Larian Studios
Posted By: JandK Free level one feat - 06/08/22 11:46 PM
I really think the game should offer a free feat to all characters at level one. Not a stat increase, but a feat of some sort, maybe even from a select list. Something to add flavor to the character and change it up a little.

I'm guessing there's data on certain feats that don't get selected that often. Those are the type of feats that should be available for free at level one. They're nice for flavor, but it's typically hard to justify taking them in place of better mechanical options.

Things like:

1. Athlete,
2. Lightly armored,
3. Mobile,
4. Skilled,
5. Weapon master, and...

...I also think it would be nice to be able to choose one of the initiate feats.

Is it so bad to want to play, say, a cleric who happens to be proficient with a longsword or a warhammer, but isn't an elf or dwarf? Call me crazy, but I just don't think that's going to break the game. If anything, I think it will make the game a thousand times more interesting.

Just my opinion, but for what it's worth, it's a strongly held opinion.

*

I also think there should be a feat that gives us Shovel as a permanent familiar. I like his character that much.
Posted By: Wormerine Re: Free level one feat - 06/08/22 11:55 PM
I suspect that the very goal of 5e (compared at least to 3) is to reduce amount of choices player is supposed to make at the beginning of the game. For accessibility sake.
Posted By: mrfuji3 Re: Free level one feat - 06/08/22 11:58 PM
+1

The amount of flexibility and decision making in 5e characters is criminally low. I really dislike how they make players choose between ASIs and feats.

I also agree with having a limited selection feats at level 1, removing the temptation to pick one of the OP feats. It'll give characters something extra to do at low levels which seems to match with Larian's philosophy, and as you say allows for some of the weaker-but-often-thematically-cooler feats to be picked.
Posted By: JandK Re: Free level one feat - 07/08/22 12:00 AM
Originally Posted by Wormerine
I suspect that the very goal of 5e (compared at least to 3) is to reduce amount of choices player is supposed to make at the beginning of the game. For accessibility sake.

I appreciate some of the ease of 5e. In fact, I love the concentration stuff. I used to hate the endless buffing.

Still. There are a couple areas I think need improvement. The free feat issue is one of them. I don't think that's overly complicated, and I truly believe most players would appreciate it.

Another issue I think is a problem has to do with ability checks versus ability saving throws. It's not entirely clear on the surface for a new player.

For instance, how many ability checks are there in BG3 right now?

Initiative checks?
Shove attempts?

Are those ability checks? I think they are. Anything else?
Posted By: mrfuji3 Re: Free level one feat - 07/08/22 12:49 AM
Originally Posted by JandK
Another issue I think is a problem has to do with ability checks versus ability saving throws. It's not entirely clear on the surface for a new player.

For instance, how many ability checks are there in BG3 right now?

Initiative checks?
Shove attempts?

Are those ability checks? I think they are. Anything else?
All dialogue checks are ability checks, as are perception (or investigation/nature/arcana) checks to notice things in the world, stealth checks to avoid notice, lockpicking and trap disarming (is this still Dex-sleight of hand or is it Dex-thieves tools?). Essentially, every d20 roll that is not associated with an attack or a spell/ability/trap/death saving throw is an ability check.

I don't disagree that the types of checks, and many other D&D 5e mechanics, should be explained better in the tutorial/character creation screen.
Posted By: mercurial_ann Re: Free level one feat - 07/08/22 12:59 AM
Variant Human?
Posted By: OcO Re: Free level one feat - 07/08/22 02:45 AM
Originally Posted by JandK
I also think there should be a feat that gives us Shovel as a permanent familiar. I like his character that much.

I have been saying for almost 2 years now that scroll should be changed to a once per long rest item of some kind.

Shovel mentions it's previous master never summoned it for anything fun. To me that implies it was repeatedly summoned which isn't possible from a single use scroll, and if it was summoned even once before the scroll would have been destroyed and we couldn't use it.

I plan on modding it later after release. Before I do though I may try a run where I try to keep it alive the whole way now that familiars don't despawn on long rest.
Posted By: JandK Re: Free level one feat - 07/08/22 03:53 AM
Originally Posted by OcO
Originally Posted by JandK
I also think there should be a feat that gives us Shovel as a permanent familiar. I like his character that much.

I have been saying for almost 2 years now that scroll should be changed to a once per long rest item of some kind.

Shovel mentions it's previous master never summoned it for anything fun. To me that implies it was repeatedly summoned which isn't possible from a single use scroll, and if it was summoned even once before the scroll would have been destroyed and we couldn't use it.

I plan on modding it later after release. Before I do though I may try a run where I try to keep it alive the whole way now that familiars don't despawn on long rest.

Except the familiars not despawning thing doesn't work on Shovel, believe it or not.

Shovel still goes away after a long rest.
Posted By: JandK Re: Free level one feat - 07/08/22 03:56 AM
Originally Posted by mrfuji3
All dialogue checks are ability checks, as are perception (or investigation/nature/arcana) checks to notice things in the world, stealth checks to avoid notice, lockpicking and trap disarming (is this still Dex-sleight of hand or is it Dex-thieves tools?). Essentially, every d20 roll that is not associated with an attack or a spell/ability/trap/death saving throw is an ability check.

I don't disagree that the types of checks, and many other D&D 5e mechanics, should be explained better in the tutorial/character creation screen.

So a skill check is the same thing as an ability check? That helps clear things up.
Posted By: Zerubbabel Re: Free level one feat - 07/08/22 04:42 AM
Not against this, but I think maybe there could be a cost associated? The game just already feels so easy at the start, giving us a feat, while EXCELLENT for creating whatever kind of build you want early on (and I respect that mentality), might make things too easy.
Posted By: 1varangian Re: Free level one feat - 07/08/22 05:27 AM
Being so stingy with feat picks is one of 5e's biggest weaknesses. Feats are FUN. They're more fun than ASI's that just change some numbers. Feats give you new possibilities and unique things to do. They help define a PC.

So yes, any change that allows more feat picks would be a good one.

I wouldn't worry about game difficulty becoming too easy if PCs get extra feats. Character building is a separate issue. Difficulty can and will get adjusted and tweaked regardless.

And I really hope they separate Feats and ASI's again in the next edition of D&D.
Posted By: Lotus Noctus Re: Free level one feat - 07/08/22 07:15 AM
+1
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Free level one feat - 07/08/22 09:30 AM
I feel little torn right now ...

On one hand, i would like to have some feats ... bcs it would certainly make my playthroughs a lot more interesting ...

On the other hand tho, the list you provided isnt really convincing ... i mean i know its just an example, but i honestly dont quite understand why even limit it ... from this list i would possibly end up with Skilled most of the time. :-/

Yes, i know that every Fighter and Barbarian would likely pick Great Weapon Master ... question is: So what? laugh
Every Sorcerer, or Bard (and likely some Wizards) would at least for EA purposes pick Warlock Initiate aswell.
Quite honestly im not sure what feat would Ranger pick ... possibly Mobile or Weapon Master (if it would still provide Stat incerase).

Im also asking myself if starting with Random Stat rolls (wich was promised by Larian) AND free feat would make our characters too powerfull ...
I mean i totally plan to start my first game as Half-Orc Barbarian with rolled 18Str +2 from Racial bonus ... imagine having feat on top of that seems almost crazy ... on the other hand tho, why not? laugh

I gues it would be +1 from me ... but i wouldnt restrict it, if we would we would most likely end up with passive and dull choices, and then there is no point. :-/
Posted By: mrfuji3 Re: Free level one feat - 07/08/22 03:20 PM
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
On one hand, i would like to have some feats ...

On the other hand tho, the list you provided isnt really convincing ... i mean i know its just an example, but i honestly dont quite understand why even limit it ... from this list i would possibly end up with Skilled most of the time. :-/

Yes, i know that every Fighter and Barbarian would likely pick Great Weapon Master ... question is: So what? laugh [...]

I gues it would be +1 from me ... but i wouldnt restrict it, if we would we would most likely end up with passive and dull choices, and then there is no point. :-/

Originally Posted by JandK
I really think the game should offer a free feat to all characters at level one. Not a stat increase, but a feat of some sort, maybe even from a select list. Something to add flavor to the character and change it up a little.

I'm guessing there's data on certain feats that don't get selected that often. Those are the type of feats that should be available for free at level one. They're nice for flavor, but it's typically hard to justify taking them in place of better mechanical options.
Seems like JandK is operating from the premise that developers can (and in this case should) limit OP options that players would otherwise practically always choose, if removing those options makes the game more flavorful and encourages the exploration of different options. I agree; players shouldn't always be responsible for self-limiting themselves. I assume that @JandK's list isn't complete; I could probably go through the 5e feats list and add 5+ more that are rarely picked.

It's also partially a balance thing, similar to why Point Buy exists. Playing in a party where another person is just so much more powerful can be disheartening. Combat feats are almost always applicable, but things like Actor, Athlete, Dungeon Delver, Linguist are fairly specialized and so your character might not often, if ever, really have the time to shine. However, people could really want such feats for added roleplay if they think those feats tie into the character's background, personality, and/or skills.

Perhaps, instead of a dedicated select list, each Background (and/or Class?) could come with a smaller list of applicable feats. This way they'd tie more into the backstory/training of your character, rather than arbitrarily choosing a feat because the game tells you to.
Posted By: Kendaric Re: Free level one feat - 07/08/22 03:41 PM
The problem I see with this suggestion is that a character with racial boni / abilities & a feat at level 1 seems a bit overpowered. I know some people here like that, but I'm not one of them.
Also, it would make the variant human (if Larian implements it) obsolete.
Posted By: The_Red_Queen Re: Free level one feat - 07/08/22 03:50 PM
I agree that there are a number of not-great feats that would give great flavour to a character’s back story but that a player would find it almost impossible to justify picking over more powerful ones in the early game, or even at all.

I quite like this idea of being able to pick from a list of non-ASI feats at character creation, though can see it might be challenging to pick the exact list of underpowered feats that were suitable for this purpose but wouldn’t break balance.
Posted By: zamo Re: Free level one feat - 07/08/22 05:22 PM
Originally Posted by Kendaric
The problem I see with this suggestion is that a character with racial boni / abilities & a feat at level 1 seems a bit overpowered. I know some people here like that, but I'm not one of them.
Also, it would make the variant human (if Larian implements it) obsolete.

How about postponing it until level 5 then? It doesn't have to be at level 1.

Or we get to choose a free feat when we reach a specific milestone in the campaign. Maybe 2-3 times.
Posted By: Saito Hikari Re: Free level one feat - 07/08/22 05:49 PM
Hm. Fun thought exercise.

Originally Posted by Kendaric
The problem I see with this suggestion is that a character with racial boni / abilities & a feat at level 1 seems a bit overpowered. I know some people here like that, but I'm not one of them.
Also, it would make the variant human (if Larian implements it) obsolete.

Variant Human could just get a second bonus feat at level 1. Suddenly not obsolete anymore.

Story milestone feat sounds good at first, until you consider that people are likely to metagame their playthroughs around its existence (and openly spoiling its existence for everyone for build optimization purposes). Minor issue at best though.
Posted By: zamo Re: Free level one feat - 07/08/22 06:49 PM
It doesn't have to be a secret to spoil, though. Larian can openly say "Hey guys you will get an extra feat that you choose from this list at the end of each act, plan accordingly".
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Free level one feat - 07/08/22 07:09 PM
Originally Posted by mrfuji3
limit OP options that players would otherwise practically always choose
Im affraid this isnt possible tho ...

Once you remove some feats people would "allways choose" ... they just start "allways picking" something else.
Would that mean remove that aswell?

And again, and again, until we have only irellevant feats that would practicaly give nothing too interesting?

Like:
Lightly Armoured ... i mean who would take that?
Only Wizard or Sorcerer as far as i know dont have this from the start (feel free to corect me) ... but the problem is, that all robes prepared for Wizard or Sorcerer will be clothing > wasted feat.

Athlete & Weapon master ...
Problem i have with theese is that they also incerases Strength or Dexterity ability score ... seems MUCH more usefull for fighter classes.

Mobile
Perfect choice for combat focused characters aka "the thing everyone would pick" ... i mean just name single class that would never ever ever use more mobility, ignoring difficiulty terain, and canceling AOO. laugh

Skilled
This is something i like the least ... class restrictions for skills are there for some reason (even tho i admit that i dont know it laugh ) and quite honestly i would dare to boldly presume that people would pick the same stuff over and over: either Athletic, or Acrobacy to better resist showe ... perception to find hidden stuff ... and insight to unlock special conversations ...

---

And thats what i dislike about it, i mean the idea itself is good ...
But who should decide wich is "low enough to give freely" and wich is "too OP" ?

What is stronger anyway:
Barbarian that potentialy can give HUGE damage, but also can often miss (and yes i know its not that often as Fighter bcs of Reckless Attack)?
Barbarian that can potentialy hold Rage for much longer bcs he have much more movement?
Barbarian that is much more resistant to showe, and have two more bonuses for skillchecks in conversations?
Or Barbarian that have even more bonuses for starting Ability Scores compared to others?

I dont think this can be answered definitively ...

And therefore i would vote for custom Feats, rather than pick existing.
Have you played Fallout: New Vegas? There is something called "wild wasteland" that changes random encounters to ... well, a little wilder things. laugh
Things like that i would like ... basicaly just flavour, or visual changes ... but nothing too deep from mechanical perspective.
Posted By: Gray Ghost Re: Free level one feat - 07/08/22 08:00 PM
I mean, Larian would decide which to give freely. And just because you can't perfectly limit something doesn't mean limitations shouldn't be put in place. You can't perfectly stop people from shoplifting, but that doesn't mean stores should just let people walk out with products taken straight off the shelves.

Also your point about there being no definitive pick between which of the above choices is stronger feels like an endorsement of the suggested approach honestly. If an argument can be made for all of those, then there won't be any real harm ultimately. Players always find some kind of ideal meta in games, because they collectively spend more time with the game than the devs will, so they'll pick up on patterns and such and be able to find ways to manipulate them. That doesn't mean trying to mitigate it isn't a worthwhile endeavor.

And I would be all for more cosmetic feats that make flavor changes, but I can't imagine what those would be and do. Wild Wasteland (I did play new vegas, the only Fallout game I've played actually) was one option, not multiple.
Posted By: Moradin's hammer Re: Free level one feat - 07/08/22 09:09 PM
We already have backgrounds for character distinction at the start. IMO, leave lvl 1 feats for variant humans. Giving a full feat to everyone at the start would make VH weaker in comparison.
Posted By: JandK Re: Free level one feat - 07/08/22 11:24 PM
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Once you remove some feats people would "allways choose" ... they just start "allways picking" something else.
Would that mean remove that aswell?

It's not really about removing feat choices that people like. They would still get those feat choices at the same point they used to get them during their character growth.

Instead, it's about offering the players the chance to get something different, as well. And if that creates new fan favorites, then great. There's nothing wrong with that.

Originally Posted by Kendaric
The problem I see with this suggestion is that a character with racial boni / abilities & a feat at level 1 seems a bit overpowered. I know some people here like that, but I'm not one of them.
Also, it would make the variant human (if Larian implements it) obsolete.

I just don't see how it would be overpowered.

*

And regarding the variant human:

1. it's not even in the game, and

2. it's completely unnecessary if the regular human gets an extra feat at level one.

3. unless you just want the human to be stronger in comparison to the other races, in which case just give the "variant" human something extra. Personally, I'm not convinced the variant human is necessary if everyone gets a free feat at first level. That's the real draw of the variant in the first place.
Posted By: AusarViled Re: Free level one feat - 08/08/22 12:07 AM
if we have to choose which traits we want to discuss. I am going to list some that could be home brewed into 5.0 fairly easily from 3.5. Most of the 'arche-type feats' could be offered to players as a choice of feat for lvl 1, as they only effect how NPCs treat you in the get go. These could be enough to create an illusion of choice without causing someone to panic.


1) Anti-hero: Your posture gives of a frightening aura, you get -1 roll with scholars, nobles, and lawful checks. Gain +1 in intimidation, survival, and acrobatics

2) doctor: Your posture radiates a calming aura: -1 with deception, sleight of hand, and intimidation checks. Gain +1 with religion, persuasion, and Arcana

3) Magician: you gain +1 in insight, performance, and investigation checks. -1 for persuasion, athletics, and acrobatics.

4) Outcast: you gain +1 in animal handling, medicine and slight of hand. -1 for history, religion, and persuasion.

5) Pretty Boy / Girl: +1 in stealth, +1 in insight, +1 in persuasion. -1 for history, investigation, and athletics.



In addition Larian can add the following feats at lvl 1 from Racials, if the player chooses them over a stat increase:

1) Dragonborn: enhanced scent: you are able to see anyone invisible if they are within 4 cells

2) dwarf: extended burst: able to use a bonus action after using dash

3) elf: Elven Archery: roll a 1d20 to avoid 1 arrow per long rest

4) Gnome / half-ling: Nut Cracker: [bonus action] roll a 1d4 to knock an enemy prone if male, a 1d20 against females

5) half elf: gain +1 with bow and daggers

6) tiefling: tail slam: use your tail to attempt to unbalance [roll a 1d20] [[bonus action]

7) Drow: spellweb: create difficult terrain in a 1 by 1 cell cone



The above is just me spit-balling, but its an idea to keep the discussion moving forward.
Posted By: Kendaric Re: Free level one feat - 08/08/22 12:55 AM
Originally Posted by JandK
Originally Posted by Kendaric
The problem I see with this suggestion is that a character with racial boni / abilities & a feat at level 1 seems a bit overpowered. I know some people here like that, but I'm not one of them.
Also, it would make the variant human (if Larian implements it) obsolete.

I just don't see how it would be overpowered.

*

And regarding the variant human:

1. it's not even in the game, and

2. it's completely unnecessary if the regular human gets an extra feat at level one.

3. unless you just want the human to be stronger in comparison to the other races, in which case just give the "variant" human something extra. Personally, I'm not convinced the variant human is necessary if everyone gets a free feat at first level. That's the real draw of the variant in the first place.

It would be overpowered because some feats give a stat increase besides their feat effect and therefore come with a price... losing your general stat increase for that level. And if you take the racial abilities of some races into account, it should be pretty clear why I consider it overpowered if combined with a feat at level 1.
If it would be implemented as presented in "Tasha's Cauldron of Everything" it might be ok, but otherwise it's not.

The draw of the variant human is the feat at level 1, true. But it comes with a price, you get less stat increases than a standard human. That makes it a choice... do I take the feat at level 1 or do want better stats overall?

You can either have a cake or eat it... not both.
Posted By: JandK Re: Free level one feat - 08/08/22 12:58 AM
Originally Posted by Kendaric
It would be overpowered because some feats give a stat increase besides their feat effect...

You're just saying what it does. Not why it would be overpowered. Then you say it should be clear why it would be overpowered.
Posted By: Dragon_Master Re: Free level one feat - 08/08/22 01:23 AM
Originally Posted by JandK
I really think the game should offer a free feat to all characters at level one. Not a stat increase, but a feat of some sort, maybe even from a select list. Something to add flavor to the character and change it up a little.

I'm guessing there's data on certain feats that don't get selected that often. Those are the type of feats that should be available for free at level one. They're nice for flavor, but it's typically hard to justify taking them in place of better mechanical options.

Things like:

1. Athlete,
2. Lightly armored,
3. Mobile,
4. Skilled,
5. Weapon master, and...

...I also think it would be nice to be able to choose one of the initiate feats.

Is it so bad to want to play, say, a cleric who happens to be proficient with a longsword or a warhammer, but isn't an elf or dwarf? Call me crazy, but I just don't think that's going to break the game. If anything, I think it will make the game a thousand times more interesting.

Just my opinion, but for what it's worth, it's a strongly held opinion.

*

I also think there should be a feat that gives us Shovel as a permanent familiar. I like his character that much.

This actually is something that Variant Humans get in the official rules.

Variant humans get +1 to two attributes of their choice, proficiency in any skill of their choice and a free feat at level 1. In my opinion it should be the default human option. All the other races get so many other bonuses that default humans kind of lag behind.
Posted By: OcO Re: Free level one feat - 08/08/22 01:49 AM
Originally Posted by JandK
Originally Posted by OcO
Originally Posted by JandK
I also think there should be a feat that gives us Shovel as a permanent familiar. I like his character that much.

I have been saying for almost 2 years now that scroll should be changed to a once per long rest item of some kind.

Shovel mentions it's previous master never summoned it for anything fun. To me that implies it was repeatedly summoned which isn't possible from a single use scroll, and if it was summoned even once before the scroll would have been destroyed and we couldn't use it.

I plan on modding it later after release. Before I do though I may try a run where I try to keep it alive the whole way now that familiars don't despawn on long rest.

Except the familiars not despawning thing doesn't work on Shovel, believe it or not.

Shovel still goes away after a long rest.

Sorry slightly off the main topic.

Seriously Shovel still despawns(haven't played this patch)? Well good thing I'm modding it anyway.
Posted By: Kendaric Re: Free level one feat - 08/08/22 01:53 AM
Originally Posted by JandK
Originally Posted by Kendaric
It would be overpowered because some feats give a stat increase besides their feat effect...

You're just saying what it does. Not why it would be overpowered. Then you say it should be clear why it would be overpowered.

Let m give you an example:

Shield Dwarves get +2 CON, free armor proficiency with medium armor, free weapon proficiencies, Darkvision and a few minor boni (not entirely sure whether they get all of it in BG3).

And on top of all of that you want to give them a free feat at level 1.

Now consider what you can do with feats and tell me again it's not overpowered without a price to pay for it.
Posted By: PrivateRaccoon Re: Free level one feat - 08/08/22 03:04 AM
Hmm, I'm torn about it. On one hand I can see the allure for it among players that come from years of 5e TT and, knowing that Larian limiting themselves to the PHB mostly, sees BG3's lack of later implemented subclasses/races with dread.
On the other hand, an extra feat will be yet another thing for a player new to DnD to choose straight away without knowing how it will affect their gameplay. But, that can be eased with good tutorial and infoboxes.

Is it really needed though? Personally I feel that if the current subclasses get implented in a good way, there is enough diversity. And it would be yet another thing Larian had to take into account when balancing the game, and let's be honest here, game balance is not really their strong suite.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Free level one feat - 08/08/22 03:39 AM
Originally Posted by PrivateRaccoon
Is it really needed though? Personally I feel that if the current subclasses get implented in a good way, there is enough diversity. And it would be yet another thing Larian had to take into account when balancing the game, and let's be honest here, game balance is not really their strong suite.

This plus if you give out a feat at level 1 there is even a less chance people will take a feat at level 4 as opposed to ASI.

Take my Half Drow Cleric, Kaedyn. At level 4, I give him the Weapon Master feat so he can use the Sword of Justice. Fits with his Tyrite character. If I got a free feat, I'd have him welding Long swords, Heavy Crossbows, Greatswords, etc., right at level 1. Then, at level 4, ASI. No other feat appeals to me for him, and he'd be a WAY tougher Cleric throughout the entire EA.

Yeah. No. It's unbalanced to hand out free feats. A cleric should not be tougher than a fighter at level 1 in regards to dealing damage. Ya gotta leave some room for characters to grow and learn new things.
Posted By: Niara Re: Free level one feat - 08/08/22 05:02 AM
Originally Posted by AusarViled
if we have to choose which traits we want to discuss. I am going to list some that could be home brewed into 5.0 fairly easily from 3.5. Most of the 'arche-type feats' could be offered to players as a choice of feat for lvl 1, as they only effect how NPCs treat you in the get go. These could be enough to create an illusion of choice without causing someone to panic.

Not going to lie, I actually really enjoyed having those minor character-creation perks that you could take at first level, in 3.5 - little things that give very minor benefits, but a wealth of character flavour and rp potential that even a video game can hook into.

They can be little things like +1 benefits to a couple of specific things, or moderately situational advantages paired with mirror disadvantages, but more importantly for a video game, it would be a flag about your character that the game now has and can use for rp and flavour; it's an excellent tool in that regard, and I'd love to see more of it.

==

As a little clarifier, for information purposes: Technically, there are no such thing as "Skill Checks" in 5e - there are ability checks, and they are written by reference to the ability score that controls them, and if appropriate, a specific skill that assists - so "Wisdom (Perception)" or "Charisma (Intimidation)". Sometimes an ability check doesn't have an associated skill, which is where it is simply written with the ability score, so "Strength check" or "Dexterity check". If you are rolling a d20 and adding the modifier from one of your ability scores (but it isn't an attack roll or a saving throw), then it is an ability check and anything that affects ability checks, affects this. This means that rolling for initiatve (it is a dexterity check), or rolling to attempt a high level counterspell or dispel magic (ability checks using your spellcasting ability score) are also ability checks, and they are also affected by things like luckstones, or for example, Jack of all trades - since they are ability checks that you are not proficient with.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Free level one feat - 08/08/22 10:15 AM
Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
And just because you can't perfectly limit something doesn't mean limitations shouldn't be put in place.
I didnt say that, did i?
What i was talking about was: In my opinion, there is no way to pick wich feats would make your character too strong ... any of them would, in some aspect.
And that is *the* problem.

When i look at JandK list, and once again yes im aware it was just an example ... he mentions there that he would like to have Initiate feats ...
Maybe this is just bcs i dont know rules too well, so i may miss some really cool combinations but:
I honestly cant imagine why would anyone pick anything else than Initiate Druid for Cleric, in order to get your hands on Shillelagh ...
I also cant really imagine why would any Sorcerer/Bard/maybe Wizard/maybe even Paladin pick anything else than Initiate Warlock, in order to get Hex and Eldrich Blast ...

That is what im talking about ...
If you keep removing things that would make us "much" stronger ... you either end up with irellevant, aka boring feats ... OR you leave there one or two options that will be picked every single time, bcs they are the only interesting choices. laugh

Therefore logicaly such system have in my eyes only two ways to work:
A) Allow ALL feats to be picked, ballance be screwed. laugh
B) Create special starting feats, that would add required favour but dont upset ballance too much.

And this:
Originally Posted by AusarViled
1) Anti-hero: Your posture gives of a frightening aura, you get -1 roll with scholars, nobles, and lawful checks. Gain +1 in intimidation, survival, and acrobatics

2) doctor: Your posture radiates a calming aura: -1 with deception, sleight of hand, and intimidation checks. Gain +1 with religion, persuasion, and Arcana

3) Magician: you gain +1 in insight, performance, and investigation checks. -1 for persuasion, athletics, and acrobatics.

4) Outcast: you gain +1 in animal handling, medicine and slight of hand. -1 for history, religion, and persuasion.

5) Pretty Boy / Girl: +1 in stealth, +1 in insight, +1 in persuasion. -1 for history, investigation, and athletics.
Is PERFECT. :3
Even tho im not quite sure why "pretty boy" should get bonus for Stealth ... that one dont really fit in my opinion. smile

But the premise, is just ideal ...
You get some extra bonuses, that adds necesary flavour ... but dont upset ballance in any way, since you also get some drawback ...

So, such feats would receive +100 from me. smile

(Just for the record i didnt like those racial suggestions even a little bit, thats why i left them out. laugh )

Originally Posted by GM4Him
This plus if you give out a feat at level 1 there is even a less chance people will take a feat at level 4 as opposed to ASI.
I think that chance is fairly low allready ...
I mean, feel free to corect me but if im not wrong ... chances that we get up to level 16 are basicaly none ... meaning (presuming we get at least level 12) we will get 3 ASI (4for Rogues and Fighters, unless we get up to level 14 in the end) ...

Meaning basicaly +6 to ability scores ...
Presuming Larian will keep their word and will provide us Rolled Stats ... and presuming that we will be stubborn enough to roll until we get 3x18 (Happened to me at second atempt on Roll20 btw laugh laugh laugh ) ... and with taking under concideration racial bonuses ...

Most of our characters will probably have at least one free (read as: Will not feel any urge to pick ASI since his most important stats will be allready maxed) feat to pick ...
Question is ... is that *really* enough? O_o
Posted By: neprostoman Re: Free level one feat - 08/08/22 10:47 AM
I don't like the idea personally. I think the game offers enough interesting options for lvl 1 already. Also the feats the OP mentioned are kinda lackluster for your main character, but are very good for companions. Weapon Master is one of the strongest options in the game now, for both Wyll and Gale, because you can get 14 DEX and a proficiency with an almost OP hand crossbows and several other light finesse weapons. You'll never worry about how to use your bonus action again. Shadowheart can benefit from Mobile, because all of her attributes are EVEN, and lacks mobility as a cleric. She can also go for the magic initiate cleric or druid to use shillelah and thorn whip effectively. Skilled is very good on a skill monkey human/wood-elf PC. Those feats are very often overlooked just for the sake of +1 on rolls you can get from ability improvement.
Posted By: Topgoon Re: Free level one feat - 08/08/22 02:25 PM
A fallout-esque traits system (with benefits and drawbacks) could be a fun homebrew and nice alternative to a free feat. Adds some build diversity and characteristics. Especially when it has actual tag/world implications. But it can be a lot of work.

And I can totally see some people disliking it strictly because it's homebrewed.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Free level one feat - 08/08/22 02:51 PM
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by GM4Him
This plus if you give out a feat at level 1 there is even a less chance people will take a feat at level 4 as opposed to ASI.
I think that chance is fairly low allready ...
I mean, feel free to corect me but if im not wrong ... chances that we get up to level 16 are basicaly none ... meaning (presuming we get at least level 12) we will get 3 ASI (4for Rogues and Fighters, unless we get up to level 14 in the end) ...

Meaning basicaly +6 to ability scores ...
Presuming Larian will keep their word and will provide us Rolled Stats ... and presuming that we will be stubborn enough to roll until we get 3x18 (Happened to me at second atempt on Roll20 btw laugh laugh laugh ) ... and with taking under concideration racial bonuses ...

Most of our characters will probably have at least one free (read as: Will not feel any urge to pick ASI since his most important stats will be allready maxed) feat to pick ...
Question is ... is that *really* enough? O_o

Presently, there are only a few feats that I even kinda sorta consider. Most, I do not because Larian hasn't given us a real reason to. Gale getting light armor, or Astarion getting medium armor, doesn't do much good because, well, it does them no good. It's a waste. Even Great Weapon Mastery for Lae'zel doesn't really appeal as much as ASI on Strength/Dex.

So, I agree with you that there isn't much appeal for feats to begin with, but that's kinda my point. Allowing for feats at level 1 makes it even LESS likely that people will pick feats at levels 4, 8 or 12. My opinion is that they need to add more interesting feats to fix this. I don't think the answer is to make it worse by providing free feats at level 1.

That said, I agree with Niara that some maybe newly created feats could add flavor to characters, but they'd have to be minor feats - something like, "Honest Looking" adds +2 to Persuasion/Deception checks but -2 to Intimidation. People tend to trust you because you just look trustworthy, but this also means they don't feel threatened by you."
Posted By: neprostoman Re: Free level one feat - 08/08/22 03:35 PM
Astarion getting medium armor also comes with a shield proficiency which gives him 2 extra AC and also he can wear some unique items he otherwise couldn't like speedy lightfeet, metal helmet, metal gauntlets etc. Lightly armored for Gale opens up the ability to wear Spidersilk armor which is insanely good for preventing the concentration breaks. Try playing with those feats, you might find a lot of interesting opportunities beneath the surface.
Posted By: Gray Ghost Re: Free level one feat - 08/08/22 03:36 PM
I have to say that I don't really see why people being less likely to take a feat at level 4 is a problem in itself? It seems like the real problem is that there aren't enough good feats to entice players. I'm mostly neutral to the subject, leaning towards being in favor of it, but to me if giving a free feat at level one means there aren't attractive feats down the line, then the problem is with feats, not when you get them.

I don't think I've ever taken a feat in the game, mostly because I don't think I understand the game well enough to know the value of feats. It never seems worth it in exchange for the stat increases. If I got a free one at level one, then I'd at least take one feat, as opposed to none like I usually do.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Free level one feat - 08/08/22 03:44 PM
Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
I have to say that I don't really see why people being less likely to take a feat at level 4 is a problem in itself? It seems like the real problem is that there aren't enough good feats to entice players. I'm mostly neutral to the subject, leaning towards being in favor of it, but to me if giving a free feat at level one means there aren't attractive feats down the line, then the problem is with feats, not when you get them.

I don't think I've ever taken a feat in the game, mostly because I don't think I understand the game well enough to know the value of feats. It never seems worth it in exchange for the stat increases. If I got a free one at level one, then I'd at least take one feat, as opposed to none like I usually do.

Like I said, a minor feat that maybe provides a slight situational bonus or even a bonus and a flaw at the same time is fine. However, what I don't want to see is a free feat like Weapon Master. It completely offsets the balance, allowing classes that are not martial classes to start with martial weapons. You could have a druid with Greatswords and Longswords and such, making them much tougher than they should be at lower levels. You could have a wizard able to use a shield.

Feats you can get at level 4 are supposed to show character growth and maturity. It shows that after a bit of experience and training, your character was able to train themselves how to use 4 new weapons (Weapon Mastery) or a shield, or better armor, or whatever. Provide characters with a starter feat, if not limiting to very minor feats, would again leave characters with even less room to grow than the game already has. All you have left is ASI because the maybe 1 feat you might consider taking at level 4 you can get at level 1.

Yes. New feats and better feats are MUCH needed in BG3. They should really entice players to take them as opposed to an ASI.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Free level one feat - 08/08/22 03:48 PM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
So, I agree with you that there isn't much appeal for feats to begin with
Nah, that was not my point. laugh
I mean yes i said it ... and yes i meaned it that way ... so im glad we agree. laugh

But i was primarly trying to point out not that there isnt much appeal ... more like there isnt much opportunities to do that even if you want to.
I mean from what i read (and i may misunderstand something, it wouldnt be the first time, as im sure you know laugh ) the more i read about 5e (and i admit im still a newbie) the more it seems like the system works the best if you have it whole (meaning up to level 20) ... once you put cap somewhere in the middle, flaws starts to show up. :-/

From what i have heared, there are classes like Monk who are HEAVILY dependent on having corect Ability Scores ... and even if you would like to have some feats, waiting for them to the endgame, or spending most of the game conciderable weaker for it ... i dunno, it seems like something that sucks. :-/

For that reason i would probably not be strictly against alowing any Feat at lvl 1 ... so we have "at least one" for sure, bcs not everyone of us would have such luck as i had in Roll20 ... :-/

Originally Posted by GM4Him
I agree with Niara that some maybe newly created feats could add flavor to characters, but they'd have to be minor feats
Yup!

Have you seen this?
Originally Posted by AusarViled
1) Anti-hero: Your posture gives of a frightening aura, you get -1 roll with scholars, nobles, and lawful checks. Gain +1 in intimidation, survival, and acrobatics

2) doctor: Your posture radiates a calming aura: -1 with deception, sleight of hand, and intimidation checks. Gain +1 with religion, persuasion, and Arcana

3) Magician: you gain +1 in insight, performance, and investigation checks. -1 for persuasion, athletics, and acrobatics.

4) Outcast: you gain +1 in animal handling, medicine and slight of hand. -1 for history, religion, and persuasion.

5) Pretty Boy / Girl: +1 in stealth, +1 in insight, +1 in persuasion. -1 for history, investigation, and athletics.
Purrfect, isnt it? smile
Posted By: Gray Ghost Re: Free level one feat - 08/08/22 04:07 PM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
I have to say that I don't really see why people being less likely to take a feat at level 4 is a problem in itself? It seems like the real problem is that there aren't enough good feats to entice players. I'm mostly neutral to the subject, leaning towards being in favor of it, but to me if giving a free feat at level one means there aren't attractive feats down the line, then the problem is with feats, not when you get them.

I don't think I've ever taken a feat in the game, mostly because I don't think I understand the game well enough to know the value of feats. It never seems worth it in exchange for the stat increases. If I got a free one at level one, then I'd at least take one feat, as opposed to none like I usually do.

Like I said, a minor feat that maybe provides a slight situational bonus or even a bonus and a flaw at the same time is fine. However, what I don't want to see is a free feat like Weapon Master. It completely offsets the balance, allowing classes that are not martial classes to start with martial weapons. You could have a druid with Greatswords and Longswords and such, making them much tougher than they should be at lower levels. You could have a wizard able to use a shield.

Feats you can get at level 4 are supposed to show character growth and maturity. It shows that after a bit of experience and training, your character was able to train themselves how to use 4 new weapons (Weapon Mastery) or a shield, or better armor, or whatever. Provide characters with a starter feat, if not limiting to very minor feats, would again leave characters with even less room to grow than the game already has. All you have left is ASI because the maybe 1 feat you might consider taking at level 4 you can get at level 1.

Yes. New feats and better feats are MUCH needed in BG3. They should really entice players to take them as opposed to an ASI.

Okay, I get what you mean now. I think choosing from a set list of more situational feats(I don't know what feats are really out there to begin with honestly) would be best, yeah. Rather than access to every feat available.

I definitely also like that list of custom feats. Those are all fun and flavorful.
Posted By: Lotus Noctus Re: Free level one feat - 08/08/22 04:11 PM
The really good feats like sharpshooter, expert crossbow etc. don't exist yet, nor should they be available as a LVL 1 feat as others have pointed out. Magic Innates are great for spellcasters, there's a little more cantrip/spell variety + an extra spell, although you're not limited to your own caster class. An additional spell in the low-level area is always a nice-to-have and don't forget that even with several cantrips you can only use one per turn anyway. So it shouldn't be a big problem.

LVL 1 feats for non spellcasters could be Mobile, Alert (or maybe its to strong with +5 initiative at low level), Chef (nice RP flavor and depending on the effectiveness of the feat a little bit more heal support), Lucky and maybe Dual Wielder (mainly to wear your favorite weapons from the very beginning).
Posted By: Niara Re: Free level one feat - 09/08/22 03:59 AM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
minor feats - something like, "Honest Looking" adds +2 to Persuasion/Deception checks but -2 to Intimidation. People tend to trust you because you just look trustworthy, but this also means they don't feel threatened by you."

Given that they'd be basically background freebies specifically for character creation and available only at that time, and also within the scope of 5e's bounded accuracy, I would keep those benefits to +1/-1, but in general, yeah; I like these as minor perks that are a springboard for character flavour, directed by the player ands told to the game, for it to then use. (Tie this in to my other suggestion for an in-universes character defining progression as part of the tutorial that helps you tell the game who you are and where you're from, and you've got something beautiful, in terms of ability to characterise yourself to the game)
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Free level one feat - 09/08/22 08:34 AM
Originally Posted by Niara
Originally Posted by GM4Him
minor feats - something like, "Honest Looking" adds +2 to Persuasion/Deception checks but -2 to Intimidation. People tend to trust you because you just look trustworthy, but this also means they don't feel threatened by you."

Given that they'd be basically background freebies specifically for character creation and available only at that time, and also within the scope of 5e's bounded accuracy, I would keep those benefits to +1/-1, but in general, yeah; I like these as minor perks that are a springboard for character flavour, directed by the player ands told to the game, for it to then use. (Tie this in to my other suggestion for an in-universes character defining progression as part of the tutorial that helps you tell the game who you are and where you're from, and you've got something beautiful, in terms of ability to characterise yourself to the game)

Nice. I like it.
Posted By: 7d7 Re: Free level one feat - 13/08/22 06:56 AM
Respectfully OP, BG3 is trying to port 5e to the video game format.

Feat aren't given at level 1 (first is level 4). Only exception, which I hope would be implemented, being the variant human.

While ideas and feedbacks are great, it would be good to channel them on missing features rather than new, non-core, features. It is only my opinion of course.
Posted By: 1varangian Re: Free level one feat - 13/08/22 08:06 AM
Originally Posted by 7d7
Respectfully OP, BG3 is trying to port 5e to the video game format.

Feat aren't given at level 1 (first is level 4). Only exception, which I hope would be implemented, being the variant human.

While ideas and feedbacks are great, it would be good to channel them on missing features rather than new, non-core, features. It is only my opinion of course.
Coming from 3.x, 5e feels really bland being so stingy with feats. I think coupling feats with ability score increases was a really bad design choice. Having to choose between feat or ASI is not a fun choice and feats are great at making PC's feel unique, also mechanically.

I'm fully expecting WotC to fix this mistake in the next edition of D&D. And in the meantime, BG3 could have it's own house rule. The level-ups where you don't get to make any choices and just wait for "accept" to become active are really meh in BG3. So perhaps even ASI's should be spread out more to +1 every two levels. That would already give you a choice on level 2 which is now really lackluster for many classes. Then a feat at level 3 like in previous editions... at least one choice per level up.
Posted By: 7d7 Re: Free level one feat - 13/08/22 08:13 AM
Perhaps BG4 would port 6e. Until then it makes little sense to not stick to source material for the base game. Then nothing prevent you from going homebrew in a mod but deviating too much in the base game makes little sense beside minor arrangement to fit to the video game format.

So clearly +1 on having the variant human.
But for custom, fitting your own preferences, rules go mod. It is meant for this.
Posted By: 1varangian Re: Free level one feat - 13/08/22 08:22 AM
Originally Posted by 7d7
Perhaps BG4 would port 6e. Until then it makes little sense to not stick to source material for the base game. Then nothing prevent you from going homebrew in a mod but deviating too much in the base game makes little sense beside minor arrangement to fit to the video game format.

So clearly +1 on having the variant human.
But for custom, fitting your own preferences, rules go mod. It is meant for this.
By this logic you would also want the completely lackluster Ranger class no one likes instead of the altered Ranger we have now? I'm just saying 5e is not perfect and since some things were changed, others can as well.
Posted By: C0rath Re: Free level one feat - 13/08/22 08:55 AM
Originally Posted by 1varangian
Originally Posted by 7d7
Respectfully OP, BG3 is trying to port 5e to the video game format.

Feat aren't given at level 1 (first is level 4). Only exception, which I hope would be implemented, being the variant human.

While ideas and feedbacks are great, it would be good to channel them on missing features rather than new, non-core, features. It is only my opinion of course.
Coming from 3.x, 5e feels really bland being so stingy with feats. I think coupling feats with ability score increases was a really bad design choice. Having to choose between feat or ASI is not a fun choice and feats are great at making PC's feel unique, also mechanically.

I'm fully expecting WotC to fix this mistake in the next edition of D&D. And in the meantime, BG3 could have it's own house rule. The level-ups where you don't get to make any choices and just wait for "accept" to become active are really meh in BG3. So perhaps even ASI's should be spread out more to +1 every two levels. That would already give you a choice on level 2 which is now really lackluster for many classes. Then a feat at level 3 like in previous editions... at least one choice per level up.

IMO it's ok to have low customization in tabletop version, where you can focus on roleplay more. But in cRPG we want to have options. That's why I like weapon abilities or changes in ranger class.
I was thinking about second specialization for each class. This specialization should have it's own pool of professions.
Posted By: 7d7 Re: Free level one feat - 13/08/22 09:19 AM
Originally Posted by 1varangian
Originally Posted by 7d7
Perhaps BG4 would port 6e. Until then it makes little sense to not stick to source material for the base game. Then nothing prevent you from going homebrew in a mod but deviating too much in the base game makes little sense beside minor arrangement to fit to the video game format.

So clearly +1 on having the variant human.
But for custom, fitting your own preferences, rules go mod. It is meant for this.
By this logic you would also want the completely lackluster Ranger class no one likes instead of the altered Ranger we have now? I'm just saying 5e is not perfect and since some things were changed, others can as well.

Exactly: I want the core to be implemented and then DL a ranger mod if wanted. I don't want to have to DL a 5e mod because the 5e BG3 porting is drastically altered by non 5e querries. And adding another feat IS a drastic change. I am not saying it is bad and I might even play it if modded. I am merely pointing to the fact having first a stable and efficient 5e porting is what matters.
Posted By: neprostoman Re: Free level one feat - 13/08/22 09:47 AM
I get your point, but consider this:

Compare the level of credibility of a well-known and respected game developer and a modder/group of modders, but imaging making the comparison as an average player (not the one that knows that modding can do thing even better, sometimes).

People pay Larian to get the enjoyable final product, betting on the high level of credibility of a game developing studio. Imaging the player then getting all hyped to play a ranger and having a completely shallow experience playing it, because Larian decided that balance and all around rewarding experience is not a priority against copying 5e raw.
Posted By: Kendaric Re: Free level one feat - 13/08/22 09:47 AM
Originally Posted by 7d7
Exactly: I want the core to be implemented and then DL a ranger mod if wanted. I don't want to have to DL a 5e mod because the 5e BG3 porting is drastically altered by non 5e querries. And adding another feat IS a drastic change. I am not saying it is bad and I might even play it if modded. I am merely pointing to the fact having first a stable and efficient 5e porting is what matters.

Agreed, the base game should stick with 5e rules as much as possible. Stuff like more feats or ASIs should be left to mods, since those will drastically change the balance and core mechanics of 5e.

Regarding the ranger stuff... I'd have prefered it if they at least had kept the favored enemy feature as per PHB. The changes to favored terrain are good, though.
Posted By: 7d7 Re: Free level one feat - 13/08/22 10:30 AM
Originally Posted by neprostoman
I get your point, but consider this:

Compare the level of credibility of a well-known and respected game developer and a modder/group of modders, but imaging making the comparison as an average player (not the one that knows that modding can do thing even better, sometimes).

People pay Larian to get the enjoyable final product, betting on the high level of credibility of a game developing studio. Imaging the player then getting all hyped to play a ranger and having a completely shallow experience playing it, because Larian decided that balance and all around rewarding experience is not a priority against copying 5e raw.
I can assure you playing a 5e ranger with a good party and DM isn't a shallow experience. Your build isn't everything. I often go dual welding as a (drow) ranger despite it being clearly suboptimal.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Free level one feat - 13/08/22 02:27 PM
@7d7 ...
Question: Presuming this suggestion would be implemented ... what exactly would be stoping you from taking none and play exactly as you want? O_o
Posted By: 7d7 Re: Free level one feat - 13/08/22 03:03 PM
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
@7d7 ...
Question: Presuming this suggestion would be implemented ... what exactly would be stoping you from taking none and play exactly as you want? O_o

Not sure what your point is. I would like to play as a giant death robot (aka GDR) with 20 in all stats and heavy Armor proficiency. I really have this fantasy of steamrolling content, something missing in the boring and 5e.

If giant death robots are in game what would prevent you from not using them?

=> Some people are asking for additions (and that's okay), however it is legitimate to question the necessity of such request when core 5e content precisely mirroring that request (variant human) have yet to be implemented.

I think it is fair to have GDR/variant everything as suggestion once we are 90% there is core content. Which we are not.
Posted By: Gray Ghost Re: Free level one feat - 13/08/22 03:12 PM
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
@7d7 ...
Question: Presuming this suggestion would be implemented ... what exactly would be stoping you from taking none and play exactly as you want? O_o

The obvious answer to this is that the companions would probably be statted to have them, and so not taking one (assuming this were implemented as an actual option and not as a required part of character creation, which I feel like it would be) would put you at a disadvantage compared to the rest of the party.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Free level one feat - 13/08/22 03:31 PM
Originally Posted by 7d7
Not sure what your point is.
No point, just a question ...
Im in general curious about things that dont make sense to me.

And denying people something they want based on my not wanting it, while i can easily avoid it and act as if it never existed ... yeah, i have hard time understanding that.

Originally Posted by 7d7
I would like to play as a giant death robot (aka GDR) with 20 in all stats and heavy Armor proficiency. I really have this fantasy of steamrolling content, something missing in the boring and 5e.
I see no conection to the topic ...
Wouldnt it be better example, if you would NOT wish to play as this? O_o

Originally Posted by 7d7
If giant death robots are in game what would prevent you from not using them?
Nothing, that is my point. smile
You would be perfectly free to take one, if that is what you wish ... you would be perfectly free to take something else, if that is what you wish.

Everyone happy.

Originally Posted by 7d7
=> Some people are asking for additions (and that's okay), however it is legitimate to question the necessity of such request when core 5e content precisely mirroring that request (variant human) have yet to be implemented.
2 things:

1) If it is legitimate to question necessity of requests ... then it should be perfectly legitimate to question necessity of denying those requests, based on exactly same precedent.

2) It dont "precisely mirroring existing content" ...
Bcs Variant Human get reduced Ability Scores improvement, and (more importantly) its for single race only (Or at least i never heared anyone around here talking about Variant Tiefling, Half-Orc, Dwarf, Halfling, Gnome, Githyanki, etc.) ... it dont even exclude that missing content, bcs as it was said, Variant Humans would simply get two feats instead of one > Ballance restored. wink

Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
The obvious answer to this is that the companions would probably be statted to have them, and so not taking one (assuming this were implemented as an actual option and not as a required part of character creation, which I feel like it would be) would put you at a disadvantage compared to the rest of the party.
You are adding more asumptions ...

I could aswell argue that they would not, to make your character even more special, compared to companions. smile
Posted By: mrfuji3 Re: Free level one feat - 13/08/22 03:45 PM
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
@7d7 ...
Question: Presuming this suggestion would be implemented ... what exactly would be stoping you from taking none and play exactly as you want? O_o
Presumably the game. I don't think you can just not select features (feats or class abilities or ASIs) when you level up in BG3, unless I'm mistaken(?). I suppose you could take a useless feat, but that's definitely not the same.

Originally Posted by 1varangian
Coming from 3.x, 5e feels really bland being so stingy with feats. I think coupling feats with ability score increases was a really bad design choice. Having to choose between feat or ASI is not a fun choice and feats are great at making PC's feel unique, also mechanically.

I'm fully expecting WotC to fix this mistake in the next edition of D&D. And in the meantime, BG3 could have it's own house rule. The level-ups where you don't get to make any choices and just wait for "accept" to become active are really meh in BG3. So perhaps even ASI's should be spread out more to +1 every two levels. That would already give you a choice on level 2 which is now really lackluster for many classes. Then a feat at level 3 like in previous editions... at least one choice per level up.
+1

I like the idea of getting a +1 every 2 levels instead of +2 every 4 levels, although that's a very minor improvement.
A feat at level 3 isn't necessary imo, as that's a big level for practically all classes. You choose your subclass and/or get 2nd level spells (along with a doubling of spell slots). Especially in a system where we get +1 ASI every 2 levels, I'd put a feat choice at levels 1, 4, and 8 (the current ASI levels).
Posted By: The_Red_Queen Re: Free level one feat - 13/08/22 04:42 PM
Originally Posted by 1varangian
Originally Posted by 7d7
Respectfully OP, BG3 is trying to port 5e to the video game format.

Feat aren't given at level 1 (first is level 4). Only exception, which I hope would be implemented, being the variant human.

While ideas and feedbacks are great, it would be good to channel them on missing features rather than new, non-core, features. It is only my opinion of course.
Coming from 3.x, 5e feels really bland being so stingy with feats. I think coupling feats with ability score increases was a really bad design choice. Having to choose between feat or ASI is not a fun choice and feats are great at making PC's feel unique, also mechanically. I'm fully expecting WotC to fix this mistake in the next edition of D&D.

That’s great point! It would be so much better if we didn’t have to make a choice between ASIs, which usually are going to be the more generally useful picks, and more flavourful but situationally limited feats.

I don’t want Larian to go totally off-piste with the rules either, though, so wouldn’t want them to just change this unilaterally. But if in conversation with WoTC it is indeed confirmed that the direction of travel is for ASIs and feats to be separately picked, and they agree an implementation that is likely to be reflected in future changes to 5e rules, then I’d be all for implementing this into BG3. I believe that something like this was what happened with the ranger?
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Free level one feat - 13/08/22 04:47 PM
Originally Posted by mrfuji3
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
@7d7 ...
Question: Presuming this suggestion would be implemented ... what exactly would be stoping you from taking none and play exactly as you want? O_o
Presumably the game. I don't think you can just not select features (feats or class abilities or ASIs) when you level up in BG3, unless I'm mistaken(?). I suppose you could take a useless feat, but that's definitely not the same.
No, you cant ...

But the suggestion was:
Originally Posted by JandK
I really think the game should offer a free feat to all characters at level one.
Feel free to corect me in my english, but as far as i ... "know" (for the lack of better word) offerings are usualy refuseable. smile

So ... logicaly, there should be option "no thank you".
Posted By: mrfuji3 Re: Free level one feat - 13/08/22 05:24 PM
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
the suggestion was:
Originally Posted by JandK
I really think the game should offer a free feat to all characters at level one.
Feel free to corect me in my english, but as far as i ... "know" (for the lack of better word) offerings are usualy refuseable. smile

So ... logicaly, there should be option "no thank you".
"Offer" here is being used synonymously with "give," a standard phrasing when talking about video game rewards/level ups. E.g., DOS quests "offer" a choice of rewards, but you still need to pick one.

The intent was obviously that it's a mandatory selection just as every other character option.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Free level one feat - 13/08/22 09:06 PM
/shrug ...

Thats not how i read it ...
Anyway! Since we hardly can give any proof about how would Larian implement something they didnt ...

Hy po the ti ca lly ... would you mind "option" to pick Feat on lvl 1 ... presuming it would aply for PC only and presuming you would have option to refuse any? smile
Posted By: 7d7 Re: Free level one feat - 14/08/22 03:22 AM
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
2 things:

1) If it is legitimate to question necessity of requests ... then it should be perfectly legitimate to question necessity of denying those requests, based on exactly same precedent.

2) It dont "precisely mirroring existing content" ...
Bcs Variant Human get reduced Ability Scores improvement, and (more importantly) its for single race only (Or at least i never heared anyone around here talking about Variant Tiefling, Half-Orc, Dwarf, Halfling, Gnome, Githyanki, etc.) ... it dont even exclude that missing content, bcs as it was said, Variant Humans would simply get two feats instead of one > Ballance restored. wink

1. You are correct and an obvious answer to validate or deny such request would be the PHB.

2. That's my point before having variant everything e.g. variant half-orc or other frivolous additional content e.g. a GDR. It is legitimate to get the variant human, first. There wouldn't be a balance restored: variant being only human is the actual core game. I will argue I d rather have Tasha caldron of everything content implemented (with new subclasses etc...) Before custom content. Lastly this is typically what mod should be catering for.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Free level one feat - 14/08/22 07:02 AM
Originally Posted by 7d7
1. You are correct and an obvious answer to validate or deny such request would be the PHB.
Yes you said that before ...
And my question was: Why?
Posted By: 7d7 Re: Free level one feat - 14/08/22 07:34 AM
Because Larian said, pitched and obtained to do Baldur's Gate 3 with the PHB from 5e as source material ? (Hence the name, your argument would be valid for DOS 3 of course)
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Free level one feat - 14/08/22 07:53 AM
Yup, a "source material" ... not "the one and only" source material, and certainly not "just 5e PHB, completely unchanged and nothing else" ...
My question stands unchanged.

You can have exactly what you want ...
Others can have exactly what they want ...
Why do you care what they have?
Posted By: 7d7 Re: Free level one feat - 14/08/22 08:07 AM
Because I prefer the source material to be implemented first, and discuss custom content second. (I ll argue this to be... Logical?)

As per why can't everyone desire can be implemented in one game: simple a. Larian has a finite amount of resources so I would be frustrated for a custom addition to take precedence over source material b. If every custom content is implemented then game would lack cohesion (e.g. your variant demi-orc is no more valid than my GDR sentient construct)
Posted By: Gray Ghost Re: Free level one feat - 14/08/22 08:08 AM
Originally Posted by 7d7
2. That's my point before having variant everything e.g. variant half-orc or other frivolous additional content e.g. a GDR. It is legitimate to get the variant human, first. There wouldn't be a balance restored: variant being only human is the actual core game. I will argue I d rather have Tasha caldron of everything content implemented (with new subclasses etc...) Before custom content. Lastly this is typically what mod should be catering for.


Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
You can have exactly what you want ...
Others can have exactly what they want ...
Why do you care what they have?

I want to point out that what he's arguing for is to get what he wants first, with his argument being, it's the source material so Larian should aim to implement it first before anything else. An argument I'm not against even though I'm mildly in favor of the free level one feat.

However I do personally feel like no, everyone can't get what they want, because implementing everything everyone wants from this game isn't possible. That would require time and money that Larian probably doesn't have, becase it would require a hell of a lot of time and money. To satisfy those who want something loyal to D&D, a number of changes would hve to be made that would have knock-on effects throughout everything in the game. Larian at some point has to pick a lane, and it seems fairly apparent that they already have. Some people won't like it, but that's fine. Not every game is for every person and it shouldn't be on the player to craft a game themselves into something they'll enjoy. I don't say this to advocate for one side over another, but to think that Baldrs Gate 3 is going to be some ultimate game that can give everyone everything is a pipe dream.

As just one example, let's look at those who want monsters to be faithful to D&D stats. if Larian does that, then they need to rework a number of encounters throughout the first act to get the powerlevels right. If they implement an option for that, then they effectively have to create two different sets of encounters in a lot of places. Then they have to factor in weapon abilities, how their homebrew thingscan impact difficulty of encounters, etc.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Free level one feat - 14/08/22 11:59 AM
Oh come on people stay on topic ...
When i say "everything" in topic about level 1 feats, im (suprisingly?) talking about level 1 feats ... so dont bring any stats, or weapon abilities ... focus. -_-

For two ... i was expecting "resource" excuse to be used sooner or later, and note that i say excuse, not argument ... bcs that is simply not our business.
We are supposed to say Larian what would we like ... and they then decide if they like it aswell, or not ... and if they (not us) will (read as: can) implement it or not.

Since we all know from Swen himself that they spend quite conciderable amount of time and resources trying to figure all possible ways to give us Shadowheart's Mysterious Box ... instead of just puting it on piedestal on Nautiloid and give us "it flows towards you as you approach closer" ...
If we can learn single thing for certain from this information, is that Larian dont give a shit about what something they want will cost. :P laugh

As for wanting things first ...
We were told again by Swen himself that they will keep races hidden from us til final release, so we have at least some surprise ... so (again logicaly) IF there even will be Variant Human, it would likely be revealed by the release.
Also it once again sounds like a lame excuse, bcs argument were not "do that later" ... it was "dont do that at all".
Posted By: 7d7 Re: Free level one feat - 14/08/22 01:32 PM
Resource was the first valid argument, second argument was about starting by implementing the source material (I do hope as well we will get variant human). Third argument that you ignored is that you cannot implement anyone idea without inducing some form of chaos.

The DnD ecosystem isn't perfect. 5e isn't perfect. But even if variant human where there I would rather have larian work on Tasha caldron of everything content and have non-core ideas such as variant everything implemented through a mod.

The reason we do have a Phb is to have a reference. So it isn't chaos. It is THE reference. Doesn't mean it can't be modded or, better said, home-brewed. I can see mods as being a great source of homebrew content. And I hope larian would enable modding. I ll argue people motivated by such a simple change should actually implement it themselves.
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