Larian Studios
Posted By: GM4Him Companions - Things Just Don't Make Sense - 29/07/22 09:16 PM
Shadowheart - We've talked about a lot. She's dressed like a Sharran with onyx circlet, onyx stones in her armor, and she pretty much screams, "I'm a cleric of Shar everybody." But you're never given the opportunity to question who she is a cleric of, her outfit, or anything. Then, when she reveals her secret, your character's only option is shock. "What? Seriously? You believe in Shar? I did NOT see that coming." Makes no sense. At least give us the ability to question her, have her lie to us, have us make Insight checks and such to see if we can tell she's lying, have us make Religion rolls to determine if we know anything about Shar and her armor and such. SOMEthing to make this make more sense.

Astarion - I've mentioned this on another post. Why does he try to knife you? Makes no sense. Here's this guy who is all alone. He's a vampire spawn who learns "Holy crap! I'm not dying in direct sunlight!" Sure, he saw you running around on the ship, but all the more reason why he wouldn't try to trick you with a boar in the bushes and then put a knife to your throat. It makes no sense to me, especially if he's outnumbered two to 1 (or more in multiplayer mode), and especially if one of those individuals in your party is a cleric. He has no idea what he can or cannot do anymore, and he's alone. It makes way more sense to have Astarion try to be as sweet as pie with you to try to convince you he is a wonderful person to know and have on your team. He should be super friendly and such, trying to lull you into revealing something that he wants to know. I don't know. I just don't think it makes sense for him to attack you, and it would make a lot more players hate him less.

Gale - The one who REALLY doesn't make sense. I mean REALLY REALLY. First, he tells you that he's surprised your alive. "Last time I saw you, you were lying in a crucible's worth of blood; an intellect devourer nibbling at your ear." WHAAA??? When did THIS happen? Ever? Maybe if I screwed up the fight with the intellect devourers in the nautiloid just after leaving the beach, I might have been lying in a pool of blood, but otherwise, no. Makes no sense. At no time was I ever in this scenario. But I can't even ask him what he means. I can't ask him where he was on the ship either. I can't ask him, or anyone really for that matter, to tell me their story about how they survived the ship, how they got away, and what they've been doing all this time. Maybe that's just because it's EA, I don't know, but hopefully at full release they'll let us ask such questions. Also, and this is a big one for me, I have no ability to question Gale with why he is the ONLY origin character we don't connect with at the tadpole level. Shadowheart, Astarion, Lae'zel and Wyll ALL connect via tadpole, but Gale does not. Why? I can't even ask him what he thinks. And why can't I get jealous when Gale flirts with Shadowheart? I mean, what a perfect opportunity to create some tension between party members. He flirts with Shadowheart, and I should have the ability to at least say, "All right. All right. You old smoothy," like Han with Lando. Then I lead Shadowheart away by the hand with my back to him just to make sure he understands. lol. OK. So maybe not quite like that, but you know... something. I can only sit there and watch it play out. And, finally, Gale can die. Oh! He's got this big magic bomb in his chest. If he dies, he'll supernova everything. But hey. We can kill him and leave him for dead on the ground as soon as we meet him. Makes no sense. That goes for Astarion too. He can bleed out and die, even though he's a vampire spawn? ??? Makes no sense. No. If we kill Gale, his ghost self should appear and say to resurrect him quick or else. If you don't... BOOM!!! Game over. Reload. Best not mess with Gale.

And if Astarion dies, SOMEthing different should happen instead of a pool of blood forming around him. He's a vampire spawn. Yes, he's weird because of the tadpole, but it should be something different. I mean, during dialogues, he makes comments like, "I'd like to see you try," when you mention something about killing him. Um... If he can bleed out and die like everyone else, he shouldn't be acting all like he's a vampire spawn still. I don't know. He just doesn't make sense. It's like no one's really sure if he's a vampire spawn or a person. Is he alive or dead? He can bleed out, but he has no reflection, but he has fangs and needs to drink blood, but he can only do so once in a day now, and he can't spider climb, but he can enter places unwelcomed, but he burns when walking through running water, but he doesn't burn up in the sun... It just doesn't add up at all. When his HP is reduced to 0, maybe he should NOT bleed out and instead he starts sizzling and turning into a vapor, as if he's burning up in the sun. SOMEthing to say, "Astarion isn't like everyone else." I mean, Gale has some death cloud around him, so why shouldn't Astarion be different from everyone else?

Lae'zel - "We must get to the creche. NOW!" She nags you to death about it. Then, 7 Long Rests later. She's forgotten all about it. She doesn't even care anymore, and she's still in your party. Why exactly?

Wyll - Same as Lae'zel. "I'm after Mizora and I want to defeat the goblins to save the grove. These are the only things I really care about." We go everywhere but the goblin camp and ignore it completely. He's perfectly fine even after a week of long resting. No issues with Wyll no matter what you do.

I don't know. Like I said. Maybe it's just because it's EA, but there are SO many things that don't make sense.
Posted By: Icelyn Re: Companions - Things Just Don't Make Sense - 29/07/22 09:46 PM
I’ll add one more:
Halsin: It doesn’t make sense he isn’t a companion! biggrin 🐻
Originally Posted by Icelyn
I’ll add one more:
Halsin: It doesn’t make sense he isn’t a companion! biggrin 🐻
https://i.imgflip.com/6oche6.jpg
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Companions - Things Just Don't Make Sense - 29/07/22 11:00 PM
Originally Posted by Icelyn
I’ll add one more:
Halsin: It doesn’t make sense he isn’t a companion! biggrin 🐻
Amen to that. 😁
Posted By: Tuco Re: Companions - Things Just Don't Make Sense - 30/07/22 12:25 AM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Gale - The one who REALLY doesn't make sense. I mean REALLY REALLY. First, he tells you that he's surprised your alive. "Last time I saw you, you were lying in a crucible's worth of blood; an intellect devourer nibbling at your ear." WHAAA??? When did THIS happen? Ever? Maybe if I screwed up the fight with the intellect devourers in the nautiloid just after leaving the beach, I might have been lying in a pool of blood, but otherwise, no. Makes no sense. At no time was I ever in this scenario.
Uh, the implication is that this is something that happened at any time between the insertion of the tadpole and when you woke up on the ground of the Nautiloid outside of your pod.
Not sure what's supposed to be so outrageous about it.

Quote
to tell me their story about how they survived the ship, how they got away, and what they've been doing all this time.
Allegedly, more or less like you did? And "all this time" is supposed to be a few hours at most after the Nautiloid crashed. The crash happen in an unspecified moment of the night and you wake up on the bitch at morning (which could be as likely one, two or six hours later, for what you can tell).

I mean, you make some fair point in your summary, but these sound like arbitrary nitpicking.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Companions - Things Just Don't Make Sense - 30/07/22 02:23 AM
Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Gale - The one who REALLY doesn't make sense. I mean REALLY REALLY. First, he tells you that he's surprised your alive. "Last time I saw you, you were lying in a crucible's worth of blood; an intellect devourer nibbling at your ear." WHAAA??? When did THIS happen? Ever? Maybe if I screwed up the fight with the intellect devourers in the nautiloid just after leaving the beach, I might have been lying in a pool of blood, but otherwise, no. Makes no sense. At no time was I ever in this scenario.
Uh, the implication is that this is something that happened at any time between the insertion of the tadpole and when you woke up on the ground of the Nautiloid outside of your pod.
Not sure what's supposed to be so outrageous about it.

Quote
to tell me their story about how they survived the ship, how they got away, and what they've been doing all this time.
Allegedly, more or less like you did? And "all this time" is supposed to be a few hours at most after the Nautiloid crashed. The crash happen in an unspecified moment of the night and you wake up on the bitch at morning (which could be as likely one, two or six hours later, for what you can tell).

I mean, you make some fair point in your summary, but these sound like arbitrary nitpicking.

I was being somewhat serious, but not totally.

I am always confused by the Gale remark, though. We don't wake up in blood, and there isn't an intellect devourer in sight. It's just a little off. I do wonder if it is a mistake or they have something else in mind that we don't know about.

As for what they've been doing, it depends on whether you long rest or not. If you don't, it makes sense. If you do... What have they been doing for a day?

Also, another thing that doesn't sit well with me. If you meet Shadowheart at the crypt entrance, she's got like 4 dead intellect devourers near her, as if she killed them all by herself. Dang! Seriously?

Gale is similar with the goblins. They don't really say it, but it's kinda implied that he killed them since they're near where you meet him. But he has full spell slots and is a baby wizard. Just seems again to be a bit off.

I'd like Investigation checks to piece together what happened in various places. Success means I figure out that the fishers on the beach actually killed the devourers, not SH, and the two tieflings used crossbows and ambushed the goblins from above, or something. You know. Make sense of the scene. I find crossbow bolts or something indicating the tieflings, or something.

Anyway. All minor points, really.
I wouldn't get too hung up on the Gale stuff. The whole cutscene reeks of placeholder. If he did see us lying down at the beach, he should have definitely noticed Shadowheart on the way there too.
I agree with Tuco that it's probably supposed to reflect the time we spend being knocked out *on* the nautiloid, after the pod breaks open in the intro cinematic. Presumably Gale was in one of the pods in that room and selfishly left us for dead. We don't see any intellect devourers because we're, as mentioned, knocked out. But it is seriously not a good look for him. "Oh hello Gale. It's good to meet you. What was that you just said about LEAVING US TO BLEED OUT (OR WORSE) ON A MINDFLAYER SHIP THAT WAS ON FIRE AND IN HELL?!?!??"

I think that line should be changed if not removed. Otherwise, now we have multiple companions who attempt to kill us, through action or intentional inaction, when they first meet us. (I'm not counting Lae'zel. She only threatens to kill us.)
Posted By: Zarna Re: Companions - Things Just Don't Make Sense - 30/07/22 06:49 AM
Shadowheart: They need to give her different armour probably, although I will say that a random commoner for instance would not know what a follower of Shar is likely to be wearing. Many people would rather have a somewhat normal backstory rather than something grandiose and filled with self importance, but a cleric should get a religion roll for sure with her current armour.

Astarion: Desperation makes people do stupid things. He is confused, probably traumatized, maybe even hungry, and not thinking clearly. He also says he saw us on the ship and thinks we are in league with the mindflayers, so even though he is outnumbered he will try to kill his assumed enemy. Not sure he would know that Shadowheart is a cleric unless she starts casting. Perhaps for this first meeting there could be another roll to determine if he will attack us or not (maybe from the response we give him?) As for all the other stuff about him, I feel like Larian didn't do enough research on how a vampire spawn really is. The spider climb part is easy though, we have no z axis. I just hope the rest can be explained properly later on because "tadpole" seems to be a big excuse for a lot of things.

Gale: I think his comment is referring to before we wake up on the ship. Hopefully what happened to get us there will be revealed later on in the game. A couple patches ago I am pretty sure that as a Drow I had a memory of something that implied I was being sacrificed but could be wrong about this. Perhaps all of our characters had something similar happen or just tried to fight when we were abducted, which would explain the blood. We do need to be able to ask Gale about why our tadpoles do not do what they do with everyone else, hopefully this also will be revealed later. As for killing him immediately, I have never done this (usually just don't go to the portal if I don't want him in my party) but if we don't get the resurrection scene then that is something that makes no sense and should be fixed.

Lae'zel: There should be some sort of dialogue to explain why she is now ok with not doing what she wants. It is weird that she suddenly accepts not going to the creche.

Wyll: He should also have a dialogue explaining things.
The whole Astarion introduction really is baffling. Even if you can explain away his reason for doing so in the first place, it just feels like a bad way to introduce a companion like him. I think it would feelbetter if he were a more sincere character honestly. It would come off easier to believe if someone who's clearly lost and at the end of their rope makes a desperation move and then is clearly apologetic when the truth of their mistake comes to light. Astarion ends up just dripping with condesencion, playing off his mistake and feels quite unappologetic, which makes it hard to trust him after that. And yes, he should probably come off kind of untrustworthy, but I think this current introduction is simply to blunt about it too soon. He should be untrustworthy in a slick, kind of greasy way, like you know he's playing you somehow, you just can't be sure why. Astarion's introduction should focus on portraying him as a charmer and someone with a lot of guile. Clumsily trying to hold us at knifepoint and then arrogantly brushing it off makes him feel really...unimpressive.

Also related to Astarion, the fact he can kill us during the blood-drinking scene is insane. Sure, it makes some logical sense that if we let him drink too much and weaken us, he might lose control, but it just...from a narrative, storytelling perspective that's terrible. After that happens, the rest of the party should kill him for it. But they don't, they barely seem to acknowledge that it happened, if at all. And if you have a companion pay to resurrect you, he's so arrogant and acts like killing you isn't a big deal. It's the one moment in the game that genuinely, truly INFURIATES me. He killed us, how dare he not be grovelling for forgiveness? How the hell does Larian think that's an acceptable thing to let a companion do? Gaaahhh!
Astarion is paranoid, been enslaved and traumatised in innumerable ways for hundreds of years, and has just escaped from an environment in which he associates you with his most recent capture and trauma.

Pulling a knife on you really isn't that odd.

ShadowHeart was likely captured on a mission working for Shar where the mission goals are secret, but not necessarily the fact her/her group was from Shar. She might have been part of a commando force where they were all decked out.

What is weird is she doesn't recognise how obvious she now is and tries to hide the fact, not that she has the gear itself.

Either/or though, either her gear or her delusions of secrecy need to go.

Wyll is just a mess of a character IMO and they need to re-do most of it to make his story and timeline coherent.


In general I don't think Larian is prepared to do BG2 style companions where people leave your group either through you actions or inter-party dynamics, partly because they are committed to their Origin character system, and partly because the game just doesn't have enough companion character options.
Good summary.

Originally Posted by GM4Him
And if Astarion dies, SOMEthing different should happen instead of a pool of blood forming around him. He's a vampire spawn. Yes, he's weird because of the tadpole, but it should be something different. I mean, during dialogues, he makes comments like, "I'd like to see you try," when you mention something about killing him. Um... If he can bleed out and die like everyone else, he shouldn't be acting all like he's a vampire spawn still. I don't know. He just doesn't make sense. It's like no one's really sure if he's a vampire spawn or a person. Is he alive or dead? He can bleed out, but he has no reflection, but he has fangs and needs to drink blood, but he can only do so once in a day now, and he can't spider climb, but he can enter places unwelcomed, but he burns when walking through running water, but he doesn't burn up in the sun... It just doesn't add up at all. When his HP is reduced to 0, maybe he should NOT bleed out and instead he starts sizzling and turning into a vapor, as if he's burning up in the sun. SOMEthing to say, "Astarion isn't like everyone else." I mean, Gale has some death cloud around him, so why shouldn't Astarion be different from everyone else?
This is the problem when someone says "hey, wouldn't it be cool to have a vampire character?!" and then they just jump to add one because vampires are so cool. Even if there's no night time in the game and they don't want to deal with the significant gameplay implications. And the story of the game isn't about vampires at all. They don't explain why a Mindflayer tadpole, a living biological creature, would ever enter a dead body with no sustenance or be able to transform dead tissue. They then use the same tadpole as a weak excuse to ignore the vampire traits that are inconvenient for gameplay. Just stapled on vampire that doesn't belong. And what happens? Vampires are no longer cool.

You can't have everything without sacrificing the quality and integrity of writing. A vampire PC belongs in game where there is a) night time and gameplay mechanical consequences for being one and b) a story that revolves much more heavily around vampires instead of something completely unrelated.

The voice actor is great, but the character is really weak. It's a shame his talent is wasted on such a haphazardly put together character that doesn't really add up.
I always throught Astarion's actions worked for a 9 int character. They changed that due to feedback, well change the introduction. He should be smarter than that.

Shadowheart... ugh. Where do I start. She's gorgeous, she's useful, she has nice cinematics... but she's dumb and was written abysmally if we're not playing the Sharan/Trickery Cleric for laughs. If I want to be kind, I'll say that the brainwashing that turned her Sharan scrambled her wits a bit.

SHADOWHEART: "We just met. You saved my life. I will give an obviously fake name... So you can trust me."
TAV: [Linked Image from i.kym-cdn.com]

SHADOWHEART: "I will pick up this suspicious looking artifact and, when questioned, I'll make it as painfully obvious as possible that it's a SECRET. We are now going into a dangerous situation ...But you can trust me."
[Linked Image from i.kym-cdn.com]

(Same shtick on the beach. Same in the grove.

Whatever happened to good old:
"My holy symbol. *Starts espousing niche religious information that no one can call bullshit on without a 20 Religion check and bores everyone else*"
"A family heirloom. These abominations took me just as I was sorting through my great-aunt's belongings. She was my favorite aunt, bless her heart."
)

SHADOWHEART: "I will continue to wear an armor and circlet with Shar's holy symbol... No, we can't talk about it even if you can open the book of dead gods, recognise Jergal, and pass any other Religion checks. But I am good! And loyal!"
[Linked Image from i.kym-cdn.com]

SHADOWHEART: "I will refuse to give out any info about myself while constantly demanding to know what others were talking about... That is cool and you should indulge me, chase me, answer all my questions, do what I suggest, and I will love you for it."
[Linked Image from i.kym-cdn.com]

Fake-eye Wyll has a better cover story than Shadowheart. Man, Astarion has a better cover story. ...by the simple fact that he has a cover story. And as I said before, he was originally written as a 9 int character.

Gale... Gale-bear creeps me out. When you meet him, he casually (almost cheerfully) informs you that he left you for dead. When you do what he wants, he's polite, supportive, and complimentary. When you don't do what he wants, he becomes, by turns, threatening or demeaning while trying to pretend to you and the group that he's still thinking of the greater good or the most practical thing. That level of emotional manipulation creeps me out. I want to like him! He's likeable... when you do what he wants. He can be funny and sweet... when you do what he wants. He will make Tav feel good about him/herself... when you do what he wants.
Gale is a better manipulator than Shadowheart (Trickery Cleric), a better liar than Astarion (Rogue), and more dangerous to the team's health than anyone else (due to the Netherese magic). So Gale probably won't be in my first team at release. He's a ticking bomb in more ways than one. frown
I agree to almost everything that has been said:

- Shadowheart: Either she dops her Shar gear or she tells you: "I am a cleric of Shar on a mission but I will not tell you what it is."
The name Shadowheart is not really helpful on a secret mission. It may be a cool name for a secret mission but if you tell everyone its not secret anymore.
PS: Do clerics have to use a symbol of their god or say their gods name to cast spells? In that case it makes no sense trying to hide that you are a cleric of Shar if you travel with a group that may need your spells.

- As I said long time ago, its best to make him a vampire thrall instead of a vampire spawn. He is an elf who was the slave of a vampire lord for a long time. It makes no sense to make him a vampire when he loses most vampire abilities or weaknesses. It makes no sense that Illithids infect undead. Then they could also drop his water problem. Its nuts that the devs had to decide for every water in the game if it is moving or not because one char has a special background.

His intro scene also makes little sense. He tries to kill you when he is outnumbered and your armed companions stand right next to you. And then it makes no sense that he wants to join you one moment after he tried to kill you.

- Ignore every argument that involves time. There is no time in the game. Nobody cares if you rest 100 times and where you go first. They only care about your choice here and now, like if you kill or help an NPC.
PS: This makes things with time element (e.g. burning inn) even more annoying.
They really should remove the Shar stuff from SH armor. She comes across as very amateur. I would even hide the artifact until she used it or dies.

Astarion will get killed in my games nowadays. It doesn't make sense to invite someone into my group, who threatens you with a knife. And since I don't like him anyways -away with him.
Wyll is much too obvious with hiding stuff. Same as SH actually.
Gale, well, I find much about him off, but I find it ok, that He might have seen me ( or thought, he'd Seen me) getting attacked by a intellect devourer.

I actually am mostly ok with Laez'el's behavior, but I would like, if she would go off to search for the gith patrol on her own, if we take too long and er meet her again during the cutscene with said gith patrol.
Originally Posted by GM4Him
"Last time I saw you, you were lying in a crucible's worth of blood; an intellect devourer nibbling at your ear."
Feel free to corect me, but as far as i know Intellect Devourer dont even have mouth, or teeth to nibble anything ... meaning, quite logicaly, this sentence cannot be taken litteraly and may be just Gale colorfull way of describing that you seemed dead.

Originally Posted by GM4Him
No. If we kill Gale, his ghost self should appear and say to resurrect him quick or else. If you don't... BOOM!!! Game over. Reload. Best not mess with Gale.
Nah ...
You can just presume that someone else ressurected him, after all he quite specificaly told them how.

Would be nice to see him later, tho.
Posted By: JandK Re: Companions - Things Just Don't Make Sense - 30/07/22 02:02 PM
Scenario:

Gale, all by himself, hiding on the nautiloid, trying not to be recaptured, sees you unconscious and surrounded by intellect devourers.

He's one guy. A first level wizard. Is he going to:

A. charge in and get killed in the hopes that he might be able to save you assuming you're even still alive?

-or-

B. try to get away?

*

I don't believe that the average person would notice Shadowheart's armor. That said, I do think a religion roll would be in order, which, if passed, should initiate a conversation.

The idea of getting romantic with Shadowheart creeps me out a little when I think about it.

1. She's super up front about how she's a liar. Red flag.

-and-

2. She doesn't even have her memories. And here you are developing a relationship with her. When she gets her memories back, who is she going to be? She could be married for all the two of you know. She could have a *completely* different personality.

*

Regarding Laezel sticking around... it's a game. Games always make allowances for doing side quests. The main quest is always super important and demanding immediate attention... but somehow the character finds time to go off and do side quests anyway.

That's just the way it is.

If Laezel left the party after a couple of nights, folks would be screaming in protest.

*

Say what you will about Astarion, but at least his introductory scene is interesting. Something happens. As opposed to: "Hi, I'm Astarion, and gosh, I'm scared out here alone. Who are you?" <--boring.
You have a point about Gale. I'm not too fussed about his whole situation honestly.

How much people would recognize the armor and such is up in the air, granted. Your point about her romance is interesting too.

The issue with Lae'zel is that the writers didn't have to make her so vehemently single-minded. Suspension of disbelief is something I support, and I find the Lae'zel issue to be a more forgiveable example, but it just feels like an example of the writers prioritizing "coolness" over party/gameplay synergy.

And with Astarion, just because something is interesting doesn't mean it's actually good. The movie Cats is very interesting, but there is much debate about its goodness. I don't think it does a good job of introducing his character, or at least, it fails to really make him an appealing addition to the party. And when he's the only rogue available, a particularly important character archetype, that's not good.
Posted By: JandK Re: Companions - Things Just Don't Make Sense - 30/07/22 02:32 PM
Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
You have a point about Gale. I'm not too fussed about his whole situation honestly.

How much people would recognize the armor and such is up in the air, granted. Your point about her romance is interesting too.

The issue with Lae'zel is that the writers didn't have to make her so vehemently single-minded. Suspension of disbelief is something I support, and I find the Lae'zel issue to be a more forgiveable example, but it just feels like an example of the writers prioritizing "coolness" over party/gameplay synergy.

And with Astarion, just because something is interesting doesn't mean it's actually good. The movie Cats is very interesting, but there is much debate about its goodness. I don't think it does a good job of introducing his character, or at least, it fails to really make him an appealing addition to the party. And when he's the only rogue available, a particularly important character archetype, that's not good.

I understand how Laezel gets annoying. I tend to agree. I want her on the team, but sometimes I don't like suffering her attitude.

*

With Astarion, I can also see the issue people have with his introduction.

Personally, I think it would go a long way to give him disadvantage on his stealth roll against the PC. His armor gives disadvantage anyway, right?

But it's clear the game isn't giving him disadvantage because Tav so often fails the check to notice him.

His scene doesn't play out half as bad when Tav notices him. It's only when they end up on the ground with the dagger to the throat that it gets real questionable. In my opinion, that is.
I actually like Lae'zel quite a bit, she and Wyll are my favorite characters at this point. I like Gale too, but Wyll is charming and Lae'zel is interesting.

I think I've only fallen for the stealth check once in my three or four playthroughs, and the fact that he goes for me with the knife at all is still just really off-putting for a character you're supposed to welcome onto your side. What're your thoughts on the whole blood drinking scene and his potentially killing your character? And his reaction afterwards of course.
Posted By: JandK Re: Companions - Things Just Don't Make Sense - 30/07/22 03:20 PM
Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
What're your thoughts on the whole blood drinking scene and his potentially killing your character? And his reaction afterwards of course.

That's a tough question. I don't like it. I mean, I don't like him drinking my blood, or even trying to when I'm asleep.

But do I like the scene? Yeah, I think I do. It's fitting. He's free for the first time, and he wants to try blood. It makes sense that he would give in to temptation at night in camp.

And it creates a moment for Tav where a decision has to be made.

*

The limitations with the scene after that are mine, I suppose. It's difficult for me to make a non-meta decision.

On one hand, I can let him drink from me knowing that:

1. I'll get approval, and

2. He'll have a powerful new ability in the form of a bite. It gives him a +1 on basically everything. Which makes him a better asset as a companion.

But... why the heck would I trust him or let him drink my blood?

Overall, I feel cornered as a player. Am I going to kill my only rogue? Say what you will about Astarion, he's a valuable member of the party when it comes to combat effectiveness. Sneak attack, two hand crossbows, poison, sleight of hand. He's useful.

*

Another tangential issue I have with him is that I can *never* create a rogue as good as he is. Because I can't get that 'happy' state that gives a +1 to everything.

I don't know why that bothers me so much, but it does. It makes me not want to make a rogue. I feel like my rogue would be competing with Astarion and ultimately coming up short.

*

ETA: oh, I just realized I didn't address the possibility of Astarion killing your character.

I'm okay with that. In fact, I prefer it as a possibility. It brings a gravitas to decisions that's all too often lacking in games. And stories in general, for that matter.
I don't mind him trying to drink my blood, and I usually play characters compassionate enough to allow him to, so the first part leading up to it all, I'm totally fine with. And in theory I'm fine with the possibility of him killing our character. The problem is, the game keeps going. And we either have to play without our main character, or, more likely, we use the weird undead thing to bring them back. And then he's an utter asshole about it. I think that all undercuts any gravitas the moment could have had. And it only further cements Astarion as an utterly selfish asshole, rather than a complex character. Him killing our character should be a non-standard game over, with an ending slide and then we have to resume. Instead we get this bizarre situation instead that makes keeping Astarion in the party afterwards a decision that pretty much no character would be able to justify. Plus, none of the other companions react to it, when logically they should be pissed off and either drive him away or kill him outright.
Originally Posted by JandK
Scenario:

Gale, all by himself, hiding on the nautiloid, trying not to be recaptured, sees you unconscious and surrounded by intellect devourers.

He's one guy. A first level wizard. Is he going to:

A. charge in and get killed in the hopes that he might be able to save you assuming you're even still alive?

-or-

B. try to get away?
That's definitely an understandable course of action on Gale's part. But, like, shouldn't he feel bad about that? His tone when he mentions that to us is jovial, like he saw us passed out in a silly position after a night of drinking haha. Idk, I'd certainly feel sheepish having to tell a person I left them for dead, if I even mentioned it at al. It certainly wouldn't be the first thing I say after meeting them...
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Companions - Things Just Don't Make Sense - 30/07/22 05:09 PM
Originally Posted by mrfuji3
Originally Posted by JandK
Scenario:

Gale, all by himself, hiding on the nautiloid, trying not to be recaptured, sees you unconscious and surrounded by intellect devourers.

He's one guy. A first level wizard. Is he going to:

A. charge in and get killed in the hopes that he might be able to save you assuming you're even still alive?

-or-

B. try to get away?
That's definitely an understandable course of action on Gale's part. But, like, shouldn't he feel bad about that? His tone when he mentions that to us is jovial, like he saw us passed out in a silly position after a night of drinking haha. Idk, I'd certainly feel sheepish having to tell a person I left them for dead, if I even mentioned it at al. It certainly wouldn't be the first thing I say after meeting them...

My point was that he doesn't even try to explain, and you don't have the ability to ask. I actually assumed the same thing, and I'm putting that very explanation in the Tabletop campaign I'm writing - that he saw you, there was an intellect devourer, and devils in the next chamber. It was suicide to help you. That's what sparked this post, actually. I was writing the campaign and thought about the potential that players might ask him to clarify. I even went back to the Prologue and rewrote the part about waking up in the pod chamber. I made sure to say that they wake up in pools of blood, and each PC is half HP to start. I did this just to fit with Gale's comment.

But, see, it's all assumption based on... What? It's assumption based on the fact that nothing else really makes sense, I guess. But even that doesn't make sense because you don't wake up in a crucibles worth of blood, and there are devil bodies in the next chamber but no devourers. So... It's like assuming Shadowheart killed FOUR devourers herself just because the bodies are near her, or assuming Gale singlehandedly killed the goblin patrol because their bodies are near where you meet him. You have no real reason to assume that's the case. You just assume because you have no other real evidence.

But the point is, you can't even try to find out. You can't ask or make Investigation checks to see what killed them... And with Gale's comment, you can't ask him why he left you or when exactly that he saw you or was he even in the same pod chamber or anything.

Like I said, it's only a small thing, but I just find it weird and it doesn't make full sense. A LOT of the companion stuff doesn't make sense. Again, maybe at full release it will, but right now... Not so much.
Originally Posted by GM4Him
. So... It's like assuming Shadowheart killed FOUR devourers herself just because the bodies are near her, or assuming Gale singlehandedly killed the goblin patrol because their bodies are near where you meet him. You have no real reason to assume that's the case. You just assume because you have no other real evidence.
Well, actually... I noticed that in patch 8, if you don't let Shadowheart out of the tank, you can meet her at the chapel door instead of lying on the beach. Then, if you tell her that the noise she's making might draw enemies... Shadowheart comments smth like 'who do you think killed them' or 'those didn't die by themselves'.

On the other hand... and I might be a bit cynical... Gale is callous, demeaning, and threatening when you get him angry so if he thought he didn't have anything to gain from rescuing you, he'd likely have left you to die on the ship. Just like you can leave Shadowheart... and just like Astarion complains that while he was trapped, you were just 'strutting about'. Just selfish bastards all around (Tav sometimes included)
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Companions - Things Just Don't Make Sense - 30/07/22 05:43 PM
I was honestly thinking of my players while writing the campaign. All I could think of was, "They're going to reject or kill them all.

Shadowheart is a Sharran, and they'll likely know it and kill her. Astarion puts a knife to your throat and acts REALLY sus. Gale says he left you to die, and he DOESN'T connect to you like everyone else does.

Yeah. REAL sus.

Lae'zel is a Gith and makes it clear you aren't friends and she's only with you for HER own sake. You MIGHT keep her with you out of desperation IF you think she MAYBE is your only solution, though most people are kinda like, Don't trust her. She'll kill you in a heartbeat, and Wyll is OBVIOUSLY trying to half butt hide that he has a pact with a devil because you see it in his mind... So he lies to you pathetically.

Yeah. My players wouldn't trust a single one and would reject them ALL.
Posted By: JandK Re: Companions - Things Just Don't Make Sense - 30/07/22 06:04 PM
I don't think Gale killed the goblins. There's zero reason to think he did. He was, as he says, swept from one rune to the next. I don't think he was even at that rune when the goblins were killed. He just appeared, after all.

He was probably at the rune that leads to the camp area. That's my guess.

The goblins are there to showcase that goblins are in the area. They probably saw the ship crash and went to investigate. At which point, they more than likely died in the resulting chaos. The place is full of fire and debris and had intellect devourers running all over attacking everything they saw.

The fact that there aren't any intellect devourer bodies there just means they killed the three goblins without taking any casualties.

*

So, yeah. Shadowheart talks about the intellect devourers. The dead bodies that talk mention the chaos and the "brains" everywhere, running around, chasing people. There was fire all around from a giant ship that just crashed.

And Gale mentions that he came from another rune.

I'd say things are reasonably explained.

*

You can even make reasonable guesses about things like pods. Astarion is right beside a pod, probably the one he was in on the ship.

The pod that smells like sulfur is probably the one Mizora was in... especially considering Wyll's interest in the pod if he's with you when you come across it.

It's mentioned somewhere that Wyll got to the grove a little before the player character did.

*

Now, if you happen to sleep for a week and then finally meet Gale and want to know what he's been up to for a week... that's asking a bit much.

What if you decided to long rest for a month? Would you then want a full story from Gale about what he'd been up to for a month?

The number of long rests you take are variable and not something the game's story can reasonably take into account. Gale can't change his story depending on how many long rests you took, so it makes much more sense to keep it somewhat vague, but easy to make assumptions about.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Companions - Things Just Don't Make Sense - 30/07/22 07:52 PM
You hit the point exactly when you said "You can even make reasonable guesses"

Exactly. All of it is "reasonable guesses". You can't ever ask to find out ANYTHING.

And that's my point. My players are going to ask the characters questions to learn more about what actually happened and why to determine if they want to accept the character in the party.

Which then gets me thinking about why would the player in the video game accept any of them, other than they need companions?
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Companions - Things Just Don't Make Sense - 30/07/22 08:33 PM
Another question. Why would intellect devourers kill goblins? Aren't they all serving the Absolute? Wouldn't they work together?

But if the intellect devourers didn't kill them, and Gale didn't, and the mercs at the crypt didn't... Who did?

Did they die from crossbows, slash marks, spells? We're the injuries from fire or debris from the ship?

So many questions.

And you've also hit another point exactly. If I even long rest once, I shouldn't meet any of the PCs on the road unless there is good reason why they're still there... Or maybe you shouldn't be allowed to long rest until after you get through the area.
With regard to devourers killing the goblins, I don't the devourers serve the Absolute. I get the sense that the Absolute might be something somewhat separate from the mindflayers as a whole. And even if that's not the case, then the goblins certainly don't know they're serving mindflayers and would probably attack any intellect devourers, and the devourers would logically defend themselves. So that at least makes sense to me without any difficulty.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Companions - Things Just Don't Make Sense - 30/07/22 09:47 PM
Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
With regard to devourers killing the goblins, I don't the devourers serve the Absolute. I get the sense that the Absolute might be something somewhat separate from the mindflayers as a whole. And even if that's not the case, then the goblins certainly don't know they're serving mindflayers and would probably attack any intellect devourers, and the devourers would logically defend themselves. So that at least makes sense to me without any difficulty.

All the thralls on the Nautiloid have the amulet of the Absolute.

And true. Could be a misunderstanding. Could be that the two tieflings who captured Lae are the ones to ambush and kill from above. Could be Gale killed them. Could be the fishermen. Could have been Lae as she escaped.

There's no way to know. Ever. And no one talks about it.

There are a LOT of things like this in the game.
The thralls all have amulets, really? It's been ages since I last replayed so they must have added that in a patch somewhere along the lines. Yeah that does make things murky and weird.

I do agree withyou overall. I'm all for environmental storytelling, but that requires a degree of care and finesse that Larian seems to apply only sporadically. It's one thing to not hold players' hands, it's another to leave a bunch of half-baked mysteries without definitive answers. Doing that a couple of times is good for keeping the world feeling big and deep, but Larian has overdone it and it makes it hard to feel grounded in the setting.Though at this point I genuinely believe Larian actively wants us not to feel grounded in this area, what with the way every plot point seems to resolve in a way that leaves us not having any in-game desire to return.
Posted By: Tuco Re: Companions - Things Just Don't Make Sense - 30/07/22 10:02 PM
It’s been a while since I paid attention to the thralls on the nautiloid, but as far as I remember at some point they were wearing amulets of the so called dead three, not of the “Absolute”.

Did this change recently?
Posted By: JandK Re: Companions - Things Just Don't Make Sense - 30/07/22 10:09 PM
Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
...half-baked mysteries...

Are three dead goblins really a mystery though?

I mean, the first question is: who cares really? Maybe it was Karlach who killed them. Maybe it was the falling ship. Maybe it was an intellect devourer. Regardless, something killed them. Does it matter?

And the second question is: are we supposed to know everything? If I come across a pile of bones, is the game supposed to provide me with a way to find out the life story of the person they belonged to?
Originally Posted by JandK
I mean, the first question is: who cares really?
Some people care, obviously. Enviromental storytelling it's called. Hopefully folks at Larian as well, as they are ones putting stuff into the game.
Posted By: JandK Re: Companions - Things Just Don't Make Sense - 30/07/22 11:00 PM
Originally Posted by Wormerine
Originally Posted by JandK
I mean, the first question is: who cares really?
Some people care, obviously. Enviromental storytelling it's called. Hopefully folks at Larian as well, as they are ones putting stuff into the game.

There's a crash with dead bodies all around. Chaos. Fire. Lots of fighting happened here. The goblins show us that there are goblins in the area.

Environmental storytelling. Check. It worked.

Asking for the specific details of where each character has been, what they're up to for however many long rests you took, and trying to Sherlock Holmes every thing to death isn't environmental storytelling.

It's like: why's there a shovel in the middle of the path to the grove? Who left that shovel there? The game doesn't tell me. Why doesn't the game tell me? I need cut scenes and NPCs talking about this otherwise completely irrelevant topic. <--relax, it's just a shovel there because the digging is a new mechanic.
Posted By: JandK Re: Companions - Things Just Don't Make Sense - 30/07/22 11:19 PM
Originally Posted by Wormerine
Some people care, obviously.

Just to add, the point is about whether or not it's ***reasonable*** to care about it.

There's always going to be some fringe element hyperfocused on something irrelevant. There's no accounting for that personality type.

I'm trying to offer some perspective on the importance of the goblin bodies versus the, for lack of a better word, nitpicking about their history.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Companions - Things Just Don't Make Sense - 30/07/22 11:31 PM
Originally Posted by Tuco
It’s been a while since I paid attention to the thralls on the nautiloid, but as far as I remember at some point they were wearing amulets of the so called dead three, not of the “Absolute”.

Did this change recently?

The Amulet of the Absolute IS the same amulet as the "Dead Three".

The same amulet the cultists wear is the same as the thralls on the Nautiloid.
Posted By: Tuco Re: Companions - Things Just Don't Make Sense - 30/07/22 11:49 PM
Not sure what you mean? The Absolute has his own emblem.

These thralls used to have the medallions with the [three different] emblems of Cyric, Bhaal and Bane, unless something changed.
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Feel free to corect me, but as far as i know Intellect Devourer dont even have mouth, or teeth to nibble anything ... meaning, quite logicaly, this sentence cannot be taken litteraly and may be just Gale colorfull way of describing that you seemed dead.

.

This. Agree 100%.

Also, I personally left a bunch of dead/dying/thralled folks in the nautiloid and pods because I was trying to escape (I assume you all did too). So I am not irked with any of my companions that dod the same, Gale included. I also accidentally killed two people hooked up to weird chairs and turned another into a monster by pushing a button. Nobody is perfect.

Also there WERE intellect devourers running/scuttling around. And I DID wake up on the fllor with a head injury and the first thing I saw was a busted pod.

Jesus Christ…picking on this line is ridiculous. It is ALL there.

There is nothing wrong with Gale’s line, unless you want characters with no personality as your companions. Ie, exposition dumpers like in Kingdoms of Amular. Not liking him based on his personality is fine, of course.

The issue with me for Gale is where u meet him imho. Just popping out of a portal (sus) and right next to everyone else (boring).

Asterion’s knife pull is fine with me. He is a bad guy. If you don’t like it, kill him. Do agree with the vapor death tho. That would add flavor.

Shafowheart’s armor is annoying. Will mod it, personally.
Posted By: Tuco Re: Companions - Things Just Don't Make Sense - 31/07/22 12:26 AM
Fun fact: in her early iterations (previews and gameplay videos coming out before EA) Shadowheart did NOT have an armor showing off her affiliation with Shar.
Someone at Larian at some point probably decided that it would be a nice visual touch, without thinking too much about the narrative implications.
Posted By: Sozz Re: Companions - Things Just Don't Make Sense - 31/07/22 12:53 AM
Somewhat related to Gale's remarks, we see every pod that the companions were held in, Astarion's is near where we find him, Karlach's is up river from where she's hiding, we potentially free Shadowheart from hers, and there are three four in the first chamber apart from our own, for presumably Lae'zel, Gale and Wyll and one other. Much more than some off the cuff banter, Wyll's timeline seems to be the bigger culprit, he doesn't mention the ship much and I always got the impression he'd been with the Tieflings for a while.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Companions - Things Just Don't Make Sense - 31/07/22 01:23 AM
Originally Posted by Tuco
Not sure what you mean? The Absolute has his own emblem.

These thralls used to have the medallions with the [three different] emblems of Cyric, Bhaal and Bane, unless something changed.

Amulet of the Absolute:. https://images.app.goo.gl/E6K7rwWNNzyTVtEz7
https://www.google.com/search?q=bg3+amulet+of+absolute&prmd=sivn&sxsrf=ALiCzsZCek2QLCHYBLmo9HsQdofR9_EHVA:1659230298826&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiXkr_E-qH5AhXCBjQIHSFSDx0Q_AUoAnoECAIQAg&biw=432&bih=812&dpr=2.5#imgrc=Nx2fL_GB4Vy57M

Check Nere's
https://www.google.com/search?q=bg3...w=432&prmd=sivn#imgrc=wf10MjVtUiLTgM
Posted By: JandK Re: Companions - Things Just Don't Make Sense - 31/07/22 01:25 AM
Originally Posted by Sozz
Somewhat related to Gale's remarks, we see every pod that the companions were held in, Astarion's is near where we find him, Karlach's is up river from where she's hiding, we potentially free Shadowheart from hers, and there are three four in the first chamber apart from our own, for presumably Lae'zel, Gale and Wyll and one other. Much more than some off the cuff banter, Wyll's timeline seems to be the bigger culprit, he doesn't mention the ship much and I always got the impression he'd been with the Tieflings for a while.

I was literally just reading something on reddit about Wyll's timeline. I'll copy/paste it here.

The following quote was written by someone named agouzov on reddit, and I think it's a good summary:

Quote
Here's my understanding of the sequence of events:

-Wyll is born to a noble family in Baldur's Gate. He is raised by a domineering, emotionally absent father.

-Wyll seeks a way to rebel, tries his hand at recreational thievery and is caught.

-His father decides to teach him a lesson and enrolls him in the Flaming Fist mercenary company, which is the main law-keeping military force in Baldur's Gate.

-Wyll proves an incompetent soldier, and is mocked and shunned by his new comrades in the Fist.

-While defending a small outlying village against a goblin attack, Wyll is beaten unconscious and left for dead. One of the goblins takes his eye as a trophy.

-A cambion lady named Mizora contacts Wyll and offers to make him a legendary hero, which would allow him to get revenge on the goblins, as well as show off to his father and former comrade in arms. Wyll accepts, promising his soul to the Nine Hells after his death as payment.

-Using his new powers, Wyll develops a reputation as a legendary hero. Stories about "the Blade of Frontiers" begin to circulate in the region.

-Wyll begins having second thoughts about the infernal contract and tells Mizora he wants to renegotiate. They have an argument, during which a mind flayer ship suddenly shows up and captures them both. Wyll gets a tadpole inserted in his eye.

-After the ship crashes, Wyll scampers off in search of Mizora and stumbles upon the Grove before Tav. His reputation as the Blade of Frontiers earns him a warm welcome there.

-Wyll meets Tav and joins their party.

-Mizora contacts Wyll through his Stone of Sending, telling him she was captured by goblins. She offers to let Wyll off the hook regarding his side of the contract if he comes to her rescue. Enticed by the prospect of keeping his warlock powers without losing his soul, Wyll tries to push Tav towards attacking the goblin camp, pretending he's doing it to protect the tieflings.

-When his secret motivations eventually become known, Wyll confesses everything and asks Tav for help rescuing Mizora, who has been shipped to the Moonrise Towers in the meantime.
Posted By: Sozz Re: Companions - Things Just Don't Make Sense - 31/07/22 01:38 AM
Right, I forgot about Mizora, that's the extra pod explained.

That's a pretty good timeline, given everything we can glean from the EA
Why Tiefling parents seem all Norman Rockwell, yet all tiefling children are into organized crime.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Companions - Things Just Don't Make Sense - 31/07/22 02:28 AM
Originally Posted by Van'tal
Why Tiefling parents seem all Norman Rockwell, yet all tiefling children are into organized crime.

Lol. So true.
Posted By: Tuco Re: Companions - Things Just Don't Make Sense - 31/07/22 02:50 AM
Originally Posted by Van'tal
Why Tiefling parents seem all Norman Rockwell, yet all tiefling children are into organized crime.
Well, the children are implied to be for the most part orphans and not their sons and daughters, but that aside, yeah...The contrast is a bit bizarre.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Companions - Things Just Don't Make Sense - 31/07/22 03:09 AM
Originally Posted by timebean
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Feel free to corect me, but as far as i know Intellect Devourer dont even have mouth, or teeth to nibble anything ... meaning, quite logicaly, this sentence cannot be taken litteraly and may be just Gale colorfull way of describing that you seemed dead.

.

This. Agree 100%.

Also, I personally left a bunch of dead/dying/thralled folks in the nautiloid and pods because I was trying to escape (I assume you all did too). So I am not irked with any of my companions that dod the same, Gale included. I also accidentally killed two people hooked up to weird chairs and turned another into a monster by pushing a button. Nobody is perfect.

Also there WERE intellect devourers running/scuttling around. And I DID wake up on the fllor with a head injury and the first thing I saw was a busted pod.

Jesus Christ…picking on this line is ridiculous. It is ALL there.

There is nothing wrong with Gale’s line, unless you want characters with no personality as your companions. Ie, exposition dumpers like in Kingdoms of Amular. Not liking him based on his personality is fine, of course.

The issue with me for Gale is where u meet him imho. Just popping out of a portal (sus) and right next to everyone else (boring).

Asterion’s knife pull is fine with me. He is a bad guy. If you don’t like it, kill him. Do agree with the vapor death tho. That would add flavor.

Shafowheart’s armor is annoying. Will mod it, personally.

Ok. Crucible's worth of blood is a metaphor for "When I saw you, you were lying in a pool of blood. Lots of blood.". Intellect Devourer nibbling at your ear is a metaphor for "There was an intellect devourer hovering near you."

Play the beginning again. You wake up. No pool of blood. You just say "oh my head.". Well. Yeah. You got infected. You've been through a lot.

Look around. No intellect devourers. Mind flayer? Yes. Thralls? Yes. Imps? Yes.

So all I'm saying is that it's not clear. It's a weird thing to have him say because at no point do we find ourselves in that circumstance. You can assume that is what he's referring to, but you don't really know and you can't clarify.

Also, the pods don't belong to anyone but Lae'zel and the PCs in the initial pod chamber. They are reserved for multiplayer. They do not belong to the origin characters. Start the game on 4 player mode and each player starts by 1 of the pods.
Posted By: Sozz Re: Companions - Things Just Don't Make Sense - 31/07/22 03:31 AM
Or it could be hyperbole. The guy is prone to purple prose. The pods could be for multiplayer, but how often does the multiplayer factor into the single-player game like that? Also you'll comment about others escaping if you click on them, what happens with you do that in multiplayer? I'll go out on a limb and say that every origin character will probably end up there if you decide to play them, even if that is kind of boring.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Companions - Things Just Don't Make Sense - 31/07/22 03:45 AM
Here's another point. In the movie scene, Lae'zel is the first to escape. She is perched on the only path you can take. Why does she stop you, but she didn't stop Gale?... Assuming Gale left one of the pods in that beginning chamber before you but after Lae'zel?

See? I always presumed Gale and Astarion and the others were elsewhere on the ship, perhaps the big pod chamber you find later. But then, Gale's comment makes no sense at all.

I'm just saying. It doesn't add up.
Posted By: Tuco Re: Companions - Things Just Don't Make Sense - 31/07/22 03:53 AM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Here's another point. In the movie scene, Lae'zel is the first to escape.
Nah, she's just the only one shown to escape in the cinematic. It doesn't mean she's the first or the only or anything else.
While Astarion conversely is implied to be someone who got free from his pod only after you, since he comments on the fact that he saw you passing by.
Originally Posted by timebean
Asterion’s knife pull is fine with me. He is a bad guy. If you don’t like it, kill him.
Oh if only we could ...
Sadly, Larian strictly forbids it, so they removed our "attack imediately" button. frown

Now we can either metagame, and kill him before we even talk to him ...
Or we can politely accept his apology, or let him sarcasticly mock the fact we are offended by his attack with smile on our face ... and then, and only then, after all is cleared and we are friends ... wel can split his skull in half.

Honestly if there is single thing REALLY WRONG about meeting our companions, its the fact that Astarion is THE ONLY ONE we cannot attack straight from the dialogue. -_-

We can even kill Gale, who just stepped out of portal and didnt interact with us in litteraly any way ...
In what universe is that so horrible crime, to deserve such fate ... especialy compared to litteral assault and atempt to murder, wich we are forced to "just accept"? laugh
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Companions - Things Just Don't Make Sense - 31/07/22 07:41 AM
Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Here's another point. In the movie scene, Lae'zel is the first to escape.
Nah, she's just the only one shown to escape in the cinematic. It doesn't mean she's the first or the only or anything else.
While Astarion conversely is implied to be someone who got free from his pod only after you, since he comments on the fact that he saw you passing by.

I still don't buy it. Astarion says "I saw you on the ship. You were with those tentacled freaks.". This implies the helm. That is the ONLY time we are with the mind flayers in any way helping them.

I don't know. I seem to be the only one who thinks the writing is confusing as a butt cheek with a face drawn on it, but to me it seems like things are said that never happened.

Let's bring up SH in her pod and how you need illithid powers now to open it. Same basic thing. No actual explanation. I've given possible reasons why it COULD make sense, and people bit my head off for it because, to them, I'm assuming something and it makes no sense. Well. Yes. I'm assuming. The whole freaking game makes you assume things all over the place.

I assume SH was thrown in the pod special from everyone else because the mind flayers knew she had the weapon.

I assume Gale meant he saw me on the floor outside my pod with an intellect devourer hovering over me even though there's NO blood (just checked) and no sign of an intellect devourer besides Us until you get clear of that whole area.

Astarion says he saw us with those tentacled freaks, but he was stuck in his pod. Right? So how'd he see us WITH them so that he'd assume we were WITH them? We must again assume his pod was where? Maybe suspended from the ceiling out of sight in the helm? Maybe?

We assume Gale didn't kill the goblins, but SH killed like 4 devourers by the crypt entrance by herself if you take that path... Somehow... So why wouldn't we assume Gale killed the goblins who are of the same cult as the mind flayers on the ship... Or are we assuming the mind flayers maybe picked up a TON if cultists of the Absolute on their attack run in Yartar? Even still, it's all assumption.

My point is, everything seems actually like it was just thrown out there without reason. I'm left with a lot of guessing and attempting to reason through things without enough details and evidence. Companions don't make sense. The environment doesn't make sense. The evidence doesn't add up to any real logical conclusion.

I have tried to write up BG3 as fan fic to make sense of it. I've tried now writing it up as a tabletop campaign to make sense of it. I've tried playing it over and over again to look for new details and such that I've missed, and it still doesn't make sense.

Again. Maybe it's just because it's EA, but I'm afraid it's not seems to me more like they're being like - Basically, who cares who the fishermen are on the beach or where they came from or why they were on the beach or in the water near that place? Who cares that there's no living village anywhere in the entire vicinity even though your character makes a comment that there's fresh water so there must be a settlement that all those fishermen came from? Who cares how a dozen intellect devourers died in the beach? They're just weak, baby monsters who die easily. Right?

Who cares that SH is a poster banner child for Shar? We'll pretend she's not. Who cares that Astarion pulls a knife on you? We'll have him laugh and smile and everyone will pretend he didn't. Who cares HOW he saw you with mind flayers from his pod helping them? Who cares why SH needs illithid powers to activate her pod? Who cares when Gale saw you in a huge pool of blood with a devourer near you? Who cares who killed the goblins?

Who cares what Damays means when he mentions an explosion he and his tiefling friend heard and want to go explore? Explosion? Can you elaborate? Can I go check it out too? Nope.

Who cares why Voss and Quedenos leave the Gith patrol to perform a mundane task like inform the other Gith that the weapon has been found when he could just kill you easily and take it and then bring it to Vlaakith himself?

I feel like it's an anime, and my son is telling me, "Dad. Stop. Don't question the anime."

Fine. If that's how this game is going to be, I'll just play it and not question the anime.
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by timebean
Asterion’s knife pull is fine with me. He is a bad guy. If you don’t like it, kill him.
Oh if only we could ...
Sadly, Larian strictly forbids it, so they removed our "attack imediately" button. frown

Now we can either metagame, and kill him before we even talk to him ...
Or we can politely accept his apology, or let him sarcasticly mock the fact we are offended by his attack with smile on our face ... and then, and only then, after all is cleared and we are friends ... wel can split his skull in half.

Honestly if there is single thing REALLY WRONG about meeting our companions, its the fact that Astarion is THE ONLY ONE we cannot attack straight from the dialogue. -_-

We can even kill Gale, who just stepped out of portal and didnt interact with us in litteraly any way ...
In what universe is that so horrible crime, to deserve such fate ... especialy compared to litteral assault and atempt to murder, wich we are forced to "just accept"? laugh
You can kill Astarion during the knife attack- just switch to SH and attack with her and If he isn't dead then, you are all in a fight. Attacking with SH does even make sense, since she threatens Astarion during the conversation. I always kill him that way.
So Astarion originally had an attack immediately option in his introduction and then Larian took it away? I have to wonder if they noticed a lot of people immediately killing him and decided to take away the choice to alleviate it, rather than trying to change the scene to something that wouldn't naturally instigate his murder.

It's so frustrating how non-existant Larian's check-in with us are. I wasn't part of the alpha testing for Wrath of the Righteous, but post release they were sending out surveys about what players did and didn't like. They even sent one about crusade mode just last month, and before they announced they were making a second season pass of expansion content, they sent out a survey asking about what people wanted in DLCs. That's more engagement post-development than Larian has come close to having.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Companions - Things Just Don't Make Sense - 31/07/22 12:28 PM
As I said. I am trying to think of my players as I rewrite the Tabletop version. I'm trying to make it so players would actually maybe want ANY of these origin characters in their party.

The only way to do that is for the characters to be a bit friendlier and a bit less... Well... Don't know how to put it... Stupid. Players need to have reasons to WANT them to join them.

So Shadowheart will try to lie to them, saying she is a cleric of a different, good, trickery goddess, and she'll lie and say she picked the armor off a corpse in some ruins. Astarion will try to act like a noble elf from Baldur's who is a victim and desperately needs their help. When they connect to his mind, he'll admit he's part of Cazador's Thieves Guild, but mean Cazador treats him so badly. Now he's free. Maybe the heroes can help him start a new life. No daggers unless the players pull them on him first.

And Gale will be straight forward and mostly honest with them, explaining that he saw them by the pod - again, had to rewrite the Prologue beginning to include them waking up in blood - and he had no spells and was too weak himself to help. And he feels badly about it.

I don't know what I'm going to do about Lae'zel. She's a jerk, and I can't really think of a good reason to convince players to want to have her join them. The only thing I can think of is having her say something about how they are connected. Something is admittedly different with their tadpoles, and perhaps together they can figure out what's happening. She's an expert, so it would be good for the PCs to take her with.

Wyll is the easiest, but even with him, the whole "oh... You what? Saw a devil in my mind. Nah. You're mistaken" thing has to go. In my experience, player don't like it when they know someone is OBVIOUSLY lying to them. They don't trust them, and they don't want to travel with them.

I plan on having Wyll admit he's a Warlock and has a fiend patron. "I'll tell you more about it later. I promise. Right now? Here? They think I'm a hero. Imagine what might happen if they learned I have a devil mistress as my patron. They don't need that right now. They're already discouraged and afraid. I bring them some hope, even if it is small. Please don't take that away from them."
Originally Posted by fylimar
Attacking with SH does even make sense, since she threatens Astarion during the conversation.
Exactly the reason i didnt include it. smile

Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
So Astarion originally had an attack immediately option in his introduction and then Larian took it away?
Yup ...
Thats one of strongest, and basicaly main reason why i keep complaining about Larian being really bad DM ...
Who just forces you to bad situation, and then give you set of really bad decisions to resolve it, once again forcing you to choose. frown

Originally Posted by GM4Him
Players need to have reasons to WANT them to join them.
I believe this isnt intended scenario from Larian ...
Look at the game as a whole, we arent suppose to be group of people who want to travel together ... we most likely shouldnt be even friendly ... we are suppose to be just bunch of completely different individuals, who are forced by things they cannot control to cooperate or die.

I believe they did this bcs it sounded like something else than we usualy get, and so we arent so devastated when our group will split at the end of Act I.
Posted By: Lyelle Re: Companions - Things Just Don't Make Sense - 31/07/22 01:18 PM
To me, it does make sense that Astarion thinks our Tav is in league with the mindflayers who captured him: It is implied that he saw us walking around the nautiloid while he was still trapped in his pod. Before some of the pods were damaged, the cultists we encountered were the only ones who could roam freely, aside from the mindflayers. So I think it is quite understandable that he assumes that our Tav is also a cultist, and should know about the parasites. Unlike Gale, he does not know anything about tadpoles and ceremorphosis, so interrogating a cultist would make sense.

Of course, putting a dagger to someones throat is clearly not a nice action, but it is something my Tavs could excuse under these circumstances, when everybody must be extremely tense.


As for the attack option: I think the option to attack should be there for every companion - or for none. Personally, I would not attack any of our companions, but if players want to choose this option, it should be equal for all companions.
Posted By: Tuco Re: Companions - Things Just Don't Make Sense - 31/07/22 01:24 PM
Originally Posted by Lyelle
To me, it does make sense that Astarion thinks our Tav is in league with the mindflayers who captured him: It is implied that he saw us walking around the nautiloid while he was still trapped in his pod. Before some of the pods were damaged, the cultists we encountered were the only ones who could roam freely, aside from the mindflayers. So I think it is quite understandable that he assumes that our Tav is also a cultist, and should know about the parasites. Unlike Gale, he does not know anything about tadpoles and ceremorphosis, so interrogating a cultist would make sense.
What makes little sense, then, is that under the assumption that you are one of the bad guys in league with mindflayers (except he just saw you killing other intellect devourers, by his own admission, but ok...) it would be a clever idea LURE US into making a kind gesture for him.


Then again, admittedly I'm not as terribly offended with Astarion daring to bare his fangs at me, the holy Protagonist, as some other people seem to be.
No, I have to admit I'm rather growing to dislike Astarion far more for the type of person he's proving to be on the long term, rather than for the bad first impression.
So far, I think he's the worst character in our party by a landslide. The other companions may be reticent, opportunists, single minded or what else, but no one comes close to it in being gratuitously mean spirited.

He's a whiny hypocrite that thinks it's incredibly amusing to mock, punish, kill or and inflict gratuitous suffering on others, but at the same time becomes incredibly touchy and melodramatic when he's the target of any of the aforementioned.
If that's their aim, then I accept that, but in that case, I don't think they're really getting that across very well. Personally, I feel like these characters wouldn't be coming together at all if the players didn't know this was a game and we needed a full party. I feel as though the characters have too much freedom for your idea of things to really work neatly. I find that for the "ragtag, conflict-filled group thrown together by circumstance" dynamic to really work, then they have to realy be pushed. But the situation as it stands allows everyone to go in their own way and pursue their own routes to a solution. But they don't, and they follow Tav because Tav is the protagonist.

Also, once they're in the party, we get plenty of opportunities to bond with them and get to know them more deeply, which goes against the idea that Larian doesn't want us to care when we're divided.
Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by Lyelle
To me, it does make sense that Astarion thinks our Tav is in league with the mindflayers who captured him: It is implied that he saw us walking around the nautiloid while he was still trapped in his pod. Before some of the pods were damaged, the cultists we encountered were the only ones who could roam freely, aside from the mindflayers. So I think it is quite understandable that he assumes that our Tav is also a cultist, and should know about the parasites. Unlike Gale, he does not know anything about tadpoles and ceremorphosis, so interrogating a cultist would make sense.
What makes little sense, then, is that under the assumption that you are one of the bad guys in league with mindflayers (except he just saw you killing other intellect devourers, by his own admission, but ok...) it would be a clever idea LURE US into making a kind gesture for him.


Then again, admittedly I'm not as terribly offended with Astarion daring to bare his fangs at me, the holy Protagonist, as some other people seem to be.
No, I have to admit I'm rather growing to dislike Astarion far more for the type of person he's proving to be on the long term, rather than for the bad first impression.
So far, I think he's the worst character in our party by a landslide. The other companions may be reticent, opportunists, single minded or what else, but no one comes close to it in being gratuitously mean spirited.

He's a whiny hypocrite that thinks it's incredibly amusing to mock, punish, kill or and inflict gratuitous suffering on others, but at the same time becomes incredibly touchy and melodramatic when he's the target of any of the aforementioned.

He's definitely the worst person, but at least as a character he's broadly consistent. He's a cruel, entitled asshole. Genuinely evil in that small, petty way that keeps him from being a villain, but allows him to be eminently hateable. He's a character I buy entirely as evil. How well that really matches up with his backstory I'm not entirely sold on, but overall it works.
Originally Posted by Lyelle
As for the attack option: I think the option to attack should be there for every companion - or for none. Personally, I would not attack any of our companions, but if players want to choose this option, it should be equal for all companions.
It is ...
In described case Shadowheart was used more as an example, since she it "the most probably present one". wink

Personaly i believe that forgiving Astarion for his actions is perfectly valid approach ... aswell as killing him right there.
And if Larian indeed want to create something that (paraphrasing their words) "give us same feeling as playing tabletop" we should be provided by the most basic options in every conversation.

The most basic options are:
Acceptance, refusal, question and ridicule. (based on most BioWare games)

In situation with Astarion we can either accept the situation, or accept the situation, or accept the situation ... and that sucks.
Originally Posted by Tuco
He's a whiny hypocrite that thinks it's incredibly amusing to mock, punish, kill or and inflict gratuitous suffering on others, but at the same time becomes incredibly touchy and melodramatic when he's the target of any of the aforementioned.
If this bothers you, i dont understand how can you stand Shadowheart. O_o
Posted By: Tuco Re: Companions - Things Just Don't Make Sense - 31/07/22 01:59 PM
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by Tuco
He's a whiny hypocrite that thinks it's incredibly amusing to mock, punish, kill or and inflict gratuitous suffering on others, but at the same time becomes incredibly touchy and melodramatic when he's the target of any of the aforementioned.
If this bothers you, i dont understand how can you stand Shadowheart. O_o
Not that I'm EXCEEDINGLY fond of Shadowheart to start with, but I can't even begin to imagine why you are saying it as if you scored a gotcha. They are not even remotely comparable?
Shadowheart doesn't enjoy when you are gratuitous mean to others, she actively endorses when you avoid gratuitous conflicts (it doesn't matter if it's by diplomacy, intimidation or deception), she's consistently against being cruel toward animal and she reacts positively to protecting children.

What parts of this make her worse than Astarion "let's fuck up people for the evlulz" , exactly?
Originally Posted by Tuco
why you are saying it as if you scored a gotcha.
Nah i dont ... if we get there you will find out tho, either by explicit: "A-HA!" ... or by much more subtle and frequently used: " :P "

Originally Posted by Tuco
What parts of this make her worse than Astarion "let's fuck up people for the evlulz" , exactly?
Anyway ...
I didnt say she is in any way "worse" ... especialy not in context of being bad person, but she is also hypocrite as fuck, actualy in my opinion she may be even more hypocritic than Astarion.
And therefore i concider her yet another unbearable companion, nothing more there.
Posted By: Lyelle Re: Companions - Things Just Don't Make Sense - 31/07/22 02:23 PM
Originally Posted by Tuco
What makes little sense, then, is that under the assumption that you are one of the bad guys in league with mindflayers (except he just saw you killing other intellect devourers, by his own admission, but ok...) it would be a clever idea LURE US into making a kind gesture for him.

I don't think he really saw us killing intellect devourers, I think he might say this to flatter our Tav. I think he pretends to be some helpless noble, who can't defend himself, and our mighty Tav has to save him. So to me, luring us into making a kind gesture for him is exactly what he does.


As a player, I must admit I like the emotional rollercoaster my poor Tavs (generally kind and helpful) must be on, between being angry at him for his selfish/arrogant and sometimes spiteful behaviour, feeling sorry for him when they learn about Cazador, and being charmed by him.
I always have him join the party, because I really want to know where this is going. It is strongly implied that he was not even a nice guy before he became a vampire spawn, but I wonder if we can have a bit of a positive influence on him. I'm always up for character development.
Posted By: Tuco Re: Companions - Things Just Don't Make Sense - 31/07/22 02:27 PM
But I don’t care about her “being a hypocrite” as a general character flaw.

Wyll is a hypocrite too, in some way, but he’s not the kind of hypocrite that laughs gleefully when someone else suffers or dies without need or reason, only to throw a temper tantrum if seconds later someone says a word about him being a slave, feeding on rats, etc.

It’s the SPECIFIC context of Astarion’s hypocrisy that makes him genuinely dislikable to me. Ita matter of basic human decency rather than being the Honorary President of the “Coherence at all costs” Club.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Companions - Things Just Don't Make Sense - 31/07/22 02:31 PM
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by fylimar
Attacking with SH does even make sense, since she threatens Astarion during the conversation.
Exactly the reason i didnt include it. smile

Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
So Astarion originally had an attack immediately option in his introduction and then Larian took it away?
Yup ...
Thats one of strongest, and basicaly main reason why i keep complaining about Larian being really bad DM ...
Who just forces you to bad situation, and then give you set of really bad decisions to resolve it, once again forcing you to choose. frown

Originally Posted by GM4Him
Players need to have reasons to WANT them to join them.
I believe this isnt intended scenario from Larian ...
Look at the game as a whole, we arent suppose to be group of people who want to travel together ... we most likely shouldnt be even friendly ... we are suppose to be just bunch of completely different individuals, who are forced by things they cannot control to cooperate or die.

I believe they did this bcs it sounded like something else than we usualy get, and so we arent so devastated when our group will split at the end of Act I.

You've again touched on my point. I would LOVE for the origin characters to give me good reasons for us to adventure together. Thus far, SH does, but this is negated if she lies and people suspect her of being a backstabbing Sharran. I'd take my chances without her if I wasn't honestly metagaming. At the very least, I'd travel with her only to the grove and then BYE.

Astarion is the same. Gale... Yeah. Okay. I'd kinda feel more comfortable, but I still expect him to stab me in the back at any moment. Same with Wyll and Lae.

In short. I would LOVE the opportunity to question SH, and find out she's a Sharran right up front - if I succeed in Religion and/or Insight checks to see through her lies. But then have her say something like how we need each other. Can't I look past my prejudices. There's something weird going on. We're connected. Let's try to work together at least for now until we figure out what's happening. Basically, ha e her and/or others give me solid reasons to put up with them and at least work with them for necessity sake.
Originally Posted by Tuco
It’s the SPECIFIC context of Astarion’s hypocrisy that makes him genuinely dislikable to me.
I see ...

To me this kinda makes sense.
I admit its twisted and bisare sense ... but it is there ... Astarion being and Elf allready shouldnt have strong feeling towards other races, at least as far as i know, you cant really concider people who lives 1/10 of your lifetime at best to be equal to you ... or in better words, you are asking for some serious trauma if you do.
That is even strenghtened by his Vampirism, since now he is practicaly imortal ...

Now aplify that even futher by the fact that he was tortured and humiliated by his master for several centuries ...

And here you have it.
Of course we can disagree, but to me this is perfect explanation for him being ... well, the way he is.
There arent much "long-lived" creatures made well in curent fantasy, so i must admit that i welcome this change.

//Edit:
Originally Posted by GM4Him
In short. I would LOVE the opportunity to question SH, and find out she's a Sharran right up front - if I succeed in Religion and/or Insight checks to see through her lies.
Yeah, me too.
Originally Posted by GM4Him
You've again touched on my point. I would LOVE for the origin characters to give me good reasons for us to adventure together. Thus far, SH does, but this is negated if she lies and people suspect her of being a backstabbing Sharran. I'd take my chances without her if I wasn't honestly metagaming. At the very least, I'd travel with her only to the grove and then BYE.

Astarion is the same. Gale... Yeah. Okay. I'd kinda feel more comfortable, but I still expect him to stab me in the back at any moment. Same with Wyll and Lae.

In short. I would LOVE the opportunity to question SH, and find out she's a Sharran right up front - if I succeed in Religion and/or Insight checks to see through her lies. But then have her say something like how we need each other. Can't I look past my prejudices. There's something weird going on. We're connected. Let's try to work together at least for now until we figure out what's happening. Basically, ha e her and/or others give me solid reasons to put up with them and at least work with them for necessity sake.
^This. It truly would be shocking to me if none of this were possible in the final version of the game.
Originally Posted by Madscientist
I agree to almost everything that has been said:



- Ignore every argument that involves time. There is no time in the game. Nobody cares if you rest 100 times and where you go first. They only care about your choice here and now, like if you kill or help an NPC.
PS: This makes things with time element (e.g. burning inn) even more annoying.

Why I will never be able to enjoy this game. Not having time makes everything pointless; no urgency, no risks, not immersive. Boggles the mind to craft this amazing detailed world and not tie it to a basic calendar or even just simple day/night mood.
But hey, we have super detailed instrument playing bard concerts....I dont understand Larian's hate for world <time> immersion. Not having this in a D&D game? really?!?
Originally Posted by mr_planescapist
But hey, we have super detailed instrument playing bard concerts....I dont understand Larian's hate for world <time> immersion. Not having this in a D&D game? really?!?
Ugh... Alfira. She's out of touch with reality and her song lyrics are terrible. She sneers at Tav & team, tells them not every problem can be solved with swords, then invades their camp and drinks their booze after they used *gasp* swords to save all their asses from goblins or *gasp* swords to save all their asses from Kagha's shadow druids.

And on the topic of time... I think Larian wrote themselves into a corner with the camp nighttime events and they don't want to admit it. frown They can't really implement day/night cycles if all long rests are night-specific. If they were willing to adjust camp events and their asociated quests, it wouldn't be hard to go from there, because there is already pseudo-time tracking for spells.

Most of the changes the players asked for only happened after media reviews pointed out the same issue that had been debated 50 times on the forums, so unless a bigger fuss is made over the lack of time passing... I don't think we'll see a change. frown
Originally Posted by Neleothesze
She sneers at Tav & team, tells them not every problem can be solved with swords, then ...
You dont even need to go to "then" ...
Alfira herself tells you story about her master playing the lute and singing, so they didnt hear Gnolls that were attacking them until it was too late ... that alone is awesome story for case when "stupid swords" would be thousand times more usefull than "important music" ...

Im so sad Larian dont allow us to smash it over her face. frown

Originally Posted by Neleothesze
And on the topic of time... I think Larian wrote themselves into a corner with the camp nighttime events and they don't want to admit it. frown
Aswell as players are unwilling to admit that beyond aestetic it would add nothing.

There is plently of seemingly timeless RPGs ... none of them suffered for it.
People here just have to stop living in the past, this isnt Baldur's Gate, nor Baldur's Gate II. i understand you would like it, but it isnt and it was never ment do be.
Posted By: Tuco Re: Companions - Things Just Don't Make Sense - 31/07/22 05:06 PM
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Aswell as players are unwilling to admit that beyond aestetic it would add nothing.

There is plently of seemingly timeless RPGs ... none of them suffered for it.
Both claims wrong, incidentally.
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by Neleothesze
And on the topic of time... I think Larian wrote themselves into a corner with the camp nighttime events and they don't want to admit it. frown
Aswell as players are unwilling to admit that beyond aestetic it would add nothing.

There is plently of seemingly timeless RPGs ... none of them suffered for it.
Wrong.
Time tracking would be useful for a lot of the existing quests: the grove ritual, the goblin attack, the burning building, the Zhentarim leaving their hideout, the poisoned gnome, the toxic fumes in the collapsed cave, etc.

Some of these quests give warnings before failure, some fail automatically, some aren't even implemented properly and the *actual event* never occurs.

It's not (only) nostalgia, it's asking for quest/narrative consistency as it relates to time. And while implementing the passage of time, they could add a fatigue system which would be a neat way of encouraging long rests (which would then offer all these cool cinematics they spent so much time working on).
Posted By: Tuco Re: Companions - Things Just Don't Make Sense - 31/07/22 05:28 PM
The claim that it would be "nostalgia" is also hilarious in light of the fact that several recent notable releases had it.
Originally Posted by Neleothesze
Time tracking would be useful for a lot of the existing quests: the grove ritual, the goblin attack, the burning building, the Zhentarim leaving their hideout, the poisoned gnome, the toxic fumes in the collapsed cave, etc.
What you are describing here are timed events ...
They can easily be implemented in curent system by simply adding number of Long Rests (aka Days) into quest log ... and implementing apropriate effects, once their timer reach 0.

Day/Night cicle is something (not-so-entirely, but still) different ...
People required option to move around the map "in the night" ... there was even some suggestion around here so we can simply skip rest of the day, so we can move around in the night ...
Purely for aestetic purposes, since people were talking how odd it seems that "Drow attack the Grove during daylight" ...
Therefore they obviously wanted to let the event exactly as it is, just move it half day later.

Yes, there was even more complex suggestions, where people demanded ingame clock that would represent REAL time flow ...
But if that would include day/night guard/shop shifts ... different creatures you could meet ... spells actualy lasting "one day" if they are suppose to ... and timed events mentioned earlier ...
I agree it would be freaking awesome ... but it would also require lots of additional time and resources. :-/

I aree tho, that it would be most polite from Larian to ask their new Comunity Manager (since we finaly have one) to tell us if they were even thinking about this, and if so what (and why) was their decision ... this one-sided comunication is indeed frustrating as fuck.

Originally Posted by Neleothesze
It's not (only) nostalgia
I presume it depends on poster. smile
For some (and i could name, but moderators wouldnt like it), it most definietly is. laugh

Originally Posted by Neleothesze
And while implementing the passage of time, they could add a fatigue system which would be a neat way of encouraging long rests (which would then offer all these cool cinematics they spent so much time working on).
Maybe im naive ... i mean, in this aswell as other topics ...
But i still believe that some kind of fatigue is planned, and they just want to have as much data about people resting as possible to not make it too loose, or too restrictive ... otherwise, what for would be those potions against exhaustion ... since Berserker Barbarian dont get any? smile

---
Originally Posted by Tuco
Both claims wrong, incidentally.
Originally Posted by Alexlotr
Wrong.
Lets trade quality for quality in this argue:
Nope.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Companions - Things Just Don't Make Sense - 31/07/22 06:14 PM
"Timed Events" don't have to be harsh. Using a Time Trigger is exactly what I mean about meeting the origin companions where we do if you long rest before meeting Astarion and/or Gale. In particular Astarion.

You don't long rest and meet them where they are currently.

You long rest before Astarion encounter and maybe meet him by the crypt or something like that. You can ask him What's he been doing since the crash? He says he's been exploring the region. Spotted lots of enemies lurking about and is scared. Decided the crypt area at least looked more safe, but then spotted mercenaries. Thank goodness MC came along.

Gale. Maybe something similar to now. He pops out of the portal. You can ask what he's been doing for a day? Trying to find a healer, but enemies everywhere. Then he launches into his mirror image talk about how weird it is that we haven't started turning. He says you should team up and figure it out together.

Couple quick new dialogues and maybe different locations based on time would make all the difference.
[/spoiler]It is quite possible that Tav's actions will influence the development of the origin characters. How much is anyone's guess.

I have only recently (patch8) run with Gale and Astarian (since I solved the CTD issue).


Since Astarian is on the hot seat:


I find him to be less annoying than I imagined him to be, but still not someone I would associate with by choice.

200 years ago he was a Magistrate, ie lawful...but then he was turned and now a fugitive of the law and why I categorize him as neutral now.


I keep hearing that he likes to torture people. I haven't seen it yet, so don't spoil that please.

I did get the story that his Master tortured him, and forcing him to "get" his master the "kindest souls". Of course as a spawn, he explains that he was powerless to disobey.

His sarcasm in recounting the tail indicates (to me) that this was something he did not want to do, nor approve of..."There are monsters worse than Mindflayers".

Are people misinterpreting this? He was defiantly a victim of torture for two centuries. Now if he has approved of torturous acts that Tav has done, well I wouldn't know.


He is absolutely a hypocrite, and Tav points this out to him when he seems reluctant to help others..."No one helped me" is his justification.


Does he go out of his way to harm others...I have seen no evidence of this...yet perhaps..."I'm not a Monster you know".

He gets his blood from animals, yet tries to steal a sip when he feels weakened. I really get the impression that he wants to believe that he hasn't lost every shred of his humanity...if he ever had it. He was beaten for a ruling he made as Magistrate so it doesn't appear that he was ever empathetic for others.

He is beyond selfish for sure. Can Astarian grow a spine and be willing to put his own well being on the line for others? I dunno.

@GM4Him
Indeed ... but time flow, and timed events are still two separate topics ... that can indeed work well together, but also can be implemented separately. smile

//Edit:
Originally Posted by Van'tal
He gets his blood from animals, yet tries to steal a sip when he feels weakened.
There was actualy deeper reason for this. smile
But we arent suppose to know (yet) since we cant play as Origin characters. wink
@Van'tal Without spoiling the game for you: there is at least one instance where he approves of Tav torturing a man, another where he encourages Tav to submit to being tortured for his pleasure, one where he confesses that his master had them both submit to torture and to torture others...
...for me, it's a wonder Astarion is still (somewhat) sane but also able to fake being normal for so long.
He's traumatized and I feel bad knowing what he went through - and still going through - but he's still a elitist, racist, sadistic, deeply disturbed individual.

Like GM4Him mentioned in some of his posts, in PnP, if he didn't fake it (and fake it better than what we get ingame) players would see such NPCs as dangerous or untrustworthy... and either kill them or refuse to take them along. smile

(But he's got a good VA, his stats are good, his bite is good, his character design is sexy, so until he tries to kill Tav for real - not these half-assed attempts, he's staying with the team. He's a sort of... disaggreable, morally-revolting eye candy. Like Lae'zel. laugh
There's a stake with his name on it if he ever tries to betray Tav&team to Cazador; ...though being able to put a boot up his arse whenever he starts with the racist remarks would be such a plus. Larian, please!)

Spoiler with locations:
Shattered sanctum - guy on the rack; Shattered sanctum - priest of Loviathar; Camp - talk after bite;
Originally Posted by Neleothesze
@Van'tal Without spoiling the game for you: there is at least one instance where he approves of Tav torturing a man, another where he encourages Tav to submit to being tortured for his pleasure, one where he confesses that his master had them both submit to torture and to torture others...
...for me, it's a wonder Astarion is still (somewhat) sane but also able to fake being normal for so long.
He's traumatized and I feel bad knowing what he went through - and still going through - but he's still a elitist, racist, sadistic, deeply disturbed individual.

Like GM4Him mentioned in some of his posts, in PnP, if he didn't fake it (and fake it better than what we get ingame) players would see such NPCs as dangerous or untrustworthy... and either kill them or refuse to take them along. smile

(But he's got a good VA, his stats are good, his bite is good, his character design is sexy, so until he tries to kill Tav for real - not these half-assed attempts, he's staying with the team. He's a sort of... disaggreable, morally-revolting eye candy. Like Lae'zel. laugh
There's a stake with his name on it if he ever tries to betray Tav&team to Cazador; ...though being able to put a boot up his arse whenever he starts with the racist remarks would be such a plus. Larian, please!)

Spoiler with locations:
Shattered sanctum - guy on the rack; Shattered sanctum - priest of Loviathar; Camp - talk after bite;


I on the other hand hate everything about Astarion- voice and looks included. I agree with Tuco on the characterisation and I will add, while the voice actor does a good job in making Astarion sound like the whiny entitled bastard, he is, the voice is just plain annoying for me.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Companions - Things Just Don't Make Sense - 31/07/22 09:14 PM
I actually like Astarion, which is partially why the intro bugs me. If he didn't try to kill me, I would gladly bring him along and even when I find out he's a strange vampire spawn, I'd maybe think of trying to help him except he again tries to kill me by almost biting me in my sleep.

Consequently, Sebille in DOS2 is the ONLY origin character I rejected immediately. Why? She put a needle to my throat. Why would I want to take her with me? The narrator even says I'm not sure how I'm going to sleep with her around.
Originally Posted by GM4Him
I actually like Astarion, which is partially why the intro bugs me. If he didn't try to kill me, I would gladly bring him along and even when I find out he's a strange vampire spawn, I'd maybe think of trying to help him except he again tries to kill me by almost biting me in my sleep.

Consequently, Sebille in DOS2 is the ONLY origin character I rejected immediately. Why? She put a needle to my throat. Why would I want to take her with me? The narrator even says I'm not sure how I'm going to sleep with her around.

After multiple attempts to get through DOS2 with the companions, I ended up just using Lone Wolf perk and going solo. I could not stand a single one of the companions in that game.
Posted By: Lyelle Re: Companions - Things Just Don't Make Sense - 31/07/22 11:39 PM
Originally Posted by Neleothesze
He's traumatized and I feel bad knowing what he went through - and still going through - but he's still a elitist, racist, sadistic, deeply disturbed individual.

I think Astarion is definitely a character who will not leave you indifferent. On the one hand, I feel sorry for him, he is clearly traumatized, and what has happened to him is horrible. On the other hand, the character traits you mention are indeed repulsive, and I must admit I catch myself becoming a bit angry whenever he says something stupid.

So on paper, he should be a character I would not necessarily take in my party - but actually, I keep him in my party every time, and most times, my Tav will even romance him (because I really want to see where this is going, especially with a "nice" Tav).

To me, it's intriguing that despite all of his flaws, there is still something about him. Something that makes me wish my kind hearted Tav could have a bit of a positive influence on him, and hoping he would reconsider his behaviour and attitude in the course of the game (as I said before, I'm always up for character development).

I think Neil Newbon's excellent voice acting contributes significantly to this, he gives Astarion a lot of nuance and depth. I am very impressed by his range, his Astarion is seductive, arrogant, sometimes vulnerable - and also really terrifying when your Tav mocks his trauma (I have not tried this myself, but I have seen it on YouTube. He can be really threatening).
I like that after some time, you know when Astarion is honest or when he seems to hide behind a facade, just by some subtle nuances in his voice. And of course, the animation/acting is great.
(And yes, I must admit that to me, Astarion's character design is indeed attractive. Everyone in our party is good-looking).

The dialogue scenes I like the most are those where we get to see a different side of our companions (I don't know if this qualifies as a spoiler, but I'll use the spoiler tag, just in case):
One example for Astarion would be the stargazing scene, which is, unfortunately, very easy to miss (I think it triggers before talking to Nettie, but after talking to Zorru about the githyanki creche): When our Tav suggests they could keep travelling together, after they have found the creche, Astarion replies "Good.. I don't want you to run off just yet." And continues that he needs to get some air, and clear his head, looking quite confused. To me, he seems to be genuinely confused about his emotions/thoughts, that maybe he starts to care about our Tav, somehow. Since this scene can play before or after the bite scene, I don't think he necessarily only thinks about "dinner".

I am curious where Astarion's character arc will lead.
Posted By: JandK Re: Companions - Things Just Don't Make Sense - 01/08/22 01:11 AM
Personality aside, he's one heck of a rogue. Definitely one of the better built NPCs, in my opinion. Mechanically speaking, that is.

Also, for what it's worth, I don't think his apology is as fake as has been suggested.
Originally Posted by JandK
Personality aside, he's one heck of a rogue. Definitely one of the better built NPCs, in my opinion. Mechanically speaking, that is.

Also, for what it's worth, I don't think his apology is as fake as has been suggested.
+1
I take Astarion for his mechanics, not his winning personality. But I am intrigued to see where Larian takes Lae'zel and Astarion (hopefully not the same places they took Sebille, Fane, and Red Prince).
Posted By: OcO Re: Companions - Things Just Don't Make Sense - 01/08/22 01:42 AM
Ok please correct me if I'm wrong here, but there is no good part to Astarion. He is undead. There is no personality or soul left in him. He is an artificially animated meat bag. "He" could not have been tortured for the past 100 years or whatever because "He" ceased to exist the moment he was made a spawn. Kill Cazadore to free him and all you get is Astarion as a full and more powerful undead. The only way he comes back to who he use to be is the use of a Wish spell.

There is no gray here for Astarion, undead are evil and soulless(literally). The only realistic way helping Astarion out ends up is with him turning Tav into his own vampire spawn mind controlled minion once freed from Cazador and a full vamp.

Personally I find Astarion to be the worst written and conceptualized companion in the game.
Posted By: Lyelle Re: Companions - Things Just Don't Make Sense - 01/08/22 01:45 AM
Originally Posted by Zerubbabel
But I am intrigued to see where Larian takes Lae'zel and Astarion (hopefully not the same places they took Sebille, Fane, and Red Prince).

I am very curious about Lae'zels character arc,too. How will she react when she discovers that the githjanki never had an intent (or possibility) to cure her, and that "purification" means death?

In my first playthrough, I would not take Lae'zel in my party very often, because I was a bit annoyed by her arrogant, harsh behaviour (well, Astarion is arrogant, too, but at least he would not try to order my Tav to do something). When I finally let her join my party and talked to her, it was very interesting to learn more about her, to see where she is coming from.

She grew up in a society where she is constantly told the githjanki are superior to everyone else, where ruthlessness is rewarded, and she has little to none experience with people outside her own society. She practically worships her queen and believes her to be perfect, she deeply believes what she is told.
I was surprised when I realized how young she must be for a githjanki, and I think this shows in her enthusiasm when she talks about her wish to finally become a kith`rak and ride her own red dragon. And when she talks about her crèche, she almost sounds a bit homesick. Although my helpful, friendly Tav would disagree with her most of the time, she would feel empathy for her.

That does not mean I would let my Tav act contrary to her own convictions; I will still choose the options I have in mind for my Tav, even though they will certainly earn me Lae'zel's (or Astarion's, or sometimes Shadowheart's) disapproval.
Posted By: JandK Re: Companions - Things Just Don't Make Sense - 01/08/22 01:56 AM
Originally Posted by Lyelle
How will she react when she discovers that the githjanki never had an intent (or possibility) to cure her, and that "purification" means death?

Have a little faith in the zaithisk. It's real, I just know it.
Posted By: Lyelle Re: Companions - Things Just Don't Make Sense - 01/08/22 02:05 AM
Originally Posted by JandK
Originally Posted by Lyelle
How will she react when she discovers that the githjanki never had an intent (or possibility) to cure her, and that "purification" means death?

Have a little faith in the zaithisk. It's real, I just know it.

Yes, nobody ever complained that it did not work wink
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Companions - Things Just Don't Make Sense - 01/08/22 02:39 AM
Originally Posted by OcO
Ok please correct me if I'm wrong here, but there is no good part to Astarion. He is undead. There is no personality or soul left in him. He is an artificially animated meat bag. "He" could not have been tortured for the past 100 years or whatever because "He" ceased to exist the moment he was made a spawn. Kill Cazadore to free him and all you get is Astarion as a full and more powerful undead. The only way he comes back to who he use to be is the use of a Wish spell.

There is no gray here for Astarion, undead are evil and soulless(literally). The only realistic way helping Astarion out ends up is with him turning Tav into his own vampire spawn mind controlled minion once freed from Cazador and a full vamp.

Personally I find Astarion to be the worst written and conceptualized companion in the game.

I think we're going to learn that this is actually not true. All of it. Typical vampire spawn? Yes. But there's more to Astarion than him being a typical vampire spawn.

For 1, he has infernal tattoos on his back. I think he's some sort of experiment Cazador has been playing with, and he received some devil assistance with it. Perhaps the reason the mind flayers took him was because his soul was put back, returned from Avernus where it went when he died, in his undead body prior to the abduction, and now the tadpole has twisted him into something even more unusual. Who knows?

Either way, I think the whole point of Astarion IS that he is not some soulless undead monster, but he has been somehow turned into a half living, half undead being - prior to the tadpole. Why else would Cazador treat him so unusually?

Or he's totally lying about everything and he actually is Cazador, playing with you and making you think he's got a soul. Lol
Originally Posted by Lyelle
Originally Posted by Zerubbabel
But I am intrigued to see where Larian takes Lae'zel and Astarion (hopefully not the same places they took Sebille, Fane, and Red Prince).

I am very curious about Lae'zels character arc,too. How will she react when she discovers that the githjanki never had an intent (or possibility) to cure her, and that "purification" means death?

In my first playthrough, I would not take Lae'zel in my party very often, because I was a bit annoyed by her arrogant, harsh behaviour (well, Astarion is arrogant, too, but at least he would not try to order my Tav to do something). When I finally let her join my party and talked to her, it was very interesting to learn more about her, to see where she is coming from.

She grew up in a society where she is constantly told the githjanki are superior to everyone else, where ruthlessness is rewarded, and she has little to none experience with people outside her own society. She practically worships her queen and believes her to be perfect, she deeply believes what she is told.
I was surprised when I realized how young she must be for a githjanki, and I think this shows in her enthusiasm when she talks about her wish to finally become a kith`rak and ride her own red dragon. And when she talks about her crèche, she almost sounds a bit homesick. Although my helpful, friendly Tav would disagree with her most of the time, she would feel empathy for her.

That does not mean I would let my Tav act contrary to her own convictions; I will still choose the options I have in mind for my Tav, even though they will certainly earn me Lae'zel's (or Astarion's, or sometimes Shadowheart's) disapproval.
+1.
I hope they balance the flawed, sheltered aspect of Lae'zel with the brutal, ruthless, borderline cultist mindset she has been educated to have. I think Lae'zel and Astarion represent the most overtly cruel and brutal members of the party, and I hope one gets a path to redemption, while the other just doesn't have good within them. I'm not sure who I would prefer to be which one, but I would love to see different paths for evil characters based on personality. I also think it would add realism. Some people ARE redeemable, no matter how evil they may seem, and it would be a very satisfying character arc. Still, other people are NOT redeemable, and it would add to the experience of independent characters for someone to remain cruel, despite your best efforts. Especially if you have both in your party as a "good" player... to succeed in redeeming one and fail in redeeming another would give a level of earned satisfaction to the redemption process, and a sense of gravity to the independent decision-making of the characters.
Posted By: Tuco Re: Companions - Things Just Don't Make Sense - 01/08/22 04:02 AM
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Lets trade quality for quality in this argue:
Nope.
Well, it's not my fault if you have the memory of a goldfish.
The topic has been argued to death and back a million times already and you were often there for the ride. It's not reasonable to expect to get a personal summary of every past conversation only because you conveniently dismiss it with "It's just cosmetic".

When in fact it's not. It's so NOT only cosmetic that paradoxically it happen to have non-cosmetic implications even even when initially implemented only with the goal of being cosmetic.

The claim that no game in the past suffered for the lack of day/night cycle is also opinable at best. Plenty of those who lacked the feature were diminished by it. At best it can be argued that they were not diminished to the point of becoming bad games... Which wiill also be true for BG3, probably.
It still doesn't make it an ideal design solution for what's supposed to be an immersive D&D experience.
Originally Posted by GM4Him
For 1, he has infernal tattoos on his back. I think he's some sort of experiment Cazador has been playing with, and he received some devil assistance with it. Perhaps the reason the mind flayers took him was because his soul was put back, returned from Avernus where it went when he died, in his undead body prior to the abduction, and now the tadpole has twisted him into something even more unusual. Who knows?

Either way, I think the whole point of Astarion IS that he is not some soulless undead monster, but he has been somehow turned into a half living, half undead being - prior to the tadpole. Why else would Cazador treat him so unusually?

Or he's totally lying about everything and he actually is Cazador, playing with you and making you think he's got a soul. Lol

If Astarion is Cazador, I will shit myself in sheer astonishment and upload it to the forum.

(Please don't ban me; I'm only joking... or AM I?)
Quote: I on the other hand hate everything about Astarion- voice and looks included. I agree with Tuco on the characterisation and I will add, while the voice actor does a good job in making Astarion sound like the whiny entitled bastard, he is, the voice is just plain annoying for me.

The same thing happened to me with Lae'zel.

I didn't take her into my party to be her best friend, rather was intrigued and tolerant out of pure curiosity on how they would portray this exotic race.

Hours and hours of her bitching finally stepped on my last nerve, so I leave her in the cage...or shoot the bottom out and surprisingly she gets owned by the Tieflings.


Now with Astarian, viewing him objectively, he is a mess...and his charm? Not there for me.

The Sado-Masacism may just be a wink to the sexual kink that is clearly evident (but not mainstream) in our own society...I ignore this.


Would he perform non-consensual acts of cruelty on others?...still not convinced, but neither am I dismissive.

I have for the first time seen him as a human being (turned aside). When I tell him its OK to defend himself against the "monster hunter", the party expresses doubts about his presence. If I respond that I will not view him as a monster, than the mood lightens, and the party excepts him at arms length.

This is what made me wonder if our actions effect our companions.

Is this the reason for this incredibly huge dialog tree?


This game is a FAR cry from other games where I looked forward to spending time with the NPCs....this is for sure.

I seriously have no confidence that Larion can make a single character that I view as anything more than someone I work with (a true friend). Wyll being a possible exception (friend-wise).

Doubly so with females...that is a shame really. I enjoy having an appealing female in the party.
Unrelated Meme
Originally Posted by Van'tal
Doubly so with females...that is a shame really. I enjoy having an appealing female in the party.
Wrex moment

Edit: In case it wasn't clear, I mean this in good fun as a joke, not to mock or correct
GIve me Tali'Zorah and I will be happy.

Wrex can tank...my favorite characters to make have been tanky, but for Wrex I will adjust.

Wrex would probably say "Don't tank me".
Originally Posted by Van'tal
GIve me Tali'Zorah and I will be happy.

Wrex can tank...my favorite characters to make have been tanky, but for Wrex I will adjust.
+1 for Tali.
Originally Posted by Lyelle
I must admit I catch myself becoming a bit angry whenever he says something stupid.
Now just imagine you could told him that ...
Wont that be divine? O:)
Speaking of appealing females:

In a time where game romance was unheard of, Planescape Torment offered an option: Fall-From-Grace.

Don't tell Jenifer Hale this, but as much as I have enjoyed her company in games, she seems a little full of herself.


Now there is disagreeable Annah, who exchanges very amusing barbs with Morte the skull...who continues to flirt with her.

Toward the end...just as we are going to face, what may be our end:

She blurts out that she loves me.


Spits coffee...blink...!?!

I'm thinking "So this whole time, this cloud of daggers that you wear is just protection against getting hurt?"

...and she wants to love The Nameless One?...who has a very tarnished history of how he uses women.

I was totally disarmed...that sneaky little rogue went and back stabbed me with Cupid's arrow...in a time you got awarded damage boosts.
OK, back to the topic:

Why does the tadpole stay snuggled in my companions brain when they die.

I hovered over their lifeless body just waiting to squish the little devil...but...nothing.
Originally Posted by Van'tal
OK, back to the topic:

Why does the tadpole stay snuggled in my companions brain when they die.

I hovered over their lifeless body just waiting to squish the little devil...but...nothing.
Because your tadpoles have been modified, unlike Edowyn and the others' - the Mysterious Guest & Omeluum tell you so. Or because Tav&team are 'chosen ones' - and we'll discover further along the story that we're all 'special'.
I hope it's the first choice instead of the second.
Posted By: JandK Re: Companions - Things Just Don't Make Sense - 01/08/22 11:53 AM
Originally Posted by Van'tal
OK, back to the topic:

Why does the tadpole stay snuggled in my companions brain when they die.

I hovered over their lifeless body just waiting to squish the little devil...but...nothing.

Why can you only use revivify scrolls on your group members?

Same thing.
Originally Posted by Neleothesze
Originally Posted by Van'tal
OK, back to the topic:

Why does the tadpole stay snuggled in my companions brain when they die.

I hovered over their lifeless body just waiting to squish the little devil...but...nothing.
Because your tadpoles have been modified, unlike Edowyn and the others' - the Mysterious Guest & Omeluum tell you so. Or because Tav&team are 'chosen ones' - and we'll discover further along the story that we're all 'special'.
I hope it's the first choice instead of the second.
There isn't any indication that our tadpoles have been medled with to be any more 'special' than the ones the absolute cultist's have. Omeluum tells you it's been meddled with, but he's only saying so within the context of a 'normal' tadpole, not compared to the ones the cultists have.

It's implied that the other cultists have similar symptoms-the dream stranger, the powers, etc. The difference is that our characters are *aware* they have been tadpoled. companions will even comment that they don't think the process was 'finished' and that if the ship hadn't crashed, we would have ended up like Minthara, Gut, etc if it had reached Moonrise.
Originally Posted by Leucrotta
Originally Posted by Neleothesze
Originally Posted by Van'tal
OK, back to the topic:

Why does the tadpole stay snuggled in my companions brain when they die.

I hovered over their lifeless body just waiting to squish the little devil...but...nothing.
Because your tadpoles have been modified, unlike Edowyn and the others' - the Mysterious Guest & Omeluum tell you so. Or because Tav&team are 'chosen ones' - and we'll discover further along the story that we're all 'special'.
I hope it's the first choice instead of the second.
There isn't any indication that our tadpoles have been medled with to be any more 'special' than the ones the absolute cultist's have. Omeluum tells you it's been meddled with, but he's only saying so within the context of a 'normal' tadpole, not compared to the ones the cultists have.

It's implied that the other cultists have similar symptoms-the dream stranger, the powers, etc. The difference is that our characters are *aware* they have been tadpoled. companions will even comment that they don't think the process was 'finished' and that if the ship hadn't crashed, we would have ended up like Minthara, Gut, etc if it had reached Moonrise.


I'll buy that.

Interesting:

So if you leave Lae'zel in the cage, she shows up at the Githyanki encounter (all 12 HP of her).

Astarian has revealed some good quests to come with Cazador Szarr.

Time to sit him, and see if I can't find a good Fighter sub-class to test on Lae'zel.

Shadowheart died bravely on the Nautaloid (best solution I have found to avoid the cat-fight between apposing clerics).

At full access I will wake her in time visit the cultist at Moonrise Tower...maybe we will learn something more.

Posted By: 7d7 Re: Companions - Things Just Don't Make Sense - 01/08/22 03:15 PM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Shadowheart - We've talked about a lot. She's dressed like a Sharran with onyx circlet, onyx stones in her armor, and she pretty much screams, "I'm a cleric of Shar everybody." But you're never given the opportunity to question who she is a cleric of, her outfit, or anything. Then, when she reveals her secret, your character's only option is shock. "What? Seriously? You believe in Shar? I did NOT see that coming." Makes no sense. At least give us the ability to question her, have her lie to us, have us make Insight checks and such to see if we can tell she's lying, have us make Religion rolls to determine if we know anything about Shar and her armor and such. SOMEthing to make this make more sense.

Astarion - I've mentioned this on another post. Why does he try to knife you? Makes no sense. Here's this guy who is all alone. He's a vampire spawn who learns "Holy crap! I'm not dying in direct sunlight!" Sure, he saw you running around on the ship, but all the more reason why he wouldn't try to trick you with a boar in the bushes and then put a knife to your throat. It makes no sense to me, especially if he's outnumbered two to 1 (or more in multiplayer mode), and especially if one of those individuals in your party is a cleric. He has no idea what he can or cannot do anymore, and he's alone. It makes way more sense to have Astarion try to be as sweet as pie with you to try to convince you he is a wonderful person to know and have on your team. He should be super friendly and such, trying to lull you into revealing something that he wants to know. I don't know. I just don't think it makes sense for him to attack you, and it would make a lot more players hate him less.

Gale - The one who REALLY doesn't make sense. I mean REALLY REALLY. First, he tells you that he's surprised your alive. "Last time I saw you, you were lying in a crucible's worth of blood; an intellect devourer nibbling at your ear." WHAAA??? When did THIS happen? Ever? Maybe if I screwed up the fight with the intellect devourers in the nautiloid just after leaving the beach, I might have been lying in a pool of blood, but otherwise, no. Makes no sense. At no time was I ever in this scenario. But I can't even ask him what he means. I can't ask him where he was on the ship either. I can't ask him, or anyone really for that matter, to tell me their story about how they survived the ship, how they got away, and what they've been doing all this time. Maybe that's just because it's EA, I don't know, but hopefully at full release they'll let us ask such questions. Also, and this is a big one for me, I have no ability to question Gale with why he is the ONLY origin character we don't connect with at the tadpole level. Shadowheart, Astarion, Lae'zel and Wyll ALL connect via tadpole, but Gale does not. Why? I can't even ask him what he thinks. And why can't I get jealous when Gale flirts with Shadowheart? I mean, what a perfect opportunity to create some tension between party members. He flirts with Shadowheart, and I should have the ability to at least say, "All right. All right. You old smoothy," like Han with Lando. Then I lead Shadowheart away by the hand with my back to him just to make sure he understands. lol. OK. So maybe not quite like that, but you know... something. I can only sit there and watch it play out. And, finally, Gale can die. Oh! He's got this big magic bomb in his chest. If he dies, he'll supernova everything. But hey. We can kill him and leave him for dead on the ground as soon as we meet him. Makes no sense. That goes for Astarion too. He can bleed out and die, even though he's a vampire spawn? ??? Makes no sense. No. If we kill Gale, his ghost self should appear and say to resurrect him quick or else. If you don't... BOOM!!! Game over. Reload. Best not mess with Gale.

And if Astarion dies, SOMEthing different should happen instead of a pool of blood forming around him. He's a vampire spawn. Yes, he's weird because of the tadpole, but it should be something different. I mean, during dialogues, he makes comments like, "I'd like to see you try," when you mention something about killing him. Um... If he can bleed out and die like everyone else, he shouldn't be acting all like he's a vampire spawn still. I don't know. He just doesn't make sense. It's like no one's really sure if he's a vampire spawn or a person. Is he alive or dead? He can bleed out, but he has no reflection, but he has fangs and needs to drink blood, but he can only do so once in a day now, and he can't spider climb, but he can enter places unwelcomed, but he burns when walking through running water, but he doesn't burn up in the sun... It just doesn't add up at all. When his HP is reduced to 0, maybe he should NOT bleed out and instead he starts sizzling and turning into a vapor, as if he's burning up in the sun. SOMEthing to say, "Astarion isn't like everyone else." I mean, Gale has some death cloud around him, so why shouldn't Astarion be different from everyone else?

Lae'zel - "We must get to the creche. NOW!" She nags you to death about it. Then, 7 Long Rests later. She's forgotten all about it. She doesn't even care anymore, and she's still in your party. Why exactly?

Wyll - Same as Lae'zel. "I'm after Mizora and I want to defeat the goblins to save the grove. These are the only things I really care about." We go everywhere but the goblin camp and ignore it completely. He's perfectly fine even after a week of long resting. No issues with Wyll no matter what you do.

I don't know. Like I said. Maybe it's just because it's EA, but there are SO many things that don't make sense.

This is so on point OP... Given the quality of the game in other area is at such standard I can only imagine this will be fixed in the end release.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Companions - Things Just Don't Make Sense - 01/08/22 03:16 PM
Originally Posted by Leucrotta
Originally Posted by Neleothesze
Originally Posted by Van'tal
OK, back to the topic:

Why does the tadpole stay snuggled in my companions brain when they die.

I hovered over their lifeless body just waiting to squish the little devil...but...nothing.
Because your tadpoles have been modified, unlike Edowyn and the others' - the Mysterious Guest & Omeluum tell you so. Or because Tav&team are 'chosen ones' - and we'll discover further along the story that we're all 'special'.
I hope it's the first choice instead of the second.
There isn't any indication that our tadpoles have been medled with to be any more 'special' than the ones the absolute cultist's have. Omeluum tells you it's been meddled with, but he's only saying so within the context of a 'normal' tadpole, not compared to the ones the cultists have.

It's implied that the other cultists have similar symptoms-the dream stranger, the powers, etc. The difference is that our characters are *aware* they have been tadpoled. companions will even comment that they don't think the process was 'finished' and that if the ship hadn't crashed, we would have ended up like Minthara, Gut, etc if it had reached Moonrise.

Yeah. I'm not so sure about that. I mean, you COULD be right that they aren't different from the other cultists, but several things imply that they are, in fact, superior to others.

1. When you die, your tadpoles - the entire party - don't exit the body. Every other true soul tadpole does... or at least did... I'm not sure about Nere's and I haven't played it enough recently to know if they still do. Either way, the fact that the party's tadpoles don't exit the body and try to flee says to me that they are somehow quite different.
2. The MCs tadpole in particular seems to be the Elder Brain tadpole. Why do I say that? If I use the tadpole powers, I trigger the dream for everyone. I use the powers. Everyone receives the tadpole powers like turning into an intellect devourer, reflecting things, etc. Seems like maybe ours is just a wee bit different.
3. The MCs tadpole can actually manipulate and control other true souls, like Ragzlin. You can literally use your connection to mess with him and trick him and even control him. Means the MCs tadpole is maybe just a smidge superior. Don't you think?
4. Minthara tells you that the Absolute thinks you're special. Gut also says you're special.

Now, it COULD be that you're special because the process wasn't finished, but the big one for me is that YOU cause your companions to dream and gain new powers after YOU use YOUR illithid mental connections to mess with other people's minds.

No. I think that you are not under the Absolute's control because the process wasn't finished, but I think you in particular are very special. Your tadpole is quite different from everyone else's. And frankly, I think your origin companions are too... especially since you CAN have them go into a dialogue and use their tadpole mental connection too. Yeah. I'm thinking you're all Elder Brain tadpoles, and you, the player, being the designated leader, have taken on the Alpha Elder Brain role.

Here's another thing to think about. Each and every one of the origin characters is special. Minthara is not. Gut isn't either. Ragzlin's just a hobgoblin warlord. Nere is a drow sorcerer. None of the other true souls are really "special".

But Astarion is a vampire spawn who is really alive and messed with by infernals.

Shadowheart is (my best guess) a resurrected Dark Justiciar from Grymforge, or something similar, who is on a special mission to acquire some githyanki d20 that everyone wants.

Lae'zel is a wannabe Kithrak who obviously did something she doesn't want to talk about, and she's desperately trying to redeem herself in the eyes of her goddess. There's obviously WAY more to her than simply being a gith warrior.

Wyll's got some sort of devil mistress pact thing going on, and he's also obviously got way more secrets he's covering up under his "I'm such a great hero" persona.

And Gale... Don't even get me started. Lover of Mystra? What, is he Elminster reborn? He knows about Netherese magic, which is not common. Yeah. He pretends to be all good, but he's willing to side with a devil if he has to in order to escape the tadpole fate, and he's willing to help you kill all the tieflings and druids in the grove even if afterwards he feels all sorts of remorse.

Mmmhmmm. These aren't normal people. Yeah. I think there's plenty of reason to believe they are ALL, including the MC, quite special and have been infused with special tadpoles.
I don't think Larian are going to change anything about Shadowheart. They have her in full Sharran gear covered in Sharran symbols in loadscreen art, and her description on the BG3 website goes:

Quote
A loyal cleric of Shar, Shadowheart is the sole survivor of a holy mission undertaken on the Mistress of the Night’s behest. She alone must deliver a relic of immense power to her coven in Baldur’s Gate, while threatened by a strange new magic that is burgeoning from within.
I guess intrigue is so last season over at Fun Videogames Inc. Strange new magic from the tadpole, ok.

Astarion:
Quote
Astarion prowled the night as a vampire spawn for centuries, serving a sadistic master until he was snatched away. Now he can walk in the light and has the chance at a new life, but how long can he keep his past buried?
Centuries as a vampire spawn, level 1. Check.

Gale:
Quote
Gale is a wizard prodigy whose love for a goddess made him attempt a dread feat no mortal should. Blighted by the forbidden magic of ancient Netheril, Gale strives to undo the corruption that is overtaking him and win back his goddess’ favour before he becomes a destroyer of worlds.
Destroyer of worlds, ok. Thanks for letting us know before finding out his secrets through game events.

Lae'zel:
Quote
Lae'zel is a ferocious Githyanki warrior, mighty even by the standards of her mind flayer-hunting kind. Faced with transforming into the very monster she's sworn to destroy, Lae'zel must prove herself worthy of rejoining her people - if they don't execute her first.
Execute.. thanks for confirming the "cure" part of the plot so no unnecessary surprises at the Creche can be experienced. So mighty by Githyanki standards Sarth Baretha can take her down before she gets a turn.


I find all this really lackluster as I really like to experience this stuff first hand and actually be surprised by the characters and the plot. Major spoilers, really. Just to have playable Origin characters I will never even consider using. I didn't want to know about Shar, and I didn't want to know about vampire. I don't want to play AS my companions. Why would anyone?
Originally Posted by 1varangian
her description on the BG3 website
[Linked Image from i.imgflip.com]

Originally Posted by 1varangian
I don't think Larian are going to change anything about Shadowheart. They have her in full Sharran gear covered in Sharran symbols in loadscreen art
But do we really need to change her so badly?
Okey, Larian is strictly against any visual changes, they demand her to look like this ... why not let players recognize it then?
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Companions - Things Just Don't Make Sense - 01/08/22 05:22 PM
I assume that ALL the characters - Custom and Origin - have been reset by the tadpoles. So, yes. Gale WAS a powerful mage. Wyll WAS the Blade of Frontiers. However, just as Astarion has become "conveniently lost" so have they all. None are who they once were from a skill and power perspective.

But it is a bit frustrating that all the companions have had their basic stories spoiled, and yet you're supposed to pretend you don't know anything about them when you meet them.

There, again, is one of my points. Let's just rip things off like a bandaid. Let me have the ability to roll to determine if I know anything about Shar and/or if Shadowheart is lying. Let me call her on it. Let's just get it out of the way. Don't drag it out like it's some huge surprise and have my character super shocked when they "discover" the truth from her. In fact, give me various chances to call her on it. Like the whole owlbear cave Selune statue thing. Let me call her on it. "Why are you SO against Selune? She's a good goddess, you know. Come to think of it. You're a cleric of trickery domain. Right? Who do you serve again?"

I've really been mulling over the SH situation, and at first I thought it would be cool if she wore normal armor and such. But now, I'm like, no. Let's just leave it as is, but give us the chance to get the whole "I'm a frightening cleric of Shar type person" over with. For a few people, who know nothing about the game, it will be a shock later, IF they even know who Shar is - which they probably won't because if they did it wouldn't surprise them in the slightest if they knew anything about Forgotten Realms.

So why bother even trying to make it some huge surprise thing. Get it over with. If people accept her in the beginning, they accept her. If not, reject or kill her and move on.
Posted By: Sozz Re: Companions - Things Just Don't Make Sense - 01/08/22 05:31 PM
No metagaming at the table. Yes, Larry's been talking about playing a vampire all week, but Tav doesn't know that yet! Come on, guys, I'm serious stop buying holy water for no reason.
Originally Posted by GM4Him
There, again, is one of my points. Let's just rip things off like a bandaid. Let me have the ability to roll to determine if I know anything about Shar and/or if Shadowheart is lying. Let me call her on it. Let's just get it out of the way. Don't drag it out like it's some huge surprise and have my character super shocked when they "discover" the truth from her. In fact, give me various chances to call her on it. Like the whole owlbear cave Selune statue thing. Let me call her on it. "Why are you SO against Selune? She's a good goddess, you know. Come to think of it. You're a cleric of trickery domain. Right? Who do you serve again?"
If it would be well handles it could be the best way to proceed. I think of Disco Elysium and how what your character knows, perceives and thinks is determined by his stats and rolls, not by players knowledge/perception. Of course, like in DE the narrator would need to bring player up to speed - so if you PC recognises symbol of selune, the narrator should give player info on who that is.

That would be an abitious way of doing things, though, and Larian invested themselves in other reactivities.
Posted By: Sozz Re: Companions - Things Just Don't Make Sense - 01/08/22 06:02 PM
This is a great point, the narrator is criminally underutilized in this respect.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Companions - Things Just Don't Make Sense - 01/08/22 06:18 PM
I was thinking about this further. Some players are like, "I don't want my character or the narrator to teach me who Shar is. That would slow down the game. I don't want a long lecture on the topic."

True. Very true. Especially on replays, the last thing you want is for the game to make a Religion check, you succeed, and it suddenly launches into all the nuances as to why Shadowheart's armor and equipment scream of Shar. Then it lectures you about who Shar is and her long history with Selune.

So great. Fine. Can we still have the rolls and can we have a Compendium of Knowledge? Every time my character succeeds in a roll like that, information is added to my Compendium of Knowledge. I meet Shadowheart for the first time, a Religion roll is made, I succeed, and Poof! Knowledge about Shar appears. I rolled really well. Knowledge about Dark Justiciar Armor also appears. All recorded in my compendium. Then, IF I want to open it and look, I can read all about these things.

Nevertheless, whether that happens or not, I think we still need to be able to ask her what goddess she serves, and she should probably lie and give us a different deity, then let us make an Insight roll to see if she's lying, or something similar, and just give us the ability to call her on it.

Likewise, have the game make Investigation checks for me as I'm roaming the beach and checking bodies. Compendium update. I open it. It reads, "The fishermen on the beach have nasty claw marks detailing that they were slashed by some three-toed creatures." Another check later. Compendium update. "Some of the fishermen killed the intellect devourers near the pier, but most fishermen fled north." Later. Approach goblins. Investigation check. Compendium Update. "You find crossbow bolts in the goblins. Someone shot them from above, it seems." or "You find several fractured skulls and shrapnel in their backs. These goblins were killed by pieces of the exploding nautiloid."

Little things like that would allow players like me to have some better idea of what's going on rather than doing a lot of guessing and trying to figure out things that frankly seem like the devs were just throwing out there without really any purpose. I mean, a lot of times it really seems like the devs were like, "Hmmm. What would go good here. Ah! I know. Let's throw four dead intellect devourers by Shadowheart near the crypt entrance and have her make a reference to having killed them. Why not?"

Um... How did she kill 4 intellect devourers by herself exactly?... without a crossbow?... even though she says keep your distance because they'll kill you if you get too close?

Investigation check. Compendium Update. "Even though Shadowheart SAID she killed these 4 intellect devourers, you determine based on the wounds you find on their bodies that these were obviously killed during a scuffle with the fishermen/women nearby. There are broken spears stuck in their flesh, and one looks as if it's been clubbed repeatedly by a wooden weapon. It is doubtful that Shadowheart actually killed them with only a mace and shield by herself."
May be (???) Shadowheart killed them with her patron god magic because she is a chosen of Shar??? I think it is good to leave some things for player interpretation. There is some category of very sensitive players who can get pushed back by some extremely mundane stuff. Always seems weird to me - to question the plot like that. People are fallible, their motivations sometimes unclear and unpredictable. We are used to archetypical characters and idealistic models. I am no perfect judge of character but I enjoy every companion in a unique way and don't find anything too much out of place. The only exception is companions not sticking to their own origin, it could be cool to see the party being "split" in halves, like Laezel and Wyll leaving the party to take a creche route. To have more leaders to the party and mb even character development, under certain circumstances, into a leader by even the most dependant of characters. As of now it feels like Tav is the centre of the world. But that might be an unpopular opinion.
Originally Posted by GM4Him
I assume that ALL the characters - Custom and Origin - have been reset by the tadpoles.

This is the only explanation that can even begin to explain the companions and I find it really off-putting.

The tadpoles have no reason to do this. Exactly the opposite. Why would they want weakened thralls? Getting an archmage would be a jackpot for the Absolute. Going through such lengths just to get level 1 cannon fodder doesn't make any sense. Minthara, Ragzlin and Nere aren't weakened. How convenient.

I think it's just a complete disconnect between writing and game mechanics. Everyone is legendary and amazing at level 1. Even though they get owned by goblins. Levels do not reflect actual power. By this logic an archdruid can also be a low level companion and you can slay Adamantine Golems at level 4.

And everyone gets to have an epic backstory except... you.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Companions - Things Just Don't Make Sense - 01/08/22 10:11 PM
Something to do with the Netherese magic on the tadpoles, is my guess. Plus, Larian needed a way to take super powerful backstory characters and make them level 1.
Posted By: JandK Re: Companions - Things Just Don't Make Sense - 01/08/22 10:16 PM
Originally Posted by 1varangian
This is the only explanation that can even begin to explain...

Well, all the companions could be clones of the original people, thus explaining why they aren't the same level they "remember" being.

Which would be interesting if they later ran into themselves.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Companions - Things Just Don't Make Sense - 01/08/22 10:17 PM
Originally Posted by neprostoman
May be (???) Shadowheart killed them with her patron god magic because she is a chosen of Shar??? I think it is good to leave some things for player interpretation. There is some category of very sensitive players who can get pushed back by some extremely mundane stuff. Always seems weird to me - to question the plot like that. People are fallible, their motivations sometimes unclear and unpredictable. We are used to archetypical characters and idealistic models. I am no perfect judge of character but I enjoy every companion in a unique way and don't find anything too much out of place. The only exception is companions not sticking to their own origin, it could be cool to see the party being "split" in halves, like Laezel and Wyll leaving the party to take a creche route. To have more leaders to the party and mb even character development, under certain circumstances, into a leader by even the most dependant of characters. As of now it feels like Tav is the centre of the world. But that might be an unpopular opinion.

It's called fleshing out the story. You give reasons why things happened so it all makes sense.

I'm thinking of Thumb Wars. Princess Bunhead shows up by the falcon and says, "I escaped somehow.". It was making fun of stories that don't get properly fleshed out. It's called good story writing. Things are supposed to make sense.

Besides, I think it would be cool and would really set up the ambiance of the entire Beach area if you are able to investigate the corpses and find signs of what happened. Slash marks on this body indicating this person was killed by a creature. Spear wounds indicating one fisherman with a spear killed another. Why? Body Thief. One devourer took him over and attacked another. But the player doesn't know this unless they succeed in a Investigation check.

Stuff like that causes players' imaginations to run wild. What are they about to face?
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Companions - Things Just Don't Make Sense - 01/08/22 10:23 PM
Here's another example of what I'm getting at.

Goblins have painted symbol on their Shields. Religion check succeeds. Compendium update. You check the compendium, and it says that the goblin symbol looks like a combination of the symbols of the dead three. It then shows you pictures of each of the symbols.

This now makes it so that players who aren't as familiar with such things can maybe get an understand clues pertaining to the story.

I mean, that's kind of what those skills are for. That's their purpose.
Your second example is what I actually would like to see in the game! It is really a major detail for understanding lore and story, while investigating every corpse I think can get rather tedious.
Gale even mentions it in a dialogue with Wyll, when the latter complains he can't handle lesser monsters as of now. Gale answers that tadpole has effect on both mind and body.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Companions - Things Just Don't Make Sense - 01/08/22 11:01 PM
Originally Posted by neprostoman
Your second example is what I actually would like to see in the game! It is really a major detail for understanding lore and story, while investigating every corpse I think can get rather tedious.

No no. My suggestion isn't to investigate every body. More like as you approach the Dead goblins near Gale, a single Investigation check is made for each character. If one succeeds, your Compendium is updated.

Same for the fisher people on the beach. As you pass by some, a roll is made. By others, another roll for some additional clue. Stuff like that.
I think we might need to chill a little about the feasibility of what some are hoping for. Larian has gone with the story they've gone with, and I don't think it matches well with a lot of the mechanics we're going to start playing with as level one characters, that is necessary for the way this type of RPG starts out.

If you look at their prior work then characters and plots are not even close to being their strong points, and expecting everything to either make sense, or all of a sudden to be redesigned and re-written between now and release is hoping for a bit much. There will be a lot of bits that are clunky and probably decent parts of the whole overall story that never really line up.

I'm not saying don't offer thoughts and criticisms, but what is realistically able to be addresses and amended will not really go very far from what is already in front of us. They're likely working pretty hard on the other acts, and what we have in act 1 is the most settled stuff in the game at this point.
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Something to do with the Netherese magic on the tadpoles, is my guess. Plus, Larian needed a way to take super powerful backstory characters and make them level 1.
Super powerful companions for a level 1 Tav nobody is my issue exactly. Why do they need to be powerful? How does this make them better characters? What's the benefit in storytelling? Especially if they are potential PC's. Why can't we, as the actual player, play them and shape them to have a fuller experience? They should have some background and the rest should be up to us. I don't want to play a character where I'm being dictated exactly what they are and have been by an extensive history of events.

Gale and Wyll complaining how they used to be so powerful but not anymore is really off-putting as well. Especially since you have never SEEN them be that powerful. They could be easily exaggerating which would make them pathetic. Wyll already has another pathetic side to his story and making someone a complete loser doesn't make them a companion you want to travel with. On the opposite side, being weak but courageous is always awe-inspiring. A Captain America story that starts from somewhere small, goes somewhere epic, and has you rooting for them. Reflecting on that, it explains why I like Lae'zel much more than Gale or Wyll. She can still be seen as a young aspiring warrior of her kind, even naive about Vlaakith. She doesn't have a backstory where she was training dragons and slaying Elder Brains. She is more believable with much more room to grow. She could actually be level 1.

They could have made the companions a lot more believable and likable, even the evil ones, without the inane backstories about being super powerful once and them complaining about it.

Originally Posted by JandK
Originally Posted by 1varangian
This is the only explanation that can even begin to explain...

Well, all the companions could be clones of the original people, thus explaining why they aren't the same level they "remember" being.

Which would be interesting if they later ran into themselves.
That's next level.

But even that's better than having powerful companions de-leveled by a really weak plot device, just for mechanical reasons. Mechanics should always support the narrative, but in BG3 it feels like they are clashing. Writers wanted awesome level 12 companions but gameplay devs wanted 1-12 progression.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Companions - Things Just Don't Make Sense - 02/08/22 06:24 AM
Originally Posted by lamaros
I think we might need to chill a little about the feasibility of what some are hoping for. Larian has gone with the story they've gone with, and I don't think it matches well with a lot of the mechanics we're going to start playing with as level one characters, that is necessary for the way this type of RPG starts out.

If you look at their prior work then characters and plots are not even close to being their strong points, and expecting everything to either make sense, or all of a sudden to be redesigned and re-written between now and release is hoping for a bit much. There will be a lot of bits that are clunky and probably decent parts of the whole overall story that never really line up.

I'm not saying don't offer thoughts and criticisms, but what is realistically able to be addresses and amended will not really go very far from what is already in front of us. They're likely working pretty hard on the other acts, and what we have in act 1 is the most settled stuff in the game at this point.

Lol. No worries. I have very little expectations, really. Quite honestly, most things I post now are things I'd love to see in the game but don't really expect. I dream of this BG3 game with:

Day/Night Cycle
Party of 6
Shove is 5e, only 5 ft and knock down
Long rest and short rest are more intuitive and meaningful
DIALOGUES NOT CONNECTED JUST TO LONG REST
Campsites ON the map
Item management is smooth and less housework
The story is cohesive and makes sense
The map makes sense and isn't jammed together
The companions dialogues make sense and our characters have dialogue options that allow us to respond in more witty and intelligent ways rather than simply accept someone's dialogue simply because that's what we're supposed to do.
Reactions done well so that we, the players, can actually use a fundamental part of 5e gameplay

And all the other things we've talked to death out here for 2 years.

I frankly don't know what I'm going to do when this game is released and I no longer have it to talk to people about. Half the fun was dreaming about how this game could be so much better and hoping we'd at least see SOME of our suggestions implemented.

But sadly, we didn't get like anything we asked for except maybe hi ground/backstab changed. That was huge, but only like 1% of what we were hoping for.

After everything people have said to me about DOS 2, the wind has been once more totally knocked out of my sails. While playing DOS 2, I started to hope, but I'm being assured left and right that Act 2 and 3 of that game suddenly nose dive.

I have said from the beginning of this game that it replaced KOTOR as my all time favorite video game. But I'm not so sure anymore. Why? KOTOR was fluid, had depth, details, dialogues and characters were intelligent and made sense. The maps made sense. The controls were easy to use, and you had better command of the camera. You didn't find all sorts of strange contradictions like Aradin and Halsin being gone for over a month where? Oh, the Selune ruins 5 minutes away. Right. And why hasn't the goblin army found the grove? The gate is SO obvious to any shmoe walking by. KOTOR was balanced. It had surprises and really fleshed out even minor characters and details. It was strategic. You had lots of choices and options with dialogue, and many were witty and smart butt. You could be good or actually evil. Not just murder hobo.

Yeah... I am thinking this game is going to disappoint, in the end. All this buildup and it'll just fizzle out like flat coke. Yeah. I highly doubt we'll get much more of what we ask for. But I still post because there is still part of me that hopes. It's a much smaller part now, but it's there.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Companions - Things Just Don't Make Sense - 02/08/22 06:36 AM
Originally Posted by 1varangian
But even that's better than having powerful companions de-leveled by a really weak plot device, just for mechanical reasons. Mechanics should always support the narrative, but in BG3 it feels like they are clashing. Writers wanted awesome level 12 companions but gameplay devs wanted 1-12 progression.

Well, that's part of my point. You have level 1 Shadowheart making a claim at the crypt door that she killed the 4 intellect devourers by herself. That's INSANE. It implies she had a sudden surge of character level 10 take her over and then she was thrown back to level 1. Makes no narrative sense. Even if they had 1 HP a piece, 4 devourers would have cornered her there and killed her since she has no ranged weapon and no place to perch to peg them off. 2 hits and she'd have died.

At least when you first meet Lae'zel, she's afraid of proceeding because 3 imps block her path. That makes sense for a level 1. But come on. Don't try to convince me that a level 1 cleric killed 4 devourers by herself. Man! That's one of the things that really bugs me about them using intellect devourers. It's like they've made them so dumbed down that now players are going to expect that every devourer is a booty easy brain dog you can kill without breaking a sweat at level 1. Why? Use something else that makes more sense and certainly don't try to convince me SH killed 4 all by her lonesome. Tell me she came just in time to try to save a few fishermen, and fought by their side, but she alone survived, or something that makes sense.

But no. Somehow she killed 4 alone. Makes no sense.
Larian's flaw is that they think they can get away with this kind of haphazard world building. They don't understand the significance of logic and structure here.

Players not familiar with D&D don't know what an Intellect Devourer is supposed to be. Even so, it's a huge stretch SH survived 4 of the creatures we fought at the crash site unscathed.

But the haphazard world building goes so much deeper than that with the "archdruids", epic level 1 companions, and all the high level content being pushed into low level play (mind flayers, vampires, dragons, devils, adamantine golems etc. etc.). They have absolutely no patience to pace themselves and go from small to epic to reap big rewards later. Instead, everything is always epic, players become numb and nothing is truly big or epic in the game anymore.

As for this "go big or go home attitude" they seem to have.. I liked Gale at first, but when he told his ridiculous story about Mystra I literally rolled my eyes and stopped liking him or believing him as a character.
I cant help the feeling you are overthinking that level stuff too much ...

Also where did you get that idea that our companions were superpowerfull?

Wyll is a fraud and liar ... i wouldnt be surprised if he would reveal later in game that all his heroic deeds was just fabricated stories ... simmilar to movie Dragon Heart ... Mizora showed as some fierce monster, Wyll "slain her", and then money fame and fortune just come naturaly.
Or it was whole her trick and he didnt know.

Lae'zel is still a child in eyes of her people basicaly meaning she only completed basic training.

Shadowheart have Format:C done on her ... by pure fantasy covenience she still remember to talk.

Astarion is old as fuck ... but what did he do so far? As far as we know all his Vapire work was: show up on party, wait until some noble gets interested in him, and then lead them back to his master.
I bet he would have level 20 in etiquette, and knowledge of vines by that time ... but as an adveturer? You hardly can find anyone greener than spoiled noble, no matter how old.

And finaly Gale, the only character who indeed maybe had some real power in the past. Even if we put aside that he contain artefact that quite litteraly "syphons magic away" ...
All his stories and boasting about his power and talent are in the past ... i mean he certainly made it sound as if he were level 20 just 20 minutes ago ... but when you listen to it very closely, you find out that everything he say can perfectly fit to a young man, maybe even kid, that us just few lections ahead compared to other kids in class. laugh
I would say there is serious possibility that he was never as superpowerfull as he let us believe. laugh
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Companions - Things Just Don't Make Sense - 02/08/22 10:23 AM
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
I cant help the feeling you are overthinking that level stuff too much ...

Also where did you get that idea that our companions were superpowerfull?

Wyll is a fraud and liar ... i wouldnt be surprised if he would reveal later in game that all his heroic deeds was just fabricated stories ... simmilar to movie Dragon Heart ... Mizora showed as some fierce monster, Wyll "slain her", and then money fame and fortune just come naturaly.
Or it was whole her trick and he didnt know.

Lae'zel is still a child in eyes of her people basicaly meaning she only completed basic training.

Shadowheart have Format:C done on her ... by pure fantasy covenience she still remember to talk.

Astarion is old as fuck ... but what did he do so far? As far as we know all his Vapire work was: show up on party, wait until some noble gets interested in him, and then lead them back to his master.
I bet he would have level 20 in etiquette, and knowledge of vines by that time ... but as an adveturer? You hardly can find anyone greener than spoiled noble, no matter how old.

And finaly Gale, the only character who indeed maybe had some real power in the past. Even if we put aside that he contain artefact that quite litteraly "syphons magic away" ...
All his stories and boasting about his power and talent are in the past ... i mean he certainly made it sound as if he were level 20 just 20 minutes ago ... but when you listen to it very closely, you find out that everything he say can perfectly fit to a young man, maybe even kid, that us just few lections ahead compared to other kids in class. laugh
I would say there is serious possibility that he was never as superpowerfull as he let us believe. laugh

You know... Very true. We are again assuming that these companions have told us at least some truth. Except for Lae'zel, they could all be lying through their teeth.

But Wyll obviously has a rep... Unless he's lying that he's the Blade of Frontiers. I mean. Does anyone know what the Blade actually looks like?

I don't know. Sure SEEMS like the direction Larian is going, though, that everyone was powerful and now made nobodies.
Quote: But Wyll obviously has a rep... Unless he's lying that he's the Blade of Frontiers. I mean. Does anyone know what the Blade actually looks like?

I don't know. Sure SEEMS like the direction Larian is going, though, that everyone was powerful and now made nobodies.



Florrick does, as does Guantlet at Waukeens Rest.


If the Blade is in the party you will get some dialogue and discover a former connection.
Originally Posted by GM4Him
But Wyll obviously has a rep... Unless he's lying that he's the Blade of Frontiers. I mean. Does anyone know what the Blade actually looks like?
Interesting idea to be certain.

But i meaned something slightly different. smile

Take Geralt for example ... "Butcher of Blaviken" title to be specific.
He had the reputation obviously, everyone knew that ... the word was that he came to the town, and simply massacred innocent people.
While the truth was, he was protecting somebody against relatively evil Wizard, and those people simply were standing in his way. smile

That kind of lie i had in mind ...

Same as that example i used earlier ... you didnt see Dragonheart movie?

Important part starts around 0:50
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Companions - Things Just Don't Make Sense - 02/08/22 12:43 PM
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by GM4Him
But Wyll obviously has a rep... Unless he's lying that he's the Blade of Frontiers. I mean. Does anyone know what the Blade actually looks like?
Interesting idea to be certain.

But i meaned something slightly different. smile

Take Geralt for example ... "Butcher of Blaviken" title to be specific.
He had the reputation obviously, everyone knew that ... the word was that he came to the town, and simply massacred innocent people.
While the truth was, he was protecting somebody against relatively evil Wizard, and those people simply were standing in his way. smile

That kind of lie i had in mind ...

Same as that example i used earlier ... you didnt see Dragonheart movie?

Important part starts around 0:50

I have seen Braveheart and I do know what you meant. No. Sorry. I took what you said and went on a tangent. You are right, though, it could be like that too, or probably more likely like that than my tangent.
Originally Posted by 1varangian
Larian's flaw is that they think they can get away with this kind of haphazard world building. They don't understand the significance of logic and structure here.

Players not familiar with D&D don't know what an Intellect Devourer is supposed to be. Even so, it's a huge stretch SH survived 4 of the creatures we fought at the crash site unscathed.

But the haphazard world building goes so much deeper than that with the "archdruids", epic level 1 companions, and all the high level content being pushed into low level play (mind flayers, vampires, dragons, devils, adamantine golems etc. etc.). They have absolutely no patience to pace themselves and go from small to epic to reap big rewards later. Instead, everything is always epic, players become numb and nothing is truly big or epic in the game anymore.

As for this "go big or go home attitude" they seem to have.. I liked Gale at first, but when he told his ridiculous story about Mystra I literally rolled my eyes and stopped liking him or believing him as a character.

If you've played D:OS you know that this is what Larian is and does.

They do fun but completely over the top turn based combat - and absurd and poorly written stories.

The fact they even have some companions who are interesting and really well voice acted is a solid win and completely unexpected given where they've come from.

Act 2&3 will get little player feedback and will likely be rushed and incomplete, but I'm still holding out hope somehow despite all the evidence they'll stick the landing.

And if they don't the combat is still fun, even with the current flaws.
I couldn't finish either DOS 1 or 2. Probably because of reasons above I could never get into those, and will not buy DOS 3. And the asinine armor mechanic completely undermined our co-op play with Archer + Wizard from a purely mechanical standpoint. I was not impressed.

Larian took on BG3, D&D and Faerûn, and will now have to step it up. They have to be professional about resisting their own larianisms and save those for DOS 3.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Companions - Things Just Don't Make Sense - 02/08/22 03:48 PM
Found another thing that doesn't make sense. Though it is not entirely companion related, it keeps bugging me, and it goes along with not having a clear understanding of what's really going on in the Western Heartlands (the environment of BG3).

The Harper map and cache in the beginning. It mentions sacrilegious practices amongst the local Selunite sect. However, because the map is mentioned as still being in use, it implies both are recent additions to the little chest under the boulder in the alcove.

But Moonhaven/Bogrot is the only village in the area, and as far as we know the only Selunite sect. But it's been in ruins for 120 years. We know this because the apothecary hasn't been touched since the Necromancer lived there. Same with the school building, and we know the Selunite temple hasn't been used since those times also.

Now to relate it back to the thread. This whole village thing obviously relates to SH because of her reaction in the school and the statue of Selune there. And yet, the evidence we find is confusing and doesn't fit together cohesively. I'd really like some additional Investigation checks that maybe give you some additional information to help piece the mystery together.

When on the Harper Stash hill, let me make a check to see if I can learn more about the dead (presumably) Harper corpse by the campfire. How did they die? Were they killed by spiders in the little nook where you can get the egg? Were they killed by goblins? Why is the food there fresh? How fresh is that food? Did the Harper die days ago or 120 years ago? Why are they stripped of all their flesh? Are they a skeleton because they died 120 years ago and no one ever found the body and buried it? Did some creature strip the body of all flesh? If so, why is the skeleton complete? Shouldn't it be in a pile? Did some acid-monster thing strip the flesh from the bones without damaging the general bone formation? Does this Harper relate in some way to what happened in Moonhaven? Can we find evidence of a DIFFERENT Selunite sect somewhere in the area, because right now there is absolutely NO evidence of another sect? It really seems the Harper log you find is about Moonhaven from 120 years earlier, so DID someone settle in Moonhaven recently? Did they just not use the apothecary, the forge, or ANY building already there? Did they not live in ANY buildings at all?

And can we have Investigation checks while IN Moonhaven? Evidence clearly points to it being in ruins for 120 years or evidence points to someone has lived there but not disturbed it much? Just something to give a clearer picture of what's going on? I mean, this is pretty clearly directly connected to SH, but I feel totally lost.

Again. Clarifications and clues that help a player actually piece together the story. I don't mind not getting the full story just handed to me, but I should be able to learn the full story by searching for and finding all the clues. I shouldn't be able to spend 600+ game hours on a game and still have absolutely no idea what the flip is going on in most areas of the game.
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