Larian Studios
Posted By: Ungeweldig Subclasses? What is the plan? - 31/07/21 02:36 PM
Now I understand we probably cannot have every subclass but are we at least going to get maybe 1 or 2 more in the complete game? For example I would very much like to play an Archfey patron warlock. Do we know anything about the plans or are we all just left to speculate?
Posted By: Wormerine Re: Subclasses? What is the plan? - 31/07/21 03:09 PM
They are supposed to put as much from player handbook as they can. It doesn't necessarily mean all of them but more then is, but when 1.0 drops there should be much more of everything. Somethings might appear in EA for testing, but that's up to Larian, and we know little of their plans.
Posted By: Zyllos Re: Subclasses? What is the plan? - 31/07/21 04:13 PM
They have stated that EA will only have a subset of everything that is v1.0.

This means that there will be new experiences (this can include new subclasses) that was not part of EA that will just show up in v1.0.
Posted By: Terminator2020 Re: Subclasses? What is the plan? - 02/08/21 03:13 PM
Originally Posted by Zyllos
They have stated that EA will only have a subset of everything that is v1.0.

This means that there will be new experiences (this can include new subclasses) that was not part of EA that will just show up in v1.0.
Yes they could do that, but I do not even think there is 1% chance all PHB subclasses will be in BG3 v1.0.

I do hope we get more subclasses and Cleric Domain from PHB.

What is the plan? We dont know exactly. That said I believe with 90% sure that next patch 6 will have one new class from:
Barbarian, Bard, Monk, Paladin or Sorcerer.

I do hope we get new races and subclasses in to the game and maybe we can get in EA also new subclasses and Cleric Domains and races hopefully.

Actually those classes are so slow to release that if in the end 1-2 classes are missing from:
Barbarian, Bard, Monk, Paladin or Sorcerer.
then they will release them in 1.0 that part has been clear that all base classes should be in the game from PHB.
I do not see why would they could not get more races or subclasses from PHB, but all of them that I doubt.
Posted By: Abits Re: Subclasses? What is the plan? - 04/08/21 01:18 PM
Originally Posted by Terminator2020
Originally Posted by Zyllos
They have stated that EA will only have a subset of everything that is v1.0.

This means that there will be new experiences (this can include new subclasses) that was not part of EA that will just show up in v1.0.
Yes they could do that, but I do not even think there is 1% chance all PHB subclasses will be in BG3 v1.0.
They explicitly said all of them would. considering how rare it is for Larian to say things explicitly, I assume it's true, or at least the plan
Posted By: Blackheifer Re: Subclasses? What is the plan? - 04/08/21 01:54 PM
Originally Posted by Abits
Originally Posted by Terminator2020
Originally Posted by Zyllos
They have stated that EA will only have a subset of everything that is v1.0.

This means that there will be new experiences (this can include new subclasses) that was not part of EA that will just show up in v1.0.
Yes they could do that, but I do not even think there is 1% chance all PHB subclasses will be in BG3 v1.0.
They explicitly said all of them would. considering how rare it is for Larian to say things explicitly, I assume it's true, or at least the plan

And I think - on top of that - the many modders plan to add stuff that is part of Beyond, so people will see subclass options outside of the PHB. Possibly, races, spells and other things.

Larian also has the option to include additional Class/Race options as part of any new module DLC they release. I mean the game seems certainly set up to accommodate that anyway.

So chin up OP.
Posted By: Terminator2020 Re: Subclasses? What is the plan? - 04/08/21 09:53 PM
Originally Posted by Terminator2020
Originally Posted by CJMPinger
Sorry if I ever gave off the impression, though I have to thank Ragnarok providing that link even though the onus of evidence was upon me.

Ultimately, from what I have read and seen, even from supposed evidence to the contrary, it seems every PHB Sublcass will be included. To not do that just doesn't make any sense to me since that was one of the few things they actually did say would be included.

And to that evidence it says it pretty plainly, all classes, subclasses, and paths from the PHB. I believe all races which seems like something I may be wrong on but I find that unlikely since PHB races are a thousand times easier to implement than Gith.

Originally Posted by Terminator2020
Correct way to to ask would still be:
Will BG3 have ALL paths, subclasses etc.
What was confirmed? That all classes will have subclasses (so far every class has had minimum 2 subclasses and Cleric 3 domains).

That leaves unfortunately room for not include all subclasses at full release. However they have so far been consistent been in releasing at least 2 subclassess /class and I would asssume that is the minimum at least we get with all classes at full release. Could they increase the number of subclasses and Cleric domains? Yes, but I doubt all at full release.

Ultimately, and I don't mean this rudely but I apologize in advance, what you are saying here is wrong based on what you just quoted.
Unfortunately I do not agree with you. I would have asked that question differently.

Let say in theory he meant YES all subclasses will be available at release.

Well then go ahead and pleasantly surprise me.
Here is the thing. I do not believe Larian will hold to that promise specially if they make an effort to try release it at end of this year 2022.
I do not believe Larian will do that despite what they migth have said a long time ago.
Posted By: Terminator2020 Re: Subclasses? What is the plan? - 04/08/21 10:01 PM
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
[quote=Abits][quote=Terminator2020]
And I think - on top of that - the many modders plan to add stuff that is part of Beyond, so people will see subclass options outside of the PHB. Possibly, races, spells and other things.
.
Really? I have understand those modders so far have find the base classes something like that in BG3 code somewhere. They have not created those a totally new as classes from anywhere as code.

What Modders might do not is hard to know. Personally I would be happy if they could create a real adventure, but I have not seen anything like that. Why would I want to play some ULTI ALPHA class? I want to play classes if Larian get them out and not get any problems with odd issues in my games.
The modders have so far created nothing that I want. Do I need more exp with some mod? Absolutely not!

There is one graphics mods.... example:
Nightsong of Shar
that I might be very slightly intersted in, but I guess not enough... There is one dangerous issue with that mod. It does not have rating safe from Viruses most of those mods do not have that status at least not yet. I do not want to install some virus or spyware mod from a very untested new mod.

Your are really positive with what you think will happen future. I guess there are super positive people who believe Starcitizen MMO will come out soon in next 2 years or so full release.

Right now I care what migth come out for full official release 1.0 BG3. I dont want to think about what might happen very far future. Release is enough far future my guess BG3 is released October-December 2022 or during the long year 2023.
Posted By: avahZ Darkwood Re: Subclasses? What is the plan? - 04/08/21 11:45 PM
Problem with modding - you get dependent on a mod -lets say subclass- and the game updates but the modder has moved on, you are out of luck. Or you learn to mod yourself. Been on both sides. As a modder, it was fun the first few times, then it becomes a chore. You don’t want to let ppl down, but you can quickly hate modding. Yet as a gamer, you will find a mod you enjoy that gets abandoned. I started my modding with BG1 smile I remember my Specialty priest of Grummish, Blade Singer, Anti-Paladin etc.
Posted By: Blackheifer Re: Subclasses? What is the plan? - 05/08/21 12:34 AM
Originally Posted by Terminator2020
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
[quote=Abits][quote=Terminator2020]
And I think - on top of that - the many modders plan to add stuff that is part of Beyond, so people will see subclass options outside of the PHB. Possibly, races, spells and other things.
.
Really? I have understand those modders so far have find the base classes something like that in BG3 code somewhere. They have not created those a totally new as classes from anywhere as code.

What Modders might do not is hard to know. Personally I would be happy if they could create a real adventure, but I have not seen anything like that. Why would I want to play some ULTI ALPHA class? I want to play classes if Larian get them out and not get any problems with odd issues in my games.
The modders have so far created nothing that I want. Do I need more exp with some mod? Absolutely not!

There is one graphics mods.... example:
Nightsong of Shar
that I might be very slightly intersted in, but I guess not enough... There is one dangerous issue with that mod. It does not have rating safe from Viruses most of those mods do not have that status at least not yet. I do not want to install some virus or spyware mod from a very untested new mod.

Your are really positive with what you think will happen future. I guess there are super positive people who believe Starcitizen MMO will come out soon in next 2 years or so full release.

Right now I care what migth come out for full official release 1.0 BG3. I dont want to think about what might happen very far future. Release is enough far future my guess BG3 is released October-December 2022 or during the long year 2023.

Oh I wouldn't mess with Mods right now. I would wait until 1.0 and Larian says what they are focusing on next. If you mod the game and then they patch it then its a nightmare to clear mods sometimes.

Larian did emphatically state that we are getting ALL classes and subclasses in the PHB - multiple times and they have not backed off on that. So we either believe them or we don't.

As they have never been dishonest that I am aware of I choose to believe it until they say otherwise.

One more thing, there is a difference between what is in the full game and what is in the EA right now. There is a LOT of stuff we will not see until full game releases. They said that in the last PFH. That includes races and may include subclasses.
Posted By: Terminator2020 Re: Subclasses? What is the plan? - 05/08/21 08:24 AM
I believe that major classes so Barbarian, Bard, Monk, Paladin and Sorcerer will be included and races from PHB will be included in full release BG3 1.0 That said you can believe all lol subclasses from PHB will be included I laugh at that. Many people also believe Starzitizen MMO will be released within next 3 years lol. There also exist people who believe that the earth is not a globe. They believe earth is like a panncake. Well and I know that to there are modern people not some locals living in Amazon forest instead some modern people believe it is lies that the Earth is around that is a conspiracy lie. Could Larian include more subclasses? Yes I believe that possible, but all of them from PHB I doubt that. It is not that I am against subclasses. Of course Larian can suprise me and make me super happy if all subclasses included in BG3 1.0 full release.
Posted By: Danielbda Re: Subclasses? What is the plan? - 05/08/21 03:35 PM
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
As they have never been dishonest that I am aware of I choose to believe it until they say otherwise.
Don't you think they've been dishonest regarding 5E implementation? They said it couldn't be done, Solasta did it and it plays better.
Posted By: spacehamster95 Re: Subclasses? What is the plan? - 05/08/21 03:45 PM
Solasta didn't do that, though. They didnt have the legal backing for that. They implemented the basic playtest material and added their own homebrew. They also left out all the spells that are not strictly combat related, left out skills, et cetera.
Posted By: Danielbda Re: Subclasses? What is the plan? - 05/08/21 04:41 PM
Originally Posted by spacehamster95
Solasta didn't do that, though. They didnt have the legal backing for that. They implemented the basic playtest material and added their own homebrew. They also left out all the spells that are not strictly combat related, left out skills, et cetera.
It seems you are taking a shot at the Solasta devs for not having the money to buy the lincense to the complete set. By implementing 5E I mean the game playing as it would be played in tabletop, with action economy, actions, bonus actions and reactions properly implemented, classes having all their respective features etc.

Larian said that this couldn't be done. @Blackheifer said that they have been completely honest, which I disagree based on their stance regarding ruleset implementation.
Posted By: spacehamster95 Re: Subclasses? What is the plan? - 05/08/21 04:48 PM
I am not taking a shot at the developers of Solasta. I wish them the best for the great product they passionately created. I was just pointing out that you were calling someone wrong/dishonest while being utterly dishonest. Solasta did make a solid enough game, that is sometimes more conservative in its adaptation than BG3 in its current state (which is not even halfway in its EA, but that's another question). They did not adapted the 5E Players Handbook perfectly, which they dont owe the rights to, as a small indi studio. Their game is very limited in the terms of roleplay, which is fine, it is more of a dungeon crawl anyway and when it comes to the storytelling, they are not even playing in the same league with BG3, which is again fine and understandable.
Posted By: Danielbda Re: Subclasses? What is the plan? - 05/08/21 04:57 PM
Originally Posted by spacehamster95
I am not taking a shot at the developers of Solasta. I wish them the best for the great product they passionately created. I was just pointing out that you were calling someone wrong/dishonest while being utterly dishonest. Solasta did make a solid enough game, that is sometimes more conservative in its adaptation than BG3 in its current state (which is not even halfway in its EA, but that's another question). They did not adapted the 5E Players Handbook perfectly, which they dont owe the rights to, as a small indi studio. Their game is very limited in the terms of roleplay, which is fine, it is more of a dungeon crawl anyway and when it comes to the storytelling, they are not even playing in the same league with BG3, which is again fine and understandable.
Wow, in your post you simply curse me whilst avoiding the core argument that I put.
What you say is nonsensical given that Solasta's dev don't have the money to buy the complete license to 5E. They've implemented 5E in the way of gameplay, the video game plays as the tabletop would, this is what I mean though it should be obvious.
Larian stated that this transition from tabletop to video game could not be done, but Solasta did it. Since I refuse to believe they were not capable of the implementation, this seems like dishonesty to me, in that they didn't want to implement the ruleset faithfully, but that is not what was said.

Please, we don't need to carry on with this, you already cursed me for no reason.
Posted By: spacehamster95 Re: Subclasses? What is the plan? - 05/08/21 05:05 PM
Cursed you? How? Saying that you were being dishonest is not cursing.

But again, Larian didn't say it cannot be done, they said it is an adaptation: some things work in tabletop, some things work in video games. Which is just empirically true...
Posted By: Danielbda Re: Subclasses? What is the plan? - 05/08/21 05:34 PM
Originally Posted by spacehamster95
Cursed you? How? Saying that you were being dishonest is not cursing.

But again, Larian didn't say it cannot be done, they said it is an adaptation: some things work in tabletop, some things work in video games. Which is just empirically true...

"Walgrave: So basically we are trying to implement the D&D rules as much as we can to the letter. I think we succeeded in that for like 95%. There are a couple of things that we’re not doing because they don’t make sense in a computer game or there are things that we’re doing… you will have those features in the game, but they will differ a bit because it’s a computer game."

Solasta implemented those as they are in the PnP. They don't need to differ, and those things that don't make sense do in Solasta.
Posted By: mrfuji3 Re: Subclasses? What is the plan? - 05/08/21 05:38 PM
For the record, these are things that Swen has said:

From https://www.pcgamesn.com/baldurs-gate-3/larian-interview
Originally Posted by Swen
"BG3 is based on the fifth edition [of D&D]. We started by setting out the ruleset very meticulously, and then seeing what worked and what didn’t work – because it is a videogame, and D&D was made to play as a tabletop game. So for the things that didn’t work, we came up with solutions."

In a different link (https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2019...-turn-based-rpgs-and-dreams-coming-true/) Swen's words are reported as:
Originally Posted by Swen
"We started by taking the ruleset that's in the Player's Handbook. We ported it as faithfully as we could, then there were some number of things that we saw that doesn't work that well, and so we started looking for solutions to do that...."

Another: https://venturebeat.com/2019/06/06/...es-place-after-dds-descent-into-avernus/
Originally Posted by Swen
“We started with a very rigorous port of the ruleset. Then we started looking at what worked and what didn’t work. Because obviously, it’s a video game, so not everything translates very well. We modified where it made sense to start modifying,” Vincke said.

The argument is that obviously Larian/Swen didn't begin with a faithful (& "very meticulous" & "very rigorous") port of the rules, because there are many 5e mechanics not originally present in BG3 that do work well in Solasta. Eg., reactions and ready actions, as well as having dodge/disengage/hide be full actions. Plus more.
So either:
- Larian is lying, and they didn't begin with a faithful, meticulous, and rigorous implementation of 5e before changing things that didn't work.
- Larian has deluded themselves, believing they began with a faithful implementation when in reality they didn't.
- Larian did begin with a truly faithful adaptation, but is too set in its ways and thus removed/modified many 5e mechanics that successfully worked in Solasta, but that didn't match with Larian's idea of good.

This last point isn't bad by itself; BG3 and Solasta are different games so it isn't necessarily true that what's good in one game is good in the other. But EA began with cantrips creating surfaces, which Larian then realized was a bad idea. Did Larian really begin with 5e rules, change cantrips to creating surfaces, and then change them back after the overwhelmingly negative feedback? Or did Larian skip that first step and start with surface-creating cantrips because surfaces is what they know? And if Larian started with a meticulous implementation of 5e, where is the "dodge" action?
Posted By: Argyle Re: Subclasses? What is the plan? - 05/08/21 05:55 PM
The Earth is like a pancake?! Well from my point of view, I'd say it is more like a Belgian waffle. Mmmm.

A fey Warlock might be interesting. Who doesn't love their fairy Godmother? But I'd also like to see the new Genie version, which could be useful for the City of Brass quest area.
Posted By: daMichi Re: Subclasses? What is the plan? - 06/08/21 06:08 AM
Originally Posted by mrfuji3
For the record, these are things that Swen has said:

From https://www.pcgamesn.com/baldurs-gate-3/larian-interview
Originally Posted by Swen
"BG3 is based on the fifth edition [of D&D]. We started by setting out the ruleset very meticulously, and then seeing what worked and what didn’t work – because it is a videogame, and D&D was made to play as a tabletop game. So for the things that didn’t work, we came up with solutions."

In a different link (https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2019...-turn-based-rpgs-and-dreams-coming-true/) Swen's words are reported as:
Originally Posted by Swen
"We started by taking the ruleset that's in the Player's Handbook. We ported it as faithfully as we could, then there were some number of things that we saw that doesn't work that well, and so we started looking for solutions to do that...."

Another: https://venturebeat.com/2019/06/06/...es-place-after-dds-descent-into-avernus/
Originally Posted by Swen
“We started with a very rigorous port of the ruleset. Then we started looking at what worked and what didn’t work. Because obviously, it’s a video game, so not everything translates very well. We modified where it made sense to start modifying,” Vincke said.

The argument is that obviously Larian/Swen didn't begin with a faithful (& "very meticulous" & "very rigorous") port of the rules, because there are many 5e mechanics not originally present in BG3 that do work well in Solasta. Eg., reactions and ready actions, as well as having dodge/disengage/hide be full actions. Plus more.
So either:
- Larian is lying, and they didn't begin with a faithful, meticulous, and rigorous implementation of 5e before changing things that didn't work.
- Larian has deluded themselves, believing they began with a faithful implementation when in reality they didn't.
- Larian did begin with a truly faithful adaptation, but is too set in its ways and thus removed/modified many 5e mechanics that successfully worked in Solasta, but that didn't match with Larian's idea of good.

This last point isn't bad by itself; BG3 and Solasta are different games so it isn't necessarily true that what's good in one game is good in the other. But EA began with cantrips creating surfaces, which Larian then realized was a bad idea. Did Larian really begin with 5e rules, change cantrips to creating surfaces, and then change them back after the overwhelmingly negative feedback? Or did Larian skip that first step and start with surface-creating cantrips because surfaces is what they know? And if Larian started with a meticulous implementation of 5e, where is the "dodge" action?

So much this!!!
Posted By: Zellin Re: Subclasses? What is the plan? - 06/08/21 07:04 AM
They could and more likely did start with raw 5e implementation in prototype. And it's not something that normally goes into final product.
Posted By: daMichi Re: Subclasses? What is the plan? - 06/08/21 07:24 AM
So you think they had resting system, spell system, reaction system, action economy, ready action, feats, monsters etc. all implemented according to 5e RAW and then decided to kick 90% of it out, and implement 50% again but homebrewed?
Posted By: Zellin Re: Subclasses? What is the plan? - 06/08/21 07:38 AM
Originally Posted by daMichi
So you think they had resting system, spell system, reaction system, action economy, ready action, feats, monsters etc. all implemented according to 5e RAW and then decided to kick 90% of it out, and implement 50% again but homebrewed?
Just read about games prototyping. Google knows.
Posted By: daMichi Re: Subclasses? What is the plan? - 06/08/21 10:20 AM
Ok, it seems they tested that, IF they did prototyping, and Larian did not like the 5e mechanics, but are now stepping back from that stance, at least a little bit.

So hopefully - imho - they will continue to walk in that direction.
Posted By: spacehamster95 Re: Subclasses? What is the plan? - 06/08/21 10:32 AM
The main issue I think was the RTWP crowd. They made a real big fuss about turn-based combat being a sluggish drag, so Larian's first initiative was to create as dynamic and swift of a combat system as they could, so they erased all the features that would slow down combat (reactions being the main victim here).

I do think that at the end of the development progress, they will see that reactions are pretty vital for the 5e system and will include them.
Posted By: Terminator2020 Re: Subclasses? What is the plan? - 06/08/21 01:29 PM
Sigh first I need to defend more realistic agains ultra optimiotic posters view saying that NO all subclasses from PHB will not be in the game full release. Deal with it lol.

Well now some extreeme negative poster post something quoting a extreem negative posters views.

We will have all base classes from PHB in this game at full release. That is more then Solasta with their limited low budget DnD license and ugly doll like characters graphics.
Exactly how many subclases or Cleric domains from PHB will be available at full release is unknown, but I do hope we get more of them.

BG3 is 9/10 in my taste and Solasta is 7/10.
Posted By: Danielbda Re: Subclasses? What is the plan? - 06/08/21 02:10 PM
Originally Posted by Zellin
They could and more likely did start with raw 5e implementation in prototype. And it's not something that normally goes into final product.
They have never shown any evidence of that. I find it unlikely since the first gameplay showcase looked like a DOS mod and to me was a disaster.
So they implemented 5e raw -> just to step back and make a D&D/DOS hybrid -> just to step back and make it more like D&D but missing many core features?

Doesn't make any sense to me.
Posted By: Terminator2020 Re: Subclasses? What is the plan? - 06/08/21 02:17 PM
Originally Posted by Danielbda
Originally Posted by Zellin
They could and more likely did start with raw 5e implementation in prototype. And it's not something that normally goes into final product.
They have never shown any evidence of that. I find it unlikely since the first gameplay showcase looked like a DOS mod and to me was a disaster.
So they implemented 5e raw -> just to step back and make a D&D/DOS hybrid -> just to step back and make it more like D&D but missing many core features?

Doesn't make any sense to me.
The very first versions of BG3 was to far offmark from real DnD rules for my taste, but patch 5 have made great changes. No more does food heal in combat. Food is used for resting though. Well and then no longer it is easy to push opponents you need high strength for that so some dex based rogues will not pull of it. In addition opponent weight does count now so so if this game will have Giants I doubt you can push them.
You can not anymore jump away from opponents without causing an attack of opportunity. You can now use disengage to move away, but then you forfeit any chance to attack opponent as in real Dnd Rules. All this after patch 5 at least and enemy AI is smarter then before at least. Companions attitudes are tiny bit less hostile then before towards players.
I have been told on forums that later likely in Act 2 will be introduced good alignment companions.

Personally in Solasta I got super annoyed by somatic component need in spellcasting and immediately disabled it from settings.

I have played lots of Dungeons Dragons pen and paper with more then one GM and somatic component has not been a huge issue in those sessions combat is fluid.
With Solasta default settings when you choose most close to real Dnd rules my Wizard could not even cast Mage Armor when holding something in the hands. If I would meet a GM with so strict settings as Solasta default desktop settings when you choose most close to real DnD rules and top of that make somatic componet fix a slow process I would say sorry you can not be my GM and I quit playing DnD with you as GM. Well and those GM that I have played with has allowed me to as free action I say drop this item to get hand free and I dont need use some annoying interface to do it. GM has always made it fast and fluid thing for me. It takes less then 3 seconds with a fluid GM to understand I have hand free in real Pen and Paper if I say I drop this item and cast this spell.
Well and many friendly GM in pen and paper has been less strict about somatic component and do not even care if player do not have hand free when casting spells.
Posted By: Zellin Re: Subclasses? What is the plan? - 06/08/21 06:09 PM
Originally Posted by Danielbda
They have never shown any evidence of that. I find it unlikely since the first gameplay showcase looked like a DOS mod and to me was a disaster.
So they implemented 5e raw -> just to step back and make a D&D/DOS hybrid -> just to step back and make it more like D&D but missing many core features?

Doesn't make any sense to me.
Prototypes aren't being showcased at all aside from internal showcasing with "Yeah, guys, this is what we are going to develop". And they do exist more as a part of a game development documentation than actual part of a game. For better understanding same
Originally Posted by Zellin
Just read about games prototyping. Google knows.
Posted By: Argyle Re: Subclasses? What is the plan? - 06/08/21 07:21 PM
"Food is used for resting though."

Oh, thank you, Larian! One of my most enjoyable evening activities, after a long hard day's work, is to crawl into bed with a bag of onions and then munch away until I fall asleep.
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