Hi everyone, i'm posting this mostly because i recently decided to check some of the things Larian has put in Early-Access and one thing that caught my attention where the chosen racial abilities for certain races, or rather the lack of some of them when compared to the P&P 5th Edition, look i understand that when porting something from one form of media to another some things will simply need to be changed or outright cut and i do realize that this is just a very very early build of the game that's nowhere near finished, but i still feel that we as the customers (for a lack of a better word) should remind Larian about things like this if only so that they aren't forgotten among the lots of other work they are already focusing on (and yes i know Larian cannot possibly keep track about everything specially a small thing such as this but still please bear with me here).

Let me give an example; in P&P Half Elves have the racial called "Skill Versatility" which basically allows them to have proficiency with 2 skills of their choosing but its only available if you don't choose a sub-race, if you do choose one of the sub-races the P&P rules allow you to change "Skill Versatility" with some other benefit depending on the specific sub-race: for example lets say i make my Half Elf a Half-High Elf, by the P&P rules i could forgo "Skill Versatility" in exchange for either a "Cantrip" from the Wizard spell list (which scales with Intelligence) or the "Elf Weapon Training" passive (which gives proficiency in Longswords, Shortswords, Shortbows, and Longbows, just like the trait for full Elves).

The thing is that right now on Early-Access not only are we forced to take a sub-race whether we like it or not but also whichever skills they give us its already decided by default leaving no choice for players to exchange it for something else, lets go back to the High-Half Elf example; right now on Early-Access if you want to play as one you are getting the Wizard Cantrip as your racial trait with no choice for anything else, the problem with this is that since it is a Wizard Cantrip it scales with the Intelligence stat which may or may not be useful depending on your class and build, for example lets say you are playing a Half Elf Paladin (or any other class that doesn't really benefits much from intelligence) a Wizard Cantrip its not going to be much use to you since Intelligence is not one of your main stats and since your class is already MAD (Multiple Ability (score) Dependent) its not like you could afford to spread your stats more than they already are, as such the extra Cantrip is not really a useful trait for you and in fact you would benefit more from things like "Skill Versatility" (since everyone benefits from having skills) or "Elf Weapon Training" (since its a martial skill which is more fitting for a martial class, granted for Paladins specifically it may not be as useful since they like Fighters get proficiency with these kind of weapons as a default from their class, but you get what i mean).

The point is because of the current way the race/sub-race system works and how limited the options they give players you may end up with the case of people simply choosing a race/sub-race just because mechanically its the best for that role and completely ignoring others, and while people are in their right to min/max as much as they want, i believe that in a roleplaying game players should have the option to customize their playstyle to their own preference while still choosing to play a character because they like the concept not because its what's best for the role (again i do realize that Larian is nowhere near finished with Baldur's Gate 3 but i also firmly believe that we the customers should remind them of these things just so that they do not forget about it, also feel free to share which racial skills from P&P not currently in Early-Access would you like to see in the full game or post your reasons of why you disagree with me if you wish so, i would like to read your thoughts on this).

That wall of text is quite daunting...

Hit Enter/Return every now and then. There's a 0% chance I'm reading that Demon Wall.

I agree. Personally, I would've broken it up into 4 or 5 paragraphs; however, having said that, I believe the OP is correct. There are far too many instances where Larian Studios has needlessly abandoned features of Pen & Paper 5e, whether it be racial abilities, backgrounds, or classes.

Alright i heard you all, i will edit the "demon wall" in order to make it more bearable for you all, just let me say that this was my first post so i'm still learning, now just give me a sec.

Done, i didn't change much more because i thought it may not make as much sense if certain ideas are too separated, also thanks for the feedback.

thank you i'm glad that you agree with me here, Larian did abandoned some Pen & Paper things that realistically speaking are not really that difficult to implement and that if they were to be added they could help to enrich the game by giving player more choices on how to play and customize their character, which for and RPG is kinda the whole point, still it is Early-Access so we just have to wait and see whether they pick up on this or whether they continue to ignore it (personally i hope for the former), also which particular racial traits/skills would you want to see in the game?

Oi, even with the paragraph breaks that is a bit much. But yes, half-elf skill versatility and also variant human would be welcome additions. Better yet, Tasha’s Calderon character building, so I can make half-orc bards and gnome paladins or whatever I want without hamstringing my effectiveness.

I agree with the general sentiment that more options is better.

Also, your post is much easier to read with the paragraph breaks. Thank you for that!

The half elf case in particular is annoying because the base PH half elf is what you can't do.

I know that even with the breaks its a hassle to read but i didn't think that it would retain as much sense if i split it more, also you are right Variant Human along some other customization options like those in Tasha's could be very well received and realistically shouldn't be that difficult to implement.

No prob

Yeah i mean the base race doesn't specify a sub-race and in fact for all races in the P&P you can choose to not play with a sub-race (either because you don't like any of those bonuses, or because you want your character's background to be vague for roleplay purposes), so the fact that this option is unavailable in Early-Access is troubling because playing without a sub-race is literally the most basic way to play a race in 5th Edition.

Pretty sure sub races is a forgotten realms feature.

I didn't say that they weren't, only that the system as it is now its very restrictive when compared to its Pen & Paper counterpart because said counterpart gives the players more customization options regarding playstyles, so that you can play which race and whichever class you want without compromising the effectiveness of the character, i used the Half Elf case as an example of this; in P&P can choose whether to select a sub-race or not, if you don't you get "Skill Versatility" which is something everyone can benefit from and if you do choose a sub-race you can exchange "Skill Versatility" for some other trait depending on the sub-race (i gave the Wizard Cantrip and the "Elf Weapon Training" as examples of this), but right now in Early Access not only are you forced to choose a sub-race but each one has a pre-selected trait that you cannot change and that may not even be the best choice for the type of character you are making, so i think that that's something they really need to change because otherwise it will encourage people to choose some races over others because of their min/maxing potential and not because they actually enjoy playing it.

no fucking vuman

I'm confused, are you asking for Variant Humans to be added or do you think they shouldn't be added? sorry its just that your post can be interpreted either way.

Your example of a plain Elf would be related to grey hawk setting since that is where it comes from. The core books originally was grey hawk and sub races were forgotten realms. Just a bad example, I know what you mean though; it has been already mentioned for more customization in character creation. If you do not understand sub race is not a choice, you are NOT just a elf you are high elf or wood elf, drow, or half of each.

here is a copy/paste from https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Elf

Subraces
There were at least nine different sub-races of elves:

High elves
Sun elves: Also called gold elves, sun elves were highly civilized elves with a natural gift for wizardry.
Moon elves: Also called silver elves, moon elves were one of the most common subraces. They lived a nomadic lifestyle, and often interacted with other races.
Star elves: Also called mithral elves, they were an isolated subrace that lived on the demiplane of Sildeyuir.

Elves
Sy-tel-quessir, or sylvan elves, were either considered as one race, two cultures of one race, or two separate races.
Wood elves: Also called copper elves and often confused with wild elves, wood elves were a populous subrace that lived simply in the forests.
Wild elves: Also called green elves; feral, reclusive elves who scorned civilization and its trappings, preferring a wild existence close to nature.
Drow: A dark-skinned subrace of elves that predominantly lived in the Underdark.
Aquatic elves: An aquatic race of water-breathing elves.
Avariel: A mostly extinct race of winged elves.
Lythari: A rare and reclusive race of sylvan elves who transformed into wolves.


The worry about people min-maxing during character creation is up to the player, good example right now since its relevant is World of Warcraft's new expansion Shadowlands. Game comes with kind of like a faction / covenant system, each has two new abilities, this feature basically encourages picking a covenant that min-maxes, since its a competitive online game and if you do not pick the right one, it is possible to get kicked from dungeon / raid runs. Now, in a CRPG, the importants is less so since you have multi npcs that can pick up your slack.

This is not important and would fall under: I want more character customization. Bottom line if we do not get more, Mods will more than likely insert tons upon tons of features.

I think you are missing the point if you read my first post i outright said that people min/maxing is no really the problem but rather how the current system in Early-Access limits player agency towards how they build their own characters, also in my example i used Half Elves not full Elves and in 5e D&D sub-race IS very much a choice since you as the player are allowed to NOT choose one if you so desire, which is something i highlighted on the aforementioned example since Half Elves players by default get the trait "Skill Versatility" as a racial ability BUT it can be replaced with other abilities if you choose one of the different sub-races, basically the game itself gives you a choice between playing a character with a specific racial background (aka sub-races) and playing one with a more vague ancestry (the base race), so on that point at least you are factually wrong.

Also i'm a former WoW player and i know how competitive the game can be, but i ALSO know that said competitiveness only applies for the higher end content such as Heroic Raids, Mythic+ Dungeons or High end PVP all of which are actually a small percentage of the population that plays the game, so i KNOW for a fact that most people won't care about your class, race or spec/talents (or covenant in the case for Shadowlands) because the average player isn't invested in such high end content, so again you are factually wrong here too, granted i respect your opinion on the matter even if i disagree with it.

What do you think half-elves are?

Half-Elf Versatility. Choose one of the following traits:
Skill Versatility (General). You gain proficiency in two skills of your choice.
Elf Weapon Training (High or Wood Elf Heritage). You have proficiency with the longsword, shortsword, shortbow, and longbow.
Cantrip (High Elf Heritage). You know one cantrip of your choice from the wizard spell list. Intelligence is your spellcasting ability for it.
Fleet of Foot (Wood Elf Heritage). Your base walking speed increases to 35 feet.
Mask of the Wild (Wood Elf Heritage). You can attempt to hide even when you are only lightly obscured by foliage, heavy rain, falling snow, mist, and other natural phenomena.
Drow Magic (Dark Elf Heritage). You know the Dancing Lights cantrip. When you reach 3rd level, you can cast Faerie Fire once, and it recharges after a long rest. When you reach 5th level, you can cast Darkness once, and it recharges after a long rest. Charisma is your spellcasting ability for these spells.
Swim Speed (Sea Elf Heritage). You have a swimming speed of 30 feet.

Since we are not playing greyhawk and this IS forgotten realms you pick a subrace, I pick:
Half-Highelves: Elf Weapon Training and Cantrip, game auto gives me a Cantrip

Half-Wood Elf: Elf Weapon Training, Fleet of Foot, and Mask of the Wild, Game gives me Mask of the Wild

Insert next Half-elf subtype

Do you get it yet? There is no general. 5e has no forgotten realms campaign guide, forgotten realms features were shoved into the base PHB. Now the choice between say Elf Weapons Training and Cantrip I could understand since it is a choice between the two but this would lead to...



BTW did you know some races are outright missing racials, probably cause Larian trying to balance or they just didn't have the time.



You seriously just said half the game, theres questing, crafting, dungeons, raids, and pvp. The right spec will get you passed quests faster, grinding mobs faster, an so on. I've been kicked out of basic dungeons just for being subpar / not meta. Truthfully I'd like to see you prove the average player isn't invested in end content / min-maxing. I know it was very popular to go to websites to find out current talent tree setups back in the day, pretty much what one of my buddies does for every game that has customization, looks up guides and follows them 100%.


Edit* the racial traits for half-elf was referenced from http://dnd5e.wikidot.com/half-elf

im saying that i think vuman is a bad rule that makes pretty mucha ny other race obsolete

Every time I see a post like this I think: "Just implement everything from the fucking book".
I hope Larian realizes that the main criticism towards BG3 is that it is not D&D 5e enough.

Man again totally missing the point, also did you even read what i wrote on my first post? i KNOW what the Half Elf racials are heck i even out right mentioned them during my example (and i used that same website as a source for them even if didn't put the link), and i ALSO know that Larian has left some races without entire racials because for balance and lack of time (it is something that i outright state in my first post) that's the whole point of this forum thread to exchange opinions about it and remind Larian that we would like them to not completely cut them but add them even if sort of modified.

Also on the WoW part yes i can rightly say that most people DON'T CARE about optimization outside high end content, and while yes being optimized does help you breeze through content faster NOT everyone wants to, some actually enjoy taking their to finish things up, so again you are factually wrong saying that eveyone in WoW cares about min/maxing, i for one was never kicked because my spec or talent choice even if i was using a spec that was considered at the time "subpar", so at the very least my experience on those situations has been very different than yours (and yes i'm referring to random groups).

Understandable Variant Human does lends itself too much for min/maxing but like i said before that's not the real problem (if people want min/max let them it's their choice) the purpose of this thread is to remind Larian that the source material (5th Edition) gives the player a lot of customization options that aren't that difficult to implement and that by adding them they could help enrich the game, because right now their current system for Early Access is too restrictive.

Couldn't have said better myself, you know the worst part of it all? many of the things in 5e (such as many of the missing racials) aren't actually difficult to implement in a game like this, so it really comes down to either Larian hasn't has the time to implement them or they chose not to because of "balancing" reasons.

Hmm you can quote multiple people and respond to everyone in one post using the editor button in case you did not know.

I'm all for more options by the way.

I didn't know i'm actually new here and this was my first thread, so thanks for the info also yeah i think that Larian should really lean more towards 5th Edition when it comes to rules and system (specially those related to customization options).

My main concern is that making the game less 5e is a deliberate decision. If so, I'd like them to clarify, because what I'm expecting is a pure D&D game given the title.

Yeah i too would like them to clarify that because realistically most people interested on this are those who want a D&D game and if they take out what makes it so (the 5e ruleset in this case) then it wouldn't be that but D:OS3.

I suggest they add some slight racial Ability customization, similar to the recent official Tasha's Cauldron ...

I understand such an additional feature is a pain in the butt for the devs who have plenty of their plate, but it makes some race-class combinations more viable, like a Dwarf Paladin with 16 Charisma (instead of max. 15), a Drow Wizard with 16 Int (instead of max. 15 at level 1). In those two good examples, it is only 1 Ability point worth of flexibility or difference with the normal Racial Ability bonuses.

As stated in a few D&D (WotC) books, not every single hero from a given race all have the same stereotypical perks/bonuses.

Although I find the Tasha's Cauldron's racial variants a bit too flexible or generous, some race-class combinations need flexibility added to the "Standard Array" Ability Scores. Like the 1 Ability point change I mention above.

I understand some will request up to +2 in one atypical Ability instead. I can live with that : not a big deal either.

A bit of flexibility could also be a sort of compensation for those who wish to roll Ability points for higher stats (but that is another topic: not a fan of random high Ability scores when trying to balance a D&D game, but racial customization or just being able to get 16 or 17 in any chosen Ability [instead of max. 15] might appease a bit those who would like higher stats).

I kinda wish we could have negative racial modifiers back like -4Cha for duergar and -2INT for halforcs.
It makes building those characters more of a challange if they have some drawbacks.

Well here we go again...

I have not played Pen and Paper Dungeons Dragons since 3.5 edition... though I have played other pen and paper games like GURPS.

I thought we would get feats often.

Hell no!

It is not that Baldurs Gate 3 is different from Dungeons Dragons 5 rules.

What so now I understand that you get feats at level 4 and next time at level 8... and after that none since level cap is level 10?

That means my characters stats are wrong...

Well good that I noticed that now.... in ALPHA.... I will create a different character to this game.

I became level 3 and then I checked why do I not get new feats???
The answer you can get feats at level 4 and 8 and 12 etc... but since max level is going to be 10 so at level 4 an 8.

@Terminator2020 : Feats can be chosen at each 4 levels in one given class, but you can alternatively chose to gain +2 Ability points instead. 5e is indeed really not generous on that aspect.

I often feel obliged to choose +2 Ability points, which is a bit boring...
I mean the difference between 16 and 18 Dex for example is pretty big or 16 to 18 Int for a Wizard (if you could even start with 16 in the first place!)
Hence also why I suggest a bit of racial flexibility for the starting bonuses, as made more official in the new Tasha's Cauldron...

Nah, attribute flexibility is the human's thing. The other races have their own bonuses.

Haven't you read the latest D&D book? Everyone is human now, racial bonuses do not exist anymore.

Nah, optional features are made to be opted in or out.

With the latest book (Tashas) you can freely swap out attributes, too because everyone is special and not bound by biology.
And from the interviews this is the vision of the future of D&D.

What I suggest to DMs and Larian is a compromise between the two poles some of you state here, between rigid racial limit (like the Drow Wizard with maximum 15 Int) and the everyone is variant extreme.

a) 1 point Ability flexibility, so some race-class combinations are not too gimped in comparison to others (16 max at level 1 in an important Ability)

b) for the tabletop, sometimes one Tool can be swapped to another. Not relevant to BG3.

I'm just telling you where WotC wants to go with D&D. Personally I am all for hard racial abilities. You can't escape biology. Tools and weapons should be tied to background or class though.

1.) Tashas is terrible and should not be taken seriously
2.) VUman is banned by every DM with half a brain
3.) 5e RAW doesnt work and you shouldnt strive to emulate it, as nobody does.