Larian Studios
When we get to actually see the city of Baldurs Gate.

This is what i am looking forward to most and i have very high expectations of this upcoming experience.

I am expecting this city to be modeled and rendered immaculately with more depth and character as what we experienced in BG2 when we visited Athkatla.

I think the current act 1 we are playing in EA is just a warm up to the vast city we are about to experience.

Can you guys please share your thoughts on this?
Most likely it will be the final map of the game. Same way Arx was in DOS2.
I just hope it feels at least as vibrant as say Novigrad was in Witcher 3.

Baldur's Gate is a big deal and it deserves a degree of reverance. Not that it should be a millstone around the developer's necks, but yeah, it's kind of a big deal!
what was novigrad like? i quit witcher 3 before i reached it?
Originally Posted by Chief_Jericho
Most likely it will be the final map of the game. Same way Arx was in DOS2.
Going with hints Larian people gave in the past, it's supposed to be the focus of "Act 2", which in itself is supposed to be "the biggest Act by far" out of the three that are going to structure the entire game.

One thing I can already tell I won't be trilled about is having the city frozen in a single moment in time (like the rest of the game) and without a single hint of a day/night cycle.
You'd imagine exploring the streets of the city in daylight and when the night falls, looking at street lamps turning on, being careful of not being ambushed by thugs in dark alleys, etc, etc...
Instead Larian decided that the whole day/night thing, that has been a standard feature in the genre since the days of the Ultima series, was some fanciful waste of resources compared to CORE features like "I can replay the game as one of my companions".
So no Baldur's Gate at night for us.

What a bummer.

Originally Posted by teclis23
what was novigrad like? i quit witcher 3 before i reached it?
In terms of 3D modeling/assets/details? The golden standard for a medieval big city in a RPG any title in the genre should aspire to.
Not exceedingly interactive, on the other hand.
Stuff like Gothic 2 and Ultima VII did more for immersion, if on a smaller scale.
Originally Posted by Tuco
One thing I can already tell I won't be trilled about is having the city frozen in a single moment in time (like the rest of the game) and without a single hint of a day/night cycle.
You'd imagine exploring the streets of the city in daylight and when the night falls, looking at street lamps turning on, being careful of not being ambushed by thugs in dark alleys, etc, etc...

I thought it was fudged quite well with Aleroth in Divinity 2. But yeah, I'd prefer to have seen a day & night cycle. Well, ish, I always feel that most games seem to get the timescale really badly wrong in what is admittedly probably a case of "read my mind and do what I want at this moment dammit".
Yep... No Day and Night cycle is quite frankly a design choice I cannot get behind, even understanding the MP limitations that were part of the reason. A way should have been found as I just find a proper Day and night cycle adds a deeper layer of graphical immersion and allows you to play with the light sensitivity aspects of certain races.
Originally Posted by Riandor
Yep... No Day and Night cycle is quite frankly a design choice I cannot get behind, even understanding the MP limitations that were part of the reason. A way should have been found as I just find a proper Day and night cycle adds a deeper layer of graphical immersion and allows you to play with the light sensitivity aspects of certain races.
it was a very simple limitation to work around in the end: "Freeze the clock for everyone when one of the players is in turn based mode. Make it march again when all the players are in real time".
I mean, the limitation that everyone needs to agree for a long rest (and that no one can be in combat) was already in place, anyway. So it's not like that was going to make a big difference.
Sure, the length of the day (or night) may extend a bit even for the player that was in "real time all the time". But so what?

Sometime I hear the designers at Larian saying things about "design challenges" that make me think of the proverbial "drowning in a glass of water".
Like when one of their lead gameplay designers explained on stream that "Sure, in pen & paper the player can choose to spend his battlemaster points (aka "superiority dice") only after he's sure a hit lands, but that wouldn't work in a videogame because it would break the flow of the action, so... tough luck for him".
Ehr...? What about doing so that you DON'T SPEND THE POINT if you miss the attack, without needing to "break", "pause" or "interrupt" anything?
I'm kinda hoping that our long rest area will greatly expand when we reach Baldur's Gate. As in, instead of being tied to one of the taverns, we can roam a night time version of the city or at least part of the city. I'd be ok with that in the absence of a proper day / night cycle.
In the BG I-II series, the darkness of night provided a significant benefit to stealth. And for the city of Baldur's Gate, Narlen Darkwalk very understandably conducted his heists only at night ... *gasp* does this mean that Narlen won't ... oh, I can't write any further.
It will be a unremitting farce if we can only walk around the city in permanent midday sun. All daylight and no night time/weather/calendar makes Jack a dull boy.
i would be very disappointed to have Baldur's Gate be stuck in a perpetual state of sunniness with no night/day/weather cycle. It's amazing just how much of an effect weather and day/night has on the atmosphere of a game.
I can't imagine the city looking too lively. So far in BG3 NPCs are pretty static, so I can't imagine the city of Baldur;s Gate feeling much alive by modern standards - and who knows maybe Larian will pull the card of "city under attack" again, like they did in D:OS2.

If anything, I think BG1&2 got a way with a lot thanks to nice ambient tracks - those created an atmosphere of crown and liveliness that wasn't present in actual locations. Later games never replicated that, even PoE2, which IMO has one of best cities in isometric RPGs.

As to OP: I doubt we will see the city of Baldur's Gate until 1.0. As far as campaign content, what we got is most likely all what we will see.
Although I doubt they will end up doing a day night cycle, I am willing to bet they will have something like night missions or something once we reach BG.
According to the NPCs in the game, all roads will eventually lead to Baldur's Gate. I'm sure with the amazing graphics we have so far, we won't be disappointed.

In regards to the day/night cycle, I would very much like to see that happen, and have a feeling it will happen eventually. At the very least, seeing as Astarion is the only vampire that can walk in the sun, dealing with Cazador who is in/near Baldur's Gate is going to REQUIRE a night-time quest line.
Originally Posted by Alexandrite
According to the NPCs in the game, all roads will eventually lead to Baldur's Gate. I'm sure with the amazing graphics we have so far, we won't be disappointed.

In regards to the day/night cycle, I would very much like to see that happen, and have a feeling it will happen eventually. At the very least, seeing as Astarion is the only vampire that can walk in the sun, dealing with Cazador who is in/near Baldur's Gate is going to REQUIRE a night-time quest line.
And yet I'm afraid we'll see some stratagem as palliative instead.
Like "You'll face Cazador only underground or "that mission (or even just a part of it) will play in a separated, instanced nocturne map used only for that encounter".
Nightime gameplay is a pretty huge part of the Baldurs gate series. There are tons of iconic areas that people clearly remember during nights. Definitely not <<cosmetics>>.; as Larian seems to think. Its part of the world building and atmosphere of the series.
Some events/dialogues/quests could only happen during nighttime. It was extremely moody. Some abilities were tied to nighttime. The music changed, the environmental effects changed...
Instead of REGRESSING BACK , because for whatever excuse they come up with THATS whats happening here, in 2021 they could of even improved more that system. A very bad decision on Larian's part.
BioWare jettisoned the Day/Night cycle for Throne of Bhaal.

On their forums, back when BioWare had forums, they explained that the Day/Night cycle was more of a bother than a feature.
There was a frustration from fans about waiting around for shops to open and the implementation of clicking on a map traveling for 36 hours and showing up exhausted, without having rested, was pretty ridiculous.

In truth not having a Day/Night cycle is the choice that is consistent with the BG series as that's how BioWare evolved the gameplay for Throne of Bhaal.
Originally Posted by Alodar
BioWare jettisoned the Day/Night cycle for Throne of Bhaal.
Yeah ,but Throne of Bhaal was set in a pocket dimension.


Quote
On their forums, back when BioWare had forums, they explained that the Day/Night cycle was more of a bother than a feature.
Which they were wrong about. But that's easy to dismiss when the rest of your game is already sustained by the feature and you apply your new shitty rule just to your power romping final act.


Quote
There was a frustration from fans about waiting around for shops to open and the implementation of clicking on a map traveling for 36 hours and showing up exhausted, without having rested, was pretty ridiculous.

In truth not having a Day/Night cycle is the choice that is consistent with the BG series as that's how BioWare evolved the gameplay for Throne of Bhaal.
Wow. That's a load of condescending, dismissive bollocks.
Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by Alodar
BioWare jettisoned the Day/Night cycle for Throne of Bhaal.
Yeah ,but Throne of Bhaal was set in a pocket dimension.

Parts of it were. Parts of it were not.


Quote
Quote
On their forums, back when BioWare had forums, they explained that the Day/Night cycle was more of a bother than a feature.
Which they were wrong about. But that's easy to dismiss when the rest of your game is already sustained by the feature and you apply your new shitty rule just to your power romping final act.
That their opinion was different from yours does not make theirs wrong.
Game developers tend to make choices based on all available data, which doesn't always agree with individual opinions.

Quote
Quote
There was a frustration from fans about waiting around for shops to open and the implementation of clicking on a map traveling for 36 hours and showing up exhausted, without having rested, was pretty ridiculous.

In truth not having a Day/Night cycle is the choice that is consistent with the BG series as that's how BioWare evolved the gameplay for Throne of Bhaal.
Wow. That's a load of condescending, dismissive bollocks.

Nothing condescending or dismissive about it.
It is an accurate accounting of the evolution of the series.

You prefer a Day/Night Cycle.
BioWare moved away from it and Larian is following in their footsteps.
Claiming that the only thing a day/night cycle added was "getting tired after a long travel and waiting for shops to open" *IS* dismissive and condescending. Not to mention oblivious to reality.
Especially when the last like, dozen posts in this thread talk about different things that it adds.
Originally Posted by Tuco
Claiming that the only thing a day/night cycle added was "getting tired after a long travel and waiting for shops to open" *IS* dismissive and condescending. Not to mention oblivious to reality.

Originally Posted by qwerrecd42
Especially when the last like, dozen posts in this thread talk about different things that it adds.

I would request that you re-read my post.
I never claimed it was the only thing that the Day/Night cycle added.
I supplied you with the reasons BioWare gave for getting rid of it.

The last installment of the Baldur's Gate Series did not have a Day/Night cycle because the developers of the game decided the feature did not positively effect gameplay.
You may not agree with that decision but that is how the Baldur's Gate series has evolved.
Originally Posted by Alodar
I would request that you re-read my post.
I never claimed it was the only thing that the Day/Night cycle added.
I supplied you with the reasons BioWare gave for getting rid of it.

Fair enough

Originally Posted by Alodar
You may not agree with that decision but that is how the Baldur's Gate series has evolved.

I don't agree, which is why I'm voicing my opinion here. I'd just like to see Larian acknowledge some of the feedback here, given that they explicitly stated that player feedback would drive the conversation. From their EA quotes on steam:

"we also listen to forum feedback and use that to drive internal debate. We create massive, sprawling games, and we couldn’t possibly explore every single permutation and combination of skills, choices, reactions and conclusions without our community."
Originally Posted by qwerrecd42
Originally Posted by Alodar
You may not agree with that decision but that is how the Baldur's Gate series has evolved.

I don't agree, which is why I'm voicing my opinion here. I'd just like to see Larian acknowledge some of the feedback here, given that they explicitly stated that player feedback would drive the conversation. From their EA quotes on steam:

"we also listen to forum feedback and use that to drive internal debate. We create massive, sprawling games, and we couldn’t possibly explore every single permutation and combination of skills, choices, reactions and conclusions without our community."

That is absolutely what these forums are for.
I would never object to anyone expressing their opinion.

The only reason I was commenting in this thread is that folks were stating that Larian had removed the Day/Night cycle from Baldur's Gate series and that's simply not true.
Who was stating that "Larian had removed the Day/Night cycle from Baldur's Gate"?

As far as I can see, people are saying that the original Baldur's gate games had night and day and that DoS2 didn't and BG3 doesn't and that they'd like it to.
Huh? Saradush had day & night cycles, you can even see it on YouTube videos. Night enables many unique things ... infravision, enhanced stealth, Ring of Shooting Stars, will-o-wisps, glowing potion bottles, peeping frogs, ladies/gentlemen of the evening, shadows, etc. Back to the original topic, Baldur's Gate is really two different cities, one under the sun and one under the stars. I do hope we get to see both!
Removing something that adds immensely to world immersion and gameplay can hardly be called 'evolved'.
Originally Posted by mr_planescapist
Nightime gameplay is a pretty huge part of the Baldurs gate series.
May be ...
But that is one of problems with sequels, if developer say "this changes now", it simply "changes now".

It was also huge part of Star Wars, that you were not able to track ships in hyperspace, or jump into hyperspace within gravity well of planet ... until in last movie they was litteraly jumping from planet SURFACE to planet SURFACE ... followed by so unequipped Tie-fighter that they dont even have shields, yet somehow they manage to implement technology that in last movie required computer of the size of Dreadnought ...
And why? Bcs director said "this changes now" ... and it did. :-/
Originally Posted by Boblawblah
Who was stating that "Larian had removed the Day/Night cycle from Baldur's Gate"?

As far as I can see, people are saying that the original Baldur's gate games had night and day and that DoS2 didn't and BG3 doesn't and that they'd like it to.

Swen talked about it one of his interviews. Didn't he?
Originally Posted by Alodar
BioWare jettisoned the Day/Night cycle for Throne of Bhaal.

On their forums, back when BioWare had forums, they explained that the Day/Night cycle was more of a bother than a feature.
There was a frustration from fans about waiting around for shops to open and the implementation of clicking on a map traveling for 36 hours and showing up exhausted, without having rested, was pretty ridiculous.

In truth not having a Day/Night cycle is the choice that is consistent with the BG series as that's how BioWare evolved the gameplay for Throne of Bhaal.
I completely agree with this criticism. However, there are some better ways to implement day/night circles.
Originally Posted by Alodar
Originally Posted by Tuco
Wow. That's a load of condescending, dismissive bollocks.

Nothing condescending or dismissive about it.
It is an accurate accounting of the evolution of the series.

You prefer a Day/Night Cycle.
BioWare moved away from it and Larian is following in their footsteps.

Well, quite. I didn't see it as condescension, just preference, though my personal preference is for a day/night cycle even if it is sometimes (or often) inconvenient; though there're plenty of games where the day/night cycle is only cosmetic or makes only a few differences to spawns but where shops stay open 24 hours a day.

I still prefer it even if it is purely cosmetic. Though I don't object to the way Divinity 2 and Bioware do it where various places are stuck at one particular time of day (even if it does seem to vary as you wander about in D2) I'd much prefer proper day and night.
How could you compare the old games with this new one and use the TOB argument ?

In the old games you HAVE to go to the merchants all the time, just to buy arrows and to sell things because your inventory is very limited.
And waiting is tedious because "you cannot rest here" or because "I serve the Flaming Fist".

In BG3 you never have to go to the merchant except to buy a better armor or a better weapon a few times.

How could it be a problem to wait for a shop to open in a game where shop is something you just don't really need and/or in which you can easily wait.
Was that a complaint in games like Kingdom Come Deliverance or the Witcher 3 ? I don't think so... and it also wasn't only cosmetic...
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
How could you compare the old games with this new one and use the TOB argument ?

In the old games you HAVE to go to the merchants all the time, just to buy arrows and to sell things because your inventory is limited.
In BG3 you never have to except to buy a better armor or a better weapon once or twice.

How could it be a problem to wait for a shop to open in a game where shop is something you just don't really need and/or in which you can easily wait.
Was that a complaint in games like Kingdom Come Deliverance or the Witcher 3 ? I don't think so... and it also wasn't only cosmetic...

As for the witcher 3, I don't even remember if it was really a cosmetic. Time probably didn't matter in general there. What did it matter if you could change your time freely at any time.
Kingdom Come is a slightly different story, the game was primarily realism (to exaggeration) for which it was also heavily criticized.
Originally Posted by Rhobar121
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
How could you compare the old games with this new one and use the TOB argument ?

In the old games you HAVE to go to the merchants all the time, just to buy arrows and to sell things because your inventory is limited.
In BG3 you never have to except to buy a better armor or a better weapon once or twice.

How could it be a problem to wait for a shop to open in a game where shop is something you just don't really need and/or in which you can easily wait.
Was that a complaint in games like Kingdom Come Deliverance or the Witcher 3 ? I don't think so... and it also wasn't only cosmetic...

As for the witcher 3, I don't even remember if it was really a cosmetic. Time probably didn't matter in general there. What did it matter if you could change your time freely at any time.
Kingdom Come is a slightly different story, the game was primarily realism (to exaggeration) for which it was also heavily criticized.

I never heard anyone complaning about merchants that are closed at night which is the only argument brought here against D/N cycle.

It was even something a lot of players liked in KCD because you could stealth and picking locks to enter their shop and stole them.
I could compare with the "very interreting" stealing merchants mechanic in BG3... but I won't wink
Originally Posted by Rhobar121
As for the witcher 3, I don't even remember if it was really a cosmetic. Time probably didn't matter in general there. What did it matter if you could change your time freely at any time.
I dont think so ...
There was many monsters you could meet only in night time, some quests required specific hour, there was potions and stuff for dealing with low light etc.
I found a screenshot showing that Throne of Bhaal did have day & night ... here is Saradush:

[Linked Image from lparchive.org]

you can see the little time pendulum in the lower left corner, with the night moon waning and the sun coming up soon.
Originally Posted by Argyle
Huh? Saradush had day & night cycles, you can even see it on YouTube videos. Night enables many unique things ... infravision, enhanced stealth, Ring of Shooting Stars, will-o-wisps, glowing potion bottles, peeping frogs, ladies/gentlemen of the evening, shadows, etc. Back to the original topic, Baldur's Gate is really two different cities, one under the sun and one under the stars. I do hope we get to see both!

lol
IIRC, extended cycles and weather are flags you enable/disable in the area file processed by the Infinity Engine used in the Baldur's Gate games. I think people just get confused because there are a few areas with a preset time (when the scenario dictates such a behaviour).
The very same engine in the same game instance runs both Shadows of Amn and Throne of Bhaal, obviously it can deliver day/night cycles (and there are day night cycles in ToB).

This being said, imho, in BG3 we should first get a proper, accessible clock and calendar in the game before envisionning the implementation of day/night cycles.
The absence of a visible time reference is a flaw in any game claiming to be a RPG.

Back to the OP, yes playing in a 3D Baldur's Gate city is an old dream of mine, the primary drive to buy this game.
Originally Posted by Blacas
This being said, imho, in BG3 we should first get a proper, accessible clock and calendar in the game before envisionning the implementation of day/night cycles.
The absence of a visible time reference is a flaw in any game claiming to be a RPG.
Well, the two things are strictly correlated and the lack of the latter is most likely one of the very causes we are missing the former.

The game doesn't mark the passing of time clearly because that would force it to acknowledge that currently everything that is shown to us is frozen in a single moment of the day.
Then again they could AT LEAST keep count of the number of long rests we do and mark each one as a full day passed.

Also, to this day I'm still not sure if when characters complain that "they are tired and need to rest" there's any actual effect on their capabilities. In my experience it doesn't seem to be the case (otherwise I would have played half of the current build with an unknown handicap, I guess?) but it's hard to tell if they are hiding some numbers.
yes,
and perhaps also because their core engine (warning: it's highly speculative) does not require an internal core clock.
Turn Based + countdown timers + flags may be seen as a sufficient way to get the job done.
The reason I am mentionning this off-topic point is that this would explain the quite chaotic way the characters (or your multiplayer friends) enter the combat mode, especially if a dialog is involved. The transition between the game modes seems to be managed with spatial parameters, no timing consideration. Depending on the conditions, you may have a character able to run kilometers long before the first cycle is over or be locked.
More generally, how/when/where a clock/timer is used is not just a cosmetic matter.
What y'all didn't realize is that there is no day/night cycle because the DOS engine doesn't have it and it might be too much work to implement it.
"The engine doesn't have it" is a poor excuse, because no engine comes with the "day/night cycle button" and it's always a matter of implementing it.

It should also be none of our business to worry about how much work it can be to implement standard features in the genre, but that's another topic for another day.
Originally Posted by Tuco
"The engine doesn't have it" is a poor excuse, because no engine comes with the "day/night cycle button" and it's always a matter of implementing it.

It should also be none of our business to worry about how much work it can be to implement standard features in the genre, but that's another topic for another day.
I know it is. That's the point.
They didn't program the original DOS engine with this feature and now they might not want to do it because it's hard to do. Same with implementing reactions and readying actions. Either this or like anything else, it's their "vision" and these features would make the game worse.
Originally Posted by Danielbda
What y'all didn't realize is that there is no day/night cycle because the DOS engine doesn't have it and it might be too much work to implement it.

a proper day/night cycle that changes gradually? I accept that. What they could do is have a night map and a day map and switch between them based on the number of long rests, or time since a long rest, etc. there are ways of faking a day/night cycle that would still have the desired effect of making people feel like the world is more alive.
Originally Posted by Boblawblah
Originally Posted by Danielbda
What y'all didn't realize is that there is no day/night cycle because the DOS engine doesn't have it and it might be too much work to implement it.

a proper day/night cycle that changes gradually? I accept that. What they could do is have a night map and a day map and switch between them based on the number of long rests, or time since a long rest, etc. there are ways of faking a day/night cycle that would still have the desired effect of making people feel like the world is more alive.
Instead of faking it, why not implementing it during the process of making DOS or DOS2? Seriously, its the only CRPGs I can think of that lack day/night cycles, and this breaks immersion.
Originally Posted by Argyle
Huh? Saradush had day & night cycles, you can even see it on YouTube videos. Night enables many unique things ... infravision, enhanced stealth, Ring of Shooting Stars, will-o-wisps, glowing potion bottles, peeping frogs, ladies/gentlemen of the evening, shadows, etc. Back to the original topic, Baldur's Gate is really two different cities, one under the sun and one under the stars. I do hope we get to see both!

Glad to see we have people who actually played BG2/ToB wink

<The absence of a visible time reference is a flaw in any game claiming to be a RPG>. Yup, hit the nail right on the head.
I can't deny that I would love to see a clock and a day night cycle in BG3. Having said that, no one here knows what the technical difficulties involved in doing something like that actually are.

The decision has already been made not to do it as it is. So not sure what we can accomplish at this point.

https://wccftech.com/baldurs-gate-3-pax-east-interview-listening-to-fan-feedback-adding-raytracing/
Based on that article, it sounds like the combination of multi-player and turn-based combat creates the problem for day/night timing. It sort of sounds like the same problem people had with Time Stop in multi-player.

I have no intention of ever using multi-player with BG III.

If we can't get the diurnal cycle, then I propose we see Baldur's Gate city only at night ... perhaps around the winter solstice time, when people decorate their windows and pine trees with tiny colored lights. Magical.
Originally Posted by Argyle
Based on that article, it sounds like the combination of multi-player and turn-based combat creates the problem for day/night timing. I
Yeah, and we go back in a circle to what what we were saying at the beginning of this very same thread, including that article that is the very same source we were talking about:

Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by Riandor
Yep... No Day and Night cycle is quite frankly a design choice I cannot get behind, even understanding the MP limitations that were part of the reason. A way should have been found as I just find a proper Day and night cycle adds a deeper layer of graphical immersion and allows you to play with the light sensitivity aspects of certain races.
it was a very simple limitation to work around in the end: "Freeze the clock for everyone when one of the players is in turn based mode. Make it march again when all the players are in real time".
I mean, the limitation that everyone needs to agree for a long rest (and that no one can be in combat) was already in place, anyway. So it's not like that was going to make a big difference.
Sure, the length of the day (or night) may extend a bit even for the player that was in "real time all the time". But so what?

Sometime I hear the designers at Larian saying things about "design challenges" that make me think of the proverbial "drowning in a glass of water".
Like when one of their lead gameplay designers explained on stream that "Sure, in pen & paper the player can choose to spend his battlemaster points (aka "superiority dice") only after he's sure a hit lands, but that wouldn't work in a videogame because it would break the flow of the action, so... tough luck for him".
Ehr...? What about doing so that you DON'T SPEND THE POINT if you miss the attack, without needing to "break", "pause" or "interrupt" anything?

EDIT - Incidentally that very same article already had one comment I made when it was published suggesting pretty much the same idea.
This also reminds me the whole emotional rollercoaster I went through since they announced D/N cycle wouldn't be a thing: anger and disbelief, slow transition to resignation and acceptance in the following months, occasional new bursts of anger and disappointment as I was playing through the EA and realizing what the lack of a D/N cycle would actually imply in terms of variety, mood, gameplay scenarios, etc.
The bullshit half-baked way camping and long rest currently work doesn't really help to sell the deal any better.
Don't want to start a new thread so will ask here.
Now that Larian have rights to do bg3, can they also do a bg2 remake? Like fully voiced, new quests, new characters, new areas, better enhanced graphics, and all?
Even if all above sounds wonderful it may not even beat the original, as it's a masterpiece all in it's own but.. possible yeah?
I think Beamdog still has the rights to BG II, although I do not know whether those rights are exclusive. Trent Oster was one of the BioWare founders, and it turns out he is also a decent voice actor now. Hmmm, wouldn't it be cool if Larian could get some additional voice acting from Dave Gaider? He used to work in hotel management prior to BioWare, so he might be able to do an excellent innkeeper voice in the city of Baldur's Gate ... at night.
I think Wizards of the Coast are still the ultimate owners of the Baldur's Gate rights and it's entirely at their discretion.
Also, despise being thrilled that Larian got BG3 at first, I'm not sure I would like to see them of all people remaking BG2 at this point.

It would pain me to even imagine a BG2 with a max party of four, the toilet chain control scheme and no day/night cycle whatsoever.
Originally Posted by GarippoSensei
Don't want to start a new thread so will ask here.
Now that Larian have rights to do bg3, can they also do a bg2 remake? Like fully voiced, new quests, new characters, new areas, better enhanced graphics, and all?
Even if all above sounds wonderful it may not even beat the original, as it's a masterpiece all in it's own but.. possible yeah?

Remaking BG2 with 2021 sensitivities and stay faithful to the original game? Impossible. All the things that made BG2 great; LIMITED slot base inventory(god I loved this...), TONS of spells/precasting complexities, slower game pace, lots of reading, etc...just would not work with current <I WANT IT ALL EASY AND CONVENIENT> gamers.
Oh and frack money grabbing remakes! Devs, please make original games.
Originally Posted by mr_planescapist
Originally Posted by GarippoSensei
Don't want to start a new thread so will ask here.
Now that Larian have rights to do bg3, can they also do a bg2 remake? Like fully voiced, new quests, new characters, new areas, better enhanced graphics, and all?
Even if all above sounds wonderful it may not even beat the original, as it's a masterpiece all in it's own but.. possible yeah?

Remaking BG2 with 2021 sensitivities and stay faithful to the original game? Impossible. All the things that made BG2 great; LIMITED slot base inventory(god I loved this...), TONS of spells/precasting complexities, slower game pace, lots of reading, etc...just would not work with current <I WANT IT ALL EASY AND CONVENIENT> gamers.
Oh and frack money grabbing remakes! Devs, please make original games.

It would make sense as long as it is a low-budget or at most medium-budget game. Then they could completely focus on opening the game in a relatively modern way.
A high budget is both a blessing and a curse for games. It supposedly enables the creation of a larger and richer game, at the same time it forces the creators to make many compromises so that the project not only pays for itself, but also earns money for another
When it comes to high-budget games, counting on fans of only a given type of games will in most cases end in a disaster.
Originally Posted by Tuco
"The engine doesn't have it" is a poor excuse, because no engine comes with the "day/night cycle button" and it's always a matter of implementing it.

It should also be none of our business to worry about how much work it can be to implement standard features in the genre, but that's another topic for another day.

Unreal has a day/night cycle tool called skybox.
Originally Posted by Rhobar121
It would make sense as long as it is a low-budget or at most medium-budget game. Then they could completely focus on opening the game in a relatively modern way.
A high budget is both a blessing and a curse for games. It supposedly enables the creation of a larger and richer game, at the same time it forces the creators to make many compromises so that the project not only pays for itself, but also earns money for another
When it comes to high-budget games, counting on fans of only a given type of games will in most cases end in a disaster.
It's hard to tell if this is even remotely true, since it's not like it's been attempted often.
"Hardcore" *** core design with mass market production value is something publishers almost never attempt under the assumption it's risky, rather that something that ACTUALLY proved itself unsuccessful on the market.


*** And here we could start a long debate about what the term even means in practical terms, by the way. Except... Let's NOT.
Originally Posted by Argyle
I found a screenshot showing that Throne of Bhaal did have day & night ... here is Saradush:

[Linked Image from lparchive.org]

you can see the little time pendulum in the lower left corner, with the night moon waning and the sun coming up soon.

The night time version of Saradush was scripted. It was only available after completing a certain quest. The completion of that quest allowed you to click on the night time version of the city (On the map it was Saradush with a crescent moon)

There was no Day/Night cycle in TOB, just a scripted version of Saradush at night where a specific plot event occurred.
so then it should be trivial for BG3 to do the same smile
Originally Posted by Boblawblah
so then it should be trivial for BG3 to do the same smile

Depending on the engine trivial can be challenging.
"There was no Day/Night cycle in TOB, just a scripted version of Saradush at night where a specific plot event occurred."

I am not sure what constitutes a "scripted event", but I just opened up the Throne of Bhaal game (PC version) and played ... I entered Saradush at clock Day 0, Hour 17. Then if I just stand there and do nothing, the clock continues to advance and it eventually becomes night. No trigger event needed, the clock just runs and the sun goes down. The Watcher's Keep has a running clock. The Oasis has a clock, and you can rest there and day/night will cycle with different light levels accordingly. I know this because I just did it with an old save. Same with the North Forest and the Forest of Mir areas ... all of them have normal day/night cycles and you can rest through them. I don't know, maybe there is a difference with console versions of the game, but day/night is definitely a feature in the PC version of ToB, and it's not just in Saradush, either.
Honestly, if they didn't want to program "Time" they could still set up a nighttime variant of the map by having us toggle the end day thing and then traveling out into the area. Creatures could move to a different position for night and have different nightime actions like sometimes sleeping and sometimes night will be more guarded, and perhaps different quests and characters will appear or be progressed. While this suggestion might be janky, it would just amount to a day and night toggle that adds some more depth to the game.
Originally Posted by CJMPinger
Honestly, if they didn't want to program "Time" they could still set up a nighttime variant of the map by having us toggle the end day thing and then traveling out into the area. Creatures could move to a different position for night and have different nightime actions like sometimes sleeping and sometimes night will be more guarded, and perhaps different quests and characters will appear or be progressed. While this suggestion might be janky, it would just amount to a day and night toggle that adds some more depth to the game.

For all we know (and I suspect it will happen), there will be instanced night missions etc in BG. Considering your dealing with vampires. But a full day/night cycle, I just don't think will be in the cards. Or maybe Larian will pop it as a surprise, but I doubt it.
Originally Posted by CJMPinger
Honestly, if they didn't want to program "Time" they could still set up a nighttime variant of the map by having us toggle the end day thing and then traveling out into the area. Creatures could move to a different position for night and have different nightime actions like sometimes sleeping and sometimes night will be more guarded, and perhaps different quests and characters will appear or be progressed. While this suggestion might be janky, it would just amount to a day and night toggle that adds some more depth to the game.
I really dislike their rationale for it too.
Among the examples they used I remeber that they'd need to add bedroom for all characters, give them a daily schedule and all that jazz.
And frankly THAT would cost a lot, but it would also be absolute overkill that no one is asking them to do.

The assumption that "You either go ALL THE WAY IN or you shouldn't even bother" is a stupid one. Most of us would gladly accept the compromises necessary (i.e. "daily" NPC that simply disappear at night -and the other way around- and similar shit).
There are plenty of advantages and improvements enabled even by a more conventional and modest implementation of the feature. Like the old BG 1 and 2 already proved in several circumstances and like plenty of other games did after them.
Well, actually even before, since I think it's Ultima that introduced it first.

And what's more relevant, there are consequences of not having a D/N cycle that go way beyond cosmetic changes or the chances to to add time-specific encounter design.
The whole fact that the game doesn't have a proper tiredness mechanic and that their rest system is such a half-baked and yet convoluted mess are arguably all indirect consequences of having a game that doesn't consistently account for time passing and doesn't differentiate about context.

This is why Owlcat can get away with a "cheap" solution with characters camping anywhere (at a risk) and having banters with each other while Larian has an instanced magical place that somehow is the same wherever you are traveling (even the Underdark!), improves by itself over time (who's building these fucking tents, anyway?) and where ALL the character interactions take place.

And somehow the first solution manages to comes off as incomparably more effective, consistent and immersive than the second, despise most likely costing a fraction.
Originally Posted by CJMPinger
Honestly, if they didn't want to program "Time" they could still set up a nighttime variant of the map by having us toggle the end day thing and then traveling out into the area. Creatures could move to a different position for night and have different nightime actions like sometimes sleeping and sometimes night will be more guarded, and perhaps different quests and characters will appear or be progressed. While this suggestion might be janky, it would just amount to a day and night toggle that adds some more depth to the game.
That sounds surprisingly good!
It sounds surprisingly standard, more than anything.
I could go back to the 80s listing games that had something similar.

It's just Larian that seems to think you'd need to be at the cutting edge of tech to implement it.
Originally Posted by Tuco
It sounds surprisingly standard, more than anything.
I could go back to the 80s listing games that had something similar.

It's just Larian that seems to think you'd need to be at the cutting edge of tech to implement it.

I may be wrong but I don't believe they said it was a technology issue but a complexity issue. As in- adding day/night adds a layer of complexity to the already multiple layers of complexity they have in place. They would need to then add schedules to people's behavior, and they didn't want to do that.

Personally I would love to see it, even if they had to hire an extra 10-15 people to handle the workload and even if it delayed the game by 6 months or more. I would rather have it than not, but I don't know what the actual resource levels are.

It just feels really important to have a feeling that time is moving and to see Baldur's gate at night.
I mean, I'm talking specifically about what they said just two posts before.

That said, I don't even care about what would be the excuse, exactly. It has been done, it could be done and it should be their task to figure out how to do it more efficiently, not ours.
Personally? Aside for the fact that I'd gladly give up on other more... fanciful and situation features (coff coff... Origins) to get this, I'd be perfectly fine if they said "We are doing it, but we are delaying the game six months only for this".
Fine by me. Take your time and do it right.
Are they really not going to do day and night for the actual city of BG?

Can you please show me where larian have said this?

We need night time graphics to make rogue guilds and stealing ect more realistic 100%!!!
Originally Posted by teclis23
Are they really not going to do day and night for the actual city of BG?

Can you please show me where larian have said this?

We need night time graphics to make rogue guilds and stealing ect more realistic 100%!!!
They said they are not going to do it at all. Anywhere in the game.

They never specified the limits of where that would apply.
Having certain quests or maps at night would be a half-arsed implementation IMO and only serve to reinforce the sense of a static world where we can only experience things at certain/fixed times of the day.

I've noted in these forums some have suggested that scripting the routines for NPCs would be problematic...and I ask out of ignorance but why is this a problem with BG3 but not a problem in Pillars of Eternity for example, where NPCs went to sleep? Something to do with the game engines...or what?
Originally Posted by Etruscan
Having certain quests or maps at night would be a half-arsed implementation IMO and only serve to reinforce the sense of a static world where we can only experience things at certain/fixed times of the day.

I've noted in these forums some have suggested that scripting the routines for NPCs would be problematic...and I ask out of ignorance but why is this a problem with BG3 but not a problem in Pillars of Eternity for example, where NPCs went to sleep? Something to do with the game engines...or what?

Larian said it so parrots repeated.

It never has been a problem in any games from the first D/N cycle and games have found / can find new ways to implement consistent D/N cycle.

If only that goal had been reached in DoS campaign...
They had (quote) "reworked 60% of their engine" for BG3 but it was unnecessary to implement time and D/N cycle because you know... Their games are amazing so why would they bother to change/improve what's not necessary ? (Combat balance, chain, D/N, origin characters, UI,...)
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
If only that goal had been reached in DoS campaign...
I'm not sure if you were being sarcastic or not, but the goal WAS reached.
Larian just declared at a later date that the feature was more work than expected and scrapped it.

But fine, they were a small financially troubled studio with a crowdfunded pet project. I accepted that.
Then the game turned out to be a massive success, a sequel came with a far bigger budget... And D/N cycle was still nowhere to be seen, because it didn't fit their vision and their style or something. Fine.

Now it's the time of BG3, which is shaping up to be a colossal game with a gigantic budget by "isometric/top down RPG" standards. Nah, Larian still thinks it's too much to ask and that "You aren't going all in, you better not even bother with it at all" which is an incredibly bad take, proven wrong by DOZENS of titles in the genre that did just fine with a compromise, a middle ground. And they were better games for it.
Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
If only that goal had been reached in DoS campaign...
I'm not sure if you were being sarcastic or not, but the goal WAS reached.
Larian just declared at a later date that the feature was more work than expected and scrapped it.

I wasn't sarcastic, I didn't know that.

What a shame, really.
Aside from the gameplay issues, there is also an emotional and aesthetic result of having day/night cycles. My most memorable moment from Neverwinter Nights II was walking up the trail to the HighCliff ruins while watching the moon cross the starry sky and reflect from the ripples in the water below. I literally stopped playing just to stand and watch that scenery play out for a few minutes. Ahhh!

Then the sun came up and it was time to put some zombies back in the ground.
Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
If only that goal had been reached in DoS campaign...
I'm not sure if you were being sarcastic or not, but the goal WAS reached.
Larian just declared at a later date that the feature was more work than expected and scrapped it.

But fine, they were a small financially troubled studio with a crowdfunded pet project. I accepted that.
Then the game turned out to be a massive success, a sequel came with a far bigger budget... And D/N cycle was still nowhere to be seen, because it didn't fit their vision and their style or something. Fine.

Now it's the time of BG3, which is shaping up to be a colossal game with a gigantic budget by "isometric/top down RPG" standards. Nah, Larian still thinks it's too much to ask and that "You aren't going all in, you better not even bother with it at all" which is an incredibly bad take, proven wrong by DOZENS of titles in the genre that did just fine with a compromise, a middle ground. And they were better games for it.
Dear Jesus, is it this much work?
Solasta implemented D/N cycles a year into development with 17 people, whereas BG3 hasn't done (and apparently will not do so) after 4 years with 400 people.
Larian, please, you are coming off as lazy.
I think their biggest problem is how to do time in MP, which is the same engine as SP, but allows independent control of each player's time stream. If one player is exploring at, say, 5 real-world mins per game hour, while a second player decides to go into TB mode, where time essentially stops, occasionally advancing by 6 game seconds in a much greater amount of real-world time, then you are in a mess very quickly.

They could make SP and MP modes different at fairly significant development cost, but I don;t think they want to. They could also make TB apply to all players in MP whenever it applies to any one player, but I don't think they want to do that either.

If someone here that wants D/N can suggest a good mechanism for MP, then maybe Larian mat reconsider.
Originally Posted by etonbears
I think their biggest problem is how to do time in MP, which is the same engine as SP, but allows independent control of each player's time stream. If one player is exploring at, say, 5 real-world mins per game hour, while a second player decides to go into TB mode, where time essentially stops, occasionally advancing by 6 game seconds in a much greater amount of real-world time, then you are in a mess very quickly.

They could make SP and MP modes different at fairly significant development cost, but I don;t think they want to. They could also make TB apply to all players in MP whenever it applies to any one player, but I don't think they want to do that either.

If someone here that wants D/N can suggest a good mechanism for MP, then maybe Larian mat reconsider.
Whilst I don't know the codding challenges related to the issue, I have to add that Neverwinter Nights did MP coupled with D/N cycles 20 years ago and BGEE adapted the original code to work with MP, so it is definitely possible to code it.
Originally Posted by etonbears
I think their biggest problem is how to do time in MP, which is the same engine as SP, but allows independent control of each player's time stream. If one player is exploring at, say, 5 real-world mins per game hour, while a second player decides to go into TB mode, where time essentially stops, occasionally advancing by 6 game seconds in a much greater amount of real-world time, then you are in a mess very quickly.

They could make SP and MP modes different at fairly significant development cost, but I don;t think they want to. They could also make TB apply to all players in MP whenever it applies to any one player, but I don't think they want to do that either.

If someone here that wants D/N can suggest a good mechanism for MP, then maybe Larian mat reconsider.
Addressed in the very first page of the thread (and several times before in the past):

Originally Posted by Tuco
it was a very simple limitation to work around in the end: "Freeze the clock for everyone when one of the players is in turn based mode. Make it march again when all the players are in real time".
I mean, the limitation that everyone needs to agree for a long rest (and that no one can be in combat) was already in place, anyway. So it's not like that was going to make a big difference.
Sure, the length of the day (or night) may extend a bit even for the player that was in "real time all the time". But so what?
Incidentally someone just resurrected one of my old threads about this same topic in the "Suggestion and Feedback" subforum and made a fairly good summary of how this could be approached to several degree of commitment.
Here's a quote of his post, not sure if he will bother coming posting here himself:


Originally Posted by Gustavo R
I'm not a game designer, but I believe this can be solved with degrees of complexity, implementing one step at a time.

Step 1 - Only Cosmetic Change: Place two instances, day and night, in the map, adjusting the position of the light for each one. Everything else remains the same.

Step 2 - The Basic: Set two positions for each NPC – one for the day (a) and one for the night (b). You can talk to them normally. Applies lighting-based stealth modifiers, with the ability to extinguish torches for better modifiers.

Step 3 - Extra Dialogues: NPCs approached at night, if they are sleeping, will speak a line of dialogue complaining, but after that, they speak normally with the characters. Sellers may refuse to sell items before dawn. Open doors at day can be closed at night.

Step 4 - Dangers of the Night: Some enemies and new creatures appear during the night (like worgs or skeletons).

Step 5 - Four Stages: Adds four stages of the day. Morning (a), Afternoon (b), Evening (c), and Night (d). NPCs can now have four different positions instead of just two (day and night).

Step 6 - Gradual Time Passage: Now just let time pass naturally, from one stage to another. NPCs will walk to their next location when the switch happening.

Extra: Multiplayer
- When a player asks for time to pass (by pressing the short rest button) the other players must agree. Simple.
Originally Posted by Danielbda
Originally Posted by etonbears
I think their biggest problem is how to do time in MP, which is the same engine as SP, but allows independent control of each player's time stream. If one player is exploring at, say, 5 real-world mins per game hour, while a second player decides to go into TB mode, where time essentially stops, occasionally advancing by 6 game seconds in a much greater amount of real-world time, then you are in a mess very quickly.

They could make SP and MP modes different at fairly significant development cost, but I don;t think they want to. They could also make TB apply to all players in MP whenever it applies to any one player, but I don't think they want to do that either.

If someone here that wants D/N can suggest a good mechanism for MP, then maybe Larian mat reconsider.
Whilst I don't know the codding challenges related to the issue, I have to add that Neverwinter Nights did MP coupled with D/N cycles 20 years ago and BGEE adapted the original code to work with MP, so it is definitely possible to code it.

Yes, implementing D/N cycles isn't particularly complex, and has been done many times before. It's somewhat gone out of fashion with some developers, but I've not read anywhere what their reasoning is.

It might be due to player pressure, since some players dislike dealing with people moving ( having to search for them ) or finding shops closed when they want to use them etc.

It's also possible that there are technical reasons; for example, some high quality lighting solutions in games pre-calculate illumination for scenes, which means there cannot be dynamic, time-based global illumination. You could still do D/N flip similar to Athkatla in BG2, by simply pre-calculating 2 lighting solutions.

There would definitely be a cost attached to adding a D/N cycle, but only Larian know exactly what that would be, and they are not saying.
Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by etonbears
I think their biggest problem is how to do time in MP, which is the same engine as SP, but allows independent control of each player's time stream. If one player is exploring at, say, 5 real-world mins per game hour, while a second player decides to go into TB mode, where time essentially stops, occasionally advancing by 6 game seconds in a much greater amount of real-world time, then you are in a mess very quickly.

They could make SP and MP modes different at fairly significant development cost, but I don;t think they want to. They could also make TB apply to all players in MP whenever it applies to any one player, but I don't think they want to do that either.

If someone here that wants D/N can suggest a good mechanism for MP, then maybe Larian mat reconsider.
Addressed in the very first page of the thread (and several times before in the past):

Originally Posted by Tuco
it was a very simple limitation to work around in the end: "Freeze the clock for everyone when one of the players is in turn based mode. Make it march again when all the players are in real time".
I mean, the limitation that everyone needs to agree for a long rest (and that no one can be in combat) was already in place, anyway. So it's not like that was going to make a big difference.
Sure, the length of the day (or night) may extend a bit even for the player that was in "real time all the time". But so what?

Sure, Tuco, but that just sounds like making TB apply to all players when one player enters TB, which I noted was an option, but that I don't think Larian want to do that.

I don't play MP myself, so I don't know what is/isn't cool in MP; but I got the impression from others that the way DOS2 implemented MP ( independent player time-streams ) was a major point of satisfaction for the game, which Larian are therefore reluctant to change.

I suppose a partial solution that doesn't completely destroy their existing co-op flexibility might be to have a D/N flip similar to BG2, where players are only "frozen" when they pesonally have run out of day or night, and must wait for the others to catch up with their time stream. It wouldn't be problem-free, but might be less restrictive than every player entering TB whenever one player does.
Originally Posted by etonbears
Sure, Tuco, but that just sounds like making TB apply to all players when one player enters TB

Nah? It's the exact contrary of it. I said that when a player enters turn-based mode you stop the CLOCK in the background, the one deciding how long a day (or night) is supposed to last. I never said you stop the real-time flow for everyone.

Here's a practical example since for some reason you seem to be confused about it:

Let's say a day is supposed to last two hours in real time and a night other two hours.

- One player enters-turn based mode five minutes before dawn, when the night was already at 1 hour and 55 minutes of its "natural course".
- The clock for that player will obviously stop (otherwise he would experience transitions betweeen night and day while frozen in turn-based combat).
- The other players stay in real-time (at least until they get into combat as well)...
- ..but the "hidden clock" of the game stops its timer for the other players as well, keeping everything in sync.
- five minutes later the first player will go out of combat.
- five more minutes later the night will end. For the first player it would have lasted 2 hours, plus five minutes of turn based combat.
- for the other players, the night will have lasted 2 and 5 minutes of real time.
- There's a slight discrepance in the fact that for the other(s) player(s) the night "lasted few minutes of real-time more", but then again... So fucking what?
Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by etonbears
Sure, Tuco, but that just sounds like making TB apply to all players when one player enters TB
Nah? It's the exact contrary of it. I said that when a player enters turn-based mode you stop the CLOCK in the background, the one deciding how long a day (or night) is supposed to last. I never said you stop the real-time flow for everyone.

Oh, right, I misunderstood. Yes, that sounds like it would work without really affecting the MP flexibility. So that's one less reason for not adding D/N.

So that just leaves player popularity and engine limitations as excuses smile
I'm not sure if player popularity would work in their favor as an argument.
I mean, imagine if they made a survey asking if people wanted it or not. How would you expect it to go, in all honesty?
I think you'd get something along the lines of 50-40-10 Yes/Don't Care/No
it would be more like "Do you want more SEXY SEXY and MEMES!! or a day/night cycle (BORING)"

and yes, people would choose SEXY SEXY smile
Originally Posted by qwerrecd42
I think you'd get something along the lines of 50-40-10 Yes/Don't Care/No

My estimate would be 30-60-10. I mean I would like to see a day/night cycle, but don't care either way. Considering the small amount of games that actually have it, most would not miss it, and see it as an "oh cool" kind of thing.
I think that unless they would put it as a loaded question in some form it would probably be closer to 75-10-15, with a more detailed breakdown that would look something like:

- YES for several degree of "Fuck yes" and "Sounds cool".
- DON'T CARE mostly consisting of "I don't really understand what that means. LOL dunno, who cares then".
- And most of the NO being a mix of "I was traumatized by the dark closet in my room as a kid so I'm afraid of the night" (vast minority) and a bunch of tossers sticking to the "Nu-uh" only because "Larian said it would be difficult for them and I don't want them to overwork". Basically they already made fools of themselves in the past and so they would feel invested in sticking to the same narrative for the sake of consistency.


Jokes aside, it would be somewhat unfair since it's the type of feature that panders a lot even to casuals and doesn't demand any understanding of the implications to sound desirable.

A more honest and engaging question would be if Larian asked "Would you give up on [EXTRA FEATURE X] to get a a cycle of night and day?". At that point it would depend a lot on what they offered as counterpoint.
Originally Posted by Tuco
I think that *unless they would put it as a loaded question* in some form it would probably be closer to 75-10-15

Based on the tones of their community updates I wouldn't put much hope in this theoretical poll NOT being loaded as heck :P
Originally Posted by Tuco
I'm not sure if player popularity would work in their favor as an argument.
I mean, imagine if they made a survey asking if people wanted it or not. How would you expect it to go, in all honesty?

In all honesty, I don't have a clue. If you asked the question flat "shall we add feature X", you will usually get a positive response. If you highlight tradeoffs, then maybe not.

Larian and Bioware ( and probably others ) seem to use exclusively event-driven games design, presumably in order to improve control over the overall narrative ( if you consider "linear story-driven" and "open-world" to be the extremes of narrative control ). I don't know whether any developer has publicly explained this choice ( or the data used to make the choice ), so my assumption has always been that financial return is the main driver.

Personally I prefer realistic open worlds with plausible behaviour and character interactions, but as a software engineer myself, I know that the ability to realise this with current techniques and hardware is limited. It's much easier to develop improved visuals to make things look shiny than to construct a better conversation algorithm, or a plausible information diffusion mechanism; so better visuals get the attention.
The last poll on reddit about D/N was 65% PRO vs 35% CON.
https://www.reddit.com/r/BaldursGat..._medium=android_app&utm_source=share

Can't really understand why anyone would say "no" to a D/N cycle and weather effects.
I guess those 35% are 30% that just don't care and 5% that say no for the sake of it.
It's the shitty subreddit and the very first post in the thread is someone rushing to tell anyone that "the devs don't want to do it".
And these people would bend over backward to please Larian no matter what. They are exactly the ones I was referring about in my last reply here.

But be assured that if Swen Vincke went on record saying "We decided we actually want this feature because you'd need to be a completely idiot to dislike it" two hours later they'd be patting each other on the back for not being idiots and totally wanting it.

The only reason that the right option even got the majority is because it's simply too appealing compared to the alternative, despise their bias.
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
The last poll on reddit about D/N was 65% PRO vs 35% CON.
https://www.reddit.com/r/BaldursGat..._medium=android_app&utm_source=share

Can't really understand why anyone would say "no" to a D/N cycle and weather effects.
I guess those 35% are 30% that just don't care and 5% that say no for the sake of it.

I think people are saying no maybe because dos2 didnt have it

but yeah we need D/N cycles
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
The last poll on reddit about D/N was 65% PRO vs 35% CON.
https://www.reddit.com/r/BaldursGat..._medium=android_app&utm_source=share

Can't really understand why anyone would say "no" to a D/N cycle and weather effects.
I guess those 35% are 30% that just don't care and 5% that say no for the sake of it.

Weather effects generally don't inhibit play ( i.e. they are just visual ), so it is difficult to see why anyone would actively dislike that unless they just want to always see happy, sunny vistas all the time ( for mental health reasons, perhaps ).

D/N cycle isn't always so obviously a good thing for everyone:
- If the cycle brings no obvious game interest ( i.e. it's just visual ), it can be annoying to not be able to see properly at night.
- If there are too many activities tied to time of day or night it can be annoying even when there is a wait/sleep feature available.
- If the cycle time is too fast or slow, it can be annoying if it detracts from immersion.
- It can be annoying for players that just want a static environment ( for whatever reason ).

All recent Bethesda single-player games have D/N cycles, whereas all recent Bioware single-player games do not. Most people probably play them without often thinking much about the D/N aspect, because it is not particularly important to the design philosophy of either set of games. But, a badly thought-out and badly implemented D/N cycle is probably worse for some people than not having the cycle at all.

Personally, I do prefer to be reminded that time is passing in the game world in some way, and I think BG3 will be considered a lesser game if there is no mechanism to achieve that.
There's also the fact that day/night alternation and the general notion of passing time have always played a meaningful role in D&D.
Not just because you can meet different creatures at night, but even more specifically in terms of resource management and so on.

I mean, there's a reason if "short and long rest" are even two distinct options in the first place.
Originally Posted by teclis23
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
The last poll on reddit about D/N was 65% PRO vs 35% CON.
https://www.reddit.com/r/BaldursGat..._medium=android_app&utm_source=share

Can't really understand why anyone would say "no" to a D/N cycle and weather effects.
I guess those 35% are 30% that just don't care and 5% that say no for the sake of it.

I think people are saying no maybe because dos2 didnt have it

but yeah we need D/N cycles
When I remind people on that subreddit that DOS2 is not a D&D game I get downvoted.
Originally Posted by Danielbda
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When I remind people on that subreddit that DOS2 is not a D&D game I get downvoted.
Yep. That sounds like the subreddit I know.
Originally Posted by etonbears
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
The last poll on reddit about D/N was 65% PRO vs 35% CON.
https://www.reddit.com/r/BaldursGat..._medium=android_app&utm_source=share

Can't really understand why anyone would say "no" to a D/N cycle and weather effects.
I guess those 35% are 30% that just don't care and 5% that say no for the sake of it.

Weather effects generally don't inhibit play ( i.e. they are just visual ), so it is difficult to see why anyone would actively dislike that unless they just want to always see happy, sunny vistas all the time ( for mental health reasons, perhaps ).

Way back in the olden days, I turned off weather because it adversely affected the way my 3/486 computers, you know, those PCs that had less HDD space than most modern rigs have RAM, ran the games that had it. It eventually became force of habit, even when it didn't affect my PC's performance.

Quote
D/N cycle isn't always so obviously a good thing for everyone:
- If the cycle brings no obvious game interest ( i.e. it's just visual ), it can be annoying to not be able to see properly at night.
- If there are too many activities tied to time of day or night it can be annoying even when there is a wait/sleep feature available.
- If the cycle time is too fast or slow, it can be annoying if it detracts from immersion.
- It can be annoying for players that just want a static environment ( for whatever reason ).

All recent Bethesda single-player games have D/N cycles, whereas all recent Bioware single-player games do not. Most people probably play them without often thinking much about the D/N aspect, because it is not particularly important to the design philosophy of either set of games. But, a badly thought-out and badly implemented D/N cycle is probably worse for some people than not having the cycle at all.

Personally, I do prefer to be reminded that time is passing in the game world in some way, and I think BG3 will be considered a lesser game if there is no mechanism to achieve that.

DA 2 let you toggle D/N on the map, while you were quick traveling between locations, with different things happening in each time frame. I've read the argument that it wouldn't matter if the NPCs didn't have appropriate schedules, but I'm going to call foul on that argument, because I've actually seen complaints about the lack of these schedules, and how it makes the game feel "lifeless". W/out a schedule, day or night, that merchant is going to be standing in the same spot, no matter when the player stops by. Some people find that jolting too. I don't care either way, it's not going to destroy my enjoyment of the game if it has it, or not.
The overwhelming majority of games going for a day/night cycle actually does it without offering any complex variation on NPC scheduling. The two previous BG included.
And most people were more than reasonably satisfied with that compromise over the idea of giving up to the feature entirely.
This is especially true in games where the content is designed rather than "systemic" (i.e. procedural generation and so on).

If anything one would be hard pressed to point the notable exceptions, like Ultima VII, Gothic 1 and 2, etc.

So "Calling foul" doesn't change facts, really.
Originally Posted by Tuco
If anything one would be hard pressed to point the notable exceptions, like Ultima VII, Gothic 1 and 2, etc.

As I recall Ultima V - Warriors of Destiny, which was published in 1988 had the first day night cycles with NPC schedules - that I can recall. But I agree Ultima VII was the absolute best game at the time.

Sadly EA purchased Origin Systems and the technology was lost after that, and we have not seen its like since. Probably in a vault somewhere in the depths of EA. /s
Originally Posted by Tuco
The overwhelming majority of games going for a day/night cycle actually does it without offering any complex variation on NPC scheduling. The two previous BG included.
And most people were more than reasonably satisfied with that compromise over the idea of giving up to the feature entirely.
This is especially true in games where the content is designed rather than "systemic" (i.e. procedural generation and so on).

If anything one would be hard pressed to point the notable exceptions, like Ultima VII, Gothic 1 and 2, etc.

So "Calling foul" doesn't change facts, really.

Gee, I read your comment, and before I even finished the first sentence I was thinking "What about Skyrim"... I then wondered "At what point were the players given an option about whether or not it existed". So I wasn't particularly hard pressed to come up with one, and I have never seen a poll from a developer asking "do you want D/N cycles w/out NPC schedules, or do we need to add them". It would be fun, I guess, to look back on these to see the results, so can you provide some links to official polls that you're apparently citing here?

So let's see the facts, instead of your statements? I'm not a fan of "it's on the internet, so it must be true".
Originally Posted by robertthebard
Originally Posted by Tuco
The overwhelming majority of games going for a day/night cycle actually does it without offering any complex variation on NPC scheduling. The two previous BG included.
And most people were more than reasonably satisfied with that compromise over the idea of giving up to the feature entirely.
This is especially true in games where the content is designed rather than "systemic" (i.e. procedural generation and so on).

If anything one would be hard pressed to point the notable exceptions, like Ultima VII, Gothic 1 and 2, etc.

So "Calling foul" doesn't change facts, really.

Gee, I read your comment, and before I even finished the first sentence I was thinking "What about Skyrim"... I then wondered "At what point were the players given an option about whether or not it existed". So I wasn't particularly hard pressed to come up with one, and I have never seen a poll from a developer asking "do you want D/N cycles w/out NPC schedules, or do we need to add them". It would be fun, I guess, to look back on these to see the results, so can you provide some links to official polls that you're apparently citing here?

So let's see the facts, instead of your statements? I'm not a fan of "it's on the internet, so it must be true".

I would assume the fact that 90% of open world games nowadays have a d/n cycle is enough to guess players at large prefer that to the alternative. And now that i think about it the only games lacking that are from Bioware, which i guess goes hand in hand with BG3 being more of a spiritual successor to Dragon Age than Baldur's Gate.
Originally Posted by robertthebard
Gee, I read your comment, and before I even finished the first sentence I was thinking "What about Skyrim"... I then wondered "At what point were the players given an option about whether or not it existed". So I wasn't particularly hard pressed to come up with one, and I have never seen a poll from a developer asking "do you want D/N cycles w/out NPC schedules, or do we need to add them". It would be fun, I guess, to look back on these to see the results, so can you provide some links to official polls that you're apparently citing here?

So let's see the facts, instead of your statements? I'm not a fan of "it's on the internet, so it must be true".
I have no idea of what you are even attempting to say, since hardly anything of your answer ACTUALLY relates to what I talked aboput.
I didn't cite any "poll", but a long track record of games in the genre doing things.
And "Would you prefer complex NPC schedule or NO NPC schedule?" would be a damn stupid loaded question to put to an audience, in general. You aren't really offering any trade off, just asking people "WOULD YOU LOVE TO GE MORE FOR THE SAME PRICE? YAAAY".

Also, aside for the fact that TES/SKyrim is one of these series that rely on systemic content (like their shitty procedurally generate quests) almost as much as designed one, finding ONE notable question isn't exactly enough to defuse an argument.
I said one would be hard pressed to list exceptions, not that they don't exist. Otherwise I wouldn't have mentioned two myself.
Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by robertthebard
Gee, I read your comment, and before I even finished the first sentence I was thinking "What about Skyrim"... I then wondered "At what point were the players given an option about whether or not it existed". So I wasn't particularly hard pressed to come up with one, and I have never seen a poll from a developer asking "do you want D/N cycles w/out NPC schedules, or do we need to add them". It would be fun, I guess, to look back on these to see the results, so can you provide some links to official polls that you're apparently citing here?

So let's see the facts, instead of your statements? I'm not a fan of "it's on the internet, so it must be true".
I have no idea of what you are even attempting to say, since hardly anything of your answer ACTUALLY relates to what I talked aboput.
I didn't cite any "poll", but a long track record of games in the genre doing things.
And "Would you prefer complex NPC schedule or NO NPC schedule?" would be a damn stupid loaded question to put to an audience, in general. You aren't really offering any trade off, just asking people "WOULD YOU LOVE TO GE MORE FOR THE SAME PRICE? YAAAY".

Also, aside for the fact that TES/SKyrim is one of these series that rely on systemic content (like their shitty procedurally generate quests) almost as much as designed one, finding ONE notable question isn't exactly enough to defuse an argument.
I said one would be hard pressed to list exceptions, not that they don't exist. Otherwise I wouldn't have mentioned two myself.

If you didn't cite any official polls, then you provided no "facts", but simply made some assertions, and then tried to claim they were facts. I asked you to provide the sources that make your assertions facts. You did state that calling foul on one of your assertions doesn't change the facts, so support the assertion, and lay out the facts, instead of just claiming they're facts, regardless, because you posted it on a forum. That's not how facts work.

Assertion 1: The overwhelming majority of games with a Day/Night cycle don't do it. Citations needed. You're claiming this is a fact, surely you can support it, yes?
Assertion 2: And most people were more than reasonably satisfied with that compromise over the idea of giving up to the feature entirely. Citations needed.
Assertion 3: So "Calling foul" doesn't change facts, really. This needs to be supported. Because looking at what you provided in 1 and 2, and what you're claiming in 3, nothing adds up to "facts", just "but this is what I think, so everyone needs to just agree with me".
Ok. Here comes a list.

Baldur’s Gate 1
Baldur’s Gate 2
Planescape Torment
Icewind Dale 1
Icewind Dale 2
Temple of Elemental Evil
Pillars of Eternity 1
Pillars of Eternity 2
Pathfinder Kingmaker
Pathfinder Wrath of the Righteous
Solasta
Fallout 1
Fallout 2
Atom
Might & Magic (entire series)
Wizardry (entire series)
Darklands
Realms of Arkania

I could probably go on for a while. I’m struggling more to remember series I played than to include them to this list, frankly.

Point is: they are all RPGs with a day/night rotation that for one reason or another didn’t really bother to include anything resembling complex NPC scheduling.
As I said the feature is more a rarity than a real expectation for most players.


Now if you want to make the questionable (if not downright spurious) claim that people were angry about it and protested that such a half-assed implementations could as well be removed from these games, you are going to be the one that will need to prove it mentioning a sizable sample of users saying so.

“Exceptional claims need exceptional evidence” and all that jazz.
Otherwise I’ll stand my original point that many ( most, really) would be fine with it.
Especially when the alternative offered would be no day/night cycle at all.
Originally Posted by Tuco
list of almost every notable crpg in existance that also have day night cycles

i see you didn't put Divinity Original Sin 2 on that list. hmph!
Originally Posted by robertthebard
If you didn't cite any official polls, then you provided no "facts", but simply made some assertions, and then tried to claim they were facts. I asked you to provide the sources that make your assertions facts. You did state that calling foul on one of your assertions doesn't change the facts, so support the assertion, and lay out the facts, instead of just claiming they're facts, regardless, because you posted it on a forum. That's not how facts work.

Assertion 1: The overwhelming majority of games with a Day/Night cycle don't do it. Citations needed. You're claiming this is a fact, surely you can support it, yes?
Assertion 2: And most people were more than reasonably satisfied with that compromise over the idea of giving up to the feature entirely. Citations needed.
Assertion 3: So "Calling foul" doesn't change facts, really. This needs to be supported. Because looking at what you provided in 1 and 2, and what you're claiming in 3, nothing adds up to "facts", just "but this is what I think, so everyone needs to just agree with me".

In 2008, it was a way to market games. But that faded after a while. It was no longer really the "hot thing" and a lot of people did not like it due to not being able to find things at night. But here is an article that goes over it I found just googling it:
https://www.vg247.com/2020/06/18/game-developers-still-turned-day-night-cycles/
It's not even a "way to market games" these days, it's pretty much a basic expectation of most open world titles.
Even (and maybe ESPECIALLY) outside of the RPG genre, in fact.

The article linked (which is not really saying a whole lot to begin with) basically reinforces their relevance outside of being "marketing tools", by the way.
Originally Posted by Tuco
Ok. Here comes a list.

Baldur’s Gate 1
Baldur’s Gate 2
Planescape Torment
Icewind Dale 1
Icewind Dale 2
Temple of Elemental Evil
Pillars of Eternity 1
Pillars of Eternity 2
Pathfinder Kingmaker
Pathfinder Wrath of the Righteous
Solasta
Fallout 1
Fallout 2
Atom
Might & Magic (entire series)
Wizardry (entire series)
Darklands
Realms of Arkania

I could probably go on for a while. I’m struggling more to remember series I played than to include them to this list, frankly.

Point is: they are all RPGs with a day/night rotation that for one reason or another didn’t really bother to include anything resembling complex NPC scheduling.
As I said the feature is more a rarity than a real expectation for most players.


Now if you want to make the questionable (if not downright spurious) claim that people were angry about it and protested that such a half-assed implementations could as well be removed from these games, you are going to be the one that will need to prove it mentioning a sizable sample of users saying so.

“Exceptional claims need exceptional evidence” and all that jazz.
Otherwise I’ll stand my original point that many ( most, really) would be fine with it.
Especially when the alternative offered would be no day/night cycle at all.

Adding to the list with older day/night cycles (of some form or the other) RPGS.

Arcanum (freeking A++ AMAZING GAME. Dynamic dialogue+story content, real-time, turn-based, and a FASTER VERSION OF TURN BASED. Super interesting world and system, incredible music) (2001)
Ultima 7 black gate/serpent isles (1992)
Nox (2000)
Betrayal at Krondor (1993) (The first 3D/dynamically?)
Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic (2003)
Vampire The Masquerade: Bloodlines (2004)
Gothic series (2001-)
Neverwinter Nights series (2002-)
Pool of Radiance Ruins of Myth Drannor (2001)
Ultima VII, Arcanum and Gothic HAD some NPC scheduling, though.
I was specifically listing games that didn’t.


Also, Bloodlines had no day/night cycle. It was set on a perpetual night (not canonically, but in practice).

I honestly can’t remember what Kotor and both the NWN did with day/night (if they had it at all) despise playing them years ago.
There's no day night cycle in KOTOR; there isn't a clock. It's just always bright or always dark depending on the planet. NWN has a clock and passing time but IIRC at least for NWN it's mostly cosmetic. Time of day doesn't provide context for any quests or events. I don't recall if shops are closed at night either. But I'd take a cosmetic day/night cycle and passing time over not having a sense of time at all any day. At the very least, I can do things like pulling out the torch walking edgy-looking on the streets, or eating food at 8pm and resting at 11pm and all that rp stuff and pretend that I have a normal eating/sleeping schedule cause in real life I barely have one.
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