The way Long Rests are currently implemented is quite contradictory due to the substantial amount of story content locked behind them and how easily that content is missed or never even experienced if the player immerses fully into the story.- From a gameplay perspective, the game encourages the player to extensively Long Rest all the time even when they don't need to rest, in order to experience all of the companion interactions and dream sequences.
- From a story perspective, the story discourages wasting time due to how wonderfully it instills fear into the player by portraying the effects of ceremorphosis so intricately and applying the imaginary pressure of time through Lae'zel and others.
So the story and the mechanic end up clashing against each other and ruining both aspects of the game, thus creating a problem.- By extensively resting in order to talk with our companions, we're slightly breaking the immersion of the story and going against the pressure of time.
- And by extensively not resting, we are permanently missing out on some scenes and by continuing to do so missing out on 50% of substantial story content, thus breaking the flow of the story and not building a relationship with our companions.
One of the main problems with this is the fact that Long Rests provide only one companion scene per rest while at the same time some scenes can only occur before certain events, such as entering the Grove or talking to Zorru.
So in order to experience these scenes and assuming the player obtains Shadowheart, Lae'zel, Gale and Astarion before getting to the Grove, we'd need to throw story immersion out the window and consecutively rest several times to witness Shadowheart's and Lae'zel's scenes specifically meant before getting to the Grove. And the problem is the area is so small and trivial in terms of difficulty and length, that the player can go through the entire content of the Nautiloid crash and the entire Grove without resting a single time whatsoever, thus permanently missing out on some unique scenes.Because right now it looks like this after gathering all four companions after the crash:- Rest - Talk to Gale (Eleasis 21st)
- Rest - Talk to Shadowheart (Eleasis 22nd)
- Rest - Talk to Lae'zel (Eleasis 23rd)
- Rest - Talk to Astarion (Eleasis 24th)
- Eleasis 25th - Finally experienced pre-Grove unique dialogue
.
So to make Long Rests less illogical and contradictory to the story immersion;
- Why not make make all companions who wish to talk with us available, instead of only one per rest.
- Why not make a simple conversation indicator that replaces the REST button whenever someone in the camp wishes to speak with us, so the player knows there is content in the camp.
This way the player;
- Would not be afraid of missing out on meaningful companion dialogue if there is an indicator telling us that someone wishes to speak with us in the camp
- Would not need to consecutively spam Long Rests to experience companion interactions as multiple companions would be able to talk with us during a single Long Rest
- Would severely reduce the amount of Long Rests required to experience companion stories and make it more immersive with the story
- Would make the Long Rests less frequent and more spaced in-between content
Because in my current playthrough 37 days have passed since the Nautiloid crash (From 20th of Eleasis to 27th of Eleint). Also I think they misspelled the Eleint month.
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/vIqsJtn.jpg)
However at least half of those days were before I even left the Grove and not a single day spent was a Full Rest, only Partial Rests because I didn't wish to miss any story content and never even need to rest.
Long Rests allowing every companion to speak with us in a single rest and having an indicator that replaces the REST button while exploring, so we know when they wish to talk.
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/lhT3SGh.jpg)
Long Rests clearly indicating when a camp scene involves all companions present (such as the discussions about dreams and events)
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/kKapISz.jpg)
[b]
So to make Long Rests less illogical and contradictory to the story immersion;- Why not make make all companions who wish to talk with us available, instead of only one per rest.
- Why not make a simple conversation indicator that replaces the REST button whenever someone in the camp wishes to speak with us, so the player knows there is content in the camp.
+1 It's a bit of a heavy handed solution, and usually I would advocate for a more thorough solution, but at this point, I think this is the best one could hope for.
I would worry we could run into Dragon Age: Origins situation, where I would be reluctant to go to camp to spend the next hour of gameplay slogging through repetitive companion exposition and biography dumps, but BG3 cutscenes have been short and snappy so far, so even stacking multiple in one rest shouldn't be an issue.
Yea a little replacement of the resting icon would be nice - Obviously not a fix to other underlying criticism-worthy things but for sure is a low cost quality of life improvement.
+1
Not going to lie, this is probably one of the main issues I have with the game, having to rest multiple times to make sure I don't miss anything before progressing "the main" story or before big events so to say will be bothersome. Atleast in EA I sort of know when my companions have something to say but I'll worry I'll be spamming rest alot in unknown content at release because I have no idea when something interesting is going to happen!
Also for players who have no idea how the companion dialogue system works might miss out on a bunch of story if there's no notifications when one your companions wants to talk.
+1
SWTOR uses icons on character portraits when a character wants to talk, which works well.
Just to mention, right now, as of the current patch 8, you can get multiple companion scenes in one rest.
Usually, you'll only get one exclamation point, but if you talk to the other characters they'll sometimes have scenes for you also. Even though they didn't display an exclamation point because someone else did.
For example, you can get things like Gale's "go to hell" scene and his vanity grooming scene even when he doesn't have the exclamation point. Things like that all over. Even Astarion's star gazing scene and looking in the mirror scene.
I usually try to talk to all of my companions each rest. And I do so multiple times until their conversation has reverted back to the generic lines.
+1 You have my full support on this!
Just to mention, right now, as of the current patch 8, you can get multiple companion scenes in one rest.
[...]
I usually try to talk to all of my companions each rest. And I do so multiple times until their conversation has reverted back to the generic lines.
True, however :
- This is not consistent. Sometimes, we get the other dialogues, sometimes we don't.
- This is not intuitive at all. Especially because of the lack of visual indicator.
- This sometimes causes some repeats in dialogue. For instance, I had the stargazing scene with Astarion and then the one with Laez'el. The later appeared again on the next long rest.
- They implemented a system where the order in which we talk to the companions is important and leading to missing some important exchange. This feels a bit arbitrary and unfair to me. Especially on blind playthrough. How do you know that the order in important? How do you know which one to talk to first? The story we have with our companions should not be sacrificed for "replay value" (if that's the argument). The existence of multiple classes/races/paths manages that.
Edit: I missed that reply :
Not going to lie, this is probably one of the main issues I have with the game [...]
Same!
+1 It's a bit of a heavy handed solution, and usually I would advocate for a more thorough solution, but at this point, I think this is the best one could hope for.
I would worry we could run into Dragon Age: Origins situation, where I would be reluctant to go to camp to spend the next hour of gameplay slogging through repetitive companion exposition and biography dumps, but BG3 cutscenes have been short and snappy so far, so even stacking multiple in one rest shouldn't be an issue.
Yea a little replacement of the resting icon would be nice - Obviously not a fix to other underlying criticism-worthy things but for sure is a low cost quality of life improvement.
I agree. Unfortunately this isn't a fix to the resting mechanic as a whole, it's more of a way to make it less of a contradiction between itself and the story. Personally I'd love to see the resting mechanic entirely re-envisioned so it perfectly feels cohesive with everything else, but I don't wish to expect major revisions of features so I try to see what could make the current mechanics better in their current state.
+1
Not going to lie, this is probably one of the main issues I have with the game, having to rest multiple times to make sure I don't miss anything before progressing "the main" story or before big events so to say will be bothersome. Atleast in EA I sort of know when my companions have something to say but I'll worry I'll be spamming rest alot in unknown content at release because I have no idea when something interesting is going to happen!
Also for players who have no idea how the companion dialogue system works might miss out on a bunch of story if there's no notifications when one your companions wants to talk.
Yes, unfortunately same fear here. I love the story and especially love the companions, so I do not want to miss any sort of interaction with them.
Just to mention, right now, as of the current patch 8, you can get multiple companion scenes in one rest.
Usually, you'll only get one exclamation point, but if you talk to the other characters they'll sometimes have scenes for you also. Even though they didn't display an exclamation point because someone else did.
For example, you can get things like Gale's "go to hell" scene and his vanity grooming scene even when he doesn't have the exclamation point. Things like that all over. Even Astarion's star gazing scene and looking in the mirror scene.
I usually try to talk to all of my companions each rest. And I do so multiple times until their conversation has reverted back to the generic lines.
Oh I'm aware. I talk to every single one each time there is a dialogue prompt, and I talk twice because they also have dialogues sometimes after the initial dialogue.
Though it's quite unintuitive in some cases. For example after the very first dream sequence; you have to ignore Shadowheart's prompt and instead talk to Lae'zel and Astarion. Because otherwise the game quite literally cuts off their entire dialogue if you talk to Shadowheart or Gale first, not to mention you lose approval with Shadowheart, Lae'zel and Astarion. Afterwards Gale's and Shadowheart's dialogues still fully play out, however you entirely lose dialogue choices for them.
Also in the celebration scene when everyone wants to initiate romance, you have to ignore the prompt and talk with Lae'zel first if you wish to flirt with all companions at once. Otherwise Lae'zel will not even want to flirt with you.
I really dislike that the game does this secretly depending on who we first talk to, despite who has the prompt. Because I'd prefer to fully talk with all of them without having to stick to a certain order.
As
MelivySilverRoot also mentioned, it is very important to know the order in which you have to talk to companions otherwise the game takes away dialogue.
So to make Long Rests less illogical and contradictory to the story immersion;
- Why not make make all companions who wish to talk with us available, instead of only one per rest.
I have a couple of issues with this. Having a lot of conversations take place in one bulk makes the artificial mechanic more obtrusive and obvious, nor does concentrating talk make for fun gameplay. Anything that gives the feel of a "talk/quest starter hub" tends to kill fun for me.
Why lock *all* this content to the camp at all? That is such a obtusely artificial gameplay mechanic! Instead having it occur more spread out, both in time and locations, makes for more believable gameplay and avoids the need to lock the content behind frequent camp rests - which leads to the narrative dissonance that has plagued the game since start of EA.
I thought this was going to be beating a dead horse, and I would be surprised except Crimsomrider's post are usually well though out and very detailed.
I think this is a great suggestion regardless of thoughts on the related rest issues.
Why lock *all* this content to the camp at all?
Making the camp the centre of companion interactions makes perfect sense from purely narrative point of view: downtime when characters relax after a day of adventuring is a very natural place for place party interactions. It also integrates resting with other aspects of game, and Larian might be worried how their existing audience will react to a new system that is long rest. You also avoid a very awkward thing from BG2 where conversations would trigger at the most inopportune of places and moments.
There is also a production advantage, as with pre-set enviroment devs can craft cinematics for those interactions - try to make those trigger anywhere on the map and you don't have a propt nor "stage" to work with, not to mention having to deal with objects obstructing the camera and all the other stuff you get to see when you try to engage in conversation with roaming NPCs. Really, they are just doing the same thing as other modern cinematic heavy RPGs are doing.
Unfortunately, Long Rest in BG3 isn't quite like, lets say Normandy in Mass Effects, which acts as a hub from which player accesses locations and missions - and amount of visits to the camp in BG3 could vary between players greatly.
Edit. As we talk about QoL UI changes to enhance conversations: The yellow exclamation point over characters when they have special conversation are a hit or miss for me. Usually they are fine, but with a bright background (like in the Druid Grove) it happens for me to miss those - and then they pop into view once I initiate a move order, but then it's too late and they dissapear. I would appreciate something more visible. A stronger outline perhaps? A sound que? Perhaps a companion saying "can we chat for a moment?"
As we talk about QoL UI changes to enhance conversations: The yellow exclamation point over characters when they have special conversation are a hit or miss for me. Usually they are fine, but with a bright background (like in the Druid Grove) it happens for me to miss those - and then they pop into view once I initiate a move order, but then it's too late and they dissapear. I would appreciate something more visible. A stronger outline perhaps? A sound que? Perhaps a companion saying "can we chat for a moment?"
Agree!
I have a couple of issues with this. Having a lot of conversations take place in one bulk makes the artificial mechanic more obtrusive and obvious, nor does concentrating talk make for fun gameplay. Anything that gives the feel of a "talk/quest starter hub" tends to kill fun for me.
Why lock *all* this content to the camp at all? That is such a obtusely artificial gameplay mechanic! Instead having it occur more spread out, both in time and locations, makes for more believable gameplay and avoids the need to lock the content behind frequent camp rests - which leads to the narrative dissonance that has plagued the game since start of EA.
I agree with you and it was taken into consideration when I was writing this feedback. However no matter how the issue is approached, there will always be a downside because it's just how the resting mechanic is implemented currently. So all it comes down to is choosing the lesser evil;
- Having one interaction per rest to experience less of the story, but require to do significantly more consecutive rests to experience it fully and risk potentially missing out on it due to story progression.
- Having several interactions per rest to experience more of the story, but require significantly less rests to experience it and not risk potentially missing out on story content.
So no matter how it is approached, there will always be a downside and the only question is which is the lesser evil. I'd love for them to re-envision the resting mechanic so it feels properly cohesive and dynamic, but I do not know whether they intend to reinvent or not. So this is more of a feedback based on its current implementation, to make it less contradictory with itself in case they do leave it as it is.
Making the camp the centre of companion interactions makes perfect sense from purely narrative point of view: downtime when characters relax after a day of adventuring is a very natural place for place party interactions. It also integrates resting with other aspects of game, and Larian might be worried how their existing audience will react to a new system that is long rest. You also avoid a very awkward thing from BG2 where conversations would trigger at the most inopportune of places and moments.
There is also a production advantage, as with pre-set enviroment devs can craft cinematics for those interactions - try to make those trigger anywhere on the map and you don't have a propt nor "stage" to work with, not to mention having to deal with objects obstructing the camera and all the other stuff you get to see when you try to engage in conversation with roaming NPCs. Really, they are just doing the same thing as other modern cinematic heavy RPGs are doing.
Unfortunately, Long Rest in BG3 isn't quite like, lets say Normandy in Mass Effects, which acts as a hub from which player accesses locations and missions - and amount of visits to the camp in BG3 could vary between players greatly.
Edit. As we talk about QoL UI changes to enhance conversations: The yellow exclamation point over characters when they have special conversation are a hit or miss for me. Usually they are fine, but with a bright background (like in the Druid Grove) it happens for me to miss those - and then they pop into view once I initiate a move order, but then it's too late and they dissapear. I would appreciate something more visible. A stronger outline perhaps? A sound que? Perhaps a companion saying "can we chat for a moment?"
Well said, especially the part about the amount of visits that can vary between players. I unfortunately fell into the same hole as many others have, where I avoided the resting mechanic entirely due to story immersion and ended up never seeing the story behind it. As a new player at the time it was a terrible first experience that felt incredibly shallow because I missed so much.
And yes, the yellow prompts are easily missed in certain sunny parts of the map, but I assume they will visually improve is. At least with a black outline so it stands out more. Personally I'd love if companions would say something in the sense of "We need to talk at the camp/I'd like to speak with you in the camp". It'd be immersive. I thought their lines about being tired and needing rest were meant for exactly that, but evidently not.
So to make Long Rests less illogical and contradictory to the story immersion;
- Why not make make all companions who wish to talk with us available, instead of only one per rest.
I have a couple of issues with this. Having a lot of conversations take place in one bulk makes the artificial mechanic more obtrusive and obvious, nor does concentrating talk make for fun gameplay. Anything that gives the feel of a "talk/quest starter hub" tends to kill fun for me.
Why lock *all* this content to the camp at all? That is such a obtusely artificial gameplay mechanic! Instead having it occur more spread out, both in time and locations, makes for more believable gameplay and avoids the need to lock the content behind frequent camp rests - which leads to the narrative dissonance that has plagued the game since start of EA.
No reason, you could just as easily gate it behind quests and map locations so many different ways. They just picked Dragon age camping system but they have no expirance in it.
Due to this inexperience all sorts or problems came knocking.
+1 While I hope we will get to experience, before actual end game, some time period where we won't have this sense of looming, imminent death hanging over us, in EA and first chapter... game *story* says we ought to hurry or else our skulls will split open, but game dialogue *mechanics* are designed towards players taking their sweet time.
I don't get the "only one unique companion dialogue per long rest* idea they implemented.
It is a problem. I missed at minimum of 40 percent of the content on my first play through. Now that the minimum long rests to experience all long rests went up. I feel like I miss out on 80 percent of content as I average at 8 long rests a play through.
I REALLY find it hard to long rest frequently on current playthroughs, and I am having to really force myself to do so in order to see if any new dialogue content has been added. It's VERY unfun.
I would prefer it if the story was divorced from the resting system entirely.
I tend to take 4-5 long rests per play-through and even though I've put in over 1000 hours in early access I've never heard a full companion backstory.
It wasn't until I started playing online with friends that I knew there were dream sequences other than Raphael.
If I'm role-playing my character, and not testing, my first long rest is after I rescue Haslin as that's when you find out the tadpole is different and you won't wake up as a Mind Flayer.
As long as the story is convincing the characters that resting is bad then advancing the story shouldn't be tied to resting, IMHO.
While I could be wrong (and I hope that I'm), I doubt they would change the strong linkage that exists between the story and long rests.
The dialogue often implies that they are about to sleep for the night or that they just woke up. So, in order to not have those cutscenes tied to the long rests, the dialogues would need to be changed as well.
In addition to trowing away potentially weeks/months of work, changing dialogues means redoing a bunch of VA and animation. Which takes time and money, and the game is supposed to come out in 2023 (Larian Studios has confirmed this). I would also be surprised if they made such a big change without giving any hint (like with the reaction system revision).
The suggestions made by OP seem more doable when taking into account all of those things.
Not perfect, but given the situation, a good compromise.
Those suggestions were made 3 month ago. I hope they had to time to take that into consideration for the upcoming patch.
I would really like to see that "ludo-narrative dissonance" addressed 🤞
I REALLY find it hard to long rest frequently on current playthroughs, and I am having to really force myself to do so in order to see if any new dialogue content has been added. It's VERY unfun.
I agree
One really needs to spam long rests to check/unlock new cutscene OO
the rest \plot system is the main part of the story and Larian already tried to make it clear we should rest by giving us foodstuffs and extra camp scenes so if "Lae'zel" wants to have the talk she can actually say "i need to camp" like BG2 or even an icon like SWTOR... i think its a good idea either way
As long as the story is convincing the characters that resting is bad then advancing the story shouldn't be tied to resting, IMHO.
On the other hand tho, thime should pass naturaly ...
Yes, you may "not yet have all your hp and spellslots used" ...
But 24 hours is 24 hours ... no matter how much you "dont want to rest yet" ... i dont think we should be able to squeeze ten day march into single Long Rest ...
And therefore, it seems quite logical for story advancing to be tied into long rests, after all they are the only way to measure time we have. :-/
As long as the story is convincing the characters that resting is bad then advancing the story shouldn't be tied to resting, IMHO.
On the other hand tho, thime should pass naturaly ...
Yes, you may "not yet have all your hp and spellslots used" ...
But 24 hours is 24 hours ... no matter how much you "dont want to rest yet" ... i dont think we should be able to squeeze ten day march into single Long Rest ...
And therefore, it seems quite logical for story advancing to be tied into long rests, after all they are the only way to measure time we have. :-/
That's a great point.
I suppose I would use real time as an abstraction of game time.
If I played for 16 hours of real time then I would be forced to have my party rest, however 16 hours of playing the game gets me pretty far into the story.
You could also compare it with live sessions of D&D.
When we play D&D an adventuring day is 10-12 encounters with at most 2 short rests.
Either way frequent long rests don't make sense and that's without the belief that your character could at any point turn into a Mind Flayer.
/shrug ...
Whatever suits i gues.
Personaly i satisfy with "covenient" sunset every and any time i want to.
Well said, especially the part about the amount of visits that can vary between players. I unfortunately fell into the same hole as many others have, where I avoided the resting mechanic entirely due to story immersion and ended up never seeing the story behind it. As a new player at the time it was a terrible first experience that felt incredibly shallow because I missed so much.
I agree with every single line you wrote from the start of the topic.
I don't really see any dissonance there. After resting a few nights, you trigger the night scene where everyone at the camp is suffering. You then just wake up the next day like nothing happened. At this point anyone (players and characters alike) should reach the logical conclusion that the transformation wont happen for an unknown reason considering you know how fast a transformation happen after the symptoms.
I don't really think that's a logical conclusion though. We even hear the characters say that they think it was just a bad meal or setting like that. I certainly never thought that it was the change being stopped, and clearly in-game none of our companions think so either.
I don't really see any dissonance there. After resting a few nights, you trigger the night scene where everyone at the camp is suffering. You then just wake up the next day like nothing happened. At this point anyone (players and characters alike) should reach the logical conclusion that the transformation wont happen for an unknown reason considering you know how fast a transformation happen after the symptoms.
Even if players trust that sentiment/belief (and not everyone will), there's still the issue of having to long rests an abnormal/illogical amount of time to unlock all scenes that trigger at camp (tadpoles, Raphael, and all companions scenes). That and the fact that having some companions in the party prevents certain scenes with other companions from happening. Which prevents further scenes from happening.
For instance, if SH is in the group, Astarion won't talk about his nightmare and the fact that Cazador inscribed a "poem" into his back. Without that scene, the "scar scene", where Astarion ask the player to look at the scars will never trigger.
Hopefully, this is just an issue because this is EA, because this doesn't feel like a properly thought-out/executed mechanic.
Plus, as I said before, I'm not a fan of hiding content for the sake of "replay value". It feels awkward and prevents certain types of RPing.
I looove the game...but this part is...not good, in my humble opinion.
I don't really see any dissonance there. After resting a few nights, you trigger the night scene where everyone at the camp is suffering. You then just wake up the next day like nothing happened. At this point anyone (players and characters alike) should reach the logical conclusion that the transformation wont happen for an unknown reason considering you know how fast a transformation happen after the symptoms.
A couple issues here:
Your phrase "after resting a few nights" can be very late in Act 1. Until you get that cutscene, it's reasonable to assume that there are some consequences for resting. As it is easily possible to get to the Underdark+ with only a few long rests, some players might play through the majority of EA, rushing through and resting infrequently, before they realize this. They'd miss a huge amount of content.
Camp cutscenes can get overwritten by newer ones. In my first playthrough, my first rest was after reaching Nettie, and thus my first long rest cutscene was with Raphael. And afterwards, I never encountered the "feeling sick" camp cutscene. This phenomenon may or may not have been updated since.
My solution(s): the game should essentially force you to rest before reaching the Grove, to ensure players get that "feeling sick" camp cutscene early. E.g.,:
- After rescuing Lae'zel, or otherwise getting similarly close to the Grove, the game could give you a cutscene where you have to avoid an overwhemingly huge goblin patrol and thus the party finds a secluded camp to hunker down for the night.
- Or, BG3 could give characters levels of exhaustions, along with companions voicing their feelings of sickness, strongly encouraging players to rest. The most dedicated players could try to push through, but at least there would be a game-given sign that it's okay to rest.
Right now, i have played approx. 600h in the EA with several different classes (but never went into the underdark or freed Halsin, I always restart before going to the Goblin encampment, as I do not want to spoiler myself too much before Full Release).
Normally I never use the Tadpole powers and usually kill Lae'zel on the ship to get her armor, as for me the character is not interesting, so I also usually do not use the Tadpole to communicate with her when she is in the cage with the tieflings.
So I never triggered the "feeling sick" scene - except for my last playthrough. On my last playthrough, I deliberately used the tadpole powers, and only discovered then that the scene even existed.
At the beginning of playing EA I really disliked the story telling, as a lot of the story content seemed so disconnected, awkward and clumsy. I thought this is due to the game beeing in EA, before realising this is because I have to rest much more.
So after the first two runs, I deliberately worked out a plan when I had to rest and how often, so that I could see as logical and complete an order of the camp scenes - a.k.a. the story itself - as possible.
e.g.:
SH joins --> rest
Gale joins --> rest
Astarion joins --> rest
One comes to the Grove, picks up Wyll --> rest
You finish stuff in the Grove and go towards the Blighted Village --> rest (Raphael scene)
Discover boar --> rest (Astarian Vampire reveal scence)
Go to owlbear cave / Selune shrine --> rest (SH Shar reveal)
etc. etc.
So even before I get to the blighted village, with Gale, SH, Astarion in the group, I have to rest 7 times. 7 times! If I DON'T do it this way, then later scenes and/or comments from companions MOST OF THE TIME / ALWAYS don't make sense because previous scenes have been skipped.
IMO this is definitely BG3's biggest problem at the moment.
So as for e.g. the "feeling sick" scene --> maybe always trigger it on your second rest? As I also feel the dialogue the next day dampens the feeling of urgency a little.
Huh, that's a lot of people. Hopefully they do make it better and intuitive, in fact it would be really easy to do. But we'll see I suppose.
I wonder if there's some script I could take a quick peek into and see about increasing the number of scenes available or even the number of prompting dialogues.
So, I might have changed my opinion a bit during recent playthrough - not whole 180d., but closer to 90d.. I don't think it's great, but it's not as big of a problem then I thought it was, or it used to be (for couple patches now I have been mostly skipping dialogue, so it is difficult for me to gauge how has the writing developed.
Nettie makes it clear that our tadpole is not changing us into mindflayer. Helsin states that attempt to remove tadpole could trigger the change, and we need to proceed carefully and understand the magic behind before doing anything. As such, at the very least, I think the game makes it clear to the player, that they can take all the time they want. Does it make it reasonable to playercharacter to chill out? I don't think so, but I think there is more to support this behaviour then I originally thought/was the are launch.
So, I might have changed my opinion a bit during recent playthrough - not whole 180d., but closer to 90d.. I don't think it's great, but it's not as big of a problem then I thought it was, or it used to be (for couple patches now I have been mostly skipping dialogue, so it is difficult for me to gauge how has the writing developed.
Nettie makes it clear that our tadpole is not changing us into mindflayer. Helsin states that attempt to remove tadpole could trigger the change, and we need to proceed carefully and understand the magic behind before doing anything. As such, at the very least, I think the game makes it clear to the player, that they can take all the time they want. Does it make it reasonable to playercharacter to chill out? I don't think so, but I think there is more to support this behaviour then I originally thought/was the are launch.
I'm just going to quote myself :
Even if players trust that sentiment/belief (and not everyone will), there's still the issue of having to long rests an abnormal/illogical amount of time to unlock all scenes that trigger at camp (tadpoles, Raphael, and all companions scenes). That and the fact that having some companions in the party prevents certain scenes with other companions from happening. Which prevents further scenes from happening. [snip]
So again, even if we accept that as enough, even when trying to do all quests/side-quests, the amount of time one needs to long rest to unlock all the different cutscenes is disproportionate.
Plus, there's still the issue of missing content if we long rests "too late" (or not at the "main" camp).
I ran into this problem and I have never tried to avoid long rests. Just trying to do long rests when I'm out of juice or when companions complain about it.
Doing that isn't enough and leads to missing dialogues.
Not good, in my opinion.
On my patch 8 playthrough I did finally get Gale’s weave scene for the first time! It was after talking with Nettie, too. So, it looks like they are making some improvements and fixing some bugs with these scenes.😊
On my patch 8 playthrough I did finally get Gale’s weave scene for the first time! It was after talking with Nettie, too. So, it looks like they are making some improvements and fixing some bugs with these scenes.😊
I hope so, but for now, to give an example :
- I talked Zorru, which triggers one scene with Astarion and one scene with Lae'zel.
- After that, I used Speak with the Dead on Sazza (only a couple of meters from there), which triggers one scene with SH.
- Then, I used long rest. Unfortunately, I only had access to the one scene with SH.
I think all those scenes should be made available at that point.
Oh I am fully aware that in terms of story there is no danger from the tadpole in relation to time passage by resting, even when I wrote this feedback. The Dreamer pretty much solves that issue straight away the night we get sick. However even if you toss the story straight out the window, there is still the issue of having to extensively rest and rest and rest in order to not miss out on dialogue, in a very tight timeframe. Because there are scenes that are permanently gone if you do not do them prior to story advancements.
Which is why I included this very tiny, but important image in my original post;
That little beauty shows that I in total rested for about 37 days throughout my entire playthrough. About 15-20 however were for the pre-Grove and in-Grove content. The rest were for everything else that is outside the Grove. And not a single rest was necessary to me, I purely did it for the story. An average player can do the entire pre-Grove and in-Grove content without resting once and at maximum twice.
I personally can do a full playthrough without taking a single rest and this is pretty much how. Pure accumulation, enough to equip an entire army, let alone a group of 6 people. So I wouldn't even rest if the story was not tied behind it.
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/RH4JT64.jpg)
Unfortunately however in order to not miss out on dialogue, I have to rest about 7 times minimum before I even get to the Grove gates, as Shadowheart and Lae'zel have unique scenes which are permanently missed after getting to the Grove or meeting Zorru. So I just stand there like a dummy spamming long rests to drain all the pre-Grove scenes before actually heading inside the Grove. And then I have to rest consecutively back to back inside the Grove to not miss out on other scenes for Wyll, Astarion and such.
So even if we ignore the story, it still changes nothing. I have to rest 15-20 times before I head out of the Grove to ensure I experience the full dialogue within the camp. It could be severely reduced however or made more intuitive. Even a simple notification telling me someone wants to talk would help.
I think all those scenes should be made available at that point.
+1
An average player can do the entire pre-Grove and in-Grove content without resting once and at maximum twice.
That seems off to me. It usually takes me three rests to do all of that. Though I may not be representative of an average player, I don’t think you are either, Crimsonrider.
I can’t even fathom how you could finish ea with no resting. Counting level ups, Gale can cast 10 ish spells, Shadowheart 8 and Wyll 6. That’s about the amount of spells I need to clear just the goblin camp!
In any case, it seems likely to me that the average player rests more than the average forum member. While I would like an unmissable cutscene telling the player in no uncertain terms to relax about the tadpole, I’m not too bothered by the other missable stuff.
Finally, as has been pointed out, companions will queue up stuff to say even if they’re not sporting an exclamation point. I don’t think you need to chain rests to unlock dialogue, just talk to them over and over again when you do end the day. (If you ever do, Crimsonrider, you insomniac…)
In any case, it seems likely to me that the average player rests more than the average forum member.
Again, in my case, I don't try to actively avoid resting (it also seems odd to me). I do it when it makes sense (low on spell slots/companions complaining).
But I'm still confronted to this issue.
Finally, as has been pointed out, companions will queue up stuff to say even if they’re not sporting an exclamation point.
Doesn't work with the example I have given above.
And I don't like missing stuff that, to me, at least, shouldn't be missable.
Pretty easy really, I play physical classes primarily. Drow Ranger, Lae'zel, Shadowheart and the 4th is usually Wyll or Astarion. Depends on my mood. I know Wyll is a Warlock, however I go full Eldritch Blast and he also has an Imp. So he is pretty much turned into a cantrip Eldritch boy, therefore I require no rest as I do not depend on spells whatsoever, not even to heal myself up.
Also every single member in my party has at least 19 AC minimum, so I rarely get hit. My Ranger usually gets to 21 and can get up to 23AC if necessary, but I leave her at 21.
And I posted the image of my treasure trove above for this exact question to showcase how it's possible. I loot absolutely everything I come across and stash it. As someone hilariously pointed out which I didn't even notice myself, I apparently
carry 72 healing potions on me at all times. And that's just a part of the total number. I have so much more stashed away at camp which I never get to even use. So it's really not hard at all playing without resting
Also nice try calling me an insomniac but I got you there, I play as a Drow and they do not sleep! So I am at peak min-maxing performance both gameplay and lore wise
In any case, it seems likely to me that the average player rests more than the average forum member.
Again, in my case, I don't try to actively avoid resting (it also seems odd to me). I do it when it makes sense (low on spell slots/companions complaining).
But I'm still confronted to this issue.
That’s fair. Out of curiosity, how often do you usually rest in the early game?
Doesn't work with the example I have given above.
And I don't like missing stuff that, to me, at least, shouldn't be missable.
If I understand the example, no amount of resting can fix the issue. You’d have to try every party combination every rest to make sure you’re not locked out of any cutscenes.
I get disliking missed story beats if you’re here for the story; I’m afraid Larian don’t seem to share your pain, on the contrary. I don’t think there’s any way they’ll let players experience the entire story in a single run.
Edit:
And I posted the image of my treasure trove above for this exact question to showcase how it's possible.
Wait that was for real? I thought you just showed a random large pile of stuff for illustrative purposes.
That’s fair. Out of curiosity, how often do you usually rest in the early game?
I'll try to list it here, because I'm not sure 😅 Keep in mind I'm only doing this from memory :
- I recruit SH, Astarion and Gale, then rest to trigger the "Where are you" dream.
- I explore the Dark Crypt, then rest (outside of the crypt!). This triggers Astarion going on a hunt.
- I recruit Laez'el, go to the grove, save Aradin & co, talk to Zevlor, go check the npcs above the gate, the vendor Arron, Rolan & co and Zorru, then rest (to trigger Lae'zel and Astarion cutscene).
- I go check on Sazza, usually I don't intervene and cast Speak with the Dead on her, I go explore the hidden tunnel to save the druid, go talk to Mattis, Volo, Alfira. Depending on whether I need it or not, I rest. This triggers a scene with SH.
- I go save the kid from the harpies then I go to Kagha, then go to Nettie. I go to the bloodless boar. Then rest. This triggers Raphael scene and Astarion bite scene.
- I go to the dying true Soul Edwin. I let Astarion or Gale talk and trigger the tadpole power (make more sense to me RP-wise). Then rest. This triggers the first visual tadpole dream.
- I go to the blighted village to trigger the power one last time (by Astarion or Gale) one way or another. Then I go rest (SH needs to die because I want to trigger Astarion's scene with the nightmare about Cazador).
- I go to "shop for pets' by visiting the Scratch and the owlbear nest. I trigger a first time SH's revelation about being a Sharrian. I go help the gnome at the windmill and go check the scene that triggers SH's weird magical power affecting her. I might rest (I don't need it if I don't take Wyll with me).
- I go explore the southern part of the map and go to Gur then Ethel. I don't confront Ethel yet (not strong enough : level 3 and potentially low on spell slots). I do rest after that.
- I investigate the Shadow Druids situation at the bog. Then rest.
- I finish this quest at the grove. Then rest.
- I go deal with Ethel (since I've reached level 4 at that point and I'm well rested), then rest. At that point, I've already given Gale an artefact and this is usually when the Weave scene triggers.
- I go explore the Blighted village a bit more (going to collect the orb and going in the "cellar"), which can required one or two rests.
- Then I finally approach the Goblin Camp. I deal with the goblins at the gate then rest. This usually triggers Gale's "Loss scene" (doesn't trigger indoor).
- I go across the bridge, have fun at the Goblin party, save the owlbear cub, enter the Shattered Sanctum. Then rest.
-...
I mean, that's already about 15 long rests and I haven't explore the Shattered Sanctum yet.
The owlbear cub also postpones other scenes, like Astarion's "Scar scene" which usually trigger not long after Tiefling party (in my case, at least) and only if I spam Long Rests before the party to trigger all cutscenes related to the cub (there are a few of them).
I usually explore the northern part of the map to trigger this scene and the scene where Gale talk a bit more about him and Mystra (I don't think this one triggers if not at the "main" camp, could be wrong).
This type of itinerary is odd but it's the only way that I can triggers a maximum of scene with all companions (including Wyll when I recruit him) and still make sense of it...in my own head. But this does require doing a lot of meta, and a good portion of this could be avoided with the suggestions made by OP.
It's so easy to miss key scenes that help you connect with companions (all of them). Some people don't know about the "Stargazing scene" with Astarion or the "Weave scene" and "Loss scene" with Gale.
I get disliking missed story beats if you’re here for the story; I’m afraid Larian don’t seem to share your pain, on the contrary. I don’t think there’s any way they’ll let players experience the entire story in a single run.
Yes, this saddens me deeply 😔 I am here for the story. I am here for the companions (mainly Gale, SH and Astarion) and the story.
So yes, to me, this is a key element that's not working...but could.
Wait that was for real? I thought you just showed a random large pile of stuff for illustrative purposes.
Of course it was real, I spent like 40 minutes putting all that stuff down
I did it as a joke for another thread in which people were discussing the quantity of resources available to the player in the game, but yes it is pretty much real and that's like only 1/3rd of my actual accumulation. There were far too many things in my stash to put everything down and manage to get a good screenshot. I usually end my playthroughs with 50k-75k gold, all the unique items and so many potions I may as well become a travelling merchant. So that is why I have no need for rests, the game is incredibly genereous with resources, especially for someone like me who loves exploring and looting every single thing.
I am honestly shocked, how? In my last playthrough I managed to be wealthier than I had gotten before but still never reached anywhere close to that level. There was a lot of high level stuff I had to scrale and scrounge to afford. What could I be doing wrong?
I'm surprised to see people surprised, I thought this was normal lol
Basically what I do is this;
- I always go 14 Charisma for my main character regardless of what class I decide to play (Thief/Ranger/Barbarian) because I love the story and want to be successful in revealing it.
- Max out attitude with Dammon and Arron in the Grove by giving them enough items for free. About 150-200g is enough to max out attitude with them.
- To Dammon I sell exclusively all generic weapons and armor that I loot
- To Arron I sell exclusively misc items (books, junk items, bags, scrolls that Gale already learned and so on)
- I loot everything that is not bolted down and spread item weight across all 4 of my members due to encumbrance (Lae'zel is usually the one carrying all the weapons and armor, Shadowheart books, I usually carry all the junk) and my 4th whatever remains
- Once all 4 of us hit the weight limit, I go back to the Grove to sell.
- Food, alcohol and unique items are immediately sent to stash from the container window
- Potions I carry on me, but I never get to use them nor want to use them, so I stash most away
So 50k-75k gold and all the stuff I displayed is really just playing the game normally, not even me trying to min-max it. If I wanted to min-max it I could go 100k minimum at least, by going full Charisma with Wyll and then painstakingly giving him all the items so he can sell them, but that is so boring and unintuitive to me.
And you could go infinitely further even;
- For Shadowheart go Dexterity and give her the unique ring for Sleight Of Hand, so she ends up having about +7/+9 Sleight Of Hand, along with her Guidance which gives +1/+4. She is an Urchin and gets inspired by doing thievery. She did nab the Weapon after all.
- Money is easier to steal than items. But if the vendor has too much money, you won't be able to steal it. So what you do is manipulate their gold weight.
- The idea is to keep their gold around 1000-1500. Any higher and it will be hard to steal it back. So if you buy stuff, you should then sell stuff to lower their gold and steal what remains
- By doing so you gain everything you want and lose nothing in return. And you almost never ever fail the rolls because Shadowheart is a natural at it.
So there are so many ways to earn money and be so filthly rich that by the time you get to Baldur's Gate, you may as well buy the whole city as you'll be richer than the entire continent
But as I said I don't min-max really and I don't exploit the game as it's just not fun. So basically I just enjoy the game and love exploring/looting so that 50k-75k is nothing really. I consider it normal and usually end the game with around 72k average.
Oh wow, that all...sounds kinda tedious. I just sell stuff to whichever merchant is the easiest to get to once I hit the weight limit on one or two characters. I don't mess with the attitude system or anything like that.
It is a little funny, that if you go gung ho and really prioritize not resting and finding a healer (like you're being hounded to by you entire party) you can completely miss seeing the dream figure you are forced to create at the beginning of every new game.
It is a little funny, that if you go gung ho and really prioritize not resting and finding a healer (like you're being hounded to by you entire party) you can completely miss seeing the dream figure you are forced to create at the beginning of every new game.
In all my playthroughs I had the dream encounter only once, and I had to learn how to trigger it. I wish they would come up with something sublet then creating your crush in the creator.
That’s fair. Out of curiosity, how often do you usually rest in the early game?
I'll try to list it here, because I'm not sure 😅 Keep in mind I'm only doing this from memory :
- I recruit SH, Astarion and Gale, then rest to trigger the "Where are you" dream.
- I explore the Dark Crypt, then rest (outside of the crypt!). This triggers Astarion going on a hunt.
- I recruit Laez'el, go to the grove, save Aradin & co, talk to Zevlor, go check the npcs above the gate, the vendor Arron, Rolan & co and Zorru, then rest (to trigger Lae'zel and Astarion cutscene).
- I go check on Sazza, usually I don't intervene and cast Speak with the Dead on her, I go explore the hidden tunnel to save the druid, go talk to Mattis, Volo, Alfira. Depending on whether I need it or not, I rest. This triggers a scene with SH.
- I go save the kid from the harpies then I go to Kagha, then go to Nettie. I go to the bloodless boar. Then rest. This triggers Raphael scene and Astarion bite scene.
- I go to the dying true Soul Edwin. I let Astarion or Gale talk and trigger the tadpole power (make more sense to me RP-wise). Then rest. This triggers the first visual tadpole dream.
- I go to the blighted village to trigger the power one last time (by Astarion or Gale) one way or another. Then I go rest (SH needs to die because I want to trigger Astarion's scene with the nightmare about Cazador).
- I go to "shop for pets' by visiting the Scratch and the owlbear nest. I trigger a first time SH's revelation about being a Sharrian. I go help the gnome at the windmill and go check the scene that triggers SH's weird magical power affecting her. I might rest (I don't need it if I don't take Wyll with me).
- I go explore the southern part of the map and go to Gur then Ethel. I don't confront Ethel yet (not strong enough : level 3 and potentially low on spell slots). I do rest after that.
- I investigate the Shadow Druids situation at the bog. Then rest.
- I finish this quest at the grove. Then rest.
- I go deal with Ethel (since I've reached level 4 at that point and I'm well rested), then rest. At that point, I've already given Gale an artefact and this is usually when the Weave scene triggers.
- I go explore the Blighted village a bit more (going to collect the orb and going in the "cellar"), which can required one or two rests.
- Then I finally approach the Goblin Camp. I deal with the goblins at the gate then rest. This usually triggers Gale's "Loss scene" (doesn't trigger indoor).
- I go across the bridge, have fun at the Goblin party, save the owlbear cub, enter the Shattered Sanctum. Then rest.
-...
I mean, that's already about 15 long rests and I haven't explore the Shattered Sanctum yet.
The owlbear cub also postpones other scenes, like Astarion's "Scar scene" which usually trigger not long after Tiefling party (in my case, at least) and only if I spam Long Rests before the party to trigger all cutscenes related to the cub (there are a few of them).
I usually explore the northern part of the map to trigger this scene and the scene where Gale talk a bit more about him and Mystra (I don't think this one triggers if not at the "main" camp, could be wrong).
This type of itinerary is odd but it's the only way that I can triggers a maximum of scene with all companions (including Wyll when I recruit him) and still make sense of it...in my own head. But this does require doing a lot of meta, and a good portion of this could be avoided with the suggestions made by OP.
Thanks for going through the detail of your itinerary. You’ve mentioned two reasons for your resting schedule: you want to experience the full story and you rest when it feels natural. I take it this itinerary satisfies both requirements for you. Is that correct?
I’m of two mind on the camp cutscenes. On one hand, I’ve felt the urge to cut through the BS in order to see what a game has to offer (eg: “go find seven blue acorns for a sidequest†becomes “go to the wiki to find the quickest way to progress the gameâ€). I could skip the sidequest, but at the cost of feeling like I’m missing out, which sucks.
On the other hand, I’ve tremendous respect for a game like Dwarf Fortress where the sheer size and complexity of the world means players cannot experience (or even understand) it all. Imagine if every run of BG3 was significantly different from the last, if the story felt brand new each time. That would be amazing to me, a powerful illusion that the world is real, inhabited by well-rounded people with their own things going on.
Whether or not it succeeds, I believe that BG3 is striving to accomplish something like this. The current cut-scene system helps in that endeavor: relationships and stories shift slightly early on due to factors the player doesn’t know about; I assume the early differences snowball into massive divergences down the line, seeing how many different ways the first fews days of the story can play out.
In conclusion, though I understand the urge to experience it all, I see value in a story-driven game where the story remixes itself. The key is for players to feel like they’re reading a new book every time, not the same book with some pages torn out.
Well, let's just agree that our views differ on this 😶 Happens 😅
By the way the new exclamation mark design sucks ass....
It's not perfect but I do prefer it over the barely visible yellow exclamation mark.
Well, let's just agree that our views differ on this 😶 Happens 😅
I agree ^^
One last hypothetical question, if you don’t mind. Assuming you’re resting basically the same way each run in order to see all the content you know about, it’s possible that you’re unknowingly missing out on story beats. Hence the question: if, after 1000 hours of game time, you found a new cutscene that required very specific circumstances to trigger, would you feel cheated or rewarded?
By the way the new exclamation mark design sucks ass....
Eh, it's not beautiful at the moment, but I see it now, which is something I struggled with the old one.
@Flooter
Missing on story beats to me is linked to this issue...but I feel like we are started a circular discussion so this will me my last answer within this exchange with you.
If it's something I missed because I didn't rest at the precise good moment (Zorru/Sazza triggers) or because I didn't spam Long rests (owlbear cub situation) : cheated.
If it's a new cutscenes discovered by exploring or talking to NPCs I had previously missed/ignored, and I could properly trigger the cutscene without feeling like I need to spam Long rests : rewarded (happened after recruiting Barcus Wroot the first time for example ^^)
I mean, you won't be able to convince me that the current system is not without its flaws. Wanting to get the most of a game is not an rare want. There are a lot of people who prefer playing this way : completionists and/or just people who want to learn about all the companions and the main story. Because, yes, some main story elements are locked behind this system. That's something I love so much with the Dragon Age serie. There was a lot to do. But I have never felt "cheated" by the game for missing things and every companion stories could be enjoyed on one playthrough without cheesing things so much.
I don't like the cheap ways to add replay-value by punishing those players. The existence of several races/classes/paths/quests and what the players do with them allow for a lot of replay value already.
@MelivySilverRoot Very clear, thank you.
For me, there are different levels of badness with respect to the scenes you miss by not spamming rest. I dislike missing scenes that add colour and character information, but that’s not so bad if it’s likely I’ll come across it in another playthrough. It’s worse when the trigger conditions are unlikely to ever be met by any player following a natural path through the game, as I think the stargazing scene still is. But the only unforgivable situations are ones where significant story elements or quests can be missed with no decent rationale.
The only example I’m aware of is interactions with Gale, where if he’s with you in the grove it’s incredibly easy to raise his approval too quickly and so miss his scenes, romance and, most importantly, fail to progress his companion quest. If Larian had fixed this and no other rest-related niggles it would have kept me going until the full release, but as it is I’m grumpy!
For me, there are different levels of badness with respect to the scenes you miss by not spamming rest. I dislike missing scenes that add colour and character information, but that’s not so bad if it’s likely I’ll come across it in another playthrough. It’s worse when the trigger conditions are unlikely to ever be met by any player following a natural path through the game, as I think the stargazing scene still is. But the only unforgivable situations are ones where significant story elements or quests can be missed with no decent rationale.
The only example I’m aware of is interactions with Gale, where if he’s with you in the grove it’s incredibly easy to raise his approval too quickly and so miss his scenes, romance and, most importantly, fail to progress his companion quest. If Larian had fixed this and no other rest-related niggles it would have kept me going until the full release, but as it is I’m grumpy!
Well put! I fully agree with those points as well!
The only example I’m aware of is interactions with Gale, where if he’s with you in the grove it’s incredibly easy to raise his approval too quickly and so miss his scenes, romance and, most importantly, fail to progress his companion quest. If Larian had fixed this and no other rest-related niggles it would have kept me going until the full release, but as it is I’m grumpy!
I stand corrected! Gale has suddenly decided to confide in me about his problem, which at least moves his quest on. Not quite sure what triggered it. I already had the sword he would be interested in a couple of rests ago. This may be the first rest since I also had the idol of Silvanus. I’ll play around and see if I can work it out.
Also, and this is something I have seen in previous versions I think, when I clicked on Gale to speak to him, my character said “First in my heart†which implies some sort of romance and there’s been no hint of that. I do think Gale has the highest approval of any companion, but this seems a bit forward.
EDIT: Just got as far as the post-goblin party, and Gale propositioned my character. Which was a bit out of nowhere given they’d hardly interacted, and I’m not interested in romancing him this playthrough. But at least it now seems possible to progress a Gale romance and his companion quest even if his approval soars in the early game. It’s a bit unfulfilling as you still seem to miss at least a couple of nice scenes (the weave one, and I think maybe at least one more though can’t recall exactly what chats you can get with him). But still this looks like an improvement, though I’m still not sure exactly what led to Gale suddenly deciding to talk to me.
Recently been playing around trying to get the dream (where you start showing symptoms and then wake up fine). Seems that it's tied to using your ithillid options in convos a few times. I've also had the most success triggering it after the Astarion vamp reveal (when he tries to feed on you) and after you meet the group of true souls looking for the owlbear.
Yes, definitely true. Only when using the Tadpole, you get that dream.
E.g. when playing Barbarian you can free Shadowheart without using the tadpole, and so you will not have the "Where are you?" voice when long resting after the nautiloid crash.
Yes, definitely true. Only when using the Tadpole, you get that dream.
E.g. when playing Barbarian you can free Shadowheart without using the tadpole, and so you will not have the "Where are you?" voice when long resting after the nautiloid crash.
I found that option so funny. Screw keys am I right?