Larian Studios
Posted By: Jess Pre-Patch Announcement - 01/07/21 06:07 PM
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]


Hello everyone! How are you doing?

It’s been a few months since we last spoke. Our lockdown hair is a little longer, our quarantine gut is a little rounder, and with every cubic inch that Adam Smith’s beard grows in volume we get ever closer to releasing our next patch. After calculating its weight and circumference, we can safely say that day is right around the corner.

Patch 5 is heading to you next week, and we’ve got an epic Panel From Hell planned to showcase all the updates coming your way. Make sure you join us July 8th at 11am PT on Twitch where our team of Baldurian devs and magic wielders will introduce all the new the contents of Patch 5, then vote on what happens next as they scour a wizard’s tower in search of an ancient artifact in: Panel From Hell 3 - Twitch Plays: A Most Noble Sacrifice.

Of course, with Patch 5 imminent, we want to remind you that any saves made Patch 4 or prior will no longer be compatible when updated.

So we’re once again branching out with the same solution as before. There are options for you if you want to continue your Patch 3 or Patch 4 saves, or if you instead want to make sure you’ve got the most up-to-date content. Have a gander below and follow the directions for whichever solution suits you best. Note: Branching unfortunately won’t be available on Stadia for the moment.

1. How to Update Your Game to Patch 5: If you want to play the most up to date version of the game and have never opted into any beta branches in the past, then good news: You don’t need to do anything! When the patch releases, you will receive the most updated version of the game as long as you have automatic updates enabled. To enable automatic updates, please follow the steps below:

STEAM:

  • Right click on the game in your Steam library
  • Select properties
  • Click the Updates tab
  • Select "Always keep this game updated" in the drop down menu


[Linked Image from media.giphy.com]

2. How to Update to Patch 5 If You’ve Opted into an Earlier Beta Branch: If you previously opted into any beta for either Patch 2 or Patch 3 and want to ensure you get the most up to date content when Patch 5 goes live, then please follow the steps below:

STEAM:

  • Right click on the game in your Steam library
  • Select properties
  • Click the Betas tab
  • Select "None" in the drop down menu


[Linked Image from media.giphy.com]

3. How to Continue Your Patch 4 Save: If you want to continue your progress on Patch 4, then take the following steps. Alternatively, if you just want to update your game from Patch 4 then follow the very first set of instructions laid out at the top of the page.

STEAM:

  • Right click on the game in your Steam library
  • Select properties
  • Click the BETAS tab
  • In the list under "Select the beta you would like to opt in to", select Patch 4
  • Close the properties menu


[Linked Image from media.giphy.com]

GOG:

  • Select the game from the owned games section
  • Click the settings button top right and select manage installation > configure
  • To disable auto-updates, there is a checkbox “automatically update to new version” > uncheck this box to stay on the current patch
  • Unchecking this box will let you roll back to a previous version


[Linked Image from media.giphy.com]

If you’d like to continue your save file on the current version, you can move to the Patch 4 beta branch now. Save files are not ‘deleted’ from your computer; they’ll remain in your folder, but you’ll only be able to load saves specific to their respective versions.

Important Note: If you want the option to go back to the previous patch, it’s best to make a new in-game profile and backup your local saves from the previous patch. You can do the following before or after you update to the latest version:

  • Before starting a new playthrough, create a new profile by clicking the profiles button on the top left of the main menu. All your progress in the new patch will then be saved under this profile while your old saves are safe in the previous profile.
  • As an extra safety measure, you can manually back up your savegames:
    Go to /Documents/Larian Studios/Baldur's Gate 3/PlayerProfiles/
    Find the folder that is named after the profile you used in the previous patch
    Copy and paste this entire folder into a backup location
  • If you want to revert back to the previous patch, follow the instructions above and activate your old profile
  • If you have somehow lost your progress by overwriting savegames and want to restore your old backed up savegames simply copy over your old profile folder into its original location again: /Documents/Larian Studios/Baldur's Gate 3/PlayerProfiles/
    Sync back to the patch2 beta branch with the instructions above and load your old savegames
Posted By: CJMPinger Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 01/07/21 06:17 PM
Hallelujah!
Posted By: Nyloth Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 01/07/21 06:37 PM
Yay! I will definitely come to the stream.
Posted By: Blackheifer Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 01/07/21 06:41 PM
Can't wait! Wouldn't miss it for the world!
Posted By: Kolvaer Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 01/07/21 07:18 PM
NICE!
Posted By: virion Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 01/07/21 08:31 PM
SEND IT LARIAN!
Posted By: AlenaValentine Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 01/07/21 08:43 PM
Hi, I saw Sven's tweet about the next Panel from Hell and I was wondering if anyone knows what a moggouwtoch is? I can't find anything about it online
Posted By: ArcanaJayne Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 01/07/21 09:09 PM
YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES!
Posted By: Blackheifer Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 01/07/21 09:28 PM
Originally Posted by AlenaValentine
Hi, I saw Sven's tweet about the next Panel from Hell and I was wondering if anyone knows what a moggouwtoch is? I can't find anything about it online

Its flemish for either "OMG wtf", or "Gosh Golly Gee" or something...

best guess its either nonsense, or a drink or a monster for the LARP.

Its also possible it is some sort of dialectic idiomatic phrase that's specific to Ghent or someone's region.**

Oh and to find it on translate you have to split the phrase properly.

Mog Gouw Toch


** As an American I have to say that turnabout is fair play in my book - since we pull this with everyone.
Posted By: Alexandrite Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 01/07/21 09:40 PM
Yes!! Yes! Yes! Awesome news! Doing a happy dance. Very excited for Patch 5. I didn't want to burn out on the game so haven't played in a month or so. Can't wait to dive in again. laugh
Posted By: Icelyn Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 01/07/21 11:25 PM
Yay! Excited that the patch is coming next week! claphands
Posted By: S2PHANE Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 01/07/21 11:43 PM
Wanna bet they're gonna pull ye old ''its not ready yet'' and keep us on our toes for the next few days after the 8th? laugh
Posted By: MarcoNeves Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 02/07/21 01:45 AM
Woohoo!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted By: Dez Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 02/07/21 02:05 AM
Woooooo! \o/ Hype!
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 02/07/21 02:48 AM
I'm honestly trying to not get too hyped. I'm afraid it'll just be another Loaded Dice patch. I really hope they've truly decided to make some awesome updates. REALLY REALLY REALLY.

I feel like this patch is make or break for the game. If they screw this one up and disappoint fans...
Posted By: Niara Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 02/07/21 02:59 AM
So the promised more in depth community update just never happened at all - all we're getting is a Panel that they will, again, have spent far too much time and effort on for the sake of flash, and the patch itself, which is long, long, LONG overdue after their assurances of more regular patching.

It will take more than another assurance of an update to enthuse me at this point; I'll remain sceptical until I actually see something of value.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 02/07/21 03:29 AM
Unfortunately, same. Im very VERY leary about this patch.

For example, let's say they decided to fix height advantage by adding +5 to attack rolls instead of advantage. That would be worse. A person with +4 already to hit would get +9, making hitting someone with AC 13 a 4 or higher. As it is, a +2 would be only 7 or higher.

If they even fix some of the things we've been beating to death, but they don't fix them right... that's my point.
Posted By: Niara Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 02/07/21 05:09 AM
Okay, so, wait....

So...

After the PFH2, last time, which was (in this poster's personal opinion) an overproduced waste of time, money and resources, for the sake of announcing a patch update to their EA game... They're now doing another PFH, to announce their Next patch update for their EA game... and THIS time, they're Hiring Out A Landmark Castle For a Private Function? A castle whose historical day tours can cost up to $1000 per head, and they're booking it out for their panel. THIS is what they're spending their development budget on?

Please, someone tell me I've misunderstood this.
Posted By: EvilVik Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 02/07/21 05:50 AM
Originally Posted by Niara
Okay, so, wait....

So...

After the PFH2, last time, which was (in this poster's personal opinion) an overproduced waste of time, money and resources, for the sake of announcing a patch update to their EA game... They're now doing another PFH, to announce their Next patch update for their EA game... and THIS time, they're Hiring Out A Landmark Castle For a Private Function? A castle whose historical day tours can cost up to $1000 per head, and they're booking it out for their panel. THIS is what they're spending their development budget on?

Please, someone tell me I've misunderstood this.

I think you're missing the main point of why they are doing what they are doing. The money they spend on marketing for an event like this is peanuts compared to what paid advertisement costs.
The effect of one panel is multiplied by every online gaming site reporting from it. It stands out, everyone talks about it (good or bad) and you make noise that has actual reach.

They would have to spend 10x the money for an ad campaign with the same reach.
Posted By: Alexandrite Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 02/07/21 05:57 AM
Originally Posted by EvilVik
I think you're missing the main point of why they are doing what they are doing. The money they spend on marketing for an event like this is peanuts compared to what paid advertisement costs.
The effect of one panel is multiplied by every online gaming site reporting from it. It stands out, everyone talks about it (good or bad) and you make noise that has actual reach.

They would have to spend 10x the money for an ad campaign with the same reach.

Yes... it is definitely a clever marketing move. And they know they need marketing after all the bad press in the past few months over lack of updates/communication.
Not to mention, said expensive castle already is available for things like weddings and other private functions (according to their website), and probably could use a boost in a time of very few tourists.
Posted By: Seraphael Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 02/07/21 06:41 AM
Jess? Yes yes! Countdown on my calendar smile
Posted By: Niara Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 02/07/21 06:56 AM
I respectfully disagree that it's a good expenditure of funds, or good value for marketing.

They need to generate positive hype for the game; hosting their event in a castle won't achieve that, not when they were determined already to put on a flashy panel show of some sort, which would be distributed and consumed digitally regardless of its actual venue, and not when many, many folks are already question whether Larian has bitten off more than they can chew, are in over their head, and are committing repeated mistakes of personal hubris along the way at every turn. A flashy publicity stunt for a game patch that is long overdue, and the end of a long string of broken words and statements and other misleading marketing, does not make them look professional or like they are doing anything other than flailing about hopefully.

Edit: Let me put it another way... The people who are already on board and hyped for the game are not the ones they need to reach or sell to. The patch itself will do that, as illustrated by the first half dozen comments in this thread. The people who are not interested and who haven't yet bought in on the game are not going to be won over by anything other than the actual content of the patch itself. The people who want to love the game, and who need to be given an infusion of hope and hype after the drought and disappointment are the ones that they need their update campaigning to appeal to the most - I'm in that group, and this drives me away, rather than draws me in.
Posted By: Anfindel Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 02/07/21 07:54 AM
They are putting on a flashy marketing event for a D&D RPG in a local castle, located right down the road from their offices. Said Castle is a venue for such events, and likely has had few if any over the past year due to COVID. I'm sure it is happy to have ANY bookings at this point, especially one that would generate publicity for it - weddings and such generally do NOT generate the kind of publicity this will.

I would anticipate Larian received a very good deal regarding costs, given these facts.

The only drawback for this would be choice of "host" as Sven simply isn't the best choice for that. Hopefully they will have someone with a bit more PR/Hosting experience as the front for the show
Posted By: EvilVik Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 02/07/21 08:05 AM
Originally Posted by Niara
I respectfully disagree that it's a good expenditure of funds, or good value for marketing.

They need to generate positive hype for the game; hosting their event in a castle won't achieve that, not when they were determined already to put on a flashy panel show of some sort, which would be distributed and consumed digitally regardless of its actual venue, and not when many, many folks are already question whether Larian has bitten off more than they can chew, are in over their head, and are committing repeated mistakes of personal hubris along the way at every turn. A flashy publicity stunt for a game patch that is long overdue, and the end of a long string of broken words and statements and other misleading marketing, does not make them look professional or like they are doing anything other than flailing about hopefully.

Edit: Let me put it another way... The people who are already on board and hyped for the game are not the ones they need to reach or sell to. The patch itself will do that, as illustrated by the first half dozen comments in this thread. The people who are not interested and who haven't yet bought in on the game are not going to be won over by anything other than the actual content of the patch itself. The people who want to love the game, and who need to be given an infusion of hope and hype after the drought and disappointment are the ones that they need their update campaigning to appeal to the most - I'm in that group, and this drives me away, rather than draws me in.

I fully see your point of view, but I still believe you're missing the point of such an event.
Sure, it will give us that stalk forums some long awaited news, but we would have settled for patch notes. But the big crowd out there are not the forum lurkers, the vocal fans or the 600+ hours in EA - It's the people who never seen or played the game. The NEW customers they want to draw in and get hyped for the game. The ones that just read the occasional article on gamespot or other media.
And if you read previews, news and other article from gaming media, the reporting is overwhelmingly positive around BG3. Everytime they do an event, more positive article comes out of it. Some of them even highlighting Larian's (awful) homebrew of things.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 02/07/21 09:10 AM
Originally Posted by Niara
I respectfully disagree that it's a good expenditure of funds, or good value for marketing.
In that case i gues its good thing that you are not the one who decides what they should invest to. wink :P

//edit:
Why even care? Its their money ...
If they want to have less, but have fancy panels ... its their decision. laugh
I mean ... it would be different thing, if this game would be funed by some startup, and barely made it ... but as far as i know, this is not the case. laugh
Posted By: CJMPinger Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 02/07/21 09:28 AM
I don't know if it is a good use or bad use of funds, and I don't think we will know til afterwards, and even then I wouldn't know. I just hope that they address some community concerns during it.
Posted By: RutgerF Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 02/07/21 09:59 AM
Originally Posted by Niara
I respectfully disagree that it's a good expenditure of funds, or good value for marketing.

They need to generate positive hype for the game
Just wait and see, you might be surprised.

I mean, not by the event itself of course; we forum rats are well beyond that point. It's the large audience which hasn't been put on the "D:OS3 King Of The Hill Rush The Ladder Edition" (c) hype train yet, that's what they are aiming for.

Imo they should be given credit when it's due: this is a very unorthodox and bold move, which will certainly boost endorphins' levels in quite a lot of people's heads. Clever trick, I'd give them that.

What they possibly don't realise however, is that this kind of kunststück will only work once. If they will continue to deliver more cheese, and not much else, the backlash can be devastating. They could be essentially cornering themselves as we speak.
Posted By: Blackheifer Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 02/07/21 10:24 AM
I am also interested in seeing those Twitch numbers and comments. Its not a bad way to see who is still paying attention and what they think.
Posted By: CJMPinger Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 02/07/21 10:34 AM
Honestly, I appreciate that this forum is one of the more negative places, cause it feels like people are more willing to actually state what they think and people are willing to say what they like and dislike about specific things. elsewhere negativity seems to get shot down pretty quickly which kinda drowns out specific feedback...

That said, I kinda do what to see the comments during the stream, see what others reactions cause I might be too steeped in this forum that I kinda stopped checking other places about this game.
Posted By: Niara Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 02/07/21 11:11 AM
Originally Posted by RutgerF
What they possibly don't realise however, is that this kind of kunststück will only work once. If they will continue to deliver more cheese, and not much else, the backlash can be devastating. They could be essentially cornering themselves as we speak.

Perhaps, but I consider the PFH2 that 'once' - it didn't go over well then, and more of the same will not do any better now. "Bold and Unorthodox" doesn't necessarily mean "effective" "worthwhile" or "good", as much as marketing division often treat them as synonyms (different doesn't mean useful, innovative doesn't mean functional, etc.)... and if it turns out to be more pyrotechnics, smoke and mirrors, for yet another underwhelming patch that didn't deserve the fanfare, then that's going to be real bad... and I'm not optimistic as of yet that it will not be exactly that.

I mean, please understand... there's no vindictiveness here; I'm not against them, and I don't want them to fail. I'm not attacking their choices out of any sort of spite or hatred... I want this game to be good and I want to like it, truly I do. I want them to succeed... but if the price of success is a half-baked game with no depth that appeals to the extreme lowest common denominator of flashy gaming, and fails utterly to actually feel like a D&D game, then that's a cost too far... and every time I see more of this, I see things moving more and more in that direction.


To Rag, as for why care... well, yeah, sure, it's their money; but a great many companies have bankrupted themselves or floundered by trying to upsell and oversell themselves and their scope/audience appeal without spending enough focus on their actual product, and right now Larian has about eight out of ten of the hallmarks and warning flags for doing exactly that... and as I said, I don't want them to fail.
Posted By: TestyMcTesterson Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 02/07/21 11:33 AM
I'm honestly not sure why they want to increase the chaos in the panel via a twitch plays stream, LARPing around a castle, a combination of both ideas or whatever the new idea is. The last panel was chaotic enough that it took from rather than added to enjoyment.

I'll probably just skip this and find a summary after.

edit

i'm assuming it's a combination of both because of the reference to twitch plays and " Larian's first LarPG" in the tweet annoucement.
Posted By: TomReneth Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 02/07/21 11:45 AM
My hopes for patch 5:

Level 5
Pact of the Blade for Warlocks
New class and subclasses
New companion
Posted By: RutgerF Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 02/07/21 11:51 AM
No argument here, I also want to have a good game in the end. We all do, I suppose - that's why most of us are here, on these forums (not everyone, clearly, but hey...).

I probably didn't make it clear in my post, but I wasn't talking about the product (or, in this case, the update). I meant this particular PR stunt only. Not sure what they did before in this department, wasn't following. For some reason, I find it difficult to keep track of Larian's news, other than through the forum updates. Must be something in the water, or maybe my timezone isn't very suitable for their streams (it will be 4 AM Friday here).

Completely agree about the warning flags. I hope they won't be doing PFH 4 from space, along with Bezos (or Branson, whatever).
Posted By: Alexandrite Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 02/07/21 11:58 AM
Originally Posted by RutgerF
or maybe my timezone isn't very suitable for their streams (it will be 4 AM Friday here).

Yep - I am also debating whether I'm crazy enough to wake up at 4am to follow this along live, or just watch/read about how it went later smile
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 02/07/21 12:02 PM
This is problem i have with every single American studio ...
Finaly some European make streams in good time for me, dont you dare to take it away! laugh
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 02/07/21 12:29 PM
I'm afraid based on the announcement that all we're going to get this patch is more Multiplayer features. Thus, LARPing around a castle determining who makes it out alive. We, the viewers multiplay Larian folks running around... implying multiplayer features.

We'll see. Even more so now, not getting my hopes up.
Posted By: CJMPinger Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 02/07/21 12:42 PM
I might have googled wrong, but 11AM PT will be 2PM EST right? I can be pretty bad with geography and timezones lol, not my strongsuit.
Posted By: virion Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 02/07/21 12:54 PM
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
This is problem i have with every single American studio ...
Finaly some European make streams in good time for me, dont you dare to take it away! laugh

THIS
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 02/07/21 12:55 PM
Originally Posted by CJMPinger
I might have googled wrong, but 11AM PT will be 2PM EST right? I can be pretty bad with geography and timezones lol, not my strongsuit.
20:00 in CEST timezone. O_o

And if you are not quite sure, there is countdown in https://baldursgate3.game/ wink
Posted By: Niara Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 02/07/21 01:03 PM
Originally Posted by RutgerF
I meant this particular PR stunt only. Not sure what they did before in this department, wasn't following. For some reason, I find it difficult to keep track of Larian's news, other than through the forum updates.

No worries, I just meant that I was considering their previous panel form hell to be their one time 'flash and dazzle' stunt - and this is gearing up to be just more of the same only bigger, messier and even less relevant.

There's a run down of their previous Panel From Hell if you missed out - you can read it here: Panel From Hell II Synopsis.
Posted By: TestyMcTesterson Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 02/07/21 01:18 PM
Are you considering another summary for this panel?
Posted By: Niara Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 02/07/21 01:24 PM
Tentatively, I'm planning to, yes, but it will depend on what I've got on my plate.
Posted By: TestyMcTesterson Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 02/07/21 01:29 PM
That's fair. I played the previous streams at 2x speed to get through them quickly so it wouldn't be surprising if you don't want to transcribe another one.
Posted By: CJMPinger Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 02/07/21 01:32 PM
Originally Posted by Niara
Tentatively, I'm planning to, yes, but it will depend on what I've got on my plate.

Personally I'd give it some time before typing up a summary, so initial impressions can fade, the good and bad ones.
Posted By: Niara Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 02/07/21 01:44 PM
Well, I won't be watching live regardless - I don't watch or support twitch in any way, because I refuse absolutely to support Amazon in any way. At any rate, I try to keep my synopses factual and descriptive, and mark out anything that's part of my personal opinion or commentary clearly... I'm aware that I'm a harsh critic, after all ^.^
Posted By: Dark_Ansem Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 02/07/21 01:49 PM
Aw just twitch no YouTube?
Posted By: TestyMcTesterson Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 02/07/21 01:53 PM
It's a twitch plays driven LARP escape room so there might not be an advantage to them using youtube. Might even be getting twitch money for the night because they've been incorporating streaming functionality from day one.
Posted By: Dark_Ansem Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 02/07/21 02:17 PM
I see, thanks for the explanation!
Posted By: kanisatha Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 02/07/21 02:31 PM
Originally Posted by TestyMcTesterson
It's a twitch plays drived LARP escape room so there might not be an advantage to them using youtube. Might even be getting twitch money for the night because they've been incorporating streaming functionality from day one.
Well, Twitch does not provide closed captioning for us hearing impaired people, so I can't watch it. I am counting on good summaries from people like @Niara. smile
Posted By: Blackheifer Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 02/07/21 02:49 PM
Originally Posted by CJMPinger
Honestly, I appreciate that this forum is one of the more negative places, cause it feels like people are more willing to actually state what they think and people are willing to say what they like and dislike about specific things. elsewhere negativity seems to get shot down pretty quickly which kinda drowns out specific feedback...

That said, I kinda do what to see the comments during the stream, see what others reactions cause I might be too steeped in this forum that I kinda stopped checking other places about this game.

Well negative feedback is useful. It only becomes problematic when people become abusive. What we don't see much anymore is people making broad negative statements about Larian or its employees.

Originally Posted by CJMPinger
I might have googled wrong, but 11AM PT will be 2PM EST right? I can be pretty bad with geography and timezones lol, not my strongsuit.

Correct. 1pm central, 2pm EST
Posted By: Sir Dent Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 02/07/21 03:52 PM
Originally Posted by AlenaValentine
Hi, I saw Sven's tweet about the next Panel from Hell and I was wondering if anyone knows what a moggouwtoch is? I can't find anything about it online

Mog - slowly, or love depending on language or the Final Fantasy Character :P
Gou - Enough, dog, or cow
wt - with or weight
och - regret or surprise

Mogg - a rich person or a Swedish heavy metal band from the 80s
ou - man

Mo - short
gg - good game/going
o - of or sorrow
uw - your welcome
toch - nevertheless

The question is which is the right combo of words

love cow with surprise? We know they love their cows
slow enough with regret? Maybe referring to the time it took between patches?
Rich man with surprise? Sven is going full Oprah on us and we are all have something under our seats? (you get a bard, you get a bard, everyone here gets a bard)

Maybe i am missing words/definitions

Also not at all serious with this but its a fun exercise
Posted By: Nyloth Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 02/07/21 03:56 PM
Originally Posted by CJMPinger
Honestly, I appreciate that this forum is one of the more negative places, cause it feels like people are more willing to actually state what they think and people are willing to say what they like and dislike about specific things. elsewhere negativity seems to get shot down pretty quickly which kinda drowns out specific feedback...

That said, I kinda do what to see the comments during the stream, see what others reactions cause I might be too steeped in this forum that I kinda stopped checking other places about this game.

There is literally too much negativity. Most people adhere to the same position and aggressively push those who disagree with them. It is a pity that this is happening here. There is a huge difference between criticism and the usual pressure with "this is the ONLY good choice" in each topic.

Well, I think everything will be fine on the stream, I have never seen a sharp negative reaction there. Larian seems to have a good reputation.
Posted By: Dtelm Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 02/07/21 04:12 PM
Originally Posted by Sir Dent
Originally Posted by AlenaValentine
Hi, I saw Sven's tweet about the next Panel from Hell and I was wondering if anyone knows what a moggouwtoch is? I can't find anything about it online

...

Also not at all serious with this but its a fun exercise


Yeah, so. Apparently it's flemish, some kind of expression of shock or surprise. I did a similar run on deciphering this super secret swen code haha.... custom hogwog? :P
Posted By: Absalom Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 02/07/21 04:26 PM
Originally Posted by Nyloth
Originally Posted by CJMPinger
Honestly, I appreciate that this forum is one of the more negative places, cause it feels like people are more willing to actually state what they think and people are willing to say what they like and dislike about specific things. elsewhere negativity seems to get shot down pretty quickly which kinda drowns out specific feedback...

That said, I kinda do what to see the comments during the stream, see what others reactions cause I might be too steeped in this forum that I kinda stopped checking other places about this game.

There is literally too much negativity. Most people adhere to the same position and aggressively push those who disagree with them. It is a pity that this is happening here. There is a huge difference between criticism and the usual pressure with "this is the ONLY good choice" in each topic.

Well, I think everything will be fine on the stream, I have never seen a sharp negative reaction there. Larian seems to have a good reputation.

Agreed - I really dig the game and have played through several times already. That's a big statement in it's own... playing through an incomplete, glitchy, broken game multiple times and enjoying it each and every time? It's almost like I got my money's worth from just Chapter 1 and there's still 3? 4? more chapters to come. I'll be patient and play the daylights out of BG3 for a long time to come.
Posted By: timebean Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 02/07/21 04:30 PM
I am looking forward to the stream, personally. Watching and commenting on stuff like this with my gaming pals is always a good time.

I also find it hilarious that we have a whole topic on the forums about communication from the Larian, full of comments about the lack of updates and interactions with the community.

In that same topic channel, people have shared video updates from games like WoTC as examples of treating your community well by keeping them updated with good things like well made videos.

And then, when they announce a big update with a stream to boot…the whinging starts about their choice of venue, use of funds, attempts to attract other types of players (le gasp…how could they???), as well as the dire prediction that they will overhype and underdeliver (CDPR style).

Its just a patch and a twitch stream. Neither the saving grace of the world or first sign of the apocalypse. Sheesh.

Also…I personally hope it is the sorcerer class they added and a new race (gnomes would be fun!)——and that they worked on differentiating the caster classes.
Posted By: Sir Dent Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 02/07/21 04:49 PM
Also, WotC "Sorry the game we just released was complete garbage and. We are sorry, heres your money back, kk thanks bye"

Not saying thats happening here (hopefully patch 5 doesnt delete the game in a month) , just I would rather let them take their time to make a quality product and not the buggy unplayable at full launch garbage I see from other developers.
Posted By: mrfuji3 Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 02/07/21 04:49 PM
Originally Posted by timebean
I also find it hilarious that we have a whole topic on the forums about communication from the Larian, full of comments about the lack of updates and interactions with the community.
By "interactions with the community," personally I was hoping for something closer to an AMA or answering questions from twitch chat rather than an interactive LARP. The latter can be fun, sure, but it probably won't provide much information on Larian's response to feedback and what is planned for future updates. Additionally, we were promised a community update on how Larian parses feedback, which looks to be potentially replaced by this LARP. You're allowed to look forward to the LARP, but others are equally allowed to want a focus on something else.

Originally Posted by timebean
In that same topic channel, people have shared video updates from games like WoTC as examples of treating your community well by keeping them updated with good things like well made videos.

And then, when they announce a big update with a stream to boot…the whinging starts about their choice of venue, use of funds, attempts to attract other types of players (le gasp…how could they???), as well as the dire prediction that they will overhype and underdeliver (CDPR style).
As I understand it, the argument was that a big showy PFH3 will mainly be watched by people already aware of BG3: and thus not bring in many new players. A big event should definitely be held for the announcement of EA and for full release, but is it worth it for individual patches? The resources dedicated to these patches could be spent on hiring additional coders/writers/animators, and thus help to get the full game out faster.
Posted By: SarwenUndomiel Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 02/07/21 05:41 PM
I. AM. SO. HAPPY!

Finally another reason to start a new playthrough wink.

[Linked Image from i.pinimg.com]
Posted By: Icelyn Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 02/07/21 05:59 PM
Originally Posted by mrfuji3
Additionally, we were promised a community update on how Larian parses feedback, which looks to be potentially replaced by this LARP. You're allowed to look forward to the LARP, but others are equally allowed to want a focus on something else.
They post a community update with every patch, so I am sure they will with this one, too. smile
Posted By: mrfuji3 Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 02/07/21 06:06 PM
Originally Posted by Icelyn
Originally Posted by mrfuji3
Additionally, we were promised a community update on how Larian parses feedback, which looks to be potentially replaced by this LARP. You're allowed to look forward to the LARP, but others are equally allowed to want a focus on something else.
They post a community update with every patch, so I am sure they will with this one, too. smile
I'd imagine that the community update has the ~same information as the PFH, no? That's how it worked for PFH2 at least. So if the PFH doesn't have info on feedback, then I doubt the community update will.

Don't get me wrong, I'd be super happy if the PFH3 had both the LARP and the feedback info, or even if only the community update had it. But the fact that none of the tweets announcing PFH3 nor this forum announcement have mentioned any discussion of feedback is a bit worrying. Especially considering that the previous hotfix specifically mentioned that such a discussion was coming soon™, so it's odd that they wouldn't reaffirm its presence in PFH3. Maybe they think it doesn't need to be repeated...? In that case I'll be pleasantly surprised.
Posted By: Nyloth Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 02/07/21 06:20 PM
Originally Posted by mrfuji3
Originally Posted by Icelyn
Originally Posted by mrfuji3
Additionally, we were promised a community update on how Larian parses feedback, which looks to be potentially replaced by this LARP. You're allowed to look forward to the LARP, but others are equally allowed to want a focus on something else.
They post a community update with every patch, so I am sure they will with this one, too. smile
I'd imagine that the community update has the ~same information as the PFH, no? That's how it worked for PFH2 at least. So if the PFH doesn't have info on feedback, then I doubt the community update will.

Don't get me wrong, I'd be super happy if the PFH3 had both the LARP and the feedback info, or even if only the community update had it. But the fact that none of the tweets announcing PFH3 nor this forum announcement have mentioned any discussion of feedback is a bit worrying. Especially considering that the previous hotfix specifically mentioned that such a discussion was coming soon™, so it's odd that they wouldn't reaffirm its presence in PFH3. Maybe they think it doesn't need to be repeated...? In that case I'll be pleasantly surprised.

Not really, in community update we have more detailed and changes list, on PFH only general or most important things.
Posted By: Icelyn Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 02/07/21 06:50 PM
Originally Posted by mrfuji3
Maybe they think it doesn't need to be repeated...?
Probably this, but we will see next week.
Posted By: mrfuji3 Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 02/07/21 08:00 PM
Originally Posted by Nyloth
Not really, in community update we have more detailed and changes list, on PFH only general or most important things.
I think a discussion of how Larian parses feedback & telemetry is one of the most important things for a game in EA. At the very least it's incredibly important for forum participation. Knowing how/if Larian looks at our forum posts, and maybe even what mechanics Larian is considering or will never change, will significantly affect forum posts and discussion.
Posted By: Aazo Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 03/07/21 03:24 AM
I am honestly looking forward to testing the patch. As for the PFH? I am honestly not interested in watching it. Long winded hype trains may be fine for some folks, but not me. Even if it is played out in a cool European castle. The meat for me is in the patch!
Posted By: Tuco Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 03/07/21 11:31 AM
Originally Posted by Alexandrite
Yes... it is definitely a clever marketing move. And they know they need marketing after all the bad press in the past few months over lack of updates/communication.
Wait, did they get ANY bad press at any point in the past months?

Worst they got, as far as I knew, was a bunch of nobodies like me complaining on their forums.
I have yet to see any gaming press being anything other than flattering toward Larian in the last year or so.
Posted By: Tuco Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 03/07/21 11:39 AM
Originally Posted by timebean
I also find it hilarious that we have a whole topic on the forums about communication from the Larian, full of comments about the lack of updates and interactions with the community.
In that same topic channel, people have shared video updates from games like WoTC as examples of treating your community well by keeping them updated with good things like well made videos.

And then, when they announce a big update with a stream to boot…the whinging starts about their choice of venue, use of funds, attempts to attract other types of players (le gasp…how could they???), as well as the dire prediction that they will overhype and underdeliver (CDPR style).
Dunno, it MAY be related to the fact that these same people wanted to see updates about the game and what the devs have to say about the direction the game is moving toward, not a bunch of employees being pushed into public humiliation by their boss for the amusement of a very non-specific target audience.

People posted these "updates about other games" precisely to stress how different (and more effective) their communication about it has been.

Oh well, at very least let's hope this time the production will have any vague resemblance of being done professionally and with some working audio, for a change.
Wonder if we'll get any other "WoTC big shot" introduced as a big guest star only to read a couple of lines from the official manual and then being unceremoniously dismissed off-screen.
Posted By: Alexandrite Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 03/07/21 12:08 PM
Originally Posted by Tuco
not a bunch of employees being pushed into public humiliation by their boss for the amusement of a very non-specific target audience.

WOW, that's one hell of an assumption. Pushed into public humiliation? Really?

Could the people who work for Larian be working on an RPG because - gasp! - they like RPGs, and quite a few of them probably enjoy DnD and/or LARP themselves. What you see as "public humiliation" I see as a fun team-building exercise, for people who enjoy games to begin with. I'm sure their boss wouldn't have to look far to find employees who enjoy DnD/LARP and wouldn't mind giving this presentation a try, without having to "push them" into it.
Posted By: Tuco Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 03/07/21 12:27 PM
Yes, really.

I mean, anyone pushed into LARPing is going to face public humiliation, regardless of how much they may enjoy the experience themselves.
Posted By: The Composer Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 03/07/21 12:37 PM
I'd question the intent of attributing personal opinions onto what is humiliating or not in this regard. Sounds a lot like hobby-shaming.
Posted By: virion Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 03/07/21 02:28 PM
If public humiliation is being paid to participate in an event in an medieval castle with travel paid etc....holy shit just sign me up.
Posted By: qwerrecd42 Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 03/07/21 04:36 PM
Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by Alexandrite
Yes... it is definitely a clever marketing move. And they know they need marketing after all the bad press in the past few months over lack of updates/communication.
Wait, did they get ANY bad press at any point in the past months?

Worst they got, as far as I knew, was a bunch of nobodies like me complaining on their forums.
I have yet to see any gaming press being anything other than flattering toward Larian in the last year or so.

I remember one fairly negative review of the current state of early access that got deluged by a bunch of people acting like a games jounalist doesn't know what early access is. That's about it.
Posted By: CJMPinger Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 03/07/21 05:46 PM
Most bad press is people complaining about a lack of communication and then people complaining about people complaining, very little negative press is about Larian at all.
Posted By: Tuco Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 03/07/21 06:03 PM
Originally Posted by CJMPinger
Most bad press is people complaining about a lack of communication and then people complaining about people complaining, very little negative press is about Larian at all.
That's mostly the buzz among the user base, though.
The press itself has been very friendly to Larian as far I can remember.
Posted By: Merlex Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 03/07/21 08:17 PM
Hopefully this patch has something to draw me back in. I haven't played in months. Until a couple of weeks ago I'd been playing Solasta. Currently I'm wrapped up in Galactic Civilizations IV, which is in Alpha. I'm having a lot of fun, so this patch better really have a big draw. Like School of Enchantment Wizard, Paladin, Bard, or a new reaction system with the Shield spell. My 2 video game loves, RPGs and 4X TBS. Right now GalCiv4 is winning hands down. I may not play BG3 again until full release.
Posted By: Abits Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 03/07/21 08:47 PM
Well hopefully this patch will have something interesting for us to play with. My expectations are very low by now. I really feel like the EA has nothing more to offer and now it's just a very long wait for the full game. I'll probably play it since I already own it, but I'm not super hopeful for it.
Posted By: Bufotenina Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 03/07/21 09:38 PM
Originally Posted by CJMPinger
Most bad press is people complaining about a lack of communication and then people complaining about people complaining, very little negative press is about Larian at all.


Most bad press is a fraction of a fraction of a large users base, fraction of a fraction somhow convinced that they represent ALL the players even when just a quick analysis on the posts flux in this forum shows that the bigger part is created by a group of few users, complaining in some social platforms about Larian not giving them what they want and convinced that they represent what is going on in the world (were a bunch of players are not obsessed with video games and just use them casually).


Said that I hope that with this patch they start to unlock new areas being one who gets easily annoyed and bored I stopped playing after the third patch because I know all the dialogues, all the routes, all the quests.
Posted By: Absalom Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 03/07/21 09:59 PM
Originally Posted by Bufotenina
Said that I hope that with this patch they start to unlock new areas being one who gets easily annoyed and bored I stopped playing after the third patch because I know all the dialogues, all the routes, all the quests.

That would be my wish as well. I hear many asking for Level 5 but that is of little use. How many encounters are you going to have at that tier? 3? 4? Give me new areas to explore even if I'm a bit underpowered for the fights, I'll figure a way to win even if it means being cheesy with barrels.
Posted By: Tuco Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 04/07/21 12:52 AM
Originally Posted by Bufotenina
Most bad press is a fraction of a fraction of a large users base, fraction of a fraction somhow convinced that they represent ALL the players even when just a quick analysis on the posts flux in this forum shows that the bigger part is created by a group of few users, complaining in some social platforms about Larian not giving them what they want and convinced that they represent what is going on in the world (were a bunch of players are not obsessed with video games and just use them casually).
Aside for the vaguely annoying dismissive attitude toward a portion of the community implied in this comment (but it's pretty damn obvious you felt like you had an axe to grind on this topic) that's not even "press" in any sense of the term.
Posted By: Blackheifer Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 04/07/21 02:54 PM
Here is some bad press for you guys to get excited over.

https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2020...s-mediocre-rpg-amazing-rendering-engine/

Personally I don't think anyone cares what Ars Technica thinks about Video Games. I didn't even KNOW they reviewed games.

Anyway, but yeah, most press has been cautiously optimistic about this game.

The user base discussion is a different story. I think the upcoming Twitch thing will give us some good reactions on what people think.
Posted By: Mat22 Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 04/07/21 03:50 PM
This is not bad press but it does highlight some mechanics people want larian to change in patch 5 (and future patches) https://goombastomp.com/larians-next-big-move-what-the-future-could-hold-for-baldurs-gate-3/
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 04/07/21 05:19 PM
I just feel urge to say something about this ...
I feel almost sory for that guy. laugh

When i remember my first gameplay i was also all the time like "wtf?" and "why is this happening?" and he seem almost as lost as i was ...
Now ... seeing all those missed opourtunities, just bcs the was as close minded as i was back then ... unable to think outside his little box ... i simply feel almost sory for him. laugh
Especialy concidering the fact that more than half things he was complaining about was not "bad game desing" as he try to imply ... but reactions for his poor decisions. laugh

The most funny was the one with Illithid who eated his brain ...
The man literally complained a few paragraphs back about how much he didn't like the game pitting us against such powerful creatures as Illithids from the start ... and he wouldn't forget to point out that the average illithid would smudge our gang like a fly.
And then he meets one in the wreckage of a ship, and his only thought is: Hey, let's talk to him! laugh That was pure gold. laugh laugh laugh
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 04/07/21 05:26 PM
I will say, those who tend to really bash this game don't play it through enough to realize all the little clues and hints and such all throughout the game. This is a game you can't just play through once to understand it all. You have to play it many times to fully begin to grasp the story as a whole. That's what I love most about it.

I don't like evil playthroughs, but I enjoyed this one because I learned a ton more when I did. That's just one example.
Posted By: Blackheifer Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 04/07/21 05:43 PM
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
When i remember my first gameplay i was also all the time like "wtf?" and "why is this happening?" and he seem almost as lost as i was ...
Now ... seeing all those missed opourtunities, just bcs the was as close minded as i was back then ... unable to think outside his little box ... i simply feel almost sory for him. laugh
Especialy concidering the fact that more than half things he was complaining about was not "bad game desing" as he try to imply ... but reactions for his poor decisions. laugh

The most funny was the one with Illithid who eated his brain ...
The man literally complained a few paragraphs back about how much he didn't like the game pitting us against such powerful creatures as Illithids from the start ... and he wouldn't forget to point out that the average illithid would smudge our gang like a fly.
And then he meets one in the wreckage of a ship, and his only thought is: Hey, let's talk to him! laugh That was pure gold. laugh laugh laugh

Exactly this. I love games that demand that you pay attention and think about your choices. Sure, you CAN talk to the Illithid - doesn't mean SHOULD - you can also just walk up and smash it with a weapon. No checks needed on that.

And of course I also have talked to it and I paid the price for it. It was such a good lesson that I wasn't even mad that I got my brain et and had to reload. I was laughing.


Originally Posted by GM4Him
I will say, those who tend to really bash this game don't play it through enough to realize all the little clues and hints and such all throughout the game. This is a game you can't just play through once to understand it all. You have to play it many times to fully begin to grasp the story as a whole. That's what I love most about it.

I don't like evil playthroughs, but I enjoyed this one because I learned a ton more when I did. That's just one example.

Yeah I am at hundreds of hours and I am still finding new stuff and making new realizations. A single 30 hour playthrough even won't cut it. The level of detail and options is staggering. Criticism of the gameplay systems aside this game is a work of Art to me.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 04/07/21 06:46 PM
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
And of course I also have talked to it and I paid the price for it. It was such a good lesson that I wasn't even mad that I got my brain et and had to reload. I was laughing.
Fun fact:
As far as i know (i didnt try yet ... but will after patch) you should be totally able to save yourself even if you choose to talk with Illithid ...
And maye even if you decide to try diceroll, and fail it. laugh
All you need to do is fast switch to another party member, and simply kill the illithid before it kills you. laugh
Posted By: Kryldost Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 04/07/21 08:49 PM
I am very excited for the new patch! Thanks for EA I truly appreciate that! I can't wait to see what's being added smile Been wanting to play but was waiting for a new patch laugh
Posted By: Niara Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 05/07/21 02:17 AM
Er, I don't know about you guys but I consider that yes, this scenario:

"Here is a source of information, suitably weakened to the point that you might have an edge to deal with it!"

- You get the full reward if you skip the content and kill it using base game mechanics outside of any interaction
- If you do engage and interact, you have to make at least one save... and if you fail that save, you get a Game Over (most likely)!

Yes, indeed, that IS bad game design. It's terrible game design. It's inviting players to engage with your content, rewarding them for not doing so, and brutally punishing them for trying to with a complete reset - so that they must either skip the content, and get the reward externally, or they must save scum and reload UNTIL they pass the game-over save and can continue.

That's Bad Design.
Posted By: Blackheifer Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 05/07/21 03:41 AM
Originally Posted by Niara
Er, I don't know about you guys but I consider that yes, this scenario:

"Here is a source of information, suitably weakened to the point that you might have an edge to deal with it!"

- You get the full reward if you skip the content and kill it using base game mechanics outside of any interaction
- If you do engage and interact, you have to make at least one save... and if you fail that save, you get a Game Over (most likely)!

Yes, indeed, that IS bad game design. It's terrible game design. It's inviting players to engage with your content, rewarding them for not doing so, and brutally punishing them for trying to with a complete reset - so that they must either skip the content, and get the reward externally, or they must save scum and reload UNTIL they pass the game-over save and can continue.

That's Bad Design.

In some cases I would agree with you, and there are obvious cases where using barrelmancy which you aptly demonstrated, can allow you to simply bypass all encounters and conflict.

In this isolated case it simply subverts expected RPG behavior (TALK TO ALL THE THINGS) by placing you into a fraught situation if you do so. The game in this case warns you about the encounter you are facing, and you have an interaction with the Illithid Thralls first who demonstrate that they are mind-controlled due to their interaction.

However you resolve things with the thralls you now have the option of engaging directly with an entity that has demonstrated the ability to use manipulation and powerful psionic mind-control abilities to cause harm OR you can smash it's brains open with a rock/sword/whatever.

The Illithid obviously wants you to engage directly. So given the way this is set up and the nuance around it I would reject that this qualifies as bad design.

AS a DM I would love to give players this scenario to deal with, and I think it works much better that way since the Illithid can only engage with one person at a time using its mind-control ability. It gives the other players a chance to notice what is happening and then they can take action if they see their companion getting taken over.
Posted By: Alyssa_Fox Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 05/07/21 05:31 AM
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
The most funny was the one with Illithid who eated his brain ...
The man literally complained a few paragraphs back about how much he didn't like the game pitting us against such powerful creatures as Illithids from the start ... and he wouldn't forget to point out that the average illithid would smudge our gang like a fly.
And then he meets one in the wreckage of a ship, and his only thought is: Hey, let's talk to him! laugh That was pure gold. laugh laugh laugh

He also complained how difficult it is to persuade the fishermen and that he was forced to kill them. You can actually kill the illithid during combat and the fight stops then.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 05/07/21 05:33 AM
Originally Posted by Alyssa_Fox
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
The most funny was the one with Illithid who eated his brain ...
The man literally complained a few paragraphs back about how much he didn't like the game pitting us against such powerful creatures as Illithids from the start ... and he wouldn't forget to point out that the average illithid would smudge our gang like a fly.
And then he meets one in the wreckage of a ship, and his only thought is: Hey, let's talk to him! laugh That was pure gold. laugh laugh laugh

He also complained how difficult it is to persuade the fishermen and that he was forced to kill them. You can actually kill the illithid during combat and the fight stops then.
Yup ...
Or he can simply knock them off, instead of killing them. smile
Posted By: Maximuuus Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 05/07/21 05:52 AM
That's something you know because you habe played the game multiple times.
The first time I (and I guess many others) just killed the fisherman. Which is not really a problem.
Posted By: Niara Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 05/07/21 05:55 AM
Again, I say: It's showing you content, then actively punishing you with a "reset and reload until you succeed" dead end if you choose to actually pursue it, while giving you full rewards for ignoring the content and killing it without engaging. The "Best" solution is to ENTIRELY skip, ALL the content placed here, and to walk up to the Illithid and Ctrl-click it (external to situation game mechanic), without ever even talking to the fishers. This yields the best and most optimum outcome, with zero risk of punishment or failure. Defend it how you like: it's objectively a failure of design. Context is literally irrelevant in the face of these facts.

In talking about how you'd love to do it as a DM you're also highlighting an additional design failure - Everyone else just stands there and watches you feed your head to the Illithid and does absolutely nothing, and there are no options or prompts for them to do anything, in any way.

They give you this situation - an entity that knows literally everything about your situation, why you're in it, and what's been done to you - and given him to you in a severely weakened, crippled and dying state. Yes, they've illustrated that he's dangerous - that doesn't change the fact that what is being presented is an opportunity that a reasonable player could expect to turn to their advantage in some small way. Except, you can't, and you're punished for trying at all, and rewarded for not doing so.

Here's what would stop it from being a failed design:

- If the checks involved were not multi-tiered all-failstate checks. That's garbage design to begin with.
- If succeeding in your efforts won you something of value (information that could lead to further dialogues, perhaps, or something nearby that the Illithid had hoped to find in the wreckage that would have helped him and can now help you, maybe).
- If failing in your efforts put your party into combat. The failing player is stunned/charmed, the others can roll initiative and react, The player, on their turn, will 'help' the Illithid, who stands, and the Illithid, once helped and on his own turn will use devour brain on the victim character (auto success at that point). The party have until that happens to either remove the player from the scene or break the effect, or stop the ilithid, and it's only if they don't do one of these things that he grains his full health, kills the player and wipes the party.

Now you have a situation that promises a reward for risk, delivers something of value if it is chanced and succeeded at, leads to danger and consequence for failure, and actively engages the players to win over the situation by their own choices. It can lead to a party wipe on extreme failure or poor choice making, but still allows the players to experience the content, even on partial failure, and come out alive, albeit without the value they had hoped to gain from the risk.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 05/07/21 06:09 AM
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
That's something you know because you habe played the game multiple times.
That was the point ...
Why people should not write rewiev after single gameplay. :-/
Posted By: Alyssa_Fox Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 05/07/21 06:18 AM
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
That's something you know because you habe played the game multiple times.
The first time I (and I guess many others) just killed the fisherman. Which is not really a problem.
I did it on my first playthrough. I mean it's sorta obvious, you have a fight with puppets and puppet master, every time I get that kind of fight in an RPG I focus puppet master first.
Posted By: Blackheifer Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 05/07/21 06:33 AM
Originally Posted by Niara
Again, I say: It's showing you content, then actively punishing you with a "reset and reload until you succeed" dead end if you choose to actually pursue it, while giving you full rewards for ignoring the content and killing it without engaging. The "Best" solution is to ENTIRELY skip, ALL the content placed here, and to walk up to the Illithid and Ctrl-click it (external to situation game mechanic), without ever even talking to the fishers. This yields the best and most optimum outcome, with zero risk of punishment or failure. Defend it how you like: it's objectively a failure of design. Context is literally irrelevant in the face of these facts.

The narration and activity draws you to this situation. Specifically to the fisherman digging the Illithid out - and you interact with them first. You are welcome to ignore it, interact with it or just attack everyone. Its an RPG.

In a way I see this initial encounter as a way of training the player to think carefully about the scenarios presented. This isn't Diablo. There are real dangers and it's important to not take things for granted.

Originally Posted by Niara
In talking about how you'd love to do it as a DM you're also highlighting an additional design failure - Everyone else just stands there and watches you feed your head to the Illithid and does absolutely nothing, and there are no options or prompts for them to do anything, in any way.

You do know you can switch to another character in your party and then smash the Illithids head in right? And you can do it during a conversation. In a sense you are complaining that you didn't do anything to intercede. You should have a word with yourself about that when you get a moment. ;D

In multiplayer I have had other players roll up to me when I was talking to the Mindflayer and kill it - "Why you talkin' to that? You knows its an A-hole!" -Actual Quote

Originally Posted by Niara
They give you this situation - an entity that knows literally everything about your situation, why you're in it, and what's been done to you - and given him to you in a severely weakened, crippled and dying state. Yes, they've illustrated that he's dangerous - that doesn't change the fact that what is being presented is an opportunity that a reasonable player could expect to turn to their advantage in some small way. Except, you can't, and you're punished for trying at all, and rewarded for not doing so.

I can't speak to this as you are the person that defines what a 'punishment' and a 'reward' happens to be. I do not see it this way. Sure maybe it knows something. Maybe it's the Illithid Janitor and it doesn't. You know its dangerous and you may gain nothing from interacting with it. You can survive talking to it but you gain no insight. Its just an opportunity. Is it a bit of a tease? Sure, but that's actually a valid way to challenge players.



Originally Posted by Niara
Here's what would stop it from being a failed design:

- If the checks involved were not multi-tiered all-failstate checks. That's garbage design to begin with.

I don't know what this means, can you clarify and provide examples?

Originally Posted by Niara
- If succeeding in your efforts won you something of value (information that could lead to further dialogues, perhaps, or something nearby that the Illithid had hoped to find in the wreckage that would have helped him and can now help you, maybe).

So the encounter does not have value because you didn't gain any information from it? Isn't a direct demonstration of the insidious nature of Mindflayers and how they operate useful and valuable? I think to a new player especially this is a good lesson.

Originally Posted by Niara
- If failing in your efforts put your party into combat. The failing player is stunned/charmed, the others can roll initiative and react, The player, on their turn, will 'help' the Illithid, who stands, and the Illithid, once helped and on his own turn will use devour brain on the victim character (auto success at that point). The party have until that happens to either remove the player from the scene or break the effect, or stop the ilithid, and it's only if they don't do one of these things that he grains his full health, kills the player and wipes the party.

Yeah, sure, that's another way it could be handled. You are welcome to mod that in. I think its fine the way it is. I don't think that's proof of bad design by any means in the current encounter.

Originally Posted by Niara
Now you have a situation that promises a reward for risk, delivers something of value if it is chanced and succeeded at, leads to danger and consequence for failure, and actively engages the players to win over the situation by their own choices. It can lead to a party wipe on extreme failure or poor choice making, but still allows the players to experience the content, even on partial failure, and come out alive, albeit without the value they had hoped to gain from the risk.

Obviously this encounter really disappoints you. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I don't agree on your assessment and think its a worthwhile encounter that accomplishes clear objectives and allows for multiple paths of resolution. Maybe it will get re-worked in the final version though. *shrug*
Posted By: Gray Ghost Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 05/07/21 07:27 AM
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
Originally Posted by Niara
In talking about how you'd love to do it as a DM you're also highlighting an additional design failure - Everyone else just stands there and watches you feed your head to the Illithid and does absolutely nothing, and there are no options or prompts for them to do anything, in any way.

You do know you can switch to another character in your party and then smash the Illithids head in right? And you can do it during a conversation. In a sense you are complaining that you didn't do anything to intercede. You should have a word with yourself about that when you get a moment. ;D

In multiplayer I have had other players roll up to me when I was talking to the Mindflayer and kill it - "Why you talkin' to that? You knows its an A-hole!" -Actual Quote

I don't know how I feel about the entire encounter on principle and you both make pretty good arguments, though I think I lean a bit more towards Niara's side, especially regarding the requirement of multiple checks. But I will also point out that "you can control your companions even during conversations" is not an excuse here. Firstly, the game never really tells you that you can do that, and it is such an unusual game mechanic in crpgs that I wouldn't be surprised if most players don't figure it out until long after that encounter, I certainly didn't. Furthermore, your companions are still characters that should have some degree of reaction to what you as the player are doing. You shouldn't expect them to just stand around and watch you feed yourself to the mindflayer. They should have some sort of reaction because they are right there.
Posted By: TomReneth Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 05/07/21 07:33 AM
Originally Posted by Absalom
Originally Posted by Bufotenina
Said that I hope that with this patch they start to unlock new areas being one who gets easily annoyed and bored I stopped playing after the third patch because I know all the dialogues, all the routes, all the quests.

That would be my wish as well. I hear many asking for Level 5 but that is of little use. How many encounters are you going to have at that tier? 3? 4? Give me new areas to explore even if I'm a bit underpowered for the fights, I'll figure a way to win even if it means being cheesy with barrels.
The last area seems fine for lvl 5, both with the monsters we fight and the amount of exp we can get prior.

The most important thing about implementing lvl 5, however, is that it is the first major powerbump for characters. Almost every class increase their combat abilities drastically. So if Larian wants to use player data to balance encounters, seeing what we are capable of at lvl 5 is probably a good idea.

If you do most content above ground, one should reliably be at or close to lvl 5 for the final area of te EA. So if they balance it around everyone being lvl 4, it will likely end up being on the easy side when the game releases.

There is also the fun factor. 3rd lvl spells and multiattack are fun to play with.



I'd also like to see Rogues treated better. Give it back their Expertise and change Sneak Attack to be automatic or a toggle, instead of it being a declared attack. And please add Booming and Greenfire Blade.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 05/07/21 07:58 AM
Originally Posted by Niara
The "Best" solution is to ENTIRELY skip, ALL the content placed here, and to walk up to the Illithid and Ctrl-click it (external to situation game mechanic), without ever even talking to the fishers.
"Best" is relative therm here ...
You dont get any additional reward, except for inspiration point ... wich you get for killing the illithid, no matter when, or how you do it ... not for skiping the conversation.
If you would say faster, i would agree ... but best?

What is better about this compared to scenario, where you talk to them and find out what is happening .. and THEN you kill the illithid? O_o
In your "best" solution, you missed small part of content ...

What is better about this compared to scenario, where you kill those fishermans, bcs you acutaly dont care about them at all .. and THEN once again you kill the illithid (still no matter if you do that imediatly, or sucess your throws) ?
In your "best" solution, you missed content, small bunch of XP and some loot ...
(of you can knock them out ... if you are willing to sacrifice those XP, but still want loot)

So i simply have to ask:
What makes it so "best" anyway? O_o

Originally Posted by Niara
Defend it how you like: it's objectively a failure of design. Context is literally irrelevant in the face of these facts.
What facts? laugh
All i see is you stating "its best" that is not facts, that is simple stating opinion ... not even very vell. :-/

Design is ment to teach you that this adventure is not all fun and games, sun and rainbows, smiles and laugh ... and you should THINK before you DO ...
In my opinion, its working perfectly ... even tho lesson might seem a little too harsh to some.

Originally Posted by Niara
In talking about how you'd love to do it as a DM you're also highlighting an additional design failure - Everyone else just stands there and watches you feed your head to the Illithid and does absolutely nothing, and there are no options or prompts for them to do anything, in any way.
Wrong ...
There are options, you just need to search them actively ... instead of simply expect the game to guide you step by step ... this is not tutorial anymore. O_o

(i shall instert video here, when it will be uploaded ... youtube is somehow stubborn today. -_-)
//edit: Finaly laugh


The problem here is that your companions are not independent entities anymore ...
YOU are in control ... that means, if you want THEM to do something, YOU must be the one who will do it. laugh

But as you can see, options are right there. wink
BTW the same approach works for Astarion aswell ... i only hope that there will be some restrain, wake up and question ... options for kocked out enemies.
Otherwise i would have to kill him almost every single time. smile

Originally Posted by Niara
They give you this situation - an entity that knows literally everything about your situation, why you're in it, and what's been done to you - and given him to you in a severely weakened, crippled and dying state. Yes, they've illustrated that he's dangerous - that doesn't change the fact that what is being presented is an opportunity that a reasonable player could expect to turn to their advantage in some small way. Except, you can't, and you're punished for trying at all, and rewarded for not doing so.
An entity that knows litteraly everything about your situation ... yes ...

Yet the entity, that have litteraly zero reason to anyhow help you ...
Yet the entity, that while you were fighting those 3 people it allready controlled, tryed to control you aswell ...
Yet the entity, that bcs of your fight, just lost 3 other people it was controlling ... and therefore logicaly can focus on controling you much more ...
And finaly, yet the entity, that game multiple times (once in this very conversation ... right before you made your choice to either break free, or risk your chances) warns you that it wants only use you, and eat you. laugh

That is the point ...
Situation SHOULD look, as something you could expect to tunr to your advantage ...
Im surprised you expect it to look differently ... do you oftem place neon sign "WARNING! There is trap right here!" abowe your traps? laugh

Originally Posted by Niara
- If the checks involved were not multi-tiered all-failstate checks. That's garbage design to begin with.
I dont even understand this sentence ...

Originally Posted by Niara
- If succeeding in your efforts won you something of value (information that could lead to further dialogues, perhaps, or something nearby that the Illithid had hoped to find in the wreckage that would have helped him and can now help you, maybe).
You failed for a trap, and yet want reward?
That is what i would call garbage design. laugh

The illithid didnt hope to find anything ... maybe except those fishermans (aka anyone who would set him free, and possibly prowide snack after). laugh
He was simply inside, when ship crushed. O_o
And he was pinned down, since some parts have fall on him.

Originally Posted by Niara
- If failing in your efforts put your party into combat. The failing player is stunned/charmed, the others can roll initiative and react, The player, on their turn, will 'help' the Illithid, who stands, and the Illithid, once helped and on his own turn will use devour brain on the victim character (auto success at that point). The party have until that happens to either remove the player from the scene or break the effect, or stop the ilithid, and it's only if they don't do one of these things that he grains his full health, kills the player and wipes the party.
As you can see in that video i recorded for you ... you can do all that, if you choose to. O_o
I HONESTLY wonder why (rethorical question, ofcourse) that review autor choosed to click on certain death option instead ... and then was mad about that his character ended up dead. laugh laugh laugh

I wonder if there is any mind control breaking spell (simmilar to protect from good and evil) ...
So we can actualy save fishermans.
But since it didnt have any effect, when i used that spell (protection from good and evil) on mask-wearing thralls of Hag, im not even sure if that would work. frown
(btw using that spell DO protect PC againts magic in that mask ... that is why i expected it to work the same for NPCs)

Originally Posted by Niara
Now you have a situation that promises a reward for risk, delivers something of value if it is chanced and succeeded at, leads to danger and consequence for failure, and actively engages the players to win over the situation by their own choices. It can lead to a party wipe on extreme failure or poor choice making, but still allows the players to experience the content, even on partial failure, and come out alive, albeit without the value they had hoped to gain from the risk.
Well, Swen specificly told us to "thrust the dices, even if you loose" ... in one of last interviews before whole EA even started ...
I gues he decided to give us harsh lesson. smile

All you want to add there is failsafe, in the case that everything will goes completely wrong ...
But that would compeltely destroy the whole point. :-/

Right now it is: You made your choose, and you choosed badly ... now suffer the consequences.

In your design it would be: You made your choose, and you choosed badly ... but here, let me give you YET ANOTHER chance, even if you ignored all those warnings i gived you before ... and if you will ignore this one aswell, i shall be very sad about you ... wich is your punishment by the way.

Funny enough, i had the very same situation in my last tabletop session ... we get to classic Indiana Jones and invisible bridge situation ... we were suppose to proove our thrust by cross the abyss, but our Wizard decided to levitate instead of steping into the void ...
DM decided that she did not proove her thrust, and therefore the invisible bridge unmaterialized for her ... when her levitation ended, she begin to fall ... and now:
DM: Dont you want to reactivate it and get up?
Wizard: No.
DM: Really?
Wizard: No.
DM: You keep falling into the abyss ... all you can see is the edge more and more distant.
DM: Dont you want to reactivate it and get up?
Wizard: No.
DM: Im trying hard to hint you here ... so: REALLY?
Wizard: Oh ... okay, i levitate back up and try to cross the bridge on foot.
DM: You crossed the bridge safely, as the rest of the group did before you.

Funny story, but not exactly great desing if you ask me. :-/
Posted By: Gray Ghost Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 05/07/21 10:03 AM
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by Niara
- If the checks involved were not multi-tiered all-failstate checks. That's garbage design to begin with.
I dont even understand this sentence ...

I think what Niara's trying to say here is that they have a problem with the encounter having multiple dice checks that can each individually lead to your character's death. I for one agree that this is bad design but since it's been a while since I played through this encounter and don't really remember it well, I can't confirm if this is an accurate assessment.

Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by Niara
In talking about how you'd love to do it as a DM you're also highlighting an additional design failure - Everyone else just stands there and watches you feed your head to the Illithid and does absolutely nothing, and there are no options or prompts for them to do anything, in any way.
Wrong ...
There are options, you just need to search them actively ... instead of simply expect the game to guide you step by step ... this is not tutorial anymore. O_o

(i shall instert video here, when it will be uploaded ... youtube is somehow stubborn today. -_-)

The problem here is that your companions are not independent entities anymore ...
YOU are in control ... that means, if you want THEM to do something, YOU must be the one who will do it. laugh

But as you can see, options are right there. wink

You make a lot of good arguments here but this one I still can't agree with. Especially the one about companions not being independant entities. They very much are, at least as much as any companion in any crpg. They can still make choices you don't control, initiate dialogues, make judgements on your actions, etc. A significant part of the game will consist of their character stories, which will require them doing things outside of your control, such as Asterion secretly killing animals for blood.

As a more in-depth example, at the encounter with the Gith patrol, Lae'zel will turn to your character and and seek a prompt from them for how to talk to the patrol. You're not expected to directly take control of her, and I would argue that such an option actually makes *less* sense than any of your companions stopping you from gettingn eaten by the mindflayer. What with the fact that if it got to eat, it would presumably regain some amount of strength and be able to be a greater threat to them, so killing the thing would be in their best interest. My point though is that I don't think you can argue that the companions are no longer independant and shouldn't be expected to act independently when they act independently all the time, up to and including speaking up for themselves in dialogues.

And one final thing, the game never teaches you that you can select other characters outside of combat (unless they started doing that in patch 4, I could have missed that). I'm being lenient on this point though since while I think we should judge Early Access on its own terms, I also accept that it only makes sense for tutorials to be among the last things added since they have to finalize all the content and stuff first.


Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Funny enough, i had the very same situation in my last tabletop session ... we get to classic Indiana Jones and invisible bridge situation ... we were suppose to proove our thrust by cross the abyss, but our Wizard decided to levitate instead of steping into the void ...
DM decided that she did not proove her thrust, and therefore the invisible bridge unmaterialized for her ... when her levitation ended, she begin to fall ... and now:
DM: Dont you want to reactivate it and get up?
Wizard: No.
DM: Really?
Wizard: No.
DM: You keep falling into the abyss ... all you can see is the edge more and more distant.
DM: Dont you want to reactivate it and get up?
Wizard: No.
DM: Im trying hard to hint you here ... so: REALLY?
Wizard: Oh ... okay, i levitate back up and try to cross the bridge on foot.
DM: You crossed the bridge safely, as the rest of the group did before you.

Funny story, but not exactly great desing if you ask me. :-/

Also I think that your DM's choice is perfectly valid from a storytelling perspective. People differ and it ultimately comes down to what the players at the table want, but I personally believe that part of a DM's job should be steering players away from dumb, unsatisfying outcomes. If the player wanted their character to face the consequences of their actions then fine, if in-character there was no way to avoid the fall, then fine. But if the character could still cast levitate and carry on then to have them die from not doing it would to me seem pointless and unsatisfying, and I wouldn't let my player do that unless they understood that that was what was happening. So as far as story design, helping a player make an in-character choice that makes sense feels like good design to me. But like I said, that's just my philosophy when it comes to DMing.
Posted By: Nyloth Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 05/07/21 12:53 PM
Originally Posted by Niara
In talking about how you'd love to do it as a DM you're also highlighting an additional design failure - Everyone else just stands there and watches you feed your head to the Illithid and does absolutely nothing, and there are no options or prompts for them to do anything, in any way.

In fact, this is not true. If you start to "succumb" to the monster, then one of the companions will tell you "what are you doing, you idiot! get away from him!", in my case it was Astarion (I do not know what others say). And at this moment you still have a chance to move away from the monster. Yes, they don't kill him, but they don't "just look" either.

I've never died in this scene, never! Yes, I killed fishermen, or one of them, but die by monster? It is necessary to purposefully want it or be not very smart. At an early stage, it is clear that the creature can control you, game give you THREE CHANCES TO CHANGE your MIND. THREE WHOLE CHANCES. even npc tell you 'stop you're dumb!!!' and you still do it? You can safely interact with the monster and not die. Because you have three chances to leave. In this scene, everything is fine with game design, but you can argue about the logical thinking of some players.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 05/07/21 01:26 PM
Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
I think what Niara's trying to say here is that they have a problem with the encounter having multiple dice checks that can each individually lead to your character's death. I for one agree that this is bad design but since it's been a while since I played through this encounter and don't really remember it well, I can't confirm if this is an accurate assessment.
It would be bad desing ...

But if you check the video i posted, you can notice that all other checks are actualy your rescue anchors:
- First check (Int) > risking peer into Mind Flaers thoughts ... aka. trap.
(The other option here is free yourself ... from the way it is written, it is clear clue from DM what you should do in his opinion ... there is even no check, its clear route to safety)
- Second check (Wisdom) > chance for you to save yourself, since you decided to risk ... and it didnt work wery well for you.
(other option is not the check ... its embracing your fault, its not your thought btw ... you are controlled)
- Third check (Wisdom) > again, change to save yourself ...
(again other option in embracing your fault ... since same as in previous option, you are allready controlled)

And note that in litteraly any part of this process you can both cast guidance to boost your chances to save yourself ... or simply smash its squishy head, to make it sure. laugh
Therefore i claim that if anyone dies in this particular scenario ... the only one he can blame is himself. laugh

Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
You make a lot of good arguments here but this one I still can't agree with. Especially the one about companions not being independant entities. They very much are, at least as much as any companion in any crpg. They can still make choices you don't control, initiate dialogues, make judgements on your actions, etc. A significant part of the game will consist of their character stories, which will require them doing things outside of your control, such as Asterion secretly killing animals for blood.
There is missunderstanding ...
I was talking about this particular moment ...

Sure, they could have some action (read as: sentence) of their own ...
And as we can see in that video i posted, Shadowheart specificly told my Tiefling "Get Away from that thing!" (without voice tho, so i gues it was some unfinished stuff, or glith ... or i managed to bug it when i switched them) ...

My point is that active companions in your conversations dont simply go and save your skin automaticly, that is simply not how it works ... you control them, you are suppose to do that.
Yes, im aware that they can and do coment your actions, make judgements, or do some "out of screen" activities ... so they seem more alive ... but that is entirely different story. smile

Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
As a more in-depth example, at the encounter with the Gith patrol, Lae'zel will turn to your character and and seek a prompt from them for how to talk to the patrol. You're not expected to directly take control of her, and I would argue that such an option actually makes *less* sense than any of your companions stopping you from gettingn eaten by the mindflayer. What with the fact that if it got to eat, it would presumably regain some amount of strength and be able to be a greater threat to them, so killing the thing would be in their best interest. My point though is that I don't think you can argue that the companions are no longer independant and shouldn't be expected to act independently when they act independently all the time, up to and including speaking up for themselves in dialogues.
To be completely honest i would like take direct control much more ... Lae'zel dont seem like somebody who would ask for your permision, or guidance ... she KNOWS what she is suppose to do, and therefore she do it. After all, you are lesser creature, unless you are also Gith ... and even then, she obviously conciders you to be beneath her, since she keeps lecturing you. laugh
Therefore taking direct control would seem much more immersive to me, so i kinda hope that this particular part of that conversation is actualy just a placeholder.

As for the rest ...
That is again different situation, Lae'zel leave your party and sprint to her kin before conversation even started, and even then she acts only as a interpeter of your party ... if she would suppose to work the same way in situation we discuised, she would have to kill the Ghaik before you even start talking to it. laugh
And once again ... all do Lae'zel is forward(?) your Main charaters decisions, she dont actualy act by her own, if you think about it.

Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
And one final thing, the game never teaches you that you can select other characters outside of combat (unless they started doing that in patch 4, I could have missed that). I'm being lenient on this point though since while I think we should judge Early Access on its own terms, I also accept that it only makes sense for tutorials to be among the last things added since they have to finalize all the content and stuff first.
Honestly i dont know ... i didnt read litteraly even single tutorial message, since im precisely that kind of smug (insert insult here) ... who presumes he will figure things out later, and then he panic when he dont know how to do something. laugh
Maybe that saved me, since i was really curious about what those buttons do. smile

But dont get me wrong, when i talked with that Illithid for second (since i passed wisdom check first time laugh ... also i was curious what will happen) time, i died too. smile
I believe its just matter of point of view ... i see there nicely done trap, someone else see there bad desing. laugh

Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
Also I think that your DM's choice is perfectly valid from a storytelling perspective. People differ and it ultimately comes down to what the players at the table want, but I personally believe that part of a DM's job should be steering players away from dumb, unsatisfying outcomes. If the player wanted their character to face the consequences of their actions then fine, if in-character there was no way to avoid the fall, then fine. But if the character could still cast levitate and carry on then to have them die from not doing it would to me seem pointless and unsatisfying, and I wouldn't let my player do that unless they understood that that was what was happening. So as far as story design, helping a player make an in-character choice that makes sense feels like good design to me. But like I said, that's just my philosophy when it comes to DMing.
Well yes ...
Maybe that wasnt so clear as i believed, my point was that there should be allways only certain amount of warnings, before player have to suffer consequences of ignoring them all ... and i believe you had enough of them here. smile

The example i write was only for fun, and we had fun in tabletop ...
In PC game, we have autosaves and quick saves for the same purpose. smile
Therefore i dont see any "upgrade" in adding another few chances to save yourself ... its just polonging the inevitable.
Posted By: Tuco Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 05/07/21 01:36 PM
I don't think Niara is making a bad argument in general, if applied to other moments during the EA, but I think the fishermen/mind flayer encounter is a very bad example to hold on to as casus belli, because it's way more forgiving of what she's giving it credit to be.
In fact, all the way through the scene there's one single path leading to your death as the single worst possible outcome but you are constantly offered options, both in dialogue and as practical actions, to avoid any danger and come off unharmed. Without even needing to rely on rolls.

The githyanki patrol would be a better example of Larian being a "mean, unfair DM".
Posted By: CJMPinger Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 05/07/21 02:32 PM
Personally, I think both sides are kinda right in this argument? BG3 has situations that makes sense and are rewarding for taking different approaches while also punishing in ways that make sense, and situations that are inherently unfair from a game perspective or lack a good core to make it make sense or have solutions that feel rewarding.

I personally felt the Illithid encounter showcases many different approaches with violence, breaking the villagers out of mind control and has a lose situation that makes sense.
The githyanki patrol feels like it only has two solutions and one of them is inherently unfair.
Posted By: Alyssa_Fox Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 05/07/21 03:02 PM
With githyanki you can give Laezel free reign, persuade her to lie, interrupt her and talk to githyanki yourself (which is kinda funny if you are not a githyanki, but disguise yourself with a spell). Or you can kill githyanki and Laezel. My only wish is that giving away the artifact had more meaningful result.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 05/07/21 03:06 PM
Originally Posted by Alyssa_Fox
My only wish is that giving away the artifact had more meaningful result.
You managed to give away the artifact? O_o
HOW?!

Every time i only mentioned it, they decided to kill me ... "swiftly as a reward". -_-
Posted By: Blackheifer Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 05/07/21 03:13 PM
I am 100% sure that the Githyanki encounter is going to get re-worked. Its got way too many problems and reactions that make little sense. Having the Dragon present breaks the encounter in so many ways and having the Kith'rak just leave instead of making sure the encounter - with the people who have the thing he was sent by Vlaakith to get - are properly taken care of is bewildering.

As many people have pointed out its a highly problematic encounter. Call it bad design but I think it would be more accurate to say it's simply unfinished.
Posted By: CJMPinger Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 05/07/21 03:13 PM
Maybe control Shadowheart when initiating the convo? IDK, I'd like to know too
Posted By: kanisatha Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 05/07/21 04:07 PM
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
Here is some bad press for you guys to get excited over.

https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2020...s-mediocre-rpg-amazing-rendering-engine/

Personally I don't think anyone cares what Ars Technica thinks about Video Games. I didn't even KNOW they reviewed games.

Anyway, but yeah, most press has been cautiously optimistic about this game.

The user base discussion is a different story. I think the upcoming Twitch thing will give us some good reactions on what people think.
Well for me Ars Technica is one of the better video game news sites out there, and especially as compared with such garbage sites as RPS.
Posted By: EvilVik Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 05/07/21 04:36 PM
Best trap in the game: let Volo perform eye surgery on you 😂
Posted By: CJMPinger Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 05/07/21 04:45 PM
Originally Posted by EvilVik
Best trap in the game: let Volo perform eye surgery on you 😂

I mean, IF you know anything about Volo...
Though I think BG3 tried to show that he could have removed it if it was a normal tadpole, but things are different. Like with good ol Auntie.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 05/07/21 08:42 PM
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
I am 100% sure that the Githyanki encounter is going to get re-worked. Its got way too many problems and reactions that make little sense. Having the Dragon present breaks the encounter in so many ways and having the Kith'rak just leave instead of making sure the encounter - with the people who have the thing he was sent by Vlaakith to get - are properly taken care of is bewildering.

As many people have pointed out its a highly problematic encounter. Call it bad design but I think it would be more accurate to say it's simply unfinished.

You know, I was having the same issue with this encounter. "Lae'zel, what is our mandate. To get the weapon. Wait! You were on the ship? Ah. You must have the weapon because no one else got off that ship AND we must kill you now. Dragon, kill them and take it...I...wait what? Oh, we have to leave to tell everyone we have found the item. Hmmm. Oh well. I know its our mandate and all and my dragon could just kill them all in a moment and take it, but... SEE YA"
Posted By: The Composer Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 05/07/21 11:22 PM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
I am 100% sure that the Githyanki encounter is going to get re-worked. Its got way too many problems and reactions that make little sense. Having the Dragon present breaks the encounter in so many ways and having the Kith'rak just leave instead of making sure the encounter - with the people who have the thing he was sent by Vlaakith to get - are properly taken care of is bewildering.

As many people have pointed out its a highly problematic encounter. Call it bad design but I think it would be more accurate to say it's simply unfinished.

You know, I was having the same issue with this encounter. "Lae'zel, what is our mandate. To get the weapon. Wait! You were on the ship? Ah. You must have the weapon because no one else got off that ship AND we must kill you now. Dragon, kill them and take it...I...wait what? Oh, we have to leave to tell everyone we have found the item. Hmmm. Oh well. I know its our mandate and all and my dragon could just kill them all in a moment and take it, but... SEE YA"


Reminds me of Screen Rant's "Pitch Meeting" series!


Director: "And there's a dragon that blows the bridge up and looks really intimidating."
Publisher: "But why doesn't the dragon just turn the party into barbeque?"
Director: "Because the script says so."
Publisher: "Oh, ok! That's nice."

A bit later, in the hands of a minmaxer:

Publisher: "Aren't they going to struggle though?"
Director: "No, it's going to be super easy, barely an inconvenience!"
Posted By: Tuco Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 06/07/21 01:11 AM
Not that it really means anything, but just for the record I was checking an update Fextralife published on Youtube about how they are going to stream and comment this PFH 3 live:

Quote
Fextralife
19 hours ago (edited)
We'll be Co-Streaming the Panel From Hell III for Larian as they discuss the upcoming changes to Baldur's Gate 3 occurring with Update 5! The Livestream will take place on the 8th of July at 11 AM PST on our Twitch channel: https://www.twitch.tv/fextralife. You can also expect a patch notes summary here on YouTube immediately following the event, and you're going to love the changes!

It seems to imply that they are already aware of at least some of the changes being introduced and they also sound fairly happy about them.
Hope I'll be able to share the enthusiasm when they reveal them.
Posted By: CJMPinger Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 06/07/21 02:04 AM
That is giving me a bit more hope.
Posted By: avahZ Darkwood Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 06/07/21 02:24 AM
Prolly adding the rest of the soft core porn smirk
Posted By: Nobere Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 06/07/21 03:22 AM
Originally Posted by EvilVik
Best trap in the game: let Volo perform eye surgery on you 😂
I thought that it would be nifty if that could be used to get the hag-kissed eye out.
Posted By: virion Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 06/07/21 03:31 AM
Patch 5 notes leaked :

- The UI script will now work as intended. It will display the new UI for everyone and recognize tuco's PC to make extra sure he can still play around with Patch 4 UI. He seemed to like it.
Posted By: Nelemak Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 06/07/21 11:40 AM
Can we just get more areas to explore?

Oh and found an oddity. I uncovered Kaghas shadow affiliation and freed Halsin. Halsin was back in the grove and no one cared to have a look at my proof.

and a lil request, the cantrips like thaumaturgy and whatever it was called +1d4 to skills, they kinda need to be active at all times. If present. Or we can keep jumping out of discussions to cast spells. But it is a bit annoying.

Another weird thing. Stole the statue and gave it to the kids thief guild, then bought the artifact back. But the later dialogue indicated it was stolen. Like the kid has no idea she sold it 3 seonds earlier for a few gold coins? Also found no place to do anything with the evil moon-witch statue (owlbearcave) in the former evil moon-witch temple nowadays home of goblins.
Posted By: CJMPinger Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 06/07/21 01:13 PM
Originally Posted by virion
Patch 5 notes leaked :

- The UI script will now work as intended. It will display the new UI for everyone and recognize tuco's PC to make extra sure he can still play around with Patch 4 UI. He seemed to like it.

Something I am terrified about is that IF they actually read our comments, are there users they know by name because of how many times or what they've commented...?
Posted By: CJMPinger Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 06/07/21 01:14 PM
Originally Posted by Nelemak
Can we just get more areas to explore?

Oh and found an oddity. I uncovered Kaghas shadow affiliation and freed Halsin. Halsin was back in the grove and no one cared to have a look at my proof.

and a lil request, the cantrips like thaumaturgy and whatever it was called +1d4 to skills, they kinda need to be active at all times. If present. Or we can keep jumping out of discussions to cast spells. But it is a bit annoying.

Another weird thing. Stole the statue and gave it to the kids thief guild, then bought the artifact back. But the later dialogue indicated it was stolen. Like the kid has no idea she sold it 3 seonds earlier for a few gold coins? Also found no place to do anything with the evil moon-witch statue (owlbearcave) in the former evil moon-witch temple nowadays home of goblins.

I'd like it if we could activate it mid Conversation, BUT only can activate one in the middle. So it'd reward preparedness but we don't really have to exit at the same time.
Posted By: Don Bartenstein Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 06/07/21 01:42 PM
Originally Posted by CJMPinger
Originally Posted by virion
Patch 5 notes leaked :

- The UI script will now work as intended. It will display the new UI for everyone and recognize tuco's PC to make extra sure he can still play around with Patch 4 UI. He seemed to like it.

Something I am terrified about is that IF they actually read our comments, are there users they know by name because of how many times or what they've commented...?

In my past life in the Air Force as a developer, we had one end-user at our base (John) who had a habit of literally pounding the keys as typed, to the point of breaking his keyboards. We added a bit of code to send him a message about every half-hour "Please stop hitting me so hard John!"...... wink
Posted By: The Composer Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 06/07/21 02:06 PM
Originally Posted by CJMPinger
Originally Posted by virion
Patch 5 notes leaked :

- The UI script will now work as intended. It will display the new UI for everyone and recognize tuco's PC to make extra sure he can still play around with Patch 4 UI. He seemed to like it.

Something I am terrified about is that IF they actually read our comments, are there users they know by name because of how many times or what they've commented...?

Yes.

Be terrified smile
Posted By: kanisatha Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 06/07/21 02:16 PM
Originally Posted by CJMPinger
Originally Posted by virion
Patch 5 notes leaked :

- The UI script will now work as intended. It will display the new UI for everyone and recognize tuco's PC to make extra sure he can still play around with Patch 4 UI. He seemed to like it.

Something I am terrified about is that IF they actually read our comments, are there users they know by name because of how many times or what they've commented...?
I'd be perfectly fine, even happy, to be known within Larian circles as "that guy" wrt the things I want changed/improved in BG3. As I've said before, BG1 was my intro to cRPGs, and the BG franchise has a very special place in my heart. So I *want* to be able to love a game named BG3, and it kills me that thus far I cannot.
Posted By: Maximuuus Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 06/07/21 03:00 PM
Originally Posted by kanisatha
Originally Posted by CJMPinger
Originally Posted by virion
Patch 5 notes leaked :

- The UI script will now work as intended. It will display the new UI for everyone and recognize tuco's PC to make extra sure he can still play around with Patch 4 UI. He seemed to like it.

Something I am terrified about is that IF they actually read our comments, are there users they know by name because of how many times or what they've commented...?
I'd be perfectly fine, even happy, to be known within Larian circles as "that guy" wrt the things I want changed/improved in BG3. As I've said before, BG1 was my intro to cRPGs, and the BG franchise has a very special place in my heart. So I *want* to be able to love a game named BG3, and it kills me that thus far I cannot.

Stop dreaming, just like me you're blacklisted since march 2020 grin
Posted By: virion Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 06/07/21 03:15 PM
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Originally Posted by kanisatha
Originally Posted by CJMPinger
Originally Posted by virion
Patch 5 notes leaked :

- The UI script will now work as intended. It will display the new UI for everyone and recognize tuco's PC to make extra sure he can still play around with Patch 4 UI. He seemed to like it.

Something I am terrified about is that IF they actually read our comments, are there users they know by name because of how many times or what they've commented...?
I'd be perfectly fine, even happy, to be known within Larian circles as "that guy" wrt the things I want changed/improved in BG3. As I've said before, BG1 was my intro to cRPGs, and the BG franchise has a very special place in my heart. So I *want* to be able to love a game named BG3, and it kills me that thus far I cannot.

Stop dreaming, just like me you're blacklisted since march 2020 grin
I was about to say it. We are ALL soft banned at larian xD
Posted By: Nelemak Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 06/07/21 03:20 PM
Originally Posted by CJMPinger
Originally Posted by Nelemak
Can we just get more areas to explore?

Oh and found an oddity. I uncovered Kaghas shadow affiliation and freed Halsin. Halsin was back in the grove and no one cared to have a look at my proof.

and a lil request, the cantrips like thaumaturgy and whatever it was called +1d4 to skills, they kinda need to be active at all times. If present. Or we can keep jumping out of discussions to cast spells. But it is a bit annoying.

Another weird thing. Stole the statue and gave it to the kids thief guild, then bought the artifact back. But the later dialogue indicated it was stolen. Like the kid has no idea she sold it 3 seonds earlier for a few gold coins? Also found no place to do anything with the evil moon-witch statue (owlbearcave) in the former evil moon-witch temple nowadays home of goblins.

I'd like it if we could activate it mid Conversation, BUT only can activate one in the middle. So it'd reward preparedness but we don't really have to exit at the same time.

Well that is how we do it if we do it now. By choosing another person while in a conversation. Same lil buttons on the side as for initiating trade with non-traders.
And while using the other person, the other person can cast such spells on the person with a dialogue sticking out of them. Select the dialogue person and you are back in with the effct activated.
Posted By: Tuco Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 06/07/21 03:26 PM
Originally Posted by CJMPinger
Something I am terrified about is that IF they actually read our comments, are there users they know by name because of how many times or what they've commented...?
I doubt they pay too much attention to us to begin with, but if that's the case I'd be pretty much resigned to be EXTREMELY UNPOPULAR among Larian employees. At least generally speaking.

I'd like to stress that I take absolutely no pleasure in it and I just do it for the greater good.

[Linked Image from media0.giphy.com]
Posted By: qwerrecd42 Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 06/07/21 08:26 PM
yeah i don't particularly care if Larian employees like me/know me or not as long as my complaints get addressed
Posted By: Blackheifer Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 06/07/21 09:20 PM
Originally Posted by The Composer
Reminds me of Screen Rant's "Pitch Meeting" series!


Director: "And there's a dragon that blows the bridge up and looks really intimidating."
Publisher: "But why doesn't the dragon just turn the party into barbeque?"
Director: "Because the script says so."
Publisher: "Oh, ok! That's nice."

A bit later, in the hands of a minmaxer:

Publisher: "Aren't they going to struggle though?"
Director: "No, it's going to be super easy, barely an inconvenience!"

"Why are we doing that?"

"So the Movie can happen"

Ryan George is amazing. Never miss an episode.
Posted By: Uncle Lester Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 06/07/21 09:21 PM
Originally Posted by virion
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Originally Posted by kanisatha
Originally Posted by CJMPinger
Something I am terrified about is that IF they actually read our comments, are there users they know by name because of how many times or what they've commented...?
I'd be perfectly fine, even happy, to be known within Larian circles as "that guy" wrt the things I want changed/improved in BG3. As I've said before, BG1 was my intro to cRPGs, and the BG franchise has a very special place in my heart. So I *want* to be able to love a game named BG3, and it kills me that thus far I cannot.

Stop dreaming, just like me you're blacklisted since march 2020 grin
I was about to say it. We are ALL soft banned at larian xD

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Posted By: virion Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 06/07/21 11:21 PM
One of the titles on the beamdog BG3 forum : "BG3's revamped DOS2 game engine vs. Infinity is analogous to Realism vs Impressionism in painting?".

I think we kinda represent the lower end of BG3 discussions xD
Posted By: Blackheifer Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 07/07/21 12:00 AM
Originally Posted by virion
One of the titles on the beamdog BG3 forum : "BG3's revamped DOS2 game engine vs. Infinity is analogous to Realism vs Impressionism in painting?".

I think we kinda represent the lower end of BG3 discussions xD


I totally get what he means by that - and its not a criticism of Bg3. Some of the best games I have ever played could be described as Impressionist which left a lot to the imagination and did a great job. Notable titles are the original Wasteland, Fallout 1 and 2, Ultima IV, V, VI, VIII, of course all the Infinity Engine Games, Planescape: Torment and many others.


Having said that I love the BG3 landscapes and comparing them to paintings from the Realism school is pretty accurate. Also, this is not a function of graphics improving over time. Vanilla WoW was done in a style of realism and each tile was literally hand painted - which is one of the reasons its graphics have held up pretty well over time. Classic WoW ended up using pretty much the same textures and tiles with some slight modifications.

Art Directors I think make this conscious choice and there are advantages/drawbacks to each option.

Yeah I totally wish we had more discussions like this - haha - how is Beamdog attracting all the Aesthetes?
Posted By: Waltc Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 07/07/21 12:10 AM
While I'm glad to see that the principals have once again expired and gone to Hell, and that Swen will finish mowing Satan's lawn while the rest of the gang does Beelzebub's dirty laundry (because it's nice to see them doing something useful), I am most happy to see that this time, apparently, the mini-movie "From Hell They Came 2" will be released to the public at the same time that the patch goes live! That's a nice change, indeed, so I hope I got it right. (No more "Here's the movie, patch will be along RSN.")

Without trying to hit a negative note, I have to say that I distantly recall information from the last big patch--patch #4--indicating that (a) There would be no more 'big patches,' (b) There would instead be smaller patches released about every two weeks, and (c) There would be no more lost saves moving ahead. Please correct me if my memory has failed here...;)

I think it would be a nice gesture if Jess might like to say something like, "I know that we said yada, yada, yada, at patch 4, but I had to have a tumor the size of a large watermelon removed from my big toe, and Swen--well, Swen--Swen had a brain transplant just two weeks back and we are still waiting to see if the new brain took--nah, just kidding! It took as far as we can tell. And he told me I could tell you about it! So this is why we've had to change plans!" Etc.

I mean, just a little acknowledgement of the previous information given at patch #4 would have been nice. So all of us EA folks know we are not going mad.

Anyway, I had planned to start over after the next patch as I had a feeling it would be a whopper and I can see no point to forcing myself to use old saves that may force me to ignore some new content this patch possibly installs. So that's not a big deal for me, actually. So looking forward to what comes "next week"...;)
Posted By: virion Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 07/07/21 12:11 AM
Beamdog is the pre - bg3 forum and I guess people there might be older/ a bit more patient. And definitely more unified compared to us. Which isn't necessarily a good thing.
Posted By: Tuco Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 07/07/21 12:11 AM
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
Yeah I totally wish we had more discussions like this - haha - how is Beamdog attracting all the Aesthetes?
Beats me.
I have no idea how Beamdog would be able to attract anyone, period.

Also, I really don't think there's anything about the Infinity Engine titles that could genuinely be summarized as "impressionism" aesthetically. It's just a combination of low detail/poor image quality.
If we were talking about Disco Elysium it could hold some merit.

P.S. Fun fact: "impressionism" was originally intended as a somewhat derogatory descriptor. It came from an art critic commenting that a certain Monet painting (can't remember which one) left on him "little more than a vague impression" or something of that sort.
Posted By: Icelyn Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 07/07/21 12:46 AM
Originally Posted by Tuco
Also, I really don't think there's anything about the Infinity Engine titles that could genuinely be summarized as "impressionism" aesthetically. It's just a combination of low detail/poor image quality.
😂
Posted By: sublimeclown Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 07/07/21 12:54 AM
I wonder if we’ll be getting some info on Shadowheart’s artifact. The description for “A Most Noble Sacrifice” on the BG3 website includes a picture of it and mentions the party looking for a powerful artifact. Unfortunately it doesn’t look like anyone is roleplaying a Paladin but I’m still hopeful.
Posted By: Naginata Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 07/07/21 07:37 AM
I still hope that we will get more Classes und Level 5 smile
Posted By: Uncle Lester Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 07/07/21 08:16 AM
Speaking of Beamdog's forum, recently I came across a discussion regarding changes between 2AD&D and 5e.

Quote
[...]I've learned that Beamdog is about to start (or has already started) working on a new 5E BG-esque game[...]

Seems it never came to be. Iirc there was some speculation Beamdog would make BG3. Hah. Can't say I'm disappointed, as much as I'm one of the most critical people regarding Larian's BG3.

Originally Posted by Tuco
Also, I really don't think there's anything about the Infinity Engine titles that could genuinely be summarized as "impressionism" aesthetically. It's just a combination of low detail/poor image quality.

Hey, hey. The backgrounds in the IE games are beautiful and hold really well to modern times. BG1 maybe not as much, but the rest looks great.

I think the "impressionism" comment was more, uh, conceptual than literal though. In the literal sense, I'd describe IE as going for realism, as much as it was possible back then. It's not particularly stylized.
Posted By: Blackheifer Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 07/07/21 10:54 AM
Originally Posted by Uncle Lester
Originally Posted by Tuco
Also, I really don't think there's anything about the Infinity Engine titles that could genuinely be summarized as "impressionism" aesthetically. It's just a combination of low detail/poor image quality.

Hey, hey. The backgrounds in the IE games are beautiful and hold really well to modern times. BG1 maybe not as much, but the rest looks great.

I think the "impressionism" comment was more, uh, conceptual than literal though. In the literal sense, I'd describe IE as going for realism, as much as it was possible back then. It's not particularly stylized.

Impressionism is more about how light is used. The lack of definition is a byproduct of that.

But in all seriousness I don't think you can define most video games graphics as being intentionally one or the other - I mean...I think anyway.

But its also not a result of old technology, outdated graphics. I think in the case of Bioware and BG1 it was mostly about budget.

Truthfully the post on the Beamdog forums was more just fun to think about.

I started wondering, is the game Valheim impressionist? It kind of feels like it might be.
Posted By: Tuco Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 07/07/21 11:07 AM
Originally Posted by Uncle Lester
Hey, hey. The backgrounds in the IE games are beautiful and hold really well to modern times. BG1 maybe not as much, but the rest looks great.
I have no objections here (especially comparatively to their time) but that has nothing to do with the style used.

Incidentally, since we are on topic, if you go back to look at a lot of the prerendered backdrops in BG 1 and 2 as they were originally worked on, you'll realize that they were often a tadbit less charming/artistically pleasing that the low res let us imagine them to be.
We tend to remember them as "very painterly" while in reality a lot of details (buildings etc) were touched-up and not particularly detailed 3D studio renders. Not to mention amusing little details like the streets made by scanning pictures of coffee grains and relying on the low resolution to hide the fact.
A game like POE II Deadfire, to name one, is not only technically more advance (for OBVIOUS reasons, given its release date) but frankly speaking offers a lot of "pictorial" art far better than anything included in BG1 and 2.
It was eve more of a mixed bag, artistically speaking, with the two Icewind Dales and their weirdly mismatched sprites (you could occasionally see creatures realized in one style while some other were completely different), often recycled assets from some of their past titles.
Posted By: kanisatha Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 07/07/21 01:50 PM
Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
Yeah I totally wish we had more discussions like this - haha - how is Beamdog attracting all the Aesthetes?
Beats me.
I have no idea how Beamdog would be able to attract anyone, period.
Yeah, well, the truth is that thread only has a handful of posts in it. The Beamdog forum is pretty much dead. Only a very tiny number of people just repeat-post there. It's a really pathetic forum tbh.

Originally Posted by Uncle Lester
Speaking of Beamdog's forum, recently I came across a discussion regarding changes between 2AD&D and 5e.

Quote
[...]I've learned that Beamdog is about to start (or has already started) working on a new 5E BG-esque game[...]

Seems it never came to be. Iirc there was some speculation Beamdog would make BG3. Hah. Can't say I'm disappointed, as much as I'm one of the most critical people regarding Larian's BG3.
More is known about this. Apparently, the game was a follow-on of sorts, but not a direct sequel, to Planescape: Torment. It had been worked on for about two years, and had Dave Gaider from Bioware as lead writer. But WotC was not happy (and let's keep in mind WotC has been quite generous with their licensing recently) and killed the project around the same time that Larian was given the green light. And, Beamdog has now also been told by WotC that they can only continue to work on enhancements to the old games and not on any new content for any D&D IP.
Posted By: Naginata Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 07/07/21 01:59 PM
Will Patch 5 be available at the 8 of July?
Posted By: Tuco Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 07/07/21 02:03 PM
Originally Posted by Naginata
Will Patch 5 be available at the 8 of July?
That's the general assumption and what SEEMS to be implied in the way Larian worded the announcement, but who knows, really.
Posted By: Tuco Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 07/07/21 03:06 PM
...But what's more important, we'll get some weird-ass Twitch chat + LARPing interaction. Yay.

Here's a short preview:

Posted By: CJMPinger Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 07/07/21 03:10 PM
Well, if one of them is Larping as a Jester, their fate is sealed.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 07/07/21 03:59 PM
Originally Posted by virion
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Stop dreaming, just like me you're blacklisted since march 2020 grin
I was about to say it. We are ALL soft banned at larian xD
That is soo negative. :-/
On the bright side, in that case they read all our feedback. ^_^
Posted By: Maximuuus Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 07/07/21 04:25 PM
Originally Posted by Tuco
...But what's more important, we'll get some weird-ass Twitch chat + LARPing interaction. Yay.

Here's a short preview:


Haha grin
Posted By: Sir Dent Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 07/07/21 08:46 PM
Originally Posted by CJMPinger
Something I am terrified about is that IF they actually read our comments, are there users they know by name because of how many times or what they've commented...?

I mean whats the worst thing that happens if they know us? a banning for belligerency? Being turned into a bunch of jerk NPCS at the tavern complaining about how badly the people in charge of the adventuring guild arent living up to the legacy of the previous leaders? get put into a sidequest where the player has to go kill some trolls named after us?
Posted By: Blackheifer Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 07/07/21 09:31 PM
Originally Posted by Sir Dent
Originally Posted by CJMPinger
Something I am terrified about is that IF they actually read our comments, are there users they know by name because of how many times or what they've commented...?

I mean whats the worst thing that happens if they know us? a banning for belligerency? Being turned into a bunch of jerk NPCS at the tavern complaining about how badly the people in charge of the adventuring guild arent living up to the legacy of the previous leaders? get put into a sidequest where the player has to go kill some trolls named after us?

Yeah, but as a general rule you want to be careful about rewarding that sort of behavior. It can potentially result in one-upmanship and a lack of respect for boundaries in an attempt to get noticed.
Posted By: Sir Dent Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 07/07/21 09:53 PM
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
Originally Posted by Sir Dent
I mean whats the worst thing that happens if they know us? a banning for belligerency? Being turned into a bunch of jerk NPCS at the tavern complaining about how badly the people in charge of the adventuring guild arent living up to the legacy of the previous leaders? get put into a sidequest where the player has to go kill some trolls named after us?

Yeah, but as a general rule you want to be careful about rewarding that sort of behavior. It can potentially result in one-upmanship and a lack of respect for boundaries in an attempt to get noticed.

True, was more of a tongue in cheek comment I wouldnt mind being put in as an NPC, though Im not usually too trolly, maybe a slight bit sarcastic on rare occasion, though if somehow a troll named Sir Dent was in the game i would be curious as to how he got knighted rather than what I did to get a troll named after me.
Posted By: Uncle Lester Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 07/07/21 10:07 PM
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
But in all seriousness I don't think you can define most video games graphics as being intentionally one or the other - I mean...I think anyway.

I very much disagree, there's A LOT of stylisation in games in general. An example off the top of my head would be Zelda games. I don't recall if many of them were graphically impressive in their time, but most of the 3D ones either didn't age well or looked old already at release... from a technical point of view anyway. Because many are very stylised and beautiful in the "artistic" sense; art direction does the heavy lifting here and makes up for a game being lacking in "modern graphics". BotW hardly has "cutting-edge graphics", but it can look amazing.

I mean it mostly in a very general sense, as in disagreeing with "graphics in game not intentional", but very specific stylisation (art direction based on a specific artist or style) isn't that rare either. Or perhaps you meant something else entirely.

Originally Posted by Blackheifer
But its also not a result of old technology, outdated graphics. I think in the case of Bioware and BG1 it was mostly about budget.

BG1 for sure. You can see the huge leap in graphics between BG1 and BG2, with just two years between them and the same engine. Maybe it's not as apparent nowadays (albeit it was to me and I played BG1 last year for the first time), but the difference is substantial and indeed seems to be the result of bigger budget after BG1's success.

Originally Posted by Tuco
I have no objections here (especially comparatively to their time) but that has nothing to do with the style used.

Sure, was just referring to the "poor image quality". wink Although I guess you meant what you mentioned in the rest of your post, which I have to agree with.

Originally Posted by Tuco
Incidentally, since we are on topic, if you go back to look at a lot of the prerendered backdrops in BG 1 and 2 as they were originally worked on, you'll realize that they were often a tadbit less charming/artistically pleasing that the low res let us imagine them to be.
We tend to remember them as "very painterly" while in reality a lot of details (buildings etc) were touched-up and not particularly detailed 3D studio renders. Not to mention amusing little details like the streets made by scanning pictures of coffee grains and relying on the low resolution to hide the fact.

Yeah, I noticed some of the 3D renders, though they were mostly rather nicely touched-up. Enough to not look out of place. I have more of a problem with creature sprites that were based on 3D renders, those don't look as good. I didn't know that about the coffee streets, haha.

Originally Posted by Tuco
with the two Icewind Dales and their weirdly mismatched sprites (you could occasionally see creatures realized in one style while some other were completely different), often recycled assets from some of their past titles.

I must shamefully admit I didn't notice mismatched sprites, and I'm playing IWD2 now... I'll pay more attention now, haha. (There's LOTS of recycling though.)

Originally Posted by Sir Dent
I mean whats the worst thing that happens if they know us? a banning for belligerency? Being turned into a bunch of jerk NPCS at the tavern complaining about how badly the people in charge of the adventuring guild arent living up to the legacy of the previous leaders? get put into a sidequest where the player has to go kill some trolls named after us?

Hmpf! I will have you know that "Uncle Lester" would be a great name for a certain type of NPC, more than that, very much appropriate to the series...

(They'd need to make some kind of backstory of how he ended all the way up in BG though.)
Posted By: virion Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 07/07/21 11:15 PM
Originally Posted by Uncle Lester
Originally Posted by Sir Dent
I mean whats the worst thing that happens if they know us? a banning for belligerency? Being turned into a bunch of jerk NPCS at the tavern complaining about how badly the people in charge of the adventuring guild arent living up to the legacy of the previous leaders? get put into a sidequest where the player has to go kill some trolls named after us?

Hmpf! I will have you know that "Uncle Lester" would be a great name for a certain type of NPC, more than that, very much appropriate to the series...

(They'd need to make some kind of backstory of how he ended all the way up in BG though.)

1 ) I swear to god the troll thing would be hillarious xD

2) I was convinced your nickname came after THIS uncle lester. Not the other one. Timestamp 2 minutes onward.
Posted By: Blackheifer Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 07/07/21 11:53 PM
Originally Posted by Uncle Lester
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
But in all seriousness I don't think you can define most video games graphics as being intentionally one or the other - I mean...I think anyway.

I very much disagree, there's A LOT of stylisation in games in general. An example off the top of my head would be Zelda games. I don't recall if many of them were graphically impressive in their time, but most of the 3D ones either didn't age well or looked old already at release... from a technical point of view anyway. Because many are very stylised and beautiful in the "artistic" sense; art direction does the heavy lifting here and makes up for a game being lacking in "modern graphics". BotW hardly has "cutting-edge graphics", but it can look amazing.

I mean it mostly in a very general sense, as in disagreeing with "graphics in game not intentional", but very specific stylisation (art direction based on a specific artist or style) isn't that rare either. Or perhaps you meant something else entirely.

I mean did the Art Director intentionally set out to create an Impressionist style or a realist style, or do you mean of all the possible styles that Art Directors aim for one and hope the budget covers it?

Probably not Abstract that I can think of, but Modern definitely, also Contemporary and Surrealism.

I haven't seen Cubism that I recall.
Posted By: Alexandrite Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 08/07/21 12:04 AM
Oh this discussion is fun! Art and art history/styles being one of my favourite topics.

I would assume the Art Directors decide the overall style of the game that they're aiming for, and the storyboard/concept artists take it from there, then through to the final 3D artists and renders.

BG3 art style is incredible and continues to amaze me. Slightly stylized, of course, but strikes me as very realistic when it comes to faces and overall character designs. The artists have done an incredible job on this game.

The older games would have been stylized by necessity.

You will also find particular colour schemes favoured in some games, and indeed some movies. For a period of time a few years ago, lot of movies came out with everything tinted yellow-orange/teal-blue (complementary contrast colours). This article mentions this used in games as well:
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OrangeBlueContrast
Posted By: Icelyn Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 08/07/21 12:17 PM
Yay for patch day! I am ready for a new pet and to see what else is added in Patch 5! claphands
Posted By: Alexandrite Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 08/07/21 12:27 PM
I have my alarm set for 4am QLD Australian time to see the Larian LARPG shenanigans, and hopefully check out the patch before work smile
YAY PATCH DAY
Posted By: Dark_Ansem Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 08/07/21 12:30 PM
What time is the twitch gonna happen today.
Posted By: Icelyn Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 08/07/21 12:36 PM
Originally Posted by Dark_Ansem
What time is the twitch gonna happen today.
11 am PT
Posted By: TestyMcTesterson Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 08/07/21 12:36 PM
the countdown is here for reference

https://baldursgate3.game/
Posted By: Tuco Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 08/07/21 12:48 PM
I bottled up a fair amount of vicarious embarrassment and I think I'm going to use it all.
I just hope the LARPing is not going to fill the overwhelming majority of the stream's duration and we'll get some ACTUAL focus on the game's content.
Posted By: nation Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 08/07/21 12:57 PM
+1 hype

as a baldur's gate fan i genuinely hope that this goes well, but i suppose 'well' is relative
Posted By: TestyMcTesterson Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 08/07/21 01:13 PM
LARPing has to take the majority of the stream, doesn't it? It wouldnt be worth all their effort if it's over quickly.

30 minutes is too little for them to do anything other than make introductions and 1 puzzle or combat. I'd say at least an hour is needed if they want to do multiple puzzles/combat scenarios like they hinted at, probably longer. Can't see them incorporating gameplay when they are already running a Twitch LARP and there's no new content to show off so that leaves time for more LARPing.

Compared to the other activities, reading patch notes can't take that long to go through. It was quickly done for the last panel compared to the time spend on WOTC interviewee and the druid gameplay.

edit

just checked the last panel and the patch notes took up 15 minutes of the 2 hours 26 minute VOD, from 0:12.00 to 0:27.00 . Should probably expect the same amount of time or even less for this panel because there's limited new content and the LARP has to take more time and be less flexible an interview and gameplay showcase.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 08/07/21 01:34 PM
I wonder ...
And i bet you all did too already. laugh

If their characters are suppose to hint for us future companions ...
Astarion > Stijn
Shadowheart > Charlotte
Wyll > Ine
Gale > Kelly (note, Necromancer Gale semi-confrimmed :D)
Karlach > David
Halsin(???) > Nick
Minsc > Farhang

But i dont see here anyone who would fit role of Lae'zel ... so this theory is probably false.

On topic ...
I would not mind if that LARP would be whole show, and we get patchnotes only in written form ...
After all, that is what you wanted, isnt it? laugh
Posted By: mrfuji3 Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 08/07/21 03:11 PM
Originally Posted by TestyMcTesterson
Compared to the other activities, reading patch notes can't take that long to go through. It was quickly done for the last panel compared to the time spend on WOTC interviewee and the druid gameplay.

edit

just checked the last panel and the patch notes took up 15 minutes of the 2 hours 26 minute VOD, from 0:12.00 to 0:27.00 . Should probably expect the same amount of time or even less for this panel because there's limited new content and the LARP has to take more time and be less flexible an interview and gameplay showcase.
I hope they spend more time on patch notes. Instead of the rapid fire of PFH2, it'd be great if they took some more time to explain the reasons behind various changes. Not for all the changes, obviously, but for the more important ones. 30-40 minutes is not an unreasonable amount of time to dedicate to patch notes, especially if it includes discussion by multiple (importantly, not just Swen and the patch-note-reader) of the developers/designers and short gameplay videos to go along with it.
Posted By: Maximuuus Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 08/07/21 06:43 PM
Ok, so...

Until now If I have understood well :

- New UI for active rolls (dialogs, disarm and so on). Possibility to cast spells.
- Inspiration point if you play according the chosen background
- Possibility to disarm ennemies, so they'll take weapons they find, throw them and so on...
- Eating during long rest. Full supply = full spellslots and HP, not full supply = not all supply and spellslot.
- Camp will match the location. If you sleep in the underdark, you're not gonna TP to your camp. If you camp in a crypt, you're gonna camp in the crypt. for shortrest only ? not sure

It's going to take a while.
Posted By: DragonSnooz Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 08/07/21 06:44 PM
New Roll UI is the highlight so far...
Posted By: Topgoon Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 08/07/21 06:48 PM
New rest system!

Obviously will need to play it to see how it works, but I'm glad they are trying out new implementations to address feedback.

Changing camp settings is also great.
Posted By: Maximuuus Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 08/07/21 06:49 PM
Originally Posted by Topgoon
New rest system!

Obviously will need to play it to see how it works, but I'm glad they are trying out new implementations to address feedback.

Changing camp settings is also great.

Is that only for shortrest ? Not sure I understood well.
Long rest at camp with food supply + short rest everywhere with a background depending your location ?
Posted By: Kowabonga Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 08/07/21 06:51 PM
The new rest system look nice, finally I will make something of all food items in my inventory.

Can't wait to know if the hooded camp visitor will be the new class or not !
Posted By: DragonSnooz Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 08/07/21 06:56 PM
It seems to be a limit on if you can long rest. Short rests of some kind seem to be infinite.

So multi-classing is happening eventually, and reactions are getting "extended" but not in this patch.

Not sure what extending means (in this context), but it's better than hearing nothing about it.
Posted By: Blackheifer Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 08/07/21 07:01 PM
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Ok, so...

Until now If I have understood well :

- New UI for active rolls (dialogs, disarm and so on). Possibility to cast spells.
- Inspiration point if you play according the chosen background
- Possibility to disarm ennemies, so they'll take weapons they find, throw them and so on...
- Eating during long rest. Full supply = full spellslots and HP, not full supply = not all supply and spellslot.
- Camp will match the location. If you sleep in the underdark, you're not gonna TP to your camp. If you camp in a crypt, you're gonna camp in the crypt. for shortrest only ? not sure

It's going to take a while.

They are separating Jump and Disengage!

DISENGAGE IS A FULL ACTION!!!

Finally!
Posted By: Topgoon Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 08/07/21 07:02 PM
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Originally Posted by Topgoon
New rest system!

Obviously will need to play it to see how it works, but I'm glad they are trying out new implementations to address feedback.

Changing camp settings is also great.

Is that only for shortrest ? Not sure I understood well.
Long rest at camp with food supply + short rest everywhere with a background depending your location ?

No mention of Short Rest being changed.

For Long Rest - yes, visually it'll reflect where you are now (i.e. if you're in underdark, camp looks like underdark). Not sure how many permutations that is though - i.e. if I rest in the Goblin camp, do I get a goblin camp rest location? Or do I get a generic surface world camp?

Food (well he said "supply") is now required to do a long rest. If you don't have enough food, you don't recover 100% of your spells (and HP? I think I heard that).
Posted By: DragonSnooz Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 08/07/21 07:03 PM
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
They are separating Jump and Disengage!
Finally!
It's going to make a new playthrough worthwhile after the patch drops.
Posted By: Saito Hikari Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 08/07/21 07:04 PM
It's possible they may have gotten rid of food healing entirely if they're going to be used for rations now. You have potions for mid-combat healing anyway.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 08/07/21 07:10 PM
I only wonder if the fact that Swen sometimes (twice now) do whatever he wants, no matter what people vote for ... is that promissed part of the show, that is suppose to show us how they approach our feedback. laugh
Posted By: Maximuuus Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 08/07/21 07:14 PM
Looks like everyone can still read every scrolls. I have hope when the fighter said "I cannot read that, I'm a fighter".
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Ok, so...

Until now If I have understood well :

- New UI for active rolls (dialogs, disarm and so on). Possibility to cast spells.
- Inspiration point if you play according the chosen background
- Possibility to disarm ennemies, so they'll take weapons they find, throw them and so on...
- Eating during long rest. Full supply = full spellslots and HP, not full supply = not all supply and spellslot.
- Camp will match the location. If you sleep in the underdark, you're not gonna TP to your camp. If you camp in a crypt, you're gonna camp in the crypt. for shortrest only ? not sure

It's going to take a while.

They are separating Jump and Disengage!

Finally!

Well, it doesn't mean that diusengage is not a bonus action anymore... which is the main mechanical problem.
Posted By: Maximuuus Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 08/07/21 07:17 PM
Originally Posted by noirchamber
Disengaged has been confirmed as an action.

yeah that's SO COOL.
Posted By: noirchamber Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 08/07/21 07:24 PM
I was editing my post, but decided to delete it because I thought you probably found out already
Posted By: Alexandrite Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 08/07/21 07:54 PM
PATCH 5 is coming July 13th!!!

That means we still have to wait A LITTLE LONGER but it's gonna be worth it!!!
Posted By: Kowabonga Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 08/07/21 08:00 PM
No new class frown ...
I know that adding this kind of features need time but if they need 6 month of development for each class (without talking about adding race or new party member), I begin to doubt that all promised things can be released in 2022, or even 2023...
Posted By: Nyloth Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 08/07/21 08:04 PM
Originally Posted by Kowabonga
No new class frown ...
I know that adding this kind of features need time but if they need 6 month of development for each class (without talking about adding race or new party member), I begin to doubt that all promised things can be released in 2022, or even 2023...

No one said that EA will have all classes or all races. In fact, they can develop and add them to another client, but not add them to EA.

In general, this is not a bad patch, but they again show that Shadow is important for the plot, and I don't like to take a second cleric to the party... And the show was wonderful, it was fun!
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 08/07/21 08:08 PM
Originally Posted by Nyloth
No one said that EA will have all classes or all races.
Actualy ... in that "loading" or "QA" parts, someone asked about Races, and Swen told us they are not planning to add much into EA, bcs they simply want to keep things for full release ...

Maybe that apply for some classes too? O_o

Even tho i would say this would not be best choice (imho) ... since classes certainly need help, and at least some specific races (Half-Orc, Dragonborn) should have ben seen while there still is time to change them at least a little ...
On the other hand, they didnt change anything about elves either. :-/
Posted By: Nyloth Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 08/07/21 08:10 PM
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by Nyloth
No one said that EA will have all classes or all races.
Actualy ... in that "loading" or "QA" parts, someone asked about Races, and Swen told us they are not planning to add much into EA, bcs they simply want to keep things for full release ...

Maybe that apply for some classes too? O_o

Even tho i would say this would not be best choice (imho) ... since classes certainly need help, and at least some specific races (Half-Orc, Dragonborn) should have ben seen while there still is time to change them at least a little ...
On the other hand, they didnt change anything about elves either. :-/

why they must change elves? =0
Posted By: Anfindel Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 08/07/21 08:12 PM
The things they are changing/adding, generally relate to ALL classes - they clearly are working on overall game feature - U/I, jump/ disengage/item creation mechanics/reaction mechanics/camping mechanics and so all that would be applicable to all races/classes at this point. Once they have that in a form closer to final, they can apply any specific class/race features and mechanics to the baseline ones. For now, they have basic fighter/caster/healer/rogue classes to use in formulating those base mechanics.

It's a logical approach, although some might prefer other priorities. Paladin/Barbarian will stem off basic fighter mechanics, bard off of rogue, sorcerer to at least some extent off wizard/warlock. Might have made sense to handle druid earlier as they did since it introduces shape change abilities which would also require certain baseline mechanics.

I still expect that despite the changes they announced, and the upcoming changes they indicated will be happening, folks will still insist they don't listen to what anyone says.

And I still stand by my view that they are smart to reveal things only when they feel good and ready, and not according to some arbitrary time table posters insist upon - and that Sven needs to take some acting classes !
Posted By: Alexandrite Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 08/07/21 08:14 PM
Leave the elves alone! laugh

This patch sounds great - AND they said there will be a content heavy patch coming next, after this one. There will also be new content in the form of new cinematics and stuff for us to discover. Can't wait until Tuesday - aaaahhhh!

IMHO it's fine to leave some surprises until full release day.

I wish they had told us anything about the ability to play the Origin characters. (Or did I miss it when I went to make coffee?)
Posted By: acatlas Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 08/07/21 08:21 PM
see you all in patch 6 that was not really exciting overall. Eating just = more time pickpocketing repeatedly to loot the npcs. Inspiration points for backgrounds = meh. Generally most of the time your just picking them for specific skill checks as there are not enough options even in core dnd really with those.

Option to save shadow heart interesting, Dog cleaned up is nice. And the cinimatic adjustments same thing for the camp but its just visual perks really. The changes just don't feel like its worth a replay personally I will just wait another patch at based on what I saw maybe the patch notes will have something but currently i'm not excited enough to play again so its going to be another 5-6 months probably before something comes with enough reason to play through EA again. 12 patchs of bug fixes 2 weeks apart then a month and a half of silence then a new patch.

Nothing dramatic was added they didn't fix dwing and swapping weapons they didn't fix wizards casting cleric spells. No level cap increase. No new companions. No New Classes. No New Races. No fix for advantage on pack stab. No rolling ability scores. Basically nothing that has been a hot topic since release. Not Impressed at all to be honest that's my opionion.

The mechanic doesn't really super change long resting and short resting that much it just makes it significantly more annoying. As well as far more annoying for gold. Where previously you could sell that for quick change now your going to need to pick pocket twice as much to cover expenseses. So instead of an hour of pick pocketing back and forth in the druid village now im going to have to spend 2-3 hours and keep a lot of garbage in storage for long rests. Which will impact carrying capacity ect. Especially since you don't have a pack mule to carry things. Means more going back and forth to the druid grove more time emptying your inventory and less weight you can carry just makes the game longer with stuff you dont really want to be doing especially when you cant roll your ability scores to make sure you have significant carrying capacity on multiple characters. Its just a bigger pain in the butt IMO. Something that is far less impactful in actual dnd where you dont have to make 10 trips back and forth to town to empty your inventory. Having to keep a fixed amount of food on you just feels more annoying than actually fun when you don't have a mount you can store stupid things like that on to remove the need to pay as much attention to it impacting your carrying capacity.

Now you kill a wave of goblins spend an hour going back and forth to the druid grove selling items before picking up all the food again to move on and if you need a long rest now you get to pick pocket for an extra hour as well if you need food so yeah. Not really excited at all about that feature its just annoying.

Using companions to cast spells in conversation which could be a good thing also means that your going to need more rests to fill your spell slots back up as well which will exastravate that even more. Personally I feel most of the changes in the patch are just going to lead to a lot of time wasted doing tasks you really don't want to do repeatedly. While the hope was for something to be hyped about during the panel honestly I do not think this patch really addressed any major concerns at least for most people. When I am asked by friends about if its worth coming back to stream it my answer is going to be exactly check back in 6 months. Maybe then there will be something worth spending your time on it.
Posted By: acatlas Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 08/07/21 08:24 PM
Shadowheart being able to be saved is the highlight of the entire thing 1 significant change to story play. 6 months for that is dissappointing.
Posted By: Sir Dent Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 08/07/21 08:29 PM
mostly a meh grade for the patch from me.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 08/07/21 08:39 PM
Originally Posted by Nyloth
why they must change elves? =0
There was quite HUGE topic about that ... but im too tired to search for it now. :-/

Basicaly the thing was that no elf have actualy elvish face (eye shape, eye rotation, triangular face instead of round, etc. etc.), and they all simply looks like pointy eared humans ...
Wich is kinda understandable, since Larian is using that face scanning technology ... but that dont makes it right.

Maybe "change" is a too strong word for it ...
But it would be certainly nice, to have at least one, or two actualy elvish faces in options ...
Also ... it kinda makes me worried about Half-Orcs. :-/
Posted By: Nyloth Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 08/07/21 08:53 PM
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by Nyloth
why they must change elves? =0
There was quite HUGE topic about that ... but im too tired to search for it now. :-/

Basicaly the thing was that no elf have actualy elvish face (eye shape, eye rotation, triangular face instead of round, etc. etc.), and they all simply looks like pointy eared humans ...
Wich is kinda understandable, since Larian is using that face scanning technology ... but that dont makes it right.

Maybe "change" is a too strong word for it ...
But it would be certainly nice, to have at least one, or two actualy elvish faces in options ...
Also ... it kinda makes me worried about Half-Orcs. :-/


I know what topic you are talking about, but the opinion regarding the appearance of elves is controversial. Not all people even in this topic agree with this direction, so I don't think that Larian will change anything in the design of elves.

I believe that the design of the elves has changed over time, it concerns their faces.
I admit that the body models can be replaced, but I do not believe that the faces need any editing. Otherwise, you will have to change every significant NPC in the game, according to this design.

Add more versions for player selection? Yes. Change general design? Absolutely not.

Look at the art for video "Sleep Sound". I think this applies not only to BG3.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 08/07/21 09:10 PM
Well ... yes ...
Im still worried about Half-Orcs tho. :-/
Posted By: MarcoNeves Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 08/07/21 09:59 PM
Originally Posted by Nyloth
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by Nyloth
why they must change elves? =0
There was quite HUGE topic about that ... but im too tired to search for it now. :-/

Basicaly the thing was that no elf have actualy elvish face (eye shape, eye rotation, triangular face instead of round, etc. etc.), and they all simply looks like pointy eared humans ...
Wich is kinda understandable, since Larian is using that face scanning technology ... but that dont makes it right.

Maybe "change" is a too strong word for it ...
But it would be certainly nice, to have at least one, or two actualy elvish faces in options ...
Also ... it kinda makes me worried about Half-Orcs. :-/


I know what topic you are talking about, but the opinion regarding the appearance of elves is controversial. Not all people even in this topic agree with this direction, so I don't think that Larian will change anything in the design of elves.

I believe that the design of the elves has changed over time, it concerns their faces.
I admit that the body models can be replaced, but I do not believe that the faces need any editing. Otherwise, you will have to change every significant NPC in the game, according to this design.

Add more versions for player selection? Yes. Change general design? Absolutely not.

Look at the art for video "Sleep Sound". I think this applies not only to BG3.

Yeah, I kinda like my Elves the way they are now: tall and slender or athletic gorgeous human-like faces with mid-sized/non-elefant ears. (Edit was for typos)
Posted By: gaymer Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 08/07/21 10:05 PM
Originally Posted by Nyloth
Originally Posted by Kowabonga
No new class frown ...
I know that adding this kind of features need time but if they need 6 month of development for each class (without talking about adding race or new party member), I begin to doubt that all promised things can be released in 2022, or even 2023...

No one said that EA will have all classes or all races. In fact, they can develop and add them to another client, but not add them to EA.

In general, this is not a bad patch, but they again show that Shadow is important for the plot, and I don't like to take a second cleric to the party... And the show was wonderful, it was fun!

Only they did say EA will have all the classes, not all the races.

Sorry to anyone else, but this patch was still underwhelming for the amount of time between Patch 4.
Posted By: Icelyn Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 08/07/21 10:13 PM
Originally Posted by Alexandrite
Leave the elves alone! laugh
+ 1 million! The elves are great as they are!
Posted By: middle tab Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 08/07/21 10:29 PM
I agree that there is a new rest mechanic. scares away people like me. people who do not like such difficulties and resource management. I would suggest making it part of the game's difficulty level. at hard level, food is needed to restore health and spells. with less complexity, you can do without food. I understand that this is all just a test. but i'm afraid it might ruin the gameplay in the future.
Posted By: Uberwilhelm Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 08/07/21 11:51 PM
Oh for cripes sake. Weeks and weeks of complete radio silence and then this is what they give us? A new die roll mechanic, more micromanaging and some other superfluous fluff? Seriously? What the heck a have they been doing for the last 5 months? Yeah, yeah, I know. Early access, beta testing, be patient, making a game is hard, blahblahblah. I mean, not a single thing listed makes me want to start up the game again. I guess I'll check back in another 5 months. Maybe by then we will be able to *GASP* get to level 5!
Posted By: acatlas Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 09/07/21 02:17 AM
It is very underwhelming honestly they added the ability for you to see boosted mechanics which was ok. They added the ability to cast spells on your characters during conversations. They Fluffed up the appearance of the dog with actual fur. They made shadowheart saveable in the prologue so they added a little bit of story content about what you could write probably in a week of sitting on the sofa doing nothing. The camp thing is just flash it doesnt really do that much honestly i liked seeing the base camp evolve over time. Kinda going to miss that now personally moving camp every time is a lil disappointing. I had no idea anyone even wanted that mechanic.

I get people wanted the rest system improved but the way it was changed was more or less just a giant time sync with pickpocketing and makes things far more annoying with farming food items now. Honestly I think that was a horrible implimentation personally. All its going to do is add an hour to my pick pocketing time every time i go anywhere and make me have a pain in my ass with carrying extra food I would rather have just vendored to save time pick pocketing. Time Sync thats it personally think it is a horrible mechanic. Vote 2 thumbs down on the food mechanic. A lot of the stuff people wanted addressed was ignored.

Party Size - Ignored.
Combat Mechanics - Backstab, Mage's casting priest spells, and Weapon swapping ignored. Disengage corrected but honestly the mechanic is take a 5 foot step out of threat and you dont incure an attack of opportunity anyways so its not really relivent to much. Combat mechanics are hard. LMAO. Disarming was added but technically that kind of steals benefits from a class as that was pretty much a mechanic purely available to certain subclasses to that kind of takes away from those subclasses if everyclass can disarm during combat.
Character creation options - Ignored.
Rolling stats - Ignored.
Going above level 4 - ignored.
Day/night Cycles - I do not really see why this is needed but ignored. As it has no impact unless random encounters can happen which are not on the docket currently.
Dye options for gear - Not done.
Body Size adjustments / More voices - Not done.
Barrelmancy has been enhanced now they can throw anything they find on the ground at you like giant rocks.


There might be what 10 items and 10 spells added to the mechanics...Not to sound cynical but oh wow..... A large amount of what was said was completely ignored. No Additional Companions / Races / Classes. The animations I get it do take time. but it feels like the entire thing was a fluff piece. Last time the patch was like we got 1 class not much else I was like. Hey it took 5 months they were doing things to speed up loading time I can understand that. Its early access I get that but when you compare it to other games in same genra and early access what they added was just like an insult almost. It feels like they are stalling for tones and tones of time and giving almost jack squat with the time that they have.

You use to have modders actually releasing mods daily for it now there hasnt even been mods added in like forever and most of the old ones no longer work. The modders were adding more content than larion did. Early access or not I would rather go back to version 3.0 and play with modder generated classes than play the current update. Sadly I had to install the updates currently so most of that stuff is not compatible anymore. The panel was a huge disappointment.

As noted 12 weeks of 2 week updates hey we fixed the discoloration from the pink pixel on Volos shirt. Followed by 2 more months of silence and a hey we are giving you....the ability to add 1 additional letter to your character name coming in patch 6. Not impressed at all. I think I was to nice honestly in my review on steam. Saying wait for full release to get it the early access lacks communication. I should have said check back in 2031 by then the game might actually have level 6. Every other CRPG out there has been showing bg3 up hard core in everything but graphics so yeah.
Posted By: The_BlauerDragon Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 09/07/21 02:30 AM
Every patch and update, no matter how grandiose or benign, is progress. I'm happy to see a new one on the horizon and I look forward to this one and all that follow.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 09/07/21 02:44 AM
Don't knock it til you try it. I mean, yes, still a lot of things we didnt get, but I am excited to try out the new stuff.

By the way, food management is about limiting Long Rest and making food different from potions. That is important to the overall gameplay. At least give it a chance before you all bash the crap out of it.

I am also eager to see what else they've beefed up. They didn't mention everything.
Posted By: TestyMcTesterson Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 09/07/21 07:30 AM
Originally Posted by TestyMcTesterson
just checked the last panel and the patch notes took up 15 minutes of the 2 hours 26 minute VOD, from 0:12.00 to 0:27.00 . Should probably expect the same amount of time or even less for this panel because there's limited new content and the LARP has to take more time and be less flexible an interview and gameplay showcase.

So i was completely wrong about expecting them to dedicate up to 15 minutes of the stream to patch notes, They were just thrown out piece by piece when they were setting up a new part of the stream. Didn't think they would choose a poorer form of communication than that rushed dox-matrix printer joke from then 2nd panel but the communication of information last night was worse.

I'm happy with the updates themselves, I just think they don't need every piece of information to be distorted for humor, it usually works better when two have greater separation.
Posted By: Riandor Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 09/07/21 07:55 AM
Originally Posted by TestyMcTesterson
Originally Posted by TestyMcTesterson
just checked the last panel and the patch notes took up 15 minutes of the 2 hours 26 minute VOD, from 0:12.00 to 0:27.00 . Should probably expect the same amount of time or even less for this panel because there's limited new content and the LARP has to take more time and be less flexible an interview and gameplay showcase.

So i was completely wrong about expecting them to dedicate up to 15 minutes of the stream to patch notes, They were just thrown out piece by piece when they were setting up a new part of the stream. Didn't think they would choose a poorer form of communication than that rushed dox-matrix printer joke from then 2nd panel but the communication of information last night was worse.

I'm happy with the updates themselves, I just think they don't need every piece of information to be distorted for humor, it usually works better when two have greater separation.
Just goes to show you can never please everyone though right?

I mean I probably would sit through a 15min video of patch notes, but honestlyI would rather just read them and this was at least a bit of fun and showed off the main highlights of the patch. I appreciate we feel starved of information, or feel that this taking longer than we would like, but frankly this was a bit of fun and I look forward to the patch notes early next week.
Posted By: Terminator2020 Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 09/07/21 07:56 AM
No Elves are not great they look to human. Anyway that is not going to stop me enjoying the game.


One thing that worries me little is this food harvesting if it requires more food for higher level characters for long rest to get all benefits. I am sure if it becomes to hard they will likely balance it somehow. I get though that rest spamming must somehow be restricted.

I know I was asikng for harder challenge levels introduced then normal. However I did not ask for normal challenge level to be much harder I wonder how food rest will affect that?

Anyway genreally I like the good work with patch 5:)!
Posted By: TestyMcTesterson Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 09/07/21 07:59 AM
I agree you can't please everyone but does anyone prefer having a few minutes of information spread out over two hours? They could have had the new information in one section and the rest of the stream to showcase it. It would a more effective method of communication.

I would also prefer to read the notes and have the stream focus on the entertainment for people that enjoy it. This particular combination of the two is just less effective in achieving either purpose than most other options.
Posted By: TestyMcTesterson Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 09/07/21 08:04 AM
I thought the increasing amount of food required was due to adding more and more camp followers rather than PC's higher levels but i could have misheard that.
Posted By: Terminator2020 Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 09/07/21 08:16 AM
Originally Posted by TestyMcTesterson
I thought the increasing amount of food required was due to adding more and more camp followers rather than PC's higher levels but i could have misheard that.
You misheard. He clearly said you will notice as you levelup the cost for rest will increase. It is not tied to how many in the group only.
Posted By: TestyMcTesterson Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 09/07/21 08:25 AM
I checked again and your right he said it's tied to leveling up, he went on to say that it "reflects the growing upkeep of your ever increasing camp".

So mechanically it's tied to levels but narratively it's meant to represent the "increasing camp".

I guess the increasing levels is an easier stand in than calculating the number of camp followers at any particular moment
Posted By: Riandor Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 09/07/21 10:33 AM
Originally Posted by TestyMcTesterson
I checked again and your right he said it's tied to leveling up, he went on to say that it "reflects the growing upkeep of your ever increasing camp".

So mechanically it's tied to levels but narratively it's meant to represent the "increasing camp".

I guess the increasing levels is an easier stand in than calculating the number of camp followers at any particular moment
Well as you level up and meet new people the camp does become more elaborate and so it requires more upkeep. WIll be interesting to play around with this. I actually quite like the idea, proof will be in the pudding as to whether it becomes a frustration though, I mean I have seen this happen in other games whereby you end it up in a never ending loop of doom because you can't heal and thus can't get to anywhere where you can get the resources needed to... yep, heal (or relearn spells etc...). I think even in BG1&2 this was an issue of needing to rest en route because of an encounter, then getting ambushed and so on.
Posted By: TestyMcTesterson Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 09/07/21 10:46 AM
Originally Posted by Riandor
[quote=TestyMcTesterson]
Well as you level up and meet new people the camp does become more elaborate and so it requires more upkeep.

Yeah that's why my original takeaway was that it was due to more followers.
Posted By: Terminator2020 Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 09/07/21 10:59 AM
Originally Posted by TestyMcTesterson
Originally Posted by Riandor
[quote=TestyMcTesterson]
Well as you level up and meet new people the camp does become more elaborate and so it requires more upkeep.

Yeah that's why my original takeaway was that it was due to more followers.
Yes but logic was here when you levelup also your level up and require more food. I hope they make so we can buy lots of food.
Even if you are solo (if you try play solo no companions) the needed food is increased if you levelup.

Logic? Do not ask me of logic. Why would food heal people? It is not a realistic game and it is a fantasy game.
Posted By: virion Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 09/07/21 11:10 AM
Because....food does heal people? Like.... If you're hurt you recover faster if you eat lol.
Obviously a pizza won't close that open wound on your arm from a goblin arrow but you get the idea :P
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 09/07/21 11:15 AM
I dont really understand the people who feel the urge to come here, just to tell us that they will not play patch 5 since there is "not enough content added" ... well, then dont ... i believe rest of us will somehow manage to enjoy the game anyway. laugh

Originally Posted by virion
Because....food does heal people? Like.... If you're hurt you recover faster if you eat lol.
Obviously a pizza won't close that open wound on your arm from a goblin arrow but you get the idea :P
Actualy it does ... :P :P :P
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Posted By: Terminator2020 Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 09/07/21 11:17 AM
Originally Posted by virion
Because....food does heal people? Like.... If you're hurt you recover faster if you eat lol.
Obviously a pizza won't close that open wound on your arm from a goblin arrow but you get the idea :P
Naah if I wake up in hospital after car accident... my first comments:
Me: Nurse get me food!
Nurse: You will get food soon not yet do you want water?
Me: Naah lots of food and I can rise from this hospital bed today!
Nurse: What?!
Me: I know you see I have played Baldurs Gate 3 laugh.
Posted By: Tuco Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 09/07/21 11:23 AM
Fun fact: in reality it turns out that fasting (aka "limited controlled starvation") seems to be better for "healing" your body than the alternatives.
Posted By: Terminator2020 Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 09/07/21 11:26 AM
Originally Posted by Tuco
Fun fact: in reality it turns out that fasting (aka "limited controlled starvation") seems to be better for "healing" your body than the alternatives.
I know and in real life hospital you are not allowed food unless doctor says so. In addition before operation it is not recommended food and not immediately after operation.

Depending on what you have, but if it is bacteria infection (not COVID 19 that is virus) I would guess they can set liquid water to you and antibiotics (can help vs bacteria infection, but not against virus like COVID 19), but food no not unless doctor gives permission.

Personally I got PIGFLUE H1N1 really hard and was taken to hospital care and got oxygen mask. I was not tempted to eat when had oxygen mask. I never need to take pigflue vaccine. I have now got first vaccine shot vs COVID 19 and have been lucky to avoid that. I look forward to the moment when I get my second vaccination vs COVID 19.

I dont give a crap about comments like normal flue kills a lot. Flue usually kills very old and weak people. A Pandemic like H1N1 pigflue or COVID 19 it does not care if you are fit and do sports (I do sports) and it can KILL! In addition there is risk for immediaty follow up of bacteria infections in lungs after those this is a real killer:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pneumonia
"Each year, pneumonia affects about 450 million people globally (7% of the population) and results in about 4 million deaths."
Posted By: Sigi98 Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 09/07/21 12:52 PM
Originally Posted by Tuco
Fun fact: in reality it turns out that fasting (aka "limited controlled starvation") seems to be better for "healing" your body than the alternatives.

'Fun fact': both statemtents are completely oversimplified, nutrition and health are an extremely complex topic that we don't understand to a satisfying degree, and in reality what constitutes 'healing' is different for each individual person and for each individual disease.
Posted By: mrfuji3 Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 09/07/21 03:12 PM
@TestyMcTesterson, @Riandor, @me, and all others who would prefer a single 10-20 minute video block of patch notes: check out the Community Update #13 thread. The bottom of the patch notes links a video where Swen goes through the changes one by one.

Or just click below
[/quote]
Posted By: Tuco Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 09/07/21 03:17 PM
Originally Posted by Sigi98
'Fun fact': both statemtents are completely oversimplified, nutrition and health are an extremely complex topic that we don't understand to a satisfying degree, and in reality what constitutes 'healing' is different for each individual person and for each individual disease.
Fun fact: you are oversimplifying your complaint about an oversimplification.
Posted By: Ballum Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 13/07/21 09:10 AM
Does anyone know when patch 5 goes live for Stadia?
Posted By: SerraSerra Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 13/07/21 09:20 AM
Originally Posted by Ballum
Does anyone know when patch 5 goes live for Stadia?
+1
Posted By: Medjai Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 13/07/21 09:58 AM
How do you know if Patch 5 has been updated to your game? Im through Steam.
Posted By: Alexandrite Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 13/07/21 10:03 AM
Probably when the patch download appears in your Libraries, subheading Downloads.


You could also check Steam Database:
https://steamdb.info/app/1086940/depots/?branch=public
Posted By: Blackheifer Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 13/07/21 10:04 AM
Originally Posted by Medjai
How do you know if Patch 5 has been updated to your game? Im through Steam.

Well you should get a notification of the patch being released on the BG3 News page in your library.

As for when the patch is being released they said late afternoon. They didn't say Belgian - or Central European Time- (Currently its Noon) or Pacific Standard Time though (Currently its 3am).
Posted By: Maximuuus Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 13/07/21 10:22 AM
Usually it's late afternoon in Belgium when patches are released. I would say in 4 to 6 hours from now.
Posted By: Medjai Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 13/07/21 10:42 AM
Thanks
Posted By: Medjai Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 13/07/21 10:43 AM
Thank you
Posted By: Chacruna Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 14/07/21 01:54 PM
So where is Patch 5? Has it been delayed? smile
Posted By: Naginata Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 14/07/21 02:04 PM
Originally Posted by Chacruna
So where is Patch 5? Has it been delayed? smile

Obviously
Posted By: Riandor Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 14/07/21 02:44 PM
Originally Posted by Chacruna
So where is Patch 5? Has it been delayed? smile
Delayed until Thursday (tomorrow). Time is still unknown, but most speculate early evening Central European Time.
Posted By: Chacruna Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 14/07/21 03:09 PM
Originally Posted by Riandor
Originally Posted by Chacruna
So where is Patch 5? Has it been delayed? smile
Delayed until Thursday (tomorrow). Time is still unknown, but most speculate early evening Central European Time.

Awesome thank you! I am looking very much forward to playing it as I haven't touched the game since the initial release of the Early Access version. Hopefully I can play the newest patch tomorrow then smile
Posted By: Kal Spiro Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 15/07/21 01:05 AM
Got caught up on "Tomorrow" yesterday and totally missed that today is Wednesdayz
Posted By: Ballum Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 15/07/21 03:03 PM
>_< any news on patch 5?
Posted By: Ballum Re: Pre-Patch Announcement - 15/07/21 03:06 PM
Nvm, like the second I asked the patch dropped.
Edit: Also for anyone else.on Stadia wondering, the patch dropped for us too.
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