Do i understand you corectly?
[sarcasm]Well, that certainly helped me a lot in both determining where i made the misstake, and how should i read it to understand you better.[/sarcasm] :-/
Duh, every game map is an abstraction of what it is supposed to represent. A real life location would be uninteresting to play in.
Exactly my point ...
And yet there are people who keep claiming that ingame map is litteral transcription of the world. :-/
The question isn't: Could it work in real life? but: Does it work in the game - from gameplay perspective and/or supporting the story the game is attempting to convey.
And you have kindly provided the answer for it
Indeed i did ...
Even tho for *this* particular question my answer would be something more like: "Well enough."
I really dont believe we *need* map rework ... it wouldnt hurt tho ... :-/
Still, Larian asked people to buy the EA to give them feedback (and money, but I think they were genuinely asking for feedback), so, feedback I'm giving them, like any of us here. If I think a feature is bad for the game, I'm going to say it without ill intent, but because I really wish for the game to succeed. Larian can do whatever they like with my opinions
That is something i would call very healthy approach ...
Sadly some around here started to take it in whole another level. :-/
But lets not linger in that topic.
Because, even ignoring the "exploitable scapegoat" part of the problem, I know I have the power to do something that my character shouldn't be able to (teleport from anywhere) and that doesn't make sense with the IG lore.
Save and Load ... bothers you aswell?
Being able to move your camera around the corner to see there, while your characters are still hidden behind it ... bothers you aswell?
See all dialogue options and have option to pick the one that suits your intentions best, no matter what your character "would say" ... bothers you aswell?
I presume not.
And that is why i cant quite grasp the idea that one game mechanic is bad, and her very existence is bothering you, even if you would never ever ever ever and once more ever use it ... but all others you are willing to ignore without hesitation. O_o
How is that possible that your "immersion" is not broken by any of them? They all are fiting your description "having a power to do something that your character shouldn't be able to" after all.
If I'm paying 59+€ to play an RPG based in the forgotten realm I don't want to force myself not to use (bad) game features in order to have a coherent experience.
And here we are.
"Im a customer and i want ..."
Well, pal ... i also payd 59+€ ... if you really wish to use this parody of "argument".
And i dont want to deal with boring and tedious passages ... i buyed this game to have fun ... the difference is that while i dont care what you would do in your game, you demand change that would ruin mine ... why?
You see you are customer, so you have the luxury of saying "screw you" ... Larian cant do that, they (unless they wish to piss of really many people, wich isnt best strategy if you are leading a company) need to try find a way to satisfy us both.
Its easy with me, since im willing to ignore everything you find fun and dont screw my game ...
I really hope you can in time learn something simmilar.
It would be benefitial for everyone ... me, you and Larian.
And I'm not saying it like "it's my personal taste and I want it that way". I'm saying it because it's the foundation of what constitutes an RPG experience.
Sounds like you do ... just not straight forward, but hidden behind "it allways has ben like this" ...
I must be honest, seems to me that you are really trying to be provocative in your posts and I don't find it very nice, since it is dismissive of the other person's argument.
But maybe I'm reading it the wrong way and you have no ill intentions, in that case, I apologize.
Nah i dont try ... this goes naturaly with the way im usualy speaking, even in my language. :-/
In fact even if i actualy try, i never managed to get completely rid of it.
Seems like im just that kind of person, whatever that means.
All i can promise you is that if i would want to insult you, provoke you, or in any other way being agresive towards you ... i would do it straight forward.
That i best i can do with this.
or, at least, the developers should contemplate the possibility of changing it.
As i keep repeating and people keep ignoring ... as long as i can play the way i want, im happy Ragnarok and i dont give a shit about anything (nor anyone) else.
Im totally selfish being and im not ashamed to admit it. :P
And there is no arguing about the fact that fast travelling anywhere, in BG3, is an immersion-breaking feature for many people (this thread has plenty of them), even if one chooses not to use it.
Well ... "no arguing" ... i would not go that far.
Especialy since even claiming that there is "many" people is arguable itself ... sure, there are some in this topic, but if you count them, how many would you get ... 5? 10? even if 20 (wich i doubt) that is hardly something you can call "many" in context of whole millions of players.
Plus (and i think this is really important) we should keep in ming that Larian actualy HAVE data from all people who decided to share them ... so they know MUCH better than us "how many" people actualy uses this feature ... no matter how "immersion breaking" it can be for "some" of them.
(Some, since as i stated ... it dont breaks immersion for me ... so we know for sure its claim not aplicable for everyone.
And quite honestly ... if *i* would work for Larian ...
And i would have this topic on one hand, where (lets exaggerate a bit) 100 (or even a 10 000 if you want to exaggerate a lot) people are arguing that fast travel from anywhere is dumm, ugly, stupid, horrible, immersion-breaking, worse mechanic ever "no arguing about" ...
And then i would look to my other hand where i would get result from database and i would see that 17.479.135 people used it regulary ...
I know exactly wich group i would call "many". :-/
I played dozens of RPGs, Action RPGs and cRPGs
I believe we all did.
Not as if it should have any relevance tho.
Not to mention that I think no one is asking to remove fast travel completely, just to make it coherent with the in-game lore and balanced in terms of mechanics, which basically translates in "make fast travel unavailable in enemy territory" or in "make fast travel only available if you touch a portal" if we want to be coherent with the worldbuilding.
I also never said that someone asked to remove fast travel completely (even tho i believe i have seen such opinion in the past ... not sure if that was here or reddit tho) ... so, while you are completely right ... im affraid we are all on same boat at this one.
Lets look at those examples you used ...
- Enemy territory ...
> Goblin camp:
Honestly with this one, its much more immersion breaking for me that this even become enemy teritory.
I mean just few seconds back i was drinking, eating, laughting with goblins and playing their stupid primitive chicken chasing game ...
Then i killed one of their leader (Gut) ... quietly and without a witnesses ofc ... and i was still able to drink, eat, laugh, and chase the chicken ...
Then i killed another one of their leader (Minthara) ... not as quietly as the first one, but as old Assassin rule say "nobody will notice if there is nobody left alive to notice" ... and i was still able to drink, eat, laugh, and chase the chicken ...
Then i killed last of their leaders Ragzlin ... again, not as quietly, true, but there was once again nobody left to witness it and i make sure that nobody will sound the alarm drums ... sudently whole camp, including goblins by the gate, beyond the gate on yard, even beyond the yard around another gate, and even beyond that another gate in completely different town ... they all know!
> That is immersion breaking for me. :-/
So quite the contrary to be honest ... being able to sneak out without Goblins knowing anything (via Fast Travel) is actualy more immersive for myself, than the game would be if this would be changed.
Since this way i can at least create my own headcannon that i sneak by those stupid goblins much sooner than they realized what happened ... and when i get there later, i can think that "enough time passed allready as it seems so they find their corpses" ... and even the stupidest goblin in the world may not count that 1 + 1 = 2 ... but they should be able to count stranger + dead boss = guilty.
> Ethel Lair ...
The only place where Larian actualy created "enemy territory" most likely to test how would players react ...
You cant Fast Travel from there (unless you kill everyone first), you cant Long Rest there (same rule) ... all you can (and i did) is walk out and travel, rest, and everything as much as you want.
So ... the only effect such are have is that it adds some extra walking through area you have allready completed, you allready explored, and have no longer anything to do there.
Kinda dissapointing experience imho, even tho certainly immersive.
I mean ... unless you decide to get in, leave out, rest > get in, leave out, rest > get in, leave out, rest > get in, leave out, rest > get in, leave out, rest > ... that starts to get immersive breaking quite fast.
> Spider hole leading to the Underdark ...
This is indeed great example and i salute mrfuji3 for bringing it up, since i would honestly never think about it.
And i must simply agree here ... there is no immersive way our characters should be able to fast travel anywhere from that spot, until they find some kind of portal ...
So ... +1 to this one from me i gues.
- Fast travel only from portal to portal.
Well, since i allready said few times that i do it exactly like this, even tho i dont need to ... i would not affect my gameplay in any way, so w/e i gues.
But on the other hand ... just that fact that i do it makes it hard for me to believe that there is some kind of "need" of system restriction for this ... but as long as it would be optional in settings, i see no harm in such option.
I'm more than happy if Larian chooses to put a "no fast travel limitation" option on the settings menu, maybe when choosing the game difficulty.
Agreed ... the deeper, and more detailed difficiulty settings the better.
Let anyone create the experience they want. ^_^ Nobody 59€ was more worthy than any other.
And since we allready discussed my expressions ...
Let me express that im happy to see such opinion, once again after so many months surrounded by people with closed eyes, stuffed years, yelling "lalalalala", and presuming their opinion will get more value, if they convince others to ignore anyone who dont agree with them. -_-
Would you like the game more, less, or about the same if teleportation portals as an in-game phenomenon didn't exist?
Are we talking about hypotetical alternative universe where Fast Travel as it is now was never part of this game ... or are we talking about change that would potentialy come in some futher patch?
- If they would remove the waystones in next patch and we would travel from landmark to landmark without any futher changes ...
I would like it less.
Since it would create exactly those "immersion breaking" situations people are complaining about in this very topic.
Take the Goblin camp for example (popular one after all) ... right now, when you want to get around the Goblin army all you need to do is sneak to Gut's room ... figure easy puzzle (or suceed on some rolls) ... climb down the ladder ... and voila! Portal!
If all you would get would be landmark ... you would still have to somehow get past the goblins, during that fast travel, and that would not make any sense. :-/
- If there would never ever ever be any teleportation rune in the first place, and we would only travel from landmark to landmark ...
I would probably like it about the same.
Since i walk to those runes anyway, there would be little change for me. Even tho some situations would make little less sense, as when you reach Grove faster than Minthara or Halsin ... with teleportation, you have covenient excuse, without it ... dunno, i would probably not make a fuss about it, but it would feel weird sometimes.
Thats why i said, and keep saying that i would preffer it exactly other way around ...
1) Camps should get their waystones ...
2) There should be ways to enter each and every camp from the map ... and once we do, there should be some short cinematic that would show us that our path we used is now gone (dunno, cave in, falling bridge, some traps triggers, use your imagination) ... therefore since *then* waystone would become the only way in or out our camp ... wich would make it perfectly suitable place for resting.
3) We should have some kind of options to talk with Gale (for example) about those runes, and he should either tell us that there is some kind of risk using them unless we know precisely and exactly where we want to get out ... so using them without exploring final destination first would be unwise ... or we should have option to talk with anyone else who dont have magical knowledge and agree on one of our first night that since the waystone is the only way inside ... someone should stand guard by it during the night (or we would switch, whatever).