Larian Studios
Posted By: Scribe Constructive Listing of Diffference - 18/02/21 03:52 PM
Hello Folks!

In the interest of making as many updates as are both possible and logical, would anyone have a list of the various design or implementation differences between 5e and Larians rule set?

For example, Shove as Bonus Action
Posted By: DuskHorseman Re: Constructive Listing of Diffference - 18/02/21 03:59 PM
Well, Scribe, I have an incomplete list of some changes, so here we go.

1. Disengage is a bonus action
2. Like, a lot of the Ranger.
3. Dipping and Shoving as Bonus Actions
4. Wizards can learn Cleric spells. I hope they remove this one eventually, personally.
5. GOOlocks don't have any Level 1 features, and the Pact of the Blade and Pact of the Tome aren't present.
6. Rogues don't have experitse ;-;

That's most of the notable stuff that I can recall. Hope this helps!
Posted By: Scribe Re: Constructive Listing of Diffference - 18/02/21 04:04 PM
Yep, every bit helps, thank you.
Posted By: Danielbda Re: Constructive Listing of Diffference - 18/02/21 04:07 PM
Originally Posted by DuskHorseman
Well, Scribe, I have an incomplete list of some changes, so here we go.

1. Disengage is a bonus action
2. Like, a lot of the Ranger.
3. Dipping and Shoving as Bonus Actions
4. Wizards can learn Cleric spells. I hope they remove this one eventually, personally.
5. GOOlocks don't have any Level 1 features, and the Pact of the Blade and Pact of the Tome aren't present.
6. Rogues don't have experitse ;-;

That's most of the notable stuff that I can recall. Hope this helps!
6. Thieves also gain a second bonus action instead of second-story work, since there is no climbing, cunning action only works for Dash as Hide and disengange are bonus actions for every class, which makes the Rogue weaker in comparison.
Cunning action: Hide specially is one of the most iconic features of the class in the PnP.
Posted By: Scribe Re: Constructive Listing of Diffference - 18/02/21 04:21 PM
Hide, Disengage, and Jump all need a look for sure.
There's this old thread: https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=689874&nt=2&page=1
Posted By: nation Re: Constructive Listing of Diffference - 18/02/21 06:10 PM
Originally Posted by DuskHorseman
4. Wizards can learn Cleric spells. I hope they remove this one eventually, personally.
id be kinda shocked if this isnt updated in patch 4, as its fairly clear cut - but who really knows lol
Posted By: RBarbare Re: Constructive Listing of Diffference - 18/02/21 06:25 PM
All classes can use scrolls.

Great Weapons Master is missing the choice to use the -5/+10 option; instead, it is always applied.

Dip should not exist, except for poison, and that's debatable. I can't find the exact rule, but application of poison is usually non-combat.

Too few short rests. In 5e, short rests are 1 hour, so you might have 3-4 in a day and could reasonably have up to 6. This completely changes the balance of power for the warlock.

Too much control over familiar actions - in 5e directing them is a bonus action.

Arcane Tricksters do not get Mage Hand for free and it cannot do the abilities it is supposed to have for them, e.g., lockpicking.

Several problems with how on-hit additional damage is applied, e.g., Hail of Thorns, but I don't run the various classes enough to detail them.
Posted By: Lunar Dante Re: Constructive Listing of Diffference - 18/02/21 06:31 PM
Height adv/dis
In the spirit of D&D5 (Xanathar, DM Guide), far too many magic items / scrolls / potions / powder/ grenades (total unbalance)
Healing with food ! and in combat !!
Throwing potions at unconscious characters to heal them
Jump : avoid attack of opportunity
Posted By: Kadajko Re: Constructive Listing of Diffference - 18/02/21 06:46 PM
Originally Posted by Danielbda
6. Thieves also gain a second bonus action instead of second-story work, since there is no climbing, cunning action only works for Dash as Hide and disengange are bonus actions for every class, which makes the Rogue weaker in comparison.
Cunning action: Hide specially is one of the most iconic features of the class in the PnP.

You can use the second bonus action for a second off-hand attack, that's not exactly weak.
Posted By: mrfuji3 Re: Constructive Listing of Diffference - 18/02/21 06:54 PM
Originally Posted by RBarbare
Great Weapons Master is missing the choice to use the -5/+10 option; instead, it is always applied.
I think you can toggle this on/off in your Reactions Bar.
Don’t get me wrong.... but all the things you say have been said since months. And there are threads with dozens of pages about it where is everything explained in detail why it’s bad and tons of Suggestions how to fix it. And many of them are of tiny effort to fix.

If you watched that panel you can clearly see that larian is givin shit for the forums and feedback. We all know that height advantage is totaly OP in game and the whole combat evolves around that. And what happens? Druid is designed to even exploit this more. And instead of listen to community they take wotc onboard to approve their non DnD rules.

Wake up guys please!
Posted By: Nyloth Re: Constructive Listing of Diffference - 18/02/21 07:03 PM
Originally Posted by Baldurs-Gate-Fan
Don’t get me wrong.... but all the things you say have been said since months. And there are threads with dozens of pages about it where is everything explained in detail why it’s bad and tons of Suggestions how to fix it. And many of them are of tiny effort to fix.

If you watched that panel you can clearly see that larian is givin shit for the forums and feedback. We all know that height advantage is totaly OP in game and the whole combat evolves around that. And what happens? Druid is designed to even exploit this more. And instead of listen to community they take wotc onboard to approve their non DnD rules.

Wake up guys please!

OP is absolutely know this. He just creates threads like that for nothing. As far as I know, it was you Scribe who created "don't forget to leave a review in steam" thread, as if there should be more "negative" reviews. Or maybe it just looked like it idk.
Posted By: Tuco Re: Constructive Listing of Diffference - 18/02/21 07:14 PM
Originally Posted by Baldurs-Gate-Fan
We all know that height advantage is totaly OP in game and the whole combat evolves around that. And what happens? Druid is designed to even exploit this more. And instead of listen to community they take wotc onboard to approve their non DnD rules.

Wake up guys please!
Admittedly the fine tuning of rules is not the thing I care the most, but as an external observer Larian's stubbornness with this strikes me as weird because they'd have SO MANY ways to still offer a bonus/penalty for high or low ground without relying on something as heavy as ADVANTAGE.
For instance they could add a flat +1 or +2 to any roll and I don't think so many people would be mad about it, because the idea that someone with the high ground get a benefit on range attacks makes perfectly sense.

The Jump/disengage issue is completely different: that's simply stupid both in principle and execution and its consequences on the flow of the combat are devastating in ways that go beyond what would be reasonable to even predict (namely encouraging that weird leapfrog dynamic of characters jumping all around the battlefield to get a backstab/flanking or distance themselves from a melee attack).
Posted By: Scribe Re: Constructive Listing of Diffference - 18/02/21 07:36 PM
Originally Posted by Baldurs-Gate-Fan
Don’t get me wrong.... but all the things you say have been said since months. And there are threads with dozens of pages about it where is everything explained in detail why it’s bad and tons of Suggestions how to fix it. And many of them are of tiny effort to fix.

If you watched that panel you can clearly see that larian is givin shit for the forums and feedback. We all know that height advantage is totaly OP in game and the whole combat evolves around that. And what happens? Druid is designed to even exploit this more. And instead of listen to community they take wotc onboard to approve their non DnD rules.

Wake up guys please!

I don't think you understand the point of this thread.

I'm asking for a list so that I can fix things in a mod.

I've given up on Larian fixing these things, but I'm looking for help in cataloging the issues so I have a lotto work against.
Posted By: Boblawblah Re: Constructive Listing of Diffference - 18/02/21 07:38 PM
do we know just how much modding is going to be encouraged? Is there going to be a tool kit of sorts or will people just have to decompile the source code on their own?
Posted By: OcO Re: Constructive Listing of Diffference - 18/02/21 07:46 PM
Larian has stated that a modder's kit will be released eventually. Do not expect it till official game release.
Posted By: LukasPrism Re: Constructive Listing of Diffference - 18/02/21 08:04 PM
Being able to change your spell selection at any time is ridiculous. Why even bother to make players select their prepared/memorised spells when they can change them at will anyway?
Posted By: Danielbda Re: Constructive Listing of Diffference - 18/02/21 09:08 PM
Originally Posted by Kadajko
Originally Posted by Danielbda
6. Thieves also gain a second bonus action instead of second-story work, since there is no climbing, cunning action only works for Dash as Hide and disengange are bonus actions for every class, which makes the Rogue weaker in comparison.
Cunning action: Hide specially is one of the most iconic features of the class in the PnP.

You can use the second bonus action for a second off-hand attack, that's not exactly weak.
Not weak, but that's not how the Thief works in the Pnp. His second-story work and bonus sleight of hand are supposed to be used in dickish moves like hitting and climbing up a tree were an enemy can't reach you or use sleight of hand to rob an enemy of his sheated weapon. The thief in the Pnp is not a DPS class, Assassins and Swashbucklers do that, they are more about cunning and creativity.
This is an example of a fundamental mechanical change as the class plays very differently in the game compared to Pnp.
Posted By: Merry Mayhem Re: Constructive Listing of Diffference - 18/02/21 11:29 PM
I'll add something new coming in patch 4, Druid has flying creature and that not suppose to happen until level 8.

It's pretty obvious that Larian just views the rules as minor suggestions and they don't have any interest in doing then correctly.
Posted By: Kadajko Re: Constructive Listing of Diffference - 19/02/21 12:48 AM
Originally Posted by Danielbda
Not weak, but that's not how the Thief works in the Pnp. His second-story work and bonus sleight of hand are supposed to be used in dickish moves like hitting and climbing up a tree were an enemy can't reach you or use sleight of hand to rob an enemy of his sheated weapon. The thief in the Pnp is not a DPS class, Assassins and Swashbucklers do that, they are more about cunning and creativity.
This is an example of a fundamental mechanical change as the class plays very differently in the game compared to Pnp.

I totally agree, that's not how it works in PnP at all. I was just adressing this:

Originally Posted by Danielbda
Thieves also gain a second bonus action instead of second-story work, since there is no climbing, cunning action only works for Dash as Hide and disengange are bonus actions for every class, which makes the Rogue weaker in comparison.

Also thief is extremely mobile, because they can use bonus actions to dash. They can do things like:
1) Double dash and attack someone.
2) Dash in, attack and dash out.
3) Attack someone and double dash disengage.
Moving in and out of enemy threat range without attacks of opportunity.

Just all around insane mobility.
Posted By: Scribe Re: Constructive Listing of Diffference - 19/02/21 01:27 AM
Looks like we can clean (some of) this stuff up quite easily. :>

I was worried we would not be able to update the various items, but here's a Arrow of Fire, and you can see where the the Surface creation is done, and the Explode Radius.

new entry "Projectile_ArrowOfFire"
type "SpellData"
data "SpellType" "Projectile"
using "Projectile_MainHandAttack"
data "SpellProperties" "IF(not SavingThrow(Ability.Dexterity,10)):DealDamage(1d4,Fire); GROUND:SurfaceChange(Ignite); GROUND:SurfaceChange(Vaporize); GROUND:CreateSurface(2,,Fire);"
data "ExplodeRadius" "2"
data "SpellSuccess" "TARGET:DealDamage(MainRangedWeapon, MainRangedWeaponDamageType); TARGET:ExecuteWeaponFunctors(MainHand)"
data "Template" "a987eb34-3d51-42fb-ba62-d2ebfbdc58c0"
data "DisplayName" "Projectile_ArrowOfFire_DisplayName"
data "CastSound" "Proj_Arr_Cast_Arrow_Of_Fire"
data "SpellFlags" "HasHighGroundRangeExtension;RangeIgnoreVerticalThreshold;IsHarmful"

Now if I can just find where the stupid Barrels are stored, I've already found the High Ground modifiers as well, and we are getting somewhere. laugh
Posted By: Scribe Re: Constructive Listing of Diffference - 20/02/21 02:15 AM
Looks like I found it. Woohoo!

new entry "Projectile_Barrel_Explosion"
type "SpellData"
data "SpellType" "Projectile"
using "Projectile_Fireball"
data "Level" ""
data "SpellProperties" "GROUND:CreateSurface(1,,Fire);Force(3, TargetToEntity)"
data "SpellRoll" "not SavingThrow(Ability.Dexterity, 12)"
data "SpellSuccess" "DealDamage(6d6,Fire)"
data "SpellFail" "DealDamage(3d6,Fire);TARGET:IF(Item()):DealDamage(3d6,Fire)"
data "TargetConditions" "Character() or Item()"
data "Template" "c6d0a6db-72f0-4c53-8381-177c32dec188"
data "CycleConditions" "Enemy() and not Dead()"
data "UseCosts" ""
data "SpellFlags" "AddFallDamageOnLand;IsHarmful;RangeIgnoreVerticalThreshold"

new entry "Projectile_Barrel_Explosion_Smokepowder"
type "SpellData"
data "SpellType" "Projectile"
using "Projectile_Barrel_Explosion"
data "SpellProperties" "GROUND:CreateSurface(1,,Fire);Force(6, TargetToEntity)"
data "SpellSuccess" "DealDamage(3d6,Fire);DealDamage(3d6,Force)"
data "SpellFail" "DealDamage(3d6,Force)"
data "Template" "d2ada6a9-ec90-4cc5-9c8b-87160585c359"
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