Larian Studios
Posted By: GM4Him Short Rest Poll - 22/04/22 09:51 PM
This one should be easy. Basically, many special abilities and such are reset during Short Rests (like the fighter's Action Surge and Second Wind). So, they need to be limited in some fashion. However, should that limit be such a hard limit as only 2 per day? This is kind of pointless since Long Rest is unlimited. Why not long rest instead of short rest since you get more benefits from long rest? I mean, the current system kind of discourages short rest because there really isn't as much benefit from it. You can fast travel from just about anywhere to any camp and long rest at any time. So...

But, regardless of long rest limitations, this poll is about how many Short Rests should Larian allow players to have per Long Rest?

1. Unlimited
2. 2
3. 3
4. 4
5. 5 or more
6. Limited by Hit Dice. You get 1 Hit Die per Character Level per character per Long Rest. If you have even 1 Hit Die, you can heal, regain special abilities, etc. If you run out of Hit Dice, you can't gain the benefits of a Short Rest. Something LIKE this. Doesn't have to be exactly like this, but something similar using Hit Dice to limit how many Short Rests a player can use.
7. Limited by Camping Supplies - Basically, Short Rests also cost camping supplies. However, the cost of a Short Rest is much less than the cost of a Long Rest. So, it is still beneficial to Short Rest more than Long Rest, but it is limited by camping supply costs as opposed to a hard number limit. Thus, in order to short rest, you need to keep camping supplies on you, at least enough to short rest.
8. Limited by something else.

Basically, again, this is not about Long Rest. I mean, they are related, but ultimately if you don't want them to change the number of limits for Short Rest but focus mainly on limiting Long Rest in some way, just vote for 2.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Short Rest Poll - 22/04/22 09:57 PM
Dang! I meant to make it so you could select multiple and then provide your reasoning why you chose multiple. Oh well.

I prefer Hit Dice because that puts full strategy into the hands of the players. It also means you could have more short rests at higher levels when you might need them more - unless you get really beat up during a particular fight.

Imagine a player at level 8. They could take 8 short rests per day, spreading them out because they have 8 Hit Dice and could only use 1 per short rest. However, if they get hit hard and need to heal more after a particular fight, they might spend most or all of their hit dice in 1 short rest. Thus, not able to have as many that particular day because a single battle (or two) was really tough.

However, I would also not mind something else like a camping supply cost. I just think 2 is not enough and doesn't encourage short resting enough.
Posted By: Tuco Re: Short Rest Poll - 22/04/22 10:07 PM
I have to admit I don't really give much of a damn about the balance of short rest. It's nowhere near as impactful as long rest in the grand scheme of things.

Asking how many times you should be allowed to do one is a bit weird, though, since it really depends on how the game is going to be balanced in the end (how frequent will fights be in a certain area? How threatening? Are we getting proper passage of time or not? Does it matter in any way? Etc.
Posted By: Wormerine Re: Short Rest Poll - 22/04/22 10:33 PM
I think as it is, it's alright, though I prefer how Solasta did it - feels a bit more impactful, and easier to understand what you get, and how each class differs.

Originally Posted by GM4Him
I just think 2 is not enough and doesn't encourage short resting enough.
With story content being tied to long rests, I don't think you want to discourage long resting any more - at least I don't want to discourage myself from long resting.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Short Rest Poll - 22/04/22 10:48 PM
Originally Posted by Wormerine
I think as it is, it's alright, though I prefer how Solasta did it - feels a bit more impactful, and easier to understand what you get, and how each class differs.

Originally Posted by GM4Him
I just think 2 is not enough and doesn't encourage short resting enough.
With story content being tied to long rests, I don't think you want to discourage long resting any more - at least I don't want to discourage myself from long resting.

Yes. Well. That's a whole separate issue.

See? I didn't include that like I wanted because people didn't want me to combine things. I was going to do 1 poll with options for Long Rest, short rest and dialogue tied to short rest, etc.

Ugh. I can't win.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Short Rest Poll - 23/04/22 07:06 AM
Hit dices sounds the most fun ...
ON the other hand they add yet another mechanic to watch. :-/

So i voted fo Camp Supplies.
Posted By: Maximuuus Re: Short Rest Poll - 23/04/22 02:54 PM
In the end, i'm not sure limiting short rest is really necessary... The RAW hit dice system create a limit by itself.
It doesn't require additionnal rules / mechanical limitations imo.

If we don't regain HP when we short rest because we're totally out of hit dices, players will have to long rest soon. So I voted 6 but for "something similar" in mind.


Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Hit dices sounds the most fun ...
ON the other hand they add yet another mechanic to watch. :-/

"It sounds funnier but I don't want more fun if it require any effort"
Posted By: fallenj Re: Short Rest Poll - 23/04/22 04:41 PM
Hit Dice sounded thought out and unique, +1

Edit* Glad to see polls getting used finally
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Short Rest Poll - 23/04/22 08:33 PM
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
"It sounds funnier but I don't want more fun if it require any effort"
Its certainly one way to read it ...
Personaly i preffer it sounds fun ... but since i know that many ideas can sound fun on paper, but are not so fun in the game ... i would need to see some real model of Larian implementation, before i would give it my vote. smile

I allready know food suplies, and i kinda like them ... so ... easy choice for me. wink
Posted By: Maximuuus Re: Short Rest Poll - 23/04/22 08:52 PM
And you would really like to manage food supply even more ? because you'd always need to have some in your inventory to short rest...
I "kinda like" the food supply system too...

But I'd rather have to watch a new easy and gameplay-wise interresting mechanic than having to manage my inventory even more...

(actual food supply system = inventory management and nothing more)
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Short Rest Poll - 23/04/22 09:28 PM
Well ... honestly?
Since i find sending all food to camp to be basicaly exploit ...
And since i find going for food every time i want to rest kinda anoying ...

I dont do either. smile
I allways have single character that is mainly "food carrier" instead. laugh
(No i dont gather all food that is in the game, but i keep somehow "healthy" amount i presume would be fitting ... usualy i have around 60-70 units on me at all time. smile Even tho i missjudged few times allready, but then i just make partial rest, focus on food a little more and go rest again once my resources are gone. laugh )

So it would make no difference for me. wink smile
Posted By: avahZ Darkwood Re: Short Rest Poll - 24/04/22 04:43 PM
Tie the story in with the short rest in some fashion like the long rest(and do random encounters) and I will be happy however it’s implemented…
Posted By: Van'tal Re: Short Rest Poll - 01/05/22 04:58 PM
UNLIMITED POWER!

Its the RAW after all.
Posted By: virion Re: Short Rest Poll - 14/05/22 06:07 AM
I voted " Limited by something else".

Since you can hardly predict party composition and tailor the entire game for all possible classes combinations I think the best solution is simply to have it as it is right now ( 2 uses + virtually unlimited long rest) and restricted in some areas with prior info for player how his ressources should be distributed.

" We won't be able to rest if we go there until we do X,Y,Z and Z is the ultimate goal/boss whatever". If you decide to leave you" fail " the quest in a way with no possiblity to come back for instance. A " localised " sleeping denial creates a closed environment you can control and balance with relative ease to not be a " brick wall" impossible to go throught for some party compositions. You avoid a game with a " dead end" with no possible solution. And yet you reward good ressource management in the light of this closed environment. In this particular case you can adjust the encounter to the existing sleeping mechanics(Only short rest, no long rest for instance).

On the scale of the entire game however .... how do you want to limit short rest? On what basis? You can short rest 6 times? 20 times? Why not unlimited? You can't have arguments for or against in a situation where you simply do not know what challenges the player will be facing at a given time. The resting systems replenishes player's ressources so he can deal with the challenge on the map. The player currently can sleep virtually endlessly because all challenges on the map (if put together) are infinitely outclassing a 4 men party capabilities. And you don't know in what order the player will approach them. You have a limited control over starting ressources(Level design is the answer here, obviously you can make it in such a way you will predict player's movement.But you will never cover all scenarios with level design. You can't create a dead end when the only solution is "reload and don't fail the roll this time").

I think you asked the wrong question. Instead of asking " Should short rest be limited?" I would rather say " Should resting be limited?". In that case I provided the answer above. I hope we agree for the most part.
As far as Larian goes they seem to do it more or less this way.....only they aren't implementing the long rest limitations even for the biggest battles. Instead they implement " very big battles" as a culminating ressource management test.


Example:
Goblin camp assault or Druid Grove assault should be 100% a case of no long rest until we get rid of X,Y,Z[We need to open the gate, get our soldiers in and seize control of the main druid lair]. If you leave the battle vicinity prior to accomplishing the final goal you could be issued a warning and if you make the explicit choice to leave the battle should default to a pre-defined end and the player should face the consequences of his actions. Wheter positive or negative is a matter of personal preference of the quest designer.
Such a fight would be the moment to use the items you found + scrolls to overcome potential failed rolls on spells or defensive rolls. A success should have extra flavor. Even if only partial( player opens the gate, get Minthara's troops in the Druid grove but gets rekt so badly he decides to leave the battle and long rest. As he comes back Minthara is salty but despite her losses you still got her in and she can't deny it.

Voila voila.
Posted By: Rhobar121 Re: Short Rest Poll - 14/05/22 08:54 AM
A short rest should just heal your team to 100%.
This would make it really make sense to click this button instead of using the long rest.
The current amount of healing is sadly low.
Posted By: Maximuuus Re: Short Rest Poll - 14/05/22 11:52 AM
Originally Posted by Rhobar121
A short rest should just heal your team to 100%.
This would make it really make sense to click this button instead of using the long rest.
The current amount of healing is sadly low.

With hit dices the players could choose to be fully healed or not. A button to be 100% healed without any other mechanic would not make sense AT ALL...
Posted By: Rhobar121 Re: Short Rest Poll - 14/05/22 02:26 PM
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Originally Posted by Rhobar121
A short rest should just heal your team to 100%.
This would make it really make sense to click this button instead of using the long rest.
The current amount of healing is sadly low.

With hit dices the players could choose to be fully healed or not. A button to be 100% healed without any other mechanic would not make sense AT ALL...

Why not? The arguments like "it's not how RAW works" is useless. If you might as well use a long rest to heal your hp then why waste time and use a short rest.
Changing the short rest would make it a profitable button, it is not always worth wasting time on a long rest, especially if you do not need to replenish resources apart from hp.
Posted By: Maximuuus Re: Short Rest Poll - 14/05/22 04:41 PM
Originally Posted by Rhobar121
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Originally Posted by Rhobar121
A short rest should just heal your team to 100%.
This would make it really make sense to click this button instead of using the long rest.
The current amount of healing is sadly low.

With hit dices the players could choose to be fully healed or not. A button to be 100% healed without any other mechanic would not make sense AT ALL...

Why not? The arguments like "it's not how RAW works" is useless. If you might as well use a long rest to heal your hp then why waste time and use a short rest.
Changing the short rest would make it a profitable button, it is not always worth wasting time on a long rest, especially if you do not need to replenish resources apart from hp.

It's not about RAW or not, it's just that a button to heal yourself is a stupid and uninterresting mechanic gameplay-wise.

Healing cost some ressources in some games (i.e potions to manage), have some requirement in others (i.e healing spots to find) and is free in other (i.e auto replenish after combats).

Short rest is neither free, neither a ressource to manage. Being able to be fully healed faster twice (short rests) before being able to be fully healed a bit slower (long rest) doesn't make any sense gameplay-wise, as you said in other words.

RAW suggest something else. You may like it or not but it make sense gameplay-wise. I agree that the system as is in BG3 doesn't.
That's why adding hit dices (a ressource to manage) eventually with an "auto roll" option for Icelyn and Ragnarok would be very good imo.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Short Rest Poll - 14/05/22 05:05 PM
One of the problems out here is that people kinda keep separating Long and Short Rest mechanics as if they are separate issues. They are 1 issue.

Bottom line is, for Short Rest to even be valuable, Long Rest needs to be discouraged and Short Rest promoted. As is, there is no meaning in short resting because you can long rest as much as you want without any penalty at all, and the cost is so astronomically low that it hardly limits long rest in any way.

So why bother short resting? There is literally no value in it.
Posted By: virion Re: Short Rest Poll - 15/05/22 12:18 AM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
One of the problems out here is that people kinda keep separating Long and Short Rest mechanics as if they are separate issues. They are 1 issue.

Bottom line is, for Short Rest to even be valuable, Long Rest needs to be discouraged and Short Rest promoted. As is, there is no meaning in short resting because you can long rest as much as you want without any penalty at all, and the cost is so astronomically low that it hardly limits long rest in any way.

So why bother short resting? There is literally no value in it.

There could be meaning to short rest if long rest is forbidden under certain circumstances. To make the entire game revolve around long term ressource management would mean to build the entire map differently after me. Just leave it as it is , make some " management challenges" here and there for those who enjoy it and problem solved after me. Best option they have UNLESS Larian is planning a drastically different game to what EA is currently showing us. I doubt it though.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Short Rest Poll - 15/05/22 03:13 AM
What good is short rest at all? Just cut it from the game if you don't limit long rest at all.

Why short rest when you can:

1. literally long rest after every fight and regain ALL your special abilities, health, spell slots, etc. instead of only some health and no spell slots.
2. You get more opportunities to have companion dialogue with long rest.
3. There is nothing stopping you from long rest. NOTHING. No time limits, no penalties, random encounters, NOTHING.
4. Switch companions at camp during long rests.
5. Store stuff at camp during long rests.

So tell me, what benefit is there at all in short resting? Seriously. In current state, what is the point?

The only reason short rest exists in BG3 is because it is a 5e rule. There is literally no other benefit.

So either give short rest meaning or cut it completely from the game. That's what I say.
Posted By: Alealexi Re: Short Rest Poll - 16/05/22 05:23 PM
I choose unlimited because there is no limit to how many short rests you can take in 5e but you just won't heal when you run out of hit dice.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Short Rest Poll - 17/05/22 01:24 AM
Originally Posted by Alealexi
I choose unlimited because there is no limit to how many short rests you can take in 5e but you just won't heal when you run out of hit dice.

Ah, but you do have a DM who limits short rests based on scenarios. For example, in Descent into Avernus, I did not allow players to short rest as they were making their way through the lair of the Dead Three except at one point where it made sense that they might pull it off, and even then they risked a random encounter chance that some cultist might happen upon them in their lair while they were resting for an hour.

You have nothing like that in BG3. Nothing.

Likewise, a DM would keep individuals from long resting even though there are no actual long rest limits. In my example for Descent, I also didn't let them long rest until after they were entirely finished with the cultist lair.
Posted By: Rhobar121 Re: Short Rest Poll - 17/05/22 02:40 AM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Originally Posted by Alealexi
I choose unlimited because there is no limit to how many short rests you can take in 5e but you just won't heal when you run out of hit dice.

Ah, but you do have a DM who limits short rests based on scenarios. For example, in Descent into Avernus, I did not allow players to short rest as they were making their way through the lair of the Dead Three except at one point where it made sense that they might pull it off, and even then they risked a random encounter chance that some cultist might happen upon them in their lair while they were resting for an hour.

You have nothing like that in BG3. Nothing.

Likewise, a DM would keep individuals from long resting even though there are no actual long rest limits. In my example for Descent, I also didn't let them long rest until after they were entirely finished with the cultist lair.


You see, you were a GM and you could adjust campaigns to your group.
I suspect that if any of the fights went very badly, you would either allow the rest or customize the rest of the fights so as not to kill the group.
Well, unless you're one of those GMs who are aiming to kill everyone (but that's not important).
If only someone figured out a way to add GM to the game it would be perfect.
So far, no one has managed to come up with a sensible way to limit the rest that could satisfy most players.
Coming up with something good has been a problem almost always. I don't remember a game where this was actually achieved satisfactorily.
Usually, however, developers prefer to give up and not even try, which in my opinion is sometimes good for the game (POE1 vs POE2)
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Short Rest Poll - 17/05/22 03:32 AM
I still think it can be done, but the problem is two-fold. First, there are seemingly too many that are afraid of timed events. Second, Larian is probably afraid to try something liked timed events because it seems many people are resistant to it and they don't want to lose their fans. (Understandably so.)

But I fully believe it could be done well if people would give it a chance. I have a hard time believing that you can't simulate a DM in a lot of ways.

Here's an example of how I think it could be done in BG3:

You crash on beach. Full health. Day 1 starts. Long and Short Rests are locked. Can't do them. You meet SH and explore the area. Intellect devourer fight. DM unlocks Short Rest but Long Rest is locked unless total party spell slot count is less than 25%. It's just you and SH. Let's say combined spell slot total of 4, and you used 2. Larian as DM sets it up so that you could probably survive the next several encounters with that many spell slots and using some Hit Dice to recover HP, especially knowing Astarion and Gale are just around some corners.

Oh, but you bypass Astarion and never meet him. You also run into trouble with the fisherman. If your party has less than 25% Hit Dice and less than 50% HP OR spell slots lower than 25%, long rest unlocks. Because HP was reduced to less than 50% and no more Hit Dice, probably because you didn't add another party member, you need a long rest. The DM, the game, has analyzed that you need a long rest. You will likely not make it if you keep going.

And as far as timed events go, I've given plenty of examples. You take three long rests after learning about the ritual at the grove. Suddenly, on the fourth morning, you are met by a tiefling who tells you the ritual has been delayed. Rath interrupted it, and now he's locked up. You can either rescue him or simply leave him. It's your choice. Consequence is Rath won't help you fight Kagha unless you sneak in and break him out or prove Kagha is bad. Benefit? You get three more days to stop the ritual. After two days, someone else interrupts the ceremony, buying you more time, but now THEY are in trouble. Security in the Grove is also tighter. Tensions are mounting. Benefit? 3 more days to save the grove.

Basically, what would a DM do if players were trying to abuse resting?

A. Not allow it at certain points in the story.
B. Provide soft consequences - ones that don't ruin the main story but might make things a bit more challenging to the players; events that make sense from a story perspective.

They actually did do some of this originally, but I didn't realize it until too late. If you rested immediately, origin characters would heckle you. "Why are we resting? We have tadpoles in our heads."

The problem was, Larian didn't follow through with this. Soft reminders you are resting too much could be dreams with the dream lover. It could be people threatening to leave the party or threatening to take matters into their own hands. I mean, there are SO many ways to do it besides hard limits.
Posted By: mrfuji3 Re: Short Rest Poll - 17/05/22 03:37 AM
Originally Posted by Rhobar121
Usually, however, developers prefer to give up and not even try, which in my opinion is sometimes good for the game (POE1 vs POE2)
The key point here is that said developers (hopefully) try to balance their game around not including resting restrictions, often either by making encounters more difficult so that long resting frequently doesn't make the game trivial, or by implementing cooldown-based abilities.

The problem with D&D 5e is that it has 2 types of rests, so the former solution doesn't quite work. So if Larian wants to preserve balance between classes, they either have to implement rest restrictions or make some serious changes to classes so that they're all balanced around long rests. But people would almost certainly rage even harder if Larian changed BG3 combat to cooldown-based.

Originally Posted by Rhobar121
So far, no one has managed to come up with a sensible way to limit the rest that could satisfy most players.
Coming up with something good has been a problem almost always. I don't remember a game where this was actually achieved satisfactorily
I can turn this around and say that it doesn't seem like Larian's solution satisfies most players either, at least going by responses on this forum. Who's to say if Larian's (lack of a solution) is better than any of these hypotheticals? Also, D&D 5e (and its dual-rest system) doesn't have many video game adaptations, so it's not like that many solutions have been attempted. Maybe there's a relatively easy-to-implement restriction that satisfies more people than no restriction.
Posted By: Icelyn Re: Short Rest Poll - 17/05/22 03:58 AM
Originally Posted by Rhobar121
So far, no one has managed to come up with a sensible way to limit the rest that could satisfy most players.
Coming up with something good has been a problem almost always. I don't remember a game where this was actually achieved satisfactorily.
Usually, however, developers prefer to give up and not even try, which in my opinion is sometimes good for the game (POE1 vs POE2)
👍
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Short Rest Poll - 17/05/22 05:46 AM
I just don't get it. If you're playing a legit RPG, the GM would be the one restricting recovery, no matter the rpg.

Star Wars Fantasy Flights had stim packs and such. 5 HP for first use, 4 for second, 3 for third, 2 for fourth and 1 for fifth. After that, GM would limit players by saying, "You haven't reached a good resting location yet," aka a ship, cantina, etc.

In a campaign where you can backtrack to a particular base of operations, the GM will still limit how often the players can rest in ways that can be put into a video game.

Let's toss time events out completely. This would ONLY happen in campaigns where time doesn't impact the story. (BG3, I might add, has various story elements that are timely, such as the ritual, Lae'zel's patience in regards to getting cured, Wyll wanting to save Mizora, etc., But I digress).

A DM would evaluate his/her player characters to determine if they can keep going. If not, he develops a logical way to give them a chance to recover so he doesn't kill them.

Again, this can be done in a video game. Let's say you're whole party is half health and you decide to go into the spider lair. Game assesses the probability of surviving if they continue. Half HP. Not full spell slots. No chance.

THAT'S when you have a party member say, "I'm not sure it's a good idea to continue. Maybe we should return here when we're fully rested. This place looks like it'll kill us.". Long rest unlocks. Hint hint.

You're approaching the bulette's area. You're 3/4 HP and 1/2 spell slots. Same thing. Game warns you to rest first. Rest unlocks.

But, what if you long rest and then turn around and leave? THAT is when you hit them with something like a random encounter moment. While they were resting, something happens. More ogres come to Moonhaven. Wolves infest the town. Boggles invade your camp. So, sure, you tried to take advantage of the DM letting you know you should rest before fighting the spiders, but you'll pay for it in some way since you turned around and left instead.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Short Rest Poll - 17/05/22 06:26 AM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Long Rest is locked unless total party spell slot count is less than 25%.
I thought that main reason for limiting Long rests is to teach player to manage their resources ...

With this model you would be encouraged to do exact oposite ... spend all spellslots as fast as possible in order to be allowed to rest. O_o
Posted By: Wormerine Re: Short Rest Poll - 17/05/22 06:48 AM
Originally Posted by Rhobar121
If only someone figured out a way to add GM to the game it would be perfect.
Now when you mention, that’s not impossible, and possibly the best solution I have heard thus far, thought that’s a potential idea for another game. Adaptive difficulty is an old trick - resident evils did that, I am pretty sure Naughty Dog does that. They do it with supplies but the same system could be adapted for dishing out camping supplies, assuming the resting would be restricted by camp supplies (and I mean restricted - in a way PoE1 or Kingmaker is). There is no way an actual large scale global resource management can be implemented in an RPG like that without being too punishing or too meaningless. Something that creates a feeling of scavenging for resources to rest, without actual putting players in too much danger of running out (and not telling them of course) sounds like the most ideal solution.


Originally Posted by Rhobar121
Usually, however, developers prefer to give up and not even try, which in my opinion is sometimes good for the game (POE1 vs POE2)
I still don’t know how I feel about this one. i definitely prefer PoE2 combat over PoE1 but I am not sure how much it has to do with polished mechanics, and how much with just better crafted and varied encounters. Per-encounter design made individual PoE2 encounters more interesting, but on the other hand Obsidian struggled with making good boss fight in that system. DLCs and megabosses somewhat succeeded but they too often turned out into lengthy slogs in order to make a dent in player’s resources. So I think it solved some problems, and introduced new ones.
Posted By: Flooter Re: Short Rest Poll - 17/05/22 07:05 AM
Note: I wrote this yesterday but didn’t click “post reply”. The conversation has moved on a little, sorry about that.

Originally Posted by GM4Him
So tell me, what benefit is there at all in short resting? Seriously. In current state, what is the point?
It gives back hp, warlock spell slots and recharges some items with a single click and no wait. Most of the benefits you cite for long rests can be acheived by teleporting to camp during the day, except for the big one: full hp and ability restoration. That one costs supplies.

I fully acknowledge that the cost of a long rest is so far outstripped by food availability that this cost is effectively negligible. However, it takes sooo many clicks to pick supplies up, send them to camp, find the stupid traveler’s chest, pick the correct amount of food up, go back to the fire and then go to bed. Short rests beat long ones by a country mile on that front.

Assuming V1.0 streamlines the eating process, I would still use the available short rests every day because I enjoy wringing the most out of my ressources. I like taking a chance on a cantrip to preserve a spell slot for another skirmish later on that day. I like how short rests combo with Hex, Armour of Agathys and Hellish Rebuke. I like going all out with every last drop of power at my disposal because I’m out of short rests so this is the last fight of the day.
Posted By: D1spl@yN@me Re: Short Rest Poll - 17/05/22 07:09 AM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
So tell me, what benefit is there at all in short resting? Seriously. In current state, what is the point?

i'm going to hit the short rest button, because i don't want to wait around (fiddling with objects and loading screens), i want to get +10 or 20 HP back fast, and just keep adventuring..
Posted By: mr_planescapist Re: Short Rest Poll - 17/05/22 07:28 AM
In P&P I HATE when the DM allows unlimited resting whenever. To a point Im not playing. Be creative and challenging man!
BG2 was bad in that regard but it STILL had some immersive limitations (go to an inn, outside city...) and thank god for that mod that brought random encounters if you camped too much.

Larian and 90% of modern RPG players here must be dying inside to get auto health refil and auto spell refil and auto xxx refil after each encounters. No point to rest, its just another <<TEDIOUS GAMEPLAY ELEMENT>>. Wait, health bars? yet another <<TEDIOUS GAMEPLAY ELEMENT>>, lets just make everyone invincible. I mean why do we even have a MAP to move around, yet another <<TEDIOUS GAMEPLAY ELEMENT>>let just quick jump from encounter to encounters......

I regress.
But since this has to be D&D to some degree...We have the Larianised pointless non substantial sugar coated <CAMPING/RESTING>, where FOOD is the annoying gimmick.

DOS2 was popular for a reason.

I say : UNLIMITED but with IMMERSIVE LIMITATIONS. BG3 will be a better RPG game for it.
Limit camping with actual logical fantasy world reasons...
For instance:

there is goblins or xxxx in the area, if you camp = chance of a cool random encounters.
Extremely bad weather = very limited camping (short rest).
Super rough terrain/deadly area NO CAMPING.
You are on a timer/rush to have to do something NO CAMPING.
In the city, ONLY INNS or inside empty building.
Environment hazards if you camp in caves/near rivers/cliffs
etc...

I don't want to play a convenient RPG game in Faerun, I WANT TO BE IN Faerun. Larian, immerse us!
Remember that game Riven (Sequel to Myst)? I never played Riven. I VISITED RIVEN. Thats how I hope RPGs can positively evolve : with immersion.
Posted By: Rhobar121 Re: Short Rest Poll - 17/05/22 11:08 AM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
I still think it can be done, but the problem is two-fold. First, there are seemingly too many that are afraid of timed events. Second, Larian is probably afraid to try something liked timed events because it seems many people are resistant to it and they don't want to lose their fans. (Understandably so.)

But I fully believe it could be done well if people would give it a chance. I have a hard time believing that you can't simulate a DM in a lot of ways.

Here's an example of how I think it could be done in BG3:

You crash on beach. Full health. Day 1 starts. Long and Short Rests are locked. Can't do them. You meet SH and explore the area. Intellect devourer fight. DM unlocks Short Rest but Long Rest is locked unless total party spell slot count is less than 25%. It's just you and SH. Let's say combined spell slot total of 4, and you used 2. Larian as DM sets it up so that you could probably survive the next several encounters with that many spell slots and using some Hit Dice to recover HP, especially knowing Astarion and Gale are just around some corners.

Oh, but you bypass Astarion and never meet him. You also run into trouble with the fisherman. If your party has less than 25% Hit Dice and less than 50% HP OR spell slots lower than 25%, long rest unlocks. Because HP was reduced to less than 50% and no more Hit Dice, probably because you didn't add another party member, you need a long rest. The DM, the game, has analyzed that you need a long rest. You will likely not make it if you keep going.

And as far as timed events go, I've given plenty of examples. You take three long rests after learning about the ritual at the grove. Suddenly, on the fourth morning, you are met by a tiefling who tells you the ritual has been delayed. Rath interrupted it, and now he's locked up. You can either rescue him or simply leave him. It's your choice. Consequence is Rath won't help you fight Kagha unless you sneak in and break him out or prove Kagha is bad. Benefit? You get three more days to stop the ritual. After two days, someone else interrupts the ceremony, buying you more time, but now THEY are in trouble. Security in the Grove is also tighter. Tensions are mounting. Benefit? 3 more days to save the grove.

Basically, what would a DM do if players were trying to abuse resting?

A. Not allow it at certain points in the story.
B. Provide soft consequences - ones that don't ruin the main story but might make things a bit more challenging to the players; events that make sense from a story perspective.

They actually did do some of this originally, but I didn't realize it until too late. If you rested immediately, origin characters would heckle you. "Why are we resting? We have tadpoles in our heads."

The problem was, Larian didn't follow through with this. Soft reminders you are resting too much could be dreams with the dream lover. It could be people threatening to leave the party or threatening to take matters into their own hands. I mean, there are SO many ways to do it besides hard limits.


You haven't fully thought through one thing, and that is the number of possible permutations.
The game already provides a huge number of possible options or reactions to the player's actions, and the events you are talking about would require much more.
I don't know if it would just be too much for them to finish this game in a reasonable time, and the budget is hardly made of rubber.
More complexity also means more potential bugs, so that it does not end in a disaster on the WotR level (at the premiere it was barely possible to complete it or not).
One more thing is that the big changes in act 1 will make the later acts much worse (like in every game Larian made).

As for the other limitation, it is exactly as mentioned by Ragnarok.
Ultimately, the effect is completely opposite to what was expected.
If you can't rest when you have too many slots for spells, why not use them all in one fight or burn them all when you want to rest.
Limiting HP is also not a problem, lowering your hp to an appropriate level is not a problem at all.
Theoretically, the solution was the CD, but here we enter the area where the game is potentially irritating.
Posted By: Rhobar121 Re: Short Rest Poll - 17/05/22 11:20 AM
Originally Posted by Wormerine
Originally Posted by Rhobar121
If only someone figured out a way to add GM to the game it would be perfect.
Now when you mention, that’s not impossible, and possibly the best solution I have heard thus far, thought that’s a potential idea for another game. Adaptive difficulty is an old trick - resident evils did that, I am pretty sure Naughty Dog does that. They do it with supplies but the same system could be adapted for dishing out camping supplies, assuming the resting would be restricted by camp supplies (and I mean restricted - in a way PoE1 or Kingmaker is). There is no way an actual large scale global resource management can be implemented in an RPG like that without being too punishing or too meaningless. Something that creates a feeling of scavenging for resources to rest, without actual putting players in too much danger of running out (and not telling them of course) sounds like the most ideal solution.


Originally Posted by Rhobar121
Usually, however, developers prefer to give up and not even try, which in my opinion is sometimes good for the game (POE1 vs POE2)
I still don’t know how I feel about this one. i definitely prefer PoE2 combat over PoE1 but I am not sure how much it has to do with polished mechanics, and how much with just better crafted and varied encounters. Per-encounter design made individual PoE2 encounters more interesting, but on the other hand Obsidian struggled with making good boss fight in that system. DLCs and megabosses somewhat succeeded but they too often turned out into lengthy slogs in order to make a dent in player’s resources. So I think it solved some problems, and introduced new ones.


At least for me, Deadfire is definitely a better game than PoE1. I wasn't even able to finish the first part, which is unusual for me because I usually finish even very long games.
Fighting in PoE1 was terrible and I made a mistake and played on a high level of difficulty.
Not only was the game not difficult in any way (you could win 90% of the fights using exactly the same spells), you were also tormented by hordes of trash as in Diablo.
Add to that the ubiquitous backtracking (limit to 2 rests) and the gameplay is not very pleasant.
The rest of the game elements were also not very interesting.
In PoE2 they fixed most of the problems (apart from the story which was also boring).
I bet the poor sales of Deadfire have a lot to do with the dubious quality of PoE1, the game finally sold on a wave of nostalgia for the old games on IE. Because the game was what it was, most didn't even buy a sequel
Posted By: Wormerine Re: Short Rest Poll - 17/05/22 07:11 PM
Originally Posted by Rhobar121
Add to that the ubiquitous backtracking (limit to 2 rests) and the gameplay is not very pleasant.
That's what I mean. It didn't work. I did 3 playthroughs of PoE1 and I am pretty sure I never backtracked for new supplies.

I love PoE1 to death, but it was "like butter scraped over too much bread" as Bilbo would say. I am itching for another full PoE1&2 playthrough - easily my favourite cRPGs since IE games.
Posted By: Rhobar121 Re: Short Rest Poll - 17/05/22 07:39 PM
Originally Posted by Wormerine
Originally Posted by Rhobar121
Add to that the ubiquitous backtracking (limit to 2 rests) and the gameplay is not very pleasant.
That's what I mean. It didn't work. I did 3 playthroughs of PoE1 and I am pretty sure I never backtracked for new supplies.

I love PoE1 to death, but it was "like butter scraped over too much bread" as Bilbo would say. I am itching for another full PoE1&2 playthrough - easily my favourite cRPGs since IE games.

Depends on the difficulty level, in the lower levels you could have taken more supplies with you.
Worst of all, there is a huge dungeon in the game that I completely hated.
Posted By: Wormerine Re: Short Rest Poll - 17/05/22 09:50 PM
Originally Posted by Rhobar121
Depends on the difficulty level, in the lower levels you could have taken more supplies with you.
Worst of all, there is a huge dungeon in the game that I completely hated.
Ah, right. Never played below veteran, or whatever "hard" was called.

Yeah, Endless Dungeon of Caed Nua - one of many PoE kickstarter promises that shouldn't have been made. Cool concept and cool story. Cool visual design. Way, way too long and far too few unique encoutners.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Short Rest Poll - 17/05/22 10:48 PM
As far as various player attempts to cheat and injure themselves and their party in order to reduce their health so that rest is unlocked, another rule could be easily implemented. If you injure your fellow comrades, it is an immediate loss of relationship with them. If your relationship with them is reduced too low, they will leave the party. In this way, players would be penalized for going around and hurting themselves and their companions in order to reduce HP enough to unlock a long rest or short rest.

So, what I said before could be done to limit resting. Set the system up so that it does a basic evaluation of character stats in the group, including health and spells. After they reach a certain percentage of total party spell slots or health, a rest is unlocked. Purposefully injuring oneself or the party decreases party relationships and eventually will cause the party to split.

The suggestion is not meant to be absolute specific. It's not like I went and worked through all the details. It's the concept I was trying to convey. So maybe you don't base it just off of spell slots. Maybe you don't just base it off of HP. Maybe there needs to be a combination of them. The point is that either way larion could set up the system so that it evaluates the party's strength and allows rest to be unlocked once their strength level has reached a certain percentage of a total, so that they have the ability to rest before the game knows that they are about to go through some sort of big fight. Just like a DM would do.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Short Rest Poll - 17/05/22 11:15 PM
In terms of timed events, it wouldn't necessarily require that much more work. There aren't a ton of options to implement.

1. Ritual. After x days, an event occurs. You are notified that Rath interrupted it. He's locked up. No cinematic required. Someone appears at camp and let's you know. Doesn't even need voice acting. They COULD do all that, mind you, but it's not necessary. X days later, tieflings are expelled by force. Now they are at your camp with nowhere else to go. You still have a merchant, etc. You just can't access the grove because you long rested WAY too much... And I mean WAY too much.

2. Goblin leaders. After x number of days, you are warned. Goblins were seen lurking close to the grove. They may have found it the secret entrance. Hurry. Kill the leaders before it's too late. Who knows when the attack will come. X days later, the attack occurs.

THAT is just two examples. Doesn't need to be huge.
Posted By: Rhobar121 Re: Short Rest Poll - 18/05/22 12:18 AM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
As far as various player attempts to cheat and injure themselves and their party in order to reduce their health so that rest is unlocked, another rule could be easily implemented. If you injure your fellow comrades, it is an immediate loss of relationship with them. If your relationship with them is reduced too low, they will leave the party. In this way, players would be penalized for going around and hurting themselves and their companions in order to reduce HP enough to unlock a long rest or short rest.

So, what I said before could be done to limit resting. Set the system up so that it does a basic evaluation of character stats in the group, including health and spells. After they reach a certain percentage of total party spell slots or health, a rest is unlocked. Purposefully injuring oneself or the party decreases party relationships and eventually will cause the party to split.

The suggestion is not meant to be absolute specific. It's not like I went and worked through all the details. It's the concept I was trying to convey. So maybe you don't base it just off of spell slots. Maybe you don't just base it off of HP. Maybe there needs to be a combination of them. The point is that either way larion could set up the system so that it evaluates the party's strength and allows rest to be unlocked once their strength level has reached a certain percentage of a total, so that they have the ability to rest before the game knows that they are about to go through some sort of big fight. Just like a DM would do.

It will be quite easy to avoid. You don't even have to attack anyone to deal damage to them.
Fall damage is enough. Okay, you can also block it, but there is one thing that cannot be blocked sensibly.
These are surface damage. It's hard for it to actually loss approval for obvious reasons.

Again, such a system can be complicated because it would have to consider different classes.
As for me, a lot of work and the profit from it is practically none.

It will be surprising if the rest is somehow limited in the end, because it completely contradicts how most developers have been designing games for over 20 years.
If you look at the most popular crpg, most of the time the rest restrictions are quite poor (not being able to rest when enemies are nearby, that's no restriction).
There have been a few games that have tried to implement these restrictions, but in the end, if the game got a sequel, these restrictions were virtually removed, or at least severely limited.
Even the newest Pahtfinder can be such an example.
Compared to the first game, in WotR you have practically endless rests.
Sometimes the game even forces you to rest a dozen times to unlock quests, because for some strange reason they appear after a certain amount of time.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Short Rest Poll - 18/05/22 04:44 AM
Surfaces only cause damage because the party is stupid enough to walk into them. This is something they need to fix anyway. Any surface you walk into that injures you SHOULD be a trap, which is a legit form of damage that shouldn't lower relationship points.

And why would such a system have to consider different classes? Keep it simple stupid.

If total party HP and spell slots is greater than 75%, Resting is locked.
If 25-74%, Short Rest is unlocked.
If less than 25% HP regardless of spell slots used, Long Rest is unlocked.
If approaching serious encounter, and less than 75%, Long Rest is unlocked and party members advise using it before continuing. This only happens the first time you approach the encounter. Use the Long Rest and then back away from the encounter and that's on you.

Example: Astarion, SH, Lae, Gale. Total HP for whole party is max 50. Total spell slots is maybe 10. They fight. Lose 10 HP between them. Used 4 spell slots between them. No rest unlocked because only 20% HP lost altogether and 40% spell slots. A bit more HP lost and Short Rest would be unlocked. They fight again. 20 HP lost and 3 more spell slots. Short Rest unlocked. Gale can now use Arcane Recovery, and party can use Hit Dice to gain HP back. Lae gets Action Surge and Second Wind again. SH gets Channel Divinity back. They fight and lose 40 HP. Long rest unlocked.

They fight the next day. Bam! Tough fight against gnolls. They have 25 HP left between them. Short Rest unlocked. They don't use it. They approach the Gith patrol. SH stops them. "I have a bad feeling about this. We should maybe rest before going there." Long Rest unlocks.
Posted By: mr_planescapist Re: Short Rest Poll - 18/05/22 01:37 PM
Originally Posted by Rhobar121
Originally Posted by Wormerine
Originally Posted by Rhobar121
If only someone figured out a way to add GM to the game it would be perfect.
Now when you mention, that’s not impossible, and possibly the best solution I have heard thus far, thought that’s a potential idea for another game. Adaptive difficulty is an old trick - resident evils did that, I am pretty sure Naughty Dog does that. They do it with supplies but the same system could be adapted for dishing out camping supplies, assuming the resting would be restricted by camp supplies (and I mean restricted - in a way PoE1 or Kingmaker is). There is no way an actual large scale global resource management can be implemented in an RPG like that without being too punishing or too meaningless. Something that creates a feeling of scavenging for resources to rest, without actual putting players in too much danger of running out (and not telling them of course) sounds like the most ideal solution.


Originally Posted by Rhobar121
Usually, however, developers prefer to give up and not even try, which in my opinion is sometimes good for the game (POE1 vs POE2)
I still don’t know how I feel about this one. i definitely prefer PoE2 combat over PoE1 but I am not sure how much it has to do with polished mechanics, and how much with just better crafted and varied encounters. Per-encounter design made individual PoE2 encounters more interesting, but on the other hand Obsidian struggled with making good boss fight in that system. DLCs and megabosses somewhat succeeded but they too often turned out into lengthy slogs in order to make a dent in player’s resources. So I think it solved some problems, and introduced new ones.


At least for me, Deadfire is definitely a better game than PoE1. I wasn't even able to finish the first part, which is unusual for me because I usually finish even very long games.
Fighting in PoE1 was terrible and I made a mistake and played on a high level of difficulty.
Not only was the game not difficult in any way (you could win 90% of the fights using exactly the same spells), you were also tormented by hordes of trash as in Diablo.
Add to that the ubiquitous backtracking (limit to 2 rests) and the gameplay is not very pleasant.
The rest of the game elements were also not very interesting.
In PoE2 they fixed most of the problems (apart from the story which was also boring).
I bet the poor sales of Deadfire have a lot to do with the dubious quality of PoE1, the game finally sold on a wave of nostalgia for the old games on IE. Because the game was what it was, most didn't even buy a sequel


Personally I adore Deadire. Yea the main storyline is so so and very short HOWEVER that is NOT how to play this game. I clearly was designed for you to explore the lore and get immersed in the world; and it works beautifully at that. When I play this game I completely ignore the main storyline lol. You have a boat load of stuff to explore and discover. And its my favorite looking crpg ever; even more so than BG3.
Posted By: MarcAbaddon Re: Short Rest Poll - 18/05/22 02:42 PM
I adore Deadfire as well - it's relative lack of success is really sad. I even like the main story - I can see why some people don't (in the end you don't really affect the outcome much), but I really love the plot and the involvement in the Gods. Given the PoE 1 relevation it is a bit ironic that the gods in Deadfire feel more like gods than in pretty much every other cRPG I played.
Posted By: Rhobar121 Re: Short Rest Poll - 18/05/22 03:04 PM
The problem with Deathfire is that the story is terribly short. From what I remember, there are only 3-4 main missions.
The rest is swimming around the islands.
I hope they will abandon this pseudo-philosophical writing in the next game, it was tiring for the first game.
After all, the game is still several times better than the first PoE.
Posted By: Sozz Re: Short Rest Poll - 18/05/22 03:49 PM
I had the misfortune of playing a cleric of Eothas in PoE and it really became a detriment to my enjoying both stories considering how integral Eothas is to the setting, and in the second game. The story kind of encourages you to have a certain view of the gods that I had been earnestly roleplaying against (unwittingly), but without really giving the options to you to come around to it gradually, like what happens in your Magran companion's story.

I recently replayed Deadfire again because I never played the ending with the added content, it still didn't quite hack it. It felt like anything, like the endings to the move A.I. or Bioshock Infinite, the story became so ungrounded that it kind of implodes into itself.

Josh Sawyer has some good talks about Pillars and Deadfire where I think he cops to a lot of the shortcomings in the story. The biggest thing I remember were the points he made about how the factions in Deadfire are very interesting, but aren't really tied to the main story, meaning that interest in the world can run counter to the narrative's impetus. Of course, considering how the game ends, maybe they were trying to make a point about temporal concerns.

This is the one I remember
at around 26:30 he gets into the post-mortem Nevermind that, I was just scrubbing through it and it's all pretty much post-mortem
Posted By: Wormerine Re: Short Rest Poll - 18/05/22 04:37 PM
Originally Posted by Rhobar121
The problem with Deathfire is that the story is terribly short. From what I remember, there are only 3-4 main missions.
The rest is swimming around the islands.
They are about 5 unskippable nods between intro and outro. What I don't understand is why people insist on "swimming around the islands" to not being part of the story - it's quality is on par with unskippable mission, it's really well explores the conflict happening in the region, and sets up important story beats of the Eothas storyline. I have my issues with PoE2 story (mainly lack of development, payoff and potential lack of PC's motivation depending on character you concieve) but it being short is definitely ain't one. The fact that big chunk of it is skippable is something that doesn't offend me in any way.

Originally Posted by Sozz
I had the misfortune of playing a cleric of Eothas in PoE and it really became a detriment to my enjoying both stories considering how integral Eothas is to the setting, and in the second game. The story kind of encourages you to have a certain view of the gods that I had been earnestly roleplaying against (unwittingly), but without really giving the options to you to come around to it gradually, like what happens in your Magran companion's story.
Do you mean that you feel you are expected to stand in opposition to Gods? I found it to be a common sentiment though I personally never felt that way - it all depends whenever your PC believes that your Kith would be better off without overseers or not. Personally, I found Thaos' argument at the end of PoE1 to be a compelling one - no matter if at the end I agree with him or not. Similarly, Eothas actions in PoE2 don't have to reflect your PCs believes, just as Thaos' didn't have to allign with yours - both characters justify their actions in disturbringly similar way, both bringing destruction to Eora in name of their own greater good. I did a playthrough with a character who remained faithful to gods, and I didn't find it narratively jarring. I imagine, through, that cleric of Eithas might not have enough reactivity to make him feel natural - such perpective should be very unique. Lukcily for me, Durance is such a great character, I can't justify making my PC a cleric.
Posted By: virion Re: Short Rest Poll - 18/05/22 04:52 PM
Originally Posted by Wormerine
Originally Posted by Rhobar121
The problem with Deathfire is that the story is terribly short. From what I remember, there are only 3-4 main missions.
The rest is swimming around the islands.
They are about 5 unskippable nods between intro and outro. What I don't understand is why people insist on "swimming around the islands" to not being part of the story - it's quality is on par with unskippable mission, it's really well explores the conflict happening in the region, and sets up important story beats of the Eothas storyline. I have my issues with PoE2 story (mainly lack of development, payoff and potential lack of PC's motivation depending on character you concieve) but it being short is definitely ain't one. The fact that big chunk of it is skippable is something that doesn't offend me in any way.

Originally Posted by Sozz
I had the misfortune of playing a cleric of Eothas in PoE and it really became a detriment to my enjoying both stories considering how integral Eothas is to the setting, and in the second game. The story kind of encourages you to have a certain view of the gods that I had been earnestly roleplaying against (unwittingly), but without really giving the options to you to come around to it gradually, like what happens in your Magran companion's story.
Do you mean that you feel you are expected to stand in opposition to Gods? I found it to be a common sentiment though I personally never felt that way - it all depends whenever your PC believes that your Kith would be better off without overseers or not. Personally, I found Thaos' argument at the end of PoE1 to be a compelling one - no matter if at the end I agree with him or not. Similarly, Eothas actions in PoE2 don't have to reflect your PCs believes, just as Thaos' didn't have to allign with yours - both characters justify their actions in disturbringly similar way, both bringing destruction to Eora in name of their own greater good. I did a playthrough with a character who remained faithful to gods, and I didn't find it narratively jarring. I imagine, through, that cleric of Eithas might not have enough reactivity to make him feel natural - such perpective should be very unique. Lukcily for me, Durance is such a great character, I can't justify making my PC a cleric.

Not too sure what Soz means here either. Poe2 was basically a story about defending the God's little " Cartel like" operation in the name of fear of change in my feeling ^^ Eothas wanted to give it's freedom back to humanity at the cost of God's power. Still... him being right or not doesn't change much since apparently no one can stop him( As far as I remember there was basically only one outcome and it was Eothas will. Played it so long ago I might be wrong here).

I never really understood the critics around POE2 as it seems to be very similar to Mass Effect series ending critics. People really seem to struggle with " bad" or rather " unchangable no matter what " endings. While the entire game was basically about human struggle with subjugation to much higher powers. If you have strong feeling at the end of the game as long as it's not cringe but rather hate or joy than I think the writer did what he had to. We might be digressing a bit too much from the short rest poll lol.
Posted By: Sozz Re: Short Rest Poll - 18/05/22 05:02 PM
Well being a priest of a god, I would have imagined learning that there are no gods would have reciprocated a larger response. As for PoE2 the problem was kind of the reverse, my priestess of Eothas was asked to chase down Eothas (to stop him), whose side do they expect me to take? Basically I can choose to end the game there, before being resurrected, or I chase Eothas down to...tell him I'm not interested in stopping him. It's a bigger problem in Deadfire, but I still felt a slightly anachronistic slant to gods, religion and existence, than what I would have thought in Pillars. Or maybe I just remember Deadfire better, because I've played it more recently.
Posted By: virion Re: Short Rest Poll - 18/05/22 05:13 PM
Originally Posted by Sozz
Well being a priest of a god, I would have imagined learning that there are no gods would have reciprocated a larger response. As for PoE2 the problem was kind of the reverse, my priestess of Eothas was asked to chase down Eothas (to stop him), whose side do they expect me to take? Basically I can choose to end the game there, before being resurrected, or I chase Eothas down to...tell him I'm not interested in stopping him. It's a bigger problem in Deadfire, but I still felt a slightly anachronistic slant to gods, religion and existence, than what I would have thought in Pillars. Or maybe I just remember Deadfire better, because I've played it more recently.

Ngl when you put it like that I kinda laughed. Mostly cause it's true. You assemble an entire team, buy a ship and then you're like " I had my fun Eothas, pull the plug".
You don't learn there are no gods though. They exist it's just they used to be humans. I think we can agree their past as humans is long gone. Might make it weird for a priest but well.

I think that last part is why I was one of the few to love the main story actually. For me at some point gods tell you " Santa doesn't exist". And you have to accept it.
Posted By: Sozz Re: Short Rest Poll - 18/05/22 05:29 PM
Humans are fallible, gods are not (in their domains anyway) so are there really gods, basically we learn that the gods are making it up as they go along. But I take your point.

I think the anachronistic part I mentioned is that some of the assumptions the gods make (Eothas especially) are based on an expectation of life that exists on our world, but doesn't seem to have existed in theirs. Now I'm making it up as I go along.
Posted By: Wormerine Re: Short Rest Poll - 18/05/22 05:49 PM
Originally Posted by virion
They exist it's just they used to be humans.
Or rather they were made out of Kith's souls. I don't think their nature is completely understood by Watcher. At least their aspects seem to be adopted from individual Kith who lived up to Gods ideals, but I am still not 100% sure how god's conciousness works in PoEs universe. They seem to me to be more like complex constructs (think advanced AI) then individuals who ascended to godhood.

Originally Posted by Sozz
Humans are fallible, gods are not (in their domains anyway) so are there really gods, basically we learn that the gods are making it up as they go along.
It depends. In Christian religion God is indeed all knowing and infallable, but in Greek/Roman mythology they are certainly flawed (so they are in many others I think). In PoE their aim is to shepard humanity - cosidering Eora works on reincarnation there is no afterlife or "future hope" the aim is for reasonable present and what is best for Kith's future. Are Gods in Eora enforcing order and giving people hope as Thaos claims? If one believed in guidance offered by Gods, learning of how they came to be doesn't necessarily change it. Or does it? I found different answers for different characters.

Look what you made me do:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Posted By: Sozz Re: Short Rest Poll - 18/05/22 06:09 PM
Originally Posted by Sozz
Originally Posted by Wormerine
Humans are fallible, gods are not (in their domains anyway) so are there really gods, basically we learn that the gods are making it up as they go along.
It depends. In Christian religion God is indeed all knowing and infallable, but in Greek/Roman mythology they are certainly flawed (so they are in many others I think). In PoE their aim is to shepard humanity - cosidering Eora works on reincarnation there is no afterlife or "future hope" the aim is for reasonable present and what is best for Kith's future. Are Gods in Eora enforcing order and giving people hope as Thaos claims? If one believed in guidance offered by Gods, learning of how they came to be doesn't necessarily change it. Or does it? I found different answers for different characters.
True enough though I think Fate gives a certain...certainty to the Greek pantheon. As for shepherding humanity, that might be part of it, but ultimately it was to make reincarnation reliable, I'm forgetting if this was an existential threat or just something they'd developed the power to do. I also seem to remember that they modelled themselves after their gods, gods their society had stopped believing in, another interesting wrinkle. Who knows what are their stories, and what are the stories they've adopted...

Of course I'm half-remembering things from a game I played some time ago, so report back to us (and sorry) smile

P.S. I also happen to be replaying BG:2 right now, make of that what you will
Posted By: robertthebard Re: Short Rest Poll - 19/05/22 03:37 AM
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
And you would really like to manage food supply even more ? because you'd always need to have some in your inventory to short rest...
I "kinda like" the food supply system too...

But I'd rather have to watch a new easy and gameplay-wise interresting mechanic than having to manage my inventory even more...

(actual food supply system = inventory management and nothing more)
So tie it to food supplies, but include things like Goodberry, and presto, you don't have to manage it at all. You just have to have someone with the spell.

I didn't vote though, because "Leave it alone" wasn't an option.
Posted By: Maximuuus Re: Short Rest Poll - 19/05/22 04:52 AM
Originally Posted by robertthebard
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
And you would really like to manage food supply even more ? because you'd always need to have some in your inventory to short rest...
I "kinda like" the food supply system too...

But I'd rather have to watch a new easy and gameplay-wise interresting mechanic than having to manage my inventory even more...

(actual food supply system = inventory management and nothing more)
So tie it to food supplies, but include things like Goodberry, and presto, you don't have to manage it at all. You just have to have someone with the spell.

I didn't vote though, because "Leave it alone" wasn't an option.

Back to the point that the food supply system is only a gimmick in it's current implementation.

Spell = spellslots to recover your spellslots
Items = inventory management.

Gameplay-wise it doesn't enhance the resting system at all.
Posted By: virion Re: Short Rest Poll - 19/05/22 09:47 AM
NGL one of the main things BG series lacked compared to D&D tabletop is simply Ironman mode.
When you think of it the entire sleep / short rest system was invented with the idea a GM would " balance " it for the players.
I stated on page #1 how I see short rest/ long rest becoming a tad more interesting mechanics and under what circumstances after me. That said what I said boils down to what robert is saying now: Leave it alone lol.


And I don't see how we can expect more to be done in BG3 seing how you simply HAVE to overcome certain challenges. What good is there in limitting ressource replenishment if you still expect the player to complete certain encounters at all cost if they want to progress the story?

But putting aside the current reality of BG3 I think the long rest / short rest could become way more meaningfull in "Ironman mode" campaigns more similar to how XCOM series worked. D&D " vanillia" tabletop is 100% ironman mode as far as I understand(Correct me if I'm wrong I only played the PC games) so theoratically we're missing a quite vital component. It would change entirely the definition of quests and story line as right now you simply HAVE to overcome certain challenges to progress the story. What if ...you didn't?

XCOM uses a simply idea -> Your ressources recharge "per mission", some conditions impact soldiers between missions, ressources are limited to a certain number per map. In our case it would be spellslots, for xcom those were soldiers skills/grenades. Ammo was infinite and limited to ammo per clip requiring recharding the weapon at some point. The infamous XCOM reputation for being hard AF comes from early stages soldiers squishiness so really the gameplay loop itself isn't related to difficulty that much.

To some extent i can imagine the long rest and short rest system being back " at home" under those conditions. Imagine the hag quest done this way: You leave the druid grove and head to the swamps. Here you talk with aunthie, the swamp reveals it's true nature. You can't long rest for the entirety of the swamp map. Only short rest. Long rest only if you leave the map. You would have to leave eventually if the hag encounter goes south and you can't defeat her anymore.

Let's say you leave the area: That's when you can long rest, the hag? Maybe you can meet her another day. Maybe you can't anymore. She was just a way to achieve the goal not the goal itself. At this point you long rest and keep playing the game(You visit the grove, maybe you keep chasing the hag but naturally she wouldn't be there anymore for instance. So less loot).

The more I write about it the more it boils down to my post on #1 page. I can't convince myself giving any significance to short rest is possible if long rest exists. And it does. Is it a bad thing? Well not that much, it's just the ressource management comes out a bit weird.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Short Rest Poll - 19/05/22 10:16 AM
Ironman is great. I love it - provided the game is balanced well for it.

In D&D tabletop, of course it's ironman - except you have a DM who can make sure that if he/she threw too much at you, he/she could cut a few monsters in the next encounter or 2, or allow a rest where there normally wouldn't be one.

In tabletop, the DM doesn't normally allow resting except at certain times and places. If they want a true 5e, D&D experience, they need to develop a way to lock resting unless it is needed or it is appropriate.
Posted By: Maximuuus Re: Short Rest Poll - 19/05/22 11:04 AM
Neither short and long rest are "meaningfull" in BG3. It's just buttons to heal. You never have to think when, where and/or what you'll do when you'll rest. This is what meaningfull meant to me in a tactical roleplaying game.

P&P long rest = prepare your spells, level up, HP and spellslots recovery, eventually various other activities (RP), eventually food supply, reduce your exhaustion,...

P&P short rest = spend hit dices to recover HP, use some class feature, link items, eventually various other activities.

Larian has only kept
- HP and spellslots recovery (very simplified for short rest)
- they added a very cool RP thing for long rest (companions dialogs)
- they also added a gimmicky food supply system (gimmicky mostly because there are food absolutely everywhere,which mean inventory management more than ressources management).

It's just not enough on top of not being very well done.

Various elements could make rests an important mechanic.
They just simplified it too much compared to P&P and they haven't added enough interresting things to do/to think about related to short or long resting.

They could have, in exemple, kept ritual spells but only when you rest. I.E you can identify items once when you short or long rest. Just another idea of a "various element" that could have made resting meaningfull.
Posted By: kanisatha Re: Short Rest Poll - 19/05/22 03:07 PM
Originally Posted by mr_planescapist
Personally I adore Deadire. Yea the main storyline is so so and very short HOWEVER that is NOT how to play this game. I clearly was designed for you to explore the lore and get immersed in the world; and it works beautifully at that. When I play this game I completely ignore the main storyline lol. You have a boat load of stuff to explore and discover.
So nice to find someone else who sees PoE2 this way! It's exactly how I approach the game as well, and why I love the game, because I have always wanted a good party-based cRPG where I can afford to pretty much ignore the main quest line for as long as I want and just wander around and do whatever I want without any pressure to follow the script. The problem in PoE2, of course, is that even though the game allows you to do this it really shouldn't, because major God-guy looking to destroy the world as we know it an' all .... So there is that disconnect in the game, and it's understandable this bothers some people.
Posted By: virion Re: Short Rest Poll - 19/05/22 03:39 PM
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Neither short and long rest are "meaningfull" in BG3. It's just buttons to heal. You never have to think when, where and/or what you'll do when you'll rest. This is what meaningfull meant to me in a tactical roleplaying game.

P&P long rest = prepare your spells, level up, HP and spellslots recovery, eventually various other activities (RP), eventually food supply, reduce your exhaustion,...

P&P short rest = spend hit dices to recover HP, use some class feature, link items, eventually various other activities.

Larian has only kept
- HP and spellslots recovery (very simplified for short rest)
- they added a very cool RP thing for long rest (companions dialogs)
- they also added a gimmicky food supply system (gimmicky mostly because there are food absolutely everywhere,which mean inventory management more than ressources management).

It's just not enough on top of not being very well done.

Various elements could make rests an important mechanic.
They just simplified it too much compared to P&P and they haven't added enough interresting things to do/to think about related to short or long resting.

They could have, in exemple, kept ritual spells but only when you rest. I.E you can identify items once when you short or long rest. Just another idea of a "various element" that could have made resting meaningfull.

Interesting take. And one that doesn't undermine the entirety of how it's done in BG3.

Ultimately we will have crafting and that could be tied to the camp encouraging you to get there more often for more " organic" reasons.
Ritual spells at camp would be cool too. Apparently some of them in 5th edition do require some tools so that could spice it up a bit.

There's a rule I usually follow : if you can't hide something then emphasize it. Make it a quality.

So since we can't hide you can go to camp at any time and sleep endlessly at least put more things to do in that camp. Rest will become a " oh btw" thing.

ps: theoratically you can't sleep endlessly, I remember in the oooooooold data mine thread sleeping too often actually can fuck you up. Making the entire clock race thing an actual thing. Those are just speculations based on data mining. If you're interested you would need to go back to threads from 2 years ago. In that light the entire Larian's " Making failing fun " rethoric comes under a completely different light doesn't it.
Posted By: Maximuuus Re: Short Rest Poll - 19/05/22 05:29 PM
I wouldn't say ritual spells at camp only but 1/rest. This would help to make short rests valuable imo.
I.E 3 identify spells per day, 2 that can be used "fast" during the day. But it's a detail, we're talking about something that will probably not be implemented.

If short rests was :
- hit dices
- use class features
- ritual spells

And long rests was :
- hp/spellslot recovery
- companions dialogs
- level up
- prepare spells
- ritual spells
- food supply (less food everywhere : you have to find it and manage your ressources but you can also buy it if necessary - eventually an option to disable the food requirement)

=> players would at least have to think more about when and what to do when they choose to rest. Resting would be more meaningfull.

- disable long rest in dungeons except on specific spots but with a risk of encounter on these spots if the area is (still) dangerous => and you also have a meaningfull where to think about.

Such a system would not be a lot more restrictive than now. It would just add (or rework) details to the point that the system would become more what it should in such a game : an important mechanic that have real consequences in the players heads.

I cant say about data mined things.
Posted By: robertthebard Re: Short Rest Poll - 19/05/22 07:17 PM
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Originally Posted by robertthebard
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
And you would really like to manage food supply even more ? because you'd always need to have some in your inventory to short rest...
I "kinda like" the food supply system too...

But I'd rather have to watch a new easy and gameplay-wise interresting mechanic than having to manage my inventory even more...

(actual food supply system = inventory management and nothing more)
So tie it to food supplies, but include things like Goodberry, and presto, you don't have to manage it at all. You just have to have someone with the spell.

I didn't vote though, because "Leave it alone" wasn't an option.

Back to the point that the food supply system is only a gimmick in it's current implementation.

Spell = spellslots to recover your spellslots
Items = inventory management.

Gameplay-wise it doesn't enhance the resting system at all.

I find it more than a bit ironic that this forum loves to go "But Solasta", until it's inconvenient. LRs are controlled exactly this way, along with time restrictions. A spell slot is the cost there, and would be here. Aren't people going on and on about how it needs a cost? I think it's probably a year past now that I suggested making a LR require you have taken 2 SRs before you can take it, and tying food, whether through actual food, or Goodberry or similar would add a cost to it that may make it "prohibitive" to abuse it. Of course, there's my issue too, I miss a lot of stuff because I simply don't abuse the system, LR or SR... Truth be told, I forget about SRs a lot more than I take them.
Posted By: Maximuuus Re: Short Rest Poll - 19/05/22 08:06 PM
Not sure why you're talking about Solasta because LR in this game are controlled by spots on linear maps.
Definitely not something possible in BG3 but it suits their map design and it works very well gameplay wise.

The only moment food is the only "restriction" is on the worldmap. Rations in Solasta are pretty well balanced, not too restrictive but you have to think about it and prepare your days and/or find them as precious ressources.

Food is only the fresh cherry on a good cake that you can conveniently remove if you don't like cherry while it's a rotten one on top of a not so good cake that you can even not remove in BG3.

Something must be done to improve the mechanic but food is not the entire resting system itself. It's only a small part of it.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Short Rest Poll - 19/05/22 11:56 PM
Originally Posted by robertthebard
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Originally Posted by robertthebard
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
And you would really like to manage food supply even more ? because you'd always need to have some in your inventory to short rest...
I "kinda like" the food supply system too...

But I'd rather have to watch a new easy and gameplay-wise interresting mechanic than having to manage my inventory even more...

(actual food supply system = inventory management and nothing more)
So tie it to food supplies, but include things like Goodberry, and presto, you don't have to manage it at all. You just have to have someone with the spell.

I didn't vote though, because "Leave it alone" wasn't an option.

Back to the point that the food supply system is only a gimmick in it's current implementation.

Spell = spellslots to recover your spellslots
Items = inventory management.

Gameplay-wise it doesn't enhance the resting system at all.

I find it more than a bit ironic that this forum loves to go "But Solasta", until it's inconvenient. LRs are controlled exactly this way, along with time restrictions. A spell slot is the cost there, and would be here. Aren't people going on and on about how it needs a cost? I think it's probably a year past now that I suggested making a LR require you have taken 2 SRs before you can take it, and tying food, whether through actual food, or Goodberry or similar would add a cost to it that may make it "prohibitive" to abuse it. Of course, there's my issue too, I miss a lot of stuff because I simply don't abuse the system, LR or SR... Truth be told, I forget about SRs a lot more than I take them.

I thought requiring 2 SR before 1 LR was smart - until someone brought it up that:

a. You can just hit both SR's and then LR without restraint, so the only thing that does is add 2 more clicks.
b. What happens if you spent all your spells slots, need an LR, but you can only use SR - like right before going against the Gith patrol. Could you get soft locked?

And Max is right. There's a big difference between Solasta and BG3 rest system. Random Encounters, linear maps with specific long rest locations, and food all limit long rest in that game. It works for that game, but BG3, not so much because you have 25+ hours of content on the same map location.

Food alone would work, but only if they severely limit it in comparison to what they dole out right now AND they'd have to somehow limit what you can buy at the vendors because later you will have enough money to buy endless food AND they would have to scrap Goodberry and Create Food spells AND they would probably have to scrap the Send to Camp function so that you can't carry too much food on you or it encumbers you.
Posted By: robertthebard Re: Short Rest Poll - 20/05/22 12:04 AM
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Not sure why you're talking about Solasta because LR in this game are controlled by spots on linear maps.
Definitely not something possible in BG3 but it suits their map design and it works very well gameplay wise.

The only moment food is the only "restriction" is on the worldmap. Rations in Solasta are pretty well balanced, not too restrictive but you have to think about it and prepare your days and/or find them as precious ressources.

Food is only the fresh cherry on a good cake that you can conveniently remove if you don't like cherry while it's a rotten one on top of a not so good cake that you can even not remove in BG3.

Something must be done to improve the mechanic but food is not the entire resting system itself. It's only a small part of it.

I did get sort of derailed there. I do want to stick to my proposition though: Leave SRs alone. Despite how derailed I got in that post, however, I never claimed it was the only restriction.
Posted By: Rhobar121 Re: Short Rest Poll - 20/05/22 06:56 AM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
I thought requiring 2 SR before 1 LR was smart - until someone brought it up that:

a. You can just hit both SR's and then LR without restraint, so the only thing that does is add 2 more clicks.
b. What happens if you spent all your spells slots, need an LR, but you can only use SR - like right before going against the Gith patrol. Could you get soft locked?

And Max is right. There's a big difference between Solasta and BG3 rest system. Random Encounters, linear maps with specific long rest locations, and food all limit long rest in that game. It works for that game, but BG3, not so much because you have 25+ hours of content on the same map location.

Food alone would work, but only if they severely limit it in comparison to what they dole out right now AND they'd have to somehow limit what you can buy at the vendors because later you will have enough money to buy endless food AND they would have to scrap Goodberry and Create Food spells AND they would probably have to scrap the Send to Camp function so that you can't carry too much food on you or it encumbers you.


Even if they did, it wouldn't matter because they would have to add some source of infinite food anyway to prevent a soft lock.
Thus, a limited rest would at best be slightly impeded.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Short Rest Poll - 20/05/22 11:58 AM
And that's the point as to why food makes a poor limiting agent for resting.

Since you brought up Solasta, that game has hit dice which limit short rest somewhat, and it works well. Even though you can short rest as much as you want, and classes like fighter get special abilities back even if they don't use Hit Dice, it doesn't matter. You don't usually spam SR because you encounter a long rest area frequently enough that you don't need to spam SR. Likewise, you don't need to spam LR because they're well-placed.
Posted By: robertthebard Re: Short Rest Poll - 20/05/22 01:33 PM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
And that's the point as to why food makes a poor limiting agent for resting.

Since you brought up Solasta, that game has hit dice which limit short rest somewhat, and it works well. Even though you can short rest as much as you want, and classes like fighter get special abilities back even if they don't use Hit Dice, it doesn't matter. You don't usually spam SR because you encounter a long rest area frequently enough that you don't need to spam SR. Likewise, you don't need to spam LR because they're well-placed.

In around 40 hours of Solasta, I've used one SR. I'm so off of using it that I didn't even recover Arcane abilities. I don't know how many LRs I had, for sure, since they're mostly done during map travel, and require food, in one form or another, whether that's Goodberry, or rations, or hunting during travel. I don't know how map travel is going to work, going from one area to another overland here. But what is it about SRs that's bothering you so much that you feel like you can't just play it out the way you want, instead of changing the game to suit you? Is it that it actually has a limiting factor on it, and you'd prefer that to be removed?
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Short Rest Poll - 20/05/22 04:19 PM
Originally Posted by robertthebard
But what is it about SRs that's bothering you so much that you feel like you can't just play it out the way you want, instead of changing the game to suit you? Is it that it actually has a limiting factor on it, and you'd prefer that to be removed?

(I've made the following spoilers to cut down on the overall length of this post, for it's lengthy.)

There are multiple things that bug me:

SR is SO pointless in BG3. The ONLY real benefit of it is that you don't have to teleport to camp and then click on a bedroll to acquire the benefits. In other words, it's 2 less clicks, and maybe 2 minor transitions, and the results of a LR are far more beneficial - full recovery as opposed to just HP recovery. And then, to top it all off, you only get 2 of them. Meanwhile, you can LR as much as you want without penalty or legit cost.

In D&D, the WHOLE point of SR is that, as a DM, you want to try to make it so that the players are doing as much as you can possibly get them to do in a single day. You want your players to feel like they are not sucky. You want them to feel like their characters are tough and skilled. You want them to adventure for hours and then end day at the end of a quest or objective. So you allow SRs so they take an hour break here or there when needed so that they can keep going.

The main issue I have is that in BG3, I feel like I'm constantly adventuring for 5 minutes and then my characters take the rest of the day off. They run around, talk to a few people, get into a fight, and then long rest. Sure, I don't HAVE to do this, but the game allows and even promotes it.

Besides what I mentioned above, meaning SR has no real purpose other than 1 click healing as opposed to 3, one of the worst parts for me is that if I don't long rest often, my party members start complaining about how spent they are and how they need a break, or MY character will make such a comment. And then, as if that isn't enough, if I don't LR often, I miss out on some fun dialogues with party members, like Gale's Mirror Image and Go To Hell dialogues, which I rather like. (Note: The SH dialogue about "Is this a good idea, we have tadpoles in our heads is appropriate ONLY if you LR before reaching the grove. So it makes sense to miss that one if you don't LR often. However, the others could happen at any point in time, but you miss them entirely if you don't LR often.)

My point is that D&D is supposed to be played in the opposite fashion. SR should be encouraged 5 times more and LR should be discouraged so that players are LRing as little as possible.

My Suggested Solution:

In BG3, my issue is that you have multiple time-sensitive story elements, and it doesn't matter one bit how much you LR. The ritual in the grove will continue endlessly for weeks if you need it to, for absolutely no reason. The goblins never find the grove and attack it, even though you may have freed Sazza on the same day you came to the grove. She NEVER goes back to the camp and waits for you even if you spend days to rejoin her. The dragon appears in the telescope near Nadira on the hill, and it is STILL in the area and STILL near the bridge on Risen Road even if you spend weeks in the game to get there. Waukeen's Rest burns endlessly. The tadpole never gives you issues no matter how many Long Rests you use.

Stop. Right there. THAT'S what they could use to limit Long Rests. THAT would fix both long and short rests. They establish right from the beginning that you have tadpoles in your heads that could turn you into mind flayers. It could be within hours. You need to find a healer. So why not USE that to actually discourage long rests? THAT is what I mean by "timed events". Even after you find out that you may have some time, they could still use the tadpoles to discourage you.

How? Simple.

I try to Long Rest on the beach. Shadowheart stops me. "I'm not sure this is such a good idea," dialogue commences, but the end is rescripted. She explains that we could turn into mind flayers in HOURS. We could maybe take a break for about an hour, but she then refuses to rest any longer than that. "If you want to waste the rest of the day, that's up to you. I'm continuing on."

So, you can long rest, but you lose Shadowheart temporarily (able to reclaim her at the Grove) because you chose to do something stupid like Long Rest when you are supposed to try to find a healer and fast before you start to turn into a mind flayer. They establish almost immediately that you really want to find a healer fast, and her threatening to leave you if you long rest would certainly deter most people from actually doing it, especially if the game suggests (as it does currently) that a short rest is recommended. Even 2 Short Rests should be prevented by the game at this point, only allowing 1 because you're supposed to be urged to continue before ceremorphosis starts turning you (which it begins within HOURS of infection).

And here's the final part of this suggestion. They follow through with the threats. They warn you not to long rest too much, and then if you do, you start to have the Dream Lover dreams, or some other events happen that let you know that you shouldn't just long rest after every fight. You don't just have the dreams because you use your illithid powers. You start to have them because you are spamming long rest.

Bam! Right there, you have a consequence that is already in the game, mind you. They would just need to set different triggers for them.

THAT is all they'd need to do, and before I get people jumping all over time limits (AGAIN) and saying how they hate them, I'm not talking about you get only 1 week to complete EA or you turn into a mind flayer or something. I'm talking you get like X Long Rests before your first dream. Then you get another X Long Rests before someone appears at your camp and says that fortunately the ritual has been interrupted but unfortunately Rath is imprisoned (or something similar). Then X Long Rests later, Lae'zel gets frustrated and warns that you'd best go to the gith patrol and pay attention to her or she's leaving. Then you Long Rest again, and she follows through with leaving you (again, however, only temporary. You can pick her back up again once you go in that direction. As soon as you hit Waukeen's Rest, you find her in a bush. When the goblins/drow attacked, she was caught in the conflict and severely wounded. She never made it to the patrol). You Long Rest again after facing the gith patrol. That night, you have another tadpole dream.

THESE are the things I'm talking about. Timed Events that remind you that each day you take, stuff happens. Things happen. The world is changing with each passing day.

Notice, not a single one of the events I mentioned hard lock anything. You can still do Lae'zel's gith patrol quest. It's just that if you don't do it quick enough she temporarily leaves your party. She doesn't permanently leave. She just temporarily leaves.

Notice that you don't turn into a mind flayer. You have dreams that are letting you know that you are not on an endless timetable. You need to prioritize your missions.

Notice that the grove doesn't get sealed off. Something happens to warn you that you're running out of time to save the grove. You need to make it at least somewhat of a priority (if you care).

Finally, unlimit the number of short rests per day so players can use them as much as they need to for classes like fighters, monks, and warlocks who are supposed to be able to reset spell slots and special abilities per short rest for just such a reason that this helps them keep the party going even after all the wizards and clerics have run out of their spells and such. Use Hit Dice for HP restoration because Hit Dice allows you to use less potions, but there is even a limit to them so you don't just short rest forever without eventually needing potions to keep going.

ALL of these things can be done in a cRPG. It is not impossible, and it actually wouldn't take THAT much extra work UNLESS they decide to make it more complicated than it needs to be. (You don't need a cinematic dialogue for EVERY tiny conversation in the game. You don't even NEED to voice act them all.

NOTE: PLEASE DO NOT COPY ALL THIS DOWN IN RESPONSES. It's long enough as is. Thanks.
Posted By: Rhobar121 Re: Short Rest Poll - 20/05/22 07:27 PM
I'm going to repeat myself about the 20th time, but whatever.
The problem is that too much depends on a long rest.
You expect too much after the game. In no DnD game that exists, there has never been a many consequence of constant resting.
The point is, what you propose takes a tremendous amount of work, and this is only the first act of the game, and not even the whole act.
Of course, they can add such things, but considering how long it takes them to create the game, it will probably be another year of delay, which will be an exaggeration.
Remember that the grove itself is not even the majority of the first act and it will be even longer at the premiere.

Whether you like it or not, the game has cinematic dialogues and they will be in the full version.
Which at the same time makes bigger changes much more difficult.
At the moment, if some of the dialogues suddenly stopped being cinematic, it would look strange and most likely I would report it as a bug.

Also take into account that the game will have different difficulty levels and if you repeat the situation from previous games, playing more than 1-2 duels for a long rest will be a challenge (at least in 1 act).
Likewise, on the lower difficulty levels, you will most likely be able to play most of the act without even resting.
This difference alone makes the balance of rests not very possible, it would have to be balanced for each setting separately.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Short Rest Poll - 20/05/22 11:20 PM
How hard is this?

3 Dream sequences, already in game, they are triggered when a player long rests x # of days. Based on difficulty, 1st is maybe 6 days for Easy, 3 for Core, 1 for Hard. Second is 4 days after that for Easy, 2 days for Core, 1 for Hard. Etc.

Now add Lae'zel leaving the party somewhere before the first dream if you don't go get cleansed. 1 extra small cutscene. Somewhere before dream one, another small cutscene about Rath interrupting the ritual.

I'm not talking huge numbers of cinematics here.

Nah. Whatever.
Posted By: Flooter Re: Short Rest Poll - 21/05/22 05:40 AM
[Edit: I spent all night writing this super long post on a smartphone for some reason and most of it is pointless. That’s really funny to me, so I’ll hide anything that doesn’t matter instead of erasing it.]

GM4Him, we obviously have different play styles because my LR take a lot more clicks than yours. I’ve launched BG3 just to long rest and count the operations involved.

[I proceed to go through all the steps including after-rest spells and buffs. It comes out to 13 clicks for the actual LR and 11 for day-long buffs. Moving on…]


Upon clicking on LR, the game asks me to confirm that I want to go to camp and end the day. It tells me I don’t have enough food to rest and warns that I’ll only restore up to half hp, half spellslots and no SRs. (Put a pin in that). Already 1 more click for LR than SR (+1).

I send all my food to camp and usually eat supply packs. I need to open the traveller’s chest (+2) and look for the supply packs because they aren’t at the top of the list of random junk that found their way there over 41h37min of gameplay (+3).

I then split the supply pack stack (right click, split stack, confirm split) (+6). It’s noteworthy that the default split is equal stacks, so if I’ve got four or more supply packs that’s another click to split only one from the rest (+7). I’ve only three packs left, but this is a “finished” savegame, where I did everything I set out to do. (Put a pin in that, too). During every LR that mattered, that extra click counted.

I pick the pack up and hit escape (+9), then go to the bedroll, hit auto-select and finally full rest (+12). There’s a short cinematic, then the game brings me back to a completely empty Grymforge (tee hee ^^).

I suppose the takeaway here is that this part of the game badly needs some streamlining. But the clicks aren’t over yet. Now comes the morning routine.

I’m playing Wyll, who starts his day by summoning his imp (select him, find familiar, select imp, select spot) (+16) and making it invisible (select it, select invisibility, click to cast) (+19). I’m also playing Gale, who breakfasts with a tall glass of Mage Armor (select him, select the spell, choose first level, click on Gale) (+23).

That’s a hefty total already! Honestly, it’s half the reason I LR as sparingly as possible. Now, I realize that this depends heavily on the strategic choices I made. But I don’t feel anything I’ve done so far is unreasonable or cheesy. For me at least, the convenience of SR compared to LR is well worth it.

[I go on a tangent where I count how many clicks I would get to if I used every last useful buff and trick I know (65 total). This is just me showing off.]


But wait! I don’t always end there. There’s more power to be squeezed out of the morning routine, which can come in handy depending on the day ahead.

If Wyll can profitably spend both of his spell slots, then a quick SR can bring him back to full power. I usually go with Armour of Agathys (+25) and I like to Hex the imp (+28) and resummon it (+31), which turns Hex into a bonus action, before short resting (+32).

Gale can do something similar with Arcane Recovery. The way I use a second spell slot veers into cheese territory, which I’ll address in a moment, but there are fair ways to do this so please bear with me. I cast Shield of Faith on the barbarian (+35) and recover two level one slots (+38). To maximise prepared spells, I switch back and forth between preparing Shield of Faith and Mage Armor (+44).

That’s the loadout I went with for boss fights and I thoroughly enjoyed it. It’s over the top but it’s not an everyday occurence nor is it the absolute cheese limit. Most days, I stick to invisible imp plus Mage Armor and look to pick an easy fight in order to spend the relevant spell slots and use rest & recovery to fully power up the party. (Put a final pin here). Conversely, I added the invisibilty ring to the morning routine for the massive Nere fight (+46). In fact, that ring is hella broken. You can pass it around the party to make everyone invisible, which involves opening and closing the party panel three times (+64).

Sixty five clicks per LR is a ridiculous number. To be sure, it’s fueled by UI inefficiencies, strategic decisions, heavy cheese and my own incompetence (I’ve never been able to use hotkeys and when Gale turned invisible he broke concentration on Shield of Faith…) but it shows the steep admin cost of LR compared to SR. As a reminder, my basic LR takes twenty four clicks.

GM4Him, I understand that you wouldn’t use half the tricks I did. I know how you feel about Wizards’ exploits. Maybe Wyll hexing his imp crosses a line for you (though, to me, summoning a creature to sacrifice it for power feels very flavorful for a warlock). Maybe you use no PC that has any use for morning buffs. I believe you when you say you go very quickly through long rests.

Here’s the point within the point: I’m having a ton of fun playing exactly the way you’re describing and I think you could too.

[The next part is kinda relevant, explaining how you can be your own DM if you stick to self imposed rules. I’m cutting it anyway because I’m on a roll.]


For my patch 7 playthrough, I took a page out of RagnarokCzD’s playbook and set my own rules. I allowed myself some amount of cheese, but there were also restrictions. No shoving or hiding during combat; no barrelmancy; limited looting; supply packs only, except when roleplaying victory feasts.

More relevantly, the day didn’t end until I felt the party couldn’t take any more of a beating. A day’s worth of punishment might be trying to clear the spider lair, or casting jump on the barbarian and teleporting the party into the hostile goblin camp, or just running around Grymforge, looking for the ancient forge by triggering every trap and ambush.

In this respect, I’m taking on the role of the DM as you’ve described it in this thread. I’m playing the game my way and it’s a blast! Yeah, I’ve been insta-lava-shove-killed more than once, but I gave every bit as good as I got and victory felt all the sweeter because I followed my own code.

I know it’s not the same. When the game imposes restrictions, the player placed in tight corners, which is where things get interesting. If you have to head into the corner yourself, you’ll always have the path to safety in the back of your mind. But for now the resting system is what it is. While we wait for its next iteration, I have a challenge for you, GM4Him.

It’s called supply golf. The aim is to engage with every available quest and encounter while consuming the fewest possible supply packs. You may not consume any other food. You must strive to use “organic packs”: either starting supply packs or those found or looted. You may buy packs from merchants, but not steal packs from them unless coerced by necessity. No stealing supplies from companions you don’t use unless you kill them. (You don’t need to kill everyone you meet, roleplay as you please). Every “organic pack” left over at the end is worth 1 under par. Every pack bought or stolen from a merchant is worth 1 over par.

[Next, I explain why this game is so cool by referencing stuff I’ve mentionned before. This is my magnum opus.]


I think that challenge will make you appreciate the short rest. Remember all those pins we planted ten thousand words ago? Firstly, there are real consequences to having no supplies, which include being deprived of SRs. You might miss them if you need them.

Secondly, supply packs aren’t that plentyful. I finished a 40 hour run with only three supply packs left! Notably, I ate actual food once or twice, bought at least one supply pack and have so far ignored the hag’s swamp, the risen road and most of the underdark. (I just realized that my score’s not doing great, also that I didn’t look all that hard for packs, so maybe there are more than I think.) Supply packs are also strategically placed throughout the maps, giving an indication of how many days each area should take to clear.

Thirdly, the desire to stretch out the day permeates every decision in the game. It’s fun in a cerebral way if you know what lies ahead and can plan your day accordingly. In unknown territory, the fun becomes visceral. Because you don’t know what might be coming around the corner, you start taking more risks to preserve stamina, like using a level 1 Magic Missile though level 2 would clinch it or trying to get through an entire fight without using the barbarian’s rage.

That’s when you have to think about whether to SR early to power Wyll because doing that wastes a bunch of hp and object actions but not doing it could expose him during the first encounter, because he’d be pretty much locked into casting Hex. You start really valuing those SRs, like when you’ve decided to head into the hallway of fire for the third time that day and you still haven’t figured out how not to trigger the traps, which is fine because potions of fire resistance last all day but still a little worrisome because the barbarian had to tank the hallway twice already because you only had three of those potions, and by the way, guys, we’re also down to one potion of greater healing, so let’s SR one last time to heal the barb and try to find the real exit for real, OK?

In conclusion, I suggest you try playing supply golf, GM4Him. See what trouble you get yourself into and find out if it’s fun for you at all. I’d be interested to know your score and read an account of that game. For my part, I’m off to see what the Githyanki patrol thinks of my invisible death machine of a party, and then loot their corpses for supply packs.
Posted By: Maximuuus Re: Short Rest Poll - 21/05/22 06:06 AM
The resting system as a whole is not a lot better if you only use supply bags and short rests aren't more interresting or meaningfull.

(I can't even understand that some players are fine with it.
What's the next step in crpg ? Buttons to auto regain HP because its sooo coool in BG3 ?)

But at least the food supply system makes more sense and become pretty cool.

What you're doing after click 12+ is not related at all to the resting system.
Posted By: Flooter Re: Short Rest Poll - 21/05/22 06:17 AM
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
What you're doing after click 12+ is not related at all to the resting system.
To me, summoning the imp and casting Mage Armor are part of the cost of a long rest because a long rest ends those effects. Still, I edited my previous post to seperate those steps from the long rest.

I believe you if you say there are more than enough supply packs. I’m tired of looting so I’d didn’t look that hard, and it made the game better for me. Win win!
Posted By: Maximuuus Re: Short Rest Poll - 21/05/22 06:32 AM
Originally Posted by Flooter
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
What you're doing after click 12+ is not related at all to the resting system.
To me, summoning the imp and casting Mage Armor are part of the cost of a long rest because a long rest ends those effects.

I believe you if say there are more than enough supply packs. I’m tired of looting so I’d didn’t look that hard, and it made the game better for me. Win win!

Definitely better if you only use supply bags. There are more than enough but you have to look for them and on top of that if you dont use the camp chest, manage your inventory becomes better too (for food ofc, it doesnt solve the other issues).

Some of us already suggested that the game should ask for supply bags to rest rather than allowing to do so with every banana and so on. You know, because a game need rules and day 1 players wont have in mind that "I have to create my own rules because the resting system wont matter if I dont".

Your 48 clicks are only a part of your strategy as you said, thats what I meant. If I'm only playing with supply bags and with my inventory (no chest) my own LR are basically 5 clicks.

Not sure its a relevant value to define the appeal of the entire system.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Short Rest Poll - 21/05/22 11:53 AM
Wow. So much knit picking. The overall point I was making was that LR is only a slight inconvenience. So the value of SR is really quality of life. It's healing with a single click as opposed to going to camp and getting full healing.

Yes. LR CAN be more time consuming. Dialogues may occur, etc. But especially in late EA, when you LR, it's pretty much pop to camp, click bedroll, click auto-food select, watch campfire, back to map. Instead of 1 second heal, it's maybe 10? And the benefits of LR are way better?

Again, my issue is 5 minutes of adventure, 24 hours rest. THAT is BG3. And it's encouraged by the game. I can't tell you how many times the characters say, "Gosh. I'm tired. We should get some rest.". After 5-10 minutes of adventure. I have literally LR'd on a number of occasions, and almost immediately, even before a single fight, had characters say we should get some rest. It's dumb.
Posted By: Archaven Re: Short Rest Poll - 21/05/22 01:27 PM
in my opinion should follow dnd5e rules.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Short Rest Poll - 21/05/22 02:49 PM
Originally Posted by Archaven
in my opinion should follow dnd5e rules.

Yeah. Problem is that it's not that simple. They have to program a way to limit resting like a live DM would. THAT is the trick. That's why we're endlessly discussing it.

A live DM would say, "No. You can't rest in the burning nautiloid after defeating 3 Devourers. You need to find a safer location first." A live DM would say, "No. You've triggered the hag side quest. You can't long rest until it's done. I might let you short rest, but no ;ong quest.". And a live DM would not make the hag so tough so that you needed to Long rest before fighting her so you could do the entire quest without needing a long rest.

The main issue with BG3 has to do with what also makes it so awesome. Freedom. You are free to trigger the hag quest but then free to walk away. You aren't locked into completing it. Same with all the quests.

So, the result of freedom is that you are free to trigger the quest and then long rest as much as you want. Why, because you are free to go in whatever direction you want. If long rest is locked, you wouldn't have that freedom.

That's why I think the best solution isn't locking, it's soft penalties. Trigger the hag and long rest. She's still waiting for you because it's a game to her, but now she's more prepared. Maybe she has minions now to help her whereas if you faced her right away she'd be alone. That is what I keep trying to say. Small, easy to implement consequences to discourage LR and encourage SR.
Posted By: mrfuji3 Re: Short Rest Poll - 21/05/22 03:06 PM
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
What's the next step in crpg ? Buttons to auto regain HP because its sooo coool in BG3 ?)
Auto-regaining HP/resources (presumably after fights) is a perfectly fine mechanic to use. However, the game should then be designed (or at very least balanced after the fact) for having full hp/resources each fight. And this is the problem I at least have with BG3. Larian has made very few efforts to balance classes to be equally strong for a single fight where you're expected to expend all your resources, but Larian also hasn't placed limitation on resting (in fact, BG3 encourages frequent resting via camp cutscenes) which encourages going into each fight will full resources. Basically they try to have it both ways.

The 2 things that do increase the power of martials per fight are:
1.) Weapon abilities - effectively giving martials pseudo spells, usable per short rest=per fight
2.) Everyone can use scrolls - literally giving martials spells (but also making all casters much more flexible)
Both of these act to close the power gap between martials spellcasters, and the former in particular are effectively per fight abilities. However, I'm skeptical that Larian implemented these mechanics in order to balance classes around single fights with full resources. Especially since there are other decisions (e.g., Quicken's implementation) which increase the power of casters too.

I would be ~okay if Larian made sweeping changes to the D&D classes to balance all classes around assuming each fight is entered with full resources. I'm not confident Larian would do this well, given the past mechanic decisions they've made (surfaces, high ground & backstab advantage, Haste&Quicken implementation, etc), but I wouldn't necessarily disagree with the goal. I've enjoyed many games with cooldown combat systems.
Posted By: Flooter Re: Short Rest Poll - 21/05/22 03:52 PM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Wow. So much knit picking.
You’re right. I apologize for that. And I acknowledge the length of my LR is irrelevant.

I still suggest you try to be your own DM. You can absolutely push your party beyond the point when they ask for a rest. You know the game well enough to find the right challenge for the ressources you have available. Some fights need everything you’ve got; most don’t.

This isn’t a solution to the overall problem, nor is it helpful for new players. This is a friendly suggestion that might be a welcome change of pace.
Posted By: Maximuuus Re: Short Rest Poll - 21/05/22 03:55 PM
@mrfuji - Perfectly fine in A-RPG (and FPS, and...), but not in party and turn based Crpg imo. It wouldnt make sense to me.
Posted By: Icelyn Re: Short Rest Poll - 21/05/22 04:37 PM
Originally Posted by mrfuji3
Auto-regaining HP/resources (presumably after fights) is a perfectly fine mechanic to use.
up
Posted By: Archaven Re: Short Rest Poll - 21/05/22 06:02 PM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Originally Posted by Archaven
in my opinion should follow dnd5e rules.

Yeah. Problem is that it's not that simple. They have to program a way to limit resting like a live DM would. THAT is the trick. That's why we're endlessly discussing it.

A live DM would say, "No. You can't rest in the burning nautiloid after defeating 3 Devourers. You need to find a safer location first." A live DM would say, "No. You've triggered the hag side quest. You can't long rest until it's done. I might let you short rest, but no ;ong quest.". And a live DM would not make the hag so tough so that you needed to Long rest before fighting her so you could do the entire quest without needing a long rest.

The main issue with BG3 has to do with what also makes it so awesome. Freedom. You are free to trigger the hag quest but then free to walk away. You aren't locked into completing it. Same with all the quests.

So, the result of freedom is that you are free to trigger the quest and then long rest as much as you want. Why, because you are free to go in whatever direction you want. If long rest is locked, you wouldn't have that freedom.

That's why I think the best solution isn't locking, it's soft penalties. Trigger the hag and long rest. She's still waiting for you because it's a game to her, but now she's more prepared. Maybe she has minions now to help her whereas if you faced her right away she'd be alone. That is what I keep trying to say. Small, easy to implement consequences to discourage LR and encourage SR.

i think triggered quest can still be managed so that they are not free to travel anywhere else and if they do so, make it that the quest will fail. Or once triggered which may need a physical mechanism like a door or once entered the location, the tunnel collapse you can't get out until you complete the area. However, i don't really like the idea of using LR and SR as a challenge mechanism. I'm not sure the possibility perhaps is the nature of the dnd5e ruleset, IMO challenge should always tie to party or character level. For example, if your level 4 party WITH LR shouldn't be able to bring down a level 20 dragon for example (for analogy sake). If that's allowed, then i believe the problem lies to the ruleset itself.

i would rather that an encounter be challenging regardless you LR or SR. the challenge depends fully on the encounter design itself. For example clever mixing of the terrains, the placement of structures/buildings/heights and a mix of few elite monster with a boss (or even 2) and some cannon fodders. i don't oppose the idea of some battles or encounters that uses the careful planning of LR or SR for you to complete an area. But every encounter design based on this rule IMO is bad. And the placement of the LR camp is dictated by the game devs themselves. Which means there are not much freedom. It's just beat this encounter the way dictated by how the developers want it to be.

i would like challenge to be more of what spells should you be preparing, what are your level for you to beat this encounter, what weapons or spells, consumable? and approach will be the best to tackle this encounter rather than said.. you gotta save your resources and just use normal attack and cantrips to win this easy fights and drink potions to replenish your health, and only use SR after 3rd of 4th waves and only use ALL your resources and save it for the final boss battle.
Posted By: mrfuji3 Re: Short Rest Poll - 21/05/22 06:23 PM
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
@mrfuji - Perfectly fine in A-RPG (and FPS, and...), but not in party and turn based Crpg imo. It wouldnt make sense to me.
DOSI and II??? Or are you saying that those aren't crpgs?

Originally Posted by Icelyn
Originally Posted by mrfuji3
Auto-regaining HP/resources (presumably after fights) is a perfectly fine mechanic to use.
up
Please quote all the relevant parts thanks.
Originally Posted by mrfuji3
Auto-regaining HP/resources (presumably after fights) is a perfectly fine mechanic to use. However, the game should then be designed (or at very least balanced after the fact) for having full hp/resources each fight. And [Larian doesn't do this].
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Short Rest Poll - 21/05/22 06:32 PM
Originally Posted by Flooter
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Wow. So much knit picking.
You’re right. I apologize for that. And I acknowledge the length of my LR is irrelevant.

I still suggest you try to be your own DM. You can absolutely push your party beyond the point when they ask for a rest. You know the game well enough to find the right challenge for the ressources you have available. Some fights need everything you’ve got; most don’t.

This isn’t a solution to the overall problem, nor is it helpful for new players. This is a friendly suggestion that might be a welcome change of pace.

Been my own DM. Done that. It's like playing chess by myself and choosing which side I want to win. There's no meaning in it.

Besides, I'm always a DM. I play D&D video games so the game can be my DM and I can finally be a player.
Posted By: Maximuuus Re: Short Rest Poll - 21/05/22 07:14 PM
Originally Posted by mrfuji3
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
@mrfuji - Perfectly fine in A-RPG (and FPS, and...), but not in party and turn based Crpg imo. It wouldnt make sense to me.
DOSI and II??? Or are you saying that those aren't crpgs?

I may be wrong but I don't remember that you're fully healed after combats in DoS. Am I wrong ?

About cooldown if thats what you were talking about... its an entire other system in which you absolutely dont have to end combats to recover (most of?) your class features and spells.
You dont "auto regain" anything... the cooldown just come to an end.

If short rests are meant to be a "restoration spell" I guess they could just have allowed healing words as a ritual spell... maybe another bad decision between DoS and DnD.
Posted By: Flooter Re: Short Rest Poll - 21/05/22 07:33 PM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Been my own DM. Done that. It's like playing chess by myself and choosing which side I want to win. There's no meaning in it.

Besides, I'm always a DM. I play D&D video games so the game can be my DM and I can finally be a player.
Ok, I get those arguments.

For what it’s worth, I’m in favor of your proposal to nudge the story and world along with LR. As you say, big consequences need to be clearly explained and have plenty of run up time and reminders. But it would do wonders to make the world more vibrant and breathe new life into the resting system.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Short Rest Poll - 21/05/22 08:16 PM
Originally Posted by Flooter
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Been my own DM. Done that. It's like playing chess by myself and choosing which side I want to win. There's no meaning in it.

Besides, I'm always a DM. I play D&D video games so the game can be my DM and I can finally be a player.
Ok, I get those arguments.

For what it’s worth, I’m in favor of your proposal to nudge the story and world along with LR. As you say, big consequences need to be clearly explained and have plenty of run up time and reminders. But it would do wonders to make the world more vibrant and breathe new life into the resting system.

Let me know also say that I love this game. Even if my suggestion doesn't get implemented, I'll still love it. Do I think the game would be better if they gave story elements based on LR? Absolutely. But, in the end, if I have to DM myself, I will. I just won't like it as much.
Posted By: Rhobar121 Re: Short Rest Poll - 21/05/22 09:31 PM
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
The resting system as a whole is not a lot better if you only use supply bags and short rests aren't more interresting or meaningfull.

(I can't even understand that some players are fine with it.
What's the next step in crpg ? Buttons to auto regain HP because its sooo coool in BG3 ?)

But at least the food supply system makes more sense and become pretty cool.

What you're doing after click 12+ is not related at all to the resting system.

So exactly the same as it worked in bg1, bg2, nw and a lot of other games. Of course, I know that doesn't mean it should be like that, but let's face it, it doesn't work differently in past games.
Posted By: Rhobar121 Re: Short Rest Poll - 21/05/22 09:41 PM
Originally Posted by mrfuji3
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
What's the next step in crpg ? Buttons to auto regain HP because its sooo coool in BG3 ?)
Auto-regaining HP/resources (presumably after fights) is a perfectly fine mechanic to use. However, the game should then be designed (or at very least balanced after the fact) for having full hp/resources each fight. And this is the problem I at least have with BG3. Larian has made very few efforts to balance classes to be equally strong for a single fight where you're expected to expend all your resources, but Larian also hasn't placed limitation on resting (in fact, BG3 encourages frequent resting via camp cutscenes) which encourages going into each fight will full resources. Basically they try to have it both ways.

The 2 things that do increase the power of martials per fight are:
1.) Weapon abilities - effectively giving martials pseudo spells, usable per short rest=per fight
2.) Everyone can use scrolls - literally giving martials spells (but also making all casters much more flexible)
Both of these act to close the power gap between martials spellcasters, and the former in particular are effectively per fight abilities. However, I'm skeptical that Larian implemented these mechanics in order to balance classes around single fights with full resources. Especially since there are other decisions (e.g., Quicken's implementation) which increase the power of casters too.

I would be ~okay if Larian made sweeping changes to the D&D classes to balance all classes around assuming each fight is entered with full resources. I'm not confident Larian would do this well, given the past mechanic decisions they've made (surfaces, high ground & backstab advantage, Haste&Quicken implementation, etc), but I wouldn't necessarily disagree with the goal. I've enjoyed many games with cooldown combat systems.


I do not know if the current balance can be taken as target.
One fact, we don't have any difficulty levels at the moment, which means the game has to be easier for people to complete.
The current difficulty level is more or less normal which means the game is quite simple.
In the full version of the game, there will certainly be much more difficult modes, then you will need to rest for sure every 1-2 fights.
Of course, as always, you will be able to spoil the game using multiclassing, but that is a separate issue.
Posted By: mrfuji3 Re: Short Rest Poll - 21/05/22 09:47 PM
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Originally Posted by mrfuji3
DOSI and II??? Or are you saying that those aren't crpgs?
I may be wrong but I don't remember that you're fully healed after combats in DoS. Am I wrong ?

About cooldown if thats what you were talking about... its an entire other system in which you absolutely dont have to end combats to recover (most of?) your class features and spells.
You dont "auto regain" anything... the cooldown just come to an end.

If short rests are meant to be a "restoration spell" I guess they could just have allowed healing words as a ritual spell... maybe another bad decision between DoS and DnD.
You don't auto-heal in DOSII, but you can (and are expected to) click on your bedroll for a full heal after each fight, which is essentially an auto-heal-after-combats. DOSII fights are certainly balanced assuming you start them with full HP & armor. And yes, cooldowns are a different system, but they're under the umbrella category of "full resources for every fight."

I wasn't necessarily suggesting that Larian change BG3 to be cooldown-based, but that is a possible (extreme) option. Alternatively, Larian could reduce the # of spell slots for caster characters, though then they'd run into making sorcerers and warlocks too similar. Idk exactly; there's lots of possible solutions if Larian wants to go that route. My main point is that Larian should choose between the D&D "Spreading Resources Over an Adventuring Day, with Short- and Long-Rest Classes" and the "You're Expected to Go Into Each Fight with Full Resources" because having it both ways doesn't really work.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Short Rest Poll - 21/05/22 09:56 PM
My main point is that Larian should choose between the D&D "Spreading Resources Over an Adventuring Day, with Short- and Long-Rest Classes" and the "You're Expected to Go Into Each Fight with Full Resources" because having it both ways doesn't really work.

This, right here, is a big part of the problem. In fact, I would say it's THE core issue. Most fights are designed to be at your best, so you fight, sleep, fight, sleep.

I'd honestly rather have it so that you have those nautiloid full heal stations everywhere in the game than have it where I adventure for 5 minutes and spend 24 hours resting.
Posted By: mrfuji3 Re: Short Rest Poll - 21/05/22 10:35 PM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
I'd honestly rather have it so that you have those nautiloid full heal stations everywhere in the game than have it where I adventure for 5 minutes and spend 24 hours resting.
Potentially could be a tadpole power? "You call on your tadpole, using its Netherese magic to draw energy from the atmosphere and restore yourself (and your tadpole-companions)"
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Short Rest Poll - 22/05/22 02:20 AM
Originally Posted by mrfuji3
Originally Posted by GM4Him
I'd honestly rather have it so that you have those nautiloid full heal stations everywhere in the game than have it where I adventure for 5 minutes and spend 24 hours resting.
Potentially could be a tadpole power? "You call on your tadpole, using its Netherese magic to draw energy from the atmosphere and restore yourself (and your tadpole-companions)"

Seriously. I'd rather have that than me feeling like I am supposed to adventure for 5 minutes and then rest for the remainder of the day.

"ILLITHID POWERS, ACTIVATE!"

I HAVE played the game ignoring the characters as they tell me they're tired, and I CAN use short rests and go for a long time - on the surface anyway; the Underdark is another story and REQUIRES a lot more LR - but the game prompts the LR AND I wind up missing out on a number of character/party dialogues as a result. Missing out on story and character development sucks especially because I am actually playing D&D the way it should be played where you end day as little as possible.

And THAT is one of my biggest frustrations. I should be rewarded for not long resting, not penalized. And if LR is promoted, SR is made even more worthless.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Short Rest Poll - 22/05/22 08:33 AM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
I adventure for 5 minutes and spend 24 hours resting.
This, right here, is a big part of the problem. In fact, I would say it's THE core issue.

> You dont. :-/
Posted By: 1varangian Re: Short Rest Poll - 23/05/22 04:34 PM
They need to sort out Long Rest first to make it the meaningful mechanic it's supposed to be. There's no beating around the bush with this one. All the classes have been balanced around Long Rest. It needs to have effective restrictions / tradeoffs / risks on how often you can do it.

After that the amount of Short Rests need to balanced with the Long Rest frequency. There's no point in limiting Short Rest until Long Rest is also much more limited somehow.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Short Rest Poll - 23/05/22 05:23 PM
I'm telling you that it's backwards. Limiting SR to 2 per day encourages LR more because you can LR as much as you want without any limit or penalty. Makes no sense because ALL classes benefit from LR while only a few from SR.

So, it literally makes no sense to SR. None. It's ONLY benefit is convenience - 1 button click for a half-butt heal as opposed to a full heal for 10 seconds of game time.
Posted By: Aphex81 Re: Short Rest Poll - 31/05/22 10:18 PM
You are missing the best option: remove resting alltoghether and go back to cooldowns.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Short Rest Poll - 01/06/22 07:25 AM
Originally Posted by Aphex81
You are missing the best option: remove resting alltoghether and go back to cooldowns.
2 years too late for that isnt it? laugh
Posted By: Maximuuus Re: Short Rest Poll - 01/06/22 08:53 AM
Originally Posted by Aphex81
You are missing the best option: remove resting alltoghether and go back to cooldowns.

You are also missing the best option.
Remove DnD and rename the game.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Short Rest Poll - 01/06/22 08:59 AM
Originally Posted by Aphex81
You are missing the best option: remove resting alltoghether and go back to cooldowns.

Cool downs? 😴

Boring. Pointless. Annoying. I could just go afk for a few minutes, get something to eat and drink, and rest as much as I need. What is the limit? Waiting painstakingly until the cool down is complete.

That's worse than BG1 and 2 and Icewind Dale 1 and 2 where I could rest as often as I wanted as long as I manually ran to the edge of the game map and returned to the inn. At least they had monsters respawn and/or chance random encounters as well to help increase the risk/annoyance factor which helped discourage rest spamming.

No thanks. I'm not asking for much. I want the rest mechanics - both of them - to have meaning and purpose. Right now, Short Rest has none except that it is a tad more convenient than Long Rest for a fraction of the benefits.

I'm just saying, the current mechanics make it so you can LR after every fight for full health and spell slot restoration. Therefore, SR is pointless. LR is encouraged presently and SR is discouraged because it's limited while LR is not.

Why SR when you can LR every time?

Imagine playing a D&D session where after every fight the DM let you LR so you recover fully. This is what it'd be like:

Your quest:. Wipe out the cult of the Dead Three.

You kill the cultists at the entrance. 6 rounds of combat. 36 seconds of time passed in the world of Farrun. Party heads to the inn and sleeps and returns the next night. Cultists never notice their guards at the front entrance were butchered. Party heads down into their lair. Encounter. 4 more cultists. 1 minute encounter. They're dead. Well. "That's enough for today," says Gale. "Let's get some rest. I'm tired.". Sleeps 24 hours. Returns. Still the cult haven't noticed they're guys' bodies lying around. Party continues. Another group. This is 2 bosses. 1 minute, 10 second fight. Shadowheart says, "Well. That's it for me. It's been a long day. Let's get some rest."

This is BG3 currently. Literally, this is what happens to me in the game. And what's more I have rested during playthroughs every time the characters say something just to make sure I don't miss out on dialogues.

I can't even imagine a DM allowing such an idiotic gameplay. No. Once you kill the guards at the entrance, you keep going until the cult is dead. If the PCs are really struggling to get to the end, you give them help via NPCs or you let them rest with some sort of ramifications - ie. The cult discovers the bodies and is on high alert. SOMETHING happens that makes sense.

BG3 is not alone in this. Kingmaker is just as bad, or worse, actually. I literally went into the Stag Lord's base, killed some guys, left, camped on the world map, returned to the Outpost, sold equipment and returned, camped some more on the world map, and then went back into his base. Nothing changed. No one was discovered and no alert. Nothing.

I get it's a video game, but it doesn't matter. If they want this game to be THE D&D game, they need to fix this. Stop making every encounter based on the idea that you'll be fully rested each fight, and encourage SR while discouraging LR. I have created untold numbers of campaigns and modules and so forth. You never build quests where players are able to, and even required to, LR frequently. The whole trick is to build them so that players can adventure as long as possible before a single LR.
Posted By: kanisatha Re: Short Rest Poll - 01/06/22 01:48 PM
Originally Posted by Aphex81
You are missing the best option: remove resting alltoghether and go back to cooldowns.
You mean the option of having a game named 'Baldur's Gate 3' NOT be a D&D game?
Posted By: Rhobar121 Re: Short Rest Poll - 01/06/22 02:08 PM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Originally Posted by Aphex81
You are missing the best option: remove resting alltoghether and go back to cooldowns.

Cool downs? 😴

Boring. Pointless. Annoying. I could just go afk for a few minutes, get something to eat and drink, and rest as much as I need. What is the limit? Waiting painstakingly until the cool down is complete.

That's worse than BG1 and 2 and Icewind Dale 1 and 2 where I could rest as often as I wanted as long as I manually ran to the edge of the game map and returned to the inn. At least they had monsters respawn and/or chance random encounters as well to help increase the risk/annoyance factor which helped discourage rest spamming.

No thanks. I'm not asking for much. I want the rest mechanics - both of them - to have meaning and purpose. Right now, Short Rest has none except that it is a tad more convenient than Long Rest for a fraction of the benefits.

I'm just saying, the current mechanics make it so you can LR after every fight for full health and spell slot restoration. Therefore, SR is pointless. LR is encouraged presently and SR is discouraged because it's limited while LR is not.

Why SR when you can LR every time?

Imagine playing a D&D session where after every fight the DM let you LR so you recover fully. This is what it'd be like:

Your quest:. Wipe out the cult of the Dead Three.

You kill the cultists at the entrance. 6 rounds of combat. 36 seconds of time passed in the world of Farrun. Party heads to the inn and sleeps and returns the next night. Cultists never notice their guards at the front entrance were butchered. Party heads down into their lair. Encounter. 4 more cultists. 1 minute encounter. They're dead. Well. "That's enough for today," says Gale. "Let's get some rest. I'm tired.". Sleeps 24 hours. Returns. Still the cult haven't noticed they're guys' bodies lying around. Party continues. Another group. This is 2 bosses. 1 minute, 10 second fight. Shadowheart says, "Well. That's it for me. It's been a long day. Let's get some rest."

This is BG3 currently. Literally, this is what happens to me in the game. And what's more I have rested during playthroughs every time the characters say something just to make sure I don't miss out on dialogues.

I can't even imagine a DM allowing such an idiotic gameplay. No. Once you kill the guards at the entrance, you keep going until the cult is dead. If the PCs are really struggling to get to the end, you give them help via NPCs or you let them rest with some sort of ramifications - ie. The cult discovers the bodies and is on high alert. SOMETHING happens that makes sense.

BG3 is not alone in this. Kingmaker is just as bad, or worse, actually. I literally went into the Stag Lord's base, killed some guys, left, camped on the world map, returned to the Outpost, sold equipment and returned, camped some more on the world map, and then went back into his base. Nothing changed. No one was discovered and no alert. Nothing.

I get it's a video game, but it doesn't matter. If they want this game to be THE D&D game, they need to fix this. Stop making every encounter based on the idea that you'll be fully rested each fight, and encourage SR while discouraging LR. I have created untold numbers of campaigns and modules and so forth. You never build quests where players are able to, and even required to, LR frequently. The whole trick is to build them so that players can adventure as long as possible before a single LR.

I personally like the approach where the game assumes that you are rested before each fight.
This makes it easier to adjust the difficulty of the fights and be sure that the player will be able to handle it.
I don't understand why the game shouldn't be dnd if it doesn't limit rest. I cannot recall any dnd game that actually has any limitation in resting.
In the case of BG 1 and 2, most often you did not even have to return to another area to rest, it was usually enough to move a bit to be away from the enemies.

At least it's not as annoying as pathfinder games where the "design" of the fights is to put too powerful enemies too early and ridiculous stat boosts.
Whoever tried to fight shadow demon votary in drezen on some higher difficulty level (core or higher) probably knows it.
Posted By: mrfuji3 Re: Short Rest Poll - 01/06/22 02:59 PM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Originally Posted by Aphex81
You are missing the best option: remove resting alltoghether and go back to cooldowns.

Cool downs? 😴

Boring. Pointless. Annoying. I could just go afk for a few minutes, get something to eat and drink, and rest as much as I need. What is the limit? Waiting painstakingly until the cool down is complete.
I think you're missing the point of cooldowns. They're only relevant during combat, and ~immediately are restored after combat ends, so there's no point or even ability to just wait them out. Cooldowns are essentially equivalent to balancing the game around fully resting after every fight - encounters are made more difficult and classes are balanced for single fights. Honestly, as the game is now (where you're encouraged to rest frequently to get camp cutscenes) cooldowns would be a better fit.

Sure, it's not exactly D&D rules. But I'd prefer a better, more balanced, more tactical game over the conflicting combination of D&D class design + unlimited/encouraged long resting we have now.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Short Rest Poll - 02/06/22 01:45 AM
Originally Posted by mrfuji3
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Originally Posted by Aphex81
You are missing the best option: remove resting alltoghether and go back to cooldowns.

Cool downs? 😴

Boring. Pointless. Annoying. I could just go afk for a few minutes, get something to eat and drink, and rest as much as I need. What is the limit? Waiting painstakingly until the cool down is complete.
I think you're missing the point of cooldowns. They're only relevant during combat, and ~immediately are restored after combat ends, so there's no point or even ability to just wait them out. Cooldowns are essentially equivalent to balancing the game around fully resting after every fight - encounters are made more difficult and classes are balanced for single fights. Honestly, as the game is now (where you're encouraged to rest frequently to get camp cutscenes) cooldowns would be a better fit.

Sure, it's not exactly D&D rules. But I'd prefer a better, more balanced, more tactical game over the conflicting combination of D&D class design + unlimited/encouraged long resting we have now.

Ah. I misunderstood. You are right. I'd prefer what you said over this 5 minutes of adventure and 24 hours of rest nonsense they've made. At least with cool downs you'd keep adventuring rather than resting more than adventuring.

That said, I'd really really prefer that they do something that actually limits long rest spamming so it's more like 5e, and they make encounters built around characters surviving multiple fights without needing to long rest often.
Posted By: JandK Re: Short Rest Poll - 02/06/22 01:58 AM
I wonder. Does anyone actually rest all that often? The biggest problem I have is that I keep going and forgetting to rest because I don't need to or because I'd rather move on to the next encounter instead of camping.

Usually, the most compelling reason I have to camp is that I want the scenes and dreams to unfold. And even still, it's rare that I get around to resting.

People talk about how there's no limitation on resting, as if players are fighting then resting then fighting then resting. I don't think most people are playing that way. I suppose only Larian knows, but it seems to me that constantly going to camp instead of exploring the next area/room would be annoying.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Short Rest Poll - 02/06/22 02:39 AM
The actual point for me isn't so much that I need the game to prevent me from long resting too much. It's that short rest is pointless in the game currently. I hardly ever use it and have to force myself to because I CAN long rest instead without an issue and the long rest benefits are better.

It's also that I can long rest and burning buildings don't burn out, tadpole changes never start, the ritual never ends, enemies never notice you killed the guards at the gate, etc.

It's also that long rest is promoted by characters even though I haven't hardly adventured. They're tired after 5 minutes of exploring.

It's also that food is meaningless and doesn't really limit anything. It's just pointless additional item management.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Short Rest Poll - 02/06/22 02:50 AM
Originally Posted by Rhobar121
I personally like the approach where the game assumes that you are rested before each fight.
This makes it easier to adjust the difficulty of the fights and be sure that the player will be able to handle it.
I don't understand why the game shouldn't be dnd if it doesn't limit rest. I cannot recall any dnd game that actually has any limitation in resting.
In the case of BG 1 and 2, most often you did not even have to return to another area to rest, it was usually enough to move a bit to be away from the enemies.

At least it's not as annoying as pathfinder games where the "design" of the fights is to put too powerful enemies too early and ridiculous stat boosts.
Whoever tried to fight shadow demon votary in drezen on some higher difficulty level (core or higher) probably knows it.

It's because it makes no sense from an immersion standpoint. HP is like stamina. It's how much you can endure before you pass out. Resting is about recovering that stamina and repairing armor and mending injuries. Short rest is slapping on patches and band aids.

If you are fully rested between every fight, you destroy the entire system. The whole logic behind the mechanics is thrown out the window. Instead of being a slowly learning and advancing hero who gradually gets to the place where you can face intellect devourers, you begin as Rambo wiping out cambions at level 1, and a lot of it has to do with full restoration between every fight.
Posted By: mrfuji3 Re: Short Rest Poll - 02/06/22 02:58 AM
It's also that you're explicitly encouraged to rest as often as possible to ensure you don't miss any (easily-missable) long rest cutscenes. Which is at odds with conserving resources over the D&D Adventuring Day™
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Short Rest Poll - 02/06/22 06:26 AM
You know? Honestly, if they chose to do away with resting mechanics and did cool downs, the game still wouldn't work because they've designed the story around, "You are running out of time before you transform.". It all goes back to them setting it up as you are on borrowed time, but then they don't follow up with making time a reality. If cool downs were their solution, End Day would never happen. The whole EA would be 1 day with no Raphael or Dream Lover, etc.

This brings it all right back to why I think the best solution is story-based changes to the BG3 world after X number of long rests. The whole freaking story is set up already for this, but they haven't followed through.

After 1 long rest from the time you visit the inn, it should be burnt down.

After 3-6 (whatever they think fits best) long rests from when you arrive at the grove, the ritual should be complete or something else should happen to restart it again.

After 2-3 days of ignoring Lae'zel and not finding her Gith patrol, she should temporarily leave.

Same with Wyll and the goblin leaders.

After you trigger the hag/Mayrina side quest, every time you long rest, a redcap or some other minion should be generated and placed in your path before you get to her in her lair and she comments on how it took you SO long. She was growing bored and impatient.

After 3 days from the landing on the beach, you have your first Dream Lover dream, but you have it sooner if you actually used tadpole powers. After that, you have another in 6 days unless you use tadpole powers repeatedly. Then you have the second 1 day sooner per use of powers. After that, same as second dream.

These types of things make sense from a story perspective and would dramatically make the game more replayable and like a true RPG.
Posted By: Flooter Re: Short Rest Poll - 02/06/22 08:55 AM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
This brings it all right back to why I think the best solution is story-based changes to the BG3 world after X number of long rests. The whole freaking story is set up already for this, but they haven't followed through.
The engine is also set up to count passing days. It makes me think the time shaped hole in BG3 is a sign of ongoing construction rather than an oversight.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Short Rest Poll - 02/06/22 10:29 AM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
5 minutes of adventure and 24 hours of rest nonsense
Its kinda fascinating how hard you stick to this (your own) headcannon, even tho you dismiss it as nonsense with the same breath. O_o

Originally Posted by GM4Him
After 1 long rest from the time you visit the inn, it should be burnt down.

After 3-6 (whatever they think fits best) long rests from when you arrive at the grove, the ritual should be complete or something else should happen to restart it again.

After 2-3 days of ignoring Lae'zel and not finding her Gith patrol, she should temporarily leave.

Same with Wyll and the goblin leaders.

After you trigger the hag/Mayrina side quest, every time you long rest, a redcap or some other minion should be generated and placed in your path before you get to her in her lair and she comments on how it took you SO long. She was growing bored and impatient.

After 3 days from the landing on the beach, you have your first Dream Lover dream, but you have it sooner if you actually used tadpole powers. After that, you have another in 6 days unless you use tadpole powers repeatedly. Then you have the second 1 day sooner per use of powers. After that, same as second dream.
Interesting ideas ... +1 to all.
Posted By: mr_planescapist Re: Short Rest Poll - 02/06/22 10:42 AM
I would gladly accept a more linear and restricted approach to resting (one long, one short per area. Want more? add difficult random encounters or some kind of environmental restriction…)
This is a <tactical> turn base rpg by all accounts? Then make resting part of the tactic. Unlimited rests is like having unlimited spell slots. Its a cheat in my book. Should be turned off by default. Food/Supplies is just a gimmic at this point.

Hated this in BG2 (unlimited rests). There is a mod (SCS probably..)that apart from city/inns or safe areas you can only rest ONCE. Then you have mobs spawn (tied to that area) in you try to rest more. Changes the whole dinamic of the game. You now hold on to your potions/abilities like gold, careful with powerful spells…to be used at the right time…you need to make IMPORTANT TACTICAL decisions because you are not tied to a reset button.
Posted By: Icelyn Re: Short Rest Poll - 02/06/22 11:54 AM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
This brings it all right back to why I think the best solution is story-based changes to the BG3 world after X number of long rests.
Please no timed quests!
Posted By: Elebhra Re: Short Rest Poll - 02/06/22 12:31 PM
I actually don’t mind timed quests. That said, I remember that it was probably most hated part of Kingmaker so implementing this in BG3 would be a bad thing.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Short Rest Poll - 02/06/22 12:41 PM
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by GM4Him
5 minutes of adventure and 24 hours of rest nonsense
Its kinda fascinating how hard you stick to this (your own) headcannon, even tho you dismiss it as nonsense with the same breath. O_o

Originally Posted by GM4Him
After 1 long rest from the time you visit the inn, it should be burnt down.

After 3-6 (whatever they think fits best) long rests from when you arrive at the grove, the ritual should be complete or something else should happen to restart it again.

After 2-3 days of ignoring Lae'zel and not finding her Gith patrol, she should temporarily leave.

Same with Wyll and the goblin leaders.

After you trigger the hag/Mayrina side quest, every time you long rest, a redcap or some other minion should be generated and placed in your path before you get to her in her lair and she comments on how it took you SO long. She was growing bored and impatient.

After 3 days from the landing on the beach, you have your first Dream Lover dream, but you have it sooner if you actually used tadpole powers. After that, you have another in 6 days unless you use tadpole powers repeatedly. Then you have the second 1 day sooner per use of powers. After that, same as second dream.
Interesting ideas ... +1 to all.

This is humorous to me.

First, let me say, that it is not headcannon, as you keep accusing. It is based on literal gameplay. I have played the game multiple times through, and I have literally rested, run through Moonhaven to Risen Road, and had one of my companions say, "It's been a long day. Let's get some rest," or something similar. This scenario has happened more times than I can count. The companions nag me to long rest when we haven't even done anything, or especially after a single battle. AND unless I actually DO long rest that often, I miss out on certain companion dialogues. Also, I HAVE played it this way on numerous playthroughs because I can and I want to make sure I'm not missing anything (like new companion dialogues). It is 100% fact that you CAN play it this way, and frankly you SHOULD play it this way if you want to not die when you first play through the game.

You see, long-term players like us who have been playing this game since it came out for EA know what to expect and can push the long rests out easily enough. No problem. But what about new players? What is their experience?

Here's a real example of a new player's experience - one of my family members:

Crash on the beach. Meet Shadowheart. Fight 3 intellect devourers. Doesn't know anything about them. Is playing a fighter. Rushes up to the nearest with her longsword and shield. Hits. Doesn't kill the first. Gets attacked and is taken out in one round. Uses Shadowheart to kill them. Barely survives. Long rest. Meets fishermen. Fights them. Bad RNG. Long rest because dang things went poorly. Reaches dank crypt and fights Gimble and company. Tough fight. Long rest. Fights Mari and Barton and company. Another near-death experience. Long rest. Fights skeleton mages. Nearly dies. Long rest. Reaches the grove at the gate and rushes into battle. Nearly dies. Long rest even before entering the grove at that very moment for fear that if she enters the grove she might trigger another fight that will finish her off.

This is BAD RPG'ing. It is why I keep constantly saying they need to revamp encounters. You are supposed to fight easy, baby monsters at levels 1 and 2 so that new players can learn the game well. Instead of fighting imps and intellect devourers at levels 1 and 2, we should be fighting baby thralls and lemures and manes and other easy enemies so that we can learn the game system without getting pummeled by monsters with resistance and special attacks and so forth. New players should be able to reach the grove on a single run without needing to long rest, or at the very least a single long rest. But instead, the encounters are designed to challenge experienced players right from the beginning even allowing players to attack cambions and mind flayers. (Now, mind you, I don't mind ALLOWING such things, but my point is that the design of encounters is way overpowered. If it wasn't they wouldn't have nerfed imps and intellect devourers.)

Anyway, the point is that it isn't headcannon. It's legit, and it has happened more than once to people I know. Also, I've seen others post the same sentiment. The game is designed for you to, and promotes you to, long rest after each fight. 5 minutes of adventure, and 24 hours of rest.

Now for the other part. I find it a bit humorous that you found it interesting and +1'd it when I've said pretty much the same thing numerous times before and you resisted it because I called it timed events. I changed it to "story-based changes" and suddenly you +1 it.

Still didn't trip up Icelyn though. smile

In regards to this, I can't tell you how stupid it is for me. I'm not picking on Larian with this. I recently played through the Stag Lord base in Pathfinder and found the same thing occurring. I'm going into the Stag Lord's base, kill a bunch of his guys, spend days returning to the outpost and resting and healing, and I return to find it just the way I left it. I thought to myself, "You've got me on timed quests to make sure I complete this mission in a set number of days, which makes sense and all, but then you let me kill a bunch of Stag Lord minions and spend days resting and return with NOTHING having changed? That makes no sense at all. THAT is what we mean by "video-gamey". If it was a real RPG with a DM, the DM would be like, "Fine. You can return to the outpost, rest and so forth, but I can guarantee to you that the entire place will be on alert the time you return. Guaranteed."

This is what I'm talking about with BG3. I'm not asking for, "You must rescue the grove in 3 days or the tieflings will be kicked out and the ritual will be complete," or, "You must go to the gith patrol by Day 2 after you meet Lae'zel or she leaves your party permanently." I'm just looking for things to make sense such as, "If you long rest after you arrive at Waukeen's Rest and see it burning, the fires are out and you don't rescue the counselor." Why? Because it makes sense that if you see a burning building and you do nothing, it'll burn down and you've missed your opportunity, ESPECIALLY if you decided to spend the rest of the day napping after you first saw it burning. You should not be able to return to it 3 days later and still see it burning and still be able to rescue the counselor. Nothing about that makes any sense.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Short Rest Poll - 02/06/22 12:46 PM
Originally Posted by Icelyn
Please no timed quests!
I think i know ...
But lately it seems that im often wrong about people so ... can you tell us why? smile
Posted By: kanisatha Re: Short Rest Poll - 02/06/22 02:35 PM
Originally Posted by Icelyn
Originally Posted by GM4Him
This brings it all right back to why I think the best solution is story-based changes to the BG3 world after X number of long rests.
Please no timed quests!
Yes, agreed 110%!! Hate timed quests.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Short Rest Poll - 02/06/22 02:43 PM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
it is not headcannon
Im affraid it is ... since headcannon is defined as:
"Ideas held by fans of series that are not explicitly supported by sanctioned text or other media."

And there is nothing supporting the idea that the game presents its world literally.
If there is, please show me. smile And i gladly admit that i was wrong and i falsely acused you.

Originally Posted by GM4Him
It is based on literal gameplay.
Yup ... literall, and that is the problem. laugh
We have talked about this several times allready so i try to not repeat myself ...

I try to turn it around this time ...
Lets presume you are corect and the game space indeed presents its world literally ... if that is the case, things should make sense, corect?

Then let me ask:
Imagine a situation ... group traveled from Beach to Blighted Willage ... they killed some weak (possibly injured) intellect devourers, scared some raiders away, kill some others, raided a tomb fighted some skeletons, fighted some goblins later by Grove gates, and explored harper camp ...
During all those adventurers they rested 2 times ...
So the travel from Beach to Blighted Willage took them 3 days in total, yes?

Now the question is:
How the hells do they manage to spint all the way back in less than 5 minutes? laugh

Obvious answer would be:
They dont ... the map isnt literall representation of the world and all that abstract walking it would require was cut out bcs it would be boring gameplay.

But im looking forward for yours. smile

Originally Posted by GM4Him
The companions nag me to long rest when we haven't even done anything, or especially after a single battle.
What do you mean "havent even done anything" ?
You just said they traveled from Moonhaven to Risen Road ... that is whole 2 day long walking. laugh

Some time ago (a year ago i believe) i posted for you this map ...
And i took under concideration that one of Tieflings tells you that they are 10 days of traveling far from Baldur's Gate ... so i cut the road to Baldur's Gate into 10 aproximately (i used exactly same line for measuring, but its hard to pick exact spot on that map, thats why aproximately) separate pieces ...

And do you remember what i have discovered?
Most landmarks are distanced 1 day walking from each other ...
Grove and Blighted WIllage? 1 day walking ...
Beach and Grove? 1 day ...
Blighted Willage and Tollhouse? 2 days ...
Tollhouse and Waukeen's Rest? 1 day ...

So you say your party "didnt do anything" ...
After you send them to travel without single rest distance that usualy takes two days. laugh

Originally Posted by GM4Him
AND unless I actually DO long rest that often, I miss out on certain companion dialogues.
Well ...
I dare to presume that would be the reason Larian invented partial Long rest, when you complete dialogues but dont refill all (or even any of ... not sure if you can "rest" without using any resources, or if at least 1 unit is required) your resources. smile

Now imagine timed events would be implemented for whole world ... (Since one is allready there)
Every time you would go to Long Rest you would need to squeeze maximum out of it ... and you would think twice (more likely thrice) before every rest if that is the corect time and place ...
What for would partial rest be? smile

As it is now, you can rest to just proc your conversations (for system limiation you cant talk just anywhere ... even tho im still quite sure it would be possible using my stage suggestion, but it would most likely require too much additional work this far in development) ...
Or you can rest to regain your resources ... so unless you want to be extremely picky about what exactly is happening on screen ... you can quite easily pretend that partial long rests was actualy no rest at all, just two person talking, nothing more. laugh

Originally Posted by GM4Him
Crash on the beach.
Question: Why are you skipping prolog?
That is also part of the adventure you know! And if i can judge, that allone would be quite exhausting ... both physicaly, and most importantly mentally!

And just for the record, nobody knows how rested we were before we were kidnapped ... so unless we want to count that odd magical stasis Illithis put us into in their pods as rest ... that would be just another exhaustion to add. smile

Originally Posted by GM4Him
imps and intellect devourers ... getting pummeled by monsters with resistance and special attacks and so forth.
But we ARE fighting easy, baby monsters ...
They just took form of imps and intellect devourers ...

That combat your relative had problem with would work exacly as bad if s/he would be fighting baby rats with exactly same statistics. laugh

You are the the one who keeps complaining that Intellect devourers without special attacks, and imps without resistances are "not actualy Itellect devourers and imps" ...
So im quite confused now. O_o

Originally Posted by GM4Him
Anyway, the point is that it isn't headcannon...
5 minutes of adventure, and 24 hours of rest.
Sadly ... it is. smile
1 min ingame =/= 1 min in reality ...

Anything you do in between two Long Rests (resting included) takes you 24h ... that much is true, by the rules.
So everything you did during that 5 real minutes combined you have to spread to remaining time.

Have you traveled somewhere?
Have you fighted someone?
Have you talked with someone?
Have you explored something?
Have you solved some puzzle?
Those are important questions for that ...

That means (for easy counting lets round up to whole hours):
Day starts with Long Rest ... if i remember rules corectly, it takes 8h ... So 16h left to spend ...
Exploring the beach + meeting and talking with Shadowheart ... 1h ... 15 left
Fight intellect devourers ... 1h ... 14 left
Short rest - by rules "at least 1h" ... you said they barely made it out alive, so lets count 2 ... 13 left
Fight with fisherman ... 1h ... 12h left
Short rest - by rules "at least 1h" ... you said they barely made it out alive, so lets count 2 ... 10 left
Gimblebog ... lets say they talked him out this time (you said your relative played Fighter, fithers can talk Gimblebog without rolling) ... 1h ... 9 left
Fight with looters inside the tomb ... 1h ... 8 left
(sadly we have no more short rests)
Exploring the tomb + solving puzzle (aka trap in the sarcophagus room) ... 2h ... 6 left
Fight with skelletons ... 1h ... 5h left ...
Traveling to the Grove ... 2h ... 3h left ...
Fight by the gates ... 2h (its a big one compared to others) ... 1h left ...
Finaly ... LONG REST ... and i bet after 16 hour of walking, climbing, fighting and being injured ( laugh ) your party would litteraly fall to their beds. laugh

So as you can see, with a little imagination, there is no problem to stretch up whole adventure from Beach to Emerald Grove into whole day ... and yet, if you would take it "literally" ... it would never took more than 2hours. O_o
THAT is reason why i keep telling you that this game is abstract ... laugh

Of course you can see it as your group was actualy traveling to this whole during 2h ... and then they gathered in their camp and say "lets rest for 22h" ...
Its up to you, just ask youreself wich scenario seems more logical to you. laugh

Originally Posted by GM4Him
Now for the other part. I find it a bit humorous that you found it interesting and +1'd it when I've said pretty much the same thing numerous times before and you resisted it because I called it timed events. I changed it to "story-based changes" and suddenly you +1 it.
I would like to ask you for single example. laugh
(I can save you some time, tho: There isnt any. wink )

Since as far as i know, i allways said that personaly i like and support the idea of timed events ... but i doubt Larian would implement them, bcs there is many other people who despite it. wink

Actualy i would like to apply timed events for whole map ... as i also several times expressed in the past ... i will purposefully repeat myself in this example, i wonder if it rings any bell:

I would like timed events to count with different part of the map ... take Blighted Willage as example ...
You can either go to North, find Goblin Camp, and their interrogated prisoner ...
Or you can go to West, find Swamp, and Ethel arguing with some farmers ...
Or you can go North/East, find Mountains, and two guys surrouned by Gnolls ...
> What i want to see is that:
If your party decide to go to North ... Ethell will kill those farmers ... and Gnolls will eat those Zhentarims ....
If your party decide to go to West ... prisoner will reveal position of the Grove, and raid starts without you have any chance to stop it (preemptively, you can still manage to get back and defend) ... and Gnolls will eat those Zhentarims ...
If your party decide to go to North/East ... prisoner will reveal position of the Grove, and raid starts without you have any chance to stop it (preemptively, you can still manage to get back and defend) ... and Ethell will kill those farmers ...

That i would really like, since every single playthrough i would have COMPLETELY different world to explore based purely on my choices. smile

Originally Posted by GM4Him
DM would be like
I would say that really depend on DM. smile
But i gues you wanted to say something like "me as a DM would be like" and that is totally fine. smile
Posted By: Icelyn Re: Short Rest Poll - 02/06/22 04:37 PM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Still didn't trip up Icelyn though. smile
😜

Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by Icelyn
Please no timed quests!
I think i know ...
But lately it seems that im often wrong about people so ... can you tell us why? smile
I love doing all the quests and taking my time exploring and talking to people and animals! When I know a quest is timed, I feel pressured to rush and skip other quests. Even worse if I don’t know a timed quest is timed, and then it suddenly fails!
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Short Rest Poll - 02/06/22 11:10 PM
See. There's a difference between what I'm suggesting and timed events.

Example of timed event: You arrive at the grove and learn there is a ritual that will be completed in 3 days. If you don't complete the ritual in 3 days, the tieflings are kicked out and the grove is sealed off. Mission failed. GG. Guess we'll get 'em next time.

Example of what I'm suggesting: You arrive at the grove and learn there is a ritual. No one says how long it'll take. You ignore the quest and long rest 3 times. Someone shows up at camp and says the ritual was interrupted by Rath. Phshew! You still have time, but by doing this Larian is letting you know that you might want to focus a bit more on that questline. Still no exact time given, but now there's a bit of a follow up on the initial threat the game already gave you.

See. The game gives you several vaguely timed quests but then doesn't follow through at all. That's part of my issue with it.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Short Rest Poll - 03/06/22 02:08 AM
@Ragnarok

Here's my issue with your theory about the map and the entire premise of your argument:

If I can move 60 feet per 6 seconds (1 round) and spend several rounds running from the intellect devourers on the beach to encounter the fishermen and the mind flayer and then run from there at 60 feet per 6 seconds to the dank crypt and trigger ALL the enemies in all three areas to attack me in a single combat, that means I literally went that distance. In minutes at most in the game, I can make it to Moonhaven if I just keep running there, and I can even trigger goblins attacking me in a single combat encounter, then that means it doesn't take hours or days of travel.

See. If they split the maps into smaller segments, then I'd agree with you. If I could run to a map exit that transitioned me from the grove to Moonhaven, we would not be having this conversation.

But they didn't do that. It's 1 fluid map location that you can literally travel through 1 foot at a time.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Short Rest Poll - 03/06/22 02:12 PM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
You arrive at the grove and learn there is a ritual. No one says how long it'll take. You ignore the quest and long rest 3 times. Someone shows up at camp and says the ritual was interrupted by Rath. Phshew! You still have time, but by doing this Larian is letting you know that you might want to focus a bit more on that questline. Still no exact time given, but now there's a bit of a follow up on the initial threat the game already gave you.
But sooner or later that ritual will be finished.

So you either are just creating long, but still regular timed event ...
Or there isnt any timing at all, since the ritual will never be finished ... and you just add some npcs that will keep reminding player that some quest should be taken care off first, creating ilusion of urgency ... wich dissapear by the way the second you reach last reminder and still nothing happens ...

Also i must say i dont quite like the idea that some messenger come to your camp to tell you how things look back in the grove ... :-/
Its just feels off ... like:
"Oh hey traveler, Zevlor send me to give you a message that things are really tough in the grove, Rath interupted the ritual so we have few more days, since they are starting anew ... not like you seem to care, since i find you in the underdark, where you traveled for last week, but i managed to catch up to you within single day." :-/


Originally Posted by GM4Him
trigger ALL the enemies in all three areas to attack me in a single combat
Yes ...

Originally Posted by GM4Him
In minutes at most in the game
Yes ...

Originally Posted by GM4Him
then that means it doesn't take hours or days of travel.
No. smile
Thats where the abstraction come to play ...

In the game it takes you minutes to get from Intellect devourers to Crypt entrance, just as you said ... but from story perspective, you just spend (half?) day runing. laugh
(note that i didnt say Intellect devourers and fishermans ... they are both in the same ship wreckage ... and therefore the same "segment" wink )
Dont imagine it as "sprinting all the time" obviously ... its more like chasing scene in the movie, or book ... where enemies are close behind, so hero cant even rest properly and in first sign of any danger is forced to continue.

As i said ...
1 min ingame =/= 1 min in reality ...
And therefore logicaly ... 1 meter ingame =/= 1 meter in reality ...

Originally Posted by GM4Him
If they split the maps into smaller segments...

But they didn't do that.
No, they didnt ... i believe this is paradox of lacking "technical limiations" from the past ...

Many old games was forced to create theese small segments, bcs computers back then would have performance issues with anything bigger ...
So theese things come naturaly, i remember for example Fallout ...

Theese days our computers are more capable, so devs often see no reason to cut map into small areas and put loading in between them ... especialy since loading = boring for many players ... so they simply take those small areas we would have in the past, and stick them together. laugh

But the logic for them remained intact in my opinion ...
So we have small segments that are litteral (more or less, more like less in my opinion tho laugh ) and then there are places where miles and miles of forest / road / rocks / water / lava / w/e WOULD BE ... but since they dont provide anything interesting for gameplay, they were simply cut out.

Like ...
I dunno, Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodhunt would be great example ... but i gues you didnt play that huh?
Thats ingame map that was created by real city, Prague.
Segments are faithfull ... you can recognize buildings, squares and streets ... but if you know that city, soon you realize that there isnt any Construction site few seconds running far from the main square ... its actualy few killometers away, all space between them was cut out, bcs it would be uninteresting for players.

---

Lets take it from other side ...
What seems more logical to you?

That this game map is litteral transcription of the world ... 1f ingame = 1f in the world ...
- so Goblins are "unable to find" Grove that is litteraly 7 minutes of walking from their own outpost?
- so entrances into and out of Underdark dont actualy corespond between Surface and Underground, and yet they are connected somehow?
- so Moonhaven was a willage that indeed sustains from 5 buildings and nothing more.

OR ...
That this game actualy isnt litteral transcription of the world ... 1f ingame =/= 1f in the world ...
- so Goblins would have to search for day(s) before they would even reach close to the grove.
- so entrances into and out of Underdark are just entrances to some kind of tunnel or other way ... that just LEADS to that place where we get out in the Underdark?
- so Moonhaven actualy had more buildings, but they were simply cut out for keeping this development in acceptable measurements.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Short Rest Poll - 03/06/22 02:46 PM
@Ragnarok

Who's sprouting off tons of headcannon now? Everything you say is headcannon. What grounds or basis textrually do YOU have that everything is abstract? Yet you keep clinging to it harder than I am to the fact that everything is literal.

Look. It doesn't matter. God Bless America! It doesn't freaking matter.

Regardless, these facts still remain:

Roleplaying games are supposed to immerse people in the world. You are supposed to take on the ROLE of your character and act like you ARE that character. You should feel like the game world is a real, living, breathing world.

BG3 does NOT provide that. Why? Because time doesn't exist. Period. I'm not looking for super hard, or even mildly hard, timed anything. I'm looking for continuity and for things to make sense.

What doesn't make sense?

A burning building that never burns down. I see it in the dang telescope on the hill in the grove when I first get there, and it's on fire in the telescope. Even if I take 6 weeks to get to the inn, it's still on fire. That makes no freaking sense at all.

Solution? Don't allow me to see the inn burning in the telescope. If I view the inn in the telescope, it should be perfectly wonderful looking and nice and warm and cozy and friendly so that if it takes me 6 weeks to get there, it's still going to be there and be on fire starting from the moment I first see it on Risen Road as I approach it. THEN if I rest even once, the building is burned down and any side quests involved can't happen because I CHOSE to not immediately try to help people in a burning building.

Does this lock me out of quests? Potentially. I know people don't like the potential of being locked out of quests, but for the love of all that is holy, a ROLEPLAYING game is supposed to be about your choices mattering. My CHOICE in this scenario with the burning building should depend on whether I help people involved in the burning building or whether I simply don't care and walk away and leave them all to burn to death. That's my CHOICE and it SHOULD have a consequence. If it doesn't, I'm not really roleplaying.

And as far as the grove is concerned, it's the same darn thing. If I CHOOSE to ignore the ritual and the grove, I should fail to stop the ritual and save the tieflings from getting kicked out. SOMETHING should happen. Do I want them to give us only 3 days to save the grove? HECK no! Do I want them to make something happen so that it explains why the ritual isn't completed in - you know... let's just use a different time frame because I could care less whether it's 3 days or 6 or 4 or 2... however long they think the ritual should take to complete, at least providing some time frame makes it so that YOU the player know that you can't just sleep for 2 weeks and the ritual will STILL be going in some timeless void where individuals are still having the same conversations day after day after day in a Groundhog Day fashion.

I understand it's a video game, but one of my biggest hangups with this one is that there is absolutely no sense of time at all.

Again, I'm not looking for:

1. You have 3 days to save the grove or mission failed.
2. You have 2 days to reach the Gith patrol or mission failed.
3. You have 4 days to kill the goblin leaders or mission failed.

I'm looking for:

1. You have 4 days to save the grove or something happens to explain why the ritual isn't completed yet, buying you more time. Eventually, yes, after an obscene amount of time, because the DM has run out of decent excuses to prolong the quest, you will fail it - after a truly decent amount of time.

2. You have 3 days to reach the Gith patrol or Lae'zel threatens to leave you and try to go it alone. If you long rest maybe 2 times without going there, she leaves and you can find her again later once you actually go there. Nothing permanent here. Just something that says, "If you truly care about having Lae'zel in your party, you'd better get your butt moving to complete her quest.

3. You have 6 days to kill the goblin leaders. If you don't, Wyll threatens to leave the party and after long resting again he follows through. You can pick him up again later in the goblin base. He's been captured because he tried to go it alone. Also, after 6 days, new goblin patrols appear outside the grove area, showing that they are getting close to finding it.

It's the little things that add immersion to a game, and BG3 is sorely lacking in these.

But whatever. I'm done. I'm moving on to Kingmaker and then Wrath of the Righteous. The more I play them, the more I'm realizing just how many things BG3 is missing - things like time, weather, decent rest mechanics, decent combat mechanics where enemies can't yeet you 30+ feet off cliffs and into lava, etc.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Short Rest Poll - 05/06/22 10:55 AM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Everything you say is headcannon.
Exactly as i said ... glad you finaly noticed. laugh


Originally Posted by GM4Him
What grounds or basis textrually do YOU have that everything is abstract?
Few ... as i allready said aswell:
1) common sense
2) story narative
3) the way things usualy are in videogames
4) inagme map provided by developers themselves
etc.
As usualy, im not sure why i even bother listing it again, since you didnt aclowledged it until now ... like ever. :-/


Originally Posted by GM4Him
Roleplaying games are supposed to immerse people in the world. You are supposed to take on the ROLE of your character and act like you ARE that character. You should feel like the game world is a real, living, breathing world.
Yes ... and that is why you as a player needs to accept (and prefferably understand) its abstraction ...
Bcs the game is suposed to "feel like the world is real" ... with emphasis on the worlds "feel like" ... not "is". wink


Originally Posted by GM4Him
Because time doesn't exist. Period.
Sure it does ...
Its just not consistent, exactly as everything else in this game.


Originally Posted by GM4Him
I'm not looking for super hard, or even mildly hard, timed anything.
In that case you are providing the worse possible examples.


Originally Posted by GM4Him
A burning building that never burns down.
Just as another building that is barely holding together, where 3 Ogres (weight almost a Ton each) are fighting and the only part that can be broken is scaffolding added there exactly for that purpose?
That is just necesary evil in games ... some things are just not ment to be destructible.


Originally Posted by GM4Him
fire starting from the moment I first see it on Risen Road as I approach it.
I like this idea.

Not sure how it would work when you get there from the Underdark, through Zhentarim hideout tho.
(Not even if that is still possible to be honest. laugh )


Originally Posted by GM4Him
THEN if I rest even once, the building is burned down and any side quests involved can't happen because I CHOSE to not immediately try to help people in a burning building.
That is litteral description of "timed anything" you are "not looking for" ... :-/


Originally Posted by GM4Him
That's my CHOICE and it SHOULD have a consequence. If it doesn't, I'm not really roleplaying.
Agreed ...
If you CHOOSE to rest ... and then you CHOOSE to anyway go complete sidequests, you feel like you should not have anymore, you are not really roleplaying.

I mean ...
"I know people don't like the option to play the way they want, while leting others play any way they want, but for the love of all that is holy, a ROLEPLAYING game is supposed to be about your choices mattering." ... So make them matter yourself, you have the power, i believe in you. wink


Originally Posted by GM4Him
Again, I'm not looking for:
[...]

I'm looking for:
[...]
Yeah i know ...
Basicaly you are looking for:
"you have 3 days to save the grove ... and if you dont, you have 3 more days to save the grove ... and if you dont, you have 3 more days to save the grove ... and if you dont, you have 3 more days to save the grove ... and if you dont, the grove is doomed."

Quite honestly ... i would rather have "you have 12 days to save the grove" and finish ...
Since by using this scenario you described, new player would after first (or maybe second, or third delay) naturaly get expression that there is no hurry, since something that would give him more time will occur again.
And that would lead to exactly what Icelyn descibed, when she talked about failing a quest due to time limit you didnt actualy even know about.


Originally Posted by GM4Him
I'm moving on to Kingmaker and then Wrath of the Righteous.
/wave
Posted By: robertthebard Re: Short Rest Poll - 08/06/22 06:05 PM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Wow. So much knit picking. The overall point I was making was that LR is only a slight inconvenience. So the value of SR is really quality of life. It's healing with a single click as opposed to going to camp and getting full healing.

Yes. LR CAN be more time consuming. Dialogues may occur, etc. But especially in late EA, when you LR, it's pretty much pop to camp, click bedroll, click auto-food select, watch campfire, back to map. Instead of 1 second heal, it's maybe 10? And the benefits of LR are way better?

Isn't this working as intended? Now, I quit TT with 4e, but my understanding is that LRs should be better than SRs, that's why they're LRs, right?

Quote
Again, my issue is 5 minutes of adventure, 24 hours rest. THAT is BG3. And it's encouraged by the game. I can't tell you how many times the characters say, "Gosh. I'm tired. We should get some rest.". After 5-10 minutes of adventure. I have literally LR'd on a number of occasions, and almost immediately, even before a single fight, had characters say we should get some rest. It's dumb.

Then why do you do it? I have missed more content because I don't take a lot of LRs than I've seen, and if it weren't for YouTube, I wouldn't even know it, well, largely, some I do find out about here, after all. I haven't felt "encouraged" to do that, and I'm not even a big stickler for the rules, so why is it a problem for you, if you are a stickler for the rules?
Posted By: mrfuji3 Re: Short Rest Poll - 08/06/22 07:36 PM
Originally Posted by robertthebard
Then why do you do it? I have missed more content because I don't take a lot of LRs than I've seen, and if it weren't for YouTube, I wouldn't even know it, well, largely, some I do find out about here, after all. I haven't felt "encouraged" to do that, and I'm not even a big stickler for the rules, so why is it a problem for you, if you are a stickler for the rules?
It's a problem at the very least because it's a loss of content for no reason. Most of the cutscenes don't need to be tied to long resting: Gale can (should be able to) talk to us about the Weave literally any time of day, etc. Only like 4 cutscenes require night-time: Astarion, the party after defeating/invading the Grove, and the initial tadpole-sickness one.

Also, the game doesn't warn you that this will happen. Many people familiar with D&D design (or who just treat the tadpole problem as seriously urgent) will end up delaying long resting. And they'll be punished for this by losing out on content, not realizing they missed things until (hopefully not that much) later in the game because the game doesn't warn you of this. Which can just be a sucky feeling, and makes it seem like BG3/Larian is playing a cruel trick on you. If it was a conscious decision to put off long resting with the knowledge that you'll miss game content, that's a different story. But it isn't.

If you are perfectly fine with missing content, that's fine. You do you. But that doesn't mean others should be fine with it.
Posted By: robertthebard Re: Short Rest Poll - 08/06/22 08:49 PM
Originally Posted by mrfuji3
Originally Posted by robertthebard
Then why do you do it? I have missed more content because I don't take a lot of LRs than I've seen, and if it weren't for YouTube, I wouldn't even know it, well, largely, some I do find out about here, after all. I haven't felt "encouraged" to do that, and I'm not even a big stickler for the rules, so why is it a problem for you, if you are a stickler for the rules?
It's a problem at the very least because it's a loss of content for no reason. Most of the cutscenes don't need to be tied to long resting: Gale can (should be able to) talk to us about the Weave literally any time of day, etc. Only like 4 cutscenes require night-time: Astarion, the party after defeating/invading the Grove, and the initial tadpole-sickness one.

Also, the game doesn't warn you that this will happen. Many people familiar with D&D design (or who just treat the tadpole problem as seriously urgent) will end up delaying long resting. And they'll be punished for this by losing out on content, not realizing they missed things until (hopefully not that much) later in the game because the game doesn't warn you of this. Which can just be a sucky feeling, and makes it seem like BG3/Larian is playing a cruel trick on you. If it was a conscious decision to put off long resting with the knowledge that you'll miss game content, that's a different story. But it isn't.

If you are perfectly fine with missing content, that's fine. You do you. But that doesn't mean others should be fine with it.

I agree about comp content, and tadpole stuff needing to have different triggers than LRs. The point was more to the fact that, despite all the "but everyone just spams LRs", I don't. Even knowing I'm missing out, I don't. So there's no "the game encourages it" for me. I've suggested before that we just get the quest marker on comps that have dialog to share. It already exists in one form or another, they just need to apply it to story beats that are tied behind LRs currently. The first LR is fine as is, as it could be considered a "tutorial", and those events are fine as they are, but yes, there needs to be a system to let us know that things are going on that we're unaware of, that we should be aware of.

In context with the thread though, I'm not sure how removing or changing the limitations on SRs and then complaining about LRs being in the same state is going to help with that.
Posted By: mrfuji3 Re: Short Rest Poll - 08/06/22 09:15 PM
Originally Posted by robertthebard
I agree about comp content, and tadpole stuff needing to have different triggers than LRs. The point was more to the fact that, despite all the "but everyone just spams LRs", I don't. Even knowing I'm missing out, I don't. So there's no "the game encourages it" for me. I've suggested before that we just get the quest marker on comps that have dialog to share. It already exists in one form or another, they just need to apply it to story beats that are tied behind LRs currently. The first LR is fine as is, as it could be considered a "tutorial", and those events are fine as they are, but yes, there needs to be a system to let us know that things are going on that we're unaware of, that we should be aware of.

In context with the thread though, I'm not sure how removing or changing the limitations on SRs and then complaining about LRs being in the same state is going to help with that.
+1 for quest markers on comps that have dialog. I'm perfectly fine with the slightly gamey/unimmersive floating exclamation points over their heads if it means that I don't have to do a full LR to check for new dialogue.

Honestly I'm not exactly sure where this thread is with regards to SRs, but my rough understanding is: LRs are practically as easy to do as SRs and have so many more benefits (cutscenes, full restore of abilities), so SRs become practically useless. If you're saying that changing #of SRs without changing LR mechanics is useless, then I agree. Both are tied and need to be considered together.
Posted By: robertthebard Re: Short Rest Poll - 08/06/22 09:22 PM
Originally Posted by mrfuji3
Originally Posted by robertthebard
I agree about comp content, and tadpole stuff needing to have different triggers than LRs. The point was more to the fact that, despite all the "but everyone just spams LRs", I don't. Even knowing I'm missing out, I don't. So there's no "the game encourages it" for me. I've suggested before that we just get the quest marker on comps that have dialog to share. It already exists in one form or another, they just need to apply it to story beats that are tied behind LRs currently. The first LR is fine as is, as it could be considered a "tutorial", and those events are fine as they are, but yes, there needs to be a system to let us know that things are going on that we're unaware of, that we should be aware of.

In context with the thread though, I'm not sure how removing or changing the limitations on SRs and then complaining about LRs being in the same state is going to help with that.
+1 for quest markers on comps that have dialog. I'm perfectly fine with the slightly gamey/unimmersive floating exclamation points over their heads if it means that I don't have to do a full LR to check for new dialogue.

Honestly I'm not exactly sure where this thread is with regards to SRs, but my rough understanding is: LRs are practically as easy to do as SRs and have so many more benefits (cutscenes, full restore of abilities), so SRs become practically useless. If you're saying that changing #of SRs without changing LR mechanics is useless, then I agree. Both are tied and need to be considered together.

I don't remember who posted it, but there was a thing about making a LR require a set number of SRs, and limiting SRs by time played. That's fine, for resting, but doesn't address the issues I have, which we've already covered here. It just seems odd that the thread is about removing/changing the way SRs work to make it more like how LRs currently work, while complaining about how LRs currently work.
Posted By: JandK Re: Short Rest Poll - 08/06/22 10:14 PM
The argument doesn't feel consistent. On one hand, it's saying the long rest is too easy and gets spammed after every combat. On the other hand, it's saying characters don't long rest enough to get the cut scenes.

And something about how a long rest is as easy as a short rest while also a short rest is too easy because it's a spam button that does an insta heal.
Posted By: JandK Re: Short Rest Poll - 08/06/22 10:29 PM
I would also add that RagnarokCzD is absolutely right. The distance in the game is clearly not meant to be taken literally. It's a game, and games require a certain level of suspension of disbelief.

Putting forth arguments that take the distance literally seems like a try-hard way to find fault, in my opinion.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Short Rest Poll - 09/06/22 03:06 AM
Not that it matters, because I doubt at this point they care, but robert, ya've missed the whole point of the thread.

It was not to make Short Rest like Long Rest. It was to give each a specific purpose and meaning besides Short Rest being a quick heal button press. That is currently its only real value because you can LR as much as you want for better benefits. So why SR at all?

The suggestion was and always has been to limit SR in some other way, like Hit Dice, not only 2 per day. Then do something to make LR less appealing so people will naturally want to SR more to extend a single adventuring day. LR is currently greatly promoted while SR is an after thought. It is mechanically pointless because LR is pushed by the devs in various ways.

The way the game is built, you are meant to LR after almost every fight.
Posted By: robertthebard Re: Short Rest Poll - 09/06/22 03:30 AM
So, as has been suggested before, if a LR required x number of SRs in between, and you can only SR x, or even as it is now, then SR would "mean something". There's no need to increase the number you can take "per day", as it were, simply improve the LR mechanic by requiring SRs in between. In doing so, however, we're going to need another system for story beats. As I've said countless times, I miss a lot of them because I don't LR between every encounter. I'm lucky if I LR every session. I've used SR exactly once.
Posted By: Maximuuus Re: Short Rest Poll - 09/06/22 05:03 AM
Originally Posted by JandK
I would also add that RagnarokCzD is absolutely right. The distance in the game is clearly not meant to be taken literally. It's a game, and games require a certain level of suspension of disbelief.

Putting forth arguments that take the distance literally seems like a try-hard way to find fault, in my opinion.

When a game litteraly show a bridge between two location, there is only a bridge between two locations in this world.
Not saying its better, but that's why some other games have a worldmap or even loading times between two areas.

Larian's map is unimmersive as hell even if you try hard to find "explanations". They created something in the middle of open world and small maps that has pros (no loading, faster gameplay...), but also cons (story incoherence, lack of immersion, limited exploration,...)
Posted By: mrfuji3 Re: Short Rest Poll - 09/06/22 05:24 AM
Both long and short rest mechanics (including cutscenes & dialogue) in BG3 need to be changed to fix the BG3 resting system; making changes to only one will likely do little. if anything, to help.

- Increase the # of short rests per long rest. There's no reason it should be limited to 2, especially because:
- Hit Dice are a natural limit to # of short rests. Since you only get back half with a LR, this naturally encourages players to LR when they have ~1/4 their hit die left
- Untie cutscenes from LRs, at least the ones that don't require night-time. This includes allowing dialogue while traveling in the world and/or during SRs, not just at base camp.
- Change the ability to freely LR anywhere, anytime, an ~unlimited # of times. This can be done using one or all of the following: change the food system, restrict ability to LR in certain locations, and/or have the game react to the # of times you LR (ideally, NOT by causing sudden and permanent loss of content. Changes to content and/or non-permanent effects--e.g., companion disapproval--are reasonable effects imo)
- Make the cutscene where the party initially finds out that the ceremorphosis ISN'T progressing as normal unavoidable and happen before the grove. This directly tells the player that the tadpole situation isn't actually as urgent as previously communicated.

After all or most of that is done, then limits on # of SRs needed before a LR is available or SR limits themselves can be discussed. But honestly, at that point those changes won't really be needed.
Posted By: robertthebard Re: Short Rest Poll - 09/06/22 07:09 AM
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Originally Posted by JandK
I would also add that RagnarokCzD is absolutely right. The distance in the game is clearly not meant to be taken literally. It's a game, and games require a certain level of suspension of disbelief.

Putting forth arguments that take the distance literally seems like a try-hard way to find fault, in my opinion.

When a game litteraly show a bridge between two location, there is only a bridge between two locations in this world.
Not saying its better, but that's why some other games have a worldmap or even loading times between two areas.

Larian's map is unimmersive as hell even if you try hard to find "explanations". They created something in the middle of open world and small maps that has pros (no loading, faster gameplay...), but also cons (story incoherence, lack of immersion, limited exploration,...)
...and how far apart are those areas? I've played plenty of games with a bridge that didn't lead to an area transition, or to a new area. Is it different terrain that's throwing you off or something?

Now, when I was building in NWN and NWN 2, I did use bridges for area transitions sometimes. But sometimes, a bridge is just a way to get over something that may be impassable any other way, like a river, or a chasm. Neither requires that it's an extremely long distance, however.
Posted By: Maximuuus Re: Short Rest Poll - 09/06/22 07:44 AM
Originally Posted by robertthebard
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Originally Posted by JandK
I would also add that RagnarokCzD is absolutely right. The distance in the game is clearly not meant to be taken literally. It's a game, and games require a certain level of suspension of disbelief.

Putting forth arguments that take the distance literally seems like a try-hard way to find fault, in my opinion.

When a game litteraly show a bridge between two location, there is only a bridge between two locations in this world.
Not saying its better, but that's why some other games have a worldmap or even loading times between two areas.

Larian's map is unimmersive as hell even if you try hard to find "explanations". They created something in the middle of open world and small maps that has pros (no loading, faster gameplay...), but also cons (story incoherence, lack of immersion, limited exploration,...)
...and how far apart are those areas? I've played plenty of games with a bridge that didn't lead to an area transition, or to a new area. Is it different terrain that's throwing you off or something?

Now, when I was building in NWN and NWN 2, I did use bridges for area transitions sometimes. But sometimes, a bridge is just a way to get over something that may be impassable any other way, like a river, or a chasm. Neither requires that it's an extremely long distance, however.

Oh please tell me the names of "plenty other rpgs" that have very small areas with just a bridge or anything else between them.

You know, like if Pathfinders areas had bridges between them rather than a loading time + a worldmap.
That's how the map is designed in BG3 for the better and/or the worse.

Ofc the bridge itself is not the problem... I though it was obvious.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Short Rest Poll - 09/06/22 10:51 AM
Originally Posted by robertthebard
So, as has been suggested before, if a LR required x number of SRs in between, and you can only SR x, or even as it is now, then SR would "mean something". There's no need to increase the number you can take "per day", as it were, simply improve the LR mechanic by requiring SRs in between. In doing so, however, we're going to need another system for story beats. As I've said countless times, I miss a lot of them because I don't LR between every encounter. I'm lucky if I LR every session. I've used SR exactly once.

If a LR required x # of SR in between, what is to stop you from SRing that many times and then LRing? It limits nothing and is just more annoying. Besides, it doesn't fix the main issues.

1. Dialogue is tied to LR, so LR is encouraged often.
2. Characters in the game prompt you often to "get some rest. It's been a long day."
3. Encounters are not built to promote pushing yourself to continue all the way through a story arc without LRing. Example:. The Hag. I've tried multiple times to start that quest and go all the way through to beating her without a LR. It's impossible for me. After the 4 Masks, I'm pretty much done for the day. So poor Mayrina has to wait 24 hours in a cage dangling over a pit while I go take the rest of the day off. The spider lair is the same. Try getting through the entire spider lair without LRing once. I can't do it. Maybe you can, and yay you, but I can't and I doubt a majority can as well.
4. SR is still pointless because LR has full restore benefits and SR is just a band aid. But it's limited and LR is not. So again, why SR at all when you can LR as much as you want?

I didn't even touch on all the other issues I've mentioned like a thousand times out here.
Posted By: Ruswarr Re: Short Rest Poll - 09/06/22 11:26 AM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Characters in the game prompt you often to "get some rest. It's been a long day."
I don't know how to make the whole resting system more meaningful but in case it stays fully/mostly as it is now - something like that would be a great notification about a party member wanting to have a word with PC at the camp.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Short Rest Poll - 09/06/22 12:01 PM
And I still have a problem with the map being abstract. It would be one thing if they pulled a Final Fantasy 7 (the original) where when you get into a fight you suddenly shift into an alternate plane of existence where the town of Moonhaven, for example, suddenly expands to reveal more buildings and objects, etc.

But no. The entire world of BG3 is very detailed down to the foot/meter and they even make it so every jar and vase can be searched even if they are empty. EVERY SINGLE ONE.

Again, it's like they can't make up their minds. Is it abstract or literal? One minute it's abstract and the next it's literal with absolutely nothing to transition from one to another. It's weird.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Short Rest Poll - 09/06/22 12:07 PM
Originally Posted by Ruswarr
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Characters in the game prompt you often to "get some rest. It's been a long day."
I don't know how to make the whole resting system more meaningful but in case it stays fully/mostly as it is now - something like that would be a great notification about a party member wanting to have a word with PC at the camp.

That's not a great notification because the result is what you have currently. I've literally LR'd and run through Moonhaven - not even a single fight - and I had a character tell me they're tired and it's been a long day. Not even 5 minutes of adventure, and not a single fight, and the game is telling me to End Day already.

That is why a long time ago I suggested that SR should also allow for dialogues at camp. An SR is supposed to be an hour or more of resting, repairing armor, etc. So, why not transition to camp for SR as well and allow dialogues? Or, better yet, just allow dialogues while you're traveling on the road together? Why do they have to take place at camp?
Posted By: Stabbey Re: Short Rest Poll - 09/06/22 12:20 PM
Originally Posted by mrfuji3
Both long and short rest mechanics (including cutscenes & dialogue) in BG3 need to be changed to fix the BG3 resting system; making changes to only one will likely do little. if anything, to help.

- Increase the # of short rests per long rest. There's no reason it should be limited to 2, especially because:
- Hit Dice are a natural limit to # of short rests. Since you only get back half with a LR, this naturally encourages players to LR when they have ~1/4 their hit die left
- Untie cutscenes from LRs, at least the ones that don't require night-time. This includes allowing dialogue while traveling in the world and/or during SRs, not just at base camp.
- Change the ability to freely LR anywhere, anytime, an ~unlimited # of times. This can be done using one or all of the following: change the food system, restrict ability to LR in certain locations, and/or have the game react to the # of times you LR (ideally, NOT by causing sudden and permanent loss of content. Changes to content and/or non-permanent effects--e.g., companion disapproval--are reasonable effects imo)
- Make the cutscene where the party initially finds out that the ceremorphosis ISN'T progressing as normal unavoidable and happen before the grove. This directly tells the player that the tadpole situation isn't actually as urgent as previously communicated.

After all or most of that is done, then limits on # of SRs needed before a LR is available or SR limits themselves can be discussed. But honestly, at that point those changes won't really be needed.


I also would probably miss a lot of content if long rests have a lot of the story, because I try and do well in fights and conserve resources. It's strange because the better you are at the game, the less you'll need to long rest, and the more content you miss, and that's backwards.

I can agree with the sentiment that short rests should be tied to hit dice - although you should not be forced to spend them if you don't need to - and/or no more than 3 permitted per long rest. It generally feels like it's a reasonable idea to limit long rests to after 3 short rests. If that framework was put into place, it would force Larian to take a look at what story beats should go into long rests, and whether they can put some of those long-rest only scenes elsewhere, such as in areas between combat encounters.


Originally Posted by GM4Him
That's not a great notification because the result is what you have currently. I've literally LR'd and run through Moonhaven - not even a single fight - and I had a character tell me they're tired and it's been a long day. Not even 5 minutes of adventure, and not a single fight, and the game is telling me to End Day already.

That is why a long time ago I suggested that SR should also allow for dialogues at camp. An SR is supposed to be an hour or more of resting, repairing armor, etc. So, why not transition to camp for SR as well and allow dialogues? Or, better yet, just allow dialogues while you're traveling on the road together? Why do they have to take place at camp?

Tying some of the long rest scenes into short rests is kinda interesting as well.
Posted By: Ruswarr Re: Short Rest Poll - 09/06/22 12:31 PM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
That's not a great notification because the result is what you have currently. I've literally LR'd and run through Moonhaven - not even a single fight - and I had a character tell me they're tired and it's been a long day. Not even 5 minutes of adventure, and not a single fight, and the game is telling me to End Day already.

That is why a long time ago I suggested that SR should also allow for dialogues at camp. An SR is supposed to be an hour or more of resting, repairing armor, etc. So, why not transition to camp for SR as well and allow dialogues? Or, better yet, just allow dialogues while you're traveling on the road together? Why do they have to take place at camp?
Yeah, that's reasonable to ask. The question stands on how deeply integrated everything is and how much work it will take. I'm just super unsure on how even to approach suggesting anything about the whole resting system currently because I feel like any step might make rest feel basically not impactful at all either introduce too strict of a limitation. Smaller, more isolated/location-based maps would probably help (although I don't have an issue with current maps per se) but it cleary won't happen.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Short Rest Poll - 09/06/22 12:33 PM
[quote]Both long and short rest mechanics (including cutscenes & dialogue) in BG3 need to be changed to fix the BG3 resting system; making changes to only one will likely do little. if anything, to help.

- Increase the # of short rests per long rest. There's no reason it should be limited to 2, especially because:
- Hit Dice are a natural limit to # of short rests. Since you only get back half with a LR, this naturally encourages players to LR when they have ~1/4 their hit die left[\quote]

This is exactly what I'm suggesting and why it would work best. Hit Dice naturally limit the # of short rests. But, even if you short rest beyond your hit dice, in order to restore things like Action Surge and a Warlock's Spell Slots, that's GOOD. That's what players should try to do. Anything that would promote short rest over long rest is good because the idea is that in D&D, the DM is supposed to encourage short resting over long resting. That's why Warlocks and Fighters have such rechargeable at short rest abilities. If you strip short rest resets from their classes, you severely nerf their classes. Druids are the same with Wild Shape.

See, here's how it is supposed to work:

Party = Fighter, Rogue, Wizard, Warlock

You crash on the beach. You fight intellect devourers. Wizard and Warlock both use their spells; all of them. Fighter uses Action Surge and Second Wind. Short rest. Wizard recovers 1 spell slot using Arcane Recovery. Warlock recovers spell slot. Fighter recovers Action Surge and Second Wind. Everyone uses all their Hit Dice. Party continues. Reaches the crypt and fights Gimblebock and company. Wizard uses last spell slot. Warlock uses spell slot. Fighter uses Action Surge and Second Wind. Short rest. Wizard is out of spells. Fighter and Warlock, however, have their abilities replenished. The party can still continue. Why? Because although everyone is out of Hit Dice, the Fighter and Warlock were still able to replenish their abilities. So the Fighter can still do Action Surge and Second Wind, and the Warlock has spells again. Sure, the Wizard is now out of spells besides Cantrips, but the trade-off is that the Wizard, especially at later levels, will have a LOT more spell slots and a LOT more spells to choose from, while the Warlock - especially at later levels - will have far less spell slots and spells to choose from. But the thing that makes a Warlock not a complete waste as a class is that they can recharge their spell slots via a short rest while the wizard and sorcerer are forced to reset only at Long Rest. Allow Long Rests between every fight, and you give wizards and sorcerers and clerics and such a huge boost in importance as a class while severely hacking Warlocks and Druids and such at the knees.

See, here's how BG3 works:

Same party.

Same scenario except that instead of using a short rest, you can long rest without restraint. So why bother with short rest when everyone can, and is encouraged to, long rest? The result? Full health for everyone and full spell slots. Day 2, the adventure continues. You reach the crypt and fight Gimblebock and company. Wizard has full spell slots just like the Warlock, but gets MORE spell slots because that's how the class is built. So, while the Warlock is stuck with one or two spell slots for many many levels, the wizard's spell slot allowance increases every level. Skip ahead to level 5. Wizard can cast Fireball. Between every fight, he can Long Rest and reset ALL spell slots. Warlock is stuck at only 2 SPELL SOTS even at level 5. Meanwhile, the wizard has - what is it, 10? I can't remember off the top of my head - so the wizard is able to blast enemies with a couple of Fireballs, maybe 4 magic missiles, and so forth, while the poor Warlock only gets 2 spells and that's it.

Why is resting mechanics so vital to this game? THIS is why. They might as well throw the Warlock class in the trash if they don't do something to fix this because it's a completely useless, trash class, if you don't limit long rests and try to focus more on pushing players to short rest. Short rest NEEDS to be the resting that players feel they should go to unless they really feel they cannot continue without a long rest. Short rests should be a valuable mechanic - so much so that players feel they can't play the game without them. It should be their go-to resting mechanic, not their afterthought.
Posted By: robertthebard Re: Short Rest Poll - 09/06/22 01:44 PM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Originally Posted by robertthebard
So, as has been suggested before, if a LR required x number of SRs in between, and you can only SR x, or even as it is now, then SR would "mean something". There's no need to increase the number you can take "per day", as it were, simply improve the LR mechanic by requiring SRs in between. In doing so, however, we're going to need another system for story beats. As I've said countless times, I miss a lot of them because I don't LR between every encounter. I'm lucky if I LR every session. I've used SR exactly once.

If a LR required x # of SR in between, what is to stop you from SRing that many times and then LRing? It limits nothing and is just more annoying. Besides, it doesn't fix the main issues.

1. Dialogue is tied to LR, so LR is encouraged often.
2. Characters in the game prompt you often to "get some rest. It's been a long day."
3. Encounters are not built to promote pushing yourself to continue all the way through a story arc without LRing. Example:. The Hag. I've tried multiple times to start that quest and go all the way through to beating her without a LR. It's impossible for me. After the 4 Masks, I'm pretty much done for the day. So poor Mayrina has to wait 24 hours in a cage dangling over a pit while I go take the rest of the day off. The spider lair is the same. Try getting through the entire spider lair without LRing once. I can't do it. Maybe you can, and yay you, but I can't and I doubt a majority can as well.
4. SR is still pointless because LR has full restore benefits and SR is just a band aid. But it's limited and LR is not. So again, why SR at all when you can LR as much as you want?

I didn't even touch on all the other issues I've mentioned like a thousand times out here.
The answer to your opening question is in the post you quoted to ask it.

Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Originally Posted by robertthebard
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Originally Posted by JandK
I would also add that RagnarokCzD is absolutely right. The distance in the game is clearly not meant to be taken literally. It's a game, and games require a certain level of suspension of disbelief.

Putting forth arguments that take the distance literally seems like a try-hard way to find fault, in my opinion.

When a game litteraly show a bridge between two location, there is only a bridge between two locations in this world.
Not saying its better, but that's why some other games have a worldmap or even loading times between two areas.

Larian's map is unimmersive as hell even if you try hard to find "explanations". They created something in the middle of open world and small maps that has pros (no loading, faster gameplay...), but also cons (story incoherence, lack of immersion, limited exploration,...)
...and how far apart are those areas? I've played plenty of games with a bridge that didn't lead to an area transition, or to a new area. Is it different terrain that's throwing you off or something?

Now, when I was building in NWN and NWN 2, I did use bridges for area transitions sometimes. But sometimes, a bridge is just a way to get over something that may be impassable any other way, like a river, or a chasm. Neither requires that it's an extremely long distance, however.

Oh please tell me the names of "plenty other rpgs" that have very small areas with just a bridge or anything else between them.

You know, like if Pathfinders areas had bridges between them rather than a loading time + a worldmap.
That's how the map is designed in BG3 for the better and/or the worse.

Ofc the bridge itself is not the problem... I though it was obvious.

So we have one overland area, so far. Area transitions aren't required in a single area, so no, it's not "obvious". What it is, though, is seemingly complaining to complain. When we go to the Underdark, we have an area transition. When we go to interior areas that aren't sandboxed into the main map, we have area transitions. Why do we need a transition to a position on the map that isn't a new area?
Posted By: Maximuuus Re: Short Rest Poll - 09/06/22 02:02 PM
You're right, there's no transition area in this "overland area" too !
https://cdn.dlpreport.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/plan-gratuit-disneyland-paris-zoom-scaled.jpg

The names are just different : Beach land, Druid land, Blighted Village land, Risen Road land, Swamp Land, Goblin's Land.
https://dm-gaming.eu/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/map_surface_20-e1611303739109.jpg

Still waiting for names of plenty games that have such a map design. But that's not related to the thread.
Posted By: robertthebard Re: Short Rest Poll - 09/06/22 02:24 PM
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
You're right, there's no transition area in this "overland area" too !
https://cdn.dlpreport.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/plan-gratuit-disneyland-paris-zoom-scaled.jpg

The names are just different : Beach land, Druid land, Blighted Village land, Risen Road land, Swamp Land, Goblin's Land.
https://dm-gaming.eu/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/map_surface_20-e1611303739109.jpg

Still waiting for names of plenty games that have such a map design. But that's not related to the thread.
How many places can you travel to on the actual World Map? Not the area map, the actual world map? What's that you say, we have 0 overland world map travel locations in EA?

I listed two such games in my first post on this, NWN and NWN 2. Dragon Age Inquisition has a really long bridge that you have to repair, that leads to three dragons, with no area transition. So, let me know when you walk across that bridge, and wind up in Waterdeep. Until then, since everything is contained in one area map, there's no need for a transition.
Posted By: JandK Re: Short Rest Poll - 09/06/22 02:42 PM
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
You're right, there's no transition area in this "overland area" too !
https://cdn.dlpreport.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/plan-gratuit-disneyland-paris-zoom-scaled.jpg

The names are just different : Beach land, Druid land, Blighted Village land, Risen Road land, Swamp Land, Goblin's Land.
https://dm-gaming.eu/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/map_surface_20-e1611303739109.jpg

Still waiting for names of plenty games that have such a map design. But that's not related to the thread.

What exactly is the complaint?

That you don't have to walk your character for five hours to reach Moonhaven? That you don't have to sit through loading screens?
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Short Rest Poll - 09/06/22 03:13 PM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
So why SR at all?
Several reasons ... its faster, often its all you need, it dont require any resources (i know its hard to imagine but if you are not hoarding everything you see, you can actualy run out of them laugh ), it dont bother you with any cutscenes you dont really care about (and im not talking about talking with companions, you can easily skip that ... but turning night, raphael visit, astarion midnight feast, pissed of elf coming for revenge ... those events are unavoidable), immersion (you know the word people use so often around here when it suits them).
And many more. :P laugh

Originally Posted by Maximuuus
When a game litteraly show a bridge between two location, there is only a bridge between two locations in this world.
May be ...

But how long is that bridge?
How long is that mudy road between the bridge and city gate?
How long is that mudy road between druid grove and the bridge?
etc. you get the idea wink
Posted By: Maximuuus Re: Short Rest Poll - 09/06/22 03:25 PM
Originally Posted by JandK
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
You're right, there's no transition area in this "overland area" too !
https://cdn.dlpreport.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/plan-gratuit-disneyland-paris-zoom-scaled.jpg

The names are just different : Beach land, Druid land, Blighted Village land, Risen Road land, Swamp Land, Goblin's Land.
https://dm-gaming.eu/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/map_surface_20-e1611303739109.jpg

Still waiting for names of plenty games that have such a map design. But that's not related to the thread.

What exactly is the complaint?

That you don't have to walk your character for five hours to reach Moonhaven? That you don't have to sit through loading screens?

That the area look like a disneyworld area rather than a believable forgotten realms area.
This because there's no "suspension of disbelief" (if I understand correctly what it mean) when the games shows you the whole map like an open world game.
Posted By: Stabbey Re: Short Rest Poll - 09/06/22 03:42 PM
Solasta's resting system has been brought up, and I will say that while it does some things better, like a more elaborate short rest system, it's not perfect. It does limit long rests to specific map locations and require rations, and there is a random encounter system, but there are some caveats.

Rations are mostly impactful for long-distance traveling - and only if you don't have the Goodberry spell. Once at the locations, rations tend to be fairly generous to find lying around. Random encounters only happen during travel, and only one a night, so for random encounters, you can just use all your spell resources because you'll have a long rest before you continue.

All encounters in-dungeon are pre-placed and one-offs. Long rest points are pretty generously placed, and usually you can just walk or fast-travel back to a previous point if you haven't found another one. I've never had a random encounter happen in a dungeon. In the main campaign, only the final dungeon really strains your resources because you get the long rest before entering the dungeon, and there isn't any long resting inside at all. There are four smaller encounters before the two-stage final boss encounter. That's the only time in the main campaign when there's serious resource management.

So even in Solasta, which has a good system, it's still pretty generous. I think the big difference between the two games might be in the difficulty of encounters. BG 3 might have a higher tuned difficulty which encourages more long resting. Smaller encounters which need less resources to consume would organically lead to more players using fewer long rests.
Posted By: Maximuuus Re: Short Rest Poll - 09/06/22 06:45 PM
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
When a game litteraly show a bridge between two location, there is only a bridge between two locations in this world.
May be ...

But how long is that bridge?

More or less 40 meters, according to the game.


[Linked Image from zupimages.net]
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Short Rest Poll - 09/06/22 07:07 PM
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
according to the game.
Wich - is - not - litt-e-ral.

What is so hard about it? O_o
Posted By: Maximuuus Re: Short Rest Poll - 09/06/22 08:06 PM
Written and respectfull to all other measures (characters, item and building size, movement,...)... But not litteral. Amazing.

The non sense is hard to understand. Whatever, thats just in your head crazy
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Short Rest Poll - 09/06/22 08:52 PM
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
building size
Size maybe ...
Count? Hardly ... unless you really believe that Blighted willage was school, blacksmith, apothecary, windmill, barn ... and litteraly nothing else. laugh

Originally Posted by Maximuuus
movement
Im glad you mentioned this. laugh

[img]https://static0.srcdn.com/wordpress...fit=crop&w=960&h=500&dpr=1.5[/img]

Step 1) Follow the road, and cut it to 10 pieces (one of Tiefling litteraly tells you its 10 day long way to Baldur's Gate) ...
Step 2) Run the whole way 1 of those pieces ...
Step 3) Realize you just walked one day. laugh

Rest should come naturaly. wink
Posted By: Maximuuus Re: Short Rest Poll - 09/06/22 09:38 PM
The Blighted village doesn't look like a village at all. So is "the forest" and so is the "beach".
Looks like according to you what's said is true and what's designed or written is not. The map design doesn't make sense, I guess we agree wink
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Short Rest Poll - 09/06/22 10:02 PM
I can live with that laugh
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Short Rest Poll - 09/06/22 10:02 PM
Let's just say that Ragnarok is right. It is all abstract - the environment. If that's true, then the following makes no sense:

The Dank Crypt's entrance is on the beach. You crash on the beach. The nautiloid is north of your position. It's tentacles are still around you and over the beach where you crashed. So, you KNOW the nautiloid crashed on the edge of the beach.
You travel around the bend to the pier with the dead fishermen. There's the Dank Crypt's entrance on the beach. Intellect devourers are all around, having come from the nautiloid that has crashed right there next to the dank crypt. If it was all abstract, it would take hours to get from the beach where you start to the dank crypt entrance and then from there to the nautiloid and then from the nautiloid to the upper crypt area with Gimblebock and company. The only way the entire collection of scenarios makes sense is if it is all one map with everything literally near one another.

Think about it. Shadowheart, if you don't have her with you by then, is pounding at the door and mentions finding another way in at the top of the cliffs. So, the ONLY path to get to the top of those cliffs is a great distance from the beach through the nautiloid, up another long path, back through the nautiloid, along another path where you meet Gale and then another good distance? Should we assume it takes hours to take this very interesting path? You mean to tell me there's no other, shorter way around the nautiloid? No. It only makes sense that the crashed nautiloid is blocking your path around, and the only way to get out of the area is through it two times - unless you cut straight through it and skip Astarion's area.

But let's then say that the entire first area, including the Beach, Nautiloid, Astarion's Locale, the Path Where You Meet Gale, and the Dank Crypt are all one location that is literal. Then, after that, it becomes abstract between that basic area and the Wilderness/Grove where you meet Lae'zel and then get to Silvanus' Grove. If that's the case, first of all, why NOT then make it a single map and have a transition point to the next area? I mean, why make it literal and then have some sort of weird abstract-ness happen and then have it literal again without a transition to tell players that it is, in fact, transitioning from literal to abstract? That's very immersion-breaking and weird. But let's just say it's because you're avoiding transition times to speed up gameplay. Fine. Weird, but fine. Moving on.

Second, doing this actually strips players of freedom of choice. What if I don't WANT to continue along those paths? Now that I'm clear of the nautiloid and dank crypt area, if there is a good distance between this location and the Wilderness/Grove, shouldn't I be able to skip past it and avoid it? There's hours worth of terrain between the two locations. Right? So if there are hours of distance between them, I should be able to choose to bypass the grove altogether. But I can't. I have to go right past the grove. But, you know, one could argue that there literally aren't any other paths through the terrain. Again, it's possible. Weird, but possible.

Moving along. In the grove, it has been argued that there is a good deal of distance between the harpies and the grove. Here, again, we have a strange circumstance. First, there is a smooth transition from the grove to the beach, and you can even follow it along so that you are wrapped around the south side to look upon the Dank Crypt, the cliff where Nadira is with her telescope, and Orn the bear down by the shore... all as one smooth setting. But other things don't make sense if it is miles away. Is there no path from there to other areas at all? Is the only path, even when you pass for miles of distance, out through the eastern gate of the grove and down that single path? And boy that's an awfully far distance for the tiefling boy to wander from the safety of the grove even though there are lots of goblins lurking about looking to kill them - and gnolls who months before slaughtered a lot of them. Kinda weird that he'd wander to the beach so far away with so many dangers lurking around. He might go a short distance if he was poking his nose outside the grove a bit and heard some enchanting music, but miles? Not likely. Thirdly, the harpies are singing a tune that mirrors Alfira's. Now that's strange. Why would they sing a tune that is close to hers if they didn't hear her singing the tune? How could they hear her sing the tune if they were miles away? Nope. All the evidence points to it all being a literal distance.

Moving along. Other things that don't make sense from an abstract area perspective. In the bog, there is a camp. A child and parent were killed there by what appears to be ettercaps. From where did they come? Moonhaven's Whispering Depths, most likely. This is an assumption. Yes. But where else would they have come? I suppose anywhere, but the inference is Moonhaven since you meet ettercaps in the Whispering Depths. Now, why would ettercaps travel so far from their nest for food when there are goblins and other creatures right in Moonhaven for them to feast upon - especially if you assume that the supposed "forest" that Moonhaven is surrounded by has actual animals in it - assuming an abstract environment that actually WOULD and SHOULD have animals? It makes more sense that the ettercaps might have been patrolling about the general area near their nest for food late at night when the goblins and such went back to their camp, but it doesn't make sense for them to travel miles away into the bog. It is therefore implied that the bog and Moonhaven are close to one another. I'm sorry, but it makes a lot more sense that the bog is close to Moonhaven and the nautiloid, for it is presumed that the parent and child crashed their boat in the bog because of the crashing nautiloid. This is somewhat of an assumption, but I don't think it's as much of a stretch as saying that the bog is miles away from Moonhaven and miles away from the nautiloid. It makes much more sense that it is close to both locations because why would the father/child crash their boat there unless they were in a panic?

But, even if all of that doesn't convince people - which it probably won't because some are dead set on everything being totally abstract - what about the fact that I have engaged the Gith Patrol in combat and run to Waukeen's Rest and actually received the aid of the Flaming Fist to help me fight them and kill them? Are you implying that while in combat my character ran miles upon miles along a single road with Gith hot on my trail? And while they're fighting the Gith, I could then run miles upon miles back to where my companions fell, near the bridge, and heal them back to full all during the same combat? And then return in time to help the Flaming Fist finish the Gith? So - just to be clear - initiated the Gith fight at the bridge, three companions fell, with Astarion I ran to Waukeen's Rest and led the Gith into the Flaming Fist who then helped fight the Gith, then while the Gith were distracted, Astarion ran back to the bridge, used potions, and revived my fallen companions, and finally we ran back to Waukeen's Rest and finished off the Gith - and somehow that actually took hours of time? And that makes sense somehow?

This is why we have a problem with the whole "The Map is Abstract" mindset. It ISN'T.

And yet... it is. And that's the problem. How could it NOT be abstract? After all, the camps - both main and mini - aren't anywhere? You can only Fast Travel to them. Also, the goblins are either stupid or blind or plain dumb if they can't find the grove so close to their main base when it is so obviously not hidden enough. Stand on the Harper's Lookout Cache location, and you'll see the grove plain as day. So how could it NOT be abstract? It MUST be miles away. Moonhaven is too small. The bog is too small. The forest is too small. The distance from the grove to the goblin camp is like 5 minutes of jogging at best, but it took Aradin and his companions over a month to go there and return with goblins on their heels. But Baldur's Gate is only ten days from the grove? How does that make sense from either a literal or abstract sense?

And how can you drop down from the Whispering Depths into the Underdark where you land near the Selunite Outpost, but then the Zhentarim stash in the Underdark, which leads up to the Zhentarim Hideout under Waukeen's Rest, is just up the path? But not far from the heart of the Whispering Depths is a secret way back into the blacksmith's forge area in Moonhaven? The distances don't add up?

But, all this aside, even IF it is all abstract and it takes me 8 hours to travel from the grove to Moonhaven, or whatever, I STILL shouldn't have a scenario where I am standing at the entrance to Moonhaven after fighting the goblins, I long rest, I reappear at Moonhaven, I run through Moonhaven to Risen Road, and just as I'm reaching Risen Road, I have a companion say, "Gosh. I'm tired. It's been a long day. Let's get some rest." Even IF I traveled for 8 hours from Moonhaven to my camp, slept the rest of the day away, woke up first thing in the morning, and traveled 8 more hours to return to Moonhaven - and even IF it took me an hour to get through the whole of Moonhaven to Risen Road - why on God's Green Earth would my companions then say they're tired and we should call it a day? We haven't done a God-blessed thing? What? You want to go all the way back to camp and do it all over again? We didn't explore ANYTHING.

But that's what happened to me - and it's happened on more than one occasion. I don't care what way you spin it. The game encourages Long Rests - OFTEN!

And what I'm saying is, players should be encouraged to Short Rest, and frankly, the fact that it's "more convenient" to short rest is not really that much of an incentive. If I'm only short resting because it's slightly more convenient than a long rest, then it's pointless. It's a dumb mechanic. This is especially true if upcoming battles are tough - like the spider lair - and you know you need a full rest to take the monster on. Oh yeah. You're going to take a few extra seconds to End Day and return to fight the monster rather than the quick Short Rest.

And THAT is one of my other points. The encounters are designed so that you are meant to Long Rest before them. But that's not how RPGs work. You aren't supposed to know what's coming, and if you don't know what's coming, you need to still be able to beat it without having to reload. The whole point of a ROLEPLAYING game is that you are taking on the role of the character. You are meant to be able to survive EVERY encounter even if you have absolutely no idea what's coming. If you make the fights so hard that you are expected to trigger them, die, reload, prepare better a second time, and then try again until you win, you're playing Undertale, not an RPG.
Posted By: Maximuuus Re: Short Rest Poll - 09/06/22 10:49 PM
There's absolutely 0% chance that Ragna is right about distances GM wink
Larian has chosen this way of designing the map to offer the best gaming experience according to them but no one has probably ever thought "distances are not litteral"

The most credible explanation is undoubtedly that they didn't want to create a world as large as an open world but that they wanted to offer a different experience from other cRPGs at the same time. The map is really small and that's why it's not really called an "open world" game.

The act 1 surface map is something like 500m² (let's say 1km² if you include the underdark) while the full map of TW3 are something like 130 km² (skyrim = 40km², RDR2 = 72km², GTA5 = 125km²). BG3's full map may probably reach 10km² at best. The map may look bigger and you play HOURS on a "small" map because the content is very condensed.

The fact that the map design is not a "problem" for everyone does not mean that this statement is false and that we have to go into delusions to explain things.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Short Rest Poll - 10/06/22 12:13 AM
Oh, I know. But he/she keeps using it as an excuse for lots of things - like the camp not being on the map, and the reason why goblins haven't found the grove, and why my characters only adventure for 5 minutes and need to take an entire 24 hours to rest when they have a tadpole eating their brain - and yet he/she and others still feel that this somehow makes sense.

Say what you want about Pathfinder Kingmaker's timed events. At least it makes sense and provides a legit immersive world. You really feel like you're adventuring and resting as little as possible. Same with Solasta. I don't feel like I'm being prompted to End Day in either of those games. I'm m encouraged to push on - and in neither game do I have a tadpole in my head.
Posted By: Rhobar121 Re: Short Rest Poll - 10/06/22 01:24 AM
Find me a game where you were able to survive if you approached a boss fight without being prepared for it.
I don't understand this logic. In the full game you will have a choice of difficulty levels.
In the lower levels you will not need to be fully prepared. If you don't want to die, you can always play "story mode".
Posted By: Rhobar121 Re: Short Rest Poll - 10/06/22 01:34 AM
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
There's absolutely 0% chance that Ragna is right about distances GM wink
Larian has chosen this way of designing the map to offer the best gaming experience according to them but no one has probably ever thought "distances are not litteral"

The most credible explanation is undoubtedly that they didn't want to create a world as large as an open world but that they wanted to offer a different experience from other cRPGs at the same time. The map is really small and that's why it's not really called an "open world" game.

The act 1 surface map is something like 500m² (let's say 1km² if you include the underdark) while the full map of TW3 are something like 130 km² (skyrim = 40km², RDR2 = 72km², GTA5 = 125km²). BG3's full map may probably reach 10km² at best. The map may look bigger and you play HOURS on a "small" map because the content is very condensed.

The fact that the map design is not a "problem" for everyone does not mean that this statement is false and that we have to go into delusions to explain things.


Of course, they could design a huge blank map only it would be boring.
The map was simply compressed by cutting out unnecessary distances between them.
So you have main areas like swamp, grove, village connected by smaller areas.
Of course, they could cut the map to pieces only that would do more harm to the game than the current state.
Individual areas would be quite small, not to mention the need for continuous loading.
This would be a pretty big problem with multiplayer.
Currently, players can easily do various things while on the other side of the map from each other.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Short Rest Poll - 10/06/22 02:33 AM
Originally Posted by Rhobar121
Find me a game where you were able to survive if you approached a boss fight without being prepared for it.
I don't understand this logic. In the full game you will have a choice of difficulty levels.
In the lower levels you will not need to be fully prepared. If you don't want to die, you can always play "story mode".

Solasta.

Haven't died once yet, and I'm finding it still very challenging, so it's not because they made the game too easy. AND, I might add, I'm playing it on Authentic 5e difficulty mode.

Because they build encounters right, making it so players aren't facing deadly fights every single battle.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Short Rest Poll - 10/06/22 02:42 AM
Originally Posted by Rhobar121
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
There's absolutely 0% chance that Ragna is right about distances GM wink
Larian has chosen this way of designing the map to offer the best gaming experience according to them but no one has probably ever thought "distances are not litteral"

The most credible explanation is undoubtedly that they didn't want to create a world as large as an open world but that they wanted to offer a different experience from other cRPGs at the same time. The map is really small and that's why it's not really called an "open world" game.

The act 1 surface map is something like 500m² (let's say 1km² if you include the underdark) while the full map of TW3 are something like 130 km² (skyrim = 40km², RDR2 = 72km², GTA5 = 125km²). BG3's full map may probably reach 10km² at best. The map may look bigger and you play HOURS on a "small" map because the content is very condensed.

The fact that the map design is not a "problem" for everyone does not mean that this statement is false and that we have to go into delusions to explain things.


Of course, they could design a huge blank map only it would be boring.
The map was simply compressed by cutting out unnecessary distances between them.
So you have main areas like swamp, grove, village connected by smaller areas.
Of course, they could cut the map to pieces only that would do more harm to the game than the current state.
Individual areas would be quite small, not to mention the need for continuous loading.
This would be a pretty big problem with multiplayer.
Currently, players can easily do various things while on the other side of the map from each other.

OR... Yeah. They could have smaller areas with gateways to the next.

Area 1: Beach/Nautiloid/ Dank Crypt. When you head north on any of the paths, or move beyond the area where you meet Lae'zel, gateway to the grove. Change the background so as you approach the gates you see a scrolling mountain/forest landscape. You click on the gate. Black screen with words, "2 hours later" appears.

Area 2: Grove and everything up to the river. Area gates at the bridge and river crossing . Again, background as you approach the gates shows scrolling mountainous/ forest landscape.

Area 3: Moonhaven and Forest. You start on a path in the woods. Trees all around. There's another bride in front of you spanning another tributary of the river. You enter the Moonhaven area.

THIS adds immersion and clearly says to players, "You are going a considerable distance.

But BG3 makes it clear that it is literal, because they make it a point that there are few ways out of that area. VERY few.

But, back on topic, regardless, it wouldn't explain why characters are so tired after hiking only a few hours and not actually doing anything. Thus, promoting long rest.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Short Rest Poll - 10/06/22 03:06 AM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Originally Posted by Rhobar121
Find me a game where you were able to survive if you approached a boss fight without being prepared for it.
I don't understand this logic. In the full game you will have a choice of difficulty levels.
In the lower levels you will not need to be fully prepared. If you don't want to die, you can always play "story mode".

Solasta.

Haven't died once yet, and I'm finding it still very challenging, so it's not because they made the game too easy. AND, I might add, I'm playing it on Authentic 5e difficulty mode.

Because they build encounters right, making it so players aren't facing deadly fights every single battle.

Wait. Correction: I died a few times. Lava Forest. Spiders. But it was because I had troubles targeting them with spells like Lightning Bolt. Oh, and the Defiler at the Dark Tower. I forgot. The Defiler got me. Hardest fight for me in the game.
Posted By: Maximuuus Re: Short Rest Poll - 10/06/22 06:56 AM
Originally Posted by Rhobar121
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
There's absolutely 0% chance that Ragna is right about distances GM wink
Larian has chosen this way of designing the map to offer the best gaming experience according to them but no one has probably ever thought "distances are not litteral"

The most credible explanation is undoubtedly that they didn't want to create a world as large as an open world but that they wanted to offer a different experience from other cRPGs at the same time. The map is really small and that's why it's not really called an "open world" game.

The act 1 surface map is something like 500m² (let's say 1km² if you include the underdark) while the full map of TW3 are something like 130 km² (skyrim = 40km², RDR2 = 72km², GTA5 = 125km²). BG3's full map may probably reach 10km² at best. The map may look bigger and you play HOURS on a "small" map because the content is very condensed.

The fact that the map design is not a "problem" for everyone does not mean that this statement is false and that we have to go into delusions to explain things.


Of course, they could design a huge blank map only it would be boring.
The map was simply compressed by cutting out unnecessary distances between them.
So you have main areas like swamp, grove, village connected by smaller areas.
Of course, they could cut the map to pieces only that would do more harm to the game than the current state.
Individual areas would be quite small, not to mention the need for continuous loading.
This would be a pretty big problem with multiplayer.
Currently, players can easily do various things while on the other side of the map from each other.

I think something "better" in the middle would have been possible between fully coherent world (open world) and "feeling" of a coherent world (small areas connected by something, usually a worldmap).

If the Forest was bigger, eventually with the grove hidden inside it on the opposite side of the map so everyone can understand that the goblins struggle to find it.
If the Blighted village had a few fields for the mill and a few more buildings. The swamp is also really really small.
Bigger doesn't necessarily mean 5 times bigger, empty and/or full of filler content imo.

But whatever they made a choice and I understand why you like it. The map design is just too much on the opposite of what I really like in role playing games.
Posted By: Flooter Re: Short Rest Poll - 10/06/22 11:54 AM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
This is why we have a problem with the whole "The Map is Abstract" mindset. It ISN'T.

And yet... it is. And that's the problem.
This reminds me of how certain strategy or management games handle time. They often have two time-scales running in parallel: one for the calendar date which moves quickly, one for your units’ life cycle which moves slowly.

In Tropico 4, which is a city builder, you can zoom out and watch the dance of freighters docking every three months, or zoom in and follow the slow paced life of any individual citizen. Both of these points of view function as long as you’re not connecting them, because if you do, that’s when you realize your citizens eat only twice a year.

It feels like BG3 maps use the same basic concept of parallel scales for distances between “activity hubs” and “connective tissue”. The issue is that it’s hard to avoid noticing the places where those scales mesh. GM’s examples illustrate this well.

Worth noting that the map feels better on first playthrough than subsequent ones. There’s a psychological trick at play here: any journey feels longer if you’re discovering the path. I wonder if Larian are counting on this effect to hide the sliding distance scale.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Short Rest Poll - 10/06/22 12:38 PM
Regardless, my characters should not push taking a test after only traveling from camp and maybe 5 minutes of adventure, and that was why the map was even brought up. Ragnarok was trying to argue that the map is abstract and that although you as a player may only traverse the map for about 5 minutes, your characters are spending hours upon hours traveling. So, it isn't 5 minutes of adventure and 24 hours of resting. It's meant to be hours of walking and exploring. Then you rest for about eight hours and continue. That is what Ragnarok is trying to suggest, and that is what I'm trying to say is all in his/her head. There is NO way the map is designed to indicate that you are traveling from hours between any 2 points on the map unless there is a clear transition - such as when you actually go into the Underdark. With the transition cutscenes either when you Featherfall or descend via ladder, it is implied that you are traveling for some time.

Though, I would like to point out that Featherfall's duration is only 1 minute and you fall at a rate of 10 feet per second. So, this implies that jumping from the Whispering Depths down into the Underdark and landing near the Selunite Outpost is only 600 feet at most. That is HARDLY hours of travel down into the Underdark.

So even THAT implies that you are literally moving foot for foot/ meter for meter.

I'm sorry, but there is nothing that indicates that the map is abstract at all except for the fact that it makes no sense - as mentioned earlier - that the grove is not discovered, that Aradin and company can jog 5 minutes to the goblin camp, but they were gone for over a month, that Moonhaven is too small, the bog and forest are too small, the harpies are too close to the grove, etc. etc. etc.

In short, the map makes no sense.

But again, this is not a post about the map and its inconsistencies. This is about resting, and once again I will say that regardless of whether the map is abstract or literal, it makes no sense to spend a few hours just walking and exploring and then having your characters say, "That's it. I need to rest." Again, the point is that the game promotes long rest a LOT, but short rest is limited to only 2 per day and is really nothing more than a quick kinda sorta heal/restore button that is only there for convenience and has no real other benefit in the game because long rest has no real limitations.
Posted By: robertthebard Re: Short Rest Poll - 10/06/22 01:43 PM
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
There's absolutely 0% chance that Ragna is right about distances GM wink
Larian has chosen this way of designing the map to offer the best gaming experience according to them but no one has probably ever thought "distances are not litteral"

The most credible explanation is undoubtedly that they didn't want to create a world as large as an open world but that they wanted to offer a different experience from other cRPGs at the same time. The map is really small and that's why it's not really called an "open world" game.

The act 1 surface map is something like 500m² (let's say 1km² if you include the underdark) while the full map of TW3 are something like 130 km² (skyrim = 40km², RDR2 = 72km², GTA5 = 125km²). BG3's full map may probably reach 10km² at best. The map may look bigger and you play HOURS on a "small" map because the content is very condensed.

The fact that the map design is not a "problem" for everyone does not mean that this statement is false and that we have to go into delusions to explain things.

Ah, now I see what the problem is. This isn't an open world game, because you literally won't be able to walk from this map to Baldur's Gate. It will require area transitions, because this isn't the whole world, but one area within the world. Unlike TES or Fallout games, from 3, anyway, where you literally can traverse the whole map, with dungeons and homes requiring an area transition, here, just as in Baldur's Gate 1 and 2, Dragon Age, Mass Effect, etc., you have to travel to different zones via an area transition. Any argument based on "open world game" will fall flat, because it doesn't apply here.

As to scale, when I look at a map of the US, I can actually see all 50 states. The "distance" between Chicago and Kansas City is most definitely not to scale, because it's literally easily measured in inches, while it's actually hundreds of miles. If maps were "to scale", they would be impossible to use, that's why they include an "X = y miles" scale. So the "delusion" here is that we need use an open world game as a comparison, when that's not the case. What leads me to believe that? Look at the games you listed as a comparison. A more accurate comparison would have been Dragon Age et al, Baldur's Gate et al, Icewind Dale et al, or NWN et al. You know, games that have lots of areas that require area transitions to get to, instead of open world games.
Posted By: Maximuuus Re: Short Rest Poll - 10/06/22 02:36 PM
Originally Posted by robertthebard
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
There's absolutely 0% chance that Ragna is right about distances GM wink
Larian has chosen this way of designing the map to offer the best gaming experience according to them but no one has probably ever thought "distances are not litteral"

The most credible explanation is undoubtedly that they didn't want to create a world as large as an open world but that they wanted to offer a different experience from other cRPGs at the same time. The map is really small and that's why it's not really called an "open world" game.

The act 1 surface map is something like 500m² (let's say 1km² if you include the underdark) while the full map of TW3 are something like 130 km² (skyrim = 40km², RDR2 = 72km², GTA5 = 125km²). BG3's full map may probably reach 10km² at best. The map may look bigger and you play HOURS on a "small" map because the content is very condensed.

The fact that the map design is not a "problem" for everyone does not mean that this statement is false and that we have to go into delusions to explain things.

Ah, now I see what the problem is. This isn't an open world game, because you literally won't be able to walk from this map to Baldur's Gate. It will require area transitions, because this isn't the whole world, but one area within the world. Unlike TES or Fallout games, from 3, anyway, where you literally can traverse the whole map, with dungeons and homes requiring an area transition, here, just as in Baldur's Gate 1 and 2, Dragon Age, Mass Effect, etc., you have to travel to different zones via an area transition. Any argument based on "open world game" will fall flat, because it doesn't apply here.

As to scale, when I look at a map of the US, I can actually see all 50 states. The "distance" between Chicago and Kansas City is most definitely not to scale, because it's literally easily measured in inches, while it's actually hundreds of miles. If maps were "to scale", they would be impossible to use, that's why they include an "X = y miles" scale. So the "delusion" here is that we need use an open world game as a comparison, when that's not the case. What leads me to believe that? Look at the games you listed as a comparison. A more accurate comparison would have been Dragon Age et al, Baldur's Gate et al, Icewind Dale et al, or NWN et al. You know, games that have lots of areas that require area transitions to get to, instead of open world games.

We could nitpick about what is really an open world game and what is not, but BG3 is definitely not AT ALL like BG1 and 2, Dragon age Origin or Mass Effect either.
BG3 will have something like 8 "medium" regions while BG1 has something like 30 "small" area. The worldmap is useless in BG3 while it's a part of the world design in the other games. When you're in a village, you're in a village. When you're in a forest, you"re in a forest. Between the forest and the village there's something that the game doesn't show you (worldmap). That's not how it works in BG3 and the forest between the villages doesnt even look like what most of us usually call "forest".

Of course BG3 is not a real open world game but you're absolutely wrong if you consider that the design is the same as the games you named. It's a middle ground that lead to this unique (and strange theme park) style.
Posted By: mrfuji3 Re: Short Rest Poll - 10/06/22 03:09 PM
Originally Posted by robertthebard
As to scale, when I look at a map of the US, I can actually see all 50 states. The "distance" between Chicago and Kansas City is most definitely not to scale, because it's literally easily measured in inches, while it's actually hundreds of miles. If maps were "to scale", they would be impossible to use, that's why they include an "X = y miles" scale. So the "delusion" here is that we need use an open world game as a comparison, when that's not the case. What leads me to believe that? Look at the games you listed as a comparison. A more accurate comparison would have been Dragon Age et al, Baldur's Gate et al, Icewind Dale et al, or NWN et al. You know, games that have lots of areas that require area transitions to get to, instead of open world games.
Real maps are fine because everything is equally proportionally to scale. Every single distance measured on the map (in inches) can be multiplied by the same conversion factor to get the real-world distance.

The issue with the BG3 map is that either things are differently scaled, OR everything is too close together. The grove, the nautiloid, the Blighted Village, most houses, all-distances-while-in-combat-mode: all of these are clearly at the same scale. Characters moving X inches on your screen always are traveling Y "game-world" feet. However, is this true for the more transitory areas? When characters walk from the Grove to the Blighted Village, how far are they moving? Actually a few hundred feet, or dozens of miles? The former means the goblins are incredibly dumb for not finding the Grove. And the former means that the map is inconsistent, which is additionally problematic because the map is inconsistent to an *unknown* degree, meaning the player has to assert their own headcannon for which areas aren't to scale, and to what degree.

Your last few sentences are exactly what some of us want. Consistently scaled areas, with transitions between different areas to reflect larger distances travelled.
Posted By: Archaven Re: Short Rest Poll - 10/06/22 04:03 PM
i think the issue most likely it was designed so that players don't waste much time on moving from point A to point B as the whole party is on foot. if they are designing the game having more spaces and traveling perhaps every characters may need a mount. not sure if dnd5e has mounts but that will be interesting though and also may required lots of efforts in getting it right too.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Short Rest Poll - 10/06/22 04:31 PM
Originally Posted by Archaven
i think the issue most likely it was designed so that players don't waste much time on moving from point A to point B as the whole party is on foot. if they are designing the game having more spaces and traveling perhaps every characters may need a mount. not sure if dnd5e has mounts but that will be interesting though and also may required lots of efforts in getting it right too.

Nah. Simpler approach. There is virtually one way out of the Beach/Dank Crypt area. Provide a transition Area Exit portal. You pass through it. Loading screen. Grove area loads. Game has text appear as new area is loaded. "2 hours have passed.". You are now brought into the grove entrance area.

This does multiple things.

1. Gives players a real idea of how much time/distance has been traveled. It is much further between major story zones than a few seconds journey.
2. Map locations don't need to be so big, thus making each area quicker to load. You can then add additional effects like weather without creating severe lag for lower end computers because you don't have such a big environment that the effects are effecting.
3. If you want to continue to have nebulous camps that don't actually have locations on any map, this is now explained by "your camp is somewhere between the two map locations.
4. As Ragnarok keeps saying, this then does actually add content to a single adventuring day as opposed to "I went 30 seconds through a village and my party is now tired? Seriously?". If I know my characters woke up and traveled a few hours between the grove and Moonhaven, that means they've certainly done more that day than traveled a few hundred feet.
5. They can then expand each environment to make it appear bigger. The forest around Moonhaven can appear to have more forest all around. You just can't explore all of it. You have select area exits that seem to lead deeper into the forest. Things like that so each region actually seems like a real region.

Overall, it makes the game more immersive to have smaller maps within larger environments.
Posted By: robertthebard Re: Short Rest Poll - 10/06/22 05:09 PM
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Originally Posted by robertthebard
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
There's absolutely 0% chance that Ragna is right about distances GM wink
Larian has chosen this way of designing the map to offer the best gaming experience according to them but no one has probably ever thought "distances are not litteral"

The most credible explanation is undoubtedly that they didn't want to create a world as large as an open world but that they wanted to offer a different experience from other cRPGs at the same time. The map is really small and that's why it's not really called an "open world" game.

The act 1 surface map is something like 500m² (let's say 1km² if you include the underdark) while the full map of TW3 are something like 130 km² (skyrim = 40km², RDR2 = 72km², GTA5 = 125km²). BG3's full map may probably reach 10km² at best. The map may look bigger and you play HOURS on a "small" map because the content is very condensed.

The fact that the map design is not a "problem" for everyone does not mean that this statement is false and that we have to go into delusions to explain things.

Ah, now I see what the problem is. This isn't an open world game, because you literally won't be able to walk from this map to Baldur's Gate. It will require area transitions, because this isn't the whole world, but one area within the world. Unlike TES or Fallout games, from 3, anyway, where you literally can traverse the whole map, with dungeons and homes requiring an area transition, here, just as in Baldur's Gate 1 and 2, Dragon Age, Mass Effect, etc., you have to travel to different zones via an area transition. Any argument based on "open world game" will fall flat, because it doesn't apply here.

As to scale, when I look at a map of the US, I can actually see all 50 states. The "distance" between Chicago and Kansas City is most definitely not to scale, because it's literally easily measured in inches, while it's actually hundreds of miles. If maps were "to scale", they would be impossible to use, that's why they include an "X = y miles" scale. So the "delusion" here is that we need use an open world game as a comparison, when that's not the case. What leads me to believe that? Look at the games you listed as a comparison. A more accurate comparison would have been Dragon Age et al, Baldur's Gate et al, Icewind Dale et al, or NWN et al. You know, games that have lots of areas that require area transitions to get to, instead of open world games.

We could nitpick about what is really an open world game and what is not, but BG3 is definitely not AT ALL like BG1 and 2, Dragon age Origin or Mass Effect either.
BG3 will have something like 8 "medium" regions while BG1 has something like 30 "small" area. The worldmap is useless in BG3 while it's a part of the world design in the other games. When you're in a village, you're in a village. When you're in a forest, you"re in a forest. Between the forest and the village there's something that the game doesn't show you (worldmap). That's not how it works in BG3 and the forest between the villages doesnt even look like what most of us usually call "forest".

Of course BG3 is not a real open world game but you're absolutely wrong if you consider that the design is the same as the games you named. It's a middle ground that lead to this unique (and strange theme park) style.

There is no nitpicking required. Open world games have a definitive definition, and despite your claims, this game does not fall into that category. You cannot, and will not be able to, traverse the entire map w/out loading screens. In this regard, it is exactly like all of the games I listed as valid comparisons. Your opinion is fine, but your method is flawed. It's "useless" here because it literally has no use, other than demonstrating that there's more to the world than this one map.

So, what do "most of us" call a forest? Is it "densely packed trees with game trails that you can barely traverse", or "a lot of trees in one location, with maybe a river/stream running through it with open meadows and game trails"? Now I don't know what most of you call a forest, but I've been in both of these examples. I've been in a forest where I couldn't see the canopy, because the trees were so tall; Sequoias. So you have a presumably narrow definition of what you'd accept as "a forest", and anything that doesn't fit that preconception is wrong? Based on how you want to "nitpick" what an open world game is, it's likely that your preconceived notion is wrong.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Short Rest Poll - 10/06/22 05:56 PM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
It ISN'T. And yet... it is. And that's the problem.
Now you get it. laugh


Originally Posted by GM4Him
The Dank Crypt's entrance is on the beach. You crash on the beach. The nautiloid is north of your position. It's tentacles are still around you and over the beach where you crashed. So, you KNOW the nautiloid crashed on the edge of the beach.
But how big is that beach?
That is the real question here ... was Nautiloid few steppes back, or few miles back?

Yes i know you can still "see the tentacles" but "seeing the tentacles" is exactly the same problem as with "measuring the distance by using distance you can run during single turn" you did last time ...
Bcs you keep measuring game enviroment. :-/

In order to understand that abstraction, you simply have to accept the possibility that someone draw a line there and distance that is in the line is unknown.

Like this:
This is what you see:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

And this is what it could easily mean ... if im right and distances in game are to some sort of degree abstract:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

AND (and that is the most important point) anything in between those two options aswell. laugh


Originally Posted by GM4Him
You travel around the bend to the pier with the dead fishermen.
You are traveling within wreckage of the Nautiloid ... you are distracting yourself with this.
Its inside of single building ...
I mean yeah that ship was big, but hardly few miles. laugh


Originally Posted by GM4Him
Intellect devourers are all around, having come from the nautiloid that has crashed right there next to the dank crypt. If it was all abstract, it would take hours
Well even if it would take them hours ...

At the same time as there are Intellect devoureres "coming from the Nautiloid" ...
Karlach "also coming from the Nautiloid" is allready on her way to the Tollhouse at least ... Wyll is allready somewhere around Grove at least ... Gale started to explore teleportation runes, taking under concideration that you need to find one first in order to teleport there, we can be quite sure that he was on the cliff before ... and Shadowheart managed to reach doors of that crypt aswell.

So ... who can really say it would be impossible? laugh


Originally Posted by GM4Him
The only way the entire collection of scenarios makes sense is if it is all one map with everything literally near one another.
It would certainly make some sort of sense, yes ...
But it would also create lots of other problems, you have to admit it since you were complaining about them aswell. laugh

You know ... Goblins being unable to find something that would take them less time to walk than usual person need to travel to visit local store? laugh
Or that question with how long is Halsin missing, or what did he did so long out?
Stuff like that.


Originally Posted by GM4Him
Shadowheart, if you don't have her with you by then, is pounding at the door and mentions finding another way in at the top of the cliffs.
I have created new game specialy to check this ...
(Two actualy since first time i have created Githyanki ... bad choice laugh)

And the exact quote is:
"I'm going to see what's at the top of this cliff."
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

So i dont think she knew about any other way up ...
Question is: Wouldnt she know ... IF the map would be litteral? wink


Originally Posted by GM4Him
It only makes sense that the crashed nautiloid is blocking your path around, and the only way to get out of the area is through it two times - unless you cut straight through it and skip Astarion's area.
Yup. smile
(Yeah i cut the rest, bcs i didnt manage to find any sense in it. :-/ )


Originally Posted by GM4Him
But let's then say that the entire first area, including the Beach, Nautiloid, Astarion's Locale, the Path Where You Meet Gale, and the Dank Crypt are all one location that is literal. Then, after that, it becomes abstract between that basic area and the Wilderness/Grove where you meet Lae'zel and then get to Silvanus' Grove.

If that's the case, first of all, why NOT then make it a single map and have a transition point to the next area?
Bcs loadings are concidered boring. laugh

Come on, tell me ... and answer honestly ... how many times have you seen WHOLE cinematics that are in Tutorial?
How many times have you seen dragon landing on the tip of Nautiloid, or set it on fire and blown it ... How many times have you seen Illithid from help eating cambion, just to be killed by Imps moment later?

And the most important ... do you understand that no matter what number you say, unless you say "every single time i played" wich i doubt you would ... that is exactly the case. laugh

(And just for the record ... even if you would actualy never ever skipped single conversation, single cinematic, etc. ... other people still do, bcs we want to PLAY we dont want to see any tables with "boring stuff". laugh )


Originally Posted by GM4Him
But let's just say it's because you're avoiding transition times to speed up gameplay. Fine. Weird, but fine.
See? You get it. laugh


Originally Posted by GM4Him
Second, doing this actually strips players of freedom of choice.
I would say it lesens the risk that player will screw the story for themselves ...
Thats why some events are unavoidable, again common practique in PC games.

Originally Posted by GM4Him
look upon the Dank Crypt, the cliff where Nadira is with her telescope, and Orn the bear down by the shore...
Again, measuring in-game distances ... same misstake over and over.


Originally Posted by GM4Him
Is there no path from there to other areas at all? Is the only path, even when you pass for miles of distance, out through the eastern gate of the grove and down that single path?
What would be the point of other paths? O_o
And i mean from roleplay perspective ...

You have the Grove ... and you have the Crypt ...
There is path between them ... and potentialy miles, miles, miles, miles and miles of forest ... where exactly would those "other paths" lead to? O_o

Originally Posted by GM4Him
And boy that's an awfully far distance for the tiefling boy to wander from the safety of the grove even though there are lots of goblins lurking about looking to kill them - and gnolls who months before slaughtered a lot of them. Kinda weird that he'd wander to the beach so far away with so many dangers lurking around. He might go a short distance if he was poking his nose outside the grove a bit and heard some enchanting music, but miles? Not likely.
And that is EXACTLY the part where that abstraction come to play. smile

You seem to keep presuming that 1 step in game = 10 steppes in the world ...
But that is not the case.
Sometimes you walk 50 feets in game ... and it is 50 feets in the world ...
Sometimes you walk 50 feets in game ... and it is 500 feets in the world ...
Sometimes you walk 50 feets in game ... and it is 50.000 feets in the world ...
That is basicaly the definition of "inconsistency". :-/

There are just parts of map missing, no they are not missing everywhere, and no they are not the same size ... but they HAVE TO BE missing, so the game goes smoothly, so the story makes sense, so Larian dont need to spend 10 years just creating the enviroment. laugh


Originally Posted by GM4Him
Thirdly, the harpies are singing a tune that mirrors Alfira's. Now that's strange. Why would they sing a tune that is close to hers if they didn't hear her singing the tune? How could they hear her sing the tune if they were miles away?

Nope. All the evidence points to it all being a literal distance.
You noticed they have wings, and can move ... right? laugh
I also dare to presume that you are familiar with therm "easter egg" ?
Nah, just kidding. smile

For the real tho:
Thats the neat part, it can be litteral distance. laugh
Thats the problem here ... we dont know where Larian draw their lines, we dont know wich part of how big part of the world they deleted in order to create this map. smile


Originally Posted by GM4Him
In the bog, there is a camp. A child and parent were killed there by what appears to be ettercaps.
I checked this aswell ...
And in my game Tav said it seems like the work of Red caps. O_o

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

So ... im skipping the rest of the point, since i presume this was just misstake. smile


Originally Posted by GM4Him
what about the fact that I have engaged the Gith Patrol in combat and run to Waukeen's Rest and actually received the aid of the Flaming Fist to help me fight them and kill them? Are you implying that while in combat my character ran miles upon miles along a single road with Gith hot on my trail?
Nah ... i would imply you are just purposefully trying to break the game, and you succeeded ... just as people do when they are using exploits ... clap, clap, congratulations, confetti, champagne and the usual stuff ...
You find out that system isnt perfect, hope you are happy now. smile

Now, what were we talking about? laugh


Originally Posted by GM4Him
IF I traveled for 8 hours ... why on God's Green Earth would my companions then say they're tired and we should call it a day?
Have you ever tryed to travel 8 hours straight?
There is your answer. laugh


Originally Posted by GM4Him
We haven't done a God-blessed thing?
There is one thing ... you may find it interesting, maybe you heard about it ... its called "Immersion" and its not used only when you coveniently need some argument to support something you want. laugh


Originally Posted by GM4Him
The game encourages Long Rests - OFTEN!
Yup ... no surprise there.


Originally Posted by GM4Him
This is especially true if upcoming battles are tough - like the spider lair - and you know you need a full rest to take the monster on.
Uh hello? Immersion ... again ... remember?
Thats how the game is telling you: You dont "know". laugh
(Also you dont really even "need" full rest for this one, but that is another topic.)


Originally Posted by GM4Him
The encounters are designed so that you are meant to Long Rest before them. But that's not how RPGs work. You aren't supposed to know what's coming, and if you don't know what's coming, you need to still be able to beat it without having to reload. The whole point of a ROLEPLAYING game is that you are taking on the role of the character. You are meant to be able to survive EVERY encounter even if you have absolutely no idea what's coming.
Funny ... you seem to understand. laugh
And yet ... you are able to write the first quoted sentence ... im confused. O_o
Posted By: Maximuuus Re: Short Rest Poll - 10/06/22 06:01 PM
Loading screen or not is definitely nitpicking, so is "despite your claims, this game does not fall into that category" when I clearly wrote "of course BG3 is not a real open world game".
The point remains the same. BG3's maps are not designed at all like the maps in the other games you named even if there are loading screens in all of them. If loading screens is your only argument, I'm definitely out.

I've personnaly never called "forest" a pack of 25 trees I can cross in 3 minutes. Maybe you already have.
(The river doesn't run trough "the forest", it's goes along it. But that's a detail).
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Short Rest Poll - 10/06/22 06:03 PM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
OR... Yeah. They could have smaller areas with gateways to the next.
Lets play pros and cons! laugh

Pros:
Originally Posted by GM4Him
THIS adds immersion and clearly says to players, "You are going a considerable distance."

Cons:
Originally Posted by Rhobar121
it would be boring.

Of course, they could cut the map to pieces only that would do more harm to the game than the current state.

Individual areas would be quite small

not to mention the need for continuous loading.

This would be a pretty big problem with multiplayer.

Now wich desing win this contest hm?
You will find out AFTER the commercials!

Nah, just kidding ... the one Larian used, obviously ... only mad man would sacrifice everything else just to get some level of immersion. laugh

---

Originally Posted by Flooter
It feels like BG3 maps use the same basic concept of parallel scales for distances between “activity hubs” and “connective tissue”.
Wanna hear something crazy?

Larian also uses two time-scales running in parallel ...
Sadly that causes some bugs to occur quite often. :-/
Like if your turn takes too long, time-limited (aka turn-limited in turn based mode) effects (like AoE damage, buffs like bless or rage, ...) dissapear prematurely. frown

---

Originally Posted by mrfuji3
The issue with the BG3 map is that either things are differently scaled

And the former means that the map is inconsistent, which is additionally problematic because the map is inconsistent to an *unknown* degree, meaning the player has to assert their own headcannon for which areas aren't to scale, and to what degree.
I couldnt say it better, thank you!
Posted By: Rhobar121 Re: Short Rest Poll - 10/06/22 06:46 PM
Actually, if you think about it, any limitation of rest is completely pointless at the moment.
First, Larian would have to fix the events in the camp at least so that they could queue up rather than overwrite each other.
Despite having almost 200 hours on the meter, until today I have not seen Astarion's scene with the stars (if it weren't for YouTube, I wouldn't know it exists).
This is the real problem. Until this is resolved, any rest restrictions do not make any sense
Posted By: JandK Re: Short Rest Poll - 10/06/22 07:06 PM
None of this distance stuff bothers me when I'm playing. I don't want more loading screens. I don't want to spend an hour running my character from one place to another.

I get that I'm travelling when I go from the grove to the Blighted Village. It doesn't matter to me how far. I don't need to know exactly. It's enough to understand that the village is some distance away and travel is required. It's all suspension of disbelief.

Getting super literal and measuring the distance out at a couple of city blocks seems like an active effort to break immersion.

This is a game. It's going to have boundaries. There are limitations to what can be done, and you have to meet the devs at least halfway.

You could sit around all day wondering how the duergar and deep gnomes got to this section of the Underdark. Did they have to go to the surface and then go back down underground? What about the dead drow by the illusory mushrooms who was scouting out a new path to the surface? Where did he come from? There's no path that we can find to his city. And what about the prisoner who gets tortured? He runs off and disappears? Where did he go? Did he teleport? Or should we just accept that the environment is more complex than what we're seeing... because there are obvious limitations and the game environment is all we have available. We have to accept that there are additional paths.

Just like we have to accept that the goblins have additional areas to explore while they're looking for the grove. Of course, for us, there's only one path. It's simple to get from the grove to the goblin camp. We can't get lost in the forest. All we can do is walk along the road.

This is why it's hard for me to understand the complaint. I feel like, as someone else mentioned, it's complaining for the sake of complaining. Like it's just actively pointing out flaws that are clearly meant to be overlooked because it's a game and not real life.

Hyperfocusing on this stuff isn't particularly insightful. We all get it. You have to suspend disbelief with some stuff. It's not complicated.

Frankly, I would much rather things stayed the same with the map than to sit through loading screens and get obsessive about how far the pine tree is from the river's edge.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Short Rest Poll - 10/06/22 07:12 PM
@JandK
[Linked Image from cdn.discordapp.com]
Posted By: Icelyn Re: Short Rest Poll - 10/06/22 07:13 PM
Originally Posted by JandK
None of this distance stuff bothers me when I'm playing.
Same!
Posted By: Maximuuus Re: Short Rest Poll - 10/06/22 07:29 PM
Originally Posted by JandK
Getting super literal and measuring the distance out at a couple of city blocks seems like an active effort to break immersion.

For someone that's not bother by the lack of credibility of the area, it probably is.
Posted By: Stabbey Re: Short Rest Poll - 10/06/22 08:23 PM
Originally Posted by JandK
None of this distance stuff bothers me when I'm playing. I don't want more loading screens. I don't want to spend an hour running my character from one place to another.

(snip)

Frankly, I would much rather things stayed the same with the map than to sit through loading screens and get obsessive about how far the pine tree is from the river's edge.

I agree with all of this.
Posted By: robertthebard Re: Short Rest Poll - 10/06/22 09:09 PM
So, let's look at a typical playthrough with this "smaller areas with transitions":

Load into a map, do x, walk for 2 or 3 minutes, area transition. Load in, do y, walk for 2 or 3 minutes, area transition. Rinse and repeat.

I'm not interested. It's sort of funny to think about though. So, I've been playing Fallout 4 quite a bit recently. I only have about 20 or so mods running, but after about an hour or so of play time, going from an inside area to an outside area through a door can take anywhere from 2 to, and I've actually had this happen, 5 minutes. I'm left feeling grateful that I'm running it on an SSD, because if not, those times could be "get dressed, get on the bike, ride 40 miles to go to the store that's 5 blocks away, get some sandwich stuff, come home, make a sandwich and maybe the game will be loaded from a single transition". I spent about 8 minutes on an elevator that led to an outside area once, and once, I had to reload an earlier save, because it was over 10 minutes loading, this on an SSD... No thanks.
Posted By: Wormerine Re: Short Rest Poll - 10/06/22 10:29 PM
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
We could nitpick about what is really an open world game and what is not, but BG3 is definitely not AT ALL like BG1 and 2, Dragon age Origin or Mass Effect either.
Probably the closest comparison I can think of is NWN1 campaign - just erase transitions between different bits of the map. Outside D:OSs of course, that used the same structure (and narratively suffered from many of the same issues. Once again the map consists of multiple, separate zones with little thought put how characters in zone A would react to proximity of zone B. Shockingly, BG3 is not even that bad, compared to what we had in D:OS2.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Short Rest Poll - 10/06/22 10:35 PM
Now you're just being ridiculous. The initial conversation you have with Shadowheart is longer than 2 to 3 minutes. What we're suggesting is that the massive EA map could be broken into a few smaller maps so that there are natural transitions where they make sense.

So, one area would be the entire Beach and crypt including the wreckage of the ship in the area where you meet most of your companions. That is more than a few minutes of gameplay even if skip all of the cutscenes.

As you're heading towards the Grove, there is a transition so that the Grove area is then loaded. The entire Grove area all the way up to the river heading towards the village would be another separate map area. You can't tell me that you can do all of the grove in 2 to 3 minutes. Again, even if you skip all the dialogue, that's a sizable map location.

And, you may not even need a loading screen. A simple blackout for a few seconds while the game transitions to the new area is all you need. This would be just like when you are entering the Dank Crypt. There's no major loading scene when you go through the door into the Crypt. It's a blackout transition as the new area is loaded. Having smaller maps would speed up how long it takes for each area to load, so it wouldn't be that big of a deal.

This would then allow for a better resting mechanic. If all the map locations were smaller, they could create it so that you can't long rest until you reach the area exit. Thus, it would make more sense from an RPG perspective that you would have to complete an entire area before being allowed to end the day. This would then force you to use your short rest instead of long rest between encounters.

But what if my characters do really badly during certain fights and I can't continue unless I long rest? What's to stop me from going back to a previous area exit so that I can just long rest and return?

Respawn. If you leave the area and spend an entire rest of the day recovering, your enemies should replenish the area. Maybe they wouldn't have as many on the next day to face, but a respawning of enemies resets the game map so that it remains challenging. To be no different from an old school video game where you have to try to meet an entire level in one city or you have to start over on that level from the beginning. But again, maybe subsequent attempts are easier than the initial, or something of that nature.

But this is all pointless talk anyway. It's not really like they're going to do this. They'd have to revamp encounters to make this work, and they're not going to do it. At this point the game is probably what it is, and they're not likely going to make any changes other than minor stupid ones. So it doesn't really matter.

At this point, I don't care if they revamp the map or the resting system. I just kind of hope they at least revamp short rest. As it currently is, I find myself forcing myself to use them because I think they're just so pointless and stupid. There really is no reason to short rest. I get a ton of potions, I can use Arcane recovery at any time, and the only things that get reset are special abilities and warlock spell slots. In this game, warlocks are such a baby class that I hardly even play them. What's the point when the other classes are so much better. Wizards get a ton more spouse lots, and I can long rest whenever I want to replenish them.
Posted By: Rhobar121 Re: Short Rest Poll - 10/06/22 10:58 PM
Respawning enemies is probably the worst idea I've heard.
After I have fought enemies once and cleaned the area, I have no desire to do it again. It is annoying in every game I have played.
I don't care completely if the player could leave the area to rest, everyone plays as they please. Forcing you to clean an area in one rest is stupid.
Another thing, if you kill again enemy should drop exp and loot? If it's not even worse. Spending 3-5 minutes fighting with which you literally have nothing from it is annoying.
If you want to play like that, please do not force others to do it.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Short Rest Poll - 10/06/22 11:07 PM
Originally Posted by Rhobar121
Respawning enemies is probably the worst idea I've heard.
After I have fought enemies once and cleaned the area, I have no desire to do it again. It is annoying in every game I have played.
I don't care completely if the player could leave the area to rest, everyone plays as they please. Forcing you to clean an area in one rest is stupid.
Another thing, if you kill again enemy should drop exp and loot? If it's not even worse. Spending 3-5 minutes fighting with which you literally have nothing from it is annoying.
If you want to play like that, please do not force others to do it.

Lol. And I just threw that idea out there. I'm not trying to force anyone to play a certain way. Why does everyone get so defensive like that? And it's not like it matters. Like I said, they're not going to change anything like this. And also like I said, I really just want them to make the short rest mechanic a little bit more meaningful. Something besides a button push quick heal. I can use the endless potions I get to do that. It's practically useless as is.
Posted By: robertthebard Re: Short Rest Poll - 11/06/22 02:19 AM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Now you're just being ridiculous. The initial conversation you have with Shadowheart is longer than 2 to 3 minutes. What we're suggesting is that the massive EA map could be broken into a few smaller maps so that there are natural transitions where they make sense.

So, one area would be the entire Beach and crypt including the wreckage of the ship in the area where you meet most of your companions. That is more than a few minutes of gameplay even if skip all of the cutscenes.

As you're heading towards the Grove, there is a transition so that the Grove area is then loaded. The entire Grove area all the way up to the river heading towards the village would be another separate map area. You can't tell me that you can do all of the grove in 2 to 3 minutes. Again, even if you skip all the dialogue, that's a sizable map location.

And, you may not even need a loading screen. A simple blackout for a few seconds while the game transitions to the new area is all you need. This would be just like when you are entering the Dank Crypt. There's no major loading scene when you go through the door into the Crypt. It's a blackout transition as the new area is loaded. Having smaller maps would speed up how long it takes for each area to load, so it wouldn't be that big of a deal.

This would then allow for a better resting mechanic. If all the map locations were smaller, they could create it so that you can't long rest until you reach the area exit. Thus, it would make more sense from an RPG perspective that you would have to complete an entire area before being allowed to end the day. This would then force you to use your short rest instead of long rest between encounters.

But what if my characters do really badly during certain fights and I can't continue unless I long rest? What's to stop me from going back to a previous area exit so that I can just long rest and return?

Respawn. If you leave the area and spend an entire rest of the day recovering, your enemies should replenish the area. Maybe they wouldn't have as many on the next day to face, but a respawning of enemies resets the game map so that it remains challenging. To be no different from an old school video game where you have to try to meet an entire level in one city or you have to start over on that level from the beginning. But again, maybe subsequent attempts are easier than the initial, or something of that nature.

But this is all pointless talk anyway. It's not really like they're going to do this. They'd have to revamp encounters to make this work, and they're not going to do it. At this point the game is probably what it is, and they're not likely going to make any changes other than minor stupid ones. So it doesn't really matter.

At this point, I don't care if they revamp the map or the resting system. I just kind of hope they at least revamp short rest. As it currently is, I find myself forcing myself to use them because I think they're just so pointless and stupid. There really is no reason to short rest. I get a ton of potions, I can use Arcane recovery at any time, and the only things that get reset are special abilities and warlock spell slots. In this game, warlocks are such a baby class that I hardly even play them. What's the point when the other classes are so much better. Wizards get a ton more spouse lots, and I can long rest whenever I want to replenish them.

Except that I never said how long doing x or y would take? The point was that, depending on how well optimized this is going to be on release, you could wind up with a good chunk of your playtime in a loading screen. No thanks.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Short Rest Poll - 11/06/22 03:31 AM
Whatever. Like I said, it doesn't matter anyway.

Again. And again. The point of this thread is that Long rest is promoted. Short rest is limited and an afterthought. Encounters are designed in a way where it is basically expected that you will long rest before each fight. So, your party essentially sleeps for 8 hours, wakes up, adventures for a very short time, and calls it a day. Especially in the Underdark, this is very true.

This is stupid. It makes no sense from a Roleplaying game perspective. You are supposed to adventure for a long time and rest only when needed.

It's like playing Descent into Avernus and after getting the quest to go take out the Dead Three Cult, you call it a day. Then you journey to the hideout, fight the guards at the entrance and call it a day. You enter and fight a group of cultists, and call it a day.

The whole cult lair is meant to be one fluid sequence. You're supposed to do it all in one stint, and you do so by using short rests, potions and other items, etc. You don't long rest between fights.

If players feel that they should or need to long rest between just about every encounter, that's bad campaign design. Sure. You might say, "But I don't feel that way. I can go forever," but others don't. They feel that the adventure and NPCs are always pushing for frequent long rests instead of pushing for short.

What I really want is:

1. Untie dialogue from long rest - except those that make sense like Shadowheart's "Are you sure this is a good idea" dialogue.
2. Stop having characters say, "I'm tired. Better call it a day.". I don't mind said dialogue as long as I've lost like half the total party HP and used a bunch of spell slots. Then it makes sense.
3. Unlimit short rest so I can do it as much as I want, but limit it via Hit Dice so that it at least has some limit to it that encourages strategy.
4. Limit long rest in some fashion besides food because you get endless amounts of it and even if you didn't you could buy it. But heck, even if you kept the food limit but made food spoil or limit how much you find, that would at least be better. It would encourage short resting more. Just something to discourage long rest to add more value to short.
5. Have at least the burning building stop burning after you encounter it so it seems like time does actually pass, and ANYTHING you can do to add to time would be awesome. Have people stop having the same bloody convos every dang day. SOMEthing to make long resting more impactful to the world.
Posted By: OcO Re: Short Rest Poll - 11/06/22 05:14 AM
@RagnarokCzD I'd just like to say @GM4Him wasn't wrong with the comment on the death scene and Ettercaps. I haven't played in a few patches now, but at first and for a few patches at least, it did use to say Ettercaps. I spent a lot of time searching that area when the EA went live cause I thought there had to be an entrance to the Matriarch's lair hidden nearby somewhere.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Short Rest Poll - 11/06/22 06:36 AM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
So, one area would be the entire Beach and crypt including the wreckage of the ship

The entire Grove area all the way up to the river heading towards the village would be another separate map area.
Lets put aside for a second that the edges of areas could be elsewhere than you want them ...

Question is how would they do that?
I mean even if there would be some transition between Ship Wreckage and the Grove, you can still SEE both from the outpost. smile
That would be a problem ... if the game would really acnowledge how much time you were traveled. laugh


Originally Posted by GM4Him
And, you may not even need a loading screen. A simple blackout for a few seconds while the game transitions to the new area is all you need.
Do you know why you get "only a few seconds blackout"?
Its bcs the area you are getting to is allready loaded ... so to achieve the same you would need somehow this game to load several separated maps at once. O_o

Chubblot explains it quite well in this video:


Originally Posted by GM4Him
This would then allow for a better resting mechanic. If all the map locations were smaller, they could create it so that you can't long rest until you reach the area exit.
This would then force you to use your short rest instead of long rest between encounters.
Exactly ... and that is why it is so horrible idea.
Thank Gods, Larian dont want to "force" players to anything ... so this will most likely never happen. :3

Respawn.
Lets see: You are cleaning an area ... you are using your spellslots, consumables, shits as usualy ... now you get the feeling that you are too beaten to continue, so you go back and rest ... enemies respawn ...
You are cleaning an area ... you are using your spellslots, consumables, shits as usualy ... now you get the feeling that you are too beaten to continue, so you go back and rest ... enemies respawn ...
You are cleaning an area ... you are using your spellslots, consumables, shits as usualy ... now you get the feeling that you are too beaten to continue, so you go back and rest ... enemies respawn ...
You are cleaning an area ... you are using your spellslots, consumables, shits as usualy ... now you get the feeling that you are too beaten to continue, so you go back and rest ... enemies respawn ...
You are cleaning an area ... you are using your spellslots, consumables, shits as usualy ... now you get the feeling that you are too beaten to continue, so you go back and rest ... enemies respawn ...

See the problem? Or should i coppy it few more times? laugh

also ... lets see it from other perspective, that so called "immersion" ...


Next problem ...
Maybe you didnt noticed, but Larian is using a name for each and every companion instead of usual "Goblin 1", "Goblin 2" ... that allows eternal spawning.
As i allready explained in the past, there is no such thing as "random name generator" ... they all are just picking names from really big library and mash them together ... less sophisticated generators have full names, usual generators have names and surnames separated, very sophisticated generators are mashing together consonants ... but they still take things from LIMITED list ... what does it means?
Sooner or later (probably sooner, when we count in their look and not just name) exatly the same goblin you just killed is here again.

Isnt that immersion breaking? It seems so to me. smile


Next problem ...
I use Blighted Willage as example ...
There is patrol on Windmill, Blacksmith house, School house, Apothecary and in the Barn ...
I get there, fight the Goblins at Blacksmith, Apothecary and the Barn ...
I beat them all, steal their riches and stuff ... i leave School and Windmill ... i get the feeling that im too beaten to continue ...
I go rest ... so they respawn ...
And now one of two things can happen:
1) Their loot (and not just weapons, but also things in crates and lockboxes) respawned aswell ... meaning i basicaly just created infinite XP and infinite Gold cheat in my game.
2) Their loot DIDNT respawn aswell ... meaning i have no reason to go back to those places i allready looted ... meaning i simply can rest after every single encounter without any restriction, so NOTHING CHANGED from curent state. laugh

Also, just side note ... if i clean the group around Windmill ... and i rescue the Gnome ... then i go rest ... why will those Goblins be gathered around Windmill when they respawn? laugh Will i rescue the Gnome 7 times per week? laugh


I could probably find some more, but this should help you ge the idea why respawning in such game is so bad. laugh


Originally Posted by GM4Him
But again, maybe subsequent attempts are easier than the initial, or something of that nature.
That would be fun ... reducing number of enemies by 1 with every rest until one sad allone goblin will patrol the whole area. laugh
Pure gold. xD

---

Originally Posted by OcO
@RagnarokCzD
but at first and for a few patches at least, it did use to say Ettercaps.
I know, that is why i said it "was a misstake" ...

You know in the past i had this argument with GM about Shadowheart and one of arguments was that she have certain amount of Black Gems in her gear (5 was the number i think) ... i posted her screenshot and marked every single one of them (they was 2) ... and then i was told that this image is outdated and anything that was changed by Larian is no longer relevant ...
So i simply applied the same logic here ... Larian changed this, so any mentions on Ettercaps are no longer relevant. wink
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Short Rest Poll - 11/06/22 06:55 AM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Encounters are designed in a way where it is basically expected that you will long rest before each fight.
So you allready said in the past ... several times ... countless times even.
Isnt it about time to also tell us how did you get that impression, or will you just repeat the same sentence over and over and over hoping we will accept it without questions? laugh

You know this is exactly the same bullshit as when people were complaining around here that this game "have combat created around gimmics" ...
If that would be true, it would be impossible (or nearly impossible) to complete it without them ... but that was never the case.

And so it isnt here ...
You can run through whole Spider Lair, Hag Lair (there you even have to, unless you leave), Goblin camp, Grymforge, etc. all of them within single ingame-day ... and if you cant, then im sorry you have to find out this way ... but honestly you do something wrong.


Originally Posted by GM4Him
You are supposed to adventure for a long time and rest only when needed.
Need is relevant therm ... my party needs to rest after long and exhausting traveling ... its called immersion. :P
If your not, good for you ... or maybe bad in this circumstances. laugh

You know i knew people like you, when i played WoW on Roleplay servers ...
People who never gets tired while runing across the map, or riding a horse for few hours straight ... bcs there is no exhaustion bar in the game.
People who never drinks with their martial classes ... bcs they dont use mana anyway. laugh
People who see no problem to talk with their friends on fire how they "again" decapitated some strong enemy.

You are so freaking focused on game mechanics you seem to forget that the whole point of roleplaying is to play a role. laugh

I mean ... sure, be my guest, play however the f**k you want ...
Just, since i dont find you qualified to decide what "makes sense" from roleplay perspective ... dont mess with my games. :-/


Originally Posted by GM4Him
You might say, "But I don't feel that way. I can go forever," but others don't.
What others exactly do you mean? Bcs, and dont get mad, but ... i dont see them around. O_o

Since i would like to ask them one thing ...
If you people feel like you should rest after every single encounter ... and you can ... what are you complaining about exactly? laugh
Posted By: Maximuuus Re: Short Rest Poll - 11/06/22 07:10 AM
Originally Posted by Wormerine
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
We could nitpick about what is really an open world game and what is not, but BG3 is definitely not AT ALL like BG1 and 2, Dragon age Origin or Mass Effect either.
Probably the closest comparison I can think of is NWN1 campaign - just erase transitions between different bits of the map. Outside D:OSs of course, that used the same structure (and narratively suffered from many of the same issues. Once again the map consists of multiple, separate zones with little thought put how characters in zone A would react to proximity of zone B. Shockingly, BG3 is not even that bad, compared to what we had in D:OS2.

Yeah and I'm absolutely not saying that everything is bad in BG3.

In exemple in my opinion the underdark is mostly fine.
If you remove all creatures it look like an entire area build as a whole rather than pieces of a puzzle (the story) glued together.

I really hope the rest of the game is gonna be less like the surface and more like the underdark. I guess it was easier for Larian to design the underdark because you can really explore it the way you want while there's a path to follow on the surface.

That said, in my opinion they could have made better choices for the surface both to limit the narrative issues and create a more coherent area.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Short Rest Poll - 11/06/22 01:24 PM
@Ragnarok

Please calm down. It's just a game. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter.

It doesn't matter if I say out here that I want them to rework the whole game. It doesn't matter if you say that you want them to change nothing. We can fuss and fight over this game for ten more years, and it still wouldn't change a thing. There's no need for all this.

At the end of the day, even if I suddenly agree with you, Larian might still change the mechanics and we'd both lose. Or even if you agree with me, they might not change a thing and we'd both lose. Whatever. It doesn't matter whether we agree or not. Neither of us has any power at all.

So please stop acting like I am some threat to you and your gameplay. I've said what I want. You've made it plain what you want. Let's just leave it at that.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Short Rest Poll - 11/06/22 02:16 PM
I see you refuse to answer even single question ... as usualy. frown
Instead you tend to personal attacks, as usualy. -_-
Posted By: Stabbey Re: Short Rest Poll - 11/06/22 02:41 PM
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
If you people feel like you should rest after every single encounter ... and you can ... what are you complaining about exactly? laugh

The complaint is that perhaps some of the encounters should be tweaked in difficulty so that they consume fewer resources, so that fewer players feel like they need to do a long rest after every one.


Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
I see you refuse to answer even single question ... as usualy. frown
Instead you tend to personal attacks, as usualy. -_-

Nothing about GM4Him's response could possibly be considered - by anyone who was posting in good faith - as a personal attack.
Posted By: mrfuji3 Re: Short Rest Poll - 11/06/22 03:18 PM
Originally Posted by Stabbey
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
If you people feel like you should rest after every single encounter ... and you can ... what are you complaining about exactly? laugh

The complaint is that perhaps some of the encounters should be tweaked in difficulty so that they consume fewer resources, so that fewer players feel like they need to do a long rest after every one
I don't think this would fix anything. While some encounters should certainly be made less tedious (40 goblins ugh), combat encounter difficulty isn't really the problem. It's that LRing is so easy and other game mechanics (LR cutscenes, all new dialogue, companions explicitly saying "i'm tired") encourage resting to such a high degree. Sure, if all encounters were trivial, I'd *want* to LR less often. But I'd most likely end up resting the exact same amount in order to not miss content. If anything, easier encounters would make the contradiction in BG3's LR-system-vs-content design even more apparent.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Short Rest Poll - 11/06/22 03:28 PM
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
I see you refuse to answer even single question ... as usualy. frown
Instead you tend to personal attacks, as usualy. -_-

OMG, Rag. I don't have time to respond to every thing you pick apart... And what's the point? It won't make a difference. So I get to the place where I just give up and stop trying to reason with you.

And I do tend to think you are getting a bit hostile when you start saying things like "I mean ... sure, be my guest, play however the f**k you want ...
Just, since i dont find you qualified to decide what "makes sense" from roleplay perspective ... dont mess with my games. :-/"

Using the F-bomb typically implies you're getting a bit more upset, and "dont mess with my games" implies you're feeling attacked because it's quite defensive.

But whatever. Again. It doesn't matter.
Posted By: robertthebard Re: Short Rest Poll - 11/06/22 04:13 PM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Whatever. Like I said, it doesn't matter anyway.

Again. And again. The point of this thread is that Long rest is promoted. Short rest is limited and an afterthought. Encounters are designed in a way where it is basically expected that you will long rest before each fight. So, your party essentially sleeps for 8 hours, wakes up, adventures for a very short time, and calls it a day. Especially in the Underdark, this is very true.

This is stupid. It makes no sense from a Roleplaying game perspective. You are supposed to adventure for a long time and rest only when needed.

It's like playing Descent into Avernus and after getting the quest to go take out the Dead Three Cult, you call it a day. Then you journey to the hideout, fight the guards at the entrance and call it a day. You enter and fight a group of cultists, and call it a day.

The whole cult lair is meant to be one fluid sequence. You're supposed to do it all in one stint, and you do so by using short rests, potions and other items, etc. You don't long rest between fights.

If players feel that they should or need to long rest between just about every encounter, that's bad campaign design. Sure. You might say, "But I don't feel that way. I can go forever," but others don't. They feel that the adventure and NPCs are always pushing for frequent long rests instead of pushing for short.

What I really want is:

1. Untie dialogue from long rest - except those that make sense like Shadowheart's "Are you sure this is a good idea" dialogue.
2. Stop having characters say, "I'm tired. Better call it a day.". I don't mind said dialogue as long as I've lost like half the total party HP and used a bunch of spell slots. Then it makes sense.
3. Unlimit short rest so I can do it as much as I want, but limit it via Hit Dice so that it at least has some limit to it that encourages strategy.
4. Limit long rest in some fashion besides food because you get endless amounts of it and even if you didn't you could buy it. But heck, even if you kept the food limit but made food spoil or limit how much you find, that would at least be better. It would encourage short resting more. Just something to discourage long rest to add more value to short.
5. Have at least the burning building stop burning after you encounter it so it seems like time does actually pass, and ANYTHING you can do to add to time would be awesome. Have people stop having the same bloody convos every dang day. SOMEthing to make long resting more impactful to the world.

To me, all rests are an afterthought, with the unfortunate side effect of missing out on content because of things that are tied to LRs. I've been advocating for a way to "fix" that for a long time. Whether it's removing the need to actually rest with "Hey, can I talk to you in private", which would mean going to camp to talk, or just removing the need to go to camp for some of them, as can already happen with Shadowheart at the altar. If one feels like LRs are abuseable, they have the option to simply not abuse them. So, railing against this option doesn't come across as "improving the game" but more as "controlling how someone else plays it". From my perspective, you are abusing LRs, and I say this as someone that is impacted by not abusing them.

So, as I have said before, limit LRs by requiring x amount of SRs before you can take one, and limit SRs by time between them, and the number you can take "per day", whether that's as it is now, or with HD, or whatever. My playstyle will still suffer, however, if important story beats, or companion interactions, aren't highlighted in some other way to let me know I need to do something about it.

3. Un-limit SRs, but limit them. Is it any wonder some people are scratching their heads? I paraphrased that from the actual quote, but the quote is here, and is copy/pasted, so that people can see what it is that I'm actually responding to.
Posted By: Stabbey Re: Short Rest Poll - 11/06/22 04:55 PM
Originally Posted by mrfuji3
I don't think this would fix anything. While some encounters should certainly be made less tedious (40 goblins ugh), combat encounter difficulty isn't really the problem. It's that LRing is so easy and other game mechanics (LR cutscenes, all new dialogue, companions explicitly saying "i'm tired") encourage resting to such a high degree. Sure, if all encounters were trivial, I'd *want* to LR less often. But I'd most likely end up resting the exact same amount in order to not miss content. If anything, easier encounters would make the contradiction in BG3's LR-system-vs-content design even more apparent.

Oh there are definitely other fixes, such as moving some rest cutscenes to crossing unmissable triggers on the map or making them available for both long AND short rests.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Short Rest Poll - 11/06/22 05:04 PM
Originally Posted by Stabbey
The complaint is that perhaps some of the encounters should be tweaked in difficulty so that they consume fewer resources, so that fewer players feel like they need to do a long rest after every one.
If could have ben, yes ... but it was not.

Complaint was that game encourages players to use Long Rests instead of Short rests ...
No matter how hard would encounters be, Long Rest will allways be more effective, so the complaint would remain the same even if every single encounter in game would be resolved by single cantrip. O_o


Originally Posted by Stabbey
Nothing about GM4Him's response could possibly be considered - by anyone who was posting in good faith - as a personal attack.
Thank you for your opinion ... nobody asked for. :-/

Now if you dont mind (and honestly, even if you do), i will be judge of when i feel attacked ... k?
And i will certainly appreciate if you will stick to your own business aswell. wink

---

Originally Posted by GM4Him
I don't have time to respond to every thing you pick apart...
You can focus only on those that ends with questionmark. wink
Thats all i asked.


Originally Posted by GM4Him
And what's the point?
You tell me. laugh
You created this. smile


Originally Posted by GM4Him
So I get to the place where I just give up and stop trying to reason with you.
Yeah i noticed ...
And it was certainly not recently ... you start a debate, sometimes raise few interesting opinions (lately just repeating the same with different words), people start talking about them, and after some time ... you loose interest, and come back just to repeat nothing really matters, you no longer care, or continuing in that topic is pointless.

Funny it usualy dates exactly the moment when people start either asking hard questions, or showing on examples why would such suggestion never work. O_o
Coincidence? I think not.


Originally Posted by GM4Him
And I do tend to think you are getting a bit hostile when you start saying things like "I mean ... sure, be my guest, play however the f**k you want ...
Just, since i dont find you qualified to decide what "makes sense" from roleplay perspective ... dont mess with my games. :-/"
What is hostile about encouraging people to do anything they want? laugh


Originally Posted by GM4Him
But whatever. Again. It doesn't matter.
See this is another thing ... you try hard to make the expression you dont care ... but if you dont care, why bother telling us that you dont care? smile

---

Originally Posted by Stabbey
Oh there are definitely other fixes, such as moving some rest cutscenes to crossing unmissable triggers on the map
This dont sound like good idea. :-/

Personaly i dislike that Astarion thirst for blood is triggered by examining corpse of pig ... things like theese should in my honest opinion be strictly tied to amount of Long Rests ...

With triggers like this you can on one night have Astarion thirsty by second night (not sure about first one, since there is many conversations that would overwrite it in my opinion but didnt try) ... and in second gameplay, when you purposefully avoid the pig you never, ever, ever find out he is a Vampire (no matter how obvious it is).

Or another example is Gale hunger for magical artefact, if you keep him just "somehow liking you, but not too much" it never happens! O_o


Originally Posted by Stabbey
making them available for both long AND short rests.
Im affraid i have seen somewhere Swen talking about this is technically impossible, since as they are focused on this whole "cinematics" ... they need specific place to record it.
If you would make talking with companions possible anywhere ... they would need to just strictly stand on place, and dont even gesture much, since otherwise they could easily end in some texture. laugh
Posted By: Gray Ghost Re: Short Rest Poll - 11/06/22 06:23 PM
Yeah, I do think that the main problem with the long rest system as it stands isn't just how effortlessly abuseable the system is, but that players HAVE to abuse it in order to engage fully with their party. I'm sure at full release it's going to be better since they'll have fixed ome of the issues with how cut scenes are prioritized, and with the issue of companion cut scenes often overwiting one another, but that's only part of the problem. On a first playthrough, there's no way to know when a cut scene will happen or why. So even if a player doesn't want to abuse the system, they're potentially going to feel forced to do so in order to not miss out on a significant portion of the game. And that is a problem which NEEDS to be addressed.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Short Rest Poll - 11/06/22 07:00 PM
Originally Posted by robertthebard
3. Un-limit SRs, but limit them. Is it any wonder some people are scratching their heads?

OK. Sorry. Explained this so many times that I didn't realize how it might come across to someone who hasn't read the explanation before.

By Un-limit SRs, I mean make it so that you can do more than 2 per day. My point is that the resting system is backwards. Short Rests should be promoted. A DM should WANT the players to SR as much as they can while LR'ing less. This stretches out the adventuring day so it doesn't feel like players have sucky, bad, weak characters. You WANT players to feel like their characters are powerful, even at level 1. You don't want players to feel like they can't kill anything and their characters are dumb.

So, you promote SRs. Limiting SRs to 2 per day, however, while having unlimited LRs essentially says, "Hey players. LR more and SR less."

But, you still need SOME sort of limits to SRs or you will then make those who benefit more from SRs more powerful than those who only benefit from LRs. In other words, if SRs aren't limited in some way, Warlocks then become MORE powerful than Wizards. Warlocks only ever get a few spell slots, even at higher levels, but their spell slots reset per SR. Meanwhile, Wizards get WAY more spell slots, but they only reset via LR. So, if SRs are totally unlimited, the Warlock can spam SR forever and wind up having more spell slots than Wizards, making them more powerful. But, as the game is currently, with only 2 SRs per day, the Warlock's class is totally nerfed.

That's why I said they should do like 5e was designed and limit SRs via Hit Dice. As was mentioned by someone on this thread, SRs eventually do promote LR because you only get half your Hit Dice back per LR. So, you have to strategically use Hit Dice and plan them out well, along with your SRs, so you don't mess yourself over later.

And THAT'S what I want. Strategy. Something meaningful. Something more than a push of a button that is a convenience, and something that promotes SRs and discourages just using LRs. I want things to have meaning and purpose. Otherwise, just remove it.

Seriously, I'd rather they do something like NWN, where resting was a five second "bend the knee" moment and then you continue on with your day than this current resting system. At least then I'd feel like my characters aren't sleeping their lives away with brain-eating tadpoles in their heads.

Quote
See this is another thing ... you try hard to make the expression you dont care ... but if you dont care, why bother telling us that you dont care? smile

"But whatever. Again. It doesn't matter." This phrase does not mean "I don't care." It means that no matter how much you argue with me, and how much I respond to you - no matter how much we pick apart each other's comments and statements and whatever - at the end of the day, it doesn't matter. What are we changing? Even if I were to somehow convince you that I'm right and the current resting system sucks, it changes nothing. You aren't Larian. You won't go and change the game. Likewise, even if you convinced me to leave the game as is, it changes nothing. I'm not Larian. They might change the game regardless of what we decide - and they might even do it in a way we don't want.

So it doesn't matter, and thus, why waste time going back and forth picking apart the things we say to each other. See, you keep trying to do that, and to get me to do that, but I don't want to. I state my suggestion and opinion. You state yours. Larian now knows what we both think. Great. Glad.

And you know what else motivates me to not go back and forth with you? You're probably going to get what you want in the end anyway? Why? Because what you want is for Larian to virtually change very little in the game. So, you win - or you will likely win. So why bother? It's exhausting trying to answer your responses, and I frankly just don't have time. I'm only responding now because I care about you and don't like just ignoring people.

But anyway, you know what? I'm also perfectly fine if Larian doesn't change anything. I love the game. I'd love to see it improved, and I'd love to see some of my suggestions actually done in the game, but I'm fine with them not doing them. Why? Because I love the game. Do I think it could be better? Yes. That's why I bothered to come out here and post suggestions. I wanted to make the game better. I wanted to be apart of building a fun and exciting game.

But in the end, what do I have to show for it? Which of my suggestions did they actually implement? Hmmm...

So, I say again, "it doesn't matter."
Posted By: robertthebard Re: Short Rest Poll - 11/06/22 07:29 PM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Originally Posted by robertthebard
3. Un-limit SRs, but limit them. Is it any wonder some people are scratching their heads?

OK. Sorry. Explained this so many times that I didn't realize how it might come across to someone who hasn't read the explanation before.

By Un-limit SRs, I mean make it so that you can do more than 2 per day. My point is that the resting system is backwards. Short Rests should be promoted. A DM should WANT the players to SR as much as they can while LR'ing less. This stretches out the adventuring day so it doesn't feel like players have sucky, bad, weak characters. You WANT players to feel like their characters are powerful, even at level 1. You don't want players to feel like they can't kill anything and their characters are dumb.

So, you promote SRs. Limiting SRs to 2 per day, however, while having unlimited LRs essentially says, "Hey players. LR more and SR less."

But, you still need SOME sort of limits to SRs or you will then make those who benefit more from SRs more powerful than those who only benefit from LRs. In other words, if SRs aren't limited in some way, Warlocks then become MORE powerful than Wizards. Warlocks only ever get a few spell slots, even at higher levels, but their spell slots reset per SR. Meanwhile, Wizards get WAY more spell slots, but they only reset via LR. So, if SRs are totally unlimited, the Warlock can spam SR forever and wind up having more spell slots than Wizards, making them more powerful. But, as the game is currently, with only 2 SRs per day, the Warlock's class is totally nerfed.

That's why I said they should do like 5e was designed and limit SRs via Hit Dice. As was mentioned by someone on this thread, SRs eventually do promote LR because you only get half your Hit Dice back per LR. So, you have to strategically use Hit Dice and plan them out well, along with your SRs, so you don't mess yourself over later.

And THAT'S what I want. Strategy. Something meaningful. Something more than a push of a button that is a convenience, and something that promotes SRs and discourages just using LRs. I want things to have meaning and purpose. Otherwise, just remove it.

Seriously, I'd rather they do something like NWN, where resting was a five second "bend the knee" moment and then you continue on with your day than this current resting system. At least then I'd feel like my characters aren't sleeping their lives away with brain-eating tadpoles in their heads.

Except that, even with an HD limit, players would be treating SRs exactly like you're complaining about people treating LRs. If one can simply roll a Warlock, per your example, and just SR their way to victory, why roll anything else? This is why I'd much rather see LRs restricted by requiring x number of SRs in between, while limiting the number, and number of times, one can take a SR. Whether that's 2 "per day", or based on HD doesn't matter to me. What really and truly matters is that I won't miss out on a comp romance, for example, because I was busy playing the game, instead of spending a majority of my time in camp.

The beauty of this is that the LRs need not require one to exhaust all possible SRs. If we run with a HD restriction, and the player has 4 HD, we can still restrict LRs to requiring 2 SRs, for example. Then it's just a matter of determining a good "cut off" time for SRs. However, any system that's affecting LRs must have a way to fix the ability of a player to miss out on relevant content. Anything that doesn't address this does not fix the game, but breaks it. So, from where I'm sitting, this is like a 25% solution, which does nothing to address the overall problem that I have with how LR/story beats are handled. Some of them require LRs, the dream sequences for example, and Astarion's little "adventure". Some of them really don't, like Gale's Weave scene. That could just as easily be handled with a quest marker on him, or his portrait, telling me that he needs to talk, and if I talk to him, he can suggest talking in camp. This would not require a rest at all, just having the convo there.
Posted By: Rhobar121 Re: Short Rest Poll - 11/06/22 08:12 PM
The easiest solution is to queue events in the camp. When a player unlocks an event it is added to the pool.
When the player rests, the event is triggered in the order it was added. Thanks to this solution, the player will be able to run all cutscenes one by one without spamming the rest after each conversation. Of course, there is a high probability that some cutscenes will not make sense at some point, but this is quite a minor problem.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Short Rest Poll - 11/06/22 11:50 PM
Originally Posted by robertthebard
[quote=GM4Him][quote=robertthebard]

Except that, even with an HD limit, players would be treating SRs exactly like you're complaining about people treating LRs. If one can simply roll a Warlock, per your example, and just SR their way to victory, why roll anything else? This is why I'd much rather see LRs restricted by requiring x number of SRs in between, while limiting the number, and number of times, one can take a SR. Whether that's 2 "per day", or based on HD doesn't matter to me. What really and truly matters is that I won't miss out on a comp romance, for example, because I was busy playing the game, instead of spending a majority of my time in camp.

The beauty of this is that the LRs need not require one to exhaust all possible SRs. If we run with a HD restriction, and the player has 4 HD, we can still restrict LRs to requiring 2 SRs, for example. Then it's just a matter of determining a good "cut off" time for SRs. However, any system that's affecting LRs must have a way to fix the ability of a player to miss out on relevant content. Anything that doesn't address this does not fix the game, but breaks it. So, from where I'm sitting, this is like a 25% solution, which does nothing to address the overall problem that I have with how LR/story beats are handled. Some of them require LRs, the dream sequences for example, and Astarion's little "adventure". Some of them really don't, like Gale's Weave scene. That could just as easily be handled with a quest marker on him, or his portrait, telling me that he needs to talk, and if I talk to him, he can suggest talking in camp. This would not require a rest at all, just having the convo there.

I think we're not connecting. My first suggestion was to untie dialogue from LR. Of course certain ones would have to be triggered by LR, like Raphael, but trust me, those could be worked in easier if other dialogues aren't tied to LR.

I suggested numerous times that dialogues could be tied to SR, even sending the party to camp to make it easier on Larian to implement. This, promoting SRs with character development as well. This only works, though, if you allow more than 2 SR a day, which is another reason why I want them to unlimit SR in terms of the hard 2 a day limit.

Using Hit Dice to limit SR actually works well because you don't have to spend Hit Dice whenever you SR. For example, Lae'zel has 3 HD. She has only lost 2 HP. She SRs and spends no HD during the rest. She saves them for later. However, she regains her Action Surge and Second Wind. Meanwhile, Shadowheart has 3 HD and only has 2 HP left. Oh yeah, she uses all 3 HD during her SR because of how hurt she is. She gains her channel divinity charges back, but no spell slots because she's a cleric. Wyll has 3HD and uses 1. He gains his spell slots back.

They adventure. Lae'zel loses a lot of HP. SH doesn't. Wyll does. Lae'zel uses 2 HD. Wyll uses 2. Everyone's low on HD now. Next fight might do them in for the day.

Different day. Lae'zel survives 3 fights without using HD during rests. SH uses all hers, and so does Wyll. Player switches out Wyll and SH and adds Gale and Astarion. They have full HD. Party continues that day full strength. 3 fights later, they've all spent 2 HD. Total SRs that day? Between all characters, maybe 6-8 SRs.

2 Long rests. 6-8 SRs used wisely between all party members. Day is extended a lot, and dialogues could be stretched out among all 6-8 SRs and the 2 LRs.
Posted By: robertthebard Re: Short Rest Poll - 12/06/22 12:22 AM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Originally Posted by robertthebard
[quote=GM4Him][quote=robertthebard]

Except that, even with an HD limit, players would be treating SRs exactly like you're complaining about people treating LRs. If one can simply roll a Warlock, per your example, and just SR their way to victory, why roll anything else? This is why I'd much rather see LRs restricted by requiring x number of SRs in between, while limiting the number, and number of times, one can take a SR. Whether that's 2 "per day", or based on HD doesn't matter to me. What really and truly matters is that I won't miss out on a comp romance, for example, because I was busy playing the game, instead of spending a majority of my time in camp.

The beauty of this is that the LRs need not require one to exhaust all possible SRs. If we run with a HD restriction, and the player has 4 HD, we can still restrict LRs to requiring 2 SRs, for example. Then it's just a matter of determining a good "cut off" time for SRs. However, any system that's affecting LRs must have a way to fix the ability of a player to miss out on relevant content. Anything that doesn't address this does not fix the game, but breaks it. So, from where I'm sitting, this is like a 25% solution, which does nothing to address the overall problem that I have with how LR/story beats are handled. Some of them require LRs, the dream sequences for example, and Astarion's little "adventure". Some of them really don't, like Gale's Weave scene. That could just as easily be handled with a quest marker on him, or his portrait, telling me that he needs to talk, and if I talk to him, he can suggest talking in camp. This would not require a rest at all, just having the convo there.

I think we're not connecting. My first suggestion was to untie dialogue from LR. Of course certain ones would have to be triggered by LR, like Raphael, but trust me, those could be worked in easier if other dialogues aren't tied to LR.

I suggested numerous times that dialogues could be tied to SR, even sending the party to camp to make it easier on Larian to implement. This, promoting SRs with character development as well. This only works, though, if you allow more than 2 SR a day, which is another reason why I want them to unlimit SR in terms of the hard 2 a day limit.

Using Hit Dice to limit SR actually works well because you don't have to spend Hit Dice whenever you SR. For example, Lae'zel has 3 HD. She has only lost 2 HP. She SRs and spends no HD during the rest. She saves them for later. However, she regains her Action Surge and Second Wind. Meanwhile, Shadowheart has 3 HD and only has 2 HP left. Oh yeah, she uses all 3 HD during her SR because of how hurt she is. She gains her channel divinity charges back, but no spell slots because she's a cleric. Wyll has 3HD and uses 1. He gains his spell slots back.

They adventure. Lae'zel loses a lot of HP. SH doesn't. Wyll does. Lae'zel uses 2 HD. Wyll uses 2. Everyone's low on HD now. Next fight might do them in for the day.

Different day. Lae'zel survives 3 fights without using HD during rests. SH uses all hers, and so does Wyll. Player switches out Wyll and SH and adds Gale and Astarion. They have full HD. Party continues that day full strength. 3 fights later, they've all spent 2 HD. Total SRs that day? Between all characters, maybe 6-8 SRs.

2 Long rests. 6-8 SRs used wisely between all party members. Day is extended a lot, and dialogues could be stretched out among all 6-8 SRs and the 2 LRs.

I'm not down with all of that micromanaging just for a SR. There are already a lot of things I need to keep track of, and I don't fancy the notion of adding another list of things. This would be complicated with one character, and almost nightmarish with 4. Worse if you lose track of who has what HD to run this SR on. I would much rather see something like:

Average party HD is 4, and so, you have 4 SRs for this day. One button and done. For the sake of example, a LR requires that you take 3 SRs. A SR can only be taken once every 3 in game hours, to the maximum Average HD of the party. Combatting one spammable resource with another doesn't accomplish a whole lot, and with the right classes, it changes nothing.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Short Rest Poll - 12/06/22 12:39 AM
But it isn't complex. Solasta has done it very well, simple and hardly an issue of micromanaging.

Here's how it works:

4 party members at level 4. Each has 4 HD. You Short Rest. Menu pops up showing all 4 members and how many HD they have available. Lae'zel, SH, your MC and Gale. Lae'zel has 4d10, SH has 4d8, MC has 4d8 and Gale has 4d6. You use 2 HD for Lae, 1 for SH, 1 for MC and none for Gale. Computer tracks these. There is also a button on Gale's section for Arcane Recovery. Want to use it? Click the button. Done.

Next SR. Popup menu. Shows Lae has 2 HD, SH has 3, MC has 3 and Gale 4. Arcane Recovery is blanked out because Gale used it up. You use 0 HD for Lae, 1 for SH 0 for MC and 1 for Gale. Done.

Next SR. Popup menu. Lae has 2, SH has 2, MC has 3 and Gale has 3. You use 0 for Lae, 1 for SH, 1 for MC, 1 for Gale. Done. Note: Each SH, Lae gets Action Surge and Second Wind reset and SH gets her channel divinity charges back. MC is a Warlock and gets spell slots back each time.

Next SR. Popup menu. Lae uses 1, SH uses 1, MC uses 1 and Gale uses none. Done.

Decides to LR. Computer gives everyone 2 HD back (half total). You don't even have to do anything. Full reset on HP, abilities and such.

Or, instead of LR, the player decides to switch out. His MC still has a lot left in him. He also thinks Gale can keep going. Switches in Wyll and Astarion. Same day continues. Adventure day extended.

And so, each SR is only a few more button presses each. Instead of 1, it's maybe 1-2 clicks per character. What? 10 seconds in total? And you could then legit do dialogues during SRs by sending them to camp to SR. It's really not that much more to do or manage.

Certainly easier than the nasty item management system we're forced to deal with.
Posted By: JandK Re: Short Rest Poll - 12/06/22 02:59 AM
After much consideration, I think I've arrived at a solution. I believe that a long rest should be followed by an 8 hour cool down. The player should be forced to exit the game for the next 8 hours. This will make the choice to long rest something the player has to seriously consider.

In addition to this, I believe the short rest should be followed by a 1 hour cool down. If the player doesn't want to exit the game, maybe the screen can show the camp fire for the prescribed amount of time while a bit of soothing music plays.

All of this will bring a much needed level of gravitas and immersion to the resting system.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Short Rest Poll - 12/06/22 05:49 AM
OK. After a good deal of thought, and I mean a good deal of thought, I forced myself to remember what it was like when I first played the game - my very first playthrough. Setting aside ALL playthroughs since, here is what I came to the conclusion about:

Long Rest as is worked just fine. Why? Because on the initial playthrough only, I was fooled into thinking that Long Rest really did matter. I believed that I couldn't Long Rest often because I was going to turn into a mind flayer.

Now, that said, these are the things I remember thinking:

OMG. The first fight against the 3 intellect devourers was brutal and I HAD to Long Rest afterwards, just like the original tooltip suggested (for it used to suggest a long rest at that point, while now it suggests a short rest). Yes, the intellect devourers have since been nerfed into booty easy half-baked squishy brain thugs that can't do anything intellect devourers are supposed to do, but it is truly no longer as difficult and thus wouldn't likely require a long rest at this point.

Back to what I remember:

Still. I was actually scared to long rest, even though I knew I had to and figured the game wouldn't tell me to do it if I couldn't. So, I did, and I had Shadowheart scold me for doing so, but I was like, "Shut up, Wench! I nearly died. If we run into even more of those, we're totally dead. I know we might turn at any moment, but I have no freaking choice."

On we went the next day, and I was thankful for no signs of turning. We ran into Astarion, Gale, etc., got to the Dank Crypt with Gimblebock, chased him off, made our way inside, fought the mercenaries, and nearly died again. In fact, I think it took me like 3 times to get through that part without game over. Mari and Barton were brutal, and exploding surfaces! OH MY! And I had to long rest again.

Still, I did it as infrequent as possible. It wasn't because the game limited me, but because the story tricked me into thinking that I had to rest very little. As a result, I got a few dialogue cutscenes, but I missed Gale's Mirror Image and Go to Hell one on that initial playthrough. If I remember correctly.

The point is, in truth, the story does discourage long resting and encourages using short rests and whatever else you can use to keep going. So, in that regard, there is a sort of limit to resting and Larian does discourage long resting in some way.

BUT... and I must stress that it is a BIG BUT. Once I realized as a player that I'd been duped, I remember feeling very angry. Especially on subsequent playthroughs when I realized I'd missed some fun character development cutscenes, I was SUPER angry. That's my favorite part of games like this - the character development and interaction. Finding out I missed some just because I actually did what the story guided me to do, that made me REALLY unhappy.

And also BUT... and I must stress that it is a BIG BUT... I have never liked the short rest, quick click, kinda sorta heal functionality. It is SO much less strategic and intuiative than Hit Dice, and it strips short rest of many of its primary functions - such as Wizard Arcane Recovery ONLY being able to be done during a short rest. And as mentioned above and multiple times over and over again, limiting short rests to 2 per day really nerfs classes like the Warlock. You get 1 to 2 spell slots per short rest, which is only 6 total spell slots at most per day for like 10 levels - I can't remember exactly how many off the top of my head before you get your 3rd spell slot. Meanwhile, a Wizard will have a total of like 6 spell slots per day by the time s/he reaches what? Level 3? And the Warlock doesn't get that many other good perks as a class to make them worth much as a fighter or rogue or anything else. Other classes are also going to be nerfed because of this - druid being one of them because Wild Shape is also reset during short rests, as are fighter special abilities.

But Hit Dice effectively limits short rests while still allowing players to short rest as much as they want per day. Hit Dice would GREATLY encourage short rests over long while still keeping players from spamming short rest too much. "How?" you might ask.

First-time players will be tricked into thinking they shouldn't long rest, just as I was. So, they need an alternative and will naturally find short rest to be a good one. The tooltips now promote short rest after the intellect devourer fight, so first-time players will naturally use it first. Yay! Good. At level 2, which they should be at by the time of the intellect devourer fight, they'll have 2 HD per character. Click Short Rest. Menu pops up. There are 2 eight-sided dice for Shadowheart on the menu and 2 whatever dice for the MC. You click on one of the 2 for the MC, and the tooltips could tell you, "This heals you 1dX number of HP. You could use one or both HD right now. However, keep in mind that every time you Long Rest, you only get half as many HD back as your character level. So, at level 2, you will only get 1 HD back when you Long Rest up to your total of 2 HD. Use them wisely. Also keep in mind, though, that many special abilities and spell slots are reset when you short rest, depending on your class, while some classes only have their spell slots and special abilities reset during a long rest."

Afterwards, they could even have Shadowheart's, "I'm not sure this is such a good idea," cutscene dialogue play out. After all, she's not sure a short rest is even good with the tadpoles in your head. "We need to find a healer," speech makes sense. Why NOT have her say it during a short rest after so little time has passed since you crashed?

And, they warn you up front that you can get healed via HD during a short rest, and you will have some characters reset their special abilities and spell slots while others will not. Thus, you know immediately that there are limits to your resting, both short and long.

You continue. You short rest again after meeting Gale because you're still afraid to long rest because of the story - you have tadpoles in your head. You short rest a second time and use NO HD. You just did it to reset your special abilities and spell slots for some of your classes. Great. Fine. Mission complete. Good job Larian.

They could then have another dialogue triggered. Gale's mirror image scene or go to hell dialogue. Both of these begin to clue the player in that something is different with the tadpole. Maybe they CAN long rest and get away with it. After all, Gale's dialogues - both of them - and especially the Mirror Image one, imply that your tadpoles are special and you remain "blissfully unchanged."

What does this do? This lets the player know, instead of later blindsiding them, that they can long rest a bit more frequently without being so afraid to do so. After playing through a second time and beyond, players shouldn't have that same feeling I did that they were tricked and deceived and also that they missed out on content. Larian is having Gale actually warn them almost right away that they maybe can relax a bit and long rest.

But the game still warns you not to long rest too much because you could still turn at any moment. They're just letting you know it won't take hours. So you still kinda limit yourself. Shoot! To this day we don't really know how the finished product is going to manage this. None of us truly knows if Larian is going to have a set number of Long Rests are allowed before you have some sort of Dream Lover sequence even if you don't use illithid powers. They still might do something like that. We don't know. So it is still a legit method to discourage long rests.

Now, to make sure you didn't miss it, what I'm saying, in summary, is that long rest is still discouraged via story. If they added Hit Dice as the mechanic to limit short rest, and removed the 2 per day, this would encourage more short resting which in turn would naturally discourage long resting. With the story and an encouragement to short resting, people would naturally not long rest as much. Add food to it in more limited quantities, and I think it would really discourage long rest spamming and encourage more short resting.

Again, let me be clear, short rest via Hit Dice is NOT that complicated, time consuming, or difficult. It is a very easy mechanic to manage. You click Short Rest Button. Window pops up. Each party member is shown in the window with their Hit Dice. You click on the Hit Dice one at a time. It rolls and heals you that many HP (+ your Constitution modifer). YOU get to decide how much each character heals each Short Rest. And let me be clear. It's a QUICK dice roll - as in instant. Not the d20 animation style you get on skill checks but a - click on HD and get result instantly to your character - event. Not even a second transpires so you can click on 20 HDs in like 2 seconds and be done, if you wanted.

How hard is it? Let's count how many clicks. 4 party members at level 4. Click Short Rest Button. Click Hit Die for Character 1. Maximum 4 clicks for that character. Click Hit Die for Character 2-4. Max 4 clicks per character. Add a button for Arcane Recovery. That's maybe one extra click or 2 for wizards. Maximum number of clicks per Short Rest? 20 at level 4 if you count clicking that you're finished - and this is only if you have like a wizard with you. How hard is it to click 20 times? How long does that REALLY take you? And that's MAXIMUM number of clicks. You could short rest and click 4 times and be done... Or 3 times... Or 8... Or 2.

What are the benefits of this system?

1. More special ability and spell slot resets for classes like Warlock, Fighter, Monk, Druid, etc.
2. Arcane Recovery is now done via short rests, making short rests more valuable to wizards.
3. Short rests are encouraged while long rests are not needed as much. Thus, the adventuring day is extended instead of having people adventure 5 minutes and take the rest of the day off.
4. YOU get to decide how much your characters heal every short rest. You don't just have 2 per day, and if 1 or 2 characters didn't need to short rest, so what. It's not a wasted short rest. You could just have 2 characters heal and save the Hit Dice for the other two characters until they need it.
5. You can short rest a lot, switch out to still fully rested characters who haven't used Hit Dice, and continue your adventure with your still fully rested characters while leaving those you've spent Hit Dice for back at camp. Thus, you CAN utilize your WHOLE party more. You can switch out characters and still continue to short rest that day and receive benefits for it. In current game, if I've spent my 2 short rests with one party of 4, and I go to camp and switch out some of them, I can't short rest anymore.
6. Dialogues can be switched to short rest triggered dialogues pretty easily. Why? Because they could still have you go to camp during a short rest, and still have the dialogues they've already worked so hard on take place at camp. The only difference would be that it isn't night. It's day now when they take place. But, the benefit is that you wouldn't miss a lot of those dialogues that you miss now if you don't long rest frequently. In other words, by tying the dialogues to short rest, you have a much better chance that people will trigger them. And, just in case people skip short rests and just do long, they could still be tied to long rest too - so tied to both so players don't miss them.

So, again, to recap. What would they really need to change?

1. Short Rests trigger dialogues.
2. Remove the limit of 2 Short Rests per day.
3. Add the Hit Dice mechanic to Short Rests.
4. Send the party to camp for a Short Rest so dialogues can be done. (If they don't have to do this, I'm good with that. I just put this in here because I figure they probably would want to do this to make their lives easier. I am ALL for dialogues happening outside of camp on the road. I'd prefer it, actually.)
5. Make Arcane Recovery only available during a Short Rest as a simple, extra little button you press right near the Hit Dice buttons.
6. Limit food more (and this is a maybe. If they keep food as a limit for long resting, they really do need to limit it more).

What I'm saying is, this would NOT really be a major overhaul on Larian's part. Sure. On subsequent playthroughs, you might be like, "But I could long rest without limitation." But I will say that many have made some valid arguments in this regard. It is safer to have long rest unlimited so players don't get frustrated and soft locked than it is to try to figure out a decent long rest limitation that would work. The story does do a good job prompting players to long rest infrequently, and if they tied dialogues to short rest, it would work much more to prompt players to use short rests as their go-to instead of long.

Heck. If I knew I would get more character development if I short rest frequently, I'd be short resting ALL the time. No question. That alone would be a huge motivation to me to short rest instead of long. And the Hit Dice mechanic would also promote this for me because I could short rest more than 2 times a day AND I control who heals each rest. It isn't just a quick heal button you only get to use twice max per day and sucks to be you if only one or two characters needed it.

Seriously. It's a few clicks, people. A few clicks. It's not some hugely time consuming mechanic. Watch a Solasta short rest video and see for yourself. Even at higher levels, it's not a painful mechanic. It works REALLY well, and I can't stress enough how much I like the fact that with Hit Dice I am in control of how much each character heals and when.
Posted By: Elebhra Re: Short Rest Poll - 12/06/22 11:28 AM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
What are the benefits of this system?

1. More special ability and spell slot resets for classes like Warlock, Fighter, Monk, Druid, etc.
2. Arcane Recovery is now done via short rests, making short rests more valuable to wizards.
3. Short rests are encouraged while long rests are not needed as much. Thus, the adventuring day is extended instead of having people adventure 5 minutes and take the rest of the day off.
4. YOU get to decide how much your characters heal every short rest. You don't just have 2 per day, and if 1 or 2 characters didn't need to short rest, so what. It's not a wasted short rest. You could just have 2 characters heal and save the Hit Dice for the other two characters until they need it.
5. You can short rest a lot, switch out to still fully rested characters who haven't used Hit Dice, and continue your adventure with your still fully rested characters while leaving those you've spent Hit Dice for back at camp. Thus, you CAN utilize your WHOLE party more. You can switch out characters and still continue to short rest that day and receive benefits for it. In current game, if I've spent my 2 short rests with one party of 4, and I go to camp and switch out some of them, I can't short rest anymore.
6. Dialogues can be switched to short rest triggered dialogues pretty easily. Why? Because they could still have you go to camp during a short rest, and still have the dialogues they've already worked so hard on take place at camp. The only difference would be that it isn't night. It's day now when they take place. But, the benefit is that you wouldn't miss a lot of those dialogues that you miss now if you don't long rest frequently. In other words, by tying the dialogues to short rest, you have a much better chance that people will trigger them. And, just in case people skip short rests and just do long, they could still be tied to long rest too - so tied to both so players don't miss them.

So, again, to recap. What would they really need to change?

1. Short Rests trigger dialogues.
2. Remove the limit of 2 Short Rests per day.
3. Add the Hit Dice mechanic to Short Rests.
4. Send the party to camp for a Short Rest so dialogues can be done. (If they don't have to do this, I'm good with that. I just put this in here because I figure they probably would want to do this to make their lives easier. I am ALL for dialogues happening outside of camp on the road. I'd prefer it, actually.)
5. Make Arcane Recovery only available during a Short Rest as a simple, extra little button you press right near the Hit Dice buttons.
6. Limit food more (and this is a maybe. If they keep food as a limit for long resting, they really do need to limit it more).

This is an excellent write up. While Solasta is not a favorite of mine, the short rest mechanic in it was excellent. And I would shift spell preparation to SR as well, it's just makes a lot more sense that way.

Limiting LR is other thing and, while I do hope for some improvements in that regard, I don't see Larain succeeding at that. Every single attempt to translate LR mechanic into cRPGs failed in some regard.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Short Rest Poll - 12/06/22 11:51 AM
Yeah. I've kinda given up on LR limitations. If we can at least get some better SR mechanics that encourage more use of SR, that would go a long way.
Posted By: JiruoVX Re: Short Rest Poll - 12/06/22 04:08 PM
I would say 3-6 short rests. I think unlimited is abusable with certain class types. But to few hurts those same classes.

I do not think it should be level dependent. The rest system is a balancing mechanism that should function constant throughout progression.

Since the game can't time pressure us or give us complications for attempting a rest, the game has to provide another system to balance resting.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Short Rest Poll - 12/06/22 07:15 PM
Originally Posted by JiruoVX
I would say 3-6 short rests. I think unlimited is abusable with certain class types. But to few hurts those same classes.

I do not think it should be level dependent. The rest system is a balancing mechanism that should function constant throughout progression.

Since the game can't time pressure us or give us complications for attempting a rest, the game has to provide another system to balance resting.

Hit Dice makes it so abusing the system doesn't work. Why? Once a character or 2 are out of Hit Dice, it gets harder and harder to short rest and get anything out of it.

Example:. You're a Warlock, so you get spell slots reset every short rest. Big deal. Once you no longer get a healing benefit from short rest, it's usefulness drastically decreases. You only get 1 or 2 more spell slots per SR. It's not going to benefit you that much if you keep SRing when you have no more HD.

The only class that could spam short rest and fully heal as a result is Fighter with Second Wind. Big deal if the rest of your party is unable to do so. What? Fighter gonna solo the Gith Patrol or hag or spider matriarch? Even Lae'zel and MC Fighter would struggle with that.

The point is, if you limit SRs by HD and no hard limits, it works just fine, and SRs are promoted which means people will use LRs less, naturally, especially if they know they have a ticking time bomb in their heads.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Short Rest Poll - 12/06/22 08:10 PM
I thought that point was to make Short Rests more appealing ... so people choose to use them over Long Rest ...
How are Hit Dices suppose to achieve that?
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Short Rest Poll - 12/06/22 08:20 PM
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
I thought that point was to make Short Rests more appealing ... so people choose to use them over Long Rest ...
How are Hit Dices suppose to achieve that?

It's all about the presentation.

Look. I'm trying to throw you and Icelyn a bone here by saying maybe LR doesn't need to be limited much if at all. If newby players think they shouldn't LR much, and they have a good working SR system as an alternative, limiting LR might not be necessary. That's my point. HD limiting SRs might provide a better SR solution that would promote SRs, because you can SR more than 2 a day, dialogues tied to SR, many special abilities are reset, and YOU control who heals during SR and when and by how much. Add Arcane Recovery to SR as a limit to it, and that promotes SR even more.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Short Rest Poll - 12/06/22 08:47 PM
You would have to throw a whole cow in order to at least lure to me to start considering to bite. laugh
But anyway:

Tying dialogues to Short Rest is mechanicaly impossible ... i thought we are allready beyond that, since it was repeated at least dozen times. O_o

Amount of Short Rest was never an issue as far as i know ... you were coplaining that Long Rests are more effective and therefore there is no reason to use Short one ... that will remain unchanged even if you get 20 Short Rests per day. :-/

You control who heals and how much ... okey, that is good point ...
But how exactly is that better compared to curent system where everyone heals quite a lot? O_o
And you dont need to check another resource. O_o

Arcane recovery on Short Rest sounds like good idea ... but dont get mad, its the only good idea. :-/


Everything else seems to be easily achievable by simply giving 2 more Short Rests. laugh
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Short Rest Poll - 12/06/22 09:33 PM
Oh. Was I trying to convince you? Sorry. Didn't know you were Larian.

"Tying dialogues to Short Rest is mechanicaly impossible ... i thought we are allready beyond that, since it was repeated at least dozen times. O_o"

Is it? Did you actually prove it's impossible? Do you really know? I wasn't aware you were Larian.

"Amount of Short Rest was never an issue as far as i know ... you were coplaining that Long Rests are more effective and therefore there is no reason to use Short one ... that will remain unchanged even if you get 20 Short Rests per day. :-/"

It is an issue. That's my point. 2 SRs mean you'll SR less and LR more.

"You control who heals and how much ... okey, that is good point ...
But how exactly is that better compared to curent system where everyone heals quite a lot? O_o
And you dont need to check another resource. O_o"

I thought I made that clear. By controlling it with HD, you can SR more than 2 times per day with various party members. Has Gale used all his HD? Switch him out and bring in Wyll. Adventure continues. Same day. Adventure day extended.

"Arcane recovery on Short Rest sounds like good idea ... but dont get mad, its the only good idea. :-/"

Thank you for your opinion. Smiley winky face.
Posted By: mrfuji3 Re: Short Rest Poll - 12/06/22 09:38 PM
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Tying dialogues to Short Rest is mechanicaly impossible ... i thought we are allready beyond that, since it was repeated at least dozen times. O_o
No. This is nowhere near mechanically impossible and repetition wont make that claim any more true. There are many implementations that would enable this: short rests taking place at base camp, dialogues during short rests taking place at base camp, dialogues during short rests happening in the main world, dialogues during short rests happening in their own short rest pocket dimension, etc. Each solution would require some amount of work from Larian, but work does not equate to impossibility.

Also, the goal is to *untie* dialogues from anything. You should be able to talk to your companions nearly everywhere, without having to commit to take a long or a short rest.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Short Rest Poll - 12/06/22 09:57 PM
Originally Posted by mrfuji3
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Tying dialogues to Short Rest is mechanicaly impossible ... i thought we are allready beyond that, since it was repeated at least dozen times. O_o
No. This is nowhere near mechanically impossible and repetition wont make that claim any more true. There are many implementations that would enable this: short rests taking place at base camp, dialogues during short rests taking place at base camp, dialogues during short rests happening in the main world, dialogues during short rests happening in their own short rest pocket dimension, etc. Each solution would require some amount of work from Larian, but work does not equate to impossibility.

Also, the goal is to *untie* dialogues from anything. You should be able to talk to your companions nearly everywhere, without having to commit to take a long or a short rest.

Shoot. Untying dialogue from all rests would be most ideal, but that is only true for dialogues that make sense. I mean, SH saying, "I'm not sure this is a good idea," only makes sense when you rest at the very beginning when you believe you're going to turn into a mind flayer minion in hours after infection. Gale's Mirror Image dialogue also only really makes sense after hours of adventure have gone by.

Some, however, don't need to be tied to any rest.

Anyway, at least tying those rest dialogues to both long and short would ensure players experience them as opposed to just LR. Gale's Mirror Image dialogue doesn't really make sense after you meet Nettie, so having dialogue triggered by all rests would more likely trigger this before then - and the Go To Hell one too.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Short Rest Poll - 12/06/22 10:28 PM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Oh. Was I trying to convince you?
By your own words ... yes, you were.

Originally Posted by GM4Him
Didn't know you were Larian.
Should i mention that Larian is not "a person" ? laugh
Or will we just accept the fact that person dont need to work for one and only one company in the world to use their brain? :-/

Originally Posted by GM4Him
Is it? Did you actually prove it's impossible? Do you really know? I wasn't aware you were Larian.
Yes ...

Depends ... i explained it, that should surfice ... how exactly do you imagine proof of impossibility? Since to me it sounds like an oxymoron. O_o

Yes i do ... and you would too, if you would actualy read at least once what i say to you instead of flexing on me for "not being Larian" ... seriously who are you trying to impress? -_-

Originally Posted by GM4Him
2 SRs mean you'll SR less and LR more.
And infinite SR restricted by additional resource mean what?

I sudently forgot that i can easily LR litteraly any time or place i want and get all effect os SR and some other aswell? O_o

Originally Posted by GM4Him
By controlling it with HD, you can SR more than 2 times per day with various party members. Has Gale used all his HD? Switch him out and bring in Wyll. Adventure continues. Same day. Adventure day extended.
You get exactly the same result by simply adding another SR ...

And still, LR would be more proffitable for you ... why would you switch Gale out for Wyll, since to do that you must still go to the camp, talk to Gale, ask him to wait for you, talk to Wyll, ask him to join you, leave camp ...
Isnt like ten times easier to simply click on that stupid fire and rest, since you are allready there? laugh

---

Originally Posted by mrfuji3
This is nowhere near mechanically impossible
The sentence was shortened ...
Right now you judge an article based on the title. :-/

Lets see:
short rests taking place at base camp
people are allready complaining about "coveniently teleporting to/from camp in order to rest" ... cant imagine they would be okey with teleporting thrice as much

dialogues during short rests taking place at base camp
your problem here is light, if you watch those cinematic conversations closely, you can find out they are lighted differently than regular world ... that means Larian would need to create every conversation at least twice (once for Night, and once for Day)
I mean ... do you remember when they showed us minicamps for the first time? Swen literaly told us that they had to rework every single conversation in order to make them work ... so every conversation, multiplied by every potential camp, multiplied by two for different day/night light.


dialogues during short rests happening in the main world
clipping problem ... you surely noticed that characters in our dialogues are moving, using gestures and sometimes are even casting ... if such things are not done on *exact* places, they can easily end up in the middle of the wall.

dialogues during short rests happening in their own short rest pocket dimension
this would actualy be mechanicaly possible ... but same problem as with first case

Originally Posted by mrfuji3
Each solution would require some amount of work from Larian, but work does not equate to impossibility.
It dont ... but what would be the point to repeat it whole for person who simply say "i no longer care" when you do ...
Just to starts exactly the same false arguments in other topic few days later?

Thats why i just repeat "not possible" since that reflects amount of energy im willing to invest to this topic, until i see at least some spark of will to actualy read responces.

Originally Posted by mrfuji3
Also, the goal is to *untie* dialogues from anything. You should be able to talk to your companions nearly everywhere, without having to commit to take a long or a short rest.
Your goal maybe ...
I like those cinematic conversations and i would find it a shame to loose them ...
Even tho "in general" i agree to some extend ...

First step in my opinion would be to *untie* dialogues in camp from each other ... call me old fashioned, but i see no reason why our camp have limit to only one drama per night ... on the contrary, it would work much better if we would be able to trigger several conversations at once ...
So my Tav would be able to channel Weave with Gale the same night, as she argues with Wyll that she killed the goblins from windmyll without him, as she is visited by Raphael, and as she is much later almost bitten by Astarion.
Why not? laugh Isnt that much better than trigger last one, and everything else will be erased? :-/

As for the conversations out of the camp ...
Some small chitchat on the road? Why not.
I would certainly welcome some kind of "I would like to talk with you at the camp, when you have time".
I mean ... kinda any dialogue can happen out of camp, but to make it look good, you would need your character to well, prefferably dont move at all. :-/
But dialogues like Astarion watching stars, Gale watching his own image, or teach you to channel a weave, ... i admit i dont remember much more, it has ben some time since i played it last time and now i wait for patch. :-/
Anyway scenes like theese are ment for camp.
And from mechanical perspective, they have to be done in camp ... bcs characters are moving ... so their space litteraly HAVE TO be prepared for that.

---

Originally Posted by GM4Him
Some, however, don't need to be tied to any rest.
I cant think about even single one ...
How about some example?
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Short Rest Poll - 12/06/22 11:33 PM
Look. Here's the difference between 2 SRs per day that heal half health and Hit Dice SR implementation.

2 SRs per day. MC, Lae, Wyll and SH as party. SH gets badly hurt and uses half spell slots. Lae is also badly hurt. MC and Wyll, not so bad. Only maybe 5 HP each lost. Wyll used all spell slots. Use SR. Lae and SH heal half health. Use potions to heal the rest. MC and Wyll are now full. Wyll gets spell slots back.

Another battle. Everyone is really hurt. Half health gone for everyone. SR. Full health all. SH no spells left. Same with Wyll, but Wyll gets his back.

Another battle. Wyll really hurt. SH really hurt. Lae really hurt. MC okay. No more SRs left. Well. Guess I'll end day. What choice do I have?

Now, HD instead, but same basic scenario. First SR. SH uses 2 HD and heals a total of 1d8+Con bonus per HD used. She heals half health. Lae gets 1d10+Con. She heals roughly half health, also using 2HD. MC uses 0 HD. Why bother? Same with Wyll. Everything else is the same.

Second SR. Everyone uses 2 HD. SH is out. Lae is out. MC and Wyll still have 2HD. Everything else is the same.

After the 3rd battle, player decides that MC is okay. Uses 1 HD and can continue. Wyll uses 2 HD and can continue. Lae is out of HD, but she restores Second Wind. After SR, she can use Second Wind and heal. Player uses 3 SRs in a row to heal Lae up more using Second Wind. Lae can continue, which is a benefit of being a Fighter. Player switches out SH for Astarion. Now the player can continue the adventure. Same day.

Later. Another fight. 2 SR are used. Player switches Wyll out for Gale. Adventure continues same day.

This is the choice players now have, and the adventure can continue longer each day.

Now, add companion dialogues to a few of these SRs, because I don't think Ragnarok knows what they're talking about, and they need to untie a lot of dialogue from long rest anyway because it's a bad game design, and viola. Rest mechanics are more intelligent and strategic and provide a better player experience.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Short Rest Poll - 13/06/22 02:38 AM
@Rag

I was not trying to convince you. I was explaining. There's a difference.

Yeeeess. I know Larian is not one person. What does that have to do with anything. Are you actually saying you work for Larian and have inside info? You KNOW they can't tie dialogues to short rests too? Or, are you just insulting me again and saying I'm stupid and have no brain?

But you're not hostile. Noooo.

As for impress... What makes you think I care to impress anyone. I've told you time and again what my motive is. I have ALWAYS - since Day 1 when I first posted - only ever wanted to be apart of the magic of helping to create a good game. This was my first EA, and it inspired me to be apart of Solasta's EA. Then people were absolute butt sucks on Steam so I came here only to be treated like dirt here too. It's been so fun. I think I shall never do it again.

But still, I post. Partially because there is still a small hope they'll listen and partially because I'm bored. CERTAINLY not to impress.

As for the rest, I don't have time to respond. Why? Because you picked apart everything I said, AGAIN, all the while insulting me. So, I won't waste anymore time. Why should I? You'll just pick that apart too - line by freaking line.
Posted By: Rhobar121 Re: Short Rest Poll - 13/06/22 02:43 AM
But what for? At this point, after two rests, you might as well use LR.
Such an extending the day is completely pointless.
For now, you should be able to play 1-2 fights without any problems and then rest. This is how the game is designed (at least at this difficulty level).
When the game comes out it will probably be 1 LR per fight on the highest difficulty or 3-4 on normal.
I bet on the story that you will be able to complete the first act without a single rest.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Short Rest Poll - 13/06/22 05:15 AM
Originally Posted by Rhobar121
But what for? At this point, after two rests, you might as well use LR.
Such an extending the day is completely pointless.
For now, you should be able to play 1-2 fights without any problems and then rest. This is how the game is designed (at least at this difficulty level).
When the game comes out it will probably be 1 LR per fight on the highest difficulty or 3-4 on normal.
I bet on the story that you will be able to complete the first act without a single rest.

But for what? You know. People sometimes complain about my lengthy posts, but then I get responses like this and wind up repeating the same exact thing in even greater lengths to try to explain why to someone like you - AGAIN.

Like with Rags, I'm done. You're not the ones I'm looking to convince.

Larian, PLEASE. I've listed all the reasons why and for what like a thousand times. Fine. Rhobar and robertthebard and Ragnarok and Icelyn don't get it. They don't want you to change it. I do. Want my reasons? Please go back and read them. Trust me. It's all been said. It would work. It would work well. Just please try it for the sake of many of us who want something better than what is currently implemented.

1-2 fights per day is not acceptable when you have that nasty, creepy, MIND FLAYER tadpole in your head. Especially on Day 1 when anyone who knows anything about mind flayers would think they only have literal hours to live, forcing players to only SR twice a day is not acceptable. Forcing players to use a quick heal button press even when only half the party needs it is also so much less valuable than using the hit dice system.

Please Larian! For the love of all that is good. Save us true adventurers from being forced to long rest so much while we have MONSTERS in our skulls.
Posted By: Rhobar121 Re: Short Rest Poll - 13/06/22 06:35 AM
So what if a tadpole? It is a computer game and they have their rights.
You write as if it were some unusual rare problem, not something that exists in virtually every game and is obvious to virtually every player. It has always been this way, and if it is otherwise, there are individual exceptions. If the game tells you that the big bad guy is about to destroy the world and you need to hurry up. Then you might as well go to the field to collect cabbage for the farmer, the bad guy will wait.
The lapse of time and rush in the games has always been and will be contractual.
It was literally the same with rest. In how many crpg games does this make any real difference?
In BG1 and BG2, there were no consequences of frequent rest for the main quests. In side quests, they hardly existed. It was the same with IWD or NWN.
In newer titles, the only game that really had any limitations is Kingsmaker, but here again it turned out to be a mistake and in such WOTR the limitations practically do not exist.

Do you want time to matter? Your choice, but that doesn't mean people will agree with you.
If you don't want discussion, nobody forces you to.
Posted By: Maximuuus Re: Short Rest Poll - 13/06/22 07:11 AM
I'm not sure more SR/day would really makes them more meaningfull compared to LR. As Rhobar said, it would just extend the day with a few more free heal which as is doesn't look appealing to me.
That said there's no point to limit short rest to 2 /day in my opinion and Rhobar had also given a good solution we've already talked about for camp events : a queue, and each event trigger one LR after the other.

Hit dices would give players a lot of control on their days. If we could SR as long as we have hit dices, players could just CHOOSE and manage their hit dices according to their preferences.
This is just a perfect solution.

- Icelyn could still rest after every combat to burn his ennemies with all his spellslots at every combats.
- Ragna could still use half his hit dices (more or less what we have now) before going further.
- Rhobar could use most of his Hit Dices to be fully healed after one short rest before going further.
- And I could really try to manage my hit dices as much as my spellslots to long rest when I feel that I don't have any other solution left.

With a "auto heal" convenient button it would at worst be only one more click than now with a full control possible for everyone.

But I've probably already given my arguments it in this 12-page thread that nobody at Larian reads anymore.
Posted By: Gray Ghost Re: Short Rest Poll - 13/06/22 07:19 AM
I think using hit die for short rests is the better way to go. Setting aside the time issue, it just gives players way more control. If you want to heal up partof your party but one character isn't hurt badly, you can just not use their hit dice. It's also, as GM has said, important for classes that recover resources with short rests. Otherwise that takes a way a lot of what makes them useful.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Short Rest Poll - 13/06/22 08:07 AM
Originally Posted by Rhobar121
So what if a tadpole? It is a computer game and they have their rights.
You write as if it were some unusual rare problem, not something that exists in virtually every game and is obvious to virtually every player. It has always been this way, and if it is otherwise, there are individual exceptions. If the game tells you that the big bad guy is about to destroy the world and you need to hurry up. Then you might as well go to the field to collect cabbage for the farmer, the bad guy will wait.
The lapse of time and rush in the games has always been and will be contractual.
It was literally the same with rest. In how many crpg games does this make any real difference?
In BG1 and BG2, there were no consequences of frequent rest for the main quests. In side quests, they hardly existed. It was the same with IWD or NWN.
In newer titles, the only game that really had any limitations is Kingsmaker, but here again it turned out to be a mistake and in such WOTR the limitations practically do not exist.

Do you want time to matter? Your choice, but that doesn't mean people will agree with you.
If you don't want discussion, nobody forces you to.

I don't mind discussions. I don't like arguments with people constantly arguing over and over trying to convince one another endlessly over the same exact stuff as if I convinced you it would somehow change the game.

Now, to your point above. Yes. Many MANY games are like this. Enemies are invading but you go out and pull weeds. A moon is crashing into the world, but you go chase chickens.

And, do you know what? I thought that was dumb in those games too.

But what I don't like in BG3 is that from the moment I start to play it, I'm immersed like I always wanted to be in an RPG - which is YAY Larian. Finally! Someone has created a really awesome, immersive game - WAIT! No. Sorry. While I was ROLEPLAYING as a person with a monster tadpole in my head, really suspending the realities of RL and living in the BG3 world, they decided to suspend the reality of BG3 and throw me back into "ah. This is just a video game after all" reality by making it so that you have to long rest frequently because you have no other options if you want to continue - even though a long rest makes no sense from a story perspective in the early game.

I'm all freaking out. Gotta not turn into a mind flayer. Gotta find a healer. 3 intellect devourers. Nearly kill me and SH because 2 level 1 characters against even 1 Devourer is insane. Even 3 nerfed ones is pretty hard if you don't know what's coming or how to best kill them. My wife played for the first time and ran right up to them because she was a fighter who sucks at ranged. She was taken down in one round.

So to heck with the fact that after only a few hours you essentially die as a person when infected by a mind flayer. I have few potions at that point and I almost died and SH used all her spell slots. Guess I'll LR because I will never make it otherwise. And so, total immersion killed, right at the beginning.

That's why it bugs me. Bad encounter design and resting mechanics kill immersion. You may be content with video game shinanigans, but for once I'd REALLY like to see a game developer create a real, immersive, video game RPG where you can create your character and NOT have to reload or rest A LOT. I'd like someone to build good encounters and make healing and restoration of abilities well.

And, just for the record, I have also said a number of times that I don't like NWN resting at all, but I'd rather have that than what we have currently in BG3. Just let me take a knee and move on. That's at least more immersive than me waking up, jogging 2 minutes, fighting a group of goblins, and having my companions say, "Let's call it a day."

And also for the record, at least the old games tried to limit resting via random encounters and the fact that you had to manually walk back to a safe location. It made you want to try to keep going until you completed an area because you didn't want to have to boring;y go back to the nearest town. It was WAY more immersive than BG3.

Ah. But here I am again rehashing the same stuff I said 10000000 times.

And Max. I think we're saying the same thing mostly. I don't want just more quick heal SRs. I want Hit Dice like Solasta. Easy to use, but I'm in control of healing. If I need to use my HD after 4 SRs to heal Lae, but she didn't need them during any of the previous SRs, I can save her HD for when she needs it. With this current system, Lae is stuck healing with everyone else only twice per day without any choice. Too bad you didn't need it. It's wasted, Lae. Sorry.

As for dialogues, again, think of the dialogues. Which ones make sense only at camp, only at night vs. during the day? Some only make sense at camp during an LR, like Raphael or the Dream Lover. Some make no sense after awhile, like Shadowheart's "I don't think it's a good idea" speech. It only makes sense if you rest right away. Same with Gale's Mirror Image dialogue because he discusses with you that you haven't started to turn yet even though the appropriate time has passed.

Once you've reached Nettie, both dialogues seem stupid and out of place. If you reach Nettie without LRing once, those dialogues shouldn't trigger. So, what could make it more likely that you would still trigger them, and it still makes sense? Tie them to short rest especially if you make short rest a much more promoted mechanic. If you SR more than twice per day, especially in the beginning when you think time is of the essence, you'll more likely see all of those dialogues.
Posted By: Maximuuus Re: Short Rest Poll - 13/06/22 08:22 AM
If Mrfuji is right when he said that it's not impossible to tie dialogs to short rests, I agree with Ragna that it's VERY complicated (he also wrote "impossible" but whatever).

Larian handcraft all dialogs. You can see it in exemple when there is a yellow ! uppon Wyll's head in a mini camp.
When you talk to him, Wyll is not exactly at the same position he was before and the light is a bit different. This mean than one artist at Larian had created this scene entirely.
Is that a good way of doing things ? I absolutely don't think so, but that's how it works and it means that it would be very complicated to tie companions dialogs to "anywhere in the world".

But there's a very limited number of dialogs that triggered as soon as you enter the camp. All others are triggered when you click the NPCs with the yellow !
It shouldnt be too complicated to allow 1 "auto dialog" from the "auto dialog queue" per long rest + 1 "! dialog" per character per long rest if those dialogs are unlocked.

The camp would feel more alive, and the game wouldn't "force" you anymore to long rest very often not to miss content.

On top of that with 1 or 2 "dialogues queue" they could also probably untie dialogs from mini camps, which is important for my "how to improve the resting system" suggestion wink
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Short Rest Poll - 13/06/22 10:42 AM
@mrfuji3
See what i was talking about?
There was no point in investing more energy into this ...

---

Originally Posted by GM4Him
Here's the difference between 2 SRs per day that heal half health and Hit Dice SR implementation.
Great ... except nobody asked ...

The questions were:
1) What would be difference between "more than 2" Short Rests ... and Hit Dices ...
2) How would Hit Dices encourage people to Short Rest, rather than Long ...

And since you are not willing to answer, let me make it easier for you:
1) None
2) Not at all

Originally Posted by GM4Him
Guess I'll end day. What choice do I have?
Well ... potions, scrolls, consumables, other characters that are in camp and still have all slots aviable
(yup that means Gale, since Wizards can learn Cleric spells and heal your party ... i know you dislike it and i do aswell, but you asked for options and no matter how unpopular, this IS an option)
... or if you wish to be ESPECIALY gamey, you can jump with each companion (separately) out of cliff and heal them through talkative Skelleton. laugh

Quite honestly i cant really grip the idea of such scenario tho ...
I thought immersion is important for you ... twice per day your party gets almost killed, or to use your own words they are "badly hurt" ... and yet you demand to keep going? O_o
Where did that immersion go?

Originally Posted by GM4Him
This is the choice players now have, and the adventure can continue longer each day.
Yes, they have more Short Rests ...
Meaning ... just as i said ... giving players more short rests would have exactly the same result.

Originally Posted by GM4Him
1-2 fights per day is not acceptable when you have that nasty, creepy, MIND FLAYER tadpole in your head. Especially on Day 1 when anyone who knows anything about mind flayers would think they only have literal hours to live
I could once again ask where is your precious immersion ...
But there is something even funnier:

Acording to this ... or this ... even tho second source give us a more vague description, wich would provide us a little more time. smile
Anyway ... acording to those sources, our character would be "beyond any help" aproximately by the time they get out of Avernus. laugh
Maaaaybe around that time we arive to the Grove ...

Nevertheless even if we ignore length of both those travels ... it doesnt really matter ...
Bcs first Short Rest (wich by the rules takes "at least an hour") and we would allready be "beyond redemption" ...

So, to use GM4Him's own words:
"When anyone who knows anything about mind flayers would" immediately recognize that something is certainly off, and normal rules dont apply to our case. smile

(Its funny bcs the person who would panic and search for the help no matter what would actualy need to be person who DONT know anything about Mind Flayers. laugh )

Originally Posted by GM4Him
forcing players to only SR twice a day is not acceptable.
Agreed ...
Thank Gods, Larian dont do that. :3

---

Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Rhobar had also given a good solution we've already talked about for camp events : a queue, and each event trigger one LR after the other.
I still dont see why cant we have events with multiple companions in single night ...

But i guess even this would be better compared to what we have now. frown

Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Hit dices would give players a lot of control on their days. If we could SR as long as we have hit dices, players could just CHOOSE and manage their hit dices according to their preferences.
This is just a perfect solution.
When you put it that way, it certainly sounds more appealing. laugh

But still ...
Im just not quite sure if that is a good idea ...

Imagine party ... Battle Master, Warlock, Rogue and Moon Druid ...
Everyone gets resources (except Druid he gets only Wild Shapes ... on the other hand thats often all he need) replenished via Short rest ...
And they will use exactly single Hit Dice after every combat (for first one Fighter uses one, after next battle Warlock uses one, after another Rogue uses one, after another Druid uses one, etc. ) ... so their resources are back, since they just rested ... the rest they heal via potions and scrolls ...

And they would end up with i dunno how much Short Rests per day to be honest (since i honestly dont know how much you have and i dont want to search for it now) ... but right now allready double the count we have now. O_o

Now remember that Long Rest is by the rules "at least" 8 Hours of resting ...
And Short Rest is by the same rules "at least" an Hour ...
If each of them would have at least 4 hit dices to spend and they would spend it one-by-one ... they would spend 24 hours resting. laugh laugh laugh

So im sory but i still concider giving us 3 or 4 Short Rests to be better option. :-/
Its easier, its working just as good, and it dont bare a risk of breaking the rules once again.

Quite honestly even that older idea with unlimited Short Rests that would consume food seemed better ...

---

Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
If you want to heal up partof your party but one character isn't hurt badly, you can just not use their hit dice.
That is true ... but why do you mind?
Yes, your characters who were not hurt are now just as healthy as they were ... but ... i just have to ask: So what? laugh

I mean i could understand you would mind if you would need to spend some kind of resources to heal person with full HP ... but you dont. O_o

Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
It's also, as GM has said, important for classes that recover resources with short rests. Otherwise that takes a way a lot of what makes them useful.
This part is sadly not true ...
Since what "takes away a lot of what makes them useful" is the fact that Long Rest have no restrictions ...
And it would still have no restrictions no matter if we will consume our food for Short Resting, use our Hit Dices for Short Resting, simply click on covenient button that will have 2/3/4/5/1.000.000 lights on it representing amount of our remaining Short Rests ...

All that it change is that people who dont "want" to Long Rest will have another alternative to heal their group except for potions, scrolls, etc.
Nothing more.

---

Originally Posted by GM4Him
by making it so that you have to long rest frequently because you have no other options if you want to continue
Well this is just straight lie. :-/

Originally Posted by GM4Him
3 intellect devourers. Nearly kill me and SH because 2 level 1 characters against even 1 Devourer is insane. Even 3 nerfed ones is pretty hard if you don't know what's coming or how to best kill them. My wife played for the first time and ran right up to them because she was a fighter who sucks at ranged. She was taken down in one round.
Maybe she should have listen to Shadowheart who were yelling at her "better keep your distance, single strike could be lethal" ... hey, who would say it ... it WAS lethal. laugh

Originally Posted by GM4Him
So to heck with the fact that after only a few hours you essentially die as a person when infected by a mind flayer.
Yeah, that is exactly sou say "allready a few hours after the tadpole insertion" ...
I mean, i know you have nasty habbit to ignore the whole Nautiloid (tutorial) part ... but since you want to me immersed so hard, lets remind it once again. wink

Originally Posted by GM4Him
Guess I'll LR because I will never make it otherwise.
Or ... you could have continue and by mere seconds later double your chances to survive by joining with Astarion and Gale ...
Dont get me wrong, i know you "didnt know that" in your first playthrough ... but what you did know was that you were allready aware of enemies before combat started, so you could presume it would be the same later, so you could decide to at least scout ahead ... and yet you made a decision (go Long Rest) and it was bad one ...
Larian didnt force you to do anything, it was your choice.

Originally Posted by GM4Him
Bad encounter design and resting mechanics kill immersion.
Funny part is what really kills your immersion is your outside-source informations from tabletop ... you simply cannot let go they are Intellect Devourers, and no matter they can be killed in litteraly 4 turns (thrust me i just checked laugh ) you keep describing them as "impossibly hardcore fight". smile

Originally Posted by GM4Him
jogging 2 minutes
/sigh ... -_-
Like jammed gramophone record. laugh

Originally Posted by GM4Him
But here I am again rehashing the same stuff I said 10000000 times.
And as far as i know you, you will "10000000 times" more. :P

---

Originally Posted by Maximuuus
If Mrfuji is right when he said that it's not impossible to tie dialogs to short rests, I agree with Ragna that it's VERY complicated (he also wrote "impossible" but whatever).
Yeah i didnt made myself very clear by using that word ...
Glad to see we understand each other tho, thats what i mean. ^_^

Originally Posted by Maximuuus
It shouldnt be too complicated to allow 1 "auto dialog" from the "auto dialog queue" per long rest + 1 "! dialog" per character per long rest if those dialogs are unlocked.

The camp would feel more alive, and the game wouldn't "force" you anymore to long rest very often not to miss content.
+1!
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Short Rest Poll - 13/06/22 11:25 AM
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
If Mrfuji is right when he said that it's not impossible to tie dialogs to short rests, I agree with Ragna that it's VERY complicated (he also wrote "impossible" but whatever).

Larian handcraft all dialogs. You can see it in exemple when there is a yellow ! uppon Wyll's head in a mini camp.
When you talk to him, Wyll is not exactly at the same position he was before and the light is a bit different. This mean than one artist at Larian had created this scene entirely.
Is that a good way of doing things ? I absolutely don't think so, but that's how it works and it means that it would be very complicated to tie companions dialogs to "anywhere in the world".

But there's a very limited number of dialogs that triggered as soon as you enter the camp. All others are triggered when you click the NPCs with the yellow !
It shouldnt be too complicated to allow 1 "auto dialog" from the "auto dialog queue" per long rest + 1 "! dialog" per character per long rest if those dialogs are unlocked.

The camp would feel more alive, and the game wouldn't "force" you anymore to long rest very often not to miss content.

On top of that with 1 or 2 "dialogues queue" they could also probably untie dialogs from mini camps, which is important for my "how to improve the resting system" suggestion wink

First. Let me say that that is why I suggested also that Short Rest takes you to camp. That way, you could still get the marks above the head and all dialogue such as that still occurs at camp so the hand crafted dialogues might need to be tweaked for lighting but that would be it.

Second, the queue doesn't necessarily work, and that's my point. Many dialogues don't make sense of done after certain other events, etc.

Imagine this. You don't long rest at all. You reach the Grove. You talk to Nettie, having found a healer. You long rest. The very first companion dialogue is queued up. SH says, "I don't think this is a good idea.". Implying taking time to rest. "We need to find a healer."

Um. SH. We found one. Remember? Nettie? Why you saying this?

The Gale's Mirror Image dialogue is triggered in queue. Um. Gale. Yeah. We know. Nettie even said we're not changing as fast as we should, and I already talked with Lae'zel about what happens when you transform. Day late. Dollar short.
Posted By: Sharet Re: Short Rest Poll - 13/06/22 11:52 AM
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
If Mrfuji is right when he said that it's not impossible to tie dialogs to short rests, I agree with Ragna that it's VERY complicated (he also wrote "impossible" but whatever).

Larian handcraft all dialogs. You can see it in exemple when there is a yellow ! uppon Wyll's head in a mini camp.
When you talk to him, Wyll is not exactly at the same position he was before and the light is a bit different. This mean than one artist at Larian had created this scene entirely.
Is that a good way of doing things ? I absolutely don't think so, but that's how it works and it means that it would be very complicated to tie companions dialogs to "anywhere in the world".

But there's a very limited number of dialogs that triggered as soon as you enter the camp. All others are triggered when you click the NPCs with the yellow !
It shouldnt be too complicated to allow 1 "auto dialog" from the "auto dialog queue" per long rest + 1 "! dialog" per character per long rest if those dialogs are unlocked.

The camp would feel more alive, and the game wouldn't "force" you anymore to long rest very often not to miss content.

On top of that with 1 or 2 "dialogues queue" they could also probably untie dialogs from mini camps, which is important for my "how to improve the resting system" suggestion wink

I agree 100%, even if I think they should tie them anywhere in the world nonetheless, even if it means re-designing those dialogues from the start. In EA, if something doesn't work, you go back to the abc, is part of the iterative process, this is what EA is for.
Besides, unless some cinematic has interaction with something physically present at the camp, I don't think is going to be so hard for them to adjust the cinematics based on the location in which the party is at the triggering event.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Short Rest Poll - 13/06/22 01:17 PM
Thinking about it ...
It actualy would be possible to move every single conversation out of camp ... but it would need to be exactly jus that "a conversation" ... rather than whole cinematic-like scene.

It would also require some cuts and re-writing ... so im not sure if that would even be worth it. :-/

But think with me ...
Larian would need to create 2 versions of every "!" dialogue ... one for incamp, wich we allready know ... and one for outdoors, where Companion would just stand there and talk to our PC, just as they do every time we talk to them.

It would ofc. mean that every gestures, walking, or simmilar stuff would need to be cut out ... aswell as mentioning things icluding those ...
BUT the main body of information we are suppose to get could technicaly stay intact.

Take Astarion's mirror as an example:
In camp we all know how the scene goes, yes?
if not ... here
And in wild ... if they would cut out that mirror part, and the conversation would just start bcs "Astarion seems unusualy gloomy" ... basicaly all the rest can remain intact.

Or controlling the Weave with Gale ... that is scene i never managed to trigger:
In camp we all know how the scene goes, yes?
if not ... here
And in wild ... just leave it theoretical, Gale would not walk around us and showing us gestures and stuff (mainly to prevent clipping issues) ... he would just talk about what "would" he do, if he would want to show us how to channel the Weave.
And it could open dialogue in camp later something like "You remember how we were talking about magic earlier? Would you like to try some?"

Its certainly not the most elegant solution ...
But it could work to give players as much of those conversations as possible, and it would most certainly be MUCH better than just miss them whole. frown
Posted By: robertthebard Re: Short Rest Poll - 13/06/22 02:00 PM
Originally Posted by mrfuji3
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Tying dialogues to Short Rest is mechanicaly impossible ... i thought we are allready beyond that, since it was repeated at least dozen times. O_o
No. This is nowhere near mechanically impossible and repetition wont make that claim any more true. There are many implementations that would enable this: short rests taking place at base camp, dialogues during short rests taking place at base camp, dialogues during short rests happening in the main world, dialogues during short rests happening in their own short rest pocket dimension, etc. Each solution would require some amount of work from Larian, but work does not equate to impossibility.

Also, the goal is to *untie* dialogues from anything. You should be able to talk to your companions nearly everywhere, without having to commit to take a long or a short rest.

Except that people were complaining that LRs take you back to camp. That's why we have the new camp stages we have now. As to whether or not it's impossible, I can't say, as I don't know how this engine handles stages in cutscenes, but in NWN, I could make a cutscene happen anywhere. It was definitely easier to have a set stage for the setstage commands, but I could work around it. I'm not talking about what others could do, or how easily, I'm simply relating my own experience with the Aurora Engine.

It's easy to get confused about this new goal of untying dialogs from resting, because I was initially told that I wasn't supposed to get every dialog in every playthrough, even though that wasn't what I was talking about. Much like I was told in this thread that it takes longer than 2 or 3 minutes to talk to Shadowheart, even though I never said how long doing x or y would take. It's a fairly surefire way to lock out dissention to an idea though, because a lot of people will see someone deliberately misrepresent them, and just quit posting. It's like "there's not a lot of micro-management required", even though you have to go through every active character to decide whether or not you're using HD for this SR or not, every time you SR. If that seems off to anyone, then you'll understand why I just shook my head and moved on to other things. It's not because an argument that is the equivalent of "nope, you'll just have to micro-manage HD every time" convinced me, it's that I'm convinced that the poster is so sold on the idea that they're willing resort to logical fallacies to support it. Think the Wizard of Oz, when Dorothy is told to "ignore the man behind the curtain" even though the man behind the curtain is the Wizard.
Posted By: Gray Ghost Re: Short Rest Poll - 13/06/22 02:09 PM
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
If you want to heal up partof your party but one character isn't hurt badly, you can just not use their hit dice.
That is true ... but why do you mind?
Yes, your characters who were not hurt are now just as healthy as they were ... but ... i just have to ask: So what? laugh

I mean i could understand you would mind if you would need to spend some kind of resources to heal person with full HP ... but you dont. O_o

My reasoning here is that you never have to waste a rest, as it were. Like if you're out of potions and half your party is fine, but half of them are near dead, then you can just heal the ones you want and the ones that don't need healing don't use hit dice. So you're able to short rest more often overall since you can actually ration out healing more intentionally.

And honestly, I don't really "mind" per se. I think the current system is flawed, but the only aspect of it I'm truly firm about regarding the opinion that "this needs to change because it meaningfully detracts from the game" is the way dialogues are tied to long rests. Beyond that, any other changes to the system would really just be polish in my opinion. I'm bummed that Warlocks and Monks (two of my favorite classes) will be made less useful as a result, but that's what story difficulty is for I suppose. And really, I don't actually know the system well enough to fully understand the flaws and such as I'm playing anyway.
Posted By: mrfuji3 Re: Short Rest Poll - 13/06/22 02:15 PM
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
If Mrfuji is right when he said that it's not impossible to tie dialogs to short rests, I agree with Ragna that it's VERY complicated (he also wrote "impossible" but whatever).

Larian handcraft all dialogs. You can see it in exemple when there is a yellow ! uppon Wyll's head in a mini camp.
When you talk to him, Wyll is not exactly at the same position he was before and the light is a bit different. This mean than one artist at Larian had created this scene entirely.
Is that a good way of doing things ? I absolutely don't think so, but that's how it works and it means that it would be very complicated to tie companions dialogs to "anywhere in the world". [...]
I agree with everything you said, but my feedback is still: this way of designing cutscenes is extremely limiting, and Larian should reconsider doing it this way for any cutscenes they haven't yet designed. Possibly even redesign cutscenes they've already done.

If Larian is unwilling to do this, then at the very least they should untie cutscenes from LRs. Since you explicitly called me back to the conversation @Rag:
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Lets see:
short rests taking place at base camp
people are allready complaining about "coveniently teleporting to/from camp in order to rest" ... cant imagine they would be okey with teleporting thrice as much
Me. I'd be okay with this. In fact, I'd be happier teleporting thrice as much if it meant that dialogues could also happen during SRs. The fact that the game gates content behind frequent long resting is one of my biggest critiques.

Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
dialogues during short rests taking place at base camp
your problem here is light, if you watch those cinematic conversations closely, you can find out they are lighted differently than regular world ... that means Larian would need to create every conversation at least twice (once for Night, and once for Day)
I mean ... do you remember when they showed us minicamps for the first time? Swen literaly told us that they had to rework every single conversation in order to make them work ... so every conversation, multiplied by every potential camp, multiplied by two for different day/night light.
Evidence for why Larian's method of doing it is horribly inefficient. Design it in such a way that you can adjust a lighting slider depending on day vs night. Don't do the work twice: do more work up-front, so later it will be easy to change.

Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
dialogues during short rests happening in the main world
clipping problem ... you surely noticed that characters in our dialogues are moving, using gestures and sometimes are even casting ... if such things are not done on *exact* places, they can easily end up in the middle of the wall.
Larian is designing a AAA game, becoming a big-name studio. They should be expected to fix these types of problems.
Also, we can talk to NPCs (taking us into cutscenes) and NPCs move around in the world, changing their surroundings. This should be the same principle, no?
For Astarion's mirror scene, it seems like Larian could just copy-paste the character models into whatever background scenery is nearby? It's not like Astarion actually interacts with much of the scenery. I'm not asking for the scenery in main-world-dialogues to exactly match the real surroundings. It just has to be close enough.

Sure, some cutscenes as currently written are required to be at base camp during night. But others aren't. And cutscenes that haven't yet been made certainly don't have those restrictions.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Short Rest Poll - 13/06/22 02:19 PM
Edit: This was written while Mrfuji and Ghost responded, so it applies to what was said prior to his comments.

Sigh.

Guys. That's why I was saying SRs take you to camp and dialogues are attached to SRs also. Then the cinematics wouldn't have to be redone to some great length. They'd be more like lighting changes. It'd be no different than, and should be easier, than their mini-camp rework. Same dialogue. Same positions. Except instead of night for the dialogue, it could be redone for day. No other changes.

And that's why I'm saying that Hit Dice instead of the 2 per day SR limit works better. You can get in more SRs per day and thus would have more chances to trigger certain dialogues so you don't miss them. (I mean, besides all the other reasons I was suggesting HD limiting SRs.)

And again, some dialogues really don't work outside of camp. Astarion trying to bite you on the neck while you sleep wouldn't work except during LR. However, SH saying, "I don't think this is a good idea. We need to find a healer because we could turn at any second," DOES work outside of an LR but wouldn't work outside of camp. Why would she say this dialogue at all unless you are attempting to rest and she disapproves. But this dialogue doesn't make sense if it isn't triggered before you meet Nettie. So, it makes more sense to trigger dialogues also during SRs at camp so that you can trigger this dialogue more easily during the first little quest to get to the grove.

And HD is not micro-managing anything. You are convinced it's some complicated system that requires a lot of work. It's SUPER UBER easy. Not even remotely challenging. It's WAY easier to manage than the current item management nasty mess we have. WAY easier. I can't stress this enough.

And again, you don't waste an SR with HDs. You don't have situations where you really need to SR because Lae'zel is out of Action Surge and Second Wind and needs HP but Gale is full health and doesn't need healing. You can spend HD on Lae'zel and save Gale's HD for later. And how hard is it? Click Short Rest, click on one or two Hit Dice, roll and value are calculated instantly without animations and applied to the character, and you're done. Game keeps track of how many you spent so you don't have to. Next time you SR, you can see how many HD you have left per character, and YOU decide whether you spend them or not.

I'm just saying. It's not hard, it makes sense, would help fix the dialogue issues more easily than trying to rework them all so they CAN be outside of camp, gives more strategy and control to the player, extends the adventuring day, which makes sense from a story perspective, and SO Much more.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Short Rest Poll - 13/06/22 03:26 PM
Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
Like if you're out of potions
I see ...
This never happened to me. laugh

Actualy i usualy stash 20-50 potions in camp for "later use" to save some weight. laugh

---

Originally Posted by mrfuji3
Me. I'd be okay with this.
I understand.
Cant see i agree ... since Larian dont have this luxury in my opinion ... but i understand.

Originally Posted by mrfuji3
Evidence for why Larian's method of doing it is horribly inefficient.
That sounds a little harsh ...
Its inefficient just bcs we want to implement there something they never count with, i believe that should be taken under concideration. smile

Originally Posted by mrfuji3
They should be expected to fix these types of problems.
Im not claiming that im some überprogramator ... but i cant quite imagine how would you like to fix it. O_o

Originally Posted by mrfuji3
Also, we can talk to NPCs (taking us into cutscenes) and NPCs move around in the world, changing their surroundings. This should be the same principle, no?
Sadly ... no. frown Or at least not exactly.
Those NPCs we are talking to are moving on their stage, their conversations are created specificaly for the place where they are.

Imagine for example Gale and his Weave chanelling scene ...
In 1:50 cca ... Gale get around our protagonist behind her back ...
If he would try the same move just 5 metters to the right, he would walk litteraly through Wyll and his tent ...
Same goes for outside world unless whole space where Gale is moving during the exactly same scene is empty, he would simply walk through ... no matter if that would be rock, wall, or some living creature. laugh

You see unless something seriously changed since the last time i cared about modeling, we can see textures, but they dont exist in virtual space UNLESS characters are specificaly told they do (those are usualy just interactive objects, for saving processing power) ..
And i dare to believe this is the case in BG-3 since if you are using 6 party mod ... your characters are in many scenes standing in each other (litteraly).

Originally Posted by mrfuji3
For Astarion's mirror scene, it seems like Larian could just copy-paste the character models into whatever background scenery is nearby?
Well, yes and no ... changing background scenery certainly isnt any big problem.

Close objects is mostly what cause problems ...
He can start the scene with hand stuck into wall ... or with a branch growing through his head ... or with some other npc inside of him. laugh
That kind of stuff. smile

That is the reason why most characters you are allowed to talk "in the wilderness" dont actualy move a lot, and usualy dont even use any big gestures.
And that is rule in most games (at least those i know).

If you would really demand to copy this scene to "anywhere in the world" it would only work as it does with minicamp ... once the scene would start, you and the companion you are talking to would be "moved" to the stage prepared (hopefully nearby enough) and the scene would be happening on the stage.
Sadly, bcs Larian decided to focus on cinematic conversations so much as they do ... it would also mean re-create the same scene for every single possible stage in the world. :-/

Originally Posted by mrfuji3
Sure, some cutscenes as currently written are required to be at base camp during night. But others aren't. And cutscenes that haven't yet been made certainly don't have those restrictions.
Well i was more focused on the technical aspect ...
Story reasons should be quite obvious in my opinion. laugh
Posted By: Stabbey Re: Short Rest Poll - 13/06/22 04:14 PM
I think GM4Him's basic idea is a solid one. So essentially, the camp scenes should get a flag attached to them, which determines "Long Rest only", or "Any Rest", or "Any time". Long rest only scenes only trigger when starting a long rest. Long Rest Only scenes are those which only make sense in the context of a long rest. Any rest scenes trigger at the first short or long rest, they don't require a long rest, but can happen when the player triggers a short rest. "Any time" scenes are minor things which don't need a rest at all.

Then the Long Rest button is changed from "Start long rest" to "return to camp". Clicking it takes you to camp, but it does not start a long rest automatically. Instead, a long rest is triggered manually by interacting (with a confirmation prompt) with either the bedroll or the campfire. If there are scenes, they play at that time.

If the player hits the Short rest button, a menu pops up, they choose a number of hit dice to roll, what slots to recover for Arcane Recovery, change an attunement, and they're reminded what features to recover, and when they hit the "Start Short rest". The way Solasta does it is simple, elegant and any extra time it worth the functionality and level of control it provides to the player:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

If there is an "any rest" scene, the relevant party members are automatically transported to camp for the purposes of the scene. If there is no scene, the short rest can take place where they were on the map.

If there's an "any time" scene, when the player hits the Return to camp button, they're transported to camp and the scene automatically plays, and when they (manually) leave camp, they go back to where they were on the map.

Whenever a scene is unlocked, the "Return to camp" button gets a highlight or color change to indicate that there's a new scene to see.

This would uncouple many of the scenes from long resting, allow more flexibility in Short Rests, and make it easier to see some of the scenes which would otherwise get missed.
Posted By: mrfuji3 Re: Short Rest Poll - 13/06/22 04:31 PM
@Stabbey you summarized it well (credit to @GM4Him for the detailed idea), with the caveat that "any rest" scenes hopefully have modified lighting depending on whether you view them during day (short rest) vs night (long rest). This is probably the most basic fix that adequately addresses my concerns. Sure, it'd break some immersion by teleporting from short rest to camp for cutscenes, but it'd be well worth it imo.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Short Rest Poll - 13/06/22 06:13 PM
Thanks to Stabbey for explaining it in a different and better way with screenshots and all. Much appreciated

Glad you approve, Fuji.
Posted By: Maximuuus Re: Short Rest Poll - 13/06/22 06:51 PM
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Hit dices would give players a lot of control on their days. If we could SR as long as we have hit dices, players could just CHOOSE and manage their hit dices according to their preferences.
This is just a perfect solution.
When you put it that way, it certainly sounds more appealing. laugh

But still ...
Im just not quite sure if that is a good idea ...

Imagine party ... Battle Master, Warlock, Rogue and Moon Druid ...
Everyone gets resources (except Druid he gets only Wild Shapes ... on the other hand thats often all he need) replenished via Short rest ...
And they will use exactly single Hit Dice after every combat (for first one Fighter uses one, after next battle Warlock uses one, after another Rogue uses one, after another Druid uses one, etc. ) ... so their resources are back, since they just rested ... the rest they heal via potions and scrolls ...

Tbh I don't understand why it would be a problem.
You're just not ready for the "BG3 full playtrough in 1 IG day" challenge wink

Time won't ever really matter in the game so if your full day is 16 hours while mine is 32... it doesnt matter and none of us will even notice it.

Originally Posted by mrfuji3
I agree with everything you said, but my feedback is still: this way of designing cutscenes is extremely limiting, and Larian should reconsider doing it this way for any cutscenes they haven't yet designed

100% agree !
Lets at least remove cutscenes from minicamp so they can be physically added to the map and add notifications when someone has something to say in a main camp.
(Yellow ! on the portrait rather than uppon their head + "I'd like to talk with you in our camp")



@GM I'd absolutely hate that Short rests bring us back to camp tbh. Being teleported in pocket camps even more is not a good option to me. On top of that, it wouldn't make sense to me roleplay or immersion-wise to go back to camp to take a short rest. Gameplay-wise, we would just loose time for the sake of cutscenes (not a lot let's be honnest but whatever).

But I'm not trying to find another solution because I don't really understand the problem with the "queue".
What happen currently if you haven't long rest before meeting Nettie without seeing the cutscenes you're talking about ? Couldn't it remains the same ?
I'm not sure all companions have a lot of story-related (tadpole/healer/...) cutscenes. Most of them are related to their own stories.

I may definitely be wrong on this one (Patch 7 was a long time ago) but I'm not sure it would create huge issues... or at least bigger than what we can currently have.

On top of that, if it was clear that someone has something to say at camp... we could just choose to travel to camp rather than waiting for the next long rest.
Posted By: Stabbey Re: Short Rest Poll - 13/06/22 08:06 PM
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
@GM I'd absolutely hate that Short rests bring us back to camp tbh. Being teleported in pocket camps even more is not a good option to me. On top of that, it wouldn't make sense to me roleplay or immersion-wise to go back to camp to take a short rest. Gameplay-wise, we would just loose time for the sake of cutscenes (not a lot let's be honnest but whatever).

That's just being put forth as a quick fix in case there's some technical reason why the cutscenes would only work set at camp.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Short Rest Poll - 13/06/22 08:54 PM
Originally Posted by Stabbey
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
@GM I'd absolutely hate that Short rests bring us back to camp tbh. Being teleported in pocket camps even more is not a good option to me. On top of that, it wouldn't make sense to me roleplay or immersion-wise to go back to camp to take a short rest. Gameplay-wise, we would just loose time for the sake of cutscenes (not a lot let's be honnest but whatever).

That's just being put forth as a quick fix in case there's some technical reason why the cutscenes would only work set at camp.

Exactly. Honestly, I'd prefer if as many dialogues were able to be outside camp as possible. I'd love SRs to be done right smack dab where you trigger them, and they are unable to be triggered in certain dangerous locations - like directly under the phase spiders in the Whispering Depths. Dumbest thing I've ever seen - but if not, at least send us temporarily to camp for SR so they can be triggered via SR as well; not just LR, so we can make sure we're triggering as many dialogues as we can.

As for why the queue won't work, it really depends on the dialogue. I can't remember a lot of the dialogues off hand, which is why I kept using the SH and Gale beginning dialogues as examples. After meeting Nettie, those first few SH and Gale dialogues would make no sense and be weird. If you cut straight to Nettie, the game shouldn't trigger those initial dialogues because they only make sense if triggered before you meet Nettie. That's one of the big reasons why I think SR triggering dialogues would help make sure people see those dialogues that might be kinda weird if you wait until some future point to trigger them.

There are other dialogues like those early ones. If you don't trigger them in the right order or at the right time, they become weird. Some, I know, aren't that way, and I'm not referring to those. But there are others. I'd have to play the game again and carefully go through it to tell you which ones. I just remember there were actually some that triggered out of sequence, and they were really odd.
Posted By: Zarna Re: Short Rest Poll - 14/06/22 02:41 AM
I can't help but feel that all this debating would have been a non issue if they had simply added a proper in game clock with a day/night cycle. Long rest would be effective once per day (but could be taken at any time of day) and the number of short rests could possibly be varied according to game difficulty settings. Hit dice could be used or not, depending on each character's need.

Originally Posted by GM4Him
Honestly, I'd prefer if as many dialogues were able to be outside camp as possible.
This would be wonderful. If the distance we travel is supposedly so far (an in game clock would have helped with determining this) then having to go back to camp for a short rest would be extremely immersion breaking. They would have to add teleport circles for this to work. If we are stuck with having to have all conversations at camp with the current system then they just need to stay being done during a long rest.
Posted By: Maximuuus Re: Short Rest Poll - 14/06/22 06:07 AM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
I just remember there were actually some that triggered out of sequence, and they were really odd.

Ok so this is another problem that already exist and that you're suggesting to solve through SR.
I have to admit that I never really noticed big issues with cutscenes but I havent paid much attention for a while.

I still don't think that being teleported to camp when you short rest is a good solution and unfortunately, I dont think we'll have those cutscenes in the world... I'll try to pay more attention in my patch 8 playtrough to better understand what it could looks like with a queue.
Posted By: Rhobar121 Re: Short Rest Poll - 14/06/22 06:22 AM
Whoever has tried to do something more complicated with Unity (or any other engine) knows that the camera is often the most problematic aspect. The camera tends to be really weird. A camera stuck in textures or on an object is quite common. I think most people associate one of the most memical glitchy cameras from AC: U.
Therefore, static scenes are best, you can adjust the camera so that it does not coincide with other objects in the scene.
However, if you take the same camera angle and try to apply to some other scenery it will most likely end up badly. It can be a stone, a tree or even some existing but invisible object, as a result the camera will get stuck on some object or the whole cutscene will be at a strange angle.
The worst situation is definitely indoors.
Posted By: mr_planescapist Re: Short Rest Poll - 14/06/22 06:25 AM
Unlimited rest. Whats the point of rest? Make a instant rest button. ----->action rpg
Unlimited food. Whats the point of food? Make a EAT button with random buff. ----->action rpg
Unlimited potions. Whats the point of potions? Just auto restore all stats after a couple seconds. ----->action rpg
etc...
For me In an tactical RPG, LIMITS and scarcity creates fun, tactics and immersion.
Posted By: Rhobar121 Re: Short Rest Poll - 14/06/22 06:34 AM
I still think the queue is the best solution.
The fact that some cutscenes don't make sense at some point is not a real problem. How many such situations are there? Match 2 or at most 3 scenes that don't make sense when you get to a specific point. Is that really such a big problem? Rather, the players will survive it.
The advantage of this solution is that the player will be able to open it when he wants to without worrying about missing something if he does not rest every 2 steps.
At the same time, it also has a big plus for developers. Then they do not have to adjust the scenery depending on where the player is.
To sum up, this is literally one small downside and the profit from it is quite big for both Larian and the players.
Posted By: Rhobar121 Re: Short Rest Poll - 14/06/22 06:35 AM
Originally Posted by mr_planescapist
Unlimited rest. Whats the point of rest? Make a instant rest button. ----->action rpg
Unlimited food. Whats the point of food? Make a EAT button with random buff. ----->action rpg
Unlimited potions. Whats the point of potions? Just auto restore all stats after a couple seconds. ----->action rpg
etc...
For me In an tactical RPG, LIMITS and scarcity creates fun, tactics and immersion.

Do you know that at this point you are complaining about virtually every game from the infinity engine era?
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Short Rest Poll - 14/06/22 11:02 AM
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Originally Posted by GM4Him
I just remember there were actually some that triggered out of sequence, and they were really odd.

Ok so this is another problem that already exist and that you're suggesting to solve through SR.
I have to admit that I never really noticed big issues with cutscenes but I havent paid much attention for a while.

I still don't think that being teleported to camp when you short rest is a good solution and unfortunately, I dont think we'll have those cutscenes in the world... I'll try to pay more attention in my patch 8 playtrough to better understand what it could looks like with a queue.

I get it. I do. SR currently is a quick button press. I'm suggesting it become LR except without officially End Day. Go to camp, have dialogues...

Perhaps it's not the right solution. I just want them to make it so that we:

- Don't miss fun dialogues that help develop characters
- SR is promoted and made more intuitive so we use it more and LR less
- SR isn't a waste... Meaning use Hit Dice and make things like Arcane Recovery only available per SR like it should be

You know, and all the other stuff I said.
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