Larian Studios
Posted By: A Clown Astarion and Sebille - 13/11/20 11:28 PM
I just wanted to add this in (if no one else has done this already, if they have I apologise)
Maybe kinda dumb but with many negative threads I feel like we should have a chill one!

This might be a stretch but I feel like Sebille and Astarion are similar

Just a couple of things I've noticed

One being
[/spoiler]with the whole "master" situation and being abused and controlled if they are in the same area[spoiler]


them both being cynical which is understandable!

They're both rogues and have an obsession with knives.

I dunno I'm just kinda bored and wanted to add this in because why not.
Posted By: Abits Re: Astarion and Sebille - 13/11/20 11:41 PM
each company has its tropes. Bioware had a very long tradition of a whining sidekick (Anoman->Carth->Kaiden->Alistair), and Fire emblem practically made tropes part of the gameplay (for example, in each game you have a Jagen kind character which is usually an old and experienced guy who is very strong gameplay-wise but becomes weaker later when the other characters catch up).
It's not necessarily bad if you know how to play with fans' expectations. Another Japanese example - each Final Fantasy game has a character named "Cid" and in most cases, he is a smart ass supporting character with a thing for machines. Final Fantasy XII used the same trope, but this time made him one of the villains of that game, which is a nice twist
Posted By: A Clown Re: Astarion and Sebille - 13/11/20 11:47 PM
Ooooh yeah definitely!
I'm certainly not saying it's a bad thing at all I should've stated I quite like the similarities! I just adored Sebille and the other DOS2 characters! So it's nice to have that familiarity laugh
Posted By: Lethan Re: Astarion and Sebille - 13/11/20 11:53 PM
But this games' "Sebille" is way less enticing and way less forgivable.

With exception to 1 companion in DOS2; they were all neutrals to a degree, with Lohse edging on good.

With BG3 - if Astarion is this games version of Sebille (Even an Elf to boot, go figure?) there's not even a smidge of good. Plus he's undead. Big no-no's in DnD universe. If he has a redemption option, it's certainly packed in the late game.
Posted By: A Clown Re: Astarion and Sebille - 14/11/20 12:13 AM
You do raise some good points, but I felt Sebille in act 1 was the same, evil, unforgivable etc.
[/spoiler] the lady almost killed my dumb jester, holding a her at knife point, a lot like Astarions encounter again (which was fun) [spoiler]


I feel like there is a smidge if good in lil ol elfy boi, without too many spoilers

[/spoiler]during the party he seemed quite content with playing hero. And again like Sebille I feel will probably have some sort of redemption arc or if not a more in depth look at his character, I have a feeling we will have to deal with his oh so spooky boss vampire boy. [spoiler]


I feel we still dont have a lot of insight to go on in the companions in act 1 anyway since they're all feeling the doom and gloom of mr baby frog.
Posted By: Tarlonniel Re: Astarion and Sebille - 14/11/20 01:20 AM
Originally Posted by Lethan
But this games' "Sebille" is way less enticing and way less forgivable.


I agree with the second part, but not the first. I find Astarion much more attractive and entertaining, plus a bit less trigger happy with that knife of his; on the other hand he seems to be much more firmly in the chaotic evil camp, with a sprinkling of chaotic stupid. I mostly ignored Sebille and Astarion may end up sharing the same fate if there's no way to nudge him toward a better path.
Posted By: SaurianDruid Re: Astarion and Sebille - 14/11/20 01:54 AM
Shadowheart feels a lot more like the Sebille of this game, to be honest. Right down to the fact that if you're playing the wrong race (Gith or Lizard respectively) there is a high chance you'll end up killing her upon your first meeting.

They're both cagey about their pasts and in service to some dark power they don't want to talk about. They both even have
a loss of memories of who they are supposed to be
as a plot point. And they're both elven and snarky.

Astarion has little in common with Sebille aside from general rogue traits.
Posted By: blindhamster Re: Astarion and Sebille - 14/11/20 02:23 AM
Originally Posted by Abits
each company has its tropes. Bioware had a very long tradition of a whining sidekick (Anoman->Carth->Kaiden->Alistair), and Fire emblem practically made tropes part of the gameplay (for example, in each game you have a Jagen kind character which is usually an old and experienced guy who is very strong gameplay-wise but becomes weaker later when the other characters catch up).
It's not necessarily bad if you know how to play with fans' expectations. Another Japanese example - each Final Fantasy game has a character named "Cid" and in most cases, he is a smart ass supporting character with a thing for machines. Final Fantasy XII used the same trope, but this time made him one of the villains of that game, which is a nice twist


How dare you lump Alistair in with the rest of those. Alistair was actually likeable.

Plus. Swooping is.... bad...
Posted By: Xarico Re: Astarion and Sebille - 14/11/20 04:09 AM
No, Astarion is certainly enticing and requires neither forgiveness nor redemption. It's ok if you're not into LE/NE/CE characters, you don't have to like them. Doesn't mean that they shouldn't exist or that they must be "redeemable."
Posted By: N7Greenfire Re: Astarion and Sebille - 14/11/20 04:15 AM
Originally Posted by Xarico
No, Astarion is certainly enticing and requires neither forgiveness nor redemption. It's ok if you're not into LE/NE/CE characters, you don't have to like them. Doesn't mean that they shouldn't exist or that they must be "redeemable."

Yeah Astarion is unapolagetically chaotic and power-hungry which is understandable.
Posted By: A Clown Re: Astarion and Sebille - 14/11/20 06:25 AM
I feel like Astarion kinda has his reasons to be on his slightly chaotic evil path

After all
[/spoiler]he is a 200 year old vampire who probably went through a lot of torture from cazador during that time[spoiler]


I mean if anyone went through that I think becoming that cynical and "evil" is an understandable choice.

It's easy to see his flaws but again it's still act 1 and EA he could end up becoming an entirely different person during the adventure and surprise us, (or stay an asshole which will be funny but also kinda sad)
Posted By: Gamblerr Re: Astarion and Sebille - 14/11/20 06:30 AM
I almost take offense to this comparison, because the similarities end with 'stabby elves with evil former masters'.

I say this as someone who genuinely likes Astarion and has him in my party constantly.

Even at her darkest, Sebille never scratches the surface of how genuinely just....morally bankrupt Astarion is. Every person Sebille kills was in some way involved in what happened to her, being captured, sold, stripped of her dignity- sure maybe the role was minor, but even the most minor role involved searing a mind control scar onto her face to make her a living weapon. When Sebille lashes out at you, she generally recants her behavior- she understands she's traumatized, shattered by the life she has been forced to live. While she's cold, calculating, she is hardly ever cruel, she possesses empathy and compassion that Astarion, from what we've seen of him currently, lacks.

Astarion is willing to kill anyone, for any reason, killing is fun for him- he relishes in rampant slaughter, is manipulative towards you from the moment you meet him, and generally tries to play you like a fiddle for his own ends. I have no doubt Cazador is an evil bastard, and that Astarion's main desire is offing him so he can be free- but unlike Sebille, he doesn't really have a structured plan, nor does he particularly care how many innocents get caught in the crossfire. He is rather apathetic towards slavery(talking to him in the miconid colony yields some interesting dialogue), despite being essentially a slave himself- and his actions range from petty, strange, to downright hypocritical. He seems like more of a homicidal teenager let loose than a former slave on a bloody quest for revenge.

I know we haven't seen much of Astarion and we've had an entire game to get to know Sebille, but if I were to compare Astarion to anyone from DOS2, it would be The Red Prince.

I, initially, didn't care for The Red Prince, he was snobby, self interested, refused to believe any of my good actions were for the actual sake of good, and despite me agreeing to help him take down a shadowy master orchestrating his downfall, took a while to warm up to me and be upfront with his whole story. Sound familiar?

Red's story sees him grow from a pompous, pessimistic blood monger into an introspective, enlightened ruler who cites his friendship with the PC being one of the greatest values in his life. Sure, he's still rather out of touch with...the normal world, but he grows a great deal and stands by your side staunchly while godly power is waved in his face.

Like I said we don't know nearly as much about Astarion and co. as we do about Red and Sebille, but I feel Astarion's plot formula mirrors Red's more closely. Both coming from places of looking down upon others and seeing themselves as 'greater' despite essentially being in the same mud pool as us, as well as a general apathetic view towards the lives and struggles of others.
Posted By: A Clown Re: Astarion and Sebille - 14/11/20 08:40 AM
Again you raise many good points! I actually agree with what you've stated but only partly, saying that Astarion (unless I have missed something and if I have please let me know)
Saying he is willing to kill for any reason and be manipulative is maybe going overboard.

[/spoiler] I'm just referring to the time you first find out hes a vampire and he states that he only drinks animal blood, I dont know if he was lying or something, [spoiler]


But if he was really a heartless killer youd probably see more dead bodies or youd see either yourself or your companions dead along the road.

At the moment I think right now hes just doing what it takes to survive which is what many including your own character is doing.

I agree definitely with the red prince similarities, both are definitely pompous and selfish
Posted By: Gamblerr Re: Astarion and Sebille - 14/11/20 09:01 AM
The animal bit, I'm torn about- on one hand, it could be an actual moral backbone on his part, or it might be the residual fear of Cazador. Cazador never allowed Astarion to drink from humans, only rats, and in some dialogue it's implied that he feared that Cazador's old orders still had sway over him.

As for the 'dead bodies laying about'- Astarion knows the only way he's getting through this is with your help. He's a troublemaker, but he's crafty. He realizes that he wouldn't stand a chance on his own, against entire groups of people who might very well want to stake him just for being a vampire, murder not withstanding. He's pleased as punch, drinking blood from a wine glass and reminiscing at the Goblin Party after slaughtering the druids and tieflings. He seems infinitely happier than at the tiefling party, after slaughtering a gaggle of innocents, as opposed to Shadowheart, who is getting herself as drunk as she can to try to forget about what she just took part in.

Astarion behaves himself as far as he knows will satisfy the group, but he relishes in violence, whether it be inflicted upon enemies or innocents.

I'm not saying this to be hard on him, even though from what I've gathered he was a shit before being made a vampire, 200 years as a slave to a demonic ass like Cazador probably dropped his moral compass down a well.

I'm not even saying you're wrong in your belief that Astarion might be more moral than I believe- Astarion is playing us, to some degree. Like I said he knows we are his surest way to survival, and he's trying to make sure he gets out of this whole situation on top.

The only way we'll know anything for sure is once the full game comes out and that's at least a year away.

Until then I'm just gonna psychoanalyze this posh elf bloodsucker until I go insane.

(Also I almost wanted to compare him to Fane but Fane's character arc was less 'growing from uppity and malicious into thoughtful and understanding' to 'local father tries to make up with his 30 year old daughter after leaving for cigarettes the day she was born and never coming back'.)
Posted By: Vamathi Re: Astarion and Sebille - 14/11/20 09:07 AM
@Gamblerr;;
I wish I could just like a post. Fully agree on your view of Sebille vs. Astarion in Early Access.
Astarion and Red Prince almost feel like they are written by the same writter? But I wasn't able to find who actually wrote either.

To be honest ever since getting Astarion for the first time I didn't fully trust the character's intentions and I don't think I do even now, after multiple playthroughs with him in the party.
I'd expect him to be at least a bit more smart, calculating, unless he is calculating something else entirely...
Maybe he just has perma loose screws from 200 years of slavery. That's okay, some of my planned characters will still get along with him!

I need to know what the heck the purpose of the 'poem' on his back is.
Posted By: A Clown Re: Astarion and Sebille - 14/11/20 09:37 AM
To be honest when you put it like that I absolutely cannot disagree, you raise some really good points there,

it's making me want to play the game again and re-analyse!

I do have a little theory that depending on the path you go on (whether its "evil" or "good") it might have an effect on your companions morality, (if they dont leave you for being a dooshbag or too evil, which to be fair is the most fun play through) but that might play into the companions arc.

But with Astarion have a few loose screws does make sense, that boy needs therapy. (They all do)
Posted By: Divine Star Re: Astarion and Sebille - 14/11/20 12:24 PM
Originally Posted by Gamblerr
I almost take offense to this comparison, because the similarities end with 'stabby elves with evil former masters'.

I say this as someone who genuinely likes Astarion and has him in my party constantly.

Even at her darkest, Sebille never scratches the surface of how genuinely just....morally bankrupt Astarion is. Every person Sebille kills was in some way involved in what happened to her, being captured, sold, stripped of her dignity- sure maybe the role was minor, but even the most minor role involved searing a mind control scar onto her face to make her a living weapon. When Sebille lashes out at you, she generally recants her behavior- she understands she's traumatized, shattered by the life she has been forced to live. While she's cold, calculating, she is hardly ever cruel, she possesses empathy and compassion that Astarion, from what we've seen of him currently, lacks.

Astarion is willing to kill anyone, for any reason, killing is fun for him- he relishes in rampant slaughter, is manipulative towards you from the moment you meet him, and generally tries to play you like a fiddle for his own ends. I have no doubt Cazador is an evil bastard, and that Astarion's main desire is offing him so he can be free- but unlike Sebille, he doesn't really have a structured plan, nor does he particularly care how many innocents get caught in the crossfire. He is rather apathetic towards slavery(talking to him in the miconid colony yields some interesting dialogue), despite being essentially a slave himself- and his actions range from petty, strange, to downright hypocritical. He seems like more of a homicidal teenager let loose than a former slave on a bloody quest for revenge.

I know we haven't seen much of Astarion and we've had an entire game to get to know Sebille, but if I were to compare Astarion to anyone from DOS2, it would be The Red Prince.

I, initially, didn't care for The Red Prince, he was snobby, self interested, refused to believe any of my good actions were for the actual sake of good, and despite me agreeing to help him take down a shadowy master orchestrating his downfall, took a while to warm up to me and be upfront with his whole story. Sound familiar?

Red's story sees him grow from a pompous, pessimistic blood monger into an introspective, enlightened ruler who cites his friendship with the PC being one of the greatest values in his life. Sure, he's still rather out of touch with...the normal world, but he grows a great deal and stands by your side staunchly while godly power is waved in his face.

Like I said we don't know nearly as much about Astarion and co. as we do about Red and Sebille, but I feel Astarion's plot formula mirrors Red's more closely. Both coming from places of looking down upon others and seeing themselves as 'greater' despite essentially being in the same mud pool as us, as well as a general apathetic view towards the lives and struggles of others.


I agree with this post wholeheartedly.
Posted By: Tarlonniel Re: Astarion and Sebille - 14/11/20 02:00 PM
Originally Posted by Gamblerr
The animal bit, I'm torn about- on one hand, it could be an actual moral backbone on his part, or it might be the residual fear of Cazador. Cazador never allowed Astarion to drink from humans, only rats, and in some dialogue it's implied that he feared that Cazador's old orders still had sway over him.


Without going into too many datamined spoilers, it's not moral backbone, it's all about Cazador's control and breaking free. If he promises to feed only on your enemies, or only on animals, he seems to keep that promise, but I doubt he'd be limiting himself on his own beyond, "Don't piss off people with pitchforks!"

I'm on board with the Red Prince comparisons, but if Astarion's romance also ends with us becoming his sidepiece, I may turn him over to the Gur. oops
Posted By: A Clown Re: Astarion and Sebille - 14/11/20 08:30 PM

Originally Posted by Tarlonniel
Originally Posted by Gamblerr
The animal bit, I'm torn about- on one hand, it could be an actual moral backbone on his part, or it might be the residual fear of Cazador. Cazador never allowed Astarion to drink from humans, only rats, and in some dialogue it's implied that he feared that Cazador's old orders still had sway over him.


Without going into too many datamined spoilers, it's not moral backbone, it's all about Cazador's control and breaking free. If he promises to feed only on your enemies, or only on animals, he seems to keep that promise, but I doubt he'd be limiting himself on his own beyond, "Don't piss off people with pitchforks!"

I'm on board with the Red Prince comparisons, but if Astarion's romance also ends with us becoming his sidepiece, I may turn him over to the Gur. oops


The more I think about it the more he seems to lean more into the Red prince but angry elf,

I'm hoping with his romance route he becomes more selfless, or if not just, yeah, send him to the Gur or just put him out of his misery. I would feel less bad about killing him then sending him back to Cazador.
Posted By: JesusDied Re: Astarion and Sebille - 14/11/20 08:45 PM
Originally Posted by A Clown
[/spoiler] I'm just referring to the time you first find out hes a vampire and he states that he only drinks animal blood, I dont know if he was lying or something, [spoiler]


He is not lying about an animal bit, but he is about the reasons behind it. Which you can call him out on if you had DT activated.
He is making it seem as if he is feeding on animals by choice because he is not "a monster" or doesn't want to be one. In truth, he was forced to do it by his master, and him trying to feed on you is him testing out how "free" is he from his master now.

Also, since we are on topic in regards to Astarion. I recall an article that mentioned a very interesting bit about Astarion's life prior to vampirsim.
Apparently he was a disgraced nobleman who became a magistrate as just a cover. In reality he was smuggling prisoners to vampires. After he became "too corrupt" even for vampires, vampires ended up making a scheme with Cazador to take him down. Hence how he ended up enslaved by him.

Now, I'm not sure if this backstory still stands for Astarion, or was it changed by now. However, if we do follow this, then in all honesty he is the last person to talk about the importance of being allowed to chose.
Since he was basically a glorified slaver himself before his downfall.
If this is still meant to be his backstory prior to Cazador, that is.
Posted By: Tarlonniel Re: Astarion and Sebille - 14/11/20 08:49 PM
Originally Posted by A Clown
I would feel less bad about killing him then sending him back to Cazador.


He says that he prefers slavery to death - apparently he even prefers becoming a mind flayer to death - so I'm just doing him a favor, right?
Posted By: Verte Re: Astarion and Sebille - 14/11/20 08:49 PM
Originally Posted by JesusDied
[
Also, since we are on topic in regards to Astarion. I recall an article that mentioned a very interesting bit about Astarion's life prior to vampirsim.
Apparently he was a disgraced nobleman who became a magistrate as just a cover. In reality he was smuggling prisoners to vampires. After he became "too corrupt" even for vampires, vampires ended up making a scheme with Cazador to take him down. Hence how he ended up enslaved by him.

Now, I'm not sure if this backstory still stands for Astarion, or was it changed by now. However, if we do follow this, then in all honesty he is the last person to talk about the importance of being allowed to chose.
Since he was basically a glorified slaver himself before his downfall.
If this is still meant to be his backstory prior to Cazador, that is.


Well deserved fate then.
Posted By: A Clown Re: Astarion and Sebille - 14/11/20 09:11 PM
Originally Posted by JesusDied
Originally Posted by A Clown
[/spoiler] I'm just referring to the time you first find out hes a vampire and he states that he only drinks animal blood, I dont know if he was lying or something, [spoiler]


He is not lying about an animal bit, but he is about the reasons behind it. Which you can call him out on if you had DT activated.
He is making it seem as if he is feeding on animals by choice because he is not "a monster" or doesn't want to be one. In truth, he was forced to do it by his master, and him trying to feed on you is him testing out how "free" is he from his master now.

Also, since we are on topic in regards to Astarion. I recall an article that mentioned a very interesting bit about Astarion's life prior to vampirsim.
Apparently he was a disgraced nobleman who became a magistrate as just a cover. In reality he was smuggling prisoners to vampires. After he became "too corrupt" even for vampires, vampires ended up making a scheme with Cazador to take him down. Hence how he ended up enslaved by him.

Now, I'm not sure if this backstory still stands for Astarion, or was it changed by now. However, if we do follow this, then in all honesty he is the last person to talk about the importance of being allowed to chose.
Since he was basically a glorified slaver himself before his downfall.
If this is still meant to be his backstory prior to Cazador, that is.


Hot damn I'm really considering killing this asshole or sending him back to Cazador,

I'm kinda bummed that he was "evil" from the start, really thought he had potential, but from the way you described that article it seems that he was never a good egg.
Posted By: Tarlonniel Re: Astarion and Sebille - 14/11/20 09:23 PM
Originally Posted by A Clown
Hot damn I'm really considering killing this asshole or sending him back to Cazador,

I'm kinda bummed that he was "evil" from the start, really thought he had potential, but from the way you described that article it seems that he was never a good egg.


Don't worry, you can trust him. He says so. Right before he kills you (maybe).

To be clear, I still enjoy the character and my PCs drag him around everywhere, but unless something changes he's probably getting dumped on full release.
Posted By: JesusDied Re: Astarion and Sebille - 14/11/20 09:29 PM
Originally Posted by A Clown
Hot damn I'm really considering killing this asshole or sending him back to Cazador,

I'm kinda bummed that he was "evil" from the start, really thought he had potential, but from the way you described that article it seems that he was never a good egg.

As I previously said, I'm not sure if Larian is still going for this backstory when it comes to Astarion, but this seems to have been the case for demo version back in Februray. Here is the full quote in regards to that:
" In this case, we were shown Astarion, who seemed like a real asshole. A disgraced nobleman who used his position as a local magistrate to serve a vampire clan by feeding them prisoners, he was eventually too corrupt even for them and was effectively sent to serve as the personal slave of a powerful vampire. Astarion has the affected sophistication of a true decadent, like one of Richard E. Grant's less likable characters."

And you can read the rest of that article here.

So, if this backstory is still valid and unchanged, then in all honesty I can't say that I feel bad for what has happened to Astarion. If anything, what happened to him is very ironic.
Posted By: A Clown Re: Astarion and Sebille - 14/11/20 09:40 PM
Originally Posted by Tarlonniel
Originally Posted by A Clown
Hot damn I'm really considering killing this asshole or sending him back to Cazador,

I'm kinda bummed that he was "evil" from the start, really thought he had potential, but from the way you described that article it seems that he was never a good egg.


Don't worry, you can trust him. He says so. Right before he kills you (maybe).

To be clear, I still enjoy the character and my PCs drag him around everywhere, but unless something changes he's probably getting dumped on full release.

Originally Posted by JesusDied
Originally Posted by A Clown
Hot damn I'm really considering killing this asshole or sending him back to Cazador,

I'm kinda bummed that he was "evil" from the start, really thought he had potential, but from the way you described that article it seems that he was never a good egg.

As I previously said, I'm not sure if Larian is still going for this backstory when it comes to Astarion, but this seems to have been the case for demo version back in Februray. Here is the full quote in regards to that:
" In this case, we were shown Astarion, who seemed like a real asshole. A disgraced nobleman who used his position as a local magistrate to serve a vampire clan by feeding them prisoners, he was eventually too corrupt even for them and was effectively sent to serve as the personal slave of a powerful vampire. Astarion has the affected sophistication of a true decadent, like one of Richard E. Grant's less likable characters."

And you can read the rest of that article here.

So, if this backstory is still valid and unchanged, then in all honesty I can't say that I feel bad for what has happened to Astarion. If anything, what happened to him is very ironic.





Interesting aritcle thank you!!!

I do enjoy dragging him around, and like the snarky comments he makes, I even kind of adored his little romance sequence, I just felt like he had a little soft boy side!

So I'm really hoping that he doesnt have that slaver background, I enjoy a corrupt route (especially for my own characters) but that's just way too evil man!

So yeah like you said, if there is no change I'd enjoy sending him back
Posted By: JesusDied Re: Astarion and Sebille - 14/11/20 10:05 PM
Originally Posted by A Clown
So I'm really hoping that he doesnt have that slaver background, I enjoy a corrupt route (especially for my own characters) but that's just way too evil man!

Well, they did say that this ea is meant for evil playtesting and that companions init fit that alignment (minus Gale who wasn't even meant to be a part of this ea originally).
Also, if we are to assume that backstory in regards to Astarion is still valid, it would honestly explain why Gur ambushed him in the first place. Think about it for a second. Why would Gur care to ambush some magistrate? Their job is killing monsters, not corrupt nobles. Them being tipped (most likely by Cazador who was setting Astarion up) that Astarion is working with vampires, would be something that Gur would care about enough to ambush Astarion as they did.
Also (in my opinion), this type of background for Astarion would help with making the whole Cazador case feel less one-sided. Cazador might not be the greatest man and is clearly an asshole, but Astarion would be no better than him in this case. Which would lead to the question of do you wish to support evil like Cazador just because Astarion is not sunshine himself. Or, will you still help Astarion even though he is no better than his master?
All I know is that I'm not even talking to that man without having DT (Detect Thoughts) activated. Since this seems to be the only way to get an actual truth out of this man. Like when he was trying to make himself look good by claiming that he only kills animals because he is no monster. DT reveals the actual truth behind that reason and you get to call him out on that.

In short: Whatever or no that part about his background still stands, Astarion is still full of sh*t and he is not to be trusted at all.
Posted By: Vamathi Re: Astarion and Sebille - 14/11/20 10:24 PM
Originally Posted by JesusDied
Well, they did say that this ea is meant for evil playtesting and that companions init fit that alignment (minus Gale who wasn't even meant to be a part of this ea originally).
Also, if we are to assume that backstory in regards to Astarion is still valid, it would honestly explain why Gur ambushed him in the first place. Think about it for a second. Why would Gur care to ambush some magistrate? Their job is killing monsters, not corrupt nobles. Them being tipped (most likely by Cazador who was setting Astarion up) that Astarion is working with vampires, would be something that Gur would care about enough to ambush Astarion as they did.
Also (in my opinion), this type of background for Astarion would help with making the whole Cazador case feel less one-sided. Cazador might not be the greatest man and is clearly an asshole, but Astarion would be no better than him in this case. Which would lead to the question of do you wish to support evil like Cazador just because Astarion is not sunshine himself. Or, will you still help Astarion even though he is no better than his master?
All I know is that I'm not even talking to that man without having DT (Detect Thoughts) activated. Since this seems to be the only way to get an actual truth out of this man. Like when he was trying to make himself look good by claiming that he only kills animals because he is no monster. DT reveals the actual truth behind that reason and you get to call him out on that.

In short: Whatever or no that part about his background still stands, Astarion is still full of sh*t and he is not to be trusted at all.

Yeah do you want to get stabbed in the back once he can go have his own coven and all?
Anyways, you might not have seen this, but the Gur will actually say a different name, when you question him with speak with the dead and disguise - youtube vid for reference.
Maiden Fel

So I am not entirely sure if Cazador is still in fact behind this,...

I am aware of this backstory and even with that, it doesn't explain the 'poem' on his back.
Maybe that will make his character even more sinister...
Posted By: A Clown Re: Astarion and Sebille - 14/11/20 10:34 PM
Originally Posted by JesusDied
Originally Posted by A Clown
So I'm really hoping that he doesnt have that slaver background, I enjoy a corrupt route (especially for my own characters) but that's just way too evil man!

Well, they did say that this ea is meant for evil playtesting and that companions init fit that alignment (minus Gale who wasn't even meant to be a part of this ea originally).
Also, if we are to assume that backstory in regards to Astarion is still valid, it would honestly explain why Gur ambushed him in the first place. Think about it for a second. Why would Gur care to ambush some magistrate? Their job is killing monsters, not corrupt nobles. Them being tipped (most likely by Cazador who was setting Astarion up) that Astarion is working with vampires, would be something that Gur would care about enough to ambush Astarion as they did.
Also (in my opinion), this type of background for Astarion would help with making the whole Cazador case feel less one-sided. Cazador might not be the greatest man and is clearly an asshole, but Astarion would be no better than him in this case. Which would lead to the question of do you wish to support evil like Cazador just because Astarion is not sunshine himself. Or, will you still help Astarion even though he is no better than his master?
All I know is that I'm not even talking to that man without having DT (Detect Thoughts) activated. Since this seems to be the only way to get an actual truth out of this man. Like when he was trying to make himself look good by claiming that he only kills animals because he is no monster. DT reveals the actual truth behind that reason and you get to call him out on that.

In short: Whatever or no that part about his background still stands, Astarion is still full of sh*t and he is not to be trusted at all.


Welp guess I'll have to obsess over a new companion, I really hope they dont build up his entire arc and romance only to have him stab you in the back, I understand it's for all the evil playthroughs etc. But itll still be kinda disappointing
Posted By: Vamathi Re: Astarion and Sebille - 14/11/20 10:45 PM
Originally Posted by A Clown
Welp guess I'll have to obsess over a new companion, I really hope they dont build up his entire arc and romance only to have him stab you in the back, I understand it's for all the evil playthroughs etc. But itll still be kinda disappointing

Do be fair I can see Astarion, if he doesn't get corrupted by Absolute and power hunt wanting an out of being a vampire completely. The main reason, that I see is his clear enjoyment from the sun.
I can imagine he should be partly concious, that being a vampire seems like and evil mindset loop.
I could see how a player could convince him to give it up, if it becomes an option (kinda unlikely, but with the involvement of gods in the plot...).
Also, they kinda said, that you have a chance to build relationship with any of the characters.
I believe that there must a be a way that Astarion just stays with you, otherwise why even make him Origin character and playable by players?
Posted By: JesusDied Re: Astarion and Sebille - 14/11/20 10:50 PM
Originally Posted by Vamathi
Anyways, you might not have seen this, but the Gur will actually say a different name, when you question him with speak with the dead and disguise - youtube vid for reference.
Maiden Fel

So I am not entirely sure if Cazador is still in fact behind this,...

Can't say I saw this before (interesting), although I was talking about Gur incident that took place right before he became a vampire. That one was clearly a setup that was most likely done by Cazador since his timing was too convenient.
Quote
it doesn't explain the 'poem' on his back.

I saw some claim that a tiefling mc will comment on it and claim that is of fiendish origin. I don't know in which instances does this trigger though. I had him naked and my tiefling mc didn't say a damn thing about the thing on his back. I assume it happens if you romance him? Can't confirm since I didn't romance him, or anyone in general in either of my playthroughs.
Either way, it is clear that his "poem" has something to do with the devil rather than just mere vampires.

Originally Posted by A Clown
Welp guess I'll have to obsess over a new companion, I really hope they dont build up his entire arc and romance only to have him stab you in the back, I understand it's for all the evil playthroughs etc. But itll still be kinda disappointing

I saw some datamined sound files in which he is talking as...selfless guy? Like, he was telling you that you should help people no matter what. Which was a very un-Astarion thing to say. If this is anything to go by, then it seems that perhaps we will be able to affect our companions' alignments with our actions.
Posted By: A Clown Re: Astarion and Sebille - 14/11/20 11:11 PM
Originally Posted by Vamathi
Originally Posted by A Clown
Welp guess I'll have to obsess over a new companion, I really hope they dont build up his entire arc and romance only to have him stab you in the back, I understand it's for all the evil playthroughs etc. But itll still be kinda disappointing

Do be fair I can see Astarion, if he doesn't get corrupted by Absolute and power hunt wanting an out of being a vampire completely. The main reason, that I see is his clear enjoyment from the sun.
I can imagine he should be partly concious, that being a vampire seems like and evil mindset loop.
I could see how a player could convince him to give it up, if it becomes an option (kinda unlikely, but with the involvement of gods in the plot...).
Also, they kinda said, that you have a chance to build relationship with any of the characters.
I believe that there must a be a way that Astarion just stays with you, otherwise why even make him Origin character and playable by players?



My thoughts exactly, I'm really hoping he ends up being a little asshole instead of a massive asshole!

Originally Posted by JesusDied
Originally Posted by Vamathi
Anyways, you might not have seen this, but the Gur will actually say a different name, when you question him with speak with the dead and disguise - youtube vid for reference.
Maiden Fel

So I am not entirely sure if Cazador is still in fact behind this,...

Can't say I saw this before (interesting), although I was talking about Gur incident that took place right before he became a vampire. That one was clearly a setup that was most likely done by Cazador since his timing was too convenient.
Quote
it doesn't explain the 'poem' on his back.

I saw some claim that a tiefling mc will comment on it and claim that is of fiendish origin. I don't know in which instances does this trigger though. I had him naked and my tiefling mc didn't say a damn thing about the thing on his back. I assume it happens if you romance him? Can't confirm since I didn't romance him, or anyone in general in either of my playthroughs.
Either way, it is clear that his "poem" has something to do with the devil rather than just mere vampires.

Originally Posted by A Clown
Welp guess I'll have to obsess over a new companion, I really hope they dont build up his entire arc and romance only to have him stab you in the back, I understand it's for all the evil playthroughs etc. But itll still be kinda disappointing

I saw some datamined sound files in which he is talking as...selfless guy? Like, he was telling you that you should help people no matter what. Which was a very un-Astarion thing to say. If this is anything to go by, then it seems that perhaps we will be able to affect our companions' alignments with our actions.


That is very unlike astarion he hates it when you help people! I wonder what that means!

I guess we will just have to wait for the game to be released to get all the answers!

But it's so hard to be patient its such a fun game already!
Posted By: Verte Re: Astarion and Sebille - 14/11/20 11:25 PM
I guess he says selfless lines when we choose him as origin.
Posted By: Tarlonniel Re: Astarion and Sebille - 14/11/20 11:26 PM
Originally Posted by Vamathi
Anyways, you might not have seen this, but the Gur will actually say a different name, when you question him with speak with the dead and disguise - youtube vid for reference.
Maiden Fel

So I am not entirely sure if Cazador is still in fact behind this,...


Astarion tells you that Cazador probably hired the guy through an intermediary. I'm more confused about how the monster hunter didn't recognize his target when he was talking to him. Then again, monster hunters - and people in general - seem very bad at spotting vampires in this game.

Originally Posted by JesusDied
I assume it happens if you romance him?


Yup, only if you choose him at the party.

Originally Posted by JesusDied
I saw some datamined sound files in which he is talking as...selfless guy? Like, he was telling you that you should help people no matter what.


Those might be lines for when you play him as an origin character. You can probably shape his personality to be more altruistic.
Posted By: Innateagle Re: Astarion and Sebille - 15/11/20 12:01 AM
Originally Posted by JesusDied
Originally Posted by A Clown
[/spoiler] I'm just referring to the time you first find out hes a vampire and he states that he only drinks animal blood, I dont know if he was lying or something, [spoiler]


He is not lying about an animal bit, but he is about the reasons behind it. Which you can call him out on if you had DT activated.
He is making it seem as if he is feeding on animals by choice because he is not "a monster" or doesn't want to be one. In truth, he was forced to do it by his master, and him trying to feed on you is him testing out how "free" is he from his master now.

Also, since we are on topic in regards to Astarion. I recall an article that mentioned a very interesting bit about Astarion's life prior to vampirsim.
Apparently he was a disgraced nobleman who became a magistrate as just a cover. In reality he was smuggling prisoners to vampires. After he became "too corrupt" even for vampires, vampires ended up making a scheme with Cazador to take him down. Hence how he ended up enslaved by him.

Now, I'm not sure if this backstory still stands for Astarion, or was it changed by now. However, if we do follow this, then in all honesty he is the last person to talk about the importance of being allowed to chose.
Since he was basically a glorified slaver himself before his downfall.
If this is still meant to be his backstory prior to Cazador, that is.


Man. As if the hunter situation wasn't already the reverse of selling out Fenris in DA2. Imma always recruit him just to make sure gur gets him
Posted By: Vamathi Re: Astarion and Sebille - 15/11/20 12:01 AM
Originally Posted by JesusDied
I saw some claim that a tiefling mc will comment on it and claim that is of fiendish origin. I don't know in which instances does this trigger though. I had him naked and my tiefling mc didn't say a damn thing about the thing on his back. I assume it happens if you romance him? Can't confirm since I didn't romance him, or anyone in general in either of my playthroughs.
Either way, it is clear that his "poem" has something to do with the devil rather than just mere vampires.

Cazador's poem has been transcribed.
The problem is that there isn't really dictionary for infernal, so hard to know if we learn anything more about it in early access... My bet is no.

Originally Posted by Tarlonniel
Astarion tells you that Cazador probably hired the guy through an intermediary. I'm more confused about how the monster hunter didn't recognize his target when he was talking to him. Then again, monster hunters - and people in general - seem very bad at spotting vampires in this game.

Sure. Astarion might be right. But I hardly believe everything he says.
The entire hunter encounter doesn't make sense, as you mentioned, the hunter doesn't recognize him, but Cazador is clearly smart enough to call in a favor from
Maiden Fel? And the reason? Even monsters have nightmares? Is this Maiden Fel just leader of his 'gur' people?
To me this sounds possibly like another plot.
Posted By: Tarlonniel Re: Astarion and Sebille - 15/11/20 06:33 PM
Originally Posted by Vamathi
Do be fair I can see Astarion, if he doesn't get corrupted by Absolute and power hunt wanting an out of being a vampire completely. The main reason, that I see is his clear enjoyment from the sun.


His enjoyment of the sunshine and stars are the only bits of hope I see. On the other hand, they may just be marking him as an inveterate hedonist.
Posted By: Moirnelithe Re: Astarion and Sebille - 15/11/20 07:34 PM
The hunter might not recognize him because he meets Astarion during the day. Vampire spawn are not supposed to be able to walk in daylight so that makes sense. The hunter is not aware that Astarion has a tadpole making him non-allergic to sunlight.

ps. I prefer no redemption arc for Astarion. Some characters should just remain irredeemable.
Posted By: A Clown Re: Astarion and Sebille - 15/11/20 07:43 PM
Originally Posted by Moirnelithe
The hunter might not recognize him because he meets Astarion during the day. Vampire spawn are not supposed to be able to walk in daylight so that makes sense. The hunter is not aware that Astarion has a tadpole making him non-allergic to sunlight.

ps. I prefer no redemption arc for Astarion. Some characters should just remain irredeemable.


Though I wholeheartedly agree with some characters should not have a redemption arc,

especially for players who want to keep an evil play through

I feel like it would be nice to have an option on whether to help redeem a character or keep them "corrupted"
Posted By: Tarlonniel Re: Astarion and Sebille - 15/11/20 07:59 PM
Originally Posted by Moirnelithe
The hunter might not recognize him because he meets Astarion during the day.


Any monster hunter who lets their guard down so completely that they don't recognize their vampire mark - red eyes, pointed teeth, pale skin and all - simply because it's daytime is a monster hunter who probably won't live long. And this one doesn't.

I wouldn't be as invested in a redemption arc if our selection of male love interests wasn't limited to Gale, Astarion and - apparently -

Minsc.


Which, if Astarion is purely and forever evil, just leaves my all characters playing tug-of-war with Mystra over Gale. I'd like at least one other option.
Posted By: A Clown Re: Astarion and Sebille - 15/11/20 08:23 PM
Originally Posted by Tarlonniel

Which, if Astarion is purely and forever evil, just leaves my all characters playing tug-of-war with Mystra over Gale. I'd like at least one other option.


There is also wyll, who is probably the most chill (aside from his situation) I think he would probably make a really nice friend or romance option
Posted By: Tarlonniel Re: Astarion and Sebille - 15/11/20 08:34 PM
Oops, forgot about Wyll. He's not been appealing so far, but maybe he'll grow on me - hopefully they'll unbug his romance scenes soon.
Posted By: A Clown Re: Astarion and Sebille - 15/11/20 08:44 PM
Originally Posted by Tarlonniel
Oops, forgot about Wyll. He's not been appealing so far, but maybe he'll grow on me - hopefully they'll unbug his romance scenes soon.


Yesss! I do really enjoy his character I feel like hes just that one nice companion that is liked by all!
Hes just super adorable (if I'm not doing a chaotic evil play through)
Hopefully they'll fix his buggy love soon
Posted By: ash elemental Re: Astarion and Sebille - 15/11/20 09:56 PM
Originally Posted by JesusDied

As I previously said, I'm not sure if Larian is still going for this backstory when it comes to Astarion, but this seems to have been the case for demo version back in Februray. Here is the full quote in regards to that:
" In this case, we were shown Astarion, who seemed like a real asshole. A disgraced nobleman who used his position as a local magistrate to serve a vampire clan by feeding them prisoners, he was eventually too corrupt even for them and was effectively sent to serve as the personal slave of a powerful vampire. Astarion has the affected sophistication of a true decadent, like one of Richard E. Grant's less likable characters."


I was expecting an evil background, so no surprise here, but I have to wonder however did he manage to

become too evil even for vampires?
Posted By: Verte Re: Astarion and Sebille - 15/11/20 10:07 PM
Originally Posted by ash elemental

I was expecting an evil background, so no surprise here, but I have to wonder however did he manage to

become too evil even for vampires?


Maybe he gave them someone he has 'loved'. If Astarion can outdo Cazador as greatest vampire then he has to be extremely evil. Rotten to the bones.
Posted By: Tarlonniel Re: Astarion and Sebille - 15/11/20 10:48 PM
Originally Posted by ash elemental
I was expecting an evil background, so no surprise here, but I have to wonder however did he manage to
become too evil even for vampires?


My assumption is that they started to worry he would blackmail or betray them.
Posted By: Choosen of KEK Re: Astarion and Sebille - 19/11/20 10:25 PM
Originally Posted by A Clown
Though I wholeheartedly agree with some characters should not have a redemption arc,

Nonsense, better give us a corruption arc for Minsc! I want one play through with nice and fluffy Astarion who abandons his vile past and then another one with a bunch of assholes trashing Faerun along with all other planes they get get their hands on.
Posted By: A Clown Re: Astarion and Sebille - 19/11/20 10:52 PM
Originally Posted by Choosen of KEK
Originally Posted by A Clown
Though I wholeheartedly agree with some characters should not have a redemption arc,

Nonsense, better give us a corruption arc for Minsc! I want one play through with nice and fluffy Astarion who abandons his vile past and then another one with a bunch of assholes trashing Faerun along with all other planes they get get their hands on.


Is it too much to ask to turn someone into an asshole? Jeez all I want to do is make Wyll into a murder hobo! And Gale into an untamed demon with many evil deeds!

I have violent urgers, towards Astarion.
Posted By: Phea Re: Astarion and Sebille - 22/11/20 10:13 PM
Originally Posted by JesusDied
Why would Gur care to ambush some magistrate? Their job is killing monsters, not corrupt nobles.

At some point during the game Astarion says
he made a verdict which Gurs didn't like and that's why they almost killed him
. I suspect he didn't lie but he didn't tell the whole true either. My theory is he was sentencing them and selling to Szarrs. One of MC's lines got my attention too; we can say that it's kind of suspicious that Cazador appeared exactly in this particular moment to "save" Astarion. This makes me think Cazador could somehow use Gurs to get him - but it also implies that he couldn't do this other way which is weird for a vampire lord. But I guess Astarion knew who was he dealing with (he HAD to know considering
he was selling prisoners to Cazador
) and secured himself against vampires, so the vampire had to use mortals.
Posted By: Nyloth Re: Astarion and Sebille - 23/11/20 12:47 PM
I would never compare Astarion to a Prince. Their common feature is only the love of power (and not same way). Otherwise, they are very different. And I understand why the OP sees common ground between Astarion and Sebille.

1. Master
2. Scar
3. Desire for revenge
4. Strong distrust

But Sebille is not a manipulator. Astarion manipulates, after the first attack, he immediately becomes a cutie. He says "trust me", and can kill you in the same night. He's also a chaotic evil, and I really hope that doesn't change. I can expect that even if MC supports him, Astarion will still betray us. But it looks more pleasant than "the way of redemption".

In DoS2 end Sebille became softer, and I rly don’t like it. I liked who she was, but not who she became. I hope that Astarion will follow path of evil, even if it ends badly, so be it.

I also didn't read spoilers, I don't want to spoil my fun.
Posted By: A Clown Re: Astarion and Sebille - 23/11/20 01:48 PM
Originally Posted by Nyloth
I would never compare Astarion to a Prince. Their common feature is only the love of power (and not same way). Otherwise, they are very different. And I understand why the OP sees common ground between Astarion and Sebille.

1. Master
2. Scar
3. Desire for revenge
4. Strong distrust

But Sebille is not a manipulator. Astarion manipulates, after the first attack, he immediately becomes a cutie. He says "trust me", and can kill you in the same night. He's also a chaotic evil, and I really hope that doesn't change. I can expect that even if MC supports him, Astarion will still betray us. But it looks more pleasant than "the way of redemption".

In DoS2 end Sebille became softer, and I rly don’t like it. I liked who she was, but not who she became. I hope that Astarion will follow path of evil, even if it ends badly, so be it.

I also didn't read spoilers, I don't want to spoil my fun.



I love the idea of an irredeemable character arc, but I did really enjoy Sebille and her story line, I just loved the development of character and the different ways acts towards the MC! It's what I felt make her romance more intriguing!

Now for Astarion I wouldn't mind having the option to either redeem him or not, I feel like it would be a complete slap in the face if things end badly for him as there are some parts to him that make him seem like he wants to be more chaotic neutral than chaotic evil.

Again I agree with what a lot of people are saying in regards to keeping him a villainous sadistic being,
But I want to be able to do that through choices, not through a set storyline, I feel like the MC should have an impact on the outcome of the companions somehow.
So I would love it if the way you make choices or the way you talk to Astarion could either make him become less "evil" or more.
Posted By: ash elemental Re: Astarion and Sebille - 23/11/20 02:30 PM
A redemption path for Astarion is likely, considering the players will be able to take any of the origin npcs on either a good or evil playthrough. And I don't think the devs would restrict in-game choices based on origin to the point where the player is forced to play good or evil. So the writers will need to make room for either possibilty. Now whether you can still redeem him if he is not the main character is another question.
Posted By: Luxoria Re: Astarion and Sebille - 23/11/20 05:49 PM
I think making Astarion's ark irredeemabale is a kind of slap for those who love him but don't want to play as complete evil character. I mean, it is good to have a choice for both sides.
Posted By: Abits Re: Astarion and Sebille - 23/11/20 05:59 PM
Originally Posted by ash elemental
A redemption path for Astarion is likely, considering the players will be able to take any of the origin npcs on either a good or evil playthrough. And I don't think the devs would restrict in-game choices based on origin to the point where the player is forced to play good or evil. So the writers will need to make room for either possibilty. Now whether you can still redeem him if he is not the main character is another question.

I dunno I'm not really sure. I thought the game is drawing him to some sort of redemption arc up until a specific moment in his post goblin killing conversation. And even this conversation seems to build up towards it, he starts by saying "I never thought of myself as a hero" and his tone seems to suggest he might surprisingly enjoy it, and then he is like "I hate it". I thought it was a very good subversion of expectations moment, And even if it doesn't necessarily mean there is no redemption in his future, it was a very nice moment.

The other question is (damn you FR) of course "can Astarion even be redeemed?" FR lore as I understand it dictates that Astarion is a vampire = undead= inherently and unredeemable evil. The only way I see to redeem him is perhaps curing him of his condition (provided it is even possible. I know you could cure your loved one in BG2 of vampirism, but I'm not sure Astarion is the same). The problem with this solution is that is not really a redemption by any means. Astarion was evil because of his vampirism and now he is not because of magic. no redemption whatsoever...
Posted By: Zellin Re: Astarion and Sebille - 23/11/20 06:12 PM
Originally Posted by Luxoria
I think making Astarion's ark irredeemabale is a kind of slap for those who loves him but don't want to play as complete evil character. I mean, it is good to have a choice for both sides.

You don't always need to redeem someone to coexist peacefully. Even if your alignments are different. You still may find common ground in certain situations. And Larian promised more detailed personalities than just alignments.
Posted By: KillerRabbit Re: Astarion and Sebille - 23/11/20 06:17 PM
Agreed that the party scene was a great subversion of expectations. I'm still hoping that there is redemption path but it is getting harder and harder see. His reaction to return of Connor was the turning point for me -- this was just mopey, "that which defined my life is gone now I don't know what make me happy" Astarian. This was someone who delighted in cruelty. And it seems he wasn't a good person before becoming a vampire. Redemption, if possible, will hard path to follow.

FR actually isn't the problem here -- in fact there is an exploit in the game that could eliminate his vampirism. Kill him, use Gale's scroll of true resurrection, and if Astarian wants to come back the taint from his soul is cleansed. In the original Raveloft module this was one of the possible endings. You could use true resurrection to liberate Strahd's soul.
Posted By: Nyloth Re: Astarion and Sebille - 23/11/20 06:24 PM
I'm pretty sure Astarion was never a good person. I do not know how much he lies about his real work before vampirism, but someone wanted to kill him for it. Is not it so? If he really judged people, it must be very funny.
I'm not sure that the reason for his "evil" is vampirism.
Posted By: Luxoria Re: Astarion and Sebille - 23/11/20 06:26 PM
Yeah, I meant, not completely turn him into fluffy kitten, but at least him staying with MC, not some "I am now true vampire so go off" vibes...or stabbing in the back and more. Personally I believe that his character is much more than just a manipulative monster as many people may see him.
Posted By: Abits Re: Astarion and Sebille - 23/11/20 06:35 PM
Originally Posted by KillerRabbit

FR actually isn't the problem here -- in fact there is an exploit in the game that could eliminate his vampirism. Kill him, use Gale's scroll of true resurrection, and if Astarian wants to come back the taint from his soul is cleansed. In the original Raveloft module this was one of the possible endings. You could use true resurrection to liberate Strahd's soul.

But this is exactly what I meant when I said it is a problem... it's no redemption if all you have to do to attain it is some technical magic. The problem is that as long as Astarion is a vampire he can't have redemption, he can only have some sort of redemption forced on him. any redemption of that kind is not really a character arc but more of a side quest.
Posted By: Phea Re: Astarion and Sebille - 23/11/20 06:38 PM
Vampires in D&D can be at least neutral - another Faerun vampire elf, Jander Sunstar, is a good example. Astarion obviously was an evil person as a mortal and 200 years of torture unsurprisingly didn't change him. Someone in this thread mentioned this already but
during the first gameplay presentation Swen Vincke said that Astarion was selling criminals to Cazador's family as slaves and source of blood. No way he was good or neutral doing this.


Considering how many non-linear small things this game offers, I bet that both redemption and staying evil will be possible for him. His background story is so specific it must be.

EDIT:
Originally Posted by Luxoria
Personally I believe that his character is much more than just a manipulative monster as many people may see him.

I think you may be right to some extent. Someone on Reddit noticed that
if you play as Astarion during the magic mirror talk - the one in necromancy book place - you can choose dialogue option about his old home. He wants to see it and he doesn't mean Cazadors crypt. I think it's a sign he may miss his family or someone like that.
Posted By: Abits Re: Astarion and Sebille - 23/11/20 06:49 PM
Originally Posted by Phea
Vampires in D&D can be at least neutral - another Faerun vampire elf, Jander Sunstar, is a good example. Astarion obviously was an evil person as a mortal and 200 years of torture unsurprisingly didn't change him. Someone in this thread mentioned this already but
during the first gameplay presentation Swen Vincke said that Astarion was selling criminals to Cazador's family as slaves and source of blood. No way he was good or neutral doing this.


Considering how many non-linear small things this game offers, I bet that both redemption and staying evil will be possible for him. His background story is so specific it must be.

Now I'm really confused lol. I wonder whether it is just an inconsistency or the rules of what a vampire is are more complicated than I thought
Posted By: A Clown Re: Astarion and Sebille - 23/11/20 06:51 PM
Again the game is still early access and the storyline could go way beyond our estimations, for all we know Wyll could become a hags apprentice! Gale could suddenly decide he wants to go butt crazy and murder the party, Shadowhurt could stop being a kill joy and Lazel... shes perfect nothing needs changing.

Astarion could start hoarding squirrels.
Posted By: Zellin Re: Astarion and Sebille - 23/11/20 06:59 PM
Originally Posted by A Clown
Astarion could start hoarding squirrels.

Or even worse! He could start breeding and herding them.
Posted By: KillerRabbit Re: Astarion and Sebille - 23/11/20 07:08 PM
Originally Posted by Abits
Originally Posted by KillerRabbit

FR actually isn't the problem here -- in fact there is an exploit in the game that could eliminate his vampirism. Kill him, use Gale's scroll of true resurrection, and if Astarian wants to come back the taint from his soul is cleansed. In the original Raveloft module this was one of the possible endings. You could use true resurrection to liberate Strahd's soul.

But this is exactly what I meant when I said it is a problem... it's no redemption if all you have to do to attain it is some technical magic. The problem is that as long as Astarion is a vampire he can't have redemption, he can only have some sort of redemption forced on him. any redemption of that kind is not really a character arc but more of a side quest.


Actually there there is a moment in true resurrection where you are given the option to remain dead. The hag's threat -- I'll kill you and then raise you and kill you again -- isn't a real one because you can say "no, dead is working out for me, thanks for asking". So mechanically this would be like the remove curse moment with lycanthropy etc -- werewolves can reject their cure. So when the moment comes -- stay a dead vampire or fallow the light and again as weakened moral -- would be the symbolic moment when you decide to live new life or let the character move on.

Or Astarian could return as an evil mortal eager to get bitten again . . .

And @Phea is right -- Jander Sunstar is an exception -- but you are also right its a contradiction in the rules. In 2nd ed elves couldn't become vampires at all. Sunstar got the DMs at TSR to agre violate two rules so he could tell his story smile 2nd edition was full of contradictions.
Posted By: Abits Re: Astarion and Sebille - 23/11/20 07:16 PM
If your choices are either you to die (in which case I have no idea what happens for you, especially if you are a vampire) or you live... Not much of a hard choice unless I'm missing something.
Posted By: Phea Re: Astarion and Sebille - 23/11/20 07:19 PM
I think it really depends on a character. It's super hard to stay good if some evil guy makes you his vampire slave - which happens to almost every D&D vampire, maybe except for Strahd (who btw was rather evil as mortal too, at least shortly before he became a vampire lord) - but it's not impossible. I think rules reflect character's nature, not force such person to become someone else after the transformation.
Posted By: Abits Re: Astarion and Sebille - 23/11/20 07:24 PM
Either there are rules or there are no rules... I guess FR lore is so vast and extensive and so many people wrote stories in this world over so many timelines, that there has to be inconsistencies.i guess I assumed being a vampire in FR is similar to being a vampire in Buffy - you lose your capacity for good and become a (sophisticated) child with 100% id ruling you.
Posted By: KillerRabbit Re: Astarion and Sebille - 23/11/20 07:31 PM
I don't know happens in 5th either. In 2nd you would be destroyed -- you don't actually have a soul, just the tainted shadow of one and the taint would return to the negative material plane (or become a vampric mist under certain conditions). In 3rd you would be claimed by Orcus or Vesharoon but I dunno if anyone has decided with 5th.

5th has lots of "legends differ" descriptions so my guess would be that its another "up to the DM" decision.
Posted By: Sozz Re: Astarion and Sebille - 23/11/20 07:35 PM
Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
I don't know happens in 5th either. In 2nd you would be destroyed -- you don't actually have a soul, just the tainted shadow of one and the taint would return to the negative material plane (or become a vampric mist under certain conditions). In 3rd you would be claimed by Orcus or Vesharoon but I dunno if anyone has decided with 5th.

5th has lots of "legends differ" descriptions so my guess would be that its another "up to the DM" decision.
I think it was the same in 3e, being undead was the same as having your corpse desecrated, so you had to do more than just resurrect them. I get the impression that the FR cosmology wasn't interested in asking or answering these questions.
Posted By: A Clown Re: Astarion and Sebille - 23/11/20 08:56 PM
Originally Posted by Zellin
Originally Posted by A Clown
Astarion could start hoarding squirrels.

Or even worse! He could start breeding and herding them.


Larian if Astarion doesnt have an army of squirrels and wages war with Cazador

WHAT. IS. THE. POINT!!!
Posted By: Ellenhard Re: Astarion and Sebille - 23/11/20 09:02 PM
Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
I don't know happens in 5th either. In 2nd you would be destroyed -- you don't actually have a soul, just the tainted shadow of one and the taint would return to the negative material plane (or become a vampric mist under certain conditions). In 3rd you would be claimed by Orcus or Vesharoon but I dunno if anyone has decided with 5th.

5th has lots of "legends differ" descriptions so my guess would be that its another "up to the DM" decision.


There is Jander Sunstar in 5e "Descent into Avernus", he is a good character still, and vampire, if memory serves right. So at least they've kept this exception without retconning AD&D novel canon.
Posted By: Tarlonniel Re: Astarion and Sebille - 24/11/20 01:31 AM
Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
In 2nd ed elves couldn't become vampires at all.


What? Then how could Bodhi turn Aerie? Obviously the rule violations go back quite a way.
Posted By: Sozz Re: Astarion and Sebille - 24/11/20 01:36 AM
Originally Posted by Tarlonniel
Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
In 2nd ed elves couldn't become vampires at all.


What? Then how could Bodhi turn Aerie? Obviously the rule violations go back quite a way.

not to mention Bodhi herself
Posted By: Tarlonniel Re: Astarion and Sebille - 24/11/20 01:50 AM
Originally Posted by Sozz
not to mention Bodhi herself


Technically she wasn't an elf anymore, though. Somehow.
Posted By: Sozz Re: Astarion and Sebille - 24/11/20 02:26 AM
Originally Posted by Tarlonniel
Originally Posted by Sozz
not to mention Bodhi herself


Technically she wasn't an elf anymore, though. Somehow.
I guess she chose to love a mortal instead of get on the last ship...oh wrong one.
Posted By: A Clown Re: Astarion and Sebille - 25/11/20 11:08 PM
One thing I have realised and it might be wrong but you never know,
Is that some companions might change their alignment depending on the path your PC takes, (obviously theres some approval and disapproval involved)

But speaking specifically about Astarion and they way he reacts to your choices in both versions of the party has me wondering about how much the PC will effect the origin characters!

For instance
if you side with the druids, Astarion states that he could get used to the idea of being a "hero" (if my memory serves me correctly!
And then if you side with the goblins he relishes in the idea of murdering some more


It just has me thinking, if that is the case then it would be interesting to see how much you can either corrupt or "redeem" the companions!
Posted By: Nyloth Re: Astarion and Sebille - 25/11/20 11:43 PM
Originally Posted by A Clown
One thing I have realised and it might be wrong but you never know,
Is that some companions might change their alignment depending on the path your PC takes, (obviously theres some approval and disapproval involved)

But speaking specifically about Astarion and they way he reacts to your choices in both versions of the party has me wondering about how much the PC will effect the origin characters!

For instance
if you side with the druids, Astarion states that he could get used to the idea of being a "hero" (if my memory serves me correctly!
And then if you side with the goblins he relishes in the idea of murdering some more


It just has me thinking, if that is the case then it would be interesting to see how much you can either corrupt or "redeem" the companions!


No, you're wrong. He says he never thought about it, and now that it's happened, it makes him sick. He hates it. It's hard to say anything about origin because we don't have (official) access to the characters.
Posted By: A Clown Re: Astarion and Sebille - 26/11/20 09:13 AM
Originally Posted by Nyloth
Originally Posted by A Clown
One thing I have realised and it might be wrong but you never know,
Is that some companions might change their alignment depending on the path your PC takes, (obviously theres some approval and disapproval involved)

But speaking specifically about Astarion and they way he reacts to your choices in both versions of the party has me wondering about how much the PC will effect the origin characters!

For instance
if you side with the druids, Astarion states that he could get used to the idea of being a "hero" (if my memory serves me correctly!
And then if you side with the goblins he relishes in the idea of murdering some more


It just has me thinking, if that is the case then it would be interesting to see how much you can either corrupt or "redeem" the companions!


No, you're wrong. He says he never thought about it, and now that it's happened, it makes him sick. He hates it. It's hard to say anything about origin because we don't have (official) access to the characters.


Obviously hes not going to jump in and be "hey I know I used to be a serial killer before but now that I did this one good thing I'm going to stop my evil ways and become a hero"

It's going to take time, (I rewatched his dialogue at the party and yes I was wrong) but it kinda felt like he might warm up to "saving lives" as long as he gets a better reward in the end I guess, but you never know I could be reading it wrong.
Posted By: Dexai Re: Astarion and Sebille - 26/11/20 11:08 AM
Originally Posted by Abits
Either there are rules or there are no rules... I guess FR lore is so vast and extensive and so many people wrote stories in this world over so many timelines, that there has to be inconsistencies.i guess I assumed being a vampire in FR is similar to being a vampire in Buffy - you lose your capacity for good and become a (sophisticated) child with 100% id ruling you.


There are rukes but rules existing creates dramatic opportunity to break them. So vampirism is inherently corrupting but because of that there will always be hero characters who stay pure/fight their evil selves by sheer force of will or self-sacrifice. Because those are more interesting to read and write about and writers are suckers for drama.
Posted By: Eldath Re: Astarion and Sebille - 26/11/20 11:27 AM
Originally Posted by N7Greenfire
[quote=Xarico]
Yeah Astarion is unapolagetically chaotic and power-hungry which is understandable.

It's funny because the only thing I get from Astarion is that he wants to be free. He doesn't want power for the sake of it, he wants power to stay free from Cazador. Astarion didn't want to be a vampire, he just wanted to live, but that didn't work out because he was enslaved.
I honestly don't think Astarion is chaotic. He spent 200 years essentially being grounded without having any fun, being used as an object and his personhood completely ignored. The reason why he comes accross as chaotic is because he positively revels in the freedom that the tadpole provides. That's why he wants to keep the tadpole, he thinks it's the guarantor of his freedom.
Now I'm willing to agree that he falls a little bit on the evil side of things, but all things considered, Astarion's story is ripe for a redemption arc. I mean the man just escaped a living hell by going through another hell (literally). I think he really just wants out of all this chaos and oppression and tries to stay on top of all this mess.
Posted By: Eldath Re: Astarion and Sebille - 26/11/20 11:50 AM
Originally Posted by Nyloth

No, you're wrong. He says he never thought about it, and now that it's happened, it makes him sick. He hates it. It's hard to say anything about origin because we don't have (official) access to the characters.


Am I the only one who thinks Astarion is saying the opposite of what he actually thinks most of the time? The guy oozes sarcasm and irony.
Posted By: Nyloth Re: Astarion and Sebille - 26/11/20 12:03 PM
Originally Posted by Eldath
Originally Posted by Nyloth

No, you're wrong. He says he never thought about it, and now that it's happened, it makes him sick. He hates it. It's hard to say anything about origin because we don't have (official) access to the characters.


Am I the only one who thinks Astarion is saying the opposite of what he actually thinks most of the time? The guy oozes sarcasm and irony.



Not in this dialog, lol. Most of the time, he is more hypocritical or manipulative, but he is also very picky. If you do something that he doesn't like, you will notice it. He will call you stupid, and it will not be sarcasm. He will really think so.
Posted By: Eldath Re: Astarion and Sebille - 26/11/20 01:06 PM
To me it just seems like he is bitching about the wine and tears everyone down around him like the petty little tyrant as he is. He is trying to be endearing by cutely playing up how he is a bad boy.
Don't get me wrong, Astarion is a bad guy, but I think he is far from irredeemable.
Posted By: Vamathi Re: Astarion and Sebille - 26/11/20 01:06 PM
Originally Posted by Eldath
Am I the only one who thinks Astarion is saying the opposite of what he actually thinks most of the time? The guy oozes sarcasm and irony.

No you aren't.
He is acting like most of the people over on forums, if you don't know how to push his buttons.
Posted By: Nyloth Re: Astarion and Sebille - 26/11/20 01:35 PM
Originally Posted by Eldath
To me it just seems like he is bitching about the wine and tears everyone down around him like the petty little tyrant as he is. He is trying to be endearing by cutely playing up how he is a bad boy.
Don't get me wrong, Astarion is a bad guy, but I think he is far from irredeemable.



Well, we see it differently.

I think Astarion is one of those who will use your help if you are kind to him, but sooner or later will betray you. I also don't think the source of his evil is just vampirism. And the problem is that it's a CHAOTIC evil, not any other subspecies. This is not a habit. Not an injury. Not a law for him. This is a kind of entertainment, pleasure. In fact, if you try to fix him, you will destroy the basis of his personality.

A lot of people think he's a victim of his master, I think he's always been an asshole. And if that's the case, then fix a 200+ year-old asshole... well, it looks very illogical. For me ofc...

But Yes, this is just my opinion. If they give him an arch of redemption, I just want it to be logical, not just because the fans want it to be.

Posted By: A Clown Re: Astarion and Sebille - 26/11/20 02:23 PM
Originally Posted by Nyloth
Originally Posted by Eldath
To me it just seems like he is bitching about the wine and tears everyone down around him like the petty little tyrant as he is. He is trying to be endearing by cutely playing up how he is a bad boy.
Don't get me wrong, Astarion is a bad guy, but I think he is far from irredeemable.



Well, we see it differently.

I think Astarion is one of those who will use your help if you are kind to him, but sooner or later will betray you. I also don't think the source of his evil is just vampirism. And the problem is that it's a CHAOTIC evil, not any other subspecies. This is not a habit. Not an injury. Not a law for him. This is a kind of entertainment, pleasure. In fact, if you try to fix him, you will destroy the basis of his personality.

A lot of people think he's a victim of his master, I think he's always been an asshole. And if that's the case, then fix a 200+ year-old asshole... well, it looks very illogical. For me ofc...

But Yes, this is just my opinion. If they give him an arch of redemption, I just want it to be logical, not just because the fans want it to be.



I think the only way to redeem him is to cure him of vampirism, maybe he doesnt even need a redemption, just a change of heart, I feel like his story is rooted towards Cazador and whatever happens with him will obviously effect the outcome of how Astarion will be in future.

I just have a feeling because we are given either the "heroic" or "villan" option regarding the party, we will have more options like that in future, and it will have a major impact on the companions and their outlook at the end
Posted By: Nyloth Re: Astarion and Sebille - 26/11/20 03:10 PM
Originally Posted by A Clown


I think the only way to redeem him is to cure him of vampirism, maybe he doesnt even need a redemption, just a change of heart, I feel like his story is rooted towards Cazador and whatever happens with him will obviously effect the outcome of how Astarion will be in future.

I just have a feeling because we are given either the "heroic" or "villan" option regarding the party, we will have more options like that in future, and it will have a major impact on the companions and their outlook at the end


Astarion says we can just kill his master or he can become a coven leader if he drinks blood. I think the second option is evil. I don't know what happens to a vampire if someone kill hes leader's. hm… Maybe this is a "good" option.
Posted By: Sozz Re: Astarion and Sebille - 26/11/20 03:18 PM
I don't know enough about FR vampire lore to know, but I thought his line about the wine being sour, which you can taste and have described as rich, was a result of vampires not being able to enjoy food. Is that a thing? from that view point I think his disposition at the party could stem from his feeling alienated from the mortal world, even when he's been lead to behave morally...but it's not really a lot to go on.
Posted By: Tarlonniel Re: Astarion and Sebille - 26/11/20 03:25 PM
Originally Posted by Sozz
I don't know enough about FR vampire lore to know, but I thought his line about the wine being sour, which you can taste and have described as rich, was a result of vampires not being able to enjoy food. Is that a thing?


I wondered about that too. I know it's a thing in other vampire lore, but where does this game stand on it? I didn't understand the exchange about the wine at all because I don't drink wine and I couldn't tell if the narrator's description backed up Astarion or contradicted him.
Posted By: A Clown Re: Astarion and Sebille - 26/11/20 03:25 PM
Originally Posted by Sozz
I don't know enough about FR vampire lore to know, but I thought his line about the wine being sour, which you can taste and have described as rich, was a result of vampires not being able to enjoy food. Is that a thing? from that view point I think his disposition at the party could stem from his feeling alienated from the mortal world, even when he's been lead to behave morally...but it's not really a lot to go on.


I thought the same, that he was describing the wine, and I think the whole enjoying food is a thing, since he said tea isnt really his drink, either hes a coffee man or he just doesnt like tea!

But yeah I do think that he might like getting used to the idea of being a "hero" if you keep taking him on that path!

I need to stop analysing it's still EA laugh
Posted By: Tarlonniel Re: Astarion and Sebille - 26/11/20 03:33 PM
Originally Posted by A Clown
he said tea isnt really his drink, either hes a coffee man or he just doesnt like tea!


Tea isn't really his drink because he prefers blood! Vampire humor! laughs in vampire
Posted By: Vamathi Re: Astarion and Sebille - 26/11/20 03:40 PM
Originally Posted by Tarlonniel
Tea isn't really his drink because he prefers blood! Vampire humor! laughs in vampire

Blood is most likely Astarion's comfort drink lol
Seriously he doesn't act like typical DnD vampire at all.
Posted By: Eldath Re: Astarion and Sebille - 26/11/20 04:50 PM
Originally Posted by Nyloth

Well, we see it differently.

I think Astarion is one of those who will use your help if you are kind to him, but sooner or later will betray you. I also don't think the source of his evil is just vampirism. And the problem is that it's a CHAOTIC evil, not any other subspecies. This is not a habit. Not an injury. Not a law for him. This is a kind of entertainment, pleasure. In fact, if you try to fix him, you will destroy the basis of his personality.

A lot of people think he's a victim of his master, I think he's always been an asshole. And if that's the case, then fix a 200+ year-old asshole... well, it looks very illogical. For me ofc...

But Yes, this is just my opinion. If they give him an arch of redemption, I just want it to be logical, not just because the fans want it to be.


I just can't see him as chaotic. He has a law: "stay alive and stay on top no matter what".
That just strikes me as neutral evil, that is to say, self-serving dialed up to 11. The reason he is not lawful evil is because he will always put himself first, and the reason he is not chaotic is because he is fully committed to his own freedom and survival.
I think we will get a redemption arc IF and only IF Astarion manages to forego either his desire for survival or freedom. That would naturally result in him dedicating himself to a purpose outside of himself. It would break his internal vicious cycle of wanting to be alive at all costs pushing him towards enslavement and enslavement pushing him towards wanting to be free.
This is very hard to write however and I'm afraid that Larian may not be able to handle it.
Or maybe they will surprise us and pull of something genius.
Or maybe he really is irredeemable.
I'm very hyped.
Posted By: Sozz Re: Astarion and Sebille - 26/11/20 04:59 PM
Originally Posted by Eldath
Originally Posted by Nyloth

Well, we see it differently.

I think Astarion is one of those who will use your help if you are kind to him, but sooner or later will betray you. I also don't think the source of his evil is just vampirism. And the problem is that it's a CHAOTIC evil, not any other subspecies. This is not a habit. Not an injury. Not a law for him. This is a kind of entertainment, pleasure. In fact, if you try to fix him, you will destroy the basis of his personality.

A lot of people think he's a victim of his master, I think he's always been an asshole. And if that's the case, then fix a 200+ year-old asshole... well, it looks very illogical. For me ofc...

But Yes, this is just my opinion. If they give him an arch of redemption, I just want it to be logical, not just because the fans want it to be.


I just can't see him as chaotic. He has a law: "stay alive and stay on top no matter what".
That just strikes me as neutral evil, that is to say, self-serving dialed up to 11. The reason he is not lawful evil is because he will always put himself first, and the reason he is not chaotic is because he is fully committed to his own freedom and survival.
I think we will get a redemption arc IF and only IF Astarion manages to forego either his desire for survival or freedom. That would naturally result in him dedicating himself to a purpose outside of himself. It would break his internal vicious cycle of wanting to be alive at all costs pushing him towards enslavement and enslavement pushing him towards wanting to be free.
This is very hard to write however and I'm afraid that Larian may not be able to handle it.
Or maybe they will surprise us and pull of something genius.
Or maybe he really is irredeemable.
I'm very hyped.
It's the "no matter what" there that does it, and what part of fully committed to his own freedom doesn't make him chaotic, if he was fully committed to other people's freedom that would be classic Chaotic Good, no?
I think that the difference between being neutral, chaotic, and lawful can be pretty murky but the difference between Chaotic Evil and Neutral Evil, to me, is usually some kind of principal you'd put over yourself.

I'm always down for a good redemption arc, I don't understand the people who've said that its a tired trope.
Posted By: Tarlonniel Re: Astarion and Sebille - 26/11/20 05:08 PM
Originally Posted by Sozz
I'm always down for a good redemption arc, I don't understand the people who've said that its a tired trope.


Me too, but I can understand the argument that if we get player-influenced redemption arcs, we should get also get corruption arcs, which are much less prevalent - I can't even think of one off the top of my head, except Anomen (sort of), and what happened in KotOR II.
Posted By: KillerRabbit Re: Astarion and Sebille - 26/11/20 05:16 PM
Quote
I'm always down for a good redemption arc, I don't understand the people who've said that its a tired trope.


Me three. I think some people are just good at ruining their own fun. If they can identify a theme, plot device or such they decide they don't like it. For them dissection always murders.

Even the word 'trope' needs to be used with a certain degree of irony because the word itself implies that a given device or motif has become tired.

My cleric is out to save some souls. If anything I want more of this.
Posted By: Nyloth Re: Astarion and Sebille - 26/11/20 05:18 PM
Originally Posted by Eldath

I just can't see him as chaotic. He has a law: "stay alive and stay on top no matter what".
That just strikes me as neutral evil, that is to say, self-serving dialed up to 11. The reason he is not lawful evil is because he will always put himself first, and the reason he is not chaotic is because he is fully committed to his own freedom and survival.
I think we will get a redemption arc IF and only IF Astarion manages to forego either his desire for survival or freedom. That would naturally result in him dedicating himself to a purpose outside of himself. It would break his internal vicious cycle of wanting to be alive at all costs pushing him towards enslavement and enslavement pushing him towards wanting to be free.
This is very hard to write however and I'm afraid that Larian may not be able to handle it.
Or maybe they will surprise us and pull of something genius.
Or maybe he really is irredeemable.
I'm very hyped.


But it seemed to me that chaotic evil seeks destruction and freedom. Correct me if I'm wrong. Astarion seeks to destroy everything in his path for fun, and he also seeks freedom. Most of his actions are not for profit, he seeks pleasure. And he finds it in murder of others. Or maybe that description of chaotic evil that I follow has been incorrectly translated? o..o


Originally Posted by Sozz

I'm always down for a good redemption arc, I don't understand the people who've said that its a tired trope.



Because people believe that you can not love a villain for his cunning, ingenuity and cruelty, that everything must be "fixed". And I like villains, I don't like corrected versions, ESPECIALLY when it BASIS on romantic relationship... Believe me, this is quite common, and it looks ridiculous. Also you can be a hero in almost every game. But not in every game you can be a villain. This is rare.
Of course, everyone plays as they want. I just explained why I think it's forced and boring.
Posted By: Eldath Re: Astarion and Sebille - 26/11/20 05:28 PM
Originally Posted by Sozz

It's the "no matter what" there that does it, and what part of fully committed to his own freedom doesn't make him chaotic, if he was fully committed to other people's freedom that would be classic Chaotic Good, no?
I think that the difference between being neutral, chaotic, and lawful can be pretty murky but the difference between Chaotic Evil and Neutral Evil, to me, is usually some kind of principal you'd put over yourself.

I'm always down for a good redemption arc, I don't understand the people who've said that its a tired trope.


I think the "no matter what" part is exactly what makes him a bit lawful. He does NOT compromise on it. There are no such commitments on the chaotic side of things. It's spontaneous. However since Astarion is both somewhat spontanenous and somewhat commited, I would settle on him being neutral on the law-chaos axis, and evil on the good-evil axis because his goals are all self-serving, even at the cost of other people's lives.
I think commitment and chaos don't really mix, because there is an expected consistency. Consistency leads to regularity, regularity tends towards lawfulness.
Posted By: Eldath Re: Astarion and Sebille - 26/11/20 05:35 PM
Originally Posted by Nyloth

But it seemed to me that chaotic evil seeks destruction and freedom. Correct me if I'm wrong. Astarion seeks to destroy everything in his path for fun, and he also seeks freedom. Most of his actions are not for profit, he seeks pleasure. And he finds it in murder of others. Or maybe that description of chaotic evil that I follow has been incorrectly translated? o..o




Astarion doesn't seek destruction for it's own sake. He seeks destruction with a set goal in mind that is: freedom or starting his own vampire sex-dungeon.
Also I just don't think freedom = chaotic.
A lawful good guy is perfectly free to be who he wants to be and he is lawful good, because living up to those values allows him to be what he wants to be. Freedom is the ability to be what you are. It encompasses all of the alignment system, and it's not exclusive to the chaotic segment.
Posted By: KillerRabbit Re: Astarion and Sebille - 26/11/20 06:00 PM
Of all the potential redemption arcs Astarian and Gale seem the least likely to change.

Yeah, Astarian wants to become the strongest vampire lord in Faerun and it will be difficult to turn him from that path. But I think the wine scene really brings out the pathos in the character. The wine is excellent but he can take no pleasure in it. For him enjoyment only comes in the form of fleeting moments. That's the curse, he's been doomed to only find pleasure in the taste of blood and he has surrendered to that fate by developing a sadist's taste for cruelty. And now he's lost, no longer does he have a master to tell him what to do and, having defined himself against another for 200 years, he's struggling with who he is. Afloat in asea of misery he found isolated islands of pleasure in acts of seduction and of cruelty -- now he has found another place to anchor, will that be enough? He could use you as safe harbor to develop a taste for kindness or he could succumb to the fantasy that he will be happy once he becomes master and Cazador the slave.

Eager to see what happens with him.
Posted By: Innateagle Re: Astarion and Sebille - 26/11/20 06:20 PM
Originally Posted by Sozz
Originally Posted by Eldath
Originally Posted by Nyloth

Well, we see it differently.

I think Astarion is one of those who will use your help if you are kind to him, but sooner or later will betray you. I also don't think the source of his evil is just vampirism. And the problem is that it's a CHAOTIC evil, not any other subspecies. This is not a habit. Not an injury. Not a law for him. This is a kind of entertainment, pleasure. In fact, if you try to fix him, you will destroy the basis of his personality.

A lot of people think he's a victim of his master, I think he's always been an asshole. And if that's the case, then fix a 200+ year-old asshole... well, it looks very illogical. For me ofc...

But Yes, this is just my opinion. If they give him an arch of redemption, I just want it to be logical, not just because the fans want it to be.


I just can't see him as chaotic. He has a law: "stay alive and stay on top no matter what".
That just strikes me as neutral evil, that is to say, self-serving dialed up to 11. The reason he is not lawful evil is because he will always put himself first, and the reason he is not chaotic is because he is fully committed to his own freedom and survival.
I think we will get a redemption arc IF and only IF Astarion manages to forego either his desire for survival or freedom. That would naturally result in him dedicating himself to a purpose outside of himself. It would break his internal vicious cycle of wanting to be alive at all costs pushing him towards enslavement and enslavement pushing him towards wanting to be free.
This is very hard to write however and I'm afraid that Larian may not be able to handle it.
Or maybe they will surprise us and pull of something genius.
Or maybe he really is irredeemable.
I'm very hyped.
It's the "no matter what" there that does it, and what part of fully committed to his own freedom doesn't make him chaotic, if he was fully committed to other people's freedom that would be classic Chaotic Good, no?
I think that the difference between being neutral, chaotic, and lawful can be pretty murky but the difference between Chaotic Evil and Neutral Evil, to me, is usually some kind of principal you'd put over yourself.

I'm always down for a good redemption arc, I don't understand the people who've said that its a tired trope.


I've always seen Lawful Evil as the one with the 'higher calling', if you will, while Neutral Evil as kind of like the out-for-themselves chaotic neutral but willing to go the extra step
Originally Posted by Eldath


Originally Posted by Sozz

It's the "no matter what" there that does it, and what part of fully committed to his own freedom doesn't make him chaotic, if he was fully committed to other people's freedom that would be classic Chaotic Good, no?
I think that the difference between being neutral, chaotic, and lawful can be pretty murky but the difference between Chaotic Evil and Neutral Evil, to me, is usually some kind of principal you'd put over yourself.

I'm always down for a good redemption arc, I don't understand the people who've said that its a tired trope.


I think the "no matter what" part is exactly what makes him a bit lawful. He does NOT compromise on it. There are no such commitments on the chaotic side of things. It's spontaneous. However since Astarion is both somewhat spontanenous and somewhat commited, I would settle on him being neutral on the law-chaos axis, and evil on the good-evil axis because his goals are all self-serving, even at the cost of other people's lives.
I think commitment and chaos don't really mix, because there is an expected consistency. Consistency leads to regularity, regularity tends towards lawfulness.


I think what makes him chaotic is that his current goal is quite crazy, wanting to control the tadpoles straight out of the bat despite knowing jack about them, and he also wants to kill as much people as he can while pursuing it. A lawful evil, like Lae'zel, or a neutral evil, like SH, would be way more practical, which they are.
Posted By: Tarlonniel Re: Astarion and Sebille - 26/11/20 06:25 PM
I think Gale has the potential for an arc, but not so much focused around redemption as dealing with hubris. Lae'zel also doesn't seem to be headed for redemption, exactly, just realizing that her ideals and reality don't measure up, and deciding what to do about it.
Posted By: Phea Re: Astarion and Sebille - 26/11/20 06:32 PM
Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
Yeah, Astarian wants to become the strongest vampire lord in Faerun and it will be difficult to turn him from that path.


I really don't think so. He said he just wants to kill his master and be free. I know he can lie but his dialogues are quite consistent in this matter.

Also, there is this moment in the game
when we can talk to the magic mirror as any party member we want. The mirror asks the character what he would like to see there the most. Astarion has 3 options: to see his real home he haven't seen for centuries, to see how to control the tadpole and to see Cazador burning in the sun. No great power or becoming a vampire lord.


I think his greatest dream is just to be free (obviously). Maybe later he'd like to become an important person in the city once again or something, but to be honest I didn't find any evidence in the game for him wanting to be a vampire lord. On the contrary even. I think it's natural to assume he wants to be an evil powerful vampire because he is an evil character and a vampire slave, but his plot doesn't seem to go there, at least for now. Who knows, maybe he can change his mind in Act 2 - or maybe PC can change his mind - but for now I'm pretty sure he doesn't want it.

Of course he could do it if it were the only way to break free from Cazador.
Posted By: alice_ashpool Re: Astarion and Sebille - 26/11/20 06:43 PM
Originally Posted by Innateagle
or a neutral evil, like SH, would be way more practical, which they are.

She's lawful neutral. She has none of the characteristics which would indicate that she is neutral evil - people just seem blinded by the alignment of her goddess.
Posted By: alice_ashpool Re: Astarion and Sebille - 26/11/20 06:45 PM
Still think my alignment allocations, such as they are hold weight

Astarion: Neutral Evil (chaotic leaning)
Lae'zel: Neutral Evil (Lawful leaning)
Shadowheart: Lawful Neutral (Evil leaning)
Gale: Neutral Evil
Wyll: Chaotic Neutral (Good leaning)
Posted By: Nyloth Re: Astarion and Sebille - 26/11/20 07:01 PM
Originally Posted by Phea
Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
Yeah, Astarian wants to become the strongest vampire lord in Faerun and it will be difficult to turn him from that path.


I really don't think so. He said he just wants to kill his master and be free. I know he can lie but his dialogues are quite consistent in this matter.

Also, there is this moment in the game
when we can talk to the magic mirror as any party member we want. The mirror asks the character what he would like to see there the most. Astarion has 3 options: to see his real home he haven't seen for centuries, to see how to control the tadpole and to see Cazador burning in the sun. No great power or becoming a vampire lord.


I think his greatest dream is just to be free (obviously). Maybe later he'd like to become an important person in the city once again or something, but to be honest I didn't find any evidence in the game for him wanting to be a vampire lord. On the contrary even. I think it's natural to assume he wants to be an evil powerful vampire because he is an evil character and a vampire slave, but his plot doesn't seem to go there, at least for now. Who knows, maybe he can change his mind in Act 2 - or maybe PC can change his mind - but for now I'm pretty sure he doesn't want it.

Of course he could do it if it were the only way to break free from Cazador.


No, he first says that he can become a coven leader, and then he says, "well, or we can just kill him." And he wants to control the worm, but why? He likes the power.
Posted By: Innateagle Re: Astarion and Sebille - 26/11/20 07:07 PM
Originally Posted by alice_ashpool
Originally Posted by Innateagle
or a neutral evil, like SH, would be way more practical, which they are.

She's lawful neutral. She has none of the characteristics which would indicate that she is neutral evil - people just seem blinded by the alignment of her goddess.


Pretty sure she'd have no powers if she didn't belive/follow the teachings of her neutral evil goddess. Not 100% about it, guessing it works like for paladins, but i'd disagree even if it wasn't so based on what we're shown in the game. She very clearly puts her needs above those of others, and is also very much willing to commit evil acts if they benefit her.

I would say she's a special flair of neutral evil, though. She's obviously got an instinctual sense of what's good and what's evil, it's just that she was brought up by the latter. Reminds me of Morrigan from DA:O actually.
Posted By: Sozz Re: Astarion and Sebille - 26/11/20 07:25 PM
Originally Posted by Eldath
Originally Posted by Nyloth

But it seemed to me that chaotic evil seeks destruction and freedom. Correct me if I'm wrong. Astarion seeks to destroy everything in his path for fun, and he also seeks freedom. Most of his actions are not for profit, he seeks pleasure. And he finds it in murder of others. Or maybe that description of chaotic evil that I follow has been incorrectly translated? o..o

Astarion doesn't seek destruction for it's own sake. He seeks destruction with a set goal in mind that is: freedom or starting his own vampire sex-dungeon.
Also I just don't think freedom = chaotic.
A lawful good guy is perfectly free to be who he wants to be and he is lawful good, because living up to those values allows him to be what he wants to be. Freedom is the ability to be what you are. It encompasses all of the alignment system, and it's not exclusive to the chaotic segment.
I think freedom in this context is usually a euphemism for any hierarchical system that subsumes the individual will, Lawful alignments believe in a reciprocity of actions regulated by a third-party, in a society these are Laws, personally it's some kind of personal ethic that regulates your interactions with others and which you expect to see reciprocated. Chaotic alignments see this as a pretense towards tyranny, and believe there can be no law, third-party, or ethic that can be expected to replicate such reciprocity. So Astarion can have a personal code that totally self-interested and it doesn't make him Lawful, because he doesn't see himself as being subject to a external hierarchy. The difference for a Neutral character is that they don't believe in hierarchies per se but in unstructured principals that dictate actions without subsuming an individual's will, but also don't view the gratification of your own will as an ends unto themselves.

Did I mention how murky this is?
Posted By: Sozz Re: Astarion and Sebille - 26/11/20 07:27 PM
Originally Posted by alice_ashpool
Originally Posted by Innateagle
or a neutral evil, like SH, would be way more practical, which they are.

She's lawful neutral. She has none of the characteristics which would indicate that she is neutral evil - people just seem blinded by the alignment of her goddess.

Does that mean there can be no organized religion for chaotic/neutral gods?
Posted By: ash elemental Re: Astarion and Sebille - 26/11/20 07:28 PM
Originally Posted by Nyloth

No, he first says that he can become a coven leader, and then he says, "well, or we can just kill him." And he wants to control the worm, but why? He likes the power.
It was my understanding that Astarion wants to control the worm, because it's the only thing preventing him from falling under his master's compulsion (don't D&D vampires have some mind controlling powers?).
Which could explain why Daisy appears as Cazador in his dreams; it's to scare him into using the worm powers. Later dreams she might tempt him by offering to make him more powerful than Cazador instead.
Posted By: Sozz Re: Astarion and Sebille - 26/11/20 07:34 PM
Originally Posted by Nyloth
Because people believe that you can not love a villain for his cunning, ingenuity and cruelty, that everything must be "fixed". And I like villains, I don't like corrected versions, ESPECIALLY when it BASIS on romantic relationship... Believe me, this is quite common, and it looks ridiculous. Also you can be a hero in almost every game. But not in every game you can be a villain. This is rare.
Of course, everyone plays as they want. I just explained why I think it's forced and boring.


That would only be an issue if they force you to redeem Astarion, I'm with you %100 on gating characterization behind a romance plot.
The most interesting character quests in BG:2 were the ones where you had an influence on the alignment of your companion, if they didn't continue this in BG:3 I think it would be a huge missed opportunity
Posted By: Nyloth Re: Astarion and Sebille - 26/11/20 07:40 PM
Originally Posted by ash elemental
Originally Posted by Nyloth

No, he first says that he can become a coven leader, and then he says, "well, or we can just kill him." And he wants to control the worm, but why? He likes the power.
It was my understanding that Astarion wants to control the worm, because it's the only thing preventing him from falling under his master's compulsion (don't D&D vampires have some mind controlling powers?).
Which could explain why Daisy appears as Cazador in his dreams; it's to scare him into using the worm powers. Later dreams she might tempt him by offering to make him more powerful than Cazador instead.



We don't know for sure. We can only guess at his true causes. But when you talk to him, he first says that he can drink the master's blood, and only then adds that we can also just kill him. Doesn't that indicate his priorities? By the way, I strongly regret that I looked at the spoiler... I mean, you're talking about something that's not officially available.

Could you please ... not answer me with that information?.. Thanks.
Posted By: Phea Re: Astarion and Sebille - 26/11/20 07:41 PM
Originally Posted by ash elemental
Originally Posted by Nyloth

No, he first says that he can become a coven leader, and then he says, "well, or we can just kill him." And he wants to control the worm, but why? He likes the power.
It was my understanding that Astarion wants to control the worm, because it's the only thing preventing him from falling under his master's compulsion (don't D&D vampires have some mind controlling powers?).
Which could explain why Daisy appears as Cazador in his dreams; it's to scare him into using the worm powers. Later dreams she might tempt him by offering to make him more powerful than Cazador instead.



Exactly. He is interested in powerful objects and the tadpole because he knows only something powerful can truly free him from Cazador.
I mean, he is quite low in Maslov's hierarchy of needs right now.

EDIT:
I can't find the dialogue right now, but I think I remember that he says he could become a full vampire, but it's enough for him to just kill Cazador. That's why I think he just wants to be free at any cost and becoming a full vampire is simply one of ways to achieve this goal.
Posted By: Eldath Re: Astarion and Sebille - 26/11/20 07:51 PM
Originally Posted by Sozz
I think freedom in this context is usually a euphemism for any hierarchical system that subsumes the individual will, Lawful alignments believe in a reciprocity of actions regulated by a third-party, in a society these are Laws, personally it's some kind of personal ethic that regulates your interactions with others and which you expect to see reciprocated. Chaotic alignments see this as a pretense towards tyranny, and believe there can be no law, third-party, or ethic that can be expected to replicate such reciprocity. So Astarion can have a personal code that totally self-interested and it doesn't make him Lawful, because he doesn't see himself as being subject to a external hierarchy. The difference for a Neutral character is that they don't believe in hierarchies per se but in unstructured principals that dictate actions without subsuming an individual's will, but also don't view the gratification of your own will as an ends unto themselves.

Did I mention how murky this is?


I think neutral evil characters believe in a hierarchy but they are (supposed to be) on top. After all they put themselves first. If you put something first that's already a hierarchy.
I firmly believe Astarion to be Neutral Evil, the reason why I mention lawful a lot because he has some lawful and some chaotic tendencies, but he is not really on either extreme.
Posted By: alice_ashpool Re: Astarion and Sebille - 26/11/20 08:03 PM
Originally Posted by Sozz
Originally Posted by alice_ashpool
Originally Posted by Innateagle
or a neutral evil, like SH, would be way more practical, which they are.

She's lawful neutral. She has none of the characteristics which would indicate that she is neutral evil - people just seem blinded by the alignment of her goddess.

Does that mean there can be no organized religion for chaotic/neutral gods?

Its an interesting point, but I would draw on the notion of a neutral evil deity and their relation to their clerics as opposed to their worshipers. i think it is perfectly possible for neutral deities to have hierarchies, but anyone in their hierarchy is always going to be towards the lawful end of the spectrum regardless of the alignment of the god because they are subsumed/submitted to said hierarchy which they in some way have to believe in: they believe the gods clerical hierarchy is as things should be, which is lawful. Chaotic gods are a whole other thing, but I guess an actual chaotic evil cleric, when encountering another cleric of the same god would be just as likely to kill them to prove their superiority in the eyes of their deity with the hope of further blessings than work together.

Edit; I think I would draw on the example of lolth who is a chaotic evil deity but the drow in general are neutral evil, and the church of lolth structure leans towards lawful evil
Posted By: ash elemental Re: Astarion and Sebille - 26/11/20 08:03 PM
Originally Posted by Nyloth

We don't know for sure. We can only guess at his true causes. But when you talk to him, he first says that he can drink the master's blood, and only then adds that we can also just kill him. Doesn't that indicate his priorities? By the way, I strongly regret that I looked at the spoiler... I mean, you're talking about something that's not officially available.

I'm not sure what you mean by not officially available, it's in one of his dialogues?
Posted By: KillerRabbit Re: Astarion and Sebille - 26/11/20 08:25 PM
Originally Posted by Phea
Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
Yeah, Astarian wants to become the strongest vampire lord in Faerun and it will be difficult to turn him from that path.


I really don't think so. He said he just wants to kill his master and be free. I know he can lie but his dialogues are quite consistent in this matter.

Also, there is this moment in the game
when we can talk to the magic mirror as any party member we want. The mirror asks the character what he would like to see there the most. Astarion has 3 options: to see his real home he haven't seen for centuries, to see how to control the tadpole and to see Cazador burning in the sun. No great power or becoming a vampire lord.


I think his greatest dream is just to be free (obviously). Maybe later he'd like to become an important person in the city once again or something, but to be honest I didn't find any evidence in the game for him wanting to be a vampire lord. On the contrary even. I think it's natural to assume he wants to be an evil powerful vampire because he is an evil character and a vampire slave, but his plot doesn't seem to go there, at least for now. Who knows, maybe he can change his mind in Act 2 - or maybe PC can change his mind - but for now I'm pretty sure he doesn't want it.

Of course he could do it if it were the only way to break free from Cazador.


Very interesting. We'll see how this turns out -- I think you are on to something in him wanting to be free but I also think there is another part of Astarian that doesn't really know what to do with the freedom he already has. So he's caught between wanting even more freedom and trying to get rid of the freedom. Under Cazador's yoke his life had a purpose and the desire to control the tadpole is filling that void but what after that? Killing Cazador but then? What to do with the next 200 years? He's a like a sulky version of Dr Who after a regeneration. Who am I now? What do I like? Clearly not saving tieflings . . . perhaps I'll find the answer in sex?
Posted By: Nyloth Re: Astarion and Sebille - 26/11/20 08:30 PM
Originally Posted by ash elemental
Originally Posted by Nyloth

We don't know for sure. We can only guess at his true causes. But when you talk to him, he first says that he can drink the master's blood, and only then adds that we can also just kill him. Doesn't that indicate his priorities? By the way, I strongly regret that I looked at the spoiler... I mean, you're talking about something that's not officially available.

I'm not sure what you mean by not officially available, it's in one of his dialogues?


I'm talking about dream… Who the heck is Daisy??? As far as I know, this dream is only available in mod… so…
Posted By: KillerRabbit Re: Astarion and Sebille - 26/11/20 08:43 PM
Originally Posted by alice_ashpool
Still think my alignment allocations, such as they are hold weight

Astarion: Neutral Evil (chaotic leaning)
Lae'zel: Neutral Evil (Lawful leaning)
Shadowheart: Lawful Neutral (Evil leaning)
Gale: Neutral Evil
Wyll: Chaotic Neutral (Good leaning)



Pretty close to my guesses but I have Lae-zel pegged at Lawful Evil and Shadowheart at Neutral Evil (good leaning)

Long ago there a dragon magazine that had recommendations for how to role play alignment taking into account the character's wisdom and intelligence. Some evil characters would just be selfish and not be interested in philosophical discussions of the nature of good and evil. Someone like Korgan for example "I hate to be bastard here . . . " (no you don't Korgan, no you don't) Others would have a highly developed philosophy to justify their actions -- some realms equivalent of social darwinism. "Of course I dominate others, domination is part of the fabric of this world. The strong will always prey on the weak. Judge me if you like but I see the world for what it is and act accordingly. I watch you stumbling around blinded by pretty illusions like justice and the sight fills me with contempt"

I always saw neutral evil as "evil, by any means that are effective" Shar is like the others in game of thrones, Shar wants to bring about the long night. If propping up a tyranny gets the clergy closer to that goal, great. If persuading the peasants to overthrow King McGoody that's what they will do. For the Sharran it doesn't matter if the means involve propping up evil institutions or tearing down good ones what matters is that darkness prevails.
Posted By: KillerRabbit Re: Astarion and Sebille - 26/11/20 08:44 PM
Originally Posted by Nyloth
Originally Posted by ash elemental
Originally Posted by Nyloth

We don't know for sure. We can only guess at his true causes. But when you talk to him, he first says that he can drink the master's blood, and only then adds that we can also just kill him. Doesn't that indicate his priorities? By the way, I strongly regret that I looked at the spoiler... I mean, you're talking about something that's not officially available.

I'm not sure what you mean by not officially available, it's in one of his dialogues?


I'm talking about dream… Who the heck is Daisy??? As far as I know, this dream is only available in mod… so…





In the code, daisy dress is the name of the clothing of the "Who do you dream of" character wears.
Posted By: A Clown Re: Astarion and Sebille - 26/11/20 08:55 PM
Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
In the code, daisy dress is the name of the clothing of the "Who do you dream of" character wears.


Wonder what the male equivalent would be? Daniel? Daffodil? Dylan? Dimitri? Doug? Dave? David?
Posted By: ash elemental Re: Astarion and Sebille - 26/11/20 09:01 PM
Originally Posted by Nyloth
Originally Posted by ash elemental
Originally Posted by Nyloth

We don't know for sure. We can only guess at his true causes. But when you talk to him, he first says that he can drink the master's blood, and only then adds that we can also just kill him. Doesn't that indicate his priorities? By the way, I strongly regret that I looked at the spoiler... I mean, you're talking about something that's not officially available.

I'm not sure what you mean by not officially available, it's in one of his dialogues?


I'm talking about dream… Who the heck is Daisy??? As far as I know, this dream is only available in mod… so…




I don't play with mods. Daisy is what people have been calling
the tadpole-caused dream lover. You can chat to the companions about those dreams.
Posted By: Nyloth Re: Astarion and Sebille - 26/11/20 09:09 PM
Originally Posted by ash elemental

I don't play with mods. Daisy is what people have been calling
the tadpole-caused dream lover. You can chat to the companions about those dreams.


Oh sorry, idk that. I thought it was the name of a story character.
Posted By: Tarlonniel Re: Astarion and Sebille - 26/11/20 09:27 PM
Originally Posted by A Clown
Wonder what the male equivalent would be? Daniel? Daffodil? Dylan? Dimitri? Doug? Dave? David?


Logically, if the female version is Daisy, the male version is Duke. I know that and I never even watched the show.
Posted By: asheraa Re: Astarion and Sebille - 29/11/20 05:22 AM
Originally Posted by SaurianDruid
Shadowheart feels a lot more like the Sebille of this game, to be honest. Right down to the fact that if you're playing the wrong race (Gith or Lizard respectively) there is a high chance you'll end up killing her upon your first meeting.

They're both cagey about their pasts and in service to some dark power they don't want to talk about. They both even have
a loss of memories of who they are supposed to be
as a plot point. And they're both elven and snarky.

Astarion has little in common with Sebille aside from general rogue traits.


I kind of agree with this from the little we've seen so far. The rogue abilities are pretty much the only solid likeness to me. I get sebile much more strongly as a cross between Shadowhearts attitude and Lae'zels personality/general outlook.

Astarion certainly seems to have some redeemable traits and 'good' deep down, which comes out as you get to know him. I'm curious to see if that 'sticks' or whether it was an anomaly/act on his part. As mentioned above there seem to be some differences between early discussion of his back story and the more current data mined spoilers I've tripped over. It'll be interesting to see what his story actually is and how much of an ass he really was before his tragic past occurred!
Posted By: SaurianDruid Re: Astarion and Sebille - 29/11/20 06:31 AM
Originally Posted by Eldath

I think neutral evil characters believe in a hierarchy but they are (supposed to be) on top. After all they put themselves first. If you put something first that's already a hierarchy.


What you describe here is lawful evil. Lawful evil believes in the existence of a strict heirarchy and rules but also strives to bend those rules for their own ends so they can be at the top of that hierarchy. Devils are the quintessential beings of lawful evilness in Forgotten Realms if you want to see what that alignment is all about. Brokering one-sided deals and upholding people to their agreements knowing full well you conned them into making said agreement.

A Neutral Evil character cares about themselves first and foremost but don't have a particular like of rules and order nor seek to break down rules and order when they find it.

Lawful Evil is the career politician while Neutral Evil is the shady hit man the politician hires to take out rivals.

Originally Posted by Eldath

I firmly believe Astarion to be Neutral Evil, the reason why I mention lawful a lot because he has some lawful and some chaotic tendencies, but he is not really on either extreme.



Astarion is not lawful at all. He's pretty definitively a chaotic evil character. He loves causing pain, loves it when you kill indiscriminately or start unnecessary fights, and likes to provoke people into violence. All without an actual end-goal beyond his own personal enjoyment. He also complains when you diffuse situations and avoid conflict even if those conflicts would have only hindered your quest to deal with the tadpole.

He has basic manners and the good sense to not piss off his allies, but that is a long way from being lawful. He's just not full meme-tier chaotic.
Posted By: Nyloth Re: Astarion and Sebille - 29/11/20 08:30 AM
Originally Posted by SaurianDruid


Astarion is not lawful at all. He's pretty definitively a chaotic evil character. He loves causing pain, loves it when you kill indiscriminately or start unnecessary fights, and likes to provoke people into violence. All without an actual end-goal beyond his own personal enjoyment. He also complains when you diffuse situations and avoid conflict even if those conflicts would have only hindered your quest to deal with the tadpole.

He has basic manners and the good sense to not piss off his allies, but that is a long way from being lawful. He's just not full meme-tier chaotic.


Well, at least someone sees it same as I do. I thought I was out of my mind.

Originally Posted by asheraa

have some redeemable traits and 'good' deep down, which comes out as you get to know him


Using information about him that we have in early access and first act, I didn't see anything "good" in him, so I'm wondering why you think he has it. But if it's because of date files, then I don't want to know.
Posted By: Phea Re: Astarion and Sebille - 29/11/20 09:30 AM
Originally Posted by asheraa
As mentioned above there seem to be some differences between early discussion of his back story and the more current data mined spoilers I've tripped over.

Can you tell which data mined spoilers you mean?
Posted By: Bufotenina Re: Astarion and Sebille - 29/11/20 01:00 PM
Originally Posted by JesusDied
Originally Posted by A Clown
[/spoiler] I'm just referring to the time you first find out hes a vampire and he states that he only drinks animal blood, I dont know if he was lying or something, [spoiler]


He is not lying about an animal bit, but he is about the reasons behind it. Which you can call him out on if you had DT activated.
He is making it seem as if he is feeding on animals by choice because he is not "a monster" or doesn't want to be one. In truth, he was forced to do it by his master, and him trying to feed on you is him testing out how "free" is he from his master now.

Also, since we are on topic in regards to Astarion. I recall an article that mentioned a very interesting bit about Astarion's life prior to vampirsim.
Apparently he was a disgraced nobleman who became a magistrate as just a cover. In reality he was smuggling prisoners to vampires. After he became "too corrupt" even for vampires, vampires ended up making a scheme with Cazador to take him down. Hence how he ended up enslaved by him.

Now, I'm not sure if this backstory still stands for Astarion, or was it changed by now. However, if we do follow this, then in all honesty he is the last person to talk about the importance of being allowed to chose.
Since he was basically a glorified slaver himself before his downfall.
If this is still meant to be his backstory prior to Cazador, that is.


Oh frack. Know I know one og my future characaters will try to redeem him :faceslap:
© Larian Studios forums