing the noise is a win for everyone smile I've been rather involved with collecting and assimilating feedback myself, and through that I have no concern that feedback isn't being listened to. Whether or not the hundreds of pages inspires design decisions on its respective fronts is another matter at the design team's discretion. Personally I'll take my wins on what ever does influence design decisions, and trust that smarter people than me have had better reasons against it for the things that didn't make the whiteboard. No game is 100% perfect on all the things I*d want anyway, and that is likely true for most people. Anyway...

It'd be cool with more frequent communication of some form, I loved Bungie back in the day during Halo 2/3 era when they posted things. Wasn't anything specific necessarily, but was fun reads to make the torturous wait of anticipation and excitement just a little less... Slow. But there are many reasons that I understand why you wouldn't want to go into specifics, too. I am looking forward to what ever the next community update holds though.
Posted By: The Composer Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 31/05/21 06:40 PM
Originally Posted by mrfuji3
Negativity by itself isn't bad, as critique of things is the ~only way they improve. The problem is when that negativity is unconstructive or it's directed toward other posters instead of the game.

Exactly ^^ The word 'negativity' is always a difficult one to me. But you're exactly right, and it's basically what I mean. Noise is bleh, challenging and interesting discussion is fantastic.
Posted By: qwerrecd42 Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 31/05/21 08:35 PM
"It's merely a comment of my observations on what I believe makes online communications more likely to reach the ears that we hope hears it."

My experience with forum feedback in the other EA I'm participating in (Bannerlord) says the opposite, honestly. We only get responses and changes from Taleworlds when the frustration reaches a critical level. Otherwise they just kinda chug along doing whatever it is they're trying to do with Bannerlord and ignore the forum userbase completely, just like Larian is. We spent months being super polite and deferential with our feedback and to be frank, it didn't work. It was only when a large number of us started descending into bitterness and snark that we were finally able to get their attention and acknowledgement of our issues with the game, even though usually the answer is "this doesn't fit our vision for the game so we're rejecting it". That's a hell of a lot better than radio silence.
Posted By: Maximuuus Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 31/05/21 09:38 PM
The only reasons why constructive posts tends to dissapear in the "negativity" is the lack of communication and transperency.

There are a lot of passionated players about the game on this forums even if they can easily bring negativity on some thread (my bad, I know I can be one of them).
But well written and constructive posts, analysis, arguments and so on had been said too many times in too many different ways.

This product we're passionnated about is a lot of frustration and I'm not talking about patches, I'm only talking about communication.
We even don't know if anything is read... We just had a vague "yes someone is reading" one time.

I totally agree with qwerrecd42 : "this doesn't fit our vision for the game so we're rejecting it" is a hell of a lot better than radio silence.

A bit more transparency about Larian's vision would :
- reduce the frustration of many people
- help players to understand if the game could ever match their whishes or not
- help players to focus their feedbacks on constructive things

At the moment we just know nothing. We're all waiting for monthes going in circles.
Posted By: andreasrylander Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 31/05/21 09:54 PM
Yeah, it's starting to get weird how they totally ignore the community they claim to love, and should love. We deserve more communication I think. I still love Larian but... do they love us? =)
Posted By: Boblawblah Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 31/05/21 10:05 PM
Originally Posted by qwerrecd42
"It's merely a comment of my observations on what I believe makes online communications more likely to reach the ears that we hope hears it."

My experience with forum feedback in the other EA I'm participating in (Bannerlord) says the opposite, honestly. We only get responses and changes from Taleworlds when the frustration reaches a critical level. Otherwise they just kinda chug along doing whatever it is they're trying to do with Bannerlord and ignore the forum userbase completely, just like Larian is. We spent months being super polite and deferential with our feedback and to be frank, it didn't work. It was only when a large number of us started descending into bitterness and snark that we were finally able to get their attention and acknowledgement of our issues with the game, even though usually the answer is "this doesn't fit our vision for the game so we're rejecting it". That's a hell of a lot better than radio silence.

it's funny you mentioned Bannerlord. I was just looking at their forum. They actually have a thread made BY a dev that is a "Statement regarding plans for...'x feature'". They give a relatively detailed list of things they're working on and people are allowed to comment on it. Some are needlessly aggressive "IT'S BEEN 8 YEARS!!!" but most of the comments are relatively tame and polite, and I'm convinced that part of that is because the devs are actually responding to people in that very thread. Imagine if you could actually ask a dev "Hey, are there plans to have a more 5e based diffculty put into place?" and have a dev answer? Even if it was a non-committal "eh, we're thinking about it, but we need to get 'x' done first", i'm convinced people would really appreciate that level of contact.

look at some of these responses by the dev

"We are not currently plannıng such a feature."

"As bannermen noted, a few variables already tie into this albeit it is currently limited. We have discussed succession laws before and may still explore this aspect, but it is not part of our current priorities."

"Gang mechanics in the sense of owning alleys exist within the game for notables currently. If time permits, we may explore player owned alleys further."

"Mexxico knows these parts well, yes. (When I came to the company some 2 years ago, he explained the WarScore calculation to me smile )

While I am not too involved in the issues you are referencing, I would hardly call the AI as such. He has spent a fair bit of time on improving it already but in a world as open ended / dynamic as ours it can be challenging to achieve decision making that is always sensible. Not to mention that in some cases it's a matter of preference (aka the player feels like the AI should have made peace because they lost a number of battles, but the AI "knows" that the numbers are still in its favor). Which isn't to say that it cannot be improved."

these are all in response to actual players asking questions. it's not just PR talk either, you can tel they actually read the posts. They don't answer every post, or even post every day, but having some contact at all would help immensely in my opinion.
Posted By: The Composer Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 31/05/21 10:13 PM
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
[...]
We even don't know if anything is read... We just had a vague "yes someone is reading" one time.

I hear ya. I'd love more tidbits too from a public front. I've mentioned it on the forums once or twice before, that it's definitely being read, listened to and scribbled down, because I've involved myself in that and cooperate with some people in forwarding feedback. I doubt my word on that matters much, but if you take my word for it, I can tell you it's read by more people than me. I'm not using that as an argument or defense for the lack of communication that you wish would be different. Just wish to hopefully lift your spirits however much I can in that I dread even imagining the job of the people that has to read all the hundred of pages that's been pushed since October.

It'd be cool to hear more about the design decisions and directions that are set in stone, but I imagine that'd have to be on a rather high-level tone, because it's thousands of paragraphs worth of unique feedback collected, so addressing every one of them would be... Unrealistic I think.

The TL;DR I believe I take from it is that the listening is happening, that's something I can put the worth of my word on, the dissatisfaction for communicating how that data is processed, or what solution might be best for it isn't something I'm prepared to speculate on. I'd have many thoughts on pros and cons in regards to it, and challenges surrounding it, but that wouldn't matter in the end of the day.


Originally Posted by Maximuuus
[...]

A bit more transparency about Larian's vision would :
- reduce the frustration of many people
- help players to understand if the game could ever match their whishes or not
- help players to focus their feedbacks on constructive things

At the moment we just know nothing. We're all waiting for monthes going in circles.

Absolutely. I've moaned about it myself, wanting more focus on discussing EA related feedback in community updates, My fingers remain crossed. grin


Originally Posted by Boblawblah
[... Lots of cool examples cut for readability...]

these are all in response to actual players asking questions. it's not just PR talk either, you can tel they actually read the posts. They don't answer every post, or even post every day, but having some contact at all would help immensely in my opinion.

Yes please! Am I right to assume that's a fair example of how people would generally want more of from Larian? I mean, the type of responses. I'm not asking you specifically, Bobla, I already assume that's the case. But I'd love to get a verification from others, just so I can build a case and point to it for reference.
Posted By: mrfuji3 Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 31/05/21 10:25 PM
Originally Posted by The Composer
Originally Posted by Boblawblah
[... Lots of cool examples cut for readability...]

these are all in response to actual players asking questions. it's not just PR talk either, you can tel they actually read the posts. They don't answer every post, or even post every day, but having some contact at all would help immensely in my opinion.

Yes please! Am I right to assume that's a fair example of how people would generally want more of from Larian? I mean, the type of responses. I'm not asking you specifically, Bobla, I already assume that's the case. But I'd love to get a verification from others, just so I can build a case and point to it for reference.
Strong +1 from me!
Info on what things they're considering, what they are almost certainly not going to include, what they want to implement but might not have time for, etc. Those types of responses for Larian would be amazing. Either AMA-style where they respond to certain questions or bulk-feedback style where they specifically mention common topics on the forums/reddit would be great.
Posted By: Alexandrite Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 31/05/21 10:26 PM
Originally Posted by The Composer
Yes please! Am I right to assume that's a fair example of how people would generally want more of from Larian? I mean, the type of responses. I'm not asking you specifically, Bobla, I already assume that's the case. But I'd love to get a verification from others, just so I can build a case and point to it for reference.

Yes, please - if you're able to whisper in Larian's ears at all, please please relay to them how deafening their silence is to their devoted player base.

Just some kind of contact - a tease here, a tweet there, a "we're working on something really cool, stay tuned" - and then a follow up with something, anything at all. It has been almost 3 weeks since they last promised a community update (last hotfix according to SteamDB was 19 days ago, so coming up to 3 weeks) and no community update has materialised as yet. If they've had another flood, or programming bugs that are difficult to squash, or they've run into any kind of difficulty, we'd still love to know what is happening. I'm sure anyone who's ever touched a computer knows how difficult programming bugs can be, so they would find more sympathy here than derision. If COVID has impacted on their plans or delayed things, again we'd understand, there's still a global pandemic going on - or perhaps, we'd love to hear about how they are overcoming those challenges.

I understand they may have NDAs that they cannot break or reveal details until Big Patch Reveal time comes, but no one here is asking for details or spoilers - just some contact, any at all.
Posted By: etonbears Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 31/05/21 10:45 PM
Originally Posted by The Composer
Originally Posted by mrfuji3
Negativity by itself isn't bad, as critique of things is the ~only way they improve. The problem is when that negativity is unconstructive or it's directed toward other posters instead of the game.

Exactly ^^ The word 'negativity' is always a difficult one to me. But you're exactly right, and it's basically what I mean. Noise is bleh, challenging and interesting discussion is fantastic.

Indeed. I have hundreds of games, and every single one has some aspect for which I could express a negative/critical opinion. But despite that, I like and enjoyed playing most of them, and actually regret the purchase of only a handful.

The same is true of BG3; I know the game *will* have aspects I am negative about, and nothing I can say will change that, no matter how eloquent the justification. But even if the game does not change at all ( aside from content completion, of course ) I will not regret the purchase. If I can influence the inclusion of optional features that appeal to me, that will be even better.

In terms of the topic of this particular thread, I'd have to say I was expecting content patches only a few times a year; I don't remember any promise of 2 weeks.

But, at the same time, I don't think Larian have really understood that moving into the major studio category probably means they need to re-examine how they interface with their audience. A community manager actively engaging with the most pressing questions on the major discussion platforms would probably be far more valuable than infrequent "Panel from Hell" presentations that don't directly address those questions at all.
Posted By: qwerrecd42 Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 31/05/21 10:52 PM
I mean even then they wouldn't have to change how they interact with us if they dropped the EA process (and didn't release anything until it was already done) and didn't promise they would be interacting with us. They're trying to have their cake and eat it too, and seem to be succeeding.
Posted By: The Composer Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 31/05/21 11:03 PM
Originally Posted by qwerrecd42
I mean even then they wouldn't have to change how they interact with us if they dropped the EA process (and didn't release anything until it was already done) and didn't promise they would be interacting with us. They're trying to have their cake and eat it too, and seem to be succeeding.

Got to start somewhere, right? Would what Boblawblah shared be a nice approach in your opinion?
Posted By: Sabra Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 31/05/21 11:13 PM
+1 from me! Communication, even if just to tell us to hold tight cause they're hard at work, is good!
Posted By: qwerrecd42 Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 31/05/21 11:21 PM
Originally Posted by The Composer
Originally Posted by qwerrecd42
I mean even then they wouldn't have to change how they interact with us if they dropped the EA process (and didn't release anything until it was already done) and didn't promise they would be interacting with us. They're trying to have their cake and eat it too, and seem to be succeeding.

Got to start somewhere, right? Would what Boblawblah shared be a nice approach in your opinion?

That'd be a start yeah. Like I said even "No" is better than radio silence.

I was more specifically speaking to the extra expectations that they created by doing this whole thing via EA and that they wouldn't have those expectations if they didn't do EA.

Of course if they didn't do it via EA then they also wouldn't have all that up front money from early sales. Hence the "have your cake and eat it too" comment.
Posted By: Alexandrite Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 31/05/21 11:36 PM
The other thing is - many people are being/sounding very negative right now BECAUSE of the lack of communication from Larian. It is a fast paced world and people are now accustomed to communication via social media and the internet in general. Having a 3 week gap of complete and utter silence is going to cause a spike of anxiety in some people, and people will jump to negative conclusions - and then go on to other forums and spread that negativity.

Now, I'm not saying Larian is directly responsible for the mental health of its fans - they are not, of course. But communication can - and does - shape the perception of the company and game in general. You don't want to create negative publicity by remaining completely silent about a game that people love - some communication, any communication from them about how things are going, whether development is on track or even if it's not on track, will help to shape that publicity into a positive route. Otherwise people's imaginations will just run away with them.
And if development has hit a snag or an annoying bug somewhere, admitting that will go far towards making the studio feel like Real People to its fans, and not some Strong Silent Type that Never Admits Mistakes. Many brands and companies now cultivate a social media presence that relies on making the brand feel real and relatable.
Posted By: InkTide Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 01/06/21 02:32 AM
A lot of game devs meet player feedback with the preconception that their personal thoughts on game systems override those of players, because "they aren't making the game, so their feedback is worth less than those who do", and as a result many feel justifying their changes is unnecessary. This is, for obvious reasons, entirely missing the point of player feedback and a very unhealthy stance to take with your community (it practically guarantees an increase in hostile player feedback because cordial feedback is ignored, for one).

This often manifests in a general unwillingness to communicate, which is compounded by unwillingness that is artificially created by things like employee NDAs/non-compete contracts. There are a lot of unfortunate pressures within a corporation working against actually responding to and considering feedback.

Larian's obsession with telemetry suggests to me that those pressures have won out in their internal corporate culture, and they resort to anonymous data gathering as the primary/solitary source of 'feedback' they actually consider, but the early access model requires at least a veneer of accepting feedback because part of what you're selling is player involvement in the development process (whether you officially admit it or not). Protip, Larian: telemetry alone is not feedback - collecting all the stats in the game tells you almost nothing useful if the game those stats were collected from is incomplete. Collecting stats from your existing incomplete product is, however, an extremely effective way to create the delusion that simply regurgitating statistically meaningless stats from a deeply unfinished project counts as 'listening to players', and anyone who verbally disagrees with your decisions is 'just a troll' or 'doesn't understand the game'.

Game publishers suck at communication because corporations in general suck at it, often shooting themselves in the foot out of over-prioritization of legal protection (and dubiously legal wealth protection in the form of NDAs/non-compete contracts). Unfortunately, in order to have an effective Early Access phase, you need to be able to communicate well. It's gotten so bad in the games industry that sometimes I genuinely wonder if every game publisher marketing/PR department, along with much of their upper management, needs to just be purged and replaced.

IMO, the bottom line is something Wikipedia figured out years ago: always assume good faith before you assume anything else. Nobody gets mad at game companies because they don't want the product to be better - the people providing specific complaints (even ones about meta-issues like communication) and suggestions are doing so because they care about the quality of your work, and every time their issues are met with silence, you've done damage to the most engaged and invested parts of your community by saying in effect that their efforts to express their thoughts mean so little to you that they aren't even worth acknowledging. At the same time, every bit of information you provide about internal reasons for certain decisions allows those parts of your community to improve the relevance and specificity of the feedback. Truly functional feedback is not two one way streets - a street sending games to players and another street sending game telemetry from players to you - it's a collaborative effort that requires the game makers to have respect for the opinions and experiences of players at least as much as it requires players to respect the game makers' decisions. In a decade of watching the games industry, I've genuinely never seen a widespread lack of player respect for devs be a problem - on the contrary, players will bend over backwards to avoid putting any blame for even clear software errors on the devs, usually citing crunch/stress/mismanagement as the true culprit (they are also usually correct). Players assume good faith from devs so broadly and reliably it's incredible how often that simple idea serves as common ground for even vehemently arguing players - it'd be nice to see more game publishers reciprocate that respect when it comes to feedback, rather than continue to take the passion their players share with them completely for granted by making only the bare minimum effort to respond (or less).
Posted By: CJMPinger Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 01/06/21 03:11 AM
The thing I am hoping is that they have people lurking here but not responding so they actually are collecting the feedback...
Posted By: Alexandrite Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 01/06/21 04:28 AM
Originally Posted by InkTide
A lot of game devs meet player feedback with the preconception that their personal thoughts on game systems override those of players, because "they aren't making the game, so their feedback is worth less than those who do", and as a result many feel justifying their changes is unnecessary. This is, for obvious reasons, entirely missing the point of player feedback and a very unhealthy stance to take with your community (it practically guarantees an increase in hostile player feedback because cordial feedback is ignored, for one).

This often manifests in a general unwillingness to communicate,

That's an awful lot of generalisation and assumptions, right there. frown


Originally Posted by InkTide
which is compounded by unwillingness that is artificially created by things like employee NDAs/non-compete contracts. There are a lot of unfortunate pressures within a corporation working against actually responding to and considering feedback.

NDAs an corporate bureaucracy is probably closer to the truth - for many businesses anyway.
My workplace is also all very secret-squirrel for absolutely no reason, which doesn't make for a good working environment when you're not even allowed to talk to members of a different team serving the same end customer, you have to go through Management to get your message through and then answered. I really hope Larian is not like this.


Originally Posted by InkTide
Larian's obsession with telemetry suggests to me that those pressures have won out in their internal corporate culture, and they resort to anonymous data gathering as the primary/solitary source of 'feedback' they actually consider, but the early access model requires at least a veneer of accepting feedback because part of what you're selling is player involvement in the development process (whether you officially admit it or not). Protip, Larian: telemetry alone is not feedback - collecting all the stats in the game tells you almost nothing useful if the game those stats were collected from is incomplete. Collecting stats from your existing incomplete product is, however, an extremely effective way to create the delusion that simply regurgitating statistically meaningless stats from a deeply unfinished project counts as 'listening to players', and anyone who verbally disagrees with your decisions is 'just a troll' or 'doesn't understand the game'.

Well, I am very much looking forward to that community update they promised, which is supposed to go more in depth about exactly this. I'd very much like to know more details so will withhold judgment.
However, we can't just dismiss telemetry and data out of hand - as someone else on the forums also recently pointed out, it is largely the same crowd of people who come to the forums every day to participate in discussions. The opinions of the most active/vocal forum members may not represent the opinions of the rest of the thousands of players of this game who might never come to the forums to make a comment... they play the game, enjoy it, and that's it. And I am glad they do have telemetry and data feeding back to them from the game as we all play it, as this is pretty amazing technology really. The main thing that I'd like to know is how do they interpret that data. And that's why I'm looking forward to the update... soon(TM). sigh.


Originally Posted by InkTide
in order to have an effective Early Access phase, you need to be able to communicate well.

100% agree with that bit.
Posted By: Sigi98 Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 01/06/21 07:46 AM
Originally Posted by Alexandrite
Originally Posted by The Composer
Yes please! Am I right to assume that's a fair example of how people would generally want more of from Larian? I mean, the type of responses. I'm not asking you specifically, Bobla, I already assume that's the case. But I'd love to get a verification from others, just so I can build a case and point to it for reference.

Yes, please - if you're able to whisper in Larian's ears at all, please please relay to them how deafening their silence is to their devoted player base.

Just some kind of contact - a tease here, a tweet there, a "we're working on something really cool, stay tuned" - and then a follow up with something, anything at all. It has been almost 3 weeks since they last promised a community update (last hotfix according to SteamDB was 19 days ago, so coming up to 3 weeks) and no community update has materialised as yet. If they've had another flood, or programming bugs that are difficult to squash, or they've run into any kind of difficulty, we'd still love to know what is happening. I'm sure anyone who's ever touched a computer knows how difficult programming bugs can be, so they would find more sympathy here than derision. If COVID has impacted on their plans or delayed things, again we'd understand, there's still a global pandemic going on - or perhaps, we'd love to hear about how they are overcoming those challenges.

I understand they may have NDAs that they cannot break or reveal details until Big Patch Reveal time comes, but no one here is asking for details or spoilers - just some contact, any at all.

Yes I couldn't agree more with this post!
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 01/06/21 08:19 AM
Originally Posted by Alexandrite
Originally Posted by The Composer
Yes please! Am I right to assume that's a fair example of how people would generally want more of from Larian? I mean, the type of responses. I'm not asking you specifically, Bobla, I already assume that's the case. But I'd love to get a verification from others, just so I can build a case and point to it for reference.
Yes, please - if you're able to whisper in Larian's ears at all, please please relay to them how deafening their silence is to their devoted player base.

Just some kind of contact - a tease here, a tweet there, a "we're working on something really cool, stay tuned" - and then a follow up with something, anything at all. It has been almost 3 weeks since they last promised a community update (last hotfix according to SteamDB was 19 days ago, so coming up to 3 weeks) and no community update has materialised as yet. If they've had another flood, or programming bugs that are difficult to squash, or they've run into any kind of difficulty, we'd still love to know what is happening. I'm sure anyone who's ever touched a computer knows how difficult programming bugs can be, so they would find more sympathy here than derision. If COVID has impacted on their plans or delayed things, again we'd understand, there's still a global pandemic going on - or perhaps, we'd love to hear about how they are overcoming those challenges.

I understand they may have NDAs that they cannot break or reveal details until Big Patch Reveal time comes, but no one here is asking for details or spoilers - just some contact, any at all.
Agreed ...
Or if they feel like it, AMA is also quite popular method of comunication. :P

I remember there was one last year ...
Maybe we should repeat that sometimes? O:)
Posted By: Maximuuus Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 01/06/21 08:33 AM
Originally Posted by Alexandrite
Originally Posted by InkTide
Larian's obsession with telemetry suggests to me that those pressures have won out in their internal corporate culture, and they resort to anonymous data gathering as the primary/solitary source of 'feedback' they actually consider, but the early access model requires at least a veneer of accepting feedback because part of what you're selling is player involvement in the development process (whether you officially admit it or not). Protip, Larian: telemetry alone is not feedback - collecting all the stats in the game tells you almost nothing useful if the game those stats were collected from is incomplete. Collecting stats from your existing incomplete product is, however, an extremely effective way to create the delusion that simply regurgitating statistically meaningless stats from a deeply unfinished project counts as 'listening to players', and anyone who verbally disagrees with your decisions is 'just a troll' or 'doesn't understand the game'.

Well, I am very much looking forward to that community update they promised, which is supposed to go more in depth about exactly this. I'd very much like to know more details so will withhold judgment.
However, we can't just dismiss telemetry and data out of hand - as someone else on the forums also recently pointed out, it is largely the same crowd of people who come to the forums every day to participate in discussions. The opinions of the most active/vocal forum members may not represent the opinions of the rest of the thousands of players of this game who might never come to the forums to make a comment... they play the game, enjoy it, and that's it. And I am glad they do have telemetry and data feeding back to them from the game as we all play it, as this is pretty amazing technology really. The main thing that I'd like to know is how do they interpret that data. And that's why I'm looking forward to the update... soon(TM). sigh.

I think the "how" was what Ink was pointing at.

We already discussed this but in an interview Swen said that "you cant sell bless" to players. I'm close to sure that their telemetry will show that many players just don't use bless, or faery fire to give another exemple.
Is that because those spells aren't interresting at all ? is that because the game makes them uninterresting ? Is that because players don"t know what those spells can be usefull for ? That's questions telemetry cannot give any answer.

I think these data can be very valuable especially when they explained a few monhes ago that they use them to understand if the hidden area are not "too hidden".
Or to see if players are playing the story as intended, if there are issues and so on... But a lot of these data could mean very different things to different people when you're talking about the mechanics and that's really dangerous according to me.

The game's balance (difficulty, mechanics,...) is a real problem in the game and looking at "where players dies more often" won't help to understand that.
To understand that you have to play the game a lot, really learn how it works and probably play the game in a solo playthrough. I'm not sure anything else than player's feedback can be valuable in that case.

But yea, let's wait to read them "soon" to have more details smile

Originally Posted by Alexandrite
Originally Posted by The Composer
Yes please! Am I right to assume that's a fair example of how people would generally want more of from Larian? I mean, the type of responses. I'm not asking you specifically, Bobla, I already assume that's the case. But I'd love to get a verification from others, just so I can build a case and point to it for reference.

Yes, please - if you're able to whisper in Larian's ears at all, please please relay to them how deafening their silence is to their devoted player base.

Just some kind of contact - a tease here, a tweet there, a "we're working on something really cool, stay tuned" - and then a follow up with something, anything at all. It has been almost 3 weeks since they last promised a community update (last hotfix according to SteamDB was 19 days ago, so coming up to 3 weeks) and no community update has materialised as yet. If they've had another flood, or programming bugs that are difficult to squash, or they've run into any kind of difficulty, we'd still love to know what is happening. I'm sure anyone who's ever touched a computer knows how difficult programming bugs can be, so they would find more sympathy here than derision. If COVID has impacted on their plans or delayed things, again we'd understand, there's still a global pandemic going on - or perhaps, we'd love to hear about how they are overcoming those challenges.

I understand they may have NDAs that they cannot break or reveal details until Big Patch Reveal time comes, but no one here is asking for details or spoilers - just some contact, any at all.

Huge +1 for me too.
Posted By: qwerrecd42 Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 01/06/21 08:36 AM
If Larian really got themselves in such a restrictive set of NDA's that they can't communicate with the userbase with any semblance of regularity *during an Early Access game development*, then I seriously question the competence of their legal team and their management.
Posted By: Maximuuus Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 01/06/21 08:41 AM
Originally Posted by qwerrecd42
If Larian really got themselves in such a restrictive set of NDA's that they can't communicate with the userbase with any semblance of regularity *during an Early Access game development*, then I seriously question the competence of their legal team and their management.

They could probably answer a lot of questions but there's a lot of things we can imagine they don't want to / can talk about.

- when a specific class will be released
- how specific spells will be implemented
- how many companions or races will there be in the end
- which mechanic they plan to rework
-...

The game is still in developpment. COVID don't help and they probably have a lot of things to discuss / adjust / rework / ...
They probably also have more money than intended so maybe they have to discuss about new features and so on.

Keep in mind that the game is probably in early access for them too.
Posted By: vometia Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 01/06/21 08:50 AM
Originally Posted by The Composer
Also, I'll suspend myself for making who ever makes it this far suffer with a TL;DR wall of stuff that probably could be about nine paragraphs shorter - Though I'll excuse myself with a 5 day tenure of insufferable heat and no wind. Please send help.

I could send booze, which I'm sure would help. Because I'm sensible like that. Why, yes, I am that person who forgot to drink anything but coffee and spent most of the past fortnight with a dehydration-induced migraine, why do you ask?
Posted By: The Composer Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 01/06/21 09:11 AM
There are other drinks than coffee?

Whoa.
Posted By: Tuco Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 01/06/21 11:03 AM
Not to be (always) the party pooper but I want to oppose the ongoing agreement that even just a couple of teases on twitter and some generic "We are working really hard on cool things" would be enough.
Frankly that wouldn't be particularly different from what we are getting now. And having frequent and regular but ultimately hollow statements from the studio wouldn't really be a meaningful improvement.

What I'd like to see is clear statements about their short, mid and long terms goals. Nothing too detailed, frankly. I wouldn't be asking for minute weekly reports on every single bugfix or anything of that sort.
Frankly even an update every three months (or more) would be perfectly fine as long as we can have a honest insight on what's being worked on, as far as I'm concerned.

It's more a matter of addressing broad topics in less ambiguous terms.
Examples could be:

- "There is a general agreement that controls in the game are fairly bad [and no, it's not just my personal bias, there's almost universal agreement wherever the topic comes up. Even and maybe ESPECIALLY out of this forum]. This is how we see the current state, this is what we are going to do, this is what we are NOT going to do, these are possible tentative fixes" etc.
- "People have strong opinions about these mechanical changes made to the combat. Here's where the problem lies, how we at Larian perceive the current situation, and what we will attempt to solve the matter or what we are definitely NOT going to do".
- "These specific things people are complaining about are just placeholders. Don't worry about them".
- Given that even among "causals" way more people seem to be in favor of a 6-slot party than the ones that are against it, what's the ACTUAL rationale behind the complete refuse to give the option a try for official support rather than "leaving it to modders"? A honest insight on what are the perceived challenges here could help to understand what's the obstacle to solve and what compromises can be made.

On a more generic, less "problem-solving" oriented note, examples of meaningful pointers of what's coming could be "The next update will focus on improving performances and/or introducing new content and/or changing core mechanics and/or speeding up and improving the AI and/or improving the UI in the sequent number of ways".
Also, are new races and classes coming any time soon? Are they still coming ONE at the time? IF they are coming, great, if not that's fine but it wouldn't hurt to know in advance and set expectations accordingly.

What about the level cap? Is it set in stone that it will remain at 4 as long as we will be in EA or is the 5th level and the deluge of new spells/mechanics it would introduce for testing purpose something that is being considered for future updates?

I could go on for a while, but I think I more or less made my point.
We aren't really asking to rob the developers of their working time to indulge in our constant thirst for attention, but I think there's a reasonable middle ground here that could be reached in terms of transparency.
Posted By: gaymer Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 01/06/21 12:20 PM
3 weeks since they said community update. What kind of organization does this? 100 days since Patch 4 the next milestone.
Posted By: Icelyn Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 01/06/21 01:10 PM
A Reddit AMA or a thread on this forum where they answered questions would be great. smile
Posted By: Blackheifer Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 01/06/21 01:40 PM
I know Larian enjoys talking about the stuff they are working on. These are people that love what they do and they are not shy about it. So I have been curious about the unusually long silence.

I am not too worried as I am sure they are burning the days and nights doing some amazing world-building but I do get excited when they have big reveals. I think there are a lot of good people here who are equally passionate about the work they do. Many of us realize this is an incredibly ambitious work - in fact - THE most ambitious project they have ever undertaken.

And this is just my opinion - based on the 800+ hours I have played, based on the all the great people I have met and hung out with in multiplayer, based on all the late night sessions when we have been laughing so hard in discord that we were tearing up, based on how much joy that this game has given me even in single player exploring different roles and endings and finding new things -and that is I think this is going to be the Game of the Decade when it is finished.

I would strongly encourage them to invest in a development diary of some sort that gets regular updates. That way we can also enjoy the journey to the finished product including the challenges and the triumphs together.
Posted By: Abits Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 01/06/21 01:42 PM
Originally Posted by Tuco
Not to be (always) the party pooper but I want to oppose the ongoing agreement that even just a couple of teases on twitter and some generic "We are working really hard on cool things" would be enough.
Frankly that wouldn't be particularly different from what we are getting now. And having frequent and regular but ultimately hollow statements from the studio wouldn't really be a meaningful improvement.

What I'd like to see is clear statements about their short, mid and long terms goals. Nothing too detailed, frankly. I wouldn't be asking for minute weekly reports on every single bugfix or anything of that sort.
Frankly even an update every three months (or more) would be perfectly fine as long as we can have a honest insight on what's being worked on, as far as I'm concerned.
This. As far as I see it, the biggest problem I see with the way Larian studios conduct themselves is the very long silence. Look at this topic for instance. If you go to page 2 you will see a comment I made in November (!) where I was fairly optimistic and outright antagonistic towards the guy who opened this topic for being impatient. fast forward six months and his impatience don't seem so exaggerated anymore. Even if I would say Larian did occasionally communicated, they did it in a very unhelpful way, and honestly, it is somewhat even more upsetting that you wait a few months for a big list of statistic anecdotes that tell you nothing about the development process.

If Larian will reveal some of their roadmap maybe some people will lose interest when they'll discover some of their desired changes ain't gonna happen. But if they'll keep doing what they're doing, eventually people will grow bitter and annoyed. And this goes back to my previous comment to the Composer. If you treat your community like that, don't be surprised when people start to be upset and unpleasant.
Posted By: qwerrecd42 Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 01/06/21 04:17 PM
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Originally Posted by qwerrecd42
If Larian really got themselves in such a restrictive set of NDA's that they can't communicate with the userbase with any semblance of regularity *during an Early Access game development*, then I seriously question the competence of their legal team and their management.

They could probably answer a lot of questions but there's a lot of things we can imagine they don't want to / can talk about.

- when a specific class will be released
- how specific spells will be implemented
- how many companions or races will there be in the end
- which mechanic they plan to rework
-...

The game is still in developpment. COVID don't help and they probably have a lot of things to discuss / adjust / rework / ...
They probably also have more money than intended so maybe they have to discuss about new features and so on.

Keep in mind that the game is probably in early access for them too.

I was speaking strictly to the idea that "NDA could be why they're barely communicating", saying that if that's the case then their legal team apparently sucks to get them under such a restrictive NDA while making an Early Access game (a process that relies on communication with the community)
Posted By: Blade238 Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 01/06/21 05:38 PM
Originally Posted by Abits
If Larian will reveal some of their roadmap maybe some people will lose interest when they'll discover some of their desired changes ain't gonna happen. But if they'll keep doing what they're doing, eventually people will grow bitter and annoyed. And this goes back to my previous comment to the Composer. If you treat your community like that, don't be surprised when people start to be upset and unpleasant.
Like I said on a previous page, had I known how poorly they would be communicating and handling this EA, I would never have paid in for it. There's been nothing tangible to make me come back since the initial release.

Compare this to OwlCats with WotR and the progress they've made with alpha testing. I wouldn't even need to see a single statement from that company because they actually release new content for testing in the form of dialogue, classes, mythic paths, chapters, etc.

The difference in funding and studio size is crazy too. Larian drew me in with Divinity and lost me with BG3.
Posted By: Abits Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 01/06/21 05:44 PM
I'm not in favour of these comparisons for the same reasons I explained Ragnarok. All I know for certain is that almost complete silence between patches, with no substantial information even during community updates is unacceptable.
Posted By: etonbears Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 01/06/21 09:03 PM
Ah, I think I understand Larian's problem now. They killed their off their previous community manager....



Posted By: qwerrecd42 Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 01/06/21 09:18 PM
I'm also quite against the "only release Act 1" version of EA Larian has going since that leaves you with zero feedback or community testing of the rest of the game. But that's probably an even more impossible ship to turn around than the communication thing.
Posted By: DragonSnooz Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 01/06/21 10:09 PM
Originally Posted by The Composer
Though there is to some extent a... Let's call it "Negativity bias" for a lack of a better term, I'm sure there is one. In online forums, people tend to be more driven towards voicing their opinions if it's of a "negative" nature- Actually let's call it criticism, that's often what the intent is. I don't actually want to throw shade on any group of people here, rather share an experience.

It's more likely for someone to find the motivation and interest in navigating to an online forum... The point I'm ultimately trying to make is, online forums has the odds stacked against it of often being dominated by variants of criticism or "negativity", often because it's the most passionate fans that in their own way just want something they love to be even more loveable, somewhere deep down, even though others may perceive them as haters.
From personal experience with customer and inter-office responses there definitely is a negative spin to most responses. Response bias is mostly impossible to avoid, unless there are metrics available that are free of bias. It happens in online forums and a lot of other spaces, the main difference for online forums is that we are all veiled behind our profile pictures and usernames.
(There is a lean towards distrust, even when forum members agree. Just as how drivers want to immediately assume the other drivers are the issue, because all they see is a car, not the human being. It's hard for users to read this in my voice or to humanize my posts.)

Originally Posted by The Composer
I want to focus on Larian forums specifically, to "win an argument" here, in the only way that matters in the end of the day imo, is to influence the developers. Most people get stuck in interpersonal squabble instead of focusing on what matters...
So I believe it should be narrated in 2nd person present-tense, so that the player has a stronger sense of driving the story and making the choices as they go themselves." - No squabble, no frustrated rants about how they're bad developers or ruin D&D or how everyone that disagrees with me is ignorant, or get stuck on calling them out for ad hominems, strawmans, or any other non-sense. Just keeping the eye on the ball, and presenting a rational argument.
I will try but writing in the second person has never been my strength xD
I'd like to think I've avoided ad hominems or strawmen for the most part. But that can get challenging if there ever is a prolonged back-and-forth.
As you write in the next quote, it's easiest if the discussion stays focused on the topic or the critique itself.

Originally Posted by The Composer
Now I'm doubtful that my particular message was in any means impactful...
but I believe level-headed discussion that focuses on the merit of the criticism, rather than other participants of the debate, goes a long way. In fact, I believe that undermines the criticism more than anything, and I dare say most people share their criticism because they hope to see it make a difference. That's what I'm trying to say I suppose, that I want criticism and calls for action to actually inspire action, rather than to undermine itself by falling victim to typical weaknesses of the human psyche
It'd be great if discussions stayed on the discussion at hand.
Posted By: mr_planescapist Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 02/06/21 12:08 PM
Right now Pathfinder: Wrath of the righteous has me more excited then anything BG3 related...Mythic paths, freeking mounts combat! Become an ANGEL and ride a VELOCIRAPTOR into combat. Game looking pretty tight too.
Tons of branching dialogue options...no stupid cinematic TELLTALE drama...Turn base OR real time with pause...day/night cycles...SUPERB UI...dozens and dozens of classes...variety of interesting playable NPC that FEEL AND LOOK LIKE FANTASY chatacters. And a strong and extremely detailed rule set to back everything up.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 02/06/21 12:34 PM
And what exactly does this ad for a completely different game have to do with the theme?
Posted By: Abits Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 02/06/21 01:54 PM
I agree completely irrelevant unless you want to talk about the way owlcat treat their community.
Posted By: Maximuuus Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 02/06/21 01:59 PM
They're pretty good at that.

There is a new survey that was just released about the EA phase 2.
There are a lot of communication even if it may sometimes only be a facebook post about "someone's youtube video about the game" or "someone's amazing artwork".
There are also regular new trailer, patches and hotfix and they are pretty active on their discord server.
Posted By: Boblawblah Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 02/06/21 02:17 PM
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
And what exactly does this ad for a completely different game have to do with the theme?

the topic is the lack of a patch or any sort of communication from Larian, the developers of this game. In my opinion, comparing the situation to something similar (another similar game) where a developer IS communicating is quite relevant.
Posted By: vometia Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 02/06/21 02:21 PM
Originally Posted by Boblawblah
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
And what exactly does this ad for a completely different game have to do with the theme?

the "theme" is the lack of a patch or any sort of communication from Larian, the developers of this game. Comparing the situation to something similar (another similar game) where a developer IS communicating is quite relevant, wouldn't you say? wink smile

I think it's a bit generous to say that's what it was about. Although we're pretty relaxed about off-topic stuff, that was a pretty blatant attempt at derailing, so let's not, eh?
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 02/06/21 02:22 PM
Originally Posted by Boblawblah
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
And what exactly does this ad for a completely different game have to do with the theme?
the "theme" is the lack of a patch or any sort of communication from Larian, the developers of this game. Comparing the situation to something similar (another similar game) where a developer IS communicating is quite relevant, wouldn't you say? wink smile
Dunno ...
Once you start to compare it with another game, where developer is comunicating even less, people start yelling here that is not relevant. laugh
I would dare to say it should work both ways. laugh

And i dont quite understand why it should be simmilar game ...
The comunication, or silence have just the same result for comunity of all games ... no matter if they are developing RPG, Flying simulator, or First Person Shooter. O_o
Posted By: Boblawblah Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 02/06/21 02:24 PM
Originally Posted by vometia
that was a pretty blatant attempt at derailing, so let's not, eh?

touche, i'll edit the comment
Posted By: Tuco Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 02/06/21 02:27 PM
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by Boblawblah
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
And what exactly does this ad for a completely different game have to do with the theme?
the "theme" is the lack of a patch or any sort of communication from Larian, the developers of this game. Comparing the situation to something similar (another similar game) where a developer IS communicating is quite relevant, wouldn't you say? wink smile
Dunno ...
Once you start to compare it with another game, where developer is comunicating even less, people start yelling here that is not relevant. laugh
I would dare to say it should work both ways. laugh
Well, I have no idea of what you are talking about, exactly, but ask yourself: "Is the other game an Early Access as well, in the same genre, and is it doing great in comparison?" and then you may have your answer.
Posted By: Abits Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 02/06/21 02:44 PM
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
They're pretty good at that.

There is a new survey that was just released about the EA phase 2.
There are a lot of communication even if it may sometimes only be a facebook post about "someone's youtube video about the game" or "someone's amazing artwork".
There are also regular new trailer, patches and hotfix and they are pretty active on their discord server.
I agree with some (sort of) caveats:

First the community of WotR is very niche, both number wise and in their interests. That is not to say it is a bad community, far from it, but I felt in the time I was active there that there are very specific types of feedback that get addressed well (mostly gameplay related) and other things are harder to push for.

The thing is, that this is backed by the community, that seem to put the gameplay systems in the highest regard. And it is completely valid, since this is a pathfinder game and the backers know what they want.

I think the problem in our case is (and I can't believe I go back to it) is with the name Baldur's gate 3. If this was a divinity game, I feel like there were other expectations associated with the name Baldur's gate that aren't associated with divinity.

Of course it doesn't matter if there is no response whatsoever from Larian
Posted By: andreasrylander Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 02/06/21 03:08 PM
And that's the problem... there is no response whatsoever. I never imagined they would have ZERO communication with the community smirk
Posted By: Maximuuus Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 02/06/21 03:15 PM
Originally Posted by andreasrylander
And that's the problem... there is no response whatsoever. I never imagined they would have ZERO communication with the community smirk

Post before Ragnarok : There have been many communications. Just look here :
https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=postlist&Board=86&page=1

Just a joke sorry about that, I won't do it again smile
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 02/06/21 03:25 PM
I would not. :P
That is a list of changes. :P

But i appreciate the entusiasm, you made me smile. laugh
Posted By: Abits Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 02/06/21 04:22 PM
I just want to raise another issue about communication and good will in regards to owlcat. Take a look at this forum. Why is it that a big studio like Larian doesn't invest some minimal resources in upgrading these old forum systems? How come a much smaller studios like Owlcat has a much more comfortable and presentable forum systems? Just another example of how much Larian seem to care about their community.
Posted By: Sigi98 Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 02/06/21 04:40 PM
For everyone's sanities' sake, I would like to ask Larian to never use the word 'soon' ever again...
Posted By: Blade238 Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 02/06/21 04:41 PM
Originally Posted by Abits
I think the problem in our case is (and I can't believe I go back to it) is with the name Baldur's gate 3. If this was a divinity game, I feel like there were other expectations associated with the name Baldur's gate that aren't associated with divinity.

Of course it doesn't matter if there is no response whatsoever from Larian
This is a rather broad statement that I'd have to disagree with. It [at least appears to] makes the assumption that complaints are focused at it being a Baldur's Gate game rather than a Divinity sequel, when this isn't even the point of contention for the topic. Complaints are aimed at lack of added content and progress in EA, lack of communication and when there is communication, lack of meaningful communication.

There was a survey done early into the EA which showed only half of the participants on Reddit had even played Baldur's Gate, while 70% here reported the same. Personally, I've never played Baldur's Gate and I'd have no interest in it because I don't like RTwP. I'm here because of Divinity and turn-based RPG and not Baldur's Gate for instance. I have a difficult time believing the complaints which have nothing to do with the name or even the genre (this could be an FPS shooter and it wouldn't matter) are because it's Baldur's Gate and not Divinity.

We're eight months into EA now with basically nothing but a Druid class, some minor tweaks to companions and some comments regarding analytics that some are arguing seem to be willful misrepresentation of data. Meanwhile comparisons can be incredibly effective and important, especially because both are top-down RPG adaptations of PnP rulesets, both are being developed under Covid, both are in early access, etc. The only real differences being in developer size, funding (one is a kickstarter and the other is on the tail end of a successful release and backed by WotC) and scope (25 classes and Mythic paths vs 12 classes). Sadly, the one with seemingly more against it is the one that has been communicating and delivering content.

Meh, that's it for me on the subject though. I'm just massively disappointed in the prospect of an EA which is supposedly geared at getting feedback and testing and has not taken advantage of it or lived up to it. I'm rather concerned with the final release when there's still other classes and multiclassing to test, as well as plenty of other content.
Posted By: gaymer Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 02/06/21 05:06 PM
Larian announced another new office in Barcelona. This further gives me worry that they are still understaffed and well behind schedule due to unforeseen delays.
Posted By: DrDrizzyT Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 02/06/21 05:24 PM
Oh absolutely. And I'm getting a strong feeling that the lack of communication is somewhat born of fear of backlash when they finally DO put something out, only to show the community that they have essentially made no progress since February. All speculation of course, but it would make sense in context. Even if that is the case (obviously hypothetical) it would have been easier to digest if they would have put something out to the community stating the situation. Instead....total silence and uncertainty.

Now, if they drop Patch 5 like a nuclear bomb of content and changes, I will have gladly been proven wrong. But my money is on the former.
Posted By: Saito Hikari Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 02/06/21 06:13 PM
I'm not too sure WotR should be called niche when it raised more money on kickstarter than D:OS2 did. Maybe niche compared to the broad appeal/mass advertising that BG3 got, but a lot of things would be niche in a comparison like that.

Originally Posted by gaymer
Larian announced another new office in Barcelona. This further gives me worry that they are still understaffed and well behind schedule due to unforeseen delays.

I'd say 7 offices around the world is well beyond the point where people should stop treating Larian like they're some random indie developer. Maybe they're still indie in the absolute strictest definition, but there's a huge divide between a group of 10-20 people and like 350+ employees worldwide and counting. They hit it big, and grats to them, they're a stone's throw away from being a corporation now (if they aren't already, in everything but name).

Giving this some further consideration, a lot of studios tend to implode in this type of transition. Larian's going to have to be careful with this, lest they make the same mistakes the Witcher/Cyberpunk devs did.
Posted By: Abits Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 02/06/21 06:23 PM
Originally Posted by Blade238
Originally Posted by Abits
I think the problem in our case is (and I can't believe I go back to it) is with the name Baldur's gate 3. If this was a divinity game, I feel like there were other expectations associated with the name Baldur's gate that aren't associated with divinity.

Of course it doesn't matter if there is no response whatsoever from Larian
This is a rather broad statement that I'd have to disagree with. It [at least appears to] makes the assumption that complaints are focused at it being a Baldur's Gate game rather than a Divinity sequel, when this isn't even the point of contention for the topic. Complaints are aimed at lack of added content and progress in EA, lack of communication and when there is communication, lack of meaningful communication.

There was a survey done early into the EA which showed only half of the participants on Reddit had even played Baldur's Gate, while 70% here reported the same. Personally, I've never played Baldur's Gate and I'd have no interest in it because I don't like RTwP. I'm here because of Divinity and turn-based RPG and not Baldur's Gate for instance. I have a difficult time believing the complaints which have nothing to do with the name or even the genre (this could be an FPS shooter and it wouldn't matter) are because it's Baldur's Gate and not Divinity.

We're eight months into EA now with basically nothing but a Druid class, some minor tweaks to companions and some comments regarding analytics that some are arguing seem to be willful misrepresentation of data. Meanwhile comparisons can be incredibly effective and important, especially because both are top-down RPG adaptations of PnP rulesets, both are being developed under Covid, both are in early access, etc. The only real differences being in developer size, funding (one is a kickstarter and the other is on the tail end of a successful release and backed by WotC) and scope (25 classes and Mythic paths vs 12 classes). Sadly, the one with seemingly more against it is the one that has been communicating and delivering content.

Meh, that's it for me on the subject though. I'm just massively disappointed in the prospect of an EA which is supposedly geared at getting feedback and testing and has not taken advantage of it or lived up to it. I'm rather concerned with the final release when there's still other classes and multiclassing to test, as well as plenty of other content.
Sure, but I'm sure many people who bought BG3 didn't play Dos either. Like people said above me, Larian became big with this game, this is an undeniable fact. They have a much bigger budget and resources, and much bigger following. And even if most followers never played Baldur's gate, I'm sure most at least heard of it in passing. My point is simply that Larian has a lot of people expecting different things from them. This makes me sympathetic towards them since they have a very hard job.

However, I feel like the way they conduct themselves is beneficial only to them, this silence gives people false hope that their ideas of what this game could be could become true.
Posted By: CopperCrate Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 02/06/21 07:13 PM
"We will be back soon with a larger community update"
"POSTED
Wed, May 12, 2021"

...

I'm pretty supportive of Larian's efforts so far with this game but I don't think I can really get behind their usage of the word "soon".
Don't get me wrong, at 300 hours I've both A) gotten my money's worth and B) got little interest in playing more until 1.0.
But a little more daylight would be appreciated.
Posted By: Blackheifer Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 02/06/21 07:56 PM
Originally Posted by Saito Hikari
I'm not too sure WotR should be called niche when it raised more money on kickstarter than D:OS2 did. Maybe niche compared to the broad appeal/mass advertising that BG3 got, but a lot of things would be niche in a comparison like that.

Originally Posted by gaymer
Larian announced another new office in Barcelona. This further gives me worry that they are still understaffed and well behind schedule due to unforeseen delays.

I'd say 7 offices around the world is well beyond the point where people should stop treating Larian like they're some random indie developer. Maybe they're still indie in the absolute strictest definition, but there's a huge divide between a group of 10-20 people and like 350+ employees worldwide and counting. They hit it big, and grats to them, they're a stone's throw away from being a corporation now (if they aren't already, in everything but name).

Giving this some further consideration, a lot of studios tend to implode in this type of transition. Larian's going to have to be careful with this, lest they make the same mistakes the Witcher/Cyberpunk devs did.

It looks like this seventh studio is very small and is a group of engineers whose sole job is to port games to other platforms. This is actually a really good thing as it frees their main development team from having to focus on that work AND it allows them to more quickly move the BG3 title to other platforms.

Interesting! This more or less confirms they have full intention of expanding the available platform from just PC, MAC, Stadia to at least Switch if not Xbox and Sony. A lot of Consoleboi's will be happy.

Not me though, I can't stand those filthy console gamers :P (KIDDING)
Posted By: gaymer Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 02/06/21 07:56 PM
Originally Posted by CopperCrate
"We will be back soon with a larger community update"
"POSTED
Wed, May 12, 2021"

...

I'm pretty supportive of Larian's efforts so far with this game but I don't think I can really get behind their usage of the word "soon".
Don't get me wrong, at 300 hours I've both A) gotten my money's worth and B) got little interest in playing more until 1.0.
But a little more daylight would be appreciated.

Yes, soon and it is now 3 weeks or more later with no follow-up. It makes no sense at all.

And this is a community update, so it is not even the patch. We are going to have to wait even longer for the patch, so 4 months or more? And will the patch just be to add 1 new class and a few new spells again?
Posted By: Abits Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 02/06/21 08:49 PM
It was the same with patch 3 btw
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 02/06/21 09:35 PM
There is such a saying in our country:

"Ladies, once a man says he will do something ... he will DO it ... and there is no need to remind him every six months."
Posted By: Zarna Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 02/06/21 10:29 PM
Originally Posted by Abits
I just want to raise another issue about communication and good will in regards to owlcat. Take a look at this forum. Why is it that a big studio like Larian doesn't invest some minimal resources in upgrading these old forum systems? How come a much smaller studios like Owlcat has a much more comfortable and presentable forum systems? Just another example of how much Larian seem to care about their community.
At least we still have a forum. Bethesda seems to think Discord is one now, they shut down all of their forums. Try having an opinion or suggestion in that mess.

It would be nice if Larian would communicate more. I have only been involved with EA games a couple of times other than this one (the mess that became SWL and currently SCUM) and with both of these, the developers were/are actively engaged with the community. Here it is just depressing and makes me feel like there was no point to buying early. I only bought early because they claimed to want help testing the evil path.
Posted By: gaymer Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 03/06/21 12:14 AM
Originally Posted by Zarna
Originally Posted by Abits
I just want to raise another issue about communication and good will in regards to owlcat. Take a look at this forum. Why is it that a big studio like Larian doesn't invest some minimal resources in upgrading these old forum systems? How come a much smaller studios like Owlcat has a much more comfortable and presentable forum systems? Just another example of how much Larian seem to care about their community.
At least we still have a forum. Bethesda seems to think Discord is one now, they shut down all of their forums. Try having an opinion or suggestion in that mess.

It would be nice if Larian would communicate more. I have only been involved with EA games a couple of times other than this one (the mess that became SWL and currently SCUM) and with both of these, the developers were/are actively engaged with the community. Here it is just depressing and makes me feel like there was no point to buying early. I only bought early because they claimed to want help testing the evil path.

But they later said they have their own testers and things and they do QA internally. So which one is it?
Posted By: mr_planescapist Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 03/06/21 05:27 AM
Too bad BG3 isnt a niche RPG game actually (^.^)

Speaking of which...Black Isle just re-released Baldurs gate Dark Alliance and looks to be an amazing port the Switch. Whats up with their contract/rights with Baldurs gate?? Any hopes for a BG4 game from them ?!
Posted By: vometia Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 03/06/21 05:39 AM
Originally Posted by Zarna
At least we still have a forum. Bethesda seems to think Discord is one now, they shut down all of their forums. Try having an opinion or suggestion in that mess.

Yeah, Freddo (occasional co-mod here too) just told me about that. :| I'm quite sad really. I arrived there in the TESF "Oblivion Tan" era and felt quite at home there; of course "not as good as it used to be" had already gone through several iterations by that time and I did the same once it became BGSF and switched to the post-apocalyptic black-and-grey theme, but it still pootled along until the pretty disastrous switch to the monochrome smartphone-styled "games discussion only" format. I think the end was inevitable really.

Although forums in general are seeing much less traffic than they used to, there's no plans to "outsource" Larian Forums to social media or Discord and they're still the same as they always were except for periodic software updates. IMHO the early Divinity-era theme could do with an update (and I've toyed with the idea myself but I'm no sort of graphic designer) and doing so would probably annoy more people than anything.

As for communication, I have my own thoughts about that but I'm not sure another opinion would be helpful. I don't know any more than anyone else though, fwiw.
Posted By: gaymer Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 03/06/21 06:04 AM
Is anyone even sure Larian is showcasing at EA? I cannot find anything listed with their name or BG3 on the schedule....

Can someone link me?
Posted By: Tuco Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 03/06/21 06:07 AM
Originally Posted by gaymer
Is anyone even sure Larian is showcasing at EA?
I'm fairly sure they are NOT, actually.
Posted By: gaymer Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 03/06/21 06:21 AM
Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by gaymer
Is anyone even sure Larian is showcasing at EA?
I'm fairly sure they are NOT, actually.

If that is the case, then EA has nothing to do with this excessive delay. A community update teased over 3 weeks ago now and we know it takes them at least 2 weeks to actually drop the patch thereafter.

This patch should have more than just 1 class added and maybe multi-classing or something.
Posted By: acatlas Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 03/06/21 06:22 AM
The lack of communication compaired to some other companies is very underwhelming. @Vometia

Its not to put down Larion but it just comes off that way when they don't stand out and interact more with the community. A lot of developers are more forward and interactive with players of there games. While not all of them are Electronic Arts being a prime example of bad habbits. Where you get companies like square and blizzard while they are larger companies the people they have working on a any specific game tend to be around the same numbers as bg 3 has overall if not a little less. Larion is one of the few developers that seems to be lacking in regular weekly/bi-weekly communication with its players through out the EA/Beta phase of developement.

We get spurts where they briefly respond to patch bugs ect but general community response is just not good when you compare it to other companies. It feels like they need to be more engaged even if its a 1 hour Q&A stuff like that to keep people engaged and keep them up to date where things are. While its nice to keep somethings under wraps its also good to provide teasers and news updates to engage people. Ive been up and down on ratings since the release of the game on how I have felt about it from a 10 to a 4 then up to a 7 and now down to a 3 on reviews and most of this is purely based on lack of communication and what feels like incredibly slow updates when you compare it specifically to games in the same genra.

If I was looking at what makes or breaks a game long term and replay-ability the ability to keep people engaged is a big part of that. Patching bugs releasing new content or updates on a regular basis prevents people from deviating from a game and losing interest.
Posted By: Abits Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 03/06/21 01:26 PM
Originally Posted by Zarna
Originally Posted by Abits
I just want to raise another issue about communication and good will in regards to owlcat. Take a look at this forum. Why is it that a big studio like Larian doesn't invest some minimal resources in upgrading these old forum systems? How come a much smaller studios like Owlcat has a much more comfortable and presentable forum systems? Just another example of how much Larian seem to care about their community.
At least we still have a forum. Bethesda seems to think Discord is one now, they shut down all of their forums. Try having an opinion or suggestion in that mess.

It would be nice if Larian would communicate more. I have only been involved with EA games a couple of times other than this one (the mess that became SWL and currently SCUM) and with both of these, the developers were/are actively engaged with the community. Here it is just depressing and makes me feel like there was no point to buying early. I only bought early because they claimed to want help testing the evil path.
If Larian is aspiring to be Bethesda we really have no business talking here
Posted By: Zarna Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 04/06/21 05:29 AM
Originally Posted by gaymer
But they later said they have their own testers and things and they do QA internally. So which one is it?
This would be nice to know. I would have waited to buy if they had just come out and said that to begin with.

Originally Posted by vometia
Although forums in general are seeing much less traffic than they used to, there's no plans to "outsource" Larian Forums to social media or Discord and they're still the same as they always were except for periodic software updates.
This makes me happy. I would hate to have to sift through all the ridiculous crap people talk about on Discord to find anything of value being mentioned. This is probably the point though, they don't want to hear about any bugs or constructive criticism and think only rainbows and unicorns and how many times someone farted in a day are more important.

Originally Posted by Abits
If Larian is aspiring to be Bethesda we really have no business talking here
Larian has a long way to go to get to that level of aggravation for me. This is the first game I have played by them, there are several things I wish for improvement with but I can give them a chance. Bethesda just keeps ruining FO76. It was advertised as having pvp and being a survival game, but they ruined both of these and keep making other things worse. Those are the only two reasons I bought FO76 and now I am done with Bethesda multiplayer games. Not sure if I will play older Larian games if the equivalent of barrelmancy is the expected playstyle, but I would consider future games of theirs if this one comes out well.
Posted By: Tuco Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 04/06/21 06:44 AM
I'm honestly not sure what you guys are so confused about.
No self-respecting developers would go without an internal group for QA/testing, regardless of how big is the user base giving feedback.
Posted By: qwerrecd42 Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 04/06/21 08:09 AM
Yeah out of all the criticisms I have of Larian that isn't one of them. There has to be (at least theoretically) *some* level of testing even before releasing something in early access. You can't just implement and throw out to the playerbase immediately, even if it is early access.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 04/06/21 08:40 AM
Originally Posted by Zarna
Originally Posted by vometia
Although forums in general are seeing much less traffic than they used to, there's no plans to "outsource" Larian Forums to social media or Discord and they're still the same as they always were except for periodic software updates.
This makes me happy. I would hate to have to sift through all the ridiculous crap people talk about on Discord to find anything of value being mentioned. This is probably the point though, they don't want to hear about any bugs or constructive criticism and think only rainbows and unicorns and how many times someone farted in a day are more important.
+1 ... Discord is, well ... discord. laugh

[img]https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/v...ale-to-width-down/1000?cb=20190820094402[/img]
Posted By: Saito Hikari Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 04/06/21 06:17 PM
It's been extremely fun watching the BG3 subreddit suddenly take a left turn into being overly critical of the game within the past week. Now that it's sinking in that we're probably in for a much longer wait for any scrap of new information than anyone ever anticipated, people have been given the time to go through and critically analyze the game's various systems, because there's nothing distracting the masses anymore and hardly anything else to talk about.

Forced memes have a shelf life. Unaddressed problems don't.
Posted By: Tuco Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 04/06/21 07:08 PM
Don't get too optimist about this.
For the most part they are still rabidly overdefensive against any criticism toward the game.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 04/06/21 08:04 PM
I would just say that there is more negativity, bcs there is many new people, who get here just to grumble about the lack of new info ...
But in general, i dont thrust anything major changed.
Posted By: DragonSnooz Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 04/06/21 08:09 PM
Originally Posted by Saito Hikari
It's been extremely fun watching the BG3 subreddit suddenly take a left turn into being overly critical of the game within the past week. Now that it's sinking in that we're probably in for a much longer wait for any scrap of new information than anyone ever anticipated, people have been given the time to go through and critically analyze the game's various systems, because there's nothing distracting the masses anymore and hardly anything else to talk about.

Forced memes have a shelf life. Unaddressed problems don't.
I think the romance phase is over. Although I have a feeling shove might still be popular on Reddit.
Posted By: gaymer Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 05/06/21 03:11 AM
Larian will be forced to act if user reviews on Steam and elsewhere begin to tank due to 100+ days of nothing.
Posted By: The Composer Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 05/06/21 08:33 AM
Originally Posted by gaymer
Larian will be forced to act if user reviews on Steam and elsewhere begin to tank due to 100+ days of nothing.

Review brigading is probably not the most clever idea, particularly when we don't even know why it's taking a while. Insisting on a developer to hurry instead of taking its time begs for lacking content and polish. At best, you're incentivizing a Cyberpunk 2077, at worst you risk damaging future interests of doing Early Access in the first place, which does have a lot of positives for the development approach. It might test us with patience of looking forward to the full experience at times, and it'd admittedly be great to hear more during the process and it's completely valid to have critique about its pacing and approach, but bullying someone into anything has never lead to anything good that has a long-term positive influence.
Posted By: CJMPinger Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 05/06/21 10:55 AM
Honestly, I don't want them to rush anything. My thing is I want them to start "talking" to us. And bullying them into it will likely not end well.
Posted By: Alexandrite Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 05/06/21 11:02 AM
Agreed. There's no need to rush the game itself - it will be ready when it's ready.

The only thing I'd be asking them for is some communication, not just complete and total silence. Or even a "hey, about that community update we promised, it's a little late but coming around E3 weekend" or something like that. Some hints as to what we can look forward to. Otherwise the forums just turn into a pack of rabid dogs chasing their tails and gnawing on the same pile of bones (of contention) over and over again.
Posted By: Tuco Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 05/06/21 11:15 AM
You know, lack of updates aside, even openly saying with the last hotfix "We expect the next update in a moth or so" or "around E3" would have spared people a lot of frustration, instead of teasing with some vague "SOON™" that didn't match reality.

See? Still vague enough to be completely non-committal but far more honest on what would be the time frame. Without even the need to promising anything too specific.
Also, spending a couple of lines on what would be coming with the future update wouldn't have hurt anyone, really.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 05/06/21 12:19 PM
Originally Posted by Alexandrite
Agreed. There's no need to rush the game itself - it will be ready when it's ready.

The only thing I'd be asking them for is some communication, not just complete and total silence. Or even a "hey, about that community update we promised, it's a little late but coming around E3 weekend" or something like that. Some hints as to what we can look forward to. Otherwise the forums just turn into a pack of rabid dogs chasing their tails and gnawing on the same pile of bones (of contention) over and over again.
+1
Posted By: Abits Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 05/06/21 05:27 PM
I think people here at conflating communication with new content. I think between releasing patches every day to being almost completely silent for 6 months there is a range.

I honestly don't care if the game will come out even five years from now if it's the best it can be. But I do like to know what they are working on, even if I won't be able to play it.
Posted By: Rieline Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 07/06/21 02:46 PM
I love larian but this lack of communication is a bit.. Bad. The last patch in the end was just one class a bounch of spells and cinematic fixes.
Posted By: Amaunator43 Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 07/06/21 04:12 PM
Originally Posted by Rieline
I love larian but this lack of communication is a bit.. Bad. The last patch in the end was just one class a bounch of spells and cinematic fixes.
TBH that is quite a lot isn't it? If the plan is to keep EA content story wise as is, and hone the mechanics and classes and such in that sandbox, what more could you ask for from a single patch? The patches come so seldom already, if you wanted even more, imagine the delay between patches.


I'd just hope the devs would realize that we do not need a massive spectacle every time they tell us something. A weekly "we have been trying to figure out how many barrels you can stack on top of a badger this week"-post would go a long way here.

I'm still waiting for the paladin, but any news would be appreciated.
Posted By: Rieline Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 07/06/21 05:44 PM
Originally Posted by Amaunator43
Originally Posted by Rieline
I love larian but this lack of communication is a bit.. Bad. The last patch in the end was just one class a bounch of spells and cinematic fixes.
TBH that is quite a lot isn't it? If the plan is to keep EA content story wise as is, and hone the mechanics and classes and such in that sandbox, what more could you ask for from a single patch? The patches come so seldom already, if you wanted even more, imagine the delay between patches.


I'd just hope the devs would realize that we do not need a massive spectacle every time they tell us something. A weekly "we have been trying to figure out how many barrels you can stack on top of a badger this week"-post would go a long way here.

I'm still waiting for the paladin, but any news would be appreciated.

Mh no really... Cinematic fixes are a thing but i don't think is the most urgend needed thing.

Currently i would love to see the D&D ruleset in the system fixed. Missing Classes and Race added i have no the slightest interest to have cinematics fixed right now. BG was never about cinematics everywhere. With the last patch i expected needed fixes maybe a couple of class or race implemented but objectively we had only the druid and a few spells.

What tho is annoying me is not even that. But the total lack of communication in the end is true the game is early access we all know that the development is in full swing but since i invested my money on it i would even love to know what is even worked on.

I dosn't take much. A blog post. maybe once a week or two week.

There is no reason for hyping and radio silence.

To me the last patch simply under delivered.
Posted By: gaymer Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 09/06/21 03:57 PM
DOS2 development had regular videos and updates on YouTube where they showed work, upcoming things, teasers, and gave a bit of direction. It was not a full roadmap, but they at least told you what was next and what was to come.

I do not understand why that stopped with this game other than my suspicion that Larian is over their head with this project and grossly mismanaging it on all fronts.
Posted By: TestyMcTesterson Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 09/06/21 04:19 PM
That was a kickstarter i think so more updates are the norm for that.

A ton of people (myself included) thought that style communication would carry over to this early access process as well, not exactly the same level of communication but decent % of it. It's pretty obvious now that our assumption wasn't a great one. Might have skipped EA if i had known they were already set in their opinions.
Posted By: DrDrizzyT Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 09/06/21 04:21 PM
Originally Posted by gaymer
I do not understand why that stopped with this game other than my suspicion that Larian is over their head with this project and grossly mismanaging it on all fronts.

This is my growing suspicion as well. I feel like they are slowly starting to find that their idea of porting Divinity as much as possible, and just adapting that into a workable 5e platform, was a MASSIVE mistake. I'm actually hopeful that they are going back to the drawing board and reassessing the whole thing, because I think the way they've started this project has been an absolute disaster, in terms of achieving their goal of 'making BG3 the most faithful adaptation of the 5e system ever'. I would much rather them realize their mistake, and go through months of redesigns, then half-ass the systems by trying to fit 5e into the Divinity engine.

It would make up for the lack of communication in my mind. But I'm sure we would all appreciate at least a nugget of info regarding anything.
Posted By: Blackheifer Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 09/06/21 05:04 PM
Originally Posted by gaymer
DOS2 development had regular videos and updates on YouTube where they showed work, upcoming things, teasers, and gave a bit of direction. It was not a full roadmap, but they at least told you what was next and what was to come.

I do not understand why that stopped with this game other than my suspicion that Larian is over their head with this project and grossly mismanaging it on all fronts.

There is no evidence to support this, quite the opposite really. When a company is being grossly mismanaged they suffer from low morale, people leak info, complain and make it known to the general press or bloggers. There is also a lot of turn over, and I am not seeing any evidence of that either.

I would say that Morale is extremely high to the point that no one is releasing any information because they have been asked not to. There are a number of reasons to speculate why that is and generally though this is a positive thing. People are engaged and focused, it seems to me.

And hey, you are welcome to prove me wrong. Show me the "signs of mismanagement" I just indicated. 300+ employees - somebody should be saying something.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 09/06/21 05:26 PM
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
When a company is being grossly mismanaged they suffer from low morale, people leak info, complain and make it known to the general press or bloggers. There is also a lot of turn over, and I am not seeing any evidence of that either.
I hate to disagree with you, but i just must mention Bloodlines 2 ...
I cant quite imagine worse management ... yet there was no leaks, no press or bloggers complaints ... nothing. O_o
Posted By: Abits Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 09/06/21 05:52 PM
Either way, one cannot deny there is a huge difference between they treat the community in this game Vs dos2. Why do they do it no one knows for sure.
Posted By: Boblawblah Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 09/06/21 06:24 PM
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
And hey, you are welcome to prove me wrong.

fortunately he doesn't have to "prove you wrong" when all he said was

"my suspicion"
Posted By: Blackheifer Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 09/06/21 06:29 PM
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
When a company is being grossly mismanaged they suffer from low morale, people leak info, complain and make it known to the general press or bloggers. There is also a lot of turn over, and I am not seeing any evidence of that either.
I hate to disagree with you, but i just must mention Bloodlines 2 ...
I cant quite imagine worse management ... yet there was no leaks, no press or bloggers complaints ... nothing. O_o

https://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2020-09-08-paradox-qa-staff-allege-poor-treatment

https://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/Hardsuit-Labs-Reviews-E1030422.htm

https://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/Paradox-Interactive-Reviews-E1008028.htm

Just a casual google search. Paradox, who made the decision to pull the plug on Hardsuit Labs has all kinds of problems. Hardsuit seemed to have a decently happy corporate culture and was legitimately surprised by the decision by Paradox to pull the plug. This is how mismanaged companies behave, they make impulsive decisions with no plan in place on handling the fallout. Again, this is a case of Paradox having too many Irons in the fire and not prioritizing them.

Does anyone really think we will see Bloodlines 2 in the next 3-5 years? Nope, its gone.
Posted By: Saito Hikari Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 09/06/21 07:37 PM
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
And hey, you are welcome to prove me wrong. Show me the "signs of mismanagement" I just indicated. 300+ employees - somebody should be saying something.

I wanted to avoid bringing this up on THIS forum, but since you're asking...

https://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/Larian-Studios-Reviews-E1861123.htm

Scroll down to the recent Feb 2021 review.

That said, typically we don't really hear anything major in regards to mismanagement until much later. If BG3 truly is being as mismanaged as some here fear, I don't think we would realistically hear anything about it until after the game is released, when people have a chance to distance themselves from the project and company (and will be in less of a position to have their salaries/livelihood threatened via any retaliation). Not to mention Larian is now the current media darling, now that literally every other major western RPG developer has fallen flat on their faces in recent time. The same way CDPR used to be the media darling up until Cyberpunk shattered their carefully crafted façade. Point being, anything remotely negative won't be taken seriously, until things become so obviously bad that public opinion shifts enough to a level where articles about this alleged mismanagement can be safely written.

We only really hear of mismanagement before release if the project has reached truly unsalvageable levels, like CDPR with Cyberpunk. I think another big example is Bioware due to how absolutely consistent the reports of mismanagement were over the entire past decade, but upon further thought, that information only began coming out after the release of each of their projects. DA4 is an exception, having known to have restarted development once or twice, but we only really know that because people are now heavily scrutinizing the company for any information about the project (plus the failure of Andromeda and Anthem affecting DA4's development) to begin with.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 09/06/21 07:41 PM
I kinda hoped you will find some leaks for me. laugh
Anyway ... okey, i stand corected. laugh

Originally Posted by Blackheifer
Does anyone really think we will see Bloodlines 2 in the next 3-5 years? Nope, its gone.
Well ... maybe not exactly, but i have heared about some hits that "some Vampire game" should be in development in Arkane Studios ... reportely it may possibly be shown in E3
So ... maybe quite soon i shall no longer even care about Bloodlines. laugh
Posted By: Blackheifer Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 09/06/21 07:54 PM
Originally Posted by Saito Hikari
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
And hey, you are welcome to prove me wrong. Show me the "signs of mismanagement" I just indicated. 300+ employees - somebody should be saying something.



Scroll down to the recent Feb 2021 review.

One review, that's it? With things like this you look for something called a "pattern". I saw this but I disregarded it because unless there are multiple employees complaining its not significant.

Obviously they are not happy, hopefully they will find something that better fits them.
Posted By: grysqrl Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 09/06/21 08:35 PM
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
Originally Posted by Saito Hikari
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
And hey, you are welcome to prove me wrong. Show me the "signs of mismanagement" I just indicated. 300+ employees - somebody should be saying something.



Scroll down to the recent Feb 2021 review.

One review, that's it? With things like this you look for something called a "pattern". I saw this but I disregarded it because unless there are multiple employees complaining its not significant.

Obviously they are not happy, hopefully they will find something that better fits them.
The pattern that I see is that most of the people reported on it being disorganized or chaotic. 30% of the people reporting were interns and were there for less than a year. Most of the responses were insubstantial and sounded almost like they were auto-generated; they essentially read like "I'm excited to be working in a place where young people are making video games!" I don't think most of them put much thought into what they wrote.

One is a nurse at an ER in South Carolina - pretty sure they're responding about the wrong company.

Only one person actually took the time to write a thoughtful review with reasoning and examples and they were extremely critical.
Posted By: Maximuuus Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 09/06/21 08:57 PM
Yea this "chaos" brought more than once is really strange. Maybe "lots of freedom and creativity leading to chaotic devellopment" could suit BG3 ?

It's pretty clear that the game is an assembly of things pasted together rather than a project thought as a whole.
Posted By: IrenicusBG3 Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 09/06/21 11:13 PM
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Yea this "chaos" brought more than once is really strange. Maybe "lots of freedom and creativity leading to chaotic devellopment" could suit BG3 ?

It's pretty clear that the game is an assembly of things pasted together rather than a project thought as a whole.

Judging by the game reveal in early 2020 and all the streams since then, it is not surprising it is a chaotic place.

Maybe they are late because of a prolonged flood.
Posted By: Waltc Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 10/06/21 06:14 PM
Originally Posted by Tuco
Don't get too optimist about this.
For the most part they are still rabidly overdefensive against any criticism toward the game.

How do you criticize "the game" when it has yet to ship? Nobody on planet Earth, to my, knowledge is currently playing the complete BG3 game. We're all playing the EA, which we knew--or should have known--would be restricted to the first chapter in the game out of three or maybe even four total chapters. That is all the content the EA will contain during its lifespan. (Lamenting that "I should have read about what I was buying first," is certainly no excuse...;)) Larian has done an EA on a number of its games and they are all the same--you get the first chapter, or so--and nothing else until the full game ships.

And really, the people whose criticism of the EA is that Larian should have used the same engine as shipped in the original BG2 is about the most ludicrous criticism imaginable, considering how long ago BG2 was. It's like complaining that BG2 was shipped using an improved BG1 engine, etc. I don't even understand that particular criticism. BG2 shipped 21 years ago--I can run it at 4k and the graphics look like crap...although 21 years ago I quite enjoyed it! Anyway...

Do I like having to wait a year or more after paying for the EA for the full game? Of course not. I definitely don't like it. Swen delayed launching the EA for some time because of how slowly the progress was moving. Frankly, I wish he had delayed the EA for another six months or so, which would have put the full game shipping within six months of the EA, maybe, which I judge to be about right and probably what Swen had in mind at the start.

I think that's at the crux of the discontent, such as it is. It is frustrating. No argument there.

But what I want to see are the patches and then I'll look at the community update describing them. Telling people what is coming at some point in the future is in no way comparable to providing those updates in the appropriate patches. It's a mistake to think that it is.

So where are the smaller patches every two weeks that would not obsolete prior saves? That was something that was communicated that has yet to come to pass. However, if that isn't feasible then I would recommend saying that it isn't feasible so we could all forget it.

I guess I'll sum up by saying that I don't necessarily agree with a lot of the criticism, but I can certainly understand it.
Posted By: Boblawblah Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 10/06/21 07:47 PM
Originally Posted by Waltc
How do you criticize "the game" when it has yet to ship?

Easy, here I'll show you.

Shadowheart is a cringy emo. do you think that after 30 hours of hating her in Act I, her character will just completely change in every aspect in the final acts?

This reminds me of Final Fantasy XIII. People defending the game saying "it gets good 50 hours in" as if that excuses the first 50 hours from being shit. The fact is, we've all paid money to be a part of this early access, it's nonsense to say that we need to wait until the game is completed to have criticisms. Also, I can't think of very many games that started one way and then had a complete 180 in terms of characters/mechanics/gameplay/etc. What we're seeing now is most likely the core game, it's not as if the future acts are going to be a different game.
Posted By: IrenicusBG3 Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 10/06/21 08:23 PM
Originally Posted by Waltc
Frankly, I wish he had delayed the EA for another six months or so, which would have put the full game shipping within six months of the EA, maybe, which I judge to be about right and probably what Swen had in mind at the start.

I don't see this game coming before end of 2022/early 2023.
Posted By: CJMPinger Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 10/06/21 08:29 PM
Even if the game was more done when the EA launched, I would still have said 2022 as the likely date of release. The point of the EA was to test things and see how the community likes and dislikes them, and they have gotten a ton of feedback on things to change. If the EA was more done when they released it, arguably it would have been more work to change core things and they wouldn't have had such direct feedback on the evil companions.
Posted By: qwerrecd42 Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 10/06/21 08:50 PM
Given their lack of response to player feedback up to now I'd say the *real* purpose of the EA was to get two bites at the "release-day sales" apple. Maybe they'll prove me wrong with that community update that's coming "soon" but that feels like expecting a miracle at this point.
Posted By: The Composer Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 10/06/21 09:15 PM
I'm trying to genuinely understand the two-bites rhetoric, but since you don't actually pay twice for anything (if you bought EA, you already have the full game. It's just a pre-order with some early playability), I don't really see what you mean by that.
Posted By: Boblawblah Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 10/06/21 09:23 PM
i assume they meant two bites, meaning two big release hypes, the early access rush and the release day rush? maybe?
Posted By: CJMPinger Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 10/06/21 09:31 PM
Originally Posted by Boblawblah
i assume they meant two bites, meaning two big release hypes, the early access rush and the release day rush? maybe?

Ultimately, would they get that many new purchases for dividing it up...?
Posted By: qwerrecd42 Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 10/06/21 10:35 PM
Originally Posted by Boblawblah
i assume they meant two bites, meaning two big release hypes, the early access rush and the release day rush? maybe?

That is indeed what I meant.

Originally Posted by CJMPinger
Ultimately, would they get that many new purchases for dividing it up...?

Absolutely. You get two separate waves of hype by doing it like this, with that second wave buoyed by thousands (or more) of people who have reviewed the game on a generous curve because it's Early Access (assuming your EA wasn't a complete disaster). Even if a good chunk of those people are eventually disappointed and stop liking the game (which happens in a lot of EA games), almost none of them are gonna go and change their (previously positive) reviews.
Posted By: Tuco Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 10/06/21 10:40 PM
They are not going to release on Friday, so we are back to wait for Tuesday as best case scenario. But it will probably take more.
Posted By: CJMPinger Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 10/06/21 11:05 PM
Originally Posted by qwerrecd42
Originally Posted by Boblawblah
i assume they meant two bites, meaning two big release hypes, the early access rush and the release day rush? maybe?

That is indeed what I meant.

Originally Posted by CJMPinger
Ultimately, would they get that many new purchases for dividing it up...?

Absolutely. You get two separate waves of hype by doing it like this, with that second wave buoyed by thousands (or more) of people who have reviewed the game on a generous curve because it's Early Access (assuming your EA wasn't a complete disaster). Even if a good chunk of those people are eventually disappointed and stop liking the game (which happens in a lot of EA games), almost none of them are gonna go and change their (previously positive) reviews.

I'm not sure that would amount to all that many more people, perhaps a bit more because of the "hype" but you'd likely have mostly the same audience in two halves of willing to play an unfinished game and wanting to play a finished one. And if there is increase from two hypes, it would not be significant enough to dedicate large parts of the development resources to this EA process. To me, the most likely explanation for the EA is in fact the one they stated where they wanted feedback on everything. And I'll choose to believe that at least until the next update, where I might have to reevaluate my opinions.
Posted By: Alexandrite Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 10/06/21 11:31 PM
Originally Posted by Tuco
They are not going to release on Friday, so we are back to wait for Tuesday as best case scenario. But it will probably take more.

They have done updates on a Saturday before... there is always hope?
Posted By: Tuco Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 10/06/21 11:42 PM
Originally Posted by Alexandrite
Originally Posted by Tuco
They are not going to release on Friday, so we are back to wait for Tuesday as best case scenario. But it will probably take more.

They have done updates on a Saturday before... there is always hope?
Can't remember any?
All the ones released so far have been between Tuesday and Thursday and always released around 19:00 (7p.m.) or so by Central Europe timezone, as far as I can recall.

There's also a good reason for that: as a developer if you can help it you want to avoid releasing a patch on a Friday evening, only to NOT be available at the office during the weekend in the eventuality some last minute emergency maintenance would be required.
Posted By: CJMPinger Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 10/06/21 11:45 PM
Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by Alexandrite
Originally Posted by Tuco
They are not going to release on Friday, so we are back to wait for Tuesday as best case scenario. But it will probably take more.

They have done updates on a Saturday before... there is always hope?
Can't remember any?
All the ones released so far have been between Tuesday and Thursday and always released around 19:00 (7p.m.) or so by Central Europe timezone, as far as I can recall.

Maybe they'll surprise us? randomly, does anyone know if Larian has anything at E3 this year, like any announcements or the such?
Posted By: Tuco Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 10/06/21 11:48 PM
Originally Posted by CJMPinger
Maybe they'll surprise us? randomly, does anyone know if Larian has anything at E3 this year, like any announcements or the such?
They aren't listed as participating anywhere, but a lot of people are hanging to this hope.
I wouldn't expect anything, frankly.

And while some minor shows (i.e. the PC Gaming Show organized by PCG) may be starved for decent content, E3 isn't exactly the place where you go to hype up an update for a game already available in Early Access, generally speaking.
Posted By: CJMPinger Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 10/06/21 11:58 PM
Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by CJMPinger
Maybe they'll surprise us? randomly, does anyone know if Larian has anything at E3 this year, like any announcements or the such?
They aren't listed as participating anywhere, but a lot of people are hanging to this hope.
I wouldn't expect anything, frankly.

And while some minor shows (i.e. the PC Gaming Show organized by PCG) may be starved for decent content, E3 isn't exactly the place where you go to hype up an update for a game already available in Early Access, generally speaking.

That's fair, I was mainly curious for if there was anything backing the hope for it to be E3 as the time for the big announcements.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 11/06/21 07:25 AM
Originally Posted by Waltc
So where are the smaller patches every two weeks that would not obsolete prior saves? That was something that was communicated that has yet to come to pass. However, if that isn't feasible then I would recommend saying that it isn't feasible so we could all forget it.
It was communicated?
Can you provide the source?

Since if you bother enough to see OP ot this wery threath, there was specificly told that Larian never promised it ... it was just autor's expectation that was proven wrong ...
And i must say i kinda doubt that Larian promised something later, since they failed to provide it in the past. laugh

Originally Posted by Boblawblah
Shadowheart is a cringy emo. do you think that after 30 hours of hating her in Act I, her character will just completely change in every aspect in the final acts?
Since you used Final Fantasy as an example ...
Did you play FF-7 ? I was thinking that Aerith will be my favourite character in the game ... well. laugh

Originally Posted by Boblawblah
The fact is, we've all paid money to be a part of this early access, it's nonsense to say that we need to wait until the game is completed to have criticisms.
It depends ...
- For one, as far as i know, we didnt paid money to be a part of early acess ... we paid money for the game, and since we paid now, we are allowed to be part of early acess for free. O_o There is huge difference even if that may not seem that way.
And we were multiple times told to rather wait, until EA will be done, if we want to have absolutely clear idea about what game we are about to buy. That is also quite important.
- And for two, it depend on topic of criticism ... i mean, complaints about high ground, backstab advantage and such stuff are quite allright i would say, but how do you want to criticic story? O_o (And by "YOU" i dont mean you specificly, just to be clear ... but there was some topics about this.)

Originally Posted by Tuco
There's also a good reason for that: as a developer if you can help it you want to avoid releasing a patch on a Friday evening, only to NOT be available at the office during the weekend in the eventuality some last minute emergency maintenance would be required.
This is good argument, but lets not forget we were not promised a patch ... but only community update. wink
Wich as far as i know, should not need any maintenance. O_o
Posted By: CJMPinger Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 11/06/21 04:14 PM
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
- For one, as far as i know, we didnt paid money to be a part of early acess ... we paid money for the game, and since we paid now, we are allowed to be part of early acess for free. O_o There is huge difference even if that may not seem that way.
And we were multiple times told to rather wait, until EA will be done, if we want to have absolutely clear idea about what game we are about to buy. That is also quite important.

I have a quibble about this statement. We kinda did buy into the EA, otherwise it would not have been released as an EA title. We paid money for both, reasoning the EA as a sort of Preorder bonus we can play now with the added benefits of the promise of our feedback influencing the final product. But we were in fact told to wait if we did not like an incomplete product, but i don't think that devalues any of the constructive criticism.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 11/06/21 05:11 PM
Constructive certainly not ... that kind is even desired as far as i know. laugh
Posted By: Tuco Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 11/06/21 06:51 PM
Originally Posted by Waltc
How do you criticize "the game" when it has yet to ship? Nobody on planet Earth, to my, knowledge is currently playing the complete BG3 game. We're all playing the EA, which we knew--or should have known--would be restricted to the first chapter in the game
I bet you thought you were being clever here.


Quote
And really, the people whose criticism of the EA is that Larian should have used the same engine as shipped in the original BG2...
"...Don't really exist." would be the only appropriate way to end that sentence.

But feel free to keep beating that strawman to a bloody pulp if it makes you feel better about yourself.
Just don't expect anyone to take you seriously when you do.
Posted By: acatlas Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 12/06/21 04:30 AM
Posting a definition here to clarify the reasons for feedback everyone is seeing on lack of communication and complaints.

Early access, also known as early funding, alpha access, alpha founding, or paid alpha, is a funding model in the video game industry by which consumers can purchase and play a game in the various pre-release development cycles, such as pre-alpha, alpha, and/or beta, while the developer is able to use those funds to continue further development on the game. Those that pay to participate typically help to debug the game, provide feedback and suggestions, and may have access to special materials in the game. The early-access approach is a common way to obtain funding for indie games, and may also be used along with other funding mechanisms, including crowdfunding. Many crowdfunding projects promise to offer access to alpha and/or beta versions of the game as development progresses; however, unlike some of these projects which solicit funds but do not yet have a playable game, all early access games offer an immediately playable version of the unfinished game to players.

By that definition the game is considered in a testing phase to provide funding for completion of the game. With the intent that people will have full access to the content from the game as its developed. Technically its an early alpha version of the game as theres no other definition you can put on it as a beta test would be testing a completed version of the game with debugging to fix issues. However the term itself is very misleading. The biggest misleading concept is the extent in which playability is expected / determined is more or less based on what most companies determine as early access. I could give several examples but most basically are more progressive and interactive with audiences.

The idea and reason people are upset is mostly because the indication given with early access to the game is that people presume that ea is beta testing its generally what the idea is they get but its more alpha state testing however companies are generally more interactive and responsive during alpha testing phases of development to a game. Which is where there is the misleading representation it should have been advertised as Prolong testing. There is a video where larion stated that the expected full release was 1 year after the EA testing. However I personally wouldn't hold them to that expectation with a pre-release purchase for early access as delays do happen and its covid.

Same time the slow release of new content I would hold them accountable for as the way its advertised in ea is alpha testing even by the defninition of early access. Which does indicate your seeing regular content added. However it reflects extremely poorly on them to not communicate. There is a lot of good publicity at the moment from people who just dabbed there toes in to come back and play it at a later time but people who have been actively waiting for content to play it heavily during the early access the publicity is generally much more negative.

Its like comparing people who buy a game for a single play through to comparing people who are going to play your game repeatedly for the next 2-3 years and buy all your dlc content as it gets released. The single playthrough people being the ones giving the positive review vs the active players reviewing it negatively.

There are a lot of poor examples arguing pace of content release - Use the older engine ... em that does not work for a modern game. Not to mention the rights to that software may be propritary to the company that originally designed the software for it. It was semi indicated it would only be the first chapter during release announcements originally that majority of early access would be limited... However if you do read the steam page it does say only chapter 1 will be playable in early access however at the same time it does say that the remaining classes and races would get added in throughout early access checked like 10 minutes ago to validate that. It doesnt really well define chapter 1 / 2 / 3 in the initial play just that its roughtly 25 hours of playable content. However at the same time it indicates the entire game would be playable by OCT 6 2021 which is something in the same perspective they could be held to as they had a clear full release date posted on the steam page.

That being considered the biggest arguement I would be pushing regarding content release periods and early access would be the buy button should say pre-order not buy despite it being early access posting which is something more to argue with steam if you got it on steam rather than larion. However lack of communication and updates during EA is something I think is a reasonable arguement from anyone based on pace of the rival companies responses to similar issues. I personally have submitted feedback on other titles with a much more positive response to feedback and interactive response which is something larion does lack. Without being specific as to what and where because it doesn't really need to be brought up.

With soon being a very relative term as another fault. Saying we should have a new patch coming soon should be more defined in its response time like a this is what were working on with a target date of this which is what people come to expect from companies that want a postive review that I can provide several dozen examples on myself. A perfect example of this is iksar aka dean ayala from the HS community who is the lead developer from HS and interacts once per week with the community on twitter taking feedback and responses from the community and actively responds to questions and comments for about an hour. While not everyone gets a responses you get some general interaction and answers to questions. Similarly with Owlcat, Entertainment Forge and several other companies.

Would I play BG 3 on release still probably would I have bought the ea over a different game with way content has gone during EA no. I would recommend different games instead because of the poor communication and lack of interaction from larion as well as regular updates. When I am asked about it thats exactly what I tell anyone asking if its worth getting I say honestly I would not bother updating it or buying a new copy if you have it as this time I would at least way till you get news about the next patch before considering it if its not a huge patch I would probably hold off and go get something else that will chew up more of your time for the 79.99 your paying for it you can go get more value for what your spending from other companies at this time there are no extra perks or anything your getting with early access to the game currently. Compared to going and purchasing for example ashes of creation early access and getting a unique mount and a bunch of other things for having put into the early access version of the game amongst alot of other perks most companies give out for participating in early access parts of the game. That does not mean I think the game is bad just that I would advise people avoid buying into the early access or any future early access releases from Larion due to poor experience despite a potentially solid game during early access.
Posted By: Pandemonica Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 12/06/21 02:00 PM
Steamworks even defines it differently. It is not Alpha, it is not Beta.

"Early Access is a tool to develop your game with the community by giving them access to your title before it is officially released."

Even by Steam works rules, they cannot promise things that are not in EA release that may/may not meet future expectations.

1. You must include Steam Early Access branding and information about the current state of your game on any third-party sites where you are distributing Steam keys for your Early Access game. We work very hard to make sure that customers understand what they are buying when they get an Early Access title on Steam, and this expectation continues wherever

2. Do not make specific promises about future events. For example, there is no way you can know exactly when the game will be finished, that the game will be finished, or that planned future additions will definitely happen. Do not ask your customers to bet on the future of your game. Customers should be buying your game based on its current state, not on promises of a future that may or may not be realized.

3. Steam Early Access titles need to be available to customers through Steam. If Steam enables your Early Access game, we expect you to have the Early Access game available for sale on the Steam store. Do not offer it for sale on Steam any later than you offer it anywhere else.

4. Don't overcharge Steam customers. The Early Access price of your game should be no higher than that offered on any other service or website. Please take care of your customers on Steam.

5. Make sure you set expectations properly everywhere you talk about your game. Be transparent with your community. For example, if you know your updates during Early Access will break save files, make sure you tell players up front. And say this everywhere you sell your Steam keys.

6. Don't launch in Early Access without a playable game. If you have a tech demo, but not much gameplay yet, then it’s probably too early to launch in Early Access. If you are trying to test out a concept and haven't yet figured out what players are going to do in your game that makes it fun, then it's probably too early. You might want to start by giving out keys to select fans and getting input from a smaller and focused group before you release in Early Access. At a bare minimum, you will need a video trailer that shows gameplay. Even if you are asking for feedback that will impact gameplay, customers need something to start with in order to give informed feedback and suggestions.

7. Don't launch in Early Access if you are finished with development. If you have all your gameplay defined already and are just looking for final bug testing, then Early Access isn’t right for you. You’ll probably want to send out some keys to fans or do more internal playtesting instead. Early Access is intended as a place where customers can impact the final game.

So I appreciate the effort you put in your post, it is at its base, incorrect.

* And please, provide your several dozen examples as you have stated. Considering you are stating 84 games have done it so differently and told their EA players ever detailed aspect of what they are doing, and when they are going to release a patch. I can't wait. We are not shareholders, we are not their managers.
Posted By: acatlas Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 12/06/21 02:54 PM
Owlcat Games Pathfinder wrath of the rightous, Gladitor Guild Manager, Solasta, Ashes of Creation, Hearthstone where regular community updates are posted weekly off the top of my head. There are other examples as well. The community managers of those games all do release regular weekly/bi-weekly updates to progress in the game incase of hearthstone its not really an EA game but its a game that has a smaller staff despite being for a much larger company overall. The lead developer Dean Ayala Interacts with the community once every single week via twitter and replies to the community with updates news ect on upcoming content and answers several dozen questions in Q&A. The pathfinder team from owlcat does a weekly stream update on you tube and interacts with the community.

Steamworks even defines it differently. It is not Alpha, it is not Beta.
"Early Access is a tool to develop your game with the community by giving them access to your title before it is officially released."
Even by Steam works rules, they cannot promise things that are not in EA release that may/may not meet future expectations.

Approximately how long will this game be in Early Access?
“Though Act 1 (the content for Early Access) is defined, Act’s 2 and 3 are work in progress. It’s therefore difficult to predict when 1.0 will launch. We anticipate Baldur’s Gate 3 being in Early Access for at least one year but we’ll have to see how it goes. It’ll be ready when it’s ready.”

it does say act 1 only thats a copy past right from the steam page however again 1 year noted in the post.

What is the current state of the Early Access version?
“The Early Access version of Baldur’s Gate 3 includes Act 1 of the game which, in one playthrough, is approximately 25 hours of self-contained content. 6 player classes are supported and 9 races/subraces with more to be added later. There are 5 origin characters which you can recruit (but not play as for now). Most of Baldur’s Gate 3’s advertised features are included though some are still work in progress. Not every language is currently supported, as our writers are still developing the game which makes translation difficult.

Again copy paste - Note the more to be added later quote.

We’ve worked hard to release an Early Access version that feels complete, fun to play, and has as little stub (unfinished) content as possible. There are bugs and there will be changes to content (often based on player feedback), but our goal is to already now give you something that’s genuinely fun to play.”

Note again there will be changes to the content added based on feedback.

How are you planning on involving the Community in your development process?
“Since day one of Baldur's Gate 3’s announcement, community discussion, feedback, and organization (thank you) has shaped what we’ve said and done. Though we have a strong vision for the game throughout our team of over 300 people, our goal is to create a game that gets our audience excited, and to maintain a healthy relationship with those who take the time to provide feedback and help us create a better game. We use automatic data collection tools to help us better balance the game but we also listen to forum feedback and use that to drive internal debate. We create massive, sprawling games, and we couldn’t possibly explore every single permutation and combination of skills, choices, reactions and conclusions without our community. Working with your thoughts, feedback, and behaviour helps us to better understand how our ideas are toyed with, and how we can improve things.”

Note again healthy relationship and listening to forum feedback there is a lack of response to most feedback or interaction with community which that is all directly quoted of the steam forums. Which has been expressed alot by the community. While there are people who have played maybe 30-50 hours in game play in some cases but if you go and read the steam reviews all the negative reviews are generally the same lack of interaction or a particular bug that makes the game unplayable for that person. If you look at the positive reviews majority of them are by people with a low number of hours invested into the game not all of them but a majority of them you looking at 20-40 hours of time on the game.

- Your throwing a comparison of interaction Larion is losing that argument heavily when compared to the competition. When there direct competitors in CRPG time lines are interacting weekly/Bi-weekly in streams with the community and you compare that directly to them where we get a couple comments after a patch is posted and nothing for several months later its a bad reflection.

But again I am not knocking the game I am just stating releasing it as EA with expectations that were set. I would not recommend anyone get the early access version of the game as I posted in my review on steam because there communication is poor. At same time I also stated that I do think the game will probably be much better at full release but there poor communication which can directly be compared to there competitors would make me recommend the competition over them when looking at getting a game in early access weather the full version is better or not. The rate at which the content is being release they have already said will be longer than 2021 so there is no way they will make the OCT 6 deadline of 1 year still listed on the steam early access information. Which should actually be updated as well technically as its misleading.

I would not hold them to that however the other stuff such as regular updates and interacting with the community I would hold them to as that is a showing of good faith. I actually wouldnt be suprised to see WoTC change companies in the future when releasing games down the road. Neverwinter Online which is a horrible game even patched content 1 week following the release of Van Richtens guide to Ravenloft to add content into there game related to the recient book release. Which shows the thoughts you would expect to see them expecting from Larion with how content for the game comes out as well.

If you want a direct comparison go look up pathfinder wrath of the righteous on the steam news and announcements and compare it directly to BG3 as they are directly competing games in comparison you talking you never see 2 weeks without an update. BG3 last news or announcements were in February there is your direct comparison. June 2nd may 25th may 22nd may 21st may 20th may 12th off top of my head were last updates posted on it. its not knocking larion as bg 3 on full release due to the 5e system itself should be a better balanced game compared to 3.5 dnd and bg3 is a much nicer looking game so if done well it could be much better overall but when you compare the rate at which you get updates and content and what you get for the early access direct comparison WoTR is kicking the snot out of them. Having played both games in EA as well as Solasta. WOTR is the clear leader at the moment. When the games originally released I would have given BG3 the better review.

Currently In CRPG direct competition at the moment your looking at POE:2, PF:WoTR, Solasta and BG3. I haven't played POE:2 and solasta because it will not release all the classes cant beat BG3 assuming it releases all the classes in its current state at full release. However WoTR kicks it in the teeth and asks if it would like another which if you were gonna spend money and had bought not bought any of the games is where I would say spend your money currently till bg3 hits its full release and we see how they stack up against each other. My initial review would have put bg3 in the lead but having both games for 6 months + of EA I would give pathfinder the advantage.
Posted By: Tuco Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 12/06/21 03:10 PM
Even if people love to throw these terms around without a clue, they should theoretically have specific definition.

It's al alpha when when a game is not feature-complete yet.
It's a beta when it's feature-complete and every update is a candidate for the final release (bugs permitting).
BG3 is unquestionably an alpha at the current state.

Being "early access" or not is not mutually exclusive with either descriptor. And in fact the definitions typically overlap. "Early access" just means that users are allowed to have access to a build, in whatever state it is, before a public release (usually in exchange of having to pay ahead).
Posted By: Merry Mayhem Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 12/06/21 03:20 PM
Personally, I don't understand why they don't have a community manager and staff handing this, supposedly have have 300 plus people working at Larian and they can have 5-10 people working on communications.

Look at D&D Beyond, tiny company, weekly dev updates and several other videos every week. How can they do it? They have a community manager and staff to handle it.
Posted By: mrfuji3 Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 12/06/21 03:48 PM
Originally Posted by Merry Mayhem
Personally, I don't understand why they don't have a community manager and staff handing this, supposedly have have 300 plus people working at Larian and they can have 5-10 people working on communications.
The Larian person who most fulfills the roll of "community manager" is Swen himself, which is one of the main issues with Larian's communication imo. This worked well as a small studio, but now that Swen has to manage multiple studios and hundreds of employees across the world, it's too much to do both.

The bigger of the BG3 Patches came with a youtube video or a multi-hour Panel from Hell, both with Swen as the lead, and require so much more work and coordination than a forum post or tweet or AMA by a dedicated community manager every ~2-4 weeks.

Swen can and should continue creating these fun Larian videos for big events (announcement of a new game, EA release of that game, and the full release), but I think he needs to relinquish his role for ~all smaller updates.
Posted By: gaymer Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 17/06/21 06:38 AM
Still no promised community update after over a month since announced.

With the amount of time elapsed between Patch 4, this is the most pivotal patch and will confirm or dispel a lot of suspicion about the direction of the game. The game is about to be in EA for a year soon.

So if Patch 5 does not have changes to the numerous issues that have been brought up to Larian across multiple channels, it will be safe to say they are not planning on correcting those.
Posted By: Abits Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 17/06/21 07:19 AM
You can say the same about patches 3 and 4. The criticism was mostly there from the get go. If Larian didn't addressed these issues, I doubt they will. All they need to do is to admit that and stop feeding us false hope
Posted By: Saito Hikari Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 17/06/21 09:00 AM
Originally Posted by Abits
You can say the same about patches 3 and 4. The criticism was mostly there from the get go. If Larian didn't addressed these issues, I doubt they will. All they need to do is to admit that and stop feeding us false hope

The main difference is that we are nearly entering 4 months of total silence, while the previous patches had about a 2-3 month gap between them. There's a good chance that it'll be 5-6 months before the next patch is released.

Expectations are going to be sky high.
Posted By: Tuco Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 17/06/21 09:44 AM
Aside for the gap between patches, which is just of relative relevance (most of this stuff is probably being worked since before the EA even started, anyway) what's more relevant is that we aren't in "the early days of EA" anymore. We are getting close to clocking a full year at this point.
Every remaining issue will start to look more and more as an EVERLASTING one unless Larian clarifies otherwise.
Posted By: Kimuriel Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 17/06/21 10:21 AM
Originally Posted by Tuco
Aside for the gap between patches, which is just of relative relevance (most of this stuff is probably being worked since before the EA even started, anyway) what's more relevant is that we aren't in "the early days of EA" anymore. We are getting close to clocking a full year at this point.
Every remaining issue will start to look more and more as an EVERLASTING one unless Larian clarifies otherwise.

Well feedback on possible difficulties/impact on development cycle by the pandemic might be helpful too, to be honest. I've noticed many things have slowed down quite a bit when it comes to decelopment pace of games. I follow various EA currently and some have been noticeably slower due to the covid situation. I wouldn't be surprised if Larian, even with seven studios spread across various parts of the globe, is having similar issues. The more they stay silent, the more trolls will start to suggest they ran off with our money. This is especially true on forums such as the ones of Steam. People get antsy when they don't get somewhat regular updates about progress.

I really hope they will manage to address the majority of the issues posed by the more hardcore D&D fans, albeit some stuff might be down to limitations of the new divinity engine they came up with for this title.

But in the end we will have to wait and see. I do not see this game releasing this year at any rate, it is much larger in scope than Original Sin 2 by far due to the increased complexity of D&D rules. I mean they will have to make wizards unable to learn some spells (e.g. the cleric ones and based on subclass of wizard too), make the ability to use scrolls limited to certain (sub)classes.. just to name a few.

I'm pretty optimistic I'll like the end result though, if it will surpass Original Sin Series for me will remain to be seen. As long as they fix my gripes with wizard, stealth, seperate jump and disengage and scroll usage I'll be more or less pleased. And reactions too (if engine allows such stuff).

On the topic of Jump/Disengage.. is it only possible to jump out of melee range when you use this thing in turn-based mode?? Seeing it used to be you running away like the goblins still do.. Or maybe I am just remembering it wrong.
Posted By: Tuco Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 17/06/21 10:53 AM
The notions of Larian "running away with the money" or "Never completing the game" are frankly too stupid to even entertain with as a thought experiment.
That's not going to be an actual problem with this project.

What they are gong to release, exactly, and at what point they'll be satisfied enough with what they have (without feeling any ulterior urge to reiterate or improve on) is what's worth discussing.

Also, I said multiple times in the past that I'd be shocked if this game released before mid 2022, but I have absolutely no problem with it. "Release it quickly!" has never been one of my worries or desires.
Knowing in what direction they are moving, on the other hand, definitely is.
Posted By: Abits Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 17/06/21 12:14 PM
I think the main difference between than and now is the amount of room Larian have for working. The longer they will keep the silence, less people will be willing to give them the benefit of the doubt
Posted By: Rieline Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 17/06/21 01:32 PM
Problem is not even the timing between patches but what is starting really to annoy me is the total lack of communication and this is always bad for an early access.

What they are working on?

Are they going to fix D&D heresies such as the wizard learning cleric spell?

Are they going to get closer to the pen and paper rules?

We could finally see other classes as well?

Last time a major patch landed we just had the druid and some minor story alteration as well cinematics fixes.

But that's about it.
Posted By: gaymer Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 17/06/21 06:18 PM
A new video interview dropped today.
Posted By: Seraphael Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 17/06/21 06:35 PM
Originally Posted by gaymer
A new video interview dropped today.

Indeed.




Interviewer: Are you making big changes to systems that are already in the game?
Swen: We are actually.

Make of that what you will, but seeing is believing at this point.
Posted By: Tuco Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 17/06/21 06:37 PM
We are now discussing the same video on four different threads?
Posted By: Seraphael Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 17/06/21 06:40 PM
Originally Posted by Tuco
We are now discussing the same video on four different threads?

Not everyone makes a home of the forum like you Tuco wink
Posted By: Tuco Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 17/06/21 06:44 PM
Originally Posted by Seraphael
Originally Posted by Tuco
We are now discussing the same video on four different threads?

Not everyone makes a home of the forum like you Tuco wink
But everyone can fucking check the last threads updated in this very same section and see what the posts are about? That's what I did.
I didn't know the video was already discussed because I get a fucking telegram every time a new topic is started.

And you can spare me your condescending bullshit, since I've been on this forum (sparsely and while doing other things) for the last 20 minutes at most, not the last 10 hours.

P.S. Also, it was meant just a fairly neutral heads-up. You could have acknowledged it and own your innocent mistake without being a bitter prick and going into gratuitous personal attacks.
Posted By: Nyloth Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 17/06/21 07:02 PM
Originally Posted by gaymer
A new video interview dropped today.

Oh, good! At least some information~
Posted By: Maximuuus Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 17/06/21 07:11 PM
Edit : https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=777241#Post777241
Posted By: CJMPinger Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 17/06/21 07:17 PM
Ok, so, I like this interview. It isn't the most specific thing but then thing I have been asking for are vague stuff, and he has confirmed that he was working on big system stuff, that he is hoping for 2022, and that they are supposedly reading this forum and accounting for our feedback.
Swen needs to do more interviews like this cause this feels like a godsend to me.
There are some things that were eh to me, like how he is saying he has to account for players jumping from DOS2 to BG3. I personally had none of those expectations because it was BG3, not DOS3, but I guess I can see where he comes from. But overall, that there was some communication is what I needed.

If anyone at Larian sees this, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE do more of these. Take as much time as you need with content, but more communication like this is the thing that sustains me through this EA.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 17/06/21 08:00 PM
Originally Posted by Tuco
But everyone can fucking check the last threads updated in this very same section and see what the posts are about? That's what I did.
Speaking for myself, i usualy skip topics like theese lately. :-/
Usualy there is no usefull information ... unless you concider counting days since "soon" was told as usefull. laugh

So i would not blame people to repeat it few times. smile

After all, we all know that even we tend to repeat most burning topics in other threats aswell. :P
Posted By: Tuco Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 17/06/21 08:13 PM
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Speaking for myself, i usualy skip topics like theese lately. :-/
Usualy there is no usefull information ... unless you concider counting days since "soon" was told as usefull. laugh
You aren't fooling anyone.
You rare constantly everywhere.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 17/06/21 08:22 PM
Usualy ... not allways. laugh
That would be a really bad lie. laugh

I check the forum aproximately 4-10 times per day, depends on free time (and how bored i curently am) ... the more time (and boredom, ofc) the more irellevant topics i read. laugh
Posted By: gaymer Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 28/06/21 09:37 AM
We will be two weeks out from the interview this week and into July.
Posted By: Alexandrite Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 28/06/21 11:49 AM
That's ok. At least it's only 2 weeks now and not 6 weeks of silence. I'm glad they did the interview, and there are plenty of updates happening on the Steam Database so they're definitely getting closer to something.
Posted By: Maximuuus Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 28/06/21 11:53 AM
7 weeks since the "we'll be back soon with a larger community update" and 2 weeks from the "patch 5 is right at the corner"...
It help to understand what those sentences and words mean for them.
Posted By: Alexandrite Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 28/06/21 11:59 AM
And very recently the worldwide Covid situation has taken a turn for the worse. Let's give them a break for now.
Posted By: Tuco Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 28/06/21 01:18 PM
Originally Posted by Alexandrite
That's ok. At least it's only 2 weeks now and not 6 weeks of silence. I'm glad they did the interview, and there are plenty of updates happening on the Steam Database so they're definitely getting closer to something.
Well, technically they still didn't bother to say shit to us.
We know something is brewing just because they made an interview with a game magazine (which was spotted by other users, or chances are we wouldn't know about that either, because no formal communication about it was made here).
Posted By: TestyMcTesterson Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 28/06/21 03:56 PM
Originally Posted by Tuco
Well, technically they still didn't bother to say shit to us.
We know something is brewing just because they made an interview with a game magazine (which was spotted by other users, or chances are we wouldn't know about that either, because no formal communication about it was made here).

Yeah they didn't even put out a tweet saying there's a new interview, it was very lowkey.

Weird method of communication.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 28/06/21 04:26 PM
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
7 weeks since the "we'll be back soon with a larger community update" and 2 weeks from the "patch 5 is right at the corner"...
It help to understand what those sentences and words mean for them.
Also 2 weeks from the "we did not expect it will take us this long" ... so, that is something.

Originally Posted by Alexandrite
And very recently the worldwide Covid situation has taken a turn for the worse. Let's give them a break for now.
+1

BTW
Originally Posted by Alexandrite
there are plenty of updates happening on the Steam Database so they're definitely getting closer to something.
Where do you check that? O_o
Posted By: Tuco Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 28/06/21 04:53 PM
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Where do you check that? O_o
From the very same SteamDatabase page that has been mentioned (and linked) give or take fifty more times even in this exact thread?
https://steamdb.info/app/1086940/depots/

Just a stab in the dark.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 28/06/21 05:09 PM
Thanks
Posted By: andreasrylander Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 28/06/21 05:48 PM
Aaah!!! What if it's soon, what if it's soon, what if it's soon??? Hype! Well... a bit of hype at least! =)
I still have this naive dream that they've listened a lot to people's feedback!
Posted By: virion Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 28/06/21 06:19 PM
Originally Posted by andreasrylander
Aaah!!! What if it's soon, what if it's soon, what if it's soon??? Hype! Well... a bit of hype at least! =)
I still have this naive dream that they've listened a lot to people's feedback!

i mean that's not naivety. They most likely listened and had by now 9 months to find a way to work with it. That's enought to make a new little human so I guess they figured out what choices to make based on feedback. The question isn't didn't they listen. The question is...what choices did they make?

For this and even more breaking news wait for the next community update. Soon.
Posted By: andreasrylander Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 28/06/21 09:46 PM
Yaaaaay!
Posted By: Blackheifer Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 28/06/21 09:52 PM
Originally Posted by andreasrylander
Aaah!!! What if it's soon, what if it's soon, what if it's soon??? Hype! Well... a bit of hype at least! =)
I still have this naive dream that they've listened a lot to people's feedback!

Don't stop dreaming. Stay positive and good things will happen. I think a lot of us are waiting on this patch as the answer to a lot of outstanding questions. Most of us are in agreement on the changes we would like to see - and now its up to Larian to respond to that.

And hey, if we don't get everything then its not the end of the world, but hopefully we get some stuff. I think we all have a little list in our head of the top three things we want to see changed/removed.

For me:

1. Barrlemancy
2. Throwing people without checks
3. Reactions/ready actions
4. Jump - Disengage separated and disengage made a full action.

I know what Tuco's are;

1. Toilet chain
2. Toilet chain
3. Toilet chain laugh
Posted By: CJMPinger Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 28/06/21 09:56 PM
I genuinely hope they go into detail about their decisions, the why for each thing.
That aid us greatly and would facilitate conversation.
If they say, "We chose to keep barrels because we found in our testing people found them more fun!" we can then give our feedback saying "We agree they are fun" or "We really do not find it fun" or the many in betweens.

If I was to consider my own list, it'd be more broad with the categories of:

1. Closer to 5e Mechanics/Toned Back Homebrew
2. Non-Origin Companions (Not Mercenary System)
3. Fix Conjuration and Summoning
Posted By: andreasrylander Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 28/06/21 10:02 PM
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
Originally Posted by andreasrylander
Aaah!!! What if it's soon, what if it's soon, what if it's soon??? Hype! Well... a bit of hype at least! =)
I still have this naive dream that they've listened a lot to people's feedback!

Don't stop dreaming. Stay positive and good things will happen. I think a lot of us are waiting on this patch as the answer to a lot of outstanding questions. Most of us are in agreement on the changes we would like to see - and now its up to Larian to respond to that.

And hey, if we don't get everything then its not the end of the world, but hopefully we get some stuff. I think we all have a little list in our head of the top three things we want to see changed/removed.

For me:

1. Barrlemancy
2. Throwing people without checks
3. Reactions/ready actions
4. Jump - Disengage separated and disengage made a full action.

I know what Tuco's are;

1. Toilet chain
2. Toilet chain
3. Toilet chain laugh


Mmm yeah. I agree about barrelmancy, a REAL reaction system, dodge/ready actions, the jump thing, the chaining system too for sure... but would also like to add advantage/disadvantage based on height and the "backstab advantage" mechanic, aswell as all spells available for wizards, lack of ritual casting and a proper resting system that limits the spam of long rest.
Posted By: Blackheifer Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 28/06/21 10:06 PM
Originally Posted by CJMPinger
I genuinely hope they go into detail about their decisions, the why for each thing.
That aid us greatly and would facilitate conversation.
If they say, "We chose to keep barrels because we found in our testing people found them more fun!" we can then give our feedback saying "We agree they are fun" or "We really do not find it fun" or the many in betweens.

If I was to consider my own list, it'd be more broad with the categories of:

1. Closer to 5e Mechanics/Toned Back Homebrew
2. Non-Origin Companions (Not Mercenary System)
3. Fix Conjuration and Summoning


Too broad. Sets you up for disappointment.

Remind me never to let you cast any wish spells. Haha.




Originally Posted by andreasrylander
Mmm yeah. I agree about barrelmancy, a REAL reaction system, dodge/ready actions, the jump thing, the chaining system too for sure... but would also like to add advantage/disadvantage based on height and the "backstab advantage" mechanic, aswell as all spells available for wizards, lack of ritual casting and a proper resting system that limits the spam of long rest.

You have to choose, top 3-4
Posted By: CJMPinger Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 28/06/21 10:15 PM
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
Originally Posted by CJMPinger
If I was to consider my own list, it'd be more broad with the categories of:

1. Closer to 5e Mechanics/Toned Back Homebrew
2. Non-Origin Companions (Not Mercenary System)
3. Fix Conjuration and Summoning


Too broad. Sets you up for disappointment.

Remind me never to let you cast any wish spells. Haha.

To be fair, under each of those is long lists of individual changes and wants that go to the minutiae, just I have ranted much on most of them.
Also don't give me a Wish spell because I will spend hours just thinking up the phrasing to get EXACTLY what I want with it (or will be broad because I know the DM also likes to have fun and sometimes sowing Chaos is the best way for fun~)
Posted By: Saito Hikari Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 28/06/21 11:00 PM
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
Don't stop dreaming. Stay positive and good things will happen. I think a lot of us are waiting on this patch as the answer to a lot of outstanding questions. Most of us are in agreement on the changes we would like to see - and now its up to Larian to respond to that.

And hey, if we don't get everything then its not the end of the world, but hopefully we get some stuff. I think we all have a little list in our head of the top three things we want to see changed/removed.

For me:

1. Barrlemancy
2. Throwing people without checks
3. Reactions/ready actions
4. Jump - Disengage separated and disengage made a full action.

I know what Tuco's are;

1. Toilet chain
2. Toilet chain
3. Toilet chain laugh

Hmmm... Yeah, this is pretty much my priority list too, except I would move the positioning of these around and replace barrelmancy with height advantage/disadvantage. Barrelmancy is still a problem, but it's not a factor in the majority of fights unless you go out of your way to utilize it.

---

On a different note to pass the time with, Owlcat put up another update for Wrath of the Righteous. Very surprised they are announcing console release so soon (after PC launch at the beginning of September and still within the year), even more surprised that they are talking about designing the final dungeon of chapter 2/main hub area of chapter 3. Considering Drezen is probably one of the most fascinating areas I've ever seen in a cRPG in terms of how the game utilizes it, and I would have thought the devs would have liked to keep that a surprise.


Larian could probably take some notes in regarding to designing the city of Baldur's Gate later in BG3. Granted, I expect Baldur's Gate to beat out Drezen in terms of sheer scale, since you're only really in Drezen throughout chapter 3 right now (out of 4 in the beta) and the game has very few non-companion sidequests to begin with.

The main draw of Drezen is the amount of NPCs you'll see mingling around the town acting like normal townspeople, and your companions actually doing things with them and positioned in areas that make sense for their backgrounds depending on the progress of their quests. For example, Seelah is generally seen training with her fellow Crusaders and Paladins near the chapel, while the opposing Hellknights are positioned closer to the prison on the other side of the city (while Regill himself is at the advisor table in the citadel itself, recognized as the leader of the faction of Hellknights directly assisting you, while Seelah is a novice Crusader in comparison and thus doesn't get a seat at the table). Then there's Ember, who starts chapter 3 standing around by herself, but depending on what you do during her personal quests later, she may start preaching about forgiveness and gather a big crowd listening to her by the end of the chapter.

I expect us to stay in Baldur's Gate for much longer in comparison. Though if Baldur's Gate ends up being closer to Arx at the end of DOS2... That's going to be a big oof.
Posted By: Tuco Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 28/06/21 11:16 PM
The thing that surprised me the most about that WOTR announcement is that I was ready to bet they would delay the PC release at least once.
It seems it may release on schedule and they already planning the console one, instead.

Not that I care about playing this type of RPG on a console, anyway, but the implication that they are confident with it is reassuring.

Also, yes, may the toilet chain die in a fire.

P.S. Baldur’s Gate being ARX 2.0 would pretty much be my worst case scenario.
Posted By: Saito Hikari Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 28/06/21 11:52 PM
They originally aimed for June 2021 for WotR back when the kickstarter was announced. It was obvious from the state of beta phase 1 that June wasn't happening, and we actually hoped for a delay.

Hell, I'd argue that WotR probably needs one more month in the oven to the end of September or something. It's nowhere near Kingmaker launch bad, but for a cRPG of this scale, it could use a little bit more polish just in case.
Posted By: Icelyn Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 28/06/21 11:55 PM
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
And hey, if we don't get everything then its not the end of the world, but hopefully we get some stuff. I think we all have a little list in our head of the top three things we want to see changed/removed.

Here's my list: smile

1. Halsin made a companion!
2. Be able to use spells in dialogue
3. Option to select Tav as the character npcs speak to when dialogue starts automatically (for single player)
4. SWTOR-style group dialogue for co-op
Posted By: dwig Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 29/06/21 12:02 AM
Originally Posted by Icelyn
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
And hey, if we don't get everything then its not the end of the world, but hopefully we get some stuff. I think we all have a little list in our head of the top three things we want to see changed/removed.

Here's my list: smile

1. Halsin made a companion!
2. Be able to use spells in dialogue
3. Option to select Tav as the character npcs speak to when dialogue starts automatically (for single player)
4. SWTOR-style group dialogue for co-op

That's a pretty good list! But I expected you to select "Halsin made a companion!" for 1, 2, 3, and 4.

I'm not likely to play co-op, but 2 and 3 would be nice quality of life improvements.
Posted By: Icelyn Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 29/06/21 12:03 AM
Originally Posted by dwig
That's a pretty good list! But I expected you to select "Halsin made a companion!" for 1, 2, 3, and 4.
laugh
Posted By: Nyloth Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 29/06/21 12:15 AM
Originally Posted by CJMPinger
I genuinely hope they go into detail about their decisions, the why for each thing.
That aid us greatly and would facilitate conversation.
If they say, "We chose to keep barrels because we found in our testing people found them more fun!" we can then give our feedback saying "We agree they are fun" or "We really do not find it fun" or the many in betweens.

If I was to consider my own list, it'd be more broad with the categories of:

1. Closer to 5e Mechanics/Toned Back Homebrew
2. Non-Origin Companions (Not Mercenary System)
3. Fix Conjuration and Summoning

Whatever they tell you, you will be unhappy if it does not meet your requirements, as well as a lot of people on this forum. Many people will not even try to understand, because they are convinced that it is better only the way they like it.


Originally Posted by Blackheifer
I know what Tuco's are;

1. Toilet chain
2. Toilet chain
3. Toilet chain laugh

Yes, it is, thank you for making me laugh.
Posted By: mr_planescapist Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 29/06/21 12:33 AM
YES. That toilet chain needs to go. Late 90s we moved on from this archaic system. Is this how they still do their business in Belgium? I remember in 1993 still had those in my school in France. And we laughed about it.
In all honesty though, its more of a <WE ARE LARIAN> stamp of recognition thing more than anything else. Throwing all gameplay considerations out the window.
God its so cluncky. Even playing with a completely patched up latest version of DOS2 Im fighting that UI.
Posted By: CJMPinger Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 29/06/21 12:50 AM
This is the update to my own list, rather is is every thing I could think of off the top of my head that apply to each category. I don't exactly expect many of these in the next update, but these are things I want addressed sometime during the EA, and are things I care about with he game and system.

1) Closer to 5e Mechanics
- Turn Highground Advantage into a +2/-2 system.
- Tone back shove to have less distance and be a full action.
- Make consumables a full action.
- Add Ritual Casting
- Somehow limit longresting and base shortresting off of hitdie.
- Reduce custom surfaces effect on concentration.
- Fix Mage Hand and Find familiar (See later).
- Fix Thief Rogue to have its ability instead of two bonus actions.
- Fix Abjuration Wizard temp HP ability.
- Make barrels much heavier and tone back their frequency.
- Fix HP Bloat (I am fine with stat variance like a goblin wearing different armor so different AC, but HP Boat hurts everyone.)
- Make Jumping and Disengage separate things. (I am fine if Jump is a bonus action but provokes Attacks of Opportunity, while Disengage is a full action.)
- Throwing should be a full action (I forget if it isn't) and should be toned back considerably.
- Dipping should have a cost to it (have to apply oil to a weapon first then dip it, consuming oiled status).
- Magic Arrows should be toned back a bit so they do not invalidate arcane archery, should also be usuable with certain abilities.
- Sneak attack should have a pop up instead of used ability.
- Attacks of Opportunity should have a pop up instead of being automatic.
- Certain spells should have a popup.
- Wizards should not be able to learn spells not on a class list they possess.
- Scrolls usability should be limited to a character that possesses the spell list the scroll's spell is on.
- Ranger abilities should be tweaked a bit.
- Tasha's optional class features should be implemented for a smoother game experience.
- Pickpocketing should have more risk to it.
- Sneaking in the middle of combat should be much harder.
- Command should get more command words.
- When a spell can target multiple creatures but is not an aoe, the caster should be allowed to choose the creatures instead of a weird circle.
- Enemies shouldn't be intentionally proccing Opportunity Attacks just to break out of a charm person.
- Make it more clear what we are rolling and what our DC is as well as what is contributing. (Idealling instead of subtracting from dice number needed, just show the overall DC and then add at end.)
- Make it clear in combat what we are rolling and getting.
- Make it some kind of check to see enemy stats instead of automatic, perhaps a bonus action?
- Help Actions should grant advantage on a skill check or attack, not automatically heal someone when unconcious.
- Medicine check and healer's kit to stabilize/heal a downed character instead of help action that anyone can do.
- Proper implementation of versatility and finesse for weapons.
- Six character party max.
- Shapechanged Druids should still have control over spells like moonbeam.
- Shapechange animals and animal companions should have base stats and attacks (I am fine with extra ability given).
- Many spells should be treated as proper reactions with a popup.
- More tools and tool proficiencies should be added.
- Backgrounds should grant four proficiencies (since languages likely won't be added) among tools and skills and some kind of special ability or item (similar to how the companions all have something special), with the option of a custom background where one picks each proficiency and ability and the option to have no ability or less proficiencies.
- Food shouldn't heal nearly that much, and not in combat.
- Crafting should require the right tool and a check (Potions use Alchemist's supplies, Weapon's use smith's tools, etc).
- Every class should be able to pick a god for RP purposes (as well as the option of none, with that option locking one out of cleric/Non-oathbreaker paladin unless they convert to a religion, similarly an alignment should be pickable but it should have little mechanical significance.
- If one has speak with animals, it should be castable in a conversation with a beast.
- Switching weapons should be a bonus action, so should trading items.
- Hide should be a full action.
- Pickpocketing/Stealing/Slight of Hand should actually be doable in combat (to give more use to the Thief subclass) so that we can steal consumables and such off of enemies, but perhaps with disadvantage.
- Custom weapon abilities should be toned back so they are not always the best damaging choice.
- And Much Much More (And for Tuco fix Chain/Unchain cause it does mess with 5e movement mechanics badly)

2) Non-Origin Companions
- In conjunction with a 6 character party setup.
- I don't like the Mercenary System, but I do think there should be the option for it, whereas one can have possibly up to 5 custom characters at the camp with there being some cost to making them.
- Non-Origin companions do not need complex or long running companion quests, nor do they have to be as complex as their Origin counterparts.
- Certain Characters I think would make a lot of sense as a non-origin companion (Alfira and Volo as bards, Sazza as a rogue, Halsin or maybe even Kahgha as a Druid, Lump the enlightened would make an excellent Eldritch Knight, Shovel would make a perfect Necromancer companion, Us could possess a body in a faulty way leading to him being whatever class Larian wants, etc etc)
- Non-Origin Companions could run off of generic tags with only a few things being especially for them in dialogue.
- They could act as quest rewards as well as adding the ability for us to really flesh out our party and make compositions unique to us.
- They could really have a lot with the resources they currently have. With companions, assuming there is one origin character for each class, Larian could have 13 Origin Characters and any number of non-origin companions. There is the possibility to have a massive cast and I am all for it. (Heck, if Larian wants to go overboard, they legitimately could add one non-origin companion for each subclass, and have them already levelled and assigned to it when encountered. But I realize that is a pipe dream.)
- When we upgrade from a camp to a new home location, they could easily populate that new location amongst possibly merchants and other service providers.
- Makes it much more likely someone can make the kind of party they want, matching the alignment they wants.
- They could be hired through conversations, quests, and in some cases gold.
- It'll allow Larian to show off even more aspects of Faerun including races or even rarer creatures (Shovel could be a very very interesting perspective as a bound demon for example).
- The game will feel more like a BG game instead of a DOS game.
- It will allow us to test even more things better so that we can catch bugs and such.
- And not technically under this but is tangential, I DO NOT want companions who are not actively in the controlled party (in other words waiting at camp) to die arbitrarily like how companions did in DOS2.

3) Fix conjuration and Summoning (Separate from Closer to 5e cause I am especially passionate about this).
- Find Familiar Familiars should not be able to attack unless they are conjured through Pact of the Chain.
- Mage Hand should not have concentration.
- Mage Hand should not be able to attack (I could argue maybe push, but not attack).
- Mage Hand should have its utility returned.
- Arcane Trickster Mage Hand should have its abilities returned.
- Arcane Trickster Mage Hand should remain invisible.
- Mage Hand should be allowed to proc traps on purpose.
- Mage Hand should be better at carrying things.
- Mage Hand should not be surprised when summoned in combat.
- Mage Hand should use the caster's actions and bonus actions.
- Mage Hand should not dismiss Find Familiar.
- Mage Hand shouldn't have health nor be treated as a creature.
- Beast Companion should not dismiss Find Familiar.
- Flaming Sphere should not dismiss Find Familiar.
- Resting should not dismiss Find Familiar.
- A caster should be able to deliver touch spells through Find Familiar
- Pact of the Chain needs its Invocations including Tasha's Investment of the Chain Master.
- Find Familiar list is incomplete, particularly missing two Pact of the Chain familiars and many normal familiars.
- I do like the custom abilities familiars have received.
- Find Familiar should be cast through Ritual Casting if the caster possesses it or has Pact of the Chain/Pact of the Tome.
- Familiars should be better at carrying things.
- Familiars should be better at interacting with the world.
- Familiars should be able to provide the Help Action.
- Familiars should be able to be dismissed and resummoned for free as an action.
- Familiars should be considered as a Celestial, Fey, or Fiend (though I don't think one should have to pick every time they cast the spell, perhaps an option in the spells and preparation page?)
- Certain effects should have a limited range of 100 feet for Familiars UNLESS one has Voice of the Chain Master.
- Mage Hand should have a limited range.
- Flaming Sphere should not be treated like a creature.
- Beast Master's beast Companion List is very incomplete just in targets from BG3.
- Beast Master Ranger should be allowed to select Primal Companion instead of Beast Companion when they select the subclass as per Tasha's, with each Primal Companion variant taking its appearance from existing Beast Companion options.
- Druids should have the tasha's feature to have a familiar.
- This is homebrew but something I liked as an idea because it isn't uncommon for a player to work with a DM for a custom familiar, I think every Origin companions should be given one custom familiar option if/when they gain Find Familiar as a spell or feature. Especially since it is not uncommon for a familiar to reflect a caster in some ways.:
- Gale could have a Tressym or Mephit as per things he mentioned, he used to be an accomplished wizard.
- Astarion could have a bat, likely a vampire bat but fruit bat could be funny/cute.
- Shadowheart could have some sort of weaker Shadow or a special Raven as a Sharran.
- Laezel could have a custom lizard or baby salamander to tie into her desires to be a dragon rider for her queen.
- Wyll through his fiend warlock deal could have a Lemure or perhaps even Soul Larva.
- Future conjuration spells genuinely should have zero interaction with Find Familiar or Mage Hand.
- I'd like to see Tasha's Guide Conjuration spells be added to the game.
- I'd like to see more conjuration spells be tested/added to the EA.
Posted By: acatlas Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 29/06/21 01:08 AM
I mentioned before companions are a great way to change up the story having companions replace different companions depending on what route you took. Like Minthra vs will. Kagha vs Helsin ect. Depending what route you wanted to take there are plenty of ways to diversify those options and plenty of options present even in just the beginning aspect of the game.

Mercs though are a big interesting point for people who do want to develop a fully fleshed out party however I do think the 6 character system sits better for this as it allows you to min max your party fitting in 1-2 companions to fill niche roles while still keeping a party build closer to a design setup for a power player you may desire.

@CJMPinger there are plenty of companion options for them to expand all the way up to 1 companion from each of the 12 base classes getting most in the beginning of the game the others could easily be worked in shortly after.

Minthra vs Shadowheart
Helsin vs Kahga

There are plenty of ways to mix and match those characters with story plots to make for a story that fits for the party that people want. While keeping companions suited to fit the group in the way they feel they would like. There are plenty of great ways they could tie in different choices affecting companions leaving or joining into the same story arch. Creating interesting ways the game could be replayed to a different story arch / conclusion based on actions. Would but a final product much further off as you would need to kind of do a different ending somewhat for each character based on how you played out the story. But to an extent that could be left on the edge giving them time to toy with that more down the road. However that division in how parties / characters group join and play out creates inpact in choices ect. Also having characters have there own conclusive story line and unique traits that make them in someways better than the options you have from character creation for npcs also can impact this like for example by Asterion having a bite attack / vampire like powers in some ways makes him slightly better than a mercenary character while not being built to a players design. Doing similar things for all the characters gives them a unique flavor and a reason to choose them over a merc designed character. There are dozens of ways they can play with that interaction.
Posted By: CJMPinger Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 29/06/21 01:16 AM
Originally Posted by acatlas
I mentioned before companions are a great way to change up the story having companions replace different companions depending on what route you took. Like Minthra vs will. Kagha vs Helsin ect. Depending what route you wanted to take there are plenty of ways to diversify those options and plenty of options present even in just the beginning aspect of the game.

Mercs though are a big interesting point for people who do want to develop a fully fleshed out party however I do think the 6 character system sits better for this as it allows you to min max your party fitting in 1-2 companions to fill niche roles while still keeping a party build closer to a design setup for a power player you may desire.

@CJMPinger there are plenty of companion options for them to expand all the way up to 1 companion from each of the 12 base classes getting most in the beginning of the game the others could easily be worked in shortly after.

Minthra vs Shadowheart
Helsin vs Kahga

There are plenty of ways to mix and match those characters with story plots to make for a story that fits for the party that people want. While keeping companions suited to fit the group in the way they feel they would like. There are plenty of great ways they could tie in different choices affecting companions leaving or joining into the same story arch. Creating interesting ways the game could be replayed to a different story arch / conclusion based on actions. Would but a final product much further off as you would need to kind of do a different ending somewhat for each character based on how you played out the story. But to an extent that could be left on the edge giving them time to toy with that more down the road. However that division in how parties / characters group join and play out creates inpact in choices ect. Also having characters have there own conclusive story line and unique traits that make them in someways better than the options you have from character creation for npcs also can impact this like for example by Asterion having a bite attack / vampire like powers in some ways makes him slightly better than a mercenary character while not being built to a players design. Doing similar things for all the characters gives them a unique flavor and a reason to choose them over a merc designed character. There are dozens of ways they can play with that interaction.

Mm, I think Non-Origin companions also serve as a great opportunity for choice. I actually really want the option to have Halsin stay and lead his circle and we bring Khaga with us to give her some redemption and also because she is just as competent of a druid as Halsin is. With Minthara, I'd actually like to straight up recruit her but we have to convince Wyll to stay, like how in datamining it shows we may have to convince Shadowheart and Laezel to not murder eachother. I do think it should be possible but a genuine challenge to have every companion in the game recruited, because there should be clear conflicts and ideological differences, but with the Origin companions you have a common goal and there is a clear greater good that perhaps even some evil characters would aid because The Absolute is messing with their ambitions or plans.
Though my ideal is 13 Origin companions, one for each class. And then Non-Origin companions added on. One for each subclass is a pipe dream in pure numbers, but a large amount would allow us the chance to really play around with party composition and give feedback on every class and subclass.
Edit: Also I wouldn't frontload non-origin companions, I think they should be found throughout most of the game, or at least the first two or three Acts (depending on how many there are) and I'd spread them out, give them their own requirements for joining, etc etc. Shoving em all into Act One would feel a bit unnatural and could be overwhelming past the 12 Origin companions.
Posted By: acatlas Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 29/06/21 02:37 AM
Well technically there are 5 origin companions its easy for them to realistically fit in 7 after the origins more from the core books for the 12 base classes and probably an artificer in a dlc. As original plans based on what they said were the core 12 classes. Not all of those classes need the worm to do there own thing as I would personally hope that gets removed in chapter 2 leading to a more sinister plot as the worm will get old after a while.

Gale has something going on with the netherese. Lazeal has her own thing with gith progression. Asterion you have the Vampire bit, Shadowheart is missing part of her memories so i feel something like a chosen of shar plot or a twist between selunite background being hidden from her could go either way. Then will has the thing with his patron.

Kagha and Helsin // the grove makes for an interesting story line where you could basically choose the shadow druids / or the good side. Having to choose while i think its a nice idea to have all the companions having to choose brings some depth to it as your choosing between 1 class or another you experience something similar in Pathfinder WoTR and its one of the more compelling aspects of the story not being able to have all of them in 1 playthrough as that makes you want to experience more than 1 playthrough as oppose to just 1 shoting the entire thing it also brings in some diversity and change to the story based on how you go through it.

IMO ideally 24 companions with a choices that give you a total of 12 + the mercenary companions you make that's still a potential of a lot of diversity in the characters and a lot of plot to play with also more options could be added with more dlcs its something that gives depth to dlc content by adding companion options down the road. The subclasses are not such a big deal and you can tailor the characters to a subclass. Even getting them later in the story you could chose there progression as an option when you do get them. You still also have the main character so that is 18 which is a lot of choices and combinations you can do to make a party of 6 even. I do expect them to cap the core game somewhere between level 12 and 16 so. Based on the fact the original release was not expected to go all the way to 20. Which is good in a way as it makes multiclassing a much stronger option for mix matching classes as well.

Well it would be nice to keep all 12 characters i think being made to choose also brings about that division that makes you want to replay the game more. Having 12 vs 12 also leads to a much more interesting plot line because you still get 1 of each class just moved around so that your choosing the good companion vs the more evil companion. I feel that there is more depth planned to show more truth to the characters as well. Like despite that characters feel 1 way they may actually be a different direction under the surface I get that opinion a lot from the surface of Shadowheart. Like surface she's very much like a stuck up princess but as story goes on and you develop reputation with her she feels more like she is afraid to open up as a character. So that as the plot develope's you find out why her memory was wiped there will be more depth coming and she will actually end up being more likeable but its hard to see I cant really read Larions plans but that seems the direction they are headed with her.

It would be easier to work her in if they were making her a Selunite cleric in same way. But they could also kinda twist things and make some of the choices a complete suprise like maybe minthra is actually the good character and you cant figure that out till the absolute is defeated and shadow heart is actually evil to the core its hard to say there are so many different paths they could still take with it. Origins characters are more ment as starting alternatives to building your own character. DLC content I personally feel would be a better way to introduce more so it doesnt delay game release as much since you dont really need 12 character with there own unique story's from the start to make the game feel unique. Adding 1 to a DLC is a great way to keep the game pushing forward and expand on that in the future adding more to the base game bringing back replayability in all aspects over time but Id still like to see the core 12 character options available.

To me the ideal way would be 5 initials 7 additional characters later and then expand dlc content like:

DLC 1 - Artificer, Artificer character in the story added as an origins character... this expands even the beginning of the game. His own story expands into the additional content and you could extend the level cap to level 18 from 16. Adding a couple of extra story zones.

DLC 2 - Additional origins character expanding again the entire game encouraging a fresh play through. Level cap extends to 20. You get 1 new sub class for 6 of the base classes.

DLC 3 - Additional origins character - Alternate quests different items level cap not adjusted but speeds up and you get an additional subclass for the remaining 6 base classes.

DLC 4 - Epics levels extending with boons // level 25 using optional rules. 2 New races // 2 new artificer subclasses 1 new subclass for 3 of the base classes and a new origins character.

DLC 5 - Another new origins character, 3 more new subclasses additional questing zones and items. New Races x2.

DLC 6 - More races more subclasses more quests more items.

DLC 7 - Again More of the prior stuff continuing to add companions subclasses quests and items and zones.

You could build out from that and add years of replay ability to the game. The further you expand add the more you can do with the core game. You could even overlap and add more to it expanding with like Neverwinter//Icewind Dale ect as like full expansion games that could overlap with a complete new story that ties in as you progress further into there story archs but eventually tie in together giving you a new beginning to the game basically creating an expanding world that really could be taken to some serious depth over time. There is alot of room given proper attention to take the game in a lot of direction if larion really wanted to work with it. It could develops so far as an IP to eventually be its own expansive universe. But that all depends on how much they take it serious.

Right now they are not doing a good job in the faith aspect of that done properly you could release 15.00 dlcs with good content every several months and I know I would pay for them if they were done properly. and 30.00 - 50.00 alternate tie in expansions and if it added content to my game id complain in no regards. Totalwar: Warhammer 2 is a perfect example they created additional games tied into each other and even when a new game is coming out for it ill still buy the dlc content cause it can be carried over into the new game = mucho mucho $$$ for them and great enjoyable replayability for us as players. To the point you dont feel like you ever lose anything you just get an ever expanding ever more fun universe where the content is always good. To the point even 20 years down the road people would still buy the old content to get it in the new game. Someone new starts playing they want the stuff from the old game they would but it to expand there new game even more and the new game would still be interesting to existing players cause they are expanding there old game even more. Give you hundreds of thousands of hours of game play its what I think the true best way companies should be progressing with how to keep making money in the modern market. Its a much better system than concepts like loot boxes and subscriptions to games. Instead you just keep making your old content great combined into the new content.
Posted By: Blackheifer Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 29/06/21 04:17 AM
Originally Posted by acatlas
DLC 1 - Artificer, Artificer character in the story added as an origins character... this expands even the beginning of the game. His own story expands into the additional content and you could extend the level cap to level 18 from 16. Adding a couple of extra story zones.

DLC 2 - Additional origins character expanding again the entire game encouraging a fresh play through. Level cap extends to 20. You get 1 new sub class for 6 of the base classes.

DLC 3 - Additional origins character - Alternate quests different items level cap not adjusted but speeds up and you get an additional subclass for the remaining 6 base classes.

This is a very single player focused way of thinking of this game. The problem with single player is that its not really that great for replay-ability. Speaking for the Multiplayer Nation - the ones who rack up the serious hours (800+ in EA is average for my friends) we have a different priority list depending on how ambitious Larian wants to be.

We want to see DM Mode.

We want to see this as a Platform to run multiple campaigns

A DLC to me would be something like a new Module that was built by Larian that you could export characters through and into - like The Keep on the Borderlands, or Temple of Elemental Evil

In multiplayer we usually just murder the Origin characters because they don't matter. Did you know that?
Posted By: Saito Hikari Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 29/06/21 05:21 AM
Hmm, that's a good point. I am really beginning to wonder if Larian overextended themselves with wanting to create a single player game VS a multiplayer game. A lot of the current combat mechanics would be kinda fun in a multiplayer setting, but it clashes with the single player experience. While developing more companions is basically wasted effort for the multiplayer crowd too.

Maybe the greatest twist of irony is that Solasta and BG3 may have had mismatched priorities that would work better in the other game. As in, Solasta's character creation has you make your entire party from scratch with tags defining their personality and backgrounds, but it's a pure singleplayer game at the moment, when that concept would lend itself much better to a multiplayer setup. While BG3 has full fledged companions and still has a tag system, but the companions won't be appreciated in multiplayer, and multiplayer is the main thing that caused Larian's games to take off compared to all the other cRPG developers.

Perhaps that's why we have so few companions. With this train of thought, what's the point to writing more and voice acting them all when the game's longevity ultimately won't rely on them at all?

It's basically a different kind of argument to the base 5E VS Larian homebrew crowd. They want to have their cake and eat it too - as in, Larian wants to break out of their 'lol cheesy/slapstick humor' reputation among the wider gaming community with BG3's tone in regards to its single player-focused writing, but the multiplayer gameplay-focused crowd ultimately won't care.
Posted By: CJMPinger Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 29/06/21 05:35 AM
With Larian, I wouldn't even plan on paid DLC, rather, I wouldn't plan on content being added with DLC. Perhaps free updates like the grab bags, but nothing as big as the artificer or full companions.
With their past track record, even when it is wanted, they haven't done much in the way of DLC. Heck, DOS2 has one DLC, and it is a Squirrel with no mechanical and very little story significance, and for many that DLC was free, So I really would not count on Larian following other company's DLC plans.
If anything, a DLC I'd expect from them would be a whole Module or Expansion that would amount to its own game built with the existing mechanics, that seems more the MO of a first Big DLC for them, they seem to like to go big and emphasize player enjoyment.

Further more, it has been confirmed we will have more than 6 origin companions, though we do not know how many. 12-13 is the ideal number because that gives one tadpoled member for each class (the 13th being Artificer which I advocate a bit for.)

Also 12 companions would be too small for a Baldur's Gate game. If you look at the past titles, BG1 BG2 and even the SoD expansion, the games have A LOT of companions. Base Baldur's Gate has 25(!) companions, while the Enhanced Edition has a whopping 29! Baldur's Gate: Siege of Dragonspear has a total of 17 companions. And Baldur's Gate 2 has a total of 17 while the enhanced edition has 22 companions (with an extra sacrificial lamb one added on to be a temporary 13). The minimum the series has gone is 17, but with the resources Larian has they could go way more than that while delivering quality. Essentially, Larian has the chance to make the best cRPG in a long time just from a companion front.

Also I genuinely feel just 12 companions would be a disservice to the series. Not just from a size standpoint, but from a world standpoint too. Companions help flesh out a world, and Faerun has A LOT to flesh out. each companion is an opportunity to display a different facet of the world or a new perspective, from a basic knight who has taken up a sword to end bandits to a maniacal cleric/thief who believes himself to be a rising god, they act as unique characters that also give bits of the world. Limiting it to just 12 thus limits how much can be delivered. So I say add as many as Larian is willing to add, rather, add as many can be added without compromising the quality of the game.

Furthermore, locking companions behind a paywall would be something that'd sour me greatly. We as consumer's have gotten way to used to scummy DLC that we truly think of it as the norm, and locking things that should be packaged with the base game behind DLC is one of those things. I really hope larian doesn't go that route. If they must add something through DLC, add it in a full expansion with content, such as full campaign module to display BG3 as something that can host different campaigns (Heck, once mechanics are sorted out and long after the game is made, I'd definitely like to see a new Icewind Dale or Tomb of Horrors).

Edit: I am still of the mind that this should be developed as a single player game first and a multiplayer game second. I do want to see DM mode and the like, but as something later on once the single player has been refined. Though on that front, perhaps they should give Origin companions more purpose when not actively in the party so they can have purpose for Four Player games (or Six player if they ever finally up the party size).
Posted By: Saito Hikari Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 29/06/21 05:47 AM
IIRC Larian devs at some point have mentioned that they are fundamentally opposed to the idea of paid DLC now. To the level that a lot of Larian fans would believe the presence of such a thing in BG3 to be a betrayal at first glance, though I also believe in terms of actual practicality that most people will end up justifying it in their minds and come to terms with it within the week.

I think the last game they made that had that was with Divinity 2 (the main series Divinity, not Original Sin), which was well over a decade ago. However, as this is a WotC-contracted game, it's possible that BG3 may end up with paid DLC down the road.
Posted By: CJMPinger Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 29/06/21 05:56 AM
Originally Posted by Saito Hikari
IIRC Larian devs at some point have mentioned that they are fundamentally opposed to the idea of paid DLC now. To the level that a lot of Larian fans would believe the presence of such a thing in BG3 to be a betrayal at first glance, though I also believe in terms of actual practicality that most people will end up justifying it in their minds and come to terms with it within the week.

I think the last game they made that had that was with Divinity 2 (the main series Divinity, not Original Sin), which was well over a decade ago. However, as this is a WotC-contracted game, it's possible that BG3 may end up with paid DLC down the road.

Technically, Divinity Original Sin 2 had a singular Paid DLC, but everything was upfront about it and it was super cheap, and most people ended up getting it for free I think.

But yeah, them immediately going to small DLC packs or such would definitely feel like a complete betrayal. That and the company Electronic Arts has completely soured me to DLC companions. In particular, Mass Effect 3 is when I first realized that when I bought a DLC for a companion I was getting ripped off most of the time. That game had the audacity to do on disk DLC where the only difference between having the character (Who was super important to the overall story btw, like some of the biggest revelations of the series) was changing a statement from 0 to 1... And then I looked at other games and found that often times the character was either something cut off from the main product, or made alone to squeeze more money out of the game. DLC wise, I vastly prefer full expansions or standalone experiences. But even with Larian I think I would be pretty soured.

For Larian to properly sell a DLC to me, I think it'd have to be a full on expansion like the Witcher 3 expansions or a new Module like adpating existing DND modules into a videogame format. New classes, subclasses, and companions I would HATE to see behind a paywall, if added later on as grabbags that is fine. But if I see "DLC Pack #1: Xanathar's Guide To Everything," I do not think I will be particularly happy.
Posted By: CJMPinger Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 29/06/21 06:02 AM
Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Where do you check that? O_o
From the very same SteamDatabase page that has been mentioned (and linked) give or take fifty more times even in this exact thread?
https://steamdb.info/app/1086940/depots/

Just a stab in the dark.

interestingly the file titled Patch 5 at that link has been updated 4 hours ago, so it does seem that things are moving forward, maybe we will be lucky and this Thursday we will hear/see something? (Or maybe not, Patch 5 might be even longer...)

They also have the opportunity to call it Patch DnD 5e as a pun...
Posted By: Maximuuus Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 29/06/21 06:03 AM
It's now more or less clear that they don't really want to make a game that feels and play like DnD so I cannot imagine them trying to add new rules and spells and mechanics from other DnD module (and changing everything once again)

Originally Posted by CJMPinger
interestingly the file titled Patch 5 at that link has been updated 4 hours ago, so it does seem that things are moving forward, maybe we will be lucky and this Thursday we will hear/see something? (Or maybe not, Patch 5 might be even longer...)

Things has been updated a lot since a few weeks. Really. Every few day one of those file is updated.
This update may not mean anything else than all the others past few weeks.

I have more hope when nothing is updated. At least it make me think that the patch is in QA before release.
Posted By: CJMPinger Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 29/06/21 06:07 AM
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
It's now more or less clear that they don't really want to make a game that feels and play like DnD so I cannot imagine them trying to add new rules and spells and mechanics from other DnD module (and changing everything once again)

Originally Posted by CJMPinger
interestingly the file titled Patch 5 at that link has been updated 4 hours ago, so it does seem that things are moving forward, maybe we will be lucky and this Thursday we will hear/see something? (Or maybe not, Patch 5 might be even longer...)

Things has been updated a lot since a few weeks. Really. Every few day one of those file is updated.
This update may not mean anything else than all the others past few weeks.

Ah, pardon my ignorance.
Posted By: Maximuuus Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 29/06/21 06:10 AM
Originally Posted by CJMPinger
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
It's now more or less clear that they don't really want to make a game that feels and play like DnD so I cannot imagine them trying to add new rules and spells and mechanics from other DnD module (and changing everything once again)

Originally Posted by CJMPinger
interestingly the file titled Patch 5 at that link has been updated 4 hours ago, so it does seem that things are moving forward, maybe we will be lucky and this Thursday we will hear/see something? (Or maybe not, Patch 5 might be even longer...)

Things has been updated a lot since a few weeks. Really. Every few day one of those file is updated.
This update may not mean anything else than all the others past few weeks.

Ah, pardon my ignorance.

Oh no, I also hope it mean something. But really, I had been dissapointed every weeks since months following steam DB :p

Now I have in mind that the localisation file (I guess) has been updated so maybe it's the good week... But the loca summer file has been updated 4 times too since patch 4^^
Posted By: Try2Handing Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 29/06/21 06:20 AM
I'm still holding out the hope that they will surprise us big time with massive changes down the road: revamped engine, "toilet chain" gone, much better balanced rules - both homebrews and DnD, 6-person party, much more companions, better writing, etc. It's like, they had this very ambitious idea for this project, but needed to gather an appropriate amount of fund, so they used the label Baldur's Gate and the DnD appeal, and threw out a full-price EA. But they had to quickly put together something to show people, so they just used the DOS engine with its existing systems to make the demo/EA. Now that they have their money, who knows, they might be conducting large-scale overhauls of everything. The fact that they haven't said anything for such a long time may just mean that they're very confident that the changes they have implementing would justify the silence. Is this too optimistic I wonder?
Posted By: Blackheifer Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 29/06/21 06:27 AM
Originally Posted by Saito Hikari
Hmm, that's a good point. I am really beginning to wonder if Larian overextended themselves with wanting to create a single player game VS a multiplayer game. A lot of the current combat mechanics would be kinda fun in a multiplayer setting, but it clashes with the single player experience. While developing more companions is basically wasted effort for the multiplayer crowd too.

Maybe the greatest twist of irony is that Solasta and BG3 may have had mismatched priorities that would work better in the other game. As in, Solasta's character creation has you make your entire party from scratch with tags defining their personality and backgrounds, but it's a pure singleplayer game at the moment, when that concept would lend itself much better to a multiplayer setup. While BG3 has full fledged companions and still has a tag system, but the companions won't be appreciated in multiplayer, and multiplayer is the main thing that caused Larian's games to take off compared to all the other cRPG developers.

Perhaps that's why we have so few companions. With this train of thought, what's the point to writing more and voice acting them all when the game's longevity ultimately won't rely on them at all?

It's basically a different kind of argument to the base 5E VS Larian homebrew crowd. They want to have their cake and eat it too - as in, Larian wants to break out of their 'lol cheesy/slapstick humor' reputation among the wider gaming community with BG3's tone in regards to its single player-focused writing, but the multiplayer gameplay-focused crowd ultimately won't care.

Exactly. There is an overlap on certain priorities though. Speaking for the people in Multiplayer Nation we would be happier with Larian sticking closer to the core 5E rules and also removing barrlemancy. The ability to throw already incorporates bombs and flasks it doesn't need to include throwing monsters around (maybe Goblins, but with a check of some sort).

If you have not tried multiplayer I would encourage you to give it a shot with a good group.

And I also thought Solasta not having multiplayer was unfortunate as hell. I get why, but it still stings. Maybe Solasta 2.

And honestly, I always felt the Origin characters were more problem than they are worth. I get having them as companions, but I still think it makes more sense to not play one as an origin. You end up feeling serious FOMO when presented with the choice of an Origin character with all this extra backstory or your own character that is walking their own path.
Posted By: Maximuuus Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 29/06/21 06:37 AM
Originally Posted by Try2Handing
I'm still holding out the hope that they will surprise us big time with massive changes down the road: revamped engine, "toilet chain" gone, much better balanced rules - both homebrews and DnD, 6-person party, much more companions, better writing, etc. It's like, they had this very ambitious idea for this project, but needed to gather an appropriate amount of fund, so they used the label Baldur's Gate and the DnD appeal, and threw out a full-price EA. But they had to quickly put together something to show people, so they just used the DOS engine with its existing systems to make the demo/EA. Now that they have their money, who knows, they might be conducting large-scale overhauls of everything. The fact that they haven't said anything for such a long time may just mean that they're very confident that the changes they have implementing would justify the silence. Is this too optimistic I wonder?

Ready to be dissapointed ?

I have the same hopes but unfortunately I think their vision is to adapt the setting to their style rather than adapt their style to the setting.
Posted By: Etruscan Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 29/06/21 07:00 AM
Originally Posted by Try2Handing
Is this too optimistic I wonder?

Far too optimistic. A leopard doesn’t change its spots and I really can’t envisage Larian suddenly having an Ebeneezer Scrooge-like epiphany.

Would love to be wrong of course. Can’t see it though.
Posted By: Saito Hikari Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 29/06/21 07:01 AM
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
And honestly, I always felt the Origin characters were more problem than they are worth. I get having them as companions, but I still think it makes more sense to not play one as an origin. You end up feeling serious FOMO when presented with the choice of an Origin character with all this extra backstory or your own character that is walking their own path.

I still maintain that Origin characters are a waste of resources that take away from a lot of other things in the game. What should have really been done is emphasizing backgrounds for a custom main character like what DA:O did, instead of a misguided attempt to add replay value by locking dialogue options and cutscenes behind making one of the companions your designated main character. There's talk about a dream scene that's exclusive to Astarion origin. I feel like such a thing would be FAR better utilized as something you'd get to see as part of romancing Astarion.

At the same time, the writers could tighten up the companion writing, instead of being forced to make them open ended enough to have them all become plausible 'main character' material. A very subtle thing I've noticed is that your character is not allowed to actually disagree with what the companions suggest by explaining why you believe certain things are a bad idea, all you can do in most situations is either drop the subject or forcefully deny them. I've been comparing BG3 dialogue options to Pathfinder WotR options lately. The options where you disagree with others in the latter tend to be framed more as coming from an alignment/background standpoint instead of a pure contest of influence/power, and some disagreements actually do result in the companions taking what you've said to heart or arguing back, instead of a simple 'character disapproves' message. Stuff like this has an extremely subtle effect at making your character feel like your own character rather than a bystander in the world.

(Honestly, rolling skill checks against your party members at the frequency that BG3 makes you do it is kind of a ridiculous concept too. If the companion has high enough approval or you did a great favor for them, you shouldn't have to roll. You don't have to roll against your party members in most other cRPGs because them opening up to you inherently shouldn't be left up to random chance.)
Posted By: CJMPinger Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 29/06/21 07:18 AM
Originally Posted by Saito Hikari
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
And honestly, I always felt the Origin characters were more problem than they are worth. I get having them as companions, but I still think it makes more sense to not play one as an origin. You end up feeling serious FOMO when presented with the choice of an Origin character with all this extra backstory or your own character that is walking their own path.

I still maintain that Origin characters are a waste of resources that take away from a lot of other things in the game. What should have really been done is emphasizing backgrounds for a custom main character like what DA:O did, instead of a misguided attempt to add replay value by locking dialogue options and cutscenes behind making one of the companions your designated main character. There's talk about a dream scene that's exclusive to Astarion origin. I feel like such a thing would be FAR better utilized as something you'd get to see as part of romancing Astarion.

At the same time, the writers could tighten up the companion writing, instead of being forced to make them open ended enough to have them all become plausible 'main character' material. A very subtle thing I've noticed is that your character is not allowed to actually disagree with what the companions suggest by explaining why you believe certain things are a bad idea, all you can do in most situations is either drop the subject or forcefully deny them. I've been comparing BG3 dialogue options to Pathfinder WotR options lately. The options where you disagree with others in the latter tend to be framed more as coming from an alignment/background standpoint instead of a pure contest of influence/power, and some disagreements actually do result in the companions taking what you've said to heart or arguing back, instead of a simple 'character disapproves' message. Stuff like this has an extremely subtle effect at making your character feel like your own character rather than a bystander in the world.

(Honestly, rolling skill checks against your party members at the frequency that BG3 makes you do it is kind of a ridiculous concept too. If the companion has high enough approval or you did a great favor for them, you shouldn't have to roll. You don't have to roll against your party members in most other cRPGs because them opening up to you inherently shouldn't be left up to random chance.)

I am fine with them having Unique dialogue options for if they enter a conversation, adds some depth where you can reckon that Laezel should be the face and decider of what happens when encountering Zorru or Wyll might be able to say something to Kagha, etc etc. But making them preset fully playable characters with their own sequences and dreams and such honestly is a bit much, and I'd genuinely think those resources would be better spent on non origin companions. Its something that makes sense for DOS but doesn't really work out for BG3 in my eyes.
Posted By: Maximuuus Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 29/06/21 08:35 AM
Origin characters is a concept that will never work. It was fine in DoS because it was the first time but the point of playing such role playing game is to create your own characters.

- Origin would be fine (choose an origin for your custom character)
- "Origin" companions could be fine (deep companions that have their own story)

But Origin characters takes a lot of ressources (money, writting constraints,...) for a very debatable interrest.

You don't need origin characters to have preset characters and I'm not sure Larian's game need even more replayability through origin characters.
There are so much classes and builds, and skills and story pathes and so on that the replayability is probably already enough for everyone.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 29/06/21 09:47 AM
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
And hey, if we don't get everything then its not the end of the world, but hopefully we get some stuff. I think we all have a little list in our head of the top three things we want to see changed/removed.
I want Larian to release a staement, where they tell us that they do not wish to change anything, bcs game is perfect as it is ...
Just for the fun of all those angry coments, that will be here. laugh

Now for real ...
My list is quite short surprisingly ...
1) Popup reactions
Well ... that is it. I had second thing, but i forgot it ... so it was probably not so important. laugh

What i really want to see is something like list of our "mega-threats" with notes like: concidering implementation / noted, will be concidered / absolutely not ... so we at least know their vision a little.

//edit:
Oh and statement if they are concidering implementing all races, classes and subclases into EA ... or if some (and preferably wich one) will stay hidden until full release ... would be apreciated. smile
Posted By: Dez Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 29/06/21 10:04 AM
If we're making a wish-list - count me in!

1) Fix dialogues at camp so that players no longer can accidentally overlap / miss conversation due to not camping often enough. c:
2) I'd like to see some changes to the character creation screen. First of all, I find it really odd that the class is picked AFTER pure customization - I feel like one often has to go back and fourth in order to get all stats and proficiencies right unless one knows EXACTLY what they are doing from the beginning.
3) I really hope they add the missing classes / sub-classes soon so that they get their proper testing time - not even necessarily because I want to play them myself since the only one I want to try is a paladin in a full custom party (for RP reasons alone).
4) I would at least like to know who our new companions will be (both origin and non-origins if that is relevant) - even if they do not directly add them to the game itself just yet. c:
5) I have joined the height advantage crew and would rather see a flat bonus instead of just pure advantage.
Posted By: Tuco Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 29/06/21 11:03 AM
Originally Posted by Icelyn
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
And hey, if we don't get everything then its not the end of the world, but hopefully we get some stuff. I think we all have a little list in our head of the top three things we want to see changed/removed.

Here's my list: smile

1. Halsin made a companion!
2. Be able to use spells in dialogue
3. Option to select Tav as the character npcs speak to when dialogue starts automatically (for single player)
4. SWTOR-style group dialogue for co-op

Point 2 was basically already confirmed to be in the plans. Or at least so Larian claimed at some point, still unsure if something changed.
Point 4 is also something that they talked about, even if TOR wasn't something they mentioned explicitly. They just said they are working on an UI "to make all party members feel part of the conversation", whatever that translates to in Larian terms.

I'd also add "Fuck Halsin", but then again I guess that's pretty much the whole idea there.

But since we are doing wishlists, here's mine.

1- Unsurprisingly, "Get rid of the toilet chain and give us a control scheme that doesn't induce cancer on the user" is indeed my top priority. If nothing else because it's the thing I can't confidently hope will be addressed by modders without having the foundations in place. Not only it's an absolute priority, but there's absolutely no sensible, acceptable argument to be made about why it couldn't be addressed relatively easily if they only TRIED.
2- I'd put "day/night cycle" here, but it's more a pipe dream than a realistic expectation, given Larian bizarre adversity for this feature and the way they treat it as it would be fucking quantum physics to figure out. So I'll settle for addressing a lot of minor "larianisms" currently affecting the core ruleset like a terminal illness. You know the drill: jump/disengage as bonus action, shove as bonus action and a comedic cartoon gag, loads of surprisingly light explosive barrels every-goddamn-where, etc. Basically: "stick closer to the core mechanics".
3- A proper reaction system would marry very well with the previous point.
4- A decent rest system that doesn't rely on convoluted, bizarre instancing in a parallel pocket universe would be ideal here, but it's another pipe dream and not something they are going to address this late in development, so I guess the ability to manage an extended party would be ideal here. Both in terms of being able to have a larger active group (you know, the canonical six-men group) and in terms of having all your companions gathering in one place and playing an active role even when not actively grouped, as it happens in games like Kingmaker, WOTR, DA, etc.
5- Making a more liberal use of the world map for travels and encounters, eventually separating minor locations in distinct maps, without this insistence of sticking everything few meters away from the next thing in an intricate diorama-like structure (which admittedly Larian is very good at leveraging... It's just not necessarily a good fit for every scenario).
Posted By: Tuco Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 29/06/21 11:28 AM
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Origin characters is a concept that will never work. It was fine in DoS because it was the first time but the point of playing such role playing game is to create your own characters.

- Origin would be fine (choose an origin for your custom character)
- "Origin" companions could be fine (deep companions that have their own story)

But Origin characters takes a lot of ressources (money, writting constraints,...) for a very debatable interrest.

You don't need origin characters to have preset characters and I'm not sure Larian's game need even more replayability through origin characters.
There are so much classes and builds, and skills and story pathes and so on that the replayability is probably already enough for everyone.
It's also bizarre that so many people (and journalists) claim that they LOVED the feature when speaking in abstract, but then if you are having a frank conversation one-on-one with them and you try to pressure them into giving more details on how this affected their behavior they start to rethink about it.

Typical case:
"Oh, I love the playable Origins. I want it in every game".
"Yeah? So when you finished playing DOS 2, which is the companion that you felt this urge to replay the entire game as main character"
Follows awkward silence. Then someone attempts to namedrop some companion.
"So, did you actually replay the game as him/her? How far did you actually go with it? Did your perspective on the character changed significantly having him/her as playable rather than as a companion?"
What follows here is typically stumbling and muttering, with some reticent admission that no, it didn't really do much for them and maybe they didn't even finish the game once, actually. And not twice for sure.
They just liked it in principle, without a single care in the world for what it would imply design-wise and what else got sacrificed in the process of allowing this feature to exist.

As a general question, I'd be tempted to ask to anyone who played BG2 if they ever found themselves thinking something among the lines of "Man, this game was good, but IF ONLY I COULD REPLAY THE WHOLE THING as Jaheira/Viconia/Minsc/Edwin/whatever, that would be the best thing ever witnessed in RPG".
I know the thought never even crossed my mind, frankly.
Posted By: CJMPinger Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 29/06/21 11:41 AM
Honestly, with the companions getting slaughtered thing, I felt almost obligated to play Red Prince in my playthroughs because I wanted to be able to do as many companion quests as I could and he is the one that makes the most sense as a summoner. But if I could have kept everyone alive and experience their stories, I totally would have played a custom character.

I could see a game being built around it, where it genuinely gets very very very different depending on which character you choose, but I don't think that type of project is for BG3 and would be more for DOS3.
Posted By: virion Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 29/06/21 11:52 AM
Originally Posted by Tuco
As a general question, I'd be tempted to ask to anyone who played BG2 if they ever found themselves thinking something among the lines of "Man, this game was good, but IF ONLY I COULD REPLAY THE WHOLE THING as Jaheira/Viconia/Minsc/Edwin/whatever, that would be the best thing ever witnessed in RPG".
I know the thought never even crossed my mind, frankly.


I really don't think it's about playing as Jaheira , Minsc or anyone else. Of course I never thought " Would be huge to play as one of them!!". Cause the child of Bhaal backstory is good as it is. If anything Larian gives you the option to play the same game with different lores so the idea is actually huge. You can choose yourself what kind of main character you want to play. If in BG2 I could be the Child of Bhaal OR Jaheira, Viconia etc then...why not?

The only problem I see is they design EVERY character quest as if it was the PC character. And because of it we have less characters to choose from. Not every single character needs to be the origin character for crying out loud.

If you take BG2 as an example ( could be any game , really) then the story of the Child of Bhaal would still be the main quest.
It's like playing DOS2 and not playing Fane as your PC. It's...strange.
Posted By: Tuco Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 29/06/21 12:03 PM
Originally Posted by virion
I really don't think it's about playing as Jaheira , Minsc or anyone else. Of course I never thought " Would be huge to play as one of them!!". Cause the child of Bhaal backstory is good as it is. If anything Larian gives you the option to play the same game with different lores so the idea is actually huge.
Well, I don't think it is, and that's exactly the problem.
I think the strain it puts on the production in terms of variable to consider and the constrictions it puts on quest and companions design is out-weighting by far the benefits it offers.

I did play DOS 2 from more than one perspective (even if most of them not to a completion point) and I'd be lying through my teeth if I claimed that the experience felt wildly different each time.
In fact I think I played games that don't offer the option of multiple protagonists where your custom character felt more distinctive than in DOS 2. Arcanum, Fallout and Fallout 2 come to mind.
Incidentally that includes BG3 already, even in its incomplete form.
Playing this build of BG3 as Drow or as a halfling feels way more distinctive than, say, playing as Beast or Ifan in DOS 2.
Posted By: Icelyn Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 29/06/21 12:21 PM
Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by Icelyn
Here's my list: smile

1. Halsin made a companion!
2. Be able to use spells in dialogue
3. Option to select Tav as the character npcs speak to when dialogue starts automatically (for single player)
4. SWTOR-style group dialogue for co-op

Point 2 was basically already confirmed to be in the plans. Or at least so Larian claimed at some point, still unsure if something changed.
Point 4 is also something that they talked about, even if TOR wasn't something they mentioned explicitly. They just said they are working on an UI "to make all party members feel part of the conversation", whatever that translates to in Larian terms.
Yay! smile
Posted By: Try2Handing Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 29/06/21 01:05 PM
Originally Posted by Tuco
As a general question, I'd be tempted to ask to anyone who played BG2 if they ever found themselves thinking something among the lines of "Man, this game was good, but IF ONLY I COULD REPLAY THE WHOLE THING as Jaheira/Viconia/Minsc/Edwin/whatever, that would be the best thing ever witnessed in RPG".
I know the thought never even crossed my mind, frankly.
No, never. Because I can't even start to imagine how the game would even play out. CHARNAME is vastly different from everyone else, everything is about CHARNAME and the whole story and all events revolve around them. They dictate what to do, how to do it, when to do it. Even if you get to replay the game as one of the companions and get to dictate what to do in minor quests and events, the most important events will be about CHARNAME and beyond your influence. I don't know what it would feel like, playing the game when everything is about someone else. Certain parts wouldn't make sense without major rewriting, like at the beginning of the game when Imoen opens your cell door: it wouldn't make sense that she would ignore CHARNAME and open someone else's cell first. Unless, of course, you rewrite that part, maybe have CHARNAME hidden somewhere and so Imoen can only find the companions first.

Replaying the game as different characters only makes sense if you at least get to do different things that yield different results and reactions in the world (even if these characters are not precisely "equal" in terms of role in the story). Something like DAO's origins. I played DOS2 twice and the second time I already played a custom character, and after that I was done. My question is: what is the point of replaying as different origin characters?. In DAO some NPCs will react to you differently based on your origin, but in DOS2 you can just switch to the origin character and have them do the talking, and there, you have your origin quests. All critical NPCs will still be there, greet the characters the same way, give you the same tasks which play out in the same manner.

This "origin characters" idea can still be good if these characters represent the different ways for you to start the game (in other words, like DAO origins, but maybe on a more extensive level), and after that you get "standard" companions that have nothing to do with the whole origin bs.
Posted By: Boblawblah Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 29/06/21 01:21 PM
i'll admit i never played through DOS2 as an origin character, i used my own, was there some massive difference to playing as an origin character? Did a whole side of the game I never saw open up or something? Was it a completely different experience?
Posted By: Tuco Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 29/06/21 01:34 PM
Originally Posted by Boblawblah
i'll admit i never played through DOS2 as an origin character, i used my own, was there some massive difference to playing as an origin character? Did a whole side of the game I never saw open up or something? Was it a completely different experience?
well, not really.
Did you ever play with companions, in general? Did you complete their specific side quests?
Playing as one of them was basically the same thing, except for occasional use of a character-specific tag during some conversation (not always with a meaningful outcome, either; it was more flavor than anything) and experiencing that same side quest was written by a slightly different perspective. And without the character's voice acting.
Posted By: Nyloth Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 29/06/21 01:44 PM
Originally Posted by Boblawblah
i'll admit i never played through DOS2 as an origin character, i used my own, was there some massive difference to playing as an origin character? Did a whole side of the game I never saw open up or something? Was it a completely different experience?

Fane has a unique ending, I liked his passing experience. But only if you use his answer options, otherwise there is no point in it.
Posted By: CJMPinger Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 29/06/21 01:46 PM
Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by Boblawblah
i'll admit i never played through DOS2 as an origin character, i used my own, was there some massive difference to playing as an origin character? Did a whole side of the game I never saw open up or something? Was it a completely different experience?
well, not really.
Did you ever play with companions, in general? Did you complete their specific side quests?
Playing as one of them was basically the same thing, except for occasional use of a character-specific tag during some conversation (not always with a meaningful outcome, either; it was more flavor than anything) and experiencing that same side quest was written by a slightly different perspective. And without the character's voice acting.

Red Prince, Sebille, and Lohse get a tiny bit different when you play them, like you get to experience Red Prince's dream stuff, you can make Sebille not a murderhobo, and you can get more personal with Lohse's possession problems. Other than that... Honestly, nothing felt any different when I controlled a character instead of them being a companion, cause the things I mentioned were minor (other than Sebille really being way too trigger happy to fuck up Red Prince's questline...)
Posted By: Boblawblah Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 29/06/21 02:37 PM
Originally Posted by Tuco
well, not really.
Did you ever play with companions, in general? Did you complete their specific side quests?
Playing as one of them was basically the same thing, except for occasional use of a character-specific tag during some conversation (not always with a meaningful outcome, either; it was more flavor than anything) and experiencing that same side quest was written by a slightly different perspective. And without the character's voice acting.

that's what I figured it was, so i guess I'm confused then. I just don't see the point of playing as one of them then. Is it more for casual players who don't want to actually set up a character? Or is it because they look more unique than a custom PC can? What's the draw? It's not like you're getting a different view of who they are, because you get to choose who they are. Shadowheart can suddenly become super polite, etc. Or maybe THAT's the draw? Making the origin characters dance like puppets? I just don't get it.
Posted By: andreasrylander Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 29/06/21 02:48 PM
Originally Posted by Boblawblah
Originally Posted by Tuco
well, not really.
Did you ever play with companions, in general? Did you complete their specific side quests?
Playing as one of them was basically the same thing, except for occasional use of a character-specific tag during some conversation (not always with a meaningful outcome, either; it was more flavor than anything) and experiencing that same side quest was written by a slightly different perspective. And without the character's voice acting.

that's what I figured it was, so i guess I'm confused then. I just don't see the point of playing as one of them then. Is it more for casual players who don't want to actually set up a character? Or is it because they look more unique than a custom PC can? What's the draw? It's not like you're getting a different view of who they are, because you get to choose who they are. Shadowheart can suddenly become super polite, etc. Or maybe THAT's the draw? Making the origin characters dance like puppets? I just don't get it.

Yeah honestly I much prefer the "origin system" of Dragon Age, where you still make your own character but they have unique BACKGROUNDS that you play out and that kind of "tags" you in different ways. Then you can still play YOUR characters, but they have various background things "imposed on them" like life usually does. =)
Posted By: Try2Handing Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 29/06/21 02:50 PM
Originally Posted by Boblawblah
[...] was there some massive difference to playing as an origin character?
From what I've heard, playing as Fane can open up one or two more significantly different options, but by the time I heard this I was already done with the game.

Originally Posted by Boblawblah
I just don't see the point of playing as one of them then.Is it more for casual players who don't want to actually set up a character? Or is it because they look more unique than a custom PC can? What's the draw? It's not like you're getting a different view of who they are, because you get to choose who they are. Shadowheart can suddenly become super polite, etc. Or maybe THAT's the draw? Making the origin characters dance like puppets? I just don't get it.
Good questions. Up til now I haven't quite understood this myself. To me it is obvious that there's next to no benefit to this. Could it be something to do with multiplayer - because I've never done any multiplayer and missed it? I want to believe Larian meant to do something a lot more creative and original with the whole "origin characters" thing, but for whatever reason failed to do it. Otherwise, if the way DOS2 origin characters plays out was exactly what they intended to do, then that's woefully disappointing. It feels like a massive waste of development resources. And if this is what they're intending to do again with BG3... Helm, give me strength.
Posted By: virion Re: RIP the patch every 2 weeks - 29/06/21 03:09 PM
Originally Posted by Try2Handing
Originally Posted by Boblawblah
[...] was there some massive difference to playing as an origin character?
From what I've heard, playing as Fane can open up one or two more significantly different opti