Larian Studios
Posted By: VeronicaTash Astarion Must Be Reworked - 02/01/21 05:43 PM
As I was dealing with questions about DnD characters in general - it became clear that Astarion just does not fit into 5e. Since 5e simplified everything, including stereotyping classes, he just doesn't nearly match the 5e definition of a rogue.

Now, under 3.5e he would have perfectly fit in as a rogue:

Originally Posted by 3.5e Player's Handbook
Rogues share little in common with each other. Some are stealthy thieves. Others are silver-tongued tricksters. Still others are scouts, infiltrators, spies, diplomats, or thugs. What they share is versatility, adaptability, and resourcefulness. In general, rogues are skilled at getting what others don’t want them to get: entrance into a locked treasure vault, safe passage past a deadly trap, secret battle plans, a guard’s trust, or some random person’s pocket money.

An aristocratic paperpusher dragged into vampirism fits well with a Lvl 1 rogue there - however, Larian did not choose to design the game under 3.5e, but rather they chose to use 5e - and I've figured out where I had the player's handbook for that:

Originally Posted by 5e Player's Handbook
Every town and city has its share of rogues. Most of them live up to the worst stereotypes of the class, making a living as burglars, assassins, cutpurses, and con artists. Often, these scoundrels are organized into thieves’ guilds or crime families. Plenty of rogues operate independently, but even they sometimes recruit apprentices to help them in their scams and heists. A few rogues make an honest living as locksmiths, investigators, or exterminators, which can be a dangerous job in a world where dire rats—and wererats—haunt the sewers.

Astarion doesn't have a criminal background; he has an aristocratic and vampire spawn background. 5e reduces rogues to criminals where a handful of them do honest work at higher levels - this does not work for Astarion at all. Either his class or his story must be reworked, because 5e is overly simplifed and reduced its classes to stereotypes.
Posted By: Ixal Re: Astarion Must Be Reworked - 02/01/21 05:51 PM
Won't happen, but what should be reworked is his entire backstory as vampire.
Vampires and Vampire Spawns have several monsterous abilities like claws, resistance to weapons, etc. which make them not suitable as a equal level player character. And Larians solution to this has been very lazy and simply ignore all of it, breaking D&D lore, and say "the tadpole did it" which is just lame.
Posted By: auburn2 Re: Astarion Must Be Reworked - 02/01/21 05:51 PM
This is nonsense and background is completely separate from class, you can have any class/background combination in 5e. A aristocrat rogue works fine.
Posted By: Veilburner Re: Astarion Must Be Reworked - 02/01/21 05:59 PM
It says most of them and not all of them so Astarion is fine as is a rogue player character with an aristocratic background.
Posted By: Bruh Re: Astarion Must Be Reworked - 02/01/21 06:01 PM
You are ridicolously reaching smile
Astarion used to sell criminals to a clan of vampires for profits, which is a criminal activity.
Maybe you should rework your ability to be well-informed.

That being said he would make more sense to me as bard then a rogue, but not due to the reasons you mention, those are all non-sense.
The really big problem with Astarion is that he supposedly doesn't have a soul because he can't see his own image in mirrors, however he totally does act like he has a soul.

By and large I'm very happy with Astarion and he is my favorite companion so far.
Posted By: Starlights Re: Astarion Must Be Reworked - 02/01/21 06:01 PM
I beg to kindly differ Vero - your opposition is strictly based on the fact that the PHB guiding backstory doesn't mention "criminal". I believe, (and still learning) that when it comes to role play in this game, it's all about imagination .. as long as the DM (larian) allows it.

Can't help it:
Player: "That was never part of our fifth edition."
DM: "I am altering the fifth edition, pray that I do not alter it any further."

Perhaps Astarion "the aristocratic", was so scared of his masters that he ended up developing extra skills that he was able to perfect over the last 100 years of his vampiric life.

-S
Posted By: VeronicaTash Re: Astarion Must Be Reworked - 02/01/21 06:01 PM
Originally Posted by Veilburner
It says most of them and not all of them so Astarion is fine as is a rogue player character with an aristocratic background.

They do things that level 1 rogues cannot do - so these are retired thieves and cutthroats, not people who haven't been thieves at all.
Posted By: T2aV Re: Astarion Must Be Reworked - 02/01/21 06:14 PM
You don't need to be a criminal to be a rogue. Rogues can be anything from a swashbuckler to a scout in the military
Posted By: Boblawblah Re: Astarion Must Be Reworked - 02/01/21 06:20 PM
This feels like a not so subtle attack on 5e or something. It's interesting that you didn't quote the rest of the 5e statement on rogues

"A few rogues make an honest living as locksmiths, investigators, or exterminators...As adventurers, rogues fall on both sides of the law. some are hardened criminals..Some have learned and perfect their skills with the explicit purpose of infiltrating ancient ruins and hidden crypts in search of treasure."
Posted By: KillerRabbit Re: Astarion Must Be Reworked - 02/01/21 06:24 PM
One of things I like about 5th is that it brought back this first edition feels. There are lots of places in the 5th ed rule books that say story > rules. If the story is good and the DM approves it works -- especially with character background. Archetypes should be flexible. Astarian's master made him a seducer / scavenger: after Astarian brought Cazador the beautiful people to feast on Astarian had to go back to their dwellings and pilfer their jewels . . .

He's had 200 years, plenty of time to pick up some new skills.
Posted By: Madscientist Re: Astarion Must Be Reworked - 02/01/21 07:00 PM
Being a noble rogue is totally fine.

The problem is being a lv1 vampire rogue. So the tadpole make him lose his sunlight sensitivity, but he also loses his regeneration, resistances and the ability to climb on walls.

In PST and MotB we had very unusual companions and the game cared more about the story than balance. So we got a floating skull, a living armor, a soul construct or a bear God, to name a few.

If they do not want to give him vampire powers plus rogue powers, then the alternative is to make him a (not undead) slave of a vampire. So a vampire lord has forced a noble elf rogue to work for him for 200 years and the tadpole only removed the mental control of the vampire over him.
Posted By: biomag Re: Astarion Must Be Reworked - 02/01/21 07:16 PM
I never took the classes too literally, more as skillsets with a suggest background. But I also come from skill based RPGs and not classes/level and to me those are horribly constraining and not overly worth to bother once the game starts. Story over class descriptions any day.
Posted By: Nyloth Re: Astarion Must Be Reworked - 02/01/21 07:25 PM
Astarion has not been an noble for 200 years, all this time, he's been looking for victims for himself and his master, so I'm sure it works for him.
Posted By: VeronicaTash Re: Astarion Must Be Reworked - 02/01/21 07:32 PM
Originally Posted by Nyloth
Astarion has not been an noble for 200 years, all this time, he's been looking for victims for himself and his master, so I'm sure it works for him.

According to him, he was a puppet, not a skilled rogue in training - nothing he did was decided by himself for 200 years.
Posted By: fallenj Re: Astarion Must Be Reworked - 02/01/21 07:36 PM
Originally Posted by VeronicaTash
As I was dealing with questions about DnD characters in general - it became clear that Astarion just does not fit into 5e. Since 5e simplified everything, including stereotyping classes, he just doesn't nearly match the 5e definition of a rogue.

Now, under 3.5e he would have perfectly fit in as a rogue:

Originally Posted by 3.5e Player's Handbook
Rogues share little in common with each other. Some are stealthy thieves. Others are silver-tongued tricksters. Still others are scouts, infiltrators, spies, diplomats, or thugs. What they share is versatility, adaptability, and resourcefulness. In general, rogues are skilled at getting what others don’t want them to get: entrance into a locked treasure vault, safe passage past a deadly trap, secret battle plans, a guard’s trust, or some random person’s pocket money.

An aristocratic paperpusher dragged into vampirism fits well with a Lvl 1 rogue there - however, Larian did not choose to design the game under 3.5e, but rather they chose to use 5e - and I've figured out where I had the player's handbook for that:

Originally Posted by 5e Player's Handbook
Every town and city has its share of rogues. Most of them live up to the worst stereotypes of the class, making a living as burglars, assassins, cutpurses, and con artists. Often, these scoundrels are organized into thieves’ guilds or crime families. Plenty of rogues operate independently, but even they sometimes recruit apprentices to help them in their scams and heists. A few rogues make an honest living as locksmiths, investigators, or exterminators, which can be a dangerous job in a world where dire rats—and wererats—haunt the sewers.

Astarion doesn't have a criminal background; he has an aristocratic and vampire spawn background. 5e reduces rogues to criminals where a handful of them do honest work at higher levels - this does not work for Astarion at all. Either his class or his story must be reworked, because 5e is overly simplifed and reduced its classes to stereotypes.

Astarion would probably IMO be a swashbuckler or duelist rogue arc-type, with a very cut throat attitude. Now, I don't even know if there is such a thing for that in 5e or not.

Edit* to add to that or give more of a example:

Posted By: A Clown Re: Astarion Must Be Reworked - 02/01/21 07:43 PM
Originally Posted by fallenj
Edit* to add to that or give more of a example:


Can we just replace Astarion with Inigo Montoya
Posted By: VeronicaTash Re: Astarion Must Be Reworked - 02/01/21 07:50 PM
Originally Posted by fallenj
Astarion would probably IMO be a swashbuckler or duelist rogue arc-type, with a very cut throat attitude. Now, I don't even know if there is such a thing for that in 5e or not.

To the best of my knowledge - there is not. They simplified everything, leaving no room for an interesting story, so players can focus more on simplistic stories.

Originally Posted by A Clown
Can we just replace Astarion with Inigo Montoya

Only if we get to make a reply: "I don't even know who the fuck your father is. Who is this man that I supposedly killed?!"
Posted By: fallenj Re: Astarion Must Be Reworked - 02/01/21 07:58 PM
Originally Posted by VeronicaTash
Originally Posted by fallenj
Astarion would probably IMO be a swashbuckler or duelist rogue arc-type, with a very cut throat attitude. Now, I don't even know if there is such a thing for that in 5e or not.

To the best of my knowledge - there is not. They simplified everything, leaving no room for an interesting story, so players can focus more on simplistic stories.

Originally Posted by A Clown
Can we just replace Astarion with Inigo Montoya

Only if we get to make a reply: "I don't even know who the fuck your father is. Who is this man that I supposedly killed?!"

The only thing that comes to mind is the duelist feature you can pickup instead of a feat. This gives you additional ac when wielding only one, one-hand weapon...eeeh this is off the top of my head, I could be wrong in some way.
Posted By: Vallis Re: Astarion Must Be Reworked - 02/01/21 08:22 PM
Originally Posted by VeronicaTash
Astarion doesn't have a criminal background; he has an aristocratic and vampire spawn background. 5e reduces rogues to criminals where a handful of them do honest work at higher levels - this does not work for Astarion at all. Either his class or his story must be reworked, because 5e is overly simplifed and reduced its classes to stereotypes.

As someone already pointed out, he does have a criminal background, and the guy literally disaproves when you defend children against adults who would abuse them. I understand you like the character, but don't try to apologize for him or revize what he is, he might be charismatic. Doesn't change the fact he's an ass.
Posted By: mrfuji3 Re: Astarion Must Be Reworked - 02/01/21 08:24 PM
Originally Posted by VeronicaTash
Originally Posted by fallenj
Astarion would probably IMO be a swashbuckler or duelist rogue arc-type, with a very cut throat attitude. Now, I don't even know if there is such a thing for that in 5e or not.

To the best of my knowledge - there is not. They simplified everything, leaving no room for an interesting story, so players can focus more on simplistic stories.

There is in Xanathar's Guide to Everything http://dnd5e.wikidot.com/rogue:swashbuckler
Posted By: Evandir Re: Astarion Must Be Reworked - 02/01/21 08:32 PM
There is literally a rogue subclass in 5e called "Swashbuckler." If you are going to come to this forum and continuously bash the system this game is based on, could you at least do your homework first?

"To the best of my knowledge - there is not. They simplified everything, leaving no room for an interesting story, so players can focus more on simplistic stories."

So you're saying that 5e has apparently simplified everything, so people can't make interesting characters, yet you're the one telling Larian they have to change their character because it doesn't fit your skewed version of the rogue class. That's some mental gymnastics right there.
Posted By: A_va Re: Astarion Must Be Reworked - 02/01/21 09:00 PM
Originally Posted by VeronicaTash
As I was dealing with questions about DnD characters in general - it became clear that Astarion just does not fit into 5e. Since 5e simplified everything, including stereotyping classes, he just doesn't nearly match the 5e definition of a rogue.

Now, under 3.5e he would have perfectly fit in as a rogue:

Originally Posted by 3.5e Player's Handbook
Rogues share little in common with each other. Some are stealthy thieves. Others are silver-tongued tricksters. Still others are scouts, infiltrators, spies, diplomats, or thugs. What they share is versatility, adaptability, and resourcefulness. In general, rogues are skilled at getting what others don’t want them to get: entrance into a locked treasure vault, safe passage past a deadly trap, secret battle plans, a guard’s trust, or some random person’s pocket money.

An aristocratic paperpusher dragged into vampirism fits well with a Lvl 1 rogue there - however, Larian did not choose to design the game under 3.5e, but rather they chose to use 5e - and I've figured out where I had the player's handbook for that:

Originally Posted by 5e Player's Handbook
Every town and city has its share of rogues. Most of them live up to the worst stereotypes of the class, making a living as burglars, assassins, cutpurses, and con artists. Often, these scoundrels are organized into thieves’ guilds or crime families. Plenty of rogues operate independently, but even they sometimes recruit apprentices to help them in their scams and heists. A few rogues make an honest living as locksmiths, investigators, or exterminators, which can be a dangerous job in a world where dire rats—and wererats—haunt the sewers.

Astarion doesn't have a criminal background; he has an aristocratic and vampire spawn background. 5e reduces rogues to criminals where a handful of them do honest work at higher levels - this does not work for Astarion at all. Either his class or his story must be reworked, because 5e is overly simplifed and reduced its classes to stereotypes.
Two thoughts about this
1- Doesn't Astarion classify as an Assassin? I'm almost certain he kills people as ordered by Cazador, or at least lead them to their death
2- Just because a game is based on something, it doesn't mean the writers can't have the "creative license" to go beyond it. Things aren't and shouldn't be set in stone, specially for narrative purposes. Besides, this isn't some game breaking issue.
Posted By: Umbra Re: Astarion Must Be Reworked - 02/01/21 11:29 PM
I had to laugh at the idea that aristos can't be criminals, it reminded me of this:

"Vimes reached behind the desk and picked up a faded copy of Twurp’s Peerage or, as he personally thought of it, the guide to the criminal classes. You wouldn’t find slum dwellers in these pages, but you would find their landlords. And, while it was regarded as pretty good evidence of criminality to be living in a slum, for some reason owning a whole street of them merely got you invited to the very best social occasions." - Prachett.
Posted By: Bufotenina Re: Astarion Must Be Reworked - 03/01/21 12:31 AM
Originally Posted by VeronicaTash
As I was dealing with questions about DnD characters in general - it became clear that Astarion just does not fit into 5e. Since 5e simplified everything, including stereotyping classes, he just doesn't nearly match the 5e definition of a rogue.

Now, under 3.5e he would have perfectly fit in as a rogue:

Originally Posted by 3.5e Player's Handbook
Rogues share little in common with each other. Some are stealthy thieves. Others are silver-tongued tricksters. Still others are scouts, infiltrators, spies, diplomats, or thugs. What they share is versatility, adaptability, and resourcefulness. In general, rogues are skilled at getting what others don’t want them to get: entrance into a locked treasure vault, safe passage past a deadly trap, secret battle plans, a guard’s trust, or some random person’s pocket money.

An aristocratic paperpusher dragged into vampirism fits well with a Lvl 1 rogue there - however, Larian did not choose to design the game under 3.5e, but rather they chose to use 5e - and I've figured out where I had the player's handbook for that:

Originally Posted by 5e Player's Handbook
Every town and city has its share of rogues. Most of them live up to the worst stereotypes of the class, making a living as burglars, assassins, cutpurses, and con artists. Often, these scoundrels are organized into thieves’ guilds or crime families. Plenty of rogues operate independently, but even they sometimes recruit apprentices to help them in their scams and heists. A few rogues make an honest living as locksmiths, investigators, or exterminators, which can be a dangerous job in a world where dire rats—and wererats—haunt the sewers.

Astarion doesn't have a criminal background; he has an aristocratic and vampire spawn background. 5e reduces rogues to criminals where a handful of them do honest work at higher levels - this does not work for Astarion at all. Either his class or his story must be reworked, because 5e is overly simplifed and reduced its classes to stereotypes.

Who cares. Seriously, maybe the writers took their freedoms. Astarion is good as a rogue, he's heartless, his callousness is obvious, he deceives and lies, he craves and flourish in senseless carnage and violence, furthermore he is in the run from his master, what better background and character for a rogue?

Moreover if Larian had to follow by the letter the manuals it would mean to loose what makes them Larian. Also what about a minimun of flexibility?
Posted By: spectralhunter Re: Astarion Must Be Reworked - 03/01/21 12:43 AM
I think Astarion should have been an escaped thrall instead of a vampire. He was used to lure people to his master to feed. Since as a thrall he can be in sunlight, he can perform tasks other vampire spawn can’t.

Now once we reach BG, his story could develop where he might become a vampire spawn.

I think Larian took way too many liberties with what a vampire is in D&D.
Posted By: Wyrmblade Re: Astarion Must Be Reworked - 03/01/21 12:56 AM
Originally Posted by spectralhunter
I think Astarion should have been an escaped thrall instead of a vampire. He was used to lure people to his master to feed. Since as a thrall he can be in sunlight, he can perform tasks other vampire spawn can’t.

Now once we reach BG, his story could develop where he might become a vampire spawn.

I think Larian took way too many liberties with what a vampire is in D&D.

Agree, my guess is that the writer is stuck in some twilight sexfantasy. Vampires are not low level creatures.

Vampires eat human = bad romance

It makes no sense to have a vampire in this story.
Posted By: Boblawblah Re: Astarion Must Be Reworked - 03/01/21 01:38 AM
Originally Posted by Wyrmblade
Originally Posted by spectralhunter
I think Astarion should have been an escaped thrall instead of a vampire. He was used to lure people to his master to feed. Since as a thrall he can be in sunlight, he can perform tasks other vampire spawn can’t.

Now once we reach BG, his story could develop where he might become a vampire spawn.

I think Larian took way too many liberties with what a vampire is in D&D.

Agree, my guess is that the writer is stuck in some twilight sexfantasy. Vampires are not low level creatures.

Vampires eat human = bad romance

It makes no sense to have a vampire in this story.

It makes sense in a DOS game smile
Posted By: IrenicusBG3 Re: Astarion Must Be Reworked - 03/01/21 02:44 AM
They had to come with the tadpole excuse for him, because there is no Day/night cycle.

Also he is too much comical for a dark character.
Posted By: bullse Re: Astarion Must Be Reworked - 03/01/21 08:33 AM
Astarian is fine, overall......despite the fact that in the vast majority of my SOLO playthroughs, I kill him, but then again, I kill most of the NPC we can party, cause yeah, I am play SOLO, don't need them. But yeah, Astarian is fine, in no need of being re-worked.
Posted By: Nyloth Re: Astarion Must Be Reworked - 03/01/21 09:35 AM
Originally Posted by Wyrmblade
Originally Posted by spectralhunter
I think Astarion should have been an escaped thrall instead of a vampire. He was used to lure people to his master to feed. Since as a thrall he can be in sunlight, he can perform tasks other vampire spawn can’t.

Now once we reach BG, his story could develop where he might become a vampire spawn.

I think Larian took way too many liberties with what a vampire is in D&D.

Agree, my guess is that the writer is stuck in some twilight sexfantasy. Vampires are not low level creatures.

Vampires eat human = bad romance

It makes no sense to have a vampire in this story.

But he's not a vampire, he's a vampire spawn. Which is still different. And that makes him a conditional vampire+slave. Also, vampires are evil characters, so it all goes well. I beg you he is one of the most popular characters, because Larian combined the best in him. He's an noble, a vampire, and an asshole. Perfect.
Posted By: Ixal Re: Astarion Must Be Reworked - 03/01/21 09:56 AM
Originally Posted by Nyloth
But he's not a vampire, he's a vampire spawn.

Not as much of a difference as you pretend. He is still a vampire with many vampire powers.
Posted By: Bruh Re: Astarion Must Be Reworked - 03/01/21 10:00 AM
Nah, Astarion is fine. No rework needed.
Posted By: Madscientist Re: Astarion Must Be Reworked - 03/01/21 10:12 AM
As written before, they should change him from being a vampire spawn to being a slave of a vampire. He can keep his personality, he still has reasons to kill or escape his former master and we remove all the problems with the vampire powers he does not have.

A vampire spawn is quite powerful, they regenerate every turn unless hit by radient damage, can climb on walls and ceilings and they are resistant to necrotic damage. Being damaged by running water can be avoided most of the time. Only sunlight sensitivity is bad in a timeless game where it never gets dark except while resting.
Posted By: Wyrmblade Re: Astarion Must Be Reworked - 03/01/21 11:06 AM
They can have the same char just remove the vampire part.
It doesnt fit in the campaign.

Why dont they just bring in Elminster as a companion?
Vampirrs are cool is not a excuse to have one in a lvl 1 campaign
Thats how 10yo play RPGs.
I wanna be a vampire
I wanna be a ninja turtle
I wanna be super mario

Maybe we get a plumber as next char since jumping is a big part of the game.
Posted By: Dexai Re: Astarion Must Be Reworked - 03/01/21 12:21 PM
This thread is completely nonsensical. No, OP, rogues do not have to be criminals. Those are examples of where you could find rogues. Not examples of what a rogue have to be.
Posted By: Bufotenina Re: Astarion Must Be Reworked - 03/01/21 02:29 PM
Originally Posted by Wyrmblade
They can have the same char just remove the vampire part.
It doesnt fit in the campaign.

Why dont they just bring in Elminster as a companion?
Vampirrs are cool is not a excuse to have one in a lvl 1 campaign
Thats how 10yo play RPGs.
I wanna be a vampire
I wanna be a ninja turtle
I wanna be super mario

Maybe we get a plumber as next char since jumping is a big part of the game.


Due to the background, something a lot of posters tend to ignore in their arguments, and the set Larian created the presence of Astarion as a Vampire breed, he is a minion in the run far from be a full fledged powerful vampire, the party crashed in a place that immediatly let us now they're in a middle of a conspiracy that involves high level players (like Raphael).

The 10yo reference I'd apply more to how players are criticizing the game ignoring all the backgrounds and all the setting and to how a lot of complains are about the fact that the game dares to ask for something more than the usual "build you characater as a powerhouse" and don't even try to even marginaly remember that role playing means to rely in background stories, setting, flexibility.

Maybe is because the tabletop I played was Vampires The Masquerade in wich to create a powerhouse was quite difficult and the backgrounds had to be solid to be able to merge with the setting, to me the flaws in a lot of arguments are crystal clear. And I wanted to play a Vampire because to play one has a lot of narrative and role playing potential, a vampire is a cursed soul forced in a dead body, someone who can not see the dawn or the sunset, who can not see themselves in a mirror, a being whose humanity and morality are continuosly eroded by the feral insticts. But ehy to want to play a vampire means to be a ten years old [again not so much of arguments here]

There is this post about Astarion not elegible to be a rogue, there are those with the idea that level one characters should be newbies just out of wizardry school or fighting academy or temple or whatever place they used to train, the post about the rangers favoured enemy and how bad was for powerhouse building the fact that the acquired abilities didn't rely on the prefered stats of the class, all have a common trait: in the arguments the personal opinion is clear and open just like the lack of analysis about the backgrounds of the characters, that clearly and solidly and coherently justify the fact that the companions are at level one [a trope that is widely used in rpg, if someone has the chance I suggest to see the campaign, in their youtube chanel, of the group Vive la dirt League], or the set that justify socialites like the companions being involved instead of newbies [seriously: the area surrounding the crash sites has darkdruids plotting, Drows, Bugbears, Trolls, Goblins cohoperating, and entire race moving not in their usual clan way but as a, even if fragile, unified ensemble, and lets not forget that the Drows and Goblins abbandoned their faith to follow a new deity.

Still a lot of comments states that for such a party (a cleric, with erased memories, in a suicide mission on a nautiloid vessel, a fallen and broken wizard, a warlock that regrets his pact with his patron and whose patron has been kidnapped, a vampire minion on the run, a lower rank gith) the crash area is plain and not at their level.

And when the background comes aroun in the arguments there are not critics on incoherences, narratibe weakness, but just plain and flat remarks about them being "contrited" or whatever diminishing adjective is used.

Maybe I'm weird, and, despite being an adult from archeological ages, a ten years old alike, but I do think that the vampire part of Astarion makes him interesting: he is both an arrogant aristocrat high elf with all of due entitlement and a weakling in the run from someone who is really powerful and embraced (sorry Vampires the masquerade slang, I don't know ho the act of creating a new vampire is called in DnD) him to dimish and, maybe, punish him for his twisted and corrupted ways, the fact that he is able to walk in daylight adds layers to the complexity of the conspiration that is evolving in Faerun because is another hint, that sums up with the fact that an Archdruid a powerful Hag an heretic Mindflyer are unable to remove it and to the fact that a powerful demon offers his help, that the culprits are very skilled in netherese magic and probably of very high level.

But that doesn't matter, a conclusion I came because, let me said again, no one has ever really analized the backgrounds and the story.

I wonder how the writers, who are profesionals and not fan fiction writers of archiveofourown, feel when the critics to their work are summed up in affirmations like "why don't put nameofapowerfulbeingoffaerun as companion" [Even when the companios as supposedly powerful they were before the start of this campaign were still far from the peak of the real powerful beings of Faerun]? Or "this is like 10yo, not even written in letters, play rpg" or in posts that don't even try to point out where is the perceived weakness or the fallaciousness of the narrative or the backgrounds.


or how the programmers feel when the critics, a lot of them i dare to say the majority of them, are not about real problems and issues but about feelings of betrayal because the videogame doesn't follow to the lettter this or that edition of rules manual, or because role playing is now more about how you build a powerhouse instead of how to roleplay [the only complains about the dialogues were those that brought down the uniqueness of Shadowheart, because a woman must be gentle and cute because if she is blunt and arsh she is a b*tch, and those, that I fully support, about how blunt are the sexual approaches of the companions].

This game has a big margin of improvement from the narrative point of view (there are incoherences like that of the inability to unmask Kagha after the Goblins/Thiefling questline is resolved, or the line that the main toon says when the mindflier in the crash sites dies, a line good for neutral or evil ones but not for good ones, but there is plenty of these incoherences) but to do that the writers and programmers need real criticism and arguments not just complains based on very personal feelings and that lack of a backbone.
Posted By: Wyrmblade Re: Astarion Must Be Reworked - 03/01/21 06:02 PM
yeah se thats the problem everything thats happening is big stuff something you expect to se in a high level campaign not when you start at level one yeah sure it playable but still makes no sense. An vampire spawn in DnD are much more powerful then an plain human so i cant se why they thought it would be a good ide.

Its nothing wrong about playing powerful or epic campaings but then you ussually start at higher level or atleast everyone is a special class/race or having powerful artifacts.
Here they just gave him a Vampire template cause its cool.
Then for no reason takes away most vampire powers so he doesnt outpower the rest thats what im having problem with thats why the 10yo remark.
so far we know that sunlight and eter home is gone and apperentliy spider climb and regen. Running water dmg is reduced.

Regeneration: The Vampire regains 10 Hit Points at the start of its turn if it has at least 1 hit point and isn't in sunlight or running water. If the Vampire takes radiant damage or damage from Holy Water, this trait doesn't function at the start of the vampire's next turn.

Spider Climb: The Vampire can climb difficult surfaces, including upside down on ceilings, without needing to make an ability check.

Vampire Weaknesses: The Vampire has the following flaws:
Forbiddance. The Vampire can't enter a Residence without an invitation from one of the occupants.
Harmed by Running Water. The Vampire takes 20 acid damage when it ends its turn in running water.
Stake to the Heart. The Vampire is destroyed if a piercing weapon made of wood is driven into its heart while it is Incapacitated in its Resting place.
Sunlight Hypersensitivity. The Vampire takes 20 radiant damage when it starts its turn in sunlight. While in sunlight, it has disadvantage on Attack Rolls and Ability Checks.
Posted By: Abits Re: Astarion Must Be Reworked - 03/01/21 06:14 PM
Originally Posted by Wyrmblade
They can have the same char just remove the vampire part.
It doesnt fit in the campaign.

Why dont they just bring in Elminster as a companion?
Vampirrs are cool is not a excuse to have one in a lvl 1 campaign
Thats how 10yo play RPGs.
I wanna be a vampire
I wanna be a ninja turtle
I wanna be super mario

Maybe we get a plumber as next char since jumping is a big part of the game.
Man to each their own. Role playing is about being whatever you want... Don't be nasty just because people play differently than you.

About Astarion as a vampire spawn - honestly I was kind of disappointed... People here claim he is super strong and shit but in game he has an extra special attack which is not that powerful and he dies when he touches water. Oh my how OP
Posted By: Dexai Re: Astarion Must Be Reworked - 03/01/21 06:19 PM
People are saying that Vampire Spawn should be powerful, not that Astarion is.
Posted By: Wyrmblade Re: Astarion Must Be Reworked - 03/01/21 07:01 PM
Originally Posted by Abits
Originally Posted by Wyrmblade
They can have the same char just remove the vampire part.
It doesnt fit in the campaign.

Why dont they just bring in Elminster as a companion?
Vampirrs are cool is not a excuse to have one in a lvl 1 campaign
Thats how 10yo play RPGs.
I wanna be a vampire
I wanna be a ninja turtle
I wanna be super mario

Maybe we get a plumber as next char since jumping is a big part of the game.
Man to each their own. Role playing is about being whatever you want... Don't be nasty just because people play differently than you.

About Astarion as a vampire spawn - honestly I was kind of disappointed... People here claim he is super strong and shit but in game he has an extra special attack which is not that powerful and he dies when he touches water. Oh my how OP

First of we have a predefined world with rules.
Vampire spawns are NOT level 1 creatures.
Sure you can homebrew it in your own campaigns but this isnt your own.
This is Baldur's Gate 3
Same world
We had Vampires in BG2 try fighting on as a lvl1 char.
Vampire spawns regerate 10HP /round
Removed cause someone has a fantasy about vampires.
This is lore breaking and rule breaking its ok in your own campaign but once again this isnt.
Think they should stick as close to rulebooks as possible,

In bg1 i got killed but gibberlings in first area. The bear was a freaking monster. Here im wrestling with a vampire spawn.
SAME WORLD! supposly same campaing just 100years later.
if you dont see the problem with that im so happy for you.
for me it feels incredible stupid.
I wanted to play Baldur's Gate no twilight
Posted By: Sozz Re: Astarion Must Be Reworked - 03/01/21 09:35 PM
Never let continuity override telling a good story. Going off-book is as much a part of D&D than anything else, and considering how many house rules were part of BG 1 and 2, I'm willing to give this a chance.
Posted By: DuskHorseman Re: Astarion Must Be Reworked - 03/01/21 09:49 PM
Originally Posted by Sozz
Never let continuity override telling a good story. Going off-book is as much a part of D&D than anything else, and considering how many house rules were part of BG 1 and 2, I'm willing to give this a chance.
Agreed. It's also rather heavily implied that all of our companions got nerfed by the Tadpoles in a banter between Wyll and Gale.
Posted By: Evandir Re: Astarion Must Be Reworked - 03/01/21 10:12 PM
Originally Posted by Sozz
Never let continuity override telling a good story. Going off-book is as much a part of D&D than anything else, and considering how many house rules were part of BG 1 and 2, I'm willing to give this a chance.

+1 Well said.
Posted By: spectralhunter Re: Astarion Must Be Reworked - 03/01/21 10:42 PM
Originally Posted by Sozz
Never let continuity override telling a good story. Going off-book is as much a part of D&D than anything else, and considering how many house rules were part of BG 1 and 2, I'm willing to give this a chance.

I could argue going off too much ruins a story because it breaks immersion. Vampires have a distinct power level and changing it because “story” is lazy writing.
Posted By: DuskHorseman Re: Astarion Must Be Reworked - 03/01/21 11:18 PM
Originally Posted by spectralhunter
Originally Posted by Sozz
Never let continuity override telling a good story. Going off-book is as much a part of D&D than anything else, and considering how many house rules were part of BG 1 and 2, I'm willing to give this a chance.

I could argue going off too much ruins a story because it breaks immersion. Vampires have a distinct power level and changing it because “story” is lazy writing.
I'm gonna say it: If someone came to me as a DM with Astarion as a PC, I'd say yeah. It's a pretty good character concept, and I've played with way weirder, and saying "sure yeah you can be a vampire pretty much in name if it helps with this cool subplot I'm down for that" seems like the more reasonable thing than saying "NO vampires HAVE TO BE challenge rating 5 and THEY CAN'T DO ANYTHING BUT EAT BABIES", wouldn't you think?
Posted By: spectralhunter Re: Astarion Must Be Reworked - 03/01/21 11:37 PM
Originally Posted by DuskHorseman
I'm gonna say it: If someone came to me as a DM with Astarion as a PC, I'd say yeah. It's a pretty good character concept, and I've played with way weirder, and saying "sure yeah you can be a vampire pretty much in name if it helps with this cool subplot I'm down for that" seems like the more reasonable thing than saying "NO vampires HAVE TO BE challenge rating 5 and THEY CAN'T DO ANYTHING BUT EAT BABIES", wouldn't you think?

And you know what? That’s perfectly fine at your table. The problem is, even though the game is meant for each person, all the lore and companions affect everyone’s individual stories. Because we are all influenced by the story, it should try to stick with existing lore.

Each change that Larian makes doesn’t just affect one person. It affects everyone.
Posted By: Dexai Re: Astarion Must Be Reworked - 03/01/21 11:56 PM
Originally Posted by DuskHorseman
Originally Posted by Sozz
Never let continuity override telling a good story. Going off-book is as much a part of D&D than anything else, and considering how many house rules were part of BG 1 and 2, I'm willing to give this a chance.
Agreed. It's also rather heavily implied that all of our companions got nerfed by the Tadpoles in a banter between Wyll and Gale.

It is, but that is terrible plot contrivance.



Originally Posted by DuskHorseman
Originally Posted by spectralhunter
Originally Posted by Sozz
Never let continuity override telling a good story. Going off-book is as much a part of D&D than anything else, and considering how many house rules were part of BG 1 and 2, I'm willing to give this a chance.

I could argue going off too much ruins a story because it breaks immersion. Vampires have a distinct power level and changing it because “story” is lazy writing.
I'm gonna say it: If someone came to me as a DM with Astarion as a PC, I'd say yeah. It's a pretty good character concept, and I've played with way weirder, and saying "sure yeah you can be a vampire pretty much in name if it helps with this cool subplot I'm down for that" seems like the more reasonable thing than saying "NO vampires HAVE TO BE challenge rating 5 and THEY CAN'T DO ANYTHING BUT EAT BABIES", wouldn't you think?

I wouldn't, because my experience with roleplaying tells me that the very first thing this person would do is try to use the vampire spawn abilities we agreed they wouldn't get and throw a shit fit when I don't let them :P
Posted By: Wyrmblade Re: Astarion Must Be Reworked - 04/01/21 01:27 AM
Originally Posted by DuskHorseman
Originally Posted by spectralhunter
Originally Posted by Sozz
Never let continuity override telling a good story. Going off-book is as much a part of D&D than anything else, and considering how many house rules were part of BG 1 and 2, I'm willing to give this a chance.

I could argue going off too much ruins a story because it breaks immersion. Vampires have a distinct power level and changing it because “story” is lazy writing.
I'm gonna say it: If someone came to me as a DM with Astarion as a PC, I'd say yeah. It's a pretty good character concept, and I've played with way weirder, and saying "sure yeah you can be a vampire pretty much in name if it helps with this cool subplot I'm down for that" seems like the more reasonable thing than saying "NO vampires HAVE TO BE challenge rating 5 and THEY CAN'T DO ANYTHING BUT EAT BABIES", wouldn't you think?

Wow really? id be more like
NO! not only is it stupid for you to be a vampire in this noobie campaigne im running and also if i let you be a vampire i have to let kyle be a werwolf and kenny can have is baby dragon. This is why we running a LOW LEVEL campaigne so we dont have the cool stuff from start. So sttop finding excuses and learn how to noob.

why do ppl wanna have a high level stuff from the start? cant we be allowed to grow?
Posted By: Dolfanar Re: Astarion Must Be Reworked - 04/01/21 06:57 AM
Honestly , I have zero issue with him being a rogue, and the OPs arguments are specious to be kind.

I *had* no problem with him being a vampire... until I read this thread. Those arguments are very sound. The suggestion of simply making him a vampire thrall is elegant and fixes a ton of issues.

Honestly my bigger issue was him being a vampire AND an Elf. It’s a hat on a hat. There comes a point when you have so many rare background elements that it strains all credulity. Just make him a human. The party needs more humans. Toril is a human dominated world. Not everyone is a super rare snowflake. Plus being an elf doesn’t play into his character one bit. It’s purely cosmetic. You could make him a human and not change a single line off dialogue.
Posted By: Madscientist Re: Astarion Must Be Reworked - 04/01/21 09:53 AM
Originally Posted by Dolfanar
Honestly , I have zero issue with him being a rogue, and the OPs arguments are specious to be kind.

I *had* no problem with him being a vampire... until I read this thread. Those arguments are very sound. The suggestion of simply making him a vampire thrall is elegant and fixes a ton of issues.

Honestly my bigger issue was him being a vampire AND an Elf. It’s a hat on a hat. There comes a point when you have so many rare background elements that it strains all credulity. Just make him a human. The party needs more humans. Toril is a human dominated world. Not everyone is a super rare snowflake. Plus being an elf doesn’t play into his character one bit. It’s purely cosmetic. You could make him a human and not change a single line off dialogue.

Well, elf would explain why he was a vampire thrall ( not vampire spawn ) for centuries.
I do not think an evil master would use magic to make his minions live longer, especially if we talk about a lv1 rogue.
Posted By: Bruh Re: Astarion Must Be Reworked - 04/01/21 11:28 AM
Originally Posted by Dolfanar
Honestly , I have zero issue with him being a rogue, and the OPs arguments are specious to be kind.

I *had* no problem with him being a vampire... until I read this thread. Those arguments are very sound. The suggestion of simply making him a vampire thrall is elegant and fixes a ton of issues.

Honestly my bigger issue was him being a vampire AND an Elf. It’s a hat on a hat. There comes a point when you have so many rare background elements that it strains all credulity. Just make him a human. The party needs more humans. Toril is a human dominated world. Not everyone is a super rare snowflake. Plus being an elf doesn’t play into his character one bit. It’s purely cosmetic. You could make him a human and not change a single line off dialogue.

You make a valid point. Him being an elf is truly just cosmetic, and it would in fact make way more sense for him to be a human if he really wants to stay alive so much. Humans live short lives, it would truly make more sense for one of them to be obsessed with survival.

However is you make him human you have to keep him a vampire-spawn. Thralls age and die, and Astarion served Cazzy for 200 years. Thralls are not actually undead and they must receive blood from the master vampire every week or they lose all their powers. Astarion is going to hang out with us for far longer than that.

So if you make him human he must stay a spawn.
Posted By: Vallis Re: Astarion Must Be Reworked - 04/01/21 03:02 PM
Originally Posted by Bruh
Originally Posted by Dolfanar
Honestly , I have zero issue with him being a rogue, and the OPs arguments are specious to be kind.

I *had* no problem with him being a vampire... until I read this thread. Those arguments are very sound. The suggestion of simply making him a vampire thrall is elegant and fixes a ton of issues.

Honestly my bigger issue was him being a vampire AND an Elf. It’s a hat on a hat. There comes a point when you have so many rare background elements that it strains all credulity. Just make him a human. The party needs more humans. Toril is a human dominated world. Not everyone is a super rare snowflake. Plus being an elf doesn’t play into his character one bit. It’s purely cosmetic. You could make him a human and not change a single line off dialogue.

You make a valid point. Him being an elf is truly just cosmetic, and it would in fact make way more sense for him to be a human if he really wants to stay alive so much. Humans live short lives, it would truly make more sense for one of them to be obsessed with survival.

However is you make him human you have to keep him a vampire-spawn. Thralls age and die, and Astarion served Cazzy for 200 years. Thralls are not actually undead and they must receive blood from the master vampire every week or they lose all their powers. Astarion is going to hang out with us for far longer than that.

So if you make him human he must stay a spawn.

Elves aren't immortal, if anything, experiencing life longer would give them MORE reasons to want to stay alive after centuries of being attached to it.
Posted By: Bruh Re: Astarion Must Be Reworked - 04/01/21 03:36 PM
Originally Posted by Vallis
Elves aren't immortal, if anything, experiencing life longer would give them MORE reasons to want to stay alive after centuries of being attached to it.
That would only make sense if Astarion was nearing his mortal years, but he isn't old by elven standards. At least doesn't look that way.
The reason he became a vampire was because he was killed by a bunch of gur hobos.
Posted By: Vallis Re: Astarion Must Be Reworked - 04/01/21 03:44 PM
Originally Posted by Bruh
Originally Posted by Vallis
Elves aren't immortal, if anything, experiencing life longer would give them MORE reasons to want to stay alive after centuries of being attached to it.
That would only make sense if Astarion was nearing his mortal years, but he isn't old by elven standards. At least doesn't look that way.
The reason he became a vampire was because he was killed by a bunch of gur hobos.

What i'm saying is, having a longer lifespan does not make one not fear mortality. Many old people don't fear death, many young people do. Elves are prone to the same fears and worries any other race is, they are all different and you can't paint one with the same brush and say he shouldn't fear death because he lives 700+ years.
Posted By: Bruh Re: Astarion Must Be Reworked - 04/01/21 04:12 PM
Originally Posted by Vallis
Originally Posted by Bruh
Originally Posted by Vallis
Elves aren't immortal, if anything, experiencing life longer would give them MORE reasons to want to stay alive after centuries of being attached to it.
That would only make sense if Astarion was nearing his mortal years, but he isn't old by elven standards. At least doesn't look that way.
The reason he became a vampire was because he was killed by a bunch of gur hobos.

What i'm saying is, having a longer lifespan does not make one not fear mortality. Many old people don't fear death, many young people do. Elves are prone to the same fears and worries any other race is, they are all different and you can't paint one with the same brush and say he shouldn't fear death because he lives 700+ years.

While I see your point, I think that if us humans can find comfort and forget about death with only 30-40 years ahead of us, and elf can probably be very relaxed about it with 500 years ahead of them.
Posted By: Vallis Re: Astarion Must Be Reworked - 04/01/21 04:45 PM
Originally Posted by Bruh
Originally Posted by Vallis
Originally Posted by Bruh
Originally Posted by Vallis
Elves aren't immortal, if anything, experiencing life longer would give them MORE reasons to want to stay alive after centuries of being attached to it.
That would only make sense if Astarion was nearing his mortal years, but he isn't old by elven standards. At least doesn't look that way.
The reason he became a vampire was because he was killed by a bunch of gur hobos.

What i'm saying is, having a longer lifespan does not make one not fear mortality. Many old people don't fear death, many young people do. Elves are prone to the same fears and worries any other race is, they are all different and you can't paint one with the same brush and say he shouldn't fear death because he lives 700+ years.

While I see your point, I think that if us humans can find comfort and forget about death with only 30-40 years ahead of us, and elf can probably be very relaxed about it with 500 years ahead of them.

Natural causes is not the only way to die, elves can still be killed as easily as a human
Posted By: Dolfanar Re: Astarion Must Be Reworked - 04/01/21 06:10 PM
Originally Posted by Bruh
Originally Posted by Dolfanar
Honestly , I have zero issue with him being a rogue, and the OPs arguments are specious to be kind.

I *had* no problem with him being a vampire... until I read this thread. Those arguments are very sound. The suggestion of simply making him a vampire thrall is elegant and fixes a ton of issues.

Honestly my bigger issue was him being a vampire AND an Elf. It’s a hat on a hat. There comes a point when you have so many rare background elements that it strains all credulity. Just make him a human. The party needs more humans. Toril is a human dominated world. Not everyone is a super rare snowflake. Plus being an elf doesn’t play into his character one bit. It’s purely cosmetic. You could make him a human and not change a single line off dialogue.

You make a valid point. Him being an elf is truly just cosmetic, and it would in fact make way more sense for him to be a human if he really wants to stay alive so much. Humans live short lives, it would truly make more sense for one of them to be obsessed with survival.

However is you make him human you have to keep him a vampire-spawn. Thralls age and die, and Astarion served Cazzy for 200 years. Thralls are not actually undead and they must receive blood from the master vampire every week or they lose all their powers. Astarion is going to hang out with us for far longer than that.

So if you make him human he must stay a spawn.

Fair enough. My original objection and reflection was that you could make him human (with no change to his vamp status) and not have to change a single line of dialogue. This is the easiest adjustment you could make.

To make him an Elf-thrall you would have to tweak the dialogue slightly to make it explicit that he was just a servant and not a vamp himself. It would be also a plus if his “elf-hood” was a factor.

To make him a human-thrall, you need to tweak the story so that he has been in servitude for a couple decades vs centuries.
Posted By: Nyloth Re: Astarion Must Be Reworked - 04/01/21 06:34 PM
You're certainly discussing about Astarion and his vampirism, but I'm interested... What about Cas? I mean his master ALSO ELF (or a half-elf???). And have bread btw idk why...
Posted By: Sharet Re: Astarion Must Be Reworked - 06/01/21 01:04 PM
These topics are exactly the ones showing how people just love to complain.
C'mon now, you can't be a roleplayer and be incapable of imagining a character outside of the general background description of its class. Besides, the Player's Handbook specifies that most of the rogues are low-life criminals, not all of them.
Posted By: Bruh Re: Astarion Must Be Reworked - 06/01/21 01:56 PM
Astarion is the best companion we have so far. I kinda dislike his attribute changes that were introduced in the last patch but he is still the best.
Posted By: Llev Re: Astarion Must Be Reworked - 06/01/21 02:11 PM
Always thought the class descriptions were there purely as suggestion... more a springboard than any kind of limiting factor...
Posted By: DragonMaster69 Re: Astarion Must Be Reworked - 07/01/21 12:48 AM
Originally Posted by Bruh
Astarion is the best companion we have so far. I kinda dislike his attribute changes that were introduced in the last patch but he is still the best.


The only reason for which I keep Astarion around is that he's the only Rogue we have available other than running as one ourselves and I'll have to admit that I'm quite happy Running my female half-elven ranger knight.I'd have killed him the first time he attacked me if it weren't for that fact
Posted By: Nyloth Re: Astarion Must Be Reworked - 07/01/21 03:20 AM
Originally Posted by Bruh
Astarion is the best companion we have so far. I kinda dislike his attribute changes that were introduced in the last patch but he is still the best.

It's for the trickster, as I understand it.



Originally Posted by DragonMaster69
The only reason for which I keep Astarion around is that he's the only Rogue we have available other than running as one ourselves and I'll have to admit that I'm quite happy Running my female half-elven ranger knight.I'd have killed him the first time he attacked me if it weren't for that fact

Good news! If you personally don't like some character, that doesn't make him bad. For example, I almost always kill Wyll.
Posted By: DragonMaster69 Re: Astarion Must Be Reworked - 09/01/21 12:11 AM
Originally Posted by Nyloth
Originally Posted by Bruh
Astarion is the best companion we have so far. I kinda dislike his attribute changes that were introduced in the last patch but he is still the best.

It's for the trickster, as I understand it.



Originally Posted by DragonMaster69
The only reason for which I keep Astarion around is that he's the only Rogue we have available other than running as one ourselves and I'll have to admit that I'm quite happy Running my female half-elven ranger knight.I'd have killed him the first time he attacked me if it weren't for that fact

Good news! If you personally don't like some character, that doesn't make him bad. For example, I almost always kill Wyll.


As for Wyll I tend to like him better than Gale to be honest with you there. But someone who tries to kill me especially when they ask for my help isn't always the best way to make points.
Posted By: Ixal Re: Astarion Must Be Reworked - 09/01/21 01:02 AM
Originally Posted by Bruh
Astarion is the best companion we have so far. I kinda dislike his attribute changes that were introduced in the last patch but he is still the best.

Astarion is the worst companion of them all as he is completely lore breaking. A Vampire Spawn without any of the characteristics and powers he should have and also without most of his weaknesses. And just saying "its the tadpole" is a very weak excuse.
Posted By: spectralhunter Re: Astarion Must Be Reworked - 09/01/21 04:00 PM
Originally Posted by Ixal
Astarion is the worst companion of them all as he is completely lore breaking. A Vampire Spawn without any of the characteristics and powers he should have and also without most of his weaknesses. And just saying "its the tadpole" is a very weak excuse.

Not to mention a vampire spawn isn’t free until their master dies. But again, cuz tadpole.

I think the inconsistencies are there because they didn’t know how to use him in the game. There’s no day/night cycle so the tadpole magically allows him to walk around during the day. The game requires exploration so the tadpole magically allows him to enter other people’s homes.

But for some reason he can’t cross running water because the tadpole can’t magically alter that... My guess is the writers wanted to remind players and not let them forget that, yes Astarion is a vampire.
Posted By: Nyloth Re: Astarion Must Be Reworked - 09/01/21 04:53 PM
Originally Posted by Ixal
Originally Posted by Bruh
Astarion is the best companion we have so far. I kinda dislike his attribute changes that were introduced in the last patch but he is still the best.

Astarion is the worst companion of them all as he is completely lore breaking. A Vampire Spawn without any of the characteristics and powers he should have and also without most of his weaknesses. And just saying "its the tadpole" is a very weak excuse.

I think he was talking about the character's personality. Also in my party Astarion is one of the most powerful characters (if we speak about skills). He also has a bite that helps a lot(and reminds you that he's a vampire, besides water). For other abilities, perhaps too early? I think he should get something else at level 5.
Posted By: Van'tal Re: Astarion Must Be Reworked - 10/01/21 10:39 PM
After he holds a knife to your throat, just kill him.

If you like him, let him join you.
Posted By: spectralhunter Re: Astarion Must Be Reworked - 10/01/21 11:39 PM
Originally Posted by Van'tal
After he holds a knife to your throat, just kill him.

If you like him, let him join you.

At some point I may have to create a worshipper of Bhaal and just murder hobo everyone once their usefulness is over.
Posted By: Van'tal Re: Astarion Must Be Reworked - 11/01/21 12:33 AM
Originally Posted by spectralhunter
Originally Posted by Van'tal
After he holds a knife to your throat, just kill him.

If you like him, let him join you.

At some point I may have to create a worshipper of Bhaal and just murder hobo everyone once their usefulness is over.

*Chuckles* Actually, I think I just left him by the roadside as he whimpered "So that's it then?!, blah blah blah" (well after I first gave him a try).
Posted By: Baldurs-Gate-Fan Re: Astarion Must Be Reworked - 11/01/21 09:06 AM
With astarion it’s very obvious that larian try’s hard to make some interesting characters. But it shows also that they are no passionate DnD fans.

Compare astarion with hexat the vampire rogue from bg2 (Charakter designed by beamdog). Vampire rogue but has to wear a magic cloak in daylight and totally sucks during day (stats and skills). But when the sun goes down.... holy shit.

That’s how it should be made.
Posted By: daMichi Re: Astarion Must Be Reworked - 11/01/21 09:41 AM
Originally Posted by Baldurs-Gate-Fan
With astarion it’s very obvious that larian try’s hard to make some interesting characters. But it shows also that they are no passionate DnD fans.

Compare astarion with hexat the vampire rogue from bg2 (Charakter designed by beamdog). Vampire rogue but has to wear a magic cloak in daylight and totally sucks during day (stats and skills). But when the sun goes down.... holy shit.

That’s how it should be made.

hehe, without a day/night cycle you can't have that wink Good thing the Tadpole allows our Vampire-Spawn to run around in sunlight!
Posted By: Baldurs-Gate-Fan Re: Astarion Must Be Reworked - 11/01/21 09:50 AM
Originally Posted by daMichi
Originally Posted by Baldurs-Gate-Fan
With astarion it’s very obvious that larian try’s hard to make some interesting characters. But it shows also that they are no passionate DnD fans.

Compare astarion with hexat the vampire rogue from bg2 (Charakter designed by beamdog). Vampire rogue but has to wear a magic cloak in daylight and totally sucks during day (stats and skills). But when the sun goes down.... holy shit.

That’s how it should be made.

hehe, without a day/night cycle you can't have that wink Good thing the Tadpole allows our Vampire-Spawn to run around in sunlight!


Hmmm I thought the missing of day and night is part of agenda? Game must be more simple and streamlined. That’s the whole single point behind using 5e edition!
Posted By: daMichi Re: Astarion Must Be Reworked - 11/01/21 10:05 AM
Originally Posted by Baldurs-Gate-Fan
Originally Posted by daMichi
Originally Posted by Baldurs-Gate-Fan
With astarion it’s very obvious that larian try’s hard to make some interesting characters. But it shows also that they are no passionate DnD fans.

Compare astarion with hexat the vampire rogue from bg2 (Charakter designed by beamdog). Vampire rogue but has to wear a magic cloak in daylight and totally sucks during day (stats and skills). But when the sun goes down.... holy shit.

That’s how it should be made.

hehe, without a day/night cycle you can't have that wink Good thing the Tadpole allows our Vampire-Spawn to run around in sunlight!


Hmmm I thought the missing of day and night is part of agenda? Game must be more simple and streamlined. That’s the whole single point behind using 5e edition!

That has nothing to do with DnD 5e. Although some people may believe that 5e simplified everything, there still exist Day/Night on Toril/in the Forgotten Realms wink

That there is no day/night cycle is simply because they are using their own Divinity engine, which does not have weather effects or day/night cycle included. Don't blame DnD 5e, blame the graphic engine. Or the lack of willingness of Larian (or because it would cost too much, and Larian does not see enough benefit).
Posted By: Nyloth Re: Astarion Must Be Reworked - 11/01/21 10:22 AM
Originally Posted by daMichi
Originally Posted by Baldurs-Gate-Fan
Originally Posted by daMichi
Originally Posted by Baldurs-Gate-Fan
With astarion it’s very obvious that larian try’s hard to make some interesting characters. But it shows also that they are no passionate DnD fans.

Compare astarion with hexat the vampire rogue from bg2 (Charakter designed by beamdog). Vampire rogue but has to wear a magic cloak in daylight and totally sucks during day (stats and skills). But when the sun goes down.... holy shit.

That’s how it should be made.

hehe, without a day/night cycle you can't have that wink Good thing the Tadpole allows our Vampire-Spawn to run around in sunlight!


Hmmm I thought the missing of day and night is part of agenda? Game must be more simple and streamlined. That’s the whole single point behind using 5e edition!

That has nothing to do with DnD 5e. Although some people may believe that 5e simplified everything, there still exist Day/Night on Toril/in the Forgotten Realms wink

That there is no day/night cycle is simply because they are using their own Divinity engine, which does not have weather effects or day/night cycle included. Don't blame DnD 5e, blame the graphic engine. Or the lack of willingness of Larian (or because it would cost too much, and Larian does not see enough benefit).

Because it's really not that important, you're giving it too much weight.
Posted By: Baldurs-Gate-Fan Re: Astarion Must Be Reworked - 11/01/21 10:22 AM
Hmmm ok if day and night still exists in 5e despite its agenda to oversimplify the game then why was divinity engine the right way to make bg3?

If someone would be a conspiracy guy, it could come to
Mind that it was the cheapest way to make a DnD mod for divinity 3, then call it bg3 to boost sales and maximize Profit.


But of course this is heresy and in no way anyone would do this. So back on topic how awesome astarion is 😀
Posted By: Etruscan Re: Astarion Must Be Reworked - 11/01/21 04:02 PM
Originally Posted by Nyloth
Because it's really not that important, you're giving it too much weight.

If you are referring to a day/night cycle, then I would strongly disagree. The lack of day/night/weather totally breaks immersion for me and I find the permanent Mediterranean summer in the game frankly quite jarring. Even a fantasy game should have some basis in realism to draw you in and create a palpable sense of a living world.

Anyway, I digress. To get on topic, I don't care for Astarion at all, only took him along because I needed a rogue but I do find his story OTT. As someone else mentioned he would probably work far better as a snobby Elf noble without the extraordinary vampire backstory.
Posted By: daMichi Re: Astarion Must Be Reworked - 11/01/21 04:22 PM
Originally Posted by Nyloth
Because it's really not that important, you're giving it too much weight.

For me it is very important.

Would you not find it more immersive and dramatic, when e.g. you attack a bands of goblins, and it starts to rain and a thunderstorm roars over you, while swords clash and spells are cast? It can be pretty cool. Always sunny gets borring fast.

As for Astarion:
Obviously you like that character, and he is (somehow) important to you. Not for me, I don't care about that companion. But you will not hear me saying, that it's not important, you are giving this character too much weight wink
Posted By: Nyloth Re: Astarion Must Be Reworked - 11/01/21 04:41 PM
Originally Posted by daMichi
Originally Posted by Nyloth
Because it's really not that important, you're giving it too much weight.

For me it is very important.

Would you not find it more immersive and dramatic, when e.g. you attack a bands of goblins, and it starts to rain and a thunderstorm roars over you, while swords clash and spells are cast? It can be pretty cool. Always sunny gets borring fast.

As for Astarion:
Obviously you like that character, and he is (somehow) important to you. Not for me, I don't care about that companion. But you will not hear me saying, that it's not important, you are giving this character too much weight wink

You compare the mechanics to the character LOL. This mechanic won't change the storylines.

I agree that it will add atmosphere to some situations, but it will not affect game that much. I will forget about it after 2-3 hours gameplay, only if the weather conditions do not affect the fight, for example, on the water you can slip or something like that. Then after 10 hours I will hate it xD.

The game has more significant factors, and by the way, characters are one of those factors. And this is about any character, not just Astarion.

It's just that I do see a lot of complaints about the day-night system in each topic, as if it would really make a difference. But apart from the atmosphere, it probably won't affect the gameplay in any way, and you talk about it as if it's a mortal sin of Larian and spoils the whole game. It's a little... well, you know... ghh.
Posted By: Innateagle Re: Astarion Must Be Reworked - 11/01/21 04:52 PM
I don't know about a weather system, but it seems to me a day/night cycle would have probably been the easiest way to establish a connection to the OGs and other similar cRPGs, at least in gameplay terms. Or actually the cheapest way would have probably been a fatigue and injury system, which was there even in DA:O (the game i, having not played DoS, would say BG3 draws more heavily from).

Lowkey, i'm curious to see how they'll handle inns and Baldur's Gate itself. Maybe something like Dragon Age 2? Again, i don't care too much about weather, but for some reason the inns and cities were the most atmospheric places in the OGs, in no small part due to the night/day cycle.
Posted By: Etruscan Re: Astarion Must Be Reworked - 11/01/21 06:28 PM
Originally Posted by Nyloth
I agree that it will add atmosphere to some situations, but it will not affect game that much. I will forget about it after 2-3 hours gameplay, only if the weather conditions do not affect the fight, for example, on the water you can slip or something like that. Then after 10 hours I will hate it xD.

The game has more significant factors, and by the way, characters are one of those factors. And this is about any character, not just Astarion.

It's just that I do see a lot of complaints about the day-night system in each topic, as if it would really make a difference. But apart from the atmosphere, it probably won't affect the gameplay in any way, and you talk about it as if it's a mortal sin of Larian and spoils the whole game. It's a little... well, you know... ghh.

It will not affect the game that much...for you. Well, for many players atmosphere is a huge part of a RPG and it was a huge part of the original BG games (I would argue this atmosphere is tangibly missing from BG3 currently). If a lot of people are complaining about the lack of a day/night cycle then maybe that's because for them it is an integral part of immersing themselves in a fantasy world, so yes it would make a difference though clearly not from a mechanical gameplay perspective.
Posted By: Baldurs-Gate-Fan Re: Astarion Must Be Reworked - 11/01/21 07:08 PM
Originally Posted by Nyloth
Originally Posted by daMichi
Originally Posted by Nyloth
Because it's really not that important, you're giving it too much weight.

For me it is very important.

Would you not find it more immersive and dramatic, when e.g. you attack a bands of goblins, and it starts to rain and a thunderstorm roars over you, while swords clash and spells are cast? It can be pretty cool. Always sunny gets borring fast.

As for Astarion:
Obviously you like that character, and he is (somehow) important to you. Not for me, I don't care about that companion. But you will not hear me saying, that it's not important, you are giving this character too much weight wink

You compare the mechanics to the character LOL. This mechanic won't change the storylines.

I agree that it will add atmosphere to some situations, but it will not affect game that much. I will forget about it after 2-3 hours gameplay, only if the weather conditions do not affect the fight, for example, on the water you can slip or something like that. Then after 10 hours I will hate it xD.

The game has more significant factors, and by the way, characters are one of those factors. And this is about any character, not just Astarion.

It's just that I do see a lot of complaints about the day-night system in each topic, as if it would really make a difference. But apart from the atmosphere, it probably won't affect the gameplay in any way, and you talk about it as if it's a mortal sin of Larian and spoils the whole game. It's a little... well, you know... ghh.


You would be surprised.... it’s not only for immersion. In older DnD or pathfinder when you fight in rain you take a penalty to bow shooting as it should be. And fightin in Heavy Storms you get additional movement penalty and you Charakter become exhausted much faster wich is another heavy penalty then.


The point is simply that with divinity engine seems it’s not possible. Wich is abut strange for a new modern engine when do mama old game already do this.

But choosing day and night sensitive beings like vampires as important companions is truly ridiculous if your engine can’t even support this
Posted By: fallenj Re: Astarion Must Be Reworked - 11/01/21 07:15 PM
If you played the game you know that your characters will frequently complain about being tired. Which leads to a night day cycle, you know since you sleep at night normally...game is EA btw
Posted By: Etruscan Re: Astarion Must Be Reworked - 11/01/21 08:26 PM
Originally Posted by fallenj
If you played the game you know that your characters will frequently complain about being tired. Which leads to a night day cycle, you know since you sleep at night normally...game is EA btw

Technically speaking you are correct but not in the truest sense because we can't be active in any location at night except for the camp. You can rest overnight several times but without a calendar we never know actually what day it is, which is another poor design decision as far as I am concerned.
Posted By: Nyloth Re: Astarion Must Be Reworked - 11/01/21 10:15 PM
Originally Posted by Etruscan
Originally Posted by fallenj
If you played the game you know that your characters will frequently complain about being tired. Which leads to a night day cycle, you know since you sleep at night normally...game is EA btw

Technically speaking you are correct but not in the truest sense because we can't be active in any location at night except for the camp. You can rest overnight several times but without a calendar we never know actually what day it is, which is another poor design decision as far as I am concerned.

You can find out how many days have passed if you look in the diary.
Posted By: Etruscan Re: Astarion Must Be Reworked - 11/01/21 10:23 PM
Originally Posted by Nyloth
You can find out how many days have passed if you look in the diary.

I stand corrected, thank you for pointing this out.
Posted By: daMichi Re: Astarion Must Be Reworked - 12/01/21 07:06 AM
Originally Posted by Nyloth
You can find out how many days have passed if you look in the diary.

Yes, but it does not correlate with how many times I have slept in the camp, at least that's what I remember. I can't start the game right now and try it, my PC died last week ...
Posted By: Baldurs-Gate-Fan Re: Astarion Must Be Reworked - 12/01/21 08:59 AM
What I just wonder is why make a playable character that should heavily interact with day an night cycle when the game doesn’t even feature this? Because vampires are cool?

I mean yes there is surely a lot of potential storywise and even more as a origin playthrough. But why not include a day and night cycle as that would open so much more options and immersion.

And coming up with that tadpole looks abit pathetic and smells for cheap excuse for lack of features.

They could have given him a magic cloak for daylight like it was in bg2.

It will be interesting however as astarion can never become a real vampire in the Game as tadpole dont work with undead.

Well ok maybe in the larian edition of DnD they will.....
Posted By: Dexai Re: Astarion Must Be Reworked - 12/01/21 09:29 AM
Yeah, no day cycle is very harmful for a lot of very basic RP. Night creatures -- and I'm not even talking vampires here I mean thieves and scoundrels -- are going sorely unrepresented. The city of Baldur's Gate is risking to be extremely unatmospheric.
Posted By: Etruscan Re: Astarion Must Be Reworked - 12/01/21 11:40 AM
Originally Posted by Dexai
Yeah, no day cycle is very harmful for a lot of very basic RP. Night creatures -- and I'm not even talking vampires here I mean thieves and scoundrels -- are going sorely unrepresented. The city of Baldur's Gate is risking to be extremely unatmospheric.

Absolutely. One of my favourite things about BG2 were the sounds at night while walking around the Slums or Docks area, it created such a potent atmosphere and one which mostly suggested inherent danger. It will be a farce if we can only experience the city of Baldurs Gate in permanent sunlight.
Posted By: A_va Re: Astarion Must Be Reworked - 12/01/21 05:04 PM
Originally Posted by Dexai
Yeah, no day cycle is very harmful for a lot of very basic RP. Night creatures -- and I'm not even talking vampires here I mean thieves and scoundrels -- are going sorely unrepresented. The city of Baldur's Gate is risking to be extremely unatmospheric.
+100 to this
Posted By: Paleo Re: Astarion Must Be Reworked - 22/01/21 08:45 PM
After playing BG3 for some hours, I only have only one thing about Astarion character that seems a little bit off for me. We basically traveling with quite the powerful company, if we look at their backstories. So why not to start game from a higher level? I have played D&D and such cases are very very common. That way, Astarion could have been introduced with more vampyric powers (after he reveals himself as a bloodsucker). Right now, he just seems like a simple rogue, even with that bite. I don't think that tadpole's work on entering the houses uninvited, walking in the sun and overwritting mental hold from Caz is too much or against any lore. The tadpole itself is being tampered with by the greater power, so such feats should not be impossible.
Also, I hope that we get to play a side story about dealing with Caz. And if we win, I hope it is not some drooly love story end with Astarion dismissing his Evil alignment. I would really want to see an end, where freed Astarion (or even finally a true vampire Astarion) imprisons (as living blood bags), kills or enslaves (thrall, spawn) every travel companion who helped him and he feels even a little bit attached too. It would be a trully good and vampire lore fitting end. After all, D&D vampires are creatures without soul, serving only their evil whims and desires.
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