Larian Studios
Posted By: Ragnarök Adult content in BG3 - 04/05/21 02:00 AM
Im through with the early access version by now, but I must ask, where is the adult content? BG3 is an inspiring game, which really could be the next big rpg. I love it already and I'm very much looking forward to the next updates, it's well done. But I really miss things which happen or don't happen depending on your actions like in Witcher 3. Witcher 3 was quite open concerning nudity and adult content, which is part of the explanation for its popularity. Of course Witcher had a lot more qualities than that, but nevertheless I really would hope that BG3 offers no less. After all Larian is no prude US company, where gore is fine but sex not. We Europeans are no prudes and Larian is located in Belgium, Europe. CD Projekt Red from Poland has set a quite high benchmark. What's your stance on this Larian? The early access version unfortunately is quite disappointing concerning adult content so far. Are you planing to add much more or are your chickening out and leave it to modders? This is an honest question, I'm really a fan of your game so far, you did a very good job, but BG3 could be much more in the rpg genre in general. It's in your hands to at least reach the standards Witcher 3 has set. There isn't much adult content so far in the game apart from the Minthara quest, which is only for very few players, who chose the "evil" path.
Posted By: Nyloth Re: Adult content in BG3 - 04/05/21 02:13 AM
First, blood and murder - this is already adult content. For images of blood, organs (the brain from the first scene), the game already increases rating. Secondly, if you are talking about sex, then Lae and Astarion scene still being worked on, I assume that they will have cutscenes similar to Minthara scene. Does that seem to be enough? This is not a porn game, you don't have to wait for a porn scene every few minutes or rude expressions like in Cyberpunk.

To be honest this is why I don't really like CD Projekt works. It is not necessary to make everything vulgar.
Posted By: Ragnarök Re: Adult content in BG3 - 04/05/21 02:26 AM
Originally Posted by Nyloth
First, blood and murder - this is already adult content. For images of blood, organs (the brain from the first scene), the game already increases rating. Secondly, if you are talking about sex, then Lae and Astarion scene still being worked on, I assume that they will have cutscenes similar to Minthara scene. Does that seem to be enough? This is not a porn game, you don't have to wait for a porn scene every few minutes or rude expressions like in Cyberpunk.

To be honest this is why I don't really like CD Projekt works. It is not necessary to make everything vulgar.

You are talking about gore mainly, not sex. Sex isn't vulgar, it's part of everyone's life and quite beautiful (or not if you belong to the approximately 2 % of asexuals). I don't want a sex scene on every corner, Witcher wasn't like that at all and I'm clearly not talking about silly porn games. Let's be reasonable here. CD Projekt did an excellent job on Witcher 3, they messed up with Cyberpunk. Check the sales of Witcher 3. You simply can't debate the overwhelming success. I very much enjoyed Witcher 3 and so did Millions! Nudity and adult content made up a significant part of this success story. There isn't a single scene in Witcher, which I consider to be vulgar except for the whore scenes. That's just low, but it's ok that these are in the game for those, who want it.
Posted By: mrfuji3 Re: Adult content in BG3 - 04/05/21 02:30 AM
1 explicit sex scene per companion + Minthara's is already too much honestly. Especially for a game that's built to be played co-op...if I play with a friend, are we expected to both watch while one of our characters gets it on with Lae'zel??
Posted By: CJMPinger Re: Adult content in BG3 - 04/05/21 02:47 AM
The game has a lot of Adult content and themes.
Just off the top of my head there is Blood, violence, murder, slaughter, slavery, racism, torture, sex (Not just with companions but there is a 'romance' between an unlikely pairing you can interrupt), drugs, the using of souls as currency, cannibalism (if you count vampirism as such), mutilation, and sex scenes with companions, and in general content that many parents would not consider suitable for their children. When you move away from some of the larianisms, a lot of this game is dark and very adult in nature. It has its... silly moments, but overall it is mature with a lot of its themes. And you could easily analyze some of them like going into the fear of the loss of self inherent with the parasite, who is also in an adult way trying to seduce you.
Posted By: Ragnarök Re: Adult content in BG3 - 04/05/21 02:50 AM
Good god, are Europeans talking right now? It's not too much in my opinion. The ea version for the time being offers a kissing scene with Shadowheart and a sex scene with Minthara. I was asking if this is going to be expanded or not. Simple as that.
Playing as a male straight character, my charcater will never ever have sex with any of the male companions, which are the majority unfortunately. Antarion is a cool npc, no doubt, interesting character, I like him, but I don't share his ideals and I have sympathies for Gale, who approves me and my character's actions the most, but still I'm not gay. The rest of the cast doesn't interest me. So nothing like that will happen in my game.
Lae definitively isn't attractive for me, being a Gith, so nothing will happen there, too. Minthara is only for those, who choose the "evil" path, which I refuse. Shadowheart is the only one my character could romance and there was just a kiss. As a sidenote Shadowheart usually isn't my type, having dark hair and no curves at all. This npc is just the only option so far.

And let's be honest the barn scene between the female Ogre and the Hobgoblin, or whatever it was, was more on the humoric side, than anything else. I had a good laugh at least, when I encountered it, sacrificing a point of Shadowheart's approval of course.
Posted By: Alexandrite Re: Adult content in BG3 - 04/05/21 02:51 AM
One sex scene is already in the game (Minthara's), the rest are still "under construction".

As for playing co-op, currently the "leader" hosting the game appears to get dibs on the scene. Yes your friend could watch if they clicked on the "ear" icon. :P
There are reputation markers in the character sheets already for the different companions to have different approval of more than one player character, but they currently appear not to be working correctly, and particular reputation-boosting scenes for second player characters are not working. (My husband and I tested this on our "evil" playthrough - the plan was he would have Minthara while I ran off with Astarion, but I had to watch his Minthara scene as I didn't get any reputation updates for my character and Astarion didn't want me! :P )
Posted By: footface Re: Adult content in BG3 - 04/05/21 02:53 AM
A game doesn't need titties to be adult.
Posted By: CJMPinger Re: Adult content in BG3 - 04/05/21 02:58 AM
Originally Posted by Ragnarök
Good god, are Europeans talking right now? It's not too much in my opinion. The ea version for the time being offers a kissing scene with Shadowheart and a sex scene with Minthara. I was asking if this is going to be expanded or not. Simple as that.
Playing as a male straight character, my charcater will never ever have sex with any of the male companions, which are the majority unfortunately. Antarion is a cool npc, no doubt, interesting character, I like him, but I don't share his ideals and I have sympathies for Gale, who approves me and my character's actions the most, but still I'm not gay. The rest of the cast doesn't interest me. So nothing like that will happen in my game.
Lae definitively isn't attractive for me, being a Gith, so nothing will happen there, too. Minthara is only for those, who choose the "evil" path, which I refuse. Shadowheart is the only one my character could romance and there was just a kiss. As a sidenote Shadowheart usually isn't my type, having dark hair and no curves at all. This npc is just the only option so far.

Not European but I don't know why it would matter if Europeans were giving input instead of Americans? And we are not arguing against adding more content, the overall statement is there is a lot of adult content and there will likely be more on its way.

Also in terms of romance, it is very likely more romanceable females will be added. It is possible Minthara will be expanded because of her popularity, and may be available for less evil players somehow. There is the datamined Halfling Werewolf in the code if you are willing to like something short and potentially furry. If you like Tiefling's, Karlach likely will be able to be romanced. Alfira and other NPCs have had a large amount of popularity and there has been requests to make them romanceable and/or addable to the party. Overall, I doubt you will be starved for options as a straight guy when EA is said and done, unless no characters vibe with you.

Edit: And you can romance the tadpole which can be designed to look however you want, so there is that, though I don't think there is a sex scene yet cause its, well, in your character's head.
Posted By: Alexandrite Re: Adult content in BG3 - 04/05/21 03:01 AM
Originally Posted by Ragnarök
The ea version for the time being offers a kissing scene with Shadowheart and a sex scene with Minthara. I was asking if this is going to be expanded or not. Simple as that.

All the 'Under Construction" signs point to yes, it will. Also there are more companions that we haven't seen yet.


Originally Posted by Ragnarök
... The rest of the cast doesn't interest me. So nothing like that will happen in my game.
Lae definitively isn't attractive for me, being a Gith, so nothing will happen there, too. Minthara is only for those, who choose the "evil" path, which I refuse. Shadowheart is the only one my character could romance and there was just a kiss. As a sidenote Shadowheart usually isn't my type, having dark hair and no curves at all. This npc is just the only option so far.

Haha, have you seen Lae'zel's response when you don't choose her? It sounds like you'd be missing out. :P
As for Shadowheart not being your type, well that sounds like your problem and not the game's problem, really. (I don't say this to be mean, just that the companions won't appeal to 100% of all players. Gale doesn't appeal to me, for example)

I'm guessing her scene will come later in the game. For Astarion and Lae'zel, I get the feeling that sex is just the beginning of their romance stories. Shadowheart not jumping into bed with the player straight away just means you'd have to wait a bit longer for your special scene, that's all. Her "first date" kiss scene as it is right now, is very sweet.

It makes sense not to have everyone's romance scenes happen at the same time but occur at different points in the game, depending on the characters involved. Not to mention we don't meet all of the companions right away, either - if none of the existing ones are your cup of tea, maybe one of the others will be.
Posted By: CJMPinger Re: Adult content in BG3 - 04/05/21 03:04 AM
Originally Posted by Alexandrite
I'm guessing her scene will come later in the game. For Astarion and Lae'zel, I get the feeling that sex is just the beginning of their romance stories. Shadowheart not jumping into bed with the player straight away just means you'd have to wait a bit longer for your special scene, that's all. It makes sense not to have everyone's romance scenes happen at the same time but occur at different points in the game, depending on the characters involved. Not to mention we don't meet all of the companions right away, either - if none of the existing ones are your cup of tea, maybe one of the others will be.

Waiting often can be good for the writing of something, and for Shadowheart I think the kiss is way more symbolic than a full nights sex. Cause sex for her is for flings, while a kiss may be way more.
Heck, it actually might be cool for there to be a sexless romance in the game. (Obviously not with Shadowheart cause she does mention having lovers...) Like something that is clearly a romance, with all the love and character/relationship development, but for whatever reason there isn't any actual sex. Perhaps because there can't be. I just think it could be an interesting thing from a story perspective, like a romanceable Warforged or something like that.
Posted By: Alexandrite Re: Adult content in BG3 - 04/05/21 03:34 AM
Originally Posted by CJMPinger
Waiting often can be good for the writing of something, and for Shadowheart I think the kiss is way more symbolic than a full nights sex. Cause sex for her is for flings, while a kiss may be way more.

Exactly! She strikes me as a character that will be worth waiting for, I think. smile

I can't wait to see how all of the companions' personal quests/stories unfold.
Posted By: Boblawblah Re: Adult content in BG3 - 04/05/21 03:57 AM
Oh good, the "Americans are prudes, Euros are all about the sexy sexy" thread smile
Posted By: Ragnarök Re: Adult content in BG3 - 04/05/21 04:29 AM
Originally Posted by CJMPinger
Not European but I don't know why it would matter if Europeans were giving input instead of Americans?

Actually it matters, because Europeans tend to be a lot less prude than Americans. Gore is ok, but sex isn't, that's what US gaming companies and even movies are like in general and it tells us a lot about American mentality. I don't want to sound anti-american here, because I'm not, although this sentiment exists in Europe. And postings of Americans in this very thread, seem to corroborate the usual "gore = ok, sex = no-go" prejudice, us Europeans have about Americans. Just saying... In Europe it's usually different and pretty much contrary, gore isn't considered to be ok, but sex between adults is no problem at all.

Originally Posted by CJMPinger
And we are not arguing against adding more content, the overall statement is there is a lot of adult content and there will likely be more on its way. Also in terms of romance, it is very likely more romanceable females will be added.

Hopefully!

Originally Posted by CJMPinger
Edit: And you can romance the tadpole which can be designed to look however you want, so there is that, though I don't think there is a sex scene yet cause its, well, in your character's head.

That's a problem actually because the npc you've created during character creation is just an illusion by Illithids. It's nothing more than a cruel mindfuck trick. It's very much unfortunate, because the player knows this and therefore this isn't a real option, although you can create your dream girl. Personally I created a stunning human blonde woman, although I'm missing different body options in BG3 so far. But it's just a dream, nothing real and will only put your character on a downwards spiral into becoming an Illithid yourself. I hoped that she would appear as a real npc later on, not just as a mind flayer illusion.

Originally Posted by Alexandrite
Haha, have you seen Lae'zel's response when you don't choose her? It sounds like you'd be missing out. :P
As for Shadowheart not being your type, well that sounds like your problem and not the game's problem, really. (I don't say this to be mean, just that the companions won't appeal to 100% of all players. Gale doesn't appeal to me, for example)

Lae isn't attractive at all for me. Therefore I didn't miss out anything. She even seems to be cringe clingy by trying to make the player jealous by telling him, that she will spent the night with Antarion, since he [the player] already promised the night to the elven woman [Shadowheart]. From a roleplaying perspective it’s cool and funny, but it makes Lae even less attractive, than she already is.
Most players will only consider a human, elven or half-elven woman to be attractive and Larian surely knows this, having complained already about the fact, that most players created a character which looks like working in a bank institute. But still then so be it, most players don't want to play freaks despite the options the game is offering during character creation, but a handsome hero. Work with it!
Sure, there won't be a character which is appealing to everyone, except for the dream girl during character creation, but she isn't a real option, if you don't want to succumb into becoming an illithid yourself.
A lot of people complain about Shadowheart's personality by the way, which excludes her for many to be a viable romance option. It's not just me, although I don't consider her to be attractive on top of her personality, which I have problems with. She is just the only option so far, the lesser evil if you want to put it that way, but not a really appealing one, which of course is due to my personal optical taste in women. It would be very sad if she stayed the only half-way viable option. But I'm also sure, that I'm not the only one, not being into dark haired non-curvy women. Witcher 3 offered us options every man could dream about, so far BG3 just offers Shadowheart, which is just mediocre at best.
Tieflings don't interest me, too. I'm not into horns growing out of one's head and tails out of their bottoms. I like those races being in the game of course, it's part of the DD universe, but I don't consider them as viable romance options for my character. If Larian only offers us freaks as romance options, so be it, but then romance won't happen in my game and it will be a big disappointment, not only for me, but for many. (Again keep in mind that most players play a handsome character themselves, the bank employee type, as Larian called it). Why there can't be at least one "normal" option, where most men would say: "yay!"

Originally Posted by Alexandrite
I'm guessing her scene will come later in the game. For Astarion and Lae'zel, I get the feeling that sex is just the beginning of their romance stories. Shadowheart not jumping into bed with the player straight away just means you'd have to wait a bit longer for your special scene, that's all. Her "first date" kiss scene as it is right now, is very sweet.

Maybe it’s expanded in the future and gets more interesting. Right now it’s just like some silly teenager’s romance.

Originally Posted by Boblawblah
Oh good, the "Americans are prudes, Euros are all about the sexy sexy" thread smile

You didn't prove to be the exception to the rule... ;-)
Posted By: Alexandrite Re: Adult content in BG3 - 04/05/21 05:41 AM
Technically speaking, while female players have three attractive male romance options to choose from (Astarion, Gale and Wyll), the straight men do have Shadowheart, Lae'zel and Minthara, so the playing field is actually pretty even!

If people want to limit their play style to only what they normally play, that's fine if that's how you want to play your game. But it's not really fair to then say "there aren't enough options" when THERE ARE, in fact all of the companions so far are romanceable in whatever way/gender/sexuality you wish to play. (general "you" here.) If you wish to limit your experience of the game then that is a choice you make, that's not because the game hasn't provided enough attractive choices.

For example, I normally play a neutral-good character, and that was what my first play-through started off as - then my Tiefling Druid saw Astarion and her choices in the story (to raise his approval, of course) leaned to the darker/chaotic side, which was also fun to roleplay. I still went through the game as a mostly-good-but-snarky persona, and didn't miss any of the quests while romancing Astarion because his occasional disapproval doesn't mean too much if he approves of me overall. You don't have to become a slave to your choice of companion romance and do EVERYTHING to please them - that's not how real life works, either.

My second attempt at a playthrough was to romance Gale - for science, since I don't personally find him attractive, but I wanted to try experiencing this other romance in the story. Unfortunately, the Weave scene completely failed to trigger for me, so I gave up (for now). I'll probably try that playthrough again in a future patch once they fix the conversation triggers a bit.

Another playthrough I had on the side was an "evil path" playthrough in multiplayer with my husband (2 original characters, 2 companions), which we both felt was so wrong in so many ways (especially after playing a Tiefling Druid!!!), but again it was just to EXPERIENCE the game from this other perspective. (Also some of the interactions with the companions were a bit eye-opening, going through the "evil path" after playing "good", as they turned to the dark side along with us.)
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Adult content in BG3 - 04/05/21 08:40 AM
Originally Posted by Ragnarök
Originally Posted by Alexandrite
I'm guessing her scene will come later in the game. For Astarion and Lae'zel, I get the feeling that sex is just the beginning of their romance stories. Shadowheart not jumping into bed with the player straight away just means you'd have to wait a bit longer for your special scene, that's all. Her "first date" kiss scene as it is right now, is very sweet.
Maybe it’s expanded in the future and gets more interesting. Right now it’s just like some silly teenager’s romance.
Well, shadow is kinda silly teenager ...
I believe its only right that some companions are a bit more reserved than others, it makes them more believable. :-/
Posted By: fallenj Re: Adult content in BG3 - 04/05/21 08:42 AM
Originally Posted by Nyloth
First, blood and murder - this is already adult content. For images of blood, organs (the brain from the first scene), the game already increases rating. Secondly, if you are talking about sex, then Lae and Astarion scene still being worked on, I assume that they will have cutscenes similar to Minthara scene. Does that seem to be enough? This is not a porn game, you don't have to wait for a porn scene every few minutes or rude expressions like in Cyberpunk.

To be honest this is why I don't really like CD Projekt works. It is not necessary to make everything vulgar.

Actually the only area in the game that seems relatively dark is the first couple rooms in the intro. The rest of the game came off as PG13 (haven't fully done swamp or touched underdark).

I was actually thinking the game would be more of how that was before I picked it up.
Posted By: Aishaddai Re: Adult content in BG3 - 04/05/21 02:04 PM
To me the game is not dark or adult. Their are some society themes, but I don't by default consider them mature. The quality in writing has more to do with maturity than anything.

A kid can bleed and fight in school from bullies and will always find porn around puberty whether you like it or not. Not to mention, at least when I was in school, biology classes start early and are mandatory. Its how things are handled that marks maturity. I think the same concept can be applied to stories. It's not the theme, but how an individual handles the theme.

As for sex, lets not pretend Laezel and especially Minthara are options for normal straight dudes. They are both specific niche fetish's. So let's not go there. Only Shadowheart so far is an option and she is not a swiss army knive of romance. Lol. Not that I'd want her to be.

In highschool I use to tutor at a couple of schools. The elementary schools kids were nastier and more knowledge-able than most adults, but lacked understanding in how to handle most things. Oftentimes I find older people the same way. Only difference is school is now Company or Firm and people are a lot less brave.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Adult content in BG3 - 04/05/21 03:52 PM
Originally Posted by fallenj
Actually the only area in the game that seems relatively dark is the first couple rooms in the intro. The rest of the game came off as PG13 (haven't fully done swamp or touched underdark).

I was actually thinking the game would be more of how that was before I picked it up.
You didnt visited Goblin camp yet, did you?
Posted By: Ragnarök Re: Adult content in BG3 - 04/05/21 04:31 PM
Originally Posted by Aishaddai
As for sex, lets not pretend Laezel and especially Minthara are options for normal straight dudes. They are both specific niche fetish's. So let's not go there. Only Shadowheart so far is an option and she is not a swiss army knive of romance. Lol. Not that I'd want her to be.

Exactly, thank you!
Posted By: Nyloth Re: Adult content in BG3 - 04/05/21 05:01 PM
Originally Posted by Ragnarök
Originally Posted by Nyloth
First, blood and murder - this is already adult content. For images of blood, organs (the brain from the first scene), the game already increases rating. Secondly, if you are talking about sex, then Lae and Astarion scene still being worked on, I assume that they will have cutscenes similar to Minthara scene. Does that seem to be enough? This is not a porn game, you don't have to wait for a porn scene every few minutes or rude expressions like in Cyberpunk.

To be honest this is why I don't really like CD Projekt works. It is not necessary to make everything vulgar.

You are talking about gore mainly, not sex. Sex isn't vulgar, it's part of everyone's life and quite beautiful (or not if you belong to the approximately 2 % of asexuals). I don't want a sex scene on every corner, Witcher wasn't like that at all and I'm clearly not talking about silly porn games. Let's be reasonable here. CD Projekt did an excellent job on Witcher 3, they messed up with Cyberpunk. Check the sales of Witcher 3. You simply can't debate the overwhelming success. I very much enjoyed Witcher 3 and so did Millions! Nudity and adult content made up a significant part of this success story. There isn't a single scene in Witcher, which I consider to be vulgar except for the whore scenes. That's just low, but it's ok that these are in the game for those, who want it.

About The Witcher 3 ... Every NPC girl treats the main character as if he is the center of the planet, everyone wanted him and made it clear. I'm not talking about 18+ scenes right now, I'm just talking about what it looks like. It's bad. It was unpleasant for me to see that even a random merchant for some reason want this man-mutant who is described as something.. bad. In the book ofc...


Originally Posted by Aishaddai
To me the game is not dark or adult. Their are some society themes, but I don't by default consider them mature. The quality in writing has more to do with maturity than anything.

A kid can bleed and fight in school from bullies and will always find porn around puberty whether you like it or not. Not to mention, at least when I was in school, biology classes start early and are mandatory. Its how things are handled that marks maturity. I think the same concept can be applied to stories. It's not the theme, but how an individual handles the theme.

As for sex, lets not pretend Laezel and especially Minthara are options for normal straight dudes. They are both specific niche fetish's. So let's not go there. Only Shadowheart so far is an option and she is not a swiss army knive of romance. Lol. Not that I'd want her to be.

In highschool I use to tutor at a couple of schools. The elementary schools kids were nastier and more knowledge-able than most adults, but lacked understanding in how to handle most things. Oftentimes I find older people the same way. Only difference is school is now Company or Firm and people are a lot less brave.

I understand what you say about Lae, but I don't understand what's specific in Minthara. Apparently, she already has a fanclub. If she doesn't suit you as a person, it doesn't mean that there is something repulsive about her appearance.

It is not necessary to add sex to every romance. I think a romantic moment like Shadow's kiss really for her personality, and there's nothing wrong with that. Game still has enough sex, violence, and blood.
Posted By: dwig Re: Adult content in BG3 - 04/05/21 05:20 PM
I don't know why every RPG has to have a companion dating sim component.
Posted By: Pandemonica Re: Adult content in BG3 - 04/05/21 06:29 PM
Originally Posted by Nyloth
About The Witcher 3 ... Every NPC girl treats the main character as if he is the center of the planet, everyone wanted him and made it clear. I'm not talking about 18+ scenes right now, I'm just talking about what it looks like. It's bad. It was unpleasant for me to see that even a random merchant for some reason want this man-mutant who is described as something.. bad. In the book ofc...

Gotta disagree with you there Nyloth, there is a crap load of women that you interact with in W3 that despise Geralt, or are disgusted by him for being a mutant. Besides maybe in taverns, brothels, and women he rescues or protects. But he is not like James Bond where every woman he meets in game has an exploding uterus and just wants to jump him. Well besides sorceresses, besides Philippa I think he has had sex with all of them.
Posted By: Ragnarök Re: Adult content in BG3 - 04/05/21 07:04 PM
Originally Posted by Nyloth
Originally Posted by Ragnarök
Originally Posted by Nyloth
First, blood and murder - this is already adult content. For images of blood, organs (the brain from the first scene), the game already increases rating. Secondly, if you are talking about sex, then Lae and Astarion scene still being worked on, I assume that they will have cutscenes similar to Minthara scene. Does that seem to be enough? This is not a porn game, you don't have to wait for a porn scene every few minutes or rude expressions like in Cyberpunk.

To be honest this is why I don't really like CD Projekt works. It is not necessary to make everything vulgar.

You are talking about gore mainly, not sex. Sex isn't vulgar, it's part of everyone's life and quite beautiful (or not if you belong to the approximately 2 % of asexuals). I don't want a sex scene on every corner, Witcher wasn't like that at all and I'm clearly not talking about silly porn games. Let's be reasonable here. CD Projekt did an excellent job on Witcher 3, they messed up with Cyberpunk. Check the sales of Witcher 3. You simply can't debate the overwhelming success. I very much enjoyed Witcher 3 and so did Millions! Nudity and adult content made up a significant part of this success story. There isn't a single scene in Witcher, which I consider to be vulgar except for the whore scenes. That's just low, but it's ok that these are in the game for those, who want it.

About The Witcher 3 ... Every NPC girl treats the main character as if he is the center of the planet, everyone wanted him and made it clear. I'm not talking about 18+ scenes right now, I'm just talking about what it looks like. It's bad. It was unpleasant for me to see that even a random merchant for some reason want this man-mutant who is described as something.. bad. In the book ofc...

I understand what you say about Lae, but I don't understand what's specific in Minthara. Apparently, she already has a fanclub. If she doesn't suit you as a person, it doesn't mean that there is something repulsive about her appearance.

It is not necessary to add sex to every romance. I think a romantic moment like Shadow's kiss really for her personality, and there's nothing wrong with that. Game still has enough sex, violence, and blood.

Your statement about Geralt is fairly reasonable, but it’s your personal opinion. He is a special guy, with this aura of dangerousness about him, having a trained fit body and the many scars might add to this, too and having a quite unique personality and being intelligent on top. So there are surely a lot of women who find him to be attractive, despite him being an unfertile mutant with white hair and yellow eyes - not every woman of course. Maybe the figure of Geralt being unfertile even adds to the willingness of some women being open to a short-lived sexual encounter with him, since they don’t have to worry about an unwanted pregnancy. I mean there are situations in rl, too, f.e. after a broken long term relationship, where you aren’t open for another real love and to settle down or start a family right away, but instead just want to enjoy single life for some time. Geralt in general isn’t the type to settle down with anyway. So I don’t share your perspective here, that Witcher 3 in general exaggerated short-lived sexual encounters. These exist in real life, too, and in my opinion they did a good job incorporating these into the game in a reasonable way. For me it enriched the overall gaming experience. As a sidenote rejections to Geralt's flirty advances also happen in Witcher 3.
Also the Netflix series Witcher which casted Henry Cavill, who is doing an excellent job in portraying Geralt, shows that Geralt actually is considered to be attractive for many women. Other women might find him disgusting, which is ok, too of course.

I can’t answer for @Aishaddai. I just can add my 2 cents.
Most men take the looks of a person as entrance ticket, while the personality of that person decides, if you want to stay or leave eventually. Personal tastes are different and vary greatly. Still most won’t consider Giths or Tieflings to be attractive. Minthara is only for those, who take the “evil” path, which excludes her for many to begin with. And still the racial features of drow might not be considered to be attractive, too, by some. This has got nothing to do with racism, it’s just personal taste. If you have a weakness for white redheads or Asian women or Latinas or whatever else for example, you might not consider Minthara to be attractive. This is just an example. So for most straight dudes with a more “common” taste, Shadowheart is the only option so far and maybe even just the lesser evil, if you want to enjoy a heterosexual romance during your play through. This is quite underwhelming so far for a game like BG3, which is supposed to be the next big AAA rpg game, I think.

This whole thread is meant as constructive criticism by the way, because I enjoyed BG3 so far very much, I just missed some more options for players with a more “common” taste and spoke about my fear, that there might be too much censorship concerning the display of nudity or sexual acts, which are part of the game. Again I’m clearly not suggesting hardcore scenes or porn-like stuff. That’s why I referred to CD Projekt Red’s Witcher 3, which did it just about right in my opinion. For you they overdid it, that’s perfectly ok, many others, including myself, were happy about the way CD Projekt Red managed this. I just hope, that Larian will find a good balance, too, concerning adult content.

Originally Posted by dwig
I don't know why every RPG has to have a companion dating sim component.

Because it became a standard many years ago, that some npcs in rpgs are romanceable and the overall majority of players enjoy and appreciate this.
Posted By: Aishaddai Re: Adult content in BG3 - 04/05/21 07:10 PM
@Nyloth fetish's by nature have fan clubs so I don't know what your point is on that. What traits do you think a guy would want that Minthara has? A voice that sounds like 20 years of smoking with a dom attitude? Not even loyal in most cases. That's a specific fetish. Not trying to jump on you. This is just the blunt answer to save you some time and cut out the bs.

Personally I enjoy personality more than physicality, though if she looks rough I'll lose interest no question, in rpg's and Laezel and Minthara are not desirable. Shadowheart is just ok. Laezel at least has potential compared to Minthara, but I really doubt Larian will take her in the direction I'd like. I like Laezel to be part of the unification faction of gith or just a rebel against lich girl. Though for the latter, if ever, it would be an ending rather than a current state of being knowing Larian which would defeat the point for me. Larian is too big on dom and submissiveness so I don't even bother. I'm more of an assertive kind of guy.

The journey is the cake and the ending is the chery on top. I like journeys to be fun and not wait for an ending paragraph and picture saying "their better now, the end".

Oh and for sex scenes a fade to black is good enough for me. Maybe light scenes like DA Origins. More than that is not necessary for me personally.
Posted By: dwig Re: Adult content in BG3 - 04/05/21 08:28 PM
Originally Posted by Ragnarök
Originally Posted by dwig
I don't know why every RPG has to have a companion dating sim component.

Because it became a standard many years ago, that some npcs in rpgs are romanceable and the overall majority of players enjoy and appreciate this.

Its fine when it is done well. However, when it is a required part of every RPG then it becomes something that is often NOT done well. For that reason I would rather it just be left out most of the time. The scene at the party where you finally get with a companion is utter cringe and the game would definitely be better without it.

Put in the time to do it right or don't do it at all. Don't just put in a bad scene so that you can advertise romanceable companions.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Adult content in BG3 - 04/05/21 09:40 PM
Honestly, just do without sex in the game. You might appeal to more audiences if you avoid it. I almost didn't buy the game because it was advertised as having it.

Either that or make it less blatant. If players want to pursue naughty scenes, make it so THEY have to pursue it, not characters soliciting the main.
Posted By: Alexandrite Re: Adult content in BG3 - 04/05/21 09:42 PM
Romance, love and sex are all part of the human experience, so of course they are part of our fantasy stories as well. By leaving them out, you'd leave out an important narrative element in a story. That's not to say it can't be done, and done well (Lord of the Rings is one of the greatest fantasy stories ever written, and it's centered on friendship not romance, its romantic subplots are off on the sidelines). But I for one enjoy the romantic element in RPGs like this, because when you're in an extraordinary situation with extraordinary characters, it's only natural your character may be attracted to one of the people you're adventuring with, and it's natural for a story to want to explore that aspect. It makes me feel more involved in the story.

Originally Posted by dwig
Put in the time to do it right or don't do it at all. Don't just put in a bad scene so that you can advertise romanceable companions.

Why is it a bad scene? We only have the companion conversations at the moment, not even any of the companion sex scenes.

For me, the party fling makes sense story-wise. These people have been implanted with an alien tadpole against their will, have been through hell and back (literally), have been thrown together into an extraordinary situation, and haven't had a moment's rest from all the fighting. Finally, something goes right for them, they save a bunch of people, and get to unwind and forget their problems just for a night in a nice atmosphere. Well OF COURSE some of them are horny. :P Sex is, after all, a natural human behaviour, the party is a good excuse to explore that as part of the story, and each of the companions' scenes reveals something about them as well.
Posted By: dwig Re: Adult content in BG3 - 04/05/21 09:52 PM
Originally Posted by Alexandrite
Originally Posted by dwig
Put in the time to do it right or don't do it at all. Don't just put in a bad scene so that you can advertise romanceable companions.

Why is it a bad scene? We only have the companion conversations at the moment, not even any of the companion sex scenes.

For me, the party fling makes sense story-wise. These people have been implanted with an alien tadpole against their will, have been through hell and back (literally), have been thrown together into an extraordinary situation, and haven't had a moment's rest from all the fighting. Finally, something goes right for them, they save a bunch of people, and get to unwind and forget their problems just for a night in a nice atmosphere. Well OF COURSE some of them are horny. :P Sex is, after all, a natural human behaviour, the party is a good excuse to explore that as part of the story, and each of the companions' scenes reveals something about them as well.

In theory, it does make sense story wise. However, the presentation is poor. They all focus on trying to get with me. It would make sense if some were interested in me and others were interested in each other instead. At the very least, some basic flirting should be required (and if it is NOT done then they will mercifully leave you alone). The party as it is serves as a very stark reminder that I am playing a video game rather than interacting with real people.

This also ties into the fact that I dislike player-sexual companions in general.
Posted By: Alexandrite Re: Adult content in BG3 - 04/05/21 10:11 PM
Originally Posted by dwig
It would make sense if some were interested in me and others were interested in each other instead.

Well, you are the player, the hero of the story, so of course they're all interested in you - well, depending on their reputation. Not all of them were interested in me in my playthroughs.
And Lae'zel happily goes off with either Wyll or Astarion (depending on who you're romancing). Although she is not too happy about Wyll afterwards. haha!
Posted By: Pandemonica Re: Adult content in BG3 - 04/05/21 10:42 PM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Honestly, just do without sex in the game. You might appeal to more audiences if you avoid it. I almost didn't buy the game because it was advertised as having it.

Either that or make it less blatant. If players want to pursue naughty scenes, make it so THEY have to pursue it, not characters soliciting the main.

Trust me, you are the minority audience when it comes to this stuff. It is widely, WIDELY wanted in a RPG to have romances and romance scenes. No one forces you to participate in it, you can easily choose not to accept it.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Adult content in BG3 - 04/05/21 11:09 PM
Romance is not sex. I like a video game with romance, but I like a Revan/ Bastilla romance from KOTOR, not a porno Shades of Grey sex nastiness. BG1 and 2 did it tastefully. Other video games in the genre do too. So should BG3.

And just because sex sells doesn't mean it is the only audience. I know plenty of people who would play more games like BG3 if they weren't nasty. Not all Christians are fantasy haters, but people like me have spouses, and we don't want or need this in a game and neither do our spouses.

That said. I get that sex sells. Im just saying that it shouldn't be so in people's faces with characters soliciting you, ALL of them, during a celebration event even when it doesn't make sense.

I'm just saying let the player pursue and don't throw it in our faces. If you want naughtiness and the devs are willing to give it to you, that's all you. I just don't like it especially when it is so in your face.
Posted By: Pandemonica Re: Adult content in BG3 - 04/05/21 11:58 PM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Romance is not sex. I like a video game with romance, but I like a Revan/ Bastilla romance from KOTOR, not a porno Shades of Grey sex nastiness. BG1 and 2 did it tastefully. Other video games in the genre do too. So should BG3.

And just because sex sells doesn't mean it is the only audience. I know plenty of people who would play more games like BG3 if they weren't nasty. Not all Christians are fantasy haters, but people like me have spouses, and we don't want or need this in a game and neither do our spouses.

That said. I get that sex sells. Im just saying that it shouldn't be so in people's faces with characters soliciting you, ALL of them, during a celebration event even when it doesn't make sense.

I'm just saying let the player pursue and don't throw it in our faces. If you want naughtiness and the devs are willing to give it to you, that's all you. I just don't like it especially when it is so in your face.

Oh I agree the way it was implemented with basically every companion wanting to jump you at the party is ham fisted, and just plain bad writing and character development. I mean there was such drama with the Leliana/Morrigan in DA:O it was awesome how that all came about in that game. I am more for the Warden/Morrigan romance, but the Bastilla one was epic in KOTOR. In BG3 I think that whole thing at the party is just straight up removed for quality control purposes. I just don't have a issue with a game rated for 18+ having a saucier sex scene.
Posted By: fallenj Re: Adult content in BG3 - 05/05/21 12:03 AM
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by fallenj
Actually the only area in the game that seems relatively dark is the first couple rooms in the intro. The rest of the game came off as PG13 (haven't fully done swamp or touched underdark).

I was actually thinking the game would be more of how that was before I picked it up.
You didnt visited Goblin camp yet, did you?

I did, just a munch of destroyed junk.

edit* now that I think of it, there was the whole gnoll cut scene and area.
Posted By: Nyloth Re: Adult content in BG3 - 05/05/21 12:09 AM
Originally Posted by Aishaddai
@Nyloth fetish's by nature have fan clubs so I don't know what your point is on that. What traits do you think a guy would want that Minthara has? A voice that sounds like 20 years of smoking with a dom attitude? Not even loyal in most cases. That's a specific fetish. Not trying to jump on you. This is just the blunt answer to save you some time and cut out the bs.

Personally I enjoy personality more than physicality, though if she looks rough I'll lose interest no question, in rpg's and Laezel and Minthara are not desirable. Shadowheart is just ok. Laezel at least has potential compared to Minthara, but I really doubt Larian will take her in the direction I'd like. I like Laezel to be part of the unification faction of gith or just a rebel against lich girl. Though for the latter, if ever, it would be an ending rather than a current state of being knowing Larian which would defeat the point for me. Larian is too big on dom and submissiveness so I don't even bother. I'm more of an assertive kind of guy.

The journey is the cake and the ending is the chery on top. I like journeys to be fun and not wait for an ending paragraph and picture saying "their better now, the end".

Oh and for sex scenes a fade to black is good enough for me. Maybe light scenes like DA Origins. More than that is not necessary for me personally.

But it is not specific, it is more a matter of taste. I mean, Lae's face is literally alien, and it can really be a kind of "fetish", but I won't say that about Minthara. Do you guys call a girl a "fetish" just because she has a rough voice? Rude.

Anyway, I'm sure Larian will still add interesting female companions.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Adult content in BG3 - 05/05/21 01:06 AM
I've played games with naughty content in the game, but I won't play one where the sex stuff is too in your face. So far, at least they give you a choice. At least they don't just throw naked characters at me. I sincerely hope they keep it that way for the rest of the game. I can even handle them keeping the celebration scene stuff, though I do think it is too forced and completely NOT romantic. It is just like, "Let's throw in sex scenes just to throw them in." No teasing or flirting or anything.

Jeez. If I was into sex scenes in games I'd be very disappointed. There isn't even foreplay. It's just, "Hey. Wanna do it?"
Posted By: CJMPinger Re: Adult content in BG3 - 05/05/21 01:08 AM
Originally Posted by fallenj
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by fallenj
Actually the only area in the game that seems relatively dark is the first couple rooms in the intro. The rest of the game came off as PG13 (haven't fully done swamp or touched underdark).

I was actually thinking the game would be more of how that was before I picked it up.
You didnt visited Goblin camp yet, did you?

I did, just a munch of destroyed junk.

edit* now that I think of it, there was the whole gnoll cut scene and area.

There are a lot of dead bodies, goblins eating dead adventurers, goblin children kicking a dead body (and I THINK you can kill those kids), the whole kicking people into a spider pit, animal cruelty with the owlbear cub, slavery, torture, and in general things that would keep the game's rating Mature and other area's equivalents of Mature.

With the Gnoll, if you got the symbol of the absolute you can make her eat the Zhents, eat her own pack, and then make her eat herself (though due to my like of gnolls I'd rather somehow recruit her with the tadpole).

You can doublecross the Zhentarim which actually leads to the guy you are doublecrossing them with being captured, tortured, and then executed.

You can pick the evil side and slaughter the tieflings. You can also murder people and then try to speak with their corpses.

And worst of all, you can be a dick to the dog.

Overall there are fairly dark and bloody parts of the game. Further on in the swamp there is the Hag which is a very typical hag with her basement of people she has "helped".
Posted By: Aishaddai Re: Adult content in BG3 - 05/05/21 01:34 AM
Originally Posted by Nyloth
Originally Posted by Aishaddai
@Nyloth fetish's by nature have fan clubs so I don't know what your point is on that. What traits do you think a guy would want that Minthara has? A voice that sounds like 20 years of smoking with a dom attitude? Not even loyal in most cases. That's a specific fetish. Not trying to jump on you. This is just the blunt answer to save you some time and cut out the bs.

Personally I enjoy personality more than physicality, though if she looks rough I'll lose interest no question, in rpg's and Laezel and Minthara are not desirable. Shadowheart is just ok. Laezel at least has potential compared to Minthara, but I really doubt Larian will take her in the direction I'd like. I like Laezel to be part of the unification faction of gith or just a rebel against lich girl. Though for the latter, if ever, it would be an ending rather than a current state of being knowing Larian which would defeat the point for me. Larian is too big on dom and submissiveness so I don't even bother. I'm more of an assertive kind of guy.

The journey is the cake and the ending is the chery on top. I like journeys to be fun and not wait for an ending paragraph and picture saying "their better now, the end".

Oh and for sex scenes a fade to black is good enough for me. Maybe light scenes like DA Origins. More than that is not necessary for me personally.

But it is not specific, it is more a matter of taste. I mean, Lae's face is literally alien, and it can really be a kind of "fetish", but I won't say that about Minthara. Do you guys call a girl a "fetish" just because she has a rough voice? Rude.

Anyway, I'm sure Larian will still add interesting female companions.

I feel like you are just skimming what I type. So I'll just leave it at that.
Posted By: footface Re: Adult content in BG3 - 05/05/21 01:41 AM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
I can even handle them keeping the celebration scene stuff, though I do think it is too forced and completely NOT romantic. It is just like, "Let's throw in sex scenes just to throw them in." No teasing or flirting or anything.

Jeez. If I was into sex scenes in games I'd be very disappointed. There isn't even foreplay. It's just, "Hey. Wanna do it?"

I haven't played through all of the romances. I can't trigger gales. I've triggered Laezels, buy haven't followed through. I don't care about Wyll.

Shadowhearts romance is great. I love the fact that you can only go so far as a kiss. It's a nice departure from typical game to that go from zero to sex. I found the whole scene very sweet.

Then you have Astarion and Laezel, who proposition you for casual sex. Seems in line for the characters, and the timing seems right.

With Wyll, your character seems to be the one to bring up sex, and yes, it does seem very direct. Like I've said, I haven't tried Wyll, but that's the way it seems.

Idk what you mean about things being unflirty. Laezel is the only one who's like "let's fuck NOW.". Shadowhearts scene is filled with tender moments and subtext, and Astarions scene has a TON of flirting. As for the foreplay, that scene is under construction. We'll have to see how it plays out in the final game
Posted By: CJMPinger Re: Adult content in BG3 - 05/05/21 02:22 AM
Originally Posted by footface
Originally Posted by GM4Him
I can even handle them keeping the celebration scene stuff, though I do think it is too forced and completely NOT romantic. It is just like, "Let's throw in sex scenes just to throw them in." No teasing or flirting or anything.

Jeez. If I was into sex scenes in games I'd be very disappointed. There isn't even foreplay. It's just, "Hey. Wanna do it?"

I haven't played through all of the romances. I can't trigger gales. I've triggered Laezels, buy haven't followed through. I don't care about Wyll.

Shadowhearts romance is great. I love the fact that you can only go so far as a kiss. It's a nice departure from typical game to that go from zero to sex. I found the whole scene very sweet.

Then you have Astarion and Laezel, who proposition you for casual sex. Seems in line for the characters, and the timing seems right.

With Wyll, your character seems to be the one to bring up sex, and yes, it does seem very direct. Like I've said, I haven't tried Wyll, but that's the way it seems.

Idk what you mean about things being unflirty. Laezel is the only one who's like "let's fuck NOW.". Shadowhearts scene is filled with tender moments and subtext, and Astarions scene has a TON of flirting. As for the foreplay, that scene is under construction. We'll have to see how it plays out in the final game

Even for Laezel it kinda makes sense, for she would have a gith view on sex it it may just be that casual and direct for them. I think when other companions are added, the more good and neutral ones, things will balance out and the writing will hopefully get a bit more balanced.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Adult content in BG3 - 05/05/21 02:49 AM
I'm referring more to how there is no real romance before the party and then all at once it's like BAM.

I get Lae'zel and Astarion. I also never triggered Gale's. Honestly, I could have triggered romance with Shadowheart but feared some steamy scene. So knowing they aren't all that way is better. Wyll's convo was creepy to me. I got total bro vibes from him and then, "Let's bunk."

But ultimately it feels forced because like I said, all at once. If Shadowheart maybe wanted to meet alone to share her secret, and have a romantic interlude, Astarion maybe tried to tease if you let him bite you, little moments of romance throughout, that would make more sense.
Posted By: Pandemonica Re: Adult content in BG3 - 05/05/21 02:54 AM
Originally Posted by footface
Idk what you mean about things being unflirty. Laezel is the only one who's like "let's fuck NOW.". Shadowhearts scene is filled with tender moments and subtext, and Astarions scene has a TON of flirting. As for the foreplay, that scene is under construction. We'll have to see how it plays out in the final game

Personally, I think before the romance triggers for any character, or the start of it as I am assuming is the point of the party scene, you should have to trigger a couple "flirt" conversation options during gameplay. DA:O did that, and that game is probably a gold standard for me personally for companion progression. It is just jarring, not having any interest in other companions, then all of a sudden that night (maybe one of those damn tieflings dumped some spanish fly in the beer) every companion wants to jump you for bare minimal approval. Minimal meaning nothing more than story progression choices.

The scenes themselves, or what they have available are very well done. Nothing too saucy from what you can see in a rated R movie. I mean the Minthara one was great, the Shadow one was wholesome (which I think she is meant for the main female relationship storyline I am guessing) and the Astarion one I am sure got all those goth, vampire lovers full of joy. Lae'zel I haven't gotten to pop yet, though I saw it on YT and it was fitting for her character.

I am just glad that Larian has displayed some nerve to include a more adult scene in the game. I guess that is a perk to a European developer.
Posted By: footface Re: Adult content in BG3 - 05/05/21 02:55 AM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
But ultimately it feels forced because like I said, all at once. If Shadowheart maybe wanted to meet alone to share her secret, and have a romantic interlude, Astarion maybe tried to tease if you let him bite you, little moments of romance throughout, that would make more sense.

I'm pretty sure that's how it is. Shadowhearts wants to meet alone, but specifically she does so to bond, just the two of you.

During Astarions scene, I had the option to offer him my neck or trust him not to bite me.
Posted By: Aazo Re: Adult content in BG3 - 05/05/21 05:40 AM
Originally Posted by Alexandrite
Technically speaking, while female players have three attractive male romance options to choose from (Astarion, Gale and Wyll), the straight men do have Shadowheart, Lae'zel and Minthara, so the playing field is actually pretty even!

As a male I would have to differ in opinion here.... The three female options are just not that attractive at all. Laezel is like a 2.5 , Shadowhart a solid 5, and Minthara a 6 -6.5 at best for physical beauty. And all three have personality's of 3 and lower on a scale of 1-10. They are just not that appealing to either hang out with (personality) or enticing to look at (physical attractiveness). And Minthara has the worst personality of the three, unless you as the "partner" are fond of being patronized, victimized, and are in general a masochist in relationships. In that she delivers in spades.

So I agree with the OP on several points and yeah, I am American and most Americans tend to be prudes regarding sex, but that is because historically the first groups to migrate from Europe to here were puritans, and that has affected how the "American culture" has developed over time (sadly). So yes, I agree this game needs more romance options that are appealing to a broader spectrum of players that what is currently offered. The current female character options are all just bad choices to have any kind of game relationship with.
Posted By: fallenj Re: Adult content in BG3 - 05/05/21 06:18 AM
Originally Posted by CJMPinger
Originally Posted by fallenj
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by fallenj
Actually the only area in the game that seems relatively dark is the first couple rooms in the intro. The rest of the game came off as PG13 (haven't fully done swamp or touched underdark).

I was actually thinking the game would be more of how that was before I picked it up.
You didnt visited Goblin camp yet, did you?

I did, just a munch of destroyed junk.

edit* now that I think of it, there was the whole gnoll cut scene and area.

There are a lot of dead bodies, goblins eating dead adventurers, goblin children kicking a dead body (and I THINK you can kill those kids), the whole kicking people into a spider pit, animal cruelty with the owlbear cub, slavery, torture, and in general things that would keep the game's rating Mature and other area's equivalents of Mature.

With the Gnoll, if you got the symbol of the absolute you can make her eat the Zhents, eat her own pack, and then make her eat herself (though due to my like of gnolls I'd rather somehow recruit her with the tadpole).

You can doublecross the Zhentarim which actually leads to the guy you are doublecrossing them with being captured, tortured, and then executed.

You can pick the evil side and slaughter the tieflings. You can also murder people and then try to speak with their corpses.

And worst of all, you can be a dick to the dog.

Overall there are fairly dark and bloody parts of the game. Further on in the swamp there is the Hag which is a very typical hag with her basement of people she has "helped".

No, the goblins camp was predictable. Eating people, I'd have to replay/watch a let's play but I only remember the soup. You can find dead bodies in most games, along with animal cruelty, & whatever else.

In most games you are the hero that runs around an murders the villains, like I said very PG13.

This is just my opinion though.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Adult content in BG3 - 05/05/21 09:12 AM
Originally Posted by fallenj
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by fallenj
Actually the only area in the game that seems relatively dark is the first couple rooms in the intro. The rest of the game came off as PG13 (haven't fully done swamp or touched underdark).

I was actually thinking the game would be more of how that was before I picked it up.
You didnt visited Goblin camp yet, did you?

I did, just a munch of destroyed junk.

edit* now that I think of it, there was the whole gnoll cut scene and area.
So ...
Eating sentient beings (they rosted a Dwarf)
Self-harming priest
Torturing a man, with all juicy detailed dialogue options
Burning a mark to your own flesh
Throwing rocs at caged animal
Feeding poor Goblin to Spiders

None of that seem like adult material to you? O_o

Originally Posted by GM4Him
I'm referring more to how there is no real romance before the party and then all at once it's like BAM.
Call me a perverd if you like ... ( laugh )
But i like it this way.
I allways find it kinda funny that in big titles (Mass Effect, Dragon Age (maybe except Origin), ...) romance is created so slowly.
I mean, yes we all know that Protagonist will survive until the end of the story ... but look at it from their perspective: "I can die litteraly anytime in next hour, there is someone who is interested in me ... im interested in him/her too ... is there litteraly any reason to deny some pleasure?" I think not.

Its quite simple really ...
Sometimes good relationship starts with holding hands and shy kisses ... and in time evolves to visiting a swingers party.
Sometimes good relationship starts at that swingers party ... and in time people find their bond is keep getting stronger.
Maybe im exception around here ... but i like it that way. wink
Posted By: Ragnarök Re: Adult content in BG3 - 05/05/21 10:00 AM
Originally Posted by Aazo
Originally Posted by Alexandrite
Technically speaking, while female players have three attractive male romance options to choose from (Astarion, Gale and Wyll), the straight men do have Shadowheart, Lae'zel and Minthara, so the playing field is actually pretty even!

As a male I would have to differ in opinion here.... The three female options are just not that attractive at all. Laezel is like a 2.5 , Shadowhart a solid 5, and Minthara a 6 -6.5 at best for physical beauty. And all three have personality's of 3 and lower on a scale of 1-10. They are just not that appealing to either hang out with (personality) or enticing to look at (physical attractiveness). And Minthara has the worst personality of the three, unless you as the "partner" are fond of being patronized, victimized, and are in general a masochist in relationships. In that she delivers in spades.

So I agree with the OP on several points and yeah, I am American and most Americans tend to be prudes regarding sex, but that is because historically the first groups to migrate from Europe to here were puritans, and that has affected how the "American culture" has developed over time (sadly). So yes, I agree this game needs more romance options that are appealing to a broader spectrum of players that what is currently offered. The current female character options are all just bad choices to have any kind of game relationship with.

Indeed! up
Posted By: mr_planescapist Re: Adult content in BG3 - 05/05/21 11:43 AM
Larian style <adult> content seems to be extremely cartoonized, even the gore. I dont get dirty/scary adult atmosphere vibes from BG3. Its more on the weirdly funny side. Kind of like DOS2...
The starting dungeon in BG2 feels scarier, grittier, darker and more <adult> than BG3's first scenes. I mean even that first FMV with irrenicus is quite nightmarish. Everyone getting tortured, Jaheiras husband DEAD, failed experiments everywhere, sex slaves, imprisoned genie etc...
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Adult content in BG3 - 05/05/21 12:21 PM
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by fallenj
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by fallenj
Actually the only area in the game that seems relatively dark is the first couple rooms in the intro. The rest of the game came off as PG13 (haven't fully done swamp or touched underdark).

I was actually thinking the game would be more of how that was before I picked it up.
You didnt visited Goblin camp yet, did you?

I did, just a munch of destroyed junk.

edit* now that I think of it, there was the whole gnoll cut scene and area.
So ...
Eating sentient beings (they rosted a Dwarf)
Self-harming priest
Torturing a man, with all juicy detailed dialogue options
Burning a mark to your own flesh
Throwing rocs at caged animal
Feeding poor Goblin to Spiders

None of that seem like adult material to you? O_o

Originally Posted by GM4Him
I'm referring more to how there is no real romance before the party and then all at once it's like BAM.
Call me a perverd if you like ... ( laugh )
But i like it this way.
I allways find it kinda funny that in big titles (Mass Effect, Dragon Age (maybe except Origin), ...) romance is created so slowly.
I mean, yes we all know that Protagonist will survive until the end of the story ... but look at it from their perspective: "I can die litteraly anytime in next hour, there is someone who is interested in me ... im interested in him/her too ... is there litteraly any reason to deny some pleasure?" I think not.

Its quite simple really ...
Sometimes good relationship starts with holding hands and shy kisses ... and in time evolves to visiting a swingers party.
Sometimes good relationship starts at that swingers party ... and in time people find their bond is keep getting stronger.
Maybe im exception around here ... but i like it that way. wink

Why did you call yourself a pervert? I didn't call anyone any names. Please don't assume that I would.

Humans like sex. We were kinda created to like it. I know not everyone here is Christian but if you believe such things you know that God made Adam-kind and then said, "Now be fruitful and multiply."

So there's a reason we like it so much. We were commanded to do it. That said, there's lots of reasons why it can trip people up and cause us issues in life. Relationships can be utterly destroyed if people aren't careful with what they watch and what they tempt themselves with. THAT is why I disapprove of sex in media. It can mess people up and hurts them if they aren't careful. God never said, "Thou shalt not watch pixel images reenacting sexual experiences." He made laws to try to keep people from hurting themselves and others.

I say this because Im not out here judging you or something. You like the system as is? Ok. Doesn't make you a perv.

Anyway, I get Lae'zel and Astarion being abrupt and just, "Let's do it." I even get that Wyll might. Heck, they all might. What feels forced is that they all suddenly want to have a romance all on the same night.

My suggestion is that it should be different timing for different romances. Maybe Shadowheart wants to spend some alone time with you before the celebration event. She met you first. Maybe she would ask to enjoy your company when the dialogue is triggered where she tells you her secret. Maybe Gale's would be triggered later, when you are in the Underdark.

Astarion makes sense at the celebration. They are enjoying a victory and drinking and such. He feels free and good. Wyll too. You helped kill his enemies.

Lae'zel...I don't know. Maybe. She likes victory and death. Still, even two soliciting you at the same time seems a bit much. It can happen, mind you, but it just feels forced. I would think Lae' el would be more vulnerable after the Gith side quest. Her people betrayed her. If you responded right at that point, I could see her sneaking over to you that night and offering herself. That would feel more appropriate.
Posted By: Nyloth Re: Adult content in BG3 - 05/05/21 01:39 PM
Originally Posted by mr_planescapist
Larian style <adult> content seems to be extremely cartoonized, even the gore. I dont get dirty/scary adult atmosphere vibes from BG3. Its more on the weirdly funny side. Kind of like DOS2...
The starting dungeon in BG2 feels scarier, grittier, darker and more <adult> than BG3's first scenes. I mean even that first FMV with irrenicus is quite nightmarish. Everyone getting tortured, Jaheiras husband DEAD, failed experiments everywhere, sex slaves, imprisoned genie etc...

Your perception will not cancel age rating. Blood is still blood, murder is still murder, even if it seems cartoonized for you.


Originally Posted by GM4Him
Anyway, I get Lae'zel and Astarion being abrupt and just, "Let's do it." I even get that Wyll might. Heck, they all might. What feels forced is that they all suddenly want to have a romance all on the same night.

I believe that for Astarion and Lae, this is not romance, its just sex. After sex, Astarion can tell you not to tell anyone about what happened between you. For Lae, you are only reward for a good battle. So it's fine for them. Shadow has a very proper romantic scene where you get to know each other better. I've never seen Wyll and Gale scene.. But I know that Wyll likes alcohol, so it can be explained by this. Gale is the most incomprehensible character for me in romance with him.

I really wonder how it will be with other companions. Nevertheless, I believe that this is 'romance' only for Shadow. For everyone else, it's like having sex with Fane from DOS2, just an experience, not a start relationship. So I don't understand why people feel this way about it. And, again, game still doesn't have all cutscenes and dialogues.
Posted By: fallenj Re: Adult content in BG3 - 05/05/21 02:08 PM
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
So ...
Eating sentient beings (they rosted a Dwarf)
Self-harming priest
Torturing a man, with all juicy detailed dialogue options
Burning a mark to your own flesh
Throwing rocs at caged animal
Feeding poor Goblin to Spiders

None of that seem like adult material to you? O_o

Nope, just basic Violence. Starting to wonder if its just age difference and people are just prunes now a days. I remember my cousin being extremely against her kids playing borderlands 2 and at there age I was watching ren and stimpy, beavis and butthead, old loony toon vids, tom and jerry, ect.

Read a ton of comic books as a teen also which introduced a lot of different themes, usually just in the form of basic violence. Example: wolverine getting his adamantium ripped out of his body, pretty sure that was on the front cover of the comic.

Arnold movies, jurassic park, starship troopers, van damme, steven seagal, ect

youtube clip contains violence


Priests would hurt themselves in movies, generally common theme & Cannibalism another basic theme
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Adult content in BG3 - 05/05/21 02:37 PM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Why did you call yourself a pervert? I didn't call anyone any names. Please don't assume that I would.
I didnt ... i just offered that option, as they say "to whom it may concern" wink
And why? To expres it dont bother me at all. smile Its common behaviour in Czech. wink

Originally Posted by GM4Him
Humans like sex. We were kinda created to like it. I know not everyone here is Christian but if you believe such things you know that God made Adam-kind and then said, "Now be fruitful and multiply."
I dont quite understand why mention this ...

Originally Posted by GM4Him
Relationships can be utterly destroyed if people aren't careful with what they watch and what they tempt themselves with.
This is certainly interesting topic, about wich i would love to talk ...
I believe its about the people ... as they say: "When you take hammer and smash someone's head ... who is to blame? You, or the hammer?" wink
But since there is a huge potential for offtopics on this topic, I hope you understand that I will no longer comment on it in this thread from now on. smile

Originally Posted by GM4Him
THAT is why I disapprove of sex in media. It can mess people up and hurts them if they aren't careful. God never said, "Thou shalt not watch pixel images reenacting sexual experiences." He made laws to try to keep people from hurting themselves and others.
It would be hard for him to tell this around 2000(?) years before invention of pixel ...
Luckily you can allways skip it. O_o

But once again ... this isnt exacly fault of those pixels. O_o
Speaking for myself, those scenes are helping me to understand certain characters, in their own way, they are part of storytelling. For example:
Astarion takes sex as fun, and nothing more ... he dont seem to care so much who will be with him, as long as he gets good time.
Lae'zel concider sex as a reward ... yet she dont offer herself, she "claim you", if that makes sence in english.
Minthara for example seem to take sex as only another usefull tool to control others i dont believe there is much more in it for her. For her, the "morning" was even better, if you sleep with her ... even she seem to be surprised by that how much she care about you. smile

Originally Posted by GM4Him
Anyway, I get Lae'zel and Astarion being abrupt and just, "Let's do it." I even get that Wyll might. Heck, they all might. What feels forced is that they all suddenly want to have a romance all on the same night.
They just survived raid ...
If dozens of people die, and you are not one of them ... i believe that can provide you quite the perspective.
And if this is not place to appreciate life with everything it offers, i cant quite imagine what situation would be better. laugh

Keep in mind that from story perspective its a little more intensive than turn based combat, where you meanwhile manage to do few cofee and snack breaks. laugh
Adrenaline has done its job, now it's the turn of dopamine and endorphins. Supported by a little wine ... well, let's just say I'm behind Larian's decision and believe that "being horny" is the most natural state of mind in such a situation. laugh

Originally Posted by GM4Him
My suggestion is that it should be different timing for different romances. Maybe Shadowheart wants to spend some alone time with you before the celebration event. She met you first. Maybe she would ask to enjoy your company when the dialogue is triggered where she tells you her secret. Maybe Gale's would be triggered later, when you are in the Underdark.
Well ... for reasons i writed abowe, it fits me good where it is ...
If you would say aditional romance, i would have zero problem ... and when i say romance, i mean it litteraly, no need for aditional porn just some relationship progress.

I believe it would be fine for some more romantic characters(Shadow(?), Gale, maybe Wyll), to allow us to sleep together since *that night* ... but for others (Astarion, Lae'zel) being refused. :P

Originally Posted by GM4Him
I would think Lae' el would be more vulnerable after the Gith side quest. Her people betrayed her. If you responded right at that point, I could see her sneaking over to you that night and offering herself. That would feel more appropriate.
Same reaction as abowe ... switch word "change" for word "add" and i agree. laugh
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Adult content in BG3 - 05/05/21 02:45 PM
Originally Posted by fallenj
Nope, just basic Violence. Starting to wonder if its just age difference and people are just prunes now a days.
Dunno ...
I dont think people changed in any way, more like they just want to be legally covered.
You put there "mature rating" and none you put there is tabu ... you put there "13+ rating" and you can have problems, when anyone else can give you hard time, when they would concider your content to be inapropiate. wink

Originally Posted by fallenj
Read a ton of comic books as a teen also which introduced a lot of different themes, usually just in the form of basic violence. Example: wolverine getting his adamantium ripped out of his body, pretty sure that was on the front cover of the comic.
And i would bet that comics had somewhere on that front cover rating that tells you its "ment to be for mature audience". wink
Wanna gues why? smile
Posted By: fallenj Re: Adult content in BG3 - 05/05/21 02:52 PM
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by fallenj
Nope, just basic Violence. Starting to wonder if its just age difference and people are just prunes now a days.
Dunno ...
I dont think people changed in any way, more like they just want to be legally covered.
You put there "mature rating" and none you put there is tabu ... you put there "13+ rating" and you can have problems, when anyone else can give you hard time, when they would concider your content to be inapropiate. wink

Originally Posted by fallenj
Read a ton of comic books as a teen also which introduced a lot of different themes, usually just in the form of basic violence. Example: wolverine getting his adamantium ripped out of his body, pretty sure that was on the front cover of the comic.
And i would bet that comics had somewhere on that front cover rating that tells you its "ment to be for mature audience". wink
Wanna gues why? smile

comics? they are teen like i said, not 17+ mature
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Adult content in BG3 - 05/05/21 09:09 PM
@RagnarokCzD

What I am referring to by, "Relationships can be utterly destroyed if people aren't careful with what they watch and what they tempt themselves with," is that sex is like a drug. It is very addictive. It is one of the most powerful drives that a person can have. What you allow into your mind affects you long-term. It is imprinted down deep in your subconscious mind. When you see images of people having sex on TV or in movies or video games or whatever, those images become implanted into your brain. The experiences the characters have in video games and TV and movies and such are pure fantasy, and that pure fantasy becomes people's ideals for romance and sex; ideals others can't live up to.

Several negative things can occur as a result:

1. If you are married or in an relationship, or even if in the future you are in a relationship, you may develop certain expectations, without even realizing it, for your significant other that they don't like and/or that they aren't able to fulfill. Because what you have ingrained into your brain is something unrealistic, it can harm your real experiences. CAN, mind you. It doesn't necessarily mean that it does or will for everyone. Either way, by putting this stuff into your head, you can develop unhealthy behaviors and attitudes towards your significant other. Basically, you put the fantasy on a pedestal that no one can really attain to because this is the kind of thing that excited you in the stuff you've been watching. So, you may even wind up ruining your relationship with your significant other because he/she is not living up to your fantasy expectations. Case in point, some women starve themselves because they are trying to mold themselves into some unrealistic video game woman's image just so they can feel more attractive to men. That's not healthy.

2. Your spouse/significant other may not like the fact that you are watching or playing those kinds of things. Maybe they do, but maybe they don't. Even if they say they do, they may not truly be okay with it. Some will say they are okay with it, even if they are not, because they are trying to make you happy. But deep down inside, they probably resent it. Why? Because they may feel that you have to fantasize about some video game character or whatever in order to do anything with them. They don't excite you enough, so you need some sort of pixels all put together to form the image of people having sex in order to get excited enough to do something with them. Again, I'm not saying everyone is that way. Some may truly be perfectly fine with it. However, I think it might surprise you to find out how many are not okay with it.

3. Some can't control their sexual appetites. The more this stuff is readily accessible to them, the easier it is for them to consume it. But, like many addictions, the more they consume it, the more they need it and the bigger the fix that they need. This CAN, not always, but CAN lead to individuals doing things they shouldn't do; aka sexual crimes. Again, this is not saying that it DOES lead to it. I am just saying it CAN help it along and assist in nudging some people down that path.

Therefore, putting this stuff in games and TV and so forth is playing with fire. Although there are many who can handle it and not do something stupid, there are many who can't. You feed the problem for those who can't handle it, and therefore potentially harm them further and those in their lives.

This world has enough problems with relationships and marriages and divorces and sexual crimes. So, why are we doing things that could potentially make the situation worse as opposed to better?

That is why I don't like sex in games and such. I think it does more harm than good, and frankly, I don't need it. I like romance in games because I think it's sweet and fun and so forth, and it adds a level of emotional connection, but I prefer when games and such "fade to black." You know what happened. You don't need to show me the details. Let the characters have their privacy. Let them have their intimate moment without you watching. lol. As if pixels have intimate moments and need privacy. smile

Anyway, all that aside. If they got rid of sex and maybe toned down a bit on the violence and gore, they could make this a Teen game. THAT was actually my overall point. Wouldn't they sell more games by making it more available to a wider audience? Parents who don't like their kids playing games with Sex and Gore might allow them to play BG3 if they got rid of the sex scenes and some of the graphic violence. I honestly am not bothered by the violence level, but whatever. The point is that if they tamed down these things, which aren't really necessary to the story, they could lower the Mature Rating to Teen and thus open the game up to more players. Many parents these days are even willing to let their littlest ones play Teen games if they don't have a lot of swearing and graphic violence and especially sex. So although I'm sure a lot of people on this thread love this stuff, I was thinking Larian could actually get more sales if they tone it down a bit to broaden the audience. I'm not saying tone it town a ton. I'm just saying a bit. It honestly doesn't take much these days to go from Mature to Teen.
Posted By: Aishaddai Re: Adult content in BG3 - 05/05/21 09:55 PM
@GM4Him It's up to the weak to commit to being stronger. All you described is weak will, low resilience, and generally deceptive behavior. Cutting them off only creates taboo's for tempting. It's up to individuals to better themselves. Which has nothing to do with the hobby.

If a game or whatever was enough to destroy a relationship, by proxy or otherwise, that's a you problem. You didn't deserve a successful relationship in the first place.

Sex is not a drug nor harmful in anyway. It's the people that are harmful and it doesn't even have to involve sex at all. Sex is often the scape goat for more complicated issues that inescapably come from people.

Sorry you have that all wrong.
Posted By: Dez Re: Adult content in BG3 - 05/05/21 10:04 PM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
@RagnarokCzD

What I am referring to by, "Relationships can be utterly destroyed if people aren't careful with what they watch and what they tempt themselves with," is that sex is like a drug. It is very addictive. It is one of the most powerful drives that a person can have. What you allow into your mind affects you long-term. It is imprinted down deep in your subconscious mind. When you see images of people having sex on TV or in movies or video games or whatever, those images become implanted into your brain. The experiences the characters have in video games and TV and movies and such are pure fantasy, and that pure fantasy becomes people's ideals for romance and sex; ideals others can't live up to.

I'll have to respecfully disagree. I would strongly take distance from the statement that sex, in any kind of normal form (which is highly subjective, but lets go with the average "common sense" here), would be more destructive than any other behavior when handled with moderation.

Originally Posted by GM4Him
1. If you are married or in an relationship, or even if in the future you are in a relationship, you may develop certain expectations, without even realizing it, for your significant other that they don't like and/or that they aren't able to fulfill. Because what you have ingrained into your brain is something unrealistic, it can harm your real experiences. CAN, mind you. It doesn't necessarily mean that it does or will for everyone. Either way, by putting this stuff into your head, you can develop unhealthy behaviors and attitudes towards your significant other. Basically, you put the fantasy on a pedestal that no one can really attain to because this is the kind of thing that excited you in the stuff you've been watching. So, you may even wind up ruining your relationship with your significant other because he/she is not living up to your fantasy expectations. Case in point, some women starve themselves because they are trying to mold themselves into some unrealistic video game woman's image just so they can feel more attractive to men. That's not healthy.

This statement sounds a lot like teeny girls joking around with "Disney gave me unrealistic expectations of men". Most people know what is real, and what is not. Sure - there are *DEFINITELY* cases where individuals have been ruined, in one way or another, from watching too much porn something similar - but that is by far a minority. And - this is problematic with pretty much anything that is overdone, even generally healthy things like exercising.

I'd argue that if we're to see sexual accomplishment in fiction as potential danger, then romantic movies for women should be considered dangerous as well since... Well, just how realistic is it that each and every dude should endure often toxic relationships and literally drop anything in terms of dreams for their girl? That's not healthy - for either part tbh. ESPECIALLY not the entire "you can change the bad guy into a real sweetheart"-perspective - like the last thing there is outright dangerous in the real world - but that does not stop people from making those kinds of movies.

Originally Posted by GM4Him
2. Your spouse/significant other may not like the fact that you are watching or playing those kinds of things. Maybe they do, but maybe they don't. Even if they say they do, they may not truly be okay with it. Some will say they are okay with it, even if they are not, because they are trying to make you happy. But deep down inside, they probably resent it. Why? Because they may feel that you have to fantasize about some video game character or whatever in order to do anything with them. They don't excite you enough, so you need some sort of pixels all put together to form the image of people having sex in order to get excited enough to do something with them. Again, I'm not saying everyone is that way. Some may truly be perfectly fine with it. However, I think it might surprise you to find out how many are not okay with it.

That is a problem that each couple will have to deal with. If you're not grown enough to talk these things through in an honest matter - then I'd doubt you're mature enough for a serious relationship at all. If my SO says something is okay, I am not gonna second guess it unless something seems severely off. We value open communication above all else - I am okay with him watching porn if he feels the need to, and he is okay with me romancing NPCs in a video game (or even romance characters from other players in DnD roleplaying). Honestly - keeping it in BG3, when I didn't want to romance any character on my ranger because they were an ill fit for her - my SO were the one who said "You should totally try the vampire dude though" ...

What I want to say is that In the end - we both know that we are with each other for a reason - and that reason is much stronger than anything related to movies, porn or video games romances. We function in adult life together and we have a lot of hobby things in common. Momentarily seeking refuge to satisfy one's physical or mental needs is not about your partner not being enough but rather just RESPECTING WHEN YOUR PARTNER SAYS NO or when they need their alone-time. Because truth is - in reality, two beings will not always feel like doing the same thing at the same time. We do not always want sex at the same time and we do not always want to cuddle up and be romantic at the same time - this way, one can satisfy ones need when the other one needs a breather. It is a great way to avoid nagging and avoiding guilt-tripping your partner into satisfying your needs - because nagging and guilt-tripping would be a MUCH bigger problem than my SO looking at some boobs or booty for a few minutes. Sure - one could argue that "you could just wait" and sure. One could - but you would still be putting pressure on your partner unintentionally, they would be very much aware of that you're waiting and that could stress them even further. Alternatively - in the long run you could be doing damage to yourself by denying your own mental or physical needs out of respect for your partner. I think we can all agree that neither of those two scenarios could be considered healthy.

Besides - once again - one could easily argue that guys should pull the same argument about all women drooling over actors in romantic series / movies. I mean, have you seen the comment section to some of series that are popular with the ladies? I most certainly have and the pure physical thirst could easily rival the most thirsty parts of the internet.

Originally Posted by GM4Him
3. Some can't control their sexual appetites. The more this stuff is readily accessible to them, the easier it is for them to consume it. But, like many addictions, the more they consume it, the more they need it and the bigger the fix that they need. This CAN, not always, but CAN lead to individuals doing things they shouldn't do; aka sexual crimes. Again, this is not saying that it DOES lead to it. I am just saying it CAN help it along and assist in nudging some people down that path.

Therefore, putting this stuff in games and TV and so forth is playing with fire. Although there are many who can handle it and not do something stupid, there are many who can't. You feed the problem for those who can't handle it, and therefore potentially harm them further and those in their lives.

This world has enough problems with relationships and marriages and divorces and sexual crimes. So, why are we doing things that could potentially make the situation worse as opposed to better?

That is why I don't like sex in games and such. I think it does more harm than good, and frankly, I don't need it. I like romance in games because I think it's sweet and fun and so forth, and it adds a level of emotional connection, but I prefer when games and such "fade to black." You know what happened. You don't need to show me the details. Let the characters have their privacy. Let them have their intimate moment without you watching. lol. As if pixels have intimate moments and need privacy. smile

No. There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever anywhere that porn or any form of sexual content increase the risk of people ACTUALLY committing sexual crimes. This has already been researched during the outrages about GTA years and years ago along with the entire "video games cause violence" rant - and it has, from a scientific point of view, been debunked. You know why? Because regular people can very much tell the difference between reality and fiction. Sex in games and movies does not "do more harm than good" unless you take religious or cultural values into account (which is another debate entirely and not suitable for these forums so I'll keep it biological / super general / functional-human-being-ish). That is an opinion based on nothing but your own personal preference (which is fine and all - we all have preferences and I got slightly horrified when I saw the Minthara romance on YouTube because that sht is very much NOT my cup of tea - but this does not give me the right to go spreading false propaganda about what it might or might not cause people to do - there has already been A LOT of research in the matter and it has been SEVERELY debunked).

Originally Posted by GM4Him
Anyway, all that aside. If they got rid of sex and maybe toned down a bit on the violence and gore, they could make this a Teen game. THAT was actually my overall point. Wouldn't they sell more games by making it more available to a wider audience? Parents who don't like their kids playing games with Sex and Gore might allow them to play BG3 if they got rid of the sex scenes and some of the graphic violence. I honestly am not bothered by the violence level, but whatever. The point is that if they tamed down these things, which aren't really necessary to the story, they could lower the Mature Rating to Teen and thus open the game up to more players. Many parents these days are even willing to let their littlest ones play Teen games if they don't have a lot of swearing and graphic violence and especially sex. So although I'm sure a lot of people on this thread love this stuff, I was thinking Larian could actually get more sales if they tone it down a bit to broaden the audience. I'm not saying tone it town a ton. I'm just saying a bit. It honestly doesn't take much these days to go from Mature to Teen.

Perhaps, but they would definitely lose sales on the adult audience by including content made for teens - because lets be real, most adult find things that teenys like extremely cringe. And right now, CRPGs are more common amongst adults than teens - I would assume, since it is in Larians best interest to make a good amount of sales, that their producers already done the math.

BESIDES - I am really curious about your reasoning. WHY would it be worse to have a "incorrect" picture of sex than having a "incorrect" picture about relationships overall?

You literally say you don't mind romances because they are sweet and all - but at the same time you condemn sex because it fills the player with "unreal expectations". Anybody who have had a relationship can tell you that the vast majority of relationships does not work like relationship in videos games (mainly cause we do not live in an action fantasy world, but yeah...) - why is the idea of sex more harmful to get wrong than the idea of relationships overall? I personally, if I were to start thinking about condemning something for ruining relationships, would turn my gaze to romantic teen series first and foremost (but I wouldn't, because I severely believe that functional human beings can tell the difference between entertainment and real life).
Posted By: CJMPinger Re: Adult content in BG3 - 05/05/21 10:18 PM
Um, most of what you listed are problems of the individual and not problems of media but I will only address your statement about it being able to be made into a Teen game.

I am of the mind that art should be at whatever "rating" that is intended by the artist for their art. That is to say, I think the game should have whatever rating it is going for. If the developers want to add sex and violence, all the power to them because that is in the vision of the game they intend to make and lies in the vision of many (but not all) of those supporting the game. Watering something down to seek a larger audience is actually a little bit of an issue in media in my eyes, cause it is typically not from the perspective of the artist(s) but businessmen. Often times the lines between a PG-13 movie and an R rated film is just how many times a character cursed. That line can similarly be blurred with video games. Often times Teen games have violence and sexual content that is more than their M rated counterparts but the only difference is that there isn't blood with that violence, or characters are more clothed while being sexual. The lines can often be arbitrary. Also often times watering something down just to reach a Teen rating can be detrimental to the experience. An example that comes to mind is Mortal Kombat vs. DC Universe, whereas the origin series of Mortal Kombat is known for its violence and gore, it is expected with the series, yet they made sure to push for a Teen rating so they could get more Teen comic and superhero fans. However this actually made some fans of MK unhappy as violence was an expected part of MK, it was a major part of its aesthetic. This can go in the other direct, sometimes adding things to push the rating up purely to push the rating up can make an experience uncomfortable or unenjoyable. However with BG3 it seems like it is an intended part of the art, Mindflayers being a big reason because anything with them is meant to be concerning at the best with mind control and enslavement, and overwhelmingly gruesome at birthing out of people and intellect devourers puppeting corpses. The sex also seems purposeful for the characters presented, none of them seem chaste and sex is a common instinct, especially in situations like the ones these characters are in. The only issue with sex is that for a player it may be a little too forefront and so it would generally be better for there to be some more direct flirting on the part of the player before every character wants a piece of them.
I'd agree with you IF it felt like the mature elements were forced, but to me they don't, they feel like a part of the intended experience. So I think the game should be comfortable with a M rating.
Posted By: Alexandrite Re: Adult content in BG3 - 05/05/21 10:50 PM
Wow, this thread has covered a lot of territory, while still managing to be respectful (so far)! If nothing else, it's good that we ARE having this discussion. smile

This is getting too big to put in forum quotations so I'll just say:

GM4Him, you've clearly put a lot of thought into your response, and I can appreciate where you're coming from, but I have to agree with Dez here. Most people (adults) can tell fantasy from reality, and keep the two apart. In fact my husband and I had an interesting discussion about this last night (after I showed him this thread). I certainly don't get in his way or question his RPG romances every time he plays a game, and he doesn't question mine, because we love each other in the real world and some attractive pixels in a fictional story are no threat to our actual real life relationship. Neither is porn, sexy fan fiction or anything else. If THOSE are the issues causing unrealistic expectations in a relationship in someone's real life, that is not an issue of this game, or the media as a whole, that is an issue for those (hypothetical) people. Also, M/R/etc ratings exist for a reason.

Larian/BG3 is not adding sex scenes to tempt people away from their spouses, they are part of the game because they are part of the story for these particular characters, and part of human life experience, generally speaking. Relationships in video games are not like real life, and I don't think most people expect them to be! They are an escape from reality - like reading a good book, a good game's story like this one draws you in, and allows you to experience/imagine that story and see it through your character's eyes. But it's important to remember that it's just a character, just a fictional story.
Posted By: Ragnarök Re: Adult content in BG3 - 05/05/21 11:07 PM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
@RagnarokCzD

What I am referring to by, "Relationships can be utterly destroyed if people aren't careful with what they watch and what they tempt themselves with," is that sex is like a drug. It is very addictive. It is one of the most powerful drives that a person can have. What you allow into your mind affects you long-term. It is imprinted down deep in your subconscious mind. When you see images of people having sex on TV or in movies or video games or whatever, those images become implanted into your brain. The experiences the characters have in video games and TV and movies and such are pure fantasy, and that pure fantasy becomes people's ideals for romance and sex; ideals others can't live up to.

Several negative things can occur as a result:

1. If you are married or in an relationship, or even if in the future you are in a relationship, you may develop certain expectations, without even realizing it, for your significant other that they don't like and/or that they aren't able to fulfill. Because what you have ingrained into your brain is something unrealistic, it can harm your real experiences. CAN, mind you. It doesn't necessarily mean that it does or will for everyone. Either way, by putting this stuff into your head, you can develop unhealthy behaviors and attitudes towards your significant other. Basically, you put the fantasy on a pedestal that no one can really attain to because this is the kind of thing that excited you in the stuff you've been watching. So, you may even wind up ruining your relationship with your significant other because he/she is not living up to your fantasy expectations. Case in point, some women starve themselves because they are trying to mold themselves into some unrealistic video game woman's image just so they can feel more attractive to men. That's not healthy.

2. Your spouse/significant other may not like the fact that you are watching or playing those kinds of things. Maybe they do, but maybe they don't. Even if they say they do, they may not truly be okay with it. Some will say they are okay with it, even if they are not, because they are trying to make you happy. But deep down inside, they probably resent it. Why? Because they may feel that you have to fantasize about some video game character or whatever in order to do anything with them. They don't excite you enough, so you need some sort of pixels all put together to form the image of people having sex in order to get excited enough to do something with them. Again, I'm not saying everyone is that way. Some may truly be perfectly fine with it. However, I think it might surprise you to find out how many are not okay with it.

3. Some can't control their sexual appetites. The more this stuff is readily accessible to them, the easier it is for them to consume it. But, like many addictions, the more they consume it, the more they need it and the bigger the fix that they need. This CAN, not always, but CAN lead to individuals doing things they shouldn't do; aka sexual crimes. Again, this is not saying that it DOES lead to it. I am just saying it CAN help it along and assist in nudging some people down that path.

Therefore, putting this stuff in games and TV and so forth is playing with fire. Although there are many who can handle it and not do something stupid, there are many who can't. You feed the problem for those who can't handle it, and therefore potentially harm them further and those in their lives.

This world has enough problems with relationships and marriages and divorces and sexual crimes. So, why are we doing things that could potentially make the situation worse as opposed to better?

That is why I don't like sex in games and such. I think it does more harm than good, and frankly, I don't need it. I like romance in games because I think it's sweet and fun and so forth, and it adds a level of emotional connection, but I prefer when games and such "fade to black." You know what happened. You don't need to show me the details. Let the characters have their privacy. Let them have their intimate moment without you watching. lol. As if pixels have intimate moments and need privacy. smile

Anyway, all that aside. If they got rid of sex and maybe toned down a bit on the violence and gore, they could make this a Teen game. THAT was actually my overall point. Wouldn't they sell more games by making it more available to a wider audience? Parents who don't like their kids playing games with Sex and Gore might allow them to play BG3 if they got rid of the sex scenes and some of the graphic violence. I honestly am not bothered by the violence level, but whatever. The point is that if they tamed down these things, which aren't really necessary to the story, they could lower the Mature Rating to Teen and thus open the game up to more players. Many parents these days are even willing to let their littlest ones play Teen games if they don't have a lot of swearing and graphic violence and especially sex. So although I'm sure a lot of people on this thread love this stuff, I was thinking Larian could actually get more sales if they tone it down a bit to broaden the audience. I'm not saying tone it town a ton. I'm just saying a bit. It honestly doesn't take much these days to go from Mature to Teen.

Fair points @ GM4Him
As a matter of fact I’m still officially Catholic, I never quit the church officially, despite havening to pay some minor church taxes and not going to church, except for Christmas once a year. So I know Catholic sexual morale very well. Despite being still a member, I never followed these strict rules, which I don’t consider to be up to date. I grew up in a family which is nominally Catholic, but very liberal – they don’t take faith that serious. I had sex before marriage, I used condoms and yeah I had many sexual relationships just for fun during my life so far. My current (long-term) girlfriend is a nominally Lutheran woman, who is pretty much agnostic, such as myself. Religion doesn't play any role in our relationship, we just love each other.
I’m a sinner, I confess, but I don’t regret it. You can only regret, what you didn’t do anyway, because for everything you did, there were specific reasons in that period of life. I think modern times changed our lives a lot, there is advanced science and a lot of this contradicts the preaching of the church, especially the bible. Still Christian faith (Catholic & Lutheran) belongs to my culture, which is German, and I don’t want it to disappear completely. Also the architecture of the many medieval gothic cathedrals in Germany shall be preserved for the generations to come, because those buildings are marvelous and also serve an educational purpose. Only therefore I gladly pay my church taxes. Cathedrals cost a huge sum to maintain and this isn't financed by the German state, but church taxes, despite being someone who has many doubts about faith in general. And once I die, I prefer having a Catholic priest say a few words about me in front of my family and children, instead of a profane funeral for agnostics. So far for my personal stance on religion, which is more a cultural thing for me.

Anyway you’ve got a few points here, which I’ll second. The internet and the availability of porn at every corner actually isn’t healthy in general. People might develop strange tastes because of that and the number of addicts to online-porn grow. It can even destroy your sex life, because you might expect from your girlfriend to perform like a porn-star during sex, which is not realistic and eventually you might not be able to enjoy normal sex any more, which should be a beautiful thing between two individuals. I’m not against porn in general, but people should be aware of the fact that it harms them eventually on a psychological level, if they overdo.
In games we are talking about sexual acts, which can be described as soft-core, same applies to most movies. I’m perfectly d’accord with those. I don’t consider these to be harmful in any way, unlike the extensive consume of porn. Most people enjoy these fictions with a little bit of erotic content in it.

Concerning crime or rape that’s a sociological problem. The specific socialization of a person might lead to such a behavior. This has got nothing to do with sex being displayed in games or movies.
I would never do such a thing, I wouldn’t even be capable to enjoy it, if I had to force someone to have sex with me. After all I enjoy it even more if she wants me as much as I want her - mutual passion! A rapist has got a significant mental illness, which has got nothing to do with popular culture. Although I seriously doubt, that many of those actually can be therapized as repeat offender statistics show. Lock them away for good!

Now for beauty ideals, these weren’t created out of thin air and exist for both genders. Therefore I don’t have a problem with games or movies mainly showing attractive role models for both genders. Beauty ideals may be unfair, because they are genetically mostly, but still there is an evolutionary reason for those like phenotypical signs of fertility for women and being able to protect and to provide for the offspring for males (stone age logic, which still has got a meaning even today). Anyway concerning modern ideals, not everyone wants a flat-chested bulimia catwalk model with matchstick legs to be his girlfriend, who for the overhwelming part of human history wouldn't be considered to be attractive at all. Personally I actually prefer some curves at the right spots, without her being overweight and I very much prefer blondes, but that's just me. And not every woman wants Arnold Schwarzenegger as husband, too.

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

I absolutely don’t think, that Larian should appease prude American parents, I’m sorry. It will attract more players worldwide, if some soft display of nudity and sexual acts are shown in the game. I fear that Wizards of the Coast (Washington, USA) might have a bad influence on Larian (Belgium, Europe). I hope they will handle the display of sexuality more like CD Projekt Red did with Witcher 3, which still had a M ESRB rating in the US afaik. In Germany by the way Witcher 3 had an A ESRB rating (USK 18 is the German equivalent, which means only for adults), not because of the sex, but because of the explicit gore/violence. Just saying, how mentalities tend to be different across the globe.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Adult content in BG3 - 06/05/21 01:44 AM
Just going based on stats. Of the top ten best selling games of 2021, how many are truly Mature?

Rank Rank Last Month Title Publisher
1 2 Call of Duty: Black Ops: Cold War Activision Blizzard (Corp)
2 NEW Monster Hunter: Rise Capcom USA
3 NEW Outriders Square Enix Inc (Corp)
4 1 Super Mario 3D World* Nintendo
5 4 Marvel's Spider-Man: Miles Morales Sony (Corp)
6 9 Mario Kart 8* Nintendo
7 7 Assassin's Creed: Valhalla Ubisoft
8 10 Animal Crossing: New Horizons* Nintendo
9 16 Super Mario 3D All-Stars* Nintendo
10 8 Minecraft Multiple Video Game Manufacturers

I see 2 games, right? COD and Assassins Creed. Granted, COD is #1, but how many have sexual content?

Now, that said, these aren't really RPGs. So maybe of those interested in RPGs, a majority like sex in games. I don't know. All I'm saying is that Larian might get more customers with a Teen rating rather than Mature and if they didn't have sex in the game.

But again, maybe they have stats I don't.
Posted By: Alexandrite Re: Adult content in BG3 - 06/05/21 02:08 AM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Just going based on stats. Of the top ten best selling games of 2021, how many are truly Mature?

Um, try comparing games that are actually in the same genre? You literally can't compare BG3 to Super Mario or Minecraft. That's not apples and oranges, that's apples and.. erm.. jellyfish? Two totally different worlds. They might be in the "best selling" list but vastly different people buy the games on this list, for vastly different reasons.

To me, BG3 is comparable most directly to the Dragon Age series (well that's what it reminds me most of, anyway), and perhaps The Witcher series - all of which have had romances in them. Also, the BG series seems to have always had romances as part of the story.
Posted By: Ragnarök Re: Adult content in BG3 - 06/05/21 02:16 AM
CD Projekt Red's Witcher 3 has sold over 50 Million copies so far since release and set a new milestone for the rpg genre in general. You compare apples and pears. Super Mario Cart players usually aren't the kind of audience BG3 seeks...
I do enjoy tactical shooters for example, but only realistic hardcore ones like "Hell Let Loose" for example, not the kind silly CoD or Battlefield arcade kiddies prefer. (HLL is made by an Australian company by the way and without the usual US specific pathos and not only therefore so much better. Nevertheless I give credit to the US Battlefield 5 creators for providing a single player campaign from the German WW2 perspective, which requires some balls today, but it was still a totally arcady game like the whole series, not the kind I enjoy.) So every genre has got its fans and you just provided statistics for one year, which isn't even halfway over, yet.
By the way where is "Valheim" in your statistic for example, the best selling game on steam so far in 2021 with over 5 Million copies in just one month since release?
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Adult content in BG3 - 06/05/21 02:30 AM
Ok. Let's just talk RPGs only. How many of these have sex scenes?

Im not talking romance. Im talking actual sex scenes.


Individually, The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim is the best selling RPG of all time.

Pokémon - 368 million
Final Fantasy - 154.5 million
Dragon Quest - 81 million[2]
Dragon Quest - 81 million[3]
The Elder Scrolls - 52 million
Borderlands - 48 million[4]
Lineage - 43 million
The Witcher - 40 million
Fallout - 38 million
Mario RPG - 28.7 million
Mario RPG - 28.7 million
Kingdom Hearts - 25 million[5]
Megami Tensei - 23.5 million[6]</nowiki>[7]
Tales - 20 million[8]
Dragon Ball RPG - 17.2 million
Mass Effect - 16.5 million
Super Robot Wars - 16 million
World of Warcraft - 14 million
Souls - 14.7 million
Yo-kai Watch - 13 million[9]
Mana - 12.3 million[10]
Fable - 12 million[11][12]
Guild Wars - 11.5 million
Persona - 11.1 million[13]
SaGa - 9.9 million[14]
Inazuma Eleven - 8 million[15]
Chrono - 5.4 million[16]
Baldur's Gate - 5 million[17]
Nier - 5 million<ref>Nier 1 - 500k - SourceNier Automata - 4.5 million Source </ref>

BG1 and 2 also did not have sex scenes. You had the option to have sex with someone, but it was fade to black.
Posted By: Ragnarök Re: Adult content in BG3 - 06/05/21 02:35 AM
50 Million copies sold for Witcher 3 in May 2020 as the following article claims. By now it should be even more...
https://www.ibtimes.com/witcher-3-sets-new-milestone-over-50-million-copies-sold-2984764

And Pokemon, sorry, are you kidding me?! It shouldn't be on that list you provided to begin with. That's a kid's game for anime fans.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Adult content in BG3 - 06/05/21 02:39 AM
As for the other things I said, I know it to be true. Call people weak for succumbing to temptation, but the fact is that there are people, LOTS of people, who struggle against sexual addictions. Sex scenes in games and movies and stuff for them is like an alcoholic trying to give up drinking. It is hard because it is everywhere in media.

So that's why I said, it might not hurt you, but it hurts others. There are people who would REALLY love to play BG3, but they won't because the game has sexual content even available to them. I also know people who would never let their teens even consider a game that has any potential sex scenes in it.

You might think it's not a lot, but there's a reason Skyrim sold more than all the others. It was mature, but it didn't have naughty bits. Even young teens could play Skyrim because parents weren't worried their horny teen might see boobies and butts. Believe it or not, but no boobs and butts and minimal foul language goes a long way for a lot of parents.
Posted By: CJMPinger Re: Adult content in BG3 - 06/05/21 03:00 AM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Ok. Let's just talk RPGs only. How many of these have sex scenes?

Im not talking romance. Im talking actual sex scenes.


Individually, The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim is the best selling RPG of all time.

Pokémon - 368 million
Final Fantasy - 154.5 million
Dragon Quest - 81 million[2]
Dragon Quest - 81 million[3]
The Elder Scrolls - 52 million
Borderlands - 48 million[4]
Lineage - 43 million
The Witcher - 40 million
Fallout - 38 million
Mario RPG - 28.7 million
Mario RPG - 28.7 million
Kingdom Hearts - 25 million[5]
Megami Tensei - 23.5 million[6]</nowiki>[7]
Tales - 20 million[8]
Dragon Ball RPG - 17.2 million
Mass Effect - 16.5 million
Super Robot Wars - 16 million
World of Warcraft - 14 million
Souls - 14.7 million
Yo-kai Watch - 13 million[9]
Mana - 12.3 million[10]
Fable - 12 million[11][12]
Guild Wars - 11.5 million
Persona - 11.1 million[13]
SaGa - 9.9 million[14]
Inazuma Eleven - 8 million[15]
Chrono - 5.4 million[16]
Baldur's Gate - 5 million[17]
Nier - 5 million<ref>Nier 1 - 500k - SourceNier Automata - 4.5 million Source </ref>

BG1 and 2 also did not have sex scenes. You had the option to have sex with someone, but it was fade to black.

Elderscrolls I think had one in one of the older games? I know in Morrowind there was some... interesting stuff.
Fallout definitely. Fallout 2 you could be a prostitute or pornstar, and you could marry people (regardless of gender which was ahead of its time for a game). Fallout New Vegas has fade to black sex but there are strippers (some of them ghouls and missing their skin).
Borderlands, kinda. Lots of sex jokes and immaturity all round.
The Witcher, definitely.
Mass Effect, there was the whole Fox News calling it porn fiasco.
Megami Tensei, Yes. And I count Persona as a SMT game. There is a recoccuring persona/demon that is a penis on a chariot. The first boss in SMT Persona 5 represents lust and sexually assaults minors and has a recreation of the first female party member in a wineglass which he slurps and tongues with.
WoW actually had a very large ERP server at some point and people got very detailed there. Only mentioning here cause kinda interesting/weird how people inserted their own sex scenes into a MMO.
Fable, definitely. Fade to black but you hear it.
And I think there is a sex scene in Nier Automata, there is upskirting and stuff like that, and there is sexual content in the series that was before it, Drakengard, I think.

A large portion of the list does contain sex scenes, it is kinda a thing with M Rated RPGS.

Edit: I forgot, elderscrolls also has the "book" The Lusty Argonian Maid which is just full on innuendo porn with Spear Polishing so yeah...
Posted By: CJMPinger Re: Adult content in BG3 - 06/05/21 03:07 AM
Originally Posted by Ragnarök
50 Million copies sold for Witcher 3 in May 2020 as the following article claims. By now it should be even more...
https://www.ibtimes.com/witcher-3-sets-new-milestone-over-50-million-copies-sold-2984764

And Pokemon, sorry, are you kidding me?! It shouldn't be on that list you provided to begin with. That's a kid's game for anime fans.

It is an RPG so it qualifies for a best selling RPG list. That said it is leagues away from BG in terms of comparisn. The closest game I am surprised is not on that list cause Dragon Age sold very well, and is arguably better than Mass Effect.
Posted By: Ragnarök Re: Adult content in BG3 - 06/05/21 03:09 AM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
As for the other things I said, I know it to be true. Call people weak for succumbing to temptation, but the fact is that there are people, LOTS of people, who struggle against sexual addictions. Sex scenes in games and movies and stuff for them is like an alcoholic trying to give up drinking. It is hard because it is everywhere in media.

So that's why I said, it might not hurt you, but it hurts others. There are people who would REALLY love to play BG3, but they won't because the game has sexual content even available to them. I also know people who would never let their teens even consider a game that has any potential sex scenes in it.

You might think it's not a lot, but there's a reason Skyrim sold more than all the others. It was mature, but it didn't have naughty bits. Even young teens could play Skyrim because parents weren't worried their horny teen might see boobies and butts. Believe it or not, but no boobs and butts and minimal foul language goes a long way for a lot of parents.

Well, did you ever check mods for Skyrim on Nexus? The top downloaded ones are full of sexy content, which clearly shows the demand. You have your perspective, which I can respect, but nevertheless it's a US biblebelt perspective, I think, which isn't representative for sentiments across the Atlantic f.e. In Europe we really have a different opinion on sex and nudity. Over here gore and explicit displayal of violence, dismemberment of body parts and such are considered to be offensive, sex and a nice pair of boobs are not!
Posted By: Alexandrite Re: Adult content in BG3 - 06/05/21 03:23 AM
Originally Posted by Ragnarök
In Europe we really have a different opinion on sex and nudity. Over here gore and explicit displayal of violence, dismemberment of body parts and such is considered to be offensive, sex and a nice pair of boobs are not!

Exactly, and IMHO that is a much healthier perspective on life. I too grew up in Europe - I went to museums and art galleries from a young age, saw beautiful statues and artworks depicting the human form, it was just culturally acceptable. Even religious art often depicts and deals with sex, nudity, rape, etc - all of which are mentioned in the Bible. These are human issues for people to talk about, not sweep under the rug and hope they go away. And there is no shortage of breasts depicted in religious art from the Renaissance period.

Restricting human sexuality so much that even education about it is denied to young people (as in many places in the USA), is what creates some of the problems GM4Him describes above in the first place! Twisted media portrayal of sex, sexual addiction, etc. Sex is a natural human impulse, and it's only fair to explore it through stories. Also, if teens want media with sexual content, then trust me they will find it.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Adult content in BG3 - 06/05/21 03:29 AM
Again, Im not talking mods or fade to black sex. KOTOR faded to black. You kinda knew Bastilla and the main were having a romantic interlude. BG1 and 2 did very well. Again, fade to black. NWN 1 and 2, no sex. Did well. Final Fantasy 7 gets somewhat close, but again, no actual sex scenes.

Guys. I get it. Really. You want to keep the sex in the game. Im actually pleasantly surprised BG3 wasn't more sexually graphic and such. Like I said, I almost didn't buy it because I didn't want to play a game with that stuff in it. So Im happy they at least made it so someone wasn't just throwing themselves at you or stripping naked in front of you to entice you.

Im basically saying 2 things. I think the game would actually do better from a sales perspective if it removed sex scenes, and if they don't remove them maybe the characters could just respond more to you soliciting them as opposed to them soliciting you.

Basically, if you want sex scenes then pursue it, but maybe don't slap players who don't want it in the face with it. If sex in a game is something a player has to pursue, then when people review the game and say what the content is, they can say that the game is actually pretty tame as long as you don't do xyz to trigger sex. Then parents may be more open to letting their teens and such play it. See what Im saying? Like it or not, Larian is limiting their market more by having sex scenes.

And, btw, I did some other research on this too. It may be unfortunate, but America is still the country where the most video game sales occur, so it is kinda important to reach that market.
Posted By: CJMPinger Re: Adult content in BG3 - 06/05/21 03:30 AM
Originally Posted by Ragnarök
Originally Posted by GM4Him
As for the other things I said, I know it to be true. Call people weak for succumbing to temptation, but the fact is that there are people, LOTS of people, who struggle against sexual addictions. Sex scenes in games and movies and stuff for them is like an alcoholic trying to give up drinking. It is hard because it is everywhere in media.

So that's why I said, it might not hurt you, but it hurts others. There are people who would REALLY love to play BG3, but they won't because the game has sexual content even available to them. I also know people who would never let their teens even consider a game that has any potential sex scenes in it.

You might think it's not a lot, but there's a reason Skyrim sold more than all the others. It was mature, but it didn't have naughty bits. Even young teens could play Skyrim because parents weren't worried their horny teen might see boobies and butts. Believe it or not, but no boobs and butts and minimal foul language goes a long way for a lot of parents.

Well, did you ever check mods for Skyrim on Nexus? The top downloaded ones are full of sexy content, which clearly shows the demand. You have your perspective, which I can respect, but nevertheless it's a US biblebelt perspective, I think, which isn't representative for sentiments across the Atlantic f.e. In Europe we really have a different opinion on sex and nudity. Over here gore and explicit displayal of violence, dismemberment of body parts and such is considered to be offensive, sex and a nice pair of boobs are not!

To be fair Skyrim modding goes pretty dang far. I do not know what it is about Lovers Lab, but they have the best modders working on the weirdest things. And I say this as a weirdo who plays with certain furry mods installed.

Also going to respond to GM4Him here, parents not letting their teens play a game for certain content is valid. It is up to the parent to determine what is suitable for their kid, and it is up to parents to research a game before buying it for their kid.
I was raised with nearly no censorship, only a few things were restricted from me (and I eventually got into them on my own anyways cause where there is a will there is a way). I played Bioshock where you can engage in childmurder. Mass Effect and Dragon Age with those sex scenes. One of the first games I remember playing was Diablo, and found myself enthralled in the dark aesthetic. My most played RPG is actually Oblivion, which definitely watered a lot of ES down but there was things in it that fascinated me as a kid.
However, I recognize that another parent wouldn't let their kid play any of those for any reason, and that is respectable. BUT, I don't think that is any reason to restrict a game from having the content that makes it mature.
Posted By: Alexandrite Re: Adult content in BG3 - 06/05/21 03:34 AM
Originally Posted by CJMPinger
I recognize that another parent wouldn't let their kid play any of those for any reason, and that is respectable. BUT, I don't think that is any reason to restrict a game from having the content that makes it mature.

Exactly. It is up to each person/player or family to decide for themselves what is appropriate media consumption for them. It's why we have ratings.
It is not for us to cry "remove sex and nudity from this game!" simply because of the views of a few (not even all!) states of America.
Posted By: CJMPinger Re: Adult content in BG3 - 06/05/21 03:50 AM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Again, Im not talking mods or fade to black sex.

I listed things out more to prove that in RPGs, games that have more explicit content are still big sellers, and are on the list despite Nintendo based RPGs on the list. Tangentially, even Nintendo has more... explicit games, like how they bankrolled Bayonetta 2, whereas Bayonetta has quite a bit of sexual content with how the main character strips a lot and is proud of her body... Beyond that, I actually find Bayonetta to have a very rewarding combat system (only DMCV is better and I have bias cause V is the perfect character for me with summoning and so much combo potential) and has REALLY DAMN GOOD designed angels (which are the enemies, but they really do look like biblical angels that would ask to not be feared with some mechanical and porcelain elements thrown in).

Edit: And I don't think anyone is mad, this conversation is fairly civil and most people are just bringing up counterpoints. At least I don't read any malice in anything.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Adult content in BG3 - 06/05/21 03:52 AM
Originally Posted by Alexandrite
Originally Posted by Ragnarök
In Europe we really have a different opinion on sex and nudity. Over here gore and explicit displayal of violence, dismemberment of body parts and such is considered to be offensive, sex and a nice pair of boobs are not!

Exactly, and IMHO that is a much healthier perspective on life. I too grew up in Europe - I went to museums and art galleries from a young age, saw beautiful statues and artworks depicting the human form, it was just culturally acceptable. Even religious art often depicts and deals with sex, nudity, rape, etc - all of which are mentioned in the Bible. These are human issues for people to talk about, not sweep under the rug and hope they go away. And there is no shortage of breasts depicted in religious art from the Renaissance period.

Restricting human sexuality so much that even education about it is denied to young people (as in many places in the USA), is what creates some of the problems GM4Him describes above in the first place! Twisted media portrayal of sex, sexual addiction, etc. Sex is a natural human impulse, and it's only fair to explore it through stories. Also, if teens want media with sexual content, then trust me they will find it.

Oh I agree on many accounts. But I also disagree on a few.

1. You may have a few misconceptions about American sex education. Maybe 40 years ago things were more taboo, but today unless you are in a private school you get full blown sex ed.
2. Some sweep it under the rug, and yes, unfortunately many of those are Christians who view talking about it as naughty. That actually is rather unBiblical especially since, as I had stated previously, it is literally the first commandment ever given to humans by God.
3. Sexual problems exist in all countries. It really has nothing to do with sex ed. Sex is a very base human desire. It is very strong, and moreso in some than in others. Just as some are weaker to alcohol and others stronger, so some are weaker to sexual desire than others. For some, sex has no real hold on them. For others, it is very much a problem.

But, anyway, whatever. I didn't really mean to cause a fight or argument, so I hope you aren't all getting mad. It's hard to tell with chat. I just like clean fantasy games, and I love this one. I just wish I could promote it more to people I know who also love clean fantasy. I actually can, to a certain degree, so Im happy for that. I can tell people that its pretty clean as long as you avoid convos with your party on celebration night. You have no idea how relieved I am that that is all I have to do is avoid those convos...though knowing Shadowheart is actually more romantic might mean that maybe I don't have to avoid that one....for now...

😁
Posted By: Alexandrite Re: Adult content in BG3 - 06/05/21 04:00 AM
No one is getting mad - I am definitely not. smile Actually this is has turned into a very interesting conversation, and everyone has dealt with it respectfully - the mods must be relieved! smile
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Adult content in BG3 - 06/05/21 04:10 AM
Originally Posted by Alexandrite
Originally Posted by CJMPinger
I recognize that another parent wouldn't let their kid play any of those for any reason, and that is respectable. BUT, I don't think that is any reason to restrict a game from having the content that makes it mature.

Exactly. It is up to each person/player or family to decide for themselves what is appropriate media consumption for them. It's why we have ratings.
It is not for us to cry "remove sex and nudity from this game!" simply because of the views of a few (not even all!) states of America.

My point wasn't that they shouldn't have sex scenes because of parents not owning up to making sure their kids don't play games like this. My point was that IF they removed sex from the game they might get more buyers BECAUSE parents might let their kids play it. Im talking about expanding the audience.

But regardless. I was just stating my opinion and thoughts on it and the research I've done. The game lists were just RPGs I found online and how well they sold. The point is that as you decrease the maturity level, you increase your market potential...to a certain degree. Certainly, BG3 would be awful as an Everyone game like Mario or Pokemon, but those sell so much because the market is broader.

Please don't get me wrong. BG3 is a more mature game with more mature themes. I wouldn't want them to mush it all up and make it sappy and lame. I'm just saying that games like Skyrim, which is also mature, will always have more market potential just because they don't have full blown sex scenes.
Posted By: Boblawblah Re: Adult content in BG3 - 06/05/21 04:11 AM
Yea, I know my type of romance is never going to be in this game lol. A sideways glance, a smile, a touch on the shoulder. Nope. just banging after killing lots of things. I get it, people like sex. It's just a little disappointing.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Adult content in BG3 - 06/05/21 04:11 AM
Originally Posted by Alexandrite
No one is getting mad - I am definitely not. smile Actually this is has turned into a very interesting conversation, and everyone has dealt with it respectfully - the mods must be relieved! smile

Ok. Cool. Just wasnt sure. Hard to tell.
Posted By: Ragnarök Re: Adult content in BG3 - 06/05/21 04:37 AM
Originally Posted by Alexandrite
Originally Posted by Ragnarök
In Europe we really have a different opinion on sex and nudity. Over here gore and explicit displayal of violence, dismemberment of body parts and such is considered to be offensive, sex and a nice pair of boobs are not!

Exactly, and IMHO that is a much healthier perspective on life. I too grew up in Europe - I went to museums and art galleries from a young age, saw beautiful statues and artworks depicting the human form, it was just culturally acceptable. Even religious art often depicts and deals with sex, nudity, rape, etc - all of which are mentioned in the Bible. These are human issues for people to talk about, not sweep under the rug and hope they go away. And there is no shortage of breasts depicted in religious art from the Renaissance period.

Restricting human sexuality so much that even education about it is denied to young people (as in many places in the USA), is what creates some of the problems GM4Him describes above in the first place! Twisted media portrayal of sex, sexual addiction, etc. Sex is a natural human impulse, and it's only fair to explore it through stories. Also, if teens want media with sexual content, then trust me they will find it.

So true! I actually think Australians in general are culturally much closer to Europe, because of England and the Commonwealth history. Unfortunately I've never been to Australia, yet. As a sidenote you do have quite the most poisonous creatures in the whole world, I mean you've got sharks, crocodiles, snakes and deadly spiders - critters we gladly don't have in Europe to this extend. I'm not sure if I really wanted to go swimming in Australia f.e.... And if you're out of fuel in the Outback, you're dead! But nevertheless I'd like to see Sidney and Ayer's Rock someday. ;-) Anyway I like Australians, they tend to be less pc, than most other people from Western countries, including Germany. I respect that a lot, tough and brave people!

We do share roots with the US of course, all whites in the US actually derive from Europeans, but still there is a cultural gap nowadays, which is undeniable. Please don't take this as anti-American statement, I visited the States twice already and I enjoyed it. Americans tend to be very friendly people. And there is so much more to see. But still some things are handled differently over here than over the big pond. It might have had a reason why religious fanatics of all sorts had to leave the continent some centuries ago... just, saying... silence (We had our cruel religious motivated wars in Europe like the 30 Years War in Germany (1618-48), with a death toll of 1/3 of the overall German population back then between Catholics and Lutherans or the Bartholomew's Day Massacre in France on Protestant Huguenots and much more. The Early Modern Age history of Ireland is also on that list. So we wanted to get rid of potential troublemakers, who were considered to be a danger to the newly found common sense, which simply provided peace between the different Christian confessions…)

Originally Posted by GM4Him
Again, Im not talking mods or fade to black sex. KOTOR faded to black. You kinda knew Bastilla and the main were having a romantic interlude. BG1 and 2 did very well. Again, fade to black. NWN 1 and 2, no sex. Did well. Final Fantasy 7 gets somewhat close, but again, no actual sex scenes.

Guys. I get it. Really. You want to keep the sex in the game. Im actually pleasantly surprised BG3 wasn't more sexually graphic and such. Like I said, I almost didn't buy it because I didn't want to play a game with that stuff in it. So Im happy they at least made it so someone wasn't just throwing themselves at you or stripping naked in front of you to entice you.

Im basically saying 2 things. I think the game would actually do better from a sales perspective if it removed sex scenes, and if they don't remove them maybe the characters could just respond more to you soliciting them as opposed to them soliciting you.

Basically, if you want sex scenes then pursue it, but maybe don't slap players who don't want it in the face with it. If sex in a game is something a player has to pursue, then when people review the game and say what the content is, they can say that the game is actually pretty tame as long as you don't do xyz to trigger sex. Then parents may be more open to letting their teens and such play it. See what Im saying? Like it or not, Larian is limiting their market more by having sex scenes.

And, btw, I did some other research on this too. It may be unfortunate, but America is still the country where the most video game sales occur, so it is kinda important to reach that market.

A mature rpg game requires some sexy content in it (soft-core) nowadays. The overwhelming majority expects and appreciates that. It's like a TV-series on Netflix or Amazon Prime. Do you think f.e. Game of Thrones would have been as successful without the sex and honestly occasionally very sexy bare boobs in it? Sure the writing was excellent, the plot stunning, the dialogues great and the actors overwhelming, but still sex and nudity was the salt in the soup. Millions across the globe enjoyed it and GoT was definitively not prude, despite being a fantasy story made in the US.I loved it and so did my girlfriend! GoT had a perfect mixture and attracted a lot of people, who usually aren't interest in fanatasy, so did Witcher 3 for the rpg gaming genre.I think some Puritan parents really don't matter concerning sales... The modern worldwide audience enjoys this kind of content, if it is well done. But concerning BG3 it's okay, that the player has to pursue it. It shouldn't jump on everyone's face, that's okay. Just like the quite funny Ogre and Hobgoblin, scene, it's your choice to open the barn or not. So far you can avoid any romance in BG3 pretty easily by dialogue in the camp. I did get some gay vibes in my plathrough by the companions, but I didn't react to those. I have no propblem with gays, to be clear, I'm just into women and women only and therefore a homosexual romance won't happen in my game.
So I don't really know what you're complaining about? I didn't see bare boobs, yet in the game f.e. (I didn't play the Minthara route, yet) But If I pursue a romance with a hopefully better/more attractive option than Shadowheart in the future, I actually would like to see some sexy content... It would be a shame if Larian chickened out here and gave in to Wizards of the Coasts, who might have too much an eye for the sentiments of the US biblebelt. That's my only fear for this otherwise great game.
Posted By: footface Re: Adult content in BG3 - 06/05/21 04:45 AM
Originally Posted by Boblawblah
Yea, I know my type of romance is never going to be in this game lol. A sideways glance, a smile, a touch on the shoulder. Nope. just banging after killing lots of things. I get it, people like sex. It's just a little disappointing.

Oh come on, Shadowheart's scene was very well made.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Adult content in BG3 - 06/05/21 08:07 AM
My oh my ...
One left you people unchecked for just a few hours and you go soooo wild.
Im proud of you all. laugh

Originally Posted by GM4Him
There are people who would REALLY love to play BG3, but they won't because the game has sexual content even available to them. I also know people who would never let their teens even consider a game that has any potential sex scenes in it.
This is probably the only true argumend i found it all this, directly related to actual topic. laugh

But you could also say that there are many people who would love to play BG3 ...
... if there wasnt naked organs ... like opened skull, or intestines on the ground.
... if there wasnt refugess in Druids groove ... i dunno where you are from, but the word "refugees" was a big topic in center Europe before Corona, so some people can still take it personaly.
... if there wasnt all the violence in general ... starting from fight, ending with torturing the prisoners.
... if there wasnt presentation of extraterrestrial life forms ... it might seem funny to some, but i actualy heared about people who claims they were abducked by Aliens and since it was traumatical experience for them, they therefore demands to cancel all stuff that popularize aliens.
... and im sure we would be able to find many more examples of things that "could" be trigger for someone.

In the end, the important part is that, if we remove all those potential triggers ... we would get the game, where our heroes are sitting by the (not lighted!) fire with everyone other, and dont interact at all ...

It reminds me a joke i write on Facebook some time back.
Backstory: We were discuising DnD races and wich one would we pick for out first Baldur's Gate 3 gameplay in EA, estimately about a week after it was released.
I was posting there picture of my Dwarf female warrior, with her magnificent beard and i was praising Larian with words "finaly im able to create proper Female Dwarf", since i do believe that both Dwarf genders should have some facial hair ...
I was told by multiple people that im acting offensive, since there are actualy womans "somewhere in the world" who suffers from hormonal instability that cause them to actualy grow beards. Then, after some discusion this "joke" was born:

Quote
I decide to create Female Dwarf warrior ...
But then i was told that create Females with facial hair is unsensitive from me ...
And i was ashamed of myself.

So i decided to create Halfling ...
But then i remembered that there are midgets ... who might take it personaly ...
And i was ashamed of myself.

So i decided to create a Tiefling ...
But then i noticed, they have tail ... and remembered that there are people who have rotated several links at the end of the spine ...
And i was ashamed of myself.

So i decided to create a Half-Elf ...
But there are lot of people who have mixed blood of two ethnicities ...
And i was ashamed of myself.

So i decided to create an Elf ...
Believe or not, after some research i did find out that some people actualy have health problems that cause something like pointed ears ...
And i was ashamed of myself.

So i decided to create a Drow ...
But then i realized that basicaly they are just Elves with dark skin ...
And i was ashamed of myself.

So i decided to create a boring Human.
Nobody had problem with my character and i was finaly able to play.
But then i read Larian article, where they say they are unhappy with players who created boring vault dweller.
And i was ashamed of myself.

So i decided to unsinstal Baldur's Gate 3 ...
Now everyone is happy. Except me.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Adult content in BG3 - 06/05/21 12:29 PM
Some of you have some interesting views of Americans. smile It makes sense to me, though. Americans can be very... how shall I put it... difficult at times. Funny. I used to watch House Hunters International and the people who were the most annoying were Americans. Knit-picky and fussy and everything having to be a certain way... You could tell the realtors were gritting their teeth in the episodes, biting their tongues and trying really hard not to just tell the Americans to go jump off a cliff.

Anyway... Like I said before, I don't want Larian to dumb down BG3 so that it sucks. As someone, can't remember who on this post, said, or at least they said something similar, each game and each story has its place. Not every story is a Star Wars no real blood and guts and so forth story and not every story is a Game of Thrones. If they choose to include sex scenes and such, well, that's just what the game is. People who don't like it can go find another game.

But I do hope they keep the naughty bits at the level that it currently is now, if nothing else. Right now, it is very tame compared to what I was afraid of, so I'm glad. I do think Larian has been wise so far with it. There's enough sexual content to appeal to those who like it, but yet it is tucked away enough that those who don't want it simply don't have to trigger it. I don't have to approve of the sexual content, and I might think the game would sell more copies if they didn't include it, but it is what Larian decides that it is. If they go more raunchy, though, I will be very disappointed because I won't play it anymore. As long as they keep it at the level it is at, where the player has to trigger the naughty bits, I will continue to play.

And still, I'd like a bit more emphasis on the romance aspect of it rather than the sex aspect of it.
Posted By: Sabra Re: Adult content in BG3 - 06/05/21 01:37 PM
Interesting to see the differing opinions on Americans here, haha. I'm American but live in Europe now. I grew up in a non-religious household. Was taught the birds and the bees very early and there was never any shame around sex or nudity at home. I was never limited in what I could watch or play and I'd be taken to see graphic movies in theaters and such. As a kid I'd just go "yuck!" and close my eyes during sex scenes lol. My mom is an artsy / hippy type though, so my experience maybe wasn't the norm. I did go to a catholic school though, not cause of any religious affiliation but because it was better than the public school in town, so I got a taste of the other end of the spectrum. I don't identify at all with the "prude" American thing but I guess my upbringing was a lot more open. I've been living in Europe for a few years now and don't feel much different... if anything I'm more at home!

I have to agree with what many have said here, specifically Dez's arguments. I actually had a conversation about this with my boyfriend last night after reading this thread. We've both played mature games with sex scenes throughout our relationship but we've never even questioned it. We've made jokes and talked about who we romanced in games like The Witcher, Cyberpunk, and BG3, and why we liked those particular characters, but it never crossed our minds that it could be a problem for us or that it gives us unrealistic expectations. We concluded that we just view those experiences as fantasy and entirely separate from our relationship. For us, it's like talking about why we liked certain characters or scenes in movies or books. We did a playthrough of BG3 together and I teased him for going after Shadowheart while he teased me for simping over Astarion.

Personally, I like the sex scenes as part of the narrative. I wouldn't mind if they were more graphic or less. Minthara's scene is the spiciest and, while I was a little surprised at first, I wouldn't change it. I felt it was fitting of her character and the lore around drow society and appreciated the bit where you can peer into her fears, which I thought humanized her a bit. Astarion's scene is also well done, and as an abuse survivor I found it relatable in subtle ways that many stories lack. Shadowheart's scene isn't a full sex scene yet, but as many have stated, it entirely fits who she is, rounds out that aspect of her, and leaves it open for more development. You can learn a lot about someone, their desires, fears, and vulnerabilities, in sex. I hope all the sex scenes will provide more dimension and insight into the characters. A big thing to keep in mind right now though is that it is early access. I believe many opportunities for flirting are simply not in the game yet. From what I've seen in the datamined content, there are some potentially romantic moments that haven't been implemented. Some patience might be needed for now. wink

I feel many of the issues being brought up here are individual and personal and I would prefer it not affect the stories Larian is trying to tell. Just my opinion though! Interesting to see the civil discussion happening here. smile
Posted By: Niara Re: Adult content in BG3 - 06/05/21 02:05 PM
Originally Posted by Sabra
Minthara's scene is the spiciest and, while I was a little surprised at first, I wouldn't change it. I felt it was fitting of her character...

As an aside to the conversation, but I really do sincerely hope that you say this only in reaction to those saying it's too much, or else say it in jest... There is so much, that is so, so terrible about that scene, the least of which is how the action part of the scene runs entirely against her supposed character portrayal and the dialogue that sets it up.

There's a thorough break down of the scene, that takes it apart and illustrates why this *cannot* under any circumstance be allowed to pass as the yard stick for the rest of the intimate scenes that are planned... I'd encourage anyone who hasn't yet to please take a look at the thread while you discuss the portrayal of sex scenes in this video game... I'd consider it important reading. You can find the thread Here. Please have a look if you can.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Adult content in BG3 - 06/05/21 09:07 PM
I do find this conversation pleasant because no one is jumping down anyone's throat. So I appreciate that. I also enjoy this conversation because I am getting to see a different perspective on things.

You all are on one side of a spectrum. It is like an RPG...lol. All of you who say that sex has no negative impacts on you and that you can freely discuss such things with spouses and significant others and so forth and all is great and well. You are like characters who have a skill with a bonus of +10. This skill helps you avoid issues with these things. You don't cheat on your significant others and resist doing bad things because of your resistance level. You don't fight over it or argue about it or whatever, and it doesn't impact your expectations for your significant other.

On the other end of the spectrum, there are those who have no proficiency in this skill. Difficulty level is 15 and they get no bonuses to resist having issues. For whatever reason, messed up childhoods with broken families or some adult in their life messing with them or they had emotional issues or chemical imbalances or whatever the reasoning - for there are many reasons - they are adults and have very little resistance. It is hard for them, and they struggle daily against it. I deal with them because I am like a cleric, trying to help the hurting. I try to help them overcome their issues because I care about them.

The true Gospel of Jesus Christ is not what many think it is. It is not what most Bible-Thumpers drill into people. The Gospel of Christ is about salvation from sins offered to all people, even those who do the worst crimes. If they will turn from those crimes, they can receive that salvation. But how can they truly turn from such things if they are always tempted by them and it has such a power over them? Truly, God understands their struggles, and He knows their hearts. So if they are willing to fight against such temptations to try to live wholesome lives, He does not hold their weaknesses against them. He is faithful and just to forgive them of their sins because their heart is right.

But with sex all over everywhere, it is hard on them. Again, for them, it is like an alcoholic with people waving booz under their noses all day long. They are trying to resist, but it is a constant temptation. So, it torments these pour souls and damages their relationships, their self-esteem, etc.

These are not few and far between people. There are many who suffer like this. If there weren't, there wouldn't be so many sex crimes in the world.

These are the people I am sympathetic to. These are the people I am concerned about. This is why I try to oppose sex in games and shows and such. It is not because if you watch these things you are damned to Hell. It is because they do hurt others, even if they don't hurt everyone.

That said, again, I find this entire conversation interesting because it is a different perspective. I am used to the one side of the spectrum and not the other.
Posted By: mr_planescapist Re: Adult content in BG3 - 06/05/21 10:32 PM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Ok. Let's just talk RPGs only. How many of these have sex scenes?

Im not talking romance. Im talking actual sex scenes.


Individually, The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim is the best selling RPG of all time.

Pokémon - 368 million
Final Fantasy - 154.5 million
Dragon Quest - 81 million[2]
Dragon Quest - 81 million[3]
The Elder Scrolls - 52 million
Borderlands - 48 million[4]
Lineage - 43 million
The Witcher - 40 million
Fallout - 38 million
Mario RPG - 28.7 million
Mario RPG - 28.7 million
Kingdom Hearts - 25 million[5]
Megami Tensei - 23.5 million[6]</nowiki>[7]
Tales - 20 million[8]
Dragon Ball RPG - 17.2 million
Mass Effect - 16.5 million
Super Robot Wars - 16 million
World of Warcraft - 14 million
Souls - 14.7 million
Yo-kai Watch - 13 million[9]
Mana - 12.3 million[10]
Fable - 12 million[11][12]
Guild Wars - 11.5 million
Persona - 11.1 million[13]
SaGa - 9.9 million[14]
Inazuma Eleven - 8 million[15]
Chrono - 5.4 million[16]
Baldur's Gate - 5 million[17]
Nier - 5 million<ref>Nier 1 - 500k - SourceNier Automata - 4.5 million Source </ref>

BG1 and 2 also did not have sex scenes. You had the option to have sex with someone, but it was fade to black.

We all know best RPG ever made was Planescape : Torment. Yet Im not seing it in BEST SELLING RPG game list of all time...
I guess its overrated trash. Just like Arcanum.
BEST SELLING means shit in a world were everyone's opinion is valid and where there are NO experts.
Mobile games rule the gaming world in terms of numbers. Shit sells.
Posted By: Ankou Re: Adult content in BG3 - 06/05/21 11:39 PM
The technology to even have a sex scene that isn't polygons colliding is extremely recent AND the average age of gamers has been increasing. It's absurd to look at sales of games from 20 years ago to justify that it isn't potentially a meaningful artistic choice. There are numerous Oscar winning films that have sex scenes, for instance, and books, and it's always the creator's choice.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Adult content in BG3 - 07/05/21 01:10 AM
You know, I didn't make up the list. I pulled it from a website detailing best selling rpgs. I wasn't making it up, and it was for 2021, as in how much money they've made to date.

But my point wasn't whether there was an interest or not. My point is that sex limits the market potential. Take out the sex and the game can be marketed to way more people and thus make more money.

Here's just an example of what I mean:

You create a game. You want to sell it to 50 people in a room. Of those 50 people, there are 10 adults who like sex in games, 10 are adults who don't like sex in games, 10 are teens, 10 are kids and 10 just don't care. All of them like fantasy. I realize this is an unrealistic scenario, but my point isn't how real the scenario is. My point is that of the 50 people, how many are going to buy the game if there is sex in it? How many might you sell it to if there is no sex in it?

Potential maximum sales if sex is in the game = 20-30
Potential maximum sales if sex is not in the game = 50

Yes, again, I admit that it's a rough and unrealistic scenario, but my point is that if you have the sex in it, you limit the game because you definitely won't get the 10 adults who don't like sex and you probably won't get most of the 10 kids. You will certainly get the 10 who like sex in games and maybe some of the 10 who just don't care. Of the teens, you might get all, but you might get none depending on how limiting their parents are about games with sex in them.

However, without sex, you could potentially appeal to them all.

That was my whole point in posting the Best Selling RPG games. They sell more because their market is more broad to more potential buyers. They can get people who like sex in games, people who don't like sex in games, teens, kids, and people who just don't care. If the game is good enough, sex isn't a bonus. It is a marketing liability.

THAT said. If you are truly marketing to those who like sex in video games, then you will be more certain to get ALL of those who like sex in video games if you do the sex in the game right. So, if you are looking for sure sales, and you don't care if you appeal to the broader audience, then by all means sex in the game is going to get some sales for sure. BUT, they had better do it right or they will not even get those sales, AND again you are limiting your overall marketing potential.

I just think this game is good enough without it. Therefore, it would sell more if they didn't include it. That's the bottom line of why I was saying it...well...and I don't really like games with sex in it...but that's my personal opinion.

I really like this game. I want it to do well. I want more games like this game. I want them to sell lots of copies. Therefore, I want them to remove the sex from it so it has more selling potential. Make sense?

I know...you may like it and not want them to remove it, but isn't what I'm saying sensible at least? You know, something to consider?
Posted By: Ankou Re: Adult content in BG3 - 07/05/21 03:40 AM
Sex sells. You can't argue against an aphorism. It's like the golden rule of marketing.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Adult content in BG3 - 07/05/21 03:49 AM
Lol. I know sex sells. There wouldn't be a massive porno market if it didn't. I'm just saying that once you include sex in something, you limit your audience.

If the story is good and the gameplay fun, and there is no sex, the audience is everyone. If the story is good and the gameplay is fun but there is sex, the audience is everyone minus those who disapprove and a good number of kids and teens, etc. because their parents won't let them play it.

People who like sex in games may buy a game without sex because the game is good, but people who don't like sex in games will not likely buy a game with sex in it even if it is good.

Same with extreme horror, for that matter. Parents are more likely to let their kids play Teen games than Mature. Even Mature games they may let them play if not TOO Mature.

But once you cross the line, you lose part of your potential audience.

But whatever. If Larian just wants their audience to be Mature and they don't care about those who don't like that stuff, that's up to them. Im just making a point that things without naughty bits CAN sell to a broader audience.
Posted By: Ragnarök Re: Adult content in BG3 - 07/05/21 08:57 AM
I agree, it’s good to have a civil discussion about this topic. I know that I have made some pointed remarks about Americans in this thread, but they were meant also jokingly and therefore to be taken with a grain of salt. Americans have reacted very relaxed on those so far, congrats! I also know that the US as a country is a very mixed bag and I actually can differentiate. Nevertheless in general religion still plays a bigger role over there than it does in Europe (f.e. during political campaigns many politicians in the US refer to the bible or want to show their voter base, that they are pious, while in Western Europe hardly any politician would do so), but on the other hand the US f.e. is also the country with the largest porn industry by far worldwide. Those contradictions are normal, I guess any country in the world has got contradictions in itself.

That said, I believe very much in self-responsibility. Therefore I don’t like censorship or any attempts trying to nanny/patronize me, because I’m adult and can very well decide for myself and also make my own judgements on different topics after some profound research. Making mistakes, doing things which might turn out to be harmful also belong to everyone’s life, because eventually you might learn from your mistakes and get out of it as a strengthened personality. Sure not everybody, some ruin their lives to a point of no return with drugs, crimes, abusive relationships, whatever. But is the society or popular culture as such always responsible or are these actually personal issues, which then should be treated as such on an individual level?

Therefore I don’t think it’s a good idea in general to censor everything which might be a problem for personalities, which can’t handle specific topics or might trigger their mental illness. If you do, where would you begin and where to stop without alienating the vast majority, which don’t have these problems? The majority of people today actually are quite relaxed on some (soft) erotic content displayed in video games or movies and happen to enjoy it.

Concerning children it’s up to the parents to decide, simple as that and of course it depends on the age of your children, which content might be appropriate and which isn’t. But again these happen to be quite different around the globe. In Europe blood & gore is considered to be much more harmful for the sanity of your children than an occasional naked body for example. The latter is quite natural, while excessive bloodshed and violence shouldn’t be.

I know, that you can’t protect your children from everything. They will get into contact with things, which may not be appropriate for their age, be it in school or at a friend’s house, whatever. The most important thing is giving your child love and showing that you care and that it always can rely on you. Education is important, too and training their intellectual capabilities, so that they can make their own decisions as teens and adults. Being overprotective isn’t helpful, but having no rules at all, will be harmful in the end, too. It’s not easy to find the golden middle ground, but I think most parents do that about right more or less.

Back on topic, BG3 already has got a mature rating so far. So did Witcher 3 and f.e. the TV series Game of Thrones. Both were huge successes worldwide, despite different mentalities around the globe. So these did quite a lot of things right... I’m not suggesting to add content to BG3, which would result in an “adult only” rating. I’m fine with the mature rating. I just thought, without having played the Minthara route, yet, that the sexy content in the early access is quite underwhelming so far for reasons already mentioned several times in this thread, and wanted to know, if there is planed more and what we can expect?
Posted By: Niara Re: Adult content in BG3 - 07/05/21 11:40 AM
To GM4Him, All respect to your position, of course, but your reasoning is simply not sound. You're exercising a form of personal confirmation bias with the way you give your examples, and it doesn't hold true.

I can turn it around and show you what I mean, here, have a look:

Originally Posted by GM4Him
You create a game. You want to sell it to 50 people in a room. Of those 50 people, there are 10 adults who like sex in games, 10 are adults who don't like sex in games, 10 are teens, 10 are kids and 10 just don't care. All of them like fantasy. I realize this is an unrealistic scenario, but my point isn't how real the scenario is. My point is that of the 50 people, how many are going to buy the game if there is sex in it? How many might you sell it to if there is no sex in it?

Potential maximum sales if sex is in the game = 20-30
Potential maximum sales if sex is not in the game = 50

Okay... set aside the fact that a game that is geared in a way that those 10 kids will enjoy is mostly not going to be geared in a way that those 10 adults will enjoy, and all of the other similar factors that influence the concept...

Originally Posted by Niara
You create a game. You want to sell it to 50 people in a room. Of those 50 people, there are 10 product-purchasers who just want to play a fantasy game, any fantasy game (Group A). 10 who aren't specifically interested in sexual content in their games, but aren't turned off by it (Group B). 10 who aren't specifically interested in sexual content in their games, but give extra merit to games with sexual content (Group C). 10 who are actively put off by it, and require a very good product to purchase in spite of it (Group D). 10 who are only going to consider a game at all, if it has adult content (Group E).

So, in this scenario, a game without any sexual content will sell to groups A, B and D and MAY pick up group C IF the game is otherwise good enough – the bar is higher for them without that content.

A game with sexual content will sell to groups A, B, C and E, and MAY pick up some of group D if the game itself is good enough.

Potential maximum sales if sex is in the game = 40-50
Potential maximum sales if sex is not in the game = 30-40

It's very easy to set up an example that favours your stance, but it's not intellectually honest unless it's a fair example, and neither yours, nor mine in return in this case, are. Every kind of content addition both limits and expands your potential target audience in some way. Nothing is purely limiting, or purely expanding.

Quote
I just think this game is good enough without it. Therefore, it would sell more if they didn't include it.

That simply does not follow unless you beg the question of a lot of other underlying premises that you cannot take a given. In short, no, what you're saying does not track, and ultimately isn't sensible without a pre-established viewpoint that already agrees with it.

Putting anything into a game is a balance of the amount of people it will draw, versus the amount of people it will turn away; the rating a game has is an important factor in this as well. You do not, for example, count the pre-teen children as potential purchasers in your analysis when the game has a mature rating.

There is a target audience that would not have considered this game without the promise of romance and/or sex; people who glanced at it with disinterest and who only became interested when they learned that they were going to create detailed intimacy between the characters as part of the story romance. The question is simply whether the number of people who will try the game out when they otherwise would not have, with the added promise of this content, is greater than the number of people who definitely would have bought the game but now definitely will not, based on the promise of this content existing in it. We can all have an opinion on what the answer to that question is, but ultimately none of us has any factual data to provide that makes any answer certain. What we can say is that Larian and/or Wizards (probably mostly just Larian) have those figures and projections, have most certainly run the analysis and have, at least initially, come to the conclusion that the addition of it will improve their figures in the long run. They might be right or wrong about that, but at the very least they are in a better position to make that decision than any of us.

For the record: I'm one of those people in the group that really wants the intimacy to be done well, because as it stands, I'm not likely to want to play the game at all if it's not. The game itself is not good enough, as it presently stands. It's not a game I'd really be interested in playing, in this state and in this style, unless there's something to keep me here, such as solid romance and intimacy as part of the game's story.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Adult content in BG3 - 07/05/21 12:40 PM
"For the record: I'm one of those people in the group that really wants the intimacy to be done well, because as it stands, I'm not likely to want to play the game at all if it's not. The game itself is not good enough, as it presently stands. It's not a game I'd really be interested in playing, in this state and in this style, unless there's something to keep me here, such as solid romance and intimacy as part of the game's story."

OK. I'm not trying to argue with you, so hopefully you won't think that. I totally get most of your points, but this quote above is what I'm really trying to get at. IF the game is good enough, sex is not needed in it for it to sell. People would still buy it and play it if sex was not included because the game is good. That is one of the main reasons I brought Skyrim into it as an example. That game sold incredibly well because it was a good game and it also sold incredibly well because it could reach a broader audience because it wasn't considered too mature for younger audiences. I know many prude American parents who even let their kids own Skyrim because the worst things in that game were heads getting lobbed off.
That, in and of itself, didn't make it necessarily okay for young viewers in my book, but my point is that a lot of parents and such felt that it was an okay game to let their kids own because it didn't have naughty sex bits. Therefore, a wider audience was reached and the game sold MORE because it was good enough without sex.

IF the game isn't good enough, and it is only selling because it has sex in it, then sex in the game is absolutely required. However, it will likely only sell to those who like sex in games and not as many copies to others. THAT was the point I was making even if my example was a terrible one.

All this to say:

Good Game = Sex not necessary in game
Not-so-good Game = Sex might be necessary in game to sell

THIS is not saying that just because sex is in a game that it isn't a good game. Games like Witcher 3 (never played it because of its content) are obviously good games as you've all pointed out. Otherwise, they wouldn't have sold so many copies. So I'm not saying because it has sex scenes or whatever that it isn't a good game and that it needed sex scenes to sell. However, my point is more that I wonder how sales would have done on Witcher 3 if it hadn't had sex scenes.

Who knows? Maybe you're right. Maybe Witcher 3 would have bombed without sex scenes. Maybe I'm totally off base. I've just observed that those movies and video games that sell more are ones that appeal to a wider audience. Star Wars sells more movie tickets because it is created as a mature series of movies, but the maturity level is tame enough for kids. Therefore, it isn't just mom and dad going to see Star Wars, but they take the whole family with them. Meanwhile, a movie series like John Wick (love this series btw) is extremely popular and is doing really well at like what, $580 million overall worldwide. Star Wars has been around for 40 years, mind you, but the point is that John Wick's sales are limited because it is for a specific audience only and not for a broader audience.

That's all I'm saying.

This is my final note on it, though. John Wick would not be John Wick without its full blown crazy mature content. Star Wars would not be Star Wars if it had a greater maturity level. Both would be ruined if they went their opposite directions.
Each has their place, and I get that.

But BG3 is kind of right on the border. It could be just a bit more mature and just reach the more limited mature audience, or it could be just a bit less mature and reach a broader, less mature audience as well.

Either way, they need to improve the game so that it IS good enough without sex to appeal to its audience. Don't you think it's sad that one of the only things keeping you playing the game is its intimacy content? Shouldn't they focus more on making the game more fun from every other aspect instead of focusing on making it more sex appealing? Am I really that far off base when I say that they could reach a greater audience with better gameplay and less sexual content?

I don't know. Maybe it's just me since I'm the only one out here saying it. Either way, it doesn't really matter what I think. They're going to do what they're going to do, and whatever their decision I have to live with it. If they go more sexual in content, I'll have to determine whether I'm still going to play it or not. If they go less sexual in content, I won't have to worry about making such a decision.
Posted By: CJMPinger Re: Adult content in BG3 - 07/05/21 01:02 PM
Personally I don't think sex would save a bad game. If I was to compare a game to cooking, sex would be like one spice (not a blend, just one spice) while the game is the whole dish. If the rest of the dish tastes bad or the focus is way too much on the spice that is sex, then the game isn't likely going to sell well. Leisure Suit Larry died as a series for a reason. But used right, a spice can really enhance the flavors of the dish or highlight aspects of it. In this case, sex could really highlight aspects of a character that are laid bare during intimacy, like what they fear, the past written on their skin shown privately, or even just their culture. However it has to be handled right to be good, and to continue the food metaphor, not everyone likes their food spicy so being able to avoid it on the part of the player is usually good.
Posted By: Anfindel Re: Adult content in BG3 - 07/05/21 01:43 PM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Some of you have some interesting views of Americans. smile It makes sense to me, though. Americans can be very... how shall I put it... difficult at times. Funny. I used to watch House Hunters International and the people who were the most annoying were Americans. Knit-picky and fussy and everything having to be a certain way... You could tell the realtors were gritting their teeth in the episodes, biting their tongues and trying really hard not to just tell the Americans to go jump off a cliff..

Hate to break it to you, but in many of those House Hunter shows, the "Realtor" is actually a friend of the house seeker - that saves the Producers the cost of a fee to the Realtor. The "house-hunters" are also directed to come up with ridiculously nit-picky complaints to "create drama". And the actual house they choose to buy or rent was actually bought or rented well before the show was taped - they view a bunch of houses, again just to create content for the show - they will even remove the house hunters belongings from the premises, putting it all in temporary storage, just to make sure you can't tell it's already been bought/rented.

Leaving that aside - this whole discussion just brings to mind a period in the 80's when a certain percentage of the population insisted that D&D games, including computer games, were a form of devil worship and a corrupting influence on youth - so I guess we better just turn Baldur's Gate 3 into a safe game of Pong, so as not to lose that group of buyers.

As far as I am concerned, the Witcher games would have been far inferior to what they were if the sex (and violence) was removed to satisfy certain potential buyer populations.
Posted By: CJMPinger Re: Adult content in BG3 - 07/05/21 02:31 PM
Originally Posted by Anfindel
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Some of you have some interesting views of Americans. smile It makes sense to me, though. Americans can be very... how shall I put it... difficult at times. Funny. I used to watch House Hunters International and the people who were the most annoying were Americans. Knit-picky and fussy and everything having to be a certain way... You could tell the realtors were gritting their teeth in the episodes, biting their tongues and trying really hard not to just tell the Americans to go jump off a cliff..

Hate to break it to you, but in many of those House Hunter shows, the "Realtor" is actually a friend of the house seeker - that saves the Producers the cost of a fee to the Realtor. The "house-hunters" are also directed to come up with ridiculously nit-picky complaints to "create drama". And the actual house they choose to buy or rent was actually bought or rented well before the show was taped - they view a bunch of houses, again just to create content for the show - they will even remove the house hunters belongings from the premises, putting it all in temporary storage, just to make sure you can't tell it's already been bought/rented.

Leaving that aside - this whole discussion just brings to mind a period in the 80's when a certain percentage of the population insisted that D&D games, including computer games, were a form of devil worship and a corrupting influence on youth - so I guess we better just turn Baldur's Gate 3 into a safe game of Pong, so as not to lose that group of buyers.

As far as I am concerned, the Witcher games would have been far inferior to what they were if the sex (and violence) was removed to satisfy certain potential buyer populations.

Many people still consider Dungeons and Dragons to be a form of devil worship. I remember in bible club (that is what I called it, I forget what its name actually was) one of the organizers talked about how Pokemon and Yugioh was evil and that we should tell our parents that so we wouldn't have such corruptive pieces of paper. People often like to project evil onto something so they have an easy thing to blame for perceived faults, and D&D is one of the more famous scapegoats of Christian evangelism.

That said, my last character wasn't exactly good and if I described it to a pastor they would pray for my soul, since the things my 4e character did would not constitute as good:
He started a cult, became a demon, consumed greater demons to become a demon lord, defiled an angel and consumed it, consumed Dispater a highranking devil of hell, and consumed a god of rot. He (accidentally) caused an apocalyptic event in Hestivar (a heaven equivalent) and with some conniving ended up with an entire district of the place under his control because he solved the problem and most didn't know he caused it, and since the guard all died in the event he so generously appointed replacements with a whole legion of Legion Devil Legionnaires. He corrupted and used enchantment on enemies, arguably giving them fates worse than death. And worst of all, he was labeled a champion of bahamut before bahamut was euthanized (cause of a lot of things going wrong, he did not kill bahamut thankfully), so he was basically in a position where he instead of being redeemed kinda was allowed to do a lot of his evil demonic stuff with relative impunity (with the caveat that he was genuinely better than tiamat and he did have some things limiting him making him the lesser evil). Ultimately it all worked out cause even though he was a demon, he did end up creating a sort of peace, so nobody likes him, but also nobody wants to start another bloodwar. So essentially he became a demon, got people to worship him, and invaded heaven while being "blessed" by a god. And the final nail in the coffin, he was considered a desire demon (minor evil god of desire at the end, Scales of War was a wild ride and the players took it off the rails) so he would play with people's temptations...
Posted By: dwig Re: Adult content in BG3 - 07/05/21 02:41 PM
To put this in slightly different context, why don't we each state how inclusion (or disinclusion) of sex scenes would affect our OWN video game purchasing decisions. I'll start...

I have no moral objection to sex in video games, but I think that it is distracting and often badly done. I play games on a system with dual monitors, so if I **really** want to see sex while I am in the middle of a video game I can just look it up on the other monitor and have it fit my personal preferences with a much finer degree of control than in a video game.

That being said, including sex in a video game would not prevent me from buying it, as long as the rest of the game systems appeal to me. If the rest of the game is borderline then "includes real sex (lol)" would push me towards not buying, but it would by no means be a primary motive for the decision.

Regarding BG3, most of us have already purchased... I am critical of some of the video game aspects of the game, but there is enough here that I would buy again IN SPITE of the sex.

So, is there anybody here would would refuse to buy if they removed the sex? What about refuse to buy (if they could remake that decision) because of the sex? My personal guess is that the sex (or lack of it) is not really the most salient feature for most people in actually deciding how to spend their video game money, but I'd be happy to hear arguments to the contrary.
Posted By: Argyle Re: Adult content in BG3 - 07/05/21 03:17 PM
"a period in the 80's when a certain percentage of the population insisted that D&D games, including computer games, were a form of devil worship and a corrupting influence on youth"

Well, the Succubus illustration in the original Monster Manual was pretty provocative. For CRPG's though, it's really all about the challenges. If sex is involved with some sort of challenge or story objective, then go for it. Graphic representation is another thing ... sometimes it is more effective to let the observer's own mind fill in the details.
Posted By: Nyloth Re: Adult content in BG3 - 07/05/21 03:21 PM
Originally Posted by dwig
To put this in slightly different context, why don't we each state how inclusion (or disinclusion) of sex scenes would affect our OWN video game purchasing decisions. I'll start...

I have no moral objection to sex in video games, but I think that it is distracting and often badly done. I play games on a system with dual monitors, so if I **really** want to see sex while I am in the middle of a video game I can just look it up on the other monitor and have it fit my personal preferences with a much finer degree of control than in a video game.

That being said, including sex in a video game would not prevent me from buying it, as long as the rest of the game systems appeal to me. If the rest of the game is borderline then "includes real sex (lol)" would push me towards not buying, but it would by no means be a primary motive for the decision.

Regarding BG3, most of us have already purchased... I am critical of some of the video game aspects of the game, but there is enough here that I would buy again IN SPITE of the sex.

So, is there anybody here would would refuse to buy if they removed the sex? What about refuse to buy (if they could remake that decision) because of the sex? My personal guess is that the sex (or lack of it) is not really the most salient feature for most people in actually deciding how to spend their video game money, but I'd be happy to hear arguments to the contrary.


Sex is not most important element ofc, but in fact game rating depends not only on sex scene. Also, romance can become a most important element for someone. That's why, even if you watch sex on a second monitor, it won't be quite the same experience. People are attracted to romance itself, relationship with character and reaction of other characters to this relationship, not sex cutscene .
Posted By: dwig Re: Adult content in BG3 - 07/05/21 04:10 PM
Originally Posted by Nyloth
Sex is not most important element ofc, but in fact game rating depends not only on sex scene. Also, romance can become a most important element for someone. That's why, even if you watch sex on a second monitor, it won't be quite the same experience. People are attracted to romance itself, relationship with character and reaction of other characters to this relationship, not sex cutscene .

Yes, but many people are pushing back against GM4HiM's suggestion that they just fade to black. You can certainly have a romance without showing the sex act.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Adult content in BG3 - 07/05/21 04:28 PM
I would compare sex in video games to the taste of crushed ice ...
It works without it, it still serves its primary purpose ... but when strawberry juice is added, it's a little better right away. :P
Posted By: Argyle Re: Adult content in BG3 - 07/05/21 05:00 PM
Raspberry would be good, too.

Sextistics:
Percentage of time an average human thinks about it = 28%
Percentage of time an average human performs the act = 0.0003%
Posted By: Nyloth Re: Adult content in BG3 - 07/05/21 05:21 PM
Originally Posted by dwig
Originally Posted by Nyloth
Sex is not most important element ofc, but in fact game rating depends not only on sex scene. Also, romance can become a most important element for someone. That's why, even if you watch sex on a second monitor, it won't be quite the same experience. People are attracted to romance itself, relationship with character and reaction of other characters to this relationship, not sex cutscene .

Yes, but many people are pushing back against GM4HiM's suggestion that they just fade to black. You can certainly have a romance without showing the sex act.

Because potentially this is additional content in cutscenes. There is no point delete this content if it already exists, but if it didn't exist initially, then no one would worry about it.
Posted By: Boblawblah Re: Adult content in BG3 - 07/05/21 06:09 PM
Originally Posted by dwig
To put this in slightly different context, why don't we each state how inclusion (or disinclusion) of sex scenes would affect our OWN video game purchasing decisions. I'll start...

I have no moral objection to sex in video games, but I think that it is distracting and often badly done. I play games on a system with dual monitors, so if I **really** want to see sex while I am in the middle of a video game I can just look it up on the other monitor and have it fit my personal preferences with a much finer degree of control than in a video game.

That being said, including sex in a video game would not prevent me from buying it, as long as the rest of the game systems appeal to me. If the rest of the game is borderline then "includes real sex (lol)" would push me towards not buying, but it would by no means be a primary motive for the decision.

Regarding BG3, most of us have already purchased... I am critical of some of the video game aspects of the game, but there is enough here that I would buy again IN SPITE of the sex.

So, is there anybody here would would refuse to buy if they removed the sex? What about refuse to buy (if they could remake that decision) because of the sex? My personal guess is that the sex (or lack of it) is not really the most salient feature for most people in actually deciding how to spend their video game money, but I'd be happy to hear arguments to the contrary.

good question

For me, I actually enjoy pornography and sex games (very hardcore) but in terms of regular games, I usually don't enjoy sex because of how off it usually feels. People throw in a titty and call the game "mature", or for this game in particular, spend a lot of time talking about story boards that describe various hardcore sex acts. It's just weird to me for a developer and fans to spend so much time focusing on such a relatively minor aspect of a game.

as for whether or not sex would affect my purchasing of a game, no, it wouldn't really have an effect, unless it's unskippable/trying to make an ideological point, but at that point, it's not about the sex. Sexy characters in games definitely make a game more attractive to me, if I'm honest, that's part of the reason I don't like the companions at all, none of them are remotely attractive. I'm a straight guy and my options are an alien who hates me or an emo girl that hates me. Yay..?

If they removed the sex I would be happy because that would show me that they're more intent on building an actual game, instead of just encouraging the less mature instincts of buyers (yes, I recognize that I'm immature in wanting attractive companions)
Posted By: Ankou Re: Adult content in BG3 - 07/05/21 07:01 PM
I view this the same way I view an ending game cinematic, only it's a sort of end of romance success cinematic. Sure, you could fade to black and have a text scroll tell you what happens after you beat the game, or they could show it, because games are a visual medium and it's more satisfying this way.
Posted By: Ragnarök Re: Adult content in BG3 - 07/05/21 07:09 PM
I believe it had been mentioned before: a bad game won’t become any better with erotic content included. It will still be a bad game.
But a good game with reasonably done erotic content in it, will become an even better game in my opinion. Now what means "reasonably done"? It means not every character should be willing to get intimate with the player character just like that. It should require some flirting & teasing during the game, some deep talks via dialogues, in short: romancing, which eventually might lead to a sexy scene or two.
For some other npcs this might not be fitting, because they have a much more direct personality. Then it’s okay, if they are quite open or blunt about their desire. Just keep it reasonable or somewhat realistic.

Again I’d refer to Witcher 3, which was an excellent game and the sex made it even more interesting. No hardcore scenes were shown by the way, just some soft-core and naked bodies. There was even a quite hilarious romance ending in it, if the player seduced both Triss and Yennefer during the game, they would teach the player a lesson by initiating a threesome, but will leave Geralt handcuffed and unsatisfied on the bed, while walking out of the room and in the end you lose both. So the game punished the player if he played with the feelings of both, instead of choosing one. It was also possible to not romance anyone in the game afaik. So Witcher 3 really had it all, even prostitution, but nobody forced you to do it.

Having just a fading black screen would be quite disappointing for a modern rpg game in opinion. That used to be the state of the art quite a couple of years ago, but today a lot of people expect more from the mature rating. If the game is really good, I’d still buy and play it without any erotic content in it, but concerning a game like BG3, which is supposed to be the next AAA fantasy rpg, I think it would be really missed potential. People are expecting more from such a title and a modern successor to the Baldur's Gate series/legacy.

Originally Posted by Ankou
I view this the same way I view an ending game cinematic, only it's a sort of end of romance success cinematic. Sure, you could fade to black and have a text scroll tell you what happens after you beat the game, or they could show it, because games are a visual medium and it's more satisfying this way.

Indeed!

Originally Posted by Boblawblah
Sexy characters in games definitely make a game more attractive to me, if I'm honest, that's part of the reason I don't like the companions at all, none of them are remotely attractive. I'm a straight guy and my options are an alien who hates me or an emo girl that hates me. Yay..?

I'll second that. There is just one option for a straight guy with a more "common" taste so far, which is Shadowheart. She even isn't very attractive, just mediocre optically. Furthermore her personality is below-average. That's quite a disappointment so far. Therefore I really hope for better options to come.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Adult content in BG3 - 07/05/21 07:25 PM
Addressing House Hunters: Whatever. Point was that Americans look like jerks and difficult to get along with in this show. I've seen memes about Americans as well that come from other countries. It also does not paint Americans in a good light. That was more my point.

As for devil worship and so forth, I'd like to make some points of clarification here:

There is a difference between the Law of God and the Law of Man. Jesus Himself pointed this out in Matthew 15. He warned against being like the Pharisees all the time. They did things like condemn Jesus' own disciples for not washing their hands before they ate. Jesus pointed out that washing ones hands before eating was not a Law of God. It was a Law of Man that they created and enforced upon people as if it was a Law of God. However, they DID break God's Law that they should HONOR THEIR FATHER AND MOTHER.

Unfortunately, many Christians throughout the ages have done exactly this same thing. They have done the opposite of what Christ warned them not to do. They started implementing their own laws and traditions and rules instead of what the Bible ACTUALLY says. These individuals have given so many people this perception that Christians are all a bunch of strict, damning people to Hell, no one is allowed to have any fun kinda people.

This is not Biblical, nor is it every Christian who upholds such things. It is just the most vocal Pharisee-style people who say they are Christians who give all Christians this bad name.

This is an example of a Law of Man: If you see sex on TV or in movies or video games, or if you see violence in TV or movies or video games, you have sinned and therefore need to repent right now. If you die right now before you repent, you are going to Hell." Another Law of Man, meaning a law that people created and not God, is that if you even think lustfully towards someone, you have sinned. This second one was taken out of context and has been promoted by many Christians. However, the Bible is very clear that a sin is an act, not a thought. You can have sinful thoughts, and those thoughts can lead to sin, but until you actually commit an act of sin, it is not a sin. This is why James 1:15 says, "Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death." Death in this case means negative consequences. When Jesus said that if you think lustfully you have sinned, He was meaning that you should draw the line long before you commit an act of sin. If you read the WHOLE passage, it is clear that He was trying to set a new standard that was different from the Pharisees. He was trying to teach people HOW to avoid sin. You should draw the line way back at when you first start thinking sinful thoughts. You should not dwell on sinful thoughts and then try to not commit the sinful act. In Jesus' example, He was actually referring to the sin of adultery. He was not calling lust a sin. Lust can lead to sin, but it is not a sin. What Jesus was actually trying to teach is that if a person wants to not commit adultery, they should not allow themselves to dwell on such thoughts. As soon as you start lusting after another man's wife, you should immediately cast those thoughts out of your head and reject them. Don't dwell on them, because if you dwell on them they will lead you to sin. All it takes is a brief moment of weakness, an inappropriate moment where a person gets too close to someone they shouldn't and because they entertained thoughts of adultery, they give in. Resisting the thoughts early gives people more of a resistance to sin. THAT was what Jesus was teaching, and there are many other passages of scripture that support this that I won't throw at you because I'm sure most don't care.

Now, this IS a Law of God (1 Corinthians 6): Everything is permissible for me, but not all things are beneficial. Everything is permissible for me, but I will not be enslaved by anything [and brought under its power, allowing it to control me]. The Biblical teachings therefore state that through Christ, all sins are forgiven. Sin is therefore no longer what we are supposed to be focusing on. Christians are supposed to focus on Christ, and what He did for us - meaning He died on the cross to forgive our sins and pay the price for our moral crimes. We are supposed to teach others that because Christ died for our sins, He paid the price for our sins so that we don't have to. What is the price for sin? Death which then leads to Hell and the Lake of Fire. Jesus died so that though we will still die, He will resurrect us from the dead so that we can live forever with God, free from sin and guilt and shame forever.

Therefore, we are free from sin and shame, but only if Christ is our King. Since He paid the price for our debts, our sins, our moral crimes, only if we commit ourselves to Him will our sins be forgiven. After all, what king would forgive a criminal of their crimes if they are not willing to even acknowledge him as king and if they actually have no intention of ever ceasing in their crimes? A king would be a fool to forgive a criminal of a crime and let him roam around a city full of his citizens if that rebel was not willing to accept that king as his/her own king and try to live according to what that king commands. No king in their right mind would allow a murderer, for example, who he knows is going to kill again, to wander freely around his kingdom amidst his beloved citizens. Therefore, only if he knows beyond a doubt that the murderer will not kill again, and he knows the murderer is willing to learn how to behave better, will he allow that murderer to go free. If an earthly king would be a fool if he let a murderer dwell amongst his people when that criminal is not willing to acknowledge him as king and try to live by the king's laws, why would God allow such things? Those who will not accept Him as King will not respect His laws and His ways. Therefore, how can He allow them to dwell in His Eternal Kingdom forever?

So, in short, the true Christian serves Christ because they want to. They try to not do things that are considered morally wrong because they are grateful to Christ for forgiving them of their moral crimes. They try to avoid further moral crimes because they recognize that sin leads to negative consequences which then leads to pain and suffering in their lives and the lives of their loved ones. They no longer avoid sins because they are afraid they are going to Hell if they don't. They try to avoid sins because they recognize that God's ways are good and our ways are not. They try to avoid sins also because they are thankful for their sins being forgiven. THAT is the sign of a true Christian according to the Bible. They are people who live a life of gratitude and thankfulness towards their God, for they believe that He died for them and forgave their sins.

And what is Christ's primary command as King? Love God first. His Second Command is to love one another as we love ourselves.

Therefore, any Christian who goes about condemning others for playing video games with sex and violence in them, or for playing Pokemon, or for whatever else Christians love to condemn people for, these people are not operating in the Spirit of God. That is one of the whole reasons I'm going into all this. I want people to be aware that the Bible clearly states that those who are operating in the Spirit of God are those who display (Galatians 5): "love [unselfish concern for others], joy, [inner] peace, patience [not the ability to wait, but how we act while waiting], kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such things there is no law."

So I want to make sure everyone is fully understanding of this because one of my missions in life is to fight against this misconception about Christians. I don't like it when Christians are all lumped into the whole "You can't ever have fun" category because "if you have fun you are a sinner and are damned to Hell."

All this to also say I am not condemning BG3 for having sex in it. I'm not condemning anyone on this thread for wanting sex in the game. Again, even the Bible teaches that God gave humanity sexual desires and then commanded them to have sex and lots of children. I, of course, would advise that sex be removed for many reasons, but I am not condemning anyone for playing a game with such things. Other people who say they are operating in the Spirit of God might condemn you for it, but they would be wrong to do so.

My conscience does not bother me at all about playing a game like this. I play it the way I want and avoid the stuff I think would not be good for me. You see, the way it is supposed to be for Christians is that all things are permissible. I can do whatever I want because my sins are forgiven. However, because I love and respect God, I recognize that not all things are good for me to do. The things He says we should not do are things that are good for us to not do. Even though I could, if I wanted to, because I am forgiven of sins, I recognize that those things are not good both for me and those in my life. So I do not do the things that I recognize are not good for me. I also do not just do bad things because I am sincere in accepting Christ's sacrifice. You see, those who are sincere do not just flippantly continue to do things that are against Christ's teachings. Those people are hypocrites just like the Pharisees. So a sign that a person is not truly a Christian even if they say they are is that they flippantly sin and then try to pretend they are not sinners because they say they accepted Christ as their savior.

As a case in point. I have no problem admitting to you that I also played the evil path in BG3. My female Drow Fighter went about killing all the druids and tieflings. I wanted to see what the evil path was like. Yeah, I didn't care for it myself, as I'm not really keen on evil paths. But I played it to get the experience, and I don't feel guilty about it. Was it a sin? No. Why? Because it is just a game. I didn't ACTUALLY kill someone. Could someone actually kill someone because of the influence of the game? I suppose, but I have never actually seen any valid evidence about such things. No one I've ever known has said, "I killed someone or beat someone because of the influence of a video game." Oh sure, people blame video games for violence, but before video games ever existed, violence was a thing. You can't really blame media for that. I also like John Wick and have no problem with it. In fact, I find that movie series to be incredible. I can't wait for number 4! I don't know what it is, but watching John Wick ridiculously blow the crap out of people is just fun.

Again, though, it's all fantasy and make believe. If someone really did that stuff, I'd be sick to my stomach to watch such things.

Likewise, if I did watch the sex scenes in BG3, it would not be a sin. Why? Because I didn't actually commit any acts of sexual sin. It is just a game and pretend. Therefore, it is not a sin. This is also something I am wanting to make clear. I am not in any way saying that it is a sin and condemning anyone for it.

I know this is like a lengthy sermon, but it is only because some have taken to kinda sorta bash Christians and such because I brought it into this thread. I wanted to make sure everyone fully understood the truth about it because there are too many misconceptions about the truths in Christianity. So, again I repeat, I am not doing condemning anyone or even BG3. I am not trying to force my Christian beliefs on BG3 either, even if you think I am.

What I am doing is:

1. Offering a SUGGESTION that they remove sex from the game. If the game is good enough, it doesn't need it. If Larian wants to appeal to an even bigger audience, removing sex from the game would allow them to then appeal to a larger group. You may not agree, but that was just my suggestion and opinion. I've seen many Teen games with dark themes and story and even content that is really borderline, but parents will let their kids (teens usually) play those things because they aren't "too bad".

2. Offering a different point of view. Most people, when they talk about including things like sex in a game, don't think about how that might impact others. I do. I brought it up because, as I said in a different post, I know people who struggle with sex in any form of media including art, poetry, TV, video games, music...you name it. So I bring it up to offer this different perspective because so many were telling me that sex cannot hurt people and others. I've personally known people who can say that this is not true. It may not hurt you and those you know, but it can hurt people. I don't expect Larian to remove sex from the game, honestly, just because of this, but it is something to consider. It is a reason why I suggested removing sex from the game.

3. I personally don't like games with sex in them. That is my personal preference, I realize, and I respect that you probably disagree. But it is my personal preference nonetheless. I do wish this game didn't have sex in it at all. I don't think it needs it. I think it's shaping up to be a great game, and I would feel better if they didn't have it there at all. In my opinion, and again, just my opinion, Larian wouldn't have to change any other content in the game except the unnecessary sex stuff. Some might think they should remove more of the violence an disturbing other elements, but that doesn't affect me. I realize sex doesn't affect you, and it is the same for you as violence is for me. That's fine. I just prefer no sex in games. I respect your difference of opinion.

Anyway. Enough said. Hopefully this is received as I am intending it to be received; with respect for everyone, as just a chance to clear up some misconceptions, and that I'm NOT trying to force Larian to do anything. Everything I have posted has been suggestions. Nothing more. I'm not trying to fight and argue and push and urge Larian to do anything. I am making suggestions, and if they don't do them, I'm not going to cry and complain and yell at them or anything for it. I respect their decision in these matters. It is, after all, their game. If the game does well, they benefit. If the game does poorly for any reason, they are the ones who suffer the most.
Posted By: Ankou Re: Adult content in BG3 - 07/05/21 09:01 PM
Look, I didn't come here for some exegesis. It's not that serious.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Adult content in BG3 - 07/05/21 09:28 PM
lol. Hey. Whatever. Just responding to some comments about prude Bible belt Americans, pastors who condemn people to Hell for playing video games, etc.

Just setting things straight because people have lots of misconceptions about Christians because of these stereotypes.
Posted By: Umbra Re: Adult content in BG3 - 07/05/21 09:30 PM
I'm only here for the computer game, and maybe some minor titillation in said game.
Posted By: CJMPinger Re: Adult content in BG3 - 07/05/21 11:35 PM
Honestly, this one topic has gone through so many subjects so quickly, while still being grounded in the subject of Adult Content in BG3, it is kinda impressive.

You can probably call me out for having bias by saying this as one, but Americans are people like everyone else, and we have the nice people and rude people like anywhere else.
Also there is a reason I specified Evangelism with Christianity, as that is a dominant form of it where I live, so I have had experience of people trying to preach to me that certain things are evil and that I shouldn't be engaging with them because I am Christian, or even certain aspects of myself were evil. I am very aware that Christianity as a whole is actually very diverse and filled with many different sects that hold different interpretations of the Bible. Heck, there are sects that handle Snakes during their sermons and practices. However, personally, as a Christian, I am very critical of modern churches and modern Christianity, and more on topic, the rampant condemnation of fantasy I heard a lot of when I was younger. But that criticality is not to Christianity as a whole so much as individuals and individual sects as I do think its is unfair to judge an entire group by a few, but it still stands that a specific collection of individuals calling themselves Christians would, in my experiences, consider violence and sex in a game as equal and sinful.

That all said, your perspective is definitely appreciated, and I hope my response is received well. From what I got from the overall conversation, I think making the scenes harder to get, in other words more natural and requiring actual romance with the character, would likely be best for all involved for multiple reasons. I doubt Larian would get a T rating even if they removed the sex as they would have to tone A LOT of this game back and remove whole sequences, and even have to get voiceactors back to redo lines to fit the new rating (especially with how it feels like US raters seem to be even stricter with language and what people talk about than content shown). Many people seem to want and enjoy it, and I personally see it as a part of some of the characters, Laezel and Astarion specifically as it does actually reveal things about the character. However, also, many don't want it dropped on them and would rather play an RPG where they are not dropped into content that they personally dislike, and thus be able to play the game nearly unaware that such content is in the game.

And ultimately DnD is about player choice, so it would stand to reason exposure to sexual content should be a choice on the player's part, like how one can mark to have no blood effects so they are not exposed to excessive blood/violence so should they have to explicitly pursue sexual content to receive such content.
Posted By: Niara Re: Adult content in BG3 - 08/05/21 03:15 AM
I mean no ill-will when I say that I feels as though GM4Him is spending an inordinate amount of effort talking about their personal religion, in order to say that personal religion has no place in this discussion, and also to say that their personal dislike of sex in video games has nothing to do with their personal religion, by way of talking about their personal religion at length. I don't feel that belongs in this thread; I feel it would be better for the thread to take that degree of religious belabouring to private messages instead, please.

Quote
To put this in slightly different context, why don't we each state how inclusion (or disinclusion) of sex scenes would affect our OWN video game purchasing decisions.

For me personally... I'm longing for a good D&D video game, and we haven't had one in a long time. I'm concerned that the current game is what Larian is presenting because ultimately, it is NOT shaping up to be a D&D video game at all. Just another D:OS with a forgotten realms twist and flavour.

However, that brings my attention to the question of "What CAN this game be for me, if not what I was hoping it would be?"

The answer is, it can be a forgotten realms adventure where I can make characters and roleplay as them, at least in my own mind... it can be a *Chance* to explore roleplay as a variety of characters with a physical, visual medium that is to date unparalleled... I'm a roleplayer, and an author... and the written romance and intimacy of characters I'm fond if is important and moving to me... and I would dearly, DEARLY love a chance to experience representations of them engaging in romance to their tastes, and intimacy to their tastes, along with the rest of their adventure, in a visual, player-controlled media.

The game itself looks like it cannot, and will never be the game that I felt we were initially promised and sold on. It isn't ever going to scratch that itch for a proper 5e D&D video game. what is left is a chance to get emotionally involved in the romances and intimacies of the characters I make for the game... We currently have no real choice for such a thing, and this game offers a chance at experiencing that as no game previously has, from my perspective... so if it is NOT going to do that, and do that well, then there isn't much left here for me.

It should always be player choice, of course - player choice is why, traditionally in these games, the player character always has to make the first intimate move in romance - the player must signal the game that that is what they want, and the game shouldn't push it on the player without them doing so. That's something the current BG3 is tripping over and needs to fix.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Adult content in BG3 - 08/05/21 03:48 AM
Nah, Niara. I really was just wanting to clearly state my own stance on things. I noticed some offhanded comments from a few folks and just wanted to set the record straight. Besides, some seemed to be enjoying the convo, so I was explaining where I was coming from.

I agree a lot with your above comments about this game. I am still hoping they implement some sort of 5e difficulty or something that will make it more of a 5e experience. I would actually love to see more romance too. I would like to see more true romance where some sort of relationship is being built.

For example, I enjoyed Jaheira's romance because it was harder and more meaningful. I had her in my party all through BG1 and 2, and SOD. I grieved with her for Khalid and felt a deep connection to her. That was a great romance story and it didn't need a sex scene.

Don't get me wrong. A sweet clean romantic scene is exactly what I'd like to see between characters I feel have built a connection, but right now there really isn't any that I feel genuinely connect.

I also want more character building with everyone. I feel so disconnected from everyone in this party. I instantly connected with Minsc and Jaheira and Khalid and even Imoen. I want that here too. I like the characters, but I need something more to draw me in to connect with them.

If they have the player trigger the romance, that would be better. I Still, of course, think the game is better off without a true sex scene, but whateves. I know I'm not going to win that argument.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Adult content in BG3 - 08/05/21 12:07 PM
Yeah. No problem vometia. I'm done anyway.

I'm just gonna go back to being Fat, Ignorant, Racist, Picky as hell, Backstabbing - HEY I get advantage for that right - Violent, attitude towards SEX OMG, puritanism at its best lol.

But, just for the record, I am fat, I've studied many cultures and historical records, sciences, religions, have a college degree, I go to a multicultural church with several African American pastors and close friends, I tend to be somewhat picky, but Im getting better, I dont think Ive ever backstabbed anyone, I hate actually killing things, and I am not a puritan. Oh, and I don't have an attitude towards sex.
Posted By: Innateagle Re: Adult content in BG3 - 08/05/21 06:36 PM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Yeah. No problem vometia. I'm done anyway.

I'm just gonna go back to being Fat, Ignorant, Racist, Picky as hell, Backstabbing - HEY I get advantage for that right - Violent, attitude towards SEX OMG, puritanism at its best lol.

But, just for the record, I am fat, I've studied many cultures and historical records, sciences, religions, have a college degree, I go to a multicultural church with several African American pastors and close friends, I tend to be somewhat picky, but Im getting better, I dont think Ive ever backstabbed anyone, I hate actually killing things, and I am not a puritan. Oh, and I don't have an attitude towards sex.

Originally Posted by GM4Him
I hate actually killing things

Originally Posted by GM4Him
actually killing things

Inner Hannibal's showing.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Adult content in BG3 - 08/05/21 08:30 PM
He said Americans are violent. I like killing things in games. I don't like killing things in real life.

Is that more clear? 😒
Posted By: CJMPinger Re: Adult content in BG3 - 08/05/21 08:40 PM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
He said Americans are violent. I like killing things in games. I don't like killing things in real life.

Is that more clear? 😒

I think the other guy (eagle) was just making a joke. Besides, who hasn't become a serial killer in a video game? Hasn't everyone just played a game so long they pass out cause they were already exhausted, only to wake up with a large part of the game done. Their character surprisingly rich and with a mansion in Solitude. Also having married a dark elf mage from the College of Winterhold. And to shortly discover they filled the empty room/basement full of various dead dark elf women... Just me...? Oh...

(More seriously, I don't remember how any of that happened, just that it was messed up and I did genuinely question if I was ok sanity wise cause... Honestly, thinking I did any of that was messed up cause I really don't like to do the evil path in videogames, dnd it's fine but videogames I tend to be as good as I can be. My character in Skyrim went from a normal adventurer to Elder Scrolls Bluebeard... At least I did not wake up to him being a cannibal, Hannibal style.)
Posted By: Adiktus Re: Adult content in BG3 - 08/05/21 08:49 PM
Karlach's language alone would be enough to get this an adult rating!

(For the record, I'm no prude, I've enjoyed all the grown-up stuff, and think on the whole they've done a good job of using it proportionately and non-gratuitously. The only bits that made me wince a bit were the pointless gore of the various arms, legs, intestines and heads dotted around the landscape. If I can't build my own girlfriend out of them or feed them to a gnoll for a favour, why are they even there?)
Posted By: CJMPinger Re: Adult content in BG3 - 09/05/21 09:38 AM
Mm, kinda unfortunate. Though despite their hostility, there is something to look at in their opinion, mainly that they consider sexual content and/or nudity in a videogame as pornographic and thus something that shouldn't be in a videogame.

To be quite honest, I never considered sexual content in videogames to be appealing on that front, always just considered it part of the plot, mechanics, character, or aesthetic of a game. And if adult content was for porn, modders could and would do it a lot better than developers who need to stay at a M rating.

And there is something to be said on haphazardly, that is, if the content is added badly then no one will be happy. Cause if it is handled poorly and shoved into the game for those who don't want it, it'll be glaring and be detrimental to the game. And if handled poorly, even if implemented decently, it could be glaring to those who actually want it. It could have complete character breaks, bad writing, very bad animations, forced on the player, or even just really strange for time and place. So as much as they argue for absolutely no implementation of sexual content in BG3, I argue that Larian actually needs to be careful with how they implement characters at their most vulnerable and be considerate of those who really don't want to see it on their screens.
Posted By: Innateagle Re: Adult content in BG3 - 09/05/21 11:12 AM
Originally Posted by CJMPinger
Mm, kinda unfortunate. Though despite their hostility, there is something to look at in their opinion, mainly that they consider sexual content and/or nudity in a videogame as pornographic and thus something that shouldn't be in a videogame.

To be quite honest, I never considered sexual content in videogames to be appealing on that front, always just considered it part of the plot, mechanics, character, or aesthetic of a game. And if adult content was for porn, modders could and would do it a lot better than developers who need to stay at a M rating.

And there is something to be said on haphazardly, that is, if the content is added badly then no one will be happy. Cause if it is handled poorly and shoved into the game for those who don't want it, it'll be glaring and be detrimental to the game. And if handled poorly, even if implemented decently, it could be glaring to those who actually want it. It could have complete character breaks, bad writing, very bad animations, forced on the player, or even just really strange for time and place. So as much as they argue for absolutely no implementation of sexual content in BG3, I argue that Larian actually needs to be careful with how they implement characters at their most vulnerable and be considerate of those who really don't want to see it on their screens.

You described the Minthara scene, that sweet drow on halfling action.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Adult content in BG3 - 09/05/21 12:31 PM
Again, all this is proving is that sex in the game can hurt the game more than help it. All my personal feelings aside, if the game is good, it doesn't need it. If not, it isn't worth playing anyway.

And if sex in the game isn't done right, it is going to only make the game less appealing to players.

So, like I've said before, no sex, bigger potential audience. Sex in game, more likely to limit audience.
Posted By: footface Re: Adult content in BG3 - 09/05/21 04:25 PM
I just googled the Minthara romance scene. Looks spicy.
Posted By: Arne Re: Adult content in BG3 - 09/05/21 05:40 PM
Originally Posted by Ragnarök
Im through with the early access version by now, but I must ask, where is the adult content? BG3 is an inspiring game, which really could be the next big rpg. I love it already and I'm very much looking forward to the next updates, it's well done. But I really miss things which happen or don't happen depending on your actions like in Witcher 3. Witcher 3 was quite open concerning nudity and adult content, which is part of the explanation for its popularity. Of course Witcher had a lot more qualities than that, but nevertheless I really would hope that BG3 offers no less. After all Larian is no prude US company, where gore is fine but sex not. We Europeans are no prudes and Larian is located in Belgium, Europe. CD Projekt Red from Poland has set a quite high benchmark. What's your stance on this Larian? The early access version unfortunately is quite disappointing concerning adult content so far. Are you planing to add much more or are your chickening out and leave it to modders? This is an honest question, I'm really a fan of your game so far, you did a very good job, but BG3 could be much more in the rpg genre in general. It's in your hands to at least reach the standards Witcher 3 has set. There isn't much adult content so far in the game apart from the Minthara quest, which is only for very few players, who chose the "evil" path.

It's early access, let's give them a bit time. Apart from that, I think possible sex scenes will be no more than those in Witcher. Which were tame.
Posted By: Boblawblah Re: Adult content in BG3 - 10/05/21 12:32 PM
META: Could we maybe instead of locking the whole topic just remove some of the offending posts (give posters a timeout if you're inclined to) and let the original topic continue? It seems unfortunate to let a mostly interesting post get nuked due to a few posts.
Posted By: Sozz Re: Adult content in BG3 - 10/05/21 01:49 PM
Hey guys, what's going on in this thread? Hope you don't mind if I smoke.
Posted By: vometia Re: Adult content in BG3 - 10/05/21 02:02 PM
Originally Posted by Boblawblah
META: Could we maybe instead of locking the whole topic just remove some of the offending posts (give posters a timeout if you're inclined to) and let the original topic continue? It seems unfortunate to let a mostly interesting post get nuked due to a few posts.

Well quite. Temporarily closed for housekeeping.

Edit: done. Let's not bring up that stuff again, please. And no sniping; next person who does that gets uninvited.
Posted By: CJMPinger Re: Adult content in BG3 - 10/05/21 04:39 PM
Random thought, could something added to moderation just block individuals from posting in a specific topic instead of blocking them from the forums entirely? Could remove individuals from a topic that proves to be problematic for them to engage with without removing them from other discussions?

Honestly, seeing as how this discussion went, I kinda want to ask what would be considered "acceptable" for Sex Scenes in the game? I don't mean what kind of partners or sexual acts, but more how would people prefer it presented, if it must be presented, other than the "Not at All" side of things cause that does answer itself. Like would people prefer a fade to black, fully animated erotica with anatomically correct organs, foreplay only, fade to black with written description of the actions narrated by the narrator, etc etc?

For me, I'd be fine with a fade to black but I'd like to see the characters to engage with meaningful foreplay, as in foreplay where it is important to the characters and their bond, something that can actually be analyzed from a literary perspective, and then maybe some narration of the important emotional bits, don't really want or need the actual intercourse to be described, just what it means for the characters and their relationship.
Posted By: mrfuji3 Re: Adult content in BG3 - 10/05/21 04:58 PM
Originally Posted by CJMPinger
Honestly, seeing as how this discussion went, I kinda want to ask what would be considered "acceptable" for Sex Scenes in the game? I don't mean what kind of partners or sexual acts, but more how would people pref it presented, other than the "Not at All" side of things cause that does answer itself. Like would people prefer a fade to black, fully animated erotica with anatomically correct organs, foreplay only, fade to black with written description of the actions narrated by the narrator, etc etc?
Definitely not that last one. Visual sex scenes can be useful for purposes other than porn; you see the characters' expressions, them bonding, etc. But a narrated or text-only description of sexual encounters just seems gratuitous and like the goal is erotica.

Originally Posted by CJMPinger
...then maybe some narration of the important emotional bits, don't really want or need the actual intercourse to be described, just what it means for the characters and their relationship.
This would be better than narration of the actual intercourse, but I feel like this is what the after-sex scenes are for. The couple is laying together after sex and through their body language and dialogue (maybe internal thoughts for the PC, probably more applicable to Origin characters) you can learn what it means for the characters.

Alternatively, ^ can be presented in dialogue the morning/days after sex.
Posted By: Pandemonica Re: Adult content in BG3 - 10/05/21 05:38 PM
I honestly don't know what the issue is, the scenes are BARELY rated "R" content. It is not like this is some waifu sex scene.
Posted By: Boblawblah Re: Adult content in BG3 - 10/05/21 06:12 PM
Originally Posted by mrfuji3
Visual sex scenes can be useful for purposes other than porn; you see the characters' expressions, them bonding, etc. But a narrated or text-only description of sexual encounters just seems gratuitous and like the goal is erotica.

I remember in enemy at the gates, there was a sex scene and it was in no way "sexy" but actually a moving moment of companionship between two people stuck in an impossible situation. I do believe sex can be used as a narrative tool ,but often it's just relegated to titillation, which is currently the case in BG3 for sure. It's "i hate you, i hate you, OMG LETS BANG"
Posted By: dwig Re: Adult content in BG3 - 10/05/21 08:01 PM
If you are going to put it in the game, take the time to do it well! Thinking that you can just throw in some porn is an insult to porn actors, actresses, and directors everywhere. Like all forms of art, it requires effort and dedication to master, and just putting it in to satisfy a focus group will suck.

I'd prefer they put the time and effort elsewhere, but if they must do it, then do it well.
Posted By: Sozz Re: Adult content in BG3 - 10/05/21 08:59 PM
Originally Posted by CJMPinger
...Honestly, seeing as how this discussion went, I kinda want to ask what would be considered "acceptable" for Sex Scenes in the game? I don't mean what kind of partners or sexual acts, but more how would people prefer it presented, if it must be presented, other than the "Not at All" side of things cause that does answer itself. Like would people prefer a fade to black, fully animated erotica with anatomically correct organs, foreplay only, fade to black with written description of the actions narrated by the narrator, etc etc?

For me, I'd be fine with a fade to black but I'd like to see the characters to engage with meaningful foreplay, as in foreplay where it is important to the characters and their bond, something that can actually be analyzed from a literary perspective, and then maybe some narration of the important emotional bits, don't really want or need the actual intercourse to be described, just what it means for the characters and their relationship.

I personally like the idea of it being text based with some narration, I believe there's already a element of that in the EA. But I've also played games where the "sex scenes" are treated more as an obligatory value-add, that made me just want to skip through it, I'm thinking ME:Andromeda, a game I never cared to play through more than once and whose characters I struggled to connect with (with no help from Ryder's acting). So I understand people who are taken out by a clunkily written and awkward interaction they don't feel the game earned, if they get a fade-to-black option, fine.

Edit: that said if Larian actually adds character choices during the scenes, that add to your and your companions characterization, and carry through to the rest of the game; first, great; second, you can't leave that stuff in an option section.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Adult content in BG3 - 10/05/21 09:02 PM
I'm sorry, but again, there is romance and then there is sex. Romance can lead to sex, but sex does not mean romance is taking place. Likewise, intimacy does not necessarily mean sex either. Two people can share very tender, open and meaningful moments together without having sex. Sex, when done right, is the ultimate and deepest level of romance and intimacy; becoming as one physically.

This said, most intimacy moments can be played out in a video game without an actual sex scene. It doesn't have to show two people making out, one climbing on the other, clothes being removed, or whatever. As some have stated, this is really hard to do well in a video game anyway. So, you don't need a steamy sex scene in a video game to show vulnerability, etc.

Again, I thought BG2 did rather well with Jaheira's romance. She expressed her vulnerability through dialogue with the MC. You couldn't even see animations of her face or inflections or anything, but you could feel it in the voice actress' voice. It was in the dialogue itself that you began to feel Jaheira's pain and such. Sure, her romance led up to a moment when you could agree to have sex with her, but there was no need for any kind of graphic representation of it.

So, I do think that romance scenes in the game would make the game more emotionally stimulating. I think one of the things BG3 is lacking is that Larian needs to draw players in more and get them to fall in love with the origin characters. We need more comradery. We need to feel more like the part is a group of friends by the time the Celebration event occurs. In order to do that, we need more intimate dialogue between the characters. And I don't mean romantic intimacy. I mean one-on-one dialogues that are more heart-felt and interesting. These need to help the players connect more and care more for the characters.

Actually, I find that Astarion is probably the closest one to this currently. I really felt more connected to him after the dialogue about how I would prefer to die and especially after he mentioned how Casador always like to toy with people too. He's probably my favorite origin character just because I like his smart-butt attitude and sense of humor. I do wish he didn't disapprove of every good choice you make, but he is a bit more of an evil character, so I get it.

But the point is that each character needs to have more that draws you in and makes you like them. Then, when it comes to romance, we need the player to trigger it so that they can romance whoever they want and not be romanced by the others. I don't want Wyl hitting on me when I feel more like he's a bro and we should be kicking back and just joking around together as opposed to him wanting to share a bunk with me. Likewise, some have expressed that they don't like Lae'zel and find her repulsive, so I'm sure they don't like her proposition as much as I don't like it. (And I like Lae'zel and would like to know more about her character. I'm telling you. There's more to her.)

Then, as you get more flirty dialogue with the one you are romancing (or more than one if that's your cup of tea), then things lead to more scenes with just the two of you down by the river or whatever sitting and joking and flirting. Then maybe showing a more innocent kiss. Then maybe the next time it is more of the two sharing a glance with one another as they are sitting around the campfire with the rest of the party. The two then slip away one at a time so no one really notices...or maybe they do. Maybe one party member watches one of you go and smiles knowingly to the others. The two romantic individuals find a moment off in the small alcove across the log at camp. One pushes the other up against the wall and they share a bit of passion there. But it is kept brief to indicate it hasn't been taken to THAT level yet. The next time fade to black. All of these things being triggered by the player so that they can take it to the level they want to take it to.

Then the relationship indicator could change to Lover or something once you have reached the full blown relationship level. If they really wanted to, they could then incorporate jealousy in the party between individuals, like how Aerie and Jaheira were fighting over the MC. I mean, if they did it right, they could really make the romances interesting and more fun and not so much 0 to 60 sex, and it should span out beyond Early Access if necessary. I mean, I get that you have a tadpole in your heads and you might move a bit quicker than a standard relationship, but it shouldn't feel so rushed.

I even think Lae'zel's romance could be way more interesting. Instead of offering herself to you at the Celebration, I just thought she'd be way more tough to crack. She doesn't like feeling vulnerable, so I would think that she'd be fighting any feelings she might have for the MC. I was thinking it would be far more interesting for her to resist sex with the MC until after her character is broken or something more substantial. Maybe the party visits her creche and learns that they are just going to kill her too and there is no cure. Then everything she has believed in is a lie. Even after that, after she breaks down and shares with the MC her shattered hopes and dreams, then I figured it'd be better if she fought it all the more. Part of her doesn't like being so vulnerable with you, so she resists any deeper connection in spite of her attraction. Little by little, she is whittled down until she can no longer handle it. She THEN loses it and throws herself at you, after she's been thoroughly pushed to the point of breaking.

I mean, it doesn't have to be that, exactly, but something more than just, "You killed goblin leaders. You make me hot. Let's do it." So boring and lame, vulgar and crass and pointless.

Even Astarion's could be more enticing. Him just saying, "I mean sex, Darling," is just not sexy. If he was feeling some appetite for such things, why not have a scene at the celebration where it shows you moving off by yourself and Astarion is suddenly there, coming out of the shadows. He then tries to smooth talk you, using wit and flare to try to entice you to do things with him.

Shoot! Even if Lae'zel did that on Celebration night, that would be better than simply approaching her in the middle of the party and having her say she wants to do things with you. There's no romance in that at all. There's got to be some sort of seduction. Right now it's just uninteresting and like the party members are asking you to go hang out at the mall as opposed to being max level intimate with them.
Posted By: Ankou Re: Adult content in BG3 - 10/05/21 09:06 PM
You just want to rewrite everything to your own preferences. I can assure you in the real world people like Laezel exist, and they don't even share a life or death encounter, they just happen to be at the bar during closing. There's therefore nothing objective in that entire analysis.
Posted By: Umbra Re: Adult content in BG3 - 10/05/21 09:10 PM
You might think it's vulgar and crass, but others think that just bonking is fine. Doesn't always mean nothing either, plenty of relationships start with sex and move on the the rest of it over time.
Posted By: Sozz Re: Adult content in BG3 - 10/05/21 09:13 PM
I don't think the celebration scenes are meant to be romantic, they're meant to be casual liaison between people physically attracted to each other after a period of heightened emotions (i.e. the climax of the grove/goblin conflict)
I agree with you in so much as the celebration scene feels a little disjointed, mostly because they seem to exist in their own continuity, there is little to reference your characters relationship throughout Act 1 beyond which side you chose.
Posted By: Blackheifer Re: Adult content in BG3 - 10/05/21 09:16 PM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
I'm sorry, but again, there is romance and then there is sex. Romance can lead to sex, but sex does not mean romance is taking place. Likewise, intimacy does not necessarily mean sex either. Two people can share very tender, open and meaningful moments together without having sex. Sex, when done right, is the ultimate and deepest level of romance and intimacy; becoming as one physically.

This said, most intimacy moments can be played out in a video game without an actual sex scene. It doesn't have to show two people making out, one climbing on the other, clothes being removed, or whatever. As some have stated, this is really hard to do well in a video game anyway. So, you don't need a steamy sex scene in a video game to show vulnerability, etc.

Again, I thought BG2 did rather well with Jaheira's romance. She expressed her vulnerability through dialogue with the MC. You couldn't even see animations of her face or inflections or anything, but you could feel it in the voice actress' voice. It was in the dialogue itself that you began to feel Jaheira's pain and such. Sure, her romance led up to a moment when you could agree to have sex with her, but there was no need for any kind of graphic representation of it.

I just want to point out that the most ADULT thing you can do in this video game is maybe NOT date your co-workers.

I reject everybody, not because I am prude, but because I am the boss and I don't want us to wind up in the D&D equivalent of HR. :P
Posted By: Sozz Re: Adult content in BG3 - 10/05/21 09:19 PM
Hey remember when actual erotica found its way into the Elder Scrolls games, I just thought of that for some reason.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Adult content in BG3 - 10/05/21 09:35 PM
Ah whatever. The "romances" as they are called are boring, meaningless, and pointless. They have no purpose. There is no fun to them at all. They are like going to the doctor and having him examine you. They are very sterile and out of place and you pick someone like you are in the grocery store, and the moment is over and the game moves on.

That is my point. I was trying to give an example, not saying I wanted it exactly like I said. The point is that there is nothing interesting at all about any character relationship. There is no character connections at all.
Posted By: Ankou Re: Adult content in BG3 - 10/05/21 09:39 PM
Astarion is a pansexual libertine, what connection do you want? Laezel has a hard time making emotional connections and views people as sex objects. That is part of their character.

Shadowheart you don't even have sex with, she just warms up to you and you share a quiet evening hanging out alone.

In other words, the "sex" scenes are heavily related to revealing the very personalities you are complaining about. This is part of building character connections. In part because some people will bang on the first date and some won't. That connects to their overall story arc and who they are. I think you're ignoring the significance of these scenes rather than them having none.
Posted By: Sozz Re: Adult content in BG3 - 10/05/21 09:41 PM
If you're playing with the expectation that the celebration scene will be the end of the 'romances' in the game, then I might agree with you...but...we've a long road to yet to travel
Posted By: Ankou Re: Adult content in BG3 - 10/05/21 09:43 PM
Exactly. With Laezel for example that will be the arc I'm sure, getting her from being a cold woman who only cares about sex for her own selfish pleasure as opposed to a caring person who begins to warm up to Tav as a person and share an emotional bond. In a funny way, it will be agreeing GM. The arc will be that it's better to have a relationship (and sex) with someone you actually care about.

With SH I expect the opposite sort of arc, where she begins as extremely guarded and finally when she fully trusts you she'll get vulnerable with you physically. In other words, THIS IS CHARACTER BUILDING. It's part of being a round character.
Posted By: Alexandrite Re: Adult content in BG3 - 10/05/21 09:47 PM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
I think one of the things BG3 is lacking is that Larian needs to draw players in more and get them to fall in love with the origin characters. We need more comradery. We need to feel more like the part is a group of friends by the time the Celebration event occurs. In order to do that, we need more intimate dialogue between the characters. And I don't mean romantic intimacy. I mean one-on-one dialogues that are more heart-felt and interesting. These need to help the players connect more and care more for the characters.

I agree with this - they definitely need more party banter while exploring! I found a youtube video with about 20 minutes of character party banter all put together - and felt sad because maybe only 10% of that ever triggered in my playthrough. I know it's EA and buggy still, and they do need to work on the conversation/banter triggers, but I LIVE for character banter, character development, and storytelling! Game mechanics, rules and math bore me to tears - give me character conversations any day. smile


Originally Posted by GM4Him
Actually, I find that Astarion is probably the closest one to this currently. I really felt more connected to him after the dialogue about how I would prefer to die and especially after he mentioned how Casador always like to toy with people too. He's probably my favorite origin character just because I like his smart-butt attitude and sense of humor. I do wish he didn't disapprove of every good choice you make, but he is a bit more of an evil character, so I get it.

Astarion is definitely the best developed character so far, and that's mostly due to his utterly brilliant voice actor. Neil Newbon is amazing. smile


Originally Posted by GM4Him
(And I like Lae'zel and would like to know more about her character. I'm telling you. There's more to her.)

She is my second favourite character, and yes she feels under-developed currently. I am truly looking forward to her story arc! I feel that her tightly-held Githyanki ideals and faith in her Queen will be shattered, and I want to see her grow as a person from it.

Originally Posted by GM4Him
I even think Lae'zel's romance could be way more interesting. Instead of offering herself to you at the Celebration, I just thought she'd be way more tough to crack. She doesn't like feeling vulnerable, so I would think that she'd be fighting any feelings she might have for the MC. I was thinking it would be far more interesting for her to resist sex with the MC until after her character is broken or something more substantial. Maybe the party visits her creche and learns that they are just going to kill her too and there is no cure. Then everything she has believed in is a lie. Even after that, after she breaks down and shares with the MC her shattered hopes and dreams, then I figured it'd be better if she fought it all the more. Part of her doesn't like being so vulnerable with you, so she resists any deeper connection in spite of her attraction. Little by little, she is whittled down until she can no longer handle it. She THEN loses it and throws herself at you, after she's been thoroughly pushed to the point of breaking.

I mean, it doesn't have to be that, exactly, but something more than just, "You killed goblin leaders. You make me hot. Let's do it." So boring and lame, vulgar and crass and pointless.

I can definitely see what you described as the continuation of her romance, too, but at the same time her behaviour at the party makes sense for who she is at that moment. She's a strongheaded, stubborn Githyanki warrior who has a very direct, physical nature. She tells it like it is. And if she wants you, she'll have you. Vulgar, yes - but that's her, right now, before the rest of the story. She doesn't KNOW yet how to be vulnerable or tender, she sees sex as physical pleasure and that's fine for her at this point in the game.


Originally Posted by GM4Him
Even Astarion's could be more enticing. Him just saying, "I mean sex, Darling," is just not sexy. If he was feeling some appetite for such things, why not have a scene at the celebration where it shows you moving off by yourself and Astarion is suddenly there, coming out of the shadows. He then tries to smooth talk you, using wit and flare to try to entice you to do things with him.

Oh yes it's sexy. I mean just listen to him. The way he says "please?" Oh yeah. :P
Vampires have always been sexual beings in books/movies, so for him it makes sense to me. His scene when you find him under the tree is well-rehearsed, and I imagine he's lured many victims to his master this way. But this time, he gets you all to himself, and that has to mean something... and I love the moment of vulnerability you share afterwards. (Him basking in the morning sun, and mentioning his scars.) He is also the only character whose interactions with you change afterwards. ("Hello, lover.") This is why I feel that is only the beginning of his romance story, and I can't wait for more.
Posted By: Blackheifer Re: Adult content in BG3 - 10/05/21 10:05 PM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Ah whatever. The "romances" as they are called are boring, meaningless, and pointless. They have no purpose.

So like all romances then?

But seriously, going back to your epic fanfiction on Lae'zel. I just feel that you don't really "get" Githyanki, or the Lae'zel character at all.

Originally Posted by GM4Him
I even think Lae'zel's romance could be way more interesting. Instead of offering herself to you at the Celebration, I just thought she'd be way more tough to crack. She doesn't like feeling vulnerable, so I would think that she'd be fighting any feelings she might have for the MC. I was thinking it would be far more interesting for her to resist sex with the MC until after her character is broken or something more substantial. Maybe the party visits her creche and learns that they are just going to kill her too and there is no cure. Then everything she has believed in is a lie. Even after that, after she breaks down and shares with the MC her shattered hopes and dreams, then I figured it'd be better if she fought it all the more. Part of her doesn't like being so vulnerable with you, so she resists any deeper connection in spite of her attraction. Little by little, she is whittled down until she can no longer handle it. She THEN loses it and throws herself at you, after she's been thoroughly pushed to the point of breaking.

Githyanki are pragmatists, 1000 years of slavery does that to you. Lae'zel wouldn't see sex as vulnerability, but as taking pleasure that she is entitled to. Do you know Githyanki lay eggs by the way? The Illithids did that to them to make them more efficient slaves. You are viewing her through a very specific subset of Western Myths of Human romantic love, and not seeing who she really is. She isn't human. She would spit on your attempts to weaken her with romantic overtures, and may straight up try to kill you. The problem is that you are suggesting that she not be a Githyanki.

I will leave you - unironically - with one of my favorite quotes on good writing.

“A character’s actions must flow inexorably from his or her established traits.” – Lieutenant Commander Tuvok quoting T’Hain, Vulcan author of The Dictates of Poetics
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Adult content in BG3 - 10/05/21 11:27 PM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Romance can lead to sex, but sex does not mean romance is taking place. Likewise, intimacy does not necessarily mean sex either. Two people can share very tender, open and meaningful moments together without having sex. Sex, when done right, is the ultimate and deepest level of romance and intimacy; becoming as one physically.
This is fascinating escalation indeed ...
It can, it can, it can ... and sudently it just is ... where did those sweet juicy options go? Why did they dissapear so fast?

Dont get me wrong i dont disagree with you, not directly at least ...
But still, you are describig here one of countless permutations as "the one and only". O_o

And lookins aside from that ... lets say i agree with you compeltely.
Lets say that this, what you are describing actualy is "the one and only sex that is done right" ... who said that every sex must be done right? O_o

Originally Posted by GM4Him
This said, most intimacy moments can be played out in a video game without an actual sex scene. It doesn't have to show two people making out, one climbing on the other, clothes being removed, or whatever. As some have stated, this is really hard to do well in a video game anyway. So, you don't need a steamy sex scene in a video game to show vulnerability, etc.
There are two questions i just must ask ...

First of all, why do you even mind?
Ok, so you dont need them ... then just skip and problem is solved, right?
Why does that bother you that in some game is content that you particulary dont want to use? O_o

And second how would you like to tell the story that was told during sex, without the sex scene? O_o
Take Minthara for example, she wanted to use you, control you, "take what is hers" as she say ... she is feme fattale in its purest form ...
But you can persuate her to submit to you instead ... that allone is something that should be for Drow woman so unimaginable so i cant even describe it properly.
Then you can exploit her vulnerability ...

I know its not exactly that "one and only sex that is done right" ... but how would you like to tell this story without the scene? O_o

Originally Posted by GM4Him
Again, I thought BG2 did rather well with Jaheira's romance. She expressed her vulnerability through dialogue with the MC. You couldn't even see animations of her face or inflections or anything, but you could feel it in the voice actress' voice. It was in the dialogue itself that you began to feel Jaheira's pain and such. Sure, her romance led up to a moment when you could agree to have sex with her, but there was no need for any kind of graphic representation of it.
More like there was technical limitations that didnt alow it ...
Even her whole body ingame was difficult to distinguish from the match. :-/

The right question is:
Would it benefit from such scene, IF tha scene would like as they do in Baldur's Gate 3?
Rethorical question ... but i say: Yes! Certainly!

Originally Posted by GM4Him
So, I do think that romance scenes in the game would make the game more emotionally stimulating. I think one of the things BG3 is lacking is that Larian needs to draw players in more and get them to fall in love with the origin characters. We need more comradery. We need to feel more like the part is a group of friends by the time the Celebration event occurs. In order to do that, we need more intimate dialogue between the characters. And I don't mean romantic intimacy. I mean one-on-one dialogues that are more heart-felt and interesting. These need to help the players connect more and care more for the characters.
Why this have to be contradiction?
Why cant you have both?

Why our characters can spice their comradery, or celebration events ... with some good time? O_o
Note that i didnt say "Sex" but "good time" since with Shadowheart (for example) you dont get sex ... since it fits her profile. wink

And since im not sure if this sentence survived the purge ... i must repeat: I would really like to see some consequences of *that night* ...
For example, when long rest ... i really want, maybe even demand more sexy ... ehm ... to see my Mage sleeping in Gale's arms, instead of separate mat.

Originally Posted by GM4Him
Then, when it comes to romance, we need the player to trigger it so that they can romance whoever they want and not be romanced by the others.
Someone have to do the first step ... why "we" need to be the one? O_o
I for example like it, it makes companions feel more alive, than when they simply "just stand over there in the corner, obediently waiting when Their Majesty Lord PC von Smug will come to propose something". laugh

I would like to have dialogue option to hit on them first tho.

Originally Posted by GM4Him
I don't want Wyl hitting on me when I feel more like he's a bro and we should be kicking back and just joking around together as opposed to him wanting to share a bunk with me.
And again ... why?
That awkward situation, when someone missunderstands your signal is cruicial part of life ... and part of true friendship, if they both can get over that.
Posted By: Alexandrite Re: Adult content in BG3 - 10/05/21 11:59 PM
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
And second how would you like to tell the story that was told during sex, without the sex scene? O_o
Take Minthara for example, she wanted to use you, control you, "take what is hers" as she say ... she is feme fattale in its purest form ...
But you can persuate her to submit to you instead ... that allone is something that should be for Drow woman so unimaginable so i cant even describe it properly.
Then you can exploit her vulnerability ...

I know its not exactly that "one and only sex that is done right" ... but how would you like to tell this story without the scene? O_o

Yep, exactly this. Each of the camp scenes reveals something about each character. Shadowheart's hidden sweet personality. Astarion's scars. Gale's acceptance/realisation that there is something to love in the real world, not just his mystical Goddess. Wyll needing a break from Mizora. Lae'zel's pure, primal physicality. Etc. ALL of these are important character moments. They can't, and shouldn't, just be seen through the one prism of "sex is for romantic love only, nothing else counts and/or is wrong." Sex can be many things in a story (and in real life).
Posted By: Dez Re: Adult content in BG3 - 11/05/21 12:49 AM
Alright, this is gonna be my final wall of text in this topic. Pinkie-promise.

Originally Posted by GM4Him
I'm sorry, but again, there is romance and then there is sex. Romance can lead to sex, but sex does not mean romance is taking place. Likewise, intimacy does not necessarily mean sex either. Two people can share very tender, open and meaningful moments together without having sex. Sex, when done right, is the ultimate and deepest level of romance and intimacy; becoming as one physically.

Sure. I don't think anybody here is arguing that sex and romance are necessary for each other. Sex can be just sex too (for those who enjoy that sorta thing - and mind you, that falls very much in character for Astarion and Lae'zel, imo). Just as romance without sex is fine (like SH), sex without romance is also fine (like Lae'zel). Whatever makes sense for the character will do, imo. Then if it develops into something else later on (or not), then that's fine and all - but not every romancable humanoid being should be the "let's take this very slow, and then get married and have babies once this is all over"-type - because that would not make sense. At all. Some people are simply not like that.

Originally Posted by GM4Him
So, I do think that romance scenes in the game would make the game more emotionally stimulating. I think one of the things BG3 is lacking is that Larian needs to draw players in more and get them to fall in love with the origin characters. We need more comradery. We need to feel more like the part is a group of friends by the time the Celebration event occurs. In order to do that, we need more intimate dialogue between the characters. And I don't mean romantic intimacy. I mean one-on-one dialogues that are more heart-felt and interesting. These need to help the players connect more and care more for the characters.

You'll get no argument from me here! I absolutely 100% agree that there should be more character-bonding (and not necessarily in romantic ways). :] In both character commentary (monologues), dialogues and group banter.

Originally Posted by GM4Him
But the point is that each character needs to have more that draws you in and makes you like them. Then, when it comes to romance, we need the player to trigger it so that they can romance whoever they want and not be romanced by the others. I don't want Wyl hitting on me when I feel more like he's a bro and we should be kicking back and just joking around together as opposed to him wanting to share a bunk with me. Likewise, some have expressed that they don't like Lae'zel and find her repulsive, so I'm sure they don't like her proposition as much as I don't like it. (And I like Lae'zel and would like to know more about her character. I'm telling you. There's more to her.)

I absolutely get your point here, and I feel very much the same on many occasions. Absolutely, one can "just turn the character down" - but that does not "undo" the suggestion and it does leave a rather weird taste in one's mouth. (DA:O severely scarred me for life here - friendzoning Alistair was painful.)

Before I move on to my personal opinion on the matter, I'd like to add: I GET IT - onesided feelings is a rather real and "realistic" problem. It shouldn't be "that much of a deal" to just say "no". But for some people it is awkward, weird and (just like in reality) it simply won't go back to "normal" afterwards. Having even an AI character that you do not deem appropriate for romancing coming on to your PC is difficult and it is not enjoyable. While playing DA:O I 100% envisioned Alistair as some sort of younger brother - and when he REPEATEDLY tried to make advances on my character, then things got so cringy and awkward that I simply couldn't drop the awkward feeling whenever I saw him. Especially not with the responses he gaves (those who knows, they know I guess...)

BUT despite all this - I do NOT agree that the PC should have to make the first move. Because that simply does not make sense for a lot of characters - and I feel like a player shouldn't have to pick options that do not suit their characters just to "open up" the romantic (not to be mistaken for flirty) dialogues. What I would like, ideally, is some sort of friendzoning option similar to that of Leliana (DA:O) - it was simple, perfectly crystal clear what the options meant and it simply "switched" the romance off without actually hurting the NPCs feelings. She simply swapped from romantically interested to friendly interested just by the way you chose your answers and it was VEEEEERRRYYY obvious which ones where the "FRIENDZONE!"-options the first time she started having the first "romantic" conversations with you (which was kind of subtle hinting, but still obvious enough - like seriously whoever wrote the entire thing is a genius). While obviously this is most unrealistic since a real person would A) take the hint and hide their feelings, or B) proceed anyways and follow their feelings - it is still, imo, what grants the best player experience. Because this is one of these things that I think NPCs can do better than real people. Let us "turn off" their romantic interest if it makes the session uncomfortable - at least when we're talking about our companions that will actually stick around for the entire game. Obviously - if some NPCs that will occur once or twice or every now and then gives my character some unwanted attention - then I'll just deal with it. But it is SIGNIFICANTLY harder when it comes to companions that is around pretty much... Always. :|

Originally Posted by GM4Him
Then, as you get more flirty dialogue with the one you are romancing (or more than one if that's your cup of tea), then things lead to more scenes with just the two of you down by the river or whatever sitting and joking and flirting. Then maybe showing a more innocent kiss. Then maybe the next time it is more of the two sharing a glance with one another as they are sitting around the campfire with the rest of the party. The two then slip away one at a time so no one really notices...or maybe they do. Maybe one party member watches one of you go and smiles knowingly to the others. The two romantic individuals find a moment off in the small alcove across the log at camp. One pushes the other up against the wall and they share a bit of passion there. But it is kept brief to indicate it hasn't been taken to THAT level yet. The next time fade to black. All of these things being triggered by the player so that they can take it to the level they want to take it to.

Sure. Those types of romances should definitely be available for those who likes this kind of thing. I mean, like I mentioned before... My characters are usually not very quick at jumping into bed with someone - that would just be out of character for them. So they just either shrug or laugh it off, or some (looking at my rogue character) would probably get offended and proceed the conversation accordingly (probably with a fancy punch). I mean, I am not gonna argue against you on this, because I too felt like it is more than a little out of place (and this is just my opinion, I respect those who think otherwise) that all except SH wants to bed your character during the very same night. :'] Apparently I looked so troubled IRL that my SO actually had to take a look at my screen and ask wtf was going on (and then he just laughed as I explained and said "go with the vampire dude" XD ).

Originally Posted by GM4Him
Then the relationship indicator could change to Lover or something once you have reached the full blown relationship level. If they really wanted to, they could then incorporate jealousy in the party between individuals, like how Aerie and Jaheira were fighting over the MC. I mean, if they did it right, they could really make the romances interesting and more fun and not so much 0 to 60 sex, and it should span out beyond Early Access if necessary. I mean, I get that you have a tadpole in your heads and you might move a bit quicker than a standard relationship, but it shouldn't feel so rushed.

Sure, a better relationship indicator would certainly be welcomed. Jealousy, as long as it makes sense for the characters, could be fine too - and like you said, there certainly would be (or are, rather) potential for great "romances" in BG3. :]

Originally Posted by GM4Him
I even think Lae'zel's romance could be way more interesting. Instead of offering herself to you at the Celebration, I just thought she'd be way more tough to crack. She doesn't like feeling vulnerable, so I would think that she'd be fighting any feelings she might have for the MC. I was thinking it would be far more interesting for her to resist sex with the MC until after her character is broken or something more substantial. Maybe the party visits her creche and learns that they are just going to kill her too and there is no cure. Then everything she has believed in is a lie. Even after that, after she breaks down and shares with the MC her shattered hopes and dreams, then I figured it'd be better if she fought it all the more. Part of her doesn't like being so vulnerable with you, so she resists any deeper connection in spite of her attraction. Little by little, she is whittled down until she can no longer handle it. She THEN loses it and throws herself at you, after she's been thoroughly pushed to the point of breaking.

I mean, it doesn't have to be that, exactly, but something more than just, "You killed goblin leaders. You make me hot. Let's do it." So boring and lame, vulgar and crass and pointless.

Even Astarion's could be more enticing. Him just saying, "I mean sex, Darling," is just not sexy. If he was feeling some appetite for such things, why not have a scene at the celebration where it shows you moving off by yourself and Astarion is suddenly there, coming out of the shadows. He then tries to smooth talk you, using wit and flare to try to entice you to do things with him.

Shoot! Even if Lae'zel did that on Celebration night, that would be better than simply approaching her in the middle of the party and having her say she wants to do things with you. There's no romance in that at all. There's got to be some sort of seduction. Right now it's just uninteresting and like the party members are asking you to go hang out at the mall as opposed to being max level intimate with them.

Regarding Lae'zel - I agree with most people above. Being physical and blunt IS VERY MUCH in character for someone like Lae'zel. If it could develop into something deeper later on is one thing - but as it is right now... She is one of the characters that this behavior really makes sense to.

Regarding Astarion, I don't know... While I do not dismiss your idea as wrong - I feel like both could be equally "true" for his character. He does feel like the type that could try some more... Seductive methods than just "Let's have sex." - but at the same time, regarding the particular circumstances, I felt like it was very "Astarionish" of him to be blunt with a "I am bored and this is awful. Let's ****?". I'll admit though - I do agree, that in general (maybe if he would have been sober ? xd) the scenario you painted would feel more accurate if we assume that he have been used as "bait" or something back in the city... And, imma guess wildly here, having him turn up uninvited with seductive and tempting proposals would prooobably result in him reaching a higher romancing rate. But please, Larian, if you do go with this; make us able to not just verbally deny him, and give us the option to physically decline (like the elbow-scene laugh ). "WTF ARE YOU DOING HERE? *SMACK* "

Finally - I just wanna add that I do agree with you on many points. I am not much for the "quickie" romances that is the result of pure thirst, and I do very much appreciate when things develop more slowly and that it is based on someone actually falling in love with the PC overtime (and vice versa?). My absolute favorite romance ever is Aloth (... Yup, very slow and VERY vague to say the least) and his character was so insanely well written (AND VOICED!!!) that it STILL completely blows my mind every time I think about it - even if he would not have had an actual romance available, he'd still be my favorite companion of all time. Now, granted - most people here have a lot more experience than I when it comes to CRPGs and romance options, but I do have quite a few characters that I remember fondly (some from romance runs, some just in general). My favorite prior to Aloth was Ifan, mostly because he was already from the start so similar to my character (while Aloth was the polar opposite) and Ifan's character just felt right from the beginning (again, in opposing to Aloth where everything developed very slowly with no natural chemistry in the beginning - it just so happened to be that way when the story unfolded laugh ). I would make a list to mention some more of my favorites - but ... I'll just leave you with my top two favorites :]
Posted By: middle tab Re: Adult content in BG3 - 11/05/21 01:12 AM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Even Astarion's could be more enticing. Him just saying, "I mean sex, Darling," is just not sexy. If he was feeling some appetite for such things, why not have a scene at the celebration where it shows you moving off by yourself and Astarion is suddenly there, coming out of the shadows. He then tries to smooth talk you, using wit and flare to try to entice you to do things with him.
oh, that would be fine for a sexually inexperienced character. I see it. just a line of choice: - you are tired of the noise. decided to rest alone. and then the scene with Astarion. it doesn't even need to be redone in this case. that would be more enticing.
but I think for him it is - I want sex. more natural. like a vampire. and for what he was in a past life. Casanova and the scum (this is how I see him)
and also Gale. he seems to be the most refined of the whole squad. I would like at least a compliment from him. and not just a story about the Kama Sutra. and his ex
Posted By: Innateagle Re: Adult content in BG3 - 11/05/21 02:10 AM
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by GM4Him
I don't want Wyl hitting on me when I feel more like he's a bro and we should be kicking back and just joking around together as opposed to him wanting to share a bunk with me.
And again ... why?
That awkward situation, when someone missunderstands your signal is cruicial part of life ... and part of true friendship, if they both can get over that.

It is known all the best friendships are indeed born from bros wanting to make-out with eachother, a couple days after their first meeting. Well not, really.
Posted By: Ankou Re: Adult content in BG3 - 11/05/21 02:47 AM
Originally Posted by Innateagle
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by GM4Him
I don't want Wyl hitting on me when I feel more like he's a bro and we should be kicking back and just joking around together as opposed to him wanting to share a bunk with me.
And again ... why?
That awkward situation, when someone missunderstands your signal is cruicial part of life ... and part of true friendship, if they both can get over that.

It is known all the best friendships are indeed born from bros wanting to make-out with eachother, a couple days after their first meeting. Well not, really.

Irrelevant it's pretty easy to avoid flirtatious dialogue from Wyll. Just don't flirt with him first.
Posted By: CJMPinger Re: Adult content in BG3 - 11/05/21 02:57 AM
Originally Posted by Ankou
Originally Posted by Innateagle
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by GM4Him
I don't want Wyl hitting on me when I feel more like he's a bro and we should be kicking back and just joking around together as opposed to him wanting to share a bunk with me.
And again ... why?
That awkward situation, when someone missunderstands your signal is cruicial part of life ... and part of true friendship, if they both can get over that.

It is known all the best friendships are indeed born from bros wanting to make-out with eachother, a couple days after their first meeting. Well not, really.

Irrelevant it's pretty easy to avoid flirtatious dialogue from Wyll. Just don't flirt with him first.

The issue a lot of people seem to be having is that they haven't been the one to start any flirting dialogue, but they then get propositioned for Sex at the post Goblin/Tiefling slaying party. This makes the sex scene feel more like titillation and less like an extension of the character progression and plot.

Though for me I exclusively go for Astarion and Gale since they are the guys I like most so I don't feel much of an issue cause they feel a bit more in line with the characters. Astarion legitimately has the most depth to me oddly enough even though on the surface he seems just like a vampire who enjoys being able to succ blood in the daylight. But both Astarion and Gale proposition me first, regardless if I engaged with Mirror Image flirting or offering to let Astarion get a nibble again.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Adult content in BG3 - 11/05/21 03:14 AM
Wow. Bombarded. I don't even know where to start so I guess I'll just start here:

I understand Gith. I do. I just think Lae'zel is not the typical Gith. That said, I have even said at various points that I totally see her being as she is on Celebration Night. My entire point was missed. My idea was more of an example. I wasnt thinking Larian was going to actually take my idea and use it. The point was I would like SOME sort of more interesting romance.

One point I was trying to make is that the romances all happen all at once. Just bam. All at once. It is very out of nowhere.
EVERYONE suddenly wants to have sex on the same night out of the blue. Like I said, its like picking out groceries instead of romance. The game even asks you who you pick to sleep with that night. But I guess it shouldn't surprise me. It's very much like the Bachelor and that's a popular series. Everyone wants to sleep with the MC and he/she gets to pick.

But whatever. I don't think I care anymore.
Posted By: CJMPinger Re: Adult content in BG3 - 11/05/21 03:17 AM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Wow. Bombarded. I don't even know where to start so I guess I'll just start here:

I understand Gith. I do. I just think Lae'zel is not the typical Gith. That said, I have even said at various points that I totally see her being as she is on Celebration Night. My entire point was missed. My idea was more of an example. I wasnt thinking Larian was going to actually take my idea and use it. The point was I would like SOME sort of more interesting romance.

One point I was trying to make is that the romances all happen all at once. Just bam. All at once. It is very out of nowhere.
EVERYONE suddenly wants to have sex on the same night out of the blue. Like I said, its like picking out groceries instead of romance. The game even asks you who you pick to sleep with that night. But I guess it shouldn't surprise me. It's very much like the Bachelor and that's a popular series. Everyone wants to sleep with the MC and he/she gets to pick.

But whatever. I don't think I care anymore.

Honestly, I agree with you that it is a bit contrived that it is all on the same night. Its why SH stands out even to those who want sexual content. It might be a product of the limited design space to show off romance right now, but they all would benefit from having different progressions. Astarion might pick a party or he might pick a particular dark and romantic night for example, the second even when keeping everything else the same, spaces his away from the others and makes it stand out with setting and timing.

By having everything happen at the same time at the same place for the same reasons, it does make it considerably less romantic, even for the ones that are meant to be more romantic, or at the very least seductive.
Posted By: Niara Re: Adult content in BG3 - 11/05/21 03:20 AM
Also, you know, it's pretty unfair of the game to present you with a bullet point list at your bed roll, for 'who do you want to pick' and you might have four or even five options.... and yet there's no "Invite both X and Y" option anywhere... This is supposed to be a party, after all...

(Note: said at least partially in jest; I absolutely do want poly conversation options eventually, somewhere in the game, but I agree that the way it's handled right now is pretty tacky and forced in the everyone-at-once-right-now set up)
Posted By: CJMPinger Re: Adult content in BG3 - 11/05/21 03:24 AM
Originally Posted by Niara
Also, you know, it's pretty unfair of the game to present you with a bullet point list at your bed roll, for 'who do you want to pick' and you might have four or even five options.... and yet there's no "Invite both X and Y" option anywhere... This is supposed to be a party, after all...

(Note: said at least partially in jest; I absolutely do want poly conversation options eventually, somewhere in the game, but I agree that the way it's handled right now is pretty tacky and forced in the everyone-at-once-right-now set up)

I think it would depend on the character.
Dragon Age 2 had a poly/open sex scene with one of the companions where they invited a companion from the previous game who was very... open with their sexuality, but it made absolute sense for those characters to be in that scene. I would not want to see the fallout that would be inviting Shadowheart AND Laezel to bed... Though weirdly, I feel like Gale and Astarion could actually get along, but I have no evidence to back that up...
Posted By: mrfuji3 Re: Adult content in BG3 - 11/05/21 04:01 AM
Originally Posted by Niara
Also, you know, it's pretty unfair of the game to present you with a bullet point list at your bed roll, for 'who do you want to pick' and you might have four or even five options.... and yet there's no "Invite both X and Y" option anywhere... This is supposed to be a party, after all...

(Note: said at least partially in jest; I absolutely do want poly conversation options eventually, somewhere in the game, but I agree that the way it's handled right now is pretty tacky and forced in the everyone-at-once-right-now set up)
Similarly, being able to "romance" multiple companions (either sequentially or simultaneously) over the course of the game could add some interesting dynamics. One of my problems with the party is that companions get so snarky if you choose someone else, but since they've all decided to proposition me at the same time, my only other option to choosing one of them is to choose none of them.

I am assuming (hoping) that the romance is spread out further over the game, so then companions can be given more in-depth reactions to you sleeping with other companions/NPCs, and romances could be affected by your other romance choices. Some companions (Astarion and Lae'zel) probably wouldn't care, as long as you are also are sleeping with them. Shadowheart would say that you can do whatever you want, but secretly be hurt. Etc.

DAO had something like this iirc, where companions you were trying to woo would remark on your existing relationships with other companions, and eventually force a choice. Those were interesting conversations to try to navigate without everything blowing up :P
Posted By: Sozz Re: Adult content in BG3 - 11/05/21 04:04 AM
Originally Posted by Niara
Also, you know, it's pretty unfair of the game to present you with a bullet point list at your bed roll, for 'who do you want to pick' and you might have four or even five options.... and yet there's no "Invite both X and Y" option anywhere...
(Note: said at least partially in jest; I absolutely do want poly conversation options eventually, somewhere in the game, but I agree that the way it's handled right now is pretty tacky and forced in the everyone-at-once-right-now set up)
Originally Posted by Sozz
Originally Posted by Atlus
When I think of playersexual, I view it as the player and companions having a push-pull where I’m becoming more non-player character sexual and they more playersexual. By this I mean I have my preferences as well but it’s about my character’s relationship with his companions and if I feel like the characters make sense, I’ll follow the storyline. Sometimes it leads to romance (In DA:O: my character went from being challenged by morrigan to falling in love with her organically.) Sometimes it doesn’t work out and that’s okay.
This is the most coherent case for the herosexual dynamic I've seen made yet, it's what I would expect every character relationship to be like, playersexual or not, platonic or romantic...but it's not what we're getting,

I see herosexual npcs as being a fait accompli, they're designed to sex you, whoever you are, you're given the option of declining. There's no real back and forth, you don't start out in a platonic relationship (Shadowheart maybe?) which progresses through a few stages of compatibility testing that might tip into a romance, it's all about your player, you paid $60 to see romance by-gum, slam the dolls together!
This also means there can be no platonic relationship before a romantic one, because they're prefigured to be your romantic partner, it isn't until you've turned them down that they're set to 'friend', I think this is what people find offensive about how up front everyone's sexuality is, the party camp scenes are like mixers, everybody's fair game because that's what they're there to be, unlike in what I would consider a better scenario where that would come out of that back and forth, like in your examples.

Because I've seen threads on this, let me be clear, I have no problem with our characters indulging in a bit of casual 'relations', it just made the above all the more apparent when in one night everyone makes a pass at you like you're the Queen of Sheba selecting her harem for that night.

Originally Posted by Sozz
Originally Posted by Atlus
When I think of playersexual, I view it as the player and companions having a push-pull where I’m becoming more non-player character sexual and they more playersexual...
you don't start out in a platonic relationship...which progresses through a few stages of compatibility testing that might tip into a romance, it's all about your player... it just made the above all the more apparent when in one night everyone makes a pass at you like you're the Queen of Sheba selecting her harem for that night.

It was this whole point that made me question the direction the story was going in terms of the "romance" plotlines, like Larian wanted to get the sex stuff out of the way quickly in order to prove its there and then start the actual plot afterwards.
Posted By: Innateagle Re: Adult content in BG3 - 11/05/21 10:46 AM
Originally Posted by Ankou
Originally Posted by Innateagle
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by GM4Him
I don't want Wyl hitting on me when I feel more like he's a bro and we should be kicking back and just joking around together as opposed to him wanting to share a bunk with me.
And again ... why?
That awkward situation, when someone missunderstands your signal is cruicial part of life ... and part of true friendship, if they both can get over that.

It is known all the best friendships are indeed born from bros wanting to make-out with eachother, a couple days after their first meeting. Well not, really.

Irrelevant it's pretty easy to avoid flirtatious dialogue from Wyll. Just don't flirt with him first.

There's no avoiding it, only ignoring it. Which is actually extra funny coming from Wyll. Even the dude's backstory is heterosexual, and yet he comes onto a male player character like whatev. Same thing for Gale. But i guess that's just vintage Larian trading sense for gaminess.

Originally Posted by GM4Him
Wow. Bombarded. I don't even know where to start so I guess I'll just start here:

I understand Gith. I do. I just think Lae'zel is not the typical Gith. That said, I have even said at various points that I totally see her being as she is on Celebration Night. My entire point was missed. My idea was more of an example. I wasnt thinking Larian was going to actually take my idea and use it. The point was I would like SOME sort of more interesting romance.

One point I was trying to make is that the romances all happen all at once. Just bam. All at once. It is very out of nowhere.
EVERYONE suddenly wants to have sex on the same night out of the blue. Like I said, its like picking out groceries instead of romance. The game even asks you who you pick to sleep with that night. But I guess it shouldn't surprise me. It's very much like the Bachelor and that's a popular series. Everyone wants to sleep with the MC and he/she gets to pick.

But whatever. I don't think I care anymore.

Pretty much. Very dating sim, and i'm guessing that's why, at the end of the day, some like it (feeling wanted) and some don't (is wack).
Posted By: Dez Re: Adult content in BG3 - 11/05/21 11:30 AM
Originally Posted by Sozz
it just made the above all the more apparent when in one night everyone makes a pass at you like you're the Queen of Sheba selecting her harem for that night.

AHAHAHAH, this is the best thing I've ever read when it comes to summing up the feelings I had for the thiefling celebration. :'D On point, 11/10
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Adult content in BG3 - 11/05/21 11:49 AM
Originally Posted by Innateagle
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by GM4Him
I don't want Wyl hitting on me when I feel more like he's a bro and we should be kicking back and just joking around together as opposed to him wanting to share a bunk with me.
And again ... why?
That awkward situation, when someone missunderstands your signal is cruicial part of life ... and part of true friendship, if they both can get over that.
It is known all the best friendships are indeed born from bros wanting to make-out with eachother, a couple days after their first meeting. Well not, really.
Good, you manage to find example of situation that no one was talking about, and prove its not working ...
Not sure why you did that, or how is that relevant to curent topic ... but okey, i gues. O_o
Posted By: Innateagle Re: Adult content in BG3 - 11/05/21 12:23 PM
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by Innateagle
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by GM4Him
I don't want Wyl hitting on me when I feel more like he's a bro and we should be kicking back and just joking around together as opposed to him wanting to share a bunk with me.
And again ... why?
That awkward situation, when someone missunderstands your signal is cruicial part of life ... and part of true friendship, if they both can get over that.
It is known all the best friendships are indeed born from bros wanting to make-out with eachother, a couple days after their first meeting. Well not, really.
Good, you manage to find example of situation that no one was talking about, and prove its not working ...
Not sure why you did that, or how is that relevant to curent topic ... but okey, i gues. O_o

I repeated what you said, absurdity and all.
Posted By: The Composer Re: Adult content in BG3 - 11/05/21 12:27 PM
Focus on the topic and not eachother, guys.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Adult content in BG3 - 12/05/21 02:40 AM
@RagnarokCzD

You wanted me to answer your previous. Let me sum up my points more concisely:

My main point was really that I'd like variety in the romance. I wasn't trying to lock in some specific detailed story. Just giving examples of what I mean by having more to the romances. Right now, everyone decides in one night at the same time to have sex. It is very weird that the entire group has no real connection with you, no side interactions or flirting or anything and then BAM! All in one night they are all horny.

And there is no real difference between them by that point. You don't have anyone approach you when you are alone at some point, or anything like that. It's just sterile. I walk up to each one and they ask me to spend some alone time with them. Then I have to choose only one like Im on the Bachelor and I get to pick my lover. It just feels very UNromantic. I feel like Im picking a lover from a vending machine rather than having fun and interesting interactions BEFORE deciding to go to bed with someone.

I mean, I do understand Gith and vampires. Both do make sense at the party, but neither is very special. It's just there. That's all I was saying.

I mean, I want romance in the game. Sex, no, but romance yes, and right now there is no real romance. I still think the game is better off without sex in it. If the game is good, it doesn't need it, and if sex is done poorly, it will severely weaken the game.
Posted By: Blackheifer Re: Adult content in BG3 - 12/05/21 03:32 AM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
And there is no real difference between them by that point. You don't have anyone approach you when you are alone at some point, or anything like that. It's just sterile. I walk up to each one and they ask me to spend some alone time with them. Then I have to choose only one like Im on the Bachelor and I get to pick my lover. It just feels very UNromantic. I feel like Im picking a lover from a vending machine rather than having fun and interesting interactions BEFORE deciding to go to bed with someone.

I mean, I do understand Gith and vampires. Both do make sense at the party, but neither is very special. It's just there. That's all I was saying.

I mean, I want romance in the game. Sex, no, but romance yes, and right now there is no real romance. I still think the game is better off without sex in it. If the game is good, it doesn't need it, and if sex is done poorly, it will severely weaken the game.

It seems like you place a lot of value on romance in your media. I would invite you to simply read a romance novel, Danielle Steele has written a bunch of them. I hear she is good. I read half of one once.

I want to say I am not in agreement with you on the lack of romance for all characters being a huge detriment as I consider the single player campaign and the custom characters to be mostly irrelevant, but that is simply because I value the Multiplayer aspect of this far more than anything.

Also in multiplayer we usually just kill all those custom characters, strip them of all items and leave their rotting carcasses where we found them. Although some like to send them to camp and then kill them there, piling the dead bodies on the sleeping bags so whenever we rest we are treated to a VERY grisly sight. Romance!

Clearly we have extremely different sets of values. But I respect that you have a different approach to these things and I hope you find what you need.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Adult content in BG3 - 12/05/21 05:02 AM
Nah. I have mostly played BG3 FOR everything but the romance. My actual priorities for this game would be:

1. Finish it so I have the whole story because story IS my true passion.
2. Give us a true D&D 5e experience with real 5e stats and rules and then balance number of enemies, enemy HP, etc. to align with the true rules and stats. (I've done it with TT, so it can be done on a PC game. Ain't nothing in the TT that cant be put in PC except maybe Reactions being janky and maybe Ready Action.) If not this, we need at least better balance somehow.
3. Ability to create a full party of custom characters in Single Player Mode. I can do it by messing with multiplayer, so just let me do it in single. With this, allow me to switch out Custom characters with Origin in case I want to just leave a Custom at camp for awhile.
4. Better banter, both between origin party members and the Custom, and between Custom Characters. With this, better companion connections. I just have a hard time feeling vested in most of the origin characters. I WANT to care, but I kinda don't because they don't feel much like a team. I would like more scenes with them chatting together as a team about their issues and deciding next moves as a party, not one on one with the MC only.
5. Long rest restrictions/ Timed Events so that if I long rest too much things actually happen. With this, dialogues aren't overwritten like Gale's Mirror Image Dialogue and Go to Hell.
6. More races and classes.
7. Crafting and some cooler weapons like Frostbrand and Wounding and other wondrous items.
8. Day/Night cycle.
9. Oh, and if you are going to have romance in the game, maybe actually have romance, not sex. I mean, games good enough to me without it, and it really doesn't do much to enhance. If not done right, it can even make the game so much worse. Without it, you might even open up the game to a wider audience.

That said, some have said that sex with certain characters does reveal more about them. I still think this could be done without sex involved, but whatever.

So as you can see, romance to me in this game really isn't that important. Yeah, I like a game with some fun romance options, but that is why I was saying a lot of this. Right now, the romance in the game is just not there. It's just pick a lover and do it. No real interactions or nothing.

There are RPGs that have done romance well, peppered in to the game. KOTOR, BG1 and 2...It can be done well and tastefully. That's all I was trying to suggest.

My whole stance is I just want to try to help make BG3 better. Im not that crazy about any of this. If they do nothing but finish the game, Im good. I think it could be better, but Im good.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Adult content in BG3 - 12/05/21 08:05 AM
Not exaclty ...
I know your point, i was reading it multiple times before ... i wanted you to explain me your reasons for such decisions. smile

Originally Posted by GM4Him
Then I have to choose only one like Im on the Bachelor and I get to pick my lover.
Agree ... we certainly should be able to manage at least threesome. laugh
Posted By: Nyloth Re: Adult content in BG3 - 12/05/21 12:06 PM
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
Originally Posted by GM4Him
And there is no real difference between them by that point. You don't have anyone approach you when you are alone at some point, or anything like that. It's just sterile. I walk up to each one and they ask me to spend some alone time with them. Then I have to choose only one like Im on the Bachelor and I get to pick my lover. It just feels very UNromantic. I feel like Im picking a lover from a vending machine rather than having fun and interesting interactions BEFORE deciding to go to bed with someone.

I mean, I do understand Gith and vampires. Both do make sense at the party, but neither is very special. It's just there. That's all I was saying.

I mean, I want romance in the game. Sex, no, but romance yes, and right now there is no real romance. I still think the game is better off without sex in it. If the game is good, it doesn't need it, and if sex is done poorly, it will severely weaken the game.

It seems like you place a lot of value on romance in your media. I would invite you to simply read a romance novel, Danielle Steele has written a bunch of them. I hear she is good. I read half of one once.

I want to say I am not in agreement with you on the lack of romance for all characters being a huge detriment as I consider the single player campaign and the custom characters to be mostly irrelevant, but that is simply because I value the Multiplayer aspect of this far more than anything.

Also in multiplayer we usually just kill all those custom characters, strip them of all items and leave their rotting carcasses where we found them. Although some like to send them to camp and then kill them there, piling the dead bodies on the sleeping bags so whenever we rest we are treated to a VERY grisly sight. Romance!

Clearly we have extremely different sets of values. But I respect that you have a different approach to these things and I hope you find what you need.

Off-topic, but I've always been surprised by players like you. In such games, each character has a personal story, a series of quests, and you just lose a lot of content... It's so strange to me, but everyone has their own way, so yes.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Adult content in BG3 - 12/05/21 12:47 PM
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Not exaclty ...
I know your point, i was reading it multiple times before ... i wanted you to explain me your reasons for such decisions. smile

Originally Posted by GM4Him
Then I have to choose only one like Im on the Bachelor and I get to pick my lover.
Agree ... we certainly should be able to manage at least threesome. laugh

Um. I guess I'll try to answer some of the questions you had. There were a lot, so if I miss something...

1. Romance can lead to sex, but sex does not mean romance. What I mean is that people can just have sex that is meaningless. There are levels of sexual intimacy. It is, as one person I think said, like cooking. Cheap, meaningless sex is like someone making something quick and easy in the microwave. It may taste good but it is nothing compared to what you could have if you take the time and effort to really make it right in the oven. Romance = taking actions that entice and delight your partner. It is about playing and teasing and sharing and enjoying one another's company outside of a single physical act. Sure, romance also quite often includes that single physical act, but that single physical act is not the sum total of the romantic experience. Sex = the single, physical act and the culmination of physical intimacy. Sex is sharing everything you have with another. It is bonding with another physically. Afterwards, you feel connected to them and a new sense of deep and personal closeness. So it is powerful, but it is not the sum total of romance.

2. That is why I said that two people can share very tender moments without having sex. In the game, they could have scenes with you and someone you are courting spending time alone together just enjoying one another's company. You know, actually building a relationship with the person.

3. Now, one misconception everyone seems to have is that I am NOT saying that this is the ONLY way that it should be done for all romance options in the game. In fact, I'm saying the opposite. Each romance should be different and have variety and flavor. That's part of my point. Right now, it is everyone on Celebration Night wanting to suddenly share a moment with you after we'd been traveling together for like a week or more without ANY indication that ANYONE even remotely liked my MC. In fact, almost all the characters seem to have nothing but disdain for the MC the entire time. Gale and Wyl seem friendly enough, but I wasn't getting any romance vibes from them, and Shadowheart is constantly, "Mind your own business and stop prying." That's not exactly an indication that she wants to share an intimate moment with me. So one point I was making is that if Larian is going to do romance at all in the game it should be varied. One night during your travels, Astarion makes his move. Actually, if you played your cards right and let him bite you, that would have made a more perfect time for him to want to do something with you. Maybe not that same night, but maybe a following night within a day or so. After the Githyanki scene, that would be more appropriate for Lae'zel since she would be feeling more in need of some comfort after her kin tried to kill her. She may not admit that she needs comfort, but it would make more sense to me especially if you trusted her to speak and handle it and then you backed her up. Again, it DOESN'T HAVE TO BE EXACTLY LIKE I'M DESCRIBING IT HERE. These are just examples, so please people, stop acting like I'm trying to force Larian to do exactly what I am suggesting. So Lae'zel could still approach you and want to jump your bones, but maybe different timing from others, and maybe she approaches you while you are off alone by the river just trying to clear your head, or maybe she wakes you up while you were sleeping and throws herself at you, or SOMEthing besides, "Hi Lae'zel. How are you tonight here at Celebration Night." "I am impressed by your ability to kill goblin leaders. I want to ravage you." "Wha??? Where did that come from? Well, sorry Lae'zel, but you know Astarion and Shadowheart and Gale and Wyl all want the same thing tonight, so...hmmm... can I pencil you in maybe tomorrow? So many lovers, so little time."

4. As for how intimacy can be played out in a game and story elements incorporated in without a sex scene, this has been done in other games since the dawn of video games. Most games have not had sex scenes and yet still display character personalities, vulnerabilities, etc. without needing a sex scene. You mentioned Minthara. I am at a disadvantage here because I've never played out the Minthara sex scene. However, based on what you have said, I would say that they could still do what you are describing without a sex scene. She's getting all spicy with the MC, trying to dominate the MC, but the MC shoves her up against a wall and gets all rough with her, or he/she pins her down and is aggressive. Some momentary dialogue or whatever. More aggressive behavior on the part of both. Distance shot of the two embracing and vanishing behind some bushes. Fade to black. I don't know. Like I said, I've never played it out so I don't know what you are talking about. Either way, you don't NEED sex to tell such a story.

5. As for more dialogues between party members, you mentioned something about why can't we have both. I'm not sure what you meant. I was basically saying that if there were more dialogue scenes with party members, more banter, more friendship and shared moments, the fact that some of the characters want to sleep with you wouldn't seem so out of place. So I'm not sure what you meant. I was just saying that they need to make it so characters connect more as a whole.

6. I suggested players triggering romance because frankly I don't want every character in the party to be hitting on my MC. I am personally not into the whole homosexual thing, so when Wyl hits on my guy MC, it is a bit uncomfortable for me. I don't like it. I'm a heterosexual, and I'd prefer to not have Wyl or Gale hitting on my male character. Likewise, if I'm playing a female character, I don't want Lae'zel or Shadowheart asking to do things with her. It is just not my cup of tea. I can imagine that I'm not alone with this both from a heterosexual and homosexual perspective. Besides this, some have even expressed their distaste for certain characters like Lae'zel, thinking she's ugly and repulsive. Therefore, let the player choose who they want to romance. That way, they don't have to be approached and solicited by someone they don't want to have relations with. Likewise, if a player doesn't even WANT a romance in the game, they won't have anything triggered at all because they are not triggering any romance. As Blackheifer said, they just like to go around butchering enemies. Who cares about freaking romance? Some players are like that, so why have romance even triggered at all for them. If they don't want it, they don't need to trigger it. Now, that said, if I've triggered a romance encounter in any way, such as a single flirt with a character in particular, THEN they could approach my MC and hit on them, but it should be first initiated by the player.

7. And this goes along with the last thing you asked. Why don't I want Wyl hitting on me? Because in my mind, Wyl and I were becoming close friends, like brothers. It was really weird for me when he suddenly wanted to bunk with me. I was thinking we were going to share a drink and some laughs at the party, and he blindsided me with "Bunk with me." It was just not something that fit. It was weird and out of place. Maybe it wouldn't have felt so weird if I literally had not been solicited by Shadowheart, Astarion and Lae'zel right beforehand. I mean, I was literally thinking, "What? Come on! You too? I mean, seriously. I thought we were bros, and I thought at least YOU wouldn't be trying to sleep with me. The only person who hasn't asked me to sleep with him is Gale." I wanted an option, actually, to just throw back some drinks and joke and enjoy bro moments with Gale and Wyl as opposed to a sexual encounter scenario.

And that's the main point I'm trying to make. There is literally no relationship building at all really. It is just "we're all traveling together" and then Bam! Everyone wants intimacy with you. No one wants to just enjoy the party with you and joke around and laugh and have a good time in any other way but sex or whatever. Variety! That's what I'm calling for. Variety! Let's have some characters just want to party with you and have a good time WITHOUT sex. Maybe Astarion wants to or maybe Lae'zel, but not EVERYONE.

Anyway. Hope that answered your questions. Like I said, I no longer really care about this topic. I'm only responding because you asked me to. Like Blackheifer, I am really only playing BG3 for the story and combat.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Adult content in BG3 - 12/05/21 02:15 PM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Hope that answered your questions. Like I said, I no longer really care about this topic. I'm only responding because you asked me to.
Much better to be honest. smile
But i shall react anyway, even if you dont want to continue, maybe someone else will. wink
And if not ... well, i just waste some time. laugh

Originally Posted by GM4Him
1. ... So it is powerful, but it is not the sum total of romance.
The only thing i can say for this is that we dont really know even whole 1/3 of the story yet.
But over and over i would agree ... asi i said it would be nice to see our character to move into our lover tent, or on his/hers mat. laugh

Originally Posted by GM4Him
2. That is why I said that two people can share very tender moments without having sex. In the game, they could have scenes with you and someone you are courting spending time alone together just enjoying one another's company. You know, actually building a relationship with the person.
I would honestly not like this ...
The main story tempo in BG3 seem quite intensive. o_O
I meam, we both know that nothing will happen, if we long-resting half year before we move from the beach ... but story-wise you dont quite have time to walk around, holding each others hands, smell flowers, enjoy wine under the stars, or simply watch the moon grow.

But i gues this feeling have mostly people who dont Long Rest often.
So if Larian would treat dialogue generator ... so we would no longer be able to miss those conversations, or at least not so easily ...
It might seem a lot better.

Originally Posted by GM4Him
3. ... Right now, it is everyone on Celebration Night wanting to suddenly share a moment with you after we'd been traveling together for like a
week or more without ANY indication that ANYONE even remotely liked my MC.

Actually, if you played your cards right and let him bite you, that would have made a more perfect time for him to want to do something with you. Maybe not that same night, but maybe a following night within a day or so.
After the Githyanki scene, that would be more appropriate for Lae'zel since she would be feeling more in need of some comfort after her kin tried to kill her. She may not admit that she needs comfort, but it would make more sense to me especially if you trusted her to speak and handle it and then you backed her up.

maybe she approaches you while you are off alone by the river just trying to clear your head, or maybe she wakes you up while you were sleeping and throws herself at you

"Hi Lae'zel. How are you tonight here at Celebration Night." "I am impressed by your ability to kill goblin leaders. I want to ravage you." "Wha??? Where did that come from? Well, sorry Lae'zel, but you know Astarion and Shadowheart and Gale and Wyl all want the same thing tonight, so...hmmm... can I pencil you in maybe tomorrow? So many lovers, so little time."
I cut this one a little, to make it shorter ... but then my need of formating text in some way answered and its actualy longer. :-/

Celebration Night >
I really believe this is purely intented ... as i said before, its intense experience such battle, and when someone celebrates after ... he might loot at your character by lets say fresh eyes. Traumatic experience are often source of strong bonds, it might seem odd, but personaly i found this celebration sex perfectly fitting the situation. :-/
Same goes with "didnt notice romantic intentions ... maybe they wasnt, before. laugh

Astarion and Lae'zel >
I have one tiny problem with both this sugestions, and its the fact that you dont like that they want to sleep with you after single event ... and then you are sugesting simple switching that single event for another single event. O_o
I would get it if you would proposing, that could start another intimate moment (and it dont have to be sex) ... but switching trigger from one quest complete to another one dont really seem to change anything. O_o

Lae'zel approaching >
I like those ideas, maybe they will use them somehow. smile
There is stream nearby after all, it sound perfect for some of our lovers to "ambush" us there, for example when our character want to take a bath. :P

Conversation >
As she specificly say, in that battle you simply earned her company tonight ... its just that, nothing more, nothing less.
It sounds perfectly fiting her profile, i would not change that honestly.

Originally Posted by GM4Him
4. ... Fade to black.
Seems to me like, if Larian add this option to settings, you would be totally happy about this whole topic. laugh smile

Originally Posted by GM4Him
5. As for more dialogues between party members, you mentioned something about why can't we have both. I'm not sure what you meant. I was basically saying that if there were more dialogue scenes with party members, more banter, more friendship and shared moments, the fact that some of the characters want to sleep with you wouldn't seem so out of place. So I'm not sure what you meant. I was just saying that they need to make it so characters connect more as a whole.
Well that is simple ... characters can connect either before, or after sex ...
So far, Shadowheart (and maybe Gale, kinda) seem to be only one who is connecting before.

But i really believe we can have both. smile

Originally Posted by GM4Him
6. I suggested players triggering romance because frankly I don't want every character in the party to be hitting on my MC.
Wich kinda returns us (with huge detour to be honest) to the very reason this (or some simmilar?) topic was started. laugh

The companions player-sexuality seem just odd.
I agree. Totally! They should all have some prefferences, and some boundaries in both matters of Gender, and Races.

Originally Posted by GM4Him
I am personally not into the whole homosexual thing, so when Wyl hits on my guy MC, it is a bit uncomfortable for me. I don't like it. I'm a heterosexual, and I'd prefer to not have Wyl or Gale hitting on my male character. Likewise, if I'm playing a female character, I don't want Lae'zel or Shadowheart asking to do things with her. It is just not my cup of tea. I can imagine that I'm not alone with this both from a heterosexual and homosexual perspective. Besides this, some have even expressed their distaste for certain characters like Lae'zel, thinking she's ugly and repulsive. Therefore, let the player choose who they want to romance. That way, they don't have to be approached and solicited by someone they don't want to have relations with. Likewise, if a player doesn't even WANT a romance in the game, they won't have anything triggered at all because they are not triggering any romance.
Now to the real core of point 6.
Its actualy quite interesting to be honest.

Basically, i could say that you are bothered by companions exhibiting the illusion of their own will. O_o
A lot of work in trying to make companions feel more alive, would be lost by this.

Originally Posted by GM4Him
As Blackheifer said, they just like to go around butchering enemies. Who cares about freaking romance? Some players are like that, so why have romance even triggered at all for them. If they don't want it, they don't need to trigger it. Now, that said, if I've triggered a romance encounter in any way, such as a single flirt with a character in particular, THEN they could approach my MC and hit on them, but it should be first initiated by the player.
I believe its in our own hands.
If some player dont care about anything but (as you said) "go around butchering enemies" ... simply dont talk with companions, and problem is solved. laugh
If some player is bothered by sex scenes, all he need to do is either refuse all propositions for sex, or simply dont pick anyone and "go to sleep" alone, that option is there!
And of course, there is allways possbility to skip the scene ... for example i had sex with Minthara 4-6 times, since i kinda enjoy the Evil route and i was also quite curious about those changes after patch 2 (or was it 3? not sure now) ... and i watched it only twice. laugh

So, yeah ... we do have possibilites, therefore i dont see any reason to shape the world for everyone to fit our preferences. O_o

Originally Posted by GM4Him
7. And this goes along with the last thing you asked. Why don't I want Wyl hitting on me? Because in my mind, Wyl and I were becoming close friends, like brothers. It was really weird for me when he suddenly wanted to bunk with me. I was thinking we were going to share a drink and some laughs at the party, and he blindsided me with "Bunk with me." It was just not something that fit. It was weird and out of place. Maybe it wouldn't have felt so weird if I literally had not been solicited by Shadowheart, Astarion and Lae'zel right beforehand. I mean, I was literally thinking, "What? Come on! You too? I mean, seriously. I thought we were bros, and I thought at least YOU wouldn't be trying to sleep with me. The only person who hasn't asked me to sleep with him is Gale." I wanted an option, actually, to just throw back some drinks and joke and enjoy bro moments with Gale and Wyl as opposed to a sexual encounter scenario.
Honestly if you managed to have sex proposition from Lae'zel and Shadowheart in single playthrough ... i applaud you. O_o
I didnt even think that is possible.

I understand what you said about Wyll ...
I was simply not what you have expected. But that dont necesarily mean it was wrong.

Originally Posted by GM4Him
And that's the main point I'm trying to make. There is literally no relationship building at all really. It is just "we're all traveling together" and then Bam! Everyone wants intimacy with you. No one wants to just enjoy the party with you and joke around and laugh and have a good time in any other way but sex or whatever. Variety! That's what I'm calling for. Variety! Let's have some characters just want to party with you and have a good time WITHOUT sex. Maybe Astarion wants to or maybe Lae'zel, but not EVERYONE.
Well, there certainly could be some dialogue option to simply enjoy the party, without any action after ...
I cant imagine it hurting anyone. smile
Posted By: Umbra Re: Adult content in BG3 - 12/05/21 02:27 PM
It's still early doors.

Gale has now got a couple of scenes that set up the romance (or not) - Weave scene and Loss/Campfire scene.

Astarion has one - Stars - where you can flirt pretty heavily with him, and it seemed from datamining that more may be coming.

Shadowheart has one very early on, the second night I think - Beautiful Weapon, and the "This might be our last night together" conversation.

Seems like nothing for the others "Yet".

My point is there's more to be added for the companions, and build-up (or locking out) for the romance is probably part of that.
I hope so, because it will create more satisfying stories. Jealousies and rivalries shouldn't be left out either. Gale vs Astarian is already there, but Player vs Mizora could be an interesting part of any romance with Wyll.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Adult content in BG3 - 12/05/21 04:36 PM
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Hope that answered your questions. Like I said, I no longer really care about this topic. I'm only responding because you asked me to.
Much better to be honest. smile
But i shall react anyway, even if you dont want to continue, maybe someone else will. wink
And if not ... well, i just waste some time. laugh

Originally Posted by GM4Him
1. ... So it is powerful, but it is not the sum total of romance.
The only thing i can say for this is that we dont really know even whole 1/3 of the story yet.
But over and over i would agree ... asi i said it would be nice to see our character to move into our lover tent, or on his/hers mat. laugh

Originally Posted by GM4Him
2. That is why I said that two people can share very tender moments without having sex. In the game, they could have scenes with you and someone you are courting spending time alone together just enjoying one another's company. You know, actually building a relationship with the person.
I would honestly not like this ...
The main story tempo in BG3 seem quite intensive. o_O
I meam, we both know that nothing will happen, if we long-resting half year before we move from the beach ... but story-wise you dont quite have time to walk around, holding each others hands, smell flowers, enjoy wine under the stars, or simply watch the moon grow.

But i gues this feeling have mostly people who dont Long Rest often.
So if Larian would treat dialogue generator ... so we would no longer be able to miss those conversations, or at least not so easily ...
It might seem a lot better.

Originally Posted by GM4Him
3. ... Right now, it is everyone on Celebration Night wanting to suddenly share a moment with you after we'd been traveling together for like a
week or more without ANY indication that ANYONE even remotely liked my MC.

Actually, if you played your cards right and let him bite you, that would have made a more perfect time for him to want to do something with you. Maybe not that same night, but maybe a following night within a day or so.
After the Githyanki scene, that would be more appropriate for Lae'zel since she would be feeling more in need of some comfort after her kin tried to kill her. She may not admit that she needs comfort, but it would make more sense to me especially if you trusted her to speak and handle it and then you backed her up.

maybe she approaches you while you are off alone by the river just trying to clear your head, or maybe she wakes you up while you were sleeping and throws herself at you

"Hi Lae'zel. How are you tonight here at Celebration Night." "I am impressed by your ability to kill goblin leaders. I want to ravage you." "Wha??? Where did that come from? Well, sorry Lae'zel, but you know Astarion and Shadowheart and Gale and Wyl all want the same thing tonight, so...hmmm... can I pencil you in maybe tomorrow? So many lovers, so little time."
I cut this one a little, to make it shorter ... but then my need of formating text in some way answered and its actualy longer. :-/

Celebration Night >
I really believe this is purely intented ... as i said before, its intense experience such battle, and when someone celebrates after ... he might loot at your character by lets say fresh eyes. Traumatic experience are often source of strong bonds, it might seem odd, but personaly i found this celebration sex perfectly fitting the situation. :-/
Same goes with "didnt notice romantic intentions ... maybe they wasnt, before. laugh

Astarion and Lae'zel >
I have one tiny problem with both this sugestions, and its the fact that you dont like that they want to sleep with you after single event ... and then you are sugesting simple switching that single event for another single event. O_o
I would get it if you would proposing, that could start another intimate moment (and it dont have to be sex) ... but switching trigger from one quest complete to another one dont really seem to change anything. O_o

Lae'zel approaching >
I like those ideas, maybe they will use them somehow. smile
There is stream nearby after all, it sound perfect for some of our lovers to "ambush" us there, for example when our character want to take a bath. :P

Conversation >
As she specificly say, in that battle you simply earned her company tonight ... its just that, nothing more, nothing less.
It sounds perfectly fiting her profile, i would not change that honestly.

Originally Posted by GM4Him
4. ... Fade to black.
Seems to me like, if Larian add this option to settings, you would be totally happy about this whole topic. laugh smile

Originally Posted by GM4Him
5. As for more dialogues between party members, you mentioned something about why can't we have both. I'm not sure what you meant. I was basically saying that if there were more dialogue scenes with party members, more banter, more friendship and shared moments, the fact that some of the characters want to sleep with you wouldn't seem so out of place. So I'm not sure what you meant. I was just saying that they need to make it so characters connect more as a whole.
Well that is simple ... characters can connect either before, or after sex ...
So far, Shadowheart (and maybe Gale, kinda) seem to be only one who is connecting before.

But i really believe we can have both. smile

Originally Posted by GM4Him
6. I suggested players triggering romance because frankly I don't want every character in the party to be hitting on my MC.
Wich kinda returns us (with huge detour to be honest) to the very reason this (or some simmilar?) topic was started. laugh

The companions player-sexuality seem just odd.
I agree. Totally! They should all have some prefferences, and some boundaries in both matters of Gender, and Races.

Originally Posted by GM4Him
I am personally not into the whole homosexual thing, so when Wyl hits on my guy MC, it is a bit uncomfortable for me. I don't like it. I'm a heterosexual, and I'd prefer to not have Wyl or Gale hitting on my male character. Likewise, if I'm playing a female character, I don't want Lae'zel or Shadowheart asking to do things with her. It is just not my cup of tea. I can imagine that I'm not alone with this both from a heterosexual and homosexual perspective. Besides this, some have even expressed their distaste for certain characters like Lae'zel, thinking she's ugly and repulsive. Therefore, let the player choose who they want to romance. That way, they don't have to be approached and solicited by someone they don't want to have relations with. Likewise, if a player doesn't even WANT a romance in the game, they won't have anything triggered at all because they are not triggering any romance.
Now to the real core of point 6.
Its actualy quite interesting to be honest.

Basically, i could say that you are bothered by companions exhibiting the illusion of their own will. O_o
A lot of work in trying to make companions feel more alive, would be lost by this.

Originally Posted by GM4Him
As Blackheifer said, they just like to go around butchering enemies. Who cares about freaking romance? Some players are like that, so why have romance even triggered at all for them. If they don't want it, they don't need to trigger it. Now, that said, if I've triggered a romance encounter in any way, such as a single flirt with a character in particular, THEN they could approach my MC and hit on them, but it should be first initiated by the player.
I believe its in our own hands.
If some player dont care about anything but (as you said) "go around butchering enemies" ... simply dont talk with companions, and problem is solved. laugh
If some player is bothered by sex scenes, all he need to do is either refuse all propositions for sex, or simply dont pick anyone and "go to sleep" alone, that option is there!
And of course, there is allways possbility to skip the scene ... for example i had sex with Minthara 4-6 times, since i kinda enjoy the Evil route and i was also quite curious about those changes after patch 2 (or was it 3? not sure now) ... and i watched it only twice. laugh

So, yeah ... we do have possibilites, therefore i dont see any reason to shape the world for everyone to fit our preferences. O_o

Originally Posted by GM4Him
7. And this goes along with the last thing you asked. Why don't I want Wyl hitting on me? Because in my mind, Wyl and I were becoming close friends, like brothers. It was really weird for me when he suddenly wanted to bunk with me. I was thinking we were going to share a drink and some laughs at the party, and he blindsided me with "Bunk with me." It was just not something that fit. It was weird and out of place. Maybe it wouldn't have felt so weird if I literally had not been solicited by Shadowheart, Astarion and Lae'zel right beforehand. I mean, I was literally thinking, "What? Come on! You too? I mean, seriously. I thought we were bros, and I thought at least YOU wouldn't be trying to sleep with me. The only person who hasn't asked me to sleep with him is Gale." I wanted an option, actually, to just throw back some drinks and joke and enjoy bro moments with Gale and Wyl as opposed to a sexual encounter scenario.
Honestly if you managed to have sex proposition from Lae'zel and Shadowheart in single playthrough ... i applaud you. O_o
I didnt even think that is possible.

I understand what you said about Wyll ...
I was simply not what you have expected. But that dont necesarily mean it was wrong.

Originally Posted by GM4Him
And that's the main point I'm trying to make. There is literally no relationship building at all really. It is just "we're all traveling together" and then Bam! Everyone wants intimacy with you. No one wants to just enjoy the party with you and joke around and laugh and have a good time in any other way but sex or whatever. Variety! That's what I'm calling for. Variety! Let's have some characters just want to party with you and have a good time WITHOUT sex. Maybe Astarion wants to or maybe Lae'zel, but not EVERYONE.
Well, there certainly could be some dialogue option to simply enjoy the party, without any action after ...
I cant imagine it hurting anyone. smile

I don't even know where to begin. It's becoming too lengthy. You are questioning a lot of items and wanting me to go in depth into each. Maybe let's handle one at a time. If you have a question about why I want something, let's just call out each one separately per comment.

So, I guess I'll start with "always good to be honest." I'm not sure why you said this. I'm always being honest. I've been honest about my feelings and opinions the whole time. If I wasn't, I would have just gone along with so many others and what they are saying and what they want. It certainly would have been easier on me to just go with the flow as opposed to throwing myself into the midst of it and trying to stand in the way.

As for the whole "holding hands" and "smelling flowers," it doesn't take much to do this. A quick cutscene showing two people strolling along. A few seconds and it's over. Just showing they are spending time together and laughing and enjoying each other's company. Boom. Done.

But, ultimately, that isn't even necessary. I get that this is only 1/3 of the game, so if they do have more dialogues between the MC and the one(s) they are trying to court, that would be perfectly fine. I'm just saying, right now, as is, the sequences are not romantic. It's all just Adventure and then Sex and then Adventure. All I'm suggesting is that before Sex, there should be more dialogues AS we Adventure. While on my way from the Grove to Blighted Village, we run into the Selune Statue. Have a moment where Shadowheart pulls the MC to the side, AWAY from everyone else, and during that time she gets a bit close to you and confides something in you. Something more one-on-one off away from the others to show that the MC is getting closer with Shadowheart and that she's getting more comfortable with the MC. Later, after talking to the gobbos with Wyl, he pulls you aside and confides in you. You share a one-on-one moment while adventuring. Not just in camp.
Posted By: mrfuji3 Re: Adult content in BG3 - 12/05/21 04:46 PM
Please use spoiler tags or just @ the poster you're responding to if there's a lot of text.

I should not have to scroll for multiple seconds to get past a single post, especially if it's presenting info I already had to scroll through earlier in the thread.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Adult content in BG3 - 12/05/21 04:56 PM
First of all ...
You know there is litteraly no reason to quote whooooooooooooole post, even more when its this long ... especialy when your reaction is just next to it? O_o

Second ...
I never said, you were not honest ... i said, you answering the questions was much better than previous post, wich didnt help me a lot, to be honest. laugh
I dunno how to say it differently, maybe i should have use this full sentence previously. laugh

Third ...
The point of holding hands its not it would be hard work, but it dont fit to the story. :-/
Just imagine:
"Lets rush, we have tadpoles in our heads, we dont know how many time we still have!"
"Lets rush, we need to resolve situation between Tieflings and Kagha, bcs otherwise she kill them all!"
"Lets rush, we need to attack the Goblin leaders, before they find and attack the groove!"
"Its okey, we have time, lets take a day off. Lay to the grass and enjoy flying butterflies."

And finaly ...
Yup. We have Adventure > Sex > Adventure ...
And that is exactly what it is, and exactly what it should be. laugh
I know we are using word "romance" wich isnt entirely fitting ... but that is just word. It dont mean that everything have to be romantic.
Same as Races are, even if some "races" are actualy completely different species, and other races are different from another races only by their culture.
I had in mind one more word, but i forget it. laugh

I would certainly not mind any conversation added, unless i spend 2 minutes hunting for cure against my tadpolisation, and 15 minutes building my relationships. That would be other bad extreme. laugh -_-
Posted By: Blackheifer Re: Adult content in BG3 - 12/05/21 05:13 PM
Originally Posted by Nyloth
Off-topic, but I've always been surprised by players like you. In such games, each character has a personal story, a series of quests, and you just lose a lot of content... It's so strange to me, but everyone has their own way, so yes.

So the subtext of what I was saying is that no one matters unless you decide they matter. The content you lose is replaced by the content you create with other people. This is the story that we tell together.


“Nobody exists on purpose. Nobody belongs anywhere. Everybody's gonna die. Come watch TV”

― Morty
Posted By: Sozz Re: Adult content in BG3 - 12/05/21 06:32 PM
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
Originally Posted by Nyloth
Off-topic, but I've always been surprised by players like you. In such games, each character has a personal story, a series of quests, and you just lose a lot of content... It's so strange to me, but everyone has their own way, so yes.

So the subtext of what I was saying is that no one matters unless you decide they matter. The content you lose is replaced by the content you create with other people. This is the story that we tell together.


“Nobody exists on purpose. Nobody belongs anywhere. Everybody's gonna die. Come watch TV”

― Morty

You're confusing real life with storytelling
Posted By: Umbra Re: Adult content in BG3 - 12/05/21 09:29 PM
And just one person's experience of real life too. there's a whole world of different ideas and opportunities out there. it's great that theses are finally being represented in games, but I'd be nice if folks could be a little kinder and open minded about the way other folks lead other lives.

Sorry, but (not sorry) my experience is different, there are many routes to happiness, not just an idealised romantisized path. the dirty alleys lead to happiness just as often as the flowered paths do. Broaden your horizons a little and let the game do the same for others.

Honestly, you never know how homo/hetero/bi/whatever-phobic a person will be untill you come out of your shell at huge personal phycological expense and get treated like shit.
Posted By: Boblawblah Re: Adult content in BG3 - 12/05/21 09:37 PM
I don't understand, all @Blackheifer said was he doesn't like the origin characters and makes his own stories with created characters/friends. How is that -phobic in any way?
Posted By: Umbra Re: Adult content in BG3 - 12/05/21 09:46 PM
Dunno, wasn't replying to BH or I'd've quoted them. I was replying to the most prolific poster but the quotes are way out of hand already.
Posted By: Boblawblah Re: Adult content in BG3 - 12/05/21 09:48 PM
sorry -.-* i followed the quote chain and it took me from you to sozz to blackheifer. it's hard to follow these quotes sometimes lol
Posted By: Alexandrite Re: Adult content in BG3 - 12/05/21 11:15 PM
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
The point of holding hands its not it would be hard work, but it dont fit to the story. :-/
Just imagine:
"Lets rush, we have tadpoles in our heads, we dont know how many time we still have!"
"Lets rush, we need to resolve situation between Tieflings and Kagha, bcs otherwise she kill them all!"
"Lets rush, we need to attack the Goblin leaders, before they find and attack the grove!"
"Its okey, we have time, lets take a day off. Lay to the grass and enjoy flying butterflies."

And finaly ...
Yup. We have Adventure > Sex > Adventure ...
And that is exactly what it is, and exactly what it should be. laugh
I know we are using word "romance" wich isnt entirely fitting ... but that is just word. It dont mean that everything have to be romantic.

EXACTLY.

I think we're beating a dead horse here now, but one more whack shouldn't hurt... :P

Let's compare to Dragon Age Inquisition which I am currently re-playing while waiting for Patch 5 in this game, so my impressions are fresh. (Apologies for any spoilers, but honestly, it's 7 years old, I think I'm the only person who hasn't finished that game to the end. :P )
In that game, you DO in fact have time to get to know your companions. You get a hidden fortress in the mountains so your enemy can't find you easily. You have as many diplomatic/political missions as you do adventure, which builds both your XP and your power/influence in the world, and allows you time to chat with companions, do their personal quests, romance them etc. And most importantly, the companions in DA:I are there because they believe in you, and they follow your cause, and the cause of the Inquisition. Furthermore, because these people came to join YOU of their own free will, it makes sense that they can become interested in you as a person and not just their leader. Also, they have romantic personalities. Cassandra the fighter dreams of being wooed with flowers and poetry. Solas has his underlying goals but is literally falling in love with you without intending to. Sera is, well, Sera, but she proposes to marry you. Etc.


In this game? COMPLETELY DIFFERENT SITUATION.
You have a group of random adventurers brought together by circumstance. At first, all you have in common with each other is the fact that you have literal worms burrowing in your heads. Literal worms. And all of the companions have COMPLETELY different personalities! They don't follow you because they believe in your ideals or what you represent to the world - they follow you because this accidental rag-tag group is their best hope of dealing with the tadpole problem at hand.

- Shadowheart is the best example of romance done in the way GM4Him ideally wants - her scene is sweet, getting-to-know-each-other, and is not sexual. She does not pounce on you at the camp party, she wants to get to know you first.
- Gale is probably the next closest example of a "hopeless romantic" personality. He is intelligent, has a cat and a library, and fell hopelessly in love with a Goddess. You're there to play second fiddle... no wait, you're there to remind him there could be something to love in the real world. And you do get two very romantic, very flirty scenes with him beforehand, before he starts quoting the Kama Sutra at you.
- Astarion is a vampire. Vampires in books and stories, at least from Bram Stoker's "Dracula" onwards through to Anne Rice, etc, have always been sexual, seductive creatures. They are literally sex with fangs. It's a huge part of why vampires in general, and Astarion in particular, are so popular. There have been a ton of analyses done on vampires in literature and what part of the human psyche they represent. OF COURSE he wants to have sex with you. Furthermore, he has just been "rescued" (his words) from two centures of mental, physical and probably sexual abuse. That takes a lot of time and therapy to get over - he knows seduction, not tenderness. That said, his Stargazing scene is actually very nice and flirty if you play it that way.
- By the time of the Tiefling party, Wyll's goblin revenge problem has been solved, and his demon problem remains - but of course, he wants to relax and forget about that problem just for one night. Also, he's not a knight in shining armour, he is a high-Charisma self-declared "Hero" who talks the talk even more than he walks the walk. Can you imagine how many people have thrown themselves at him in the past, just for his reputation?
- Lae'zel has been thoroughly analysed here previously. :P If you tried to give her flowers or take her for a moonlight stroll, she would a) not understand, and b) just kill you.

With all of these personalities and the situation in this game, it makes complete and total sense for the game's plot, and the sex, to unfold as it does.

We can't - and shouldn't - be trying to impose one single ideal of romantic love on all of these characters.
Posted By: Sozz Re: Adult content in BG3 - 13/05/21 01:20 AM
I don't think many people get the exact romance they want from any story they read/play/watch, but because you empathize with the characters in the story, you're taken along with them during the narrative. When someone says "love leads to sex but sex doesn't equal love" I find it a bit of a non sequitur, we're being told a story with casual sex in it, you only seem to be taking issue with it because we've all been conditioned to expect 'romance' be a part of the game and you're afraid the casual sex is what Larian considers a romance plot-line. I think it is what it seems to be, casual intimacy that may lead to further intimacy between the characters.

We have companions who are happy to have sex with you, and we have companions who aren't, in fact, their interactions during the celebration scene seem to be Larian telling us how each character treats intimacy on these levels.

The above also seems to be in argument for the removal of the depiction of sex from the game, I'll never be in favor of censoring something because if offends someone. But I understand where it comes from. I like comics, for a while they were all-ages fare, but as the stories became more mature and adult oriented, the absence of sex became a hang-up, the comics trying to tell adult stories didn't feel complete without it, comics in other countries which never truly pigeonholed their comics by age bracket are good examples of the diversity of story that could be told in this medium. The inverse is also true, I'm a fan of comics, so I am also well aware of what happens when sex becomes a gratuitous add-on, with little function beyond titillation. That line is something people argue over but I don't think we as fans of RPGs should be trying to tell creators to check themselves like this.

In summary, 90s comics suck...that's what we're talking about right?
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Adult content in BG3 - 13/05/21 02:49 AM
I wasn't trying to force my ideals or some sort of single concept of romance on the game. This has all been a monumental misunderstanding. I don't even care that much. As I have said, romance in the game is probably one of the least of my cares.

I was only offering my suggestions and opinions that I thought would make the game better, and I was giving reasons why I thought they were good ideas because some kept asking me to do so. I only responded recently because RagnarokCzD asked me to explain myself.

Sorry about the quote. I actually didn't mean to post that long back and forth. I copied it to try to see everything RagnarokCzD said. I planned on deleting it all after my response and just forgot it was there.

You all disagree with me, so fine. I'm not calling anyone names or getting all mad or disrespectful. I'm not passing judgment or throwing a fit. I was just stating an opinion...an opinion that is obviously not welcomed.
Posted By: Sozz Re: Adult content in BG3 - 13/05/21 02:59 AM
I still think the conversation's been worthwhile
Posted By: vometia Re: Adult content in BG3 - 13/05/21 04:40 AM
Originally Posted by Innateagle
Don't feel bad. People are interpreting your words as they see fit and running with it. Tbh, kudos for even replying to [redacted]'s mental diarrhea for as long as you did. Shit's stroke worthy.

And I think on that note it's time to call it a day. Sorry, folks, but in spite of repeated requests to keep it civil and attempts to clean up this thread there are still some people who can't engage responsibly.
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