Larian Studios
Sorry for the blunt title, I tried a more polite "Honest feedback: I don't like the way Larian defaults control of the whole party" but I ran out of characters half way through the sentence.

Aaaanyway, back to the topic.

This control based on the position of a single character with all companions defaulting on auto-follow is genuinely cumbersome when you compare it to pretty much any other RPG in the same subgenre: the old BG games, Torment, Icewind Dale, Temple of Elemental Evil, Pillars of Eternity, Pathfinder, etc., where you simply cliclck and drag to select multiple characters, keep them in a formation you can rotate dragging the cursor and you can quickly send each one of them in different direction with ONE click.


There are several problems with the Larian solution:

- it's slower to use properly when precision is required.
- it's less accurate.
- it's a mess that turns into a comedic skit with idiots running randomly anywhere in any situation where you need to give everyone QUICK instructions on where to position.
- that mess can be deadly when there are combat triggers and/or traps around.

I can't honestly think of a single excuse to defend this "innovative" system they introduced since DOS1 in comparison with the above-mentioned titles.

I have to ask my fellows forum dwelllers: is there ANYONE who actually likes the Larian system the most? And if that's the case can that good soul (may the gods have mercy on him) tell us WHY?



I would prefer a more traditional way of selecting characters. I had one situation where I jumped somewhere with my character and my companions went running off to meet me there on foot, immediately got into combat, and I had to reload. Dragging and selecting would be much better.
I kind of like it, but honestly its not that great when combat is about to start. Party members just don't stick close enough or are doing random shit because i can't control all 4 by selecting them all. Yes, i definitely want shadowheart ALL the way in the back where it takes her 2 turns to even get close enough to do anything. The Ai and its pathfinding is dreadful currently.
i'd prefer the classic system myself.
Didn't play BG3 myself, but I found controls in D:OS to be rather frustrating. More fiddly, and less precise then the old system. I see it mostly as the system being designed around controlling a single character, rather then the whole party - a theme that resonates throughout the D:OSs design.
I have to say that you are right, is one of the more frustrating things in the game.

I do understand the way larian controls movement, and it works great when you can individually manage single members without no one following, but i will love so much, and will help so much if in adition to the DOS movement we had a select all/drag/shift click, plus formations ...

Also ... if you are pathing automatically and see me jump, jump, dont walk around
If you see me stealth, stealth, dont make me click steall in every single character, summon, familiar, friend .... (Yo gave me the option to disconect a party member and make the others dont follow, thats enought if i want to stealth only one), but if they move in a group, they should stealth in a group.

Funny d&d scene

1 character: "lets go in stealth"
its two friends: "naaa, you stealth we go with you walking normaly while we sing"

PD: i have a document 3 pages of notes that i have to post after my 12 hours playing XD
I just would like characters, when out of combat, to automatically avoid spots that cause damage (fire/brine/acid...) and holes.

I also agree a simple system to select characters to move is needed instead of the obscure "drag portrait out of group". They could also stop the auto-follow when a character is not selected.
Originally Posted by Baraz
I just would like characters, when out of combat, to automatically avoid spots that cause damage (fire/brine/acid...) and holes.

I also agree a simple system to select characters to move is needed instead of the obscure "drag portrait out of group". They could also stop the auto-follow when a character is not selected.


Just a minor comment on this. I noticed that no group member will follow a sneaking character. This presents a (rather cumbersome) work-around: sneak everyone into position one-by-one...
The classic system is so much better. I have always found the DOS party movement to be very clunky.
Party Formations would go a long way to fixing the issues with the party's movement. but yeah, so many times they run through fire, or goo, or whatever is everywhere on the ground (but thats another different issue) or even just when a fight begins.
I absolutely agree with the OP. Everything he mentioned is just right.

Something as important as characters and party control can't be allowed to be this bad. My guess is that this is done so people who play with a pad can play casually without nothing to worry about but it's not a good way for anyone playing RPG on PC with a keyboard and mouse. The fact that you can't even select your whole party with the mouse dragging a square over them or select a party formation with your melee characters in front and the healers or ranged in the back is awful. This party movement triggers a lot of traps and puts your party in danger in some situations.

I would like to see any explanation by Larian that justifies this.
Originally Posted by Baraz
I just would like characters, when out of combat, to automatically avoid spots that cause damage (fire/brine/acid...) and holes.

This is my issue. The rest is workable if not ideal.

I agree with the OP.
If it cannot be changed, then at least fix the poor AI for the companions
I'm genuinely confused. Isn't the "control single character and have party follow" method how every 3d crpg has done things? That's how it was in NWN, NWN2, and Dragon Age Origins. This isn't some radical thing that Larian introduced with DOS1. It's a standard for 3d crpgs.
+1 to op. I'm having lots of fun but this must change.
Originally Posted by tangelo1023
I'm genuinely confused. Isn't the "control single character and have party follow" method how every 3d crpg has done things? That's how it was in NWN, NWN2, and Dragon Age Origins. This isn't some radical thing that Larian introduced with DOS1. It's a standard for 3d crpgs.

Well, it's quite interesting to me that you managed to name a bunch of games that did party control worse than the examples I mentioned.

Still, DOS 1, 2 and this BG3 are somehow managing to be the absolute worst of the entire list, which is almost impressive.

Honestly, I'd be rather impressed with most of what I'm seeing of this BG3 in most aspects, but this one is a Larian trademark I could GLADLY do without.
Especially because unlike other limitations (i.e. a four men party comes to mind) it's not even a trade-off with meaningful pros and cons. It's straight up worse than the alternative from whatever angle one may watch at it.









I mentioned those games because they are also 3d crpgs unlike the games that you have listed. This isn't anything innovative. With the pre-rendered 2d engines of the games that you have listed, having a "select all" party movement would be the default. With a 3d engine, a "select all" option would play just like it does now with the same AI pathfinding issues. Simultaneously controlling all 4 characters in a 3d game would still have the same issues that you're describing.

That's why I'm asking what you would offer as a possible solution to this. From what you're describing, the problem is with the AI. Not the movement system itself.
I agree, its so bad I have to assume they are still working on this, There is no option that I have found that gives me the leader commands to my companions like stay so far away, or search traps, or blast away. There is nothing.
I noticed something : my familiar avoids dangerous spots properly it seems.

So I am guessing companion pathing will be fixed soon.
( still remains making controlling party movement simple )
Yes the movement and control of the party is horrific. Want to sneak with one party member to scout, its difficult. Need to split the party for a moment, good luck. Formations, nope. In a tactical turn based combat game position is important. Scouting, setting up ambushes, etc. It also hurts when a fight is over and the other party members want to run across active fire, acid, and other hazards.
+1, my party took the easy way when i wanted them to go back, opening a door and exposing themselves to the enemy - starting a fight i didn't want. Also they sometimes run into fire etc. without me wanting it.
Agree, the effort it takes to set up an ambush is considerable. Party members wandering off and blundering into combat.

Stealth is also weird. If you start a fight with everyone in stealth, you have to manually activate them in the initiative sequence, otherwise they are skipped by default. That's clumsy. Most people are going to want to get the drop on their foes to start a fight if possible. The game makes that very awkward.
Originally Posted by RumRunner151
Originally Posted by Baraz
I just would like characters, when out of combat, to automatically avoid spots that cause damage (fire/brine/acid...) and holes.

This is my issue. The rest is workable if not ideal.



this! I had just finished a rough fight and a couple of my characters were low hp. I start moving on and the two walk into the fire and are downed. I then Help them up and they immediately take damage and drop again. repeat ad nauseum, until I let them die and have to rez them and put their bodies on safe ground. Can we at least get a few seconds to get out of the hazard after being helped up? in tabletop you could drag a party member out of danger and then heal.
+1
"The way Larian manages party movement is dreaful." It is.... I wonder why they havent changed this before.... I disliked this in divinity as well.
Originally Posted by Vynticator
Agree, the effort it takes to set up an ambush is considerable. Party members wandering off and blundering into combat.

Stealth is also weird. If you start a fight with everyone in stealth, you have to manually activate them in the initiative sequence, otherwise they are skipped by default. That's clumsy. Most people are going to want to get the drop on their foes to start a fight if possible. The game makes that very awkward.

Yeah, there's that too.
I can sort of guess why they did it from a co-op point of view, but it seems to work more often against you than in your favor.
Even in multiplayer though, all characters should be acting in initiative once a surprise round starts, even if they’re still stealthed. It’s weird that stealthed characters stay out of initiative and can basically do all kinds of weird things while their companions are stuck in a drawn-out six seconds
I agree with the arguments listed in the 1st post.

I requested the same thing in another topic.

So +1
Originally Posted by someoneinatree
Even in multiplayer though, all characters should be acting in initiative once a surprise round starts, even if they’re still stealthed. It’s weird that stealthed characters stay out of initiative and can basically do all kinds of weird things while their companions are stuck in a drawn-out six seconds


Especially considering that you can pretty much re-stealth every round right now if you are positioned correctly, completely breaking the initiative system...
Originally Posted by Pantoufle
I agree with the arguments listed in the 1st post.

I requested the same thing in another topic.

So +1

I probably missed it, but if you have additional arguments to throw on top of the pile feel free to copy-paste your old post here.

Originally Posted by tangelo1023
I'm genuinely confused. Isn't the "control single character and have party follow" method how every 3d crpg has done things? That's how it was in NWN, NWN2, and Dragon Age Origins.

I can't quite remember NWN2 control scheme,. But NWN and DA:O weren't really party games - NWN you controlled a single character and in DA it was the same - and I am pretty sure there was a more classical control style when going into tactical view. Either way, none of those games required anything more sophisticated - exploration was very basic and environment irrelevant.

D:OSs (and BG3 from what I have seen) isn't like that - and it requires a fine micromanagement of your party members. Default Larian system simply isn't sufficient for it. Its not that it doesn't allow for fine control, but it far more clumsy when played that way - and I found it far easier to commit errors (classics being stealthing someone and forgetting to decouple him from companions so they rush to him once unstealthed or leaving someone behind).
I've also opened a thread in regard to this http://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=680949#Post680949
I am not going to add much to the conversation, the above points and the initial comments make sense. There are better ways to manage your party's positions and movements out there that could be implemented.

I've found that not attaching party members together works best whenever there is the slightest hint of combat. But indeed having the 4 characters attached is cause for a lot of moments between immersion-breaking things up to rage-enducing TPK. The first time Gale died on me was because of some random move he'd made when attaching-detaching... Which is a shame given the work put into his death narratively. Same thing for poor old Vampire, blindly following me into water at low HP...

This would also come down as a side effect of current camera configurations, which might play a role in how we move around the game... Don't know.


Perhaps the pathfinding AI could be linked to each characters abilities - for example, if they are athletic then take the most direct route over difficult terrain, if they have low wisdom / perception then they blunder straight through the twisting vines etc.

+1
Sadly this is another example of Larian insisting on sticking with what they did in Divinity. It's awful but they won't change it because it is a carryover from divinity. The "chain" thing where you have to pull a portrait away from the others to separate them before you can move one person is so annoying. Then you have to put them back again. Why can't we just click and drag a box around the party to group them back together? Every other game lets you just click on the character and tell them where to go. Also not having formations is frustrating. There are a lot of great things in this game but by far the biggest drawback is that they just built on top of divinity systems good or bad.
I'm not really trying to shit on Larian. There's a lot of good in the "Original Sin DNA".
Some stuff is frankly even a net improvement over anything Baldur's Gate ever did, and I say this as someone who was almost obsessed with the franchise for 20 years.
Party movement is not one of these.
Originally Posted by Baraz
I just would like characters, when out of combat, to automatically avoid spots that cause damage (fire/brine/acid...) and holes.

I also agree a simple system to select characters to move is needed instead of the obscure "drag portrait out of group". They could also stop the auto-follow when a character is not selected.


Agreed. Unless I'm missing something, I am unable to see these environmental hot spots to even try avoiding them - and if I could, I would have to split the group into 4 and individually move each one along the desired path, a tedious an unnecessary annoyance. While someone might trip or stumble into a fire or pool of acid during a battle, once battle is finished, they would have enough common sense to walk around these danger zones and not dance through them.


Prolly already been said but anywho, I dislike the whole chain gang thing. we are not criminals!! We are okay some of us may or may not be, but we're not imprisoned the tadpool is.

Keep the whole ability to move characters on the lower left screen, first one is the leader, second is next, third is after that, fourth is the last person. There a simple formation.

Chain gang Moridains beard add a button or ability to right click on a portrait and an option to remove from group. Then when you want to readd them just right click, add to group option.

Formations are not really needed imo, but they will add more to the game then they will detract. You can keep it simple square, line, triangle, or diamond (cause you know there forever). Simple easy to use well maybe not the square. that may require something else like a formation screen to properly position. Though in truth any of them may.

I do like how smart the enemies are avoiding puddles for the most part, attacking my wizard first, trying to put my fighter/cleric to sleep round. It is far and above better then many or perhaps all other games out there. Now if we can only get my group to stop running into random vines, fires and other things. Some of that is on me but still, seriously Fang Elf would you stop!!
The more I think about this topic, the less any possible excuse I can find to justify the solution Larian is currently using stands on its own.

I was thinking about the VERY popular request to expand party size to five or six members (one I'm all in favor of, by the way) and I couldn't help but realize that if they do that, it becomes even more imperative to address how the party as a whole is managed by the player.

It's sort of baffling that the system used here makes controlling FOUR men out of combat more slow and cumbersome than controlling six of them in other games of this genre.

At the very least, even if Larian decides once again to ignore how overwhelmingly against their system the feedback seems to be in both of these areas (flashbacks of the armor system and the botched itemization in DOS 2 come to mind) they should at bare minimum add a quick hotkey that unchains/relinks all party members in one single key press.
I know that "Press Space to turn base" is more or less covering the same function, but not exactly in a practical and quick way.
Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by Pantoufle
I agree with the arguments listed in the 1st post.

I requested the same thing in another topic.

So +1

I probably missed it, but if you have additional arguments to throw on top of the pile feel free to quote your copy-paste your old post here.



Nothing more to say. You're post give more arguments and is clearer than mine.
I agree wholeheartedly. I played DOS2 and really disliked how they handled controlling your party. (or lack of control i should say)
BG3 seems to have the exact same issue, causing my party members to:
-damage/debuff/kill themselves on terrains like fire/acid etc.
-trigger cutscenes, and failing throws in said cutscenes because they don't have the proper stats for it
-trigger combat miles away from the rest of the party
-falling into holes
-separating from the party and getting stuck somewhere (which i often don't notice and have to lead that single party member back to the rest)

I suspect people who haven't played DOS2 will struggle A LOT especially with the "chaining party members together to control them all" mechanic. I also think a good idea would be bringing back selecting multiple characters by holding shift and clicking their portraits, much more handy. Also as many others said, I hope Larian improves pathfinding for npcs! Besides avoiding traps, my party seems to enjoy picking roundabout ways to get to a destination, which imo should not happen!
Fact is this is one of the few games where you use the left mouse button to move your character/s. In other games you use the right mouse button for that and with the left button you can easily select them by clicking or dragging. In my opinion this isn't a big issue to solve. At least i think it isn't.
Originally Posted by Albi
Fact is this is one of the few games where you use the left mouse button to move your character/s. In other games you use the right mouse button for that and with the left button you can easily select them by clicking or dragging. In my opinion this isn't a big issue to solve. At least i think it isn't.

well, as you point yourself, that's not exactly an insurmountable obstacle.
I agree. The DOS-system is kind of messy when it comes to controlling your party in real time mode.
+1
Originally Posted by vitfast
I agree. The DOS-system is kind of messy when it comes to controlling your party in real time mode.

It doesn't help that even their option to "switch to turn based at any any time" (beside being less than ideal when a couple of clicks should solve the issue with the traditional "RTS-like" controls) seems to take few full seconds before clicking in.
Which once again makes its use vaguely cumbersome.
fully agree, party movement is a pain...would prefer some option to select all and move them like that, drag mouse on screen to select all characters (the classic square) to move them or only select those characters I want by ctrl+click on their portrait.
also pathing is terrible, when following the main character, they should not stand in 'bad" stuff on the floor (like those entangle plants in the old ruins)

1 good thing I noticed is that when all 4 characters are linked and i go into stealth with 1, the rest of them stay put.
now if they could implement this when 1 char does a jump...that would be already better than running the long way around and getting into trouble somewheere else.
One other frustrating thing about this way of handling movement that I noticed yesterday; after combat ends all your charcters converge on the leader. And that can be very frustrating because downed characters still roll death saves after combat. So in the post battle confusion it's easy to suddenly realize that one of your party is dying and not have a character close enough to reach them. Which means spending a finite resource (gold or a revivify scroll) to bring them back.
It's totally a +1 for me.

I hate their system. Everyone is running everywhere in every surfaces...
It's a mess when you have to place your companions with the chain mecanics... You separate, then you group again... One, or two, or more characters... The leader is changing everytime,.......

Anyway everything was said in the topic.

Larian's way of doing this is bad.
It was in DoS and it definitely is in BG3.
I feel like when they were making D:OS, someone had this "really cool" idea for how to manage your party and never let it go.
Originally Posted by Wormerine
Originally Posted by tangelo1023
I'm genuinely confused. Isn't the "control single character and have party follow" method how every 3d crpg has done things? That's how it was in NWN, NWN2, and Dragon Age Origins.

I can't quite remember NWN2 control scheme,. But NWN and DA:O weren't really party games - NWN you controlled a single character and in DA it was the same - and I am pretty sure there was a more classical control style when going into tactical view. Either way, none of those games required anything more sophisticated - exploration was very basic and environment irrelevant.

D:OSs (and BG3 from what I have seen) isn't like that - and it requires a fine micromanagement of your party members. Default Larian system simply isn't sufficient for it. Its not that it doesn't allow for fine control, but it far more clumsy when played that way - and I found it far easier to commit errors (classics being stealthing someone and forgetting to decouple him from companions so they rush to him once unstealthed or leaving someone behind).


Ahh I am pretty sure there was a 4 party system in DA:O. I know that I would control all members of the party to get combos to work in difficult combats, Sure against none boss fights just let the AI control the rest of the party but in boss fights on higher difficulties I was ALWAYS taking control of the entire party in tactical mode. maybe that was just me.

That said i think other games have handled party movement better than BG3. I think the system works great in combat but is clunky when transitioning into combat and clunky out of combat. i have been able to fine tune my party's tactical positions during combat with relative ease with the combat movement mechanics but outside of combat the OP is spot on. And as has been mentioned above the transition into combat is terrible.
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
It's totally a +1 for me.

I hate their system. Everyone is running everywhere in every surfaces...
It's a mess when you have to place your companions with the chain mecanics... You separate, then you group again... One, or two, or more characters... The leader is changing everytime,.......

Anyway everything was said in the topic.

Larian's way of doing this is bad.
It was in DoS and it definitely is in BG3.


Takes forever to regroup, even the first time Sven showed the game, he had problems with it. grin
Originally Posted by Tuco
Sorry for the blunt title, I tried a more polite "Honest feedback: I don't like the way Larian defaults control of the whole party" but I ran out of characters half way through the sentence.

Aaaanyway, back to the topic.

This control based on the position of a single character with all companions defaulting on auto-follow is genuinely cumbersome when you compare it to pretty much any other RPG in the same subgenre: the old BG games, Torment, Icewind Dale, Temple of Elemental Evil, Pillars of Eternity, Pathfinder, etc., where you simply cliclck and drag to select multiple characters, keep them in a formation you can rotate dragging the cursor and you can quickly send each one of them in different direction with ONE click.


There are several problems with the Larian solution:

- it's slower to use properly when precision is required.
- it's less accurate.
- it's a mess that turns into a comedic skit with idiots running randomly anywhere in any situation where you need to give everyone QUICK instructions on where to position.
- that mess can be deadly when there are combat triggers and/or traps around.

I can't honestly think of a single excuse to defend this "innovative" system they introduced since DOS1 in comparison with the above-mentioned titles.

I have to ask my fellows forum dwelllers: is there ANYONE who actually likes the Larian system the most? And if that's the case can that good soul (may the gods have mercy on him) tell us WHY?





You've read my mind!
I can't understand why Larian hasn't add party formations. I hate the fact that my main character (who's a wizard) goes always goes head first in battle. I can't reposition my wizard behind the group to minimize casualtize. You can do it in the Original BG games, why can't we do it for BG3? It seems like a simple fix.
Originally Posted by Minsc1122
[quote=Maximuuus]
Takes forever to regroup, even the first time Sven showed the game, he had problems with it. grin

When you struggle to deal with your own design, THAT should be your tell that maybe your system is not as brillant as you thought it would be on paper.
+1

Yeah, it's annoying. Especially when you play a rogue.
+1 I was a forum noob and just posted my own thread about this but I'm in the same boat - leading my party everywhere with a squishy wizard??? and it totally sets you up for horrible fights when your party is constantly crammed into a straight line going into combat
Is it really necessary for the characters to stop in one place, when I click on any ability in exploration mode?

In combat I understand, but when I explore it is a bit strange.
I think, that it would be nice if we could just give the commands more dynamically.

Clicking on portrait and casting buff is also something, that is not working.
Originally Posted by Minsc1122
Is it really necessary for the characters to stop in one place, when I click on any ability in exploration mode?

In combat I understand, but when I explore it is a bit strange.
I think, that it would be nice if we could just give the commands more dynamically.

Clicking on portrait and casting buff is also something, that is not working.

Not exactly related to the topic at hand, but... Isn't like a general D&D rule that spell can't ever be casted in movement?
+1

This was also probably the most frustrating thing about DOS2.
Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by Minsc1122
Is it really necessary for the characters to stop in one place, when I click on any ability in exploration mode?

In combat I understand, but when I explore it is a bit strange.
I think, that it would be nice if we could just give the commands more dynamically.

Clicking on portrait and casting buff is also something, that is not working.

Not exactly related to the topic at hand, but... Isn't like a general D&D rule that spell can't ever be casted in movement?


In BG3 or DOS2 you have to stop doing anything else when you click spell icon, or when you click the jump icon.
Yup. Controls are clunky.
I wholeheartedly agree with this post. It is probably the most annoying thing about this game at this point AND it is baffling to me they bothered coding this elaborate and cumbersome dragging method instead of a simple follow toggle key. At the start I was actually thinking you can't select characters by clicking the portraits at the lower left area because it required such a fast click to not drag the portraits that I was not able to change characters from there. If you drag a portrait even a tiny bit it will not switch to that character. Also kinda weird that you cant target abilities through portraits on as far as I could tell, although I may have only tried on the portraits in the initiative queue.

What i've done outside peaceful areas like the Druid grove, is to simply have all my characters not following each other and simply have my hand on number keys for characters and literally give move orders individually. It's far from ideal but a little LESS cumbersome than having follow on.

I have not read the full thread so someone might have already suggested these simple fixes that I would do.

1. Follow toggle key that enables/disables the full party follow. Hold down that toggle key and press the key or keys you have single party members bound to (in my case number keys) to toggle follow for those only. Additionally holding down follow key and clicking on portraits should do the same thing.

2.Give us a classic drag select and click method with formations.

I'd prefer having both options, especially if they implement WASD movement which I'm surprised wasn't in yet.
Yeah it is really cumbersome, especially as one wrong click (exit sneaking) can turn all efforts to ashes. The results are pretty awful. As a slight workaround you can enter turn-based mode at any time to set-up and then initiate combat when everyone is in position. This is still time-consuming and clunky, though.
In addition to the "toggle follow key" and "drag select" suggestion, I think that a great benefit would be a formation key as alternative to the default blob that's far more susceptible to the pathfinding's whims.
Originally Posted by Gnopi
In addition to the "toggle follow key" and "drag select" suggestion, I think that a great benefit would be a formation key as alternative to the default blob that's far more susceptible to the pathfinding's whims.


So basically the very same BG2/PoE/Pathfinder system inspired by RTS that we all are asking for.
It already does all these things rather intuitively. Larian's system is a textbook case of a "solution" in search of a problem to solve that never existed.
+1
I agree, maybe making a party formation option or better pathing will help.
Party management is a mess in and of itself, try re-arranging the portraits. Yeah good luck, want to slot in #4 into #2? Not happening. Gotta disconnect the person from the party and THEN slot them into #2.

Clicking a party members portrait to select them? Gods. I tent to click on a party member and hit the 1 key to use potion for healing, half the time it doesnt select the person. I've had a couple instances where I had to double back and realize the character wasn't selected and its a bit annoying. Why clicking the portrait doesn't register as a selection more often than not is both clunky and annoying. F1-F4 options are nice to select, but they should be options not a requirement to have it be responsive.

I never understood why click drag selection didn't exist in DOS1 or DOS2, and that its absent in BG3 is even more confusing.
Originally Posted by blazerules
Party management is a mess in and of itself, try re-arranging the portraits. Yeah good luck, want to slot in #4 into #2? Not happening. Gotta disconnect the person from the party and THEN slot them into #2.

Clicking a party members portrait to select them? Gods. I tent to click on a party member and hit the 1 key to use potion for healing, half the time it doesnt select the person. I've had a couple instances where I had to double back and realize the character wasn't selected and its a bit annoying. Why clicking the portrait doesn't register as a selection more often than not is both clunky and annoying. F1-F4 options are nice to select, but they should be options not a requirement to have it be responsive.

I never understood why click drag selection didn't exist in DOS1 or DOS2, and that its absent in BG3 is even more confusing.
Barely related, but god if they didn't manage to make even the "initiative queue" look way more confusing than it should have any right to be.



A little bump just to say that I'm playing this EA build over and over and since I started this thread I also started paying attention to terrain conformation and so on to check if at any point anything suggests the "classic party control would be unfeasible for this game for technical reasons".
The answer so far is: not really, not at all.

The only parts of the game where the classic RTS control scheme would be a bit clumsy for the terrain available and it would be required more minute controls are the same where that same awkwardness applies to the Larian chain/unchain system.
I also noticed that even games SO FOCUSED ON A SINGLE CHARACTER CONTROL as the two (excellent) Shogun Shadow Tactics/Desperados 3 still manage group movement/selection closer to Baldur's Gate/Pathfinder than what Larian is doing.
Totally agree with the OP, I was going to feedback on this too. I do love the strategy of moving single characters but the default auto-run of a sub group is not working.

E.G I move a character to jump an obstacle - then the other start running around and trigger enemies!

Also when moving a party of four, if you need to jump make it so they then all follow suit and jump the same way. Currently you have to break up the group, then individually jump then rejoin them = very fiddly and tedious.

Thank you smile
Originally Posted by UnderworldHades
I kind of like it, but honestly its not that great when combat is about to start. Party members just don't stick close enough


it happens that you start combat and half of your group isnt joining the combat. they show up in the rotation but the game skips them.
you have to manually control them so they get close enough to join combat.
+1 Fully agree on that.

A thing nobody pointed out is what happens when you need to have the whole party jump. First one jumps, ok, second one jumps and first one goes nearby even if there is fire or vines; you move them away, have the third jump and first two come near, crossing again the vines. Going out from Zorru house in groove was a real pain, not to speak of the window of the burning house where you find the wife of the guy you saved in the inn.

Someone mentioned DAO, but i dont remember having problems moving the party there, or at least having that many problems.

+1 also mentioning that you cannot cast a spell to a party member using the icons; it's out of range ok tell me that, but having to mouseover everyone to cast an healing spell because the icon shows he's wounded is annoying, and in all similar games i played you can cast to the icon
Originally Posted by Agi
+1 Fully agree on that.

A thing nobody pointed out is what happens when you need to have the whole party jump. First one jumps, ok, second one jumps and first one goes nearby even if there is fire or vines; you move them away, have the third jump and first two come near, crossing again the vines. Going out from Zorru house in groove was a real pain, not to speak of the window of the burning house where you find the wife of the guy you saved in the inn.

Someone mentioned DAO, but i dont remember having problems moving the party there, or at least having that many problems.

As a bonus consideration: this system Larian uses makes managing a four-members party way more cumbersome than moving around a full party of six men in a game like Pathfinder: Kingmaker.

Imagine if Larian listened to the (VERY popular) request to increase party size to six without addressing these controls first. A request I'm all in favor of, I may add.
It would turn minute party control from just bad to an unmitigated disaster.

If people want a six-members party (as it seems, given that the discussion about it is the most popular thread on this subforum) addressing this issue is basically a pre-requirement.
I haven played Pathfinder but i think that the best way to move a party is to select who you want to move and others will stay where they are. If you select all everybody moves together with the AI pathing trying to avoid to have them step on fire, if you select just the sneaking rogue to give a peek behind the corner, others stay there, waiting for the rogue to position before moving to attack.

About six members party dunno, mixed blessing; would have been mandatory to have two fighters in the frontline with old DnD rules but now Rogues can hold the line easily, at least at low level, and even mages arent brittle as they were before
Originally Posted by Tuco
Sorry for the blunt title, I tried a more polite "Honest feedback: I don't like the way Larian defaults control of the whole party" but I ran out of characters half way through the sentence.

Aaaanyway, back to the topic.

This control based on the position of a single character with all companions defaulting on auto-follow is genuinely cumbersome when you compare it to pretty much any other RPG in the same subgenre: the old BG games, Torment, Icewind Dale, Temple of Elemental Evil, Pillars of Eternity, Pathfinder, etc., where you simply cliclck and drag to select multiple characters, keep them in a formation you can rotate dragging the cursor and you can quickly send each one of them in different direction with ONE click.


There are several problems with the Larian solution:

- it's slower to use properly when precision is required.
- it's less accurate.
- it's a mess that turns into a comedic skit with idiots running randomly anywhere in any situation where you need to give everyone QUICK instructions on where to position.
- that mess can be deadly when there are combat triggers and/or traps around.

I can't honestly think of a single excuse to defend this "innovative" system they introduced since DOS1 in comparison with the above-mentioned titles.

I have to ask my fellows forum dwelllers: is there ANYONE who actually likes the Larian system the most? And if that's the case can that good soul (may the gods have mercy on him) tell us WHY?





you are totally right, i played the pillars of eternity series and Pathfinder:kingmaker, and i am an alpha tester for wrath of the righteous, Larian should really make a function to select the characters, it is more manageable and precise.
Originally Posted by Athann

you are totally right, i played the pillars of eternity series and Pathfinder:kingmaker, and i am an alpha tester for wrath of the righteous, Larian should really make a function to select the characters, it is more manageable and precise.

Not to derail the topic, but is there some way to pay my way into WotR alpha currently, if I missed the original kickstarter?
Originally Posted by Tuco
Sorry for the blunt title, I tried a more polite "Honest feedback: I don't like the way Larian defaults control of the whole party" but I ran out of characters half way through the sentence.

Aaaanyway, back to the topic.

This control based on the position of a single character with all companions defaulting on auto-follow is genuinely cumbersome when you compare it to pretty much any other RPG in the same subgenre: the old BG games, Torment, Icewind Dale, Temple of Elemental Evil, Pillars of Eternity, Pathfinder, etc., where you simply cliclck and drag to select multiple characters, keep them in a formation you can rotate dragging the cursor and you can quickly send each one of them in different direction with ONE click.


There are several problems with the Larian solution:

- it's slower to use properly when precision is required.
- it's less accurate.
- it's a mess that turns into a comedic skit with idiots running randomly anywhere in any situation where you need to give everyone QUICK instructions on where to position.
- that mess can be deadly when there are combat triggers and/or traps around.

I can't honestly think of a single excuse to defend this "innovative" system they introduced since DOS1 in comparison with the above-mentioned titles.

I have to ask my fellows forum dwelllers: is there ANYONE who actually likes the Larian system the most? And if that's the case can that good soul (may the gods have mercy on him) tell us WHY?






Yes!!!!!
+1, i think changing movement system is must
Totally agree with the OP. One possible solution would be an option to deactivate AI (and thus movement) of party members, as in the original BG games. This could be easier than doing proper pathfinding and out-of-combat behaviour.
Originally Posted by Tuco

There are several problems with the Larian solution:

- it's slower to use properly when precision is required.
- it's less accurate.
- it's a mess that turns into a comedic skit with idiots running randomly anywhere in any situation where you need to give everyone QUICK instructions on where to position.
- that mess can be deadly when there are combat triggers and/or traps around.

+1
Not to pat myself in the back, but four full pages of thread in and this must be possibly the LEAST divisive topic on this board and the one suggestion where I think every single reply so far agrees with.
I posted the same summary of the issue on Steam as well and even there I have yet to see a single reply of someone disagreeing that these controls are bad and traditional RTS.like ones would be a significant improvement.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying this to compliment myself, but just to stress a thing to Larian: when even in a forum like this you can hardly find a single person willing to defend the system you are using, there must be something genuinely weak about it that NEEDS to be addressed.

In general, even about other popular topics, I wish devs would make us hear their opinions more frequently about the feedback they are receiving etc.
Right now it's hard to know if they have even acknowledged this as a problem at all, let alone if they have plans on acting to solve it.

This is also not the only post/thread on this topic. The party movement management is the absolute worst part about this otherwise enjoyable game for me. If it didn't take an age to "Quick" load I might be more forgiving, but when I spend ten minutes trying to position everyone just so, only to misclick and have someone who was grouped move in the wrong way and trigger a trap, or walk through a flaming gas pocket, or any number of other stupid things they do, it gets frustrating.
Was going to post something similar. I notice it a lot, when I use Shadowheart to cast Guidance. The part runs around like coked up toddlers, as I attempt to cast it on my chosen character. I’d much prefer BG1/2 where, when you select the active character, no party members move unless you select a spot on the world...and then they take position according to marching orders. The animation should be: select Shadowheart, cast Guidance, click on portrait of selected target party member, confirm, (Animation) Shadowheart moves within range and buffs said character.

Also need a drag and select party members and tab-click select party members. The whole chain/group thing is ok in DOS, but doesn’t work well in BG.
Quick compliment: this game is going to be amazing and kudos to Larian!

I find it really frustrating that when my party is “grouped/chained” and I move my selected character to jump up a hill, the rest of the party (and summons) don’t follow. Really need the friendly AI to be better on map navigation. If I wanted only my selected character to move through that path, I would have ungrouped/unchained them, right?
Originally Posted by Tuco
Sorry for the blunt title, I tried a more polite "Honest feedback: I don't like the way Larian defaults control of the whole party" but I ran out of characters half way through the sentence.

Aaaanyway, back to the topic.

This control based on the position of a single character with all companions defaulting on auto-follow is genuinely cumbersome when you compare it to pretty much any other RPG in the same subgenre: the old BG games, Torment, Icewind Dale, Temple of Elemental Evil, Pillars of Eternity, Pathfinder, etc., where you simply cliclck and drag to select multiple characters, keep them in a formation you can rotate dragging the cursor and you can quickly send each one of them in different direction with ONE click.


There are several problems with the Larian solution:

- it's slower to use properly when precision is required.
- it's less accurate.
- it's a mess that turns into a comedic skit with idiots running randomly anywhere in any situation where you need to give everyone QUICK instructions on where to position.
- that mess can be deadly when there are combat triggers and/or traps around.

I can't honestly think of a single excuse to defend this "innovative" system they introduced since DOS1 in comparison with the above-mentioned titles.

I have to ask my fellows forum dwelllers: is there ANYONE who actually likes the Larian system the most? And if that's the case can that good soul (may the gods have mercy on him) tell us WHY?






Couldn't agree more. The current way to control your group is horrific, and add the terrible pathing and the overly finicky way to attach/detatch and rearrange characters on top of that and you get a mess when trying to move your party around with any kind of precision.
Oh, and another thing that also adds to this is the fact that sometimes I have to click a character portrait two or three times before it actually gets selected. (and no, there is nothing wrong with my mouse)
100% agreement.
Playing this game feels like I'm fighting the controls the entire time. BG3 has really cool 3D environments, and the addition of jumping opens up all kinds of awesome exploration options ... but it suuucks trying to micromanage a party over even a small gap. Or to split them up to get everyone in position before a fight. Even just getting the weirdly restrictive camera to point at where you want to go/look is a pain.
Guys, CRPGs figured all these things out years ago; just use RTS controls and a WoW-style camera we can aim anywhere. Please; I want to like this game, but it's just aggravating to play.
Agree with OP. So many examples of games that do this well. Just follow their example on this one.

I think a lot of it works if you have multiplayer going... but its rough for single player. Companions shouldn't be a huge pain in the ass to manage.

also make companions actually do things in conversations more. Like Rogue pulls a knife and knocks you to the ground and your companions just stand idly by and watch? Glad to see they have my back...
Basically:

-yes it's idiotic that NPC's "follow" me through poison/acid/whatever when I (that character) did NOT walk in it in the first place.
-there should be a 'stay put' command, as even in stealth the NPCs, pets, whatever still follow and do so unwisely (as noted above).
While I completely agree that party movement controls in the DoS/BG3 systems are far inferior to that of BG2/PoE/Pathfinder, I suspect this is one area of the game we are least likely to see a change in, as programming party movement is such a basic building block for a game, at this point that would likely have to junk much of what has been done and start over from scratch.

That being said, this is fortunately one of the few systems I absolutely dislike. Most of the other game issues thus far can be resolved with tweaking or supportive systems - not wholesale tear down and rebuild.
+1

I don't have much to add, that hasn't been said.
Out of combat, and especially immediately after combat, don't walk in the things!

Selecting characters should definitely be handled better too.
Originally Posted by Anfindel
While I completely agree that party movement controls in the DoS/BG3 systems are far inferior to that of BG2/PoE/Pathfinder, I suspect this is one area of the game we are least likely to see a change in, as programming party movement is such a basic building block for a game, at this point that would likely have to junk much of what has been done and start over from scratch.

That being said, this is fortunately one of the few systems I absolutely dislike. Most of the other game issues thus far can be resolved with tweaking or supportive systems - not wholesale tear down and rebuild.


Admittedly i'm not a game developer. But surely it can't be such a monumental task to adjust the way you select and handle your party?
Originally Posted by Peranor

Admittedly i'm not a game developer. But surely it can't be such a monumental task to adjust the way you select and handle your party?

Yeah, I don't see it being a massive commitment either.
The building blocks for the control system we are asking for are already in place after all. Aside from permitting (and visualizing on the UI) multiple unit selection it would at most require some minor tweaking at the camera in some specific areas (and that's mostly because it's a required improvement in general, not even specific to RTS-styled controls).

+1,it will be good to have movement/party system like in real Baldurs Gate.
+1
The controls shouldn't make basic interaction with the game this frustrating. Why fix what wasn't broken?
I don't like that there's like a 0.5 second delay between clicking to move and the character actually moving. Compared to WL3 where movement is instant upon clicking, BG3 feels sluggish and imprecise, like the animation blending between standing and moving needs to be sped up.
+1

This is the topic of universal agreement.
Drag select is the future indeed...+1 but i guess it's their trade mark ?

Hopefully they can get pass that and actually do whats good for the player?

But it did get pass EA in DoS 2 so i doubt they gonna fix it here.. At best they could add drag select i reckon.

Somehow i get the feeling that they aren't into all this suggestion forum business... And all they care is about their metadata. hopefully i'm wrong...
The irony of the situation is that addressing this problem would not just improve the overall usability of the controls by a wide margin in general, but also go a LONG way to re-establish the feeling of "being a proper Baldur's Gate rather than DOS 3" that a lot of players are lamenting about.

In fact, a better point & click control scheme AND a six-men party for the single player, if combined, would probably address the overwhelming majority of the grievances about "feeling more DOS than anything".


Originally Posted by Tuco
Not to pat myself in the back, but four full pages of thread in and this must be possibly the LEAST divisive topic on this board and the one suggestion where I think every single reply so far agrees with.
I posted the same summary of the issue on Steam as well and even there I have yet to see a single reply of someone disagreeing that these controls are bad and traditional RTS.like ones would be a significant improvement.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying this to compliment myself, but just to stress a thing to Larian: when even in a forum like this you can hardly find a single person willing to defend the system you are using, there must be something genuinely weak about it that NEEDS to be addressed.


Not so fast, sunshine.

First off, I fully agree that it’s currently quite wonky, and even in DOS2 it was a bit cumbersome.

However, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the whole linking party members system in principle, it just needs some refinement. There’s certainly some advantages to a system where you can separate one or more characters and leave the rest moving as a group. Particularly in a game where you can send one character off to the other end of the map to do things separate from from the rest of the party. I imagine it’s pretty useful for multiplayer, so for instance 2 players can have 2 teams of 2 moving together, without having to constantly select 2 characters to move.

There’s certainly big issues with pathfinding, using stealth, and even the dragging to link and unlink characters (which really should have been improved 2 games ago), but the basic system isn’t bad at all. If they fix things like the pathfinding and the amount your lead character gets ahead, and add some shortcuts for linking and unlinking party members (eg shift-click to unlink and move) then it could be a better system than other games.

I’m not sure why some want to drag a selection box around characters they want to move in 3D game with so much height variation. It works well for infinity engine and similar games, but that doesn’t mean it would work well for this one.

Originally Posted by Dagless

However, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the whole linking party members system in principle, it just needs some refinement.

Well, congratulations, you just ruined a spotless record for the sake of it and managed to support TWO terrible design decisions in a row.
Hope you'll sleep well with this heinous crime on your conscience.
Originally Posted by Dagless
Originally Posted by Tuco
Not to pat myself in the back, but four full pages of thread in and this must be possibly the LEAST divisive topic on this board and the one suggestion where I think every single reply so far agrees with.
I posted the same summary of the issue on Steam as well and even there I have yet to see a single reply of someone disagreeing that these controls are bad and traditional RTS.like ones would be a significant improvement.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying this to compliment myself, but just to stress a thing to Larian: when even in a forum like this you can hardly find a single person willing to defend the system you are using, there must be something genuinely weak about it that NEEDS to be addressed.


Not so fast, sunshine.

First off, I fully agree that it’s currently quite wonky, and even in DOS2 it was a bit cumbersome.

However, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the whole linking party members system in principle, it just needs some refinement. There’s certainly some advantages to a system where you can separate one or more characters and leave the rest moving as a group. Particularly in a game where you can send one character off to the other end of the map to do things separate from from the rest of the party. I imagine it’s pretty useful for multiplayer, so for instance 2 players can have 2 teams of 2 moving together, without having to constantly select 2 characters to move.

There’s certainly big issues with pathfinding, using stealth, and even the dragging to link and unlink characters (which really should have been improved 2 games ago), but the basic system isn’t bad at all. If they fix things like the pathfinding and the amount your lead character gets ahead, and add some shortcuts for linking and unlinking party members (eg shift-click to unlink and move) then it could be a better system than other games.

I’m not sure why some want to drag a selection box around characters they want to move in 3D game with so much height variation. It works well for infinity engine and similar games, but that doesn’t mean it would work well for this one.


If the party was ever split up and drag selecting wasn't handy, you could just shift or control click portraits, or directly on the characters. You know, like Baldur's Gate. When the party was together, drag selecting would be faster and you could use that. The basic control scheme in DoS and BG3 IS bad. It's slower and more cumbersome than traditional BG controls in every way.
Hey are we talking about how you have to make everybody jump individually otherwise your entire party just nope so off into the distance? Because the fact that you have to make everybody jump individually or your entire party just malfunctions is absolutely ridiculous especially with the verticality of this game compared to the previous divinity titles
Originally Posted by Praetox
Hey are we talking about how you have to make everybody jump individually otherwise your entire party just nope so off into the distance? Because the fact that you have to make everybody jump individually or your entire party just malfunctions is absolutely ridiculous especially with the verticality of this game compared to the previous divinity titles

Yeah, that’s basically a consequence of not being able to select/give the same command to multiple units at once.
Same as being forced to put in and out of stealth characters individually.

Because, you know, shitty control scheme is shitty, even if Mr “Not so fast” here takes pride in being the only life form on this planet willing to defend it.
Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by Dagless

However, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the whole linking party members system in principle, it just needs some refinement.

Well, congratulations, you just ruined a spotless record for the sake of it and managed to support TWO terrible design decisions in a row.
Hope you'll sleep well with this heinous crime on your conscience.


Sorry to break your spotless record of people all forgetting (or not caring) that the control system has to work for multiplayer as well.

I know it’s nice to bask in all those plus +1s, but you did actually ask why why they used this system, compared to all the single player games you mentioned.

A simple example is two players each controlling their main character and one NPC. You ‘d want 2 teams of 2 moving around without having to select them each time. Then you might want to give one player control of both NPCs while the other goes solo for a bit. There’s also potential conflicts if both players try to grab control of the same character at the same time.

I’m not entirely sure what’s going on under the hood, but I think it’s more than just selecting and moving characters, but switching control of them between up to 4 computers.

Originally Posted by Mogan

If the party was ever split up and drag selecting wasn't handy, you could just shift or control click portraits, or directly on the characters. You know, like Baldur's Gate. When the party was together, drag selecting would be faster and you could use that. The basic control scheme in DoS and BG3 IS bad. It's slower and more cumbersome than traditional BG controls in every way.


I’m all for better and faster ways to link/unlink characters and move them. I don’t much like dragging portraits about, as that’s always been a bit finicky. But I do find having them grouped can be useful even in single player. For multiplayer, it’s probably essential to have something like the way they’ve done it.

Suggestions to improve the system are helpful. Just saying it that original BG is better isn’t really, and its more likely to be ignored.
Honestly I never use a linked party in BG3, unless I'm just moving through in an already cleared area. Or have to go through an instance door with full party.
Would be suicide to move with the way is set up.

I control just a single character, rest is parked one by one, in stealth, somewhere safe. Then after the scouting ahead is done, I move them one by one. Takes very long, it's really like a chess game, just way slower.

Feels like hard work to move everything right, but there's no other way. Once I was lazy, coming from camp and the game joined them in a party, and I moved toward the swamp area, where of course was a trap in the water. Then couldn't move them away at all because they were stuck at different times and their health started going down fast, so had to un-chain and save them one by one.
After that had to go back to camp to heal. So learned my lesson: never move all at once.



Originally Posted by Dagless


Sorry to break your spotless record of people all forgetting (or not caring) that the control system has to work for multiplayer as well.


You seem to be under the delusion that Larian games are the only titles in the genre supporting multiplayer. OR a gamepad-friendly control scheme, for all that matter.

Quote
A simple example is two players each controlling their main character and one NPC.

Which is is still incomparably better with RTS controls. You know, the genre that across almost three decades since Dune 2 PERFECTED having to control multiple units at once and make it as quick and intuitive as possible.
Unless you are adamant about playing with a controller... Where incidentally NO ONE would prevent you to still use with an autofollow feature, as other games did.

You are acting smug about "people basking in their +1s" and taking pride in your being the lone voice outside of the choir, but it's starting to sound like you just love to defend terrible designs for the sake of it, to be perfectly honest.
Which I wouldn't care for, if your effort to be special wouldn't be harmful for the quality of the product in the long run.

P.S. Fun fact: controllers aren't even supported and usable currently. It's in the "to do" list.





Agreed. Movement and precision can be downright infuriating at times with the current setup. Took me awhile when I first started to even find out there was no partial select or full party select option outside of the cumbersome and fiddly "chaining" system. I much preferred the more fast and precise "click and drag box" of the original BG series. Also, the formation options gave me knowledge of exactly where a party member would go or attempt to go.
I was specially salty about the movement today playing a Raven familiar. A FLYING animal not being able to follow you because of a ledge is ridiculous.
Originally Posted by iMage
Agreed. Movement and precision can be downright infuriating at times with the current setup. Took me awhile when I first started to even find out there was no partial select or full party select option outside of the cumbersome and fiddly "chaining" system. I much preferred the more fast and precise "click and drag box" of the original BG series. Also, the formation options gave me knowledge of exactly where a party member would go or attempt to go.


A quick and dirty workaround to the issue would at very least be a hotkey to chain/unchain everyone instantly. It would still suck and be just a marginal patchwork to a system that requires an extensive revamp, but at least there would be a convenient safenet against the most infuriating situations.

P.S. I literally just relaized that there's a typo in the thread title and I can't find an option to edit it, for some reason.
Never had to "figure out" how to move characters before in a CRPG. It's always been intuitive. The movement and party formation management in this game feels wonky and broken.
It's funny to me that a team who had never worked on video games before and had so little programming knowledge (BioWare) managed to create a CRPG that did so many things right the first time including movement and party management...
Originally Posted by Tuco
Sorry for the blunt title, I tried a more polite "Honest feedback: I don't like the way Larian defaults control of the whole party" but I ran out of characters half way through the sentence.

Aaaanyway, back to the topic.

This control based on the position of a single character with all companions defaulting on auto-follow is genuinely cumbersome when you compare it to pretty much any other RPG in the same subgenre: the old BG games, Torment, Icewind Dale, Temple of Elemental Evil, Pillars of Eternity, Pathfinder, etc., where you simply cliclck and drag to select multiple characters, keep them in a formation you can rotate dragging the cursor and you can quickly send each one of them in different direction with ONE click.


There are several problems with the Larian solution:

- it's slower to use properly when precision is required.
- it's less accurate.
- it's a mess that turns into a comedic skit with idiots running randomly anywhere in any situation where you need to give everyone QUICK instructions on where to position.
- that mess can be deadly when there are combat triggers and/or traps around.

I can't honestly think of a single excuse to defend this "innovative" system they introduced since DOS1 in comparison with the above-mentioned titles.

I have to ask my fellows forum dwelllers: is there ANYONE who actually likes the Larian system the most? And if that's the case can that good soul (may the gods have mercy on him) tell us WHY?




Agreed, I much prefer selectable formations the same as in the old Infinity engine games, that have been emulated in the newer CRPGs, I think it worked really well in them and with a little tweaking could probably service this game quite nicely. and yes I find Larians way rather confusing and unintuitive in comparison. I haven't had chance to put much time into it yet so I don't know if their system will grow on me but I don't think so, I found a top down view to play the game (though I don't remember how) so why not give us classic controls with the classic view?
Originally Posted by Sir Sparhawk

Agreed, I much prefer selectable formations the same as in the old Infinity engine games, that have been emulated in the newer CRPGs, I think it worked really well in them and with a little tweaking could probably service this game quite nicely. and yes I find Larians way rather confusing and unintuitive in comparison.

I haven't had chance to put much time into it yet so I don't know if their system will grow on me but I don't think so, I found a top down view to play the game (though I don't remember how) so why not give us classic controls with the classic view?

I can't speak for you, but I can tell you that if anything over the years using it since DOS1 I've grown more and more annoyed about it. There's no "getting use to it".
But even if that happened somehow, would be the gaming equivalent of growing accustomed to an abusive relationship.
how about this new party movement, WITH a smart ruling system :

-1 party by default avoids obvious harm (hitbox), can be overwritten in option.
-2 party split button.
-3 party memory jumping to follow u'r jump steps, or try. ( yes i currently make them jump one by one over obstacles and it gets my immersion to a crawling halt)
-4 option : my party ignores harm existence if they are not in sight to see me walk on specific or all trap/terrains.
-5 party not jumping down roofs by autopathing, to jump down roofs, go to the edge first.
Originally Posted by Ellynrie
how about this new party movement, WITH a smart ruling system :

-1 party by default avoids obvious harm (hitbox), can be overwritten in option.
-2 party split button.
-3 party memory jumping to follow u'r jump steps, or try. ( yes i currently make them jump one by one over obstacles and it gets my immersion to a crawling halt)
-4 option : my party ignores harm existence if they are not in sight to see me walk on specific or all trap/terrains.
-5 party not jumping down roofs by autopathing, to jump down roofs, go to the edge first.


Seems like an extremely convoluted solution that address only parts of the issues, to a problem that could be solved way more easily in a definitive manner.
No need to sugarcoat it: It is horrible.
Originally Posted by Skjoldur
No need to sugarcoat it: It is horrible.

Never intended to.
As I said several times, my hate for it is only growing the more I use it.
This is the clunkiest RPG I've ever played, bar none. No formations, individual jumping coupled with terrible pathing, the stealth to combat transition... just all around terrible. Targeting needs to be improved as well. It would be ideal to click the party member's portrait when casting a spell on them, but nope, gotta pixelbitch around the map. Oh well, enjoy the healing word Goblin #2.
Here's what I'd like to see:

1. Let us select multiple characters at once and give generic orders to every selected at the same time. If I've got two or more party members selected and I hit sneak, they all sneak.

2. Let us drag select and click on characters to select them. Rick-click can be talk to, or talk can be added to the context menu. Items on the ground that can be moved should be moveable only while a modifier key is held down (maybe one that also highlights all interactable objects?!).

3. Button and key command for select all party members.

4. No more auto follow. It's a bad solution to a problem a CRPG like this shouldn't have.

5. Freer camera. Only being able to orbit on a flat plane is too restrictive. Whatever point the camera's looking at, let us orbit around it freely at any angle that doesn't clip through the ground. And let us zoom out further so the camera's whacking into terrain less.
Originally Posted by Mogan
Here's what I'd like to see:

1. Let us select multiple characters at once and give generic orders to every selected at the same time. If I've got two or more party members selected and I hit sneak, they all sneak.

2. Let us drag select and click on characters to select them. Rick-click can be talk to, or talk can be added to the context menu. Items on the ground that can be moved should be moveable only while a modifier key is held down (maybe one that also highlights all interactable objects?!).

3. Button and key command for select all party members.

4. No more auto follow. It's a bad solution to a problem a CRPG like this shouldn't have.

5. Freer camera. Only being able to orbit on a flat plane is too restrictive. Whatever point the camera's looking at, let us orbit around it freely at any angle that doesn't clip through the ground. And let us zoom out further so the camera's whacking into terrain less.

A sensible list.
I’d object just the fact that auto-follow could stay as a toggle-option.
You know, for people who like to suffer.
Autofollow is the lazy answer to not having a proper party movement system. Just like the pathfinding seems baby steps even for enemies.
There are many issues with the system as it stands and it seems obvious that it at heart has a MP feel to it as individually the characters are fine right, by and large.

I am going with a hybrid of it's likely to stay vs what I would like to have, vs a complete redesign, as I am not sure that's likely, but here goes:

- Assign a Leader slot.
Let's say far left (even is split parties), slightly raised or highlighted or whatever as a visual reminder. Party members follow/rearrange themselves to that PC and not to the one I double clicked (as that pulls characters out from where I just placed them AAAARGH!).

- Characters copy Leader Action
If all characters are in Party mode, any Action I select should be copied by the others, Stealth, Jump etc... (Ia ppreciate Jump requires "space", but the AI should allow the leader to move forwards and rubber band / snap to the leader once space is there to Jump and form up.

- Formations
Loose, tight, single-file, etc... Currently everything is too loose. THe main character moves forwards, the others wait and then join seemingly at their leisure. If I stumble into Combat, my main character is several metres ahead of my party, okish if all ranged, bad if melee. Would also allow easier navigation of areas.

- Un-Link/Re-Link All
There are times the game wants you to use TB individual commands, but then it should make doing that convenient and easy. Step 1 is to allow us to unlink or relink Everyone at will, rather than just by dragging individuals.

- Single Click select and Camera focus
I would like to click on a portrait and have the camera pan to that character If I assign said character a task, say, stealth and investigate a chest, it should uncouple them from the team (again this assumes they don't switch to no teams and having to always select all to move a party)

- Cast to Portrait
In the thick of battle I want to select my spell target based on Portrait, either top left in inititative queue or (if my party) then bottom left

- Talk to party member should be right click
Speaks for itself, too easy to accidentally start a conversation, one could get used to it as is, but I think wanting to start a chat with someone doesn't need to be that easy

Those are the first "concepts" that spring to mind based upon building what is there. That is not to say I would do it that if given free licence to re-do the system, but given the MP aspect and potential controller friendliness, I have tried to keep it based on what we already have,

I will add as I go along, or jump onto some of the other concepts people have

Every time I swap character, my party members will walk around wildly to follow the character I selected, this is pretty annoying when u just want to cast guidance on someone.
Originally Posted by Riandor
There are many issues with the system as it stands and it seems obvious that it at heart has a MP feel to it as individually the characters are fine right, by and large.

I am going with a hybrid of it's likely to stay vs what I would like to have, vs a complete redesign, as I am not sure that's likely, but here goes:

CUT

When you really think about it, it's somewhat hilarious that we need to discuss all sorts of convoluted workaround to salvage a system that has virtually no redeeming qualities compared to a 20 years older alternative.

What's worse, if being controller friendly was the real crux of the issue, nothing is preventing Larian to keep the control scheme unchanged when playing with controllers (and even then, while admittedly I didn't give it much of my time to test it extensively, wouldn't be surprised if better alternatives already exist).
Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by Riandor
There are many issues with the system as it stands and it seems obvious that it at heart has a MP feel to it as individually the characters are fine right, by and large.

I am going with a hybrid of it's likely to stay vs what I would like to have, vs a complete redesign, as I am not sure that's likely, but here goes:

CUT

When you really think about it, it's somewhat hilarious that we need to discuss all sorts of convoluted workaround to salvage a system that has virtually no redeeming qualities compared to a 20 years older alternative.

What's worse, if being controller friendly was the real crux of the issue, nothing is preventing Larian to keep the control scheme unchanged when playing with controllers (and even then, while admittedly I didn't give it much of my time to test it extensively, wouldn't be surprised if better alternatives already exist).

Originally designed as pure PC Game with an RTS controls feel and yes it worked great as a PC game designed for opertion in Real Time.

I certainly don't disagree with you, I guess I am approaching it from the "someone must have had a reason" aspect and looking to offer improvement suggestions. Even if that reason was "it kinda worked fine in DoS and to save time we have just adopted that to make sure we hit release based on current budget." Who knows what might change given a strong EA uptake, etc...

We are also just going on the assumption that what is in EA is by and large finished mechanics in need of refinement, whereas they could easily be expecting to do an overhaul but didn't want to delay EA as a result. Hence my stance I guess.

I also still struggle as a solo player with the concept of stealthing / moving characters into a location and others triggering a combat, but the one I initially stealthed is considered outside of combat and not in the turn queue. It's odd. Probably works better in MP, but as a solo play it isn't intuitive, not at first at any rate, maybe I need to play more.
I think I would extend the radius of putting characters into TB mode once Combat has started, but find a way to show they are not yet involved, other than leaving them out of the inititiative sequence.

As of right now if I think I have someone in a sneaky position and initiate combat, I don't immediately see that my sneaky rogue isn't yet in combat and I miss "their turn" if I am not careful.
Originally Posted by Riandor
- Formations
Loose, tight, single-file, etc... Currently everything is too loose. THe main character moves forwards, the others wait and then join seemingly at their leisure. If I stumble into Combat, my main character is several metres ahead of my party, okish if all ranged, bad if melee. Would also allow easier navigation of areas.

- Cast to Portrait
In the thick of battle I want to select my spell target based on Portrait, either top left in inititative queue or (if my party) then bottom left

- Talk to party member should be right click
Speaks for itself, too easy to accidentally start a conversation, one could get used to it as is, but I think wanting to start a chat with someone doesn't need to be that easy



I agree with those, starting unwanted conversations and not being able to cast at portrait really bothered me.

Also it just makes sense to have scouts and tanks in the front of the party but that doesn't mean they should do the talking.
Originally Posted by Tuco
I have to ask my fellows forum dwelllers: is there ANYONE who actually likes the Larian system the most? And if that's the case can that good soul (may the gods have mercy on him) tell us WHY?


Not me, I'm with you 100%.
Something really should be done to improve this part of the game, but I am doubtful it will happen. DOS2 had the same system and also has consistently had calls to change the system. What I am finding is that it is worse in BG3 at the moment because character selection does not always 'take' with the first click, and even if it does, attempts to drag and unchain the character aren't always successful, resulting in the character running to the spot where I meant to move the picture.
Originally Posted by Tuco

This control based on the position of a single character with all companions defaulting on auto-follow is genuinely cumbersome when you compare it to pretty much any other RPG in the same subgenre: the old BG games, Torment, Icewind Dale, Temple of Elemental Evil, Pillars of Eternity, Pathfinder, etc., where you simply cliclck and drag to select multiple characters, keep them in a formation you can rotate dragging the cursor and you can quickly send each one of them in different direction with ONE click.

In general, +1.
However, there are some things to say about some of the other points.
Originally Posted by Tuco

There are several problems with the Larian solution:

- it's slower to use properly when precision is required.

True. And honestly, this is probably my biggest gripe with the whole thing. I want to move one character on their own? It takes a minimum of 3 actions to do so. Right click, ungroup, select, move. Maybe I could bind some shortcut keys to do it, dunno, haven't really investigated that far, but it's really annoying to have to ungroup everyone, all the time, right click, ungroup, right click, ungroup, right click, ungroup, and then start moving. And then the reverse when combat is over and I just want to move them as a group again. This whole system would be made a lot less cumbersome if there was simply a group all / ungroup all toggle button. Perhaps there is? I'll have to look and see if I can find one. Even then, I still think that would be more convoluted than the intuitive point and click of the way the previous BG games worked.

Originally Posted by Tuco

- it's less accurate.

Perhaps, I'm not sure this is true though. I'm inclined to say that technically it's not. If you ungroup all of your party members, select the one you want, and then only move that party member, it's just as precise as the other systems. Of course, if you're used to the normal way of doing things, you're going to spend a lot of time trying to do things the old way, and that will MAKE you inaccurate, because your inputs will be errors. Not exactly a problem with the system itself, though.

Originally Posted by Tuco

- it's a mess that turns into a comedic skit with idiots running randomly anywhere in any situation where you need to give everyone QUICK instructions on where to position.

This is definitely false. You never really need to give anyone quick instructions on where to position, it's a turn based game. Take as long as you want. However, of course, the fact of it being turn based and not time critical definitely isn't a good excuse for having a clunky interface.

Originally Posted by Tuco

- that mess can be deadly when there are combat triggers and/or traps around.

True. But again, not really because the system itself is inaccurate, but rather because a lot of my inputs are errors, because I'm used to doing things a different way. It would still be nice to have a more intuitive interface, of course.







Originally Posted by BadgerMan
Originally Posted by Tuco

- it's a mess that turns into a comedic skit with idiots running randomly anywhere in any situation where you need to give everyone QUICK instructions on where to position.

This is definitely false. You never really need to give anyone quick instructions on where to position, it's a turn based game. Take as long as you want. However, of course, the fact of it being turn based and not time critical definitely isn't a good excuse for having a clunky interface.

Counter-objection: the entire thread is about the part of the game that controls in real time. No one is complaining about the turn-based controls.
And you have just to look at the countless posts of people [rightfully] bitching that trying to cast Guidance on a companion gets easily messy if you don't take "preparatory steps" before (like forcefully switching to turn-based mode or unchaning/re-chaining characters).
I don't think the movement system is going to change to allow multiple characters to be selected. The way it is now, it is extremely "controller friendly" and since controller support is going to be added, I doubt they are going to create an entirely new movement system that will be completely separate from the controller based one and only work with mouse and keyboard. The movement system is also very "multiplayer friendly."

That said, I think there are some more simple things that can be changed to make it much less frustrating.

1. If you press "c" or click the stealth thing, just make every character currently linked to the one you are controlling go into stealth or come out of stealth.

2. Provide a way for party members to teleport to one another. Do it just like the pyramids in Divinity. This will solve the issue of one character jumping over something and then having to manually jump every other character to them.
Originally Posted by Creslin321
I don't think the movement system is going to change to allow multiple characters to be selected. The way it is now, it is extremely "controller friendly" and since controller support is going to be added, I doubt they are going to create an entirely new movement system that will be completely separate from the controller based one and only work with mouse and keyboard. The movement system is also very "multiplayer friendly."


I don't see how changing it for mouse and keyboard would prevent Larian from sticking to the same questionable scheme when playing with a controller.

But still, let's not waste our time worrying about what we think they are going or not going to do. This is not about making predictions, but judging what's there.

Let's stick to the facts; does it suck or it does not?
It does, it fucking does. It sucks so badly it's almost universally loathed by anyone who doesn't work at Larian (and maybe even among them) or isn't "Mr Not so fast".

In a forum where even arguments about crap being edible have their defenders, that alone should be an alarming tell that something is wrong.
Not sure if this has been stated already, but if you wanted to control each party member individually, you could break the party apart and move each one individually. That is an option. Again, let's see what Larian can do when released.
Originally Posted by Vortex138
Not sure if this has been stated already, but if you wanted to control each party member individually, you could break the party apart and move each one individually. That is an option. Again, let's see what Larian can do when released.

Well, of course it has. The entire discussion is specifically about how annoying that is. Especially because:
1- You need to relink them later to move them as a whole group.
2- Once separated you are forced to move each one of them individually. You can't select multiple units and move them together...
3- ...Which also means you can't give group commands like "Jump" or "Go stealth" for multiple units at once.
Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by Creslin321
I don't think the movement system is going to change to allow multiple characters to be selected. The way it is now, it is extremely "controller friendly" and since controller support is going to be added, I doubt they are going to create an entirely new movement system that will be completely separate from the controller based one and only work with mouse and keyboard. The movement system is also very "multiplayer friendly."


I don't see how changing it for mouse and keyboard would prevent Larian from sticking to the same questionable scheme when playing with a controller.

But still, let's not waste our time worrying about what we think they are going or not going to do. This is not about making predictions, but judging what's there.

Let's stick to the facts; does it suck or it does not?
It does, it fucking does. It sucks so badly it's almost universally loathed by anyone who doesn't work at Larian (and maybe even among them) or isn't "Mr Not so fast".

In a forum where even arguments about crap being edible have their defenders, that alone should be an alarming tell that something is wrong.


I don't think it sucks as much as you think. There's definitely problems, but I think they can be solved by making tweaks to what's there as opposed to completely changing it to be more like the RTS style of BG, Pillars or Eternity, etc.

If you get rid of the headaches of things like stealth, pathing, etc. Then I really don't think it's that bad. I mean this system was basically used in DOS 1 and 2 and tons of people love those games.
Originally Posted by Creslin321

I don't think it sucks as much as you think. There's definitely problems, but I think they can be solved by making tweaks to what's there as opposed to completely changing it to be more like the RTS style of BG, Pillars or Eternity, etc.

Everything can be salvaged somehow to some extent, but at some point a wise man has to realize when all the effort is just going on putting more lipstick on a pig.

Quote
If you get rid of the headaches of things like stealth, pathing, etc. Then I really don't think it's that bad. I mean this system was basically used in DOS 1 and 2 and tons
of people love those games.

Yeah, well... How? By making these things automated improving the auto-follow? This is all a long series of convoluted work-arounds that are simply trying to ignore the core of the problem.
The system doesn't work. It's counter-intuitive, cumbersome, slow to use and a waste of time to adapt to.

It's not just that the alternatives are better in some areas. It's that they are better in every single one and the only redeeming feature of the system ("Just control one character if you want, the other will follow") has been done better by other games and can STILL be used passing at other control schemes.



Originally Posted by Creslin321
I don't think it sucks as much as you think. There's definitely problems, but I think they can be solved by making tweaks to what's there as opposed to completely changing it to be more like the RTS style of BG, Pillars or Eternity, etc.

If you get rid of the headaches of things like stealth, pathing, etc. Then I really don't think it's that bad. I mean this system was basically used in DOS 1 and 2 and tons of people love those games.


If people love DOS games it doesn't mean they love everything about them. I enjoyed them very much but I absolutely hate this chain system. And why make all those tweaks when you can just use a normal established system?
Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by Creslin321

I don't think it sucks as much as you think. There's definitely problems, but I think they can be solved by making tweaks to what's there as opposed to completely changing it to be more like the RTS style of BG, Pillars or Eternity, etc.

Everything can be salvaged somehow to some extent, but at some point a wise man has to realize when all the effort is just going on putting more lipstick on a pig.

Quote
If you get rid of the headaches of things like stealth, pathing, etc. Then I really don't think it's that bad. I mean this system was basically used in DOS 1 and 2 and tons
of people love those games.

Yeah, well... How? By making these things automated improving the auto-follow? This is all a long series of convoluted work-arounds that are simply trying to ignore the core of the problem.
The system doesn't work. It's counter-intuitive, cumbersome, slow to use and a waste of time to adapt to.

It's not just that the alternatives are better in some areas. It's that they are better in every single one and the only redeeming feature of the system ("Just control one character if you want, the other will follow") has been done better by other games and can STILL be used passing at other control schemes.





I get that you don’t like the system, but that’s really just an opinion.

If they changed the system to be like BG2, you would probably have just as Divinity fans complaining about it.

The system as it is has some major problems that are making people hate it.

Stealth is one, pathing through surfaces is another, and party members not following when you jump is a third.

If these get fixed, I think the system will be much better.
Originally Posted by Creslin321

I get that you don’t like the system, but that’s really just an opinion.

If they changed the system to be like BG2, you would probably have just as Divinity fans complaining about it.

Heh. I'd be ready to take bets against that.
full agree with OP, the current movement system is bad for party management.

- if you want to jump across something as a party, need to unlink every character, and let them jump one at a time over, then link them again
- no drag select or click on screen to select characters
- when selecting another character as 'active', the other 3 starts moving around like idiots to position them for following the new active character
- bad pathing...characters on follow that run through surface damage effects while following.

- i miss a system where you can put waypoints for moving your characters around surface effects when in combat -> is that in the game or not? couldn't find anything - if not, it should be added.
Originally Posted by Charod
full agree with OP, the current movement system is bad for party management.

- i miss a system where you can put waypoints for moving your characters around surface effects when in combat -> is that in the game or not? couldn't find anything - if not, it should be added.



Yeah, this is something i started to look for during real time movement as well when my characters kept running through vines and fire
Food for thoughts:
there have been like TWO attempts to defend Larian's system so far in the entire thread (and its clones I posted on other forums) and both of them in the end boil down to "It wouldn't be so atrociously bad IF..."
followed by a list of convoluted changes and compromises that would allegedly make the system somewhat palatable. Maybe. To a limited extent.

Woah, what a glowing endorsement.
So I unchained my characters, which put them out of order. Then when I reconnected them, the game did NOT want my PC as the main character at the front of the stack. I literally spent minutes fiddling with this until my character would go back to the front of the stack. So annoying.

Also, I'm constantly trying to select a party member (which should work by clicking on them) only to initiate a dialogue. Which wouldn't be so bad if it wasn't a cut scene style conversation. Very frustrating when I just want to click the character, then have to exit a conversation and try again. smirk
What's this? Another person having a terrible experience trying to get used to these controls?
Color me shocked.
Also, bump.


The chain system is irritating for so many reasons, just get rid of it and give us marquee select.
Originally Posted by Charod
full agree with OP, the current movement system is bad for party management.

- if you want to jump across something as a party, need to unlink every character, and let them jump one at a time over, then link them again
- no drag select or click on screen to select characters
- when selecting another character as 'active', the other 3 starts moving around like idiots to position them for following the new active character
- bad pathing...characters on follow that run through surface damage effects while following.

- i miss a system where you can put waypoints for moving your characters around surface effects when in combat -> is that in the game or not? couldn't find anything - if not, it should be added.


while not much can be done about the jumping since the characters cant all stand in the same spot, you realize a simple "chain/unchain all" button would solve most of this pretty well

what do you expect them to do when you choose a character to lead? do you want to command a line of characters from the middle right?

the game isn't done, models cant even move their fingers yet. Divinity 2 had a great pathing system where every character knew to avoid dangers if they could, why wouldnt this one get it too?
With the marquee select you can also do formations correctly from the looks of it. I hated their "formation" system they implemented in OS2. Half the time it didn't work and was really wonky.
Originally Posted by SwordSaintSilver
while not much can be done about the jumping since the characters cant all stand in the same spot, you realize a simple "chain/unchain all" button would solve most of this pretty well


Sure there can be. Select all characters -> click the jump button -> click the spot to jump to. The character pathing can reorganize them as/before/after they jump. Like, maybe there'd have to be enough space on the place you're jumping to for all companions to stand next to each other. But only maybe. I've seen characters run through other characters, so just allow that to happen while in the party jumping process and sort it out after everyone lands.
The AI already take each other in consideration when pathing, shouldn't be too hard to extend that to jumping as well.
Apparently the forum swallowed a good half dozens of the last posts during its maintenance (including a painfully long answer to Dr. Not So Fast).

Quick repost of where things started.
______________________


I was watching this minutes ago and I started laughing.
Guess who else noticed that party control is garbage?

https://youtu.be/RoynYvZSFus?t=1177

From a guy who's trying his hardest to say positive things about the game, I might add.

P.S. In case timed linking doesn't work properly for you just go at 19:37 and listen for a minute or two.
The movement currently turns the game into a grounds-keeper sim. Because your chars will randomly run through vines or fire, I feel obligated to burn all the vines I see (but that leaves fire, so I then have to freeze the burning vines). It's like I have to maintenance the environment just to run back and forth exploring an area. Not fun.
As I see it, the UI system to select which characters are grouped is a separate issue to the movement of the group.

If the selected character is in a group chained together, the character movement can work exactly the same as if all those characters were selected together. The fact that one character gets ahead before anyone else starts moving seems to be more about how the pathfinding works through the 3D world than the user interface. Compare with original BG which could just stack 2D sprites on top of each other on a flat background with far fewer obstacles in the way.

Another difference to consider is that in DOS2 and BG3 you can do things like initiate conversations with any character, so if you’ve selected everyone to move together, who speaks when you click on an NPC? You’d either need to select a single character to speak and then reselect the group to move on, or have an additional control to designate the speaker. That’s not a particularly big deal, but there maybe other similar things I’ve not thought of yet. Using teleport pyramids in DOS games is slightly different, but would be a similar issue.

Formations never worked that well in DOS2, partly due to the time lag to get into position (although that never seemed as bad as in BG3), but also some other weirdness like the selected character would always move to front even if they are supposed to be at the back. They should definitely improve that for BG3. I believe it was a bit more reliable in DOS1, but I’m not sure.

Chaining and unchaining characters by dragging their portraits is a bit of a pain, but I don’t think it’s the main problem. It should also be the simplest thing to fix. Something like shift-click to quickly unchain and move a character, and another shift-click to chain again should be all the UI really needs, IMO. But other shortcuts could help too.

I think if Larian can fix those issues, there are some advantages to the chaining and unchaining thing. Being able to take one or more characters off somewhere else and then move the others around without having to continually select multiple characters isn’t fundamentally bad. It just needs some tidying up.
Originally Posted by Dagless
As I see it, the UI system to select which characters are grouped is a separate issue to the movement of the group.

It could be, but they relate in the sense that Larian deliberately put in place a system that never let you select more than one unit under the assumption that the auto-follow when chained would be an adequate replacement.
Except there are countless scenarios where it is NOT. Like how bothersome it is to manage stealth for the whole party.


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If the selected character is in a group chained together, the character movement can work exactly the same as if all those characters were selected together.

It really doesn't. There is a significant and meaningful difference betwen "I'll click on the ground and rotate and decide where each one of these guys will move with a quick drag" and "I'll click here to decide where ONE character will go and the other will more or less orbit around it stumbling up and down like drunken idiots".

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The fact that one character gets ahead before anyone else starts moving seems to be more about how the pathfinding works through the 3D world than the user interface.
Not really. Not to mention we have more modern examples than BG1 among modern 3D games.


Quote
Another difference to consider is that in DOS2 and BG3 you can do things like initiate conversations with any character, so if you’ve selected everyone to move together, who speaks when you click on an NPC? You’d either need to select a single character to speak and then reselect the group to move on, or have an additional control to designate the speaker. That’s not a particularly big deal, but there maybe other similar things I’ve not thought of yet. Using teleport pyramids in DOS games is slightly different, but would be a similar issue.

Literally a non-issue, for both the reason that every other game in the genre manages it just fine AND the fact that claiming this to be an issue with "RTS controls" ignores how even more frequently the problem presents itself with the autofollow system.


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Formations never worked that well in DOS2, partly due to the time lag to get into position (although that never seemed as bad as in BG3), but also some other weirdness like the selected character would always move to front even if they are supposed to be at the back. They should definitely improve that for BG3. I believe it was a bit more reliable in DOS1, but I’m not sure.

Yeah, they never worked because the auto-follow made them pointless and unreliable, while the alternative option was to unchain everyone and move each one of them individually. Once again: feasible, but clumsy, slow, inefficient.

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Chaining and unchaining characters by dragging their portraits is a bit of a pain

And yet you decided for yourself this role of Devil's Advocate, defending a bad and inefficient system just for the sake of it.

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I think if Larian can fix those issues, there are some advantages to the chaining and unchaining thing.

I'd love for someone to list at least a couple, possibly based on a real use case, rather than some vague "Who knows, maybe in some special case, with the right star alignment, during a full moon".
Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by Dagless
As I see it, the UI system to select which characters are grouped is a separate issue to the movement of the group.

It could be, but they relate in the sense that Larian deliberately put in place a system that never let you select more than one unit under the assumption that the auto-follow when chained would be an adequate replacement.
Except there are countless scenarios where it is NOT. Like how bothersome it is to manage stealth for the whole party.


Others have suggested that activating stealth whilst chained should activate it for everyone chained. That sounds like a sensible idea. It’s effectively how it would work by multi selecting too, so if there’s any issues with that, it would be the same issues as with what you propose.


Quote
Quote
If the selected character is in a group chained together, the character movement can work exactly the same as if all those characters were selected together.

It really doesn't. There is a significant and meaningful difference betwen "I'll click on the ground and rotate and decide where each one of these guys will move with a quick drag" and "I'll click here to decide where ONE character will go and the other will more or less orbit around it stumbling up and down like drunken idiots".


If the characters are stumbing “like drunken idiots” then it’s probably because they are trying to arrange themselves without clipping through each other, trying to avoid surfaces and obstacles, all trying to use the same ladder, etc. I doubt it’s anything to do with the minor detail of only having one portrait highlighted in the UI. That’s my main point. If Larian added add icons on the ground for all characters moving and the drag to rotate (or similar), it would be functionally identical to multi-selecting which ones to move, except you’d only need to select one character in a chain to move instead of everyone.

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The fact that one character gets ahead before anyone else starts moving seems to be more about how the pathfinding works through the 3D world than the user interface.
Not really. Not to mention we have more modern examples than BG1 among modern 3D games.


And maybe those games handle the movement better. Examples would be handy, maybe there’s something to learn from them. That doesn’t mean it having characters chained together that’s at fault.

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Quote
Another difference to consider is that in DOS2 and BG3 you can do things like initiate conversations with any character, so if you’ve selected everyone to move together, who speaks when you click on an NPC? You’d either need to select a single character to speak and then reselect the group to move on, or have an additional control to designate the speaker. That’s not a particularly big deal, but there maybe other similar things I’ve not thought of yet. Using teleport pyramids in DOS games is slightly different, but would be a similar issue.

Literally a non-issue, for both the reason that every other game in the genre manages it just fine AND the fact that claiming this to be an issue with "RTS controls" ignores how even more frequently the problem presents itself with the autofollow system.


As far as I’m aware, Larian’s games are the only RPGs where any party member can talk to NPCs. In old BG, PoE, DA, etc. it’s always the protagonist talking.

I said it’s probably not a big issue, but it still needs sorting and you’ve not said how you propose to do it. If Larian were to follow your advice they would need to decide how to handle this and probably more consequences that neither of us have even thought of. You can brush it off as a non issue, but they can’t. They’d need to think through everything the player can do in the game and make sure they have a solution for it all that’s easy to use. Thats why it’s not going to happen, btw.


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Formations never worked that well in DOS2, partly due to the time lag to get into position (although that never seemed as bad as in BG3), but also some other weirdness like the selected character would always move to front even if they are supposed to be at the back. They should definitely improve that for BG3. I believe it was a bit more reliable in DOS1, but I’m not sure.

Yeah, they never worked because the auto-follow made them pointless and unreliable, while the alternative option was to unchain everyone and move each one of them individually. Once again: feasible, but clumsy, slow, inefficient.


Partly true. The “use formation at start of combat” option kind of works a bit. It’s a poor substitute for individually positioning ranged characters on high ground with clear line of sight and stealthing a rouge behind enemies though. But then it’s hard to conceive a formation system that equals that level of control.

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Chaining and unchaining characters by dragging their portraits is a bit of a pain

And yet you decided for yourself this role of Devil's Advocate, defending a bad and inefficient system just for the sake of it.


Just telling you what I think.

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I think if Larian can fix those issues, there are some advantages to the chaining and unchaining thing.

I'd love for someone to list at least a couple, possibly based on a real use case, rather than some vague "Who knows, maybe in some special case, with the right star alignment, during a full moon".


Seriously? The example I gave was for literally every time you spilt the party and want to move more than one character together. I do it all the time. Don't you ever split your parties? OK, when you send a rouge to scout ahead, when you need to split them to solve a puzzle.
I concur with the original post. Party movement is extremely cumbersome and/or aggravating. Solasta is also about to come out in early access (OCT 20), even in their pre-alpha demo from a year ago, they had party movement done very well.

I am not going to revisit all the reasons for why Larian's party control scheme is terrible, a hundred posts before me already have. If a game currently being developed by an indie team of 17 people can get this right, why is this AAA title sucking the fun out of my gameplay with a terrible implementation?
Originally Posted by Dagless

Others have suggested that activating stealth whilst chained should activate it for everyone chained. That sounds like a sensible idea. It’s effectively how it would work by multi selecting too, so if there’s any issues with that, it would be the same issues as with what you propose.

It may be situationally an improvement, and still garbage in case where you don't want to. Especially given that when chained people are put in stealth they start (once again) to follow the lead, which may not necessarily be what you want at any given moment.
In the end we are back at the usual point that you can either suffer to the inadequacies of the system or circumvent them with incredibly laborious and boring workarounds that in literally NO scenario match in comfort and practicality other control schemes more traditional.
What's best (or worst) is that even if some fringe soul here and there may ACTUALLY be a fan of the auto-follow system, you could still have it as an option on top of a "RTS-like" control.
"Do you hate convenience, precision and practicality in your control scheme? Toggle this little auto-follow button on the UI and you'll have to move just one character like in diablo, with all the other idiots just following you like sheep". There, Everyone happy, even masochists and controller fetishists.

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If the characters are stumbing “like drunken idiots” then it’s probably because they are trying to arrange themselves without clipping through each other

Yeah, well, aside for the fact that they do it every time you rotate the man in control even in the middle of a perfectly flat square, here's the thing: "please just don't", really. Just give me direct control and stay where I put you. I know you guys are trying to help but you aren't clearly good enough at this.


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The fact that one character gets ahead before anyone else starts moving seems to be more about how the pathfinding works through the 3D world than the user interface.
Not really. Not to mention we have more modern examples than BG1 among modern 3D games.


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And maybe those games handle the movement better.


Aaaand that's precisely what we are trying to argue in favor of even here. Because we want a game with better controls. Because it would make the experience better for everyone. Even in face of your useful attitude "No, guys, it may be difficult, let's not even try".

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As far as I’m aware, Larian’s games are the only RPGs where any party member can talk to NPCs.

Your awareness is lacking. Even in BG party members could start the conversation in place of the PG. It usually made little difference except when you wanted to make use of some more favorable charisma bonus or so, since the games were not sophisticated enough to have dialogues addressing the NPC like a different character. In games like IWD or ToEE the concept of "main character" doesn't even make much sense.


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Seriously? The example I gave was for literally every time you spilt the party and want to move more than one character together. I do it all the time. Don't you ever split your parties? OK, when you send a rouge to scout ahead, when you need to split them to solve a puzzle.

I had to do to, because I was forced to work with what I had. At no moment using these controls I've ever found myself thinking "Woah, this is such a nice improvement over being able to quickly give a destination to everyone (even in, hear this, COMPLETELY DIFFERENT DIRECTIONS!) with a couple of well targeted clicks".

Originally Posted by Jimmhel
I concur with the original post. Party movement is extremely cumbersome and/or aggravating. Solasta is also about to come out in early access (OCT 20), even in their pre-alpha demo from a year ago, they had party movement done very well.

I am not going to revisit all the reasons for why Larian's party control scheme is terrible, a hundred posts before me already have. If a game currently being developed by an indie team of 17 people can get this right, why is this AAA title sucking the fun out of my gameplay with a terrible implementation?

That's the $64k question. CRPGs figured this out far better 20 years ago and then kept using Baldur's Gate style controls in nearly every game in the genre since then. WHY does Baldur's Gate 3, in 2020, control so much worse than Baldur's Gate 1 in 1998?
Originally Posted by Mogan
[quote=Jimmhel] WHY does Baldur's Gate 3, in 2020, control so much worse than Baldur's Gate 1 in 1998?

It's weird, isn't it?
Most of the times when you go back to an old game you used to love the feeling can be bittersweet: "Uh, man, I didn't remember this controlling so poorly" or "UI/Controls surely have come a long way in the last 15 years" etc, etc.
Not here. Here you have the old 20 years old game being snappy, quick and intuitive to use, and conversely its modern iteration being a mess where you have to juggle between complications and minor annoyances to get shit done.
Sorry, I’m going to skip the rest, because we can go back and forth on details, which is probably distracting from my point, and this is the key point:

Originally Posted by Tuco

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And maybe those games handle the movement better.


Aaaand that's precisely what we are trying to argue in favor of even here. Because we want a game with better controls. Because it would make the experience better for everyone. Even in face of your useful attitude "No, guys, it may be difficult, let's not even try".


Yes! I agree that the movement should be improved. I’m NOT defending what we have now, and I’m NOT saying they shouldn’t try. I’ve suggested several areas that I think should be improved.

All I’m saying is that you can breakdown the movement control into 2 steps:
1. UI interface where the player indicates where they want the character or characters to go.
2. The scripts/subroutines/whatever the programming term is to move the characters into position.

The only significant thing I disagree with you (and most others apparently) is whether the jankiness is mainly coming from step 1 or 2. So much of the discussion is about the ability to multi-select characters, draw a box around characters, etc like in the good old days. But the assumption seems to be that the ability to do so would mean that characters smoothly move into position together whilst staying in formation. I’m very sceptical that that’s the case.

Try this hypothetical situation- Larian see all the requests to multi select characters, draw boxes, etc. basically copying the old BG movement UI. After they release an update with the new system you try to move a group of characters and they move one after the other just as they do now. Would you think they made a worthwhile change or would you say they spent their time making a system just as broken as before?

What I’m trying to say is that I think the biggest difference between what we have and what everybody wants isn’t the chained/unchained business. There’s no good reason the game can’t treat a group chained together the same way as a multi selected group. I think the issue is tthe code that tells characters how to move from A to B. I suspect the real reason for the following behavior is to avoid characters trying to move into the same space and crashing into each other. If so, that would make the UI difference a red herring.

As I said before, chaining and unchaining characters could really use some shortcuts as well, but that should be the easy part.
Frankly I'm also not a big fan of a "chain", neither in D:OS2 nor here. Larian has a ton of great ideas, but this, IMO, is one case they are probably wrong. I would prefer some smarter system that allows to select one part member by single click and direct only him, then maybe reset this selection some way, even if by just good ol' box selection of all portraits.

There also needs to be some tolerance to small movement by a leading character. Right now even small movement by selected character causes your whole party to often run around regrouping and what not. Relax guys, I just moved 2 centimeters towards a vendor or some NPC, no need to raise such a fuss.

Switching to another character to cast a buff makes them all go wild too there, like here in this example in this vid:

https://youtu.be/mn-ty-yGv_Q
Yeah i agree with the dreadful movement. Cant position/strafe in combat easily, cant avoid dangers, cant do basic things without chaos insuring.

Not to mention you cant even move past an ally, which your supposed to be able to do with double movement required. eg: 10ft instead of 5ft

Originally Posted by Gaidax
Frankly I'm also not a big fan of a "chain", neither in D:OS2 nor here. Larian has a ton of great ideas, but this, IMO, is one case they are probably wrong. I would prefer some smarter system that allows to select one part member by single click and direct only him, then maybe reset this selection some way, even if by just good ol' box selection of all portraits.

There also needs to be some tolerance to small movement by a leading character. Right now even small movement by selected character causes your whole party to often run around regrouping and what not. Relax guys, I just moved 2 centimeters towards a vendor or some NPC, no need to raise such a fuss.

Switching to another character to cast a buff makes them all go wild too there, like here in this example in this vid:

https://youtu.be/mn-ty-yGv_Q


Agreed
Originally Posted by Gaidax
Frankly I'm also not a big fan of a "chain", neither in D:OS2 nor here. Larian has a ton of great ideas, but this, IMO, is one case they are probably wrong. I would prefer some smarter system that allows to select one part member by single click and direct only him, then maybe reset this selection some way, even if by just good ol' box selection of all portraits.

There also needs to be some tolerance to small movement by a leading character. Right now even small movement by selected character causes your whole party to often run around regrouping and what not. Relax guys, I just moved 2 centimeters towards a vendor or some NPC, no need to raise such a fuss.

Switching to another character to cast a buff makes them all go wild too there, like here in this example in this vid:

https://youtu.be/mn-ty-yGv_Q


All correct. And really, the fact that some of us are TRYING to adapt to this system since DOS 1 and if anything the dislike for it has only grown over the years should be a big tell for Larian.

Here's another youtuber reviewing the Early Access Build end then pointing out as a side note how much he didn't like the controls:

EDIT - Direct link since embedding doesn't seem to work: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-y6mvpXQAc

It's not like youtubers are Gospel, but just to highlight how I don't even need to go and prompt people to speak against i: it's a system that many are naturally incline to dislike and criticize because it simply works poorly in most scenarios.
And even when you can make it appear somewhat functional, relatively speaking, it's still worse than the alternatives.



I hope there's some feedback from Larian soon. Would be nice to know if they have acknowledged that there is some serious flaws with the current way hits game handles movement and character control.
Originally Posted by Peranor
I hope there's some feedback from Larian soon. Would be nice to know if they have acknowledged that there is some serious flaws with the current way hits game handles movement and character control.

Yeah, I know it's not exactly realistic to expect someone from Larian to suddenly butt into the thread and say "We are doing exactly what you guys are asking", but I must admit I'm growing increasingly anxious to have ANY sign from the studio that they are aware these controls are in a dire need of a revamp, because the longer they stay as they are, the less likely it becomes to see the issue addressed later in production.

It's a worry even about other areas of the game, because as I said the flaws of this controls scheme act as a bad foundation to build up on even for other features (i.e. a possible increased in party size).
Just crossed this randomly on reddit. It was a discussion about party formations:

[Linked Image]


It may not be the issue everyone talks about all the time (well, except me), but at some point one have to ask: did any topic among this community ever find a similar overwhelming consensus about a certain design decision being bad?
Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by Peranor
I hope there's some feedback from Larian soon. Would be nice to know if they have acknowledged that there is some serious flaws with the current way hits game handles movement and character control.

Yeah, I know it's not exactly realistic to expect someone from Larian to suddenly butt into the thread and say "We are doing exactly what you guys are asking", but I must admit I'm growing increasingly anxious to have ANY sign from the studio that they are aware these controls are in a dire need of a revamp, because the longer they stay as they are, the less likely it becomes to see the issue addressed later in production.

It's a worry even about other areas of the game, because as I said the flaws of this controls scheme act as a bad foundation to build up on even for other features (i.e. a possible increased in party size).



Hopefully there will at least be some kind of respons from Larian soon. Maybe a longer post or vlog where they address the more common complaints and critiques from the community.
+1 i hadnt commented on this thread yet, but wanted to add a +1 to say that i agree with the others who have also posted here with concerns about how party management/movement is handled in game to get it back towards the top lists (jumping for each individual party members comes to mind). i found party movement both difficult to control and not really intuitive for a player new to larian's systems with the locking/unlocking mechanic

i would also add to this that the current operation of the camera control, mainly the locked camera/zoom angle, does party management no favors and can make it also difficult to navigate the map

some ppl also mentioned party formations above, and while i think this would be a nice feature to include (like the original bg games), i dont think party formations is as high a priority at this stage of the game - particularly if party size is set at 4, bc with 4 party members is party formation really impactful? i see it mostly as front/backline and thats it with 4 members, whereas with 6 i could see some more applicability.
Originally Posted by Warlocke
I would prefer a more traditional way of selecting characters. I had one situation where I jumped somewhere with my character and my companions went running off to meet me there on foot, immediately got into combat, and I had to reload. Dragging and selecting would be much better.


This, it happened in both the Blighted Village and the Goblin camp as I tried to go around on the sides, in both situations I had to make a jump and immediately the rest of the party goes off on foot to regroup. Yes, I could remember to separate the party, but its super cumbersome, especially with as often the game wants to do some light platforming with the jump feature.
The number of times I've carefully positioned all of my crew for an ambush only for none of my party to get a turn in the first round of combat is what annoys me. If you have one character in the fight and the rest of the party free to run around outside the combat, it's pretty immersion breaking, but I understand why, for multiplayer... but they never seem to get a turn in the first round of combat.
Originally Posted by nation

some ppl also mentioned party formations above, and while i think this would be a nice feature to include (like the original bg games), i dont think party formations is as high a priority at this stage of the game - particularly if party size is set at 4, bc with 4 party members is party formation really impactful? i see it mostly as front/backline and thats it with 4 members, whereas with 6 i could see some more applicability.



More than anything, party formations have hardly any reason to exist as long as your companions will keep repositioning randomly all around you at the drop of a hat.
Has anyone tried Solasta Crown of the Magister? If so, how does it handle group movement outside combat?
Originally Posted by Peranor
Has anyone tried Solasta Crown of the Magister? If so, how does it handle group movement outside combat?

Played the demo and liked it, but I'm not a fan of that aspect personally.
It uses a strange system where every single movement even out of combat is on a grid and the party moves as a unified block.
Originally Posted by Tuco

Played the demo and liked it, but I'm not a fan of that aspect personally.
It uses a strange system where every single movement even out of combat is on a grid and the party moves as a unified block.


Ah, I see. Not sure if that is much better either. But i'm going try it out once im done with the BG3 EA.
Not to drag the OT too much, but here's a Fextralife preview if you're interested:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vj9OKUTy7HA



Originally Posted by Tuco
Not to drag the OT too much, but here's a Fextralife preview if you're interested:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vj9OKUTy7HA






Thanks!
The movement looks a bit strange. Like blocks as you said. But it at least look like you can select and move individual characters without messing around with chain/unchain smile
Larian party movement and control has been an issue brought up since DivOS1 and was considered critical to address during DivOS2 development but nothing came of it. I would really like to see it changed to the classic CRPG control but I can say with 99% certainty that it is not going to happen. It didn't happen for DivOS2 despite feedback, I don't see any miracles happening this time.

That said +1 please change the awful party control mechanics.
I guess our hope in this case is trying to leverage the fact that this is supposed to be a follow up to the Baldur's Gate franchise rather than a new Divinity.
Which admittedly is not that strong argument, and in my opinion completely secondary to the fact that it's simply far worse than the alternative.

If I have to be honest I'm just surprised to see that while almost no one seems to like the current system, very few of us seem to consider addressing it a priority over other overblown topics like "Rest can be spammed" (yeah, well, it was always the case even in the older games).
Well, in my 8 main suggestions sent via the Launcher, it was my #1 issue (among my over 100 posts on the forums). It is a constant annoyance and it would improve the fun and playability for all.
you not being able to operate the system, doesn't mean it's bad. Having to get used to a system doesn't make it bad. You people just suck at adapting and if you run into trouble you start crying. Same shit every day. if you wanna ambush at the start of a fight, untether your party morons and go into turn based mode before engaging if the enemies are patrolling. LEARN THE GAME GODDAMNIT
Originally Posted by Skin Overbone
you not being able to operate the system, doesn't mean it's bad. Having to get used to a system doesn't make it bad. You people just suck at adapting and if you run into trouble you start crying. Same shit every day. if you wanna ambush at the start of a fight, untether your party morons and go into turn based mode before engaging if the enemies are patrolling. LEARN THE GAME GODDAMNIT


Please, drop this condescending bullshit. Some of us have been playing with this "system" since it was introduced in DOS 1.
I know perfectly how to leverage it and how to operate around it at any level.

That degree of familiarity is PRECISELY what makes me dislike it even more.
As I said multiple times across the thread, if anything getting more used to this mechanic (and its limitations) only increased my bitterness toward it.
Originally Posted by Skin Overbone
you not being able to operate the system, doesn't mean it's bad. Having to get used to a system doesn't make it bad. You people just suck at adapting and if you run into trouble you start crying. Same shit every day. if you wanna ambush at the start of a fight, untether your party morons and go into turn based mode before engaging if the enemies are patrolling. LEARN THE GAME GODDAMNIT



I'm sure I could find a way to steer a car without a steering wheel as well. But it would be very annoying and has nothing to do with my skill as a driver.
Stop being an apologist for bad game mechanics. It helps absolutely no one. Not the players and not the developers.
I have to agree that the way to control party in DAO and PoE is much better than it is in DOS and BG3.
Originally Posted by Peranor

I'm sure I could find a way to steer a car without a steering wheel as well. But it would be very annoying and has nothing to do with my skill as a driver.
Stop being an apologist for bad game mechanics. It helps absolutely no one. Not the players and not the developers.

Excellent analogy, I have to say.

And I obviously agree with the conclusion. Some people seem to be under the impression than deflecting any criticism instead of addressing it will do the game a favor, when it's almost benevolent sabotage.
Originally Posted by Skin Overbone
you not being able to operate the system, doesn't mean it's bad. Having to get used to a system doesn't make it bad. You people just suck at adapting and if you run into trouble you start crying. Same shit every day. if you wanna ambush at the start of a fight, untether your party morons and go into turn based mode before engaging if the enemies are patrolling. LEARN THE GAME GODDAMNIT

Don't feel so special. Everybody is able to "operate the system" but it doesn't mean it's a good system. How dare we leave our feedback during Early Access which we payed a full price for.
You people just suck at understanding that your opinion is not the right one and if you run into different opinion you start crying. Same shit every day.
Ahem.

Before bothering to respond to Skin Overbone, you might find checking his posting history worthwhile. It will save you time and effort.
Good thing this forum has an ignore feature. Don't feed the trolls. 🙂
Originally Posted by dunehunter
I have to agree that the way to control party in DAO and PoE is much better than it is in DOS and BG3.


That's because those games had a clear idea of what they wanted to be instead of suffering from Identity Crisis. Truly, this is a game reminiscent of the times we live in.
Originally Posted by Skin Overbone
you not being able to operate the system, doesn't mean it's bad. Having to get used to a system doesn't make it bad. You people just suck at adapting and if you run into trouble you start crying. Same shit every day. if you wanna ambush at the start of a fight, untether your party morons and go into turn based mode before engaging if the enemies are patrolling. LEARN THE GAME GODDAMNIT


Your opinion it's like using hand screwdriver even if electric ones are in the market.

The DOS1, DOS2 and now BG3 party management system is closer to using a coin instead of a screwdriver. Or maybe your fingers.
Originally Posted by Sadurian
Ahem.

Before bothering to respond to Skin Overbone, you might find checking his posting history worthwhile. It will save you time and effort.

Hm, usually they prefer different type of topics for trolling, what a weird choice lol. It doesn't really matter anyway. He just helped people to bring this topic up again, which is a good thing, I guess.
There seems to be a strange notion that fans of the BG series would know or care how controls are handled in the D:OS series. I've never played D:OS, and I have no intention of doing so. If you're going for the big time by reaching for BG3, the fans of that series should be heavily considered with the controls.
Originally Posted by Traycor
There seems to be a strange notion that fans of the BG series would know or care how controls are handled in the D:OS series. I've never played D:OS, and I have no intention of doing so. If you're going for the big time by reaching for BG3, the fans of that series should be heavily considered with the controls.



I've played both D:OS 1 and 2. And while I like them both very much I'l tell you right away that I didn't like them because of their control scheme, I liked them in spite of their control scheme smile
I think the problem is that Larian has made its brand with the motor it used for the DOS, wich had a really awfull movement system both with the controller (I play DOS on PS4) and the mouse-keyboard.

Still they made their name with those two games and so they landed the big contract: to make the third act of a D & D based rpg that is considered a milestone in such games, the 3rd chapter of Baldur's Gate.

Obviously they're going to exploit the motor they used in the games that became their brand. I just hope they'll take account of the criticism (is annoying to have to make jump the characters one by one et so on) and try to make the movements more smooth and that the story will be engaging like that of the Baldur's Gate of the days gone or the two DOS.
Originally Posted by Tuco
Sorry for the blunt title, I tried a more polite "Honest feedback: I don't like the way Larian defaults control of the whole party" but I ran out of characters half way through the sentence.

Aaaanyway, back to the topic.

This control based on the position of a single character with all companions defaulting on auto-follow is genuinely cumbersome when you compare it to pretty much any other RPG in the same subgenre: the old BG games, Torment, Icewind Dale, Temple of Elemental Evil, Pillars of Eternity, Pathfinder, etc., where you simply cliclck and drag to select multiple characters, keep them in a formation you can rotate dragging the cursor and you can quickly send each one of them in different direction with ONE click.


There are several problems with the Larian solution:

- it's slower to use properly when precision is required.
- it's less accurate.
- it's a mess that turns into a comedic skit with idiots running randomly anywhere in any situation where you need to give everyone QUICK instructions on where to position.
- that mess can be deadly when there are combat triggers and/or traps around.

I can't honestly think of a single excuse to defend this "innovative" system they introduced since DOS1 in comparison with the above-mentioned titles.

I have to ask my fellows forum dwelllers: is there ANYONE who actually likes the Larian system the most? And if that's the case can that good soul (may the gods have mercy on him) tell us WHY?




Yes I agree, it becomes hard work. For example I've carefully managed to guide my characters around say some pesky vines, and then I click on another character and all the characters run back towards that character straight back into the bloody vines! I know I can use turn based mode, but it's hard work for how often you have to do this sort of thing.

Put simply you should be able to control where your characters stand without any question or doubt, not have directing be one of the harder mechanics of the game that often leads me to having to over rest/eat after one of my characters clumsily runs back into a trap that the whole party knows is there
Originally Posted by Bufotenina
I think the problem is that Larian has made its brand with the motor it used for the DOS, wich had a really awfull movement system both with the controller (I play DOS on PS4) and the mouse-keyboard.

Still they made their name with those two games and so they landed the big contract: to make the third act of a D & D based rpg that is considered a milestone in such games, the 3rd chapter of Baldur's Gate.

Obviously they're going to exploit the motor they used in the games that became their brand. I just hope they'll take account of the criticism (is annoying to have to make jump the characters one by one et so on) and try to make the movements more smooth and that the story will be engaging like that of the Baldur's Gate of the days gone or the two DOS.

The bigger game, with the bigger budget is their opportunity to make that "motor" better. To improve systems they didn't have the resources to do right the first time(s) around.
Larian themselves straight up said BG3 is a AAA game with a AAA budget, and they staffed up and expanded their studio to make it. There's no excuse not to improve their tech where it's weak, and it's weak in the area of party controls.
Originally Posted by Dangerman33
[quote=Tuco] and then I click on another character and all the characters run back towards that character straight back into the bloody vines!


That is annoying, but just to be sure, you know that you can (and must, in this case) unlink your party members, right?

Originally Posted by Dangerman33
[quote=Tuco] ...after one of my characters clumsily runs back into a trap...


Good point. Sigh. Characters should avoid damage if there is a path that achieves that.

To the general point of the OP: DA:O has already been mentioned. In exploration mode, I really really like to navigate one character via WASD from the over the shoulder perspective (you can zoom out to the top down perspective at any time and back to the 3rd person over the shoulder one), with or without the party following. It is immersive.

Oh, and BTW, DA:O also had fog of war. Scouting was an important part of exploration and gameplay, you could not just move your camera to the back of a room or around the corner of a dungeon to check if some wizard was in an ambush position.
I seriously doubt there's ANY sort of engine limitation preventing the implementation of better controls, to be perfectly honest.
The engine is one of the most solid things about their recent products.
Yeh, using "the engine" as some sort of argument point is always misleveraged.

the engine they built DOS2 on was very solid, but not every game needs to use the same mechanics leveraged by the engine.

they COULD change things.

they chose not to.
I just watched how Solasta does it and we basically need that. It's so precise and smooth like butter.
+1 to the OP. Larian, I love your games
Originally Posted by Peranor
Originally Posted by Traycor
There seems to be a strange notion that fans of the BG series would know or care how controls are handled in the D:OS series. I've never played D:OS, and I have no intention of doing so. If you're going for the big time by reaching for BG3, the fans of that series should be heavily considered with the controls.



I've played both D:OS 1 and 2. And while I like them both very much I'l tell you right away that I didn't like them because of their control scheme, I liked them in spite of their control scheme smile


This.
Originally Posted by Riandor
There are many issues with the system as it stands and it seems obvious that it at heart has a MP feel to it as individually the characters are fine right, by and large.


- Un-Link/Re-Link All
There are times the game wants you to use TB individual commands, but then it should make doing that convenient and easy. Step 1 is to allow us to unlink or relink Everyone at will, rather than just by dragging individuals.





I think a lot of this issues that have been brought up are valid, but I don't think they require a radical overhaul of the system, but PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, can we at least get this?

I'm sure the pathing issues are things they are already working on, as well as some tweaks, but I really hate the chaining/unchaining mechanic, and if they want to keep it, a single button toggle to chain/unchain all nearby party members would alleviate so much of the frustration (at least for me)


Originally Posted by Judex
[quote=Riandor]
I think a lot of this issues that have been brought up are valid, but I don't think they require a radical overhaul of the system, but PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, can we at least get this?

I still think this would be just a weak workaround circumventing the real issue (making a bad system vaguely more bearable instead of replacing it with a better one) but yeah, I've already said more than once that this would be already a significant quality of life improvement.


Quote
I'm sure the pathing issues are things they are already working on, as well as some tweaks, but I really hate the chaining/unchaining mechanic, and if they want to keep it, a single button toggle to chain/unchain all nearby party members would alleviate so much of the frustration (at least for me)

I'm honestly not that exceedingly concerned with "pathing issues". I'm not sure how you other people play, but personally I'm rarely sending my characters particularly far away with a single click.
I'd trade "perfect automated pathing" with simple controls that just make me giving orders pleasant and efficient enough any day.

On a side note, I'm kicking myself for not realizing this first, but if you are like me here's a tip that can be a lifechanger in the current build: you can burn vine traps with the firebolt cantrip instead of trying to walk on eggshells around those fuckers.



+1 game needs party formation at least
Originally Posted by Dangerman33

Yes I agree, it becomes hard work. For example I've carefully managed to guide my characters around say some pesky vines, and then I click on another character and all the characters run back towards that character straight back into the bloody vines! I know I can use turn based mode, but it's hard work for how often you have to do this sort of thing.

Put simply you should be able to control where your characters stand without any question or doubt, not have directing be one of the harder mechanics of the game that often leads me to having to over rest/eat after one of my characters clumsily runs back into a trap that the whole party knows is there



Yeah, I absolutley hate when that happens. And the fact that you have to "unchain" your characters or even switch to turned based mode simply to manage and avoid something trivial like that only highlight how truly messed up and ass-backwards the controls are.
Originally Posted by cgexile
I just watched how Solasta does it and we basically need that. It's so precise and smooth like butter.


That's just how old fasion crpg hand party controls, bg2, iwd, dao and etc. and +1
Propably the reason party control is done in such an annoying way is the console and playing via controler there. I see no easy way to make the old (and way better ) controls handled by the controlers. At least there should be a possibility for the PC version to work as the way more comfortable party control as in most other games.

Originally Posted by Iviene
Propably the reason party control is done in such an annoying way is the console and playing via controler there. I see no easy way to make the old (and way better ) controls handled by the controlers. At least there should be a possibility for the PC version to work as the way more comfortable party control as in most other games.

I don't think planning for controller support here is the issue. Recent games like Pillars of Eternity and Pathfinder Kingmaker have controller support and they do not have the issues that BG3 does. Diablo 3 on consoles works even better than mouse and keyboard, IMO. Plus the enhanced editions of the Infinity Engine games added controller support on console and they play wonderfully (even the touch screen support on tablets is pretty good).

I think it's a Larian problem where they created a control scheme that simply does not work as well as other established CRPGs and they're sticking to it just because it's the system they created. They need to learn to "kill their darlings" for the good of the game.
Originally Posted by KingNothing69
Originally Posted by Iviene
Propably the reason party control is done in such an annoying way is the console and playing via controler there. I see no easy way to make the old (and way better ) controls handled by the controlers. At least there should be a possibility for the PC version to work as the way more comfortable party control as in most other games.

I don't think planning for controller support here is the issue. Recent games like Pillars of Eternity and Pathfinder Kingmaker have controller support and they do not have the issues that BG3 does. Diablo 3 on consoles works even better than mouse and keyboard, IMO. Plus the enhanced editions of the Infinity Engine games added controller support on console and they play wonderfully (even the touch screen support on tablets is pretty good).

I think it's a Larian problem where they created a control scheme that simply does not work as well as other established CRPGs and they're sticking to it just because it's the system they created. They need to learn to "kill their darlings" for the good of the game.

I don't think any game designers good enough to make CRPGs as loved as DoS1 and 2 are would ever look at those games' weird jank-*** controls and think, "Yes, this is a better solution than the system almost every CRPG has used for the last 20 years. We've reinvented the wheel."

I think it has to be a technical limitation of their engine that only one character can ever be selected at a time, and Larian designed the controls around it.
If that IS the case, all I've got to say is that Larian told us BG3 was a AAA game, with a AAA budget, and they hired up to build it. A AAA game dev would update their tech so it didn't cause problems that could only be solved with bad game design.
Implementing a send everything to camp button and item multiselection must also be insanely hard and "experimental" for a 2020 PC game. Don't forget this is a game that can't even pause in ESC menu screen. Definitely AAA vibes.
Originally Posted by Mogan
s, this is a better solution than the system almost every CRPG has used for the last 20 years. We've reinvented the wheel."

I think it has to be a technical limitation of their engine that only one character can ever be selected at a time, and Larian designed the controls around it.
If that IS the case, all I've got to say is that Larian told us BG3 was a AAA game, with a AAA budget, and they hired up to build it. A AAA game dev would update their tech so it didn't cause problems that could only be solved with bad game design.

I don't buy the "engine limitation" excuse for a single second.
And since I started this thread I even took my time to replay across the entire early access build specifically to check where terrain conformation would make the use of RTS-like controls a problem (at least, more a problem than it already is) and found virtually none.
There are of course occasional "choke points" where the player will be required to do some minor micro management instead of just moving the full party in formation... But then again that's true even with the current system, which is also far less suited to that purpose.

Quite frankly I think that if Larian won't address this issue is because they just don't want to, because they are too stubborn about the alleged merit of their own Frankenstein creature and, as KingNothing said, they don't want to "kill their own darling".
Not because they are facing any meaningful technical limitation.

Originally Posted by Tuco
Quite frankly I think that if Larian won't address this issue is because they just don't want to, because they are too stubborn about the alleged merit of their own Frankenstein creature and, as KingNothing said, they don't want to "kill their own darling".
Not because they are facing any meaningful technical limitation.


True... one might think that, at some point, the "limitations" of their engine might have reached a point where they though: We just can't do this title justice with our tech... but apparently not. The game is definitely worse of for that. Clunky party movement, no formations, no day/night cycle, no optional RTWP, maybe even the horrendous inventory,... all those seam to be due to what the engine is capable of.
I'm still playing the game and this mecanic is really really boring.

There are plenty of undesired movement. Sometimes it's only annoying or visually immersion breaking... But sometimes it's really a problem.

The chain/unchain mecanic is slow, your portraits are always moving, sometimes it didn't work, and it's really hard to control your characters.

I'd like being able to play unchained all the time but it's obviously not confortable atm. So I'm playing with chained characters, and it's not really better.

I really really hope they'll change their mind about that. I don't think a single person would miss this system.
Originally Posted by Maximuuus


I really really hope they'll change their mind about that. I don't think a single person would miss this system.


Since you mention it, funny sidenote: I posted a recap of this entire discussion on reddit (credit to our user Isaac Springsong for writing down the summary, that I imagine he will soon post even here in the new section):
https://old.reddit.com/r/BaldursGat..._control_is_a_mess_and_what_can_be_done/

Guess what? The feature is every bit as popular there as it is on this forum.
It seems also to be almost universally loathed on the Steam discussion boards.

I know they absolutely refrain from posting on their own forum, but Jesus Christ if I wouldn't be curious to listen with what reasoning the developers defend this system, no matter how overwhelmingly unpopular it is regardless of who you ask.


Originally Posted by JDCrenton
Implementing a send everything to camp button and item multiselection must also be insanely hard and "experimental" for a 2020 PC game. Don't forget this is a game that can't even pause in ESC menu screen. Definitely AAA vibes.

But that's not DnD. There's no "send everything to camp" option in 5e rules. It's amazing how fast you'll sweep that argument under the carpet, isn't it?
Originally Posted by robertthebard
Originally Posted by JDCrenton
Implementing a send everything to camp button and item multiselection must also be insanely hard and "experimental" for a 2020 PC game. Don't forget this is a game that can't even pause in ESC menu screen. Definitely AAA vibes.

But that's not DnD. There's no "send everything to camp" option in 5e rules. It's amazing how fast you'll sweep that argument under the carpet, isn't it?


Oh please, straw is flying everywhere now... that has nothing to do with the rules system that governs character/world interactions, we're talking modern day video game conveniences, that's like complaining the game's UI doesn't adhere to pen an paper rules. If you wanna go at it like that, then the whole camp machanic is BS to begin with... and it wouldn't be the only one.
Originally Posted by robertthebard
Originally Posted by JDCrenton
Implementing a send everything to camp button and item multiselection must also be insanely hard and "experimental" for a 2020 PC game. Don't forget this is a game that can't even pause in ESC menu screen. Definitely AAA vibes.

But that's not DnD. There's no "send everything to camp" option in 5e rules. It's amazing how fast you'll sweep that argument under the carpet, isn't it?


I've been reading all your posts and all you do is try and deflect any criticism to the game like a Good Larian Boy. So i don't really bother addressing anything you say since it's completely pointless. At least you try. I don't know how that mechanic would affect anyone at all tbh when it could also be just a toggable. But i can't really remove all the surface stuff and other gimmicky larian features just like that right, when the core gameplay is built around it?
I still hope they will add WASD control with a third person camera like in DA.
Originally Posted by Rhobar121
I still hope they will add WASD control with a third person camera like in DA.

Uh, I mean, if they can do it decently that's fine, but personally I don't really give a shit about a third person camera.
I'd take decent "isometric" controls and an improved top down camera everyday, given a choice.
Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by Rhobar121
I still hope they will add WASD control with a third person camera like in DA.

Uh, I mean, if they can do it decently that's fine, but personally I don't really give a shit about a third person camera.
I'd take decent "isometric" controls and an improved top down camera everyday, given a choice.


This should fix camera issues especially when you enter to place with more than 1 floor.
This needs to be added to the feedback compendium.
Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by Maximuuus


I really really hope they'll change their mind about that. I don't think a single person would miss this system.


Since you mention it, funny sidenote: I posted a recap of this entire discussion on reddit (credit to our user Isaac Springsong for writing down the summary, that I imagine he will soon post even here in the new section):
https://old.reddit.com/r/BaldursGat..._control_is_a_mess_and_what_can_be_done/

Guess what? The feature is every bit as popular there as it is on this forum.
It seems also to be almost universally loathed on the Steam discussion boards.

I know they absolutely refrain from posting on their own forum, but Jesus Christ if I wouldn't be curious to listen with what reasoning the developers defend this system, no matter how overwhelmingly unpopular it is regardless of who you ask.




Interesting. The community seldom agree on things. But the utterly worthless control scheme seems to be something we all can agree on smile (well, except from the few occasional fanboys in denial)
Surely Larian can't just ignore this topic now. I'm sure they can choose to not change anything, but if so then they at least have to provide some reasoning as to why.

Originally Posted by Albi
This needs to be added to the feedback compendium.



Yes it really needs to be added there
Originally Posted by Tuco
Sorry for the blunt title, I tried a more polite "Honest feedback: I don't like the way Larian defaults control of the whole party" but I ran out of characters half way through the sentence.

Aaaanyway, back to the topic.

This control based on the position of a single character with all companions defaulting on auto-follow is genuinely cumbersome when you compare it to pretty much any other RPG in the same subgenre: the old BG games, Torment, Icewind Dale, Temple of Elemental Evil, Pillars of Eternity, Pathfinder, etc., where you simply cliclck and drag to select multiple characters, keep them in a formation you can rotate dragging the cursor and you can quickly send each one of them in different direction with ONE click.


There are several problems with the Larian solution:

- it's slower to use properly when precision is required.
- it's less accurate.
- it's a mess that turns into a comedic skit with idiots running randomly anywhere in any situation where you need to give everyone QUICK instructions on where to position.
- that mess can be deadly when there are combat triggers and/or traps around.

I can't honestly think of a single excuse to defend this "innovative" system they introduced since DOS1 in comparison with the above-mentioned titles.

I have to ask my fellows forum dwelllers: is there ANYONE who actually likes the Larian system the most? And if that's the case can that good soul (may the gods have mercy on him) tell us WHY?


I find it awkward at best. Including the silly system of "chain" to select the group within the party, which is an heritage of D:OS and that I've hated since the beginning for being tedious and clumsy.
I completely agree with the OP. Formations and better selections would be so much better than this.
The amount of times Gale has ambled in front of my character and started fights is frustrating
Originally Posted by Albi
This needs to be added to the feedback compendium.

I've been told that it was being added sometime ago.

Originally Posted by Peranor


Interesting. The community seldom agree on things. But the utterly worthless control scheme seems to be something we all can agree on smile (well, except from the few occasional fanboys in denial)
Surely Larian can't just ignore this topic now. I'm sure they can choose to not change anything, but if so then they at least have to provide some reasoning as to why.

It's fascinating, really.I guess that given how much I fiercely dislike this control scheme this shouldn't surprise me as much, but the thing is that when it comes to a community opinions, they always tend to be split, at least to some minimal extent.
You could probably find even people willing to argue in favor of giving Astarion's the Ronald McDonald outfit as a default, and yet it seems almost impossible to cross someone genuinely willing to praise this system.

The closest you'll get is some wishy-washy guy playing devil's advocate about the fact that MAYBE one day, with a certain amount of convoluted workaround, it COULD not suck this much. Eventually.
Bonus points for the defeatist attitude "It sucks but Larian is never going to change it anyway" or the Captain Concern "B-but it could require a certain amount of work to fix it, does anyone think of the poor devs?"
There is nothing wrong with playing devil’s advocate and trying to see things from the other side to at least try and understand.

I like your opinions Tuco, I usually agree with most of your original points, but I equally don’t mind trying to discuss compromises.
Originally Posted by Riandor
There is nothing wrong with playing devil’s advocate and trying to see things from the other side to at least try and understand.

Attempting to defend awful design choices without even a decent argument about what could be good about them, just for the sake of "offering an opposing voice", doesn't really do anyone any favor.
Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by Riandor
There is nothing wrong with playing devil’s advocate and trying to see things from the other side to at least try and understand.

Attempting to defend awful design choices without even a decent argument about what could be good about them, just for the sake of "offering an opposing voice", doesn't really do anyone any favor.

I’m not defending anything.
It’s a system that at least on pc doesn’t hold up, I’ve always said as such. However, given I don’t work for Larian and don’t know official reasons, I simply take the stand point of “they must have their reasons, so IF it isn’t going to be scrapped, what else could be done?”

I’ve already given my proper preference, but there’s equally little benefit of filling a thread with “Larian’s current solution sucks EOM.” Over and over.

The point of discussion and debate is to look at small changes through to extreme changes and provide food for thought. There is no one correct answer, even on this topic.
As things stands right now:

-Party movement
SOLASTA x10
-Engaging turnbased detailed 5e gameplay
SOLASTA
-Random generated characters are voice acted and having believable story driven conversations with each other and it works flawlessly and fluidly
SOLASTA
-Day/night cycles, darkness rules, live dice rolls, cool little details from P&P
SOLASTA


-Graphics/UI/Sound effects
BG3...but....
-Character creation/content
BG3...for now...
-Cringy unlikable companions
BG3 (depends how old you are...)
-SHMS [Snowflake hardcore multiracial sex]
BG3
-Epic storyline
BG3 or SOLASTA (both are in EA)
Yeah, Solasta's party movement currently IS better than BG3 (talk about setting the bar low...) but it seems weird to me to point it as a virtuous example when it's actually still quite shitty and there are countless games doing better than both.

You don't even need to stick to RPGs, specifically. I already mentioned Shogun Shadow Tactics and/or Desperados 3 as examples of games that manage multiple characters control leagues better.
I've started playing the Pathfinder Wrath of the Righteous alpha. Besides having much more fun with the character creator, it was a relief to play with logical keyboard and mouse controls and party selection. The camera feels much friendlier as well. Solasta isn't the only RPG from a smaller development team doing certain things better than BG3 right now. 😜
Originally Posted by KingNothing69
I've started playing the Pathfinder Wrath of the Righteous alpha. Besides having much more fun with the character creator, it was a relief to play with logical keyboard and mouse controls and party selection. The camera feels much friendlier as well. Solasta isn't the only RPG from a smaller development team doing certain things better than BG3 right now. 😜

I'll ask again, since when another user mentioned I couldn't get an answer: is there currently a way to buy your way into the alpha?
Yes, it was a $15 add-on.
The system would not be so tragic if you could give orders.
Originally Posted by KingNothing69
I've started playing the Pathfinder Wrath of the Righteous alpha. Besides having much more fun with the character creator, it was a relief to play with logical keyboard and mouse controls and party selection. The camera feels much friendlier as well. Solasta isn't the only RPG from a smaller development team doing certain things better than BG3 right now. 😜

Isn't that the same as most CRPG, NWN1/2, Solasta, ...? A simple click to select just one character, SHIFT to add, the mouse can draw a rectange to include what's inside.
It's simple, intuitive, much easier and faster than the Larian's way. No need to make it more complicated smile


Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by KingNothing69
I've started playing the Pathfinder Wrath of the Righteous alpha. Besides having much more fun with the character creator, it was a relief to play with logical keyboard and mouse controls and party selection. The camera feels much friendlier as well. Solasta isn't the only RPG from a smaller development team doing certain things better than BG3 right now. 😜

I'll ask again, since when another user mentioned I couldn't get an answer: is there currently a way to buy your way into the alpha?

Originally Posted by KingNothing69

Yeah, found that pretty funny that they'd make pay to help them test. It's even worse than the BG3 deal.
Originally Posted by KingNothing69


OT



Man, I impulse-bought this anticipating to waste some hours on it but I didn't realize that the turn-based mode wasn't implemented in alpha yet.

I'm not enjoying the RtwP combat a single bit.
Even in Kingmaker the turn-based mod was the thing that made me finally enjoy the game after three failed attempts to get into it.

And now I'll stop dragging my own thread into a prolonged off-topic. Sorry.

Originally Posted by Redglyph
Originally Posted by KingNothing69
I've started playing the Pathfinder Wrath of the Righteous alpha. Besides having much more fun with the character creator, it was a relief to play with logical keyboard and mouse controls and party selection. The camera feels much friendlier as well. Solasta isn't the only RPG from a smaller development team doing certain things better than BG3 right now. 😜

Isn't that the same as most CRPG, NWN1/2, Solasta, ...? A simple click to select just one character, SHIFT to add, the mouse can draw a rectange to include what's inside.
It's simple, intuitive, much easier and faster than the Larian's way. No need to make it more complicated smile


Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by KingNothing69
I've started playing the Pathfinder Wrath of the Righteous alpha. Besides having much more fun with the character creator, it was a relief to play with logical keyboard and mouse controls and party selection. The camera feels much friendlier as well. Solasta isn't the only RPG from a smaller development team doing certain things better than BG3 right now. 😜

I'll ask again, since when another user mentioned I couldn't get an answer: is there currently a way to buy your way into the alpha?

Originally Posted by KingNothing69

Yeah, found that pretty funny that they'd make pay to help them test. It's even worse than the BG3 deal.


Not that I want to defend the system, before Tuco chastises me again ;-) but logical “keyboard” controls (or lack of) are from what I can tell, the crux of the design plan.

All the things I would like to see change all revolve around these very concepts these other games have, but that takes the system further away from being controller friendly.

Thus the proper response in our minds would be to have separate control systems based upon system, but I’m. It convinced Larian want to go down this path. Still, it’s EA let’s hope it changes.
I doubt I can give any contribute at all after 12 pages of posts, but hey, here I am.
I understand the basic reasoning behind this system, it was built thinking of a party of four friends playing the game together, with each one individually controlling ONE character. This system allow the maximum degree of freedom if you control just ONE character but becomes sub-par as soon as even one player is forced to use more that ONE at a time.
Since I suspect the game is going to be played by a full party of four people just a fraction of the times, this means the current system will results flawed most of the them.

It was always awful, both in DOS and DOS2, but at least you didn't have to jump frequently. Now you have to, and it would not be a problem if not for this system.

If I want to jump over a broken section of a bridge I must, in sequence:
1) Taking out of the chain every character, otherwise those linked together will occupy all the avaiable landing space on the other side trying to reach me;
2) Find a valid spot to jump, even more time consuming for low-STR characters;
3) Make the jump;
4) Move away in order to make room for another one to jump;
5) Repeat the above for each character;
6) Link them back together.

It's just tedious, not to mention all the problems related to the stealth mechanic.

I understand Larian wants to innovate the genre, and they did in many aspects, but this doesn't mean to get rid of well established mechanics just for the sake of it. Even because everyone complained about this since DOS, so it shouldn't be news for them!
Originally Posted by Riandor


Not that I want to defend the system, before Tuco chastises me again ;-) but logical “keyboard” controls (or lack of) are from what I can tell, the crux of the design plan.

All the things I would like to see change all revolve around these very concepts these other games have, but that takes the system further away from being controller friendly.

Thus the proper response in our minds would be to have separate control systems based upon system, but I’m. It convinced Larian want to go down this path. Still, it’s EA let’s hope it changes.


Lots of PC games handles two different control schemens without problem though. One for mose keyboard and one for controller. Changing the mouse keyboard controls in to something more similar to the old BG games doesnt mean that the control scheme for the controller needs to be changed in to that as well.
Oh it’s totally doable, of course it is.
My point I suppose is more that there is a whole list of improvements on top of just the chain vs select argument. Like handling spell casting, chatting, etc... etc...

Once you start, then I think you would end up with an overhaul just for PC, and for the record, I’m all for that. I’m just not sure Larian are.
Originally Posted by Riandor
Oh it’s totally doable, of course it is.
My point I suppose is more that there is a whole list of improvements on top of just the chain vs select argument. Like handling spell casting, chatting, etc... etc...

Once you start, then I think you would end up with an overhaul just for PC, and for the record, I’m all for that. I’m just not sure Larian are.

BG3's a PC only game right now. More importantly, Larian claims BG3 is a AAA game with a AAA budget, and they staffed up to build it. If their tech has been weak for two previous games now, and those projects were too small to afford improving it, now's their chance. If the tiny dev team building Solasta can figure out controls and UI that work way better than BG3's, there's really no excuse for Larian to continue using this awkward, clunky system they've stuck with for over six years now. And there's definitely no excuse for them to hamstring their primary launch platform for the sake of ports that may come later.
The chain/unchain thing is painfully awful. It's like they're stuck together with duct tape and you have to aggressively rip them apart because the mechanic itself feels so unfinished. It's a nightmare to change the character order, it's like trying to stack magnets with their poles reversed. And it did that throughout D:OS as well, so it's not something I expect to change post-EA. I vastly prefer having a 'select all' hotkey like in the IE games. It's so much smoother and doesn't require constant fiddling around.
Originally Posted by Clawfoot
It's a nightmare to change the character order, it's like trying to stack magnets with their poles reversed.


I have to say this a fitting description. That's exactly how it feels.
Then again, "party order" is only the tip of the iceberg when it comes to issues tied to this control scheme, so it's not like solving this would make it overall particularly likable anyway.
Originally Posted by Riandor


Once you start, then I think you would end up with an overhaul just for PC, and for the record, I’m all for that. I’m just not sure Larian are.



I truly hope they are though
Even not having read the whole thread, i have to agree. I was trying to hide a character before a fight to make him sneak attack from stealth. So i unchained him from the party to move and hide him. He did not even join the fight and when i sneaked in he joined the fight but was no longer stealthed.
The party/character management in and out of combat needs some serious work.
Originally Posted by Clawfoot
The chain/unchain thing is painfully awful. It's like they're stuck together with duct tape and you have to aggressively rip them apart because the mechanic itself feels so unfinished. It's a nightmare to change the character order, it's like trying to stack magnets with their poles reversed. And it did that throughout D:OS as well, so it's not something I expect to change post-EA. I vastly prefer having a 'select all' hotkey like in the IE games. It's so much smoother and doesn't require constant fiddling around.


+1
Yeah, miss the formation thing that DOS 2 had
Originally Posted by Ole Draco
Yeah, miss the formation thing that DOS 2 had


Yeah... Well. No.
Of all the formation systems I experienced across several games, the one used in DOS 2 is the one I "miss" the least.
I was hoping to hear something, anything from Larian about this when I read the patch notes today. But alas...
Yeah this week's Larian update was underwhelming. It's good to see bug fixes, but I'm much more interested in the team's plans to fix their game and make it better than I am on seeing demographics for who's banging who.
An improvement could include several steps,
- Remove this magnetic chain system, which is awkward, and replace it with the proved system that is describe earlier and which is used everywhere else.
- More than one sub-group is not necessary, really.
- Each character should see where the next destination is, and wait until the character who should be in front, is in front, before starting to move (instead of moving back and forths to stay behind the character who should be in front, that's what generates those cahotic situations).
- Decide whether characters that are not in the group spawn spontaneously back into it when entering a new area, or are left behind.
- Possibly add a formation option like in Pathfinder, to allow different group formations depending on the situation (V, column, abreast, ...). But it's rare I'm using it, I don't think it's necessary.

Originally Posted by KingNothing69
Yeah this week's Larian update was underwhelming. It's good to see bug fixes, but I'm much more interested in the team's plans to fix their game and make it better than I am on seeing demographics for who's banging who.

I must say I don't care much about all this romance stuff, it's really overdone, and it feels artificial and unnecessary. It's nice there are many (other) interactions between the party members though, that adds to the story which is not much developed otherwise. Other RPGs like PoE put more accent on the story itself, to each its own I guess. As long as there's something else than fights (and banging), it's nice to have variety and some depth to the game.
Originally Posted by Redglyph
An improvement could include several steps,
- Remove this magnetic chain system, which is awkward, and replace it with the proved system that is describe earlier and which is used everywhere else.
- More than one sub-group is not necessary, really.
- Each character should see where the next destination is, and wait until the character who should be in front, is in front, before starting to move (instead of moving back and forths to stay behind the character who should be in front, that's what generates those cahotic situations).
- Decide whether characters that are not in the group spawn spontaneously back into it when entering a new area, or are left behind.
- Possibly add a formation option like in Pathfinder, to allow different group formations depending on the situation (V, column, abreast, ...). But it's rare I'm using it, I don't think it's necessary.

Originally Posted by KingNothing69
Yeah this week's Larian update was underwhelming. It's good to see bug fixes, but I'm much more interested in the team's plans to fix their game and make it better than I am on seeing demographics for who's banging who.

I must say I don't care much about all this romance stuff, it's really overdone, and it feels artificial and unnecessary. It's nice there are many (other) interactions between the party members though, that adds to the story which is not much developed otherwise. Other RPGs like PoE put more accent on the story itself, to each its own I guess. As long as there's something else than fights (and banging), it's nice to have variety and some depth to the game.


Maybe I'm missing some nuance here, because your explanation is a bit convoluted, but... aren't you essentially re-proposing what most of us have been asking since the beginning of the thread (and before)?
Originally Posted by Tuco
Maybe I'm missing some nuance here, because your explanation is a bit convoluted, but... aren't you essentially re-proposing what most of us have been asking since the beginning of the thread (and before)?


Isn't everyone re-proposing what was said before? As you said elsewhere, that's what forums do wink I had already proposed that in another thread a few weeks ago, and so did others. Since Larian doesn't respond or even tag the threads, and since we don't know whether they read them or not, I guess this repeating will go on for a while.

But yes, just trying to summarize the different points in one post, really (and responding to your original question in the first post). It's not convoluted.
Originally Posted by Redglyph

Isn't everyone re-proposing what was said before?

Yeah, but they didn't come in the thread saying basically something among the lines of "What if we do this instead?" just to list the exact same thing.
Which is the part that had me confused. grin

Quote
It's not convoluted.

I think you misunderstood me there.
What I found a bit... convoluted was some of the wording you chose to describe the controls, not the idea in itself.
Like, your last two points for instance could be summarized with "the party should move in formation", which once again is exactly what any other RTS or game of this type does.
Originally Posted by Tuco
What I found a bit... convoluted was some of the wording you chose to describe the controls, not the idea in itself.
Like, your last two points for instance could be summarized with "the party should move in formation", which once again is exactly what any other RTS or game of this type does.


Only the last point is about formation, and by that I mean the relative position of each character within the group. Some games allow to change it (V, column, and so on are the examples I gave, and are typical combat formations). So yes, the party should move in formation, that's for granted, no need to mention it. Should we be able to change the formation, I'm not sure.

The point before last is not about formation, it's about the group, I thought the description was clear but to elaborate: in some games, when one of the group changes area, or even passes some trigger, the other characters respawn too and the group counts all the characters again. For example in Kingmaker, when you don't select everyone and enter a cave, everyone spawns in the cave nevertheless. I'm not sure how Larian does that in BG3 anymore, in D:OS2 it wasn't the case, sub-groups remained at their respective locations, it feels more realistic.

The third item is about how characters move. When you select another character in Larian games, he/she becomes the "leader of formation" and all other characters do crazy stuff, running all over the place to fall back into the new formation. Doing so usually have them walk into fire, trigger traps and all sort of nonsense, it's obviously not what the player wants. So they should stay still when the selection changes.


Anyway, scratch that. To keep it simple, I just hate how they do it right now with the chain gizmo because it's not easy to manipulate, it's unnecessary, and leads to side-effects like the characters running in all directions when the group leader changes. With the shift-select all other games offer, it's simple, there's no "leader", and it's intuitive.
You were pretty spot on with your tittle smirk

There does need to be a formation system, but certainly not one like DOS2. It would be nice to be able to select how my characters run along, in a straight line or some other formation (of course that is not a solution to pathing by itself).

Sometimes a character takes a random path and I have to quickly try to select the correct F key, and sometimes the character just doesn't respond and is dead set on running right at an enemy to start combat or run into a trap.

It doesn't help that Larian decided to put traps/vines/poison clouds on a lot of locations. The vines so far have been the worst for me.

The worst instance by far was at the wet lands were Kagha was suppose to have a meeting by the tree with Astarion in my party, trying to keep him away from vines and water at the same time. Absolutely dreadful.
Originally Posted by Dogmatis
You were pretty spot on with your title smirk

Well, typo aside.
But by the time I noticed it it was already too late to edit it.

By the way, I just finished play the hag questline again and I swear that passing that idiotic part with the poison traps and platforms, with your companions running back and forth over the poison clouds every time you try to swap control between them (or in alternative asking you to pass the entire section with one character at the time) never stops being absolutely fucking annoying at best, when not downright infuriating.


Agree to agree. Chain/unchain is the worst system in any party-based RPG. Just do it like every other game, please?
Yes, I agree to all that was said before... even if you managed to unchain your party members, you have a chance to accidently give silly orders while picking one ore the other. Had the case e.g., that I made my group jump one after the other over a fire and three were done already. While trying to pick the remaining member, the 3rd in row turn round to walk back and die... Or you jump with the leading character and the others pick a detour instead of a jump and run into the next group or trap.

Anyway... just try once to position three characters in favourable positions before kicking of the fight with the last remaining member. There is a more than big chance that you either mess up the positioning because of the complicated handling or that you realize that you're to far of to join the fight in reasonable time in the end.
Body blocking by party members needs to go.

I would like to see them use the ghost animation (like currently appears now with movement preview) if characters have to pass through each other.

This would be preferable to showing PCs walk through each other with clipping of the full models and such.

When a PC enters another PC's space for movement, it would be cool if the active selected PC had their normal animations and the inactive PC who's space is being passed-through went ghost animation.

This would eliminate a lot of pathing problems and jump fails right there just by ditching the body block within the party.

Blocking for hostiles and neutrals is fine, but friendlies it would be good to handle the same way as PCs. As long as we aren't ending the turn inside another characters circle of space, they should just kinda phase through to the spot where we want them if its within movement range.

Probably the top QoL feature for me, along with targeting from portraits, and better spellcasting/hotbar UI.

^Targeting from portraits is another big one.

When it comes to UI and party controls, I think BG3's problem is that Larian hasn't designed them for a D&D CRPG, they've just tried to adapt the UI and controls from Original Sin, and those aren't adequate. They need to go back to the drawing board on this stuff and re-design after looking at how other D&D and D&D adjacent CRPGs have have handled turning D&D into a playable, understandable video game. Players need all the information that would be on their tabletop character sheet surfaced and at their fingertips with breakdowns for folks who aren't familiar with 5e. They also need to be able to quickly and easily manage a party of four characters, both moving them around the map and sorting/using their various abilities and items.
This whole game feels like a D&D mod for Original Sin 2, not a game designed from the ground up to be Baldur's Gate 3.
Targeting from portraits is something that Larina did in DOS 2. I'm sure it will come here as well.
That's arguably the least of my concerns about future controls, frankly.
I put this issue at the top of my list of feedback requests.
Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
I put this issue at the top of my list of feedback requests.



Yeah, if they're going to listen to just one complaint when it comes to game mechanics I hope it's this one.
Originally Posted by Peranor
Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
I put this issue at the top of my list of feedback requests.



Yeah, if they're going to listen to just one complaint when it comes to game mechanics I hope it's this one.

We should keep bumping this topic then. There's virtually no disagreement that the party controls are bad, so let's keep this under Larian's nose.
Removing the body block within the party I think is really the first and easiest step they could take to eliminate half the problems. It would make it so we aren't totally reliant on a jump action, just to path a PC to a spot that would otherwise be within the movement range were it not for other party member's body blocking. Clicking a spot on the map the PC should move the shortest distance possible, since according to the rules they can pass through another PC's space, as long as they aren't ending their movement within that space. This should apply outside of combat and within combat too. Right now movement in combat is waisted trying to run around other PCs, or trying to reach the specific spot selected on ground which then shows as unreachable or only jump to reach because of the body block. Kind of silly to imagine a melee with medieval weapons where everyone has to stay outside of each other's person space at all times. Like how would that work in the real lol?

Next step would be to just prevent the other PCs from shifting all over the place when pathing movement outside of combat. Half of this jogging around in circles from the unselected PCs I think would disappear once the body block within the party was nixed. Another complimentary feature would be a quick toggle to auto unchain via a button, instead of this awkward drag and drop method. Outside of combat using unchaining or dragging off to try and position a party leader position is just very tedious.

Formations in a party of 4 are obviously somewhat less interesting than formations for a full party of 5/6, but even with 4 you still have a couple basics. These should at least include the wedge, the square, the T (which is basically an inverted wedge), a gamma type formation (similar to the T formation, but with one flank strengthened rather than the middle) and then just the straight line for walking in single file.
Basically these kinds of shapes...

△ ▯ T Γ I

The last would be particularly helpful for scouting, and for dungeon crawling where you only want 1 PC walking point due to possible traps, or combat encounters, or hazards on the ground etc.






Originally Posted by Black_Elk
Removing the body block within the party I think is really the first and easiest step they could take to eliminate half the problems

Can't really say I agree.
While body block shouldn't be there for allies (even tabletop rules claim players should be able to pass on a square occupied by an ally as far you don't stop there) this kind of workaround doesn't come even remotely close to address most of the other issues listed across this entire thread, with particular focus on the problems related on making group movement and more granular coordinate maneuvers quicker and more intuitive to put in practice.
Just to repeat my solution. Group - ungroup button. When the party is ungrouped everything happens individually, when everyone are connected everything happens for everyone. Sneaking, jumping, movement. Whatever.
Originally Posted by Surface R
Just to repeat my solution. Group - ungroup button. When the party is ungrouped everything happens individually, when everyone are connected everything happens for everyone. Sneaking, jumping, movement. Whatever.


This was suggested since the beginning of the thread (I suggested it myself as a bare-minimum alternative to a completely redesigned control scheme, which would be preferable) but only as a partial workaround.
Because it addresses only a general annoyance (having to group/ungroup characters individually) but not the core of the issue (1. being unable to select multiple units at once and to give them group commands).
Originally Posted by Tuco
Sorry for the blunt title, I tried a more polite "Honest feedback: I don't like the way Larian defaults control of the whole party" but I ran out of characters half way through the sentence.

Aaaanyway, back to the topic.

This control based on the position of a single character with all companions defaulting on auto-follow is genuinely cumbersome when you compare it to pretty much any other RPG in the same subgenre: the old BG games, Torment, Icewind Dale, Temple of Elemental Evil, Pillars of Eternity, Pathfinder, etc., where you simply cliclck and drag to select multiple characters, keep them in a formation you can rotate dragging the cursor and you can quickly send each one of them in different direction with ONE click.


There are several problems with the Larian solution:

- it's slower to use properly when precision is required.
- it's less accurate.
- it's a mess that turns into a comedic skit with idiots running randomly anywhere in any situation where you need to give everyone QUICK instructions on where to position.
- that mess can be deadly when there are combat triggers and/or traps around.

I can't honestly think of a single excuse to defend this "innovative" system they introduced since DOS1 in comparison with the above-mentioned titles.

I have to ask my fellows forum dwelllers: is there ANYONE who actually likes the Larian system the most? And if that's the case can that good soul (may the gods have mercy on him) tell us WHY?




I am with you, totally!
I dunno... seems to me the one click group all - everything done as a group from that single click on, would pretty much cover that functionality.

There aint no group commands in the game mechanics so if you mean being able to select two and issue a single command to both, that just doesn't exist.
And it didnt exist in originals either.

Once the fighting starts you issue orders to each character individually anyway.
Uh, yes, it DID exist in the originals, actually.
And in every other more recent title that borrowed the same RTS-styled control scheme.

You could absolutely select any arbitrary number of units in BG1, 2 etc and give to your selection generic commands (move on click, stop, attack, enter stealth, etc).

Both in and out of combat, given that the two modes weren’t even strictly distinct and shared the exact same controls.
No reason why you shouldnt also be able to do that in this scheme. Those are the very basic commands and needed relatively rarely. Most of the time you select individual characters and issue commands for them. I was thinking about anything more complicated which is individual for each character.
Just to throw in my 5c, I hate the chain follow system. Even if it would actually be smooth and easy to use, I would still hate the principles of it.

Classic BG controls are much better. Only selected characters move. Marquee select multiple characters. Most importantly a keybind for select all.

Add a follow toggle where unselected characters follow currently selected character(s) so we can still have this choice as well.

And add auto jump.
Adding my vote here. I just went through the Underdark and it was an awful experience trying to manage the party in some of the areas there. It's like the game is lacking basic functionality you get in other party-based cRPGs.
Originally Posted by ash elemental
Adding my vote here. I just went through the Underdark and it was an awful experience trying to manage the party in some of the areas there. It's like the game is lacking basic functionality you get in other party-based cRPGs.

Not just other party-based CRPGs, but other party-based CRPGs from 20+ years ago. It's ridiculous that Baldur's Gate 3 controls this poorly.
Originally Posted by ash elemental
Adding my vote here. I just went through the Underdark and it was an awful experience trying to manage the party in some of the areas there. It's like the game is lacking basic functionality you get in other party-based cRPGs.

There's a lot to like about the Underdark, but the mixture of terrible controls and terrible "super-deforming" camera made the experience a bit of a nightmare at times.
It could use some improvement, but it didn't ruin the game for me. I was still having a great time.
After playing through the burning inn again, yeah, I'm not a fan of the current control setup. I don't mind environmental hazards, but this just felt like I was fighting the interface, not the environment.
Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
It could use some improvement, but it didn't ruin the game for me. I was still having a great time.


True, but it's one of those bad things that can be fixed without firing the whole studio and rewriting the code.
KiSS, very old truth. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KISS_principle

quote from there, but the page explains it better "The KISS principle states that most systems work best if they are kept simple rather than made complicated; therefore, simplicity should be a key goal in design, and unnecessary complexity should be avoided." ^

"Leonardo da Vinci's "Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication", Shakespeare's "Brevity is the soul of wit", Mies Van Der Rohe's "Less is more", Bjarne Stroustrup's "Make Simple Tasks Simple!", or Antoine de Saint Exupéry's "It seems that perfection is reached not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away". Colin Chapman, the founder of Lotus Cars, urged his designers to "Simplify, then add lightness". Heath Robinson machines and Rube Goldberg's machines, intentionally overly-complex solutions to simple tasks or problems, are humorous examples of "non-KISS" solutions.

A variant – "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler" – is attributed to Albert Einstein, although this may be an editor's paraphrase of a lecture he gave"



Can it be fixed easily? I have no idea how hard it would be to change the control scheme. I want it to be changed, but maybe it's actually really difficult for some reason?
Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
Can it be fixed easily? I have no idea how hard it would be to change the control scheme. I want it to be changed, but maybe it's actually really difficult for some reason?

Well, if its' difficult they better start working on it immediately, because it's desperately needed regardless of its ease of implementation.
Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
Can it be fixed easily? I have no idea how hard it would be to change the control scheme. I want it to be changed, but maybe it's actually really difficult for some reason?


I could forgive them for that UI and play the game despite that problem, if it's really that hardcoded or something and the coder left the company and nobody can fix it or something... but if it's not, they would help themselves, in the long run, by removing CONS to this game. Or just make another UI as well and and allow us to choose, maybe this fancy UI will be preferred by some as well (because it's fun playing with those chains 2-3 times, I enjoyed it -- but not anymore smile
Even if it's hard they have to do something.

I was trying something Yesterday in the game (because I'm not really playing anymore atm) and hell... I wanted to climb a ladder....

Ok the first climb the ladder. I didn't move him too much because it was on a small platform so no one followed. So I had to click the others companions and I forget to "disband"... The first one go down, then everyone finally climb that ladder...

This is really cheap party mouvement management.
If this game is really ambitious, they have to change this even worse mechanics than 20yo mechanics.
My 2c:

1) Managing the Chain

Like so many other people in this thread, I think managing the chained party order is a pain in the butt.

When I want to change the party's march order, I spend far more time fighting the interface than such a simple task should take. If I want to move the character in position 3 to position 2 (say), it should be as easy as putting the mouse pointer over the 3rd character tile and rolling the scroll wheel up one click, or pressing "2".

I want a single one-click command to ungroup everyone. Have one button just above the party tiles that toggles between "Group" / "Ungroup". When the party groups, it should be to the location of the currently selected character, making the other 3 walk to him.

If I want to ungroup just one character, I should be able to do so easily. It bewilders me that when I'm processing a character's turn, e.g. having him cast a spell then move away, and when I get to the movement part and I need to ungroup him, when I right-click his tile "ungroup" isn't an option (why the hell not?). I have to select any other character, right click the one whose move I want to finish, ungroup him, reselect him, then move him the way I want. (I know I could also drag his tile to the right to 'break' his chain, but nonetheless, WTF are Larian thinking?)

2) Characters Moving in a Chain

So many annoying effects...

I click a location for the party to walk to, on the way the lead character walks into a trap, he keeps walking and the other three members of the party keep walking into the same trap. Even if I'd rolled "3" for all their Intelligence stats, they should've been smarter than this!

If one character enters "sneak" mode, and he sets off to do rogue things, and something happens that takes him out of sneak mode (e.g. he sets off a trap), the other three characters immediately start walking to his location (sometimes walking into the same trap too), usually kicking off a combat when I was absolutely not prepared for it.

At the end of a battle, the ground can have some dangerous patches (e.g. pools of acid, burning oil, etc.). When a character kills the final enemy, the 3 non-selected characters immediately walk to the selected character's location, often taking damage and even being killed by it. This is particularly stupid because they could have easily walked around the dangerous patches, but the path-choosing code had them take the shortest route regardless of how damaging it'd be. At the least, when combat ends have the characters stand still where they are, leaving it to the player to tell them where to move. (Characters choosing damage-dealing routes when safe routes are available is a frequent event, e.g. if I want to jump Asterion over running water, and ask him to jump to the far side of the stream, instead of walking to a dry place that's in range for him to jump from, he'll walk straight toward the destination -- often into the water -- and then jump as soon as he gets within jump range).

The annoyance of unintelligent chained movement is made even worse by Larian's determination to make 'clever' terrains, so we get things like the utterly stupid, poison-gas traps on the way to the Hag's room. I like my D&D games to have at least some degree of reasonableness ("Could the hag and her servants, visitors, suppliers, etc. operate out of a lair that had those traps?"), but in DOS and BG3 Larian often design 'interesting' environments that are unbelievable even in a magical milieu. Having a chain of characters walk unintelligently through areas of terrain that are rigged with incredibly inconvenient traps is a combination that makes for very annoying game play.

I greatly dislike save-scumming in any game, and am very reluctant to load a previous save just because something went poorly. Unfortunately I'm now a constant save-scummer in BG3 because my party members keep doing utterly stupid things just because they are 'chained' together (or because Larian built utterly ridiculous terrain). My enjoyment of the game takes a significant hit every time I reload. I go so tired of this in DOSII that I gave up on that game not even a third of the way through. I suspect BG3 will end up annoying me so much I never play it all the way through either. At the end of a hard day's work, I just want some fun entertainment; I don't want to fight the UI to stop it killing my characters in terrain riddled with ridiculous traps.
"Fighting the interface" is the probably the best description of the problem. The game's interface should not be an obstacle to playing the game, yet this is how it feels now.
I liked it, when I clicked on the path in the swamp region and Astarion decided to run around a hill through water (which hurt him) and set of every trap in the way, in order to get to the point he wanted to stand in. Aside of the fact that visually it seemed he could easily just get there the intended way.

Reminds me of BG 1/2, where sometimes characters raced off through the entire dungeon, to get to their position, just because!

At least in this BG 3 is very close to BG 1 and 2.
Originally Posted by Grantig
I liked it, when I clicked on the path in the swamp region and Astarion decided to run around a hill through water (which hurt him) and set of every trap in the way, in order to get to the point he wanted to stand in. Aside of the fact that visually it seemed he could easily just get there the intended way.

Reminds me of BG 1/2, where sometimes characters raced off through the entire dungeon, to get to their position, just because!

At least in this BG 3 is very close to BG 1 and 2.
op can correct me if im wrong, but i wanna say this thread is about party control (ie chain v unchaining, multiple npc 'jumps', etc) of members not necessarily the ai path navigation - in this regard larians bg game is very much different from bg1/2 (more like dos1/2 imo - which admittedly im not a fan of, lol), but i do also think that the pathing could use some tweaking too...so add it to the list of feedback that larian allegedly will 'consider'
Yeah, the pathfinding is a secondary, incident topic, not the main point.

Beside, who the hell let characters run around "across an entire dungeon" because of pathfinding in BG2 when a single click could stop the issue entirely?
Saying that this makes BG2 and BG3 similar is disingenuous at best.
Pathfinding has always been an issue in these types of games.
Heck in the BG series my play through are littered with reloading because my group didn’t follow properly and walked across a deadly trap or two!!

Surfaces just aggravate the situation. I agree it’s a secondary argument here though.
I never found pathfinding a meaningful issue in the old games because I'm never controlling my party in ways that requires an extensive reliance on pathfinding to begin with.

The AI is systematically turned off. Everyone is just supposed to move where I say and /or auto-attack with the default weapon unless I order otherwise and that's pretty much it.
I want my characters to move toward the selected spot in the proximity or to walk across the area together as a party. I'm never sending them half a map away without even checking what's on the path.

It's a different matter in BG3 precisely because characters are neither comfortable to move individually "selecting the exact spot" (once again, because it requires to chain/unchain them or swap to turn-based mode) nor reliable to manage as a party, with their tendency to move on their own and dance around the selected character.
No it certainly wasn’t a big issue in the previous games, but it was there if you weren’t careful.

Obviously here it’s worse precisely because of the stupid chain function and your party constantly rearranging itself and the often large amount of long lasting surface effects or permanent hazards.

It’s definitely fair to say that if you are going to add obstacles and surface hazards, then the controls and pathfinding if the AI better be on point.
Also going to post here saying that I would very much like something like an infinity-engine based party selection and movement tool. Drag-select and formations are perfect for this kind of game.
Originally Posted by Riandor
No it certainly wasn’t a big issue in the previous games, but it was there if you weren’t careful.

Obviously here it’s worse precisely because of the stupid chain function and your party constantly rearranging itself and the often large amount of long lasting surface effects or permanent hazards.

It’s definitely fair to say that if you are going to add obstacles and surface hazards, then the controls and pathfinding if the AI better be on point.

Yeah, but I try to avoid focusing the discussion around that issue, specifically, because the last thing I'd want is for Larian to look at the feedback, say "Oh, they seem to have issues mostly with characters avoiding surfaces", then throw us a patch that makes characters better at avoiding traps while keeping the same shitty control scheme and say "See? We solved the problem entirely".

Well, no, you fucking didn't.
Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by Riandor
No it certainly wasn’t a big issue in the previous games, but it was there if you weren’t careful.

Obviously here it’s worse precisely because of the stupid chain function and your party constantly rearranging itself and the often large amount of long lasting surface effects or permanent hazards.

It’s definitely fair to say that if you are going to add obstacles and surface hazards, then the controls and pathfinding if the AI better be on point.

Yeah, but I try to avoid focusing the discussion around that issue, specifically, because the last thing I'd want is for Larian to look at the feedback, say "Oh, they seem to have issues mostly with characters avoiding surfaces", then throw us a patch that makes characters better at avoiding traps while keeping the same shitty control scheme and say "See? We solved the problem entirely".

Well, no, you fucking didn't.

Lol... agree!
Going to copy/paste a reply I made to a different thread since I believe it highlights just how severely the current control scheme can get out of hand.

Originally Posted by Bukke
Outside the goblin camp there's a passage full of hidden mines and explosives. In the middle of the passage there's a very small chasm that you need to jump across.
If you somehow manage to avoid all the explosives leading up to the chasm and jump across it with one character (since you can't jump with everyone at once) the remaining three characters will immediately try to walk the entire way around the chasm, triggering explosive mines and possible running into goblin guards (the ones you likely were trying to avoid in the first place if you went this route)

If you want to cross the chasm unharmed you need to unchain all four characters, select them one by one, jump across the chasm, move the characters out of the way to make room for the others (but without stepping on the explosive mines), select all the remaining characters and jump across, then continue to move through the passage without triggering the explosives on the other side as well. If you fail this at any point you'll trigger a mine which deals enough damage to take 1/2 of a character's health on top of leaving a puddle of fire on the ground.

This is extremely bad design if you ask me.
I still agree.
I agree with the OP and would like to see a system similar to that in Solasta.
On a side note, this thread is on the first page almost all the time and I beg you to change 'dreaful' into 'dreadful' - please, my brain is freaking out
I agree. There needs to be some fine tuning with party management
Originally Posted by Sigi98
I agree with the OP and would like to see a system similar to that in Solasta.

Of all the options, Solasta is not really what I'd take as ideal model. Not when whe have PoE or Kingmaker with far better controls (and more suited for this type of game, which is not grid-based).

Quote
On a side note, this thread is on the first page almost all the time and I beg you to change 'dreaful' into 'dreadful' - please, my brain is freaking out

I started saying in the first page of the thread and repeated more than once that I noticed the typo but I can't edit the title (or anything in the first post, really) anymore.

Unless a moderator comes in and "solves the problem", you'll have to live with your freak out.
I'm glad this thread is still alive and well.
But I'm not so glad that Larian still havent made an effort to acknowledge that the party management/movement is in dire need of improvement. Well, not just improvement. More like a complete revamp.
Originally Posted by Tuco
Unless a moderator comes in and "solves the problem", you'll have to live with your freak out.

#"When you wish upon a star....."
Originally Posted by Sadurian
Originally Posted by Tuco
Unless a moderator comes in and "solves the problem", you'll have to live with your freak out.

#"When you wish upon a star....."


omg thank you so much
now I can live in peace
The thread is saved!!!!
Originally Posted by 1varangian
....
CUT
....

And add auto jump.


That's it !!!
i know that every single PC have different stat (strenght), but maybe if you have a rope in your inventory you can have the option
to make an "auto jump" or a sort of (pyramids grin ) teleport, everything is better than select 4 player and have to select 4 jump.
Does anyone who has played other party based RPG's like this control scheme? Why is it still a thing? Because of consoles I guess.

I mean.. by all means keep it as an option, but add a [select all] fast key and marquee selection. And default the chain follow OFF.
The chain/unchain system is reserved for console platform, where it is better to control single character.

If Larian still wants to make it to console, they will never change it back to old crpg style.

Sadly but this is the truth. Just look at Dragon age, DOS2 was inspired by the party move style from DAO. And DAI is more a console game than a PC game with an awkward tactical system. Hope BG3 won’t follow the same pattern.
We Demand More Sexy party movement
Originally Posted by dunehunter
And DAI is more a console game than a PC game with an awkward tactical system. Hope BG3 won’t follow the same pattern.

DAI's party control and camera were terrible when trying to play it with mouse & keyboard.

Though I suspect Larian won't pay attention to this feeback; they seem too focused on their data gathering system. Which won't tell them e.g. that the reason my party spent so much time in the Underdark was the constant party controls vs. difficult terrain battle.
I keep going back and trying to play further in the Early Access, because I like the Forgotten Realms, and the exploration in this game is pretty cool and compelling, but I just can't play for more than 30-45 minutes at a time because I'm fed up with how much of a chore it is to just move the party around. This is why I bounced of DoS1 and 2 as well; fun combat sandbox, but the controls and UI make it too much trouble to play those games.
Not to be the Negative Nancy, but I'm almost afraid this bullshit palliative with followers auto-umping after your MC is ALL the improvement we'll ever see on the front of party controls.
Originally Posted by dunehunter
The chain/unchain system is reserved for console platform, where it is better to control single character.

If Larian still wants to make it to console, they will never change it back to old crpg style.

Sadly but this is the truth. Just look at Dragon age, DOS2 was inspired by the party move style from DAO. And DAI is more a console game than a PC game with an awkward tactical system. Hope BG3 won’t follow the same pattern.


I don't see why controller support should torpedoe it. Pathfinder Kingmaker did it well, with a simple toggle between driving style movement and quick switch to cursor style with one of the thumbsticks. It's also a pretty seamless transition there between a mouse/keyboard and marquee type scheme to a controller based scheme, and they even bothered to put in a tutorial for each. Having seen it done I'd have thought they'd go with something much more like that to capture a more essential BG feel. PK style but in 3D and with camera rotation would have been next level Baldur's Gate! Alas

But I agree what they did here is way closer to DAO or their divinity titles than the old school crpg. They should have just gone straight to console if that was the plan. It already feels more like Dragon Age or Dark Alliance or Demonstone, than BG2 anyway. Right now it feels like playing a game that was designed for controller, but for some reason being forced to play it with a mouse and keyboard, which is just kind of annoying.

I think its all still more the UI that needs work, and the selection/command scheme that needs the work, and just get rid of the body block already for party members.
Originally Posted by Tuco
Not to be the Negative Nancy, but I'm almost afraid this bullshit palliative with followers auto-umping after your MC is ALL the improvement we'll ever see on the front of party controls.


Wait, it doesn't feel naturally to you, that people run into detected traps/open fires just because? wink
It's hard for me to say for sure, but I think movement in combat has actually got worse with this patch! Did the undead crypt fight and the pathing for party members was atrocious, some super bizarre routing. Would appreciate knowing if anyone else has noticed this.
Originally Posted by Tuco
Not to be the Negative Nancy, but I'm almost afraid this bullshit palliative with followers auto-umping after your MC is ALL the improvement we'll ever see on the front of party controls.



Im afraid of that as well
When it comes to controller support I'm playing on Stadia and use the controller sometimes. Don't see any problems when i go back to mouse and keyboard.
Originally Posted by Veilburner
When it comes to controller support I'm playing on Stadia and use the controller sometimes. Don't see any problems when i go back to mouse and keyboard.

Are you sure you are in the right thread?
Because this isn't about controller support. It's about how shitty the default control scheme is compared to other titles in the genre.
Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by Veilburner
When it comes to controller support I'm playing on Stadia and use the controller sometimes. Don't see any problems when i go back to mouse and keyboard.

Are you sure you are in the right thread?
Because this isn't about controller support. It's about how shitty the default control scheme is compared to other titles in the genre.



Was responding to someone who said if they added controller support it would no longer be a CRPG.
Originally Posted by Grantig
Originally Posted by Tuco
Not to be the Negative Nancy, but I'm almost afraid this bullshit palliative with followers auto-umping after your MC is ALL the improvement we'll ever see on the front of party controls.


Wait, it doesn't feel naturally to you, that people run into detected traps/open fires just because? wink


Whaaat? You mean your friends don't throw themselves off cliffs into fire the second you try and cast guidance on one of them?!

Larian, your controls suck. From the camera, party movement, to pathing, to casting spells on targets... its all terrible. I just don't understand why, when there is a basic control scheme that works well for hundreds of other games, you decide to reinvent the wheel and start with a square blob of flaming poop rather than a wooden circle.
Originally Posted by alice_ashpool
It's hard for me to say for sure, but I think movement in combat has actually got worse with this patch! Did the undead crypt fight and the pathing for party members was atrocious, some super bizarre routing. Would appreciate knowing if anyone else has noticed this.



My party wouldn't even walk in the bottom level of the crypt... its way worse now, which is kind of impressive.
I start a new game Yesterday After a few weeks and yes... These controls definitely sucks.

They did a great job about cantrips and I really really hope they'll also listen to all of us about this.

Something more usual would greatly improve their games for the future : this chain mechanic has no advantages from a player point of view, only disadvantages.
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
I start a new game Yesterday After a few weeks and yes... These controls definitely sucks.

They did a great job about cantrips and I really really hope they'll also listen to all of us about this.

Something more usual would greatly improve their games for the future : this chain mechanic has no advantages from a player point of view, only disadvantages.


The chain mechanic works well on consoles in the DOS games, especially when playing co-op. But yeah hopefully they give us more options.
Originally Posted by Tuco
Sorry for the blunt title, I tried a more polite "Honest feedback: I don't like the way Larian defaults control of the whole party" but I ran out of characters half way through the sentence.

Aaaanyway, back to the topic.

This control based on the position of a single character with all companions defaulting on auto-follow is genuinely cumbersome when you compare it to pretty much any other RPG in the same subgenre: the old BG games, Torment, Icewind Dale, Temple of Elemental Evil, Pillars of Eternity, Pathfinder, etc., where you simply cliclck and drag to select multiple characters, keep them in a formation you can rotate dragging the cursor and you can quickly send each one of them in different direction with ONE click.


There are several problems with the Larian solution:

- it's slower to use properly when precision is required.
- it's less accurate.
- it's a mess that turns into a comedic skit with idiots running randomly anywhere in any situation where you need to give everyone QUICK instructions on where to position.
- that mess can be deadly when there are combat triggers and/or traps around.

I can't honestly think of a single excuse to defend this "innovative" system they introduced since DOS1 in comparison with the above-mentioned titles.

I have to ask my fellows forum dwelllers: is there ANYONE who actually likes the Larian system the most? And if that's the case can that good soul (may the gods have mercy on him) tell us WHY?






I also wish this game was made on Infinity Engine
I have to be perfectly honest, for most of the 2000 hours I played D:OS 2 I played a lone wolf build, this game is fully capable of being beat as a solo runner which some people like myself like as it's very challenging and less time consuming. My best guess is that Larian are trying to keep everyone happy who are Larian fans since D:OS 2 as lets be fair it's their biggest seller to date due to the lone wolf system at $90M+ revenue to date, It's their version of party management that got them there from a crowd funded start up, and it is their stamp on a game long abandoned by Bioware. Bioware themselves are making terrible games these days as the good devs retired rich. To defend that statement has anyone actually played SW Squadrons and not shouted uncontrollably at the screen as controls are that bad, or rage quit the old republic as they nerfed everything except Knight, or even cursed the controls in fallen order as it was a fallen order alright, which involved you being the fallen as the controls typically registered in the wrong order?. Let Larian be Larian as Bioware are terribad these days churning out short term tested kiddy fodder is the message there.

Try to remember Dave Arneson and Gary Gygax invented DND for SINGULAR characters to move through Fearun in 1974 USING companions for their...Well, use. DND is a tabletop you could actually play by yourself, or with friends as a choice not dictation. Before nostalgia tripping also remember Shadows of Amn came out in 2000 when party split was not a possiblity due to technological restriction and Bioware as mentioned above were ruined by EA almost as much as Blizzard by Activision.

I will admit solo rogue is proving Impossible for me at the moment as it's a bit flimsy due to being forced not to invest in enough constitution and can be one shot by so many creatures it's frustrating, that's truly my only gripe other than my last post.

(edit) Also to keep solo runners happy they will need to up the timer on a certain trapped lady in a cage without creating a spoiler.
Originally Posted by LukasPrism
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
I start a new game Yesterday After a few weeks and yes... These controls definitely sucks.

They did a great job about cantrips and I really really hope they'll also listen to all of us about this.

Something more usual would greatly improve their games for the future : this chain mechanic has no advantages from a player point of view, only disadvantages.


The chain mechanic works well on consoles in the DOS games, especially when playing co-op. But yeah hopefully they give us more options.


Other classic systems works well on other games on console too smile
The chain is just a "follow"... Select 2 characters and the result is the same except that one is a mess while the other one is accurate, which is important in a strategy game.

Pathfinder Kingmaker, Pillars of Eternity, Solasta, Dragon Age, Temple of Elemental Evil, Wasteland 2 and 3, Tyranny,...
We could also talk about most RTS games like Total War, Age of Empire, Company of Heroes and so on...

All those strategy games have the same control system and that's because it's way better than Larian's chain...

They have to admit that.their way of doing things is not the best (is not good) and they have to work on that if they want to reach the sky.

The chain has absolutely 0 pro if you compare with the other system, only cons.
+1 for total rethink.

This patch improved things but we don't need to prune around the edges -- kill this movement system at the root and plant something new. Even patch 3 is much worse than PoE. Getting to the ancient mud mephit encounter is still difficult and getting there in stealth mode actually got more difficult.
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Originally Posted by LukasPrism
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
I start a new game Yesterday After a few weeks and yes... These controls definitely sucks.

They did a great job about cantrips and I really really hope they'll also listen to all of us about this.

Something more usual would greatly improve their games for the future : this chain mechanic has no advantages from a player point of view, only disadvantages.


The chain mechanic works well on consoles in the DOS games, especially when playing co-op. But yeah hopefully they give us more options.


Other classic systems works well on other games on console too smile
The chain is just a "follow"... Select 2 characters and the result is the same except that one is a mess while the other one is accurate, which is important in a strategy game.

Pathfinder Kingmaker, Pillars of Eternity, Solasta, Dragon Age, Temple of Elemental Evil, Wasteland 2 and 3, Tyranny,...
We could also talk about most RTS games like Total War, Age of Empire, Company of Heroes and so on...

All those strategy games have the same control system and that's because it's way better than Larian's chain...

They have to admit that.their way of doing things is not the best (is not good) and they have to work on that if they want to reach the sky.

The chain has absolutely 0 pro if you compare with the other system, only cons.


If you think it has no pros, you’ve never played it with a controller – and probably never played co-op either judging by that list of games you’re comparing this to.
Originally Posted by LukasPrism

The chain mechanic works well on consoles in the DOS games, especially when playing co-op. But yeah hopefully they give us more options.

There is literally no design goal achieved by this system, even on the "controller" side of the argument, that couldn't be replaced for the better by simple "everyone follow/stop following" toggle, like Dragon Age did in 2009.

And to be clear I still think Dragon Age Origins had a subpar control scheme compared to other of the titles mentioned across this thread as good examples (Kingmaker, Poe 2, etc).
Which makes kind of telling that it's STILL lightyears ahead of the chain/unchain system.
Originally Posted by LukasPrism
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Originally Posted by LukasPrism
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
I start a new game Yesterday After a few weeks and yes... These controls definitely sucks.

They did a great job about cantrips and I really really hope they'll also listen to all of us about this.

Something more usual would greatly improve their games for the future : this chain mechanic has no advantages from a player point of view, only disadvantages.


The chain mechanic works well on consoles in the DOS games, especially when playing co-op. But yeah hopefully they give us more options.


Other classic systems works well on other games on console too smile
The chain is just a "follow"... Select 2 characters and the result is the same except that one is a mess while the other one is accurate, which is important in a strategy game.

Pathfinder Kingmaker, Pillars of Eternity, Solasta, Dragon Age, Temple of Elemental Evil, Wasteland 2 and 3, Tyranny,...
We could also talk about most RTS games like Total War, Age of Empire, Company of Heroes and so on...

All those strategy games have the same control system and that's because it's way better than Larian's chain...

They have to admit that.their way of doing things is not the best (is not good) and they have to work on that if they want to reach the sky.

The chain has absolutely 0 pro if you compare with the other system, only cons.


If you think it has no pros, you’ve never played it with a controller – and probably never played co-op either judging by that list of games you’re comparing this to.


Please, feel free to enlighten me about it because no, I don't see any PRO whatever we're talking about PC/console or solo/multiplayer.

Did you ever played one of the games I named on console ?
I did... And in exemple in Baldur's Gate Enhanced Edition on Nintendo Switch you can control your companions with 2 solutions :

- The classic mechanic : your right stick point a location, you click A, your party move in formation. You can easily select the character(s) to move.
- But you can also use your right stick to directly control the main character (stick to the left, character moving to the left). Every selected companions just follow.

If you want to select more or less companions, just press L then select the characters on a wheel.
In a way... that's a little bit the same except that you don't always have to chain/unchain. Even on console, this "old" system has been adapted and is still cleaner, easier and faster.

I also bought and played DoS2 on Nintendo Switch but to be honnest only a few hours because controls are a mess even more.
About MP no, I never tried but I can't see the point. You can individually select who follow you or not...

Seriously, give me your PRO because I can't see a single one if compare both mechanics (I just launched the two games on my switch to be sure I remembered well...)
I'm not for the purpose of arguing, just to make sure that I understand the problem right:
The main problem with controls for you (Maximuuus, Tuco, others maybe) is that there are too many moves needed to switch between controlling one character or the whole group / part of the group?
Also, did you notice that you can group/ungroup characters by right click on their portrait?
I'm honestly on board with the controls being bad, I've had it multiple times now where follow seems to break, the long story short is if I want to set up positions for any kind of strategy I'm doing way more clicks than I should be doing leading to an exercise in frustration, also the following of characters combined with automatic dialogue triggering upon proximity often leads to my companions being treated as the main character for dialogue cause my player character was out of position at the end of combat. It's honestly annoying having to chain and unchain people every time I setup my characters cause I'm effectively tripling my clicks if I consider I have to unchain, click, tab to other char, unchain click, etc etc. a good UI is supposed to reduce the amount of clicks/interactions needed to do anything, the UI is also laggy in that regard often leading to me having to double click because the game's not giving me proper feedback to inputs.
Originally Posted by Zellin
I'm not for the purpose of arguing, just to make sure that I understand the problem right:
The main problem with controls for you (Maximuuus, Tuco, others maybe) is that there are too many moves needed to switch between controlling one character or the whole group / part of the group?

Yeah, it has been explained over and over across the entire thread at this point, so it's a bit weird to come in with that request of clarification, but to be clear, the discussion here is not about what kind of maneuver the Larian UI allows you to do, but ab out how convoluted it makes it.


Things that with an "RTS-like" control scheme would literally take a couple of clicks here takes an inane amount of unnecessary intermediate steps.

Lets' take a scenario as an example:

PLAYER 1 is at the gates of a hostile camp and decides he wants to set up an ambush. As a starting maneuver he decides to put his party in stealth, move each one of his party members in a specific corner of the area, then he opens the dances, wipes the enemies (let's sya the brigands) from the face of the planet and goes back to move his entire party as one.

In a traditional system:
He will select the whole party, click/press the "stealth" command, then with literally just two clicks for each, he will select and move every character exactly where he wants it.
When the fight will be done, a quick click and drag on the whole party or a press the "select all" shortcut and and he will go on his way.

With the Larian system:
Click stealth. Oh right, only the selected character goes in stealth, so repeat the process for each one of the four men (imagine if it was a party of six, sigh). Time to tell each one where to...
Wait a second, why is everyone moving every time the selected character does? Oh right, time to UNCHAIN each one of them, either by dragging the portrait or right clicking on it and selecting the equivalent function.
Now he can tell each one where to go, have the exact same fight and be on his wa- Wait a second, why is everyone standing aroud like an idiot?
Oh right, before that he needs to re-select each one of them individually, relink them to the party (which by the way works only if they are already in the proximity, so maybe he needs to move everyone more closely before) and then finally be able to go on his way again.

And please, don't make the similar word count fool you, what we have on the latter is not "from 30% to 50% longer", the description of these actions may be somewhat comparable in length but this second process takes almost four times the amount of work of the first one in practical terms.
Can you see why this system is garbage no matter from what angle you may look at it?

EDIT- Edited the post a bit because I was constantly going from second to third person and that made it particularly messy to read.
I notice sometimes I click somewhere, and the member goes else where, or will not stop moving immediately.
IF there could be a immediate stop movement button.

And I think I read somewhere that Larian has a invisible roof over the world.
I wonder if that is getting in the way when clicking locations?
Originally Posted by Zellin
I'm not for the purpose of arguing, just to make sure that I understand the problem right:
The main problem with controls for you (Maximuuus, Tuco, others maybe) is that there are too many moves needed to switch between controlling one character or the whole group / part of the group?
Also, did you notice that you can group/ungroup characters by right click on their portrait?


There are at least minimum one more click to do whatever you right click or drag the chain to break it (usually two click when you try to break the chain because it's buggy...).

It's a problem, especially because it's often 1 or 2 per character (see tuco's exemple with a full party).

As I said I just tried both BGEE and DoS2 on switch and if you compare : one is fluent, clean and easy. You click and move.
The other is a mess hard to understand, slow and often buggy. You spend way more time to link your ranged together, then your melee, then...

Larian's chain is something you have to manage and we shouldn't have to manage the characters control mechanics.

But that's not the only problems.
The companions run like chickens everytime.

You climb a ladder and select another character that is still climbing -> the first one go down...
Your party is standing but you select another character -> the 3 other are moving
You spot ennemies and walk back not to engage -> Your companions are going a little bit closer and the battle start.
That's only a few usual exemples.

(Way) more click + useless and (often) unexpected movements = slow and inaccurate control of your characters... Which is a shame is a """strategy game""" (that's what steam say about the game)
Thx for your answers.
And yes, Tuco, I see the problem. To explain me being weird: most of the thread was like "it's garbage", "that game did it better". And I played those games long ago or never. So I wanted to see the exact phrasing of the problem without spending a lot of time searching through 17pages in case someone already did phrase it.
I'm composing my suggestions on UI and controls. And I'm trying to keep my suggestions aligned with popular feedback. That's it.
Originally Posted by Tuco

Lets' take a scenario as an example:

PLAYER 1 is at the gates of a hostile camp and decides he wants to set up an ambush. As a starting maneuver he decides to put his party in stealth, move each one of his party members in a specific corner of the area, then he opens the dances, wipes the enemies (let's sya the brigands) from the face of the planet and goes back to move his entire party as one.

In a traditional system:
He will select the whole party, click/press the "stealth" command, then with literally just two clicks for each, he will select and move every character exactly where he wants it.
When the fight is done, a quick click and drag on the whole party or a press the "select all" shortcut and and he will go on your way.

With the Larian system:
Click stealth. Oh right, only the selected character goes in stealth, so repeat the process for each one of the four men (imagine if it was a party of six, sigh). Time to tell each one where to...
Wait a second, why is everyone moving every time the selected character does? Oh right, time to UNCHAIN each one of them, either by dragging the portrait or right clicking on it and selecting the equivalent function.
Now you can tell each one where to go, have the exact same fight and be on his wa- Wait a second, why is everyone standing aroud like an idiot?
Oh right, before that he needs to re-select each one of them individually, relink them to the party (which by the way works only if they are already in the proximity, so maybe he needs to move everyone more closely before) and then finally be able to go on his way again.

And don't make the similar word count fool you, what we have on the latter is not "from 30% to 50% longer", the description of these actions may be somewhat comparable in length but this second process takes almost four times the amount of work of the first one in practical terms.
Can you see why this system is garbage no matter from what angle you may look at it?



Well-illustrated. This makes it very clear.
Woeful pathfinding and ‘running around like chickens’ aside, it doesn’t actually sound like we need to throw out the chain system entirely (as that does work well on consoles where multi-selecting would be clunky). What would help is:
1) A command to chain/unchain all with no range limit
2) Stealth to apply to all currently chained party members (I can’t think of a situation where you wouldn’t want to stealth any of the PCs following you if you’re going into stealth yourself)

I actually don’t think formations are too important for a turn-based game like this. In fact, having all my party frog-marching around doesn’t feel very D&D to me. I’d rather it went more the other way, like Dragon’s Dogma’s pawns, where they have a bit more independence and your druid might automatically harvest plants for you while you’re walking around, perhaps your barbarian likes smashing crates and saving you having to check all the containers yourself (all within reason of course, and hopefully with better AI and inventory management). To me that cuts down on the repetition and feels far more immersive. Gives you more opportunities to have companions say things too, making the game feel more alive.
There are only 2 formations I can see if the party only has 4 pcs: the Square and the Line.

The only thing that really matters there is whether you want the PC leading from the front, or taking up the rear.

The square just becomes a wedge with fewer than 4 in the party, basically whether you want leader up for scouting or running interference, or behind for guarded ranged or casting etc, its similar just with one exposed flank in the front or the rear.

Square/Diamond should be the all purpose formation for free roaming outdoors or above ground.

The Line is better for dungeon crawling, or hazardous terrain, sneaking or avoiding traps and the like.

Obviously its more interesting with more PCs like say 6. It still doesn't feel gold box caliber to me without 6 PCs, or a clean dozen with summons. Then you can get cooler formations with rings or wings maybe, but the environments are too small or else cam doesn't let us zoom out far enough to really make much use of the formations idea.

A follow mechanic is good, but the chain just feels clunky. Dragging portraits out and back into each other is obnoxious and click intensive. Especially since you don't really interact with the portraits for anything else, like say casting spells. Its also not the easiest to tell the leader position, I think vertical portrait orientation is better. Leader at the top. In any case its just not simple enough to group/ungroup select all. I don't see myself doing much co op but if it was well designed I might use a controller to play this game. Its too bad they don't have much controller support for the EA except stadia I guess? Cause this seems like it would be a good time to get that dialed too, if they're hoping to go that way. Anyone tried a pad mapper for xbox controller or anything like that? I don't feel like I'm getting all that much from the mouse and keyboard. I'd probably just go for DA or Kotor style and bumble about with the thumbstick.
maybe if they add keybinds for unchaining + being able to box select or select multiple portraits so the amount of clicks get reduced from triple to 1 box select - > key bind to toggle chain/unchain -> position x4 clicks -> engage combat with good positioning

box selection or ctrl+A or other keybind to select all characters again post combat to gather up and hit keybind toggle for chain/unchain party again would alleviate a LOT of my problems here, I dunno how feasible it is to implement for them technically but I'm very much noticing I'm missing some controls or I feel that some of the keybinds or party management is needlessly clunky.
"Maybe this, maybe that. We could do X rather than Y" and so on.

Do we even realize that every suggested compromise so far boils down to making a terrible system somewhat less obscene to use, without any genuine hope to make it actually good?
Every time a partial modification that keeps the chain system around is suggested, it boils down to being a a proverbial case of trying to put lipstick on a pig.

Yeah, a quick keybind ot chain/unchain everyone on a button press WOULD make things better, and it was suggested since the beginning of this very thread even by myself. But when you think about it, its only function would be insisting to salvage a garbage control scheme.
It would be far better to approach this from the exact opposite position: what about giving us a decent control scheme that makes sense, to begin with, and THEN include an "everyone autofollow!" function as a toggle for people with dysfunctional hands who really, REALLY want to control only their MC.
IDK maybe because we’re realists and understand that Larian can implement a few quick fixes to greatly improve QoL but there’s very little chance they’re going to bin all their existing code and start again?
We really need a "hold position" command and it would solve a lot of the problems I encounter. When I'm jumping onto a precarious position and we're all hiding, I can't have idiots wandering around into view of my hordes of enemies.
I just want marquee select. Seriously, how hard is it to implement?
Originally Posted by LukasPrism
IDK maybe because we’re realists and understand that Larian can implement a few quick fixes to greatly improve QoL but there’s very little chance they’re going to bin all their existing code and start again?

"All their existing code"?
Just how much ingrained and "hard coded" into the game do you actually expect the UI to be, exactly?
Pretty deeply I’d say considering they’ve used the same schema for three games now instead of rebuilding it, and during that time there has never been the ability to select more than one character at a time. As someone mentioned earlier there was pressure to change it for DOS2 but it didn’t happen.
Anyway, I’m not saying it shouldn’t change if they are willing and able to. But there’s no harm in putting in some more modest requests as a Plan B.
My personal ideal would be to focus on my MC and let the companions take care of themselves in an intelligent manner – closer to true D&D where you only have one character – at least until combat begins. I’d love to see Larian push boundaries and do something new in that spirit, like Dragon’s Dogma did, and let go of the past. As many have mentioned, there are already several great infinity clones out there. But I understand I’m almost certainly in the minority on this.
a keybind to mass unchain your party and mass rechain + have a keybind that orders all party members to the mouse cursor location seems feasible enough, they'd just have to get functions tied to certain buttons, this would sidestep the need to select multiple characters which seems incompatible with how the game functions with the whole UI changing to fit whichever char you have selected

the ordering the party to 1 location would be to assist in rechaining the party together after unchaining them and spreading them to strategic locations before entering combat.
Originally Posted by Ankou
We really need a "hold position" command and it would solve a lot of the problems I encounter. When I'm jumping onto a precarious position and we're all hiding, I can't have idiots wandering around into view of my hordes of enemies.


I would like that as well as the marquee select. If Larian could just add those two they would be on the right path when it comes to party control.
And no, I don't think it would require that much work to implement something like that. Not trashing all their existing code and start over again as some people seems to think for some reason.
Originally Posted by LukasPrism
Pretty deeply I’d say considering they’ve used the same schema for three games now instead of rebuilding it, and during that time there has never been the ability to select more than one character at a time. As someone mentioned earlier there was pressure to change it for DOS2 but it didn’t happen.

That just means people at Larian for some inane reason seem to be very fond of their shitty control scheme, it doesn't mean there are any meaningful technical obstacles to doing things differently.
Which is precisely the part where it becomes a dire need from our side telling them insistently that NO, it actually sucks a whole lot.
Originally Posted by Black_Elk
There are only 2 formations I can see if the party only has 4 pcs: the Square and the Line.

The only thing that really matters there is whether you want the PC leading from the front, or taking up the rear.

The square just becomes a wedge with fewer than 4 in the party, basically whether you want leader up for scouting or running interference, or behind for guarded ranged or casting etc, its similar just with one exposed flank in the front or the rear.

Square/Diamond should be the all purpose formation for free roaming outdoors or above ground.

The Line is better for dungeon crawling, or hazardous terrain, sneaking or avoiding traps and the like.

Obviously its more interesting with more PCs like say 6. It still doesn't feel gold box caliber to me without 6 PCs, or a clean dozen with summons. Then you can get cooler formations with rings or wings maybe, but the environments are too small or else cam doesn't let us zoom out far enough to really make much use of the formations idea.

A follow mechanic is good, but the chain just feels clunky. Dragging portraits out and back into each other is obnoxious and click intensive. Especially since you don't really interact with the portraits for anything else, like say casting spells. Its also not the easiest to tell the leader position, I think vertical portrait orientation is better. Leader at the top. In any case its just not simple enough to group/ungroup select all. I don't see myself doing much co op but if it was well designed I might use a controller to play this game. Its too bad they don't have much controller support for the EA except stadia I guess? Cause this seems like it would be a good time to get that dialed too, if they're hoping to go that way. Anyone tried a pad mapper for xbox controller or anything like that? I don't feel like I'm getting all that much from the mouse and keyboard. I'd probably just go for DA or Kotor style and bumble about with the thumbstick.


Of the top of my head there are five useful formations for a party of four: the line and the square, that you brought up, but also the Diamond, and the T and it's reversed, upside down brother.

Diamond (♦️) is probably the formation I would use the most. Heavy melee in front, secondary melee and half-fighters in row two, the most frail character in the back. The T puts three melee or fighty characters up front and one frail in the second row. The upside down T puts the heavy alone in the front and the frail one in between the other two, flanks secured by less frail companions.

However, allowing formation isn't just about the shapes of the formations - it's also about who goes where. If I can build my own formation I can have my wizard character in the back even when he is the selected character. That way he will be protected during exploration yet still be the one who enters dialogue when I click on an NPC. And that kind of quality of life features makes party/character selection so much less of a hassle to handle.
Yeah I like the T and ⊥ too in principle, but I was thinking that formation probably doesn't matter all that much within TBS combat, since once you enter battle there's not much to be gained by holding a formation in this game. At that point its a free for all race either to reach an opponent and start whacking, or get out of the way or to the high ground. So its really more for the roaming outside combat, like whether you want the group to be spread out or all close together when the combat begins. But even there people are mostly meta gaming it I'd guess and approaching combat in whatever position/formation will gain them advantage, since good ambushes are rare and you can scout with the camera.

I'm a control freak, so I also wish I could hold/lock position build formations and move in a more coordinated way, with simple efficient clicking, not click and drag portrait to deal with chains. But that's cause I still dig infinity's RTS type control/command scheme with a marquee or select all hotkey.

I could probably get into something like Dragon's Dogma as an alternative approach for the roaming. It wouldn't feel particularly Baldur's Gate, but at least it would coast along in a more interesting sort of way when outside of combat. I was rather hoping for something more engaging from movement outside of combat, maybe taking a page from Zelda where in addition to jumping players could actually climb and swim and whatnot, maybe use ropes and like. But even the most compelling environments here are just kind of like ziggurats for king of the hill and geared more to combat than free form exploration. In other games I always find myself wanting to head up the wrong side of the mountain, or jump off the tallest rock, and mess about that way, and this sort of teases that 3d and cam control, but doesn't really deliver when it comes to the roaming. That territory has been thoroughly explored in action games where you only have a single character, but I can imagine a lot of cool animations and ways it might work in a party based game where it hasn't really been done yet.

Anyhow, just to echo the other concerns, I'm not super happy with the current controls. Its not fluid enough to be relaxing outside of combat, and overly exacting for simple stuff like just jumping over a rock or having everyone else stand still while you're making the attempt. I think in a desire to keep the party "looking" active and dynamic, they end up with that frenetic jogging about that has been described as chickens ambling without purpose. I just want to be able to issue the commands to each PC separately and have them not trip over themselves or each other, run around the long way, catch on fire or whatever. BG1s innovation was basically to make itself Diablo x6 hehe. I get that this one is different because TB, but I don't want to play the whole thing in 6 second intervals just so that movement outside combat feels like I'm still in control, which I guess is the way its done right now. Just seems like they could get something simpler and more responsive for the roaming part, which is the majority of the game after all.

Originally Posted by Sharp
I just want marquee select. Seriously, how hard is it to implement?



Apparently really hard.

(Me too.)
Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
Originally Posted by Sharp
I just want marquee select. Seriously, how hard is it to implement?



Apparently really hard.

(Me too.)

I'm afraid that kind of select may prove not that comfortable in ful 3D with somewhat short zoom distance, verticality and complex environment.
Originally Posted by Zellin
Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
Originally Posted by Sharp
I just want marquee select. Seriously, how hard is it to implement?



Apparently really hard.

(Me too.)

I'm afraid that kind of select may prove not that comfortable in ful 3D with somewhat short zoom distance, verticality and complex environment.


I did wonder about that, what vertical plane is the marquee on etc, but you could likely just treat the viewport as a plane and select whatever you can see with a marquee. I think the trouble partly stems from Larian having built their model as co-op focused (which is partly why they’ve been really successful). I also think they’re aiming higher than traditional infinity-style CRPGs and trying to take this kind of micromanagement out of the game where you feel the need to boss each partly member around constantly. And that actually suits D&D 100%. The only problem is they’re not there yet – the clumsy AI gets you in trouble which makes you want to exert more control. That and there are a couple of QoL commands missing.

If they ever give us the ability to summon multiple creatures like you should be able to in 5E then marquee select would be very useful though – unless you like exploration with a controller (as I do), in which case you’re going to have a big gaggle of crocodiles etc bumbling around behind you.
^If Larian is trying to take micromanagement out of the game, they've failed pretty hard. The DoS controls and UI have made BG3 so much more fiddly and cumbersome than the old games in the series ever were.
Originally Posted by Mogan
^If Larian is trying to take micromanagement out of the game, they've failed pretty hard. The DoS controls and UI have made BG3 so much more fiddly and cumbersome than the old games in the series ever were.


Plain truth.
Some of the most important group commands I dream for.

- Everybody gather up (auto move to reconnect chain group)
- Everybody wait for orders (break chain group)
- Everybody stop moving
Originally Posted by YT-Yangbang
Some of the most important group commands I dream for.

- Everybody gather up (auto move to reconnect chain group)
- Everybody wait for orders (break chain group)
- Everybody stop moving

And let's not forget "Let me control how many characters I want".
Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by YT-Yangbang
Some of the most important group commands I dream for.

- Everybody gather up (auto move to reconnect chain group)
- Everybody wait for orders (break chain group)
- Everybody stop moving

And let's not forget "Let me control how many characters I want".

How many characters do you want to control? 4 is pretty big
Originally Posted by YT-Yangbang
Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by YT-Yangbang
Some of the most important group commands I dream for.

- Everybody gather up (auto move to reconnect chain group)
- Everybody wait for orders (break chain group)
- Everybody stop moving

And let's not forget "Let me control how many characters I want".

How many characters do you want to control? 4 is pretty big

He means cases for more than 1 less than 4.
Originally Posted by YT-Yangbang

How many characters do you want to control? 4 is pretty big

No, it's fucking NOT. Four people is on the anemic side as far as parties go.

Besides, I was referring about being ACTUALLY able to control more than one character at once, RTS-style.
Precisely what the current Larian control scheme doesn't allow you to do.
I think I would prefer the more conventional hold and drag method with the mouse to select characters like in the or baldurs gate. Also it would be verrrryyy helpful if you could buff/heal party members by clicking on there character tab
erase the characteristics of the enemy ...
it would be like asking ... what level are you?
Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by YT-Yangbang

How many characters do you want to control? 4 is pretty big

No, it's fucking NOT. Four people is on the anemic side as far as parties go.

Besides, I was referring about being ACTUALLY able to control more than one character at once, RTS-style.
Precisely what the current Larian control scheme doesn't allow you to do.

RTS style, that completely changes the style of the game. What part of an RTS style would fit inside this games mechanics for the better part of movement?
Originally Posted by YT-Yangbang

RTS style, that completely changes the style of the game. What part of an RTS style would fit inside this games mechanics for the better part of movement?

Literally EVERYTHING outside of the turn-based combat phase.

Exactly like plenty of other games in the same genre already did, by the way.
Not sure why you are even talking as if we were trying to figure out some weird mythological beast out of our imagination.


...Are you even actually following what we are talking about here? You seem to be be struggling to figure it out, somehow.
Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by YT-Yangbang

RTS style, that completely changes the style of the game. What part of an RTS style would fit inside this games mechanics for the better part of movement?

Literally EVERYTHING outside of the turn-based combat phase.

Exactly like plenty of other games in the same genre already did, by the way.
Not sure why you are even talking as if we were trying to figure out some weird mythological beast out of our imagination.


...Are you even actually following what we are talking about here? You seem to be be struggling to figure it out, somehow.

So for example what other game? I'm trying to see what you see.
Hopefully I can catch you before you reply, but we've almost said the same things in this thread. That being the most needed and wanted commands are a "group all (action)" list. Group all break, group all gather, group all stop current movement, group all enter/exit sneak. The only difference you are asking is the click and drag to select member. Which is somewhat of a good call, but I'd prioritize the group commands above that. It would make the group controlling so much more smoother, which I believe we agree on. So apart from the click and drag to select, is that the only RTS style commanding you think would help the game?
Originally Posted by YT-Yangbang

So for example what other game? I'm trying to see what you see.

Temple of Elemental Evil, Pathfinder Kingmaker with the turn-based mode, Pillars of Eternity 2 always with the turn-based mode... And that's only if we want to keep the distinction between party controls during exploration and turn-based combat.
If we ignore this, it literally applies to ANY of the old Infinity Engine titles (Baldur's Gate 1 and 2 included) and the interminable legion of clones they received across the years.

Once again I can't help but wonder if you are keeping track of what's actually being discussed here.

Originally Posted by YT-Yangbang
Hopefully I can catch you before you reply, but we've almost said the same things in this thread. That being the most needed and wanted commands are a "group all (action)" list. Group all break, group all gather, group all stop current movement, group all enter/exit sneak. The only difference you are asking is the click and drag to select member. Which is somewhat of a good call, but I'd prioritize the group commands above that. It would make the group controlling so much more smoother, which I believe we agree on. So apart from the click and drag to select, is that the only RTS style commanding you think would help the game?

The difference is that you keep suggesting to add a bunch of "do this for all" specific commands, where I'm asking "Just let me select whoever I want out of my party and give commands to that selection specifically, as this genre always did for more than 20 years".
There's a reason if "RTS-like" commands were introduced into the genre, it's not by chance: it's the genre that perfected making the control of multiple units at once as quick and intuitive as possible.


But you can already just select one character out of the party and position him here and there as you wish. So sorry if I'm confused but you are already saying you want things, that are already possible in game. Idk if my game is just bugged correctly, but when I put one character into sneak mode, only he ever moves and the rest of the party stands by for orders. So one by one, outside of where I'm planning my ambush, I select a character, enter sneak mode, move to position, and then select next character. One two three four, enter battle.

What in that process are you wanting to make more RTS like? When you say RTS I'm thinking like Total war and Starcraft, so maybe we're on different pages.
Originally Posted by YT-Yangbang
But you can already just select one character out of the party and position him here and there as you wish. .


That's precisely the problem. You can ONLY select ONE character at any given time.
You can't give group commands to a subselection of your party, which is what an "RTS-like" system would allow.

And YES, you can painstalkingly give detailed commands to each one of your men separately... With an awkward, convoluted and slow-as-hell UI that makes the process severely more time consuming than it could be.

Seriously, are you trolling me? Wasting my time on purpose? Deliberately pretending to not understand what the entire thread is about?
Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by YT-Yangbang
But you can already just select one character out of the party and position him here and there as you wish. .


That's precisely the problem. You can ONLY select ONE character at any given time.
You can't give group commands to a subselection of your party, which is what an "RTS-like" system would allow.

And YES, you can painstalkingly give detailed commands to each one of your men separately... With an awkward, convoluted and slow-as-hell UI that makes the process severely more time consuming than it could be.

Seriously, are you trolling me? Wasting my time on purpose? Deliberately pretending to not understand what the entire thread is about?

Calm down bro, I'm not trolling you. You really are so impatient and bothered about moving your 4 units into key positions on the field. Each character is not a (trooper name lvl x) that you move en mass. Plenty of times i tired to position my mage in a spot with my ranger on a high ground, just to find out his low strength score couldn't make the damn jump. It made for a great role play because now I had to re adjust my plan and keep him on the floor level with my fighter.

I have to admit that I've not played the other rpgs you mentioned, my list of turn based games like this are DOS2 and Xcom. With DOS2 being Larian's, its methods to me, weren't broken. But as I've been pointing out, just need refinement.

You literally just sound impatient, my dude.
Yeah, it's official: you are wasting my time.

"How is that UI you are suggesting better"
"Here's a list of examples on how the alternative would work better".
"Well, I don't mind the current UI being worse anyway. You just sound impatient".


Way to miss the point. If this isn't trolling then I don't know what it is.
Originally Posted by YT-Yangbang
Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by YT-Yangbang
But you can already just select one character out of the party and position him here and there as you wish. .


That's precisely the problem. You can ONLY select ONE character at any given time.
You can't give group commands to a subselection of your party, which is what an "RTS-like" system would allow.

And YES, you can painstalkingly give detailed commands to each one of your men separately... With an awkward, convoluted and slow-as-hell UI that makes the process severely more time consuming than it could be.

Seriously, are you trolling me? Wasting my time on purpose? Deliberately pretending to not understand what the entire thread is about?

Calm down bro, I'm not trolling you. You really are so impatient and bothered about moving your 4 units into key positions on the field. Each character is not a (trooper name lvl x) that you move en mass. Plenty of times i tired to position my mage in a spot with my ranger on a high ground, just to find out his low strength score couldn't make the damn jump. It made for a great role play because now I had to re adjust my plan and keep him on the floor level with my fighter.

I have to admit that I've not played the other rpgs you mentioned, my list of turn based games like this are DOS2 and Xcom. With DOS2 being Larian's, its methods to me, weren't broken. But as I've been pointing out, just need refinement.

You literally just sound impatient, my dude.


UI should be something you don't notice. If you notice it, there is a problem. There are a lot of elements to the UI in BG 3 which are like this, my biggest desire right now for this game is to have its UI overhauled, from the control scheme, to the hotbar, to the sorting options for the inventory.
Tuco i haven't had any opinions yet on the UI, I've only started with my opinion on how they should refine their group actions and controls. For their UI tho, it is very lack luster. It needs some further refinement.

Coming from DOS2 they had a pretty standard and useful character menu and inventory. I'm sure they are going to polish it up more. And this is feedback to say, keep what was good and make it better.

The worst of the menus so far was the quest logs, its generally just missing a lot of meat and filler space to look more presentable and like a log for a fantasy game. Log entries in general could use much more information. Its looks bad that its a log information for the PC but its just like a sentence or two long.
Originally Posted by YT-Yangbang
You really are so impatient and bothered about moving your 4 units into key positions on the field.


It's not just him alone. While we can't make up here numbers, I'm sure everyone will grow "impatient" sooner or later, IF they play this game a long time.

I had no problems at all first few hours, and found the elasticity simulation shown when splitting one character apart from the rest of the party really funny. I even took the time and played the joining and splitting minigame a few times, and was like a new toy. Could be a standalone game in itself maybe, I don't know. So no hating there.

But then after I had enough of the new toy, and started playing the real game - the Baldur's Gate 3 thing, the UI started to become the #1 enemy quickly. It was about fighting the interface, because have to try multiple times until allows me to split anyone from the party. Then to sort them in the proper order (my character 1st, and 2-3-4 sorted from tankier to squishier), and it's the same thing: elasticity, rubber UI chain mechanics, which every time needs multiple tries until finally allows me to succeed.

Quickly became clear that in this game, I will have to do this "minigame" very frequently. Since I take 1 and go ahead to scout, then move each character 1 by 1 into their best position, before starting any fight. Then I go through a door or have to teleport, or return to camp or many other cases when have to group them again. Then repeat.

The longer I played the game, the more annoying the UI became: because can't do it quick, the enemy moves and there's no pause to waste timer with UI minigames. I played almost 100 hours, or a bit over idk now, and already had enough: this UI system will drive me clinically insane. Luckily I can quit, not addicted or anything.

It's certainly not an efficient system.
It's actually the worse party UI I ever saw in any game. Fun in itself as a minigame, but a pain as a party management tool.

But I don't think we should worry about BG3 more than Larian does. If the UI is fine for them, I don't mind it. Can't help more.
By no means am I saying the current party management system is good. Its a bully to handle as is and yes I agree needs some serious refinement, one of the things being the rubber band effect your companions do when they follow you around. But going off what they had in DOS2 which I felt was good. Was when you entered a immediate battle, you could pre define your fighting formation and your companions would go to their spots. I hope they make that return here.

When engaged in conversation thats going to lead to a battle, you're other companions have complete free reign to move about and position themselves in prep. Makes since as if you were planning to battle a group that wanted to prattle along with conversation. You other teams mates could still move about and ready for a fight.

The linking and grouping mechanic is a absolute pain to mess with currently. The portrait panel positioning is so finicky and yes I agree is not their best item. I doubt its what its gonna be in the end product, as DOS2 had their pretty ok. They just need to expand on it ie. The all break/chain idea i said before.

When you go to break your companions apart in groups. Are you pulling the panel portrait of your character up from the group? I never have to many problems breaking the groups, its sticking then back together that sometimes gets annoying.

I don't follow you on the whole sort them out in proper order from tanks to squishy comment you said. Could you explain that, as your companions get positioned in a fight by you, so idk what you mean by that for order sorting.

Are we advocating to not even want BG3 to not be a turn based game anymore? My comparisons to BG3's UI mostly stem from DOS2. I'm thinking if maybe we're all just not seeing what we want on the same page.
Strongly agree with OP.

About half way through my first play through of existing content, I began separating (unlinking) my stealthiest or most charismatic character and had them do most of the exploration solo, simply because I did not like how the game automatically decided where the other party characters would move/arrange themselves.

In my opinion, Pathfinder: Kingmaker has the best character placement/control system I've played. It is easy to customize where characters should form, and the AI was apt enough to make adjustments to the form when a spacial limitation exists. Furthermore, the PF:KM system was much more lenient in character spacial geography - the buffer between characters/objects is much more fluid, allowing for better movement in confined spaces. Currently in BGIII I find myself using the jump/disengage bonus action far too often for simple movements between avatars that seem obviously accessible (unsure why disengage is a bonus action for all classes to begin with, but that's a separate issue).
Originally Posted by YT-Yangbang

I don't follow you on the whole sort them out in proper order from tanks to squishy comment you said. Could you explain that, as your companions get positioned in a fight by you, so idk what you mean by that for order sorting.

Are we advocating to not even want BG3 to not be a turn based game anymore? My comparisons to BG3's UI mostly stem from DOS2. I'm thinking if maybe we're all just not seeing what we want on the same page.


No, we are not talking about turn based vs. real time with pause modes here, there's a different, huge topic for that.

What I mean by "sort them in the proper order (my character 1st, and 2-3-4 sorted from tankier to squishier)" is that in BG3 your character isn't automatically set all the time as the 1st character in the party UI and every time you separate them, and then group up or they are grouped up by the game, for example when you leave the camp: they end up in a random party order decided by the game and not in the same position I already arranged them before. This is about their order they are shown in the party UI. Same happens in the (parallel) inventory screen, which shows them in random order as well sometimes and there can't even drag to fix it.

This is important because in order to select them, both in party mode and separated, the easiest way is by clicking the F1 key for the first character, F2, F3 and F4 for the others. Selecting with the mouse may take a few tries since the game struggles to recognize correctly what was clicked, same when targeting something. So using the keyboard F1 to F4 shortcuts is the only reliable way to select.
The problem is that F1 always selects the first character in the UI, and I expect that to be always the same character, so I can act quickly.

Many times the enemy is moving around, so I have to issue orders fast, to put them in good positions, before the fight starts. During fights there is no need of quick reactions anymore since it's a turn based game, but outside the fight mode, turn based is off and a reliable way to direct your party members is needed, otherwise you will end up in a bad position at the start of the fight.

Here comes in the "impatience" you mentioned, and why the party management in BG3 is so frustrating, thus making the entire game less fun. BG1 & 2 had a fantastic party management UI: remembered the position of each member and never lost it during rest or entering another instance or anything; you set it once and stayed like that. Same in Dragon Age, Pillars of Eternity and every game I ever played. Even the console focused Dragon Age Inquisition, and clicking on any portrait once, selected it instantly, was no need to use keyboard shortcuts like F1 here. Not even talking about formations, following and so on.

The party UI it's so bad in BG3 that looks like was intentionally made to annoy the players. I just can't believe it that this can go past any programmer by mistake: it's like this by design. Only they know why. What isn't broken, don't try to fix it: every game before had a basic UI that worked great, from 2D to 3D, in every game. There was no need to anything fancy rubber chewing gum effect and aiming for a spot in the Guinness World Records for the worst UI ever made in an RPG game.
I think I have an answer has to why the UI in BG3 is so dreadful.
Larian does not use mouse devices when designing their games. Either design with game-pads, tablets or by voice command??!!
When all finished, they be : <<OH, but we need mouse functionality, uuuh lets see...haha now thats kinda cool, the way it SPRINGS...>>
It is the only logical explanation.
Oh I understand now what you mean by party ordering. Yes thats very important for them to address, assigning order 1 thru 4 to actual characters would make having the hotkeys much more reliable. Having them constantly shift in their order is pretty frustrating, the inconsistency is definitely a flaw. I personally changed the hotkey to cycle thru players to be "tab", makes the game much more smoother to cycle thru characters on the fly. But having the order sorting stay solid is again definitely important for them to add.

For the instance of being outside of combat, im still not following you on how its hard to set up your guy's before a fight? When ambushed, you're ambushed, so the fight begins wither you like it or not. I accept that as a game mechanic. But when I'm setting up the ambush, I think its incredibly easy to find positions that is best for my team. Move them accordingly, watch out for vision cones, take the high ground where possible, and stay in the shadows or out of sight as I move everyone else. The only part that would make it better is the mentioned addition above.

I've never played bg2 and I had to refresh myself on how DA:I looked like in combat. After watching some YouTube videos on both to remember how they play, they aren't even the same category of turn based as BG3 or any of Larian type games. The only other game that I can truly compare to Larian games as far as combat goes and to my gaming experiences, is Xcom. Everyone has a turn and its about strategizing positions, turns, and attacks to come out on top.

Is the point on combat you are trying to make, is to have bg3 characters have the "constant basic attack" and then with freeze play skill uses like bg2 and DA:I?
Originally Posted by YT-Yangbang
I'm still not following you on how its hard to set up your guy's before a fight?


What is "hard" is selecting them quickly. Not really hard, but time consuming: have to play the UI "minigame" and fix the party first, every single time. That means keeping distance from enemy NPC's and doing stuff that needs to be done first, just because the UI is bad, instead playing the game fluently.

For example:
I just left the resting place instance, the camp. In this case the game gives me all 4 characters linked, partied up, and in a "random" order (not in the order I arranged them before entering camp).
That's bad already.

I need to re-arrange them in the "correct" order, and that because the way the selection keys work; I want to select my character, the Ranger, when I press the F1. F2 will be the Fighter. F3 will be the Cleric. F4 the Wizard.
It's already a lot of work to achieve that, but that alone would be fairly easy.

But I also need to take my Ranger alone, to go ahead scouting, and keep the rest of 3 characters linked (so don't have to move them one by one), left behind in a safe spot.

Now if I just drag the Ranger portrait out and unlink it, will be placed in 4th spot and can select it with F4, not F1. I want it to be F1 always, because otherwise I can't just press F1 and give orders, have to check first which is what and then press the correct key, that takes watching & thinking, it's like solving puzzles.

If I try to drag my unlinked Ranger into the first spot while the 3 other characters are linked, the game assumes I want the Ranger to rejoin the party, and won't allow me to take the F1 spot, can try forever, just won't let me. So I must unlink ALL of them first. Then while they are all solo, to drag their portraits around, until they are in the correct order, as I stated above: F1 Ranger, F2 Fighter, F3 Cleric, F4 Wizard. This will take a few tries, the game will fight back, but in the end after some minigame fun, they are in the correct order.

That's not what I wanted, but have to do it his way, in order to advance towards the planned configuration. Now I can drag the Cleric into the Fighter, and have them grouped up together, while my F1, F2, F3, F4 is in correct order. After that I drag the Wizard into them, and finally have a solo Ranger in first spot, ready to go ahead scouting, that can be controlled with F1.

Scouting went well, found out where I will start the next fight, so now I press F2, without the need to look at party UI or think about which key controls what. F2 will lead my 3 party members to a place nearby.
Now I unlink these 3, keeping them in same order, but everyone is unlinked.

Next, depends what is ahead, will start the fight with one of them, let's say with F4 the Wizard, will go close enough but out of vision range or by flanking and cast Sleep on their healer. Or any other character starts, and the others are moved to good spots, after the starting character enters turn based mode. Can't just walk up with a linked party into some ambush.

During fight I can select them easily using F1 to F4, focusing on what I will do next in the fight, instead trying to figure out which F key is my Wizard and which is my Ranger.

After the party UI minigame is solved, the game is "easy". Without this I could move the wrong character to the wrong spot.
The bad news is that I will have to start over all this sorting after every rest and every instance change. That's a lot of times, during a playthrough.


I explained all this for those without early access or those not playing with mouse & keyboard, because it's hard to imagine all these problems without playing it.
Originally Posted by YT-Yangbang

Calm down bro, I'm not trolling you. You really are so impatient and bothered about moving your 4 units into key positions on the field. Each character is not a (trooper name lvl x) that you move en mass.

One of things that make UI good or bad is: how quickly/how many clicks are required to do what I want to do.

Larian’s approach discourages controlling individual units. It inefficient, inaccurate and time consuming to do so, but as you mention possible to do. I am sure Larian has reason to sticking to their system, but what those reasons could be is beyond my comprehension. While I am glad to see Larian listening to feedback, I worry this is one of those things they won’t budge on (and by budge I mean, implement classic, reliable and tested RTS control scheme).
A little gratuitous bump to stress the most serious issue the game has currently : its horrendous control scheme.
Yeah, its really quite painful and the main impediment to my being able to just enjoyably zone out and play for extended periods. Invariably after 30 minutes o\something in the control scheme will frustrate me and I log out of it.

I'd really like to see them address this in a serious way, with a real overhaul complete with some visual elements to distinguish it from the previous control scheme. Like come on guys, just break the Chain already. I know there's pain but...
Don't cha know? Don't cha know?

I'll hold on for one more day
maybe
lol
Not like I needed convincing, but it was made very apparent for me yesterday after a long break, when I launched the game to test my new gaming PC and enjoy the increased performances... And 20 minutes into the session I noticed that I was genuinely annoyed at how moving my party around felt.
No doubt

Seriously, though where is @dotmats when we need him?

like this BG3 music video practically writes itself...

You know, on account of already being written, in brilliant and exacting detail.
Will we never make it to white castle? Like for real?
Come on Larian



they hella took the high ground though right? Like pretty much the whole time lol
@Black_Elk : I really did not have that reference, and would not have gotten it without you dropping the video. Good thing you didn't hold on for one more day. (Well, maybe you did. I'm so used to long rest in BG3 that I no longer see the difference between one day and 10 minutes ... )
I have to say I agree...

In one hand I'm happy we will have a ForgottenRealms rpg where in the combat system uses territorry advantages fially; in other hand a bit feels like the we deprived of the chance to use them with this caracter control.
I'm still really confused there's no keybind for jumping considering how often you do it, but there's a keybind for sneaking confused surely if these things can be keybound a mass unchain/rechain multiple selection of units for movement shouldn't be that wild of a suggestion.

formations as well would be great, instead of having characters move in formation at all times when combat is initiated you can just set a predetermined formation for characters to move into IMO, might seem a bit janky with everyone moving while initiative is rolling but it would alleviate a lot of annoyance that comes with say playing a wizard who's always gonna be on the frontline as player character as you presumably don't want lae'zel initiating all the dialogues that lead straight to combat just to avoid having your wizard be on the frontline when combat starts
Originally Posted by Drath Malorn
@Black_Elk : I really did not have that reference, and would not have gotten it without you dropping the video. Good thing you didn't hold on for one more day. (Well, maybe you did. I'm so used to long rest in BG3 that I no longer see the difference between one day and 10 minutes ... )


@drath malorn : hehe thanks dude! I'm the same, like lets blink and stop time altogether, am I right?

It does get pretty exciting when they finally reach the beach though

My favorite part is when they "form a line" at the end there

Critical Hit lol

But yeah, moving in formation, pretty key
Still no word from Larian regarding this issue I guess?
I 'm not asking for a detailed roadmap how they are going to solve this. Just a word from them if this is something they are going to look in to, or if it's something they don't think needs fixing.
A roadmap would be nice.
Originally Posted by Peranor
Still no word from Larian regarding this issue I guess?
Well, right now they made rather clear that until January we aren't getting word about anything at all.

Still, it comes without saying that I'd love to hear them talk to acknowledge how almost universally disliked their control scheme is.
Even on other communities or watching random youtube videos of people playing the game I keep crossing comments of people who (rightfully) complain about it.

In fact, I just came here to check if there were new replies after reading sarcastic comments about how this control scheme sucks in an italian board I follow and I was browsing minutes ago.

Even on RPG Codex the thread about the game is filled of occasional comments of mockery about the "Larian toilet chain".
Originally Posted by Sharp
UI should be something you don't notice. If you notice it, there is a problem. There are a lot of elements to the UI in BG 3 which are like this, my biggest desire right now for this game is to have its UI overhauled, from the control scheme, to the hotbar, to the sorting options for the inventory.
Same. 100%.
This UI and control scheme is just DoS2, beaten into sort of working for a 5e CRPG. It's the single biggest thing that makes BG3 feel like a DoS2 mod and not a new game designed from the ground up as a 5e CRPG.
Yeah, I seriously hope they improve the movement schematics and such. It should be way easier to select/deselect and move across and switch and... whatever really. Very old games have this nailed down, and yet BG3 isn't there yet. Hope they solve it.
I just wanted to chime in to say that party selection/movement is the literal worst thing about this game. It makes me not want to play it. Everything about it is just so annoying.
Originally Posted by Peranor
Still no word from Larian regarding this issue I guess?
I 'm not asking for a detailed roadmap how they are going to solve this. Just a word from them if this is something they are going to look in to, or if it's something they don't think needs fixing.

It’s the holidays. I think we’ll see more activity once we get past New Years Day.

I also agree the chaining mechanic must go. There are already other methods that are smoother and easier available.
Larian, listen to our prayers.
Well, to mine at least.
+1

The control of the game feels generally.. janky. Clumsy. Not only the chain-group-movement but for me needing to go into the "casting stance" before you can jump/dash/sneak attack/etc feels just clumsy and unintuitive. I think BG3 and the DoS series are the only cRPGs I played that have this weird casting animation between clicking an ability and using it. These issues kind of kill replay value for me (And made the initial playthrough kind of a slog too)
+1 repost support - i think there are alot of other areas of feedback that larian should look at too as bg3 ea continues, but the way the current party/character controls function in game with chain-linking and constant companion movement around the currently selected character, etc. really can be frustrating to use and is only further exacerbated by some other in game controls/mechanics (like the camera or map terrain/layout). tbd if we get to run a party with 6 companions (like the og series), but i would think that the issues inherent using the current party movement controls would only be more glaring with a 6 member party, so i hope that we atleast get some communication from larian regarding their intentions here

+1 ea roadmap or more larian communication - its been stated in this thread and others on the forums, but i think it would benefit both larian and the community if we got some more timely, regular communication regarding the progress of ea from the devs/larian so to better coordinate feedback efforts towards those areas most viable for input/change before the game launches. obvs we just got thru the holiday/year end season, but i would hope the next update/patch is more substantive in this regard
Originally Posted by Tuco
Larian, listen to our prayers.
Well, to mine at least.
I think you would be interested in bringing your "votes" for or against some moments https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=750739#Post750739
This was one of my main issues, I have no idea how or why this design was settled on, but making it awkward to simply move individual members of the party is...bizarre.
Originally Posted by Scribe
This was one of my main issues, I have no idea how or why this design was settled on, but making it awkward to simply move individual members of the party is...bizarre.
I can only assume it started as technical limitation that a smaller indie game like DoS1 didn't have the resources to solve. Larian needs to solve it now though; they're out there saying BG3 is a AAA game, and no self respecting AAA game would leave such an important part of its design so much worse than the genre's decades old standard.
Originally Posted by Mogan
Originally Posted by Scribe
This was one of my main issues, I have no idea how or why this design was settled on, but making it awkward to simply move individual members of the party is...bizarre.
I can only assume it started as technical limitation that a smaller indie game like DoS1 didn't have the resources to solve. Larian needs to solve it now though; they're out there saying BG3 is a AAA game, and no self respecting AAA game would leave such an important part of its design so much worse than the genre's decades old standard.

Just wanted to add that I agree 100%

The chain/unchain system is simply unacceptable on an AAA game and a sequel to a game that did not have this issue - it doesn't add any benefits to party control, and all of it issues as exacerbated by a combination of derpy pathfinding, and no fast and easy way to pause (entering turnbase mode is clunky and terrible).

I can't recall how many times I wanted my party to just stop right where they are and simply can't - and the rest of the party proceeds to circle and dance around the controlled character to flash mob their way into formation.

In a game where terrain has gameplay effects and traps are set by stepping over them, it's a terrible design.
Originally Posted by Topgoon
[quote=Mogan]

Just wanted to add that I agree 100%

The chain/unchain system is simply unacceptable on an AAA game and a sequel to a game that did not have this issue - it doesn't add any benefits to party control, and all of it issues as exacerbated by a combination of derpy pathfinding, and no fast and easy way to pause (entering turnbase mode is clunky and terrible).

I can't recall how many times I wanted my party to just stop right where they are and simply can't - and the rest of the party proceeds to circle and dance around the controlled character to flash mob their way into formation.

In a game where terrain has gameplay effects and traps are set by stepping over them, it's a terrible design.

While going from crate to crate in a room in the blighted village, they ran around like chicken without eggs, then one ran out of the house through one hole in the wall and jumped back in through another. Result of the jump : concentration broken (it was a bless or magic armor spell cast previously)
The number of times I clicked to jump, someone got stuck, I selected them, and everyone else jumped to the other side?

Shameful. :p
I'm so glad to see more and more people recognizing how abysmal the current control scheme is and how much of a priority is to address it to make this game better.

I mean, we have seen across this entire thread and on other forums that the argument isn't controversial at all and the loathe for the chain/unchain system is basically unanimous, but a lot of people kept overlooking it as some minor side issue, when I can't really stress enough how much it manages to single-handedly hinder my enjoyment of the entire game.
I would not be surprised if this chain/unchain system is also one of the invisible reasons why some people have found the combat in BG3 too challenging (which I honestly don't think it is, but I've seen the complaints).

The terrible movement management encourages you to simply move your party forward as a group into encounters in the most vulnerable formation, as opposed to splitting up and scouting ahead, etc. Of course every fight will seem unfair when you start them surrounded and pounded.
Originally Posted by Topgoon
I would not be surprised if this chain/unchain system is also one of the invisible reasons why some people have found the combat in BG3 too challenging (which I honestly don't think it is, but I've seen the complaints).

The terrible movement management encourages you to simply move your party forward as a group into encounters in the most vulnerable formation, as opposed to splitting up and scouting ahead, etc. Of course every fight will seem unfair when you start them surrounded and pounded.

Not sure anyone talked about it in this thread but that's a valid point.

Reading it allow me to realize that it's exactly what I'm doing, even if I don't find the game hard at all (but now I know every Larian's cheats).
Originally Posted by Scribe
The number of times I clicked to jump, someone got stuck, I selected them, and everyone else jumped to the other side?

Shameful. :p

Yeah, this is truly the pinnacle of game design...
Come on Larian, just address this issue already!
I believe that Larian has some emotional attachment to this system. It looks like something you created and deeply believe is good, but everyone says it isn't. And although it isn't a terrible solution, the chain/unchain system is no better than the classic mode (BG1, BG2, Pillars of Eternity, Pathfinder Kingmaker...).

So, Larian needs to give this up and implement a better system (the classic) in which you simply click on someone you want to control or draw a square on the screen to select more than one character. Or select one of them, hold Shift and select the others (Backspace to select the entire group).

Perhaps they can adopt a mix of these two systems where if you select more than one character, it will show a lock for you to "link" the characters together.

And the game really needs Formation Options because it's frustrating to see your group taking strange positions on the battlefield before each fight.
Originally Posted by Gustavo R
I believe that Larian has some emotional attachment to this system. It looks like something you created and deeply believe is good, but everyone says it isn't. And although it isn't a terrible solution, the chain/unchain system is no better than the classic mode (BG1, BG2, Pillars of Eternity, Pathfinder Kingmaker...).

So, Larian needs to give this up and implement a better system (the classic) in which you simply click on someone you want to control or draw a square on the screen to select more than one character. Or select one of them, hold Shift and select the others (Backspace to select the entire group).

Perhaps they can adopt a mix of these two systems where if you select more than one character, it will show a lock for you to "link" the characters together.

And the game really needs Formation Options because it's frustrating to see your group taking strange positions on the battlefield before each fight.

Agreed, though personally I find the current party control system terrible, in every sense. Has there been any acknowledgement by Larian of the feedback on party movement? Surely they can't stick with this system? They seemed to act fairly quickly on the feedback about the companions but I am not aware of any comment on this feedback.

I would hate to think that that their pride or insistence on their vision for BG3 would get in the way of implementing a superior party movement system, even if the basics were devised in a previous game over 20 years ago. As they say, if it ain't broke don't fix it.
Larian aren't particularly good at self-innovation. Just look at their inventory problems, they've been largely the same since the first divinity game released ages ago.
Originally Posted by Dexai
Larian aren't particularly good at self-innovation. Just look at their inventory problems, they've been largely the same since the first divinity game released ages ago.

That does not fill me with much hope that other issues will be rectified either, in that case. Have they bitten off more than they can chew with this game?
Originally Posted by Gustavo R
I believe that Larian has some emotional attachment to this system. It looks like something you created and deeply believe is good, but everyone says it isn't. And although it isn't a terrible solution, the chain/unchain system is no better than the classic mode (BG1, BG2, Pillars of Eternity, Pathfinder Kingmaker...).

So, Larian needs to give this up and implement a better system (the classic) in which you simply click on someone you want to control or draw a square on the screen to select more than one character. Or select one of them, hold Shift and select the others (Backspace to select the entire group).

Perhaps they can adopt a mix of these two systems where if you select more than one character, it will show a lock for you to "link" the characters together.

And the game really needs Formation Options because it's frustrating to see your group taking strange positions on the battlefield before each fight.
I'd be incline to agree with everything, except the "it isn't a terrible solution" part. Because I genuinely think it is.
And yes, following up what Etruscan said, I share the concern about how Larian has yet to even publicly acknowledge the criticism in that sense, let alone address it.

EDIT - Fun fact: this is now the second thread in this entire section for number of replies and the first by a significant margin for number of views. Kinda hard to pretend to not notice the criticism on this specific matter at this point.
I dont even know how this could be a debate.

The current system is indefensible. This issue was solved in BG1, at least in comparison to what we have now. Thats 1998 for those keeping track. 23 years of mechanics and game design have lead to this?
I’m convinced it’s the way it is now because it’s a mindset thing. They want you to focus on your character and the ‘companions’ are just that, they follow your lead. Like Dragon Age, Mass Effect, Dragon’s Dogma etc. They want it to be less like an RTS when you’re not in combat, more like an adventure RPG game. Until you get to combat then it becomes a tactics game. The problem is how poorly it’s been implemented from a pathfinding and AI standpoint.

It might also be partly to do with co-op play; with only one or two characters to control, the current system works well enough.

I get the feeling they’d rather keep working on their AI than change direction (as they’ve done with the group jumping), however considering they’re now dealing with the BG franchise and how so many folk in here want it to emulate typical crpgs, now might be the time to reconsider.
Originally Posted by LukasPrism
I’m convinced it’s the way it is now because it’s a mindset thing. They want you to focus on your character and the ‘companions’ are just that, they follow your lead. Like Dragon Age, Mass Effect, Dragon’s Dogma etc. They want it to be less like an RTS when you’re not in combat, more like an adventure RPG game. Until you get to combat then it becomes a tactics game. The problem is how poorly it’s been implemented from a pathfinding and AI standpoint.

It might also be partly to do with co-op play; with only one or two characters to control, the current system works well enough.

I get the feeling they’d rather keep working on their AI than change direction (as they’ve done with the group jumping), however considering they’re now dealing with the BG franchise and how so many folk in here want it to emulate typical crpgs, now might be the time to reconsider.

I truly hope that is not the case. If the game is being designed primarily with co-op (and/or a console port) in mind, then it would seem things will not change in this respect which for me would be a real shame. Would like to know the percentage breakdown of who plays single player, co-op, etc. I would assume the vast majority would be single player?
Yeah I just don't understand this whole Dungeons & Double Dragon co-op emphasis.

Compromising the single player experience to accommodate a better co-op experience just seems like a bad plan. Especially since its not really necessary. The old approach to a multi-player BG game worked perfectly well, e.g. dividing control of the party by however many players you had. But that doesn't work when the whole scheme is based on controlling only one character at a time, with everyone else toggled into a follower/henchman mode.

I also think the appeal to more fidelity with the table top experience which I've heard floated around, as a way to excuse the slower play pace or wonky controls is also kind of curious, since that's not really what made the BG games successful anyway. Replaying the old games again, its hard to miss just how different the gameplay and overall play pace feel in this new one.

I don't think BG1 or BG2 feel anything like a table top campaign to be honest, at least in terms of the mechanics and overall thrust of the control scheme. It was more of an action RTS game, with a Forgotten Realms RPG presentation. The play pace was fast, and most of the combats and such resolved with melee (even from the non-warrior types) more often than not. Sure BG was kind of ridiculous with the paws of the cheetah, or the buff and haste for every encounter, but the contrast here is still pretty marked. There are other games they could have made a sequel for, that took a different approach, more in line with what they're giving us here. This game plays more like Kotor, or Neverwinter Nights or Dragon Age or even Skyrim, than it does BG1/2, despite being turn based, which is a little odd. But at least the control scheme of those games was pretty straight forward in terms of what it was trying to do, since control of the single PC in a more 3D FPS environment is well established for RPGs of that type.

BG3 right now reminds me of games like Master of Orion 3, or Zelda II: the Adventure of Link, or Dragon Age 2. Sequels where the designers opted to throw out a lot of core aspects in the gameplay that made their direct predecessors successful, in order to try some new thing. But where the new game doesn't fit the same mold, and doesn't work so well as a result. Like I'm sure sure somebody thought doing Zelda II as a side scroller to make it more like Super Mario Bros rather than the original Zelda would be a great idea, but yeah, not so much. I think Larian's situation has definitely been complicated by their Divinity titles, since clearly they wanted BG3 to appeal to the same audience as a crossover. But it just feels like the gameplay is more that, than it is a serious homage to the gameplay of the franchise they are carrying now.

I just hope they swing for the fences, and actually rework the party controls so its more in keeping with the BG feel and expectations. They have time to fix this stuff, and EA would give them an opportunity to try, but what we haven't heard anything about it from the devs. I haven't heard anyone chime here to say that they actually prefer what we have now, so you'd think changing it might be something they'd want to explore?
Originally Posted by LukasPrism
I’m convinced it’s the way it is now because it’s a mindset thing. They want you to focus on your character and the ‘companions’ are just that, they follow your lead. Like Dragon Age, Mass Effect, Dragon’s Dogma etc.
Which, conversely, is a COMPLETE mismatch with the fact that your companions can also start conversations in your place, even when you don't want them to (which is most of the times, let's be real).

But the worst thing about this is that they could easily have both.
All it needs is a "everyone follow" toggle button as an optional feature.

Originally Posted by Black_Elk
I haven't heard anyone chime here to say that they actually prefer what we have now, so you'd think changing it might be something they'd want to explore?

As I said more than once, this one may very well be one of the LEAST divisive topics in this entire forum (and among the entire community, really. Be it on Steam, reddit or Youtube commentary).

You could probably find more people willing to defend a Ronald McDonald costume as default outfit for Astarion than people willing to genuinely praise the chain/unchain system.
Even the incredibly rare attempts to defend it so far never went past a lukewarm, timid "Yeah, IT SUCKS, but maybe with some changes...".
I really hope we get some official response. This system is extremely poor.
I don't see that as a problem. They just need to add the ability selection all or a few squad members. However, mostly I didn't have any problems with the chain. Quite a classic system, as in poe, even seems inconvenient to me. Also my companions for the most part avoided the "dangerous" places, not counting the traps, because the traps need to be detected.

For me, the main problem is stealth. I'm tired of sending each character to stealth, the same as it was with jumps, well, they sort of solved the problem with jumps.

So the chain itself can not be removed, they just need to add the ability to select.
Originally Posted by Nyloth
I don't see that as a problem. They just need to add the ability selection all or a few squad members.
Well, what a bizarre thing to say. The problem is PRECISELY that they "need to add it" because it's not there.
The current (and incredibly shitty) control scheme always allows the player to control only one single character no matter what.

Quote
For me, the main problem is stealth. I'm tired of sending each character to stealth
But that's just a symptom of how the (again, incredibly shitty) system works: since it doesn't allow multiple selection, it also doesn't allow to give commands to a specific subset of units.
Even if they "fixed" it by making that the stealth toggle apply to everyone at the same time, it would STILL be a lousy solution, because the issue is precisely that the player may not want to necessarily extend a command to a full party, only to a selected part of it.

Quote
the same as it was with jumps, well, they sort of solved the problem with jumps.
That was a lousy fix as well, since, sure, autofollow on jump is mostly better than "do it manually for each one", but still leagues behind the ideal scenario of "Let me choose who needs to jump and who doesn't".


Quote
So the chain itself can not be removed, they just need to add the ability to select.
"Can not"? Says who?
Also, the entire point of the chain/unchain system is that the game in its current form doesn't want to give the player the "ability to select" [more than one unit]. Which makes it the core of the issue.
Originally Posted by Tuco
"Can not"? Says who?

LUL English is not my native language, stop bully me. I mean, for me, the problem is not in the chain itself. It is not necessary remove... idk

Originally Posted by Tuco
"Let me choose who needs to jump and who doesn't".

You can separate the characters so that you can choose who to jump and who not to jump. It's actually not very difficult. I'm just not interested in constantly separating characters and sending them to different points outside of combat. Well I mean not in fight.

Originally Posted by Tuco
control only one single character

I'm sure in other games, you're essentially controlling only 1 character. Selection works essentially the same as a chain if you want to control 2-3 characters. If I need only 2 characters to go somewhere, then I calmly separate the two of them. Only "general features" like stealth don't work. That's what I don't like.
Originally Posted by Nyloth
You can separate the characters so that you can choose who to jump and who not to jump. It's actually not very difficult.
Sure, it's also actually very slow and convoluted to do, which once again is precisely the problem.

Originally Posted by Nyloth
I'm sure in other games, you're essentially controlling only 1 character.
Well, you'd be wrong there.
To select and move 1 character in BG3 (or DoS1/2) you have to make 3 click and drag... Probably more because it won't work each time.

I guess that's enough to understand how bad this chain is.

The game would be WAY more fluent and user friendly with a classic system. I hope they will put their pride aside because their BG3 deserve the best.
Originally Posted by Nyloth
Originally Posted by Tuco
"Can not"? Says who?

LUL English is not my native language, stop bully me. I mean, for me, the problem is not in the chain itself. It is not necessary remove... idk

Originally Posted by Tuco
"Let me choose who needs to jump and who doesn't".

You can separate the characters so that you can choose who to jump and who not to jump. It's actually not very difficult. I'm just not interested in constantly separating characters and sending them to different points outside of combat. Well I mean not in fight.

Originally Posted by Tuco
control only one single character

I'm sure in other games, you're essentially controlling only 1 character. Selection works essentially the same as a chain if you want to control 2-3 characters. If I need only 2 characters to go somewhere, then I calmly separate the two of them. Only "general features" like stealth don't work. That's what I don't like.
The problem with the current system is that you can only select and issue commands to a single character at a time. In games like Baldur's Gate 1 and 2, you can select any number of characters in your party at once and issue the same command to all selected characters at once.

If BG3 allowed for classic RTS controls, the way basically every other CRPG for the last 20 years has, your problem of issuing the sneak command would be solved, because you'd only need to drag a box around your party (or press the Select All button) and then click sneak, and every character would start sneaking. Same with movement and jump commands. Splitting the party up wouldn't need to involve dragging portraits off of or on to a dumb chain system, you would simple select the characters you want to go one way, and issue that command.

The fact of the matter is that classic CRPG controls are just faster, easier, and more user friendly than Larian's portrait chain system. Which is why there are 9 pages here of people in nearly unanimous agreement that BG3's controls suck.
How can literally anyone defend this system when other games prove how much better other systems are?
I feel like the most solid defence anyone has come up with for the current movement system is that it's salvageable or they offer suggestions for improvement. Which is not great considering they've used this system for two other games at this point. I don't think I've seen anyone really give a reason that this system is actually better than the typical system used for cRPGs in any meaningful capacity. This really does seem to be the one point where everyone more or less agrees-the big divide is people who think it's totally intolerable and people who say that it just needs tweaking to some extent.
Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
I feel like the most solid defence anyone has come up with for the current movement system is that it's salvageable or they offer suggestions for improvement. Which is not great considering they've used this system for two other games at this point. I don't think I've seen anyone really give a reason that this system is actually better than the typical system used for cRPGs in any meaningful capacity. This really does seem to be the one point where everyone more or less agrees-the big divide is people who think it's totally intolerable and people who say that it just needs tweaking to some extent.
Yeah, I've been saying this for a while: there are basically no fans of this system.
Even in the best case scenarios, there's a (incredibly narrow) minority of people who seem to think it could stop being completely shit IF given a few meaningful changes.
Not exactly the warmest and most flattering endorsement.

And that's ignoring how often these rare "defenders" seem to be among the people who simply has poor familiarity with the genre and the better alternatives out there.
Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
I feel like the most solid defence anyone has come up with for the current movement system is that it's salvageable or they offer suggestions for improvement. Which is not great considering they've used this system for two other games at this point. I don't think I've seen anyone really give a reason that this system is actually better than the typical system used for cRPGs in any meaningful capacity. This really does seem to be the one point where everyone more or less agrees-the big divide is people who think it's totally intolerable and people who say that it just needs tweaking to some extent.
Yeah, I've been saying this for a while: there are basically no fans of this system.
Even in the best case scenarios, there's a (incredibly narrow) minority of people who seem to think it could stop being completely shit IF given a few meaningful changes.
Not exactly the warmest and most flattering endorsement.

And that's ignoring how often these rare "defenders" seem to be among the people who simply has poor familiarity with the genre and the better alternatives out there.

No? I've played a lot of games of this genre. I first saw this system in DOS2, and it was really unusual and uncomfortable for me after other games. BUT after DOS2, it seems quite normal for me. Now it does not make me angry, I know how to use this system, I just think that it needs to be supplemented. I don't consider it something deadly terrible for the game. It can be better ofc BUT...

...DOS2 still one of my favorite games, even it have this system.

Also, other games had an active tactical pause system, and DOS2 had a different system, also very unusual. After DOS, I don't like active tactical pause system. Right now it's too fast for me and looks like a slideshow. So it's not about how much experience you have in the genre. Maybe it's about how well you adapt.
Originally Posted by Nyloth
No? I've played a lot of games of this genre.
Well, yes, actually?
You already proved in your previous posts to have a poor understanding about the limitations of the very system you are defending.
Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by Nyloth
No? I've played a lot of games of this genre.
Well, yes, actually?


You already proved in your previous posts to have a poor understanding about the limitations of the very system you are defending.

No, I just don't know english very well, so I can't explain it to you. Btw you are quite aggressive.
Considering something is not deadly terrible doesn't mean it can't be strongly improved because it's unconfortable.

Oh wait... That's exactly what you said.

How could anyone think that players should adapt themselves to an unconfortable system instead of thinking that a bad system should be adapted to be more confortable ?

Not sure anyone would love Larian's games less with something more confortable, more user friendly, more fluent, and faster... (Less tedious, less buggy,...)
I guess I could say that people would enjoy them even more...
One can be comfortable with a system, without realizing its failings.

There are many many things in life we do because we are used to it, not because its the correct or optimal way.

The movement system in this game is actually bad, it really is.
With the amount of money involved now, and probably later, - and this title - yes, they should do their best to give to us the best system possible... :
it is a Responsability. Being Responsible.
This is the way. And the stuff of legend.
Originally Posted by Nyloth
Btw you are quite aggressive.
I agree. Tuco, please cut out the confrontational tone.
Originally Posted by Nyloth
Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by Nyloth
No? I've played a lot of games of this genre.
Well, yes, actually?


You already proved in your previous posts to have a poor understanding about the limitations of the very system you are defending.

No, I just don't know english very well, so I can't explain it to you. Btw you are quite aggressive.
From some previous posts I believe we (you and me) have the same native language (Russian). So feel free to ask me for help with translation.
Originally Posted by Sadurian
Originally Posted by Nyloth
Btw you are quite aggressive.
I agree. Tuco, please cut out the confrontational tone.
I have no idea of what you're talking aobut.
Just because I'm having a discussion about the merits of what someone said it doesn't mean there's animosity behind it.
This particular system is a bit cumbersome in some ways but I’m used to it and don’t care if they change it. It accomplishes what it needs to without me having to worry about accidentally selecting characters I don’t want selected, though I agree it isn’t fast at all.

However, this looks like a decent thread to mention the AI issues I’ve been having with it. Enemies appear to think unlinked characters are not in the same fight, even though all characters are shown in the same initiative order, causing them to prefer outright killing unconscious characters rather than attack others that can fight back.
+1, Would be great if someone from Larian team addressed the issue. Nothing major, just that they are aware of the problem and are working on it.
I finished testing Early Access, and frankly the party UI will make me think twice before installing this game again, if the UI remains so cumbersome as it is now.
The game has flaws of course, many things can be improved as always, but the state of the party UI is simply at an unacceptable level for a modern game, when 20+ year old games have it perfectly, BG 1 & 2 among them.

Was fun playing it a while, but the party UI kills every desire to play it again.
Originally Posted by LoneSky
I finished testing Early Access, and frankly the party UI will make me think twice before installing this game again, if the UI remains so cumbersome as it is now.
The game has flaws of course, many things can be improved as always, but the state of the party UI is simply at an unacceptable level for a modern game, when 20+ year old games have it perfectly, BG 1 & 2 among them.

Was fun playing it a while, but the party UI kills every desire to play it again.
The problem with the UI is that it wasn't designed for D&D, it was designed for DoS and then modded so it sort of works for D&D. That's BG3 in the nutshell, really. : \
The chaining system would be equally dreadful regardless of whether it was DoS or is a DnD game. System has absolutely nothing to do with it.
I really hope someone at Larian takes notice of this thread. Forum members can disagree on nearly every issue from the value of alignment to the best DnD edition but nearly everyone agrees that the chaining system is awful.
Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
I really hope someone at Larian takes notice of this thread. Forum members can disagree on nearly every issue from the value of alignment to the best DnD edition but nearly everyone agrees that the chaining system is awful.
+1 tbh im kinda surprised that it hasnt already been pinned or merged into a mega-thread seeing as this one is 23 pages already and there are other smaller, ancillary threads that also critique and provide feedback on the way party movement is handled in bg3, but idk - it may get more views and stay more focused in 'suggestions & feedback'
Originally Posted by nation
Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
I really hope someone at Larian takes notice of this thread. Forum members can disagree on nearly every issue from the value of alignment to the best DnD edition but nearly everyone agrees that the chaining system is awful.
+1 tbh im kinda surprised that it hasnt already been pinned or merged into a mega-thread seeing as this one is 23 pages already and there are other smaller, ancillary threads that also critique and provide feedback on the way party movement is handled in bg3, but idk - it may get more views and stay more focused in 'suggestions & feedback'

Tuco keeps bumping this post, he’s very passionate about it. Hopefully it’s working, it would be great to at least have some acknowledgment from Larian.
Originally Posted by nation
+1 tbh im kinda surprised that it hasnt already been pinned or merged into a mega-thread seeing as this one is 23 pages already and there are other smaller, ancillary threads that also critique and provide feedback on the way party movement is handled in bg3, but idk - it may get more views and stay more focused in 'suggestions & feedback'
I've been told by the moderation repeatedly that it was going to be added to the "mega compendium thread", to the mega-threads subforum, etc. since this was barely a couple of pages long, but it never happened.
Honestly at some point I even stopped caring. Not even that confident it would boost the visibility of the issue in any meaningful way, and frankly if Larian will keep ignoring the issue it's going to be because they just want to, not because they didn't catch notice of the general feedback around it.

Of course, that doesn't mean I will ever stop pointing out at every chance how the current system simply BLOWS, because, as LukasPrism pointed, I am indeed fairly passionate about the topic.
More specifically, while I have my other constellation of minor complaints and grievances with the current state of this alpha, this is the closes thing to be a complete "deal breaker" for me. An aspect so genuinely and irredeemably bad that it affects my desire to invest time with the game in general.
Originally Posted by Dexai
The chaining system would be equally dreadful regardless of whether it was DoS or is a DnD game. System has absolutely nothing to do with it.
Oh, for sure. The portrait chain sucks. The entirely system where you can select on a single character at a time sucks. The character, inventory, and merchant screens are bad. All this was bad in DoS as well, but it's even worse in BG3 because Larian hasn't designed NEW systems specifically for the needs of a D&D CRPG, they've just modded DoS's to sort of work.
If BG3 was a fan mod for DoS2, it'd be some amazing work. As a $60 AAA game, it's pretty weak sauce right now.
Originally Posted by Tuco
Of course, that doesn't mean I will ever stop pointing out at every chance how the current system simply BLOWS, because, as LukasPrism pointed, I am indeed fairly passionate about the topic.
More specifically, while I have my other constellation of minor complaints and grievances with the current state of this alpha, this is the closes thing to be a complete "deal breaker" for me. An aspect so genuinely and irredeemably bad that it affects my desire to invest time with the game in general.

Tuco, I always have a hard time understanding what you are trying to say, can you repeat that without using euphemisms? wink
Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
Tuco, I always have a hard time understanding what you are trying to say, can you repeat that without using euphemisms? wink
If it's a stealth complaint about how vocal I am against this stuff, I'll tell you upfront that I regret nothing.
It wasn’t a stealth complaint as the emoticon should have made clear. Obviously we are the same side of this issue. Takes all sorts. You’ve got a pugilistic style but I tend to take that with grain of salt. It made me smile and I intended to communicate that.
Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
You’ve got a pugilistic style but I tend to take that with grain of salt. It made me smile and I intended to communicate that.
Well, not sure what you mean with this but I DO manage a boxing gym for a living, after all.
Or I should probably say I did, given it's been close for the last three months because of COVID shenanigans that are going to be my ruin.

Also, I was just joking.
Originally Posted by Tuco
Also, I was just joking.

Should have realized smile God I hate this virus I hope you can recover once things get back to normal. Wish I could do more than wish . . .

Also, This chaining system is really bad.
Considering the overwhelming amount of negative feedback Larians gotten regarding party movement and management, both in this thread but also countless others on different platforms. And we still haven't heard a peep from them. I'm starting to think this is Larian right now

[Linked Image from mvcommunitycovenant.com]
Another day, another +1
Originally Posted by Peranor
Considering the overwhelming amount of negative feedback Larians gotten regarding party movement and management, both in this thread but also countless others on different platforms. And we still haven't heard a peep from them. I'm starting to think this is Larian right now

[Linked Image from mvcommunitycovenant.com]

100%

The issues that are basically understood to be accepted at this point with no feedback from Larian at all? Brutal...
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